Ferdinand is stirring it up over at his site, with a scathing post about the CBS Reporter who discovered that chaos reigned in the anarchic mob in Egypt’s Tahrir Square. Here is a picture of the reporter when covering the Iraq War from Wiki:
She didn’t deserve whatever it is that CBS hints at but won’t say happened to her, but anyone who has been to a Muslim country knows that women shouldn’t wear see through shirts there as a basic safety precaution. That goes double for western women in a war zone. Any time you have to use a bullet proof vest as a cover-up, you aren’t properly dressed. I’m just sayin. I say this as a man who traveled with his sister in Morocco and his wife in Turkey. I wouldn’t have let either of them go out in public like that.
However, before you accuse me of being an insensitive ass, in her defense the reporter was on a man hunt at the time, and married men can be an elusive quarry.
After seeing Ferdinand’s post, I saw this story from the AP linked from Drudge. This part in particular caught my attention:
Sexual harassment of women is an all-too-common occurrence on the streets of Cairo. But many women noted a complete absence of it in the early days of protests in Tahrir Square, where demonstrators made a point of trying to create a microcosm of the society without many of Egypt’s social ills.
However, in the final days, and especially after the battles with pro-Mubarak gangs who attacked the protesters in Tahrir, women noticed sexual assault had returned to the square. On the day Mubarak fell, women reported being groped by the rowdy crowds. One witness saw a woman slap a man after he touched her. The man was then passed down a line of people who all slapped him and reprimanded him.
Really?
Women went into the square expecting to be assaulted, and noted the refreshing change? And the crowd passed a groper down the line, each one slapping him and reprimanding him?
So a dude cops a feel of Egyptian chick’s breasts, and as punishment he is slapped, kicked and punched by both the woman and a line of men, and somehow she’s the one who got the raw end of that deal?
That sounds highly implausible to me as well.
As for Lara Logan, apparently she was banging the other CNN reporter — the Australian war reporter, can’t remember his name now, Michael somethingorother — at the same time that she was banging the married guy. She strikes me as the kind of woman who “gets around”, shall we say. She’s hot, and as a war reporter she travels a lot, meets a lot of exotic men, and also spends a lot of time around other testosterone-charged men like soldiers and career war reporters and so on. Pretty bleak prospect for a wife, I would think, and the contractor who fell for her probably needs his head examined.
As or what happened in the square, it was a very bad idea for her to be where she was, when she was. I’ve been to Egypt, and the best case scenario for a Western woman who looks and dresses like Logan is more or less constant stares and catcalls, both from pedestrians and drivers. It’s simply a different culture — not all women wear a burqa, but modesty rules apply and almost all women wear clothing that covers their arms and legs and does not reveal cleavage. When a hot, Western blonde with a boob job like Logan turns up, dressed like the hot Western girls they’re used to seeing on MTV and Western shows and movies piped onto Egyptian TV, it’s a bad combination of that intersecting with the local culture. Add into that an extremely chaotic, uncontrollable mob, as was the case in the square, and all bets are simply off. This should not have happened to her, clearly, but she also ought not to have been there. Even Anderson Cooper was smart enough to stay away from crowds like that.
Two Royal Marines made official complaints about married Lara at Bagram ? and top brass ordered her to cover up.
One source said: “She caused ill feeling by going to the galley, the marines’ canteen, in a top with an extremely plunging neckline.
“To be honest half her boobs were hanging out.
“A marine was so furious he stood up and shouted, ?That isn’t fair! Some of us have been out here away from women for months’. Then he complained.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article149727.ece
I’m an American woman who lived in Egypt with my husband, a U.S. foreign service officer, until 2 weeks ago when my daughter and I were evacuated. For the 2.5 years we were there, I made it a point to dress modestly–at least 3/4 sleeves, loose clothing, nothing low cut, etc. Let me tell you, harassment occurs no matter what you’re wearing. BUT it’s minimized by dressing and behaving appropriately.
Lara Logan absolutely did not deserve whatever happened to her. Her inappropriate clothing and behavior do not excuse the vile excuses-of-men for the choices they made. But she also did a lousy job of protecting herself, as did the organization that sent her there. Only men should have been sent into Tahrir, and she should have declined to go–report from a hotel balcony, yes; from the thick of it, no.
Oh, and for the record–women absolutely would have expected to be harassed during the protests (women wearing full niqab have been assaulted during marches on Muslim holidays, and that’s without the testosterone-releasing anger of these protests), and would have been pleasantly surprised not to have been. Most Egyptian women have been harassed, and most think that women who are dressed immodestly deserve to be harassed, though not attacked. And IF the men in the crowd identified with a woman who was being harassed, they would have protected her, though not in such an orderly way as passing the offender down a line–they would have just mobbed him.
@ nanke,
Obviously royal marines. American marines never complain about a little extra skin when they are on short rations of it.
http://www.t2conline.com/news-room/headliners/1299-lara-logan-raped-and-beaten-in-ciro-as-new-york-journalist-nir-rosen-makes-fun
Very stupid, foolish woman.. Should have left that kind of reporting to a man, who would better be able to handle such tense and inflammable situations.
This is however no joke, as some have tried to make it.
Professor Hale,
seeing extra skin isn’t much of a benefit if you cannot have sex with that woman. In fact, it’s obviously a source of frustration. Soldiers who had no access to women for months obviously don’t want to be teased.
So, a woman dressed like the woman in the photo from this post, who is definitely not showing anything, deserves to be raped. She also deserves to be raped because there is a rumor that she is involved with someone other than her husband.
Well, then I think all men who are rumored to be involved with someone other than their wives are obviously deserving of sexual assault. Any man who is rumored to be sexually involved with a coworker should automatically be raped up the butt with a penis or a broom or a sex toy, whatever works, because he’s obviously a slut if he’s attractive, wears a bulletproof vest and is rumored to be unfaithful to his wife, or just promiscuous if he’s not married. He should be raped; he’s obviously asking for it. Hopefully, he’s also beaten as well.
[D: You won me over. I’m now totally convinced that… wait, what was your point again?]
My point, for the record, is that neither a man nor a woman ever deserves to be raped. If you were raped by a man, would you deserve it because your white workshirt was somewhat see-through, or would it be because there’s a rumor floating around that you are screwing another man or woman that you work with? NO ONE EVER DESERVES TO BE RAPED; I don’t care what they’re doing, including screwing half the world’s population or walking around naked. NO MEANS NO, whether male or female. That’s my POINT.
[D: Who are you arguing against?]
Author, please read this web page and get back to us.
Thanks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
This what happens when you remove common sense from the equation. If it actually happened.
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All I’ll say on the subject is that, if she was dressing in revealing clothing like that in a Muslim country, she should have been withdrawn from the situation by her superiors for a lack of good judgement. The fact is, if she weren’t American, no one would have heard anything about any of it, and she would have been punished under Sharia.
Further, I find it appalling that someone would dress in such a way to offend a host culture like that. When you go to someone’s house, you wear appropriate clothing, don’t destroy their things, and compliment their food. If you can’t do that, then you shouldn’t be out visiting people. Its cases like this that create an ugly impression of Americans abroad. Half of these countries watch shows like Baywatch and American TV and think that’s what we are really like. Then when an American woman comes along and dresses in clothing that is worn by the equivalent of their prostitutes, of COURSE they think thats what all American women are like. She should have been removed for exercising not only bad judgement, but also offending the host culture.
Soldiers who had no access to women for months obviously don’t want to be teased.
Speak for yourself. Having been there, I can tell you I enjoyed it very much and don’t recall ever complaining or hearing anyone else complain about it..
The story is, to say the least, a suspicious one. In the first place, Logan’s new-found status as a victim, while ‘being a strong woman in pusuit of her duties’ carries with it a sort of perverse positive social status in our society. Doubtless, she’s suddenly become a feminist role-model and has more than a few career doors immediately opened to her over the incident.
Also: consider the men who allegedly attacked and violated Logan: aren’t these the same kinds of men with whom women voluntarily choose? Look at the ‘groping’ from thugs women openly invite at a typical social event: or the casual sex women engage in with anonymous partners at these events? Or, for that matter, the fact that American women obviously prefer relationships with thuggish louts to decent men—it doesn’t exactly give them much credibility to complain about what supposedly happened to Logan or play the victim card here.
To put it bluntly: the idea that sex is some precious commodity that American women jealously guard is laughable. Statistics as well as experience pretty clearly indicate that sex is something women value very little, preferring instead to use it as a weapon or a barter-commodity. This likewise, makes their outrage over incidents like these come across as bit superficial, to say the least.
No one deserves to be raped and because of that we should take measures to prevent it, like being realistic about the proclivities of mobs of angry men. In a perfect world we wouldn’t have to worry about these things, but this is the real world.
I recently got into an argument with my sister because she posted a news article about a girl at her college who went out, got really really drunk, and was raped. I simply commented that this was a good reason to tell women to be careful with alcohol…and a bunch of my sister’s friends and later my sister accused me of blaming the victim! When someone dies because they weren’t wearing a seatbelt and you sigh “if they were only wearing a seat belt” people take it as a cautionary lesson and don’t get crazy…
I do think it’s too bad to focus on this woman’s personal life. There have been plenty of upstanding women raped in situations like this. Women should learn to identify these situations and avoid them as much as possible.
Thank you, Melissa. That was a good comment.
@Eric
You’re just stupid. There’s a significant difference at work here between the situations you raise and Lara Logan’s rape. The word is: consent. Look it up.
Author, you were tasked with reading about a logical fallacy and reporting back. Since you have posted in the thread, it is obvious you read the task.
Please report back on the strawman fallacy.
Thanks.
My comment was not a strawman fallacy. Dalrock linked, in his blog, to a man whose post basically stated that this woman deserved to be raped. In addition, multiple comments on this blog have referenced the tired and antiquated position of a woman’s deserving being raped due to 1) her dress, and 2) her sexual history. Nothing new here. The woman deserves to be raped because she’s not covered in clothing from head to toe, and she’s rumored to be involved with more than one man that she works with.
In addition, even though the woman was actually hospitalized after her assault, the post Dalrock linked to actually mentions the possibility that her rape accusations are false. This guy has issues, big ones. He actually mentions Rapistburger as an example of “false” allegations. I’ll give him possible credit on the first allegation, but the second one…nah, even the district attorney, although he said that he didn’t have enough evidence to prosecute successfully, made it clear where his sympathies lie. When there are MULTIPLE rape allegations against a single man, and those multiple allegations are unrelated incidents from separate individuals in separate incidents, the thinking person has to ask him or herself: Where there’s smoke isn’t there usually fire? Not this guy.
My arguments aren’t straw man fallacy. They are very real concerns about misogyny displayed on the internet, in the form of commenting about opinions expressed debasing a very real female victim of an actual rape.
[D: FYI, it is customary to leave your comments on the blog your comments pertain to. Likewise, it is customary to only identify yourself as “Author” or “Ed”, etc on your own blog.]
My comments actually pertain to your blog. You have people making comments about the woman’s attire and her sexual history and then drawing the conclusion that she was raped because of that. Or saying that she didn’t deserve to be raped, but….and then bringing up the old argument about her clothing or her boob job (if she’s had one). It’s really just saying the same old thing.
Author, thank you for finally getting back to us on your fallacy.
Please strive to refrain from using the strawman fallacy in the future.
Thank you.
It matters not if people do not deserve to be raped. She has no business being in such a hostile environment, and especially dressed like she was. Part of the blame for her sexual assault rests on her bad decisions.
This isn’t insensitive, this is not falling for the politically correctness bs that overrides common sense these days. A young, attractive, foreign woman wearing a see-through top walking around a bunch of sex starved men is a recipe for disaster.
Author:
Don’t throw stones from a glass house. Here’s another homework assignment for you (if you’re not over-burdened by too much reading): look up the FBI statistics. What percentage of rape and harassment charges turn out to be false? Hmmmm?
And Logan is really so humilated and traumatized, why is she broadcasting the whole thing to the international press? How many (lucrative) offers to ‘tell all’ do you think she’ll turn down?
Coming soon to an airport bookstore near you :
Rogured by a Mob by Lara Logan
Tough, pretty war correspondent Lara Logan was just trying to do her job when she was set upon by a gang of Arab hooligans. This book rips the lid off the entire TV-Model-Spokesperson industry and makes hard-hitting calls for women’s right to do their job unmolested.
For the male readers we have the action thriller Dick Storm by Ian McGina
When a White Princess journalist was set upon by a mob of angry Arab ruffians while she was just trying to do her job, former Navy Seal Ross McBain single-handledly assists a group of women who come to her rescue.
For the record, by way of clarification, she wasn’t raped.
Early stories by mistake indicated this, reporters and bloggers went crazy with it.
She was horribly attacked and viciously beaten by the mob, stripped and attacked in an extremely humiliating way, but she wasn’t raped and other than being stripped and violently pinched (not bitten) all over, it’s hard to characterize this as a ‘sexual assault’.
As for blaming victims, I blame the news agencies who send reporters like Anderson Cooper and Lara Logan into these sort of situations. I honestly think that none of these journalists really fully understand the risks and they are used as pawns by networks and wire services to boost ratings. In covering incidents like this, Native journalists should be send.
EVERY news network and wire service, including NPR, have well trained and very competent native journalists on staff. They only send in the white ones in high visibility coverage for obvious reasons.
The BBC is well known for using native journalists who understand the local culture, and who can blend in better, to cover many high risk events. Not doing so is irresponsibility on the media’s part. Reporters like Lara and Anderson are just doing their jobs.
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