My wife is not only sexy and brilliant, but also a pretty patient woman. She puts up with me checking out Pickup Artist sites like Roissy Citizen Renegade Heartiste, and dating sites like Hooking Up Smart. She understands and supports what I’m doing with this blog, and knows how those sites fit into the larger picture. We happen to have just had a discussion on exactly this topic. I had to chuckle when I learned that what really bothers her is that I call myself a Beta. This really ticks her off. I don’t know how to say this without sounding like I’m bragging, but she is adamant that I’m alpha.
I tried explaining that I didn’t define the terms, and that I’m just following Citizen Renegade’s definition of Alpha. But even after I defined the terms, she still wasn’t happy. And it wasn’t that she wanted to think of me as a Pickup Artist who would have affairs on her (2 affair min to qualify as lesser alpha). This is a good thing, because I’m old enough to know for sure that I’m not that guy.
None of it made sense to her until I remembered a fantastic new show we watched last night called Man Woman Wild. Remember the amazingly cool guy on the show last night? He’s Beta.
Click to see
If you don’t believe me, cross check CR’s definition of Alpha linked above with the show description and tell me this guy isn’t a Greater Beta:
Mykel Hawke is a former Special Forces survival expert. His wife, Ruth England, is a TV journalist. Together, they take on some of the most forbidding and remote locations in the world. Dropped into each spot with only a knife and the clothes on their backs, they must survive as a team for four days and nights. As they test their will and their marriage, the two find common ground standing up to nature as husband and wife in the wildest places on Earth.
I know what you are thinking: What a loser! The guy does stuff with his wife! And they find common ground! Doesn’t he know women are only good for a pump and dump? This guy is soo beta.
And you are right. Except for the loser part and the whole pump and dump thing. And the fact that I feel that way is what proves that I am Beta.
Part of the problem is the way CR views the world. To him anyone who doesn’t share his values is less of a man. I disagree but at the same time acknowledge that in his area of expertise he has something to teach. Fortunately he has put his definition in print so we can clarify what type of man is what. And from the point of view of general attractiveness to women, I think he is right. Like it or not, CR’s definition of Alpha is what a very large percentage of women are subconsciously looking for.
And if they are ruled by their subconscious, they will get what it is looking for. But being ruled by animal instinct isn’t always all it is cracked up to be. Sometimes our subconscious makes choices that our conscious self finds downright difficult to live with. This is for example why most men don’t murder, rape, etc. We all have those instincts from evolution, but somehow most of us manage to stay out of trouble. Weird, isn’t it?
Please don’t misunderstand. I’m not saying women should prefer Betas over Alphas, or that Alphas should change who they are. My goal isn’t to shame anyone into changing or choosing something they don’t want. My goal is for you to have a good life, however you choose to define that. So be who you are and choose what you want. Just make sure what you choose is actually what you want.
Click to see
So if you prefer Alpha, don’t feel guilty for not wanting to be with a man like him. Sure you would probably not even notice him at the bar, but he’s doing just fine as a Beta and not on the market anyway. As I said in another post, no need to settle.
If you are interested in more about the show and what a Greater Beta looks like you can see the main promo. I also liked the clip titled Fire, and my favorite is A Meal and a Place to Eat It. Unfortunately I couldn’t find a clip of the scene we saw last night where he caught a medium sized crocodile with his bare hands so they could eat it.
This is an interesting post, and I see the point you are making.
However I don’t know if Roissy quite says women are only good for a pump & dump, certainly although he is clearly not into lifetime committment he appears to have had a few LTRs (although the question of fidelity within same is less clear).
The whole issue of the definition of alpha male is a very vexed, and fraught one. My understanding was that it meant “highly attractive to women”. I know guys in committed relationships who would have satisfied this definition before the relationship commenced and continue to satisfy it during the relationship without being unfaithful. I agree that many women are attracted to men who are bad for them but I do not think in most cases that these are the only type of men that these women are capable of being attracted to – I think that a lot of women select cads not knowing that they are cads.
Thanks for the comment.
I didn’t ascribe the pump and dump thought to Roissy. More like the chorus. To be specific, I ascribed the thought to you, but we both know that isn’t accurate.
I think that a lot of women select cads not knowing that they are cads
Yup. Over, and over, and over… 🙂 My roommate in college was a natural PUA, so I may be slightly cynical. But even without that, I think this is a cop-out. A bit like getting drunk with the unadmitted plan of making the bad choice you really wanted to make all along. As a good rule of thumb, if the guy sweeps you off your feet from minute one, knows exactly what to say and always makes you feel that special way; he’s a cad.
Likewise I would say to guys: If she is a knockout, interested in you when other women her rank aren’t, and wants to take you into the back room and do unspeakable acts you always wished a woman would do; grab your wallet and get a shot of penicillin. This probably isn’t the dream wife you have been looking for.
Roissy probably best explains the Alpha Trait game approach and attraction and that is very useful and immediately helpful to those starting to learn Game. However the limitation of Roissy is that is essentially all he ever does describe.
He fails to see any good in the Beta Traits when quite clearly women do want to build relationships with men with Beta Traits because he is locked into a vision of Alpha being good and Beta being bad.
For a LTR and Marriage you clearly need to bring some combination of Alpha and Beta to the table. My long post on this is at http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/01/little-more-on-alpha-and-beta-male.html
That blog entry of yours you link to is outstanding by the way. Helped me a great deal.
I think the problem is a lot of young people probably buy into CRs description, even if they haven’t seen his blog. So a young girl just starting out will be tempted to follow her animal side and get her choice on. All fine by me, but I just think she might want to run that past the rational side which will live with the results of her choices.
I chose this guy because he is very cool and not the nerdy stereotype most unconsciously think of when they think Beta. While I’m sure he always did fine with the ladies, I’m guessing he wasn’t the aggressive guy at the bar/keg party that young women sometimes latch on to as the pinnacle of “hot” or “cute”. He probably was for a few women he was genuinely interested in, but numbers wise that isn’t the data these women are soaking in. In other words, I think CR is right in that respect.
Great post, Dalrock. You and Athol are two voices of reason in a sea of men who seemingly DO NOT WANT to have this conversation. It’s ironic, because if men who naturally possess positive “beta” traits could embrace them, rather than starting from scratch, they would find it much easier to add Game concepts in a way that is congruent with their nature. It’s not possible to erase yourself and start again. When I watch Mystery in videos and on TV talk shows, I’m actually struck by how beta he is. He’s really just a big, lanky lapdog. He made this video about his daughter:
Yes, it’s pretty goofy, and Roissy wrote an absolutely scathing post about it. But he has something Roissy will never have in his life: love and progeny.
It’s because he was one of the earliest bloggers on Game and as such he has framed the conversation. You don’t always have to be good, or even right, sometimes you just have to make the first move to win the game.
Roissy’s stuff does work perfectly fine for hook ups etc though, which is all he wants so there’s no problem for him.
You keep flattering me Susan, I’ve told you I’m not giving out my phone number. 😉
You have a great deal more knowledge and insight into that area than I do. But I think we agree that CR’s definition is pretty close to mainstream thought.
I think part of it is the bulk of the bad behaviors and thought patterns are coming from the beta side, so telling someone they are “acting beta” is shorthand for stop being such a loser. In that context it makes sense, but I think in the larger context that is a real problem. Part of my intent with this post was to get people to challenge their concepts of alpha and beta and which was better.
BTW, the guy I referenced in the blog has what looks to me like a great example of married man game. If you haven’t already checked out the clips I linked to I highly suggest it. Especially the last one. This guy’s frame is incredible, and the way he leads her looks perfect to my uneducated eye. Maybe there is some good fodder for your blog there.
Thanks Susan!
You have me thinking with your analysis. I didn’t know Mystery was so Beta naturally. Makes some sense that an analytical guy would be the one to formalize the process though.
But how should natural beta’s beef themselves up? I guess the stock answer is learn game. Part of me thinks the first step is deprogramming from feminism, which I guess game really is. I think another thing would be to embrace traditional manly activities. The more it makes the ladies of polite society gasp the better I would say, so long as it isn’t immoral or illegal. They could ease into manliness by learning how to tune up a car, do carpentry, etc.
Then once they built up some self esteem try their hand at big game hunting. If that is too much for them, at least make it a point to go to a manly stream, catch a fish, and clean, cook, and eat it on the spot (with their manly knife). There is something powerful about literally understanding where you sit on the food chain. From what I understand that is pretty close to what they call “inner game”. Are you a predator, or food?
Hey Dalrock.
Excellent post! I’m really zonked as I spent much of my weekend in the hospital with my mother, but I have to comment.
You said, “I had to chuckle when I learned that what really bothers her is that I call myself a Beta. This really ticks her off. I don’t know how to say this without sounding like I’m bragging, but she is adamant that I’m alpha.”
I don’t blame her. It pisses me off too when over at CR, I hear the guys who are doing the heavy lifting of society insulted as Beta. Even if you accept the rating system, which I find dehumanizing, you have to admit that no matter how you sliced it, as long as B comes after A, Beta means” less than.”
Nonetheless, CR is stimulating if nothing else and has gotten me thinking (especially in the light of Jabberwocky’s grilling me that first time I posted as to what my husband was)) about why women are attracted to alphas. As I look at what attracted my to my husband, this is what I come with.
My husband is no cocksman; he lacks even the requisite two extramarital affairs needed for lesser Alpha-hood–and when you consider that he’s had nearly 21 years to realize that great accomplishment, he’s a loser indeed. When you consider how far my market value, low enough at the time he married me at my even then advanced age, has dropped, he really should be moving on. Yet he hasn’t. How beta!
OTOH, my DH is pretty good at manipulating the environment so that we all have a pretty good life. He has quadrupled his income since the boys came along; that’s probably equivalent to killing a mammoth or two. He is an upper level exective, which is equivalent to being a silverback alpha ape. Socially, he is Vox Day’s Sigma–the guy who wins the social game by refusing to play, the guy who is contemptuous of attention-seeking Alphas. He’s the guy who women want to be with and man want to be like–and he doesn’t even try. That’s all alpha at CR, right? While Vox Day sees Sigma as a separate category; CR would say it’s an Alpha sub-type.
So what separates an Alpha from a Beta? You said it, “But being ruled by animal instinct isn’t always all it is cracked up to be. Sometimes our subconscious makes choices that our conscious self finds downright difficult to live with. This is for example why most men don’t murder, rape, etc. We all have those instincts from evolution, but somehow most of us manage to stay out of trouble.” Sometimes all that separates Alpha from Beta is conscience–not greater masculinity or a higher T-level. Other times, the factor that separates them is bitterness/vengence. I won’t name names, but we all know which guys at CR have an “I used to be a married chump, but she done me wrong, so I learned game and became Alpha” story.
So, there isn’t much difference between Alpha and Greater Beta. A great Beta is a preety cool and powerful guy who keeps it zipped.
That brings us back to the question of why women supposedly love Alphas. Alphas, we ae told, have the manly power to provide, protect and manipulate the world to make things go it the direction of their many progeny. But they also have some extemely negative traits that endanger their progeny. (An Alpha may spread more seed, but if he doesn’t stick around to nurture and protect it, the future of those kids is very insecure. Think of what male lions do and how similar it is to the fate of children of single mothers when a new guy comes along.) Young, inexperienced, or stupid women confuse Alpha shenanigans with the real deal of being able to protect and provide. They see the power of the Alpha male, but assume that the instability has to come with it. Because they see the sizzle, they think there must be a steak. (Game essentially sells the sizzle.) The more reliable Beta or Sigma is less flashy, so he looks less powerful to the inexperienced eye. The Alpha OTOH appears to be king. But, maybe that’s nature’s way of making keeping the incidence of Alpha genes low. It’s a high risk gene attractive to less intelligent and stable mothers. The children of Alphas and stupid women are less successful from an evolutionary point of view than those of Betas. That’s why there are more Betas in the world than Alphas.
So, I’d say that guys like Hawke, my DH and you are alpha-enough, but then again, I’m a smart woman with 2 special-K kids.
I find Mystery extremely unattractive and downright goofy-looking. His little song for his daughter is basically his pick-up routine set to music and seems like a really unhealthy way for a dad to relate to daughter.
“For a LTR and Marriage you clearly need to bring some combination of Alpha and Beta to the table. ”
Exactly!!
And Dalrock, one more thing about this Hawke guy. If my husband were to drop dead tomorrow (and yes, I know how you hate that phrase ;-), I’d do him. The look on his wife’s face pre-selects him.
Wonder if he hunts cougar?
You crack me up J.
I do hate that. How about “If my husband got flighty tomorrow and decided to get his choice on”? Ie, he forgot to follow Dalrock’s first rule of marriage: Stop being a dumbass!
But yes this guy really has a cool factor going on. Mrs Dalrock flatters me by saying I’m a cross between him and Mike Rowe. She is a very kind woman!
Did you see the video clips? Especially the one I said was my favorite? Or was this just from the still pics? I didn’t think the pics did him justice. I was wondering if anyone would really be impressed by him. You really have to see him in action. Watching that program is like a course in LTR game.
“How about “If my husband got flighty tomorrow and decided to get his choice on”? ”
It wouldn’t happen. I fall back on the death scenario because it’s the most likely way of my ever being single again. Of course, if my husband “got his choice on,” I might indeed become a widow.
I was whipped last night, too tired to watch the clips, but the concept looks interesting. I’ll look at them later. It sounds though like the whole family would like the show. We used to watch Bear Grylls and “Man Against Wild” (Is that right?–I forgot the name.)
So I wrote that whole long post, and you commented on the short, funny one? That’ll teach me!
“I think that a lot of women select cads not knowing that they are cads.”
Right! And that’s why game works best on younger women and part of why PUAs love younger woman. It’s not just the fertility, estrogen saturation and all that. It’s also the lack of tolerance for alpha shenanigans among women who’ve been around the block enough to have learned from being hurt.
I didn’t have time to comment on the long one. It was really outstanding and I’m guessing you can already guess which points I might take minor issue with. I’ll take a crack at it later.
if my husband “got his choice on,” I might indeed become a widow.
Now you are killing me! When my wife sold jewelry at a dept store, a man came in and was looking at buying a pair of spatula earrings for his wife. He asked her: “What would you do if your husband bought you these”. Without missing a beat she said “About 20 years”. (rimshot)
Yes, like Bear, but I don’t think he looks for excuses to take his shirt off. He also doesn’t seek out the most likely way to kill himself in a survival situation like Bear does. In the one we watched he decided to actually follow survival rules and stay with the broken down vehicle, for example. I was floored. I like Bear, but this guy is 10x cooler. Your whole family will indeed love the show if the episode we saw is what the series will be like.
My BS detector meter needle just pegged. I’m going to need to fix it or buy a new one.
They believe because they want to believe. At least most of them. The ones who get fooled more than once are lying to themselves. And buying their BS creates a moral hazard.
Nice post. I agree entirely with the commenter who said: “my DH is pretty good at manipulating the environment so that we all have a pretty good life. ” That is what being an alpha male is really about, successfully handling the actual conditions on the ground. I also agree that the difference between an “alpha” and a “beta” may just be a matter of conscience. If being an alpha means having affairs, then I am not interested.
Thanks! Welcome to the blog!
I agree with both J’s original comment that you quote, as well as your point on not being interested. I’m just not that guy.
@ Dalrock
They believe because they want to believe. At least most of them. The ones who get fooled more than once are lying to themselves. And buying their BS creates a moral hazard.
Yes and no. I read Amanda’s post and, while I understand how you get a young woman willfully making a mistake that she should have known better than to make,
I see a girl being young and stupid, but hopefully learning from her mistake.
Amanda said, ” I’m not going to lie..I had a feeling he was a “Bad boy” based on the way he was acting in the beginning but I felt his behavior was changing and he was acting nicer towards me.” That’s a classic youthful mistake. She knew he was “bad,” she tried to set some limits, he appeared to be responding, and she thought he was changing or more dangerously still–she thought that SHE was changing him. All rookie mistakes, all fueled by wishful thinking. Why? Because she loovvveedddd him. She made herself vulnerable to the wrong guy.
Amanda continues, “But now I know that was just a lie to get laid…he probably knew it wasn’t working before so he had to convince me he was a “good guy.” And no..I didn’t want to do it and was pressured into it.” What is that call at CR? Push-pull? Whatever it was it waa a tactic, and she fell for it. Now she knows it was a lie. Good for her!
Amanda said, “I told him I thought it wasn’t the right time and I wasn’t ready. But you know what? He didn’t care. “That’s right, he didn’t. He pushed past her LMRs. Bravo, gamesters! “And I think I wanted to keep him so badly that I just did it.” So, he used her love for him against her.
Amada then explains, ” I haven’t had many relationships and I’m young so like..I don’t know- maybe I liked the attention and liked having a boy “like me.” It just sucks and I’m going back to school soon and have to see him.” So we see here just how young and inexperienced she really is. Junior high? High school? Let’s remember back to those days and project how this is going to affect her at school. The boys will all know the story, and the all the little apha thugs will try to get with her. Will she give in? Or will she just be prey for the next guy who pretends to be nice beacuse she feels so grateful that he’s not a little thug? What about the girls? Will they shun her as a slut? Will she adopt the attitude of bravado that attempts to save face by saying, “No, I mean to do that. I’m young, and I want to slut it up and have a good time”?
Amanda warns, “My advice to girls. NEVER let a guy pressure you like I did. I always thought this wouldn’t happen to me but when you get in that situation of being in the same bed with him the chances increase and increase. ” Lesson learned? I hope so, but let’s face it, sooner or later, unless she joins a convent, she will have to face that situation again.
Amanda continues, “If you say no you are coming off as being a tease when ..I don’t believe I really meant to at all. I LOOKED like the bad guy when I believe it was him and I felt I had to do it to prove I wasn’t a tease.” Jeez, see the crap that kids have to kow how to handle while they are still young and immature. Do we as a society really expect that a teenager should know how to handle a guy in that situation? How many adult women handle that stuff well?
And finally, Amanda realizes, “I have alwwayssss liked cocky, bad boys but I’m really going to try. I think there’s something wrong with me but whenever a guy is like too nice I ignore them and walk away and then when a guy teases me and is flirty I love it. I need to get out of this pattern!!!” That’s pretty advanced thinking for a kid. I’m impressed and hopeful that she will have the wherewithal to change. But if she does, isn’t that, in the eyes of some, just coming off the carousel to use some poor beta? To settle? I say no, but I’ve already had this argument at CR.
BTW, I thought your advice to her was both wise and compassionate.
Athol, I read your Apha/Beta Traits post. Great stuff. Great minds think alike! 😉
@ Dalrock
“When my wife sold jewelry at a dept store, a man came in and was looking at buying a pair of spatula earrings for his wife. He asked her: “What would you do if your husband bought you these”. Without missing a beat she said “About 20 years”. ”
Your wife is funny. We’d probably get along.
“Yes, like Bear, but I don’t think he looks for excuses to take his shirt off. ”
Pity…
“I like Bear, but this guy is 10x cooler. Your whole family will indeed love the show if the episode we saw is what the series will be like.”
Yeah, I looked at the clips. It looks like a good show.
In terms of LTR game, this is what I like objectively and also find sexual attractive about Hawke:
–He is authoritative, rather than authoritarian. Unlike many we know who would “lead” through violence or intimidation, he leads through knowledge and competancy. He knows what he’s doing, so his wife, who looks like a bright and competant woman herself, sees him as some she can follow into a potentially dangerous situation.
–He is kind. Although he understands that they may have to eat the turtle, he is sympathetic to her love for turtles, even in this tense situation. When he catches the snake, he lets the turtle go–not because he’s a pushover, but because he’s considerate.
–He is calm and even-tempered, under control. As I’ve said here and at CR, a real man control himself and negotiates his environment; a weak man “controls” a woman.
–He’s secure enough to promote independence. He teaches her how to make a fire, for example; he doesn’t hog that knowledge in order to make her dependent on him.
I thought your advice to her was both wise and compassionate.
Thank you! I had the whole thing typed out and several times decided to delete it without posting it. She was treated awfully, and I felt like I was rubbing salt in the wound. But I kept thinking she paid a high price for this knowledge, it would be a real tragedy if she walked away without even that. I was expecting to get flamed pretty hard for that, and was very pleasantly surprised by her response.
You are right that it was a youthful mistake. And she seems to be thinking more clearly than the majority of girls in her situation would I think. But even rereading the sections you copied and pasted, it strikes me that she is trying to talk herself into justifying why she won’t stop. I hope I’m wrong. Actually what I really hope is that she is happy with whatever choice she makes.
Why? Because she loovvveedddd him. She made herself vulnerable to the wrong guy.
In the same way a man might fall in love with a stripper while enjoying the show. So he makes himself vulnerable to her by putting her on his bank account, buying her expensive gifts, giving her keys to his place, and letting her drive his expensive car. Ahhh. The things we do for love!
What would you tell your son if he did the above? I’m guessing it would be something similar to Stop being a dumbass!
Funny! I actually watched that show and the guy annoyed me because I felt like he was being condescending to his wife. I was actually really turned off to him.
Your wife is funny. We’d probably get along.
I agree.
As to his LTR game, I agree with all of what you said. His frame, compassion, confidence, everything strikes me as perfect. My wife made similar comments about how he lead her without making her feel less for following. We can all learn a great deal from this guy.
Interesting. Just out of curiosity, who would you think is a better example?
Edit: And welcome to the blog!
I like your blog.
Hi Vasafaxa! Good to see you here. I think you need to look at what Hawke does, not his manner so much. I agree that there is a little something about his manner that isn’t engaging, but I thought it was just me.
But even rereading the sections you copied and pasted, it strikes me that she is trying to talk herself into justifying why she won’t stop. I hope I’m wrong.
I think you are. My worry from her revolves around what happens when she returns to school. I hope she doesn’t try to brazen it out by acting slutty or fall for the first seemingly sympathetic guy who then takes advantage. I have a feeling she is really young.
<In the same way a man might fall in love with a stripper while enjoying the show. ..What would you tell your son if he did the above?”
Is this before or after I put my head in the oven?
My DH and I try hard to instill moral values without being naive or prudish. The boys know what is going on in the world, because we really don’t believe that innocence protects kids. So far they have made good, moral judgements about it. OTOH, you just never know what kids’ll do. I hope the boys are never so desperate for love that they behave so stupidly.
I’m guessing it would be something similar to Stop being a dumbass!
Probably.
I have every confidence you are raising your sons well and holding them to a high standard. I brought that up because I think you have a blind spot for young girls. They would benefit from being called on their BS as much if not more than boys would. Not acknowledging their power to make better choices is one of the greatest unkindnesses we can do to them.
Dalrock: Post content deleted but left since there are replies. Sheetal is a troll who posts under multiple identities (Indian Grandmother, Bad Boy, etc).
Yes, and men have choices too. A woman can choose to screw around a lot. That is her right. And it is the right of a man to say, I don’t want a woman who screwed around a lot with men before she met me, and now expects to marry me and have me not care.
It is very one-sided of a woman to expect to sleep with one kind of man and marry another. It is disrespectful to another human being, and I am amazed that so many men don’t seem to care and marry these girls anyway. Perhaps they are starting to wake up slowly to the unfairness.
Believe me, I would not have married a woman who had screwed around before she met me.
Women need to remember: if women have choices, so do men. Men are not obliged to play ‘bit parts’ in a woman’s life drama.
I brought that up because I think you have a blind spot for young girls.
I used to be one. 😉
I remember what it was like.
They would benefit from being called on their BS as much if not more than boys would.
As much. As someone who has worked with kids all her adult life and constantly has teenage boys holed up in her basement, I can assure you that they have complementary BS to the girls.
Not acknowledging their power to make better choices is one of the greatest unkindnesses we can do to them.
Of course. No one benefits from seeing themself as a helpless victim.
It is very one-sided of a woman to expect to sleep with one kind of man and marry another.
True, but men do it all the time.
Dalrock: Sheetal is our local troll (Indian Grandmother) and has been banned. Again.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
I wasn’t a player and I didn’t marry a ho.
My point was that, if I understand the increasingly strident complaints of average American men, they are being asked to take on women who have only “settled” for them after sleeping with “better” men. I would not blame the average men if they started to realise that this was a bad deal.
Dalrock, I think competence is huge in generating sexual attraction. First, it demonstrates higher value when a man can display his expertise. I really don’t think it matters what it is. Well, that’s an exaggeration. It has to be something he can share with women. So for the most part, video games are out for this purpose.
Second, having an acquired skill serves to bolster natural self-confidence, at least around that skill. It’s a cycle of positive reinforcement.
I wrote a post about this – I watched Bobby Flay on the Food Network, and although I don’t find him the least bit attractive physically, as I watched him sear a tuna steak and then slice it he was soooo sexy. It was an awesome DHV.
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/03/26/relationshipstrategies/only-four-words-stand-between-you-and-the-girl-of-your-dreams/
Yay, come by! I think your comments on this thread are spectacularly smart and interesting.
Wow, I think you’re my twin, and we were separated at birth. Honestly, it’s exciting to “meet” a woman who feels exactly the way I do about this issue. Not only that, but our stories are similar – I’ve been married for 25 years to a wonderful husband and father who unapologetically calls himself a beta male.
After months of writing about this alpha/beta divide, I’m convinced it’s not particularly helpful. For starters, there really is no consensus on what the terms mean. Defining alpha as a man who has affairs is morally indefensible in my book, as it makes infidelity an objective for men trying to learn Game.
I just stumbled across a book by a woman named Tami Cowden about the eight archetypes of male heroes. She wrote it as a manual for writers of fiction, especially romance. What I found most fascinating was that not all of the eight types were classically “alpha.” On Game blogs, one constantly sees romance novels referred to as proof of what women want. It turns out that the smart, bookish, introvert is one of those types, as women want to penetrate that cool and intellectual exterior. Anyway, I’ve requested the book and hope to write about it. I look forward to viewing female attraction through a different lens for a change.
J, Amanda is a college student, and I feel very good about her post. She has commented from time to time – in other words, she’s been a reader of mine for a while. I don’t think Amanda ever hopped on that carousel, she’s just trying to navigate her way to a relationship in college. Many college girls give blowjobs out with zero resistance, so my guess is that she was quite inexperienced upon arriving at college. She’s already experienced pain at the hands of a player, and she didn’t even have to have sex. In other words, she got off lightly compared to many young women. I am optimistic that she will have her eyes wide open for red flags next year.
Reading at CR one would get the impression that all women are incapable of behaving rationally when it comes to the “tingle.” The hindbrain wins every argument. I know for certain that isn’t true, and women can and do make rational decisions around mating.
Dalrock, I think she was sheepish to admit that she had already behaved stupidly, knowing she was headed for trouble. Her instincts had already told her he was no good, but she ignored them to justify encouraging him. She indulged in that fantasy that she would be the girl to tame the player. I think she has self-respect and is determined not to let that happen again.
Some girls learn from one bad experience. Some learn after a couple or three. And other girls keep on making the same mistakes for 20 years.
Dalrock, just want to say that I am so impressed – you have a very new blog and are already generating excellent discussion. Well done!
I wasn’t a ho, and I didn’t marry a player.
I really do understand the complaints and see why it’s a bad deal for the guy. But I also see it as the flip side of a guy wanting to take advantage of women when he’s young and then settled down with a 20 year old virgin when he’s 40. Turn about is fairplay.
Ditto!! I am happy to see how rapidly this blog has caught on.
Yes, but you are comparing something that happens a lot (used up tart marries herb) and comparing it with something that happens far less often (old player marries virgin). That is because there are more tarts and herbs than players and virgins.
BTW, I was watching a program on Home&Health channel last night, about wives trying to get pregnant through IVF. It was striking how miserable the men looked, but of course nobody focussed on them. Talk about herbs! As I said to my wife, these guys are being cuckolded by science, and they don’t look happy. ALL the focus was on the emotions of the wives.
Hi Susan,
Glad to hear the good news re Amanda. It rips my heart out to see girls screwing themselves over.
Reading at CR one would get the impression that all women are incapable of behaving rationally when it comes to the “tingle.”
Jeez, do ya think? The first time I posted there I was accused of being a carousel rider, a feminist, a beta settler, etc. for even trying to make that point. When it became clear I wasn’t a carousel rider, then I was a “forebrain thinker” and a “future-oriented” woman who picked for herself the same guy her father would have picked for her. You just can’t win.
The hindbrain wins every argument. I know for certain that isn’t true, and women can and do make rational decisions around mating.
We can and do–most of us, everyday. Those just aren’t the girls PUAs meet, and they generalize from the ones they do meet and succeed with.
@J
Once in a thread over at the Spearhead, I mentioned that I was happily married to a beta male that I’d met in grad school. A few days later, I went back to check the thread and saw to my horror that a conversation had occurred about me. Men were agreeing that Susan Walsh had married a man she wasn’t even attracted to – her beta provider – after riding the carousel for years. They also had the audacity to suggest that I could never have gotten into grad school without affirmative action! I was stunned. I read posts there and at CR from time to time, but to be honest, I prefer to lurk rather than comment.
@ David
Yes, but you are comparing something that happens a lot (used up tart marries herb) and comparing it with something that happens far less often (old player marries virgin). That is because there are more tarts and herbs than players and virgins.
Perhaps I’m exaggerating with virgins, but check out the numbers of hits on signicantly younger and less experienced women scored by some of the guys at CR. I’d say the damage done by each sex is roughly equal.
BTW, I was watching a program on Home&Health channel last night, about wives trying to get pregnant through IVF. It was striking how miserable the men looked, but of course nobody focussed on them.
I’ve never done in vitro but I did have endometriosis and some surgeries to repair the damage, miscarriages, etc. It’s a miserable process for both parties involved, but it’s obviously harder physically on the woman. Husbands are emotionally affected as well, and there can be a great deal of stress on the marriage.
“these guys are being cuckolded by science…
How so? Generally, IVF uses the husband’s sperm. Even when the man has low quality sperm they can wash it, eliminate some of the weaker, less motile sperm, or combine ejaculations to raise the sperm count. They can even pick out one really good sperm cell to fertilize an egg.
Wow, I think you’re my twin, and we were separated at birth. Honestly, it’s exciting to “meet” a woman who feels exactly the way I do about this issue.
It’s great to meet you too.
After months of writing about this alpha/beta divide, I’m convinced it’s not particularly helpful. For starters, there really is no consensus on what the terms mean.
Yep.
Defining alpha as a man who has affairs is morally indefensible in my book, as it makes infidelity an objective for men trying to learn Game.
I agree that this is truly offensive. I can see game as a remedy for poor social skills for some men, and I’ve even gamed my DH into a few dates. I respect the guys who are using game to improve their marriages and LTRs. But I find using game to use people unconscionable.
I just stumbled across a book by a woman named Tami Cowden…I look forward to viewing female attraction through a different lens for a change.
Sounds interesting. I’ll look forward to a blog post.
I got the impression – from the initial discussion on donors – that they were using donor sperm. Even if not, it is not very flattering for the poor guy. And they did look miserable. The women looked happy or sad, depending on how it was all going; but the guys just looked defeated.
If people get together sexually, presumably they are both happy about it at the time. The young girls with the older players are not forced to have sex with them. The problem obviously comes down the road when the men who missed out when the girls were “younger, tighter, hotter” (Cf. GBFM) are conned into marrying them.
I just knew this instinctively when I was on the marriage market, but some men are dumb about these things, and they are being conned.
I just remember seeing part of an episode where they found a turtle and his wife didn’t want to eat it and he was like very condescendingly saying well honey it’s what we’ve found so far la-la. I just got a very me tarzan you-jane feel from it. Like she was this weak feminine creature that he had to protect because she didn’t want to eat the turtle.
I don’t know that sounds strange. It’s funny I think sexually I have very polar responses to dominance in guys, sometimes it really turns me one and other times I just think it is condescending as hell and bugs the shit out of me. For example when I played football with the my cousins and my uncles made them give me advantages because I was a girl it really bothered me.
I don’t know if that makes any sense. As for an example of a good beta I know it’s fictional but I loved Steve Carell in Date Night with Tina Fay. I thought it was a funny, sweet, movie.
I think she has self-respect and is determined not to let that happen again.
I’m very glad to read that. Like I said, I just hope she makes whatever choice she will be happiest with.
And I really did agonize about posting my advice to her. I half expected you to zap them, and would have understood if you did. But it seems like she took it as intended, and that in itself is something I have great respect for. She is head and shoulders above her peers I would say for that reason alone.
Thanks Susan!
I’m really tickled to see the discussion as well. This is what I created the blog for. I love it!
I wouldn’t say it is always a con. I know couples where the wife was in her mid 30s when they married, and the wife was no carouseler. Under the right circumstances it wouldn’t be a con even if she was one. But what is going on now is really striking to me. Women announcing their plan to sleep with the kind of guy they really want for a decade or so and then condescend to marry a beta at the proverbial last minute.
It is certainly their right, but the betas have every right to look elsewhere (non carousel riders) or try for a con of their own (not that I’d advise either party to con).
For those who don’t have much sympathy for the (lesser) betas getting left on the sidelines now, consider that with the carouselers unilaterally changing the rules that all women past their 20s could eventually pay a price when it comes to marriage. The stigma could end up sticking to them even though they weren’t the instigators. This is an ugly arms race, and I’m very happy to be Switzerland.
I got the impression – from the initial discussion on donors – that they were using donor sperm.
It’s possible. I didn’t see the show, but I think most people going through the trouble and expense of IVF want a child who is biologically related to both partners.
Even if not, it is not very flattering for the poor guy. And they did look miserable.
I think men get more ego-involved in it than women do. My DH felt embarassed at times, even though the infertility problem was mine, not his.
The problem obviously comes down the road when the men who missed out when the girls were “younger, tighter, hotter” (Cf. GBFM) are conned into marrying them.
Conned? The guys have no choice? If you are not fortunate enough to meet your “dream partner” when you are younger, male or female, you’re going to find someone with a history unless you go way younger–which is what folks at the Chateau fantasize about.
Thanks J!
You have of course played a part in making the site successful with your excellent comments.
@Susan
A few days later, I went back to check the thread and saw to my horror that a conversation had occurred about me. Men were agreeing that Susan Walsh had married a man she wasn’t even attracted to – her beta provider – after riding the carousel for years.
Wow, there’s a surprise. It’s script that some of those guys just can’t deviate from due to bitterness, Asperger’s, or a near religious belief in game. It’s a shame because there are some really bright guys in the man-o-sphere who’ve had bad experience they can’t or won’t move away from.
They also had the audacity to suggest that I could never have gotten into grad school without affirmative action! I was stunned.
Again, no surprise.
I read posts there and at CR from time to time, but to be honest, I prefer to lurk rather than comment.
You’re smarter than I am. I comment; fools rush in….
But, you see, you are still making the assumptions that men and women feel the same way about “previous experience”; that the previous experience of a “herb” and a “slut” will be somehow commensurate; and that a “herb” will know what he is getting and letting himself in for. None of these are fair assumptions. My wife was a virgin, and I was practically a virgin. We don’t spend time remembering that crazy time when a previous lover did [insert radical sexual act]. My wife and I did lots of wild stuff, but we did it TOGETHER. With the “herb-slut” mating, the guy is getting used, if not damaged, goods and the girl is getting a sexual loser.
Look, a man will drink from a well in the desert, even if all the wells are full of camel turds. It doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have preferred a clean well.
Doesn’t “alpha” just mean leader – someone others are willing and happy to follow, whether the place is the bedroom, the boardroom, or the battlefield?
My grandfather was quite alpha. He was self-made and utterly uncompromising in his principles, but those principles were not the ones being advocated by PUA’s. He was staunchly anti-alcohol, faithful to his wife and church, and had little respect for men or women who couldn’t put in a full day’s work. He was not tall or handsome and late in life was known to say that he “got the prettiest woman in the neighborhood” although my grandmother was not a great beauty. So, no Mystery there. But men and women respected his opinions and followed his lead. He was frugal all of this life, but generous with his family and his church. He was not always easy to live with and had high, high standards I probably wouldn’t pass, but he was true leader, an alpha guy.
We need more of him, but the culture will not produce them. You can’t grow mushrooms in a desert.
I think Roissy is guilty of something he generally is good at exposing. He is measuring the man based on the quality of his woman. But this is how we measure women (by the quality of her man), not men. I’ve never measured a man based on how pretty his wife is, or how many women he sleeps with. This isn’t a male way to look at the world. Funny that Roissy can’t see that.
We need more of him, but the culture will not produce them. You can’t grow mushrooms in a desert.
From what I understand about where mushrooms grow, this culture is probably the best place to grow them. But your point is still apt. Your grandfather was exactly the kind of man men today should be aspiring to be, regardless of how we define the terms Alpha and Beta.
I’m hesitant to try to redefine the terms mid conversation though, because I think this would in the end only cause confusion. Plus it would smack of exactly what Roissy did in the first place, which is to try to redefine the terms in such a way as to place those like myself (or who I aspire to be like) on top. I’ve been thinking about this and I’m rolling over the idea of using the term manly. It has a generally agreed meaning that we can build on without excessively confusing the issue. I haven’t thought the whole thing through, but overall I like it. One risk I can see is the feminists, etc coopting it as they have as a way to manipulate men for their own ends. Doing anything other than a feminist wants you to do earns a man accusations of being unmanly. This is probably what we need to take back, and leave Alpha for the PUAs.
I love your blog to bits, but please don’t use the term “manly”, like “moist” and “pantyhose” it is just a term that really sends me up the wall. I’m not sure why. There must be a better word.
Thanks for the chuckle. Yeah, words can take on images which we didn’t have in mind. This probably warrants a post of its own.
I tend to agree with you on the word manly. I looked at the tag I created and it is actually “manliness”. For some reason that feels better. But I’m not sure why, and it may invoke the same reaction you had to the other version.
I’m open to suggestions.
Oh, and along the way I think we need to slightly redefine Alpha to be a cautionary term as well. I think you can see me doing this in this specific post. You want alpha? You sure? Some alpha, yes. But pure alpha? Not hard to find if you want it.
The story behind your screen name (specifically her brother and nephew) comes to mind. Flying high is a great feeling, and who doesn’t love the sun’s warmth? Just be careful not to overdo a good thing.
I agree about flying high, fortunately I have always suffered from vertigo which tends to keep one’s feet more or less on the ground.
I was thinking in terms of “good alpha” as opposed to “bad alpha” but this is probably not right either.
Manliness is better than manly but still reminds me of something a mother would say to her son. I think the problem may be that the “ess” and the “ly” at the end of these words are actually too feminine & that is where the incongruency lies.
I just remember seeing part of an episode where they found a turtle and his wife didn’t want to eat it and he was like very condescendingly saying well honey it’s what we’ve found so far la-la.
I think given the context his response was pretty measured. They are trying to survive, avoid being stung by bullet ants, etc, and she is getting emotionally attached to the food which literally volunteered. From a man’s perspective I would say she really should be focused on solving the problems they already have rather than create new ones. I’m lucky in that my wife is much more grounded and would never have said something like this.
Likewise when he caught the (5 ft?) crocodile with his bare hands, she asked why he didn’t catch a bigger one. I might have given my wife a bit of a look at that point. But he didn’t let on that it might have been a slightly inappropriate question to ask (my wife reminded me of this example just now).
For example when I played football with the my cousins and my uncles made them give me advantages because I was a girl it really bothered me.
Run both above scenarios with his buddy being the one asking “why didn’t you catch a bigger crock?” or “can we not eat this survival food because it looks so cute?”. Any guy who said this kind of thing to another man would be busted on forever. That isn’t what you are suggesting he do with his wife is it?
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Oh, it wasn’t what they said. I totally agree that they had to eat the turtle but how he said it. As a matter a fact his wife’s behavior annoyed me just as much as the husband. When you’re out in the wilderness, you’re right you shouldn’t be getting attached to food. It was more, on reflection, the portrayal of the woman as being this girl who got attached to random turtles and couldn’t do what needed to be done that annoyed me.
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i choked up when she was so upset at killing the possum and he was so sweet to her
I liked that part too. He was very patient with her. I also liked how she got past the difficulty she had with it and enjoyed the meal.
For those who don’t have much sympathy for the (lesser) betas getting left on the sidelines now, consider that with the carouselers unilaterally changing the rules that all women past their 20s could eventually pay a price when it comes to marriage. The stigma could end up sticking to them even though they weren’t the instigators. This is an ugly arms race, and I’m very happy to be Switzerland.
Dalrock, the Carouselers *need* to make sure everyone buys into their program and suffers the consequences. Far from lamenting this, they desperately seek it.
They’re seeking to redefine everything to suit themselves. It’s a stated goal when these things are articulated. It’s all about framing the debate.
The best way to deal with it is to simply shame them, shame them, and then make sure those Betas have better options.
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According to the table you linked to I would be a greater beta. Most of the characteristics are from lesser alpha or alpha, but I have one major failing my his definition. Family is important to me, I take care of my kids, and I would never cheat. It seems that by CR’s standards this is a bad thing. People respect me, defer to my decisions, and I always seem to have a following. I have no shortage of chances to get laid, but I already think I’ve had too many partners and if I ever make double digits will have failed completely.
Hi Morghan,
Welcome to the blog.
Your comment has me puzzled so I hope you wont mind my asking. Are you a man or a woman?
I’m a man, and a single father. I’m always looked to for decisions, and most everyone who knows me would call me the alpha, but by CR’s standards I fall short because I prefer to keep it in my pants until I think there is a chance at what I was raised to believe relationships should be. This is probably a result of my parents being in their fifties when they had me, most of my opinions and beliefs were formed with the help of people a generation or two behind other people my age.
Sorry it’s not letting me post nested, I think my browser may be rendering your page improperly.
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Blechhh! Words fail me.
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Nailed it, Dalrock. I hate the terms “alpha” and “beta” because of the simplifying natures, but this is a great article.
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Saw this quote from you. Dalrock, and just had to ask.
You ever read the book “Wild at Heart”? I’d almost recommend it as “Christian Game” but I think that’s actually selling the book short (nigh insulting). It’s been out for awhile so you should be able to get some copies cheap.
It will really help you crystallize thoughts like the above.
[D: Thanks! No, I’m not familiar with that book. I’m backed up on my non web reading list, so I don’t know when I might get around to looking at it.]
I have to disagree on some of the things you wrote in this post specially about Roissy’s opinions on being alpha or beta, that his is not as “wholesome” as it should be. Roissy indeed recommends LTR’s to people and I for one find his advice to be helpful. His teaching in that matter is about having the true and devoted love of your partner, his information is just not for the faint of heart and I don’t think that needs an apology anyway it’s a no Bullshit blog anyway
He gave good points about LTR’s and the things to avoid in this post
The Hazards Of Long Term Relationships
BTW roissy even said : “if you have kept a girl for 5 years , by no means are you a betta.” People just don’t get the concept here its about the way women are attracted to you.
“First off, if you’ve had a girlfriend for five years that you were banging then you are not a beta “by every standard”, unless she is fat or ugly. Truly incorrigible betas can’t even manage that.”
Exerp from:
Reader Mailbag: Happiness Maximization Edition
Roissy even has a good number of readers in a resious relationship who have successfully applied his principles and he by no means called him a betta
Relationship Game Week: A Reader’s Journey
(hello??? A betta with such a good inner game?)
In this post he showed that he is open to romance and love and that he believed it
Love as you can see Heartiste is not one sided I always get excellent information on that site and I couldn’t have saved my warthorne relationship without it
Want proof of the other people he has helped other than myself? Go to his blog yourself and read with an open mind and read this
Reader Mailbag
I know what you are thinking: What a loser! The guy does stuff with his wife! And they find common ground! Doesn’t he know women are only good for a pump and dump? This guy is soo beta.
I don’t think this is what Chateu has tos ay about this. From what I learned from their blog this guy’s move on bonding with his wife in an exotic, creative , and tough way showing leadership and manliness every step of the way is not godammn Betta do not put words on one’s mouth. I have more than 700 pages of chateu articles I read here and conting and that is SO not the message . He even Roissy even suggested an alpha way to treat your wife on a romantic vacation in the Hills as he describes here:
Relationship Game Week
As you can see that qualifies as an Uber Alpha getaway as based on Chateu
The poin is don’t ask the girl if she wants to go here blah blah blah , just declare show some backbone girls love that and im sure you know that.
The poon commandment are also practical especially the 3/2 rule its just how to be a man are you Americans just surprised about that? Here in the Philippines we have a rule on men not being socially acceptable to speak too much and the result ? more alpha males and more devoted women ( not to mention the very different upbringing for guys here ) if you are confused about the poon check this out:
More Thoughts On The Poon Commandments
All in all I love your posts but this one about Chateu is just not entirely true and Dalrock that disappoints me you know better.
This post is a real life example of why the black and white alpha/beta paradigm isn’t as reliable as many manosphere bloggers make it out to be. I prefer “the scale” as defined here: http://alphapersona.wordpress.com/scale/
This draws the distinction between men such as yourself (beta) and the typical beta loser stereotype (on this scale, delta or gamma).
Pity, Dalrock – AlphaPersona is no longer available. (Not sure how long that’s been true, given the tag is 12/27/2011. Was a good blog.) Anyone have the scale Dulst refers to saved off, or archived? Would be good to keep a referenced item like that as an archived item somewhere, but I don’t even know if google has things indexed that way…
Recall in my mid-20s attending this Sunday school class full of women.
When the teacher, an older woman in her 50s-60s, arrived, I promptly stood up from my chair.
:”…wow. We have a GENTLEMAN in the class this morning….” she told the class.
True, I considered myself a “Christian gentleman” and tried to do things to be nice and considerate of the women, but I really did want to get noticed and perhaps date some of them.
Looking back, I see that “standing up for the women” tactic may have made me look even more like a beta to them.
If I’d acted rebellious, obnoxious, dressed badly, maybe called them BITCHES, think they’d have gone more for me ?? 🙂
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