In my post on Advanced Divorce Sales, commenter Rhen suggested that women lose interest in men around age 55:
“Women in long-standing marriages tend to want to move on more”…Part of this may be biological. Hormonal changes after menopause seem to reduce a woman’s emotional range and particularly her interest/ability to bond. On the average, a 55 year old woman does not seem to feel a need for male company (I’m not even talking about sex here) in the same way a 55 year old man does for female company.
It has been my personal observation that whenever the discussion turns to the Dating/Mating/Marriage marketplace for women later in life the first response is denial, and after overwhelming data is provided the second response is that women don’t really want men around later in life anyway.
But since this assertion comes up fairly frequently I decided to see what I could dig up on the question. If it turns out to be correct that around age 55 or so women feel a sudden urge to no longer be married, this would seem to reinforce those voices calling for an all out marriage strike. If women aren’t interested in marriage for life, what is the point?
I did some searching around but either there isn’t much written on the topic or I wasn’t using the right search terms. My own sense on this is that women tend to drop out of the dating market when their options are the slimmest just like men do when their options are slimmest. I also think that the sex specific stigma of terms like spinster and old maid probably aren’t “social constructs” as so many assume. It strikes me that in evolutionary terms a woman and her offspring who didn’t have investment from a man later in life would be at a disadvantage safety and resource wise compared with women who did. I don’t see any reason why this would suddenly cease to be around the age of 55.
At any rate, as I said I can’t find any studies which confirm this one way or another. If you have any links I would appreciate it if you posted them in the comments section. However, I do have access to data from the US Census, so I decided to chart out women’s relationship status by age bracket. The data below is from the 2010 Census. I limited the data set to White Non Hispanic women to remove potential trends which might be due to a demographic shift over time. All values represent percents.
I think this data pretty well dispels the idea that women are wired to prefer to divorce and live alone later in life. A woman’s likelihood of being married remains surprisingly flat between ages 35 and 65. Only after age 65 is the percentage of women married on the decline, and this is driven not by women divorcing and remaining unmarried, but by them becoming widows and not remarrying.
The only caveat that I’ll add is that each age bracket represents a different group of women. So you can’t assume those in their 20s now for example will marry at the same rate today’s 30 year olds have. However, if there were a strong biological preference for women to divorce and remain unmarried around age 55 I can’t think of any reason why it wouldn’t show up in this data set.
Update: I now have data on 2009 US divorce rates per 1,000 married women by age.
Actually, they’re done with men around the time they hit puberty. Media and academic feminism has taught them to hate men and treat us as rivals, enemies, and inferiors.
Typically, American women follow three distinct relationship patterns:
1. Mid teens-mid twenties: Usually forming no meaningful relationships with men, but enjoying rejecting men for sport. Typically experimenting with lesbianism.
2. Mid twenties-mid thirties: Usually shacking up with some complete loser and maybe having kids with him.
3. Mid thirties-mid forties: Usually they find some desperate mangina who’ll pay for everything she’s done in the past. After about a decade or so, she cleans the poor dupe out in a divorce case and repeats step #2; now though as a liberated ‘cougar’.
Dalrock:
The survey you showed from the census doesn’t tell us how many of those married women were already in 2nd or 3rd marriages. That’s why the statistics on the divorce rate compared to the census figures don’t seem to square.
Mostly, whether women stay married after 55 or not probably depends more on the economic benefit they gain; because whether or not they are with a man (any man) makes little difference to them.
@Eric
The survey you showed from the census doesn’t tell us how many of those married women were already in 2nd or 3rd marriages. That’s why the statistics on the divorce rate compared to the census figures don’t seem to square.
The data does in some ways raise as many questions as it answers. As you said divorce churn where women divorced and remarried wouldn’t show up, so you can’t tell what percent of the “married” line represents first vs second or third marriages, etc. For that we need to look at remarriage stats, as I already have. It still raises the question of why the % divorce line falls starting around age 65. We know that remarriage is a difficult proposition at that age, so it would seem to be some combination of higher death rates for divorcées and maybe lower incidence of divorce past a certain age. I’m just guessing there.
There is a similar trend where the percent of never married people for men and women drops to very low values late in life. When I did my grey divorce series I compared this snapshot for two periods 10 years apart. It seems to not be a vestige of higher marriage rates in the past.
At any rate, the assertion in question that women have a preference to divorce and not remarry around age 55 seems to be clearly disputed by the data.
Yep, Women are not done with men at age 55. But men who are not already their husbands are done with them. Not many 55 year old women are going to get dates. And unfortunately for happily married women, by the time they’re 55, their husbands are at higher and higher risks of dying.
Another femimyth busted. Good work Dalrock.
Eric–
You sound like a bitter lower beta/omega SMP total loser. Your voice is annoying and hardly leadership quality to men; it’s repellent to most any half way attractive women.
There is some truth to 3, due to our feminist lobbied divorce laws and divorce industrial complex family law system. 1 & 2 are largely garbage. Most of the alphas that middle class and up hot girls go through in their 20’s aren’t complete losers. They are however unwilling to commit until they get a good lot older, and then with a hotter girl than most of those that he’s banged.
I read somewhere that a 60 year old man has more oestrogen than a 60 year old woman (post menopause). No idea whether that’s true. But certainly a lot of women especially that didn’t work whilst bringing up their children seem to get a new lease of life in their 50s/60s, whilst their husbands want a rest at the end of a working life (and who can blame them).
I wonder if any spike in divorce rates for women in the 55-66 age cohort is due to men retiring from work…the so-called “clinging leaves” phenomenon that Japan has had to wrestly with. All of the sudden these quasi-independent women have to deal with their husband around all day, messing up their flow.
[D: I don’t see the spike you are referring to.]
wrestly == wrestle
The real losers are people still credulous enough to believe there are women worth having in the US dating scene.
As for my annoying voice not being of value to men: I’ve posted on other blogs with comment ratings. Yet to see one where ‘thumbs down’ outpolled ‘thumbs up.’ People have suggested I start a blog too; although I’ve chosen not to.
As for being repellent to attractive women: I’ve dated quite a few attractive women (outside the Anglosphere); and don’t seem to be repelling them very much. In fact, it’s American women who repel me, so I don’t even bother with them.
This whole alpha/beta schmaltz is meaningless anyway. Women, in our culture, want inferior men; whether it’s the ‘thug’ (so-called alpha) or the metrosexual (so-called beta). Usually, it’s you ‘Game Theorists’ who wind up being the ones who are ‘played’. I’ve talked to plenty of Gamers out there who wound up on the receiving end of false accusations and child-support payments; never any one married to the kind of ‘hottie’ that most average street punks get!
Dalrock;
I’ll check out some of your previous studies on this. Another factor might be, though, that women tend to marry men older than themselves and men typically have shorter lifespans. This would also account for 55+ women staying unmarried. She may be receiving alimony from a previous marriage and an inheritance upon becoming a widow; hence no need to bother with re-marriage.
[D: Men’s shorter life span is spread out in the form of higher mortality throughout their lives. So by the time a couple lives to be 65 (him) and 60 (her), she is only likely to outlive him by a total of 6.7 years.
What you are saying about older divorcées not remarrying to conserve alimony makes some sense, but it doesn’t appear to show up in the data. Divorced women appear to either be dying at a faster rate than married & widows, and/or divorcées over 65 are remarrying faster than their married cohorts are divorcing.]
I agree the lack of desire is more a reaction to rejection. One thing to keep in mind is if the dating game is one where women have a hard time dating down in age and are open to dating men older and the older men are dying off over 55, then the pool that will find them attractive is diminished. Think a 35 yo can’t compete with a 25 yo? How are a 55 yo vs. a 45 yo?
I also question if women in their teens and early 20s aren’t already going to react and start marrying or having children earlier than the women of the last 15 years. Autistic kids and thousands of money fruitlessly spent on IVF by their aunts and older cousins might weigh on young women’s minds. HIV caused straight folks to change habits slightly, and who is to say the negatives experienced by women 35-50 right now who put off marriage and kids only to regret it will not influence the teens/early 20s young women?
Relevant article:
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article1575773.ece
“Yep, Women are not done with men at age 55. But men who are not already their husbands are done with them. Not many 55 year old women are going to get dates. And unfortunately for happily married women, by the time they’re 55, their husbands are at higher and higher risks of dying.”
When a single woman crosses the rubicon of five decades, the rationalization hamster starts doing an odd gavotte. The hamster is getting tired, after all. Women at that age can go three routes –
1. They completely give up on trying to find a relationship. It really doesn’t matter the reasons why, the rationalization hamster is still healthy.
2. They try to make an honest self-assessment of their value in the dating marketplace. The failure rate is high.
3. They get really, really desperate. I see many online dating profiles of women who are older than 55 yet still claim their age is 49.
I’m turning into an older, crankier bachelor myself.
My own experience suggests that while they may or may not lose interest, there will always be a subset of women who simply do not want to get married, for whatever reason. As their cohort ages, it is obvious that those among them who wanted a husband badly enough will make whatever compromises necessary along the way, and that the share of the “single and loving it” component will increase over time. That is why it actually got harder for me as I got older.
By the time I finally got married in my mid-40s to someone at the outer limit of her reproductive years, I was let go from my job just about the time she came home one day to announce “I’m pregnant!”
Fortunately, times were good enough that I was able to find something easily and we moved to (of all places) Dallas. I took the bus to work there and met a fellow commuter who was about my age, also originally from New York, and a fellow member of The Tribe. She had never been married, and when I told her about my wife and the new baby we were expecting, she shook her head, bit her lip and said “But what about your freedom?” Can you believe she was feeling SORRY for ME??!?!
And thus ends the Jewish people–not by Holocaust, but by feminism.
Postscript: Our son, the most beautiful boy in the world, is now almost thirteen and low functioning autistic. Instead of preparing him for his bar mitzvah we spend much of our time cleaning up the shit he smears all over his bedroom and bathroom. Such also is the price of children late in life. Thank you feminism for that too.
From a personal observation (don’t know why I know so many over 55s considering I’m 35) women over 55 are definately NOT over men. What is interesting though is that the ones that are over it are usually hung up on a past Alpha (often their husbands who passed away) and won’t entertain another man. The quality ones still have plenty of offers.
@Dan S
Relevant article:
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article1575773.ece
Good link, and another great example of the media selling divorce to women. Note the complete lack of statistics. How is it I have data and they don’t? The whole article was about 1 woman.
The intro is classic:
The headline should be: Women over 50 still initiate the majority of divorces, and menopause is a bitch.
Personal anecdote: a friend’s mother recently passed away. It was only a matter of weeks before her father (in his late 50’s) was receiving LOADS of attention from women his age. Some of the women were quite forward, offering to take him on cruises etc. He wasn’t on any dating sites, this was just in his small TX town and on facebook. He actually began dating again much sooner than my friend was comfortable with. Women over 50 or 55, in his experience, still wanted very much to have a man around.
Perhaps in your AARP data you have something on how likely a man of this age is likely to remarry. If it’s very high, that might indicate that there’s no shortage of womens’ interest at that age?
May I also point out in the article;
“Masters in Social Work.”
Those worthless degrees are the seeds of destruction of the West.
The majority of women over 55 who are “over men” are that way because few men have interest in them, I would guess. For every attractive women in that age range it’s more likely that a man will find 99 who are no longer attractive enough to turn the heads of most men their age. I do think that an alternative is for single women to be open to relationships with men 10 to 20 years older than them once those women reach middle age, which many women are. But the pool of available men is small because of life expectancy, as noted by other posters.
With vengeance, Mother Nature or Father Time make older women pay for their youthful good looks.
Dalrock:
I’m not sure whether earlier census figures reflected this; but it seems that in pre- feminist American it wasn’t uncommon for women over 55 to re-marry. I know my great-grandmother was widowed at 60 and remarried at about age 65; and some of my other older relatives even re-married after widowhood and even had children.
What I suspect is the current trends reflect the inherent misandry of feminism which sees men as a disposable commodity. Older generations of women seemed to want to continue marrying and raising families, even as they got older.
[D: I don’t question why a man or woman wouldn’t want to marry again after the death of their long time spouse. With that said, I think you may be misreading the chart. The point wasn’t that widows are done with men, but that the only drop later in life in women’s status as married came from causes beyond their control. If women wanted to divorce at 55, they would be doing so. The data shows otherwise.]
I have been following these posts about the non-marriageability of 30 year olds and it is freaking me out. The manosphere is making me co-dependent.
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Paige, it is freaking me out too. I am in the *ahem* back half of the twenties and I have been trapped in a dead decaying part of the country because of parental guilt and brokeness. I was the only person in my major in college who was able to find a job in the area, the rest all moved a minimum of 100 miles away.
My parents and grandparents would have me live in the same town where I grew up, even though the only males who live there are baby-daddy meth dealers. Just goes to show you that parents don’t always have their kids’ best interests in mind.
Items in no order:
My observations match those of Dex, have seen widowers over 70 mobbed by widows who wish to care for him.
As noted in a previous thread, the divorcees I have known over 50 were to varying degrees resigned to their situation; they were not over men, they just accepted that it was not likely there would be another one in their life.
I know a single mother with a 2 year old who married a man who also had a two year old. He works in a low level government job, but has good security. She’s a pleasant enough woman, who made a big mistake twice (the first child had some kind of health issue from birth and died young) yet managed to find a man to be loyal to. They have twins now. Although she had to move some 600 or so miles to marry, she did so. Now here is the kicker: these two lower-class white folks met via eHarmony. Neither one of them is good looking enough to be on the TV advertisements, but that doesn’t matter, they do have each other. So FWIW I have one (1) data point on the efficacy of eHarmony.
That newspaper article is a classic example of modern “journalism”; solipsism and a party line intertwined to sell more divorce to women.
Dalrock;
I would agree that women probably aen’t divorcing after 55 to remarry; but my point was that they are motivated by economic reasons for their choices today; whereas in the past they were motivated by other factors.
The overall trends from the statistics seem to indicate two things: women are marrying; but the divorce rate is constant. Out-of-wedlock births are increasing, but the overall number of divorces seems to be declining. What this equals is that alimony and child-support are more profitable than traditional marriage (at least for ONE gender, LOL).
Helvetica-
Don’t freak out…if you don’t have “baggage” such as kids or a divorce then you are ahead of the game. At worse you might have to adjust the ages you are willing to date. I know that men in their 40’s-50’s see women in their 30’s as relatively young. The irony is that men see women their own age as old as mold.
I think part of why widows tend not to remarry is due to the bond they had with the deceased partner. If you have been able to keep your marriage together for 20-30 years, odds are there is a strong bond there, that would be difficult to replace with another person. My wife has told me that if I died young she would probably remarry, so she had someone to help support her and the kids. But if we were older, she wouldn’t want to remarry. That seems to be the trend I notice with Widows, if they are young, they are more likely to get remarried, but once they hit a certain age, they don’t want to do that as much.
Dalrock asks, It still raises the question of why the % divorce line falls starting around age 65.
Women don’t divorce after 65 because Social Security benefits are higher when based upon husband’s income. Personal finance trumps biology.
Dalrock reads, Most divorces after the age of 50 are initiated by women. Why?
Many women stay in marriages for the benefit of their children. After children move on, the women divorce the husbands they’ve not loved in a decade. Children trump Self.
@jz
Women don’t divorce after 65 because Social Security benefits are higher when based upon husband’s income. Personal finance trumps biology.
The data doesn’t (directly) show the rate of divorce by age bracket. You are confusing being divorced with getting divorced. My question was where are the divorcées going? As I have shared before, 30 out of 1,000 woman age 45-64 marry in any given year. After age 65 this drops to 4 per 1,000. So why does the relative population of divorcées drop so dramatically after age 65? I agree that it appears that women in that age bracket must be divorcing at extremely low rates. But even if they stop divorcing altogether the remarriage rates wouldn’t seem to be enough to drive this trend.
Many women stay in marriages for the benefit of their children. After children move on, the women divorce the husbands they’ve not loved in a decade. Children trump Self.
This wasn’t my point. From the data it is pretty clear that women aren’t divorcing in large numbers at age 55. Since the percentage of women who are divorced remains flat at this age, it would seem that the divorce rate is likely very close to the remarriage rate (30 per 1,000 per year)*. Also, the article asked why women initiate most of the divorces at that age, forgetting that women initiate the bulk of divorces at any age.
*Edit: Actually it must be much lower than this because there are over three times as many married women as divorced women in that age bracket. So it must be more like 10 divorces for every 1,000 married 55 year old woman per year. This isn’t taking into account the higher mortality rates for divorced vs married women, which would bring the estimate of divorces per 1,000 married women back up a bit.
dalrock, blog fodder for you if you’re interested & haven’t looked at before.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/03/a-long-life.html
[D: Thanks for thinking of me and sharing that. From what I have found it appears that everyone agrees that those who stay married live longer, but the question is was it the marriage that caused better health or did the better health (or something correlated to it) keep marriages together? I’m not surprised they didn’t include any stats; I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone assert that divorce increases longevity for women. Certainly the US Census data seems to suggest otherwise. Where do all of the divorcées over 65 go? We know very few are getting remarried. Are they leaving the country?]
I have been divorced for over 15 years and only recently have decided to get back into the dating scene. Why did it take me this long? For me, my children came first. Now that they are out of the house or in college, it is my turn. The problem is that I have found very few men around my age who 1) have taken care of themselves physicially and therefore are not pleasing to the eye, 2) know how to communicate intelligently even after all this time and 3) aren’t full of themselves even at their age. Would I want to spend my time with someone like this, not really. While I would love to be in a healthy, caring and fun relationship with a man and even remarry, I have found the companionship of my women friends to be much more fun and intellectually satisfying. According to the data, it sounds like I am pretty normal.
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The idea that women feel in less need of a man after menopause isn’t all that implausible and it isn’t refuted in any straightforward way by an examination of how many of them divorce. Women may come to feel in a general way that getting and keeping a man isn’t worth the effort it once seemed to be.
I’m of the right cohort and it isn’t at all obvious to me why a woman would make sacrifices for the pleasure of my company and the opportunity to find stuff for me as I age if I’m not her kids’ Dad. It may be that the biological impulses that affect younger women continue — there’d need to be a reason for them to shut down immediately — but there’s no real reason to expect them to not dissipate, either.
The anecdotal descriptions of widowers beset by older women are more to the point.
I meant “find stuff for me as I age and show me how to turn off the goddam italics”.
@sefpyu
The idea that women feel in less need of a man after menopause isn’t all that implausible and it isn’t refuted in any straightforward way by an examination of how many of them divorce. Women may come to feel in a general way that getting and keeping a man isn’t worth the effort it once seemed to be.
I think I get your point. It is possible for example that the urge to divorce and the urge to marry are both lessened at around the same age. However, the original assertion was directly tied to divorce. So the data I presented is in fact directly relevant.
The question is not whether women over 55 lose interest in men. The reality is that few men have any interest in a women over 50. Maybe as a companion. Our culture is one of the few where it is assumed (falsely) that men should marry women of similar ages. We even have the delusion of the “Cougar” phenomenon. In most cultures men marry women considerably younger than themselves. especially in second marriages. There have been many scientific studies on this including one extensive one from of all places Sweden that found that the “perfect” age difference was the wife should be approximately 16 year younger. Western women, especially American feminist don’t want to hear this, There is lots of science to back this up http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17726515
I have read both the Female Brain and the Male Brain books by Dr Louann Brizendine. While I respect much of her work n the area of sexual activity she is in “la la” land. For example she states that on average a man wants 14 sexual partners in his life while a women wants 1 or 2. This is the same women who everyone is quoting on this over 55 stuff. In my company 85% of the employees and interns are college age females. My guess would be by age 25 the average American girl has had more then 10 sexual encounters. One or two in their life time? Be serious Dr Louann Brizendine!
May girls exceed that just from Bachelorette parties! The fact is the key thing to women’s sex drive is that they feel “desired” and few (very few) women over 55 are going to feel desired so it makes since that they should be losing interest in men, because men have lost interest in them a long time ago. Besides the husband they should be losing interest in should not be 55 he should be 67. And if he took care of himself and is successful he will have no problem upgrading to a newer model! No body said nature was fair or pretty all have to do is watch Animal Planet!
Dalrock: Fair enough.
Nonetheless, I’ve an interest in the issue: I was raised to think that women and men are pretty much the same, apart from the bumps. I’ve taken the red pill, or at least read and understood the package. I’m now heading once more into the breach. Once more. A woman roughly my age, say, 45-55, who isn’t looking to find a man who will invest in their children and give her sons who will disperse her genes widely, may not respond as younger women apparently do to being treated with, e.g., amused indifference, etc. Do shit tests decline after menopause?
Roughly, I’d rather not start treating women like crap at the precise moment they turn into human beings. If they do. (This omits some nuance, but you get the idea.)
A.R.: A while back Roissy posted statistics on the number sexual partners American women aged 15 to 45 have had: the median is a little under 3 and the mean is a little under 8.
Interesting discussion.
I am almost 65 and pass for 10-15 years younger than my age. I could probably date someone around 50 but I have always thought that a 10 year difference is the maximum spread for an enduring relationship. Both you and your partner must accept each other’s wrinkles and bags to be physically attracted to one another.
I just joined a few dating websites. I am amazed at what woman within my age bracket are seeking: “soul mate”, “mister right”, “travel companion” and other unrealistic expectations. I realize that many guys want a woman with a perfect body and a gorgeous face and preferably 20 years younger. But let’s get real. Neither of these older folks are going to find what they are looking for.
I guess Americans in general believe they have a bunch of options in their lives and many live in a fantasy world brought to them by the constant barrage from the media.
Me? I have never been married. I have had some relationships that lasted 4 to 5 years. After I broke them off, each time I felt I was released from jail. The pettiness, the accusations, the whining and the upward mobility climb just drained me. The last one was 15 years ago.
I don’t get lonely, since I am out many times during the week singing karaoke and playing pool, plus my cat is my best buddy.
I am investigating what is out there because I will be on Medicare in a few months. I realize I’m not getting younger. So far, I am not very impressed. Lots of very overweight women with unrealistic expectations wanting to settle down and not wanting to waste any time trying to find it. I guess you can’t blame them.
It should be a fun ride. I am definitely not expecting to find anyone I am very attracted to, much less marry. But if I don’t, no big deal. Being single and contented is so much better than being miserable with the wrong one.
I don’t what to say about the article but I enjoyed all the comments. I am 52 and have been married for 25 years, my husband is 80. I think it is better to be married.
Sometimes it can get boring but my husband tells me I have more personalities then Sybil so that keeps it going. As for other women I know who are around my age a lot are getting divorced or have got divorced I think it is a tough road ahead.
Anyway it helps to have a big house and four bathrooms. Besides who would get the dog.
I’m a 35 year old male. I gave up on finding a girlfriend years ago. I dated a few women that turned out to be not nearly as nice or as smart as I originally thought they were. I figure that I’ll be single for life, and can only pray that I’ll have a wife in the afterlife. Over the years, masturbation has fully satisfied me, and I don’t feel the need to seek out women for casual sex. I have a big problem with all these young women that either spend the prime of their lives rejecting men altogether, or sleep around with losers. I won’t marry one of those older women that forced good men to spend the best years of life alone. BTW, the “cougar phenomenon” is a Hollywood myth/fad.
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From my own anecdotal observations. My great grandfather lived to be 100. He was a widower at 70. Even in his 90s he had women in their 60-70 falling all themselves to “visit” with him. My dad is a widower (63) & their have been a steady stream of 50-55 year old women beating down his door before my moms ashes were cooled in crematorium. My mom and dad were together for over 40 yrs.
Also I noticed the woman in the UK article went back to her husband. If she had so many self fullfilling options why would she do that?
I have been divorced for over 10 years now and I fit the dreaded profile of the over 55 woman who has not remarried and doesn’t intend to. I now have full control of the remote. I can stay up all night and sleep in all day if I please. I can spend my money recklessly and only have myself to berate me for it later. I don’t have to cook unless I feel like it; I clean when I feel like it. I answer to no one but myself for the first time in my life and I am never lonely. In the beginning, I would have probably remarried if the situation had presented itself, because I was accustomed to taking care of people and having someone around. But I look at my “ex” and the problems he has with his blended family and I am glad I didn’t. When my children come home, they are truly home; there is no stranger here to make them feel unwelcome or uncomfortable. And if I feel the need to bond with someone, I go pick up one of my grandchildren; they are the loves of my life now.
I’ve been married for 30 years, but to a different woman than I first married. She has the same name and almost the same looks but she’s different. She has no libido, hates being touched except when she wants her back scratched (and it must be just right), is incredibly cranky, hates being around children, and considers it her right to spend all the money and push us into great debt. Completely different to the woman I married. There are no longer rational disagreements. If softly cornered by logic she’ll become inflamed. She is absolutely convinced she is a “victim” in all circumstances. I look at this woman and think, “Who is she?” and “What is she?” It all changed about two years after she had a hysterectomy, which was about 12 years ago.
Now I look back at our grandparents and parents and see a similar pattern. Late in life the husband (in general and remains married) becomes more compliant, subservient and quiet, while the wife becomes more intolerant, loud and cranky, especially if they’ve been married many years. The husband learns that logical responses to situations is met with anger and that he will never have the last word in any argument (to do so is considered as starting a new argument). Respectful silence and passive affirmative communication becomes his response or great verbal assault begins. Look at your grandparents (if they’ve been married a long time) and see if you agree.
I believe many women, when they are older than 50, lose the desire to have a mate. Since the libido is gone (which drives us to others physically) and since there is an absence of estrogen (which calms her troubled mind) she has no need of such a relationship, unless it is to take care of her.
Would I marry again? Why on earth would anyone do so unless they just enjoy taking care of someone who hates the thought of sex and can’t help being perpetually irritable? Besides that….sure!
A 61 year old male here. I am an executive with the same company for 32 years. Divorced when I was about 50. I look good for my age and have a great life. I find this article interesting as I have life experiences that direct my opinion on women 55-62 (62 oldest I have dated). If an old man wants sex, this is your crowd. It is like reversed roles as teenagers. Men (boys) could not get enough. Now these old women can’t get enough. It is the basis for their being. You can’t just go out for a nice date without being jumped. As men age, they think about sex, but they think about the woman being 30-45. I like ladies 55-60, but really, there is a very small handful that make you consider jumping into the tub and having a memorable night. We are visual creatures (men certainly are). Men know younger women are not attracted to them for their looks and simply make the decision to spend the bucks or just skip it. Most men will take the shot for a more youthful woman. Not all is lost for older women if they can just cool their jets. Older men appreciate the sidom and experience of an older play mate. But if the fun mate starts talking about be sexual and they prefer a passionate man. Step away from the table. I loveit when a 62 year old woman tells you her goal is to find her soulmate……Oh yeah, she was from the 60’s and still believes in astrology. Women of 55 are a really confused crowd…..and keep in mind, they are divorced for a reason…..Almost every woman I date has the same story and will share within 3 minutes of meeting. Their husband was not a loving husband and they rarely had sex. First flag…and here you are going god, I wish she was 35……I seldom run into a widow..men are living much longer, which is part of the problem. The older generation does not know how to act as role models were rare.
Good luck to all of us as we wade through the maze. One thing is for sure…there is an endless supply to try your luck with………Remember, I am referring to the misery of the single set. The married set have their on misery to deal with…………ha.
I lost my high school sweetheart just about 3 years ago – we were married right out of hs and had been married almost 37 years when he passed away after a long illness. My adult daughter keeps trying to set me up with men she knows (and THAT’S uncomfortable, lol) but I tell her I can’t imagine getting close to another man. I don’t know why the divorcees aren’t remarrying (unless their experiences with marriage were painful enough to keep them away) but I suspect many widows would rather live with the memories of a great marriage, assuming that kind of happiness can’t come twice.
I am 55 and got approached by two quite pleasant men of the same age today. However I don’t want a man in my life because I want to smoke in my house, put my shoes up on the sofa, spend all the housekeeping on a silk dress if I want or spend an entire weekend painting a canvass without being whined at about when I’m going to be finished. I have never had any man’s money or claimed alimony or child support. Not all women fit the cliches you are bandying around!
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My husband left me when I was 42. I was left to raise my two sons. He remarried and divorced a year and a half later. He remarried and has a daughter who is about 10 now. I did not date for nearly 10 years because I had to find a job and raise my sons…they came first. When I did date, I met several men who wanted me to raise their children while they went over the road driving or pursued their own careers. After several terrible dating experiences, I came to the conclusion that I was better to be on my own than trying to fit “their expectations” just to have companionship. I personally am now afraid to commit to a relationship and doubt that I will ever marry even though I am in long distance relationship with a high school friend. So personally I think some women after 50 think they need to enjoy their lives without having to take care of others.
Its my experience with dating sites that all men apart from very ancient ones, repulsive ones or weirdos, dont want any woman over 55, so its not that women are not interested in men, its just that they cant find any.! I am 64 am told could easily pass for 50, i have a young attitude and i dress trendily and am slim , i have many younger female friends in their 30s, 40s and 50s, they have no problem with my age,its not relevant , we socialize together, go shopping etc, but men seem to imagine once you hit 55 you become a wrinkled. sexless prune. I really wish now i had lied about my age, i could have gotten away with it, but i was truthful. i do get lonely, as i said i have good friends but they mostly have partners and sometimes that companionship of a partner i miss. I go to a single social group sometimes but the few men whe belong there all seem to hit on the under 55s. Are men egos so big they really thing younger women will want them, some of them i have to say although younger than myself, look a damm sight older.So i guess like most women over 55 i will have to except my situation, hard as it is, cause i dont think men are going to change anytime soon.
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We are just tired of all of the work that comes with being a woman these days and never getting any time to do what we want to do. It’s always time to go to work, and then come home, cook the dinner, clean up the dinner, and then make the men a treat while they watch TV. Of course this is after years of fitting in t ball practice supervising homework, brownie cub scout meetings teen angst, by age 55 we are done- with everything. I spend a good deal of time psyching myself up to do everything that still needs doing. Honestly all I really want to do is rent a hotel room or lie in a hammock somewhere where no one knows where I am.
I chuckle at this. My wife cooks only dinner about 1/3 and cleans up about the same amount. Make a treat…that happens about once a month. I help with all the homework. Brownies….come on. My happiest times are when she leaves to go compete with horse. But even then I have to help load and unload almost everything. She complains that I don’t come along and be a stable boy when she’s exhausted. The best time is when she’s gone and can’t reach me by cell phone…and there is peace…. Then I can go take a 12 mile run….and have time to watch some sports, yes, TV. Yes, it would be nice to have some lovemaking but that hasn’t really happened in years and never will again. This is not the woman I married…she disappeared long ago.
I’m 30. I’m a female. I already don’t want to be married. I have three kids. I’ve been with the same man for 10 years, married for 5 of those years. He’s 15 years my elder. I see him looking at girls that are 12-13 years old, and he says that that is normal. Maybe it is, but it doesn’t make it good. Think about this… yes, 12-13 year olds have reached puberty, but it takes at least a few years for their ovulation cycle to become regular. Meaning, that the chances of pregnancy that young are actually not as good as you’d think that they would be. I think that environment and how early men are exposed to sexual imagery determines who they’re attracted to. When primitive men were first developing attraction towards females, food was probably scarce… so she would be skinny, and possibly not have a lot of breast development. Does that make that the best possible choice for a mate? No, obviously not. She could die of starvation. Now, the sexual imagery… I imagine if we ask men, when they were first exposed to pornography, many would say when they were just hitting puberty, or high school. Their valid mate options at that time… girls close to their age. So, they have it in their head, when they’re developing that girls from the ages of 12-17 for instance are their valid mates. My husband admitted to viewing porn at the age of 12. What kind of girls is he attracted to? 12 year olds. I’d like to see studies done on this. Do I think that he is bad because of this? No. But he would be if he acted on the attraction because the girls are still developing, and he’s being selfish. Why? Because he’d die a lot sooner than she would, leaving her alone, to care for children, and by the time he did die, she wouldn’t be attractive to other males anymore, again, leaving her alone. Why do I want to divorce? Because I know that my worth, as a woman, isn’t much anymore. My husband wants a younger woman. I can bow out gracefully and let him have her, so long as it’s legal, and she takes responsibility of caring for the children. I’ve had health problems for a while, already, and honestly, I just feel too old to deal with this sh*t. And for those of you who think that sex is the problem, I have sex with him, even when I’m unwell to keep our marriage “happy”. So, sex can’t be blamed in this case. Do I ever intend on remarrying or dating? No. Men are too much trouble. And yeah, I know, some of you men are saying the same thing of women, but how would you feel if you were with me, and suddenly, you’re not valuable anymore because you’ve gotten older? My husband is older, and I love him just as much as I did when I met him, but it’s not the same for him.
A 45 year old attracted to 12 year old girls? Sounds like he’s a pedophile or has some sort of mental problems. Maybe he married you because you were so much younger than him, but now that you’re getting older, you’re no longer attractive? Either way, that just seems like trouble.
How can you love someone who thinks it is okay to look at preteens when he has a wife? I am worried about your statement about backing away if she would take responsibility for the children…would you honestly leave your children to a man who is so selfish..I doubt that they would be cared for …your man and new woman would be too busy satisfying their needs. If you have had health issues and he is looking elsewhere..that just proves how selfish he is.
I think you need some counseling to figure out this mess. I agree with Chels…your husband needs help if he is turned on by 12 yr old girls.
I found that after 2 failed marriages, I was reluctant to disrupt the life I rebuilt for myself. At 62 I find I tend to be attracted more to younger men, but then if he’s more than 10-12 years younger it feels uncomfortable. We have fewer common life expeneriences. There are few men within 5 years of my age that are interesting. The strong pull of sexual desire is just barely there any more. It is a bit of a relief, but alo a little dissappointing. I think the potential for an exiciting fling is there, but doubt it would last long enough for a serious relationship. I want to have friendships with men. I want to talk to them and go places with them. I’m open to the possibility of sexual love, but need to know a man longer than I needed 30 years ago. I also take longer to get aroused. I kind of wish I had been more like this when I was younger. I might have behaved more wisely.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/c646726371w74576/?p=67ad395f2e4f4086a7e4024725781874&pi=3
The age of consent is 13 in Spain.
Many women over 55 are looking for relationships for economic reasons. Most um-married men over 55 are divorced once or twice. The previous wives and children have everything already. The truth is these same men are looking for a 55= woman to support them.. As the old adage goes all the good ones are married or in the cemeteries!
Many women over age 55 will look for a relationship thinking she will find some one to “take care ” of her financially. Most man in that same age group are probably divorced once or twice. The previous wives and children already have the house and in many cases the man’s pension. Many men on the other hand are looking for the woman to support him….So as the old adage goes”All the good ones are married or in the cemetery”
I say take care of yourself…it is a lot easier than going through all that hassle to make someone take care of you. I feel sorry for you, Benny , if you think everything comes down to money. I would hope that a relationship would be built on caring and communication but then according to so many posts on here….next year I will be hunting for a caretaker. LOL!!!!!!!!
First off, cuddos to Kate and Cynthia! It’s funny how most of the men on this post think that they have all the answers as to why women over 55 aren’t getting married again. I’m 61 but can pass for 40. I’ve been divorced more than once – by choice, and remained single 9 years – by choice. I’ve had more than my fair share of marriage proposals in the past 9 years, but date them long enough, and the truth eventually comes out. The majority of men out there over 45 are single for a very good reason. The ones in their 40’s and some in their 50’s are looking for someone to help raise their children. No thanks! Been there – did a great job of raising my children, but you’re on your own with that one. I’ve yet to meet one divorced man out there who wanted the divorce. So, what does that tell you? The women instigated the divorces – just like I did. Most men are still little boys. Men also think very highly of themselves and believe they are in high demand and honestly believe that every woman they meet is after them. They can be one of the most unattractive men on the planet and truly believe that they deserve a beautiful 30 year old. Delusional! Also, it’s amazing how a man’s self esteem is not affected by their looks or income. As a whole men are self-centered and very critical of older women. Which brings me to another observation…most 50-55 year old men look much older than their female counterparts. Finally, it’s all about them…period. I’m not bitter, just wise. I’d much rather curl up with a good book than have even a first date with a man who still hasn’t learned how to appreciate and treat a woman. And by the way, that happens to be the majority of single men out there today. And as to “The Player”…well your name says it all, doesn’t it? Men like you are the main reason women like me choose to remain single!
@Kelli
Just a small typo in your last sentence. I think what you meant was:
No need to thank me!
@ Kelli:
Two phrases:
Entitlement princess.
Wildly overinflated view of her own SMV.
The vast majority of women aren’t done with men later in their lives. The data doesn’t lie. Sure, you have a few damaged, beaten down people of both sexes looking to avoid the opposite sex, but in the main this is not the case.
When will women learn that internet anecdotes are insufficient to disprove actual statistical data?
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dragnet: women want men later in life. They just can’t get and keep them.
dragnet: women want men later in life. They just can’t get and keep them.
Of course they want men, but to make themselves feel better, they say they don’t need/want one if they can’t get one.
now you’re catching on, chels.
I disagree with a few things that I have read. My ex wanted a divorce…he is married for the third time. My sons are 21 and 19,,,he also has a daughter with his third wife. His daughter is about 10. He spent little time with his sons though I encouraged him to be part of their life. I did not have much time to date after he left us. I raised the boys and worked full time. The few men I did meet were looking for mothers for their children. If I was to be in another relationship…it would to be a mutual friendship and caring for one another. I don’t need anymore responsibilty.
I was happily married for 20 years. My husband died suddenly when I was 44, he was 46. It has taken me probably 4-5 years to feel like I’m getting back to a “new normal”. I have dated just a few guys, usually only one or two dates. I was in a somewhat dysfunctional relationship off and on for 3 years. The guy had charm. However he had another side: heavy alcohol abuse, a liar, impulsive, terrible with money. Although I haven’t really maximized my chances to meet men, I haven’t seen or met many quality guys that are single. I’m sure they are there, but maybe they don’t want to hassle with dating either. Too much work. It’s not that the married ones are great. I’ve heard some stories. I’m sure the women are just as bad. I think people, all people, think they can do better, think they deserve better. No one wants to settle. Plus many boomers are complete wackjobs.
As I read this blog I had to laugh…,as a 58 year old, who looks younger (or so I have been told, even by my doctor); I just got braces to correct my overbite. Many of my friends are divorced as their husbands cheated on them; even though their former wives are beautiful, in shape, fun and active woman. All of the woman initiated the divorce once the affair was discovered. Most of their husbands begged to come back home, but the cheating was too much for their former wives. Some of the woman have remarried or are engaged. Some have become, “Man Haters!” Almost all of their ex-husbands have a strained or non-exsistant relationship with their grown children.
I have a handsome, inshape, family based Husband. He is over worked and worries about our finances to retire on. We have a good sex life…,but the spice is all but gone. I know the grass isn’t greener on the other side…..,but since modern technology (Facebook, cell phones, internet, etc.) I have had contact with several old boyfriends. All contacts were their initiations. I started getting all kinds of compliments & them bitching about their dried up spouses. I had to drop my Facebook Acct. & cut off all communication with these men.
I think men are still interested in woman their age as they have more in common…,but many of their wives have cut them off in the bedroom and let themselves go. Not to say many men aren’t the 20-something they once were either. I believe it’s all in the Spice between 2 married individuals. Woman need Romance and Men need Sex on a regular basis. Even though it’s unfair….,Woman have to work to maintain their looks and Men have to maintain an income. Viagra probably has really changed the playing field allowing older men to seek younger woman, who are more interested in their finances than the man’s looks.
Even though it would appear I have the perfect marriage…..,at times I love to hear all the compliments and interest of men when I have work out of town. No wonder men are tempted when traveling…..,especially if their wives have stopped having sex with them 10 to 20 years ago! In my case….,I have to make a conserted effort to, “Spice-up,” my relationship with my Husband as if I was a 25 year old! I have to find that, “Spark,” in our marriage and take care of my Man with a generous heart.
As a post note….,just because an old girlfriend seems mildly friendly and interested in your current life in a platonic way; it’s sooooo creepy to assume that opens the door to sex-texting and sending lewd photos of your 59 year old body…..,ewwww; yuck! Lesson learned; I’ll stick to communicating with my girlfriends and cherish what I have at home!
Life isn’t fair, but the choices you make can forever change the Journey. Make good choices and treat your spouse like you were still in your 20’s & 30’s and with alittle luck the 2 of you won’t have time to check out the neighbor’s grass. Or you married a jerk/bitxx (or) you married tooo young!
I am 61 and have been married for over 33 years to a man 5 years my junior. I would love to leave him and have my own life but I am afraid. No , I am not worried about money, I am independently wealthy . I am not worried about getting remarried (you couldn’t convince me of that for anything). I am worried about one of our daughter’s who is mentally challenged. I think she would find the whole thing devastating. I don’t care at all about male company, and don’t really see it any differently from female company since I have no interest in sex.
I am overweight and tired. I am worn out by taking care of everyone but me, and having no one take care of me. And my husband is a nice guy , considered nice by everyone else too, intelligent and artistic. He is just boring and needs way too much attention to him, as opposed to what he is willing to put out for me. (I don’t mean sex-I mean work and not for money) I mean, he is a homebody who has no interest in wandering, while I feel I have spent almost 30 years being stuck taking care of him, his parents, our kids especially the handicapped one, while he was out doing his “art”. He had serious chronic health problems that I navigated for him for 30 years, finally last year he got an experimental procedure that saved his life and basically cured his illness. Now he has energy for all the stuff he couldn’t do for his art when he was sick. He doesn’t care that I want to wander and travel as he agreed we would.
So, I want to leave but I am afraid–but not financially. I was never supported totally by him. When we were young we both worked. I worked when our oldest was little (despite our agreement that he would stay home while I finished college as I had stayed home while he did –he lasted a week and I never got to finish) our second child was born with brain damage . So I was unable to return to full time work after that.( I did however do unpaid full time work in the school system for her, with her and for other special needs children for over 20 years). During this time I inherited a large amount of stock and have supported both of us for most of the past 20 years as my husband was constantly incapacitated with illness. So i took care of him, his parents and our kids most of the time.
So now I want to do what I want to do. I have compromised and done it his way for 30 years with him always promising my turn would come. It never did. As for sex. He was a sex addict for the first 15 years of marriage. He always wanted one more sex act. We could have sex three times a day for 15 years , all sorts of sex, yet he would insist on one more sex act, any one, that I didn’t want to do because it was painful. Nothing was every enough. Then he started accusing me of having affairs every time I got interested in anything. A monthly poetry group, a writers workshop, anything I liked was suspect. He on the other hand was with women all the time at art shows etc etc. I was never invasive or jealous, as I trusted him.
He on the other hand made it so I had to quit everyone. He finally had an affair. I caught on after he had ended it. (we were still having sex then at least once a day) After that I made him get an HIV test . He said it was negative and denied the affair. (the woman wrote me a letter and he had admitted to a year of heavy petting while they were alone in his studio(yeah right alone adults a year no “sex” phooey). I didn’t care anyway, but by then I had had early menopause and sex was painful and caused infections, so if he wanted to pout ? fine.
So tell me, why would I want to have a sexual relationship? For one thing you are wrong about finding a man. I am overweight and not great looking, and I have no trouble at all attracting men. Just a few weeks ago a fairly famous poet, four years my junior hit on me. I pretended it wasn’t happening and didn’t give him anything to go on. I mentioned my husband and kids and still he kept it up for weeks. He is financially well off, very popular with younger women, yet he was attracted to me and to my writing. He invited me to do a reading at a very prestigious venue and I said, sorry I couldn’t. So I think you put a whole lot of stock in youth that isn’t necessarily there, Intelligence and talent are still attractive to many intelligent attractive men. I would rather just be friends,
So, I would say Eric, that you are just one bitter little man who got his fweewings hurt by some nasty woman? But from how you react maybe it was justified? Most of my women friends in their late 50s – 70s could care less about having a “man”. They are not lesbians, they just want to be on their own to do what they want for a change. To say it is about feminism in a bad way is kind of babyish. All feminism means is that women are actual people just like men. Most women did the family thing, and then it was over and they wanted to do something else. If their husbands would go along I think many might stay. But once you have raised kids, taken care of aging parents, and see your own mortality closing in, the idea of taking care of a hubby who just wants to sit around the house , just doesn’t cut it for intelligent, curious, inquisitive and adventurous women. They have had enough of stroking someone’s ego to last a lifetime.
I’m a 55 yr. old widow, I lost my wonderful husband unexpectedly 12 years ago, he was 44yrs.young, and I had just turned 43. We had 3 grown children & a 5 month surprise baby when he passed. I knew she was my life & pulled me through it all. I don’t think I ever looked up to see how fast my life was going. Then at 50 I realized I was still single, I decided I wanted a Man in my life. Now I’m 55 and I often wonder If its still possible, I’ll get to the point…I met up with a long lost friend who I would see about every 5 years or so, ( he is a year younger than me) we always
greeted each other very nice, and guess what? The SEX is great, I often say; he’s not there when I want him, and I’m there when he wants me, and it’s exciting, he keeps me guessing, No he’s not married or in any other relationship, we are having fun, he makes me smile, I make him laugh. and remember THE SEX IS WOW! who knows how long this will last , but guess what I still got it, I know he still Loves it, he’s the one who told me Sex keeps You Young, glad I took his advice, 55 is my prime, I still can’t decide about getting into a serious relationship, cuz Life is Fine with me right now.
There is a really cool book, you might want to check it out called “Cupid’s Poisoned Arrow” by Marnia Robinson. It is about love and relationships. I think knowing what we know as older women, it really makes sense. I am happy for you. GO with it . Why not?
[D: I’m familiar with the author. She thinks the problem with sex is the orgasm feels really good and makes you want more of it with your partner later. Her solution is sex without orgasm (male or female). Talk about a colossal shit test…]
“[D: I’m familiar with the author. She thinks the problem with sex is the orgasm feels really good and makes you want more of it with your partner later. Her solution is sex without orgasm (male or female). Talk about a colossal shit test…]”
You obviously are not that familiar with the author or the work, because that is exactly what she is NOT saying. She is not saying that orgasm makes you want more, I am afraid you totally missed the boat on this one. What is this shit test you are talking about? and who are you?)
the Point of Cupid’s Poisoned Arrow is to keep sexuality alive in relationships. It talks about the honeymoon period where all is HOT and about why with habituation we lose it (In neurochemical terms). You may not find it interesting whoever you are, but I think people who are in long term relationships with family and kids would be really interested in ways to spice up their love life that don’t involve hookers or saran wrap.
@Jane Wilder “What is this shit test you are talking about? ”
Read up, Grandma:
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=012644550291300250250%3Aw9n1a7sp0ny&ie=UTF-8&q=shit+test&sa=Site+Search#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=shit%20test&gsc.page=1
Happy New Year, maybe you should really read Cupid’s Poisoned Arrow and lose the desperate attempt to remain young on the outside forever–cuz everyone who lives long enough looks old. I looked up the shit test. Big freaking deal. Asking a question to judge the reaction? Seems like a good idea to ask questions if you are considering a relationship?
I finally talked to my husband about how bored I was with our life. It was intense for a few days as he felt very threatened. Being admired by salesmen doesn’t do it for me. I need to be involved with politics and culture and the arts to be happy. I am a published writer and a well received artist, so I am sure you and I run in different circles. My husband was a great father. Our kids are grown now. I don’t feel badly at all about being called grandma, you should live so long and still be married and not losing it all to some nip and tuck quack.
“I finally talked to my husband about how bored I was with our life.”
A spinning hamster is worth a thousand words.
@ya boy matt:
yup “boy” says it all. no concept of conflict resolution that works.
Jane Wilder
I’m sorry, but you’re absolutely deluded, and no one should take you seriously–after all, you’re the one bragging about how great it was to be a slut. And you’re 60+, which just makes me feel sorry for you.
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/defining-sluthood/
You know, the whole slut thing is kind of funny. Men always think that sluts are easy, and being used. It never occurs to them that maybe these so called sluts are young women who like sex and variety too. I did.I loved sex when I was young . Why not? It is fun, feels good and I never felt used. I could choose who I wanted to have sex with. It was great. I didn’t have to choose the alpha guys if I didn’t want to, and mostly I didn’t cause they were terrible at sex. The beta guys were better, and you know what? Everyone was going around saying how the guys were using me, but I thought I was pregnant a few times, and it was the guys who were supposedly “using me” who were dying to marry me. I didn’t want to marry anyone, and was happy when the pregnancy scares resolved, but maybe liking sex with variety doesn’t make a young, not ready to be married woman a “slut” who is viewed as garbage as much as you all seem to think. There were plenty of jealous women who were being told sex is bad sex is bad, save yourself, who then , once married never could get over that nagging feeling that sex was dirty, and turned out to be headache prone, frigid women, who only had sex every so often to keep their marriageable man in line–I would hate to be a man married to a woman who is of the really good faker genre. Of course many might not even know their wives really hated sex as they had been trained (like seals) to flap their flippers, but someone who is really good at sex, is usually someone with practice, just like with most things.
[D: Good find. This woman has gone from proud slut to denying her husband orgasm when they have sex.]
@TFH:
What benefits does my husband gain from being married to me:
He finds me attractive and loving. He enjoys my company and intellect. We read many books together and talk about them, and the ideas they trigger. I do all the financial work as well as bring in most of the money. He was injured when he was in the USAF over thirty years ago now. I took care of him through excruciating pain that was almost constant and got worse over the years until about a year ago when he had an experimental procedure, that I found for him by researching. He had two surgeries. One was 15 hours and the other 12 hours. Even after a month in the hospital we were required to stay in Cleveland (oh boy) for another month. During that month I carried his bloody pee bags, changed his dressings, washed the holes in his back that sometimes peed and bled at the same time for over 30 years from hospital to hospital. I never complained, I tried hard to make it as homey as possible for him by decorating the room for the holidays and getting him holiday clothes to wear over his tubes and bags. I have always helped him with his work. When he had an opening for his work, I made the food, the fliers, put out the press releases, all so that he would have a positive experience.
We have one child who is handicapped. He loves the way that I have made her life possible in ways you probably wouldn’t understand , while keeping the house a safe and comfortable place for our other child and my husband. I worked while he went to college so he could devote himself to his studies which he loved. He loves the way I look and smell and speak, he loves my intellect, my kiss. He loves me for me. He benefits from feeling love and feeling the love he gets from me.
He benefits socially, financially, emotionally, and physically from being married to me. He loves the way I care for him, our kids our home and our pets. He loves it that I am smart and interested in things beyond boob jobs, and face lifts and whether the UPS man flirts with me or not. He loves my work . (I am a writer) He loves my art. I am a painter. He benefits from my artistic nature and talents.
He benefits from the time I give him to do the things he wants to do. He likes to throw pottery and make ceramic murals and sculptures, he also likes to hike , fish , and do archery. I give him time and space to do what he loves.
He likes how I have done my share and more to help out with his parents and sister and other family members when he could not. He likes it that I have been loyal and faithful to him for well over thirty years. Yeah, I am over 60, what does that mean to you?
To me being over sixty means I made it to this point. I know many who did not. I have been married mostly happily for over 30 years as well. I don’t think people can understand the frustrations and rewards that people go through who are deeply committed and deeply frustrated. It is really inevitable that stressors will make for ups and downs.
I think the key to long term success in marriage, is talking. Simple yes. Easy, no, not hardly. But you have to.
So how long have you been married and what does your spouse benefit from you???
@Chels:
How long have you been married and how can you show that my enjoying sex as a teen-ager hurt my married life? As a matter of fact it made it really clear that marriage was NOT all about sex. But sex was fun. What you think teenagers have sex because it isn’t fun? I liked sex. I have noticed that most of the girls who didn’t want to have sex when thy were young and saw it as slutty and dirty had a hard time transitioning to 30 years of sex with the same person after they got married. They had guilt and headaches. Their husbands were frustrated by their fear of sex as a dirty thing. If someone tells you only bad girl sluts like sex for long enough , even when you get the ring on your finger the doubts seem to remain for them.
For me, by the time I married my husband and had kids I already knew that marriage was not primarily about sex. That sex is just one part of marriage. Why are you so afraid of 60, 70 , 80? COnsider the alternative, death, before you get to experience life in different decades. Nah, 60 is time to do all the things you couldn’t do when you were raising a family. Things that seem important at 20. 30. even 40 or 50 don’t seem that earth moving at 60. There are so many new things to discover. Looks fade, or if you are lucky become just backgound noise. Intelligence, compassion, truth, and an interest in being alive? They are just freed up.
I love my husband, but if he just wanted to sit in the house, I would not be happy. I deserve to be happy just like everyone else. Women who have raised families deserve to have some interesting adventures in their 60s-100s. Why not? Why shouldn’t one expect their husband to be concerned about their welfare.
Slut is just a word, and a pretty ignorant concept at that.
Read Cupid’s Poisoned Arrow. It really might help you.
[D: I don’t have to read her book; I’ve read her blog. The woman is an anti orgasm fanatic. Look at the reviews for the book and you will see that I am right. Clearly you haven’t read it or you would know that what I wrote above is absolutely correct.]
There you have it TFH, she’s read BOOKS!
Incidentally, how old were you when you had your daughter?
I could tell you were not a fan of books TFH. My kids were born when I was 32 and 38. I had another child who died when I was 22.
Hi, I think it all depends on how good the man is to you along the way. My husband was absolutely abusive to me all the way for 38 years and still going on. Half of that time I was the breadwinner. I was raised differently to him. We don’t get divorced. We are kind and our family is gregarious and they look out for one another. The black sheep in the family are usually more fondly tended to than the rest. But I married into a hard of heart family – I think people can be sociopaths without being the criminal kind. He just doesn’t care at all, not for his children, not for me – but he so needs me in his life. I need to fill in forms, do everything he is not adept with. Married too young, did not have the time to suss out anything. I reckon if you marry kindness you will stay interested forever and want to be with that person. Too much unkindness abounds. I do not believe that there’s two sides to a story – there’s a guilty party and an innocent party. No-one’s perfect, to be sure. But bullies abound, hence the lack of a need for them later. You’re really talking about boomers, and that’s exactly my point. Many of them, because of their rebelliousness from the outset became unkind, self righteous, people, horrible to be around. Why were my parents – the GI generation, so happy till the end – and kind to each other?
There are lots of different ideas here and also lots of the same ideas; some convoluted, some marginally radical. Let’s try a simple approach shall we ladies?
We are social animals and thus, we need to socialise; fact. And when I say; ” socialise, ” I mean it in it’s most confined sense; the human touch and compassion. In other words; we have a need to feel like we belong; we need to feel the loving touch of a person that we know cares about us.
And this response is irrespective of whether or not we have had an enjoyable time before with our previous partner(s).
A woman at 55 years old and above, will probably have let herself go – and this ladies is most certainly an unattractive ( in every sense of the word ) prospect for most men. Men deal in beauty; and although beauty is a matter of perspective; we need to find our lady friend attractive; fact! Twenty stone in weight and short cropped hair like a twelve year old boy, is most definitely at the lower end of what most men would accept as an ideal suitor. Before you ‘ go on one ‘ and start calling me; ” shallow; ” you must accept that we are driven ( as males ) to females that we find attractive; and that normally, ordinarily, means a younger, less weightier, longer haired counterpart.
Women have their hair cut short, because they themselves have lost interest in making an effort, they pile on the pounds and it instantly becomes a huge turn-off. This ladies, is a possible reason as to why women in their mid to late 50’s; ” prefer ” to stay alone. It’s not because of some convoluted idea or a many faceted variable; it’s simple because men aren’t showing any interest; or at least men in their own age bracket. Men older, don’t have long for this world and aren’t really a viable option. What good would it do for a 55 year old lady to accept the advances of a 65 year old male; when she knows that just as she is building a bond with him, he goes off and dies on her?
If a woman has lost interest in her appearance and in the way in which she presents herself ( in the wider scheme of things ); then it’s not really to difficult to conceive the idea that a man isn’t interested either; for the exact same reasons. If a 55 year old lady has kept herself in shape and looks every part a ‘ classy lady, ‘ then no matter what any chart says; she will not be short of men vying for her attention; that ladies, is fact.
In conclusion then and in it’s simplest format: Two 55 year old woman; both single. One of these women is of a larger set build with short ” manageable ” hair and the other lady; well she has kept herself in shape and has enough hair as to be able to do something with it; something that helps to ‘ catch ‘ the eye of men… In it’s simplest format ladies; yes; it’s down to appearances. If YOU can’t be bothered about YOU, then neither can we. Simples; squeak! 😉
Feminism is garbage. Pure garbage. My wife cheated on me and then cleaned me out in divorce court. All I did was support her. She never worked. Disgusting. I was a loyal husband. The divorce laws cause divorce and cause women to leave. The marriage contract is worthless. A contract to sell a used tire is more enforceable.
Thinking about what was done to me makes me sick. And these aging women do it with impunity. They can say whatever they want in court–they get away with it. They want their cake and to eat it also: (1) old fashioned damsel in distress and the commensurate divorce laws that go along with that (2) and the modern notion of Feminism. They get it both ways. There are more women in medical college and law school than men–but they are the so-called discriminated against group.
Feminists and their filthy divorce lawyers are immoral. All the garbage learned in college has caused a breakdown of values. And Feminism is at the lead of the pack. How sad.
I have seen it all in the law. Divorce law is the lowest form of garbage. Whatever the hatred is of lawyers, when it comes to divorce law, it is accurate.
I am a little put-off by the proclamations that all young girls “are sluts” or just “wnat to have fun”. This isn’t true, and in fact many studies find a correlation between promiscuity and mental problems. This is also based on my anecdotal experience, in that after a pump-in-dump, most girls I see are in fact quite depressed.
As Roissy, Dalrock, and contributors at the Spearhead have explained ad nauseum, most women aren’t promicuous by nature – they’re *hypergamous*. This means they must compulsively have sex with men they perceive as being higher status than they are – or, if they’re in a relationship, than their boyfriend/husband is. Now, hypergamy made sense back in hunter-gather societies of 50-150 people that had strict regulations on behavior. But in our modern, individualistic society, it often results in promiscuity.
Im 50 and a widow….. no freakin way I’m done…… Perhaps they get discourage and quit looking, or have bad marriages, and say NEVER AGAIN!!
Well, seeing that most men are done with most women by 40 it makes since biologically that older women have no more interest in men, doesn’t it? Nature is most merciful in this regard. Why allow women to pine away for men who don’t want them anyway and are chasing women in their 20s and 30s?
[D: Men aren’t done with loving wives by 40. If this were true the rate of divorce would increase as wives age, but in fact exactly the opposite occurs.]
I am a widow 61 years old or young …..however you would like to vew it…. I lost my husband two and one half years ago… we were happy and loved one and another……I have had a gentleman who is 60 (previously married to a woman 14 years younger) pursue me for almost a year….I never saw a man go to such lengths to make a woman notice him…(It has been kind of fun… I do like him….but not ready to let him know how much yet),,,,,,,,I have had a young man of 43 ask me out.. he tells mutual friends….”I am just wayy too cool and more fun then any woman he has ever met”….. I recently had a guy 54 suggest we should start dating…to which I politely declined……….I also have a friend who is 63 (and quite rich) hint that he believes we could be a great match……In short I think,,,, and it is only my opinion…that how you act, look, feel and love are all related to who you attract….I would not love a man who was so shallow he didn’t consider a persons heart as well as their looks…but, in saying that….. I do believe you should look your best…. I work out several times a week, wear a ponytail and a baseball hat many days….(or a ball gown as I am wearing tonight) and have a bounce to my step… I am athletic, go kayaking, walking, dancing and Just Enjoy living life and having fun…..A Lady who is fifty recently told me she was on one of those dating sites and how the 60 to 65 year olds are all over her to meet….. I really had to laugh….he is eleven years my junior and I am sure a very nice person…but weighs close to 250 lbs….has major health issues and I am sorry to say probably would be considered to be rather homely….according to her…. a woman of my age wouldn’t be sought after on those dating sites……..I guess I can understand that…because I certainly wouldn’t want to be saddled with some old, fat, lazy, worn out guy…(as many men and women in their late fifties or sixies are ) .but I do know I would like to be with someone closer to my age…. Anyway…. I am going to give the 60 year old just a wee bit more time to see what he can come up with next and if he is still making me laugh….. I am planning to “have my way with him” and maybe line him up for being my next husband… hopefully the last one of my life..(and I will do my best to adore him and make him the happiest man on earth)…….I believe being married and being in Love is the Best Gift God can give us…I would hope to have that one more time in my life…For the last time…But, if he doesn’t work out and the right person doesn’t come along… I will still be happy … We only get one life I am not planning on wasting it……… Best of luck to everyone still looking for love……..and if you really want to be adored….maybe you should consider a person close to your own age….who didn’t walk away from a marriage but stayed until the “death do us part” ending………….
Ps… I wouldn’t say I am beautiful or even all that pretty (well maybe a little bit) but I do have a strength of character and a Love for Life……..and a good hearty laugh!!!!
Data means nothing to me, but I have a lot of experience with women over 55. A woman at 55 truly is at the point of decline in most cases. If a woman has some money via divorce or family, she is very protective of that nest egg and is not different than a man about protecting it. The new factor now is the terrible economy. If I meet one more “real estate agent” I may shoot myself. This is no longer a viable job. Most women I date 55 and older are bigger players than any men I have ever known. Most are broke and beginning to panic about how they will live. You have to just be cool and you will find out what she really wants. Biggest red flag is the word…”soulmate”. At 55 if they are still looking for that, send them out to sea as fast as possible. Most of the ladies I date over 55 are looking to remarry. I am talking about 99.0% and most start by saying, “if I meet the right man”. My biggest problem is that most women over 55 are just not that appealing. For that reason alone, my interest in dating has started to dwindle. In my opinion, there are going to be a handful of women that will be able to manipulate some fool into marriage, but most will hit 60 alone and really, who in their right mind wants to be married at 60. Probably both men and women at 60 want to be left alone to enjoy their last days doing exactly and only what they want to do…..I just turned 60 and my “newest girlfriend is 57”. She looks pretty good, is active, retired with a pension. The only thing that scares me is she often tells me I am the most wonderful man she has ever known…arrggg. Six months and she has never brought up the M word. So my advice to women that do not want to sit home every night…stay away from the M word and just let the fool swallow the hook before you jerk it. Never mention taking it to the next level…bad bad idea. In my opinion, women 55-60 have about a 1% chance of landing a partner before total lack of interest sets in. I base this information on my dating about 70 women 55-58.
Comments have been entered below. I will re-enter those statements. I feel that you have been biased as NON-HISPANIC WHITE FEMALES are not the only females that exist. As a result, I feel that your research is racially motivated and unrealistic, especially since they aren’t the only females God made. To me, you can’t be objective because you are displaying a form of being Male Chavinistic. Your research is an insult to all females including the population you used to disgrace. You make then sound as though they are only good enough to receive your sperm and satisfy your sexual urges or lust. What about a 55+ female and her intellect? Does it count for anything except to be ready as a sex tool? Are you saying that woman is made to be good enough for a sex tool, and, when she is a Senior-Citizen she has no value? Seems more a description for the male especially since the commercials literally are begging men to get some VIAGRA for ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION!! How about the women of significance in your life; do they fit the same mold as those in the research as told to you by their significant other? I want to suggest that you go back to the Bible in Genesis, check the age factors of Sarah and Abraham. It will probably amaze you to see how much Feminity Sarah had when she conceived Issac. Look in the New Testament and see where John the Baptist father was dumbfounded, couldn’t speak because he didn’t believe the Angel of God who told him that his elderly wife would conceive, and, bring forth a son. Based on her and his age, he didn’t believe God could do that. As a sign of what God could do, John’s father was made unable to speak until John was born. There was a big family dispute as to what his name should be, and, everyone looked at him wishing he could speak; there was a pause, and, someone asked him out of courtesey, and, for the first time since he and his elderly wife had an answer. He said his son was to be named John after what the angel had told him to do. So you nor any article can judge the desires of a woman of 55+ or a male of the same age. They may have adjusted to their lives without active sex due to their health status. Finally, if they are widowed, they may feel they can’t find another spouse like their deceased one, so they adjust to another form of enhancing their lives. Without a doubt, a large majority of them devote themselves to the LORD JESUS IN THANKING GOD FOR SENDING HIS SON TO BE A SACRIFICE FOR THE SINS OF ALL MANKIND!!!
Hi all good discussion. I have noticed a trend since my father turned into his mid sixties and now mid eighties. He has found women who dont really want to get married but do want P/T companionship . They both keep their own places and seperate lives so they can enjoy their individual hobbies and friends. They go together during many times of the year to take trips and cruises together. They seem to enjoy each others company while having a lot of fun together..
Some of Donalds points are true. My father and his live apart girlfriend have been together 12 years and they have a lot of fun together, taking trips and cruises all over the world. They have their own places and own finances and they wouldn’t think of marriage. They need their time away from each other to spend time with friends and hobbies. They have a lot of fun together and seem very happy. Why get married after 60? unless your codependant and your looking for someone else to take care of you.
I will be turning 55 in March and am divorced, mother of an 11 year old (yes, I had him later on..). I work full-time as an academic and only plan to stop when the mental facutlies decline to the point when I can’t do the work. My son’s father moved out of the country and only sees our son once a year. I work full time and parent full time and therefore do not have the time to cultivate a relationship. From reading these posts, I think I better resign myself to permanent single hood as clearly no man will want me. Fifty- five is looking more depressing every day.
“We are just tired of all of the work that comes with being a woman these days and never getting any time to do what we want to do. It’s always time to go to work, and then come home, cook the dinner, clean up the dinner, and then make the men a treat while they watch TV. Of course this is after years of fitting in t ball practice supervising homework, brownie cub scout meetings teen angst, by age 55 we are done- with everything. I spend a good deal of time psyching myself up to do everything that still needs doing. Honestly all I really want to do is rent a hotel room or lie in a hammock somewhere where no one knows where I am.”
I hear this from women ALOT. If a woman is happily married at 50 plus then of course she isn’t done with men because she loves her husband. However if she is widowed, or more likely divorced, then they are done with men as live in partners but are open to f*ck buddies or short term relationships in which they DO NOT live together. After decades of working and doing housework, laundry, cooking, etc, older women don’t want to have to go through that routine yet again with yet another man.
Jane Wilder, wow! You’ve done ALOT for your husband during all those years of illness and pain. There are many spouses out there who would just up and leave their partner. You sound like a principled woman of strong character and your husband is very lucky to have you. It sounds like you two have something increasingly rare in today’s world – a long and loving marriage. Congratulations. May the readers of this blog be so lucky.
With your blessings and good wishes, may I also be as lucky.
I find these comments extremely amusing. It seems as if the tables have turned for the women in there 50s. I grew up as an ugly duckling – meaning I am one of those nice guys that always respected women, and was always the “last to pick” and always mistreated. I grew to become a bit more handsome as I aged and I agree with some of the earlier comments that imply that women are opportunists almost to the point of being parasitic. I also believe that the statistics given barely scratch the surface – there are many cultural considerations that are missing here.
1. Mid teens-mid twenties: Usually forming no meaningful relationships with men, but enjoying rejecting men for sport. Typically experimenting with lesbianism.
2. Mid twenties-mid thirties: Usually shacking up with some complete loser and maybe having kids with him.
3. Mid thirties-mid forties: Usually they find some desperate mangina who’ll pay for everything she’s done in the past. After about a decade or so, she cleans the poor dupe out in a divorce case and repeats step #2; now though as a liberated ‘cougar’.
I was rejected a lot when I was younger for that good looking guy loser with nothing going for him. When I am single I am always pursued by women who have kids. I have been married twice and in both marriages I was taken to the cleaners (sad thing is that I am always asked to be the stepdad) and I was the one that initiated both divorces to get away from an abusive relationship – most women don’t hit, but their verbal abuse can be very harmful. I also find it interesting that women say men want them to take care of their children. I never wanted anyone to take care of my children – I can do that myself as long as I’m not fighting my child’s mother in court for custody or child support so I can take care of them when they are with me. Funny, they both fought very hard to stay married to me for the benefits of being with a military veteran. One comment was right – the court systems are archaic and biased against men.
It is no surprise to me that these baby boomers are complaining about something they turned down when they were younger. All the court systems are in their favor, they have worked their marriage material husbands into the grave, and are still using any available men for their own benefits. Really, what does a man get from a marriage nowadays? Marriages are rarely mutually beneficial. This is the 21st century. Marriage as an institution was a well oiled machine in the 50s when men and women had clearly defined roles that were mutually beneficial. It’s funny to hear about women complaining about having to take care of someone for the rest of their life. What about the men who have worked their entire life – it’s a partnership people. If you want anything else (man or woman), you are being selfish.
Women are probably being rejected by the same type of men that they rejected years ago. Men who have figured out that they are actually worth more than how much is in their bank account, how many degrees they have, how many miles they can run, or how good they look. I will certainly never consider dating a woman my age or older. I grew up with them and I know how devious they can be. Lets face it – if you are over 50 and you are not taking care of yourself, then don’t expect someone to hit on you who genuinely wants a healthy relationship with you (physically and mentally).
Also, lets be real – this article is about single white women over 50. Other cultures have different approaches to dating when you are older – some even cherish family and marriage a lot more. I wonder if you look at demographics would you see the same trend – I doubt it.
Women say they want their “soul mate” or their “companion”, but what they really want is what they have wanted since we started walking upright – the “bigger and better deal” or *hypergamous* as one poster put it. Women aren’t done with men after 55, they just can’t find the “bigger better deal” that’s primarily beneficial to them anymore (and the men aren’t looking for them).
So these older ladies will stay divorced depending on why they are single in the first place. If they are single due to the loss of someone they don’t feel can be replaced, they will remarry if they find someone they connect with just as much or more than their previous mate (bigger better deal). If they are receiving alimony or social security, I’m sure they will jump on the first stable and secure guy that offers more financial stability (bigger better deal). If they are single because they can’t find someone who is able to look past their “wrinkles” like their previous mate, as soon as they can find someone who appears to accept them they will jump (the bigger better deal). Either way, it will always be what’s in it for them. Maybe I’m wrong and bitter, but I haven’t seen much to change my opinion – women have always stayed with men for their benefit. Of course this has been the balance of nature for a long time, but has changed a bit since men are living longer and both sexes have more options. So, I will just sit back, date my 20 years younger love of my life, cook, clean, work, take care of my children, and laugh at the desperate women who had what they are seeking now years ago but made poor selfish choices and are complaining about it now.
i am a 35 year old male, athletic, good looking etc. i have always been attracted to women over 50, I don`t know why, it is not a fetish, I just absolutely adore the company of more mature women and I find everything about women over 50 just incredibly sexy.
There can be potential for a very special relationship between a younger man and an older woman. Mature women have a way of making me feel comfortable about being myself. They have been through lots of life experiences, and all of the mature women I have been with have been great conversationalists. I have had intimate relationships with woman as old as 72, All of the relationships evolved from a friendship, a honest mutual friendship that had no preconceived notions. The age difference made past relationships seem taboo, public displays of affection would draw double takes from onlookers, having to explain our friendship to other family members, including children who were usually older than me, but when we were alone together it was pure magic!
I would usually take my older girlfriends on weekend getaways. I will never forget the weekend trip to a casino with Audrey. Audrey is 67 years old and has been a really good friend of mine since we met while sitting together on a long greyhound bus trip in 2005. We live 8 hours apart, so we make plans to see each other about once a month. I rented us a nice suite in Niagara Falls for the weekend a few years ago, great view, amazing food, a beautiful woman AND a $10,000 jackpot! We were so excited just to be with each other that the jackpot win didn`t faze us. We went back to the room and made love for hours, then lay in each others arms make plans for a 2 week trip with our winnings. We ended up going to Aruba for 2 of the funnest weeks of my life. I have had plenty of good times with women over 50!
Must reply to Keyboard Cowboy…..hahaha. You are a funny guy. First, if I am to believe this wild tale, which I do not. I can understand the old gal riding the bus as she probably had her drivers license suspended. But a 27 year old boy-man meeting a 59 year old women on a romantic greyhound bus (long trip your words), well, this conjures up a vision of Ratso in the movie Midnight Cowboy. Meeting on a greyhound bus disqualifies you from this post. That’s all I can say, I have to go throw up now………
Honestly people. Why all this negativity? Brad has got it right, We are not done with men. We love you all, but want to have a life with and without you. One can have a relationship without living together. Adults change and hopefully mature as they age, and become a little set in their ways as they get older. Perhaps it is easier for family, friends and the relationship to have some space.
I was married for over 20 years to a man – and that worked for me in my youth, Things happen, life changes and we move on. btw my 85 year old mother had a wonderful time with her partner until he passed away. They lived separately. Seems I am following the same path and am having a great time with my partner for last few years, and we live in separate cities. We are having a pile of fun.
🙂 Just realized how my narrative reads. My reference to partner is to male partners. No need for any lesbian comments.
Good God! I didn’t realize men could be such panty waists! Grow up!
This article only pertains to middle aged white women, and whites are a dying race.
YES. Women are done with men after 55 IF they are not happily married to one at 55. Divorced and otherwise single women in their 50s might like to date or even play house with a guy, going on vacations together etc, but not marry him. Just like the commenter “female and 55” wrote.
We women like our space. Perhaps even moreso than men.
Oh my, reading this forum is like a death sentence to women of a certain age. I am 60, very sexually inclined and am dating men 16 to 30 years younger than me. Just saying…
Here I go again, just have to reply to Cappie51. I have yet to find an old broad that was not sexually inclined. These over 60 gals are starving for sex, but alas the reality of who wants to have crazy sex with a woman 60 and older, really. As for her stating she dates guys 16-30 years younger, well, the rules apply to both men and women that date these younger people, as long as you are paying they will be available. If my “sex” choice is a 60 plus year old woman for free or a 35 year old for $300, all I can say, does the $300 include tip…….hand me a hammer, time to brake the piggy bank…..
True
Donald, nobody is saying that 60 year old women are done with SEX. Some most certainly are not, although I attribute old people’s obsession with sex to our culture’s obsession with youth and signs thereof. We are saying that old women are finished with living with men day in and day out in a married-couple-like fashion.
Old women who are widowed or divorced often say, “I’ve spent my life waiting hand and food on other people, now I want space”.
Are they up for a good shag every now and then? Sure.
A little romance? Probably.
Perhaps a NON live-in boyfriend? Could be.
Married and/or living together? FORGEDDABOUTIT!
Interesting comments here! I am over 55 and NOT over men..I truely like being with a man. I am dating and the men I meet (thank heavens) don’tt want someone they can’t relate to. The music, the “good old years”, sharing life’s ups & downs, talking about a variety of interesting topics. I’m not a beauty queen by any sense but being attracted to each other can be about their personalities, laughing, sharing and then the sparks can fly. As far as not wanting to marry again, my issue is financial. Fortunately, I have had a good career and have a couple of retirements coming in a few years and do not want to give that up. I would totally agree that the men don’t want to either. Let’s sing, dance and see the world..live together, maybe…share our space sometimes, yes. But it is nice to have a man in my life. Hope women don’t give up if they don’t want to. It may be more difficult to find people, but join in the “technology” of on-line dating or groups that do things you like to do (volunteer, bike riding, archaelogy digs, travel, wine tasting, dancing). If you don’t want to…then so be it. Enjoy!
Wow! Highly interesting conversation. I am a 54 year old divorced female and I would concur with those who say that fun, sex and companionship are what I’m looking for at this stage of the game. I am financially independent and not looking for cohabitation or someone to take care of nor someone to take care of me.
Unfortunately, we are all subject to the same biological imperatives that govern us in our early years of mating. (Men are attracted to curvy, youthful women with longer hair and Women are looking for a strong, stable man.) Biological imperatives aside, I think emotional connection must play a part here, especially in later age. Are both sexes not looking for that connection that makes us feel alive and valued?
Dating is certainly more of a challenge in mid life, it seems. My personal experience has been that men my age are (at least initially) looking to date younger, so that leaves my pool of choices in the 60ish range. I have explored the dating websites (since I live in a very isolated small town) and I was quite appalled to find that I, too seemed to gravitate towards men who attracted me physically…despite what the profile said. I thought I was more evolved than that! That said, I have been communicating for over 3 years with a man I met on a dating site who is 6 years my junior and we have developed a great friendship. (Haven’t yet met because of extreme distance and I’m not sure he was ever physically attracted.) And, I dated another man a couple of times who is also younger…but no physical chemistry on my part. So….the dance goes on…
I enjoyed reading all of your posts, and hope to read more in the future. We all seem to struggle in one way or another….and we all need connection. Best of luck to all. 🙂
There are some really insightful comments here. I’m a 50 y/o still-attractive divorced woman. Five years ago my husband met a 23 year-old online and left me to make a life with her. A year or so after the divorce, I started dating. I found that men my age are usually looking for women much younger than them. Some of them seemed to want to relive their 20’s. After a couple of months, I took myself off the market and immersed myself in my own interests and my friendships. A surprising thing happened when I hit menopause last year, and it happened almost overnight. I lost all interest in men and romance. I like men as a gender, and I value them as friends, but that’s it. I just want to continue to do the things I like doing without the hassle of romance. I believe this is biological. The chemical that used to compel me to mate has all but disappeared. Life is so much more enjoyable now. I have a much more “Live and let live” attitude about everything.
@ Happy. Very honest post. “Live and let Live”. I am Happy for Happy. I can not imagine a 50 plus year old man wanting to be with a 23 Year old girl. I guess they could get some tattoos and piercings…..
@ Dragonfly. Would you call communicating with a man for 3 years that you have never met, “A Commitment”. LOL, Be careful with those dating sites….you can be whoever you want to be on a dating site. I joined one one time and went out on about 10 dates…Not one date was within the stated age on their profile. Makes for an uncomfortable evening……
I actually think it might be true – that older women are done with men – because I know I am. Like “Happy,” I lost all sexual interest in men during menopause. And although I still continue to attract men – not nearly as many as when I was younger – I find that I lose interest once they want to have sex or a romantic relationship. (I really enjoy my work colleagues and friends – male and female alike – and discussions/joking around, activities etc. ) I think that both genders take things much too personally. I am no longer producing eggs,so therefore not as attractive to a large portion of men. I am no longer producing eggs so I no longer desire men as I used to. (Like Happy, I find that I am actually happier now and enjoying friends and intellectual pursuits much more.) One of the things that I think we’re dealing with is that humans are living longer than before and divorce is acceptable. We don’t have guidelines for many of the things we are experiencing in our current culture. If you look back 100 years (or less,) the concept of dating in one’s 50’s didn’t even exist. 100 years ago, I’d be dead by now or taking care of my grandkids (or great grandkids) so the younger members of my family could go out and work and support us all. I wouldn’t have the leisure or luxury of thinking about myself and I certainly wouldn’t be contending with any male expectation that I’d be interested… So, while the scientists and psychologists are working out their theories on 50+ women, I am just going to be comfortable with myself and enjoy the things I do.
There are some great comments here, and a lot of age bashing and sexism. I am 55, never married and not feeling so great about myself because of a very bad relationship I had a while back. As a result, I am quite turned off by the idea of dating. I also have to agree that a lot of the men in my age group think their s*** doesn’t smell! So, yes, I am a tad disillusioned. However, I have a number of friends who are the same age as me who look fabulous, and are very attractive to men. My mom also has a lot of single female friends in their 60s and 70s who have no problems finding decent men to date. Many are dating younger men. No, not boy toys, mind you; these guys are only five or so years younger. But it just goes to show you what a bunch of bunk many of these comments are. The point is, the idea that women over a certain age can no longer attract men, even worthwhile ones, is nonsense. I am sure I would be able to, too, if I felt better about myself and wasn’t frankly so gun-shy. The bottom line is, your attitude about yourself determines how attractive you are to other people, no matter what your age. If you genuinely feel good about and value yourself, that transcends any and everything.
Well said, Abby…thanks for your comments.
it seems that way for me. as a straight man that was married twice, i was a very caring and loving husband that never cheated on them and they both did cheat on me. i was very committed to them as well and was very happy at the time. then again, had i known that they were filthy whores i would have never married them in the first place. now that i go out a lot, i always seem to meet the nastiest women now with their no good attitude. the way they have become now, it does make it that much harder to meet them. i am now in my late fifties, and it should not have anything to do with that. i see the most ugliest men when i go out to these clubs on the weekends, and that does make me sick to see them have it. i consider myself an average good looking man, and i would have never thought that this would happen to me. then again, these type of women are very filthy pigs today for taking advantage of these men that have money. the sad thing is, we have a combination of lesbians and whores today which does add to the problem. there are just too many low life, piece of shit women out there now that are destroying this world. i will certainly blame the women out there today, not us good straight men that are looking to meet a good woman for us now. years ago, the women back then had class and they were a lot easier to meet than now.
WOW! I just had to reply to so very much true. I am convinced that people attract what they give out. Like attracts like. Positivity attracts positive people; a negative attitude will attract negative people and experiences. You are obviously an extremely bitter, angry man. No wonder you are attracting “nasty” women! Good grief, my dear sir! There are good women (and men) out there. But with that kind of anger and obvious hatred of women (whom you seem hellbent on generalizing), you certainly will not attract them.
Abby, don’t throw stones in a glass house, a man’s memory goes longer than one post, which apparently you couldn’t figure out. Considering your diatribe is 3 posts above the one you attempted to shame (and failed to do).
Excuse me, I was hardly “throwing stones is a glass house,” nor was I attempting to “shame” anyone. Quite the contrary, I take responsibility for my own dilemma, by way of holding myself accountable for for my own poor choices and circumstances. As I pointed out, the way we feel about ourselves dictates the kinds of people we will attract, good, bad or indifferent, regardless of gender or age. This also dictates the choices we make. As such, those who are well-adjusted will refrain from choosing dysfunctional partners, while those who feel like crap about themselves will gravitate toward toxic people like moths to flames.
This man obviously is bitter and angry. He actually called the women he has been encountering “pieces of shit,” “whores,” etc. I don’t see where the concept of his “memory” has anything to do with his quite obvious bitterness and anger toward women. That said, I refuse to generalize and blame an entire gender for my lot in life. The bottom line is, not all men (or women, for that matter) are a-holes. I just happened to have chosen the ones who were. Thus, I and only I am responsible for that. This guy obviously does not share my sentiments. If that’s “throwing stones in a glass house,” then consider me guilty as charged. I repeat, we are all responsible for our choices in life. Not all people are jerks. However, if we keep attracting jerks, then perhaps we feel that’s all we deserve…and it’s time to look inward to discern why!
My brother recently remarried at 58 to a very attractive woman his own age. He had been divorced for 10 years from a woman who claimed she didn’t want any more children (my brother did) only to get pregnant by her paramour 3 months after the separation. Needless to say, my brother was kind of shell shocked by the divorce. He dated a lot, but confessed to me that he couldn’t believe the low quality of women that were available. He slept with most of them, which led to a LOT of unnecessary, pointless, and truly anacephalic drama, so he swore off women.
His wife had a parallel experience. She dated a lot of [by her description] substandard guys and decided that doing without was better what the dating market was offering her. My new sister-n-law is easily in the top .1% (not top one percent but top point one percent) of women her age measured by physical attractiveness. My brother was a fine looking man in his twenties and thirties but has seen better days. I’ve always wondered whether, if they had met forty years ago, she would have given him the time of day.
According to my brother, he and his wife are burning up the sheets. He had been through with women and she had been through with men. The brutal fact is, there isn’t much out there for either men or women. It is truly providential that my brother and his wife found each other, and i can see why so many decide to take their chips and cash out.
Do women at 55 lose interest in laundering a man’s underwear – surprisingly this seems to coincide with the children leaving for college.
@Donald Drew: No…I certainly do not consider a 3 year phone friendship a commitment by any stretch. I have heard that some people (maybe the majority?) of older folks hedge on their true age on dating websites, but I was always honest. I always wanted to look good for my age, not old for 40! I guess some do that to beat the maximum age setting on younger people’s profiles?
@asinusspinasmastican: I agree…there doesn’t seem to be too many good choices out there for men or women. By middle age, most of us are somewhat set in our ways, and with menopause, waning sex drives and diminished physical attractiveness….sometimes, it hardly seems worth it! Out of curiosity, how did your brother meet his wife?
Bottom line seems to be…..finding acceptable dating partners, companionship and love past 50 is a challenge.
In my observation, it’s a challenge for anyone – no matter what their age – to connect with others on any kind of meaningful level these days. I have a number of younger friends, relatives and colleagues of both genders who are having a rough go of it. I just think that we live in a very disconnected, narcissistic society due to a variety of factors, not the least of which is the Internet. But as I stated in my earlier post, I am convinced that a positive attitude can and will draw positive people and scenarios, and vice versa.
I have been divorced for 11 years, dated 4 men since, one especially serious and now? Done – 3 out of the 4 relationships I’ve had were with quite younger men, my ex is 8 years younger than me. The older men want younger women and the younger men want younger women. Fact of life, so I quit the love scene, I got the hint. Heart is closed for business
oh, and I’m 51 – have friends and family say to me “Oh you’ll meet someone some day” My some day has passed – or they say, “oh you don’t look your age, you look younger” – fact is, I AM NOT YOUNGER
@ Elbeec. Gee girl, sounds like you had a bad day. You have just entered the death spiral of women over 50. If you in fact are just 51 and attractive, you just need to refocus on what you really want out of a relationship. There is a large pool of men 55-58 that have not yet learned their lesson and looking hard for a good 48-53 old woman. I strongly believe your days of be courted by 40 year old men is OVER. If you can put your expectations in check, you may find a good companion, but doubt marriage is in your future. A good companion can bring great benefits like travel, dinners, and trust. Bottom line you need to back away and put a plan in place that involves not just “a man”, but what you enjoy doing. If you have children, spend a lot of time with them. Vacation with them, and work on your general health (gym & diet). Build up that esteem and maybe a little nip and tuck is in order. So much more to life than having “a Man”. Spend a few bucks and take a look at some dating sites…You make it sound like dating younger men is important. Forget that unless you have a lot of money and want to be used. Focus on 55-58 year old men, their front doors are open. Not the law, but in general..once you hit 55-57, that is when you can really claim “DONE”……see you in the recreation room at the retirement center 🙂 Chin up girl, use that AARP card for movie discounts..lol.
@Dragonfly – My brother met my sister-in-law online. They chatted for about a month, then he told her; “I’m going to be at this bookstore tonight between 7:30 and 10. If you want to meet face to face, come on down. If not, OK. I’m a bookstore kind of guy, not a club kind of guy.” She came down and met him, and liked what she saw. The rest is history.
Women over 50 who have kept their weight down, dress well, and still have a nice figure are in high demand by men their own age, but they are not in the position to make the kinds of demands they were able to make in their 20s and 30s. The ones that realize this can end up with a happy ending. The ones that listen to their hamsters are better off cultivating female friends and taking up interesting hobbies. BTW I have another [white] friend in his late 50s who just married a black woman in her late 50s. She looks like Freda Payne.
Many of these posts are rather disheartening, and in my experiences inaccurate. It seems that many are saying that A.) Older women should take what they can get because they have run out of options and B.) Older women have run out of options because they just don’t look as hot as they used to. Which would lead one to conclude that many believe the media hype that women over 55 are washed up, and looks are the primary basis for attracting men. That’s pretty silly, and is a disservice to decent men (they do exist) who are looking for companionship based on something deeper than whether a woman looks like a Playboy centerfold. I have a friend who is 45 who recently was dumped by her 56-year-old boyfriend for a 55-year-old woman, because he reached a point in his life where he didn’t want to be with a woman who has young kids. As for me, in my younger days, I put up with a lot more crap from men (who were frankly not worthy of any decent woman) because of my misguided need to please men. Thankfully, I have become far more selective in my “old age,” and have developed a much lower threshold for BS. Many will argue that I will wind up alone. But I’d rather be alone than put up with gratuitous nonsense. That said, there are more single people over 50 than ever. In fact, I just read a report stating that there are more single men in this age group than women! And there are lots of mature men who actually do prefer women close to them in age, due to shared life experiences, lifestyle compatibility, etc. As I mentioned in my original post, I know many, many women who are over 55 who are dating up a storm; many are even dating somewhat younger men. These guys are not rejects for whom these ladies are “settling,” either. So there is lots of hope, gals!
Overactive hamsters eventually up with cats as pets.
@Abby –
Get real.
With the possible exception of Amparo Grisales (NSFW – age 58), no woman over 55 is going to appear in a Playboy centerfold.. Even for the Jane Seymours and Marisa Tomeis of this world, that is a ship that has long since vanished over the horizon.
Nevertheless, looks will continue to matter for men until their eyesight fails or they drop into their graves. Even though she may never appear in a centerfold, this woman will have an easier time finding a man than this woman even though the first woman is 70 and the second is 62.
BTW I have another [white] friend in his late 50s who just married a black woman in her late 50s. She looks like Freda Payne.
Black women who take care of themselves look younger much longer than other ethnicities of women.
To AsinusSpinasMasticans. It seems that you either skimmed over my post or misconstrued it. I didn’t say anything about 55 year old women BEING Playboy centerfolds. I said that mature men are NOT LOOKIN FOR PLAYBOY CENTERFOLDS. I can also say that just because someone is young doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re good looking. There are plenty of young women who look like something the cat dragged in, and plenty of older women who look fabulous. It’s all relative. But for anyone to say that older women are not desirable because of their ages is absurd. I repeat, I now lots of older women who look great, and are having the times of their lives dating. I am not imagining this or making this up. I am simply trying to look on the positive side of many of the negative comments here. P.S. — Most 50-something men don’t look so hot…
Looks matter less to women than men, so it doesn’t matter if a 50YO man doesn’t “look so hot”. Nevertheless, men generally age better than women.
I can’t help wondering if these 50-something women having the “time of their lives dating” are getting the old romp and run from frat boys on a coked up night out. What fun! I still got it! They’ll still end up with cats for company.
Sorry, but looks do matter to women. I also disagree that men age better than women. At least not the women I know. Meanwhile, these are not “frat boys” these women acquaintances and friends of mine are dating. These are guys close to them in age (in some case a few years younger), and these guys are successful, without exception. So they’re not looking for “sugar mamas.” Case in point, my mom has a widowed friend who is 79, is a complete knockout (she goes to a gym six days a week) and is about to marry a doctor. They have known each other since they were teenagers and he always had a crush on her, which did not diminish with her age. It certainly seems to bother you that some women actually have not been put out to pasture, and refuse to see themselves as “washed up” and undesirable. As I said earlier, how you see yourself determines how the world sees you, regardless of your age, looks or gender. So sorry if I don’t buy into your ageist, misogynistic BS. P.S. – There are worse fates than winding up with a cat. It beats winding up with some loser guy.
Case in point, my mom has a widowed friend who is 79, is a complete knockout
I’m sorry, but it was hard to read the rest due to uncontrollable laughter. Really, though, that’s nice that she has someone, really, it is, but come on… (And I said looks matter less to women, not they don’t matter at all, but this is typical of women – can’t take a simple statement at face value but instead have to resort to hyperbole and absolutes).
Think what you want, little man. I am through feeding the troll…
Abby, CL has no dangly bits between her legs. LOL, But the “79 year old knockout” was a good laugh. Remember to keep your hamster wheel hubs well greased.
To be fair, a 79 year old women might possibly be a knockout for a 89 year old man, but I’m going to keep my imagination in check.
Wait… one more laugh, a knockout 79 year old women getting a rise out of a 89 year old man. ROTFLMAO
Well there’s always…
This post has really hit a nerve. All I did was throw out a few charts and it is now the all time most visited page on my blog. It even has bigger traffic than my post on lara logan (I ended up in the top of Google rankings during the run up to the big 60 min episode).
As I’ve mentioned previously, women don’t care about men after age 55. They passionately don’t care. They don’t care so much they are constantly telling everyone how much they don’t care.
Speaking of “projection,” I am sure that women were done with the types of “men” posting on here a long, long time ago. Somehow, I suspect that most of these guys are fat losers who live in their mommies basements who haven’t been on a date since Reagan was in office. Time to grow up, fellas, and get a life.
@TFH: I recently saw a copy of EPL in an airport book store. On the back cover, Julia Roberts mentions how she gave this great book to all her friends. From hypergamous whore in ‘pretty woman’ to EPL copy distributor, way to go for her.
“Speaking of “projection,” I am sure that women were done with the types of “men” posting on here a long, long time ago. Somehow, I suspect that most of these guys are fat losers who live in their mommies basements who haven’t been on a date since Reagan was in office. Time to grow up, fellas, and get a life.”
LOL! At the most popular Swedish MRA site we have a handle (jämställdhetsministern) who will, just as a joke, agree with the feminists commenting and add some inane feminist drivel standard response like this a couple of times in every big thread.
I wouldn’t say she’s a “knockout”, but at 74, not bad at. all.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/13/ernestine-shepard-74-year_n_644607.html
And yes, she’s an outlier of the highest order, no doubt.
I’m just stirring the pot CL, LOL. I realize that the chances of almost any 70-something looking half this good are rarer than rare. Abby is definitely engaging in hyperbole. But Ernestine Shepherd is certainly something to aspire to, yes?
Oh, and this woman got started working out at age 56!
I do not know exactly how this site found me, but I keep getting post alerts and return from time to time. Seems like the actual subject has lost perspective. A lot of personal assults and bantering. I was out with my girlfriend last night (57) and asked her if she thought in general if the over 55 single women in her circle were done with men, dating, looking hard, or happily alone and
done with men. So a fresh perspective focused on the subject of this post is: Most of her over 55 single women are working out and keeping in shape, not for themselves but in hopes of finding a man. Of course this question opened a bigger can of worms, but bottom line is that women over 55 are not done with men. Those that claim they are have given up on themselves. Heavy, unkept, lacking a good profession or lack financial security. We both agreed that communication about expectations becomes more difficult with the over 55 group. Men and women over 55 that remain in the game, feel they are younger and have a mind set they are younger. A younger mind set (for some) creates expectations that are not realistic for senior dating / releationships. Our relationship has developed well because of good communication. We want to live alone, but enjoy fine dining, and travel. We do not have to talk every day and we do a lot of spontaneous stuff, which is what I really like about the relationship. Early on, we discussed dating other people and it really never happened, but agreed it was OK. So I asked her last night if she had dated anyone else since we met 3 years ago. She first seemed shocked that I asked the question and immediately asked why and if I was dating other women. I said just curious because we discussed that when we first started dating and no, I wasn’t dating some other ladies. She said she was extremely happy with our relationship and while we discussed it early on, she felt we had moved above that. To that end….looks like some new communication coming my way…we are very happy with our routine. Leaving on a cruise this Saturday and wishing I had not brought this subject up……lol
And I thought women were catty. Some of you guys are downright nasty.
Anybody who wants to see nuclear powered rationalization hamsters in full Nuremberg display should drop in on the Over 45 forum on Plentyoffish.com. It is dominated by a many-headed hydra composed of frequent female posters who lay down the party line with total ruthlessness:
1) Women experience no decrease in sexual market value due to aging – any 50 year old woman will be as attractive to a 50 year old man as her 30 year old self was to his 30 year old self.
2) Women are all fabulous divas who only get more fabulous with age. Men are constitutionally incapable of recognizing this.
3) The optimal relationship for the mature goddess is a part-time, completely monogamous relationship with a man who maintains his own residence and only comes over when the diva needs to be squired somewhere where other fabulous divas can envy her. Preferably, he should look like one of the three Sams (Elliot, Shepherd, Neill).
4) Any man who bails on a mature woman cannot handle her fabulousity.
The hydra maintains her strength because there are a number of male supplicants who feed it on a regular basis. Nevertheless, it is a joy to watch the hydra hiss and spit venom when the party line is challenged, like the 62 year old guy who lost 30 pounds in the gym and discovered he could date 35 year olds, or the doughy 55 year old guy who took a vacation in Colombia and found himself drowning in the attentions of 25 year old colombianas.
Then maybe you should move to Colombia. I am sure that the many-headed hydras and sundry divas would be completely bereft without you.
No tendría ninguna problema si lo hiciera. Tan pronto como salga mi amigo del gimnasio nos vamos.
Parece que la hidra brotó otra cabecita.
Why are males so angry when females are done with men by a certain age? Doesn’t society and men tell us how older women need to try harder to get a man after age 40 due to how even the most unattractive 40-50/somethinger can still get the younger women that he could not attract in his youth? Wouldn’t it be a blessing to older men to not have to contend with us “old ugly hags” trying to make a relationship with them and then these men having to tell us that we are not good enough?
I do keep myself up but am no longer the skinny girl of my youth or younger years. Life and tragedy did catch up when it comes to eating issues. Most of us women have ruined our metabolism with fad diets so the chickens have literally come home to roost via body fat in our older years. I wear very nice clothes and use quality cosmetics so I choose to look for myself. I am not foolish enough to try to attract a man, where I could only get criticism for not having a young woman’s body or refusing to BOTOX my face so a man can not feel embarrassed about being seen with me: an older woman.
It is a relief not to have sexual desire. A man will have sex with anyone even though he will mock a woman for not having a tight body and still want to do reprehensible sexual things in the bedroom. There are too many desperate older women who will do what they think it takes to snag a man. Any man who is upset at a woman of this age being done with men is only upset that we have caught onto the game and have opted out of playing.
I have been having a good laugh reading through these comments. I am not over 55. I just hit the 50 marker this year. I feel good about myself, have a great job and bring in a great salary. I’m very satisfied and happy where I am. I have no intentions of getting married again. Not because I don’t like men but I have been single so long and I really like my freedom and am unwilling to give that up. I can come and go as I please, do what I please without consideration of anyone. I would have a very difficult time giving that up. I am happier single.
As another poster pointed out, this thread has lost perspective. The original intent was to explore the notion that “women are done with men after age 55.” (I can’t help but disagree, by the way. But I digress…)
Of course, that became conveniently construed by many of the men who visit this blog (who are obviously painfully bitter and angry) as “the reason why women are done with men after age 55 is because we men don’t want them, due to the ‘fact’ that they are ugly old bitches, and we can easily get young hotties.”
Furthermore, I am saddened to see that a number of women who visit this site have bought into this horseshit. Like Marilyn, who seems to feel the need to apologize for her very existence. (Sorry, sweetie, but you come across as quite conflicted about your self-worth.)
Meanwhile, those women who were brave enough to disagree were attacked as being fat, ugly cat lovers (despite the lack of any concrete physical evidence…and how dare you malign cat lovers!) or “manginas” (if they happened to be male, and proclaimed to actually find older women — the nerve!– still sexy and vibrant).
Funny how certain “men” become so threatened at the very idea that any women no longer want them. I wonder why…
Alphalady,
I don’t think you realize how much projection you are immersed in. Everything you said has been refuted in this thread, and in Dalrock’a article.
Plus, the term ‘alpha’ only applies to men. That you would choose this as your handle itself reveals that you have…….issues (to put it mildly).
Go back to your cat ugly fatty.
That’s OK.
If my brother’s experience is at all representative of the experience of older men dating, things aren’t that rough for men. It took him a while to find a keeper, but he never lacked for sexual partners.
Dear Gurus,
I am 41 and I am trying to date a 60 year old lady. She has gone to dates with me 4 times. We never held hands or do anything. How do I approach her about getting intimate with her? She knows that I think she’s very attractive and has agreed to go on a short trip with me in the future. Do women over 60 consciously feel she’s “old”? I get that feeling from her communications that she feels she’s too old for more. But I would definitely ML with her in a heart beat. I am a very physically fit guy and so is she.
I am a very physically fit guy and so is she.
LOL
anon Dec 14, 2011 at 5:50 pm:
I’m a 43 year old guy, married. I can tell you that if I were single, the only reason I would pursue a 60 year old woman is if she were very physically fit, very attractive, and to escalate to “intimacy” as rapidly as possible.
I’d suggest the following:
1. Escalate physically, Hold her hand and assess her comfort level. Move to kissing and do the same. Tell her you want to be intimate with her. She has to know that you find her attractive after 4 dates. You’d better escalate soon.
2. No trips together unless you pay your own way and she pays hers.
anon Dec 14, 2011 at 5:50 pm:
If you are very physically fit and become a confident man, you could pursue a woman half the age of the 60 year old you are trying to date.
41-19=22 Wow, the age range of women you can pursue is almost the equivilant of your age.
Alphalady,
What bothers me about women being done with men when they get old is that is seems like they’re getting away with a crime. They spent their entire lives making the world worse and now they’re going to withdraw and be hermit? I want them out here so I can return some of the compassion they gave.
It’s a character flaw. As a Christian, I should have mercy, forgiveness. Jesus knew heartbreak and forgave.
I’ll work on it, but in the meantime I’ll continue to chuckle at women’s stories of boyfriends who wrecked their cars after nailing hotter babes in them ( *heheheheh* ).
Hmmm….well I know this is just an anecdote, but I’m a 50 year old woman. In the 5 years since I’ve been divorced, almost all of the time I’ve dated actively or been in an exclusive relationship. 4 of my relationships were longer-term (1-2 years), and all of those men really wanted to marry me but I didn’t want to marry them. Why not? Basically, because I can afford to be choosy.
I already have a family (kids) and there’s no “ticking clock” at my age. I’m a career professional, and financially secure–I don’t need a “meal ticket”. Having gone thru a difficult marriage & divorce (ex with alcohol and fidelity issues), I’m not eager to repeat that. So if I ever get married again the guy’s got to be a keeper. Why I didn’t marry my recent long-term suitors:
1) He was 13 yrs older than me—not a great thing when your already middle aged & looking into the future. He might be dead by the time I retire from my job, for example. Also physically, well, he was and old guy. Plus he suffered from debilitating anxiety—wasn’t sure I wanted to deal with that long-term. Wonderful guy & we’re still friends, and I still sometimes wonder if we should have tried it anyway….
2) He was only 5 years older than me but spent half his time working in another city a plane ride away. Fascinating to talk to–he’s actually a well known person–but a workaholic Plus he was an old-school male centered on himself–it hardly seemed to occur to him that I might have a life too. For example, he refused to spend the time to even meet my parents even after we’d dated for a year and he was pressuring me to marry him, even though we spent lots of time with his family & I traveled with him frequently for work. Also, he had health issues & was overweight and doing nothing about it—that made me wonder what I’d be signing up for. We still email back and forth and he’d like to get back together, but the issues that I worried about when we were dating are still there…..
3) He was 5 years older than me, healthy, a rock muscian & tech guy, and super fun to hang out with. But he was underneath bitter and insecure bout being an underachiever his whole life. He lied about his accomplishments, was proud of being a troll online, and complained about other people all the time. After a while he started treating me snarky and mean too, putting me down, etc. I dumped him and then he stalked me for a year–what a loser! Now I’m wiser about “red flags”.
4) He was 7 years older than me, in my profession so we had a lot in common, VERY handsome, treated me like a princess, we really clicked. I did worry at bit because he was more intensely Christian religious than I am, he was a leader in his church, taught the lessons, preached, talked about his faith all the time, and criticized me a bit because I was less active in my faith. Eventually he admitted to cheating on me for much of the time we were together including while we were talking marriage, and it also came out that he’d cheated constantly during his 32 year previous marriage. He begged and promised to change…! Said he cheated during his marriage because it was all his wife’s fault. He urged us to attend couples counseling, and said that he knew a great counselor because he and his wife had gone to him for decades! Of course I dumped him. He still sends me goopy emails every few months declaring his undying love and how he “shouldn’t be judged for one small mistake”. He also said he “believes in redemption” so I should give him a chance to redeem himself (!). OMG I thought that was actually pretty funny — him using religious language to sweep his life long history of indiscretions, including all during the time we were together, under the rug. I still see him occasionally at work when we have to interact professionally so that’s a bit awkward. I don’t feel sorry for him–geez, man, what did you expect?!?
I’m 69, but it’s just a number now. I’m twice married, and now single with 2 dogs and 3 cats. I’m a good friend to them (the dogs and cats that is). It’s pretty apparent to me that I am probably not a good candidate for marriage and have accepted that reality. I work at being a good friend to my neighbors and try to be civil with my relatives, and loving to some .
I don’t waste much time worrying about the past and try to deal with the future in whatever form it takes on. I am trying to be a better man and once in a while I am.
to abby, i do seem to meet all the nasty women with their no good attitude. tell me something, if you are so smart , why are they like this? i did nothing wrong on my part, as far as i know. women are definitely much more different than they were years ago. women today, cannot stay with one man like they did years ago. women were raised very well by their parents, unlike now. once women’s lib took over, it messed up their brain. most of them think that they are all that, but they are not. and since there are many women today that are lesbians, it will be harder for me to meet a good one today, like i have said before, i cannot blame myself for what they have become now. years ago, that is why our grandparents and parents were very lucky to have met one another, and stayed married for as long as they did. think about that one.
A lot of women are in denial. We have shows like “Cougar Town” and the soap operas which keep women rowing down that River of Denial.
The options for older women are very low regardless of how a woman tries to convince herself she is an older “goddess.” Even Demi Moore with her millions and fame could not keep her younger husband. He started straying for young women even though Demi controlled most of the purse strings and made her regular visits for cosmetic surgery.
Many divorced men and widowers over the age of 50 do remarry but they tend to marry women much younger than their former wives or late-wives. A 79/year-old woman being a knockout? That is another feminist delusion. If that was the case, there would not be so many elderly women alone.
The man stating that a woman got away with a crime by no longer dating and he wants to extend the same mercy of Jesus? We do not need that “mercy”. As I stated in my first post, it seems some fellows like this Ecclesiastes man may only be angry at a woman retreating because he knows she is over the game due to knowing how it is played. There are plenty of fresh young women wanting a man. No need to try to dip one’s hand into an older woman’s candy dish and possibly embarrass her.
@ Marilyn. Very well put. It is what it is. If you are over 55, you really have to be the cream of the crop to be seriously courted by a good man that has his ducks in a row. I am in my early sixties and date a 57 year old lady that is very nice looking, a workout fanatic, retired and secure. We have been together for 3 years and do not live together by choice. She has recently been talking about a face lift and showing signs of insecurity. While I tell her she is a very pretty lady, her mind set seems to be as she ages, she is becoming less desirable…..On the other hand, I never really am concerned about her aging and certainly not mine…Men that chose women 10-20 years younger, that to is a tough road to and seldom leads to anything more than what it appears on the surface. Money for youth is simply the beginning of a death spiral. Men are living considerably longer than past generations, we and women really do not know what to do with us 🙂
@Donald Drew…thank-you for your post. Most people (women) are very angry when the issue of aging is pointed out. If women did not know that they had to be the cream of the crop after their 40’s (or even 30’s in a lot of social circles), the finer cosmetic counters would not have so many female customers buying the skin firming and anti-aging creams.
I am glad you found a lady whom is good for you re: relationship. Many seniors do not live together because they have their own homes. Marriage would cut the Social Security benefits in half for many people so it is cost prohibitive to marry at a later age. It is a rough road when an aging man chooses a much younger woman but many still do it. That desire is very strong.
woman who want sexlife into elderly life are ok by me age is only a number not a state of mind im 53yo man who would gladly take them into my bed if born in 1930 lady i am yours.
@Donald Drew,
Can women over 55 still achieve climax? I wonder whether they require external lubrication and other special care? Do you have some information you could share with us on how to make them happy?
Wow! Now here’s a so-called “ugly old hag” who obviously “roped a man.” A man who loved her since grade school. LOL! So long, suckers! http://www.philly.com/philly/living/celebrations/weddings/135973748.html
P.S. – Yes, Donald, we “old broads” can still achieve “climax.” Tough shit if that makes you feel threatened.
Marilyn, thanks for hating yourself. You give the MRAs a good reason to exist.
@ AlphaBitch…not sure why you made a statement pointed at me. I never questioned if women can have a climax (“old broads your words”) Personally I do not care, but in your case, I assume as long as they make batteries, you can climax anytime you desire…..You know there is an old saying, “Those that talk about having money, have none” and in your case I assume, “Those that have to talk about a climax must not be able to have one”….keep me off your hate list you old dried up prune…you would expect someone claiming to be the “Alphalady” would have a lot more class than you exhibit….close the trailer door and take your trash talk to Jerry Springer…….
AlphaLady, you live in a delusional world. If this was not an issue for aging women, there would not be so many older females talking about this issue. As for the article, these situations are few and far between. It seems as if you have a self-hatred issue. “Old broads”…well, you got something right. Don’t disgrace yourself trying to be 22 again.
@Marilyn
Thank you for taking note of me, but I wish you had read my comment closer.
I said it *seems* like they’re getting away with a crime. That’s the feel of it to me.
I don’t want to extend the “same mercy of Jesus”. I said I wanted to extend the same compassion to those women that they showed to others: damn little. I don’t want to hurt them myself, just to watch the world work its justice upon them.
I noted that wanting that justice, the return to them of what they gave, was a CHARACTER FLAW OF MINE. Further, I noted that Jesus forgave and that’s a standard I FAIL to meet. Mercy like his is exactly what you are hoping for. I am shocked at your interpretation. That’s nasty even for a militant atheist.
Wow. All this typing and I haven’t said a single new thing.
Alphalady, proud guiltless and unable to remember doing anything she should be ashamed of, asked why men are threatened by the idea that women don’t want them after age 55. I have answered without evasion.
I don’t expect that kind of integrity from her. She is incapable of it. I expect no gratitude for my addressing her question directly. She is incapable of grace as well. She did not notice that I didn’t twist her words to my advantage. In her world that is only an oversight, a mistake I made that she needn’t prosecute. When she says ‘love’ or ‘relationship’, those words are Alphalady-speak for ‘manipulative favor’ and ‘struggle for power’. This world was made by and for her kind.
I sincerely hope she finds ‘love’ in a long term ‘relationship’. It’s a sin, but I do.
Divorced 54 year old female here. I’ve been divorced for over 10 years. I probably could have remarried about 3-4 times during that time but I wasn’t willing to settle. I did that the first time and I learned my lesson.
Most of the guys I’ve met are either financially insecure (too much alimony debt or too little professional motivation), dealing with kids who have issues (drugs, eating disorders, financial irresponsibility), or are just not attractive to me. I don’t think I’m overly selective – but geez, are there no good men out there?
After reading the other posts, I guess I sound like a b**** but honestly, why would I want to get involved with a man who I have to support after working my butt off my entire life to ensure that I could be financially secure? And why would I want to be with a man who has dysfunctional kids when I worked so hard to make sure that my kids were prepared to be responsible adults? And lastly, why would I want to be with a man who is overweight, has an alcohol or drug problem, or is not trustworthy?
There is a serious shortage of decent men – unfortunately I sometimes think that all the good ones are stuck with the creeps they married years ago!
Sometimes I think that the problem is that the men of my generation were never part of the draft. The military seems to impart a sense of responsibility and maturity that stays with a man…something I don’t see in the men my age.
hahahah “not enough men were forced to die for consumer capitalism and my diamond rings”.
Thanks for stopping by old hag! Merry Christmas to you and your……
well merry christmas to you anyway.
to you and your cats…
FIFY YBM
these posts are the stupidest stuff I have ever read!! Men age worse than we do a lot of the time LOL! Boy are you all way off. My mother divorced my father in her forties. Had men younger than her chasing her until her recent death in her 70’s. Her last serious bf who she broke up with was 5 years younger than her! And same in her 50’s! My next door neighbor just got remarried for the 4th time and she is ninety and none of the guys have been older than her, some younger! Get a clue you stupid ass men. We women don’t want older men at any age for the most part nor need to settle for them.
I am in my forties/ divorced female and everyone thinks I am 30. I date guys much younger than me and never more than a few years older as I like nice bodies not the fat flabby ones most men have at any age. The younger guys I date many times have worse bodies than I do.
So shut the heck up.and find some happiness you miserable bitter people. Oh and work out men. Us females don’t want you fat ugly asses.
oh have heard the term panther…that is the name used for old ugly men looking for young women who don’t want them! or need them we have our own money and are more educate then men. Why don’t you post a survey re: women and jobs vs men and Women and college vs men.
More women now go to college than men by a huge percentage and more women are in the word force than men, many more. More women have professional jobs than men. Who do you think lost out most in this recession re: jobs and money. MEN who can’t find another job b/c in their fifties they are no longer wanted in the work force…yes ageism. It is their for men and women..but seems these days men feeling it more…
and it is late…so yes there are typos etc. but you get the point losers
Many of the comments are based on statistics that can be used to justify several hypotheses. Eric has some of it right when he observes that many (but hopefully not all) females seek males beneath them because then the female can dominate and feel superior in a society that tries to teach females to be less than men and to need makeup to look good. Also this type of guy gets a pseudo-mama to change his nappies and protect him from responsibility despite his tough guy exterior. “Thugs” and “alphas” tend to get the shorts and tank top cuties because of ignorance and conditioning by the media. Smart men are rarely praised or glorified. At least one woman here has mentioned that older men tend to “let themselves go” and aren’t attractive enough for her. That sounds like a teenager. By the time you are over 50 you should have learned that having sex with an attractive body or pretty face does not last as long as sex and true friendship regardless of size or shape. As long as you don’t weigh in at over 100 kilos for men or 80 kilos for women and as long as your face isn’t out of a horror show, anyone can look good enough in jeans and a nice fitting tank top to interest the opposite sex. I think humans make it too “complicado” as Brasilians say. Everyone needs love and affection and at least occasional sexual contact to stay mentally healthy. If women prefer chitchats with girlfriends over friendship and romance with a man, maybe that’s because (a) there aren’t many men out there with intelligence and sensitivity to what a woman likes and needs, and (b) there aren’t many women out there who know what a mature man likes and needs (and it’s not just The Thing ladies!). We are not taught the basics of how to get along well with the opposite sex, In gym class we are separated by a sliding wall just when we should be learning more about each other! Movie stars certainly don’t show us how to properly behave with each other or how to feel confident and good about ourselves and our appearance. Yet so many humans accept soapies and movies as reality, when in fact that world is false. Take some time out to learn about yourself and how to enjoy your own company. Then maybe someone else will be able to enjoy intimacy with you.
women are really done with men. Oh yes they are. Women are so done with men over 50 that women feel compelled to come here and tell everyone who will listen how done they are with men. They are done. And they need to tell everyone that they’re done. Amy is so done that she feels she absolutely HAS to come here and tell all men how fat, ugly and worthless they are.
Amy, you sound like a real prize.
David… she may be cute, but that attitude will go to the bone.
Amy… We get enough of your shite at work. If you don’t like the way Dalrock analyses current relationships… go elsewhere.
Chris, I was being sarcastic. Amy is the sort of woman that gives American women a bad international reputation.
“Her last serious bf who she broke up with was 5 years younger than her! And same in her 50′s! My next door neighbor just got remarried for the 4th time and she is ninety and none of the guys have been older than her, some younger!”
Hilarious post … amy these are pensioners … they CANT date older men, as the older men are all around the about to kick the bucket age …
Amy proves yet again most of theEPL women like her are batshit loonytunes
“My next door neighbor just got remarried for the 4th time and she is ninety and none of the guys have been older than her, some younger”
Seriously do you women really see this as proof of women dating younger men? These women are ancient, even their vaginas are probably incontinent …
I am a 61 year old female. I am not “over men” but the only men I find attractive are usually 15 years or so younger than I am–I have loads of male friends who are younger than I am. However, having said that, I am absolutely NOT interested in marriage or even dating. And, guess what? I am not alone. I know quite a few woman who have no interest in going down that road again. Why? Hormones? Who knows? Maybe it is because I don’t want the hassle in my life. Besides, having a man hanging around is limiting. I don’t have to explain myself. I don’t have to pick up his dirty underwear. I can spend my money as I want without having to hear someone bitching about it. I can do exactly as I please and that is precious. Some of the comments on this site would turn any 50+ woman off men for good.
Good, go back to your cats spinster. Make sure to die in the hospital so they can still give you an open casket funeral for your fa….
oh
look at this from an evolutionary/natural selection perspective and some possible answers emerge. What happens to post menopausal women simply does not matter, since they no longer pass on their genetic code. So sexual behavior, or attraction to/by men, simply doesn’t matter for post menopausal women. As a 50 year old man or woman we are disturbed or confused by changes in sexual appetite, but the evolution of humans is simply unaffected by women past reproductive age. In pre-industrial earth men and women were generally dead by their late 30s to early 40s, so even if women or men had been capable or reproduction past this age it would have been incidental.
I suppose that one could argue that it made some sense that men could reproduce to the end of life while women could not. Men were only needed for their genetic code while women were often left to do the vast majority of the raising of the children. So even if women were able to reproduce after age 50, the odds of their children surviving after the death of their mother (which was very very likely) was very low.
Now that we are no longer governed by natural selection evolution (since even the least capable among us can have and raise children), and since we tend to live much longer than the ancestors we evolved from, we have to face problems that we never evolved to have to face. It can be heartbreaking for men to deal with a wife who suddenly seems to have lost all desire for intimacy, just as it can be frustrating for a wife to have to deal with a man who cannot physically perform any longer. In the first case the man is left wondering, “why does my wife no longer love me” while in the second the woman is simply left wondering if her husband is not longer excited by her.
I’m 55. Holy crap. After reading the lion’s share of comments on this post, I’m also unbelievably depressed.
@ Monique. Your comment made me laugh. I’m also 55 and it seems that I fit into the “woman over 50 not looking for a mate” category. But I think I’ll get my teeth whitened anyway because it will make me happy when I look in the mirror. BTW, it’s amazing how many grouchy comments the original post elicited… Holy CRAP! 🙂
Hi, I turned 60 Christmas Day and I still love men. There is beauty in every person I see or meet. I am more sexually active now than when I was 21 and would be more if I could find a man who would commit with me and enjoy our time together. The study is really not a large study of females which is a sampling that does not prove anything. I am a consultant for schools and have a testing and measurements degree. Now for some of the questions I have seen on this free for all: The old saying if you don’t use it, you lose it , IS TRUE.. I climax several times with a man and do not need lubrication. I climax myself when I am not in a relationship. I have gone through the change and I am the same as when I was 21, maybe stiff in the joints due to the climate/or age, but that passes with a shower. (together would be nice) LOL
The answers to the whole thing is as plain as the notes on this site…. Anger, Hurt, Resentment, and Giving up. I met a woman who married at 86 and had a wonderful sex life and love life till she died at 90. The mind is a wonderful thing we should not waste… heard that ??? Your mind set, male or female is the HUGE icebreaker… not the men or women… so heal and stop carrying around that ton of bricks of bad karma. To see the good in someone, love, and cherish what that person has to offer is a wonderful thing. And I promise you, that the way men as well as women treat each other is the problem.
I am not married..but I have been asked and knew that it was not right, either it was to settle or just be with one another and I wanted the whole thing… Love, Nurturing, feeling safe, and intimacy. So as I put this in stone for all to read…. LOL… You can’t make someone love you, but you can forgive and move on and enjoy time with a man even at 60 or 86 or older. And there is a lot of hurt out there that needs to have their love tanks filled with good things from both sides…. nurturing, positive statements, kindness, intimacy, giving of one’s self , and more. When we can learn to change our minds our hearts will follow. Not simple, you have to work on it and believe. I still believe that after going thru some really hard situations and I know that there is nothing more wonderful than feeling safe in the arms of a man who makes me feel loved and stops time so that we can nurture each other and fill our love tanks. This nurturing makes us both strong for the things life throws at us. I may never marry, but I wont let hurt, anger, or a person’s poor behavior change my mindset and just give up. I plan on living till I am 90 and that my friend is 30 years of the most I can get out of life or sitting around being bitter. I choose happiness in accepting the good things in people and making great memories no matter what another person may choose. So there you have my opinion and as it is , the main point – we are all individuals and we all need to feel a sense of belonging. To belong you must get out there and belong.. simple.. with or with a relationship and hopefully with an open heart… Our hearts always mends if we as people forgive.
May Heavenly Father Bless each and everyone who reads this…. Susan
I am proud of you Monique… and all of you who are positive… take care
Thank you, Susan. That was a much needed breath of fresh air and inspiration! I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. If we can all treat each other with respect and kindness, much healing and love are sure to follow. Blessings! 🙂
Happy Belated Birthday to you, Susan! Thank you for your very interesting post on January 12. My husband of 25 years left me and our kids. It didn’t ‘just’ happen over night but he never complained about anything – kept it all inside.
Anyway, I’m going to “study” what you wrote because the word ‘bitter’ is an understatement. He has moved on as if we never existed – and I see the pain in my children’s eyes – not to mention the confusion. ‘Forgiveness’ is a funny word for me too. At 52, I don’t want another man – I took care of him (I was his “mother with benefits”), I am still raising my children and would like to know when it’s going to be my turn?! I gave up my life, my career, my ‘me’ to help my husband with his career (never got paid or thanked), I took care of the house inside and out and raised our 6 children – not to mention home schooling them too, and then POOF – one day he leaves and doesn’t even know who we are anymore.
So, Susan, let me read what you wrote – and for the rest of you out there – I’m a wounded bird – don’t give me any crap – you didn’t walk in my shoes and I didn’t walk in yours. Keep your judgin’ to yourself, please. Thanks…
” I am still raising my children and would like to know when it’s going to be my turn?! I gave up my life, my career, my ‘me’ to help my husband with his career (never got paid or thanked),”
Meaning no harm to you ma’am, but it sounds like he got out just in time before Eat, Pray, Love kicked in.
Laura…I had to laugh at your comment, “Mother with benefits”! That’s exactly what I felt like in my marriage. I am sorry for your loss and your pain, and that of your children. I started over at 50 and went back to college while raising my two. It was the best thing I ever did. You will find your strength and momentum to carry on and move forward. (Just ignore these petty little rude comments…they show up every once in awhile like the pesky little bloodsucking mosquitoes that they are!) I will look for your email, because I would like to send you something. Keep your head up! 🙂
Lauravdm:
“My husband of 25 years left me and our kids.”
“I took care of him (I was his “mother with benefits”)”
“when it’s going to be my turn?!”
Q. E. D.
All due respect, ma’am, perhaps your ex husband wanted a wife, not a mother.
@ lauravdm2011
“Anyway, I’m going to “study” what you wrote because the word ‘bitter’ is an understatement. He has moved on as if we never existed – and I see the pain in my children’s eyes – not to mention the confusion. ‘Forgiveness’ is a funny word for me too. At 52, I don’t want another man – I took care of him (I was his “mother with benefits”), I am still raising my children and would like to know when it’s going to be my turn?! I gave up my life, my career, my ‘me’ to help my husband with his career (never got paid or thanked), I took care of the house inside and out and raised our 6 children – not to mention home schooling them too, and then POOF – one day he leaves and doesn’t even know who we are anymore.”
This makes me sad. Certainly not in the way you think.
Are women done with men after age 55? It depends what you mean by the word ‘done’. What role does a woman play through a man’s eyes? If we are going to be completely honest here, I would say, “maid”. We are (through a man’s eyes) here to please men. Be it through sex, housekeeping, or ‘keeping the man’s name alive by producing a child, our role in life is to keep a man happy. Women, by nature, are nurturers and therefore we feel we have to ‘take care of everyone’. It doesn’t matter that our husband ignores us or our kids don’t appreciate all we do for them; we continue to nurture our family. Women also tend to ‘make excuses’ for our husbands’ lack of sensitivity. “Bad day at the office”, “not enough sleep”, “money worries” – you fill in the blank for the excuses.
Women want to be appreciated and treated with dignity and respect – just like any man out there. We also want to feel worthwhile and loved – just like any man out there.
If we’re going to be honest, how many men whose spouses also work have taken their kids to the doctor’s office when they were sick? How many of you said, “I can’t take off from work – you do it”. How many of you share in the cooking department? How many change the bed sheets on a weekly basis? Wash the towels? Do the laundry? Wash the dinner dishes? Unload the dishwasher? How many say, “that’s not my job. I cut the grass or fix the leaky faucet.”?
How often do you do these jobs vs. the chores that happen on a daily basis? Where is the equity in the workload?
As the days, weeks, months and years go by, women are constantly reminded that their place is in the home doing the crap jobs – the jobs that never seem to get done and we just do them over and over again. And meanwhile, we are not allowed to complain about our mundane lives because that would make us witches with a “b”.
As long as this country is run by men who feel women are only worth 70 cents to the dollar vs. men, feel women have it easier than men, things will never change for MEN.
Women, on the other hand, are finally starting to figure it out. We are seeing what it really is like to live with a man and yes, be his mother – because that is what the man chooses – he chooses not to “be a man” and grow up and share the responsibilties of playing house. He chooses to remain a boy and complain about how women don’t treat them well. He thinks going to work all day to ‘make the money’ somehow absolves him of having to do anything else.
So, to answer your question…I’m not 55 yet, but I will be in a couple of years – Yes, unfortunately I gave it my all and got nothing in return so I am done with men – I mean the boys who never grew up to be men!
“How often do you do these jobs vs. the chores that happen on a daily basis? Where is the equity in the workload?”
Strawman and demonstrably false.
“As the days, weeks, months and years go by, women are constantly reminded that their place is in the home doing the crap jobs – the jobs that never seem to get done and we just do them over and over again.”
Strawman and again, false.
“As long as this country is run by men who feel women are only worth 70 cents to the dollar vs. men, feel women have it easier than men, things will never change for MEN.”
Control for equal work, and again, false.
“He thinks going to work all day to ‘make the money’ somehow absolves him of having to do anything else.”
Strawman, and fried-ice arrogance.
The rest is typical ‘Man-up” femtard claptrap.
Reminds me of a recent post.
Also note, since I haven’t done a post in a few days this post is the most viewed on the site. Older women are done with men (unless they are married to one). They are so done with men that they seek out posts like this one and drive massive traffic to it, earnestly commenting about how done with men they are.
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Over 55 Divorcee says:
March 21, 2011 at 2:06 am
I have been divorced for over 15 years and only recently have decided to get back into the dating scene. Why did it take me this long? For me, my children came first. Now that they are out of the house or in college, it is my turn. The problem is that I have found very few men around my age who 1) have taken care of themselves physicially and therefore are not pleasing to the eye, 2) know how to communicate intelligently even after all this time and 3) aren’t full of themselves even at their age. Would I want to spend my time with someone like this, not really. While I would love to be in a healthy, caring and fun relationship with a man and even remarry, I have found the companionship of my women friends to be much more fun and intellectually satisfying. According to the data, it sounds like I am pretty normal.
This perfectly describes my feelings. I am a 60 year old woman, working full time, own my own home, have funded my own investments to secure a decent retirement, and I work out almost daily. I’ll run a half marathon for my 61st birthday and did a 10K, half marathon, and 10 miler last year. What use might I have for an out of shape guy with issues??? Sure, I’d be open to a relationship if I met an age appropriate man who was healthy and otherwise attractive to me, but men fitting that description almost always date much younger women. Their loss:)
I am 58, still married with children who are currently leaving home to get on and create their own lives. I am going through the menopause. I haven’t really read much of what is written here. However, my experience of the menopause biologically is hot flashes and insomnia with very low libido. Emotionally I am freer and mentally, my time is now as I am not so bound to nurture and make sure people around me are happy and thriving.
I now have time to make love with my heightened curiosity and many ‘sexy’ issues that really turn me on: the brain; consciousness; astronomy; what is happening with the daily solar winds (do they directly impact our biology?); what can quantum theory really tell us about what we are and where we are headed? Why isn’t there more information on ‘junk’ DNA? And so much more.
Whether we are male or female, straight or gay, married, divorced or single, indulging in or avoiding sex, 20 or 80, who cares!!!!
There is so much more to life than wondering whether we appeal to the opposite sex or we are living alone or apart. Perhaps my husband will get bored with me as younger women move out of his peripheral vision to centre stage, perhaps I may find someone else more stimulating – who knows – c’est la vie! Life thankfully goes on for us all with all sorts of surprises and evolving questions.
Perhaps a lot of things will happen that are socially ‘scary’. One day I will have finished my time on this planet. I just hope that the years left to me allow me to retain my mental faculties and to indulge my sexy curiosity as there is still so much more to explore and discover.
Happy days to everyone wherever and whatever. Life is absolutely brilliant. Enjoy it while you can, however you choose.
Have fun!
Old, happy gal.
Lauravdm2011 – ”If we’re going to be honest, how many men whose spouses also work have taken their kids to the doctor’s office when they were sick?”
I am certainly one. And most of the men I know who are fathers have also done this. In fact, given that my wife cannot simply take off at a monuments notice, I was the primary parent to do so whenever needed. That you even ask this question clearly demonstrates just how clueless you are about the real world. The actual answer is the exact opposite of what you assume it to be.
And, as she works full time, I gladly do my share of house work (even “house work” as narrowly defined by women to include only those things that they are willing to do). It’s no big deal. Not to me, not to most married men I know. In fact, I do not know any man who would send his wife out on a late-night errand; yet most will do just that at their wives request.
Woman like you play on media-presented pop-culture myths of lazy, go-for-nuthin’ bums-as-husbands to try to create this false imagine of the “typical” husband. However, it turns out that more and more, it’s women who have neither domestic skills (no good little daughters of feminists are going to be subjected to that, don’t you know) nor the inclination to keep up a household.
I’ve known quite a few couples in which the wife didn’t work – either outside the home, nor at home. The best of them were much more inclined to do some sort of “volunteer work” (code for doing busy work that could benefit others, but is mostly just and excuse to hang-out with other bored housewives), while the worst were more inclined to just hanging out (coffee, shopping, and not a few who it turned out had other men on the side). Some stay-at-homes even have a maid service – WTF!?!?
This false image of the modern women slaving away to treat her husband is the same sort of fiction as that of the self-absorbed beer-swilling couch potato husband.
Even those surveys intend to show how men aren’t “holding up their end of the housework” routinely demonstrate that men do, in fact, already do a significant portion of all “housework”, even without adjusting for those who have stay-at-home wives, nor including “men’s work” (mowing, snow-shovelling, car maintenance, home repair/remodeling, and many more “household duties” that conveniently gets left off of the “housework” list.
Nice try, but your alternate reality just doesn’t jibe with the reality that most of us know.
We have 5 children and when they were all quite young, my husband would rearrange his work schedule to help me by accompanying us to the doctor’s office because it was too much for either one of us to deal with the child-patient, talk to the doctor, and keep an eye on the other children present. I have always appreciated his hands on approach to parenting despite the fact that he is the sole breadwinner if our household.
The meme that women do all the heavy lifting when it comes to parenting ti waaaay overblown from what I have witnessed; not just from my own husband, but with the husbands of my friends and relatives as well.
Why is it only inside daily housework count as chores but nothing else?
/rhetorical question.
Ginger:
All due respect, your post described nothing attractive or desirable to a man except perhaps that you might be in decent physical shape.
Your post also shows your hatred, contempt and disdain for men. That is why you don’t have one.
Barbarella: Rock on.
@Laura – Men aren’t looking for someone to share the house work with. If all marriage was was splitting chores with a woman and taking each other’s career equally seriously, then the vast majority of men would want nothing to do with it. Additionally, I would say taking the kids to the doctor and having the rest of the day off, or even just spending a little time with the kids, is better than most men’s jobs.
Usually the man’s career is more important, most men I know have full time jobs and make a good deal more than their wives. Personally, I would be fine if my wife didn’t work, and I don’t mind doing the laundry or making dinner once in awhile, but I would never split chores or split mothering the children. That sucks. If you think it sucks too, then maybe men and marriage aren’t for you. Of course, there are men out there who are willing to do what you mention, but, they present no sexual polarity and therefore do not cause much if any attraction towards them, so women ignore them.
A woman’s role is that of support, not of equality. She is equal for the law and before God, but she is supposed to be subservient to the man (I am no old fashioned curmudgeon, there are genuine hypereligious jerks out there who mistreat and practically enslave women, I know, but I’m endorsing that, I am endorsing plain Biblical teaching and what nature tells us). She is supposed to support and push the man in his career, and in return the man is supposed to provide for her and take care of her. Think the Cleaver family from Leave it to Beaver. The majority of men and women are most happy in that kind of arrangement. I will admit that when a woman has to go to work full time or near full time, PLUS take care of the kids, it can be too much, but that is why a man should not go into marriage unless he can provide 100%. I also think that sometimes for a woman a fulltime career, even while young and married, is in order, such as if her and/or her husband cannot have children and are not ready to adopt.
*meant to say I’m *not* endorsing that.
I agree with your comment Bob, as would my husband. He has never minced words on the fact that he has no intention of doing what I am here to do. He is not going to split the housework or cooking with me. And I really don’t mind at all frankly.
The whole “taking-the-kids-to-the doctor” example was just a distraction I think from the larger issue; that being a woman’s tendency to assert that a father’s role is less important than a mother’s role. This is patently false.
Of course, at age 55 there are usually no children around to raise anymore so why would a woman in her 50’s still be complaining about that?
Elspeth – “The whole “taking-the-kids-to-the doctor” example was just a distraction I think from the larger issue”
Good point.
But, just one more note about her “taking the kids to the doctor” question. I had failed to notice that this women had posted earlier, and seems to indicate that she was a Stay-at-home mother:
“I gave up my life, my career, my ‘me’ to help my husband with his career (never got paid or thanked), I took care of the house inside and out and raised our 6 children – not to mention home schooling them too”
She seems to have had a gripe that her husband didn’t take the kids to the doctor, and didn’t do “HIS SHARE” of the housework.
But, isn’t the point of a man providing for his wife to be at home that she be available (not stuck at a job) to take care of the children, including taking them to the doctor for no-emergency treatment during normal Dr Office hours? And, if he’s out spending the better part of his waking hours working to provide financially, just how much of the “housework” would it even be reasonable to expect him to do?
She posed a rather lengthy and detailed list, which, I assume she actually expected of him. I have to wonder, given that he seems not to have spent his few hours at home doing “His part”, just how much she must have nagged him?
So, “poof”, one day he gone… I wonder why?[/snark]
Okay, I feel that I need to follow up that snarky comment with this disclaimer:
I am in no way condoning a man deserting his wife and children.
An ex-friend of mine did just that to his wife and four kids (hence, the reason he is no longer my friend).
In fact, I cannot think of any other of the men who knew him that are still on any sort of friendly terms with him.
Kind of fits in with a general trend I have noticed over the years – when a woman decides to dump her husband (and take the kids away from him), other women tend to rally around her, and support her with a chorus of, “you go grrl!”
Conversely, in my experience, if a man abandons wife and children, other men tend to shun him with a chorus of, “go away, a$$hole!”
I have always taken our kids to the doctor. I like to keep an eye on their medical issues and I understand the jargon better than my wife. But I am like Elspeth’s husband. There are some household tasks I leave to my wife. I just retired, so we will probably renegotiate a bit, but I am not becoming a “househusband”.
My broader point is that men do plenty around the house, not all of it outdoors. Each couple finds their own level. My father was no feminist, but he cooked breakfast every morning for us, in Australia in the 1960s.
Wow, this whole ‘taking the kids to the doctor’s office’ have got some of you in an uproar! After our first born, I went back to work part-time as a software educator. I then came home and did all those womanly chores that supposedly women love to do, you know, cook, clean, cut the grass, paint, etc.
Should I mention that when I was 7 months pregnant with baby #1, my husband asked me if I could ‘cut the grass at night so the neighbors wouldn’t see me.?’ Okay, red flag right there but the nurturing in me let it go. After baby #2, I again went back to work part-time but baby #2 was a bit sickly and so someone had to take him to the doctor. Being an instructor, if wasn’t there for class, it wasn’t going to get taught by itself and hence, I had to quit my job because he certainly couldn’t take off from work. (Oh, and by the way, my salary compared to his.)
When I said I ‘helped him with his career’ – he worked at home. He told me, not asked me, that I would be his personal secretary, I did his accounts receivable, I was the customer service/complant department and I proofread his manuals. (that’s my definition of ‘helping him with his career’) One minute I was nursing a baby while singing a nursery song to the others and the next I was running down the basement answering his phone sounding mighty professional, I have always taken pride in whatever task is put before me.
When he walked out on me and his kids, it wasn’t for another woman. It was to play ice hockey, ice and roller skate! His boys played hockey and he never wanted to take them – now I know why – he wanted to do it himself instead.
He still works but every free minute he gets he is either skating on the ice or on the rink. He has no time to call his kids – he thinks they should call him.
And let me just say, we wanted these kids – yes we – and to compare being ‘stuck at a job all day’ or ‘staying at home’ – at my job, I wore a suit and high heals – a good 3 inches – I was not allowed to sit. I was on my feet for 7 hours. I had more energy on the days that I worked than the days that I stayed home with my kids – you have to watch them 24/7, and entertain them (I didn’t use a TV to babysit them). Some of us moms don’t sit on the couch eating bon bons all day.
As I said in my first post, you haven’t walked in my shoes, nor I in yours. So quit assumin’ and judgin’. I am trying to get a positive outlook on life and I was replying to a woman who had one and I wanted to thank her. I was searching the internet for something entirely different. This whole forum was about women being done with men. I guess there are some women out there who feel their whole purpose is to please a man and obey his every command. I interpreted my vows a completely different way. My bad!
I’m not here to bash men; I’m here to tell my side of the story as to why I am done with men even before I turn 55. If there are any men out there who think women are their equal, and treat them with dignity and respect, I sure would like to hear from them ,,,,, complete …. silence!
lauravdm2011 – “So quit assumin’ and judgin’.”
Given that it was you who started in with the snarky “How many of you men…”, that same remark would be also apply to you.
You give us plenty of detail on how your husband was, well, not exactly what a husband should be, but then, with about zero knowledge of any of us, you start throwing out those typical anti-male assumptions, seeming to judge that all men are like what your husband was like.
I can understand that you don’t appreciate others, like myself, making assumptions about you and what happened in your marriage based on generalizations about the behaviors of other women.
Fair enough.
So, consider that men might not appreciate you doing the same.
“I’m not here to bash men”
You sure have a funny way of not bashing, then don’t you.
Let me remind you of what you posted:
“As long as this country is run by men who feel women are only worth 70 cents to the dollar vs. men, feel women have it easier than men, things will never change for MEN.
Women, on the other hand, are finally starting to figure it out. We are seeing what it really is like to live with a man and yes, be his mother – because that is what the man chooses – he chooses not to “be a man” and grow up and share the responsibilties of playing house. He chooses to remain a boy and complain about how women don’t treat them well. He thinks going to work all day to ‘make the money’ somehow absolves him of having to do anything else.”
Really? You’re not here to bash men?
Gee, I’d hate to see what you’d be posting if you were.
Nope, I really wasn’t trying to bash men…
Laura, that 70 cent thing is inflammatory nonsense. You must know better than that.
I am a 45 year old spinster with a lot of male companionship. But I am reading here that the good times will be over in about ten years. I am not sure when I need to not have men anymore. But on the day I decide I will sit on the couch in celebration and eat all the potato chips I want. And I won’t care because all the men are off chasing younger women and I can now be fat. And I am looking forward to being fat too. At what age can I start letting myself go because it’s over anyway?
@Laura – You’re really letting your emotions cloud your logic. Just because you had a dick husband back in the day doesn’t mean any of these things which we say aren’t true. It’s good you supported him, if he’s going to be a hole there’s nothing you can do, but don’t take it out on mankind. Plenty of men treat their wives great for years only to have them cheat and leave them. My aunt up and left her husband and 5 sons for some random guy.
The 70 cents on the dollar thing is simply untrue. If it were true, I could open a corporation in any field and hire all women and undercut every other corporation or firm out there and become a near instant millionaire. Plus, the fact is, men shoul make more, as we cannot get pregnant and won’t be taken out of the labor market for extended periods for child rearing. We’re better, safer investments for many lines of work. We were built better to handleanual labor than women, and we Have much better longevity as we tend to be more ambitious all around, and we don’t burn out mentally as easily as women do in general. That’s why even though women may make more than men do the same work due to sexist, Anti-capitalist laws, we will always dominate corporate boardrooms, legislatures and military leadership. And American men will not suffer any damn quotas.
Laura, I believe you weren’t trying to bash men. The problem is that like 99% of Western women, you have never learned NOT to bash men. From the “boys are so dumb” days of childhood, we have been taught to bash men, subtlely and blatantly. Every negative thought you’ve ever had about men, legitimate or not, has been reinforced by society. This is a safe world in which to despise men.
It sounds like your husband was a selfish, arrogant jerk. If you’re telling the truth about your marriage you were probably a good wife, supportive of a man who took your support for granted and used you. If you contributed 50% of the income and 90% of the home chores, he was not doing his part. I understand your bitterness but I have good news for you: he was the exception, not the rule. The Manosphere is a wonderful place for a good woman to learn what’s really going on, and I suggest you snoop around; this is where you will learn what to teach your sons so they won’t grow up to be like their father. Far too many of the men here have come from relationships and marriages where they contributed 90% of the income and 40-70% of the home chores, and were used and taken for granted. They feel very much like you do, but they have far less support form a society that tells them to suck it up and do their manly duty.
Yes there’s a lot of bitterness expressed here, by men who have been betrayed – by women, by other men, and by society as a whole. But most of the commenters here don’t hate women; they value REAL women, as women, not as short men with boobs (which is exactly what feminism has taught women to act like.) You may have seen comments from men who appear to be arrogant jerks. God knows such men exist. Keep reading; the dynamics here are fascinating, and to a degree they do mirror the dynamics on women’s forums. However there is far more tolerance for diverse opinions here, than I’ve ever seen among women. Comments here occasionally promote extreme or irrational mindsets; more often than not those comments are dissected and refuted, or acknowledged and appropriately labelled as “fringe.” Sometimes they are ignored, and sometimes their legitimate aspects are validated. But they are all welcome.
Women are empathetic creatures who need sympathy and support, so don’t feel “weak” for seeking it out, but for your own sake stick with supporters who say, ” Your husband was a jerk.” Stay away from those who say, “Men are jerks.” It’s a lie. You have been victimized and you now have a choice: Live as a victim and wallow in it, or leave your victim status behind.
Tell any story you want, but men and women do not divorce without some reason. When you are young and marry for the 1st time you have no stories to tell and it is the beginning of your happy or sad story. My advice to to all divorced…leave the past as quick as possible…..I was married 25 years, end of my story. It is true that most men over 40 are not looking for a women their same age. Just the way it is. Does not mean a divorced woman over 50 has no value, as many do. It cracks me up that many women on this blog boast about older women snagging young men. Just a story and in the long run, does not hold water. Any 45 year old man seriously looking for a relationship with a 60 year old woman has a motive, just like a 30 year old woman dating a 55 year old man. To remind you that the focus of this blog is “Are 55 year old women done with men”. The answer is pretty clear from the responses…not because they want to be…
SUZ…..extremely concise summary of the comments here. People who have been hurt will lash out…often at the opposite sex as a whole, instead of the individual. This is a good discussion, and it is interesting to hear the perspectives of all.
I don’t know – maybe it’s the cold weather freezing my brain cells but it seems to me that all women are good for is staying home and raising the kids and we should leave the rest to the men. After all, according to you, Bob, :
Plus, the fact is, men should make more, as we cannot get pregnant and won’t be taken out of the labor market for extended periods for child rearing. We’re better, safer investments for many lines of work. We were built better to handle manual labor than women, and we Have much better longevity as we tend to be more ambitious all around, and we don’t burn out mentally as easily as women do in general.
Maybe I just don’t know my place in society….
And Suz, I was never brought up that “boys are so dumb”. I’ve never heard that in my life. I was brought up that boys could do anything, stay out later than girls, and the old “boys will be boys”. What I will take from you is “leave your victim status behind” .
I would like to know what a man is looking for in a woman….Bob?
Hey Laura, your timing is great!
Dalrock has a post with ‘boys are dumb’ written all over it, hot from the lame stream media.
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/why-have-misandry-delivered-when-you-can-bake-it-at-home/
Stuff men look for?
honesty and a grip on reality (sorry to be the bearer of bad news as you’re short on both, judging by your post)
A woman’s role isn’t only to stay at home and take care of the kids, it’s her primary role. It should supercede all else. Taking care of the kids is in fact the most important job there is because kids are the next generation of humanity. It should not be looked down upon as if it is an inferior job to a “career” or as if it sucks, because the reality is it is extremely important and most women like it because it is in the nature to nurture. Years of feminism have conditioned women to think that raising the kids is inferior, that men can do just as good of a job of it, that the “patriarchy” has forced women to do it so they can go have big fun careers, etc. Your place in society is decided by many factors, and we live in America so you’re perfectly welcome to shun motherhood and staying home and instead having a fulltime career while you’re young, or finding a man who will share the chores 50/50 with you, or whatever you want. It’s just not Biblical (in most cases) and women are usually much happier staying home and raising a family, it’s a scientific fact. Happiness rates for women have plummeted since the 1950’s.
What men look for in a woman is rather simple, we’re not that complex. A man wants a woman who will let him lead and loves and takes care of him and the kids. It’s nice to come home to a homemade dinner, to have someone who listens to you, takes care of your laundry and the housework, etc. It lets a man work 8-10 hours a day without going insane. I’m sure you would also like that kind of stuff, but are you willing to work 8-10 hours a day 5 times a week and have a stay at home husband? If so, you’re very different from the vast majority of women who would not want to take on a traditionally masculine role. Most women find stay at home dads unattractive, there was a study that came out a couple months ago showing that couples with switched roles usually have terrible sex lives.
There are women out there who can’t handle staying home with the kids, and as I said, they’re free to do whatever they want. But most men aren’t looking for them. We’re not selfish, we’re just oriented towards being in the provider position. That’s just the way we were made. Men really should be the head of the household, as that is what is what most men and women want, even if some women won’t state it that way. It doesn’t mean a man has to be a domineering jerk, it means he takes total responsibility for the welfare of his family and its provisions. Most women find a man who leads attractive, and shun those who just want to follow the woman’s lead as if that’s what women want.
If you really did the things you said you did, and did not give your husband a hard time about it, then he is a real dumbass who does not know how great he had it, and left an excellent wife. But again, you need to realize women stiff great men too, and not take out your frustrations on the other gender or turn to crazy feminist theories which do not match with reality, and just cause you to grow more and more bitter.
Suz
But most of the commenters here don’t hate women; they value REAL women, as women, not as short men with boobs (which is exactly what feminism has taught women to act like.)
Actually, feminism has taught women to be short, angry men with boobs. The perpetual anger is the cherry on top of the sundae, as it were. Nothing says “good times” like listening to yet another angry monologue about someone else’s work at the end of a long day.
Thanks for reminding me to post this.
“Laura:…And Suz, I was never brought up that “boys are so dumb”. I’ve never heard that in my life.”
If you grew up in the US this past half century, you HAVE heard it. Perhaps you just didn’t notice it. It’s everywhere and frequently it’s subtle.
“…it seems to me that all women are good for is staying home and raising the kids and we should leave the rest to the men.”
It’s not male oppression, it is our biological design, and feminism denies biology. This is not to say that women don’t have the right to follow any path they choose; this world is full of women who are well-suited to non-domestic work, and who have the opportunity to pursue it. The problem is women who make unrealistic choices, then demand that “someone else” take up their slack – someone like a husband, or the government, or their employer, or daycare. That is a result of another lie of feminism: “women can have it all.” We can’t. Sorry. A woman who chooses to have children should strive to raise them. Of course these days most mothers “must” work outside the home in order to pay the bills. Really? How did that come to be the norm? Why did they choose to have children before they could raise them on one income? Why didn’t they work for a few years, save their income, and put it into a house they could afford? Because someone told them they didn’t have to. Western culture tell us we can have a “rewarding career” AND be good mothers, that we can still be “good mothers” if we pay someone else to raise our children. It tells us not to bother wasting our time being good wives, and that our husbands have a duty to sacrifice so that we can “have it all.” Because we women are entitled to have it all.
It’s been a hundred years since feminism demanded legal equality; now it demands inequality, legally, socially and morally. Feminism has made it easy for women to be irresponsible, to attempt to do it all, instead making a choice, sticking with it, and doing it properly. Men don’t have that option. Most men don’t object to “career women” per se. They object to “career women” who expect men to see them as ideal potential wives/mothers. They object to wives/mothers who resent having sacrificed their “real” careers in order to raise children, then take their resentment out on their husbands. Feminism has turned men and children into objects, useful tools and accessories for women to play with. Western culture has downgraded the position of wife-and-mother from a vocation to a part time job. If you doubt that, look around you at two generations of children raised by mothers who think “mothering” is optional, and by ex-wives who think child support and public aid are just as good as a stable family.
Let me tell you about two of the smartest, most responsible women I know – my sisters, aged 50 and 51. “SisterMediator” married her college boyfriend and worked her tail off for a few years as a technical editor. She left her job near the end of her only pregnancy, and spent the next 20 years raising her child. Her husband is an attorney whose career has stumbled over some awful roadblocks, but SisterMediator never had to go back to work because they were frugal financial planners. She went back to school while her daughter was in college, and she now has good part time job. She “had it all” but she did it all one thing at a time, and she didn’t abdicate her moral responsibility to any aspect of her life.
SisterFed just retired from federal law enforcement. It wasn’t her dream career, but it was a good career. She never married or had children; she didn’t even have houseplants because she traveled so much. Her home is paid off and she’s building a cabin in the mountains. If she had married, she would have “given it all up” to be a mother. In a heartbeat.
Neither sister ever made a commitment she couldn’t, wouldn’t or didn’t keep. Think about it. How rare is that? 90% of American women make life choices that force them to break their commitments. We don’t think things through; we don’t have to, because someone else will be there to clean up out messes. Men are getting tired of being that someone.
@Bob
I love motherhood – I raised (and am sill raising some) my kids to be good, produtive citizens. Treat people the way you want t be treated. Unfortunatly, society doesn’t think stay-at-home-moms have a tough life at all. No one sees how organized a good mother has to be. Shuffling school, activities, cooking, cleaning – it’s no big deal. Being at the office, on the other hand, is a big deal!
You say women like motherhood because by nature we nurture. I agree with that. How, Bob, does it feel to be nurtured? How does it feel to have a meal wating for you on the table when you get home from work? Do you enjoy that your suits are waiting for you in your closet fresh from the cleaners? Your laundry folded and put away in your drawers? How do you feel being taken care of day in and day out? You speak of working outside the home 8-10 hours a day. What are you doing on the weekend? Waiting to get nurtured again?
I ask because the women I know would also like to be ‘nurtured’ by their husbands but because their husbands work 8 – 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, they are ‘too tired’ to nurture their wives and after all, according to you, nurturing is not part of a man’s role in society.
A man wants to lead the family – translation:
A man will do what he wants when he wants – I do my job, now you, little lady, do yours and shut those kids up so I can watch TV.
A man wants to be a provider – translation:
My job as a man is to go to work 8 – 10 hours a day, 5 days a week You figure out how to pay the bils on my salary – cut back if you have to. I make the money; I deserve to spend it anyway I feel fit – YOU, little lady, cut back.
A man has total responsibility of the welfare of his family – translation:
I work all day, I’m too tired to take the kids to practice. What do YOU do all day! You’re the mother, it’s YOUR job to take care of the kids – you’re the nurturer now go!
Men really should be the head of the household, as that is what is what most men and women want – translation:
The head of the household makes all the household rules. The man is in charge and that’s the way we men like it. Let’s put our women in their places – taking care of me, me, me.
It is my experience, Bob, that women wouldn’t mind taking care of the house if they were truly appreciated by both their spouses and their kids. Children are smart and they learn how to treat their mother by the way the father treats his wife. If the husband is doing his job besides his 8 -10 hours a day, life would be good. Moms would be respected. Women might be nurturers by nature, but hey, we would like a little nurturing ourselves.
Your sentence about coming home to a homecooked meal, etc. leads me to believe that what a man really wants is a mother with benefits….
“…It is my experience…”
That right there. Your experience is that you were married to a self-entitled horse’s ass who twisted some valid principles around to suit his whims. Why are you attacking the principles instead of the individual man who abused them? And why did you marry a prick? Were there no red flags as to his character? Did you see them and ignore them? Did you marry him before you had time to see them? Did you allow yourself to get pregnant and “have to” marry him? I’m not absolving him of his idiocy, but I’m tired of society absolving “victim” wives of their complicity in bad marriages. You can’t do anything about his mistakes, but you can learn from yours. My suggestion: take your bitterness and turn it into productive anger – at him for taking so much, and at yourself for letting him take. This world is full of men who would give their right arms for a wife like you, out of appreciation, not because they think they deserve it. They have experienced the other kind of wife so they know your worth, but don’t expect them to trust you right away. Like you, they’ve been badly burned.
I shouldn’t even answer your question but I will. No, I did not ‘get pregnant’ We were married for four years and purchased a house in which to raise our family. Don’t really know what difference it would have made – it takes two to make a baby – and as a responsible adult I would have never ‘trapped’ my HUSBAND (or anyone else) by producing a child!
Isn’t that how we form our opinions – by experience? I have spoken with many women from all walks of life and we all seem to be experiencing the same things – women are here to serve and please the man while the man provides the money so he can be waited on hand and foot. I seem to hear a lot of women talk about the ‘pricks’ out there. You have DISMISSED my whole post to a couple of words – “it is my experience” and twisted my words in such a way that all you got out of this was I am bitter.
Suz, what are the principles to which you refer? And where oh where are these men who appreciate a good woman? What part of the planet are you speaking of? I’m in – as long as it’s not too cold there. 🙂
lauradm2011 – “You have DISMISSED my whole post to a couple of words – “it is my experience” and twisted my words in such a way that all you got out of this was I am bitter.”
Because you continue to act as if YOUR EXPERIENCE dictates the way men/husbands generally behave. Outside of the ghetto and the bottom end of the working class, what you describe has not been the norm of family life for quite some time.
While there may be a few men who come home from work and just want to watch TV, it seems that theres a good chance that they are men with very physically demanding jobs. Still, the Nielsen ratings don’t lie, the primary audience for TV consumption has long been women – and not just daytime TV, but prime time as well. The media and advertisers know better than to risk angering their biggest demographic, thus the imagery is only of useless dim-witted husbands, and not of lazy fat semi-comatose female TV-watchin’ couch potatoes. No matter that they exist in the millions.
And, both of these negative stereo-types are primarily representative of the lower socioeconomic classes. As one looks further up the classes, one finds that married men are still largely invested in both home and family. And far more men are “forced” out of their marriages, families, and children’s lives than chose to leave them. Woman not only file the majority of divorce action, but they are also well known to employ false accusation against the fathers of their children as part of a strategy to secure primary, if not sole, custody of the children (and the attenuate support money).
You continue to bash men collectively, while trying to deny you are doing exactly what you are doing. Now, you bitterly complain that your bitter comments are being sen as bitter.
You might want to Google “cognitive dissonance”, or at least “intellectual dishonesty”.
I detect a deep insecurity in Laura. She takes offense with Bob’s truthful comment that men are better equipped to do some things. She lives in the land of a false “should be.”
She projects that acting like a mother was her primary role as a wife. I wonder if she has considered that her attitude toward her ex-husband in large part created the circumstance that she now complains about. A man does not want a mother, he wants a wife! A man wants an active willing sexual partner and I wonder if she embraced this role. If a woman insists on being a mother to him, he will close himself off to her. A man does not want to make love to his mother!
Hence why most good men avoid women over 55; he does not want another surrogate mother. If a woman over 55 doesn’t act like his mother, has a good attitude, is reasonably attractive, she is likely to find a good man. This will not happen on her “empowered,” entitlement terms but is possible if she is a good feminine woman.
Stupid me for thinking I have a brain to have an opinion on anything! My bad! Trust me; women don’t want to be a mother to our husbands….read Bob’s post of how simple a man is and what makes a man happy and then remember that that is exactly what a mother does for her child/children.
When a man comes home after work, what does he do? Have a meaninful conversation with his wife?
Tell me, slwerner, 7man, suz and the rest of you out there, if men are so wonderful then why are women the ones who initiate the divorces? (And far more men are “forced” out of their marriages, families, and children’s lives than chose to leave them. This line taken from slwerner’s post) And what you all post is FACT and what I post comes from a BITTER person?
Laura,
The principles to which I refer are the biologically based “traditional” gender roles.
I think you’re talking to the wrong women; find some who are happy in their marriages. They’re all around you, but they’re fairly quiet. They’re the ones who don’t join in the man-bashing conversations. Here’s a hint: 30 years ago my boss married the smartest man she’d ever met. He is now “utterly incompetent, an idiot.” Not because he never does stuff around the house, but because he never does exactly what she wants, when she wants it, and how she wants it done. Years ago, he gave up trying. Have you met this woman? “I seem to hear a lot of women talk about the ‘pricks’ out there.” I think you have. Stay away from her. She doesn’t want you to be any happier than she is.
As for good men, a lot of them have been snapped up and held onto by good women. A lot more of them have been dumped by shrews. They’re hurt, angry, and defensive, just like you, so on the surface they may not look like good guys. If you want a man to look for the good in you, look for the good in him. If you’d rather not bother, then I guess you’re done with men after all. If you remain bitter, it’s your choice.
It’s possible that the smartest thing you’ve ever done was to come to this forum. You can use what you learn here to support your negative bias, or you can develop an understanding of men’s humanity – what they don’t dare to say out loud in Western society, the good and the bad. Seek out the good. Get comfortable with it. Learn to recognize it so you can see it in men you meet. Warts and all, the Manosphere is a gift to moral women who ache to be true to their deepest identities. But be warned, if you accept this gift you will be spitting in society’s face; our culture denies the reality of the “female” identity, and it leave men twisting in the wind, with no good choices.
@Laura,
You are both confirming that you think a woman’s role is to be like a mother and then denying that you want to do that. And you play the victim because others do not agree with you. How is a “meaningful conversation” possible when you resort to this tactic? No one called you stupid, so stop your whining!
Did you ever allow a “meaningful conversation” about something he wanted to talk about? Did you expect him to thank you for all the things you did for him? Did you ever thank him for going to work every day and earning the money to provide for his family? Were you an active willing sexual partner? Did you try to tell him how to do things, what he should do and when he should do it? Did you follow his lead? Did you trust him or did your mistrust and contempt for him cause him to give up trying to please a woman that could never be pleased? Have you always played the “poor Laura” victim role?
“if men are so wonderful then why are women the ones who initiate the divorces?”
First no one said men are so wonderful. You are using a sarcastic projection. Stop it because this is the poison that helped ruin your marriage!
An untrusting woman attempts to control everything around her and the people in her life in order to feel secure. Such a woman is also not sexually generous. This never works and a woman ends up feeling even more insecure and exhausted. This leads to unhappiness, blaming others and contempt for the man and then she files for divorce because of her FEELINGS. Other women placate and pander to her about this decision. That is the reason why so many women initiate divorces.
” if men are so wonderful then why are women the ones who initiate the divorces?”
Logical fallacy. Men are “forced out of their marriages” because women suddenly realize that they didn’t marry prince charming. They are unhaaaapy, and they believe they are entitled to be fulfilled. It never occurs to them to to fulfill themselves, to live out their commitments, work through the hard parts, and build a fulfilling marriage. Abuse, addiction and infidelity are valid reasons for divorce. Varying forms of the seven-year-itch are not. They are obstacles to be overcome. But it’s a hell of a lot easier to walk away with the house, the kids and the child support, than it is to turn a weak marriage into a strong one.
“Unhappy” women initiate the majority of divorces BECAUSE THEY CAN. The consequences for doing so are negligible. “Unhappy” men have a lot more to lose. Justify it any way you will, but decades of statistics don’t lie. No fault divorce and pro-female family law has made it easy for women to back out of their so-called “commitments.” God forbid we fragile flowers should have to take the bad with the good.
@Laura – You’re a complete idiot and need to stay away from arguing with anybody if you think your experience is a valid basis to extrapolate across all men and women. That’s just absurd. I’ve had bad experiences with women myself and I don’t assume all women are sluts and bitches.
There is a lot of crossover between a wife and a mother. She makes dinner for both her husband and children, for example. It would be kind of weird if you just made dinner for the kids and ignored your husband, or vice versa. Just because my mom made dinner and I’d like my wife to, it doesn’t mean I want a mom. Both traditional mothers and traditional wives make dinner, do laundry, etc. I do plenty of both too and did my entire single life so it’s not like it’s foreign to me. But if I’m at work all day and she’s at home all day, why on earth would I do the laundry? There are a few exceptions, but in general, it makes no sense for me to do the laundry.
Furthermore, most women want kids and like cooking and taking care of domestic work. I’ve dated women who have high end political careers who wanted to leave that to be a wife and mother and live on an Army base (I went from politics to the military). If they didn’t like traditional gender roles then why did they want that? Look, most women want to be subservient to the man and lead by the man. They are looking for a guy who will take charge and provide. There’s a minority of women like you who want a more feminine male to share the chores with, and that’s fine. Maybe you can find a soft man who wants what you want. But it’s futile to come here and criticize people who don’t want what you want, and it’s downright foolish to assume all men are like your husband. Your experience is 1 example out of billions, and no, rational human beings do not argue solely from their experiences and neglect the rest of mankind.
Bob explains the dynamics of family relationships very well.
Laura, I think you should take a step back and really consider what is being said here. There are plenty of people here who offer comments I disagree with from time to time, but it seems everyone in this discussion is contributing in good faith. The truth is that most women today are ill-equipped to deal with the realities of married life without reacting as if they were the victim of an elaborate hoax, LOL.
Elspeth is right. That’s why you need to know exactly what a woman wants before you marry her. It’s important to clarify what you expect an listen to what she wants. Almost always the woman wants a traditional role eventually. They’re just looking for the right guy to do it with.
Suz is also right. On this website you have a large example of evidence of women treating men poorly, yet you ignore all of it and focus on only your personal, bad experience. You ignore all these men telling you their stories, and just keep pointing to yourself and your victimization from your ex-husband as if you are the only person who matters and everyone else is irrelevant or lying. There are bad men and bad women. Just because there are bad men, it isn’t an argument against traditional gender roles. You’re basically saying this: “My ex husband was a complete jerk and I hated my life that I voluntarily chose to live, therefore, traditional gender roles are bad, and all men are lazy and looking for mothers.”
Funny, your opinions are factual and I am an idiot for sharing mine! Whatever you say, Bob, and the rest of you out there! You are so right and I’m an idiot! Happy?
You’re basically saying this: “My ex husband was a complete jerk and I hated my life that I voluntarily chose to live, therefore, traditional gender roles are bad, and all men are lazy and looking for mothers.”
Exactly. You can choose to be bitter toward men in general or you can admit that you chose poorly, take responsibility for your part, and try to avoid repeating mistakes.
Laura, you are a lifelong victim, from birth everything has been a conspiracy against you to belittle you and make you small. We had a meeting in 1959 to determine our next victim, we decided to name her Laura, and so your mother was given the task to begin. Now we have succeeded in our great work, and our fruits have ripened into delicious bitterness for us to feed upon. We have instilled in you a feeling that everyone is your enemy, and nothing except your own ego will protect you from our tendrils digging deep into your subconscious.
If any of this sounds ridiculous, it is only because of our perfect training, ignore the man behind the curtain.
Funny, your opinions are factual and I am an idiot for sharing mine!
No, Laura. The point is that your marital experience is just that- your experience. The reality is that most married women look forward to switching to a more traditional role when they have their first child. Here’s just one article among many I found after a quick glance:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1251873/What-women-want-2010-A-husband-wholl-main-breadwinner.html
Amazingly, and I’m speaking from my experience here conversing with numerous wives over the years, these same women expect their husbands to share household responsibilities in much the same way they did when both of them worked. This is an absurd expectation, and they are stunned, shocked, betrayed when a man who has worked 8-10 hours doesn’t want to come home and put away the dishes.
Honestly, I think modern women watch too much television and read too many insipid magazine articles. I don’t know how else to explain it.
If a woman does not want to fulfill the traditional role she should make that clear, and if her feelings change she needs to be prepared for a reasonable renegotiation of the marital dynamic.
Sadly most wives approach marriage with a “my way or the highway” mentality. And if the husband doesn’t play along, he’s painted as evil.
I didn’t mean to pile on here Laura, I just fear you don’t have an open mind and are completely unwilling to even consider marriage from a husband’s perspective. And it’s impossible to be a good mate without the ability to do that.
You should probably remain single going forward until you can.
For the record, I am a wife of nearly 18 years (anniversary next month) so I am fully aware of the challenges as well as the joys of married life.
@Laura
“Funny, your opinions are factual and I am an idiot for sharing mine! Whatever you say, Bob, and the rest of you out there! You are so right and I’m an idiot! Happy?”
Still you play the victim since others do not agree with you. Stop your whining! We do not exist to pander to you. Good men will run from you because of your attitude. You seem to be a perpetual victim by blaming men and never looking inside yourself for your own culpability.
Who will volunteer to host the pity party for Laura?
Laura, if you are still reading this, YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT! (Unless you’re a very stubborn idiot, in which case you’re in over your head.) Please, seriously consider the facts that are presented to you and try not to take the criticism personally. The guys here feel free to express themselves unhindered by delicate social niceties. That’s why I like them even when I disagree with them. The slings and arrows may be a little painful, but that’s the way of rational unfiltered truth – sometimes it hurts.
I have seen several guys here acknowledge that some men are jerks and that your husband is likely one of them. That is one hell of a concession to a stranger, in a forum that is biased in favor of males. Just because nobody is patting you on the head and empathizing with your self-pity, doesn’t mean we’re being irrational, or that we don’t care. On the contrary, we are very rationally analyzing your situation, we’re just not giving you extra points for being a victim. This is a place to find valuable knowledge, not useless sympathy. You’re getting the same message everybody gets. Nobody here says,”Suck it up and do what you’re told.” They say, “Suck it up and do what YOU know is right, regardless of ‘the rules.’ Learn and move forward.” If men are so uncaring and selfish, why would they bother?
Suz, thanks for telling me I’m not an idiot. If I had the time, I would go back and re-read all my post and analyze my writings and see if I feel I’m trying to be the “victim”. I don’t need pity, nor do I want it. Yes, I had a bad experience -26 years worth. Why did I stay? Duh, for the sake of the children – all the books say you should – but now they’re changing their minds on that one, too and I guess I had no time to read up on the new findings.
I don’t need anyone to agree with my opinions – I would just like for them to be acknowledged and not dismissed. They are my opinions based on personal experience and from listening to other people talk over the years. So 7man, if you host my pity party, I like my beer icy cold – domestic is fine – chips and popcorn would go well with my beers. Oh, and I’d prefer music in the background and no television – I must be an exception – I don’t watch TV.
@Laura – I am sorry that the man you married turned out to be a jerk. This blog is not the best place to find understanding and support, because many of us men have been screwed over by female jerks. The feelings on both sides are very raw. I wish we could all be a bit more civil.
“Your time” may begin sooner than you think. The phrase “mother with benefits” will make you famous for 15 minutes. Expect a phone call from Oprah any day now …
Might we acknowledge that there might just be another side to the multi-decade story of woe?
It’s very rare that one side owns the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Don’t expect me to be party to the stoning of ‘Mr Laura’ just because she’s screaming victim.
In real life I’d be heading for the exit as soon as the oh-woe-is-me started up. As would any man with a brain, stay away from the drama queens – and no, it wouldn’t make any difference to me if every single word you wrote was true. My story makes me very aware of the special way ex-wives can rationalise their divorce, lying did not seem to be any problem whatsoever for her, or her mother.
You came to the wrong place for a pity-party, especially a femine one – but you knew that, so why are you here? I can’t think of any healthy reasons.
“Unhappy” women initiate the majority of divorces BECAUSE THEY CAN. The consequences for doing so are negligible. “Unhappy” men have a lot more to lose. Justify it any way you will, but decades of statistics don’t lie. No fault divorce and pro-female family law has made it easy for women to back out of their so-called “commitments.” God forbid we fragile flowers should have to take the bad with the good.
***************************************************************************************************************************
Very true. In most cases, it is easier for a woman to initiate a divorce. Even if she is the town “cougar” and having sex with many young men, the courts will still award her 50% or more of the husband’s assets even if he had most of this stuff before he met the wife. Pre-marital property issues do not stand up in family court any longer. It is easy to claim abuse even if there had never been any police reports or trips to the emergency room. A man has to prove a negative. Unless a woman is wealthy, marriage is far riskier for a man.
It is easy to claim abuse even if there had never been any police reports or trips to the emergency room.
All a woman has to do is throw out accusations and she is rewarded with cash for it. Even if the man is never convicted of anything, his reputation can be ruined by false accusations and thereafter he is treated as a criminal because of it. When you sling mud, some sticks.
It is easier for most people to believe the worst things about a man (even if that man is their own brother or son) than it is for them to believe the whole system is screwed and that a woman would make hideous accusations that aren’t even true.
@ Marilyn…While this blog is about women being through with men you have brought up a great Blog idea for Dalrock…Are men done with women after Divorce. You are so right on and believe me, after a man gets a divorce (if he has any worth) in this day and time, he may not lose interest in women, but he certainly loses interest in marriage. If you live in some states, like California, you not only lose half of everything, but get saddled with alimony. If you were married over 5 years, that alimony goes on “forever” or until the woman remarries. I was in the Medical Device business for 35 years and set up a speaking and training engagement for a well known Doctor in Los Angeles to attend our meeting in Palm Springs. I just happened to be in the parking lot when he drove up in a 10 plus year old volkswagen bug. I asked if he was a car collector and he said, “no, I have been divorced twice”. I was married for 25 years when precious decided to find herself, file for divorce and gave me the two daughters to raise 24 / 7. Personally I wake up every day and thank her for leaving. It was a little tramatic to deal with this as I was always the provider / daddy. I learned to become a parent and raising the girls was the best experience of my life. With a free mind not bogged down with why isn’t the wife happy issues, I recovered financially in less than 5 years. I do not know the number or percentage, but I do know I have been forced to give up good relationships because I would not take the next step … remarriage…..My guess is that more men than not are riding in this boat with me….After the children are gone…why would anyone want to remarry….I know the answer; “security”.
I do not even know how I got on this blog or why, but I get email notices and read the comments and can not believe some of the post. I just had to thank you for writing it as it really is, even if a little off the subject. You are my new Blog hero , hahaha
@CL and any men on this blog. The wife may start the divorce proceedings, but it is the real slim of the earth (Lawyers) that come up with ideas to make a man miserable. Women that decide to divorce are normally angry at the husband and lawyers can give them ideas to help them do what is called in the legal system “get a leg up”. Here is free advice to all men getting a divorce. The legal system is in place for every state. Learn what the law is for divorce in your state. Most states view a divorce settlement to be 50-50. If that is the law, that is what a judge will rule. You lose if you let your lawyers convince you that it should be 40-60 or even worse. Take your medicine and save a bundle by filing for court ordered mediation. At best, this takes 6 months and you can be divorced in 6 months. You do not have to write nasty letters back and forth through your lawyers. One caveat does exist and this is if you are fighting over child custody. Then you do have to bring in court requested studies and be subject to therapy sessions. However, both the wife and husband are included in this. If the wife is dead set to just make you life miserable, you will run into obstacles, so you just stick to the court ordered mediation as it will happen. Part of that process is that the Judge is involved and if you can not decide on certain issues, they will and the divorce will happen within a week after the Mediation meeting. Do not let your lawyer or hers, set up Mediation other than court appointed. The lawyers will resist that path because it is the short cut to divorce. Remember, the judge has to abide by the Divorce Laws in your state, so the worst in most cases, is a loss of 50% of your assets. I have lived in California and Texas…if you must divorce..make sure it is not in California…
Just1X:
“It’s very rare that one side owns the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.”
Yes. Absolutely, the benefit of the doubt was given, without being earned. However I’m actually kind of impressed with Laura. Like many of the men here, she’s hurting, she’s defensive and she’s lashing out, but I think she’s trying to listen.
“If I had the time, I would go back and re-read all my post and analyze my writings and see if I feel I’m trying to be the “victim”
That’s a reasonable statement, the sort rarely made by a woman who’s disgusted with the male gender at large. Not very many angry women come here and acknowledge that they might possibly be mistaken….
@ Donald Drew
My sister is a mediator, having recently earned a masters in conflict theory/resolution. Her law firm doesn’t specialize in divorce, but of course it handles a few. Mediation appears to be a relatively safe alternative to the ‘whoever has the best lawyer, gets everything’ mentality that has become so pervasive. Shockingly, it actually forces parties to establish rational priorities…
@Suz,
I’m in happy agreement with what you wrote. It’s why I did not dive in and attack her (believe it or not), my aim was to point out that there is a critical audience here. The woe is me line is not going to garner automatic sympathy (from me at the very least).
BTW I think that it is great that there is a large number of female posters here (relatively speaking). Very nice to see. I always knew NAWALT, but it’s still nice to see it proven by considered postings by women.
I was married and divorced in Texas. My assets were tallied, as were his, in the process of division of assets. My personal assets totalled $750.00. His came to almost a quarter million. I received my modest assets, one year of modest alimony and that’s it. In Texas, separate property laws hold up, apparently. (All of his property was inherited.) So…divorce does not always favor the woman and screw the man. I wasn’t after his money, when marrying, or divorcing him.
Good for him, you have no right to his family wealth. I also feel you shouldn’t have received alimony.
Donald Drew:
Are men done with women after divorce? I would be. I’ve been married 15 years, most of it happy. If I ever found myself single, I’d never marry again. The laws and the culture are stacked against men to such an extent that marriage is no longer advantageous. I would not recommend that any unmarried man marry any woman in today’s SMP. Many modern women believe they have no marital obligations. Many modern women believe that marriage exists to enhance their personal happiness and that if they are not happy in their marriages, then husband is to blame.
When you get right down to it, a man gets very little out of marriage other than regular sex. A married man mostly takes on burdens, not reap benefits. Most are more than willing to accept those burdens for the promise of regular sex with a reasonably attractive wife who is submissive and won’t divorce frivolously. Many women feel they aren’t obligated to provide even sex at reasonable intervals. We’re already seeing what happens with men’s sex lives. Some men get sex without marriage. Some men get sex from multiple partners. For those who cannot get sex, a few resort to prostitution. Most would prefer video games and internet porn to marrying or trying to marry.
I’ve seen discussions on this and other blogs about when men initiate divorce and when women do. Here’s some more advice: Most often when a woman initiates divorce, she has been planning her exit for a long time. The telltale sign that a woman is planning to divorce you is her making major improvements in her physical appearance or to her wardrobe. She’s lost a lot of weight, changed her hairstyle, has new lingerie you’ve never seen before. By the time it gets to that point, she’s probably cheating on you. If you see your wife making major improvements, get to the bottom of it — and see a lawyer soon.
By contrast, when a man wants out, he goes to a lawyer and just wants it done as quickly as possible.
Laura: Your attitude suggests that you made a poor choice for a husband; and maybe marriage just wasn’t for you.
Laura, it seems you have trouble comprehending what you read. I never said you were an idiot for sharing your opinions. I said this: “You’re a complete idiot and need to stay away from arguing with anybody if you think your experience is a valid basis to extrapolate across all men and women.”
There is a clear disconnect between what I say, and what you think I said, even though the words are plain on your computer monitor. If you cannot make sense out of what I write, then you should stop trying to argue. You don’t know what’s going on.
@ deti; I believe you have a huge all men choir backing you up. I actually have a lot of male friends, but very few are single. I still enjoy women but not one of my retired over 60 men friends has any interest what so ever. My married friends, most under 60 moan and groan about being married. I play golf with a group of men every year in Pinehurst and only about 3 of us out of 30 is single. Of course after we play we spend time in the Club House (what is golf without libations and reflections / lies on the golf round) and the complaining starts. I have to listen to this for what seems like an eternity, then I am walking to the van and most of these old complainers are on the cell phone professing their love to the wife and how much they miss them…somebody is lying……go figure HAHAHA. I have been with a nice lady for 3 years and she is about 6 years younger. Without her I think I would become lazy and not be as healthy. We do not live together (mutual I think) and marriage is something we agree is not necessary at our age. I try to go to the gym 3 days a week and like clock work, I always get a text from her reminding me not to be a slacker, get to the gym. In contrast, my ex-wife fed me fast food and complained when I went to the gym…just the way it was for me. Hopefully you and your wife make it to Golden Pond…For me, life women seemed to really change when they took Ozzie and Harriett off the air……….Not all of the women on this sight get it….but some do. After 55 who cares what someone thinks, what is important is if you wake up the next day….This blog has been more active than I ever expected it to be…I guess it is a good place to vent….
There are always exceptions to the rules. Women are asses. Men are asses. And then some of us don’t deserve the shit we stepped into. Or, maybe we did and just don’t see it the way our spouses did. No one is perfect. But you know, life isn’t fair.
I happened upon this site accidentally. And then I somehow got drawn into the conversations. And now the nurturer in me, well, it doesn’t matter. You guys have been screwed by women – it’s clear to me. I’ve been screwed by a so-called man (Donald Drew – after 25 years my HUSBAND wanted to FIND himself so I get your story).
Who am I to share my experiences? I’m just one lonely, screwed-up woman. I have no professional training so I am done playing in your sandbox. I was never trying to throw sand in any of your faces. So forgive me if I offended any of you.
Just as not all men are asses, remember, there are some good women out there who aren’t asses either. I wish you all happiness and the strength to move forward with your lives. Meanwhile, your kids didn’t ask to be born so please try and have a relationship with them because my kids are hurting because their daddy decided to….leave us.
May we all move forward (men and women) in a positive direction and may we look back at this someday and realize that this was just a very small part of our lives. Best of luck to all of you…I’m signing off for good….Laura
@lauravdm2011
“after 25 years my HUSBAND wanted to FIND himself so I get your story”
It’s never that one sided …
“It’s never that one sided …”
Ha ha! So true, Rmaxd, but you have to admit, from a newbie’s perspective, it sure seems one-sided – the man’s side! (Yes I know I’ve only been commenting here for a few weeks, but I’ve been reading occasionally for months.) It’s too bad she didn’t stick around long enough to notice that, individual personalities aside, the man’s side isn’t based on a myth.
@Laura – you shouldn’t just paste his name on the internet like that. He’s a jerk but you don’t go around pulling that kind of stuff. I never met a man on any site like this who has actually posted the real name of a woman who screwed him over. It’s just a line that should not be crossed.
You sound much more agreeable in your last post, and I think you failed to see most of us agreed with most of what you said. You only went wrong criticizing human nature, traditional roles and the like just because of your negative experience. If you do read this, then I wish you nothing but the best luck with your life and kids, and hope that you would not blame all kinds of other things besides your ex-husband for what your ex-husband did.
@Bob
Laura didnt paste anyones real name …
@Suz
The point is, if she wants to understand why her husband left her, she needs to realise where she went wrong in the marriage …
Unfortunately for her, this is not a hamster pit stop, no emotional cookies with whipped moxie strudels … no you go girl, get out there & slut it up for a real beta who’ll put up with your crap, bs …
Which is obviously what she’ll eventually do … malls are full of beta slut hunters, using their kids as status objects, to lord over the other childless sluts …
One slutty teen daughter to go, with extra mini skirt & thong, for that new teen slut smell …
hold the shame & judgement & a side order of extra status whoring, just in case an uppity mom gives me dirty looks, at the breakfast section …
Of course this is what happens when we replace men, with consumerism & usurp mens authority in society, women slut it up, with their teen sluts in tow as back up …. push up bra’s & tight ass jeans cocked & ready to fire at all nearby beta’s …
Malls & clubs, used by sluts as weapons of mass Beta destruction …
Malls & their status whoring drive by’s & teen mom crime scenes …
Women like Laura rarely want to address the real issues, what they really want is an emotional cookie, a nawalt emotional cookie, an emotional cookie for their guilt & culpability in the relationship
Instead of the nawalt cookie, they get the truth, they get real food, which after years of snacking on emotional cookies & years of fast food shit tests & fitness testing, they get truth based indigestion
Beta’s are simply fast food joints for quick emotional fixes, instead of facing their real personality toxicity, & bitchiness, they turn to beta’s & their gf’s for quick emotional cookies & support ie gloss over my toxic defects & hideous personality, for a quick you go girl, shine coat & paint …
A quick hamster pit stop, before they find some other beta to screw over
How many toxic driven bitchy fries do you want with that beta togo … ?
These women know its all a facade, but its when the shit hits the fan, when the divorce & all those empty years & std’s add up, they realise how they cant handle a real relationship, theyre simply broken people, toxicity & a std ridden carousel ride, always adds up
That’s when the nawalt & hamster driven its the mans fault, comes out, you cant fix a life of toxicity & a std ridden carousel ridden past, with a beta, no matter how many years, it always comes up
Either the wife walks away, in disgust for the man tolerating her std ridden past, for somebody who wont put up with her crap, hypergamy at its worst
Or the man walks away, from her toxicity & a life of meaningless std ridden carousel past, her actions & bitchiness & shit testing, reminding him of all the bitches who’ve turned on him for being a man
@Rmaxd
Absolutely agreed.
…she prefers the myth.
The myth of her virginal, puritan past yes … puritanism & gaia goddess worship, given a new name & branded as feminism, goddess worship the insidious destroyer of main stream culture, entertainment & tv comedies …
The myth of the new teen slut smell, always enticing to women of all ages, its never sexist, or ageist … the ultimate equal opportunist …
Only in equal to the myth of the nawalt, I bet dalrock loves the smell of a newly minted nawalt reader on his blog … lol
@Rmaxd – Doh! >< thanks for the heads up, lol.
Personal experience: Wife and I married in our mid-20’s. Both college grads, both professionals, upper middle income and life style. Two adult kids considered to be successful. Wife said for the first two years “…how could I be so lucky?” Fast forward to 35 years later: Kids gone and we are retired, We sleep in separate bedrooms, she has openly said she won’t participate in sexual activity. Her justification for remaining married the last 20 years “…it’s no better on the other side”. Seems a far distance from “…how could I be so lucky?” She cheated, I haven’t. Our daughter followed suit and her first marriage ended in divorce.
Guess it’s my turn to say “…how could I be so lucky?”
@do1kc
“She cheated, I haven’t. ”
How do you look at yourself in the mirror? For Christ’s sake either dump her or start cheating. I know how comforting it is to fashion yourself an unbreakable armour of self-pity and hatred, but you are worth so much more than that.
DUMP THE BITCH TODAY.
@Suz
lol Suz I got a bit carried away after your post on myth … dont eat nacho’s & post, leads to inane posts … lol
I’m not sure what to think of this website. I’m not done with men. But, I have had some pretty bad experiences with me. In spite of them, (the bad experiences) I do believe there are good men in the world. I’m just not very good at finding them.
I think the thing that bothers me – and always has – is this notion that women are only here but to serve and support men. I’ve always suspected that most men were convinced of their superiority and felt that women were just another opportunity to conquer and occupy something. When I read some of the comments made, it definitely seems to be true, at least for the ones who are posting here.
I’ve seen the bible referenced here a couple of times as justification for this attitude and as a Christian, that bothers me even more. I can see how people can justify these attitudes with the bible, but I also think they do not understand the scriptures if they believe that a woman’s role is ONLY to support and be subservient to men.
And to the person who said that women are happier in that type of arrangement, they couldn’t be more wrong. Women are happy when they have their emotional needs met. When those needs are not met, they are generally not happy.
Being dismissed and “kept in my place” is not my idea of happiness. Anytime an arrangement degrades and devalues another human being, there is something terribly wrong.
I do not believe that caring for children or a home devalues or degrades women either. It is the lack of honor that men tend to give women in general that devalues and degrades them. When women sense it, (and we do) it sends a painful message that when it penetrates our heart, leaves wounds.
Most men don’t seem to really care about those wounds. That is generally at the bottom of why women leave marriages.
Read the Manipulated Man by Esther Villar. Then come back.
Interesting conversation. I am 59 years old, female, divorced three years after 25 years married. I am the one who chose to leave, youngest child was a freshman in college. Marriage was unfulfilling, stressful, full of conflict. Yet I grew as a person, and I still have fond feelings for me ex. We just couldn’t live together. Although I might like to have a relationship in the future, I am enjoying doing “me” right now. If I have to think about how I look, how much I weigh, what I wear, etc., to attract a man, well I guess I am finished with men! However, it is my hope that someone may come along who will be attracted to the person that I am. I am allowing my hair to gray, yet I take care of my body and mind because I want to continue to be healthy into my old age. I have two great children, many friends, great work. Life is good!
@ do1kc:
There is no way any man should put up for one nanosecond with a wife cheating. She cheats, she’s gone. I don’t care if you’ve been married 1 day or 35 years. Infidelity is the unforgivable sin of marriage. In my opinion it cannot be worked out, cannot be resolved, the damage is irreparable.
I saw somewhere some Italian man in his 90s, married for more than 60 years, found out his wife cheated on him very earily in their marriage. He didn’t find out until he ran across the smoking gun letters that contained the evidence, some 60 years later.
The man filed for divorce. She said she’d never cheated again, she just didn’t tell him. Even if that’s true, it compounds the problem because she not only cheated, she lied, covered it up, and played her husband for a chump.
This elderly man is doing exactly what he should do.
Debra:
” I am 59 years old, female, divorced three years after 25 years married. I am the one who chose to leave, youngest child was a freshman in college. Marriage was unfulfilling, stressful, full of conflict. Yet I grew as a person, and I still have fond feelings for me ex. We just couldn’t live together.”
I am curious about this.
1. Do you believe marriage is to be permanent? Do you believe it is to provide for the man as well as for the woman?
2. Do you believe you will get married again? Have you been on any dates since your divorce? Have you had intimate relations with any men since your divorce? If you don’t want to answer these questions, that’s fine. Part of the reason I ask is because we know the following:
— Many divorced women tend to believe their dating lives will be an endless party and parade of Sam Elliott/Sam Neill lookalikes waiting for them. The reality is NOTHING like this, however. Many divorced women don’t have great dating lives and never marry again. And for those who do remarry, the divorce rate is even higher than that for first marraiges.
— divorced women tend to have fewer friends, less money, fewer social contacts, and more financial problems.
— divorced women have more health problems than married women.
2. You say your marriage was unfulfilling, stressful and full of conflict. That suggests basic incompatibility. Are you saying you could not figure out your incompatibility before 25 years, two children and a marriage elapsed?
3. You say your marriage was unfulfilling, stressful and full of conflict. Yet almost in the same breath you say you “still have fond feelings for [your] ex.” If you liked him and you still like him, and made two kids with him, and used his money and labor, and lived with him, and could tough all that out for 25 years, why could you not stay married to him? Do you not know how to relieve stress or resolve conflict?
4. The timing is quite curious. You left when your child was a freshman in college. Why did you wait until your youngest was out of the house? Why not before?
5. “We just couldn’t live together.” Why not? You were apparently able to do it for 25 years (with two kids, using his money and his labor). What changed suddenly after 25 years when your youngest was out of the house and in college? How is it that you abruptly determined life had become unbearable after you were alone with him, and after using his money, his time and his labor to get your kids to adulthood?
These are all good questions you’re asking, deti. I think Debra should seriously contemplate the answer to these questions. It’s a major reason why I think couples do themselves a huge disservice when they allow their marriages to be come child-centered. One quibble, however. You asked:
Unless I missed something, they were his kids, too.
Elspeth:
Yes you’re right. Their kids. I guess I meant the plural “your”.
Debra:
“Marriage was unfulfilling, stressful, full of conflict. Yet I grew as a person”
I always get suspicious when married women talk about their need to “grow” as a person, or seek personal “growth”. I also get suspicious when I hear divorced women talk about how marriage or divorce produced “growth” or some other sort of vague personal development. .
Usually when a woman in a relationship with a man talks about needing to “grow”, she means one of the following:
1. “I need new and exciting experiences that are just for me, not for us”
2. “I’m bored with/not attracted to/not haaaaappy with my man/BF/husband and I want a new one”
3. “I got married too early/too late/to the wrong man, I regret my choices, and I’m looking for a way out”
Debra, how did you “grow” as a person in an environment you say was marked by lack of fulfillment, stress and constant conflict? What did that “growth” entail? Did you choose to involve your husband in your “growth”? Or did you purposely exclude him from your “growth”? Did you embrace personal “growth” at the expense of marital “growth”? Did you consider the effect your “growth” would have on your marriage?
@TFH……given my last post and the points that I put forth, I just wonder if the irony in this statement is visible to you?
“Monique, you have no idea how women think. And no, being a woman does not mean you know how women think – quite the opposite in fact.”
Godspeed in your journey to marital and legal justice.
Monique
He’s right Monique. Ever heard the phrase, “can’t see the forest for the trees?” You may know WHAT you think, but you have no idea HOW you think.
Debra wouldn’t have made it to 59 had men not made the world safe for women to breed without risk of death/illness/incapacity. And what society even has use for an infertile female beyond occasional grandchild minding? Oh the delusions of the female mind, how much tax would we save if we removed the props of these selfish ideals?
@Monique
In your post all you essentially did was to blame men, read back your post & look at how many times you blame men
Theres nothing ironic in TFH’s comment, his points are valid
All you’ve done is point the finger at men, wheres your finger pointing at women, & your role in your husband walking away from you in dissatisfaction?
TFH points out you dont know why women go wrong in a relationship, as he correctly points out, because you dont know where you went wrong in your relationship
Women literally blame men, essentially if they dont know why their relationship or marriages dont work
Women also blame men as a last resort, if they dont know how women work & function
You’re blaming men, & you’re husband out of desperation & not knowing how you function as a woman
A man doesnt walk away from a 25 year old relationship, unless the woman plays a large role in his walking away
It takes two to reason, in a relationship
Debra might get an eye opener from reading about how middle-aged divorcees really live.
planktonlife.wordpress.com/
A divorced woman living in Great Britain writes this blog. It’s called “The Plankton: Life at the Bottom of the Sexual Food Chain”.
Plankton really wants a man, but can’t seem to find one to her liking. She routinely writes about what she claims to be an absolute lack of any good, decent, attractive men for her to date or have sex with.
I’m posting this and holding up Plankton as an example because believe she illustrates the facts on the ground for a middle aged divorced woman in today’s Western SMP.
Deti, you are being unfair.
Don’t worry ma’am. You will find your secret multimillionaire hunky handyman soon enough.
@Monique
Excellent comment by suz you might want to consider
“Laura, I believe you weren’t trying to bash men. The problem is that like 99% of Western women, you have never learned NOT to bash men. From the “boys are so dumb” days of childhood, we have been taught to bash men, subtlely and blatantly. Every negative thought you’ve ever had about men, legitimate or not, has been reinforced by society. This is a safe world in which to despise men.”
Speaking with a married friend last night (22/1/12) he reckons his wife had had enough of sex when they were both about 40.
I think it all depends on the individual man, some men are women magnets till the end.
As a social worker, counselor, and child of the 60’s, I have concluded that today’s “stand-up guy” doesn’t stand a chance. If he completes his education, marries, has kids, and works 80 hours a week to provide an upper middle-class life style for his family, he is doomed. The wife eventually sees their existence as mediocre and lobbies him for a bigger house, posher neighborhood, and more accessories to her liking. So, he must find a second job or a higher paying, more stressful promotion. The wife soon to takes a separate bedroom, because he drinks too much and is always grumpy. Should something collapse within this house of cards, she will damn him for being an alcoholic, poor provider, and insensitive to her needs. Next stop is the divorce decree, which gives her the house, child custody, three cars, the boat, and beach house. He gets the house payments, boat insurance, car insurance, and alimony payments of $4500 a month. Oh yes, he is allowed to have the kids (now teens) stay at his small, ugly little apartment twice a month, but they are repulsed by the idea.Lastly, the ex replaces her former pawn with a much younger model (Fabio), having major tattoos, piercings at every orifice, and the bedside manner she never discovered with her former husband. Oh yes, Fabio hasn’t held a job for the last five years, as he’s ” holding out for a management position.” He’s supposed to be making child support payments for three kids he has with two other women, but has assured them he will meet the obligations once hired. Fabio is a man of his word…obviously!
So mama, don’t let your babies grow up to be…stand up people.
I dont see the relationship of uninterested women to men. Following my fathers dating career from his late 50’s to 80’s he has had no problem attracting women. I think this has a lot to do with the dwendling population of males especially after the age of 60. He has about 8 females to one man in his age group and now has a younger sugar mama who pays for everything to include travel around the world. For those men who live longer it only gets better.
Wow so much hatred between the sexes.
I was looking for something off the internet to help explain my sudden lack of attraction for a man in my life anymore. I am 45 still menstruating with 3 children all doing well and I working full time.
Since my last relationship ended I must confess that emotionally I feel whole and happy now & without hurting anyone (if that is possible on here) find watching how my exs manipulate the women in their lives both amusing from a distance and crummy.
Part of me thinks I should feel sad and keep looking, but its like I see clearly now & know as long as my children are happy & safe in this world I have done my best & thus feel content.
Maybe I will change my mind, but at the moment it does not bother me.
Interesting comments but being Male, 52 yo and single. I find that with the cultural changes and women’s atitudes women just dont need men anymore. I dated constantly (women between 45 and 52) and am in a relationship now. Considering the age group of the women I dated you would think they have a “back in the day” mentallity regarding relationships and being in one would be what they desire. But what I have found and have been TOLD (by them) is that women dont need men, they want the companionship but really have no need for men! Even though most of the women I have gone out with were in financial nightmares due to poor paying jobs, etc and you would think they would love a good man that would complete them emotionally but also contribute to the financial needs (not that this is a valid reason to trap a man but I mention it as a relationship is supposed to complement and boost each other). But thats not the case! Women would rather loose a good, loving, giving, committed man in order to keep her independance and not have to compromise in the relationship and make the man feel wanted and appreciated. In fact, I realize that the atitude from women now is, “either you fit into my schedule and tend to my needs or move on!” My opinion
Have to agree, women seem to become apathetic toward their men, after 50 or so. Reminds me of my four fishing rods hanging up in the garage. Once a year round angler, I spent many hours on rivers, ocean, lakes, you name it. Each rod was for a different type of fishing or prey, and I prided myself on their quality and dependability. Now, they gather dust. Two joint replacements and open heart surgery have taken away the thrill of wading into a chilling stream or sitting in a cold boat for eight hours. For 30 years, fishing was my spiritual belief and the primary connector with my son. Soon the rods will be displayed at our annual spring garage sale…sad.
I think my wife feels the same about me: once thrilling and amazing flexibility,my stout rod was always dependable. Now, occasional glances spell it out: she would rather have a colonoscopy than consider sensuous activity. Funny, she once felt the same way about accompanying me on any fishing treks. I am convinced nothing I could do would thrill her: not a 3 carat diamond ring, not a new car, not even a European vacation…only if I stayed home. In all honesty, she has managed to convince me she is no longer sexually attractive, after 35 years of marriage.
Perhaps I’ll figure out a way to bring back the excitement of those old rods, after all.
Fish off of a new pier my friend. Oh what exotics you may catch!
It’s a shame because I am old school looking for a life long relationship but I can’t seem to find it. Finding women is not an issue but finding one that’s wants to treat me and be with me (and I’m not talking sexually) like I want to be with them is the hard part. Don’t they say they want it but it’s seems as long as I integrate myself into thier life every thing is fine but ask them to show me the same and that is when the issues and disagreement start. Are Thier any women out there that want a two way relationship????
Gerald the problem is your dating women too old for you
Why are you dating 45-50 yr old women past their menopause?
An older woman, while easy to hook up, is alot more critical if you dont have alpha characteristics, as they dont have the drive of a young hungry carousel riding slut …
In short dont date older women, theyre off the shelf for good reason, theyre past their sell by date for men, especially older men
Also you need to leverage your assets & father figure traits, for maximum hypergamy, youre ideal for younger chicks
Stop chasing older chicks, they simply dont have the sex drive to appreciate a man, complete waste of time
Let them hit the wall, they obviously dont need a man by now
@Wendy what are you referring to as hate between the sexes? Any specific comments?
I think all you “Old Fauds” need to look at your self and see why older women don’t want you!
You have to rely on Viagra…to have sex, you complain too much, you’re too bossy, you don’t keep your self up…, you have a pot belly and bald head and most of all you’re boring….
Older women are looking good and dating younger men…they don’t WANT YOU!
Older women have active sex lives…..Repeat they don’t want “old fauds” with polyester pants on!
Ha ha Rmaxd
You tease and obviously love the contradictory nature of fueling the fires between male and female egos.
I have two daughters and a son at University whom I love and respect equally.
Calling women or men bad names is just silly and a reflection on your thought processes.
@Shellfish789
Spin hamster spin!
Reading through this blog makes me realize that there is a central, universal truth to all of this.
And the truth is, somewhere in the past 20-30 years, we forgot how to have relationships–any relationship, period. And that fact becomes clear in alot of these responses.
While many of the responses really are truthful in their depiction of society now, many of them smack of…why would I want to spend any time with these people at all? Men AND women.
As a guy born in the 60s, and one who from the start has perhaps a stronger-than-average ability to really observe things, I have noticed many things that have changed in society–for the worse. And these changes directly impact relationships.
When I was young, no one used the F word. I never heard my dad say it growing up. Now people say it in public. Women didn’t dress overtly sexual, and then get annoyed when someone notices. Men didn’t call women “bitches”, and women didn’t have bachelorette parties with strippers.
Women didn’t tell dirty jokes at work, and men didn’t sexually share their wives and put the video up on the internet. Women who worked didn’t complain about having to do housework, men chipped in to do the housework and didn’t think it was beneath them. Women didn’t have two kids before 23 and then go on a dating site and show off her tattoos. Men didn’t go to the same dating sites and show off their penises.
When you went to the movies, Doris Day was funny and romantic. Now romantic comedies feature women with cum in their hair and women crapping in the street. Hilarious.
We have become a crass, hurtful, using, self-centered, classless, raunchy society.
And we wonder why it’s so hard to get respect from the others. How does one get respect when they show none? Heck, we don’t even know how to be good friends anymore. Who wants to be friends when we all act this way?
I grew up I think at the sunset of great relationships. I had a childhood of family barbeques, neighborhood block parties, and my parents having people over for dinner parties and board games. When was the last time you heard anyone doing any of these things? Probably years. That’s right, because people have forgotten how to have relationships. We’re always “too busy”. Of course, we’re not too busy to all be on these blogs, are we? It’s always the other sex’s fault. While we men call women bitches, and the women go for the guys with money. Right.
I am not saying the past was perfect, there was cheating, and jealousy and miserable marriages since the beginning. But we have lost something precious, and we did it buy choice. We did it on our own free will.
Women wanted to be treated exactly like men. Men wanted women to be just as open and crass as men. We all wanted to get debauched together.
Careful what you wish for, you might just have to live with it for the rest of your life.
@Wendy
Quick 1on1 sex ed just for you wendy …
A mans penis & a womans vagina are not equal
A mans penis is a one way street, while a vagina has multiple points of entry … rear entry a viable alternative to loss of elasticity
Remember 2nd hand vaginas may cause drowsiness & boredom from lack of friction …
Also vagina must be stamped with a use by date, or suffer sandpaper burns from shagging 50 yr old pensioner sluts …
Give 50 yr old pensioners hip replacements not shags …
I suggest you learn the highway code before you spout feminist drivel …
For further lessons contact your local pimp, erm I mean bf … same difference right? Use foreign blunt object if pimp not available
Usage of a beta male voids warranty …
i whole heartily agree with your summation. Add to that today’s society of social networks, dating sites and a whole panorama of ways to avoid inter personal contact with others. We not longer talk to each other, we text, email, and cell call but the art of trying to get to know another individual face to face has been lost. we depend that the person putting a profile on the internet is being honest and that he truly realizes and knows WHO he is. Most of the time its our own personal opinion of ourselves not the true reality of what it is. When we do make a connection we realize that what that person told us about themselves and what they posted as a profile was their expectations and not honest depiction. I believe that now a days we all have unrealistic expectations and even when the expectations are reasonable we expect but don’t want to give the same. There are no relationships now a days! There are too many people who give themselves to others freely without seeing who the other person is. Divorce is too easy an option. The general consensus is try it, if it doesn’t work you can just bail and there will be someone else to try with. Then low and behold we find ourselves in our later years alone and depressed and probably wondering why we did not try harder with some of our relationships. Then there are those of us older individuals that try to believe and convince ourselves that we are emotionally satisfied with just having friends, family and acquaintances. People these relationships are great but emotionally satisfying? I say NO! Where is that one person who lies next to you at night, wakes up with you in the morning? That person who you can bear your heart and soul too. Who will be there by your site fighting through life’s struggles, who will give you their opinion taking into consideration your best interest, not theirs and who’s goals and dreams are to see the two of you prosper and to take from the life the best it has to offer together. Its a sad situation. Unfortunately people have become selfish, self centered and have their own agendas at hand. This society has gotten to a point where we do not care about each other. Yes there are those that do not fit this scenario but I am stating this as a whole as a society, All the technological advances are great and hopefully for the betterment of the people as a whole but at what cost. The loss of interpersonal relationships, compassion, and love and putting the other person before our own selfish interests? Google, Bing the internet and note the number of blogs, sites, and other areas dealing with loneliness, despair, and personal suffering just dealing with the efforts of trying to find a mutually satisfying relationship, Its a sad state of affairs and we should never ever let technology, selfishness, self centeredness take what deep down as loving human beings we really desire. Human contact and love! The Bible teaches to us to take the “I” out of the equation. When we do we allow for the love the exists to enter our lives.
Tom and Gerald:
You both eloquently described the societal ashes we now find ourselves playing in, but recognizing a problem exists is only the first steps. I think it would help both of you to think about the causes of the social decay, and what can be done in response. Recognizing a problem exists only leads you to despair, it is recognizing the causes, and creating new behaviours in response to that, that growth will begin.
ybm, thank you for your comment. your right and I think that I and Tom have singled out some of the issues that have lead to this decay. Unfortunately, as a society and as has been stated in the past with any issues regarding societal affairs recognizing the problems are the first step. But as a solution? The most we can hope for is for comments and blogs like this to get out to the mainstream. How can this help? Maybe by reading it will lead to change in the thoughts and actions of others. The problem I see is that unless you happen to trip over this site you will not see the comments. To work to reverse this well it can only occur on an individual to individual basis and realistically I dont see this happening. We are too overwhelmed with, If I take my personal interests out of the picture others will take advantage of me! I can only do, i believe what I can do. And that is to live by what I wrote. I try to love on people, I try to see things from the others point of view. Remember the old adage, you don’t know what the other person i going through until you walk in his shoes? I am proud to be a Christian and the Bible teaches bringing love, kindness, understanding and forgiveness to all. To approach others when you know you have wronged them. And even though this book has been around for ages its general message has not taken hold of society. When I first wrote on this site I stated the issues i was having with my relationship and other relationships I have had. And I am a giving and loving individual but in the end it was the other persons selfishness the ended the relationships. Yes i walked away taken advantage of, broken and hurt but when those normal feelings subsided I was left feeling that MY conscious was untouched because I gave everything I could and did my best without completely surrendering my soul and beliefs.
If a man in his 40’s or 50’s wants a woman in the same age bracket, something is definitely wrong with him. Most men with something going for them want younger women. Younger women are more appealing. An older woman? If a man is looking at the older women, chances are he does not have a job or has a minimal paying job or just cannot attract a better woman.
i am a straight man in my late fifties and had been married before. it is very hard now for me to meet a good woman today. i see the way they act and dress now, which does not say much. i have noticed that most of them now, even at my age are playing hard to get. i try to avoid going to the clubs, because meeting a good woman there is very hard. i am a serious, down to earth man that does not play games. i even go to the book stores, thinking that it would be much more easier meeting a woman today, but it is not. they are at least thirty years younger than me. i do meet the ones that are very nasty. i will try to start a conversation with the one that i would like to talk to, but they will walk away from me and tell me to leave them alone. this makes me feel bad. i just want to meet a good woman, and i wish that i was thirty years younger again. years ago, times were different and meeting women certainly was a lot easier than now. now there are many women today that are going for their own sex, and i feel that it makes it that much harder as well. so where can a man like me go to meet a good woman now?
@absolutely right
You need to learn game …
Todays women have unlimited access to cads & players & alphas
You now have to compete for women, who are literally banging cads & players 24 hours a day
By picking up the traits of cads & players, you have a fighting chance
Read up on Chateau Heartiste, on body language
My guess is judging from your post, your too polite & not enough cad like in your body language
The key to meeting women is assertiveness & confidence, women expect tons of masculinity & confidence, from men they dont know
The basics for meeting chicks is eye contact first, then hold eye contact, if she responds well, then move in
Also the major mistake your making is, youre not putting her down a few notches
If you dont put down a woman, especially todays women, they will walkaway
Display dominance & they will flock to you … its a different ball game with feminist women
CAN THERE BE SOME KIND OF FILTERING ON THIS SITE FOR OBVIOUSLY MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE SUCH AS RMAXD WRITING OBSCENE AND SICK COMMENTS.
I AM SORRY THAT I MISS JUDGED YOU RMAXD AS JUST A WINED UP MERCHANT AS YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A VERY DISTURBED PERSON AND I WILL NO LONGER INDULGE WITH THIS SITE.
Rmaxd, you’ve put her over the edge. A job well done!
Thank the Lord. Also, caps be bad, yo! Anyway, if there was going to be a filter of some kind on this blog, I would hope it would be the filtering of the constant whining and nagging from old hags such as yourself.
Door’s that way, toodles.
Looks like this blog has taken an ugly turn since I checked in last. The theme of this blog has left the building and turned in to a lot of personal assaults. I have read the post from where I Iast visited this site. The one that sticks out is “absolutely right”. Dude, grow some balls and get a plan. Have no idea what your background is or level of financial security you have, but with your poor me attitude, I can understand why you are branded with a big L (loser) on your forehead. Sounds like your ex-wife was a little tired of your whining and took a flyer. As you stumble around, you will eventually meet an old woman that will reel you in and with just a pat on your little head, she will easily dominate and abuse you. Just remember these numbers. 2nd Marriages have 64% failure rate, and 3rd marriages have an 82% failure rate. Does not matter if you are chasing younger women ( the preferred road ) or an older woman ( why ), to have success, you need to be financially set and physically fit. Women want action, not taking care of a couch muffin suffering from a lack of self confidence. Go by the old mantra, ” when does a 50 year old woman look her best; when you turn 70″. The game between the sexes is going full steam ahead. It is a personal and individual game and everyne has to approach the game…”with some game”. Look, the old fat useless women and men have given up. Just a handful of those over 55 really want to play. This group still works out and has their financial and physical ducks in a row. Those with the most to lose are not only cautious, but demand more (picky) substance from a relationship. The singles over 50 group is huge and growing by the hour….have some fun!! Putting a lot of expectations into a relationship or even a date, is ridiculous for us older players……again, have some fun!! It is OK to drop some coin on an older woman if she looks great and has preserved herself well. Give her a reward fo all of that gym time and plastics work….but keep that left eye open for a younger woman 🙂 Both sexes would prefer younger, the question is, how much are you willing to pay..Do not let the younger crowd abuse you too much…but a good sip of water never hurts now and then.
@Donald
Preserve is the correct word, add some embalming fluid & your almost there …
@Feminist Hater
Wendys obviously unfamiliar with my posting history … I actually toned down my post … good deeds never go unpunished … my orignal post had something about cobwebs & bats flying out of post menopausal women …
Dons cape … saves men from dating sexless 50 year old pensioners, when they should be dating 20 year olds …
Seriously guys, 20 year old women love 40+ year old men, go bag yourself some hot chicks, instead of an aging egyptian mummy with a bus pass …
Donald, get off your high freaking horse. You start off your screed by commenting about how this blog has turned into personal assaults. You follow that immediately by calling the previous poster a loser. Isn’t that nice. Followed by remarks about “fat useless women”. I’ll bet a dollar to a dog turd that you have a gut, are bald and dress in Sansabelt polyesters, but never mind.
Laughingly, you then you go on to say “It is OK to drop some coin on an older woman if she looks great and has preserved herself well.” Wow, look at you. I bet you have the women lined up to take advantage of a few of your precious coins tossed their way, kind of like barking seals.
I’ll be clear. I can’t stand overt feminism and all the games out there. But YOU sir, are exactly the kind of DICK that women complain about. You’re exactly the kind of putz that has no idea what a relationship is about, and do nothing but burn out otherwise decent women out there. Here’s a newsflash. We don’t need more men like you, or your useless advice, we need quite a lot less.
I was really hoping that your irony-filled blather was a Dennis Miller-level of satire, but no, you’re just pretty much an ass. Stay single my friend, and go have another drink.
to donald drew, or whoever the hell you are. do you know where you are today? wake up, women have changed today. they are really messed up today, unlike years ago when they had class and were a lot smarter. a good forty to fifty years ago, they had a good head on their shoulders, and did not play games like the ones that are out there now. their parents raised them a lot better, compare how they are raised now. it was so much easier meeting women back then. today, times have changed and sadly to say so have the women. i certainly agree what the other guy said. years ago, our parents and grandparents were very lucky to have met each other and stay married for so long. but not today. there are so many money hungry women out there that just take advantage of men that have money. it is a joke when i go to these clubs on the weekends, and see men that are thirty years older with the young women that they are with. they are just waiting for the guy to pass away, and get whatever money that was left in the will that he made for them to have. very sad.
@Tom, gee you make me feel so small..NOT. Referring to “never wrong”, yep, dating 30 years ago was different. You thought about women that would make good mothers / parents. Now 40 years ago, you had to dodge the drug using hippies, but plently of well healed women could be found. But like you said, it is different now. Last time I checked, nothing really goes backwards. Men are living a lot longer and the desire to have a mate will probably follow you to the grave. I also get and understand your belief that women are “money hungry”, but so what. Wives can be that way to. Now a wife might be waiting for her old dude to pass away, but those old guys with young women do not work for the sanitation department. They both know what they are doing. I have faith that both old guys and young women know very well what they want and who they are. So really, you just can not compare the past with today, be it relationships or business. Remember when a hand shake was good enough to close the deal. Your road for finding a woman that can meet expectations from the past will be a long road. Just go with the flow and enjoy what comes your way. Women can’t get your money if you don’t open your wallet.
Tom, I do have more interested women than I can deal with. However, I have been with a nice lady 10 years younger for about 3 years. We do not live together as that creates a whole new set of rules. Your words are really ridiculous as you do not know me and I do not know you. I do know that I have been very successful and traveled the world with my business until I retired. My wife and I divorced after 25 years and she left and gave me two daughters to raise. I raised then and educated them; they are doing great. We are very close and that is the reward for patience. Unfortunately, I am neither fat or bald. I am a health nut actually and financially…you would never understand. I am more like Johnny Carson than Denis Miller. I can draw a line for both of us. I assume no one really cares what someone writes on here so really, what is your point. I just looked out the window and the sun is still shining, so I guess we did not change a thing…….
I at least personally disagree with your assumption. I choose to start my current relationship with a woman closer to my age because I was tired of dating women in their 40’s who were at that point trying to relieve Thier youth by hanging with girlfriends and clubbing. I am beyond that. And I work and have close to a 6 figure income. So I am not looking for a women in her 50’s to take care of me. I was looking for someone who was secure in her self and done with either trying to relive her youth or the youth some other man stole frok her or a women recently divorced trying to get another sucker to provide her with an income. Plus I found that women in their 40’s were still carrying the baggage from previous relationships plus still had young kids tied to thier skirts and were ready to bail if things got a little rough. So at least I don’t fit you idea of why a man in his 50’s would date a woman his same age
@Gerald
Erm, the only way to guarantee a woman, is to date women BEFORE they get baggage … in their 20s have NO baggage …
All women in their 50s have baggage & over-head compartments & junk in the trunk … then theres the wrinkles … & cellulite & dodgy taste in zimmer frames …
So hows post menopausal sex gerald? … lol
Rmaxd, I hope you are just joking. If not you must be living in the Appalachin mountains with a bunch of inbreed toothless women. Women in my area, in the same age range as myself are beautiful and sexual and give a 20 yr old a run for their money. If there is a difference in sex drive as you suggest I really have not noticed. Maybe its because the women I have been with work out, take care of themselves and of course are LATIN, as I am also. The woman I am with is confident, sexual and has none of the hangups a 20 yr old has. Dont get me wrong I fully understand the attraction of a younger woman (maybe not in her 20’s making it a30 yr age difference). But I do see it. But unless you want to be viewed as a Perv, have someone with you soley for your money, and have to deal with them blowing out your car speakers because their music preference is Doggie Doo Doo or whatever the music? artists they listen to are, a younger woman also brings their own type of baggage. Not to mention a woman that age still wants to have kids and hoping their is not an OPPS in the picture you will be stuck either raising another child later in life or paying child support out of your social security check. Not an attractive scenerio, HUH. LOL! Not to mention having to overhear her tell her friends about how your nuts hang a foot off the floor! but she loves you cause you take care of her financially. Yeah what fun. Now lets say I was in it just for the sex, yeah a younger woman I guess would be satisfying, but for that I hire an escort and dont have to deal with the dinner, club, and personality and atitude of that younger woman, and its a look cheaper too. So stay with your 20 yr old, Hugh Hefner and I hope you dont blow a hip trying to keep up with your woman on the dance floor.
lolSo 50 yr olds give 20 yr olds a run for their money?
Here we all thought your criteria was lack of baggage?
Look if all you want is a pensioner to grow old with, just say so, but to try & say they give 20 yr olds a run for their money, is laughable
A used up vagina, is nothing like a freshly minted not quite yet pounded by the carousel, slut
Also youre not banging chicks for their taste in music, or their trivia knowledge
Social norms are meant to be broken, plus your confident 50 yr olds been more times round the carousel, then a check out coveyancy … I wonder what your friends have to say about your old age girlfriends, whore like past? …
Just be aware of the options available to you & avoid selling yourself short
You dont have to be hugh hefner, to enjoy a fresh slut, plus in todays feminist world, you dont have to pay for the women
Youve paid your dues, youve made your money, now go get what you deserve, a hot piece of ass … youll pay out more in hip replacement & dentures for your old age granny, then a younger & hotter chick
Plus theres that funky dettol smell, you have to wake upto each morning, all old ppl emit …
I call it old people fumes …
Haliarious! But please take the time to re-read my reply to you. If I was just purely interested in banging (as you state) I would agree with your suggestion of a younger chick (again as you label them) without any commitment or consideration, as apparently you have for them. But since I’m not 16 yrs old and immature My mind does work that way. I truly hope you are just joking and trying to add fuel to the fire! Lol
PS: My posts have never been about trying to avoid baggage. If you think there is anyone out there with their own issues forget it. The title of this blog was are women done with men after age 55. That to me sounds like a relationship question not a banging one as you have turned the focus too. But thank God for free will and individual choices. I do thank you for a couple of chuckles from reading your post but really I do hope you have a little more substance to your thought process then what you have shown.
Here’s to all the ladies who
turned 55, and finally left the bastards!
Theres nothing immature with having a relationship with a hot, young, tight, not quite yet perforated piece of ass
What makes you think a 50 yr old zimmer frame, teeth deprived granny is more mature then a 20 yr old?
Have you ever spoken to a woman? Their all about as mature as Britney Spears bodyfat & cellulite
So not only are you dating a conveyor belt ridden, moth eaten, worn out vagina, but you also have all the immaturity & batshittery of a regular woman
& then theres all the crap from post-menopause to deal with, why the hell would a man put himself through that sort of living hell ?
A hot chick has none of the post-menopausal problems, plus she has no medical problems, you obviously have to fork out for, as most women hate hate paying for anything, except their gina tingles … if youre lucky …
Also a hot young chick, hasnt quite yet turned into a raging constantly pmsd entitled hag
Do you seriously want to baby sit a woman, as she slowly looses her looks & her teeth & her saggy boobs?
Do you really want to install an oxygen tent & call a heli-vac, everytime she eats a cupcake?
Seriously a decayed ass requires more upkeep, in construction work & labour then a hot chick, with a fetish for older gents …
Is there no end to your depravity, Gerald? You perv, leave those grannies alone, & go grope some fresh hot chick who appreciates a depraved wealthier & well travelled gent, instead of having to shop for denture cream & hip replacement poly fila …
Having to construct scaffolding just to prop up her hip replacement, before you even have sex, is bad for your erection …
Also theres the slipped disc & cracked hernia everytime she gives head, do you really want to wait 30 minutes in E.R, before getting head?
The construct costs & upkeep in hip replacement poly fila, bankrupts most wealthier old gentleman
Forewarned gents, stick to younger hotter tighter chicks, & enjoy the fruits of your labour, a post menopausal woman in a decrepit state only deprives you of what you need … hot chicks with daddy issues …
Ever wondered what a completely satisfied chick, who never shit tests, or acts batshit looks like? Date a chick twenty years younger then you & find out …
Wealthier gents, the only solution to a womans hypergamy, you deserve it …
@Katie
You go girl … now go feed your cats …
I am a 65 year old woman who has taken very good care of myself, I am as sensual as I have ever been. I love my husband and I have also been having lengthy conversations with my first love from many years ago. I still get flirted with when out in public, it doesn’t end ladies unless you let it. I think most women after 55 lose confidence in their selves and are just too afraid of rejection to venture out or to continue to be sexy. What I do know is; men aren’t half as picky as women think they are.
Ma’am who are you trying to convince? Us? or yourself?
I can second Judy’s message. I am in her age group and can concur that slender, well-preserved women are treasured by men their own age and older. I can also tell you that they are the minority, maybe 10-15% of the women that age. The other 85-90% are not worth the time or effort, and a day fishing is a day better spent in the minds of most men than a day spent in their company.
In other words, the sexual landscape for women after 55 resembles that for men before 25. No wonder it looks so awful to them.
Treasured sure. But not treasured to the extend that even an average 18 year old is treasured. Time destroys women above all other things, the unavoidable, grim, march to irrelevance is something even the 10-15% of women must endure. Men older or the same age might prefer them purely from a peer-preference standpoint. But only the most naive of fools doesn’t believe a woman’s greatest treasure, and most fleeting one, is her looks. Unfortunately for women, men do not have this problem. A man’s die is recast over and over again over the course of his life by events. A woman’s die is cast the moment she is conceived.
I guess you’ll have to wait to see what I’m talking about. L’il Johnny doesn’t clamor as hard as he used to, and after you’ve passed on your genes other things become important.
Charm is a great equalizer for older women. Unfortunately, older American and British women are often abrasive and mannish compared to European, Asian and South American women in the same age group. I have had the pants charmed off me by older foreign women.
But you are right about one thing – looks may not be everything but they are well ahead of whatever is in 2nd place. Women like to claim that men don’t age well either, but the raw truth is that the sexual landscape for both sexes is the mirror image of what it was in the late teens. All but the most hopeless men get more attention than they can handle, whereas all but the top 10-15% of women are effectively invisible.
@Judy
How can you say
“I am as sensual as I have ever been”, coming from a 50+ yr old makes me want to gag …
& then say
“What I do know is; men aren’t half as picky as women think they are.”
So what is it, are you sensual at the age of 55+, or are “men aren’t half as picky as women think they are”
Youre not exactly sensual if the guys you date arent really choosy when it comes to zimmer frame bling …
@Judy
Only a woman would ever state “I am as sensual as I have ever been”, coming from a 50+ yr old makes me want to go eww …
& then in the same sentence say ..
“What I do know is; men aren’t half as picky as women think they are.”.
Hardly a classy lady there … lol
I’m sick of this, I am a 57, 5 ft 7 130 lb body, i swim 1 mile a rayband jog 5 miles a day. I love lingerie and sex and absolutely adore and love my husband of 23 years who has any type of sex he wants or needs and we have amazing sex. and he adores my body. Get over it. If men are just into 20 or 30 year s old its because they have no character and what woman of intellect with sexual would be interested in a ditz who wants a younger chick cant get beyond that. Young women only want older men for your position and money and what you can do for them. It goes both ways, But of course if that is what you seek then you are a shallow creep that no one is interested in, including us old gals with hot bodies who love to fuck a real man.
TFH you startedvyour decline when you openec your mouth. Who are you? Brad Pitt, then I apologize jerk.
and i can post an ass that you cant have loser
“whereas all but the top 10-15% of women are effectively invisible.”
Hah! I turned invisible the day my son was born! (He left 30 pounds behind) Before that I figured men thought my eyes were at chest level; turns out though, being spoken TO, with eye contact, by only a few men, was way better than being ogled by many men. Being young and hot was fun, and it opened a lot of doors to me, but I found I didn’t want to go through most of those doors – there wasn’t much on the other side.
The desirability of doors opening for you when you are young and hot, or old and [relatively] hot depends on the comfort and appointment of the room you are already in.
If you are already in a warm room with a good fire glowing, a bottle of Madeira, a slice of chocolate cake and a good book, you may want to close the door yourself to keep out the draft.
It may be a different story if you are banging away on the doorstep in a thunderstorm it might be a different story.
“I am a 65 year old woman who has taken very good care of myself, I am as sensual as I have ever been. I love my husband
“and I have also been having lengthy conversations with my first love from many years ago.”
Wth … This is pure troll … a 65 year olds first love probably died out in the jurassic era along with his spear throwing, & loin cloth fetish …
@Suz
I find dividing my attention between a womans chest & her ass makes for a more stimulating & intellectually rewarding conversation
Of course depending on how stimulating her ass is …
I have a pet theory, the more stimulating a womans ass & chest, the more stimulating her posts …
Im sure theres an i.q correlation in there somewhere … must test for ass hotness & prose, next time hot chick strikes conversation …
Whos up for forming a Mensa group based on T&A i.q …
@ Judy:
“I am a 65 year old woman who has taken very good care of myself, I am as sensual as I have ever been. I love my husband and I have also been having lengthy conversations with my first love from many years ago.”
(Translation from hamsterese: My body is not what it used to be but I’m still ready to go! I’m a total knockout at 65! Too bad my boring beta husband is worn out from decades of working his fat ass off to get me my Lexus and my second home in Boca. Well, I guess I like him OK. But because I’m so bored, I’m having an emotional affair with an alpha from my young, single days who had sex with me a few times before I got kicked off the carousel and had to settle for a boring beta provider. My long lost alpha is the only one I truly love. He’s the beautiful , misunderstood bad boy whom I could never have for my very own. But I’m about to make up for all that. I’m going for one last ride on the carousel. Might have to settle for the benches, though, what with my lumbago and all. )
“I still get flirted with when out in public, it doesn’t end ladies unless you let it. I think most women after 55 lose confidence in their selves and are just too afraid of rejection to venture out or to continue to be sexy. What I do know is; men aren’t half as picky as women think they are.”
(Consulting hamsterese -to-English dictionary: I’m living it up and on the prowl, and my stupid flaccid beta husband is none the wiser. He has no idea I’m heading out to the carousel and he won’t find out, either. And if he ever does he won’t say shit about it. If he tries to say anything to me about seeing other men, I’ll just leave, divorce his fat ass, take the second home, and live out the rest of my days on half his pension and his 401(k). I’m not afraid of rejection. All you gotta do is show these old Viagra-popping alpha wannabes some saggy breast and they’ll pitch tent right there in their Depends. Believe me, I know.)
[D: Well done!]
@ Judy: Is The Villages truly America’s friendliest hometown?
MuleChewing, ybm:
It’s true that a woman over 55 who is slender, well preserved and has taken care of herself still has a little attractiveness. Certainly such a woman is noticeable, because her appearance puts her head and shoulders above her age peers. But these women are not nearly as physically attractive as they think they are, nor are they as attractive as they were when they were in their late teens and early 20s. There’s a number of celebrity women in their 40s through 60s who look smashing for their age. There are also weight loss success stories — the 50 year old Bowflex Grandmother! The former fattie who lost 60 pounds, now has a ripped midsection and bangs the poolboy! Many women see this and think they can do it too. But the average 50 year old woman has 30 pounds to lose and doesn’t have time to work out two to three hours a day with a personal trainer (preferably a male one so she can bang him if she wants to). She can’t afford or doesn’t want botox injections, liposuction, tummy tucks, implants in her breasts, buttocks, and cheeks, and facelifts. She can’t afford salon hairstyles and cuts at $500 a pop. She cannot afford to eat organic nor has she the time to prepare healthy meals.
So the average woman is looking at an ideal presented by celebrities whose occupation it is to look good. These celebrity women’s faces, bodies and voices are their very livelihoods. Most women cannot attain the appearance of a Lena Horne or a Meryl Streep or a Sandra Bullock or a Helen Mirren. it is simply not possible. Yet we are treated to the literary spectacle of people coming onto this thread and talking about, with absolutely no sense of irony, “79 year old total knockouts” and other such nonsense. (I’m still LOLing about that 79-year-old knockout.)
Deti and other firebreathers –
Please remember that I am entering my 7th decade as I type. I do find about 10%-15% of women my age attractive. This is both a good thing, and a bad thing.
But the point I wanted to make was not that older women can be attractive to older men, but that the percentage of older women, especially older single women, who are attractive to older men, especially scarce single older men, is smaller than the percentage of single women in their 20s and 30s who are attractive to men on their age group. When I was single and 28, I found between 80% and 90% of women in my age group attractive. Now, remember. These women are still my age-mates today, but God! the years have been brutal on most of them.
Indeed, one of the most greatest affronts about growing old is watching what the blazing sun of passing time does to the snows of yesteryear. It iworks the same way with men, I think, but women have always found very few of us beautiful to begin with. The ones they thought were beautiful in the 1970s are still doddering around today, albeit with much younger women. As far as disillusioning a woman about her attractiveness late in life, I think you’d have better luck standing on a hill and commanding the sun not to rise.
Let them be. Like Dalrock and others have said before. They’re through with men their own age. They’re passionately through with men their age. In fact, they are so through with men their age, they have to come on this Jurassic thread to tell us just how through they are with men their age.
The unfortunate side effect the feminist decades is that there are so very, very few charming older women left. A woman can be charming even when the last scrap of physical beauty has flown. Think of Dame Maggie Smith’s portrayal of Countess Violet Crawley in Downton Abbey. I found myself fast forwarding through the tepid love affairs of the two insipid younger daughters to Dame Maggie’s scenes.
Why the phuque can’t women my age aspire to be more like her, and less like the dipshit female rabble at my gym who flirt with me in front of my wife and wear stoopid t-shirts that say “40 is the new 20”. Yeah, right. Wake me up when unemployed is the new six figures.
CS Lewis was right. Women exert every effort to get to the stupidest phase of their life as quickly as they can, and once they arrive, to stay there as long as possible.
@ Leah Whip:
“I’m sick of this, I am a 57, 5 ft 7 130 lb body, i swim 1 mile a rayband jog 5 miles a day. I love lingerie and sex and absolutely adore and love my husband of 23 years who has any type of sex he wants or needs and we have amazing sex. and he adores my body. Get over it.”
Where’s my hamsterese to English universal translator? Oh, there it is. OK:
Translation: 57 is the new 22! I was born hot, I was hot, I am still hot, and I’ll always be hot. I’m that vaguely disturbing out of date cougar holding down a bar stool and checking out the college guys when my hubby’s not looking. I can still scrog like I could when I rode all those pretty horsies on the carousel back in the day. I am in total control of our sex life. My husband gets whatever sex he wants or needs and we have great sex, but only when I feel like it, and only how I want to.
My husband loves how hot I am (when he’s not staying up late. Says he has to stay up late to pay bills and read his books. How come the computer’s virus detector is going nuts all the time? And why is there always a tissue box sitting right by this computer? Honey, get this fixed. I need to check how many of my old college boyfriends liked that Facebook picture of me doing that Duckface pose with Helen and Julie and Trish that was taken at the bar a few weeks ago. Nah, you weren’t there. Nah, you haven’t seen it. And you won’t, either )
“If men are just into 20 or 30 year s old its because they have no character and what woman of intellect with sexual would be interested in a ditz who wants a younger chick cant get beyond that.”
Hamsterlation: Look at me! LOOK AT ME!! I’m still hot! And if you can’t see that, then you’re dumb, and stupid, and a creep, and a loser, and… and… all those other names.
“Young women only want older men for your position and money and what you can do for them. It goes both ways, But of course if that is what you seek then you are a shallow creep that no one is interested in, including us old gals with hot bodies who love to fuck a real man.”
Hamsterlation: Actually, all women only want older men for money and (social) position. We want the younger men for other kinds of positions, wink wink, nudge nudge. You are just a bunch of dirty old men who can’t get laid! You’re all creeps and losers! You need to act your age! And even if you did, you wouldn’t be gettin’ none o’ this (licks thumb, applies it to backside and makes sizzling SSSSSSSSS noise) !! ‘Cause I am hot, hot, HOT!! And by “real man”, I mean one who isn’t broken down and tired from supporting me all these years when my kids and I really needed him.
“TFH you startedvyour decline when you openec your mouth. Who are you? Brad Pitt, then I apologize jerk.”
Hamsterlation: Dammit, I hate it when men come on here and can tell the truth about me without even knowing me! That’s not fair! Unless you look like Brad Pitt, in which case, here’s my number, biatch.
“Mule Chewing Briars: …if you are banging away on the doorstep in a thunderstorm it might be a different story.”
So very very true. Shout-it-from-the-rooftops true. Fortunately for me I started out as an ugly duckling, so I was more bewildered than spoiled by all of my options. I’m grateful I had the luxury of waiting until I was smart enough to make a good choice.
@Leah Whip:
You can read these comments and screech NAWALT all you like, and in many cases, you’d be technically correct. You might have noticed the bias here is distinctly male, but if you think it’s unreasonable then you are absolutely oblivious to the female bias in which you are steeped. Deti knows you better than you know yourself. It’s too bad you already have all the answers because if you didn’t, you could learn something here.
Let me assure you that NAWALT isn’t very convincing when accompanied by a “You men are pigs!” attitude.
@Leah Whip
“TFH you startedvyour decline when you openec your mouth. Who are you? Brad Pitt, then I apologize jerk.”
Leah Whip has a 67 year old hip replacement, denture popping granny like crush on TFH …
TFH I suggest running but you wont get far, she swims a mile a day …
Mule:
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone wax so eloquent and poetic on a woman’s trip toward The Wall.
@Sean:
“I think my wife feels the same about me: once thrilling and amazing flexibility,my stout rod was always dependable. Now, occasional glances spell it out: she would rather have a colonoscopy than consider sensuous activity. Funny, she once felt the same way about accompanying me on any fishing treks. I am convinced nothing I could do would thrill her: not a 3 carat diamond ring, not a new car, not even a European vacation…only if I stayed home. In all honesty, she has managed to convince me she is no longer sexually attractive, after 35 years of marriage.
“Perhaps I’ll figure out a way to bring back the excitement of those old rods, after all.”
SEan, that is too bad that you think your wife feels that way about you, and about herself. Sounds like she doesn’t want sex because she thinks she is not attractive. That is not to say that you have caused this. Sometimes women get this way.
One of two approaches might work: take her to your bedroom and ravish her. Don’t ask. Don’t negotiate. Just do her. If she stops you, wait a couple of days. Then talk to her about it. More drastic measures might be needed.
Deti dispensing with the gaming advice … I thought game was pandering to the woman …
Anyway Sean, or anyone reading, the reason shes gone off sex, apart from her hormones, is basically you need to be alot more hyper-masculine
As a woman gets older, & her hormones begin to deplete with age, & she no longer feels naturally attracted or turned on to your regular male behaviour
This state of hormonal depletion, requres the male to be alot more masculine & sexual then he would have when he was younger, with his wife …
I guess all those posts of me calling deti a mangina paid off … lol
To deti’s credit of course …
My husband hasn’t had sex with me since our wedding night. He just refuses, and he is not interested in anyone else. He has no friends and goes no where, no phone or computer. He’s slept down stairs for over 40 years. Just like a hermit. I think I look good for an older women, but he says we are friends only and there isn’t any love in his life. He hates sex and I think me also. He always told me I was terrible at sex and love making. And he didn’t care what I did with our marriage or who and where I went. I should have left him but I was stupid, I was young and didn’t know better.
I’ve been depressed, hurt, unwanted for so manny years. I have become very distrusting of men.
I only really stay in the same house with him is because of his pension and benefits. Its a horrible way to live and I will die this way.
@Decaf
“I only really stay in the same house with him is because of his pension and benefits. Its a horrible way to live and I will die this way.”
So horrible yet you still take his pension & benefits … the horror …
Decaf, what was his reasoning for marrying then if what you say is true. This world and people’s atitudes are messed up. Here you have a woman who wants something from her husband and he refuses to give anything. Yet she sticks it out to the end. Then you have women who have a good man willing to give everything and they bail at the first hint of trouble or things not going there way. I myself am in a relationship that is only 9 months old and she finds reasons to keep herself busy and shows no sign of wanting to be together. Of course she talks about marriage but why would I commit to her if now she doesn’t even seem to even want to spend time with me? Example I stepped back for a week to thinks things thru and she didn’t even notice that was what I was doing until I told her. Women! Decide what you want
@Gerald
So trouble in paradise gerald? Here we thought she was a sexy, gives 20 year old run for their money, grandmother, gone wild …
“Example I stepped back for a week to thinks things thru and she didn’t even notice that was what I was doing until I told her”
Take the brakes off her zimmer frame & roll her down a hill for old times sake … should do the trick …
I also recommend a spare oxygen tank, a defibrilator & a copy of readers digest to set the mood … just dont light the candles too near that oxygen tank …
Btw Gerald since I hate not seeing you guys live the pensioners gone wild, lifestyle, I suggest you go over to Athol Kays site, & see why your hot ass grandmother is playing hard to get …
We’re not done with men.We’re done with bullshit. My libido is stronger than it was at 40 (I’m 61). Currently jonesing for a man who is probably ten years younger.
Wow…. I’m a 27 year old female and reading this blog just made me sad. There’s so much hate. Is this what I have to look forward to when I get older? I like and respect men. I’d like to spend my life with men my own age with the same life experiences. When I’m in my 50s, I’d like to think there will be men in their 50s who will also like me. I’m not really sure why so many older men here are all about “banging younger, hotter girls”, meanwhile spewing hate and disrespect for their female counterparts. I’ve never been interested in significantly older guys and I don’t know of any women in my age cohort that are. If you older men are holding out to be exclusively with younger women, I think you are wasting precious time. And no one should be criticizing older women for being unattractive physically. I’ve been hit on by my fair share of unattractive older men and I’m not in denial that one day my own looks will fade. Everyone’s looks fade with time – so stop being so critical!
You don’t know ALL women over 55. I’m sure there are women who are fit, fun, and interested in sex. And I’m sure there are women who really want to have functional relationships with you. Please don’t be so angry and bitter. There are wonderful women out there that want you for you and who will love you unconditionally. 🙂 Take pride in yourself as you grow older, you are a better person for it. And you deserve to be with someone who appreciates that. Good luck to you all and pls don’t lose hope!
“We’re done with bullshit.”
Ever so close. “We” may be “done” with men’s bullshit, but we are so. not. done. with our own. Try to look back honestly – maybe you’re capable, maybe not. Aside from criminals and youngsters, 99% of male bullshit is nothing more than ordinary masculinity trying to gain a toehold in a hostile environment.
@Tracey. Wow at last words of reason and logic. I don’t know why Rmax is so bitter and has the attitudes he has maybe it’s from his own life experiences? At him, the issues I may be having having are no indication of her physical attributes. She is a beautiful woman and my own personal opinion is that before I came along she was not in a relationship for a while by her own choice and may be having to adjust to being in one and trying maintain the life and activities she had before I came along. I am not excusing her. I am not bitter but I will agree with remax that it seems that older women have formed thier own lives and find the fact of having to compromise cause now someone wants to be in her life.
“I’m not really sure why so many older men here…”
Tracey, you don’t understand because most of the men you know are still trying to reshape their masculinity into something feminist society doesn’t want to scrape off the bottom of its shoe. They haven’t yet figured out it’s a losing proposition, and many of them are fairly content with it because they haven’t been actively victimized by it, only passively; they can live with the compromise. The negativity and bitterness here disturbs me as well, but I don’t blame it on the men who are negative and bitter. Forums like this one attract men who have been screwed six ways from Sunday, and are sick of being victims. There is really no place else for them to express themselves; the truth about their betrayal is something the rest of us don’t want to hear. Women (ESPECIALLY moral women) don’t want to believe what we’ve done to them and men don’t want to believe they are that vulnerable. There is a very good reason why the manosphere can be such an ugly place – it reflects reality.
@Gerald
The truth isnt negative or bitter, its called the truth for a reason …
Thnx for implying not wanting to bag a pensioner in her prime, makes me negative or bitter … Your 1000 virginal grannies await for you in heaven … complete with a bake sale & kinky crochet …
Gerald, seriously go to Athol Kays site & educate yourself on why the pensions of your dreams, is giving you the cold shoulder …
Her depleted hormones play a part, but its more to do with you not treating her like the jerks & assholes of your youth, 70 years ago in her twilight years … somewhere in the jurassic era …
Hate to break it to you Gerald, but women dont really mature in their old age, when it comes to sex, they still expect you to act like a jerk asshole alpha cassanova …
They just get more desperate, or senile … which ever comes first …
R, You may be right I’m not going to stand here and state that I know it all and I can only speak from my experiences. But I did date a 22 year old when I was in my 40’s and the majority where in the 40 to 45 yr age range. Who know maybe the art if a relationship is just gone and it’s better just to go around banging each other without commitment. How do I get to the other site?
http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/
Very good reading, both of them.
I think women are still interested in men even as they age. Companionship, sharing, etc. Most men today do want a wife who will “take care of them and their children” but also someone who can make good money.. They want it all and they also want her to be 25 when they are 40 no matter their income or attractivenesss.
.
Thnx for the links Suz
@Gerald
Women dont want relationships, not western women anyway, they want thrills & spills & jerks …
Seriously, Gerald if she did pop the marriage question selfishly, youre already most of the way there …
All you have to do is objectify her, slap her ass, grope her & basically be very very lewd … in a classy way of course
You need to dominate her alot more aggressively then you are atm, as your behaviour is clearly not pushing her buttons
You need to challenge her intellectually, by proving how smart you are, ie push her need for beta behaviours
& balance it by being cocky & funny, as well as rough housing her & more ass smacking
Cuddling yes, ass smacking & objectifying & dominating her verbally & physically even more
Calibrate your aggressiveness & dominance till she responds & then take it up a few notches
Remember its not about a relationship, your already in one, you just need to work the work finer points
There are two killer secret weapons you can employ on a none-responsive chick …
Hard sex, bang her alot harder & deeper then you normally would, hell even more then shes ever experienced, & she will turn all clingy & begging for more on a daily basis ..
The other is not to orgasm, or ejaculate, this is a killer move & guaranteed to get her paying more attention to you
Do this from time to time & tell her youre didnt feel like orgasming, or ejaculating …
You might find these links handy if your starting out …
You have to respond to her like this …
http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/01/answering-do-these-pants-make-my-ass.html
& do this ..
http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/12/if-you-want-personal-fuck-toy-you-have.html
Also remember women like it alot rougher then you think … so be as dominant & aggressive as you want, just push her buttons & keep her moist …
A quote from his site …
“The sex life we had together was generally fairly vanilla, but now and then a dash of the spicy stuff made it very, very hot. I discovered that it turns out I like it a lot rougher than I had previously thought. He would occasionally play “masked bad guy” and leap out and “rape” me (all planned out ahead of time).
He would never bruise me or draw blood — it was just the fact of being overwhelmed by his physical strength that was so arousing. One of the most erotic things that he would do was choke me unconscious during sex. Wow, I really do miss that.”
@rmaxed. I appreciate your advice and who knows it may be the solution. If you don’t mind me asking how do you arrive at your conclusions? Are you a therapist, is it experience? Thinking over your advice logically I have thought that you may have some merit in what your suggesting since I have put myself as they say a compromised position with her since I openly have expressed my desire to spend more time with her, maybe giving her the impression that she has the upper hand? Your thoughts
@Rmaxd
I was a bit baffled that you said that was a ‘quote’ from Athol’s website as I know he’s not a fan of choking, partly for medical reasons, being a medical professional himself.
So I googled it and saw it was just a random comment from a random commenter on Athol’s website. Funny you missed out the beginning of the comment, which was the woman’s partner had been a professional dom..and most of his clients had been men.
@Lily
I post pretty fast, without editing, so yea i shouldve added it was a comment
What you also missed out, is that the woman was an ordinary regular woman
All women love extreme domination, ie walshs comments on a guy spitting wine into her mouth, still gives her gina tingles to this day …
My point for that quote, is to drive home the need to be hyper-aggressive & hyper-masculine
Most men dont realise you have to hyper-aggressive with a woman in order to be memorable, we live in the age of hyper-feminism, where women are extremely feminine
We also live in an extreme society with massive amounts of sensory overload, so we require far greater amounts of stimulus in our sex lives, & relationships
Men are simply unprepared for the amount of aggression & dominance they are supposed to be, in a world where the woman are hyper-feminised & theyre senses overloaded from television & emotional porn
Women respond to extreme hyper-masculinity & dominance & asshole behaviour, as theyre not able to respond to normal behaviour
The women in our society are deviant, they are abnormal & theyre behaviour deformed
They are not normal ppl
Women are extremely damaged ppl biologically speaking
Which in turn requires highly aggressive & dominant behaviour to communicate with them …
In my experience, a little alpha goes a long way. Women do need some rough handling occasionally, so they understand that you are not a eunuch. But a wise man knows his own strength. Once you have produced some “shock and awe”, you can be a bit gentler.
In earlier, less feminist times, women used to be in awe of the average man. But with girls being told, foolishly, that they are just as physically and mentally strong as men, they are less easily impressed. A woman’s first taste of alpha must come as a revelation.
We, men and women, are hugely lied to by society and the media. I don’t say that caveman behaviour is the solution – it has obvious risks – but if a woman knows you are at least capable of being tough with her, it will build lasting respect. Men want to be nice to their women, but they have to establish firm ground rules first.
Gerald, women hate needy men. Men who are needy from the start.
The game never stops. I am 56. My wife is 51. She still reacts like a woman.
@Collard, I would not describe myself needy and it definitely wasn’t from the beginning. My desire to spend more time with her was expressed way into the relationship. My question was in wonder if expressing if not just making it so made her think she had the upper hand
Gerald, a very important principle is to make yourself the scarce commodity. Make her come to you. I did a bit of this yesterday. My wife wanted to comment on a radio news item. First, I told her to be quiet until it was over. Then I made sure that she had to come to me to get my attention and tell me what she wanted to say.
This sort of thing can become second nature. You only have to do it sometimes. Women are good at reading status cues.
Remember – she is lucky to have you. Your time is valuable.
@Gerald
Don’t ask, TELL. Women may claim to want to make the decisions, but really they don’t like it. If she has to decide, it is a turn-off for her. So Rmaxd is right that dominance works well, especially if the man can also feel her heart and understand her desires better than she does. She will feel safe with such a man. Yes, it is a paradox.
@Gerald
Ill have to give you a complete answer in the morning its 2am here …
Essentially youre right, you never tell a woman youre interested in the relationship, or tell her you love her first
Youre supposed to lead her into saying those things …
Love is essentially a person making herself fall for you … most of what makes a woman fall in love with you occurs when youre not around … her rationalisation of you makes her fall for you
When you tell a woman you love her & give her gifts, & start indicating interest in the relationship, youre telling her youre going to provide the script for her to fall for you, instead of her rationalising her own reasons for falling for you
Of course then theres the whole youre supposed to lead part
Its pretty easy to make a woman fall in love with you
Most gamers use a mixture of dhv & dlv, & comfort & push pull
I use a concept i came up with called hyper-rationalisation
All you have to do is get her to hyper-rationalise the relationship in her head, make her fall for you in her own head …
Get a woman to hyper-rationalise correctly & she’ll hyper-rationalise the whole relationship before it even starts
Basically you’re getting her to imagine the months of time it takes for her to bond with a person, in a matter of seconds
Which is why acting aloof & arrogant works so well, it forces her to imagine the whole relationship, before it even begins, because of a lack of communication
You also have to get whats known as sub-modalities right, your sub-communication right
Basically control the conversation, & avoid reacting to her
All communication is a reward to a woman, control the conversation, never let her take control of the topic & always win the arguements & fights, leading & domination basically controls how you reward her
Avoiding reacting to a woman & what she says, basically stops her shit testing & prevents her from reacting emotionally, it also cuts off the emotional feedback when she acts irrational
This is key to controlling a womans behaviour, never reward a womans behaviour, unless its sexually & its to serve you
Her servicing you sexually & servicing you is all a reward a woman needs, anymore & you wont be able to control the relationship
Also its important to realise most women dont have the intelligence to rationalise your response to them, all they’ll do is see your pissed off reaction as a reward & get even more crazier …
From time to time you’ll have to put your foot down, & also most importantly you have tell her what you expect of her, when she misbehaves …
Of course you dont have to do all of the above, if you’re alpha, we have game so we can internalise how to be alpha, once you use the above on a woman often enough, it in turn makes you naturally more alpha & successful
It basically turns you into a beast of masculinity, a stallion of dominant behaviour …
A lot of that is basically correct. From a married man’s perspective too. Don’t bicker with a woman. Don’t wheedle. Tell her what you want once. Don’t nag. Nagging is a weak behaviour.
A lot of what women say is just static. There may be a message in there, but it can be very hidden. Men tend to be literal-minded. But it is fatal to assume that what a woman says is literally meant. A lot of it should be ignored. See what she DOES.
“her rationalisation of you makes her fall for you”
We have a winner!
Gerald, remember this always. It will never change, and it’s the same mechanism that makes women fall “out of” love. Women need to be in love. Incorporating the principles of game into your relationship, will make YOU the man she wants to be in love with.
@ LindaJo:
“I think women are still interested in men even as they age. Companionship, sharing, etc. Most men today do want a wife who will “take care of them and their children” but also someone who can make good money.. They want it all and they also want her to be 25 when they are 40 no matter their income or attractiveness.”
I need my hamster translator:
“We women are wonderful and altruistic. We want to be with our men even as they age because we love them so much (actually, we love the money, the status and the security.) “Companionship” means he takes me out for expensive dinners and entertainment. “Sharing” means he shares his pension with me. And if he doesn’t, there’s always a divorce lawyer to make him share and play nice.
“Men are so damn shallow. They just want a woman who will bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan, pump out the babies, and still give a mean BJ at the end of the day (’cause I’m a woooooo— MAN! Enjoli!) I can’t imagine why he thinks women are this way. It couldn’t be because of the constant bombardment of advertising, TV shows, movies, news reports, messages from pastors, instruction from teachers, a full phalanx of federal and state gender anti-discrimination and anti-sex harassment legislation, divorce laws heavily skewed in favor of women, and policies from HR departments telling us that women are exactly like men in every way and that women can have and do it all.
“And men are shallow because they still want to have sex with these chippies when they are forty, fat, follicularly challenged, and finished. Not to mention broke and unemployed. Ewwwww, GROSS! Any man I sex up when I’m older better look like Sam Elliott and spend money like Bill Gates.”
Once again, fellows, pay attention to what a woman does, not what she says. They’ll all tell you ‘I’m so awesomely awesome that men can’t handle my awesomeness’ but that’s right on a level with her 19 year old granddaughter saying she just wants to find a nice guy who’ll treat her well.
An acquaintance of mine lost his wife to cancer recently. To be fair, the guy lives in a seven figure house and pulls major bank, but his wife wasn’t even cold before the casserole crusade started. His new “lady friend” looks like a cross between Andie McDowell and Ségolene Royal .
I don’t blame him one little bit.
Tracy, you are young and idealistic. I presume that you are also pretty. If so, you may find someone who will love you and treat you well, and I hope that if this is the case, you stay with him for life.
But if, like some of us, you are not pretty when you are young, you will be invisible to these men when in your twenties. I mean, really, truly INVISIBLE. They won’t even look at you in a crowded room. If you work with them, they will tell you about their dates with other women without once considering that you might be interested in them. You’re like a piece of furniture. Men old enough to be your father might show some interest. If your experience is like mine was, they will all be cheating on their wives. And it’s better to be single than to be ‘the other woman’.
It doesn’t get better with age. While men in their fifties will routinely date, and marry, women twenty or more years younger than themselves and not be considered odd, a woman in her fifties will be considered a total turn-off by men who are only five or six years younger. Forget the nonsense about ‘cougars’–those women are still young. It’s not hearsay, all of this has happened to me. Most men, including many on this forum, are extremely shallow. Or they really truly hate women. I can’t believe some of the comments here. If you men were less hateful and had less unrealistic demands, you could find wonderful women approximately your own age out there. There are many more good women than there are good men.
It is very, very hard to be so un-pretty in your twenties that you are unattractive to all men. You almost have to work at it. If that is true, I am genuinely sorry for you. I have known some unfortunate girls for whom that was true. They learned to be happy in other ways, though.
By the time you’re fifty, though, it usually boils down to weight and fashion sense. Extra weight sabotages more potentially attractive mature women than any other single factor. That and the fact that by fifty, you have the face you deserve.
Jokecougar:
Asinus is right on this. By and large, a woman in her late teens and her 20s has to work at being unattractive. I can count on one hand the women I have known who really weren’t attractive enough to pull a man. It’s axiomatic that all but the homeliest women can get men for sex any time they want.
I don’t agree that most men are shallow. The fact that a man wants sex with an attractive woman does not mean he is shallow. The fact that men point out unattractive, unsavory female behavior does not mean they hate women. The fact that a man might want a younger woman than himself does not make him a “bad ” man. I don’t agree that that there are many more good women than good men. The fact that a woman acts consistent with her hypergamous nature does not make her “bad” any more than a man wanting sex from an attractive women makes him “bad”.
Detis right, excellent comment by asinus women have to work at being unattractive …
Stay slim, get a decent haircut … wear something slutty & have a decent i.q
Of course the women with an over inflated opinion about themselves get all the guys
@Jokecougar
Presuming youre not trolling, what specifically did you think were hateful or unrealistic towards women?
Is it hateful to say women get old & loose their looks? While a man in shape easily actually looks better & hotter then any 60 year old woman?
Do you hate the truth so much, you have to label it as hate?
Highly intelligent men, who have good jobs, who are not particularly short and not at all ugly, but not particularly handsome, are simply shut out by the young women who by all rational standards would be “in their league” in this society. (that is, if women actually had to pair off and commit when young, they would be choosing the men they are now scorning) Some of them move to the Far East where they are taller and more handsome than most of the men and can find a woman that is moderately attractive and willing to give her youth and beauty to him. Now why should a man want a woman who was giving the best years of her life to bastards who didn’t love her, just because she’s desperate? Nothing will sink in with these creatures, all these things have been repeated million times, but women make the beds they lie in.
Thank God for the welfare state! If it weren’t for big government, fat old broads like you who thought there were too good for a beta in their twenties can now marry a beta “in the abstract” through wealth redistribution without having had to deal with an actual icky beta that whole time. Now you old shrews can draw social security, medicare and other assorted free cheese from Uncle Sam at the expense of productive people (who happen to be mostly men).
But of course, greenlander! Somebody has to feed us while we indulge our “finer feelings.”
@jokecougar
yeah, the apex fallacy works on women too, cry me a river. You only saw the attractive men, who weren’t interested in you. Bet there were men you didn’t fancy, of a similar SMP value to you, that you ignored.
Women love to dish it out when they have the power, but boy do they bitch when they get a taste back. Trouble is, things get worse with age, and quicker for women than it does for men
I keep saying it, but nobody believes me:
The Sexual Market Place for people after 45 is the mirror image of what it was at 25. At 60, it is the mirror image of what it is at 15. Like 15 year old boys, the majority of women over 55 are sexually invisible. The difference is that boys at 15 have hope, whereas women at 55 have memories. There are some women over 55 who do all right (they look like 15 year old girls with a few wrinkles), but there are 15 year old boys who clean up as well.
I wouldn’t be too hard on jokecougar. It is a devastating thing to be at the absolute bottom of the sexual food chain. Most women who bitch bitch bitch about the superficiality of older men focussing on the external at least have experienced the fleeting joy of being beautiful once in their lives, however well or poorly they handled it. To never have had that feeling must be a living hell. I know men so close to the bottom of the barrel that they preferred celibacy to what they could pull in the market. I don’t imagine its any different for women.
The funny thing is what constitutes “bottom of the barrel” for men today.
– 6 figure income
– 75,000 left on mortgage of a 5 bedroom house
– Paid off Lexus
– 2 collectors cars
– Many outdoor activities including hunting fishing cycling and hiking
– All his hair
– Pleasant and polite
Women: EWW GROSS GET HIM AWAY FROM ME!!!
I am all of the above, and I chose to go my own way. I don’t want the used up, fucked out refuse of the thug culture of today. I aint gonna put a ring on that used up slut, but I will bang her a couple times.
ybm:
I can relate. Here was my situation at 25, three years before I married:
–Two degrees, one of them a professional degree
–mid-five figure income in a prestigious profession,
–no dependents, no bastard children
–no college debt
–no mortgage, paid off car
–in shape, pleasant, polite
–hobbies included amateur acting and singing, hiking, bicuycling, weightlifting, travel
Women’s reply?
You’re too old
You’re too bald
You’re a creep
You’re too fat
You’re boring
I’m just not feeling it
I know many. many men like this today. Good jobs, good wage earners, not desperately broke, have their heads on straight, in shape, decent looking, not ugly but not model good looking either. These guys can’t get anything — not a SNL, not a ONS, not even a date with Susie Sunday School Teacher or Wendy Waitress or Sally Secretary.
Guys –
Now, imagine you are a woman and have had a steady stream of men in your life catering to your every whim – Charley to fix my computer, Tim to help me with Algebra, Bonedancer to fuck me and give me orgasms, Jake to help me move -and suddenly at age 35 you are transported into
what you have just described.
You’re too old
You’re too fat
You screech when you talk
Your p**sy is too floppy
You’re boring
You’re still torching for Big Dirk Goneagain who left you with your second child
You still think you’re special, but there are four more just like you right behind you,
I’ll fcuk you but don’t make any demands on me
I’m just not feeling it
Don’t you ever shut up?
I’m outta here
By the way, can you loan me 70 bucks for my light bill? That’s a girl.
Unless they understand what is waiting for them, they won’t change their ways
BTW, when I mean bottom of the barrel, I mean liquid helium omega, like that guy Roissy talked about who offed himself at 28 and it was 4 years before they found his bones in his apartment. We could have easily married into the Beergoggle Brigade in our twenties, or grabbed some trailer trash during her mayfly moment of iridescence. These guys didn’t even have that option.
I totally agree. I don’t even believe that women know what they want. I personally am 52 yo, make close to 6 figures, drive a BMW, my son is grown and out on his own, and I have never had trouble picking up women so I’m guessing my looks are not an issue!! And let me cut off the follow up banter, no the BMW is not what picks them up since I am aware of the game and don’t let on to what I have. Yet I meet women who want to serve their own interest irregards to what is required in a relationship or are so caught up in their own unsatisfying lives and routines they can’t even see a good man at their door. Women are to friggin emotional and on that rollar coaster they will never realize what they want
Asinus:
“Unless they understand what is waiting for them, they won’t change their ways”
Agree 100% with all of it. Agree that for women, a man’s experience at age 22 will be her experience at 42.
And don’t forget these:
–“Because he tingled you, you married Dirk Goneagain who was the HS football team QB, who became an unemployed drunk and beat you and your kids, so you divorced him; and now you want me to wife you up and be stepdad to your kids? Pass.”
–“I wanted to date you, but you married Harley McBadBoy. He ran off, and now you want me to play the role of Plan B? Pass.”
deti – if all of that stuff is really true, well done! Dating 25 women and having sex with 15 or whatever it was before you got married is pretty good going for a 25 year old (or even 28 year old) with those detriments! Suspects the things on the list are not all true but even if some or all true, that’s pretty good going.
And the mind boggles at what women would tell a 25 year old they were too old.
Lily: I know you’re trolling, but: I didn’t have sex with 15 women. Not even close. I dated at the the end of the traditional era and at the beginning of the current hookup era. We men were still expected to take women on proper dates. (Well, actually, beta providers in training were expected to date, pay for the date, and settle for LJBF when you called her a couple of days later.. The alphas could do whatever and whomever they wished.) There was very little “hanging out”.
Oh sorry. I really thought you’d had sex with 15 women or something very close, we even had a conversation about it on this very blog. Because I was confused on your comments (e.g. including years before 17 in the no sex years). Sorry if I remembered wrongly.
Re dating versus today’s hanging out, I think this men dating/paying for date is a very American thing. And some other countries like Japan. Maybe more Asian countries. I remember reading a few years ago about how men in Japan were annoyed because women were now earning money but still expected the to pay for everything whilst the women would spend their money on clothes and trips abroad with their friends. Never really had it in the UK. Usually go ‘Dutch’. Unless say you’re at college and you’re going out with an older guy.
I’ve asked male friends of mine and they haven’t really encountered women expecting them to pay.
It was one thing I noticed about my guy. I’d go to pay half and he’d physically (he’s quite a big guy) put his hand over mine to stop me.
@Lily
Are you even in the right thread?
Both of your comments dont even make sense … lay off the grass, or your hamsters tanked … not much difference …
Wow! This thread really grew legs. It seems that you Men’s Rights Activists get oh so defensive about this subject. Now let’s see…
I am 55-year-old successful journalist who got married (for the first time) two years ago to a man who is a 56-year-old successful attorney. In other words, we are basically the same age, and not losers looking for meal tickets.
I have an aunt who is 67, a retired RN, and got remarried (after being widowed following a 32-year marriage) two months ago. Her new husband is 66 and a retired pharmacist.
To add “insult to injury,” my mom’s best friend is 76 and also widowed, and just got engaged to her 76-year-old boyfriend, who she first dated in college. (Yes, she went to college. She is — horrors!– a retired physician. By the way: Her late husband was also a physician. Oh, and her fiance is a retired physician, as well.)
I repeat: Wow! These are just some examples of why you guys are full of crap!
P.S. — Threatened much?
@Anon
No we’re not threatened by a 55 yr old baby aborting birth control popping, hopped up on hip replacement painkillers pensioner , your 67 year old aunt or your 76 year old moms best friend …
But it looks youre threatened by men wanting to marry younger chicks, instead of your aunt, or your 76 year old moms best friend …
Also theres some interesting statistics & facts in Dalrocks post, proving you pensioners are in fact threatened by men marrying younger & tighter sluts …
Thnx for playing my worn out vagina is not like that … or my moms best friends vagina …
Read about some more “old, useless broads” who weren’t discarded for 20-something Barbie Dolls: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/13/teen-sweethearts-rekindle_n_1273652.html?icid=maing-grid7|maing11|dl20|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D135334
P.S. — I am not a “pensioner” ( I am actively employed, as is my new husband), I never took birth control pills, nor did I ever have an “abortion.” Oh, and I have yet to have a hip replacement (thanks to the fact that I am only 55, and have been exercising religiously since my teens, and now practice yoga five days a week). For the record, my 67-year-old aunt and my mom’s friends have never had hip replacements, either. Although I can’t speak for the others, I assure you that my vagina is in excellent condition, and is “working” just fine. LOL!
re the huffpo link
YAY! another femi-clown who thinks that one counter example to a set of statistics invalidates the results.
Similar to; most people are right-handed. no, you’re wrong ‘cos I’m left handed…duh
If we could harness wimminz’ stupidity our energy problems would be over.
Just1X
Yep….its the most pathetic form of forensic rhetoric. I cringe when I see that, because I know that no matter what is stated, this person cannot see past arms length, they are utterly ignorant, their life informs them, which informs their life, circular. EVERYTHING they do is based on one anecdote.
The other form of this is when I say for example to my wife, “you’ve been kind of disengaged lately around here, all the studying you are doing”….and her response is “not true, last Saturday i didn’t study at all” Its using an anecdote to refute a generality. Its maddening
anon , woman…..READ the damn comments, not the infernal subtext that women seem un-flipping-able to avoid inserting into the words of others.
Since NO ONE claimed that EVERY woman is any certain way (hint, if I say “women do x” it does not preclude that some women do Y.) what, please explain this, is the motive behind sharing your story as if it has a tad of utility to the point here?
I realize that you females thrive in hidden agendas and subtext (now, lets see, you will tell me of a man who is all about subtext and a woman who is quite literal…right?) but try reading the written word as it is written. Words mean specific things, strung together they convey specific and limited concepts. Limit the reading the the amalgam of the words and their meanings, get outside your head where you are constantly thinking “what does he/she MEAN by that?”.
Its wysiwyg with men and comments, no more no less.
An article showing men taking Barbies and jettisoning middle aged women is NOT data for the idea that “women tire of men after 55”.
Can you not see that?
Women think personally. If you go to a barbecue and ask a man who is grilling a steak where he bought the steak, he’ll reply “At the butcher’s on 12th Street.” If it is a woman who is grilling the steak, she’ll reply “Why? What’s wrong with it?”
Anon. has done a lot of things right. She has exercised since her girlhood and remained physically and mentally active. It is kind of strange to wait until after menopause to get married, but to each their own. But not every postmenopausal woman is her, in fact, very, very few are going to marry successful attorneys close to their own age. There is no way for them to return to their late adolescences and begin the exercise routine Anon. has been practicing for 35 years, and allowing them to believe that they are only a few leg lifts away from the same outcome just allows them to continue in the same delusion.
“If you go to a barbecue and ask a man who is grilling a steak where he bought the steak, he’ll reply “At the butcher’s on 12th Street.” If it is a woman who is grilling the steak, she’ll reply “Why? What’s wrong with it?”
This should be on a billboard. May I steal it?
Anon’s comments are just more evidence that most women view absoltely everything through the prism of their own limited experiences. It can’t be true if she personally has not witnessed it or talked to someone else who experienced it. Her own experiences are Truth, and no amount of evidence, statistics or studies can refute that Truth.
This blog has gotten way to intellectual and nasty for me, but the barbeque statement cracked me up. I have been dating one of these dreaded 55 year olds (opinion of many on this blog) for 3 years. She is 10 years younger than me, very attractive and fun to be with. But we recently traveled to Carmel for the recent PGA Pro-AM at Pebble Beach. We stayed at a nice place down the coast toward Big Sur and the motel was a long rectangle where you drive up to the front door of your unit. All units had a balcony facing the Pacific Ocean. So I drove up and checked in while my girlfriend stayed in the car. When I opened the door to the unit, you could see straight through to the sliding glass balcony doors and see the ocean. She looked at me and in a loving voice said, “did you upgrade us to an ocean view”? All I could do was say, “Yep”. I would like to think she was kidding me, but she called her best friend and told her about the great thing I had done……..So there is some truth in the Barbeque theory. I originally attributed her sometimes funny behavior to being blonde, but now I understand it is because she turned 55 🙂
@Donald
I think that senses of humour begin to get frayed when the same damn statement is uttered for the 50th time.
It is only the presence of women such as Suz (though she is not alone) which give me the strength to believe NAWALT.
Of course, the other favourite old chestnut is;
“Women’s fertility drops markedly in their mid to late thirties”
cue the response
“but, but, my friend had a baby aged 41, so you must be just lying and trying to oppress me with awkward, patriarchal, facts”
Anyone claiming that facts are oppressive acts of the patriarchy is a 100%, full to the brim with bullshite, feminist. Oops, I repeated myself
@QA
” It strikes me that in evolutionary terms a woman and her offspring who didn’t have investment from a man later in life would be at a disadvantage safety and resource wise compared with women who did. I don’t see any reason why this would suddenly cease to be around the age of 55.”
I don’t think the evolutionary terms apply her as women in that age bracket tend to hold the most wealth in women of all age groups. There’s also that nowadays it’s not really that much of a disadvantage to not have a man financially. In most cases the woman is out-earning him so he tends to be pocket change to her not an equal contributor much less the breadwinner which to me is the sole provider.
I think there are several factors to consider:
Increasingly more and more heterosexual women and men in America are becoming disinterested in relationships/marriage with the opposite gender.
Most men over 30 do not want women their own age and date & marry women 10-20 years younger than then so a woman in her 50s options are extremely limited since there are few men her age away much less the 10-20 year older ones who would consider her a viable partner.
The men at that age left don’t tend to be attractive (overweight like most Americans, bald which can be unappealng to some women, hairy which can be unappealing to some women just like hairy women tend to be unappealing to most men). Women are less visual not blind. For those claiming shallow well attraction is shallow. Pretty sure most haven’t approached a girl based on her personality. Let’s not forget the scores of men who bash women over 30 and the idolize men in their 50s-70s getting 20 somethings.
So there are just women who are uninterested and women who became uninterested do to the lack of options they had.
” If women aren’t interested in marriage for life, what is the point?”
Seems overeaching to me that marriage had any point to begin with. Legally it was just a man labeling his property. Religiously it was the same but with moral codes of chastity and monogamy.
The only point to marriage to me is a life partner.
Something as stated before increasingly many heterosexual women & men in America don’t want or don’t see the opposite gender of being worthwhile quality options for that.
The question also seems to be working on that most men even see a point in marriage or are interested in it.
I highly doubt most men want to commit in any form to a woman unless she’s his perfect ideal considering that most men delay any serious commitment until much later. The most serious committment most are willing to make is girlfriend aka girl for now which tend to be placeholders until she can be upgraded and are easily downgraded to fwb often without the girl knowing. GF tends to mean girl for now as being a gf doesn’t mean you have any real role in his life as as I find a lot of guys rarely do as women do combine gf material with wife material. Always amusing to see a girl only boyfriending guys she consider husband material and she finds out that guy doesn’t do the same and his gf requirements are pretty & pleasant as he’ll worry about the other stuff later if he feels like it.
I really doubt that most men think of women as being long term investments in the same way as it seems to goes against biologically wanting variety.
I highly doubt most men want marriage to American women as the Hate American Women and AntiAmerican Woman marriage movement seems to show.
To me it seems like most Americans are interested in casual relationships which are really just dating and those that are looking for gf/bf there are more women than men. Then those looking for marriage there are more women than men.
I’m glad for the American marriage strike and just hope more women get involved as laura’s story of being sold short is not uncommon. While having a life partner may be a romantic ideal for most women it seems the reality is forgotten:
1. only 1 in 10 couples remain in love- most like it won’t work
2. most men hit a mid life crisis if their partner is older or the same age as them
* studies show generally men’s mid life crisis is not their own age but the aging of their wife they get the hot new car to attract a younger mate *
3. most men don’t want to commit to a woman until much later in life and if you wait for that you’ll be the age where most men tend to see women over 30 as used up/old and even degrade their genitals
4. if you want a guy while you’re young you’re most likely going to be getting unattractive boring uninteresting guys your age you have to force attraction for or 30-40 year olds who you may also force attraction for….shocker there are young girls who aren’t attracted to older men
* stat wise there are few women who are attracted to a man because of his age aka he’s more attractive because he’s 10 years older. Most women are attracted to a man inspite of his age it’s not a negative like being a 30 year old woman is to most 30 year old men.
* my experience plenty of girls I know marrying guys their age because he’d be a good husband/father not because they’re attracted to him and he’d be a good husband/father..then again attractive and relationship/marriage material rarely seems to exist in guys.. either way I see divorces waiting to happen when the resentment builds up
5. most married men cheat 60%
6. most married women cheat 50%- so likely you’ll cheat on him
7. most likely you’ll divorce him
8. not being divorced doesn’t mean happy as over half of married women are unhappy- so even if you don’t divorce most likely you marry you’re going to be unhappy
9. 30% of married men are unhappy- there’s a possibility he’s unhappy
The greatest challenge of all being in a happy healthy relationship with a partner who you’re attracted to who satisfies your sexual and emotional needs is near impossible for a woman.
Most men aren’t interested in their partner’s emotional needs as that’s femininzing/pussification. Most men aren’t interested in their partner’s sexual needs unless for his own ego as her orgasm = her responsibility.
I laughed for days when one girl by got told this by her bf and decided to start handling her responsibility by masturbating rather than having sex.
It was quite hilarious to see them debate him on how she’s withholding/using sex as a weapon by not satisfying his sexual need. Her by stating it’s not a need for sex but a need for sexual release which he can get from masturbation and that she doesn’t see how she’s obligated to satisfy her partner’s sexual need when he has no burden to ensure her sexual pleasure. Plus having sex with him would be handling her orgasms irresponsibly as most women orgasm more and faster through masturbation than vaginal sex’s 30% chance and the less than half of the orgasm of your partner they’ll have in a relationship.
They did not last. She went uninterested in men interestingly enough.
==========================================================================
I’m highly amused by the negative reactions to laura’s comment of how she supported, cared, and was sexually active aka “with benefits” for her partner who poofed on her.
If a male he was divorced most likely commeters would fill in the blanks that he was a good father, good husband, and that the ex was a spoiled American woman who just got bored and bled him dry in divorce.
All this filling based on simply because he’s a man so he’s automatically assumed to be good rather than judged on his gender. It’s amusing because the commeters seem to be doing what most would readily claim feminists do automatically assuming men are at fault and all/most women are good simply because they are women.
==========================================================================
@sestamibi
That doesn’t seem to be feminism’s fault.
If you’re blaming the autism that’s likely you as older males procreating are linked to autism so that’s genetics.
If you’re blaming that you had a child late in life that’s on you as feminism didn’t completely halted all options for you to procreate when you were younger. Most likely you could have gotten a girl to marriage and have a child with when you were younger however it probably wouldn’t have been one up to your standards. It’s extremely rare for most people of either gender to have no options most people have options they just tend to not want those that are most available.
Just like the average guy’s (5) complaints that they can’t get a girl usually tends to be false they can get a girl just not one that he wants who will do what he wants. They tend to have girls pursuing them just ones they find ugly (5 and below). Quite amusing to see how most guys consider a 6-7 settling when both numbers are above average.
@Just1X
Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.
Goddamn proof-read your writing next time that is an unreadable soup of stream-of-consciousness nonsense.
The charge : fuckwittery
The evidence: “In most cases the woman is out-earning him”
and more evidence
“Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”
You raise femi-“thinking” to new heights (this day, this blog)
lose quantity for men…only need one decent swimmer, you’re talking about fewer also-swams.
lose quality at 23…ORLY? don’t believe your numbers / “facts”
You’re doing the old; X is true of women, BUT Y is true of men.
Then demanding that X == Y, well it isn’t, tough luck toots.
“Patriarchal reality(tm)” can be a bitch
Seems you’re lacking on the genetics research as well as American economics.
Also looks like you’re displaying some of this behavior: “Anon’s comments are just more evidence that most women view absoltely everything through the prism of their own limited experiences. It can’t be true if she personally has not witnessed it or talked to someone else who experienced it. Her own experiences are Truth, and no amount of evidence, statistics or studies can refute that Truth.”
“You raise femi-”thinking” to new heights (this day, this blog)”
Where/when did I state I was a feminist? Seems you’re making the illogical assumption based on emotions and projecting what you want.
““Patriarchal reality(tm)” can be a bitch”
Yeah more on that emotion overruling logic…..
“You’re doing the old; X is true of women, BUT Y is true of men.”
Now I’m doing studies state such and such about fertility quantity/quality in men and women.
“Then demanding that X == Y, well it isn’t, tough luck toots.”
Show me where I was demanding X == Y
Pretty sure men drop in quality then quantity & women drop in quantity then quality isn’t X = Y.
It’s men – quantity – quality
it’s women – quality – quantity
So how did you get your intrepretation? I’m not even curious to the femi-thinking as I think it’s just an emotional reactive attempt to dismiss any statement by a woman because if she has a vagina she’s a feminist.
“dismiss any statement by a woman because if she has a vagina she’s a feminist.”
Yup. A womans “opnion” has about as much value to me as roadkill. The great thing is that there are more of us every day, and more and more women are starting to feel the same way. Enjoy your cats spinster!
Because numb-nuts you are demanding that the decrease in fertility be regarded as equal between men and women.
It’s men – quantity – quality == it’s women – quality – quantity
so it is all ‘fair’. Well it isn’t equal. Reality isn’t fair. And I still didn’t see you give refs for your “facts”
It’s all over by the mid forties for the vast majority of women (and hard 5-10 years earlier), men don’t have this catastrophic decline.
Celebrity older fathers include: Tony Blair (at 45), Ken Livingstone (at 57), Mick Hucknall (at 47), David Bowie (at 53), Mick Jagger (at 57), Phil Collins (at 51), Rupert Murdoch (at 72), Michael Douglas (at 58), Des O’Connor (at 72), Gordon Brown (at 54), Rod Stewart (at 60), Paul McCartney (at 61), David Jason (61), Eric Clapton (at 59), John Humphrys (at 56), John Simpson (at 61), Julio Iglesias Sr. (father of the singer Julio, at 89), Charlie Chaplin (at 73), Augustus John (at 47), Pierre Trudeau (at 72), Saul Bellow (at 84), Anthony Quinn (at 81) Pablo Picasso (at 68) and Luciano Pavarotti (twins at 67), Jonathan Dimbleby (at 62), David Letterman (at 56), Larry King (at 65 and 66), Woody Allen (at 51), Warren Beatty (at 62), and Jack Nicholson (at 53), Mike Oldfield (at 54), Dennis Quaid (at 50), Rick Parfitt (at 59), Van Morrison (allegedly at 64), Kevin Costner (at 55), Rod Stewart (father at 66), Kelsey Grammer (father at 55), Ritchie Blackmore (father at 65), Frank Skinner (will be father at 55).
Dr Brenda Eskenazi, a co-author of the report, said: “Our research suggests that men, too, have a biological time clock – only it is different. Men seem to have a gradual, rather than an abrupt change in fertility and in the potential ability to produce viable, healthy offspring.”
femi-thinking means female-“logic is oppression, facts are what I decide they are”-thinking. It isn’t compulsory that you think like this BTW it’s just society allows women to get away with it more than men. I don’t know if you’re a feminist, but I’m sure that you’re an idiot FWIW.
Yup. A womans “opnion” has about as much value to me as roadkill. The great thing is that there are more of us every day, and more and more women are starting to feel the same way. Enjoy your cats spinster!”
Cool then you’re just irrational emotionally reactive strawman guy who throws out verbal attacks.
Egh in America both genders feel like sh*t by the other gender.
More like bachelorette.
@Just1X
I don’t know why you are bothering to refute any of her anecdotes because she did not come here in good faith to provide an argument. If it did, here would have been facts and figures and an attempt at grammar. Instead their was false-equivocation, verbal gymnastics, poor grammar, a complete lack of sources, and an obvious bad-faith demeanor.
F- See me after class.
“Cool then you’re just irrational emotionally reactive strawman guy who throws out verbal attacks. ”
Feels good man.
“Because numb-nuts you are demanding that the decrease in fertility be regarded as equal between men and women.”
Where/when did I make any demand? More of your emotion overruling logic..
Where/when did I state that there was an equal increase? More of your emotion overruling logic..
Let’s look back:
“Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”
Both genders lose fertility generally when 23.
*No mention of comparing amounts or the word equal.*
Men lose quality and women lose quantity.
*No mention of comparing amounts or the word equal.*
Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”
*No mention of comparing amounts or the word equal.*
The only possibly equal thing that could be gleamed is that decline generally starts at 23 and really kicks off mid to late thirties.
So how did you get your intrepretation? Oh right more of your emotion overruling logic..
Reading what you what rather than what is then and projecting what you what.
What is her point for petes sake?
Distraction would be a compliment. There was once a day when those megabytes would be reclaimed based on need, now we have lots-a-space
“false-equivocation” thank you I was trying to remember the correct term.
Didn’t Zed give rather a good summary of all the standard delusional bullshit spouted by such as dolly? Just after xmas IIRC.
“decline generally starts at 23 and really kicks off mid to late thirties.”
yes…for women
“yes…for women”
For both genders.
Scientists actually state 25 once again for both because that’s when there is a significant drop however the decline begins at 23.
you are shining wit (google spoonerism)
“Toxoplasmosis: could that latent infection affect people’s behavior?”
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/03/how-your-cat-is-making-you-crazy/8873/?single_page=true#1_undefined,0_
one for dolly I suspect
(gnight mout)
Lets go with 23 and 8 months….’k…..split the difference
@Udoli
You mentioned genetic research & economics …
Can you show us your research … you’ve already shown us you’re hamster … it looks pretty over fed & the treadmills about to fly off, I suggest less mexican soap reruns & more tacos …
@Udoli
“Both genders lose fertility generally when 23”
Wrong, men dont loose fertility ever … apart from stds & infections
“Wrong, men dont loose fertility ever … apart from stds & infections”
It’s lose and wow just wow.
So never huh guess all that research age, health, smoking, drinking studies on sperm concentration, morphology, and motility is wrong.
“Lets go with 23 and 8 months….’k…..split the difference”
Egh I’ll stick to 23 as that’s when it starts to decline generally for the genders.
I get that until 25 it’s not a significant decline to be considered fertility loss by researchers.
However to me it was still like saying it’s not cancer unless you have X cancerous cells.
“You mentioned genetic research & economics …”
Perhaps you check your reading comprehension. I already did for the quality quantity bit when it was indirectly asked for.
I normally don’t give out links as my way is when presented with new information look it up on a scholar search engine. Despite being first insulted and having others incapable of acting rationally and reading what they want rather than what is there I gave out the 2 names and clips for the quality quantity bit for others to look up.
Once again I don’t spoon feed look it up not on me to keep you up to date on news.
“you’ve already shown us you’re hamster … it looks pretty over fed & the treadmills about to fly off, I suggest less mexican soap reruns & more tacos …”
Where/when have I shown I’m a hamster?
I stated men lose quality then quantity and women lose quantity then quality. I’ve never backtracked on that and I provided information for others to check for themselves and gave scholar search engines aka paper study engines to do more research.
Interesting as a hamster would be Just1X and his comments.
Such as evading where/when I state anything like he claimed such as how he stating that I was demanding that the decrease in fertility be regarded as equal between men and women from this:
“Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”
Both genders lose fertility generally when 23.
*No mention of comparing amounts or the word equal.*
Men lose quality and women lose quantity.
*No mention of comparing amounts or the word equal.*
Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”
*No mention of comparing amounts or the word equal.*
The only possibly equal thing that could be gleamed is that decline generally starts at 23 and really kicks off mid to late thirties.
The only hamsters I’ve seen are ymb and his insults and evasive tactics and JustX01 and his projections evading rationality.
“Where/when have I shown I’m a hamster?”
lol …
Ah evasion tactics.
Seems ad hominens, shaming language, and evasion of rationality are the trademark of commenters here.
I stated stated men lose quality then quantity and women lose quantity then quality.
I’ve never backtracked on that.
I provided information for others to check for themselves and gave scholar search engines aka paper study engines to do more research.
Yeah that’s being a hamster. lmfao
So what’s insulting first, not supplying answers and evading, and projecting what you wanted rather than what was there?
Yep much “logic” in “Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.” is someone demanding that the decrease in fertility be regarded as equal between men and women when no comparison to the amounts of decrease or the word equal was used.
Then can’t answer where/when I demanded that or how they got that interpretation. Yet still continue on and when broken down that nowhere is that implication goes back to shaming and insults.
Ah the emotions overruling logic. Well it is valentine’s day and seems you guys are hooked on being emotional rather than rational.
@ ybm says:
“February 14, 2012 at 11:25 am
@Just1X
I don’t know why you are bothering to refute any of her anecdotes because she did not come here in good faith to provide an argument. If it did, here would have been facts and figures and an attempt at grammar. Instead their was false-equivocation, verbal gymnastics, poor grammar, a complete lack of sources, and an obvious bad-faith demeanor.”
In my defence, I wasn’t reading her drivel. I was using feminist debating techniques to play with her hamster (I was bored – sue me). I still don’t see that she made any points worth reading beyond a skim.
What is the hill to die on here? This is the most absurd online micro debate Ive seen in a long time.
I made a statement and provided information that shows it to be true. Despite the ad hominens and my way of not providing sources because I don’t spoon feed in the age of digital technology where scholar search engines exists.
I’m amused at this lack of sources when I gave it I just don’t spoon feed you want further details scholar search engine.
I’m really amused by this bad faith demeanor bs coming from two commenters only insulted in their first responses and then when asked to show rationality continued to do so and projected what they wanted.
Stating a fact and backing it up is not an argument to most logical people.
However you’re not so you project what you want and your projected an argument.
You claimed that I saying fertility loss is equal in the genders & that I had demanded there was equal loss of fertility in men and women.
Despite not being able to show where/when I said this as you claim when asked repeatedly.
Despite not being able to show where/when I demanded what you claim when asked repeatedly.
Despite not being able to show where/when I compared the amount of fertility or used the word equal when asked repeatedly.
Despite me breaking down the statement to show that I did no comparing the amount fertility or use the word equal.
Despite me asking where you got this projection.
Despite my statement being:
““Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.””
Most logical people would get men lose quality then quantity, women lose quantity then quality and the ages it occurs.
Not fertility loss amounts in men and women are equal, that men losing quality then quantity & women losing quantity then quality is equal, and whatever else your mind got
Yet on another page you continued to ask me after all this when I provided the information to back up my statement what numbers I’m talking about because in your mind ’m stilling saying fertility loss numbers are equal rather than what I stated.
I told youwas on the incorrect page as it’s “Are Women Done With Men After Age 55″ where I stated gender quality/quantity lost and then broke it down again that what you was on your emotions not logic and asked you where/when I mentioned numbers or gave numbers.
Funny how you didn’t reply that page but do so on here.
My you’re amusing shifting the responsibility of your emotional irrational ad hominen filled shaming language evasion posts as feminist techniques because you were bored. Rather than you looked at a statement as a debate despite attempts at rationality because you were emotional. LMAO XD
@ empathologicalism
Egh it wasn’t really a debate just ybm & Just1X being emotional and me wanting to see how emotional reactive, ad hominen first, shaming language evasion tactics commenters would react.
I made a statements they insulted on two separate pages.
So I provided information to back up my statement on one page & asked them what they found illogical that they felt they had to insult on the other page.
YBM’s emotional reaction was being so focused on insulting me being so focused in insulting me that on the other page the wrong one he claimed I didn’t back up my facts on the when I already did and right after a Just1X also on the wrong page posted a clip of information that I did.
Just1X’s emotional reaction was his focus on what he wanted to be there not what was there first claiming that I was trying to say fertility loss was equal. Then evading requests tos how me where/when I did what he claimed. He continuing on with what he projected claiming that I saying that I had demanded there was equal loss of fertility in men and women. Then evading requests to show me where I compared the fertility loss amounts or used the word equal. Or just answering how he got any of that from: “““Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”” after I broke my statement down sentence by sentence.
This was amusing. Thanks for the laughs ybm & Just1X whether you were serious or just trolling.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/garble.htm
Or
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/loopy.htm
The little hissy fit is so cute.
Insulting first on 2 pages. Not being able to keep track of what page to insult on. Being so focused on insulting that you what you insulted was wrong.
Amuse me more.
what
Amuse me with some more evasion tactics,
I’m already amused by your how my attempts to at rationality received more evasion on your basis that since I’m a woman I’m a feminist and since I’m a woman my opinion doesn’t matter
Like I stated before on the other page you insulted and evaded rationality quite some time you’ve been spending on an opinion that doesn’t matter. LMAO XD
which opinion?
Which opinions didn’t matter it was who’s opinion.
After all you’ve shown with your lack of reading comprehension sucks and you were just looking for the anything to insult.
Recall your own words to this “dismiss any statement by a woman because if she has a vagina she’s a feminist.”.
Yup. A womans “opnion” has about as much value to me as roadkill. The great thing is that there are more of us every day, and more and more women are starting to feel the same way. Enjoy your cats spinster!
So are you going to continue to amuse me with your hissy fits?
I’m guessing you’re serious rather than just trolling. LMAO XD
When did I post that? Use the timestamp.
If I’m not going to look up information I provide for you what would make you think I’d look up the timestamp of one your many nonsensical emotionally reactive posts?
Oh right you’re not logical. LMAO XD
Amuse me more
How can I address your comment if you cannot identify what you are referring to?
I did identify what I was referring to.
Recall your own words to this “dismiss any statement by a woman because if she has a vagina she’s a feminist.”.
Yup. A womans “opnion” has about as much value to me as roadkill. The great thing is that there are more of us every day, and more and more women are starting to feel the same way. Enjoy your cats spinster!
Let me spoon feed you since you can’t even recall what you typed. No surprise with your emotional reactive nonsensical posting.
Copy & paste what you typed and click find in your browser if you want the timestamp.
So if you had to summarize your comments in one single phrase, what would it be?
I already did that repeatedly on this page and the other page were your first comment was an insult.
Your lack of reading comprehension is showing again then again you weren’t trying to read what was there or be logical just focused on insulting. So now you’re going to be reasonable? LMAO XD
Udoli this threads about ancient relics flaunting their wrinkled zimmer frames, & acting like sluts in their golden years, instead of behaving like decent paternal grandmothers …
Why cant women, simply behave like decent ppl, & age gracefully, instead of clutching their u go girl attitude & stretch marks, well into their wrinkly old age …
Garble OR Loopy?
I vote both oh and Twunt
@Rmaxd
Egh not really perhaps in your mind and to you that’s what this thread is about.
The thread was about are women done with men after 55 and possible reasons as to why? along with side topics of fertility loss and comments by women over that age as to why they may or may not be done with men.
Let’s not forget about ancient relics flaunting their balding pot bellied wrinkled framers acting like sluts instead of behaving like decent paternal grandfathers.
“Why cant women, simply behave like decent ppl, & age gracefully, instead of clutching their u go girl attitude & stretch marks, well into their wrinkly old age …”
Same reason men can’t behave decently, age gracefuly in fact deny any aging and clutch to their men are superior/men rule/u go dude/I wear the pants attitude stretchmarks, pot bellies and balding. Most people aren’t decent and cling to their youth it’s human nature.
Baiting this dumass, is pretty hilarious …
Here goes nothing …
You get stretchmarks from childbirth …slim fit men in their old age, dont get stretch marks …
Btw google want their translator back after reading your posts …
Also its the majority of women who go around acting like whores well past their 50’s
Ive yet to meet an ancient fossil who didnt think she was still the goto slut in the blitz
Women dont age gracefull, in fact they get even more wacked out & delusional
Older women are a whole new crazy, as the countless crones in this thread demonstrates … lol
@Rmaaxd
Being called a dumbass by someone who stated “Wrong, men dont loose fertility ever … apart from stds & infections” doesn’t mean much. LMAO XD
You also get stretchmarks from puberty and muscle bulking athlete training. Most men have stretchmarks as 40% get it from puberty.
My country is America and most men here aren’t slim or fit and already have stretchmarks from puberty and/or weight gain with more than 60% of Americans are overweight/obese. Not so much on the athlete training lmfao. Not sure why the focus on stretchmarks though since there are surgeries to remove them.
The majority of people act likes sluts, whores, and skanks. The notion of it’s easier for women to get sex wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t going by the idea that men are generally sluts and sexually available at a moment’s notice. So for men it’s that they’re either sluts, whores, and skanks or want to be.
I have yet to meet an ancient fossil that didn’t act like or want to be a slut. After all most men seek variety and aren’t ready to settle down until much later in life.
Humans don’t age gracefully and most American get more wacked out & delusional with age. Male aging is less focused on since women are less visual, are vain and focused on their own beauty, and society doesn’t judge a man’s worth on bis looks/youth but his character more. Wrinkles and sagging aren’t exclusive to women.
Older men are also in this whole new crazy as you, ybm, and Just1X have demonstrated with ad hominens, irrational statements, shaming language evasion, and severe lack of reading comprehension. It’s no new thing as it seems emotionally reactive and evading attempts at rationality is the new way for males to communicate…at least online.
& udoli defines a whole new crazy …
Coming from someone who stated “Wrong, men dont loose fertility ever … apart from stds & infections” LMAO XD
So if you can be logical and no evade with insults what’s crazy about?
1. Childbirth is not the only way you get stretchmarks there’s puberty, weight gain, and muscle building athlete training.
2. Most men have stretchmarks from puberty (40%) and in my country from weight gain as most are overweight/obese
3. Your slim fit men dont get stretch marks is a rarity as most men have stretchmarks from puberty and most men in my country aren’t slim fit.
4. Humans don’t age gracefully & most American get more wacked out & delusional with age
5. Your its the majority of women who go around acting like whores well past their 50′s is bs since most people act like sluts so it’s not just mainly women. The whole it’s easier from women to get sex wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t going by the idea that men are generally sluts or want to be and sexually available at a moment’s notice so apparently men are sluts or want to be at any age.
6. Older men are also in this whole new crazy as you, ybm, amd Just1X have demonstrated with ad hominens, irrational statements, shaming language evasion, and severe lack of reading comprehension. As well as loads of other men though both young & old with their emotional reactive communication at least online.
Check your shoes guys, did you step in something? That smell must be coming from somewhere.
oh hang on, the ktazy kat lady is back…oh noes
Still not making any points or sense, but hey you go gryyyyl
@Just1X
It’s really amusing how you ad hominen and claim I’m not making sense but never answer any questions to show me where/when I’m not making sense.
Yeah you taking”“Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.” to mean someone is demanding that the decrease in fertility be regarded as equal between men and women makes perfect sense LMAO XD
Yeah what you got made perfect sense rather than than what it says men lose quality then quantity & women lose quantity then quality.
Yeah you sticking to what you got made perfect sense despite:
me repeatedly telling you that it means men lose quality then quantity & women lose.
me repeatedly asking to show where/when I demanded what you claimed.
me even breaking it down and showing you that there were no comparisons in fertility amount and the word equal wasn’t used.
Yeah you made perfect sense to still to evade with insults and stick with whatever you wanted to read rather than what you read. LMAO XD
So what did you want to read now that didn’t make sense?
Is there a reason this topic about losing fertility is a hill to die on?
“Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”
So what’s the point of that statement?
It may well be true, but so what? what was your point in making it?
@ empathologicalism
I thought that topic was already passed.
I was just making note of how much sense Just1X has shown.
Apparently the new topic is how it’s crazy, sh*t, and makes no sense that
1. Stretchmarks also come from puberty, weight gain, and muscle building athletic training.
2. Most men have stretchmarks from puberty (40%) and in America from weight gain as most are overweight/obese so old slim fit men with no stretch marks are a rarity since slim fit men at any age are the minority
3. That humans don’t age gracefully in general
4. It’s not just past 50 women who are acting like sluts but most people as the whole it’s easier for women to get sex wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t going by the idea that men are generally sluts or want to be.
5. Both genders are in a whole new level of crazy in America
Since this is Just1X and Rmaxd requests as to how it’s crazy, sh*t, and makes no sense are answered with insults to evade any explanation.
@Just1X
That you had to ask me why I brought it up just shows how you emotional, irrational, and lacking in reading comprehension you are.
There would be no need to ask me my point if you didn’t emotional react and insult first then evade my attempts at rationality and been so focused on what you wanted to be there not what was there. You wouldn’t have needed to go into your long winded ad hominens and evasions that you now claim you were doing as feminist tactics rather than your own emotions overruling logic. LMAO XD
Let’s look at this rationally.
Before my statement
“Women’s fertility drops markedly in their mid to late thirties”
My statement
“Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”
Hmm..now why would I make that statement….. oh to provide a correction. A correction I provide sources for. It’s basically someone make an analogy with misinformation and someone else offering “actually it’s this”.
Rather than look at it rationally what you did was insult first. Then showed your irrationality with your focus on what you wanted to be there not what was there. With your claim that I was doing X = Y then ignoring my response to that to go claim that I saying fertility loss is equal in the genders & that I had demanded there was equal loss of fertility in men and women.
Despite not being able to show where/when:
I said this as you claimed when asked repeatedly.
I demanded what you claimed when asked repeatedly.
I compared the amount of fertility or used the word equal when asked repeatedly.
Despite me asking where you got this projection and breaking down the statement to show that I did no comparing the amount fertility or use the word equal.
““Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.””
Most rational people would get to mean men lose quality then quantity and women lose quantity then quality not some kind of demand, stating something is equal, or comparing fertility loss amount as you got and insisted on. LMAO XD
Like I said you were so focused on what you wanted to be there and having something to argue. LMAO XD
“oh to provide a correction”
no, not really.
women’s fertility does drop in her mid to late thirties (as I said)
you’re saying it does it in her early twenties as well (yes, so what?)
and it deops for men at both points (maybe, so what?)
what point are you trying to make? you didn’t correct what I said
I did correct what you said.
Research shows women’s drops at 23 though scientists don’t consider the levels to be fertility loss until 25.
That is a correction. Or specification if you’re going to get unhinged and emotional again as I’m specifying when it begins dropping so others aren’t misinformed to think mid to late thirties are when women’s fertility begins dropping.
It’s a correction to me as my statement doesn’t permit yours to mislead others into thinking women’s feritility begins dropping at mid to later thirties.
It shouldn’t be that hard to grasp how others may conclude that as you somehow got ““Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.” to mean I was saying fertility loss was equal without equal being used or fertility loss amounts not being compared.
Are you looking for something else to argue again? LMAO XD
Still amused at how at your claim that I was doing X = Y then ignoring my response to that to go claim that I saying fertility loss is equal in the genders & that I had demanded there was equal loss of fertility in men and women.
Despite not being able to show where/when:
I said this as you claimed when asked repeatedly.
I demanded what you claimed when asked repeatedly.
I compared the amount of fertility or used the word equal when asked repeatedly.
That’s not a correction, it’s an addition.
That’s where it all started.
So what point were you trying to make?
I already answered what point I was trying to make with my statement. Your lack of reading comprehension is showing again as the answer is in the post above you. LMAOXD
Are you aware that to many an addition is a correction? LMAO XD
That’s not where it all started.
Where it all started was that you your comment to my posts on two separate pages were ad hominens and on both pages you Ignored my requests to show rationality with shaming language and more ad hominens.
On this page you claimed that I was doing X = Y then ignored my response to that to go claim that I saying fertility loss is equal in the genders & that I had demanded there was equal loss of fertility in men and women.
Despite not being able to show where/when:
I said this as you claimed when asked repeatedly.
I demanded what you claimed when asked repeatedly.
I compared the amount of fertility or used the word equal when asked repeatedly.
Despite me asking where you got this projection and breaking down the statement to show that I did no comparing the amount fertility or use the word equal.
Your focus on what you wanted to be there and wanting to argue something & ybm’s focus on having something to insult was were it all began.
Well, here in the patriarchy we tend to say it started with the first comment:
“@Just1X
Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”
And you haven’t got to any point so far…come on give it a try, what point were you trying to make?
TL;DNR
oh sorry, it’s not that I have a problem with reading comprehension. It’s that I don’t bother reading your drivel, you appear to have noticed which spoils the game a little. (I only caught the comprehension bit this skim through). I’ve never read all of any of your comments; but you never made a point worth reading, so that’s fair.
p.s.
an addition is not a correction; it builds on the original statement, it doesn’t negate it’s truth.
@Just1X
You do lack reading comprehension.
As only one with severe lacking would get “Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.” to mean I was saying fertility loss was equal without equal being used or fertility loss amounts not being compared.
My statement wasn’t drivel your ad hominens and shaming language evasion tactics were drivel.
They were amusing but drivel nonetheless.
My follow up comments certainly weren’t reading as they were addressing your ad homens, evasion tactics, and irrationality. My post-comments were just me attempting to get rationality from you something obviously that would fail as you seemed focused on what you wanted to read versus what was there.
Your ps would only be warranted if I said that your statement wasn’t true. Something I didn’t.
The fact you continue to ask this “And you haven’t got to any point so far…come on give it a try, what point were you trying to make?” despite it being answered repeatedly and me telling you the answer is in the post right above you when you asked it again once again shows your lack of reading comprehension. LMAO XD
@Just1X
Perhaps you can recall this:
“Are you looking for something else to argue again? LMAO XD
Still amused at how at your claim that I was doing X = Y then ignoring my response to that to go claim that I saying fertility loss is equal in the genders & that I had demanded there was equal loss of fertility in men and women.
Despite not being able to show where/when:
I said this as you claimed when asked repeatedly.
I demanded what you claimed when asked repeatedly.
I compared the amount of fertility or used the word equal when asked repeatedly.”
No, don’t recognise it. I didn’t read it then, or now.
Okay, your statement wasn’t drivel (that specific initial one, and only that one).
It just had no point, so what that everyone’s fertility drops?
Women’s to zero (within ~10 years), men’s drops but is still functional for decades after
Holy this girl is still producing word vomit? I don’t check this thing for 2 days and shes written even more dissertations nobody will ever read?
@ybm
You’re back and back to just insulting to insult while evading rationality with shaming language and ad hominens.
So cute.
@YBM
what does the XD mean anyway? eXceptionally Demented, eXcited and Dumb, eXcessive Diatribe, eXtreme Drivel?
I would ask ‘her’, but I’ve never finished reading any of her word-salad comments yet. Come to think of it, she may have already explained XD
20000 words and yet to make a point, that’s “impressive”, even for a feminist.
Late here and had my fun tonight, good night
p.s.
Looks like she gets off on being abused, she came to the right place
@Just1X
My initial statement wasn’t drivel but as I said my followup’s comments were as they were addressing your ad homens, evasion tactics, and irrationality and attempting to be rational by asking wtcupcake did you get your bs.
lmfao @ you claiming I’m stating something then demanding something when you didn’t even read my posts.
Lacking reading comprehension would seem far better than posting without reading then ASSuming and deciding what someone is stating.
Evading attempts at rationality when questioned about your bs would seem far better than just insulting and using shaming language. Both irrational but one is reading what you want the other is not reading and deciding what you want.
The fact that you’re still on my statement has no point is so amusing when I’ve repeatedly told you and even said to look to the post right above you when you asked again.
Let’s look back:
“It’s a correction to me as my statement doesn’t permit yours to mislead others into thinking women’s feritility begins dropping at mid to later thirties.
It shouldn’t be that hard to grasp how others may conclude that as you somehow got ““Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.” to mean I was saying fertility loss was equal without equal being used or fertility loss amounts not being compared.”
I’ve already stated I was here just to laugh at you and ybm’s reactions.
You two are hilariously idiotic
Just1X not even reading then deciding what I’m claiming not once but twice.
YBM being so focused on insulting that he insulted something he said I didn’t do when I had already done it and a commenter had shown proof of that right before his insult.
Especially with this feminist thing you two have going on when I haven’t said I’m one.
Then again ybm stated to him a woman is a feminist because she has a vagina and you seem to be on him..wink wink. Real rational. LMAO XD
its an emoticon. I think its supposed to be someone laughing so hard they are squiniting. Kind of like
😀
is a big smile.
“My initial statement wasn’t drivel but as I said my followup’s comments were”
FINALLY she admits to writing drivel, apart from the initial pointless comment.
Success – Yay!
YBM – thanks for the XD explanation. Boy was I wrong when I thought she had no sense of humour. She’s a laugh a minute (laughing at her, not with her – but by feminist standards, magnificently hilarious)
Duh my follow up comments were drivel they were responses to you & ybm.
“My initial statement wasn’t drivel but as I said my followup’s comments were as they were addressing your ad homens, evasion tactics, and irrationality and attempting to be rational by asking wtcupcake did you get your bs.”
What do you mean finally I stated that from the beginning that I was just amusing myself with you two.
See what not reading & deciding what someone is saying gets you? LMAO XD
Awh but back yourself on the back for whatever you need to justify yourself as a win..lmfao
You with your not reading and deciding what I’m saying & YBM with him being focused on insulting me.
Emotionally reactive nonsensical irrational guys like you are hilariously idiotic.
no, no, no back tracking now dolly.
you came clean with;
“My initial statement wasn’t drivel but as I said my followup’s comments were”
does “you daft moo” work for an american?
It’s not backtracking.
Like I stated I said that from the beginning.
That’s on you not reading that you just now got that.
All you’ve done so far is state my initial statement wasn’t drivel.
It’s not a success when a person states it was drivel to responding to your drivel aka insults, evasions, and attempting rationality with you on two separate pages.
That’s a failure for you…if you’re a rational person.
You’ve clearly shown you’re not..lmfao @ you
So will you be amusing me so more.
Oh do tell how it’s a yay success that someone thinks responding to your drivel is drivel. Your “logic” is so cute.
“My initial statement wasn’t drivel but as I said my followup’s comments were as they were addressing your ad homens, evasion tactics, and irrationality and attempting to be rational by asking wtcupcake did you get your bs.”
Hey at least you’re moving up on your reading.
Rather than not read and decide what you want you’re reading what you want. LMAO XD
Oh better yet:
Tell me how your “logic” got “Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.” to mean I was saying fertility loss was equal without equal being used or fertility loss amounts not being compared.
Tell me how it’s logical to respond to a person’s post with an insult then say they are the one with a bad faith demeanor.
Tell me how it’s logical to continually post without reading what someone is saying but make claims twice on what they are saying…all while missing their questions asking where you get your bs.
Tell me how it’s logical to state a person is backtracking when they said they multiple times on the other page where you insulted first, shame language evaded, and were emotionally reactive they were just amusing themselves with your responses.
LMAO XD
As I said
“FINALLY she admits to writing drivel, apart from the initial pointless comment.”
You: “Women’s fertility drops markedly in their mid to late thirties”
Me: “Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.”
My statement doesn’t permit yours to mislead others into thinking women’s fertility begins dropping at mid to later thirties.
Not that hard to grasp how others may conclude that as you somehow got “Actually both genders fertility drop generally when 23. Men lose quality and women lose quantity. Then when mid to late thirties hit men lose quantity and women lose quality.” to mean I was saying fertility loss was equal without equal being used or fertility loss amounts not being compared.
LMAO XD
So how pointless is it to not read and continually post making claims on what someone is saying not once but twice? LMAO XD
women in general, play very hard to get today. years ago, they were a lot smarter than now. most of them have a very bad attitude, and are very nasty as well. trying to start a conversation with them is very hard, because they will walk away. women have certainly changed over the years, and it will get worse as time goes by. once women’s lib took over, it really messed their head up. psycho’s with an attitude problem.
I am 53, look 35 and have my pick of guys, but yes, getting less and less interested, even couldn’t be bothered going out. I thought something was wrong with me. Maybe not. Maybe tired of being used. I might consider a very rich man, though.
I agree women now a days are messed up in the thinking and emotional area more so than in the past. I would liken it to someone who is instantly given freedom but stands there like a deer in the headlights because he has no idea what to do. Some women think that with society saying that they and men equal that they have gained success! Not only from my observations but from what I heard from women themselves, they have shot themselves in the foot so to say. Not only did they give up being able to stay home, they now suffer the same stress same heart attacks as men have always because of having to compete in the workforce. They have tried so hard to put themselves on the same level as men they now complain that men do not view them as different sweet special creatures like in thier mother’s day. But if course when anything is equal and nothing makes it different from what you are you are not going to appreciate it. Yet women are stupid enough and expect men to treat them as equals and yet be the chivalrous men of their father’s time. Get real men don’t open doors for men! They want the best of both worlds. Welcome it just can’t happen! As they say you can’t have your cake and eat it too! My beleif even though I see it slowly disappearing is that men still try to spoil women, pay for the dates, etc because some and I mean some women still make that free meal a Prerequisite to having sex but that men would do it if women didn’t make it a requirement I doubt it. Women welcome to the society you created for your selves! Happy? I wonder what June Cleaver would say?
@never wrong
In what way do most women play hard to get? In America most women are pretty easy to get in bed as most Americans are pretty loose with casual sex.
In what way were they smarter years ago? Most people’s intelligence have improved from the past with the exception of certain areas as Americans reading and math skills have shown. Do you mean smarter as in easier to get? That doesn’t mean they were happy as depression rates and conversations from married women from that time will show.
“most of them have a very bad attitude, and are very nasty as well ”
In America most people have a bad attitude and are nasty it’s not a gender thing it’s a people thing. The only gender thing that comes into play is how much bitterness men have for women & women have for men.
“trying to start a conversation with them is very hard, because they will walk away.”
While societally rude no one is obligated to talk to you. Some women can walk away and aren’t too bothered by the social conditioning of having to be nice and endure an unwanted intrusion into their time and space to indulge a guy who is most likely really just saying “want some d*ck”.
“women have certainly changed over the years, and it will get worse as time goes by.”
Men and women have changed over the years. As loads of pro-male and pro-female blogs, sites, forums, and chat rooms tending to spew hatred, bitterness, resentment, and distrust it seems it will get worse as time goes on.
“once women’s lib took over, it really messed their head up. psycho’s with an attitude problem.”
I think extremists in women’s lib & people’s reaction to women’s lib messed up society.
Women’s lib meant that women had the same rights as men.
These rights now afforded them to be independent and provide for themselves meaning they no longer had to depend on a man for survival therefore:
they no longer had to accept an y half-decent guy bargaining on their youth/beauty
they no longer had to stay in a relationship they didn’t want because they needed a paycheck
the only reason to be in a relationship with a man was because you wanted him and not because you needed him to survive
@Gerald
Most men & women are suffering more stress and health issues then they had in the past.
I doubt that in the times women stayed at home they were far less stressed than men. The stress levels between the men & women now and then most likely isn’t that wide of a gap. With far less rights, depending on your partner who could rape/beat you and it be swept under the rug, sexual repression, and the rate of depression amongst women the stress levels were likely to be equal to men who had the entire financial burden upon them.
As for the heart bit women were always more likely to suffer heart issues and it wasn’t due to the workforce.
“They have tried so hard to put themselves on the same level as men they now complain that men do not view them as different sweet special creatures like in thier mother’s day.”
Those are the whiners. Some women talk about equality then whine when they don’t get the benefits of traditional stuff like chivalry. Some men talk about equality such as when it comes to finances & paying bills then when whine when they don’t get the benefits of traditional stuff like the slut standard and domestic duties being called women’s work.
That’s to be expected and nothing new as people tend to go with what suits them at the moment.
I also highly doubt that men in those times or any times viewed women as different sweet special creatures. That seems to be reserved for exceptionally beautiful young women who are eager to please men not the general view of the female gender. That general view being women are inferior and worth less than a man.
“Yet women are stupid enough and expect men to treat them as equals and yet be the chivalrous men of their father’s time. Get real men don’t open doors for men!”
Egh that’s some women. Just like some men are stupid enough and expect women to be equal financial contributors & get the same consequences for their actions and yet be domestic ladies, promote the slut standard, and have him “wear the pants” as he’s a man.
“They want the best of both worlds.”
As do men. As do most people. It’s a human thing.
“My beleif even though I see it slowly disappearing is that men still try to spoil women, pay for the dates, etc because some and I mean some women still make that free meal a Prerequisite to having sex but that men would do it if women didn’t make it a requirement I doubt it. ”
WTCupcake? O.O
Where do such men exist? What country are you from? Most men in America from my observations and from what they say don’t pay for sh*t until they are having sex with her and they certainly don’t spoil their gfs/wives because they believe American women are spoiled already.
In fact the men try to bring the women down and insult them so the women get off the pedestal he assumes she was on.
As for a free meal being a prerequisite to having sex..the slut standard prevents most women from having sex with a man they want when they want to. Not sure how f*cking for food is better but that’s society. Or are you talking about a free meal being a date with the whole whoever asks pays policy? Some women don’t f*ck guys they don’t date.
“Women welcome to the society you created for your selves! Happy? I wonder what June Cleaver would say?”
I’m happy with society. The legal system and healthcare could use some work but I ‘m able to provide for myself and be self-sufficient without having to rely on my youth-beauty to bargain for my survival.
June Cleaver would likely only say what pleased her husband.
@udol: maybe our experiences and summations differ because of our backgrounds? I live I’m Miami. Am Latin ( even though I grew up American since my parents came over while I was in diapers. But here in my reality women are as I described. they want to be today’s woman yet want men to those of yesteryear. I dont agree with men and women being equal In the sense of the same. Men and women are no less important than each other but we are different physically, emotionally etc. Men and women are meant to compliement not compete against each other. That’s why women are nuturers and men providers. We were made that way. But yes here were I have to exist women want to be equals but expect men to wine n dine them. Women wanting to be equals is what has lead to men expecting them to be like us, as you stated sluts! Of course I am not saying back in the day it was better but I think today mentality has contributed to higher divorce rates, fewer serious relationships, more unfulfilled people, kids running the streets without parents, the norm being single parents and generation of kids not knowing what a family is and don’t give me society adjusting the thinking to make all these things acceptable substitutions for what is meant to be. I even know men that have sworn women off just as women have sworn men off. It’s a sad reality. So all your justifications are worthless to me and your generalizations are typical of today’s society trying to accept a unnecessary evil.
“”I doubt that in the times women stayed at home they were far less stressed than men. The stress levels between the men & women now and then most likely isn’t that wide of a gap. With far less rights, depending on your partner who could rape/beat you and it be swept under the rug, sexual repression, and the rate of depression amongst women the stress levels were likely to be equal to men who had the entire financial burden upon them.””
———————————————————————-
Oh phooey
A woman who has been beaten or raped which means her husband was of that nature, sure, maybe she was more nervous. but this typical feminist extrapolation that because something could theoretically happen, we paint the male gender with it and then show how that affected ALL the poor dears is bunk.
Never mind that the whole idea about men doing that and not suffering consequences is overstated anyway, other men sorted that stuff out right away.
No, a woman with a good husband who treated her like a precious wife was definitely NOT as stressed as the man w/ the burden of providing. That most men were good, I guess you likely doubt, so steeped in misinformation you seem to be. That there are legal consequences now to abuse, is it gone then? Are women still stressed about it? You may have impeached yourself here with this, claiming on the one hand she had so much stress then, and in another context youd claim she has the exact same stress now, feminism having it both ways YAWN!
@udol:
I’m in FL as well. My observations are that both men & women are like that and those women & men are the whiners.
Whiner women tend to want to be of today but want their partners to be of yesterday…without the parts they dislike of course.
Whiner men tend to want their partners to be both women of today aka share responsibilities/burdens equally and women of yesterday catering, pampering,spoiling, and pleasing him as he “wears the pants”. Essentially they want a partner who does equal work to treat as an subordinate//inferior.
“I dont agree with men and women being equal In the sense of the same.”
I believe men & women being equal in these sense of equal rights & responsibilities & treatment with no one being considered superior/inferior to the other. Pretty clear that human beings aren’t equal some are smarter, more attractive, etc than others so clearly the genders aren’t equal.
“Men and women are meant to compliement not compete against each other.”
Egh I disagree due to the people having different sexual orientations. I’m not on the whole hetero men & hetero women are missing puzzle pieces or whatever. Nor and I on the whole hetero women need men and hetero men need women. For me it’s more like hetero women want men and hetero men want women.
“That’s why women are nuturers and men providers. We were made that way.”
More like society and cultures are structured that way to me.
To me it’s not a gender thing to provide as self-sufficiency is providing for one self. Nor is it a gender thing to nurture as plenty of fathers and want to be fathers I know would take dislike to that.
“But yes here were I have to exist women want to be equals but expect men to wine n dine them.”
Yeah they are called the whiners. People tend to expect others to do what serves them and want the best of however many worlds they can get.
“Women wanting to be equals is what has lead to men expecting them to be like us, as you stated sluts!”
Egh most people are sluts or want to be. If there were no stds and fear of rape pretty sure more people would be jumping on the free love train.
I don’t think the mentality contributed to higher divorce rates as much as women being able to divorce with far less fear of providing for themselves as they don’t need a man to survive and society being more accepting of divorce than in those times.
I think the get it now and self centeredness of American society has contributed to fewer relationships not the slut mentality.
My belief is that society as it progresses tends to have more unfilled people than it did in the past.
“the norm being single parents and generation of kids not knowing what a family is and don’t give me society adjusting the thinking to make all these things acceptable substitutions for what is meant to be.”
What exactly do you think is meant to be? for me it’s healthy & happy parental units or a parental unit financially, mentally, and emotionally capable of raising a child or children.
“I even know men that have sworn women off just as women have sworn men off. It’s a sad reality. So all your justifications are worthless to me and your generalizations are typical of today’s society trying to accept a unnecessary evil.”
The only thing that could be considered a justification is my statement that whiners wanting both of best worlds is just human beings tend to go for what suits them at the moment. Not really a justification as I haven’t approved or said the behavior is correct more like an explanation.
Exactly what other justifications do you think I’ve made? As I haven’t made any statement about behaviors being correct/acceptable.
Thank you! Here feminist justification of worst case to justify women’s attitudes today is BS! There us no way that you can convience me that women had the same stress before that they have today. Maybe her views are because she was in an abusive relationship herself and now she wants to label all men even the good ones as such. Women having more heart attacks and stress related dieseases are Attributual to today’s lifestyle and there quest to be equals. Again welcome to a mans world. All of today’s down fall is the result of feminism. She will say she is happy being able to provide for herself rather than having to depending on a man. Right! Lol. If men’s attitudes towards women have changed is because women want to be viewed as men and we know how men are with men and women complain that we treat them equally? Were I’m from women dinwant the best if both worlds because they recognize that even though they want to be equals they also know they gave up a gpod thing in being cared for by a decent guy. And no here no woman reaches for her purse when the check hits the table.
@empatholoficalism
So a woman is who is beaten/raped by her husband who she is dependent on for survival in a society where she has less rights and divorced is frowned upon would only be nervous…o.O
I would think being dependent on another person for survival would be some form of stress as well as having less rights.
Completely unfathomable and only feminist thinking to suggest that she could be stressed. O.O
Just because it theoretically could happen doesn’t mean all/most of the male gender is painted with the action. Women can rape men, men can rape women, women can rape women, and men can rape men. It doesn’t mean all/most human beings are painted as rapists. It just means some individuals can do such a thing.
To get seems to suggest that you have an issue with the concept that men who can do bad things exist and are one of the types who believe majority of men are good and only a minuscule minority are bad.
Egh not my view more like men & women are good and bad no majority/ minority view.
“other men sorted that stuff out right away”
Egh not really. I’ve talked to loads of women from that time.
Do recall marital rape wasn’t even looked at as a crime in the majority of those times so it wasn’t even something wrong to be sorted out. In the past domestic abuse, child abuse, and icnest were swept under the rug more than they are now.
” No, a woman with a good husband who treated her like a precious wife was definitely NOT as stressed as the man w/ the burden of providing.”
Egh not many women had that. Not many women have that now. Back then the general view as certainly more women are inferior.
“That most men were good, I guess you likely doubt, so steeped in misinformation you seem to be.”
Yes I doubt that. I don’t do majority good men/minority bad men or majority good women/minority bad women. I think it’s an equal a balance and I judge based on individuals.
The only groups I do majority good/minority bad or vice versa are groups that have standards for their behaviors. Like to me the KKK is majority bad.
“That there are legal consequences now to abuse, is it gone then? ”
Legal consequences doesn’t mean people stop doing it.
“Are women still stressed about it?”
Most likely only if they are currently abused/raped .
They’re not likely to stress because now women can:
press charges as it’s not a sweep under the rug thing as much as before.
divorce as it’s less frowned upon and there’s far less fear on how will they survive as they don’t need a man to provide for them.
There are now different things for the genders to stress about. With progress comes new stresses.
“You may have impeached yourself here with this, claiming on the one hand she had so much stress then, and in another context youd claim she has the exact same stress now, feminism having it both ways YAWN!”
I didn’t impeach myself because that’s not what I claimed.
No that’s what you read or wanted to read.
“The stress levels between the men & women now and then most likely isn’t that wide of a gap. ”
Exactly the same is nowhere in there.
What I stated was the stress levels between men and women most likely aren’t that wide of a difference from then and now. Such as women then stress level was 6 men’s 8 and women now stress level is 5 and men’s 7. Not that wide of a gap between then and now.
Your babel is exactly what I am stating that is a result of today’s mentality. Yes I will give you that today’s society is self centered and selfish and each gender is out for whatever suits them without regard for what is beneficial to thier partner or the relationship as an US! I can go back as far as the caveman to show that equality as in the same didn’t exist. Men were hunters and women nurturers. Men And women complimented each other and came together as one. Try taking yourself out of the feminist today societal thinking pattern and even sit and talk to women who grew up back in the day and listen to thier opinion and I will guarantee that although they like the fact that women are given a choice today that they did sacrifice big time to get it. Are men and women whiners? Maybe? But again it’s attributal to todays mentality. Women want men to be like those of yesteryear and men have taken the attitude because of feminism to say, hey your my equal why should I spoil, treat, or behave with you any differently than I do with other men, you want to make as much money as undo then cough up an equal share when the bill comes to the table. Why should I provide, didn’t you want to be the same?
@ pixie:.
“In what way were they smarter years ago?”
In the past we were “smarter” because society generally followed our biological gender roles. A few quirks notwithstanding, it worked far better than the feminist denial of human nature. Feminism thinks we can and should choose and define our gender roles according to our whims.
“In America most people have a bad attitude and are nasty it’s not a gender thing it’s a people thing.”
Not a gender thing? Are you blind? Try watching TV for an hour without seeing a “good-natured, non-malicious” portrayal of men as bumbling idiots. It’s a horrible attitude, disguised as subtle humor. You don’t even notice it because it’s not “rude.”
“Women’s lib meant that women had the same rights as men.”
Bahahahahaha! You’re trolling, aren’t you? When women won the right to vote, to own property, and to be educated, they had the same rights as men. Then they promptly voted themselves more rights than any man will ever have. “Women’s lib” means women can play at acting like men right up until it’s time to pay the piper. Then it’s men and “society” (productive people, mostly men) who write the check.
“In fact the men try to bring the women down and insult them so the women get off the pedestal he assumes she was on.”
If she’s female, in the West, she IS on a pedestal. See above.
“‘That’s why women are nuturers and men providers. We were made that way.’
More like society and cultures are structured that way to me.”
*to me*
There it is. Your ignorance is showing. “Society” and “cultures” have survived in a hostile world BECAUSE of inborn gender roles. Society did not create male behaviors and female behaviors. male behaviors and female behaviors created society. We would be extinct without them.
@suz, her comments are her justification for women roles viewed through today’s feminist glasses. That you for labeling correctly, men and women had biological roles that didn’t demean either of the genders. It is how we were cellularly and biologically. It worked the same way that a car cannot move without fuel. Each on it’s own doesn’t work, together they function. Now a days both genders want to be the car with the exception that most women still want men to provide the fuel!
@Gerald
Once again…exactly where/when have I been justifying womens attitude?
“The only thing that could be considered a justification is my statement that whiners wanting both of best worlds is just human beings tend to go for what suits them at the moment. Not really a justification as I haven’t approved or said the behavior is correct more like an explanation.
Exactly what other justifications do you think I’ve made? As I haven’t made any statement about behaviors being correct/acceptable.”
@Gerald
“There us no way that you can convience me that women had the same stress before that they have today. ”
No on ewas trying to…o.O
Perhaps you should read what’s there not what you want.
“The stress levels between the men & women now and then most likely isn’t that wide of a gap. ”
Women having the same stress as before is nowhere in there.
In fact I was even comparing the stress of women then and now. I was comparing the difference of stress between men * women then and now.
“What I stated was the stress levels between men and women most likely aren’t that wide of a difference from then and now. Such as women then stress level was 6 men’s 8 and women now stress level is 5 and men’s 7. Not that wide of a gap between then and now.”
@Gerald
1. “Maybe her views are because she was in an abusive relationship herself and now she wants to label all men even the good ones as such. ”
Maybe you’re just ASSuming because you don’t like what you’re hearing *
Not sure how stating that women were likely to be stressed in a time when they depended on men for survival, divorce was frowned upon, and marital rape wasn’t illegal, and domestic abuse was swept under the rug far more then it is now is indication of having been in an abusive relationship.
I find that discrediting the person rather than the opinion/words is fairly common.
I thought it was just whiner men who claimed feminist/feminazi when a women did/said something they didn’t like. It seems more like it’s most men. While whiner women claim misogynistic/chauvinistic when a man does/says something they don’t like and most women claim unmanly/sissy.
2. “Women having more heart attacks and stress related dieseases are Attributual to today’s lifestyle and there quest to be equals. ”
Where is the evidence that women are having more heart attacks now then they were in the past?
There is far more evidence showing that most doctors overlook women’s heart problems.
3. “Again welcome to a mans world. All of today’s down fall is the result of feminism.”
Yeah blaming failures on women for getting equal rights & treatment seem to be common amongst men. I don’t say responsibilities due to the draft bit. Seems like most men dislike having to treat women equally and think it means society downfall if women have the same amount of rights & treatment & responsibilities. While whiner men want an partner who does equal work to treat as a subordinate it seems most hetero men want a subordinate but claim they are treating her fairly.
4. ” She will say she is happy being able to provide for herself rather than having to depending on a man. Right! Lol.”
Why is that so laughable? I doubt most people would enjoy depending on another person for survival.
5. “If men’s attitudes towards women have changed is because women want to be viewed as men and we know how men are with men and women complain that we treat them equally?”
Ah evading responsibility and shifting blame. It’s like saying if “this group is bad it’s only because of that group.”
People change because society/culture has changed yes other’s have an affect but it’s rarely the main or sole reason.
6..” Were I’m from women dinwant the best if both worlds because they recognize that even though they want to be equals they also know they gave up a gpod thing in being cared for by a decent guy. And no here no woman reaches for her purse when the check hits the table.”
Where I’m from most people want the best of both worlds but only the whiners expect & demand it.
You’re assuming that in those days these would have been good men taking care of them and that they would have been treated. If these were such good times then marital rape would have been illegal or at the very least seen as possible
If you want women who pay not just fake reach for the check then check out Fort Lauderdale..
@udolpixie, to you an explanation? But isn’t an explanation the same as a justification? Your entire “explanation” is trying to justify were society is in regards to biological gender roles and human perceptions of what is occurring and progressing towards in our society which is non committed relationships, cyborg minded individuals ie: non emotional commitments, a society of individuals because the race will fail to find a reason to mesh except to procreate via test tube situation (which is occurring now), and babies that are raised by the state (isn’t that what is occurring since parenting by two has been essentially lost?). Humans have lost in their quest for their individuality the essence of what is meant by living. To form emotional committed unions for the purpose of emotionally stable beings and families. Again men and women are equal in the mind frame of humanity but each has a biological role that compliements each other. That we are losing and will be lost if we continue on this path. I offer no other proof as to have look at each generation after our grand parents and you will see the slow desinigration of an emotionally connected society. The grater good is no longer in our vocabulary but what’s in it for me mentality has taken hold. So don’t justify that today’s society is better off than that of our grand parents. Did bad things happen then and now of course nothing is perfect and their was also those who were socially deviant but that now society is better off please! Step out of your box and look at the world today as it compares to before
“Gerald: @suz, her comments are her justification for women roles viewed through today’s feminist glasses.”
She doesn’t even know the glasses exist, or that the world would look different without them. I’m pretty sure she’s just whining for attention like a tag-along kid. She’s written pages and pages of comments harping on minutiae, so she can finally declare victory, “See? I was right! I win!” I don’t think she understands most of the conversation, but she sure knows how she feels about it.
“Your babel”
Perhaps it wouldn’t be babel if you read what’s there rather than what you wanted.
As you have shown by saying I’m justifying behavior when I haven’t made any approval/acceptance of any behavior.
As you have shown by saying I’m claiming women’s stress levels are the same from my statement ““The stress levels between the men & women now and then most likely isn’t that wide of a gap. “. A statement that compares the difference of stress between men & women then and now not women’s stress then and now.
“Yes I will give you that today’s society is self centered and selfish and each gender is out for whatever suits them without regard for what is beneficial to thier partner or the relationship as an US! ”
You don’t have to give me that since it’s a general truth but okay then….o.O
“I can go back as far as the caveman to show that equality as in the same didn’t exist.”
Of course it didn’t exist. Women were physically weaker and the weak usually get less rights and/or oppressed.
“Men were hunters and women nurturers. Men And women complimented each other and came together as one.”
Egh that doesn’t prove that men & women complimented each other and came together.
That proves women had less rights & treatment and that each gender had a role.
“Try taking yourself out of the feminist today societal thinking pattern and even sit and talk to ”
Egh perhaps try taking yourself out of reading what you want and automatically ASSuming feminism when I haven’t mentioned it or brought it up. Nor stated I was a feminist or.
Or are you doing how men tend to do if a woman is saying/doing something I don’t like it’s feminist?
How is it feminist thinking pattern to state a person who depends on another person for survival that if they leave it’d be frowned up and who may rape/abuse them with one act not even being illegal and the other likely to be swept under the rug may be stressed?
How is it feminist thinking pattern to state people tend to want the best of however many worlds they can get?
Why are you still arguing with this harpy? There are far better things to do with one’s time. Don’t forget, she’s got cats to feed.
and talk to women who grew up back in the day and listen to thier opinion and I will guarantee that although they like the fact that women are given a choice today that they did sacrifice big time to get it.
This statement right there shows you were just reading what you wanted not what was there.
In what you called my babel I put I did talk to loads women of those days.
Recall when a commenter stated other men would have sorted out that type of stuff aka rape/abuse:
“Egh not really. I’ve talked to loads of women from that time.”
“Women want men to be like those of yesteryear and men have taken the attitude because of feminism to say, hey your my equal why should I spoil, treat, or behave with you any differently than I do with other men, you want to make as much money as undo then cough up an equal share when the bill comes to the table. Why should I provide, didn’t you want to be the same?”
Some women have taken that attitude.
Most men have correctly taken the attitude of I shouldn’t treat you better because you’re a woman. However they’ve also added their own contradictory strings wanting a partner to do equal work/contribute equally but to treat as a subordinate and “wear the pants” A
To me in outside of parental relationships no one should provide for another they should provide for each other. Most men get that. Some women get that.
To me no one should be doing equal work only to be treated unequally/inferiorly because of their gender. Most women get that. Some men get that as evident by the “I wear the pants as I’m a man but we both contribute as we’re equals’
I still say your views are tainted, why I can’t say and I will not generalize be ause i dont know younor your past but your repeated obsession with marital rape resounds with each posting. You continue to assume that I am stating that that women depended on men to survive. Read my statement what I am stating is women depended on men to provide financially as in the same that men depended on women to do their part of the cohesive union. Men and women depended on each other! Read again I said men were not better than women and women are were not better then men but together compliemented each other. I agree their was some good in the women’s (notice I’m not saying feminist) movement and the initial reasons were valid. Women should be able to vote, express their opinions, and yes work (because we know how tough it is to make it today on one salary) and men should help around the house if the woman is working. But that women have turned the ” Women’s Movement” into the “Feminist Movement” and it’s the feminist movement that has caused the societal changes I am referring to
“Yeah blaming failures on women for getting equal rights & treatment seem to be common amongst men. ”
Pix, get this through your skull:
Because of feminism, women have MORE rights and FEWER responsibilities than men.
Say it out loud:
“Because of feminism, women have MORE rights and FEWER responsibilities than men.”
Now say it out loud again:
“Because of feminism, women have MORE rights and FEWER responsibilities than men.”
Every single opinion you have is coming from a mind that doesn’t believe or even comprehend this fact:
“Because of feminism, women have MORE rights and FEWER responsibilities than men.”
In light of this fact, nearly everything you have said here this week is either untrue or irrelevant. Yet you keep hammering away.
“Because of feminism, women have MORE rights and FEWER responsibilities than men.”
Annoying, isn’t it?
Udol is fully and completely thriving in the narcissism of personal experience…”thats not true cause I never saw that”….”not true, i talked to women from that time”…..”to me”….all anecdotes, not only are the rationally NOT evidence, they show the deficit in abstract thinking ability.
If anything she is telling what we already know, until a woman realizes this handicap and then attempts to reason around it, she will spew anecdotal nonsense and it is useless discourse
@Suz
1. “In the past we were “smarter” because society generally followed our biological gender roles. ”
Following biology may not always be the smart or smartest thing to do.
2. “A few quirks notwithstanding, it worked far better than the feminist denial of human nature. ”
I’ve yet to see outside of extremists deny human nature. Perhaps feminism deny what most men claim to be is human nature for the genders.
3. “Feminism thinks we can and should choose and define our gender roles according to our whims.”
That’s feminism…I thought that was American society as most people tend to do that.
4. “In America most people have a bad attitude and are nasty it’s not a gender thing it’s a people thing.” Not a gender thing? Are you blind? Try watching TV for an hour without seeing a “good-natured, non-malicious” portrayal of men as bumbling idiots.
American TV sh*ts on everyone. There’s few good natured non malicious portrayal of women.
it’s ironic it sh*ts on every group but always places each on their own pedestal.
However I was talking about people’s attitude and treatment of each other not media portrayal.
5. It’s a horrible attitude, disguised as subtle humor. You don’t even notice it because it’s not “rude.”
Egh I notice when racism and sexism are apparent in the media. I’ve notice the bad portrayal of both genders. To me it’s not rude just unfortunate. What’s rude is people’s treatement of each other.
6. “Women’s lib meant that women had the same rights as men.” Bahahahahaha! You’re trolling, aren’t you? When women won the right to vote, to own property, and to be educated, they had the same rights as men.
Thanks to women’s lib and the women and men behind them. So women’s lib did do what it was meant for.
Not all women in the world have those rights so women’s lib works in those places.
7. Then they promptly voted themselves more rights than any man will ever have.
How? What more rights are you walking about?
Only thing I’ve seen is lack of responsibility with the draft.
I’ve yet to see any new law created supported by women’s lib giving women more rights than men outside of abortion.
@Suz
” Your ignorance is showing. “Society” and “cultures” have survived in a hostile world BECAUSE of inborn gender roles. ”
Your ignorance is showing as surviving doesn’t mean it was happy or healthy. Just that it survived.
Slavery helped the South to survive and there were race roles however it wasn’t happy or healthy.
“Society did not create male behaviors and female behaviors. male behaviors and female behaviors created society. We would be extinct without them.”
Society does reinforce which behaviors are acceptable and not.
Since male & female behavior create society then female & male behavior helped create this society so why the whole uproar and saying now it’s denying human nature. Seems quite like the slave owners uproar and saying it’s denying racial natures to free the slaves.
Gerald, her views ARE tainted, and she doesn’t even know it. As long as she engages us, she “wins.” FH is right. What’s the name for that thing in baseball, where they verbally distract the batter in an effort to make him choke? You know, “Hey, batter-batter-batter SWING!”
@Gerald.
” her comments are her justification for women roles viewed through today’s feminist glasses.”
Once again.
Show me where/when I justified any behaviors.
I haven’t made any moral decisions on any behaviors.
So I haven’t approved/accepted or disapproved any.
Recall once more again:
The only thing that could be considered a justification is my statement that whiners wanting both of best worlds is just human beings tend to go for what suits them at the moment. Not really a justification as I haven’t approved or said the behavior is correct more like an explanation.
Exactly what other justifications do you think I’ve made? As I haven’t made any statement about behaviors being correct/acceptable.
“It worked the same way that a car cannot move without fuel. Each on it’s own doesn’t work, together they function. Now a days both genders want to be the car with the exception that most women still want men to provide the fuel!”
Some women. The whiners.
No different than the men who want the women to contribute to the car’s finances but have him be the only ones to drive it because he’s man so he’s in charge despite both doing equal work.
@suz. I agree she is so caught up in her “marital rape” senerio that she can’t see that I am not putting down women or men but trying to get her to take off the “oh poor me” attitude and see things as a whole not emotionally but hence she is a female and can only particpate if it’s using their personal experience or as stated by someone else in the blog “if it didn’t happen to me it could not be” mentality. I cannot continue to re word my comments so she can vrap what I’m trying to state!!!!
Ah yes. Because “happy” and “healthy” are so much more important than food and shelter.
Now I get it. Are you, like, um, sixteen? ‘Cause you live, like, a very, so totally, sheltered life if you have managed to reach, you know, adulthood in such naivete. TTYL! (Not)
Yep. She’s a troll. Is it just me, or are her comments so convoluted and illogical that I had to read them twice to even understand what she was trying to say? And reading them ONCE was plenty painful. Just1x had the right idea.
Um, udolipixie? Haven’t you got more important things to do? Like saving the rainforests or poor Somalian children, the Planet perhaps? Really now, your time being well spent is far more important to Humanities survival, I implore you, stop this inane insanity now.
Reach into that vast well of female intuition and live your life free from the trappings of men. Show us that a woman such as yourself is truly done with men! Show us by not commenting.
AND for shame women, there are cats at stake for heaven’s sake! Just you being here has placed them on the extinction list. Whatever will millions of spinsters around the Western World do without those furry critters!? Have you no shame?!
@suz, your right she cannot even stand her ground. She goes from stating that her comments are explanations were in my book explanations are justification, ie, this is because of that! Justifications! she sees only the minority of injustices that have always existed and uses them to “explain” why feminism has been good for society. She blames us for ASSuming but she fails to comprehend what we are stating. Let’s allow her to ride the pity wagon all the way back to her reality of apparent marital rape, association with men who apparently expect her to cough up on paying the bill and still doing more work than the man? My reading and reasearch has shown the opposite. Society has given more rights to women other the basics of voting, speech, etc and what you read is men having to adjust down to what women expect and she complains that we are holding them to the standard they requested, you want to be equal than be equal. Do as I do
“7. Then they promptly voted themselves more rights than any man will ever have.
***How? What more rights are you walking about”***
OM(f)G!!! Can anybody believe she just asked that? Wow.
time to talk to the hand, or whatever conveyance of “go ‘way kid ya bother me” you prefer.
the rambling posts, the way the quotes are inserted, the anecdotal claims, it is nearly impossible to follow anyway.
I really do not think there is any danger of anyone being swayed by her, so………
Offer crickets
Oh my goodness, the post on slavery and surviving is so bad I cannot believe anyone processes information that way. Well, yes I can…..
Does she have a blog? HEY! You got a blog? Invite us over, er, fer dinner…..serve ya’self cause you have been eaten alive anyway rhetorically and forensically speaking.
This degree of stuck on stupid is not able to be engaged.
@Gerald
1. “to you an explanation? But isn’t an explanation the same as a justification? ”
To me an explaining the behavior is not accepting or approving it.
An explanation that accepts, condones or approves the behavior is a justification to me.
2. “Your entire “explanation” is trying to justify were society is in regards to biological gender roles”
Egh no.
My explanation that you claimed was a justification had nothing to do with biological gender roles.
I stated people tend to do what suits them at the moment something you took for justifying some women’s bad behavior. Not sure how that has anything to do with justifying society in regards to biological gender roles.
3. “Did bad things happen then and now of course nothing is perfect and their was also those who were socially deviant but that now society is better off please! ”
Where/when did I state that society was better now then it was in the past. I stated it progressed. The amount of bad/good now and then is still pretty much on level just with different things.
@Suz
“She doesn’t even know the glasses exist, or that the world would look different without them.”
I know many types of glasses exist. Victomhood classes are common.
Men thinking they are the poor victims and women are high up on pedestals and anyone who says different is a feminist/feminazi or not in reality.
Women thinking they are the poor victims and men are their enemies and anyone who says different is a misogynist or chauvinistic and not in reality.
Yeah I don’t wear those glasses.
“I’m pretty sure she’s just whining for attention like a tag-along kid. She’s written pages and pages of comments harping on minutiae, so she can finally declare victory, “See? I was right! I win!” I don’t think she understands most of the conversation, but she sure knows how she feels about it.”
I’m pretty sure most of you are just reading what you want.
The whole harping on the minutiae just to finally declare victory seems to be more of other commenters on this blog than me. In fact one commenter even stated “Yay! Success!” after he first responded to me with an insult on 2 separate pages, evaded all my questions on how he got what he stated I was claiming with shaming language & more insults, and then stated he wasn’t even reading what I was saying when he declared I was claiming stuff not once but twice.
Exactly what is this minutiae that I’m harping on?
@Feminist Hater
Probably the same reason you felt compelled to comment about me and insult me.
Emotional reaction overriding logic.
“Don’t forget, she’s got cats to feed.”
No cats. Nothing wrong with people who do have them. The sad old cat lady cliche seems to be quite unhealthy as plenty of girls I know have gotten into relationships with guys because they didn’t want to be frowned upon by society for being alone.
Those relationships weren’t healthy or happy for either parties.
Nice ad hominens.
@Bubbles12
Are you saying you’re tired of being used so you’ll use or that only a certain standard is worth it enough for your attention now?
@Gerald
“Read my statement what I am stating is women depended on men to provide financially as in the same that men depended on women to do their part of the cohesive union. Men and women depended on each other! ”
I already read that.
Recall:
“To me it’s not a gender thing to provide as self-sufficiency is providing for one self. Nor is it a gender thing to nurture as plenty of fathers and want to be fathers I know would take dislike to that.”
For men & women needing each other.
Recall:
“Egh I disagree due to the people having different sexual orientations. I’m not on the whole hetero men & hetero women are missing puzzle pieces or whatever. Nor and I on the whole hetero women need men and hetero men need women. For me it’s more like hetero women want men and hetero men want women.”
@Gerald
“but your repeated obsession with marital rape resounds with each posting.”
Stating all/most men rape or will rape would be indicative of my past.
Showing distrust, victimhood clinging, getting emotional over it, or mentioning git when it bears no relevancy would be indicative of my past.
Stating that a woman in those times had those situations and would have some stress is not past indicative.
But cool on the playing therapist and more reading what you want.
It’s not an obsession to when the context is that’s a situation women had in the past and that would induce some stress.
The context was women’s stress in the past. My stance was women in those times had a stressful environment with being dependent for survival on a partner in a society where you has less rights, divorced is frowned upon, and rape by your partner wasn’t illegal, and abuse from you partner was usually swept under.
@pixie, She is too circular in her mushroom induced logic or maybe she has been inhaling kitty litter fumes. “To me an explaining the behavior is not accepting or approving it”. First she off offers “explanations” for everything in her comments and then retracts by saying she is not approving or disapproving of anything she states thus, since she is not approving or disapproving they are not justifications? What? Then why comment if you have no opinion. do you spew rhetoric just to spew. No one states or comments unless they are of their own opinion or lets say they shouldn’t. Oh wait, maybe your a politician spewing rhetoric because they feel thats what everyone wants to hear? I’m done. Trying to find logic and reasoning with her is out of the question as you per your own admission “on the fence”. then to her biological roles which no one can deny if you take away today deviant and self serving attitudes of wanting to be who they want to be and recognizing that gender roles do exist is totally denied in her what is it again, explanation, justification, stating something off the cuff with no opinion? Finally, “To me it’s not a gender thing to provide as self-sufficiency is providing for one self. Nor is it a gender thing to nurture as plenty of fathers and want to be fathers I know would take dislike to that.” Get off it. Your trying to rationalize based on today’s feminist thought patterns. I am positive that in those days women did not feel they were subservient as they were only fulfilling their biological roles as did their mothers and grandmothers, and men did not provide thinking hah I’m superior. No men provided because they felt it was their role and both new they were nurturing the family. They knew their roles in the family and it worked. Yes of course Pixie, their were the off shoots, the deviants, but you generalize and even with your last post bring up again, marital rape as if it was a common everyday occurrence. Poor you. When you decide that you do have an opinion and are justifying your thoughts and reasoning. Please post.for now the bucket is full and not another drop of spew will fit.
Dude. I am impressed. How on earth did you manage to grasp even that much of what she said? You must be exhausted. I posted this on another article, but it was meant for this one:
@suz, I don’t if I even grasped it. Did it seem that way? Must have been that bang g of my head in the wall trying to even chew what she was spewing! She is the typical feminist and the reason women have become droids or hamsters like you so eloguently stated! She has an opinion on everything but wait it’s not an opinion because she only stated but didn’t agree or disagree, is that the way it works? Have you ever heard Anything like that before? Lets hope she only has a cat and not a man who has his finger on the trigger of a 45 pointed at his head.
@Suz
“Just1x had the right idea.”
you just made my day. BTW I was NOT kidding about not reading her posts.
@Dolly,
in all seriousness, please search out some help. I’m not having a dig at you (this time). As one human being to another, find someone qualified to talk to face to face. I know that I played with you from the start, but others here have come to the same conclusion through good faith discussion.
I am a 55 year old woman who has been divorced for 9 years. While we were still married, my ex-husband met a woman on the internet who he married 2 months after our divorce. He is now on marriage #3 with an infant at 54. I carried around the hurt of abandonment & betrayal for about 5 years & worked on improving my life. We both made mistakes & I take responsibility mine. I was married for 17 years & hadn’t dated since my 20’s. When I got back out there, thing were so different with internet dating & not looking like that young woman in my 20’s any longer. In spite of the way my marriage ended, I never was hostile toward men. I’ve dated off & on & had one serious relationship since my divorce. I made mistakes along the way & met some men who weren’t so nice & some who were. However, in spite of a lot of the generalizations going on here….I still remain positive about meeting someone special & I still love sex too. I do have friends, get out socially, work, have a full life & that’s a good thing! While I still feel lonely at times, I have grown as a person & really blossomed since my divorce.
Regarding all of the negative talk about feminism, my mother was divorced with 4 children in the early 60’s & received no child support & was not a feminist. We struggled, but managed when mom went to work in factories before the wages were good. Learning to be self-sufficient came from that experience, not feminism. My sister-in-law was a traditional stay at home mom of 4 when my brother died at 41 & she had to learn to become self-sufficient. It doesn’t mean that we don’t want or need a man in our life b/c we are capable of taking care of ourselves. The desire for companionship, love & affection still exists for many of us, but we’re not going to stop living & enjoying life because those opportunites are less as we age.
Interesting discussion. Me – Female, age 50, never married, no children. Worked to support my self since high school – still working – still live alone. In a long term relationship (11 yrs and counting). Observation about the male I am partnered with: who needs children when you have one of these! I am extremely independent as I have always counted on my self to take care of my self. I guess it baffles me to see a grown man acting like a two year old when things don’t go as he wants them to. Or to see a grown man acting like a 16 year old who “knows it all” and thinks he is smarter than every one else – but still needs to be taken care of – like a child. Perhaps in 5 years, I will be finally tired of taking care of a child that never grows up and want to leave too. Anyway – I love him – we all have our faults and peculiarities. After all – in his eyes I am a complete idiot and at times a “waste of skin” and deserve to be “punched in the head”. (Reminds me of the two year old shouting at his mom “mommy bad – I hate mommy!” when he doesn’t get what he wants when he wants it.) I’m sure if he knew better, he would do better – but the 16 yr old ‘know it all’ prevents further learning. So, if this relationship comes to an end – I won’t be looking for a replacement. In the mean time – we do have a lot of fun together. And I will continue to try to set a good example of how to deal with life’s frustrations and disappointments with maturity and a sense of humor (which usually doesn’t go down very well). I guess I can’t expect him to deal with frustrations the same way as I do, just a he can’t expect me to go into a rage every time things don’t go my way. We are all different.
Hey tanya,
Can you explain how your boyfriend is like a child? Also how does need caring like a child?
Also what do you mean not looking for a replacement? Are you done with men, or just not attractive enough to find a man?
I also find it interesting you’ve been with a child for over 11 years … cant an extremely independent woman find a man who isnt a child?
I applaud your maturity for staying with a child for over 11 years … most mature adults stay with immature children for over 11 years, especially women … Im sure your mature decision to stay with a child has nothing to do with being extremely independent …
i am a straight man, that certainly has to agree with this. i was married at one time, and i was a very caring and loving husband, that never cheated on her. she cheated on me and had the nerve to say to me that she wanted an open marriage. i told her to get the hell out of my life, you filthy whore. and i knew the man that she cheated on me with. i was certainly the committed one in the relationship, and had hoped to have a family that i wanted at the time. and i did love her very much at the time that i was married to her. now, being in my late fifties makes it very difficult too meet women again for me. i have noticed that many of them have an attitude problem, and are just to nasty to talk too. not to mention, they play very hard too get now. many of them, have just become so rotten now. there are a lot of women now that lesbians, and what human waste that they are. it is obviously why, so many straight men like us will certainly have a problem meeting straight now. it is so very sad, that many women cannot make it with a man. what losers.
most of the women out there now are very uneducated, which certainly complicates things today. there are a lot of us straight men today over the age of 55 that are having a very hard time meeting women. it is hard because of are age, especially after being married for such a long time before. women have become very nasty, and many of them now have an attitude problem that i have noticed. there are many women that i cannot even talk too, because they just do not want to be bothered at all. so yes, after the age of 55, women do not really want to bother with men anymore. but if they have a lot of money, women will certainly take advantage of them.
I am not responding to any one individual. I could have stayed bitter after my divorce, but I made the decision to work on improving myself & look at the mistakes that I made. It’s easy to lump all people of the opposite sex together, but the reality is that we’re all different. Some men & women, no matter what their circumstances, make the decision to work on living a contented life. Life hasn’t been easy for most of us after divorce. I am a postiive, hard working 55 year old woman who will continue to enjoy life with family & friends & as well as date & find a special someone if the opportunity exits. We all need to take responsibility for ourselves & how that impacts other people. For those of you who appear so bitter & hostile, perhaps your own attitudes are keeping your from meeting & connecting with those of the opposite sex. Even under the best of circumstances, dating isn’t easy, but working on our own issues, participating in activities that interest you & having a support system of family & friends can add joy to our lives if we allow it to happen.
(I didn’t catch my typos in my prior post until I sent it) Just to add to my last post, I know this blog focuses on woman 55 & over & relationships, but there are so many people here that seem to be taking their bitterness out on a whole population of human beings. I never forgot Ann Landers words, “staying angry with someone is like letting them live rent free in your head.” After divorce, lots of us are hurt & angry and that’s normal. However, if you don’t work through it with counseling or find a way to move past those feelings, it will carry over into every aspect of your life. So, I do hope you can eventually find peace in your hearts & the ability to move forward & live life with zest! If I can do it, anyone can! It’s not about having lots of money, a perfect body or a beautiful face. It simply starts with changing your attitude & learning to forgive yourself, your ex & those who have impacted your life in a negative way. Life isn’t perfect, but I’ve had to work hard at be with the living, instead of getting sucked into that black hole of negativity & depression for the rest of my life. Carpe Diem!
Enjoy your cats spinster.
I’m having too much fun to be a spinster! Life is good!
nice try rmaxd, can see what you were aiming for.
Tanya, you virtuous angel, you. Why not leave him, let him enjoy his final decades in peace and quiet? You can be certain that he’ll pine for you – but don’t you take him back, you soft hearted dream woman you…if only there were two of you, so I could live the dream too
Happy @ 55,
I too, am a “positive” person who thinks forward an tries not to dwell on past pain, and I understand your sentiments about the anger (and in some cases, utterly disillusioned bitterness) in the Manosphere. When I came here, I immediately realized however, something that may not have occurred to you yet: You and I speak from a secure position of privilege. As women, we have had countless forums in which to vent our emotions, throughout our entire lives. We’ve had our girlfriends, our mothers, our sisters, our coworkers, magazines, books, Oprah & Phil (and their ilk) to help us analyze our anger, and strategize out futures. For the past fifty years, men have had no such support structures; apparently they are presumed to not need it. Until the advent of the internet, feminism had silenced men. Women have infiltrated all of their “separate” activities, and told them that their opinions and feelings are invalid. Five decades of pent-up frustration is coming out now, and you can bet your last dollar there’s bitterness here. There is also hope, advice, compassion, community, and sound logical principles that nobody has been allowed to mention for years. Men come here and find the truth. Then they wondered why nobody told them this truth BEFORE they were eviscerated by the women they loved. Of course they’re angry!
You have just tripped over the elephant under the rug, you’ve made eye contact with the 800 pound gorilla in the room. What you are seeing has existed all along, but we have all been trying not to notice it. We’ve been hoping it will go away because it just doesn’t match the furniture. That furniture was put there by feminism, and the moving van has arrived.
@ Suz, I am all for personal expression, venting & getting anger out of ones system, but many of the myopic viewpoints expressed here about women are truly unfortunate. Men have had their forums for self expression on the golf course, over a beer with their buddies, etc.. You may feel that we as women grew up privlaged to be able to express ourselves, but over the years, many of us have also had to learn to rise above hurtful words made by men who have been in our lives, as well as strangers. That takes determination! I would imagine that none of these men would want there mothers or daughters to be treated in the same manner. At some point, we all have to take responsibility for our own attitudes & behaviors. It’s possible to have a dialogue, disagree & behave in a civil manner.
Shall we start by applying everything you just said to women? Or is the female portrayal of men as incompetent, mindless, selfish buffoons, so ubiquitous that you don’t even notice it. It gets old seeing people criticize men’s “angry, women-hating, degrading tirades,” (or whatever you all are calling it this week.) When was the last time you piped up during a female bitch session among your coworkers? “Oh, please! Your husband’s not an idiot. He’s probably just tired of kissing your whiny fat ass.” Try dropping that little bomb among the girls; see how it goes over.
“I’m having too much fun to be a spinster! Life is good!”
That’s the sign of a great good woman. However much fun they’re having, they’ll always take the time to go bitch, moan and attempt to shame men.
“It’s possible to have a dialogue, disagree & behave in a civil manner.”
Did it ever occur to you that we don’t want a dialogue? And shaming language doesn’t work round here. You’d be better off at the Good Boy Project. It’s a site ‘for men’ run by feminists eager to define the roles for men that they approve of. You’ll love it, you go grrrrryl
p.s.
Carpe jugulum always had a better ring to it IMHO
Im not sure these pensioners hopped up on happy pills realise the mess theyve made of their lives …
@Happy
I find it amusing old hags always try to set the rules of conduct, while calling men bitter & angry
You’re happy being a spinster? You’ve failed at being a mother, you’ve failed at being a wife, & you’ve failed at being a woman
All you are now is a post-menopausal pensioner, you’re barren, childless, with no family, & only the company of cats, while you masturbate in some dingy hole hoping your batteries dont die out of freaking old age …
All you have now are second hand orgasms, & a desensitised vagina from all that vibrating, a pathetic facsimilie of the full body contact of a man to give you what you crave …
You’re the epitome of a failure, you lost the best years of your life, & now you’re so delusional & in denial you mistake being a failure for being pathetically happy …
Get your facts straight, being a spinster has never been about strong & independent, it’s a MASSIVE failure at everything a woman is supposed to be
The cold hard reality is, nature is BRUTAL to old hags like yourself, there are NO second chances at regaining your fertility or your youth
It’s actually easier to build an artificial womb, then it is to give some old hag her fertility back …
Women look at you, & they know you’re a failure, they know you’ve given up, once you get on that carousel, & u go girl career, you’re life is over …
& you’re life as a whore & prostitute & eventual spinsterhood has begun …
What is even more pathetic, you spinsters, STILL think you can continue your whore like lifestyle in your old age … you had your chance & you blew it …
Feel free to vent & spew your bitter & hostile words, as they no longer affect me.
@ Happy said:
“Suz, I am all for personal expression, venting & getting anger out of ones system, but many of the myopic viewpoints expressed here about women are truly unfortunate. Men have had their forums for self expression on the golf course, over a beer with their buddies, etc.. You may feel that we as women grew up privlaged to be able to express ourselves, but over the years, many of us have also had to learn to rise above hurtful words made by men who have been in our lives, as well as strangers. That takes determination! I would imagine that none of these men would want there mothers or daughters to be treated in the same manner. At some point, we all have to take responsibility for our own attitudes & behaviors. It’s possible to have a dialogue, disagree & behave in a civil manner.”
Allow me to translate. Here’s what Happy is really saying.
Not only are you men bitter, you’re shortsighted. Men don’t need to talk on the internet. They all get to go golfing and drink beer and talk about and do whatever they want, so they have no right to go anywhere and talk bad about women. No, men NEVER have to do things like work, earn money, follow their bosses’ orders, or fix things around the house. They have all kinds of time to do anything they want.
How DARE men come on here and talk even a little bit about how women treated them badly!? They have NO RIGHT to complain at all, EVER!
It’s we women who need to express ourselves because men repeatedly offend us and our sensibilities by saying such horrible, hurtful things to us as
“I want to have sex with you”
“could you please make me some dinner that I’d like to eat?”
“can you help with this?”
“You need to stay within our budget.”
“Can you please wear some clothes I would like to see you wear?”
“Can you please take into consideration what I would like to see/do/eat?”
“Can you please consider where I would like to go?”
“You need to go back to work. The kids are in school and we need some further income.”
I’m a strong and independent woman. I overcame these terrible things by splitting up with my husband.
You men wouldn’t say these things to your mothers or daughters. Never mind that your mothers are the ones who gave you the absolute wrong things to do and say with women, and are some of the most toxic women around. Never mind that some of your daughters are out there right now chasing “alpha” thugs, lowlifes and bad boys (like I wished I had done).
Having dialogue in a civil manner means I get to come in here, say whatever I want, and sling thinly veiled insults and shaming language at you men. But you men have to be quiet, sit there, take it, and say only nice, kind, supplicating, sweetness and light things to me, because I’m a woman, dammit, and you have to TAKE ME SERIOUSLY and Don’t Hit Me I’m A Girl!
And there you have it. She has finally put up the wall all women put up to push men away and protect thier sensitivities against truths that don’t reflect their circular thinking pattern of if it didn’t happen to me I can’t be so! But of course we can’t expect any feminist to have the BALLS they so proudly wear because “We don’t need men” and admit, “your right I’m that way deal with it”. Which I personally would respect more than pure denial and justification from a narrowlistic point of view. I know women who have admitted the injustices and the attitudes women nowadays have but of course would not change it because it would not be in their favor! But I ask the same question, would you want today’s women to treat your father, son, brother the way they treat and expect men to be?
@ Tanya said:
Interesting discussion. Me – Female, age 50, never married, no children. Worked to support my self since high school – still working – still live alone. In a long term relationship (11 yrs and counting). Observation about the male I am partnered with: who needs children when you have one of these! I am extremely independent as I have always counted on my self to take care of my self. I guess it baffles me to see a grown man acting like a two year old when things don’t go as he wants them to. Or to see a grown man acting like a 16 year old who “knows it all” and thinks he is smarter than every one else – but still needs to be taken care of – like a child. Perhaps in 5 years, I will be finally tired of taking care of a child that never grows up and want to leave too. Anyway – I love him – we all have our faults and peculiarities. After all – in his eyes I am a complete idiot and at times a “waste of skin” and deserve to be “punched in the head”. (Reminds me of the two year old shouting at his mom “mommy bad – I hate mommy!” when he doesn’t get what he wants when he wants it.) I’m sure if he knew better, he would do better – but the 16 yr old ‘know it all’ prevents further learning. So, if this relationship comes to an end – I won’t be looking for a replacement. In the mean time – we do have a lot of fun together. And I will continue to try to set a good example of how to deal with life’s frustrations and disappointments with maturity and a sense of humor (which usually doesn’t go down very well). I guess I can’t expect him to deal with frustrations the same way as I do, just a he can’t expect me to go into a rage every time things don’t go my way. We are all different.
This is just too easy.
Translation:
I’m a “StrongIndependentWoman” ™ in an LTR with an alpha who won’t marry me. I’m so attracted to this man who for the past 11 years has treated me like sh*t. He does whatever he wants, acts like a stupid-ass teenager who won’t grow up, and for good measure he freeloads off me and insults me regularly. I can’t for the life of me figure out how or why I find him so damn attractive. I can’t live without him because he’s so much fun. I’m the responsible one. I work and provide most of the money for us to live on. I could have married a responsible man, but “responsible guys” are icky betas and they never tingled me.
I write with supreme authority about children and how they act despite the fact that I’ve never had children myself and absolutely do not want them.
But hey, I’m the example to follow, because I put up with it all with maturity and good humor.
@deti, took the words right outta my conscious! Hilarious and oh so true. Another female clueless and self righteous giving thoughts on something she has no experience in and still thinking she is superior. I need to meet her Dude
Why Tanya stays with her boyfriend, in Roissy Speak:
B============D
With a significant number of these skinwalkers, it’s all about the friction.
Hi all, I commented a while back (the optimistic 27 year old). Thanks to those of you who responded. 🙂 I read this blog periodically (mostly with horror and dismay) because I want to understand men so that I can become a better woman and human being. I realize now that it’s terribly presumptuous of me to be posting on a site that clearly isn’t intended for people like me. But I have to say something about the disparaging comments that women are “loose vaginas” when they are young and so they miss out on conventional marriage and child raising (they become “failures as a woman”).
I dress and behave modestly feminine and I keep my knees together unless I’m in a committed relationship. Which, in this day and age, means my knees are together a lot. Guys don’t want to date “good girls”. They don’t want to date at all. They just want to hook up. I get hit on regularly, but do I get asked out on dates? Guys will say, “I’m going to be at Club XYZ on Sat night, you should swing by….” That’s what passes as a date these days. Guys want you to show up, get drunk, and go home with them. It’s not just “alpha males” that do this – it’s “betas”, too (I’d kill for a beta male of mine own, by the way). I don’t go clubbing – I’d rather go hiking, swimming, watch a concert, see a movie, whatever. You’ll argue that women have too HIGH expectations and that dating isn’t worth it for men. I understand. I don’t expect a guy to take me out to an expensive dinner – I prefer to meet for coffee and light conversation. Don’t woo me with your money, I can pay for myself (I’m a product of the feminist machine, after all), just show me your intelligence, humor, and kindness. From my experience, it’s the guys who have LOWERED their standards too much and only want the instant gratification that comes with those “loose vaginas” and porn. They are great for one-night stands, but men are actually marrying those loose vaginas!
Maybe the problem is with me. I’m professional and a liberal feminist. But after a long day of being the professional-equal-opportunity-career-woman, I want to come home and be the biological woman and I want my (hypothetical) man to be the man. He’ll cut the grass, I’ll make him dinner. I’ll slip into something frilly and put on some heels, he gets to watch and be taken care of. I fantasize about being his special plaything. I also fantasize about making him soup when he’s sick, comforting his children when they cry, and holding his hand when his doctor has bad news. I want to be a “person” at work and a “woman” at home. I don’t think that violates liberal feminist ideals (or am I a really bad feminist?). But being a career woman with self-respect today means I’m a “feminazi” and no one wants to buy this cow when loose vaginas are giving their milk for free. From the posts on here, older “more mature” men look at younger women with just as much disdain (we’re just things to “bang” to get back at your ex-wife). What’s a girl to do? You may say, “well, that’s what feminism created” and you may be right. I can’t turn my back on feminism completely. I’m in dental school and that would never have happened without the feminist movement – so I have to be grateful. But I suspect that the next generation of men (probably future posters on this blog) will keep chasing after (marrying/ divorcing) those loose vaginas, because they are easy and alluring. Cute gals like me will stay single and childless, because I’m just not worth the effort of coffee when there are hot tramps in the club. My looks will fade, my ovaries will dry up, and Rmaxd and deti can tell me what a failure to womanhood I am. 😦 I realize this isn’t an Ask the Reader column in Seventeen magazine, but I would appreciate any thoughts of you gentlemen about this (I prefer constructive over insulting comments, although I’m sure someone on here will rip me a new one!). 🙂 Thanks.
@Tracey,
not ripping anything, but have you visited http://www.hookingupsmart.com/ ?
I think you’ll find the discussion there more aimed at the female side of the issues. Not to say that you shouldn’t lurk here as well, I love both sites, but they’re not aimed at the same marketplace. In my not-deeply-thought-out opinion, they appear to be edging apart (since a bust up around christmas), but as I say I love both of them. YMMV
“Maybe the problem is with me. I’m professional and a liberal feminist.”
Yep, pretty much nailed it. The true “good guys” (as in, not namby pamby pushovers) want nothing to do with liberal feminists. Sorry.
@Tracey
“Cute gals like me will stay single and childless, because I’m just not worth the effort of coffee when there are hot tramps in the club.”
I’m not going to attack you the way I should. If I did it would be for your own good to hear it. Except to say that you will never have what you want. By going to “dental” school and doing all of the stereotypical college girl stuff (including serial monogamy which you yourself admit to) you have lost the ability to “have it all” and I think you know that now. The world you want, the one of being a working grrrrrl feminist and a submissive wife is something your brain is simply not going to be capable of doing. By going into higher education, you will always feel guilty if you try to be the submissive little thing your genetics tried to make you. Your intentional rewiring of your brain has ensured that.
Best of luck, I’m sure whatever thug you throw yourself at this weekend for a self-esteem boost will appreciate what I have just told you.
Many misunderstandings & anger on both sides. Women in their thirties say they cannot find a nice man. What they want is nice with a hot body and flash. They won’t look at a nice man who may be less attractive and not suave. No matter how thin a woman gets on diets, she is still going to be alone if her values are superficial. Single women outnumber single men. Do the math. Be realistic, too. Ladies, some of the men are pretty bad here. This is what the typical male feels but will not say in polite company.
Hi All – I really appreciate your input and opinions. 🙂 And no, I didn’t throw myself at a “thug” this weekend – I spent it in the library with my classmates (male and female) studying! 😛 Anyway, thanks for letting me vent and thanks for replying. Hope things start looking up for everyone. Best. ~Tracey
@ Just1x – I really appreciate the link. Thanks. Very kind of you. 🙂
My God, please spare me.
There really are “good girls” out there that deserve being taken care of. However, it doesn’t sound like you fit into this category (for the reasons ybm explained). And please drop the schtick about serial monogamy having some kind of virtue: every partner you have lowers your marriage value regardless of whether they are “done” concurrently or sequentially.
The problem with taking girls out on “dates” is that it just results in getting tooled. The ratio of “girls that appear to be good girls but are really hypergamous skanks” to “actual good girls” is pretty large. If a guy invests a lot of resources “dating” a girl, it just means that he’s going to extend time and money courting a skank in disguise who is taking in cock from the local band singer when he isn’t around. I know this because I’ve experienced it many times. Most guys know this, which is why no guys want to “date” in the sense that you’re thinking about it.
I do “date” girls who describe themselves as good girls, but my cutoff for that is about 24 or 25. If a girl passes that age without getting married, she’s not really a “good girl” in the sense that I describe one.
Maybe the problem is with me. I’m professional and a liberal feminist. But after a long day of being the professional-equal-opportunity-career-woman, I want to come home and be the biological woman and I want my (hypothetical) man to be the man. He’ll cut the grass, I’ll make him dinner. I’ll slip into something frilly and put on some heels, he gets to watch and be taken care of. I fantasize about being his special plaything. I also fantasize about making him soup when he’s sick, comforting his children when they cry, and holding his hand when his doctor has bad news. I want to be a “person” at work and a “woman” at home. I don’t think that violates liberal feminist ideals (or am I a really bad feminist?).
The trouble you’ll find is that this is a kind of split persona: career girl at work, “biological” feminine wife at home — two versions of a personality. It’s very hard to pull off consistently, really, over the long term. That doesn’t mean that feminist career gals can’t find mates — they can and do — but the home life is almost never along the lines you describe there. Among other things, fatigue is a factor, and a substantial one when working a professional job, as well as a lot of competing demands for time. But more importantly, the kinds of arrangements you reach when you have two professional type jobs (with schedules to match) don’t lead to the kind of home life you envision. This can be disappointing for some people — it varies, depending upon what their expectations are (and these are all over the map at this point in time). I think if you are set on being a career professional, you’d be better off, in terms of relationships, seeking out a guy who is also a career professional, and not have the leave it to beaver expectations about domestic life — these kinds of marriages can be satisfying for the people in them for various reasons, but they are much more of a life/business/economic partnership than what you’ve described. The leave it to beaver stuff is incredibly hard to manage with two professional job schedules and timing demands, and that’s not even taking into consideration children and the time and energy they take from what is left over after professional time ends each day.
Thank you for your input, Brendan. To the others – wow, such scorn. 😦 Not that it’s anyone’s real business, but I’m not a serial monogamist. I’ve only had one “boyfriend” when I was 19 (we didn’t even go all the way, so I’m not sure if that even counts nowadays). I lived at home through undergrad (commuted) and after because I was helping my mom take care of my little brother who had ALL (we almost lost him, but thankfully he’s in remission now). I did not have the will/energy/desire to engage in relationships with college boys (who mostly wanted to get laid anyway) because I had bigger problems to deal with at home. I was hoping that guys at this age (27) would be looking for more than just getting laid, which is why I posted. Stop jumping to all these bizarre conclusions – not EVERY female fits your whore-stereotype. It’s amazing how I’m severely shamed for being inexperienced by my peers at this age (both females and especially males) and I come here and am presumed to be a “whore”. Pretty sure you’re going to find some way of criticizing me now for being chaste. Go ahead – “You’re a disgusting frigid, prude who chose the well being of your family over giving yourself up to beta males in college. You deserve to be alone forever, you STUPID UGLY BITCH – ROT IN HELL!” Yes, I’ve got that message! Loud and clear.
I came here to try to learn more about men, so that I could be a better, more sensitive person to male plights, since I thought society wasn’t too kind to men. But you’ll be happy to know that I’ve given up – I realize how stupid I was for trying. You only want to project your anger for past experiences with women & stereotypes on me through insults. I’ll stop being fodder and just leave you all to your own angry blogging. I’m really sorry for wasting your time and commenting space.
Tracey- There are some female-ran blogs in the ‘sphere which are a bit kinder/gentler. Your goal is a good one, you just happened to have found yourself in a hot bed of male angst. It can be a bit overwhelming for a newbie inquirer.
poor you
Tracey:
Many of the women who have posted here have done so to gloat, talk about how hot they are, and how elderly men lose their dentures and spring ancient wood over their senior citizen bodies. You have not done that, so you will be spared the treatment I usually give those comments. They’re done tongue firmly planted in cheek and are for humor.
You see, many men who read and post here have been treated absolutely horribly by women who are or were in their lives. Some of us use humor here to defuse some of that extreme pain and poke fun at women who take themselves way, WAY too seriously. Candidly, they deserve to be ridiculed. For these reasons, many of us here are not too troubled by the outrage and offense women take to the comments. Here at Dalrock’s we’re about love and improvement, not hate and destruction.
You don’t fit into the “you deserve ridicule” category.
First, you’re right about “dating”. Many men don’t want to date at all. They have learned over the years and from other men that there’s very little advantage to dating. Most of the time a date in which he asks you to go somewhere to do something that will cost him a sizable amount of money almost always results in the following:
1. A flat out rejection: “I’m really flattered, but I just don’t see you IN THAT WAY.”
2. She says “thanks, but let’s just be friends.”
3. She goes on the date, lets me spend my money and time on her, I watch her clearly having a bad time with me, and then she says “thanks, let’s just be friends.”
Most of the time, conventional dating is simply a woman demanding investment when she hasn’t earned it. It simply results in a man getting played for a chump, a loser and a fool while she sleeps with the bad boy thugs and jerks who really turn her on – and he’s out his money and time with nothing to show for it.
Second, Brendan is spot on about what you can expect from an ideal husband (assuming you can find such a man who is attracted to you and whom you find attractive). I’d only add a few things.
1. You’re 27 and unmarried. If you are serious about getting married, you need to give it top priority. You really don’t have a lot of time left. The number of men who will want you as you get older will decrease with each passing year.
2. You are confusing male attractive traits with male desirable traits. Intelligence, humor and kindness in a man are desirable but not attractive. These things are attractive in men: confidence, social dominance, and displays of authority and power. These things are desirable in men: loyalty, fidelity, steadfastness, intelligence, industry, sense of humor, dignity, kindness.
3. You are also confused about what men will find attractive in you. You seem to believe your intelligence, personality and earning power are attractive. They are bonuses to men, but are not really attractive. Here is what men find attractive: Physical appearance, pleasing personality, and youth. In other words, to put it forwardly: Do all you can to improve your appearance. Be nice, don’t nag and don’t complain. Keep your weight down, your hair long and your makeup on. Please understand this. This is crucial if you want to attract a man to you.
4. You work in a demanding, high-prestige field. This will severely limit the number of men you will find attractive. This is a basic rule of hypergamy: women want to marry up, to look up to the man she marries in some way. A woman like you of high educational status and earning your own money just will not be attracted to or impressed by men of lower status or earning power. And to you, MOST men will have lower status and lower earning power than you. Their only attractiveness to you will be their physical appearance and displays of confidence. (Men who are good looking usually have natural confidence and ease with women .)
5. Take a good, hard look at your sex rank. Are you doing all you can to improve your appearance? Do you look the best you can? Eliminate things that detract from your appearance.
6. Take an honest inventory of your sexual history. How many sex partners have you had? To put it bluntly, if you have seen his penis and you allowed him to place said penis or any other part of his body in any bodily orifice belonging to you, he is one of your sex partners and he adds to your “count”.
–P in V sex counts.
–oral sex counts.
–fingerbanging counts.
–his performing cunnilingus on you counts.
–one night stands count.
–same night lays count.
–Spring Break sex counts.
–drunk sex counts.
–it counts even if he did not orgasm or you did not orgasm.
–it counts even if none of your other friends know about it.
–it counts even if you did not like the sex, or you did not like him.
Like Greenlander said, every notch reduces your value as a sex partner. Every man is different in what is tolerable in a prior sex history. You start getting north of ten partners, most men will view you as unacceptable marriage materials. There is a double standard. Men with a lot of partners are not viewed as harshly as women who have a lot of partners. That double standard is not going away. Deal with it.
The number of men who had sex with you before your husband is going to be VERY important to your husband. You will have to be honest with your husband about that number. If you lie about it he WILL find out. And the results will not be pretty.
7. Your view of marriage is a complete unrealistic fantasy and you need to jettison it right now. There is no way you can ever be a “person” at work and a “woman” at home in which you will come home from seeing 30 patients and then make dinner, give kids a bath and help them with homework and then put on frilly lingerie and give your husband pornstar sex. You won’t have the time or the energy. He won’t have the time or the energy since he’s working just as hard as or even harder than you are so that he can earn more money than you so you don’t lose your attraction for him.
Finally, given that you are a liberal feminist I have to wonder how much you really want traditional marriage. Or if you want traditional marriage, I have to wonder if you really are a liberal feminist.
Tracey:
“Cute gals like me will stay single and childless, because I’m just not worth the effort of coffee when there are hot tramps in the club.”
Thought experiment:
You’re at school. A confident, good looking guy tells you that he’ll be studying at his place at 7:00 tonight and you should come by and bring your books. He’s the guy all the ladies in your class swoon over. You’ve heard of his exploits and that he’s slept with a couple of the women in your class.
Ten minutes later, a really gregarious, funny, intelligent and kind man asks you to get a cup of coffee tonight at 7:00 at the Starbucks. He’ll even pay for your coffee. This guy is pudgy, kind of plain looking, but he’s smart. You kind of know who he is, but you’ve never really paid all that much attention to him before. Everyone likes him because “he’s so nice”. In fact he’s so nondescript that that’s what everyone says about him: “He’s just really nice.”
Just answer to yourself. Be honest.
1. Which man is more attractive? Why?
2. Which date will you accept? Why?
3. Which man is more sexually attractive?
@Tracey
You are 27 for goodness sake. Men have been courting you for over a decade, and it was all for naught. Just how many years/decades do you want to draw the courtship process out for?
Tracey:
From your February 4 comment:
“I’ve been hit on by my fair share of unattractive older men ***”
I think that’s the answer to the questions I posed above.
@Tracey
“I can’t turn my back on feminism completely. I’m in dental school and that would never have happened without the feminist movement – so I have to be grateful.”
It took all of 2 seconds to learn that the first female dentist in the U.S. was Lucy Hobbs Taylor, who was granted her degree in 1866. You owe the ‘feminist movement’ exactly nothing, for that, or most things. Add into that your self-description as a liberal feminist means you have most likely swallowed their fabricated view of history and society, and all that entails. As has been mentioned, this means that what you say/think/believe you are is likely very far away from who you actually are as a person and potential marriage material. Or, in the words my eight year old son asked me last night ‘how do you tell if a girl you like is really good or just pretending to be good, girls hide what they really are a lot’.
Also, to follow up on Deti’s point 1 above, it’s abundantly clear what your top priority in life is, and it’s professional career woman. Given your field and how demanding it is, you won’t have much of a choice about that, either, on a going forward basis. A man, marriage, kids, family life, are all going to be further down on your list, and any man will know that, and this will definitely affect your marriage pool, along with the numerous other factors pointed out by others above.
After a certain age it’s not about the attractive man anymore it’s about the personality “person” i can find something attractive in anyone just about. But unfortunattley i”ve been out with both and even the ugly one’s want to play with you so they make the choice for you. And at the end i can say I have given 100% only to find out later that they are still looking for something better. People can write such wonderful things about how relationships should be and how hurt and abused they are but it only confirm’s that they are just fiction writer’s because in REAL life they have have NO clue and have done the total opposite!
Thanks, Gabriella, for the suggestion.
Thanks, Deti, for all your advice. You are so right and I need to get it together. My parents have a pretty functional, traditional marriage and that’s probably why I have an innate desire for something similar. My “number” by your definition is genuinely zero (nothing beyond making out). I always falsely allude to a sex life (especially amongst my classmates), because it is expected of me and the lack of it is a huge (huuuuuge!) source of embarrassment. I’ve always wanted to wait for marriage, but I feel like no guy will be cool with that these days. I didn’t realize that guys still really valued it (I don’t see anyone valuing it at school – lol) – I figured they’d think I was a “child” or “boring in bed/ inexperienced/ incapable of pleasing them” or “frigid”. On tv I see 16 yr olds doing it and it makes me feel like a freak.
I’ve thwarted the guys with reputations in class who wanted to add me to their bragging rights (they are transparent and totally disgust me). You are right about having to honestly assess what I want in a guy. But I have a question: if I’m supposed to find dominance attractive – will the “well meaning, pudgy” guys exhibit it? Should I be looking for a guy that actively exhibits dominance? I don’t know what socially acceptable expressions of dominance are – can you give me some examples?
Hmmm… maybe I’m not a liberal feminist. I thought I was, but from what’s you’ve said I’m not too sure now.
Tracey:
Hmmm. Let’s see.
You come from a functional 2 parent home. You’re intelligent and seem relatively well adjusted (except for having bought into the whole “feminist movement” thing). You’re a complete virgin and you’re embarrassed about it. You want a husband, to have his children and to make dinner for him while he cuts the lawn. You want these things because you saw your parents doing these things for each other and it seems to work.
You have been told grievous lies. You are not a liberal feminist in any way, shape, manner or form. Whoever has told you that you are or should be a feminist or a liberal is lying to you. Being a dentist will give you a decent income. Being a dentist will not, however, help you find a husband. Whoever has told you otherwise is lying to you.
If you want to find a husband, you would be better off becoming a dental assistant or dental hygienist and working for a single male dentist who gets the hots for you.
I didn’t see the newer posts as I was posting.
Deti – LOL. The “unattractive older men” were mostly MARRIED with kids my age!
Paul – You’re so right! And you have a VERY clever son – lol! 🙂
Tere – I agree with you, too. 🙂
Dalrock – I try to put on a brave face and act bubbly and happy in groups, but when it comes to being one-on-one with guys, I’m SUPER shy/nervous (maybe guys mistake this for being aloof/ disinterested/ bitchy – but it’s not). Compound this with family circumstances (sick bro) and I think I’ve been subconsciously “emotionally unavailable” to relationships, which guys may have picked up on and chose not to ask me out. So now, I’m starting from scratch in dating at 27. 😦 I’ve had guys hit on me tons. I can count the genuine number of date offers on one hand. The reasons I didn’t go out with them was admittedly shallow: one was obese (but I was highly impressed with his genuine approach), one was albino (had a great heart, but I know he has health complications/ bad genetics that will make marriage very difficult), one was very Christian (I’m not, I don’t want a bible-thumper bf), and the most recent I don’t have a good reason for – I was so busy with finals that I didn’t seriously consider it. That last one has actually bothered me – and I’m actually trying to see if I can fix it and give him an honest go (we’re still good friends).
Thank you, everyone, for giving me some honest feedback. Your years of experience/ maturity/ perspective is why I posted here. Definitely have things to really mull over.
The problem I see with “marrying well” is that the divorce rate is high enough that I don’t want to be out on the street if things don’t work out. I also don’t want to take some poor guy to the cleaners in the case of divorce (this is not an honest source of income). I’d like to think that I’d do anything to make it work with the guy I end up with – but what if he changes during the marriage? What if he has a break down or wants to chase after 20-somethings (the way I’ve had married men approach me)? What if he doesn’t want to make it work, etc? Then I’d have to fend for myself.
Tracey:
If anything, being a dentist will make it more difficult, not easier, for you to find a husband. This is because most men will literally be beneath you in socioeconomic status and you will not find them attractive.
“But I have a question: if I’m supposed to find dominance attractive – will the “well meaning, pudgy” guys exhibit it? Should I be looking for a guy that actively exhibits dominance? I don’t know what socially acceptable expressions of dominance are – can you give me some examples?”
First, let’s dispense with the false social constructs. Many men will be very, very cool with marrying a virgin. It’s the ideal. What you don’t know sexually you can learn very quickly. You can teach him what you like and he can do the same with and for you. The fact that you’re a virgin does not mean you will never like sex, that you’re frigid, or that there is something wrong with you.
The guys who wanted to add you to their bragging rights – come on, Tracey. You don’t find them disgusting. Yes, you do find them attractive. All of the women in your class do. You have just decided – correctly – not to let them use you. The fact that you don’t give in to them does not mean they don’t tingle you. They most certainly do.
What women mean when they say this:
“I just want a nice guy who will treat me right”
Is this:
“I just want an alpha man who dresses well, is physically attractive, makes a lot of money, is nice to me and treats everyone else like sh!t, will have sex only with me, and will marry me.”
Yes, you should look for a guy who actively exhibits dominance. The men who are less physically attractive have to look for other ways to show it. Look for men who show some of the following:
–They are very good at what they do and have demonstrated some mastery of a skill, art, profession or trade.
–They “own the room”. They know how to walk into a room and talk to people they don’t know well.
–They are comfortable with themselves and in their own skin, and can take or leave anyone’s attention. He is OK talking to you, but if you don’t want to talk to him, that’s fine too. He makes and holds eye contact when he talks to another. He squares up his shoulders to talk to you, when he does talk to you.
–they are not wallflowers or shrinking violets. They stand up for themselves. They take no sh!t from peers and certainly not from women. Any woman who flings sh!t his way is quickly forgotten.
Here are some of the types of men you’ll be looking for:
1. The Cocky-Funny. This guy is confident almost to the point of arrogance. He also has a razor sharp wit that can cut down anyone around him – even the clear alphas of the group. Nothing anyone ever says or does catches him off guard – he always has a comeback. Think Danny DeVito, or Chandler from “Friends”. This kind of guy is the most visible of the social dominants because whatever he says is so memorable.
2. The Guy Who Works the Room. He is the one who makes an entrance everywhere he goes. It seems like he knows everyone. He greets everyone there and makes a genuine effort to talk to everyone at least for a few minutes. He is a fantastic conversationalist. When he talks to you, he makes you feel like you and he are the only people in the world. Think Bill Clinton (the master politician).
3. The Flashy Dresser. He isn’t very physically attractive but he knows how to dress and he wears his clothes well. This could be conservative dress, trendy, or even just color-coordinated. Whatever he is, he is the best dressed man around.
4. The Strong Silent Type. Nothing ever fazes him – EVER. He is always calm, cool and collected; and is a master of what alphas call “state control.” He doesn’t say much, but when he does speak it is profound and meaningful. Think John Wayne.
5. The Competent Man. He is the best in his field. He’s a lawyer, physician, dentist, cop, banker – whatever he is, he’s very, very good at it and is up to date on everything about it. He has achieved a high level of notoriety in that field and is well paid.
Tracey:
“When it comes to being one-on-one with guys, I’m SUPER shy/nervous (maybe guys mistake this for being aloof/ disinterested/ bitchy – but it’s not).”
I can tell you that super shy and nervous, clamming up, etc. is DEFINITELY mistaken for being aloof, disinterested and bitchy.
If you want to meet men, you are going to have to put yourself out there. You are going to have to risk. You are going to have to give a chance to men who you otherwise would not give a second look.
I’m going to borrow this from Badger (www.badgerhut.com):
If women really, truly want “nice guys”, then women will have to approach, ask out, date, fall in love with, have sex with, marry, have children with, and stay married to, those nice guys. When that happens, I will believe that women want “nice guys”.
“but what if he changes during the marriage? What if he has a break down or wants to chase after 20-somethings (the way I’ve had married men approach me)? What if he doesn’t want to make it work, etc? Then I’d have to fend for myself.”
For better, for worse;
For richer, for poorer;
In sickness and in health
Till death do you part.
If you aren’t prepared to say those things and be DEAD SERIOUS about it, then don’t get married.
If he has a breakdown, you stay with him through it and do your best to help him get better. That’s the “in sickness” part. Would you expect him to stay with you if you had a breakdown?
If he changes during the marriage, then you deal with the changes. That’s the “for worse” part. Besides, do you think you aren’t going to change? You think you won’t expect him to deal with your changes?
Wow, deti. You are so spot on. The last guy that asked me out is Competent Man #5, but he seems incredibly shy and lacks self confidence and he’s 32. That is why I didn’t take him too seriously, plus I was busy anyway. I see a lot of great qualities in him (which is why I feel conflicted about him and why we are still friends), but his lack of self confidence scared me (esp at that age). But he’s highly competent in his work and is a high achiever/professional. Does that count as dominance even if he’s meek? Thanks, btw, for taking the time to spoon-feed dumb me.
That’s because the path to professional success is long. You have to do well in school, bust your ass at work and work a lot of hours. In the meantime (during your teens and twenties), there is virtually NO payoff. The payoff doesn’t come until they hit 30+. These guys have been rejected by so many girls because they aren’t #1, #2, #3 or #4 and the impact of #5 hasn’t started to help them yet. They’ve been invisible to women for so long that they supplicate too much, and the rejection they receive makes them supplicate more. It’s a self-reinforcing loop of betatude.
If the guy is starting to make real money he may be worth a second look for you.
The advice I’d give you is to look at his status among other men, especially among his peers at work. A guy’s male colleagues will treat him with respect and give him status if he’s good at what he does at work just by virtue of his competence and ability. It’s very different than the superficial ways that women judge status. If his male colleagues think he’s a douche then forget him.
Wow…. thanks greenlander, you’re opening my eyes. He’s still in school, but I think he’s got a lot of potential. He’s a great guy and you are probably right that he’s been rejected a lot in the past (I tried to get info on him from one of his friends). His lack of social skills and confidence were a drawback, but maybe his real self will shine through with a good girl by his side. But even if it doesn’t work out, this is really good to know for any future guys i meet.
Thanks, Tracey. I’m just here to help.
“The last guy that asked me out is Competent Man #5, but he seems incredibly shy and lacks self confidence and he’s 32. That is why I didn’t take him too seriously, plus I was busy anyway. I see a lot of great qualities in him (which is why I feel conflicted about him and why we are still friends), but his lack of self confidence scared me (esp at that age). But he’s highly competent in his work and is a high achiever/professional. Does that count as dominance even if he’s meek? Thanks, btw, for taking the time to spoon-feed dumb me.”
He had the confidence to ask you out. Doesn’t that count for something?
Are you attracted to him? Not “oh, he’s good at his job and he’s a professional and he makes good money and he can take care of me and he won’t embarrass me and my parents will like him”. Do you find him attractive? Do you like him? What are the “lot of great qualities” you see in him?
This guy, if he is what you say he is, has self confidence. If he didn’t he wouldn’t be a high achiever or a professional or highly competent at his job. He just doesn’t have a lot of self confidence with women. Let me explain.
Men like him have been raised in a culture, educational environment, church, home, and society so saturated with feminism and female-centric thinking and conduct that he has learned to suppress male-centered conduct and thinking. His teachers were women. His college professors and grad school/professional school professors were liberals and feminists. Men and male-centered thinking is dismissed and derided and “deconstructed” as “patriarchal” and “hateful” and “sexist” and having no validity in a “post-modern” society. He has lived in an environment in which he can be prosecuted for rape on the whim and false report of any woman. He works in an environment with draconian sexual harassment policies. Anything and everything any man does to any woman in any workplace that any woman does not like is a “hostile environment” and therefore is sexual harassment.
(If an attractive man hits on a woman at work, it’s an office romance. If a not-so-attractive man hits on the exact same woman at the exact same workplace and says the exact same things, it’s sexual harassment.)
He attended school and lives in an environment and a culture which actively discourages male expressions of sexuality. Boys who talk a lot, yell and like playing sports are diagnosed falsely with ADHD and medicated with Adderall and Ritalin. (They aren’t sick, and they don’t need medicine. They are boys, and they need to get outside and play, run, throw a ball.) A man looking twice at a woman is sexual harassment, even if she is dressed in a manner as to invite looks, stares, and wolf whistles. A man looking at a woman’s breasts, even if her clothes are intended to accentuate her breasts, is derided and pilloried as a lecher and a libertine. Even if a woman is dressed provocatively, a man is expected never, NEVER to even notice it, much less say anything about it. If he does, he is called a sexist, a chauvinist pig, a thug, a lout and a criminal. Jobs have been lost and careers destroyed over men making offhand comments about a woman’s physical appearance at work. One sheriff in Canada makes some offhand, common sense comment about how women shouldn’t dress like sluts, and it provoked a worldwide protests (H/T Dalrock).
That might explain why your Competent Man is not very self-confident around women.
You might want to do things to show him you’re interested. You might want to, oh, I don’t know, tell him you’re interested. You might want to ask him out.
Here’s another reason why your Competent Man might not be so self confident.
All a woman has to do to attract a man is simply look halfway decent and have a pulse.
A man approaching women has something like a 95% rejection rate. That means that for every 10 women he approaches, 9 will reject him out of hand. Even the most prolific players are routinely rejected.
Here’s what a man has to do to attract a woman:
He has to make sure he looks good, does not stink, and is dressed well. He needs to look his best. He has to say everything exactly right, approach the right woman at exactly the right time, say exactly what she wants to hear, and show the exact amount of interest she wants him to show. Any wrong move, and he’s dead in the water. He approaches the wrong woman – dead. Approaches the right woman, wrong time – dead. Approaches right woman, right time but says even one wrong thing – dead. He gets the woman, the approach, the time and the sayings right but she doesn’t like something about his teeth or his shirt or his breath? Dead.
He cannot come on too strong because if he does, he will either look too invested in her or look creepy or look like a player. But if he doesn’t come on strong enough, then she will think he isn’t interested or lacks confidence or is a wimp. If he’s too funny, then he’s a joker and not serious, and is probably putting on an act. If he’s not funny enough, then he’s too serious and dour, and he’s not going to be enjoyable to be around. If he talks too much, then he’s a loudmouth who isn’t interested in what she has to say or thinks. If he doesn’t talk enough, then he’s boring and he doesn’t care what she says or thinks.
If he smiles too much, he’s creepy. If he doesn’t smile enough, he’s dark and disturbed. If he pushes for sex too soon, he’s a player who just wants to get laid. If he doesn’t push for sex, he’s a wimp who lacks self confidence and his di@k is too small. If he picks up the check, he’s showing too many signs of investment too soon. If he doesn’t pick up the check, he’s a pig, a cheapskate and a piker.
Once he gets past all that, he has to actually get to a date. If he calls the next day, he’s overly eager, desperate, and creepy. If he calls a week later, he doesn’t like her or he’s trying to play her. If he texts her, he’s weird and standoffish. If he calls and talks for 10 minutes, he’s too chatty.
Once he gets to the date, he has to pick something to do. If he spends too much money on her, he’s too eager, desperate and needy. If he doesn’t spend enough, he’s a cheapskate and a piker. If she doesn’t like it, then he’s a thoughtless pig who doesn’t care about her needs. Again, he’s expected to read her mind about sex later. If she wants to go home with him, he’s expected to know that and to take her back to his place. He’s not to talk about it; he’s just expected to do it. If she does not want to go home with him, he’s expected to accept the “let’s just be friends” with grace and dignity – after he’s spent the time and the money on her that he could have spent on other more worthwhile, productive endeavors.
+1 Greenlander. Exactly right about the Competent Man and his invisibility to women until he’s about 30.
@deti says:
March 6, 2012 at 3:20 pm
And thus, why we instead say we will meet you at the club, and show up if you want to. Otherwise the girls who are already there will get their shot instead.
Dating is dead, and I piss on its corpse every friday night.
You have hit the nail straight on. Women don’t realize what it is like for a man today. It’s so easy for them even if they are not that attractive they have the aid if makeup and all the other gadgets and doo dads to enhance their appearance to attract men ( ever see one when all those things are removed)? Add to that is society puts the Presure on the men to make the first move and to work to keep her! I agree with all the other things you added to show how rough it is for men. And women still are picky, selective, roller coaster emotional on when , what, how a guy does anything the can quickly eliminate him from any consideration. Add to that we are even expected to pay before we even find out if a woman is remotely interested in us. Right on with your explanation
Great advice deti. So he waited a year to ask me out, made very little effort to talk to me in person beforehand (only by email), and wasn’t very receptive to me when I went up to him to try to make conversation in person. I just assumed he wasn’t really into me and dismissed him. But i found out later that he’s shy and nervous and insecure w girls, but his intentions were genuine. i guess i was holding him to different standards than myself (although, i never thought i was THAT bad! lol) and you’re probably right, it was probably because of social construct that i expected more from him (“he’s the guy, he should be fearless”).
As far as attraction, it’s hard to really say because when I’ve talked to him, he clams up. He communicates to me mainly online and from what little I gather, I think I share some common interests. From what I’ve *observed* of him in life as a third party: I’ve noticed that he is reserved, bright, and very patient with others (that last one is what impresses me. he treats annoying people with diplomacy and kindness – i know i wouldn’t!!!). I think I could’ve been attracted to him more if he just let his guard down and opened up to me when I approached him (i guess i felt a little rejected myself). maybe you are right, i should try to initiate something and give him the opportunity to let his guard down.
Plus one to the invisibility comments… Well put and personally experienced.us one
I’ve been a selfish gal all this time, because everything I know about dating comes from other girls. I’m glad to hear this male perspective.
Tracey
Its possible that the unassuming men that you are shy with interpret your behaviour literally as lack of interest.
In the age of diversity, equal opportunity and lawsuits, it is safer. ey
Tracey, you have no idea how lucky you are to be getting this advice at your age. I needed these guys badly 25 years ago. I got lucky anyway, but believe me IT WAS LUCK! I was headed everywhere but where I needed to be. You already seem to have your head on fairly straight, but as you said, your only dating advice has come from girls. What you don’t yet know is, they are your enemies! They will do everything they can to undermine your assets, even if they don’t have the sense to value your assets. “Just in case” is all the excuse women need. You’ll see the term “scorched earth” used quite a bit in the manosphere. It’s the primary female tactic for competition in every realm. Don’t make the mistake of projecting your moral virtue and your kindness onto average (spoiled) women; if you are the person you claim to be, you are unusual indeed. I’ll stop rambling, but not before I offer this caution: It took me YEARS to see and value in myself, what my husband recognized, wanted, and cultivated, from the start. I have a good marriage, but it could have been a great marriage if I’d had a little more faith in his judgement during the early years. If you find a good man, trust him completely. Even when you find it scary.
Suz
Tracey will probably get the following dating advice from her girlfriends:
1. Just enjoy life and be yourself;
2. You are too young to think about getting a serious boyfriend.
3. You need a career to fall back on in case he dumps you.
4. Short hair would look really cute on you.
All designed to ‘encourage’, I’m sure. . .
And all likely to reduce her smv and make it harder to compete in the dating market.
Tracey:
You should also know that men like your Competent Man are given terrible advice on women.
From boyhood men have been taught by their teachers, pastors, Scout leaders, school principals, and everyone else in authority that the number one rule about women is “be nice and be yourself”. They are also told
1. never, never, NEVER to escalate sexually with a woman unless they have express verbal permission
2. if he asks her out and she says no, he is never, never NEVER to even talk to her or look at her again. If he does, then he is guilty of sexual harassment
3. he must ask permission for anything he wants to do with a woman. he has to ask to hold hands, to kiss, to touch her, to do anything.
4. he must give her anything and everything she wants. He must do anything and everything she wants. He must comply with every request and demand.
5. any deviation from these rules is sexual aggression. That means he is a violent thug, a criminal and a potential rapist. All she has to do is complain to police or University/college disciplinary authorities; and his college career is over. He risks college discipline that will go on his permanent record. He could be kicked out of school. He might face criminal charges.
at age 55, it is a lot harder to meet a good woman again. i am a straight man that had been married for fifteen years, before she cheated on me. i never cheated on her because i loved her very much, and i had hoped that i would have a family. but that obviously never happened, since she turned out to be the whore that i never expected. many women just cannot seem to stay with one man anymore, and look for all kinds of excuses to get a divorce today. i did nothing wrong on my part to cause this to happen. now going out seems like a game, trying to meet a good woman again. hey wait, did i say a good woman again? where the hell would they be? their attitude today sucks, that i have noticed. it is difficult to try to start a conversation with them, because they will just walk away from you. then again, women are more into other women today. what low life losers that they now have become. it is very sad, that many of them just cannot make it with a man now. certainly cannot blame myself, for so many women out there now that are so uneducated. maybe you women need to read a book on how to talk to men better, and have a better attitude. that would be a great start, and a miracle too.
Thanks, guys. @ Suz, observer: You’re right about women friends – they can be very judgmental and toxic. I get a lot of “Ew! You like HIM??”. Usually from girls who chase unavailable guys. I’ve been swayed/ shamed out of liking decent guys who weren’t very cute or smooth. 😦 I’m going to have to make a conscious effort to keep girls (and their opinions) at an arm’s length. It IS really scary trusting guys, though. Not sure how to overcome that one. @ deti: All those attributes you listed like stability, decent job, doesn’t embarrass me (that last one – lol!), etc. Those aren’t part of attraction? I always figured love blossomed from practicality. Guys don’t walk around with labels on their foreheads, it’s really hard to tell when someone is being genuine or playing the part. The only way I can objectively assess them is through those practical elements. Also, I am starting to understand how hard it is for guys to date – I do feel bad for them. I’ll try to be more understanding /sensitive in the future.
“All those attributes you listed like stability, decent job, doesn’t embarrass me (that last one – lol!), etc. Those aren’t part of attraction? I always figured love blossomed from practicality.”
Nope.
Alpha attraction traits: confidence, social dominance, displays of authority and power.
Beta comfort traits: stability, honor, fidelity, loyalty, dependability, responsibility, employed, kindness, dignity.
“Also, I am starting to understand how hard it is for guys to date – I do feel bad for them. I’ll try to be more understanding /sensitive in the future.”
There are a lot of reasons many men don’t spend a lot of money or time on women and why “dating is dead”. Mainly we want to find out as soon as possible if there is attraction so we don’t waste time and money on women who aren’t attracted to us. We know that women make up their minds very, very early on about whether they find a man attractive. If she is not attracted and tingling in the first few moments of seeing or meeting us, she will NEVER be attracted. We know that women always put men in one of two camps in the first few seconds of meeting him:
a. Yeah, I would have sex with him; or
b. I would never ever ever ever in a billion years have sex with him.
–If a woman really is attracted to a man, she’ll do what he wants to do – drinks, watch a rented movie, go to an art gallery. This is one way he screens women to find out if there is attraction. If she balks at doing something inexpensive, he knows she’s not really attracted; she’s just looking for either a man to spend money on her, a free meal or movie, or a beta provider. If she agrees, there might be some interest.
–Men push for sex and escalate physically as early as possible. This is another way to screen for attraction. If she rebuffs him, she’s not attracted. He can end it early with a minimum of time, money and fuss. If she responds favorably, he can keep pushing and he knows there’s at least some attraction to work with.
Explain this one…all you good men out there….How long does a girlfreind of four years that pays you rent, buys groceries, pays for her own meals& enterntainment, vacations, cleans the house, does the laundry, washes your car, brings you coffee in bed at 6:30am every morning 365 days a year, cooks you a helathy meal every night and takes care of you when you are sick wait to get a ring with a promise or a simple “I Love You” maybe once a month?? There are good women out there…I am one of them!! But how long does a man think it’s going to really last ? It takes two to make a relationship work and in this day and age people prefer to express their feelings to a computer rather than the person sleeping next to them. And i just don’t want to hear the good news…i would in general like to communicate, is that too much to ask??? Why should we play the role of a married woman if we are overlooked, taken for granted and ignored??? Reality is that men want to have women like me at home and make pretend they are still single just in case one the the playgirls from the playboy mansion needs a new boyfriend!!! And “YES” I stay fit and am pretty so finding a NORMAL (looks & money are not important) man is not a problem the problem is finding a man that wants to be in a Relationship and is going to give me the same (equal) as I give him.
Tere:
It’s not in a man’s interest to get married. It’s in YOUR interest to get married.
Let me ask you: You’re acting like a wife. (You pay his rent which means you live with him. You’re probably having sex with him too. In the 21st century, if you’re cohabiting, you’re having sex.) He’s getting everything he wants: regular sex, food, TLC from a StrongIndependentWoman ™, low hassle and expense since you pay your own way He also gets none of what he doesn’t want: obligation, commitment, children, threat of divorce and loss of assets. And you’ve given him what he wants without you so much as making a peep about what you want.
I’ll tell you why you’ve been with him 4 years, putting up with his sh!t. You like it this way. You are fiercely attracted to this man who takes from you and gives you scant little back. He is an alpha who does what he wants when he wants, and that makes you tingle so hard you’ll drop trou for him on command.
You could find 20 beta supplicants who will put a ring on your finger and walk you down the aisle tomorrow. But you don’t want them because they are not attractive to you. You won’t give them so much as a second look because they don’t make you hot.
Your live in shack up boyfriend is never going to marry you. Never. Not. Ever. Either accept it and fetch him his turkey pot pie, or break up with him and start dating and having sex with the NiceGuys you women keep saying you want.
Aaaahhh. I feel better now.
Tere:
Here’s how I know you’re tingling after the alpha douchebag. From your comment yesterday, March 6, 2012:
“After a certain age it’s not about the attractive man anymore it’s about the personality “person” i can find something attractive in anyone just about. But unfortunattley i”ve been out with both and even the ugly one’s want to play with you so they make the choice for you.”
Translation: I’ve dated and screwed the beautiful alpha men and the fugly men. All you men are just about sex, sex, sex all the time. So what the hell. If all the men want to do is diddle me, I might as well have the hot, good looking alpha douchebags diddle me so I can get my tingle on.”
You’re not fooling anyone, Tere. You’re all about chasing the tingle. That’s why the alpha douchebag has you wrapped around his tattooed finger. It’s also why he’ll never wife you up.
Deti – how should a girl react to guys “pushing for sex” as you put it. Men don’t want to wait around for a girl who isn’t giving it up (he’ll just get it elsewhere), but none of you want to marry a “whore”. How do you balance not wanting to lose a guy with not wanting to lose your virtue?
Deti:
Sorry to dissapoint you but you are dead wrong….read it again …..dont make assumptions about things you don’t have the slightest clue on….the “tingle” last’s what an hour????that’s NOT what a woman wants or needs…notice I wrote woman NOT “Child” and as for the doochebag…he WAS not GQ so wrong there too….you are right on a few things such as ” why buy the milk when i can get it free” I’ve learned my lesson but you really should not go around assuming….and have drink or something…….””aaahhhh feel better” comment just confirms that you get thrills out of insulting women….
Sorry “Tere” but you don’t have much reading comprehension. It is biologically true that once a woman satisfies herself on some random (for whatever nebulous concept “good genes” means) she will seek out a boring nice guy and either cuckold him or go into wife mode. You are not immune from your own biochemistry.
Tere:
You asked the men on this board for our opinions. I gave you mine. You don’t like it. OK, that’s fair.
Look: The point is, your shackup is a douchebag. You cook for him, clean up after him, sex him, wash his underwear with his skid marks, and support him. In return he gives you …. What, exactly? You give, he takes. He’s an alpha who does whatever he wants and treats you the way he wants. You put up with it. You do so because he makes you hot.
He doesn’t have to be a GQ male model Brad Pitt type to be an alpha who tingles you. All he has to do is not give a sh!t what you think and not care about what happens. All he has to do is think he’s God’s gift to you. It matters not one bit that he isn’t in fact God’s gift to you; all that matters is that he THINKS he is – and guess what? YOU DO TOO. You do, or you wouldn’t have stayed with him for 4 years.
No woman stays with a man who treats her the way you describe for 4 years unless you think he’s alpha. Or he has a titanium rod for a c*ck.
Tere:
If you don’t like the way your alpha douchebag treats you, uses you, mooches off you, freeloads off you, and regards you as little more than a fleshlight with a pulse then….
BREAK UP WITH HIM. Find a NiceGuy that I keep hearing women say they want. Find one, show him you are interested, and get him to marry you, forsaking all others and keeping yourself only unto him. Have That NiceGuy’s children and be faithful to him all the days of your life.
But I don’t think you will do that, because NiceGuys don’t tingle you.
….the “tingle” last’s what an hour????that’s NOT what a woman wants or needs…
Tere’s comment is proof positive that five minutes of alpha is worth five years of beta.
Eh, we don’t know enough about this guy to say what he is, for all we know he is a WoW addict pushing 400lbs. But COMPARED TO HER, he is an alpha male.
Yes, contrary to opinion there are plenty of women who are losers and “omega” as well.
Intimate relationships can be tricky, can’t they?
When a long standing relationship has become one sided, often a change of emphasis can bring issues into the spotlight.
Some women prefer to focus on their career a little more. Others findthat leaving things undone around the house will get their partner’s attention.n.
Another really effective change is to get a new style. Ir long hairg you down with all that washing, combing and brushing, get a new style that’s short, cute but sassy.
Bound to get you noticed.
* another helpful tip from the unreleased book: Domesticating alphas for dummies
Tracey:
You asked about how you should respond to sexual escalation by men. Obviously, we’re talking about men you’re attracted to. And, these are just my views only, such as they are from a middle aged man married 15 years. I don’t represent that Dalrock or others endorse my views.
How you respond to men sexually escalating will depend on many things: your moral views, birth control, comfort level, level of attraction, how well you know him, other men you’re dating, other women he’s dating, and many other things. Some say “No sex before monogamy”. Some others say “no sex before marriage.” Only you can decide what is right for you.
A lot of women I used to know back in college wanted to save P in V sex for marriage, and they did (as far as I know). They were down for just about any other kind of sex, though, once they got exclusive.
You know from my previous comments that sex is a lot more than just P in V sex. And you want to be careful about escalating to “sex”, meaning : any activity in which any part of his body penetrates any orifice of your body. Oral, anal, fingerbanging, cunnilingus, drunk sex, secret sex, one night stands – these are all sex. Each person you have sex with will add to your count, will drain a little more of your femininity, and make it that much more difficult for you to bond to a husband. You will have to decide for yourself, for your future husband, and your future children how much premarital sexual contact you are willing to tolerate, how much work you’re willing to do later to get past it, and how honest you’re willing to be with your future husband when he asks the inevitable questions.
I make the following observations:
1. Before things start getting physical with a man, be crystal clear with yourself how far you are willing to go. For example, as I said above, I knew more than a few women in college who absolutely would not do P in V sex until marriage, no way no how. If that’s your rule, make it and stick to it no matter what. The time to have this discussion with yourself is BEFORE you date and BEFORE you get serious with a man.
2. If a guy starts getting physical and you’re not ready to go there, tell him straight up. If he gets physical and you were feeling it but you’re not now, tell him straight up and put the brakes on. Some guys will get pissed. Some will walk out. Some will give you the boot. That’s fine.
3. If a guy starts getting physical and you’re ready to go there (wherever “there” is), make sure you know where and when the “stopping point” will be. Make sure he knows that as well. If birth control is necessary, it needs to be ready and in place BEFORE the deed is done. Use condoms. They will give a little more, but not much, protection against herpes and HPV.
4. You’re a virgin and pretty inexperienced for a 27 year old woman. Depending on where you live, you could be prime fodder for pump & dumps. Be on the lookout for men who want to close the deal to P in V sex on the first or second date. A guy who is looking to have P in V sex on date 5 or 6 is probably not a pump & dump, but there is a risk of that.
5. If you start down the road to P in V sex, you need to know that you run the risk of pump & dump. Just about every woman I’ve ever known who has had sex before she was married got pumped & dumped at least once.
Best of luck.
Thanks so much, deti. You’ve given me a lot to consider. I’m the only person I know in this situation. I really hope there are guys out there who are willing to wait.
JEEE…I AM STILL ONLY 49…BUT WANT TO KNOW MY FUTURE 😉
Ulla, your future is most likely very much up to you!
at age 55 and over, it is much harder meeting women again. i am a straight man that was married at one time, and i do find it very difficult meeting a good woman again for me. i have noticed that most of the women out there now are very nasty to talk too. many of them, seem to have an attitude problem too. why?, i just cannot figure it out. i do like very much to meet a good woman for me again, since i am alone and single now. it is true that women are definitely the much stronger sex, when they are by themselves. the men, which i will admit, hate to be by themselves. we are without a doubt, the much weaker sex when we are alone. then again, it is not fun being by myself nowadays. you feel sad, upset, depressed, you feel as if no one loves you, and it does give you a bad attitude about many things. when i was married at the time, i knew i had someone to come home too after a hard day at work. now with no one around, it certainly hurts very much. that is the reason why, married men will always live much longer than single men. but now i will go out every single night just not to be home by myself, since i have no one to stay home too. the married men out there, have their wife and children to come home too. they certainly have a lot to keep them from being bored. it is very nice to receive love, as well as give love.
@why is this, you just mentioned the fundamental differences between men and women. Women have it easier because they are programmed essentially to bond to siblings, kids, and other women. Men for the most part lack that characteristic. Women will gather at each others homes, go out together to shop, to visit, to have kid play dates. Men for the most part don’t do those things and for the most part meet together if it’s a sports event or to go out to a strip club, etc. Thus we as men are on our own once we lose our kids and family to divorce. A women can toto a bar alone and at the minimum will have someone approach them and they will have conversation for the night, a man alone at a bar essentially sits there alone facing possible rejection from the women and its not our decision to be able to sit even if it’s for just for conversation.
most of the time women will always reject men, and it does hurt a lot. it was a lot easier for me back then to meet women than now. times have certainly changed today, and the women are certainly much harder to meet now. i am 57 years old now, and of course meeting a good woman for me again will be very difficult. my aunt and uncle were very lucky to meet many years ago, they will start their 64th year together this year. i have to say, since i have very bad luck with women, and cannot blame myself for the way that they have changed today. i would have to say, they are obviously at fault. why should i blame myself, since i want to meet a good woman this time around for me. it hurts very much to see that so many other men out there now have met the right woman for them and even have a family today as well. what makes these people so special? don’t you think that i would have wanted the same thing they have? i am no different than they are. i believe that god punishes certain men like me, and gives the other men the luck that i would have wanted. do you blame me? the way that i look at it, they should go to church to pray and thank god very much for what they have. it is the men like me that are hurting now. like i have said before, cannot certainly blame myself for wanting to have what is normal.
Wowzer Eric. If you’re any indication of what American women have to look forward to … is there any question as to why they gravitate away from, not towards, relationships and marriage?
for your information i am not Eric, second of all, you women think that your god’s gift to men. with the attitude that women have today, is the absolute reason why many of us straight men have trouble meeting a good woman for us today. did you really expect me to blame myself, since many of you women today are very nasty and do have a very bad attitude problem now? certainly not. if your really that smart, why are so many women very nasty today?
Dear Eric,
For people like you, God made “gay.” Go trumpet your buddy, and shut up. Americans like to remain optimistic, not wallow in negativity.
It just astounds me how some of the comments here come from a warped view of the sexes. People, get over your baggage and open your eyes to the truth. The stereotypes people have of older women sicken me. As a 53 year old woman who is still attractive to men, I have no worries about whether anyone will date me. I have a very handsome man in my life who finds me sexy and attractive. Men still look at me and that’s great. Men don’t stop looking at an attractive woman no matter her age. In fact, they will think she is younger because they find her attractive. Attractiveness is not only skin deep but I suppose it involves some maturity and quality of character on the part of a man to expect that. But that’s OK – The shallow losers who bash older women don’t concern me anyway.
Also, the only difference between me before menopause and now is that now I can appreciate men purely for who they are as people and not anything more – Not as a commodity, whether that be as a provider, or a parent or for emotional security. When women are younger the marriage and baby clock make them single-minded about having these things above all else, and often to the exclusion of anything that makes THEM happy. Later on we still want a relationship but we are not willing to give up everything we need or want to have one. We will not sacrifice our hard won independence and our time to ourselves for marriage and family. We are content to have a man as the icing on the cake that we’ve baked for ourselves, not to provide us with the cake itself. The difference is that beforehand we need men to fulfill our lives and our goals in life. After our childbearing years are over we don’t need men for those things anymore but we often still want them. The marriage statistics will not reflect this as it may mean we just decide to make peace with our relationships and ignore our husbands’ faults while we find more time to ourselves. It’s HOW we want a relationship that changes, not whether we want one at all.
Hey Deti (if you’re checking this still) – I was reading through some of your comments waaay above to other people. You said to one woman who’s husband left her and her kids: “…maybe he wanted a wife, not a mother”. I’ve always heard that men “secretly” want to be “mothered”. When I think of mothering, i think of nurturing, can cook, and take care of you when sick. Men don’t want this? If you care to explain your thoughts, please do. If you’re tired of explaining stuff to me, I totally respect that (you’ve already been SUPER helpful). But if you don’t mind, I’m all ears. 🙂
To everyone – What does it take to be a good wife?
I’m nearly 59 and have been on my own for a long time now bringing up two children as a lone parent who I had in my 40’s. My last relationship was with a much younger man and it didn’t last more than five minutes, except to have the children. I think I’m attractive, funny, intelligent but of course, ageing. I’ve lost a lot of confidence in my ability to have relationships (if I ever had much – I don’t have a very stable relationship history and have never been married although many partners) but my sex drive is higher than it’s been for a very long time (I went through the menopause last year). The combination of desire and inaccessibility of a partner has driven me to a huge obession with Benedict Cumberbatch. This is telling me I need to get out there. But apparently, it will be a waste of time because my chances of finding a suitable partner are practically nil. I just have this naive belief that underneath it all, men and women are actually on the same continuum and we find similar things attractive. Personality is more important than looks (and confidence, intelligence and hunour are all sexy – dominance and authority can be sexy in both sexes but usually only for 5 minutes unless it’s backed up by more engaging characteristics) but that doesn’t mean that we don’t all want someone who looks healthy and makes the most of themselves. Attraction is a complicated thing though, usually driven by our family dynamics, so I’m not losing heart yet.
Dalrock
This is a question that I would really like to know the answer to. I neither agree nor disagree at the moment, my mind is completely open, but I do have a problem with your analysis. Whilst I would commend you on well presented and well argued research, I think this is precisely the type of issue in which we need a phenomenological perspective rather than the radical empirical approach you have taken.
The problem with radical empiricism is that is leaves you no choice but to use objective evidence like divorce statistics as a proxy for what women actually think and feel. I don’t think that you can say that the fact that women don’t leave their husbands is evidence of the fact that they don’t lose interest. The reality may be that women do lose interest but choose not to divorce for a whole host of reasons. In fact, even if they don’t have any good reason for not divorcing, it still doesn’t not follow that they don’t generally lose interest.
I would genuinely like to know the truthful answer to this question, but in order to get there, we need more clarity on what we really mean by “losing interest” and I would much rather we get it by actually getting women to reflect on how they feel about their husbands. I would think that both might lose interest in each other to some degree – especially if they have developed alternative interests in things like their children or their careers.
Regards
Peter
there are just too many LOW LIFE WOMEN out there now, the way i see it. many women today, are not looking for us straight guys anymore, like they once use too. especially myself, being 55 years old now. i am having a very hard time meeting a decent woman again, after being married for almost fifteen years. i was a one woman man when i met my wife, and i did love her very much at the time. but after the filthy whore cheated on me, it did make me very hurt and upset. going out now is like a game that can never be won, trying to see who i can meet again. more and more women now are into other women, i never realized that there are so many lesbians out there that existed. now , who the hell thought that i will have to compete with other women today, to meet a good straight woman for me. go figure.
Peter
Sorry, but we rely way to much on what you cal phenomenology already. Asking women how the FEEL about their husbands creates too many variables. Asking her how she feels about anything creates too many variables. The divorce rate reflects, empirically, what is one marker that is reasonable. How women feel is different every X amount of time, ask after an argument, ask when she wakes, ask when she suddenly notices the cut of some other dudes waistcoat, ank her right after 2 of her friends have told her that they are divorcing, ask when the weather is good,when the weather is bad, after she steps off the scale when its down, after its up, after she has made a major purchase, after she’s been unable to make a major purchase, on and on. You wont get anything useful except which patch of her ubiquitous emotional storm she happens to be standing under at that moment.
You have some studying to do.
the way i look at it, there seems to be a lot of much younger women that are going with men that are at least twenty to thirty years older. theses type of women are looking for a sugar daddy to support them. it just makes me laugh, when i see this. it it all about the money when the women go with the much older men. at least, half of the women today are very messed up to begin with.
Bestexotic:
I think you revealed the reasons for your predicament in your comment:
1. You have an unstable relationship history.
2. You have had many (I preume sexual) partners.
3. You are a single mother.
4. You had your children by a “much younger man” while in your forties. You are coming up on 60 and are still raising children, alone.
I think that you are correct that most men will find you unattractive, not because of your appearance, but simply because you offer more burdens than benefits.
You said that you thought “dominance and authority can be sexy in both sexes but usually only for 5 minutes unless it’s backed up by more engaging characteristics”.
A couple of things:
1. Dominance and authority are not at all sexy in women. If you are projecting these traits to men, they will not find you attractive. They may find you physically attractive. But they will find you bitchy, bossy, domineering, shrewish, and a hassle who’s not worth it. Women like this get routinely pumped and dumped unless they are Demi Moore. And I doubt that you are Demi Moore.
2. Dominance and authority from a man go a long way toward maintaining attraction. Most men cannot maintain successful relationships without dominance. So it works for much , much longer than 5 minutes for men.
If you want any hope of finding a man, I would advise you to be pleasant, be kind to him, and look your best. Keep your weight down, your hair long, and your makeup on.
The problem with radical empiricism is that is leaves you no choice but to use objective evidence like divorce statistics as a proxy for what women actually think and feel.
————————————————————————————————–
Pkearney, the more I read that sentence the more it bugs me.
First of all, what the hell IS “radical empiricism”? If thats not the kind of crockery terminology that feminists would cook up to challenge hard evidence I dont know what is.
And would you substitute hard data based on literally counting tangible countable things as inferior to surveys asking how someone FEELS? Have you ever spoken to a woman? Have you ever listened as women merge into empathy? They start with disparate feelings and end up with “oh sweety I know just how you FEEEEEEEEELLLL”.
I dont WANT a choice that doesnt involve empiricism sir
Ronnie:
I was more or less with you until I got to this:
“We will not sacrifice our hard won independence and our time to ourselves for marriage and family. We are content to have a man as the icing on the cake that we’ve baked for ourselves, not to provide us with the cake itself. The difference is that beforehand we need men to fulfill our lives and our goals in life. After our childbearing years are over we don’t need men for those things anymore but we often still want them.”
This is one of the major problems with today’s society: women deciding they just don’t want to stay with husbands after work and childrearing are concluded This passage says that it’s all about Ronnie, not her man, not her family, not anyone else. She believes men exist only to fulfill her life and her goals, then be in her life or not according to her whim and fancy.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t intend to make a cake, only to have her take it away and claim she made it all by herself, then insult me by offering me the chance to “be the icing”.
Demi Moore got dumped!
Tracey:
You asked: “What does it take to be a good wife?”
1. This is the most important thing a wife can be to a husband: Be nice. Be pleasant. Do your best to maintain a cheerful outlook on life. Don’t nag, whine, wheedle or complain. Just be kind to him.
a. Never compare him unfavorably to other men. We know where we fit in the pecking order with other men. We know there are greater and lesser men than we are. We don’t need our wives pointing that out to us.
b. Never compete with him. We compete all day long with others. We don’t want to come home to more competition.
c. Do your best not to complain. He knows that you have it hard some days. He does too. He knows how difficult life is. He needs your support, not your complaining.
d. Always avoid these traits: Sarcasm. Vulgarity. Use of profanity. Pessimism. Cattiness. Duplicity (being two-faced).
2. He needs to be the dominant one in your relationship. Let him be dominant. Let him lead, direct the course of your life together, and break the ties between you. You must submit, follow the path he lays out, and be graceful and humble in your submission.
3. Learn to be content with your station in life. Learn to be content with what you have and what your husband and you are able to build together. It might not be much, or as much as others have. But it is his and yours.
4. Maintain a pleasing appearance. You don’t have to be a supermodel. Just do your best to keep you weight down, your hair long, and your makeup on. You don’t need your hair done all the time. You don’t have to wear makeup all the time. Just don’t gain 100 pounds, look like a slob, and wear sweat pants and flip flops all the time.
5. Develop and implement home economics skills. Learn to cook, clean, sew, mend clothes, and overall manage a household. Learn to make do on what you and he earn.
6. If you have no children, you should work doing something.
7. When your children are all in school and if you have been a stay at home mother, you should return to work doing something. When your children are in school full time, you will have time for at least a part time job. In today’s day and age, being a homemaker with no children at home during the day is not a full time job.
It is amazing to me how many people on this blog have spilled their guts about the most intimate things; what an education. 🙂 Over 55, interested in men (sex as well); think that I am still a contender. Love life single or with a companion….. It is all in how you look at life. Jeanne-Marie
I would not remarry if my husband died. We have had 42 years are 60 years old and we talked about all the “stuff” you would have to
put up with. Children of the new spouse, their baggage. Just not worth it who needs the hassle?
The answer to the question is yes women older than 55 do still want to be in a relationship. One factor is that older men want younger women even though many older men cannot do the same things physically that they could when they were younger. Is that a reason to not be with someone, I don’t think so. It is all about sharing a life and age does not preculde that. Not all older women are crazy cat ladies, there are some good ones out there. We just need to be realistic about what is out there and adjust our ideas accordingly.
It is sad to me the number of men on this blog attacking women. I have been cheated on, physically abused, and used. There was no financial support in our home or child support out of our home. I am not a feminist, and I am not a lesbian but I am a women who has suffered great pain! If I never remarry, it will be because I have not encountered many men who do not look at women as objects. Around the world the number one threat to women is the men closest to them. I have studied the relationships between men, and women in the US as well as other countries, I have found that women are frequently treated like property; many suffer female circumsion, forced marriages at young ages, and sex trafficking at young ages. Perhaps this is one big reason women choose to stay single. I am 45.
Rae, there is much in what you say. In response to the premise that women 55 tend to want to move on: What is there to move on to if you do not want a relationship with a man. I don’t think most women want to live alone for the rest of their lives and finding a new man is far more difficult than many people realize; it would be easier to stay put unless the man you are with is not a good person and treats you badly. There are many things that are brought up on this blog that I could take issue with but it is not worth the aggravation. Good luck to all of us, we will need it.
Mae Sellars:
First of all, you talk about female circumcision, forced marriage at young ages, and sex trafficking of girls. Where in the US is this being done? Has this been done to you or anyone you know in the US?
How many women are staying single in the US because they fear forced clitoral amputation? How many women in the US are not getting married because someone forced marriage upon them as a teenager or adolescent? How many women do you know in the US who are being forced into prostitution as adolescents or teenagers? What men are forcing these things on women? Who are they?
I can promise you that if any of these things are going on in the US, the involvement of every police agency, governmental agency, social service agency, INTERPOL, the United Nations, and churches would be brought to bear and these men would be imprisoned and punished for a long, long time. There are so-called Mormons in jail right now for sleeping with underage girls.
Are any of these reasons really why you are unmarried at age 45?
I am sorry for your pain. We don’t in any way, shape or form deny that some women have been mistreated in their relationships. In fact you’ll see that we talk frequently here about douchebags. Douchebags are guys who cheat on their wives or GFs, use them and beat and mistreat them. They mislead women into thinking they are something that they are not.
Players and PUAs are different. Douchebags lie and cheat. Players and PUAs are up for casual sex and soft harems, but they don’t cheat, beat or mistreat. They are completely upfront and honest about what they do, how they do it and why they do it. Any woman who gets with a player or PUA does so because she wants the hot sex from an alpha who, for his part, is just doing what he can to get what he wants out of a relationship. She knows the score upfront. If she’s gaming him to get what she wants out of the deal, why shouldn’t he game her to get what he wants? Roosh, Roissy, Fly Fresh and Young, and Professor Mentu (just by way of example) are players, but they’re not douchebags.
Women “choose to stay single” because they are being lied to (yes, LIED TO) that they have all the time in the world to find a marriageable man. The culture, the media, workplaces, educational institutions, even churches, are all telling women out and out lies.
Claim: A woman must work at a career and get educated for it or she is wasting her life.
Truth: Many women don’t really want to work at careers or jobs, which they want to be easy. They get fluff degrees in “communications” or “PR” or “women’s studies” or “world peace studies” and work in cubicle jobs in things like HR, PR or journalism or “marketing” or “consulting” . Many, many women who work in public education have clamored for and gotten concession after concession to make their jobs easier. Even many women who get into hard, demanding, time consuming careers like business, law, medicine or engineering find they don’t really like it, don’t like the hours and will readily quit when they marry and reproduce.
Claim: A woman they can safely give birth well into their late 30s and even their 40s because they know a friend’s cousin’s sister’s boss who had IVF at a cost of about $15,000 and had a baby at age 44.
Truth: A woman should be done having babies by age 35. Her fertility and egg quality decline dramatically by then. She is at her most fertile in her 20s.
Claim: A woman’s looks only improve with age.
Truth: This is a difficult pill to swallow, but… A woman’s physical appearance and attractiveness peak in her early to mid 20s, and decline precipitously from there. A woman is much, much more attractive at 20 than at 40. Every woman hits The Wall, when her physical attractiveness causes her to be unable to pull the men she wants for sex and dating.
What perpetuates this lie are actresses, reality-show celebrities, and wealthy women who can afford cosmetic surgeries, botox injections, gym memberships, and personal trainers (who they bang instead of or in addition to their husbands). The lie is perpetuated because everyone sees these women – and they conclude if Diane Lane can look as good at 45 as she did at 22, then everyone can do it. If Kate Gosselin can rock that bangin’ body at 40 and after 8 kids, then everyone can do it. If Sophia Loren can still show cleavage at 65, then the aging cougar can take home the 23 year old college student with the six-pack abs for a bang and some playtime.
Claim: Women want marriage, always, all the time. Women are always looking for a husband.
Truth: In today’s culture of completely unleashed hypergamy, women are free to act just like men do. Women don’t want marriage – not yet. They want sex, but only with the hottest, sexiest, alpha-est men. They want marriage when they can no longer get the hot men to have sex with them. It’s only when she is 30, directionless, childless, career going nowhere (or getting more and more demanding) and has racked up 10 + sex partners that the baby rabies set in and she decides to “settle down” because “she’s not like that anymore”.
Thanks for your response, Deti. You need to write a self-help book. 🙂 I gotta ask. If the perceived “value” of a woman declines as she ages (she’s less attractive to men, she can no longer reproduce, etc), do men really WANT to marry and settle down? I get the feeling that most men would be happier perpetually chasing after pretty 20 year olds rather than committing to one woman for the rest of his life, enduring his wife’s post-pregnancy body (even if she worked out/dieted, it would still never be 100%), her wrinkles, her growing old, her fading beauty, etc. I’ve heard that men who have mid-life crisis do so because they see their spouse aging, but not themselves. I know that not all men cheat, but I know that quite a few do. I know that women can be unreasonable and cruel towards men and that’s definitely enough to chase men away. But even if I did everything on your list to be a good gf/wife, I still get the feeling that a guy wouldn’t want to commit or would end up cheating even if he did commit.
Tracey:
The perceived value of a woman does decline as she ages. A man does want to marry a woman and stay with her — so long as he is convinced he received the best parts of her and her best years. for example, Dalrock married his wife when she was still in college. She was pretty young when they married, as I understand it, probably not yet 22.
A man does NOT want to settle down with a woman who spent her best years chasing alpha dicks, and then settles for him because she can’t pull the hot dudes anymore. THAT is what he does NOT want.
Some men are happy chasing 20 year old hotties. You wanna know about that, go see our boys Fly Fresh and Young, or Danger and Play, or Professor Mentu, or Professor Ashur, or King Roissy, or Roosh. Most men don’t want that. Most men can’t do that and know they can’t do that.
Men do not have mid life crises because they see their spouses aging. They have mid life crises because they reach age 40 or 45 or 50 and realize they did not accomplish all they set out, or they have fewer years ahead than behind, or because their careers suck, or because they realize they got into the wrong career, or because they had a hobby they loved that they no longer have time for. Most men are not propelled into mid life crisis because of their wives.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how easy it will be to find a good man if you do what I list to be a good GF or wife. I think you will be surprised at how easy it is to please a good man. This is not difficult for a woman to do.
No, not “quite a few” men cheat. Only top alphas get away with cheating. The rest lose their shirts in the inevitable divorce. It’s silly to think that “quite a few” men cheat. It is much easier for women to cheat than for men, for the simple reason that men are much, much more sexually available to women than women are available to men.
Tracey,
You come across as emotionally wedded to the apex fallacy. You only see the behaviour of a small number of men. This also indicates hypergamous preferences. Unfortunately, whilst in the grip of these two influences, lengthy explanations and logical rationality will probably not help you see what Deti is trying to say.
Your closing comment also suggests a fear of abandonment. Again, colouring your subjective perceptions of what relationship reality is, which in brief, is this.
Most men don’t cheat but many women frivoulously divorce. Very few men dump their spouse. But lots of women do. Those are the unfortunate facts. Until you can acknowledge these, their is little point in proceeding.
Tracey:
You are 27 years old. I can’t overstate the urgency here. If you want to get married, you need to make it a priority NOW. It is going to take at least a couple of years to find a good man worthy of marriage with whom you are compatible, then get to know him well enough to determine if you want to spend the next 50 years married to him. You need to get going. NOW. Do not gaze at your navel anymore. Do not analyze, complain, grouse or wheedle. YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. You have no more time to waste. You need to decide if you want marriage and. if you do, you need to spend the next couple of years pursuing it in earnest and with purpose.
Don’t worry Tracy/Mae Sellars, only 10 more years to go and you’re done.
FH, 10 years is probably being generous. Deti’s urgency is right on the money. Marriage minded men are naturally attracted to young, fertile women. That may not seem fair of course, but that is how it works. Tracey, this is why a genuinely marriage minded women needs to capitalise on their attractiveness window and marry early.
Of course, the only downside to this is that nofault divorce law enables the women to initiative divorce and remarry.
Should add that the above is meant for Mae Sellars, not Tracy. At 45, Mae only has 10 years till 55 and at that age won’t have to worry anymore as she will be done with men.
A couple of female acquaintances spent the last 20 years rejecting every man’s advance made to them. None of them were good enough.
Ominously single and clearly a bit unhappy about it, they are furiously rationalising how much exra time they can devote to ministry activities, their careers, personal travel and various other time consuming hobbies.
Some I have stopped talking to as the consequences of their ongoing decisions become undeniable. For some, the wait for the perfect man continues, apparently.
deti is right. I married my wife when she was a cute 25. I am happy with her still at 51 because I had her prime years and we have grown together. I have no desire to “cheat”. I still notice women, but I am happy with what I had and have.
I had a mild midlife crisis. Nothing to do with my wife.
Also, count me in, married wife when she was 24, was with her since 22/23, I was 26 at marriage, now 50, and have not issues that she isnt 24, lets not look at the handful of guys who do do that, they are the same guys who are openly happy to chase 20 yr olds into their late 30’s, most men get married and life moves along, affairs happen to men and women in mid life time to time, and its rarely about the young hard body, can be, but the drivers are way more complicated than that usually. Then, as someone said, its far easier for a woman to have an affair, pretty much she need only signal she is willing….and bingo, off she goes.
@Mae Sellers
I know some of the other men here have been piling on, but I want to set your mind at ease. The risk of you winding up with the terrible fate of remarrying is fortunately very low, and it gets lower each year. Back in 1960, 45 out of a thousand unmarried divorced women aged 45 to 64 suffered the fate of remarriage in any given year. By 1990 this number was down to only 30 out of 1,000 (source, P148). 1990 is the last year I can find data for, but there are strong indications that this trend towards lower rates of remarriage has continued over the last 22 years. So your odds of being one of the unfortunate few women who remarry in your age bracket are very small. I can also absolutely guarantee that you won’t be forced to marry or be circumcised so long as you avoid a short list of Islamic theocracies.
You should also rest easy knowing that your chances of being exploited by men outside of marriage are now very low. I can nearly guarantee you that as a divorced woman in your age bracket you won’t suffer having a man see you as his woman (treated like property). The AARP surveyed men and women who divorced after 40, and found that those women who didn’t remarry (which was the vast majority of them) were extremely safe from this specific risk. In fact, 69% of them reported not being touched by a man sexually (including hugs). All you have to do is avoid the fate of remarriage and you won’t have to worry about a man trying to claim you as his woman, even for the short time it takes to have sex or hug.
The news gets better. If you survive to age 65 without somehow remarrying (and the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor that you will), your risk of remarrying drops to 4 out of 1,000 in any given year. Actually it is even better than this, because this is again the figure from 1990, and the trend has almost certainly continued to go down over the last two decades.
Dalrock, absolutely brilliant response, that.
@Tracey
The short answer is men (at least beta men) see a woman who committed her youth to them differently than a woman in the final stages of serial monogamy exhaustion. I’ve written about my own perspective on this here: Rejoice in the wife of your youth.
Edit: The other thing I would point out Tracey is that while your search for a husband will be harder starting at 27 than if you were 18, you still have the advantage of youth. You don’t have to be perfect, just better than your peers. Given the attitudes of so many young women today, especially those who haven’t made marriage a priority, you are in luck here.
Dalrock,
Well done for being consistently patient with your explanations.
Hi Deti, Dalrock, Observer, David, Empathologicalism, Feminist Hater – thanks for all your input! Yes, I’m on it!!! 🙂 The statement, “You don’t have to be perfect, just better than your peers” from Dalrock is what i’m counting on. I have peers who have already started letting themselves go (it’s a slippery slope, I fear). I also have friends who are still under the allure of alphas and turning their noses up at betas, as if they have all the time in the world. Both of these, plus their self-centered attitudes regarding guys, will hopefully serve to my advantage. I may be behind the curve on this, but I hope that I can make up for it with a genuine desire to be pleasing and caring (that’s why I’m on here, bugging you gentlemen with my silly questions!). And I’m doing whatever I can to upkeep the looks. 😉 You all have given me hope that there are good men out there. Thanks!
Another silly question: if divorce is a big reason why men are ambivalent to marry, would you recommend a pre-nup to assuage his fear?
@ Deti: the reason I said “quite a few” men cheat is because I’ve heard numbers thrown around in the media. I’ve heard estimates of 60% of men and 40% of women cheat while married. I thought those were pretty outrageous figures, but i’ve heard this many times on tv, in magazines, in internet articles, so I guess I thought there might be some truth to it being a significant problem. i’m really happy to hear that you disagree. 🙂
Most certainly, it’s not a complete protection from the divorce courts these days but it will show him just how serious you are of protecting him and yourself from acting frivolously. I would suggest, if you ever find the man you’re willing to marry, that you both work out a list of any reason, reasonable reason mind you, that either you or your future husband think is a valid reason for divorce. Once you have discussed your lists and agreed on a new ‘mutual’ list of reasons for divorce, include that list in your prenup.
And then stick to it. If the action you’re thinking of divorcing over is not on that list, don’t even think about it. In that case, put more effort into your marriage. If the reason is on that list, put far more effort into your marriage and if the spouse who is committing the action still doesn’t stop, then you need to make a hard decision. To my understanding, that’s the reason for a prenup, to mitigate risk and to minimise the actions upon which either spouse can act on legally in court.
A prenup is not a what many people think it is. It does not show that you are interested in divorce, it merely shows that you have reason to fear divorce and want to contain that fear to the very best of your ability. It shows the willingness, of both parties, to put the marriage ahead of their own feelings.
On pre-nups, yes, even in casual 4th date conversation, if you have a connection and are talking bigger topics than the silliness that can pass as small talk, sure, express your understanding of the reality of men and family court and the massive skew to female filed divorce, and that you GET that and pre-nups are cool as they attempt to deal with that.
Here is another thing, if you get a man who starts giving blow back reflexively defensive of women….he is a shallow thinking man who is trying to pander, he is an intellectual lightweight, and the worst kind of manipulator. You will not like him, it will end with tears, he is a white knight and the dynamic he wants is a victim he can scoop onto his horse. Its not a good dynamic for red pill exposed women, whether you are fully out of the matrix, or not.
This white knight ism is not a clear delineation of alpha vs beta, though some of the gamers may say otherwise.
Best situation is a guy who can see the problems with things as they are, despite being raised in a gynocentric culture, and then he and you have a serious matter around which to support each other
I am an African American male and I am over 60 years of age. Most people don’t even think I have reached the age 50 by my looks and youthful behavior. I am also married and a church goer. It is my observation in that environment that for Black women the age of not being able to find a relationship or a date is more like 40-45. I sure also state that I live in a community that is 70% white if not more. I have found because many women 50, both black and white, are willing to have a short term relationships with a married man because they don’t seem to be interested in long term relationship for whatever reason. However, I can say that I am very attractive to women generally in the age group of 45-55. Some of these women are so damn hot that I want to leave home. But, you soon learn that most of these women have a lot of baggage. I won’t call myself being married is baggage, because they already know I am bringing that to the relationship.
I’d be careful about bringing up a prenup, the biased family court, etc. especially early on. It makes me think of one listing sheet we saw when buying a home. Unprompted it said that all of the foundation issues had been repaired. Bringing up risk isn’t always a good sales technique, even when you are trying to mitigate it in the buyer’s mind. If he brings it up that is something different though.
One thing you can do to send a message on how seriously you take marriage is not be afraid to judge those who divorce absent a short list of reasons like Feminist Hater suggested. Sadly the topic of a man or a woman who became bored, unsatisfied, “found themselves”, fell in love with someone else, etc and divorced is bound to come up just because it is so common. You don’t have to make a bigger issue about it than is appropriate for the context/conversation, but you can be clear that what that person did is unacceptable. If he is frightened away by this, then you just saved yourself and your future children much heartbreak. Otherwise the message will be sent. Only do this of course if you truly believe it.
Good sense:
Are you saying you are married, and you have relationships with women not your wife?
deti, he definitely stated he was married but I don’t know if he just finds these women ‘so damn hot’ and wishes he could leave his marriage to screw them or if he’s actually committing adultery and wishes to leave his marriage so that he doesn’t have to hide it anymore?
FH:
I wonder about it because of the last sentence of GoodSense’s comment.
‘Are you saying you are married, and you have relationships with women not your wife?’
Yes!
C’mon man. If you want to sleep around, don’t marry. If you marry, don’t sleep around. I’m African-American also and your comment is an embarrassment.
Really! An just who am embarrassing? People have affairs or African Americans. I hope you are not saying you are embarrassed because another African Americans is having a relationship with women who are between 45 & 55, who he finds to be ;pretty damn hot. Because more than African American men have affairs. So, back to the point of the article, yes I think many women are really nice to be with who are 50 and older. The wife don’t seems to have much interest in sex.
Wow, really great suggestions! 🙂 I hate the idea of bringing up a pre-nup, but I wouldn’t want a guy to feel financially vulnerable to me. Stressing the importance of marriage and our “deal-breakers” for divorce is a good idea. I guess I will know the right way to proceed depending on the guy. Hopefully I will meet a guy who makes roughly the same amount as me, then a pre-nup wouldn’t really be an issue, since we contribute roughly equally. I’m not sure what I would do if I made significantly more money than he does. I wonder how willing a man would be to sign a pre-nup, so that the woman wouldn’t be financially vulnerable to him.
Tracey:
1. A prenup in today’s MMP is a great idea for men. Men being the logical, analytical people they are, a contract spelling out how things will be handled if the marriage goes south is something most men will be OK with, I would guess. (It pains me to say this as a married man; but I would not advise marriage to men in today’s MMP. If he really wants marriage, a prenup is a must.)
2. As for you making more money than your husband: I seriously doubt you will be attracted long term to a man who earns less than you do. If you are still serious about becoming a dentist, you will be happier long term marrying a man who outearns you. Money and education are status in today’s SMP. The only way you will be attracted long term to a man whom you outearn is if he is very good looking or high status in some other way.
You and your husband will not always have earning parity. Most couples don’t. When I married I outearned my wife by a little. She doesn’t work now but if she returned to work in her previous profession, I would earn between 6 and 8 times what she does.
You need to pay attention to how attraction works. I don’t think you understand it very well.
Hi Deti – I understand that women are attracted to men who are more successful, but I just figured you can still be a good man, good husband, good father even if you don’t make more bank. I’ve seen a few cases of happy marriages, where the woman out earns the man (I know it’s not the “norm”, but it’s possible). I just want to keep an open mind and not immediately disqualify good men – especially since I’m entering the game a little late. I also like to assume that money comes and goes – people do lose their jobs, make bad investments, businesses go under, etc. But common values, goals, and perseverance to achieve those goals, should be more important. On the other hand, I’ve also seen men live completely off of women’s earnings (again, not the “norm”) and that would definitely kill the attraction – he needs to work as hard as he can to provide for his family.
Maybe it’s more about his work ethic, attitude, and drive more than the actual dollar figure he brings. A guy who earns less but has a will to work hard is less likely to fail or more likely to bounce back from failure, than a guy who earns more than me but does a half-ass job. The big question, I guess, would be how a guy responds to a woman out earning him. Will he still maintain the drive to work hard and earn, or will he take it easy and figure he’s “set” with her.
the trouble today is that so many women are certainly without a doubt are very spoiled now. years ago, many women accepted a man for himself. today it seems many women take full advantage with men that have money. can’t you women like a man for himself? with the rotten attitude that many women have now, really makes it difficult for us good men that are really looking to meet a good woman today, if there are any left.
Wow.
This post came up top of the heap when I googled “done with men”, because it occurred to me, to my shock, that I pretty much am. And there’s some angry, angry men posting on this thread, so thanks for, um, helping to confirm my insight. Though I’m assuming that most men are less angry and hateful than this.
I’m a mom in my 40s, I’m divorced, I’ve been on my own (separated or divorced) nearly a decade now. Despite all this nonsense on here about “sexual value”, I don’t want more kids, I don’t delude myself into thinking I look 10 years younger than I am, and yet there’s no shortage of men asking me out. Two this week. What I find, frankly, is that the men have trouble with sex, one way or another, and that mainly they’re lonely, not genuinely horny or (realistically) looking to make babies. So guys, you can try to make yourselves feel better with that sexual-value stuff, but I think we know what it’s worth.
I just realized the other day that no, I don’t want to share my life. I really enjoy my life, and it’s full. I’ve got a wonderful kid, work I love, great friends, good health, enough money, and a home I’ve put a lot of work into. And every man I’ve ever met, ever, seems to need an awful lot of care and attention and emotional propping-up, and it only seems to get worse as they get older. I don’t really have time for this, and it’s not fun. I don’t mind having men as friends, I enjoy flirting, and sex can be nice though not too many men seem to be so good at it, but…I look back on all those years living with boyfriends and my husband, and I just don’t see the appeal of having the guy there anymore. I mean I suppose if I met someone who bowled me over completely, then maybe. Even then, I suspect I’d be happier if he kept his own place.
If it makes you feel better, I’m not really too excited about the idea of living with another woman, either. But I think what it comes down to is that if a guy’s going to convince me to bring him into my life and my kid’s, he’s really got to bring something pretty great. Not something he thinks is great: something I think is great. And on top of that he’d have to take care of himself, and not push and bully me for attention, and not make much more work for me. And I guess that’s the root of all this moaning about “you don’t need me” that I’ve gotten over the years from men — that’s right, I don’t, and I guess it means showing up isn’t enough. It means you actually have to make my life better, overall, if I’m going to say yes to being with you, and that’s not going to be so easy to do, because my life’s already pretty good. Maybe “you don’t need me” translates to “I want you to make this easy for me and you’re not.”
Now, you can get all furious about that if you like, and start stomping around about how women aren’t any treat either, but this is my experience. 55, no, that seems late to me.
@ Absolutely True: I feel your anguish. It IS hard to find a good woman! Lots of shallowness, inflated egos, selfishness, etc. But there are a few good women out there still, please don’t give up hope! 🙂 I’m trying to find a good man who actually WANTS to settle down – no easy feat nowadays! We both have our work cut out for us. 🙂
” And there’s some angry, angry men posting on this thread, so thanks for, um, helping to confirm my insight. Though I’m assuming that most men are less angry and hateful than this.”
So are you saying that you’ll “confirm” your “insight” based on what you clearly perceive to be a MINORITY opinion/attitude?
Can a brain get whiplash? ‘Cuz, OW! Mine hurts all of a sudden.
Sarah
Great Post, so young, so angry…………
Damn that rap music
Don’t worry Sarahj, if you’re looking for great sex, there’s always the porn industry. And don’t worry so much, no guy worth his salt cares for you anyway, so enjoy the freedom, the pussy ravaging from the PUAs and the cats! Take care now, you skanky little broad.
Sarahj said, mom in 40’s, I just realized the other day that no, I don’t want to share my life. Is that because of the reality that you can’t get another to share it with you.
@Sarahj
When she wants to brag, Sarah tells us about all of the attention she gets from men. But when she wants to put men down, she can’t help but admit that the only attention she gets is from undesirable men.
Mental whiplash indeed.
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.
Hottness begats sexual energy and skill
Just sayin
Can she not see that she is what this thread is about? Sorry, cyber smack, of course she cannot. Thread says are women done with men at 55, sarah says NOPE, Im done at 40!
She smugly turns and walks away
@Dalrock
One question on the opposite side: When and how should a red-pill man bring up his views on marriage/relationships/frivolous divorce?
bskillet:
I think a red pill man should not talk about his views on relationships or marriage or divorce with a woman unless he is dating her seriously and he himself is thinking about a serious LTR or marriage with her. And even then he should not bring it up until she has brought it up first. And he should present them at first as opinions he holds generally, not applicable to him and his girl or even to him in particular. It should be matter of fact and nonchalant. He should not in any way try to suss out her views — at least not overtly.
Way to shift ground, Dalrock. The “happily married” part sounds less credible the more you post like that.
Replies like the ones above again confirm the view. Not that they’re unusual among men getting the news that women aren’t that hugely interested. I don’t find that it happens the other way around. You get a gay guy, or a guy who’s just a confirmed bachelor, as they used to say, and most women will find that completely unthreatening. But a woman steps up and says yeah, I was married and lived with men, and I’m just not interested anymore, and men spitting vitriol come out of the woodwork. Fortunately, that’s the worst of men, and most aren’t like that. I still don’t want to marry another one, though.
It’s too bad, really. When I was a kid & a young woman, all my close friends were male. Didn’t think girls were all that interesting. In the end, though, they just turn out saner & more together. And the funny thing is the guys I’m still friends will all agree with that. They prefer women’s company too. Wasn’t always so.
@Good Sense, I’d have thought a single mom in her 40s would definitely not be appealing. Turns out to be totally untrue. The guys come on courting hard, ignore me the first few times when I say I’m not looking for this, get confused once they understand I’m serious, and…well, they get frustrated. I mean they’re civil, and all, but you can see they’re trying their damnedest to win at life and things are not. working. at. all, and they don’t get what the rules are supposed to be, and — the kicker — they think there’s rules. They figure, I do A, I get B, and nothing at all in their lives is working that way. Then they get curious/angry and want to know why I don’t want to find a guy & get married, and I tell them. And then you can see the struggle over whether or not to take it personally, & since they’re usually pretty good guys they don’t, but you can also see them wondering if maybe they’ve just done everything wrong, and I’ve got it right. Sometimes they say it out loud. And again, you feel for them, but I really can’t help them there, either. Apparently I did get it right — for me. My life’s pretty fine. But that doesn’t mean fuck-all for them, because what I want’s not necessarily right for them. So it’s not like I can say yeah, here’s the map.
I’m not going to be a bitch to men and shut the door in their faces unless they’re rude first, but I will make it plain that I’m not interested. Got a message today from a fellow who wants to drive five hours to have lunch with me. I think that’s crazy, and I’ve told him so. I don’t find him physically attractive. If he’s in the mood for a drive, shows up and wants to have lunch, okay, but it’s going to be a waste of his time other than the tourism, because it’s just going to be lunch.
As for prenups: I’m all for them. I went into marriage with property & assets, checked the code, and it looked like my property was safe. During divorce I found out case law had, um, tweaked the code, and had we stayed married much longer, I’d have lost a big chunk of money to him. The problem is that judges don’t always respect prenups. I’d say if in doubt, don’t marry, just live together.
So you’re comparing guys who never entered into the commitment of marriage, and therefore are not under any moral duty to remain in a life-long relationship, with a woman who promises “till death do us part” and then later decides “I’m just not interested anymore”? Do you not see the obvious difference here? One simply chooses not to make an oath. The other makes an oath, and then just decides she doesn’t want to abide by it anymore, and betrays her spouse, and we’re supposed to be just fine with that? The first has done nothing wrong by choosing not to marry. The second has chosen to marry, and then goes back on her promise.
That’s some amazing hamster-batics right there.
Jeez Sarahj, life’s just so perfect and all, why are you here telling us about it? Go live, over 40 year old, princess, singlemom/knockout cougar. There are (beta) guys literally coming back for rejection again and again, just to have a moment with you, one single tiny moment of your rejection is pure heaven for these men. They will even drive 5 hours, after being called crazy, just to be with your precious self. Your story completely, unequivocally puts to rest the question of whether women are really done with men at 55. They’re not just done, they’re done done, as in done, no more, nada, zilch, DONE!
Please Sarahj, give us more, we live in awe of your hamster, the gift that just keeps giving. MOAR!!!
@Good Sense, I’d have thought a single mom in her 40s would definitely not be appealing. Turns out to be totally untrue. The guys come on courting hard, ignore me the first few times when I say I’m not looking for this, get confused once they understand I’m serious,
——————————————————————————
Sarah
Makes me weary, back and neck ache
Try this
Poster Here says : ‘most people are right handed”
Sarah says: NOT TRUE, I am left handed
Until we rid the world of the narcissism that makes women and some men see EVERYTHING through their own tiny existence, forget having a discussion. When every point posited is met with “NOT TRUE, me/my sister/my mom/my neighbor/everyone I know are not that way…….failing to realize that excludes 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the world, we will not meet minds
You’d think older women would be friendly and humble. But they lack humility and have this conception of their internal greatness despite their deteriorating looks (this is the wake up call older women need). Sure, it’s a huge kick in the balls, but it is a necessary kick in the balls.
@Feminist Hater
From what I hear the best part about dating older women is they are guaranteed sex and are always willing to pay for dinner and drinks. Five hours seems like a long drive, but there are always exceptions, especially where easy sex is concerned.
And I guess that’s the root of all this moaning about “you don’t need me” that I’ve gotten over the years from men — that’s right, I don’t,
I came to the same conclusion after my divorce several years ago as well, in the opposite direction, however. I really don’t need a woman in my life at all to feel just fine — I’m quite happy as it is. I do have one in my life, but the only reason she’s there is because she positively adds value to mine. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be interested at all, and I have never chased women at all since my divorce, because women are mostly not worth the energy it takes to do so, and the ones who need chasing and so on are going to be the ones who are looking to be “net winners” in the relationship, like you are, as compared with me, who is also looking to be a “net winner”. So I just went about my business and after several years happened across someone who made sense, and so we are together — but, again, only because it adds value for me. She is unique in that case, because almost no other woman would add any value to my life at all. And I’m also in my 40s. Our generation of men and women, I think, really, really dislikes each other, and for good reasons (probably on both sides).
‘@Good Sense, I’d have thought a single mom in her 40s would definitely not be appealing. Turns out to be totally untrue. The guys come on courting hard, ignore me the first few times when I say I’m not looking for this, get confused once they understand I’m serious
=======================================================================
sarahj, you much have something mighty hot, because where I sit I don’t see this as the case with most women after they hit 40 and above. Generally speaking, every year added on after 40 the woman receive less and less interest from men. I really just don’t believe the guys come courting hard in your situation, even if you are a good looker. Your baggage just make you not interesting to the average guys. I am 62 and married and I can pick up fine women in the her 30’s. So, why put up with you! However, like I said before, I like hot women in their 40’s and 50’s. But, I would never put up with the stuff you are picking down on this blog. It too easy to get somewhere else.
Brendan, I never bothered much with women at any stage in my life. Most of them are just not very interesting. I found one who was cute and feminine and quite interesting, and I am still married to her. But most of them are not worth the trouble.
And yes, at the risk of generalising from overseas, American men and women do seem to dislike each other. Good work, social progressives – quite an achievement, almost unique in history.
Brendan, good for you (and your wife/gf) — that sounds perfect. Men and women disliking each other…you know, I don’t know. I see that we’re often friends. I see a lot less willingness to put up with each other as mates, though, particularly after the kids come along. I think it’s going to be another generation or two, maybe, until men and women are accustomed to…well, just how much women can do, and want to do, and insist on doing. I think readjustment is necessary on both sides. Women will have to recognize that equality does not mean that the men have as much stamina (including sexual stamina) as they do, particularly as we get older. And men will have to recognize that moving into a support role doesn’t mean they’re having their balls busted.
Most of the women I know make their husbands or boyfriends or exes really, really tired, because it’s the women doing 73 things at once, and really into it. The men are not interested in this — they want to do a well-defined job, get it done, then rest. And at this point the men still kind of expect that the women are going to stop and hang with them, or at least not show them up. I see a lot of marriages break up as the women pull ahead careerwise while still doing the bulk of the childrearing and home-running, and they get impatient with the men because the men don’t or won’t recognize that standing there with their hands in their pockets is actively damaging to the women’s careers. There’s just not time to be slow in arranging childcare, researching insurance, getting up to speed on the kids’ curriculums & activities, etc. There’s no old-fashioned wife around who’ll take care of it if you have to drop things and go back to work. And if things aren’t handled timely, the resulting emergencies mean the wife’s career gets yet another ding — because she’s the one who’ll pick up the emergency slack. (And she’ll take that hit at work partly because she still has to fight to prove that she can do the job even though she’s a mom, thanks to nutzoid workplace cultures.) So the women get proactive and cut slow men out of the picture, and next thing you know the guy’s complaining he’s irrelevant and is mopey, and it’s a spiral from there. Particularly if the woman’s career is hotter than the man’s — then he feels he can’t win in any arena.
Where it seems to turn around is as the men near retirement — the women are still going, and the men are content to support them in that: they take on the housekeeper role. The men who don’t want that, who were hoping the women would sort of accompany them through retirement and hang out with them, steer their social lives, etc. — those guys wind up unhappy.
Personally, I think some significant role reversal will show up in the next couple generations, and that this will be a helpful thing for marriages lasting.
bskillet, you missed the point by a mile.
Good Sense, I don’t see the single moms around here in their 40s staying single for long, if remarriage is what they’re after. We’re all pretty ordinary-looking well-educated women, maybe in better shape than average, but obviously not 25. I think this whole “women are unattractive after 40” thing must be more or less baloney — I don’t see it playing out around here, anyway. I don’t think the coming-on-courting-hard thing has much to do with me, btw. I think it’s much more to do with the men. They’ve hit reset, they feel they starting gun went off ages ago and they missed it, they think this is what they have to do to win: apply all available power. They haven’t really stopped to think hard about what “win” means, though, and whether it’s what they actually want.
@superunpleasantguy: yeah, actually, a lot of the older women I know aren’t just done with men, they’re done done.
@David Collard: don’t know where you’re posting from, but if it’s Europe…hm. On one hand, life’s not the insane steeplechase it is here for mothers, and maybe that makes a difference. On the other…I don’t know, I remember that even when I was a kid, European women were much more offhand about men than I was used to from American women, and there were a lot more of them living alone as if it were an ordinary thing to do.
think it’s going to be another generation or two, maybe, until men and women are accustomed to…well, just how much women can do, and want to do, and insist on doing. I think readjustment is necessary on both sides.
Um, no.
My relationship is not at all based on that. She is highly educated and professional, but she is the woman and I am the man, and frankly, that is how she wants it, as well as me.
The recipe you are describing simply means that the men who are desirable for marriage withdraw from marriage, and women are left with the beta submissives who want to hop to their wife’s demands in the house while she sires children with men who turn her on more. There won’t be many men who will sign on to that long-term, although there could be many who could be tricked into it short-term and then later get divorced. The reason is that there is no incentive for men to become women’s male wives. We can get sex and orgasms apart from a commitment to any one of you, now. So there is no incentive to sign up to become your role-reversal male bitches. And frankly almost NO women want that in a husband. So, no, I don’t see the future that way at all.
Another “Here today, gone tomorrow”…
Brendan is right. People have been bravely predicting role-reversed marriages for a hundred years. It won’t happen because it is not what the sexes want. There are a few marriages with “subhubs”, but they don’t seem to be very stable, if the relevant blogs are any indication. And it often turns out that the guy enjoys being cuckolded, because this is where they tend to end up.
I am recently retired, and my wife seems to have made an effort NOT to turn us into a role-reversed marriage. If women are hypergamous, which I think they are by all accounts, role-reversed marriages will never be the norm. A good subject for yet another article though, when the writer or journalist can’t think of anything better.
When I read stuff like yours, sarahj, I feel like saying: “Well, why don’t you ladies go off and start your own country somewhere on your own, without us ineffectual men to hold you back? Send me a postcard.”
To answer your question, I am in Australia, where men and women don’t seem to have been taught to hate each other yet.
As a sop to female vanity, I will add that my wife is 51, and I still enjoy fucking her. No doubt, this is partly because she is not a tiresome, entitled bitch.
David,
Good luck to you.
Whilst thinking that men and women get on well here, consider this.
One third of aussies will never marry
One third of those who do will divorce – usually at wifeys behest
Boys who survive the 100,000 abortions each year are more likely to be drugged into submission at school
Apprenticeship training is all but unavailable to most boys
Girls now outnumber boys in post school training, learning gender studies and other valued subjects
A degree or two is mandatory to compete in the white collar world
Cubicle life is governed by the matriarchy in hr
Most divorces are initiated by women
Men will lose most of their assets particularly if they had children
The ponzi scheme of superannuation and retirement benefits will be non existent in twenty years
Given these rather dismal facts, i wish you well but suggest your rosy perspective on australian gender relations is coloured by your own experiences. This is heavily criticised when women do the same.
Whilst i have been fortunate to avoid the financial and emotional shipwreck of divorce rape, i cannot deny statistical reality. Australia is a strongly misandric culture under a thin veneer of civility and politeness. That you havenot experienced this fails to disprove its existence.
an observer, we must agree to diifer.
differ.
Yep, Sarahj, continue to believe the same shit you’ve been fed from cradle to grave for the past 50 years. The debt piles up to finance these female entitlement schemes and yet the roles have not in any huge way reversed, instead women find themselves chasing fewer and fewer men, as their hypergamy spirals out of proportion and more men are marginalised from any meaningful career pursuits, thereby increasing the problem.
There will not be any American economy in 2027, probably sooner though, if the spending is not cut to zero in the next few years. Probably sooner as spending will not decrease but will probably increase if Obammy is re-elected. Not only that, but all social spending will have to be cut back, just to pay back the trillions in debt owed over the next 20 years or more. You really just don’t get it, it seems none of you feminist type, crackpot demoncrat, puke for brains, saggy vagina owners do. You’re beyond the pale, a vile, despicable, vanity laden, boring piece of human waste.
And my new name is awesome by the by! Superunpleasantguy, me likey!
Keep spinning that hamster you hawt, singlemammy, cougar! Pure awesomeness!
@Feminist Hater: “…saggy vagina owners….” Not sure if this is a generational thing, but virtually no guys today will date a woman if she doesn’t put out. From what I’ve seen, women who put out early and often are the ones that end up with boyfriends and husbands, if you don’t it’s a deal breaker. It’s just a little crazy seeing men put down women for sleeping around when they will not consider dating women who don’t. It’s just like when women lament not finding a nice guy, but actively chase jerks. Same deal.
“but virtually no guys today will date a woman if she doesn’t put out”
should read
“but virtually no guys that women only have eyes for today will date a woman if she doesn’t put out”
Fixed that for you.
Women don’t notice the men they aren’t attracted to.
They don’t count despite the efforts they make.
And most women can’t take rejection well, which is why they don’t ask men out.
Or they deflect it with the traditionalism “men must be the chasers” (so why do you call men with lots of female attention, players? They’re only seeking out the women who are able to accept their ways.).
Men don’t notice women they aren’t attracted to either. It works both ways. And some women do ask men out, risking rejection.
@Tracey
I, however, (along with most of Dalrock’s readers) will not date a woman if she does. I think a better statement here is “virtually none of the 20% hot alpha guys whom alone women will even consider dating, will date a woman if she doesn’t put out.” The twin demons of projection and the apex fallacy strike again.
In a proper culture, this is true. I personally prefer a woman who is willing to let me pursue her, rather than the other way around. This sets the table for the man’s leadership in the relationship, and tells me she might just possibly desire that leadership (whether she does nor not requires further investigation, but it’s a good start). That said, modern girls have lost the art of courtship. As we slide from civilization back to savagery, courtship goes with it.
Tracy, two words. Apex Fallacy. I’m also going to call a ‘Christian’ fallacy here. If a Christian guy is not willing to wait till marriage for sex, he ain’t a proper Christian. I know, this is tough Tracy, tough to understand, your hamster is running circles in your brain, trying to figure out, “why won’t that hot alpha do what I want? The only way to keep him is to sleep with him. Therefore I’m going to sleep with him!”. You don’t have the time, nor the energy to realise that about 80 % of guys do not fit the description of what 80% of women want. It is utter hogwash, a lie so profound, so diabolically not true, that there are “virtually no guys willing to wait for marriage to have sex with their VIRGIN wives”. Stop lying! The problem here is that guys are not willing to wait for sex for women NOT VIRGINS. Moral of the story, be a virgin if you want a Christian marriage!
If you go for the alphas, who in this day and age know they can get sex left, right, center and through the ground to China, if you ain’t going to put out for them, they will move on, rather quickly too. If you have sex with them, they will move on anyway, just after dumping you. The release of women’s collectively ability to unleash their hypergamic lifestyles and extend courtship forever, well, till they die anyway, has also released alphas to pursue sex with any women wiling. For alphas and women there are no more restrictions on their sexual appetites beyond their own moral scruples.
It’s really difficult to have to tell you this. Any women who puts out deserves what they get. They have a choice. They just want that alpha so badly that they’re willing to disregard their supposed morals and sleep with him. You will not get a pussy pity party from me. The whole feminism movement was to give women choice. Just because their own choice screws them over in the end, is not my concern. If you’re a virgin and a guy is not willing to marry before having sex with you. Find a better guy. NOW THAT’S A CHOICE!
If a girl has already given her pussy pass to numerous guys, then that girl needs to ask herself another question. Why should a guy wait for marriage to have sex with her, she’s already put out before? And that’s the cognitive dissonance women like you face.
A saggy pussy is a pussy wasted.
@david
About women starting their own country — a lot of us more or less do. We form communities and take care of ourselves and our jobs and our kids, and when some enterprising reporter does a story, men go batshit. To which my response is to shrug and say, well, then be nicer, and do as much work as we do, and we’ll want you around.
Otherwise: Oh, I get it. Y’all are just going nuts because, what with women getting good educations and good jobs and all, we don’t have to put up with this kind of shit attitude from men anymore, and increasingly we don’t. And rather than stopping and saying, “well, Christ, maybe I’m being a complete asshole to her, and should cut it out,” you can just rail about feminism and saggy vaginas instead (some of you have a funny notion of anatomy; vaginas don’t sag, though uteruses can prolapse if you have lots of kids) and have delusional wound-licking fantasies about sexual value and alpha/beta males. As women leave. What I thought, then. Carry on.
“About women starting their own country — a lot of us more or less do. We form communities and take care of ourselves and our jobs and our kids, and when some enterprising reporter does a story, men go batshit. To which my response is to shrug and say, well, then be nicer, and do as much work as we do, and we’ll want you around.”
BS
“Oh, I get it. Y’all are just going nuts because, what with women getting good educations and good jobs and all, we don’t have to put up with this kind of shit attitude from men anymore, and increasingly we don’t.”
Other women are getting jobs in HR, and determining whether YOU stay on or are asked to leave.
And as women make up more of the high earners, they’ll have to pay more of the tax.
Including the ones that make up paying for welfare.
Unless you plan on devaluing the currency or defaulting on debts.
Which carries its own fun too.
“Fate is not without a sense of irony”.
“delusional wound-licking fantasies about sexual value and alpha/beta males.”
If the alphas don’t want you, you have to go to the betas (Better hope they’re stupid). Or be alone in your life endeavour.
“Time in its course teaches all things” 🙂
“If a Christian guy is not willing to wait till marriage for sex, he ain’t a proper Christian.”
If you marry a player he doesn’t NEED sex from you.
And the kind of guy she rates as having “waited” is going to differ based on her judgement.
Player who encounters last minute resistance and says “Let’s wait” … she thinks to herself “He thinks we should wait. He’s RELIGIOUS! He’s waited enough! I need to give him his reward” = SEX.
Remember that Britney Spears said she was a virgin 🙂
Nice guy who says “Let’s wait” … she thinks to herself “Limpdick who isn’t confident enough to go further, I’ll get more dates out of him and then … “Let’s Just Be Friends””.
For many women, a guy means nothing to them unless they’ve had sex with him.
Which ties in neatly with the idea that you can’t turn a ho into a wife, since so many other guys previously are important to her.
If women who slutted around are not marriage material … why do other women think they should be given a chance (the NAWALT defence)? After all, the sluts are in competition with the good women for the good men … which may also mean that women think that good men are a fit for sluts.
I wonder how that makes other good men feel, that they are only suitable for women who see them as a last resort, fallback position, and fit to be lied to.
OH. MY. GAWD. Sarahj………..I laughed. I guffawed at the answers to your post. Thanks for the entertainment.
Thanks, P Ray, Feminist Hater, bskillet81 for your input. 🙂 I don’t go for jerk alphas (you can see my previous posts above somwhere), I’ve spent much of my time trying to find a good man to marry and lead a pious life with (I’m religious, though not Christian). I generally get approached by alphas, probably because they have more confidence in talking to women. I don’t want an alpha jerk, so I shut them down. I want a good, decent, beta with a good heart and a good head on his shoulders and that’s who I’ve been saving myself for. It sucks, though, because I’m still waiting for betas to either get all the “sleep-around-with-anything-that-moves” out of their system so that they are willing to settle down with ONE woman for life (this isn’t just an alpha problem – betas do it, too. except for betas, it’s more like a “wow – some girl actually gave me a shot, i wonder what else i’ve been missing out on?” thing and then suddenly they are acting like alphas), or for betas to finally have the courage/ self esteem to approach me (I try to put myself in positions to make it easier for them, but sometimes they are just so clueless or afraid to act). I know that part of the attraction for men is to “hunt” and be the “pursuer”, but it’s hard because the longer I’m on the sidelines, the less likely any guy is going to want me because I’ll be older. 😦 Oh well. I keep telling myself to have faith and to keep being a pure and kind/attractive woman, that I won’t be overlooked for the sexy (but loose) girls for much longer, the way I was in college. But I’m starting to look into other options now, since I feel that my time is running out. My back up plans are IVF or trying to go lesbian. It’s truly sad that it’s coming to this, but you have to play the hand that God deals. 😦
After reading over what I wrote – I can see that it sounds like I’m blaming men for my problems. Of course, I’m at fault – I’m always the common denominator. I’m waaaay too shy, quiet, (super) nervous around guys and not out-going enough – I’ve made it easy for guys to overlook me or forget about me. I’ve also been out of the dating scene for a few years, because I had some problems at home. I wish I could change this about myself, but there’s nothing I can do about it now. 😦
Sarahj,
If you wish to form self supporting communities to raise your fatherless, bastard spawn, go right ahead.
Also feel free to abstain from all forms of male support, such as wealth taken by force, the all too common pathetic gyno centric government sponsored jobs in HR or media, and forego the ongoing leeching off the productive, wealth generating efforts of the average betas that stump up cash to support your empowered choices, and who don’t live up to the five minutes of alpha that has messed up your pretty, though deluded, head.
Viva feminism. . .
Tracy, you need help really like yesterday. Get counseling as soon as possible.
“For many women, a guy means nothing to them unless they’ve had sex with him.”
This is my main problem now in the dating game. Tim Tebow can be chaste and get tons of female attention, but there is no way that will work for me. I have to make things sexual or I’m completely invisible to women. It is surreal to see that glass-eyed look women get when you put it on them right. Their whole demeanor changes. It is so hard to be chaste, and find a woman that really wants to be chaste also (not playing the celibacy game with me while getting sex from another guy), then holding the attraction of said chaste girl without having sex.
Trying to be celibate has so many pitfalls. Most of the time whatever interest I get from women dissipates when they realize I really am serious about not having sex with them. Then I have to worry about the women who don’t even really want me, but just use me as a last resort when they have nothing going on, or using me for favors.
lol. care to elaborate, GoodSense? 🙂
Tracey, no I don’t care to elaborate. If you don’t under that you need counseling, you will continually doing the same thing over and over.
On the subject of women forming their own self-sufficient matriarchal societies, the big question is: do cats like grass huts?
Doesn’t matter. Who would build them?
As far as women forming their own self-sufficient matriarchal societies. The only societies that were formed or built were by men. Women for the most part is only taking care of a house that has been built. At some point the house will have to be re-built and men rightful place again will be taken in societal order. Historically, women have never built or maintained any society or social order without men and they never will. We are now seeing the feminization of the Western world. This is in short due to the many inventions that have soften our daily lives. No place earth currently where this hasn’t happen you will see women as group calling the shots. Women can only be where they are today, only because of what men have done. I could go on about this, but the reality is that women power will peak. Just let one bomb drop in this country and you will start to see a change at that point. As for now, women still have made themselves sex objects. In the end, regardless of women status, real men will get what they want. And that is sex and generally with more than one woman. For now women are making that very easy for the men.
GoodSense: Thanks so much for your advice – I’m going to run out and do just as you say. Take care and best wishes. 🙂
Life is shorter for men, but sexually active life expectancy is longer.
Read more at the link below or just put the title above in your seach engine:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-03/uocm-lis030810.php
@TFH “How many actresses can still command big bucks for films after age 40? How man men can? Why did Harrison Ford and Sean Connery have much longer careers as headliners, than Demi Moore and Julia Roberts and Michelle Pfieffer did? ”
Actually….quite a few:
Halle Berry
Nicole Kidman
Sandra Bullock
Meryl Streep
Angela Basset
Cate Blanchett
Annette Bening
Julianne Moore
Jennifer Aniston
Jennifer Connelly
Jennifer Lopez
Cameron Diaz
Courtney Cox
Viola Davis
Tina Fey
Salma Hayek
Diane Lane
Laura Linney
Melissa Leo
Judy Dench
Helen Mirren
Michelle Pfifer
Julia Roberts
Susan Sarandon
Emma Thompson
Marisa Tomei
Naomi Watts
Rachel Weisz
Robin Wright
Moron
Madalyn: Where do you find your names (voice overs don’t count)?
http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?view2=worldwide&yr=2011&p=.htm
Cameron Diaz is there on place 28 with Bad Teacher, but she was 37 or 38 when it was filmed and she will not turn 40 until later this year.
Close to 50 year old Johnny Depp is the first older male I find on the poster, in no 3. The next is close to 50 Tom Cruise in no 5. Vin Diesel in no 6 is 45. Kristen Wiig is the first slightly older woman I find on he poster. No 21 and close to 40 YO.
But you are kind of right there are one two 40+ female actresses around mark 20 among the 40 best paid actors.
http://www.therichest.org/entertainment/vanityfairtop-40-highest-paid-stars-in-hollywood/
first of all, many women nowadays young and old, like to party a lot. the ones that have been married at one time, have grown children. many of them even at that age, are at the clubs where i go to and just want to have a good time and not meet anyone. but then again, with all the excess baggage they have, who would want to get involved with them anyway. i am in my late fifties myself, and finding it very hard to meet a good woman again. i was married at one time, but she turned out to be the FILTHY WHORE that i never knew. the problem today is that there are too many LOW LIFE LOSER GARBAGE WOMEN out there now than ever before. can’t BLAME myself for these type of ROTTEN WOMEN that are certainly out there now. i wish that i had been born years ago myself, then i could have met the right woman for me and even have the FAMILY that i always wanted to have, instead of trying to meet a woman that seem so DIFFICULT to meet now.
at Mark: “low life loser garbage women”….. You are meeting these women at clubs? i imagine that’s where you are going wrong – of course those women are looking for fun (they are at a CLUB!). If you are looking for respectable women, they aren’t hanging around clubs, drinking, and dancing with/going home with random men. Did it ever occur to you that maybe you are attracted to beautiful party animals? Maybe if you went for a woman who was a little more plain to look at, but had a good head on her shoulders and a kind heart, you’d have better experiences with women. Some (SOME!) men don’t take responsibility for the types of women they approach – they just follow their biological instincts (to land the hot, sexy chick), without considering how her morals/values and how she will treat him.
Have to agree with Tracey on that, complaining about meeting partiers at a club is akin to complaining there are only whores in a brothel.
Unfortunately mark is correct, most women want to have sex before forming a relationship
In fact most women, nowadays want to skip forming a meaningful bond with a man & go straight to sex
Living in the city, in London & the more traditional outskirts, I have yet to find an exception …
I’ve pretty much dated everyone from straight laced church girls, to upper middle-class women with their own, you go grrrl careers, not one exception …
The above is also why women usually have terrible advice on men AND women …
Also its almost impossible to screen women, when most women are basically sluts, & juggling multiple relationships with multiple men…
Whether its through serial monogamy, or being a whore, the difficulty of finding anything resembling a normal woman, is ridiculously difficult …
Which gets worse in the city & urban area’s …
Also men are FAR TOO responsible when it comes to picking women, to the extent most Beta’s become celibate, spending years looking for the ONE … instead of just settling for a mediocre relationship with a slut, until they find the ONE ..
Of course it doesnt help most sluts are toxic, & brainwashed to hate men & entitled princesses to the hilt …
Combine all of the above, & its quite clear why people like mark, complain about even the normal decency of regular women … ie there is no decency, even for regular women …
As ANY MRA or PUA or Gamer will tell you … They’re ALL LIKE THAT …
Guys don’t want to date or form relationships or bonds. That’s just nonsense. Guys run (RUN!) from girls that want to “wait for marriage” – it’s like having an extra limb. Even the most skinny, geeky, dorky betas in my class say they are not willing to wait more than a year max (definitely not long enough for marriage). Guys want to get laid – whether they are serious about you or not. If you don’t put out, they will move on to the next girl. We are all just disposable holes to men. Personality, values, morals, kindness – mean nothing to the young men of today if they are not backed up by casual sex. Sounds like this must be a generational thing. If any young men disagree – you are one in a million.
I anticipate men saying that they have no problem waiting for their pure bride. But how many of you are under 25? 30? Very very very few. Most men who value purity are older, in their 40s and up. Things are very different now.
MackPUA – I know lots of betas – and ALL of them are getting laid! The one with the bad breath, the one that is way overweight, the one with body odor, the one that’s really really skinny, the one that is short. ALL getting laid. No guy goes celibate looking for “the one” in this age.
Tracey,
I do, and I’m 21 years old. It’s definitely not one of the easiest things to do at least in British society (where I live). This is why I’m actually considering moving abroad because waiting for marriage here is uncommon. The opinions of certain Christian girls here can be interesting, I have encountered some that believe traditional values are backwards and too misogynist and not ‘progressive’ (and they don’t realise this progress is often in a way detrimental to themselves).
It’s such a shame, because it’s simply hard to regard women here as modest. I understand your points, but we have to distinguish between theory and reality. Men will always look to impregnate fertile females. And if women haven’t been taught to respect themselves they end up putting out for reasons like attention, gifts or because they have nothing better to do. Once you make that behavior legitimate it’s very hard to go back because people have become accustomed to that sex is a trivial thing.
I recently met a Muslim girl that wears the face veil, and not because she has to, but because she knows she’s valuable and she recognises that. I’m not saying all women should cover their faces, but this is the kind of self-respect women that is missing.
Hi Tracey,
I think it is true that it is much harder for a woman in your position to remain a virgin until marriage than it was in the past. There are a number of reasons for this, but I think what is key to remember is that men don’t have the incentive to foot the searching costs to the degree they used to. As I recall you are 29. This isn’t too old to marry, but by traditional standards it is quite old to be starting a husband search. You aren’t living the life of a traditional woman, and we unfortunately don’t live in traditional times. I assume you have seen my thoughts on the issue of searching costs. The reason I think this is so important is because if you can understand the problem you are in the best position to overcome it. This gives you an advantage over your competitors, who are the other women roughly your age and attractiveness looking to do the same. The men you want are out there, they just are as rare as you are. They are facing the same noise from the hookup culture that you are. So there won’t be a line of men waiting to court you in a traditional way. Unfortunately a large portion of the men you are looking for have likely dropped out of the “dating” market in discouragement. My advice to you would be the same as my advice to behindsilentwalls. Find a way to understand what your actual marriage prospects are and if those aren’t satisfactory (which you are saying they aren’t) find a way to increase the pool.
Part of what you can do is find a way to reduce the risk for the men who might be interested in what you are, but aren’t quite sold. From the man’s point of view a year’s worth of romantic investment in an unmarried 29 year old is much more risky than an 18 year old. He has no way of knowing that you really intend to marry, and more specifically that you really intend to marry him. After all, this is why you want the year, right? Taking your time and being sure you are ready to make and keep the vow is a very good thing, but I’m just pointing out that you expect him to pay the opportunity cost of not being with other women who will have sex with him while you decide if you want to marry him or not, especially since if he is around your age he is finally coming out of the SMP desert. There is also a financial cost for men in courtship which women tend to overlook. If you were a man your age with options, how many bites at the “court me with no sex for a year so I can decide if I want to marry you” apple would you be anxious to take? So my question here would be is there a way to shorten the time period you expect him to be off the dating market and exclusive to you while you decide if you want to marry him?
Others might have better ideas here, but one thought which comes to mind would be to find a serious and conservative church, and ask some of the elders if they could help match you with a man who is looking to marry under traditional terms.
As I recall you are in school to be a dentist. Keep in mind that for men this automatically comes with an increase in SMV/MMV which doesn’t occur for women. Just because they are your scholastic/professional peers, doesn’t mean they are automatically your MMV peers.
I know some of this is hard to hear, but that isn’t my intent. My hope is to help you find the absolute best husband you can in the shortest time possible. Don’t follow any advice from me or others if you believe it would hinder that goal.
So my question here would be is there a way to shorten the time period you expect him to be off the dating market and exclusive to you while you decide if you want to marry him?
After my own experiences, and the experiences of my friends, I haven’t seen any compelling evidence that adults dating for more than six months is helpful for determining whether someone will make a good spouse. I know there are exceptions, but in the end every choice is a chance. The longer time invested doesn’t seem to make the chance of a bad marriage shrink any, and very often it is worse because by the time they married one or the other already to the other for granted. It’s better, I think, to marry while you’re still in the heat of the moment.
Later, when things get rough, it’s good to have fun, happily married times to look back on for encouragement. I think this is why so many women think back to the dating days instead of the early part of the marriage: After two years of dating, how hot can it be?
The key to remember is that marriage is not perfect because it is made up of two imperfect people. I agree with Cane on getting married in the heat of the moment. My oldest daughter and her boyfriend have been together for just over a year and they are talking about getting married. Last month she called me with a few problems they are going through. I listened to what she had to say taking both sides into account, she was pretty honest about all sides of the issues, and I told her they sounded like an old married couple. I basically told her that they had to evaluate the depth of the commitment they had in their relationship. If they plan to marry they are going to go through similar issues and some that would be more difficult. They picked up some resources I’d suggested and are learning to work through things together.
You will pretty much know these things about a person way before the one year mark. Taking longer isn’t going to really reveal anything more than what every couple goes through.
@Cane Caldo
This strikes me as very good sense, and the last paragraph touches on why I’m so adamant that women not marry a man they haven’t fallen head over heels in love with. If they do so, they won’t have those good times to look back on. On the other hand, it takes time to really know who someone is. I’ve heard the suggestion to not marry a man she hasn’t observed in all four seasons. Some of this you can get from others, but often people are reluctant to share negative information on others. The answer I think is to know and observe the man socially for a period before getting involved. In fact, if she does this she will be better able to make an unbiased assessment of his personality and character.
Thanks, Dalrock. I’ve never had to put a guy through the “wringer” and make him give up sex to court me. I know sex is HUGELY important to young men of today (elemental is an anomaly – like me). I know we’ve talked about virtue earlier in this post, but every time I read a comment by men on here about how “slutty” or “loose” women are today, I feel like it’s true and men helped to facilitate it. There’s been MANY times when I felt that just “giving it up” would VASTLY increase my dating pool. So it frustrates me to hear men complain about slutty or loose women and act innocent as if they had absolutely no hand in creating this culture (meanwhile, probably benefiting from this culture in short-term affairs).
I don’t really know all the details of “market value”. I just assume that as I get older the looks/fetility will go and fewer guys will be interested in me. The older a guy gets and is more steady in his career, the more women (younger and older than me) will go for him. Regardless of the details, I know that odds are against me.
I don’t know how to increase my pool, as you suggest. A small part of me has just given up. I’m so used to being passed up. I do get attention for my looks, but in my “hay day” of teens/early 20s, I’d get passed up for girls who would “go farther” than me and now I’m getting older and I’m going to get passed up because I’m “past prime”. What’s the point in trying? 😦
Sorry that was very “boo hoo, woe is me”. It’s just frustrating – the truth sucks.
I’ve read the comments by Tracey and I want to disagree as it seems like she wants to place the fault of today’s women beinging sluty and loose on men. Men have always been the aggressor, the hunter, whatever you want to label it with the expectations of getting sex. It has always in the hands if the women to say yes or no and she carried the control in the decision. What happened was since the feminist movement and women wanting to be more like men, women decided to ease up and offer sex to entice the men and to not drag out the timeline now it’s become a competition formulated by women against each other to make sex a tool to win over or trap a man. So yes. En do expect it because women have offered it up so freely to gain advantage over other women to the point that now sex to men is an expectation because if you don’t put out, someone else will. Supply and demand. So blame your other females for that circular disaster created by themselves.
Dalrock, you were doing okay in your advice until you got to this point: ‘but one thought which comes to mind would be to find a serious and conservative church, and ask some of the elders if they could help match you with a man who is looking to marry under traditional terms.’
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I am long attention church guy and I am considered an elder. Matching up a young couple isn’t one of the best skills through a church elder(s) is recommended from all of my experiences.
edit from above. I am writing when I am very busy.
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I am a long attending church guy and I am considered an elder. Matching up a young couple isn’t one of the best skills through a church elder(s) is recommended from all of my experiences.
Goodsense:
I went back up and read your first posts on May 5 in which you commented that you are a married man who admittedly pursues and has relationships with other women.
With all due respect, you’re not in any position to be dispensing advice to Tracey, or anyone else, for that matter.
@ Tracey:
“I know we’ve talked about virtue earlier in this post, but every time I read a comment by men on here about how “slutty” or “loose” women are today, I feel like it’s true and men helped to facilitate it. *** So it frustrates me to hear men complain about slutty or loose women and act innocent as if they had absolutely no hand in creating this culture (meanwhile, probably benefiting from this culture in short-term affairs).”
__________
“Men” did not help to facilitate sluthood or “loose” women. A FEW men helped facilitate sluthood. Even worse are the sluts who lie about it and feign innocence, mimicing the conduct and demeanor of “nice girls”.
This is one of the primary problems of the SMP for men. We know what we want. We know we want high value, quality women who are willing to give us the best of themselves. The problem is, we don’t know who those women are at first, second or even tenth glance. It’s getting increasingly difficult to discern who is high quality and who is not. This is why the “searching costs” Dalrock talks about are important and why men seek to reduce them as much as possible. It’s expensive, in time, money, and lost opportunities, for a man to date a woman. Every date with you is an opportunity lost with someone else. He is giving up Jane down the street to spend time with you. What if it doesn’t work with you, and it might have with Jane? Every date with you costs time and money – time and money which, if it doesn’t work with you, could be more profitably spent on other things.
Another thing to keep in mind is that sluthood and “loose women” are a direct result of advancing technology and feminism, and their cultural, political and social effects. It started with increasing automation of the home and workplace; women entering the work force in droves during and after WWII; a booming postwar economy; cheap, safe and effective birth control; the legalization of abortion in 1973; and has ended with the liberalization of divorce laws. Feminism concluded that women are equal to men in every way. Thus, feminism said, women can work like men and have sex like men. There are no longer any stigmas upon premarital sex for women. That has been completely shamed out of society. There are no cultural or social restraints on premarital sex. The potential for unplanned pregnancy has been drastically reduced.
The reason I disagree that “all men” created the current mess is this: when women have complete access to premarital sex, they all gravitate toward the most attractive men. The vast majority of men lose out.
It’s easy for average women to get the top, most attractive alpha men. All she has to do is offer sex. Those top men in turn find their sexual options dramatically increased. They can easily have sex with women in the middle of the sexual marketplace, i.e. the women with ranks of between 4 and 7. Most women fall into this ranking. The top men with ranks of 8, 9 and 10 (about 15% of men) can have any kind of sex they want: one night stands and short term relationships, or LTRs if they want. The most attractive women, 8s 9s and 10s, find themselves competing for the best men with women clearly beneath them in rank. An alpha 9 man will not marry a 5 woman. At best she will get the 9 alpha for a night or three of sex. In a more normal assortative mating SMP, a 9 alpha wouldn’t give a 5 woman a second look. But in this SMP, when sex is on offer, the 9 alpha will take the offer of sex. The big winners in this SMP are the top men and the sluts.
The big losers are the so-called beta men – men with sex ranks at 4 to 7, the natural counterparts of the women slutting it up with the alphas. These beta men can’t get dates to save their lives. The 4 to 7 women are hoping against hope that they’ll turn an alpha and get him to marry her, almost always unsuccessfully. The 8-10 women won’t look at the betas, because they can and do hold out for the alphas.
The other big losers are the most attractive women who hold out for their natural counterparts. They won’t date beneath their sex rank, and certainly won’t marry beneath it. These most attractive women lose out because they’re too much trouble for the alphas. Why should a 9 alpha work hard for the affections of a female 9? This is a man who can sleep with a soft harem of 6s who don’t demand “proper dates”, give him sex on demand, don’t hassle him, and who can be replaced if they do hassle him.
So that’s why I don’t agree that “men” created this mess
Really! I am in the best position, because I deal with the real world and people like you who think they can tell people what they can and cannot do based your values. I think you may be the one who aren’t in a position to advise anyone because of your limited life. Just tell me how my relationships with others women eliminates me as the best person to give advice on this very issue. I have know and judge the character (pick out) the right woman who is willing to have that relationship with me. I know what a lot of men are about and what a lot of women are about. Again, I could a better job on this issue than you in my sleep.
I should add my email was to deti.
In any case, I disagree with long rant above. For the very reason that there is more than enough women to go around and there isn’t enough women to go around. Also, women don’t assess men on the same scale of 1 to 10 the same as men assess women. As you indicated, women are so damn easy to get, most men wouldn’t have a problem if they just get up the nerve to go after her. Sure he may get rejected on a few, but the ones’ he get will come through for him. And that’s all a man needs to know.
@Tracey
I’ll leave the apex fallacy aside (Deti covered it well above), and focus on the men who share your objective. Men who want to marry before having sex have the same basic problem you do; they have to find women with the same goal when the majority of the “market” is populated with people with other goals. On top of that, they have to watch out for women who would suck up their attention, time, and resources and not actually marry them. Additionally, very few “traditional” women actually are looking for traditional marriage. See my last five posts for an understanding of this. It doesn’t begin and end with a woman who saves her virginity for the wedding night. All I’m suggesting is that you be extremely practical in your approach to finding a husband. In doing so you will likely have to give up many common expectations on your enjoyment in the process. If your goal is having lots of fun and exciting dates and “relationships”, from a practical perspective you are right putting out will be essential. If your goal is to stick to your values and save sex for a traditional marriage, you will have to be more flexible.
Goodsense:
Yes, really. Perhaps you have relationships with your wife and other women, but what you don’t have is a marriage. Whatever it is that you have, it isn’t marriage as I understand it to be. Therefore, you are in no position to advise people on marriage.
Your calling yourself a “church elder” lends no credibility to your advice. Does your pastor know of your “relationships”? Do the other elders know? Does your wife know?
I tell no one what they can and cannot do. I give my opinions. People can take or leave them as they wish.
@Deti
I’m not buying it. TrollSense is lying about one or the other, and very possibly both.
Tracey, just want to try to encourage you. Have been where you are, was in my late 20’s when I met my husband. Never dated hardly at all.Had pretty much given up at that point and decided I would just go on some dates for fun and to get out and meet some people. first date I went on “just for fun” and met my husband. It was a bad first date and I pretty much decided I would not go out with him again. Obviously I did and by date three I knew he was “it”. So sorry you are having this struggle, I know how much it sucks to feel like you are going to be on the shelf forever.
@Alarm I watch a lot of movies. I occasional write entertainment pieces for celebrity websites. I keep up with who’s who. For good measure, here a few more…..
Helena Bonham Carter
Glenn Close
Jodi foster
Diane Keaton
Jane Lynch
Frances McDormand
Sarah Jessica Parker
Tilda Swinton
Sigourney Weaver
Diane Weist
Amy Pohler
Debra Messing
Helen Hunt
Renee Zellweger
Sophie Marceau
Uma Thurman
Mary Steenbergen
Joan Allen
Blythe Danner
Jamie Lee Curtis
Famke Janssen
I’ve left out many, by the way……
“complaining about meeting partiers at a club is akin to complaining there are only whores in a brothel.”
Um no.
Good girls AND bad girls go to clubs.
Good girls AND bad girls go to church.
It’s certainly a reason why there is AT MOST a 12% difference in divorce rates between the devout Christians and others.
I suspect the reason why people love to say there’s a venue for good and pure women …
is simply so that the guy gets passed from one section of being taken for a chump, to another.
And I’m also betting that speaking out against loose and slutty women is something most churches are too scared to address.
I’m pretty sure even Dalrock would like to know about such churches. Where the spoken language is English.
To say men are “meeting the wrong women” is to place the blame on the men …
when it’s the women who choose whether to be in a relationship or not.
Since most men are NOT the ones who have their pick of women. Looks like an apex fallacy conclusion, from women.
A girl at a club is not likely seriously looking to meet marriage material, good or bad. When I was single, I wasn’t hanging out in bars looking for a guy because it would lower the odds for what I wanted to find. goodness and pureness totally aside, where do you think you are more likely to find a serious girl? And I don’t mean church because I think the odds are pretty low there also. If you want to hunt deer you don’t buy yourself a fishing boat and complain of the lack of bucks on the ocean. Just saying.
@The Antigrrrl:
“A girl at a club is not likely seriously looking to meet marriage material, good or bad.”
“goodness and pureness totally aside, where do you think you are more likely to find a serious girl? And I don’t mean church because I think the odds are pretty low there also.”
Thanks for proving my point.
Do you have any answers besides repeating what I said?
you had an actual point other than pointing out the obvious was engaging in apex fallacy?
I had a point in that you argue that nowhere are girls looking for anything serious (Well then, enjoy the players — they give you what you want)
Which, coming from a woman in a relationship (“when I was single”) or is not looking …
really means nothing to me.
So-called “nice girls” saying “be nice be yourself” …
also means nothing to me,
since there are more not nice girls, than there are nice girls,
and very often the “nice girls” are the ones who use their supposed “innocence” as a cover for asking for favours from guys, then getting annoyed if they’re either asked to pay or reciprocate.
“I had a point in that you argue that nowhere are girls looking for anything serious”
I never said that, I said that there are some places that girls are obviously not looking for something serious, and going to these places and complaining that the party girls are actually just looking to party is somewhat silly.
Check your statements The Antigrrrl.
Your gynonormativity is showing.
Maybe I should put this in a non gender way then….if you want to meet fellow hard rock fans, don’t go to the symphony. I’m pretty sure there might be one or two people who like metal there but you lower your odds considerably. Speaking from a purely statistical point of view, you are better off looking at a metal concert. “OMG, there are like no nice guys at the frat party, they are all just players! All men suck!”
I don’t dispute that the odds are stacked against men who want to meet decent women, I was just pointing out that there are ways to improve the odds.
Odds are stacked against men who want to meet decent women,
when the women have become decent only by being indecent first. “I want to experience everything” is a good tell.
Women who only consider men through a narrow spectrum, deserve the heartbreak that comes from keeping that man that meets her list, from her other rivals who may have more of what he wants.
Just as we hear “men don’t own women” … vice-versa.
Men who are decent, should be aware and make enquiries, that the woman he’s with is actually decent … just as women run credit checks on guys they date 🙂
Equality. It’s what women wanted.
Besides, chivalry is too expensive nowadays. Few women are willing to live on the salary of a single average man. So they should have no problem contributing to the tab, since they were previously kept away from work outside the home. That’s simply not right in this day and age, they need to put their education to good financial use. 🙂
P Ray: Do you go clubbing? How old are you and exactly what types of clubs are you going to? I’m relatively young and I know the types of girls who go clubbing and the types that don’t. In my experience, they actually DO fall into nice, neat little piles of slutty and non-slutty (I’m talking about girls who make it a regular habit). I have yet to have a single devoutly Christian girlfriend who goes to clubs just to NOT dress up like a skank, NOT drink, NOT dance with random guys, NOT make out with them on the dance floor, and NOT go home with them afterwards. If you aren’t going to do any of those things (as a devout Christian shouldn’t), what’s the point in going? If you are above 30 and do not frequent the nightclubs that 20 year olds hit nowadays, you may be too removed from the issue. The college clubbing scene is a meat market, plain and simple. No disrespect intended, just my two cents. 🙂
Antigrrrl: Thanks for your kind words – they mean a lot to me. 🙂 It is a genuinely frustrating and disheartening situation to be in. Your story is inspirational though – I hope that I luck out as you did.
Madalyn: I adore Tina Fey! She’s smart, funny, and seems so humble, and gracious. She may lack the “spankable” factor that men seem to value in actresses, but I think she’s great.
All the gentlemen: I get that women do choose to be “slutty” and I didn’t mean to put the blame on men. I guess I feel that there is little consequence for being slutty, because guys will still date and marry you even if you are. It’s fine and normal for guys to want to get laid as much as they can, but when they actually MARRY women like that, there’s no negative repercussions. I know a lot of you will say that you will not marry women like that, but a lot of you are of a different age cohort and moral caliber than the typical young man today. For example, I have a friend who lost her virginity at 14! She was well in double digits in her “P into V count” by the time she hit 20. Did I mention she considers herself a devout Christian? Yet by her mid-20s, she married her current husband (yes, they did sleep together before marriage – both Christians), and they are now living happily-ever-after with their three kids. She rode the carousel fervently and it didn’t count against her at all. I’ve seen it happen with other girls, too. I envy them – I’m doing the moral thing and I may never have the family they have. Virtually all of my male peers are fine with unchaste brides and honestly question the existence of virgins past college (as if it’s “freakish”). Dalrock is quite right, the men who expect more out of their women are a very small minority. There is no incentive to “not be a slut,” because men are still willing to marry sluts and the access to a content boyfriend is actually beneficial. The idea that men prefer chaste women is archaic and may have been valued in previous decades, but not in this one. The age of first marriage is being pushed back further and further due to “delayed adulthood” (kids staying in school longer to get multiple degrees to be competitive in job market and delaying settling down) and the likelihood of a chaste bride or groom is zilch. Again, I’m not blaming men for women becoming sluts, it’s just that their is no penalty for being a slut.
Deti: Nice point about relationships vs marriage.
Dalrock: You sound like a good dad.
I go clubbing. And here’s some thing to twist your mind: I don’t drink.
It’s an environment all its own, and I’ve saved a few guys from taking home UGs and warpigs. (Somebody has to throw back the grenades) 🙂
One guy who was the national Tae-Kwon-Do representative for his country later thanked me. 🙂
(Don’t pity me, I’ve been propositioned by sluts before and turned them down. I’m better than that.) 🙂
I have seen a single devoutly Christian girl who goes to clubs, dresses up like a skank, drank, danced with random guys, made out with them on the dance floor, “go home with them afterwards..”(I did not follow her, but I observe she had 5 boyfriends over 2 years). She sang for a tsunami relief concert. That’s a “short” story.
If you aren’t going to do any of those things (as a devout Christian shouldn’t), what’s the point in going?
Police go undercover as criminals. I wonder why they do that.
Good men have to go into dens of iniquity, to observe the depravity first-hand.
P.S.
It seems like clubs are “meat markets only for 20s” where men are concerned.
I’ve seen grannies at clubs, looking for fresh meat.
They are looking for “grave robbers” 🙂
P Ray: “I have seen a single devoutly Christian girl who goes to clubs, dresses up like a skank, drank, danced with random guys, made out with them on the dance floor, “go home with them afterwards..”(I did not follow her, but I observe she had 5 boyfriends over 2 years). She sang for a tsunami relief concert. That’s a “short” story.”
“I’ve seen grannies at clubs, looking for fresh meat.”
You said earlier that “GOOD and BAD girls” go to clubs, but you’ve only listed bad girls in your above response. Any girl can call herself devout, but if she has 5 boyfriends in 2 years – she probably isn’t good in the eyes of God. Just backs my point, it is easier to find bad girls at clubs than truly good girls. If you really want a good girl, you are doing nothing to increase your odds of finding one by hitting a club. That should be obvious.
The amount of assumptions in your reply are funny.
I’d love to tell more of my personal stories, about why even the girls you meet who go to church (besides these “obvious bad” ones) are no less capable of telling lies to you or generally acting in a really shitty way.
But I can see you’ve got a set impression of who I am and how I choose to approach women I consider worthwhile (hint: not many at all).
However, being not invested in getting their attention (the flip side of being a nice guy means you are quite indifferent to other girls) gets their phone numbers so easily.
I actually got a phone number from one who was talking to a player … she said “I’m giving you my number because he’s not giving me attention”.
My reply?
“I’m not your drama machine”.
P.S. That 5 boyfriends? was what I observed from a girl who hid things poorly. Others do a _much_ better job.
Tracey, your friend’s path is not yet run. Don’t be jealous yet. In general, it sounds like you need to change your peers. Why is the slut-wife still your friend? It’s not ok for men to sleep with her, but it’s ok for you to enable her?
There is no incentive to “not be a slut,” because men are still willing to marry sluts and the access to a content boyfriend is actually beneficial.
If that’s the sort of man you want, then your choice is clear.
I am sympathetic (and I think more men go through this than you) but sympathy won’t get you anywhere. Dalrock’s advice is sound.
Cane Caldo: How am I enabling her? I met her at school when we were randomly paired up by the teacher to be partners for a project. She was polite and kind to me – still is. We are not close friends (you’ve overestimated that), but the nature of our relationship isn’t the point – the point is that I KNOW girls who are sluts who DO prosper in the end. I have never condoned her behavior and have often spoken out on it. She knows where I stand and gradually disclosed less and less of her escapades to me. I do think it is “un-Christian” to turn your back on someone because of their flaws and weaknesses. I wouldn’t turn my back on a friend if they had a drinking problem, either. I wouldn’t want my son/brother dating a girl like that, but that doesn’t mean I can’t show her good faith and platonic love as a fellow human being. Isn’t that what God expects of us? You seem to allude that me being friends (really, acquaintances) with her justifies guys sleeping with her. I shouldn’t have to tell you that human decency towards one another is not in the same realm as consensual sex. Anyway, she is not an anomaly – there are plenty of girls like her out there and most of them are partnered up and becoming mommies. You’re right – sympathy will get me nowhere, but I just felt compelled to clarify the reality of dating for younger people today and how high in demand sluts have actually become, despite men lamenting that they despise sluts.
Tracey:
You make a good point about sluts still being able to get married without consequence, and your wife-slut friend’s marriage.
Cane is right. Her course hasn’t yet run. Several things about this come to mind.
1. Your married slut friend has severely damaged, if not destroyed, her pair bonding ability. I’d bet good money she isn’t really bonded to her husband and doesn’t really love him. Another thing – I bet her husband is a beta who would have her after she was done on the carousel and figured out her hot alpha BFs had other options that didn’t include her. At the very least, she likely still pines for her alpha douchebag ex boyfriends who would sex her, but wouldn’t marry her. It’s also a pretty good bet that her husband doesn’t know all the truth about his wife’s past, either. This is all likely to cause problems for them down the road. At some point she will probably look at her husband, children, and comfortable life, declare that she is “not haaaaaaappy”; force him into the spiral of counseling, separation and divorce; and get her cash-and-prizes parachute. Mark my words – you heard it here first.
2. Yes, sluts can still get married. Men have been absolutely pounded over the head with feminism’s lies that women and men are exactly the same; that women can have sex like men and suffer no ill effects; that more sexual experience is good; that a woman’s sexual experience must never ever be held against her; and that women are always good. Men are told that women are only looking for husbands and that they never engage in sex for its own sake.
3. Men are also told that if a woman has racked up a high partner count, she’s not a slut; but rather is sexually experienced and that that inures to her husband’s benefit. She is not a slut, she was “exploring her body” and “finding herself” and she has “sown her wild oats” and is “ready to settle down for a good husband”. Men are told never to shame sluts because shame is negative. If you shame a woman for her sexual behavior, then you are a knuckle dragging Neanderthal backwards ass redneck hick chauvinist pig asshole who wants to chain women to kitchens and keep them barefoot and pregnant. The sisterhood will notify your parents, your siblings, your employers (past, present and future), your friends, the local police, the county sheriff, the FBI, INTERPOL, and every other governmental agency that you are a sex criminal. “If a man can sleep around, then why can’t I do the same thing?” “How DARE you judge me, you pinch-faced moralist bastard!” “Remove that beam from your eye before you DARE try to remove a speck from my eye, you narrow-minded hypocrite!” I’m overstating it a lot, but the attitude really is there – no one DARES shame a slut. EVER.
4. And advantage goes to hot sluts, too. A woman who knows she is being judged primarily on her physical appearance can use this to great advantage, even if she’s let an entire football team run train on her. Lots of men will still wife up a good looking woman even if hubby is the sloppy 22nds or even 42nds.
Tracey, I appreciate your honesty in accepting the fact that men did not cause women to become sluts that in fact it was the competition among them that created it. As for your slut friend who did marry and her slutness didn’t penalize her, I am certain her husband was not aware of her history or track record for my experience has shown me that women and men rarely to almost never are honest as to the number of sexual partners they have had because they too acknowledge that it is detrimental to them if there prospective mate where to know the actual numbers. As for Christian in name but certainly not in action or belief!
Tracey:
“I just felt compelled to clarify the reality of dating for younger people today and how high in demand sluts have actually become, despite men lamenting that they despise sluts.”
Sluts are in demand solely for sex, not marriage. No man wants to knowingly wife up a slut.
Another thing to consider, besides my previous comment, is that men who marry sluts are often betas without options, or who don’t know their options. Most men live in sexual desolation until their late 20s. They might be fit, have good jobs, earn good money, and be solid upstanding men. But because their sexual market values have not peaked, they can’t even get dates, much less sex. So when they are emerging from their years in the sexual desert, along comes a carousel rider in her mid to late 20s who would have laughed in his face 5 years before; but is now quite interested. For the man’s part, he’s elated to get any attention at all. And he’s surprised at how easy the sex comes.
What he doesn’t know is that he’s just the latest in a long line of men. She’s finally got the message: Alpha McGorgeous will sex her but will never marry her; Harley McBadboy has moved on to hotter, younger and tighter pastures; and F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer is in and out of her life. That won’t do. She needs stability, dependability, kindness. A soft landing. She’s now got it in Eddie Steadyman, with his $60K cubicle job and slightly used Camry Hybrid. All she has to do is agree to a few free meals blowjob on date 2, spread her legs on date 3 or 4; demand a ring and a date in a year or so, and she’s in like Flynn.
That’s how it works, Tracey.
Deti – This all sounds so depressing. 😦 I don’t wish any ill will on her – I hope she’s changed her ways and can keep it together for the sake of her hubby and kids. But you’re right, our true nature often leads to our own undoing in time. The whole ageism thing is also depressing. I’m trying my best to improve myself looks-wise and to keep an optimistic outlook on finding that special man that will wait AND be happy with my “past prime” self – but that’s incredibly hard, too. Double 😦 There are no young religious men my age in my area to be fixed up with by elders – I’m on my own. I guess you just have to play whatever cards that God deals and go with faith.
Gerald – I bet you are right! There’s no way she came clean about her past! That’s sad, too. I can’t imagine starting a marriage off on lies – that would be a double dishonor to your husband. 😦 Also, just so you know, some of the most scandalous young women I know are “devout” and very active in their church (the bad behavior happens away at school, far from home/church). Watch who your little kids look up to within your church congregation – you never know what some of these women are like behind closed doors. I don’t mean to slander, obviously not all young women are like that, but I’ve seen enough at school to never take someone at face value.
“If you really want a good girl, you are doing nothing to increase your odds of finding one by hitting a club. That should be obvious.”
Did I say I was dating that girl?
Good girls AND bad girls go to clubs.
She was good as long as you didn’t know what she got up to in the clubs.
I found this blog through a google search …. and was very impressed with many of the posts here – sincere, not trash.
My own story is that I am in my early 60s, my wife a year younger. We are true soulmates … married for over 35 years with two wonderful children that are off on their own now.
I really can’t remember 5? 10? years ago Rosella started off with “the curse” … by far the most obnoxious part was the hot flashes. After every know ‘cure’ has been tried … nothing works, and the sweats come reagularly at least once a day. Who knows when or if it will end.
Now … if my wife had a terminal illness of the worst kind …. I would stay constantly by her side … as she would for me (once she unfortunately had too … but that did pass). Before this all started we had a very complete and gratifying sex life … as I have heard before … it was a magical bond between us.
Now my wife’s weak or only occasional interest in sex is very painful to me … and I wish I had some way of coping with all this stuff beter. Saying I would stay with her regardless … does not mean I want her to have a terminal disease. Finally, I refuse to give in and say our “normal” sex life is over. This is a burden for her as well … I know.
We have tried a number of tricks … but anyone want to try to come up with the definitive list of over the hill turn-ons … given that hot flashes may never go away?
Deti, Dalrock, et al. I have another question for you: how do you know if the grounds for ‘rejecting’ a guy are reasonable or unreasonable? I’ve done as you advised in meeting men and giving everyone a chance (just as I hope them to give ME a chance!), but I find myself unsure of whether I could forge a future with them. I have misgivings with some of these men because: they have a health condition, they are a different religion, they come from a different country (different upbringing), a couple of them look like former “serial daters” or “players” that are looking to settle down now. I hope these are good reasons to keep looking.
I find the last type of guy the most troubling because they drop all these “key words” and compliments to make you think they are reformed and marriage-minded, but I don’t know that you can change yourself that easily…. I also find it troubling how easily they can talk to me, how smoothly their conversation flows – it makes me doubt their sincerity and motives. How many other girls do they talk to like this? Or is it normal for them to be forward when talking to women (most of them are around 30 and probably have had life experience)?
But then part of me wonders: what makes a “player”? To me, every guy is generally much more “experienced” than me. Most guys try to hook up and get laid when they are young. I figure that’s just how guys are. But should I penalize guys who are more successful in getting laid (former players) more than guys who were less successful but still wanted the same thing (regular betas)? Aren’t all guys players to some extent (at least when they are young)?
Am I being too judgmental and precluding possibly good guys?
A sexual history isn’t necessarily bad for a man the way it is for a woman. It doesn’t literally damage them emotionally. Unless his exploits are legendary and very recent, he could easily be ready to honestly “settle down.” A guy with multiple past partners is perfectly capable of deeply committing to (and bonding with) one woman. If you’re wondering whether or not he’s really done “playing,” that’s a tougher one to figure out. My suggestion: look for signs of emotional maturity and overall stability. How does he treat his family and friends? How do they treat him? How do they treat YOU? That’s about all I can offer, but I’ll bet the gentlemen here have more useful perspectives.
@Tracey,
This is a very involved question, and I only have a bit of time to offer an answer now. Suz has already weighed in though and hopefully Deti will offer his thoughts as well.
You aren’t wrong for being cautious here. Too much alpha is a dangerous thing in a husband. You need enough alpha for him to be attractive to you and a successful driver in the world, but alpha comes with its own set of risks and drawbacks. You need a husband whose judgment you can trust and whose fidelity you can stake your children’s future on. If he naturally tends to game the other women in the room, enough to make you uncomfortable, you need to consider this. Likewise with a past history as a player or indications of high level of alpha risk taking tendencies (gambling, addiction, etc). On the other hand I wouldn’t suggest is marrying a man you aren’t able to truly fall in love with (not alpha enough), nor do you want to reject men who are a good fit for marriage to make a point regarding the double standard (see Suz’s comment above).
@Tracey
I forgot that men and women give different weight to the word friend.
This is why I think the male way is better:
Also, just so you know, some of the most scandalous young women I know are “devout” and very active in their church (the bad behavior happens away at school, far from home/church). Watch who your little kids look up to within your church congregation – you never know what some of these women are like behind closed doors. I don’t mean to slander, obviously not all young women are like that, but I’ve seen enough at school to never take someone at face value.
Part of how we judge a person’s character is who they keep as friends. Just as Suz observes how he treats his family as friends, we give weight to who the friends are. Take care of the company you keep. What does the light have to do with darkness?
On finding a mate: Find a guy you like (preferably after watching him in social settings for a bit), have your parents and (real, likeminded) friends vet him, and make a promise to yourself to listen to their judgment.
@Suz
I would say it this way:
A sexual history isn’t as damaging for a man the way it is for a woman. It often doesn’t literally damage them emotionally…A guy with multiple past partners is usually capable of deeply committing to (and bonding with) one woman.
This is because, generally, men take keeping commitments more seriously; emotional damage/baggage or not.
If you’re wondering whether or not he’s really done “playing,” that’s a tougher one to figure out.
This, of course, being the problem with a guy who has been a player. There’s a good chance even he doesn’t know for sure he’s done. How much variety is too much? If he’s high value (6′, 6 figures, exciting job, etc.) plenty of women are throwing themselves at him. When he marries, this is intensify in some ways because he’s gained at least a patina of responsibility, too.
Hard as this part may be to hear: the same mechanisms are at work in those scenarios where one spouse cheats, and the other stays. Women stay because they’re still in love the bastard; men stay because they made a commitment to the bitch. So, women should pick men they are in love with from top to bottom; for should the worst happen, you’ll be inclined to work it out. Men should pick women with impeccable self-control; because the worst is unbearable, yet men are loathe to end commitments.
I am speaking generally, but it’s a solid baseline.
Thanks, Cane, You’re right.
@TRACEY, I agree with all the comments posted in reply to your question. I will offer my own experience. I have gone through quite a few relationships (friends advise me against taking all women I met to the point of considering it a relationship) but what can I say that I took each commitment seriously and with the intention and had the actions and atitude that I would formulate a marriage if it worked with any of them. Thus am I a player? I dont consider myself one. Ecause my intentions were true with each one. Plus the majority of them ended because the females ended it not I. Even with the last one who as stated was a devot Christian and after she ended it went back to her Ex so apparently he must have entered the picture for Inc her to make a decision, because remaining faithful to your current boyfriend of numerous months and the commitment or having two BF wouldn’t be Christian now would it? But even through all that I still remain true to my desire to offer a serious commitment to the right one. Unfortunately the quality of woman out there does want it even though they cry stating that’s what they want
Tracey:
I am not sure I have much more to add than everyone else.
You’re right to be concerned about whether you can make it work with someone of a different religion or culture. As a Christian I knew I’d never be able to marry someone of a different faith tradition — just too much difference. Culture and faith tend to be deeply ingrained in the way we lead our everyday lives. Not very changeable and if I had tried to change or tried to cajole someone else into changing, it would lead to resentment.
You need a man with the right mix of alpha and beta for you. Too much alpha, and one of two things will happen: (1) he won’t commit or he’ll cheat; or (2) you will take a distant backseat to whatever else he deems important. Too much beta, and any attraction you have will fade eventually; and you’ll come to resent him.
Now having said all this about alphas, I’d just point out that if a man is truly ready to settle down, and he makes a commitment, that’s it. It’s a settled question.
But, you’re correct to be concerned about pickup alphas running beta comfort game. I told you several dozen comments up that you would be prime fodder for this kind of alpha. Beware the man who tries to close the deal early on sex. If he’s pushing hard for full on P in V sex at date one or two, he reads you for an easy mark for beta comfort game and thus is not a long term candidate.
But if you have a guy who hasn’t made a single move by date 5 or 6, that’s probably too beta. Maybe the big D will disagree with me, but today, a man should be pushing for some physical intimacy pretty early on.
Good to hear you’re putting yourself out there to meet men.
“Maybe the big D will disagree with me, but today, a man should be pushing for some physical intimacy pretty early on.”
This belief that pushing for “physical intimacy” is a valid part of Christian courtship is very very unfortunate. Let me just say that as far as Catholicism is concerned that is sinful behavior. If a man has to push for “physical intimacy” to win a “Christian” girl, she’s not much of a Christian.
It’s all very dispiriting for men who truly want to live according to Christian morality and to have a Christian family life. The worst part, however, is the way adherence to Christian morality is pathologized by most nominal Christians.
“adherence to Christian morality is pathologized by most nominal Christians”
I suggest you have this conclusion inverted. Men that adhere to no sex before marriage are shunned by most NORMAL Christians.
Within the church, women brand virgin men as losers, closet homsexuals, repressed, abnormal and weird. Yet, it is always MEN that get shamed by the gynocentric leaders to keep their lusts under control.
This seems like feminist projection to me. A desire to keep quiet the true nature of female sexuality.
“I suggest you have this conclusion inverted. Men that adhere to no sex before marriage are shunned by most NORMAL Christians.”
That’s what I meant. Except NORMAL Christians are obviously nominal Christians, that is, the religion is no longer a serious matter as a matter of practice. When “Christians” removed the safeguards that preserved the virginity of unmarried women (and the fact that contraception exists) from courtship, they stopped being serious Christians. Oh they might still believe in “no sex before marriage” in one part of their brain, but in the other part they implicitly accept it.
One thing is certain, women raised in societies where they are expected to keep their virginity before marriage are much more patient with men who do not try to be sexually aggressive.
I found Van Rooinek’s post about this matter some time ago to be really poignant and sad. It’s really a tragedy. “Christian” women want to be seduced. So how is a Christian man supposed to court them? It’s like the test of winning them is to essentially abandon the morality you were taught. It’s truly sadistic the way this system is enabled by the hypocritical ministers and delusional fathers of these girls.
Ah yes, I see your point now.
“Normal” christians can do whatever they want right up to and including penetration, and use the repentance card afterwards.
Under these circumstances, courting is next to impossible with unshackled female sexuality.
Add a legal framework that promotes nofault divorce, cuckoldry, financial misandry and the result is a dismal dating scene for any man that wants an actual biblical marriage.
As I read much of these later comments, I was thankful that I am not looking to marry now.
I was not Christian when I was a young man and had several sexual partners. At the time my wife appeared on the scene, we had known each other at university and had been in different towns for a year when she got herself a job in the town where I was living, there also appeared on the scene a divorcee whose husband had been caught by her in flagrante with her best friend. Both went to church. Both claimed to be Christian. I hd become a Christian at the very end of my time at university. But I chose to develope my relationship with the woman who became my wife because she made it clear that sex was only for after marriage while her rival le me know that she was well aware of her sexual capabilities and was willing to demonstrate them to me to be sure that I knew what I would be getting with her. It sounds like my wife would be very much alone and even the pastor would have been encouraging the single men in his congregation to marry the divorcee these days.
@Deti
I think she will know if he is too beta by whether she is excited or repulsed by the idea of sex with him by then. If her frame of mind is “what is the rush to marry/have sex?”, then she should leave him for another woman who will feel more attracted to him. No harm there, so long as she doesn’t waste his time.
The larger problem that I see is the universal expectation of women falling in and out of love with a series of boyfriends, men who commit to them without them having to really commit to the men, and then converting the boyfriend of their choice into a husband. The only difference I see is the degree that sex is mixed into the equation. The young women at HUS (HUSies?) generally seem to hope to convert the best of a series of hookups into boyfriends, and the best of a series of boyfriends into a husband. If the husband dissatisfies them, repeat the process. If they do this long enough, they seem to expect to ultimately find a husband they will want to keep. On the other extreme we have women who are saving their virginity for marriage. While this is laudable, they seem to expect to have a series of platonic boyfriends until they convert one into marriage (hopefully one and done). The thing is, I’ve not seen this openly discussed/described for what it is. The thinking across the board is serial monogamy (with or without P in V sex) with marriage at best as an end point, and all too often only one of the steps on the path. It is fascinating to me.
Joe Sheehy:
A man should escalate to as much physical and sexual activity as she will let him, as soon as she will let him. He should try to touch her in an overtly sexual way (hold hands, fingertips on arm, arm on waist, physically directing her, kiss her) on the first date. If she rebuffs him, he can know she is not sexually interested in him. If she responds favorably, he knows she is sexually interested.
A man has to measure the woman’s sexual interest. The entire purpose of the exchange is to figure out whether they are compatible and whether there is anything there on which to base further interaction. If there is, he can escalate accordingly. If not, he can conserve his money and time, and reserve his investment and commitment for others who might be interested.
A woman puts every man she meets into one of two categories in the first few seconds of meeting him:
1. I would have sex with him; or
2. I would never ever ever in a billion years have sex with him.
As soon as possible, the man needs to find out which category she has put him in. Many women seek to obtain the man’s investment and commitment first, and then she will invest herself. that’s not going to fly in this SMP. Now, she will have to put some skin in the game early on.
when it comes to a particular man, a woman either is sexually interested, or she is not. There is no in-between, no ambiguity, no indecision. The sexual spark is either there, or it is not.
He needs to find out as soon as possible whether that sexual spark is there or not.
Good points, Suz. Yes, it really is hard to find out if he’s done playing. I think all guys should have fun and get it out of their system before marrying. It’s just hard for me to find someone who’s truly done.
Gerald – I can really relate to your disappointments. I’m feeling pretty discouraged right now. I feel stupid for even trying.
Ukfred, Joe: Yes, you’re both lucky to be out of the dating pool.
Cane – Good points.
Deti & Dalrock – I never considered that men were mixes of alpha and beta before – I just assumed they were one or the other. It sounds like you are suggesting that alphas can reform and settle down. I find that hard to believe. I feel like your past attitudes and behavior are engrained in you and make you who you are today. I get that young men ‘sow their wild oats’, but if you played around lots and treated women as disposable, it will be hard for you to be faithful to just your wife, and respect and value her. You’ll tire of her eventually. You’ll think you are above moral conscience – just as you were when you were younger.
@Tracey
I’m not suggesting that alphas can reform and settle down. What I’m saying is there is a spectrum. What you want are men in a fairly narrow band on the edge of alpha and beta. You want them to be dominant and strong enough to protect you and your children (and to be sexy to you) yet gentle enough to not be a danger to you and controlled enough not to get into fights with other men (fights being different than true self defense). You need a man who can take enough risk to support the family, but one who doesn’t gamble away your life’s savings in the stock market or drive too aggressively one rainy night 10 years from now with you and your children in the car. Women generally aren’t aware of this delicate balance, and this can be an advantage for you.
Thanks, Dalrock. That does make a whole lot of sense! I’ve never thought of it like that. Heh – I could really use any advantage I can get – I feel like the odds are against me. But thank you, all the same.
Tracey:
“Deti & Dalrock – I never considered that men were mixes of alpha and beta before – I just assumed they were one or the other. It sounds like you are suggesting that alphas can reform and settle down. I find that hard to believe. I feel like your past attitudes and behavior are engrained in you and make you who you are today. I get that young men ‘sow their wild oats’, but if you played around lots and treated women as disposable, it will be hard for you to be faithful to just your wife, and respect and value her. You’ll tire of her eventually. You’ll think you are above moral conscience – just as you were when you were younger.”
I’ll go one further than Dalrock. All but the most hardened, confirmed alphas can probably settle down and “reform”, meaning they can select one woman, marry her and remain faithful to her, IF they make that conscious decision to do so. Men are different from women in that once a serious decision such as marriage is decided upon, men tend not to reconsider them except in the most dire of circumstances. So once he has made up his mind on the question of marriage in the abstract and marriage to a particular woman, the issue is settled.
The reason for this, I think, is because women are more concerned with the immediate, their close family and the here and now. For example, a woman typically considers marriage as “will this make me happy? Do I feel happy? Am I attracted to him? Will he make a good father for my kids? What do my friends think of him?
But men more than women tend to give much more consideration to the far reaching implications of a crucial decision such as marriage. Yes, he considers if she is sexy and she is sexually compatible with him. But he also considers: “Can I commit to this one woman for the rest of my life? Are we compatible in spiritual matters? Does she want the same things from life as I do? Do we live our lives more or less the same way, in the short term and the long term? How does she respond to a crisis? How does she respond to me when I am in a crisis? How does she respond to change, both abrupt and slow? How do we respond together to change? Can I support her? Can she make do with what we have? Where will we live? How will we take care of kids? How will we work on and resolve problems?
You should stop looking at everything in black and white. It’s not. Nearly all men are mixtures to some degree or another of alpha and beta. My dad was much more beta than alpha. He was loyal, industrious and hardworking. He was also a devoted family man and something of a homebody. He much preferred being at home than traveling, which suited him well to fatherhood. Unfortunately he let my mom rule the roost, which was quite beta.
But he was also alpha because he owned his own business and was pretty good at it. It takes some alpha risk taking to own and run one’s own business. He always stood up for himself in the community and in business, even if he didn’t do it so much at home. He never got taken advantage of in business. He was also a deep thinker and an extraordinarily shrewd judge of character, and considered all aspects of something before making a decision. More than once he saved his wife (my mother) from ill-considered courses of action based on emotion. He could put his foot down and say “no” (but, unfortunately, only in life-or-death situations).
Most women don’t consciously understand that men who mix alpha and beta make the best marriage partners. That you know this will be a great advantage for you.
Very interesting discussion. I am a 39 year old woman, recently divorced, and find I am physically attracted to men my age, but they seem very immature emotionally. Emotionally I am more drawn to a man about 55 or 60, because he has mellowed and is willing to be more receptive. I am heading into a very active phase of my career and don’t want to be held back by a man who wants to compete with me or put me into a housewife role. I want a partner who can be both active and receptive. Maybe the middle ground is someone around 50? Still virile, but sensitive. Alpha and Beta. That’s my dream.
@Deti
At the risk of stating the perfectly obvious, I very much disagree Deti*. While people can change, over time they tend to revert to their own baseline. This baseline is very much what she is marrying. The odds aren’t in favor of marrying a reformed player. Beyond that, if you think of most of the traits which are seen as positive in an alpha, they are traits which in too high doses are catastrophic (see excuse #6). Tracey’s hamster is going to be telling her the player will reform his ways and make a great dad (proven by science). If she marries a player and comes back telling us it wasn’t her fault her child is growing up without a dad, we are going to tell her it really is her fault.
*It was bound to happen eventually. No problem, these things happen.
I will add that Tracey probably can’t expect the man she marries to be a virgin though. She said up thread that she rejected a man because he:
With that in mind, she should be expecting her husband to roughly fit Roissy’s expected sexual history for a greater beta (see table here).
@ Kathy Kali
“I am a 39 year old woman, recently divorced, and find I am physically attracted to men my age, but they seem very immature emotionally. Emotionally I am more drawn to a man about 55 or 60, because he has mellowed and is willing to be more receptive. I am heading into a very active phase of my career and don’t want to be held back by a man who wants to compete with me or put me into a housewife role. I want a partner who can be both active and receptive. Maybe the middle ground is someone around 50? Still virile, but sensitive. Alpha and Beta. That’s my dream.”
Kathy Kali, your post is all about what YOU want and need. I saw nothing about what you would bring to a relationship. All I read from you is what you expect a man to give you and that you expect him to fit into your life around your career. You don’t want to compete with him. However, you expect him to compete with you AND your career AND your interests. You also expect him to be emotionally supportive and masculine and physically attractive to boot.
Perhaps you might have more luck finding a compatible man if you give some consideration to what he might want and need in a partner.
Dalrock – lol – I hope you don’t actually think my little hamster (I know it’s a very insulting term, but it’s terribly cute, too!) will be spinning for a reformed player. I’ll be honest, I’m scared of alphas because of what I see it do to girls. I see girls at school who give in to alphas and then are SHATTERED when the guy discards her after sex. It’s really sad – these girls don’t eat, sleep, and cry endlessly. You can’t really blame them – they are only seeking what their biology has programmed them to (which is just as relevant as male biology is to male behavior). But God also gave us brains to balance our hormones and make the overall best decisions for our own survival. So I guess that my fear of alphas is why I was surprised by the concept of mixed alpha and beta – because I’ve always categorized them as one or the other. What an interesting discussion. Though I really hope my kids (if I ever have any) will not be “dad-less”, as you said.
Also, no I don’t expect husband to be a virgin. I said I rejected a “very Christian” guy, because I am of a different faith and questioned long term compatibility. At my advanced age, looking for a virginal guy is pretty unrealistic and would limit my pool further.
Deti – interesting points. You’re right – I do look at men in terms of black and white. I guess I feel like men see me in black and white terms (you’re either young/beautiful or not), so I naturally categorize men in black and white (you’re alpha or not). That probably makes little sense, but I guess I feel like we all follow these black and white rules of attraction, with little room for grey. Feelings aren’t rational.
Tracey:
“I guess I feel like men see me in black and white terms (you’re either young/beautiful or not), so I naturally categorize men in black and white (you’re alpha or not). That probably makes little sense, but I guess I feel like we all follow these black and white rules of attraction, with little room for grey. Feelings aren’t rational.”
Many men do see women in black and white terms, but only at first. Crassly put, most men see particular women as either f***able or not f***able. You’ll also see this expressed as “Does she pass the boner test?” IOW, if I get a boner when I see her, she’s got potential. If I don’t, she’s out.
Greg S if you are still around, I don’t know what you and your wife are doing for hot flashes, but there are more options than there used to be on that side of things.
http://www.lef.org/newsletter/2010/1217_Hot-Flashes-Reduced-by-Folic-Acid.htm
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2010/jun2010_A-New-Way-to-Manage-Menopause_01.htm
And this recent article:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2012/may2012_Reversing-Female-Sexual-Dysfunction_01.htm
Hormone replacement therapy, if done with bioidentical estradiol, also is workable to deal with the shorter term and longer term issues.
Deti: lol. Is it really enough to be merely f***able to get through the first hurdle? I’ve heard that male standards for f***able aren’t super high. Sometimes I feel (yes, feel!) like guys want perfection, though. I’m no Scarlet Johannson or Kate Upton.
Like you said, we do use our brains to balance our hormones. In that sense, it really depends on the person, their state in life, how humble they are, or whatever with respect to what they will accept in a mate. This goes for men and women, so you really can’t put absolutes on people. I’ve said a few times on blogs like this now that I’d rather have a 5 or 6 on the f***ability scale that’s a 8 or 9 on the “good person” scale than a 9 or 10 on the f***ability scale that’s so stuck on herself and is a total shrew that she only has a 1 or 2 on the “good person” scale. While most all single men would comply if either of those two women wanted a “horizontal encounter” with them, most men will realize, too, that you got to deal with the woman outside the bedroom if you’re talking something with a long term outlook like marriage. So the goals of the man in mind come into play, too.
But like I said, I can only speak for myself. As long as a woman is moderately attractive, the big things on the sexuality scale that make her a 10 is how willing and interested she is in the prospect of making it happen. If she takes joy in it and gets excited at the prospect of it happening, the rest will take care of itself. But then again, the bedroom isn’t all of it. She needs to be a moral, pleasant, diligent in what she does, humble, have a similar outlook to mine on several things (or be able to submit to me on the disagreements), share some of my interests, and generally like I said, be a “good person”.
Basically, it isn’t black and white.
Tracey,
It is only alpha males that want the 9s and over, probably the ‘perfection’ you are thinking of.
Normal men are much more accepting. Keep the hair long, the weight down and show some interest in what a man says.,…
There are virginal beta men out there. They are few in number and keep a low profile. Christian men at least have a moral imperative. Others do not for a zero partner count. Usually most groups are treated the same way, with suspicion and shaming. My best man, a long time mate is such a man. He no longer attends a church due to the feminisation of churches and the contempt it has for men that take seriously the instructions to avoid fornication.
Whether they are suitable for you is a separate issue. More than likely, the constant shaming and social rejection – even from christians – means they may be almost invisible and hence difficult to engage with.
Ballista74: Thank you. Your comment gives me a little hope. 🙂
Observer: Thanks for the advice. I don’t know any virginal betas, but I’m sure they exist. Every time I meet a guy that I imagine is virginal (because he’s obese, bad hygiene, acts odd, etc), I’m amazed when I find out he’s been intimate with a girl he met online. lol. Nowadays, there’s always a chick ready to go – you just have to let your standards slide enough. 🙂
For the record,he has a regular job, bathes regularly and can still see his toes.
He also suffered a severe case of oneitis in his prime. Shame.
Reader – Thanks for the links … these look very interesting. I have been regularly reading the posts …. but have not jumped in since the conversation has drifted towards those struggling with post-divorce dating, etc. My personal struggles are that love is more than sex. That is not to day that sex is not a great thing . I think that there has been a knee jerk attitude in a lot of the recent posts that imply that a couple cannot be funamentally happy and in love even though sex is not anything like it use to be. Being someone who never wants to give up … I explore ways that might work to get back to a glimpse of what once was.
BTW – I happen to be cursed with an advanced degree in statistics … I use to teach a course called “
Oops — I got locked out of finishing my post … anyhow I use to teach a course on “How to lie with statistics” … which is by far the most common reason for quoting statistics. No cold percentages, standard deviations, means, probabilities are worth salt against the value of true human stories.
The tables say that my wife and I should not be divorced because we are educated, did not marry too young, have children, have stayed married for many years. BUT So What!!! None of my statistical s**t says anything about whether we are happy … or in love … this is by far much more important than IF you are divorced … except in that if you are divorced or seriously considering it – they my human experience tells me you are probably not happy. I do not need statistics for that.
Cheers … Greg
Greg S
Being someone who never wants to give up … I explore ways that might work to get back to a glimpse of what once was.
I had a relation like that. She was in her 70’s and had a hip replaced. She insisted on talking with nurses / therapists about positions for intercourse that would work with her new “bionic leg”. Because that’s what part of marriage was, to her and her husband.
You should seriously consider getting blood analysis work done on both you and your wife. Many times that will reveal the root of problems that otherwise are not detected. There are several companies that provide this service, privately. The LE outfit I referenced has arrangements to do that, and the results go to you. I am not suggesting that you play doctor and self-diagnose, but if for example blood sugar is way out of line that is something that can cause many problems, and also can in some cases be brought back under control with supplements. Plus the more you & your wife know before seeing a doctor, the more useful a doctor’s consultation will be.
Unfortunately, doctors now are increasingly pill-pushers and/or cook-book oriented. There is still a tendency to just throw pills at menopausal and post-menopausal women. You should consider consulting an internist – a doctor who specializes in diagnosing harder problems. From my own research, I see that some percentage of women go on having hot flashes for years after menopause, but there can be other subtle issues under that. Maybe thyroid issues, for example, which can be corrected with medication.
Don’t quit. Don’t let her quit. Write back and let us know how it is going.
Tracey:
“Is it really enough to be merely f***able to get through the first hurdle? I’ve heard that male standards for f***able aren’t super high. Sometimes I feel (yes, feel!) like guys want perfection, though. I’m no Scarlet Johannson or Kate Upton.”
I think you will be pleasantly surprised at just how easy it is to please a worthy man who loves you.
That’s a lovely sentiment, Deti. Now I just have to find such a man. 🙂 I’ve had some married men express interest in me – men who act like good husbands/men in front of company. I feel so sorry for their wives. Sometimes I think marriage is what I want, but sometimes it really scares me. Sometimes you don’t know a person’s true nature until it’s too late, and circumstances can always change a person even if you think you know them.
Commitment’s a scary thing for both sides of the coin (probably more so for men in this day and age, but still). The things you wrote are as equally applicable to men when it comes to their wives. And don’t let the (genuine) bad examples get you down. There are genuinely good men out there. Don’t give up and don’t let it get you down if you believe you were meant to be married.
And like Deti wrote, it’s easy to please a good man who loves you. Remember when the time comes, he didn’t end up with Kate Upton or Scarlett Johansson, he will end up with YOU. As long as you’re reasonably willing and interested, the rest will take care of itself, barring any medical or other similar issues.
@Tracey
“That’s a lovely sentiment, Deti. Now I just have to find such a man.”
You’ll only meet the men you “allow” to approach you.
The men whose existence you don’t want to acknowledge, will always be incorporeal and ephemeral. As there’s always relational aggression, sexual harassment or false accusations to keep them away.
Ballista74: “Remember when the time comes, he didn’t end up with Kate Upton or Scarlett Johansson, he will end up with YOU.” Perhaps. But the divorce rate is about 50%, infidelity and porn addiction is rampant. Not sure if a man who chooses me will truly end up with me for the long haul – even if I give it my all. Also, the majority of people I know who are getting screwed in the divorce process are women. I know that this is not a reflection of how things work for the majority and that men have been screwed to a much greater scale and for a whole lot longer than women, but the point is that things are gradually changing. I would even consider getting a prenup for my own benefit at this point. I do appreciate your sentiments, though, and your optimism. 🙂
P Ray: You are right to some extent. I’ve tried to be more conscious of the guys around me (to appreciate betas and defy my biological tingle for alphas), however, I am often prejudiced by men too. I asked my beta male friend (who is taken) why his friends aren’t interested in me – he said that they assume I would never go for them (because they aren’t good-looking, cool, etc). Wtf? So I’m trying to work on whatever vibe I must be giving off that makes guys assume stuff like that. But I can only meet guys half way – if their self esteem is preventing them from asking a girl out, they need to work on themselves too.
^ What horrifying impairment is stopping you from asking them out?
I don’t ask guys out because i assume that men are “visual” and I may or may not float their boat. If a man is not physically attracted to a woman, it doesn’t matter how great her personality is, he’ll never want her romantically. I’ve been told I’m cute, but I won’t delude myself into thinking that any/every man wants me. So if he is interested, he should let me know. Also, part of maintaining attraction with guys is to let them work a little for you. If you are too forward, the guy wonders what’s wrong with you or assumes you are easy – he loses respect for you and does not cherish you. I’ve had enough failed attempts at asking guys out to know that it doesn’t work (I’ve actually had guys say, “you took the chase away”). Men are pretty complicated, too, sometimes I think it would be easier to switch teams. 😉
“I think you will be pleasantly surprised at just how easy it is to please a worthy man who loves you.”
Somehow, if you read all the vitriolic comments made waaay above by men about how women are only good for something if they are young and attractive and how they are basically obsolete and useless as they age, it makes me rethink Deti’s point. I understand the whole SMP dynamics and the virtues of enjoying your wife’s youth, but if you don’t fall into those categories (like me), where does that leave a “past prime” woman? Am I worthless to men because I’m single and not 18 and never will be again? I guess that’s where the Kate Upton/ Scar Jo comment came from. So actually, Deti/Ballista74/P Ray, you’re all wrong. It’s very hard for us older girls to find/please men.
Looking for men who are past their prime…I suppose.
Femininsts tried that and they’re still unhappy. Thoughts like that are what got you in the mess you’re in. Tracy, your youth was wasted, now you have to stick the pieces back together. Stop focusing on the guys in your age group and start focusing on guys in your SMP. 40 + is your best bet.
@ Tracey
I think it isn’t so much that it is difficult to please the “past prime” guys as that they have usually been badly burned in the past and don’t have a lot of trust/respect for women in general. The flip side of the coin is that when they do find one who won’t screw them over they are extremely relieved and don’t take it for granted the way other men might. I think the advice to look a bit older is spot on though.
Thanks, Antigrrrl. Feminist Hater: I appreciate the advice. I don’t consider my youth “wasted”. I took care of my family when they needed me most and maintained my virtue throughout – I see no shame in that. Sorry that you feel differently.
^ Tracey: remember that the man you “end up with” …
is also “ending up with you”. (Seeing an issue from both sides is quite empowering).
The point I emphasise is that women who choose men that do not appreciate them …
I guess what happens is payback for “NOT choosing the men that would appreciate them”.
Which makes it hard for me to be sympathetic to someone whose eyes were closed to 80% of men, and stuck to stodgy social convention, expecting things to change for them alone.
Tracey
If you would, please describe what you mean when you say the women are getting screwed in divorce.
Are the women losing the kids, paying child support, getting nothing or less than half in the asset split…..who filed him or her in the cases mentioned……me thinks “screwed” may be relative
Ha. P Ray, that’s very true. 🙂 I think you summed it up very succinctly: finding someone who appreciates you. If you appreciate each other, nothing else really matters because you will do whatever it takes to make things work. It’s so simple – I don’t know why it seems so profound. 🙂 I think a lot of women have long lists of what they look for in a man – good job, family ties, nice hair, car, etc. But they are missing the “appreciation” factor – the most important attribute.
Depends on who you know, as Tracey pointed out she is talking about people she knows, not society at large necessarily. I work with many women who are the sole providers because of field, economy, etc so I know several women who have not ended well on the side of the divorce equation. Like the husband cheated or blew the family finances and the women ends up losing the house and paying alimony. Yes, I know, NADALT.
Either way, innocent victim or not, a divorced person has taken a serious hit to their MMV.
Empathologicalism: Of the women I’m referring to, yes to all of what you listed minus the kids (which is being split 50/50 time with both parents). But the women are paying child support, spousal support, losing their assets/homes, etc. The husbands either make less money, have found ways to conceal their money, or are chronically (voluntarily) unemployed schmoes. Again, I’m not saying that this reflects the majority, I’m just stating what I’ve seen. And yes, I am totally aware that women are finally getting a taste of what it’s like to be a man in this sense. Just meant that women are starting to lose in divorce these days, too.
Tracey,
“Just meant that women are starting to lose in divorce these days, too.”
All in all, that’s probably a good thing. It might teach them to choose husbands more carefully, and take better (emotional) care of the husbands they choose. As TFH says, divorce rates will rise and fall according to how well women fare economically after divorce.
Tracey:
Overall, I selected out a few quotes to respond to, but they all seem to be in the same vein. I see in Tracey a woman that probably has some self-esteem (to borrow your phrase) issues herself. The issue I was trying to get at is this one, it seems you think that if you aren’t young and hot that men won’t want to take a look at you. I or anyone else here can’t make you see that in the end this isn’t much of a long-run issue. I haven’t seen what you look like, so I can’t rate you personally. But if you are being told that you are “cute”, you probably are good enough on the looks scale for most all men. This said:
P Ray:
This is probably the key quote in response to you since then, and IMO the problem with most women I’ve run across. Try to see this from the man’s perspective. Especially for Churchian women, their ability to show any grace and forgiveness is appallingly little. He’s probably looking at you and thinking the same things you are. Everyone has their doubts. Everyone. There’s just no way of knowing anything. Whether people get past them are not are up to them, but in interpersonal things, other people can definitely help things along. You got your problems, your prospective guy will have problems, everyone has problems. Everyone.
Tracey wrote:
Are you? I’ve found in talking with more than a few women online who complain about not finding a man that they really aren’t. If you like a guy, you need to act interested in him. That may go beyond what you are used to, but that’s part of attraction, too. Most guys aren’t going to cold-ask out women (and most of the ones that usually do are PUA’s and I assume you don’t want one of those?), and need a little prompting that you’re interested. Personally, I’m not going to bother a woman about a date unless I get the impression it’s something she would want. That doesn’t necessarily mean the woman *asking* for the date, but she needs to make eye contact with me, smile, obviously want to be around me (there’s verbal and non-verbal cues for that, others have it explained much better than I could), and the like before my mind even goes there. Sometimes some of us are pretty dull, so it might take more for some than others. But the point is you need to be putting yourself out there, too.
Tracey wrote:
What we’ve been trying to say (at least I) in this regard, is that it really doesn’t take *that much*. You might or might not be attractive to a particular man, but the odds are you are more attractive to men on average than not attractive. This is one of the things I’ve noticed in my temptations of late. In reading some posts on “game” and the like, and things like this, my mind’s been drifting towards that question. In looking at the women I run across in different places, more of them “float my boat” than not (I’d say about 70%).
So in the end, physical attractiveness really isn’t that much of an issue. You have to then look at the morals and personality of a person. Chances are, most men that you really want to consider aren’t players and won’t be looking for the next opportunity until the current one has played itself out. But these also aren’t the alphas that most women tend to see, either. So you will need to look at your standards more in this regard than whether you’re “hot enough”.
Actually, this can be seen as playing “head games”, too. So much really depends on the specific guy doesn’t it? I think this is another common mistake with women, too. Overgeneralization and making themselves too hard to get. Personally, I really don’t like a woman that plays games. If she’s into me and I’m into her, then there shouldn’t be any other problems when it comes to “attractiveness”. But the issue here really isn’t “maintaining attraction”, it’s getting an attraction to begin with, isn’t it? Like the fish don’t do anything with a bare hook, you won’t get anything without putting some work into being attractive. I get this from you and a lot of other women too in these conversations. Do you feel like you don’t have to work at all to get a man?
No you’re not worthless, and if it’s hard for you to find/please men, it’s only because you’re making it hard (standards too high, expectations too high, personal assessment too low, etc). People will be reading these things in their evaluations of you and ultimately will believe you. If you don’t think you’re “hot enough”, ultimately men will hear that and agree with you. That’s not men, specifically, that’s just human nature.
Well good. You happen to know a sample out of something like 15% of divorces. I asked because frankly when women talk about women getting screwed in divorce, its usually meaning they asked for the moon and were getting something less “while that rat bastard makes 200k per year and is going on vacation with his new GF”<———that spoken by a woman who dumped her husband after he neglected her or some BS about emotional abuse.
Empathologicalism: No, that’s not the type of man I’m referring to at all. I’m talking about men who are making less than 50K or are chronically (voluntarily) unemployed. I’m talking large disparities in income and women who are losing large parts of their earnings to men, who can’t even bother to be “house husbands” and carry their weight in different ways. You choose to ignore what I’m saying to marginalize the issue or pretend like it doesn’t exist at all. I already conceded that it isn’t the norm for most divorce cases, yet you won’t concede that it exists and is a growing concern for some women.
Ballista74: “Personally, I’m not going to bother a woman about a date unless I get the impression it’s something she would want.” That’s a very interesting way to look at it. I just figured guys “want what they want” and there was no influencing that beyond improving your appearance. It wasn’t so much a self esteem issue as that I assumed if a guy didn’t approach me, he wasn’t interested in me or didn’t like what he saw.
“Do you feel like you don’t have to work at all to get a man?” I don’t see evidence of this in what I wrote. I’m not cold and indifferent to men – I do try to encourage them and make myself receptive to attention when I get it. I even try to figure out where I’m going wrong and what type of vibe I’m releasing to men, instead of just assuming “all guys are jerks” and taking no accountability.
“..if it’s hard for you to find/please men, it’s only because you’re making it hard (standards too high, expectations too high, personal assessment too low, etc).” This is difficult for women who are marriage-minded. If we are talking about spending a lifetime together and bringing children into the picture, it’s hard to fault a woman for being discriminatory. I think half the reason why the American institution of marriage is in it’s present state is the lack of discrimination going into mate selection. Wouldn’t you agree? As it was alluded to earlier, it’s not about a laundry list of standards, but trying to assess how “into you” the guy is and how compatible you are together. That’s not always easy to find.
“If you don’t think you’re “hot enough”, ultimately men will hear that and agree with you.” This is easy for a man to say – you aren’t constantly being judged on your looks and told that your value is finite and fleeting as you age. You’re not being told that your relevance to the opposite sex will be limited to ten year span (your 20s), out of the 70 or more years that you will live. I’ve always tried to live a life of virtue and modesty, but even my self esteem has taken a hit by the way women are discussed on blogs like this and around the manosphere. You may not think I’m worthless, but if you scroll all the way up there are plenty of men on this very thread who would disagree. It’s disheartening.
No, I didnt attempt to say it doesnt exist, you are doing what women do a lot, inferring a subtext to my post, using it to create a straw man, then attacking said straw man.
All I did was share that IN THE PAST, when I have heard about women getting screwed it was not real. That and what you talked about are not mutually exclusive……relax a bit……men don’t do subtext so stop looking for it. Take the words written, their most straightforward definitions, and interpret literally.
When men use rhetorical tools that include inference, it is usually for reasons other than veiled attacks or rebuttals. If I’d wanted to say that to you, Id have said that to you.
If you do that to men you meet, they will immediately blanch because its maddening. It took more than a decade for my wife to figure out that I say exactly what I mean and stop tilting at the windmills she saw
I think half the reason why the American institution of marriage is in it’s present state is the lack of discrimination going into mate selection. Wouldn’t you agree?
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No I do not agree at all.
Setting aside actual affairs (men and women) physical abuse (men and women), addictions and substance abuse perhaps….taking the rest of marriage failures, and limiting my take to the church, the problem with marriage in church, if we need to pick the biggest things are expectations and esteem issues.
Logic dictates we look at women because they file the vast majority of divorces. the average evangelical princess has been raised to think she IS a princess, she is innately more moral and spiritual than men, she is the equal of men in every way however (conundrum that), she is no different than a man (but also a unique snowflake) She is also steeped in expectations that men are in sin, or barely staying out, and but for the womans intervention he will sin sexually, also that men cannot communicate well, because communication is defined as female communication (odd because she also thinks we are not different at all) and that a man can learn to be a woman with a penis.
When things dont pan out, when she is not treated like a princess, when her emotional whims and nebulous ball of unreconciled feelings is not pandered [and who wouldnt be confused with all the mixed messages I listed] she FEELS neglected and then someone tells her that that is abuse so she divorces.
THAT is the problem with marriage today, its the only problem that is not being addressed by the church, and it happens to be the biggest one
@Tracey
This is good insight that Ballista has offered. You have the additional challenge of men not knowing what you are really looking for. Some will mistake you for a hookup or girlfriend candidate. This most likely represents the vast majority of the interest you receive. The marriage minded men aren’t approaching you as much as the players due to a number of reasons. Part of it is if they were great at approaching women, depending on their goals they would either be players, men in the middle, or if marriage minded in most likelihood already married. But not being the smoothest guy at the bar doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be a great husband (so long as you feel enough attraction for him once you get to know him that you can fall head over heels in love with him). With this in mind, you can improve your own situation by:
1) Doing your own assesment of the men around you. Figure out which ones are marriage minded and a good fit for marriage. If you are interested in one, take Ballista’s insight to heart and lower the risk threshold he perceives from approaching you.
2) Given your (laudable) goal to remain a virgin until marriage, you need to find an appropriate way to signal that you aren’t looking for a celibate boyfriend, but a husband (I assume you read the recent post). As we’ve discussed above you want to be careful how you manage and communicate this, but you do need to manage it. Don’t move any faster than you think is prudent, but figure out how you can remove unneeded time from the process if possible. You don’t have to give most men an iron clad timeline on how you expect things to progress, but you need to be serious enough for him to be convinced that you aren’t going to waste his time/investment.
Many women will look at the above and bemoan that men aren’t “manning up”. So be it. However, a more practical approach is to recognize that those bitches are trying to steal your man. Focus on the real goal. If it is having an exciting and satisfying dating life, your choice to remain a virgin probably isn’t the right strategy. If it is to find your future husband as quickly and efficiently as possible (and getting the best husband you can get), then focus on that. He is out there, and he is going to marry someone. Why not you? Figure out your best plan to locate him as quickly as possible and stop the bitches from stealing your man!
Tracey:
I’ve read your posts and the responses to them, especially Ballista’s. Ballista is spot on. I also think you are overthinking this to the extreme. You are tying yourself up in knots coming up with reasons why none of this will work and you are doomed, DOOMED I tell you, to a lifetime of solitude, HaagenDazs, and cats.
Tracey, many men on this blog have had their hearts ripped out by women. Girlfriends, hookups, ex wives. There is much hurt and pain here. It is valid. However, you needn’t concern yourself with that.
What I am going to tell you will sound harsh. But I suspect you need to hear it because you’re back to wallowing in indecision and “this is never gonna work” nonsense.
You haven’t taken my previous advice to heart. You need to go back to the basics of female nature. You need to think about what your goal is and then gear your conduct toward that. Is your goal to find a suitable husband? If so, you need to do those things that will get you there. And I can tell you, bellyaching here about other women you know who are getting screwed over because they married douchebags who expected to be “kept men” is not going to get you there.
Here is what will get you to finding a suitable husband:
1. For the love of Pete, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? You are 27 years old. You are already late to this party. You need to get going NOW. You cannot spend time worrying or looking around at how others are doing. You DON’T. HAVE. ANY. MORE. TIME.
2. You need to understand your nature. Its basis is hypergamy. You are a dental student. This is going to limit the kind of men you will find attractive. I think you are unwise to pursue a career in dentistry if you also want a husband and children; but it is what it is. You need to be in places where the kind of men you find attractive will be. I don’t know where that is but I suspect you do. Find those places, and go to them and spend your time there. Calibrate your attraction triggers for men who will make suitable husbands. If all you want is sex from an attractive alpha, you can get that inside of 15 minutes at a bar. But if you want a husband, you — YOU — will have to work for it.
3. Understand male nature. Ballista is right: For most men, well over half of all women are attractive enough to approach and have sex with. This is how male attraction works. So you are worrying entirely too much about how you look to men, especially if people call you “cute”. Believe me, for the kind of men you will be shooting for, “cute” MORE than fits the bill. You are way overthinking this part of the equation.
4. Beggars can’t be choosers. I’m not saying you’re begging. But what I am saying is that you will need to be much more forward about finding a husband.
You said this:
“I don’t ask guys out because i assume that men are “visual” and I may or may not float their boat. If a man is not physically attracted to a woman, it doesn’t matter how great her personality is, he’ll never want her romantically. I’ve been told I’m cute, but I won’t delude myself into thinking that any/every man wants me. So if he is interested, he should let me know. Also, part of maintaining attraction with guys is to let them work a little for you. If you are too forward, the guy wonders what’s wrong with you or assumes you are easy – he loses respect for you and does not cherish you. I’ve had enough failed attempts at asking guys out to know that it doesn’t work (I’ve actually had guys say, “you took the chase away”). Men are pretty complicated, too, sometimes I think it would be easier to switch teams.”
Tracey, I mean this in the nicest possible way.
Bullshit.
Any 27 year old cute dental student who approaches dating and relationships this way is setting herself up for disappointment. You need to make yourself romantically available for men whom you find attractive. You’re simply hanging back, waiting for the perfect man to fall into your lap. That might work when you’re a 22 year old bank teller fresh out of college with a finance degree. It’s not going to work when you are a 27 year old virgin cute dental student surrounded by men who are studying and working their asses off to improve themselves.
And don’t give me this “let them work a little for you” crap. Again – OK if you’re 22 and not really looking for a husband. Not gonna happen when you’re 27 and in the market for marriage. This is girl game “The Rules” bullshit. You try this with men you’re in school with or around your age and you’ll get nothing but pump and dump offers. The only men who push through that kind of bullshit are cads who will try to pump and dump you, and players who will never marry you. The only men who will hang around long enough for you to stop running that game without trying to get in your panties are beta orbiters who you will never be attracted to and whom you’ll never sleep with.
If you marry a beta orbiter to whom you’re not attracted, you’ll then have an “I’m not haaaaappy” marriage to a douchebag kitchen bitch, you’ll either divorce or be miserable, and you will ruin your life and his, and destroy the lives of any children you have.
Let me explain this to you again. If you are playing “hard to get”, if you are making “him work a little for you”, if you are flaking on dates and constantly saying you’re not available, if you are too busy or too distracted or have too much else in your life, or if you are constantly rebuffing sexual advances, it means YOU ARE NOT ATTRACTED TO HIM. That is how he reads it. A man worth his salt MOVES ON when his target is not attracted. If you are truly interested and attracted, YOU WILL CRAWL OVER BROKEN GLASS TO BE WITH HIM.
Men have limited time, money and resources to invest in women, “dating” and relationships. Men invest their time, money and resources where they do the most good FOR THEM. We DON’T HAVE TIME to chase women who clearly aren’t interested or attracted for whatever reason.
The kind of men you say you want have been so conditioned by sexual harassment laws and the feminist culture that they are not going to approach unless you are throwing out IOIs left and right. If you see a man you’re attracted to, you need to make it as easy as possible for him. You need to show IOIs. You need to make yourself available for dates. YOU NEED TO LET HIM KNOW YOUR ATTRACTION TO HIM. You need to ask him out. You need to be with him so you can examine his character. You need to respond to physical escalation. You do anything to clam up or shut him down, it’s game over. He’ll never respond to you again.
You cannot wait any longer. Time is not on your side. You need to get moving NOW.
Tracey:
No, it was an honest question that I don’t see the answer to in what I’ve read of you here. It does seem, however, you are under the mistaken notion that all you need to do is get dolled up and go out and the men will fall all over you. I’m trying to communicate that the world just doesn’t work like that. Even if she is a perfect 10 in looks, a wall flower is still nothing different than any other piece of furniture in the room and ultimately very boring. You need to act interested in the men you are interested, and in other words, BE INTERESTING. Anyhow, think real long and hard on that question before you answer it, perform some introspection on yourself, and come up with the real answer and not what you think the answer is.
I disagree. Women are much too discriminatory by and large when it comes to men. Empathologicalism covers it pretty well (June 20, 2012 at 12:50 pm), but personally as a single man, it’s always depressing for me to run into a woman that’s looking for the perfect romance to play out according to her fantasy script as she got indoctrinated into by all the Prince Charming type stuff, the romance novels, the chick-flicks, and the like. Women often have page fulls of “must-haves” in their dream man list.
Anyhow, most women have so many of these things, there’s no way they can be happy with any man they’re with. This especially comes when the flaws come to light (there’s no perfect man, as there’s no perfect woman). The reason the state of marriage is as it is is because women exhibit very little grace when it comes to men and their faults, as well as very little aptitude to communicate with him or be understanding of his position or his needs.
I’m not saying that you throw away all your “must-haves”. We all have them and need to have them for various reasons, IF we can’t by grace get past them. For example, given my past, I can’t have a smoker as a wife. I really just can’t deal with it and there’s no way I can overlook it. And obviously she needs to be a believer that’s invested in Jesus and not in Churchianity. You have to have your “must-have” list shorter and more realistic or you’ll never find a mate. There’s things I’d like to have in a wife, sure, but I don’t have to have them. If I find a wife with them, great, if not, great too. You have to set your priorities and be realistic. Most women don’t.
You don’t think I’m not being judged on how I look as a man? You wouldn’t believe all the stories I could tell. But I won’t since it’s not too relevant to the case at hand. Anyhow, since when does what anyone else say matter to you and your personal identity? That it does really says something. You need to learn who and what you are and own it, and stop listening to what other people tell you you should be. The voice that carries the most weight is YOU (in fact all the weight). YOU are the one that needs to decide whether the voices are speaking truth or not. The voices may have a just argument on something you can change, but usually they just want to tear you down. In the end, though, you need to be willing to take some intrinsic value in yourself and believe you are a worthy woman for the right man. As I wrote before, if you keep communicating you aren’t worthy, men will just come along and believe you.
“Of the women I’m referring to, yes to all of what you listed minus the kids (which is being split 50/50 time with both parents). But the women are paying child support, spousal support, losing their assets/homes, etc. The husbands either make less money, have found ways to conceal their money, or are chronically (voluntarily) unemployed schmoes. Again, I’m not saying that this reflects the majority, I’m just stating what I’ve seen. And yes, I am totally aware that women are finally getting a taste of what it’s like to be a man in this sense. Just meant that women are starting to lose in divorce these days, too.
“I’m talking about men who are making less than 50K or are chronically (voluntarily) unemployed. I’m talking large disparities in income and women who are losing large parts of their earnings to men, who can’t even bother to be “house husbands” and carry their weight in different ways. You choose to ignore what I’m saying to marginalize the issue or pretend like it doesn’t exist at all. I already conceded that it isn’t the norm for most divorce cases, yet you won’t concede that it exists and is a growing concern for some women.
Tracey, what you wrote is some evidence that supports what Brendan in other threads has pointed out, and I’ve suggested too. What’s happened to these women is their loss of attraction for men who don’t outearn them; because hypergamy demands their men be better than them.
When women outearn most men or have more education or social status than most other men, they sharply limit the men who are attractive to them. I think these women will still marry. But they cannot marry up. Instead they marry down to a very physically attractive boy toy type of man. He becomes a “househusband” or, in manosphere parlance, a “kitchen bitch”. Sandra Tsing Loh, an Atlantic Monthly writer, coined the term when she wrote about her affair and divorce from her husband, around whose neck she hung the “kitchen bitch” label. The term is useful because it shows what women think of househusbands and boy toys and men who are clearly beneath them in social status. Such women think of such men in terms of their use to them; rather than as human beings.
Candidly I see what is happening to such women as only the natural result of the feminism they want when it suits them. More and more women are outearning men. As that happens, the men they marry will be of lesser status. Those men will rightly expect their highflying career wives to care for them. When the women sour on their lowly kitchen bitch husbands and seek divorces, the men are right to seek child support, alimony and the house.
If this trend continues, you’re damn straight there will be reform of no fault divorce laws. The women will demand it as they move into better paying careers.
If this trend continues, you’re damn straight there will be reform of no fault divorce laws. The women will demand it as they move into better paying careers.
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Never thought about this….poetic and absolutely enraging
Tracey:
This is not 1955. You cannot simply show up somewhere, looking good, and expecting good quality men of character to want to bask in your awesomely awesome awesomeness. Feminism destroyed that. It doesn’t work that way anymore.
Women wanted equality – here it is. If a woman wants a man, she will have to go after him. If you want a husband, you will have to pursue it with singular purpose. YOU will have to pursue it. You can no longer wait for such men to pursue you without your throwing out IOIs like there’s no tomorrow.
Tracey:
I would be remiss to point out too that in getting older, men who really care about such things as whether they are hitting on someone else’s wife or not, aren’t going to push on the matter much either unless they know you are genuinely “available”. Seeing this, I would think you would like such a trait in a man you would want to consider for marriage (he respects others’ marriages, he’ll respect his), as opposed to others who just don’t care. Now granted, I’ve seen several instances where the wives really didn’t care either and flirted and much more, but that’s getting into the normative feminist standards we are all living with today.
Dalrock/Ballista/Deti: Thanks for the advice. I never considered having to signal to men first. This is not because I’m some spoilt princess, but because I always figured guys really wanted the hottest chick around (I’m cute, not hot). Given what you’ve said about female attraction, do you think there is there any point in talking to guys who make less money? Are there other ways, besides salary, that men can be dominant?
You are right, I have fallen into a defeatist mind set. Even though I understand the urgency for prompt action and I’m taking measures to meet men, I feel totally discouraged deep inside. Yes, this attitude is probably holding me back to some level, not sure how to fix it.
@Tracy
Yes. Hawaiian Libertarian has written about this here. However, it is something to take seriously. Don’t let feminists tell you that there is nothing to it. Some couples can make it work, but many women report being miserable when they outearn their husband. My advice to young women is to find a man they are comfortable having lead them. In your position this is more difficult, but hopefully not impossible. The good thing though is that you are thinking these things through. This puts you ahead, even though the task is still very difficult.
Tracey:
Dear Male-Female Relationships 101 Student:
You have not been reading very carefully. You have not been integrating what you read here into your thought processes. It is as if you are reading all of this, and then you revert back to your old thoughts and patterns.
You’re projecting female hypergamy onto men. You presume that all men will go to the hottest chick and not settle for anything less. Not true at all.
Women can get sex anytime they want from just about any man they want, if the sexual price is low enough. For men it is very, very different. Men want the hottest chick, sure. But they learn early on to approach the matter rationally. Most men aren’t going to get the hottest chick. Ever. So they learn to pursue women in their sex rank – at or a point or two below.
Get this in your head now: Most men know they will not get the best. They take what they can get. My wife was not the hottest, nor even the cutest, nor did she have the best body. She was cute enough, and that was good enough for me.
“Given what you’ve said about female attraction, do you think there is there any point in talking to guys who make less money? Are there other ways, besides salary, that men can be dominant?”
There are many other ways men can be dominant: forceful personality, artistic ability, charming personality, extreme good looks, etc. Women will always want a good looking man, even if he is not very wealthy. The thing is, in today’s society, money is king. Money talks, and BS walks. People live by the golden rule – he (or she) who has the gold makes the rules. So I don’t think it’s a good idea for a woman who outearns a man to pursue him romantically.
There is no such thing as an “equal” marriage. Every marriage – EVERY marriage – has a dominant partner and a submissive partner, without exception. The man is most suited to be the dominant partner.
In almost all American marriages, the way it shakes out is that the breadwinner is the dominant partner – makes the decisions, breaks the ties. It works this way usually by default because the marriage and family unit must accommodate the source of the money and the support to keep the family unit going. Also the wife can unwittingly lord it over the husband that she should be the one to make the final decision on something because after all, she is the one who must make the money to pay for it. Ultimately, women don’t want the heavy responsibility. They tend to not respect husbands who earn less, because they are just not as dominant. Why should a primary breadwinner husband listen to or respect a man who earns less than she? After all, she is the one doing the heavy lifting and earning the money. In her mind, he must submit to her, rather than she to him. Once the marriage goes down that road, loss of respect leads to resentment, disillusionment, deterioration of relationship, withholding of sex, and eventually the end of the marriage.
Don’t get me wrong: If you want a highflying career working your ass off as a dentist, go for it. But you are making it much, much harder to find a man who you can be attracted to for the long haul. I suggest you abandon your plans to become a dentist and instead become a hygienist, IF a successful marriage and children is what you want. If you really want to be a dentist, OK. But you will have to make choices, and some of them will be very, very hard choices.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
Tracey,
Is there a guy you like? Can respect?
Iois are simple. Talk to him. Show interest in what interests him. Avoid talking about your career, except in how you see it supporting a husband.
Do not play head games, ‘make him work’ or overthink. Men are literal. Your tactics say that career comes first. Other guys have already said they see you as cute but unapproachable.
It is very easy to get people to talk. Ask them questions. I did. The more people talk the more i heard of their character.
A man seeking a wife wants a partner. Not a competitor. Not because he is intimidated. Because he gets enough competition at work as it is.
Seriously want a husband? Go to bible college.
Lots of decent men there.
Next option?
Do as deti says.
sly want a
Tracey:
I’m something of a classic beta. I’m not high alpha, but I’m not a lesser beta or an omega either. I am a professional, age 43, average looks. I’m not ugly, but I’m not George Clooney either.
If I were a single man and I was interested in you, I would be looking for crystal clear IOIs – laughing, smiling, you square up your shoulders to me to face me directly. When I talk to you, you look right at me. Your eyes don’t wander about the room. You’re not looking for your girlfriends, or fiddling with something in your hands, or fidgeting around. If I don’t see these things, I move on.
If I do see them, I stick around. I ask for your number after a few minutes. If you balk, I know you’re not interested, and I move on. If I get your number, I’ll call you in a few days.
When I call, I suggest drinks at a local favorite place of mine. I tell you I’ve only got an hour or two. If you can’t do it when I suggest AND you do not volunteer an alternate time, I know you’re not interested, I delete your number, I never call you again, and move on. If you can’t do it when I suggest and you DO suggest an alternate time, we try to make it work.
(Men are learning this very quickly: If a girl is interested when asked for a date, she agrees to the suggested time or volunteers a time when she is available. Note that she must VOLUNTEER the available time, WITHOUT BEING ASKED. If she is not interested, she says “I can’t make it then” and does not volunteer another time when she is available.)
I show up at the appointed time. You don’t. You have flaked. You are either (1) not interested; (2) a woman of poor character, or (3) just disorganized and forgetful. I delete your number and move on.
I show up at the appointed time. You also show up. But you’re fidgeting, preoccupied, worried about school. You take cellphone calls during our date. You don’t look me in the eye. You don’t smile. I leave in one hour. I know you are not interested. I delete your number and move on.
We have the date, you talk to me. You smile, respond favorably to my touching you. You laugh at my stories. We stay a couple of hours. As I leave, I attempt to kiss you; you turn away and look uncomfortable and a little offended. I know you’re not interested. I thank you, and as I get in my car I delete your number.
We have the date, it goes well, we kiss. You agree to a second date watching a movie at my place. We sit for a bit, I begin to escalate. You push me away, and tell me you’re offended by my attempts. We finish the movie and you leave, a bit uncomfortable. I delete your number.
At the second date, watching the movie, I start escalating. We kiss and “make out” for a while, with a bit of petting. You stop me after a while, and explain to me that you really like me but you don’t have sex outside marriage. I say “OK” and continue pushing. You let me go a little farther but eventually stop me where you reach the limits of your comfort. You remind me of your no sex before marriage view. I am good with this, and I agree to go right up to your line.
The point of this is to show how a woman’s nonverbal cues can show disinterest or lack of interest. It is also to show how a woman’s showing IOIs can help propel a budding relationship.
If you are interested, and you really want him, you will do whatever it takes (short of compromising first principles) to be with him.
@ Tracy
You’ve gotten a lot of good information on this thread. I’ve been out of the dating scene for a long time so if I’m off on some of what I say I hope someone will jump in and correct me.
You commented about looks and it sounds like your self esteem is rocky in that area. One of the comments to you said basically that if you think this way about yourself you, men will see you this way too. A major issue for my husband is that I have a habit of thinking and verbalizing things negatively about myself. He will get angry about it at times as well. Why? Because he doesn’t want to think that he made a bad choice in a wife. If I don’t see myself positively then the message I give him is that he chose poorly. Even if he doesn’t feel that way, my negative attitude is going to affect how he sees me. The same for a man that you are interested in. Think confidence, but don’t be prideful. If you do have areas that you are less confident about then see what you can do about improving those areas and do them so that you do feel positive about them and it will show outwardly. If there are things that you have no control over then accept that and work on bringing out the positive features. Put in the extra effort, and continue to put in the extra effort long into your marriage.
One of the suggestions was to drop dental school. This is very good advice. There is nothing wrong with education and being able to have work that will pay the bills for now. But if having a husband and putting your efforts into being a great wife and mother after the wedding is your goal, what are you going to do with that much schooling. It doesn’t lend itself to the roles a man is looking for you to fill. Pursuing that much education might even convey that you are a) not really serious about being a wife or finding a husband, b) that you are sure you are not sure about marrying soon and you are going to school planning on needing to earn an income yourself for a long time to come, or c) that you are planning to put your career first in a marriage and being a wife as secondary.
Plus if you are racking up student loans for the education, a man does not want to take on that kind of debt load. If you take large debt into a marriage then 1) you have to keep working fulltime to pay off the loans and it will interfere with being a good wife especially if your husband would like you to stay home or 2) your husband’s salary will have to pay the loans which will mean it falls on his shoulders and a husband should not be expected to pay for debt his wife incurred before they got married just as the reverse is the same as far as a husband’s debt, but almost all the time the husband is the one earning the primary income and his debt may have been necessary to secure a better paying job, preferably one he enjoys going to each day.
Tracey, you keep worrying about not being the hottest woman around (“I’m cute, not hot”).
I’ll restate what has been said, but in the form of an analogy.
Once upon a time, Moe and Joe were strolling in the Montana woods. As they passed through a berry patch, a grizzly bear appeared on the hillside below and began a charge, no bluffing but a real charge. Moe took off running up hill, Joe shouted “Hey! Everyone knows you can’t out run a grizzly uphill!”. Moe shouted over his shoulder “I don’t have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you“.
You don’t have to be the “hottest”, or the “cutest”, etc. You just have to be more interesting than the competition, to a given man. Maybe you have to like ballroom dancing, or camping, or car racing, or opera, or rodeo, or classical symphony, or surfing, etc. “more than the other women”. You have to be a better “fit” than the other women, that’s all. Like Moe, all you have to do is outrun the competition, you don’t have to win the 50 meter dash at the Olympics.
(PS: All of the information given about grizzly bears is accurate. Don’t run from a bear, ever, it triggers their “prey” reflex, guaranteeing they will run you down in short order.)
Tracey, some men really like women who are the devoted type. If you meet a man you like, don’t be ashamed to set out to impress him with your willingness to serve his interests. Men find that sexy and attractive. Obvious interest can be a turn-on. Don’t let your ego get in the way.
Hello Tracey,
I cannot state enough how emphatically I agree with Deti and Jacquie about considering dropping out of dental school. I wish I had had someone to give me advice like that when I was a young woman, before I wasted so much time, energy, and money on undergraduate and graduate school. If you are really serious about being in a life-long marriage, you do not need the escape hatch of a career. Any marriage could have rocky areas where temptation to leave might arise; honoring your vows and following the teaching of the Bible is critical (if you are a Christian), but also not giving yourself the ability to leave easily is wise. And I agree with everyone else that your full-time job right now should be finding a husband as quickly as possible.
Dalrock: The hypergamy issue is something I’ve been battling with and I think you’ve laid it out pretty clearly. You’re right – it is more of an issue long term than I would like to believe at present.
Deti: I like how you laid out “dating” you. If a guy kept escalating after I told him where I stand, I would assume that he sees me as just a piece of a$$ and doesn’t respect my wishes – I would basically cancel all IOIs and frigid up. You are basically saying that’s the wrong method – maybe to be playful and let him think I’m ok with his escalation attempt, but just not give into it? I would also not go for drinks or back to his place within the first few (maybe 3) dates, because both of these situations would lead to possible hook up scenarios. I don’t want a guy to try to bed me or move things faster than needed and I don’t want him to think of me as a “tease” for going back to his place, but giving him what he wants. I’d rather prolong the non-sexual part of getting to know each other as long as I can through dates in public places/ no alcohol until later. Is this wrong? I sense that this is where I’m going wrong. It’s this balance between pacing escalation (I don’t mind escalation, as long as it’s paced and no P in V) that I think I am messing up. Will use more IOIs in future – thanks.
I’m starting to understand the importance of showing active interest – but here’s a problem I’m having: guys want to know if I’m talking to other guys. I am. I’m talking to as many guys who are willing to talk to me. lol. I won’t lie to them. But I don’t want a guy to think I’m not interested in him, just because I’m casually talking to other men (just as he has the right to talk to other women). If showing a man active interest is paramount, how do I answer his question? To note, I see potential in these men (not randomly leading them on), but I just have to get to know them better to see which is right for me.
Btw, you freak me out a lot, Deti. I sense the importance of urgency, but desperation and panic are not attractive and I’m trying my best to not convey these things. I went on a date where a guy “interviewed” me, much like the men above have complained about older women doing. It is very unpleasant and kind of desperate. Please don’t freak me out more than needed – I don’t want to become that guy. 🙂 Also, some of my comments here are venting/”bellyaching” and not a reflection of what I’m taking away. I am trying to undo years of doing things my way (or the feminist way?) and trying to incorporate what you say – don’t think your words are falling on deaf ears (eyes?).
Jacquie/Ballista: Yup. You are 100% right. Sure, I do feel insecure. I’ve always felt that I’m not sexy/sexually liberated enough for guys to like/ take seriously, since girls that put out got boyfriends. I see now that it’s wrong, my problem alone, and I need to come to terms with it (or at least not broadcast my insecurities to him).
Anonymous: Lol. I like the analogy. It’s good advice and entertaining. 🙂
Thanks everyone for your wisdom. I’m apparently more naive than I thought (even the younger guys I am talking to just assume I am younger than them!). I do appreciate your guidance – clearly I need it.
Tracey, if you want to stay a virgin til you marry, that is good. Some men prefer virgins anyway. It was an absolute requirement for me. Just don’t give him the impression that you won’t want him to have sex with you eventually. And don’t keep him waiting for marriage for long. If you are both pretty sure. Time is of the essence.
Try to convince him that you will be an asset to him, not a pain in the bum.
Not sure about the career advice. I am not American. There is nothing wrong with studying, but put the man first. Priorities.
Thanks, David C – advice noted. 🙂
Sunshinemary – I respectfully disagree with you. I worked a low-paying job briefly between degrees and found it very difficult to meet single, educated men with potential, while sitting behind a desk for 9 hours a day, surrounded by female coworkers, and rushing to singles events after work. Being in school puts me in a place where I have met a whole lot more men of this caliber compared to before on an almost hourly basis. These guys are relatively young and many are still in the “wilderness” of being invisible to women (I don’t mind dating slightly younger) and they aren’t as discriminating about my age. I’m willing to give them a “chance” before they realize their potential. I also don’t put unrealistic demands on them for attention/guilt them, the way “regular” women do because I understand exactly what their schedules are like and I know how to accommodate them. I just have to navigate between escalation, as Deti says, and show active interest and I think my prospects will be decent (I’ve really failed at doing these two things properly and I still see myself getting more attention than before). I have also been really confused about alpha vs beta males, which Dalrock and Deti have cleared up and I hope to use everything I’ve learned here to help my goal. I also have access to older professionals in clinic who see me as a subordinate because I am a mere student. I may not have met the right guy yet, but I’m meeting a heck of a lot more guys and receiving more interest than before. I am thinking ahead to ways of balancing marriage and kids with work, but let’s not jump that gun. I do appreciate your advice, though, and I do understand the logic behind it – it is very sound and I am grateful that you cared enough to share it. I will certainly keep your advice in mind as an option.
@Tracey
David Collard wrote:
Tracey this is definitely a +1, and part of what I think when I say act interested in him and be interesting. By all means do this in the appropriate measure based on the number of dates, but be genuine as most can usually tell when you’re not into it. Sometimes interests don’t mesh and in that case it’s better to move on, but if they do (or you’re up for something new) go for it and watch his cues as to how far to throw yourself into it. Or if it’s an unshared interest, ask questions and so forth, and be interested in furthering his interests. There’s nothing more sexier or powerful to a man than to be able to show off that he’s got something together on some kind of topic. And there’s also nothing more sexier than to see a woman working to please you in your interests, too. Don’t have an ego and don’t be afraid to be seen as foolish. Genuinely enjoying yourself is a positive, no matter what you are doing or how well you are doing it.
Sunshine Mary wrote:
As I wrote elsewhere, I’ve begun to think about marriage being the trading of two cards, virginity (or chastity) and commitment. Now in my mind for a marriage to be fully committed, both partners have to give both cards to one another. For a man, the more valuable one to give away is virginity and the more valuable for the woman is commitment (given these are antithetical to the base natures of each). Think long and hard on your career, for that reason. It’s hard to take a woman too seriously as marriage-minded if she put her commitment card down on something else or someone else. It genuinely advertises that you aren’t fully commited and only there for convienence.
Tracey wrote:
This is a question I roll around as a man that is desiring chastity until marriage. The problem is how you weed out the ones that are going to “put out” frequently when married with the ones that’ll keep you high and dry period after marriage. It’s not that I’m thinking of women as pieces of ass, it’s just that sex is a normal part of a marriage relationship, and for most guys, giving up the v-card to a woman does require a sexual payoff eventually. Not on the first date, but on a number of dates in, I would need to know that if not for the marriage boundary she would jump my bones in a heartbeat. Repeatedly.
And for me, expressing the right amount of interest so she gets the message that I would jump her bones if things moved into marriage, and not think that I’m not interested in women or something instead of just setting a moral boundary.
It seems the direct answer for the question as quoted (to me anyway) is one of respect. If he doesn’t respect your boundaries after you set your limits you do need to frigid up at least until it’s dealt with satisfactorily. But you do need to act interested, too. I guess make sure it’s not a nuclear rejection, not an “absolutely not”, but a “not right now”? I know I’d love some thoughts on this stuff.
Tracey wrote:
Showing interest in a particular guy means shutting all the other guys out while you decide if he is right for you. This may be illogical to you, but if you are showing negative IOIs to any man, he’s going to move on to someone who will show interest in him. I should mention that the advice above relates to positive ones, not negative ones (or Indicators of Disinterest). If your eye contact is elsewhere, you’re looking at your watch if you got one, checking the cell phone, talking to other men while you’re giving the impression to a man that you want 1-on-1, arms crossed leaning away, or a few other things, it screams that you’re disinterested. If you’re in a casual gathering talking with people, it doesn’t keep you from talking with other men, just wait until you’re done with the one you’re with. Now when it comes being on a date, the man you’re with better be the only man in your world that exists or you’re going to be in trouble. None of this is really too inconsistent with how women are, so think on how you would like to be treated.
Some advice, without going more NSFW than I would like: seek positive affirmation! If it helps you in your insecurities, think of yourself in the opposite way and place that affirmation in your mind everytime you notice yourself thinking that you won’t be good enough for a man. Use whatever script in your mind that works for you to get your mind on the positive side of things. Now reality might turn out to be a little different, but that’s okay. Going into something with a positive outlook, keeping in mind what you genuinely have to offer will be much more productive than not.
Tracey, you should have some kind of professional skill. As a safety net. Men die. No kidding. Even young husbands. Or men become unemployed. Or sick. Or they retire, and the baton may pass to you. Life is long. My wife is a bit more career minded now that I am retired.
You should want to have sex, but hold back if that is important to you before marriage. And be prepared for decades of sexual activity. Men don’t lose all interest at 35.
Make sure you are on his side, and pulling with him. You will have disagreements, but you should fundamentally be on his side. No man minds good advice and a sensible woman to give it, but he needs a wife not a mother.
I am not sure you get this next point. Men hardly care about your career. Or rather, they want you to have something respectable but not threatening. I avoided both secretaries and PhDs for these two reasons. I married a librarian. My friends married school teachers and so on. Sensible careers for women. I have a PhD. My wife has a bachelor’s degree in the humanities. That makes us Dr and Mrs. I am a bit more arrogant than many men, but most men want to be at least primus inter pares, whatever they may say.
This might be error- it depends on which end of the telescope one is looking at.
I interpret this as the following ” men are done with women after the age of 55″
Once a man hits his 40’s ( even earlier) – most men hit a point to where they want to do what they really want to do vs. put up with a whining complaining woman – like anything YMMV.
Thanks for your kind and informative response, Ballista. 🙂 I really appreciate how supportive you are. All your responses are like that – you sound like such a great guy. I was really feeling down earlier and your responses are very uplifting. I really hope I find someone like you.
David C. : I agree with you on just about everything and I like how you spell it all out. I have seen young husbands die and leave their young (uneducated, unskilled) housewife and kids to struggle. I am looking out for myself.
I don’t expect a man to value me for my career, I expect a man to value me in spite of my career. I think that the majority of young men today are even more comfortable with high achieving wives than in previous decades (note: I didn’t say men were attracted to high achieving women, just more comfortable. whether women are attracted to lesser achieving men is another story). Most of the young guys have been indoctrinated with feminist ideals, like the rest of us – it is the norm for most of them living in this society.
Also, I’m going to be really harsh towards my gender: a lot of women today really suck. They are slutty, entitled, bitchy (sorry for the bad word). I don’t care if you are a gorgeous 18 year old, or “past prime” 40 year old. It doesn’t matter if you are a dental student or not. Women are really terrible to men and a disgrace to their own gender. Period. I’ve mentioned before, my scandalous acquaintance with the high “count” who is a happy, stay at home wife and mom. I might be high achieving, but I am and will be a more virtuous wife and much more greatly bonded to my husband than she is, or the vast majority of girls I know my age and younger will be. I’m honoring him by waiting and that integrity is what our marriage will be based on. Anyway, every relationship has such trade offs. I don’t want guys to be attracted to my career, anyway. I want to use it to meet guys at my earning potential or higher. My other attributes (personality, kindness, virtuousness, softness, supportiveness, piousness, and cuteness) will be my selling points. I will find ways to make it work – if we are truly committed to each other and bonded, we will work it out. I know a couple of women who are in the same situation, married, with kids and they’ve made it work and are happy (not just saying they are happy, but are truly happy). I know I can, too. 🙂
I might be high achieving, but I am and will be a more virtuous wife and much more greatly bonded to my husband than she is, or the vast majority of girls I know my age and younger will be. I’m honoring him by waiting and that integrity is what our marriage will be based on.
That only really works if you tell the guy you’re with that he MUST be a virgin.
Along with that you need to accept that he’ll probably be judgemental of women.
You can’t have the “man of virtue” who has nothing bad to say about anyone – remember that Jesus messed up the moneylenders at the temple.
Which means you’ll be flying solo about your meatspace judgement of men, as any man you manage to be with … is one less man to do favours and be an orbiter or meatshield for “the sisterhood”.
You should want to have sex, but hold back if that is important to you before marriage. And be prepared for decades of sexual activity. Men don’t lose all interest at 35.
Hold back completely. Doing otherwise will kill your long term prospects and your happiness. This is viable advice whether you are a Christian or not.
“That only really works if you tell the guy you’re with that he MUST be a virgin.”
I disagree. His part of the integrity challenge of marriage is to wed at all. Since he stands to be the one to lose the most; given the current cultural and judicial climate, and given that Tracey has explicitly stated that she intends to marry a higher earner. By the way, nothing wrong with that: I endorse it.
Yes, let’s be honest. A woman’s virginity has always been more prized than a man’s.
“and given that Tracey has explicitly stated that she intends to marry a higher earner.”
I hope she makes that explicitly clear too.
‘Cause a guy needs to know that it isn’t always his character that keeps a girl attracted. Too many men are too egotistical to examine the motives of those they’re in relationships with.
Knowing they’re suddenly attractive … lets them know that they have options they can use.
I don’t want guys to be attracted to my career, anyway. I want to use it to meet guys at my earning potential or higher.
Nothing wrong with that, but consider: The median salary for a dentist is $141K. In 2011, the cutoff for the 98th percentile of income (single filer) was $143K — close enough for government work.
So, your goals will (more or less) eliminate 98% of men based on income alone. A choice you’re free to make, but one that suggests you wouldn’t terribly mind if you ended up not marrying.
Also, while I don’t want to come right out and say that you’re a Trolly McTrollster from Trollsville, Trollistan, I do note that on 3 March 2012 you wrote:
By by 5 March 2012 you’d become a born-again-Internet-virgin:
Which, you know, kinda funny.
Twenty – I already addressed this exact stuff to Deti a loooooong time ago – it’s up there somewhere. Sorry, if my posts offend you or come off troll-ish. I do feel bad that I’ve monopolized the thread with my stupidity. I’m going to do my best to refrain and let you guys get back to discussing the topic at hand. Take care.
P Ray: I actually do value character and was prepared to be with a guy even if he makes less. Deti and Dalrock schooled me on hypergamy. if you don’t like the lesson, take it to the teachers, not the student! 😉
So, what was the answer, Tracey? Are you a virgin? Yes or No?
of course.
OK, Tracey, we can take that as, yes, you are a virgin.
Tracey says: June 19, 2012 at 9:29 pm
“I asked my beta male friend (who is taken) why his friends aren’t interested in me – he said that they assume I would never go for them (because they aren’t good-looking, cool, etc). Wtf? So I’m trying to work on whatever vibe I must be giving off that makes guys assume stuff like that.”
@ Tracey
I’m going back a bit in your comments because, just my opinion, but the way you answered DC’s question said a lot to me about why you are having a problem. It may have revealed that vibe that you talked about that you give off. The answer you gave DC would indicate someone who is not completely straight up. Non-interest could be indicated when you are not totally honest in your conversation and say exactly what you mean instead of coy answers. I know the internet conceals inflection but I’m just pointing out that the words you used gave me the image of a female who is not being direct in what she says.
March 6th at 12:23pm (I wrote): “My “number” by your definition is genuinely zero (nothing beyond making out). I always falsely allude to a sex life (especially amongst my classmates), because it is expected of me and the lack of it is a huge (huuuuuge!) source of embarrassment.”
Jacquie – I’m not being “coy”, I’m withdrawing. The fact that there is continued disbelief and scrutiny over whether I’m being honest (in DC’s comment) after all these months of discussion makes me frustrated, embarrassed, and insecure. If strangers were scrutinizing this aspect of your life, let’s see how direct you’d be. Deti says this is really a desirable attribute to have in a woman, but ask any adult virgin and they will express embarrassment because they are going against the grain of today’s culture (the older you are, the more abnormal/ freakish you feel, especially since I haven’t experienced any pay off for this hard decision yet and just float on the naive belief that it will someday). Believe whatever you want, but I’m not addressing any more questions regarding it. 😦
“after all these months of discussion makes me frustrated, embarrassed, and insecure.”
Ugh, this woman talks endlessly about her insecurity. If any man who is a regular commenter comes flying back in here to once again allay her “insecurities”, I shall forever dub thee Sir White Knight of the Manosphere.
Eh…In my experience, if a man is a virgin, he lies about it.
If a woman is a virgin, she has little incentive to lie about it.
Lol, Sunshinemary, i’m not (NOT!) asking for anyone to address my insecurity – i was answering Jacquie as to why i wasn’t being “direct”. Jeez.
Tracey, I have not been following all your comments over months. You had implied you were a virgin here recently, but not actually said it. All you needed to say was, yes, I am a virgin.
This is the Internet. My real name is not David. I assume your real name is not Tracey. Besides, why should a girl be ashamed of being a virgin? I married a virgin, and I have never regretted it.
Tracey I hope you will continue to solicit advice from the regulars, if not on this thread then elsewhere.
I always falsely allude to a sex life (especially amongst my classmates)
If your life course or what you publicly do gets dictated by what others you see in real life say and react positively to, you may also consider that what you evaluate is coloured by their judgements too.
The more of a disparity between you and the guy you intend to marry,
please be aware that he’s not married to you, until he is … and until then, unless you are in an exclusive relationship with him (that he agrees to) … you’re not.
I am very glad to see more men understand defensive dating, myself.
David C: The scrutiny really came from Twenty’s comment (not yours) and I just jumped on the defensive. I apologize for it and thanks.
PB: I appreciate that. I do look up to these gentlemen and my awareness/ compassion for men has much increased since coming here.
Deti, P Ray: I don’t straight out lie – I’m ambiguous and not forthright when pressed about the topic. Experience deems it necessary. I’ve met guys in school, that get “double points” for nailing virgins and they will aggressively pursue. This is my way of preventing past harassment. I’m also sparing myself from needless, hurtful judgment (“she must be frigid, closet lesbo, repressed, etc). You haven’t grown up as a female in an internet porn/ “girls gone wild” era with heightened/ commercialized expectations of overt sexuality, so I understand why this is hard for you to get.
You haven’t grown up as a female in an internet porn/ “girls gone wild” era with heightened/ commercialized expectations of overt sexuality, so I understand why this is hard for you to get.
I completely get it, because as a guy you are told to have no standards towards girls, hence you should be making notches like nobody’s business. Quite repulsive, actually.
Which makes out that all men are good for is sex, which is quite frankly, insulting. And brings to life that stupid statement “All men are rapists”.
Re older men and their fertlity: I’m a 50-year-old man. A pair of identical twins I’ve sired are due to be born in about a week. The genetic mother is 24. Ah, modern fertilty science.
The price for marrying a slut: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/08/promiscuous-women-are-less-fit.html
“…monogamous women who have only had one lifetime partner averages 2.29 children, the average US woman with nine partners averages 1.46 children. The big dropoff appears to be between six and seven partners”
Also, sluts are much worse divorce risks: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/09/magic-number-matters.html Go above ONE partner, the risk rises. “When a woman has had 16 or more past lovers, the odds that a marriage to her will end in divorce rise to over 80%! Even “average” women with “only” five past lovers — women that few men would admit in public qualify as sluts — see an increase in odds of divorce to 70%.
“
From the CDC:http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/07/mailvox-hierarchy-of-female.html
the median number of sexual partners for women of what has lately become the normal age of marriage (25-29) is 4. The report also shows that the sexual history proxy is a reasonable one for future marital prospects; 30.8% of Chaste women are currently married and 6.5% are divorced whereas only 7.4% of Slutty women are currently married compared to 19.1% who are divorced.
15+ partners: 9.4%
7-14 partners: 21.3%
2-6 partners: 44.3%
0-1 partners: 25%
Luke, five past lovers is a slut. If that is average, the average woman is a slut.
Here’s another question for the gentlemen: where does the use of porn fit into a marriage? I don’t necessarily approve of porn. But I understand that if I was married, my husband would not require my “approval” to do a darn thing. He should be able to do whatever he wants in his own home, on his own time, with his own body, as he pleases. I also understand the biological imperatives of men and so I respect their need for it. I’ve heard that some porn use is normal and excessive use might be due to emotional deficiencies within the marriage (not just varying sex drives).
Are there things that women do/don’t do to “drive” men to find “solace” in porn? Are there ways for a woman to prevent his addiction (or is it like other addictions, where it’s just inherent to the abuser and has little to do with the people around them)? Again, not talking about casual/healthy use. Your two cents are welcome. 🙂
Tracey, my wife has never minded what I look at. She used to bring me home copies of Australian Penthouse from her library job. That said, the ideal is that a man gets all he needs from his wife.
Some recourse to porn is just to provide a distraction, or even for curiosity. Many men like to collect things, and having lots of pictures of women may convince some part of his brain that he has a virtual harem.
I think it is wrong to look at porn, but I think it is something women worry about too much. Women have their porn too. I know my wife looks at spanking sites on the Internet.
If my wife were bothered by something I was looking at, I would probably listen to her.
I guess I have been lucky that my missus is pretty generous about what she will do in the bedroom. What she will wear, and so on. I suppose if a man had a special need that his wife wouldn’t supply, he might look for it in porn. But a healthy sex life should relieve most of his little kinks. Or at least redirect them in a more healthy direction.
I would hope you would be somewhat jealous anyway of the porn. That said, if I were married, I would hope porn wouldn’t fit into the marriage at all, either as used by myself or my wife, in any form or would need to. This said:
Like I’ve mentioned before, it’s the idea of being willing and interested when it comes to sex that makes things sexy. Porn presents those two things in spades. I think, given my own observations and experiences, this is what brings men to porn. While I would call this something to blame on both parties (him for partaking, her for not opening herself up to her marriage duties), men usually respond with porn if they don’t have the proper thing available to them. Again, if I were married, I would hope my wife would be all the porn I would ever need or want. This is the goal as generally presented in Christian marriage.
Not really. Addictions are a response to certain stimuli. As for porn, the addiction problem comes when it’s done instead of the real thing or if it changes proper expectations of things as they should be into something unrealistic. One can be addicted to porn or sex just as much as alcohol or anything else.
Wow, David C and Ballista – your responses are EXACTLY what I would hope for, if I were married! Like I said, I don’t approve of porn. Yes, I would be jealous. But anytime I’ve voiced dissent in conversation with my male peers, I’ve been told to “deal with it” and that it’s “harmless” and that, by having issue with it, I’m “trying to control his urges/biology/fantasies, etc” and that I must be really “insecure” to be jealous of videos/magazines. I’ve been told that all men watch it and always will (regardless of how I feel). So I’ve been trying to come to terms with the idea, so that if I meet a good man, I don’t screw it up or somehow push him to seek it.
I also have female friends who are married and, although they try very hard to keep their men happy, their men often choose porn over them (they have been together for many years now). I know these women try hard, but they just can’t compete with the on-demand variety and novelty of porn. Makes me sad to see them so hurt from the neglect. It seems to be a more and more common problem with couples today.
David C. – wow, you have Penthouse in your libraries?!
Porno within marriage…this is something along with other things I think on to clarify about what is proper within a Christian marriage. I’ve always thought that there would be things that both husbands and wives would want to introduce into their shared sex life (consensually of course). Now that has to depend on the people involved. My thought is if the wife wanted to introduce it for some reason (as an indulgence, to get ideas, or whatever) as a shared thing it’d probably be “harmless”, as long as the desire for others doesn’t outweigh her. I guess it’s a YMMV kind of situation depending on what each partner likes and doesn’t like. I know one woman might be okay with porn and one might not be, but the one not okay with porn might be okay with something the first woman doesn’t like. Hard telling. So what do people here think?
The National Library of Australia collects all Australian publications. My wife used to have access to the copies of Australian Penthouse as they came in for cataloguing. I honestly don’t remember if I looked at them, and I am not quite sure why she did it.
Can I say this, Tracey? Men differ. But I have a domineering streak, sexually. My wife has been open enough to me to allow me to work this off in harmless ways. There may be men who have some really “hard-to-meet” desires, but if he has a few kinks, as most men do, a healthy sex life with a generous woman can help him keep his desires in the most wholesome channels possible. I should add that feminists and liberals in general think that the best thing is to tamp down normal male sexuality. But all this does is pervert it. I wonder how many schlubby husbands go from a night of tender, PC, unselfish lovemaking to something really unhealthy in porn, because their true desires are not being met. All a man really wants is the chance to fuck a woman hard – it is a mystery to me why this has suddenly become problematised for so many couples.
Personally I would think it would rather be more profitable to come to terms with the idea of (like I say) being willing and interested in sex with the good man. It will probably do you much better in the long run. There will always be the chance of porn use, but I would think any fear of it would be best dealt with proactively in that regard. Make sure there is no excuse from your end of things that would keep you from being willing and interested, and if you find a good man that’s as willing and interested in the idea of sex with you, all the better, right? Elementally though, the base problem with the marriages of your female friends as it relates to sex isn’t the porn necessarily but something else that’s prompting the porn, whatever that may be.
@Tracey:
I notice you left out romance novels, which is the female version of “porn”.
Are married women to be allowed free access to that, while bemoaning the idea that men see porn? (All men have seen porn (and many women – despite their protestations to the contrary), so women making that BS assertion that “my guy is not like you pigs”/”I’ve never seen porn and it is so so so degrading to women” is very funny indeed)
I’ve heard this said before, by a woman who owns dildos (yes, they’re quite frank even at university now): “What turns me on is erotic; what turns you on is pornographic.”
David C and Ballista: I really love your advice. Thank you (as always!) for sharing it. 🙂
P Ray:
“I notice you left out romance novels, which is the female version of “porn”. Are married women to be allowed free access to that, while bemoaning the idea that men see porn?”
Yes, I didn’t mention anything about romantic novels – why would I? I don’t read any. I also don’t watch romantic comedies or own a vibrator. I don’t care what other women do and I’m not here to argue on behalf of them. I’m not even here to “bemoan” what men do, either. I already said that I wouldn’t try to control a man, if he wanted to watch porn (even if I don’t like it). I’m asking about a wife’s role in preventing addiction/ dependency. You’re taking my question and trying to turn it into a men vs women battle of the sexes. That’s not what I’m here for.
Every time I pose a question, I get a lot of contention from you (a lot of “well, women are bad too, because they do…”). You are entitled to your thoughts, but please realize that I’m on the “man’s side”. I’m on here trying to learn how to be a decent woman and the very best wife I can, so that I don’t cause the anger, pain, and sadness that a lot of men experience at the hands of their wives. You’d be hard pressed to find many like-minded young women, today (read: I am not the enemy, I come in peace). Again, you are entitled to your thoughts, but constructive advice (like Ballista, David C, Deti, Dalrock, Suz, AntiGrrrl and the others) is WAY more helpful than ignoring my question and always arguing with me in obtuse ways.
^ What can I say, I’m a hopeless romantic. Which means I like to make sure women like me for me, and not for what I bring, how educated I am, what job I am, or how much I own, what race I am, or how tall I am or what religion I profess 🙂
Besides, I like it how in all those romance movies both people argue and then fall in love. So wonderful 🙂
P Ray: That’s good that you’re still “romantic” at heart. I’m not. Romantic movies are about as unrealistic and damaging as Disney movies. Your job/money/education are just as important as her looks, and will always have some bearing (maybe the next time you pass up a “personality” girl, you’ll think about this). Hope you find your Rom-Com Cinderella one day. 🙂
Rom coms are irritating when seen through the red pill lens.
It usually seems like the guy is somehow wrong/dumb/inept, and the movie culminates in a climactic chase scene, where he makes an impassioned speech, ‘wins her back’, and they live ecstatically ever after.
Excuse me while i retch.
No kidding Observer! I agree. I also hate how the couples are just cosmically “meant to be”. And once they get together, they live “happily ever after”. Give me a break. Love is painful and hard and doesn’t always last. But I don’t think I’m “red pill” – what exactly does that mean?
It’s a pop culture reference. “an observer” is saying that romcoms are irritating when you see them with eyes for reality as it is.
oooh, the matrix! lol. 🙂
Rom coms are irritating when seen through the red pill lens.
True, but once it’s clear that the red pill guy is the one being with the girl _he wants_ it’s a lot more cooler. Those are the rom coms that are accurate.
As for maybe the next time you pass up a “personality” girl
nope, Tracey,
ugly OR pretty girls from what I’ve observed, do what they can get away with,
and regularly fool themselves about the difference between commitment and a one-night stand if the guy gets them tingling enough
the same can be said about men. i’ve had men with absolutely no prospects and highly successful men alike try to smooth talk me into bed. of course, i saw right through their game. 🙂
^ I can’t wait to see you fall in love, it will be so joyful 🙂
and remember, there’s also “game without trying to game” game.
If you didn’t realise that, you might be game for that.
(Endgame).
P Ray, I don’t recognize you anymore. Since when is anything “joyful” or “romantic”? You’ve been cynical and difficult the whole time, what gives? I don’t know about “falling in love” – it’s such a foreign concept. I often wonder if I’m even capable of it. I don’t think everyone is capable of falling in love (loving others platonically, sure, but not romantic love) and I don’t think everyone is meant to fall in love, either (just like some aren’t meant to ever marry or ever have kids).
^ The trouble with putting people in boxes … is that they may only be reacting that way … TO YOU.
Hence when I hear a woman complain about a guy, I observe that that same guy has other options and exercises it.
Besides, all people change their personalities depending on whether they want the continued attention of the person they are interacting with. Or the kind of success they’ve had in the past with the behaviour they openly exhibit.
It’s whether they’ve told the truth about their pasts, and whether they live by their principles, that count
Have fun now 🙂
I also have female friends who are married and, although they try very hard to keep their men happy, their men often choose porn over them (they have been together for many years now). I know these women try hard, but they just can’t compete with the on-demand variety and novelty of porn
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Its likely a mischaracterization that the porn is being chosen OVER the wife. I am not pro porn. I do not endorse porn. In the current meme about porn though the misunderstandings abound and have painted over all reality. There may be a little of all each of the alleged dysfunctions present in the world, the world is full of pockets of folks with issues, but the standard idea that men watch porn and progress to hookers etc, or men watch porn then over lay the wife with a porn actress in the bedroom, and lots of others are just not the main issue.
Its also refreshing to find places where the subject can be discussed and not have a gang of harpies calling all the men porn promoters when all thats being stated is blunt reality. Blame is not the focus when its stated that a woman denying a man sex plays a role in porn use. Or even a woman who lays back and thinks of England while he does his bidness, or a woman who allows herself to be on a weight gain trajectory asymptotically approaching infinity, all these are triggers for porn. The answer is NOT that the women must offer sex on tap so to speak, as in when she has temperature 101, and mucus flying off her, or throwing up, or migraines, nor is the point she must be HB10 and never gain any weight or get wrinkles…these are the stupid retorts of feminists. The answer is, dont reject the man when there is no reason (which frankly is most of the time, meaning sex is possible pretty much daily…I said POSSIBLE) and don’t get frumpy and fat and wear stretch pants and big loose tops to cover the foothills of the Appalachians.
“Its likely a mischaracterization that the porn is being chosen OVER the wife.”
I see. So what explanation do you offer? These young women are cute, very willing, and very loving, happy, energetic people, who are bonded to their husbands. Why are their husbands choosing to get off to porn, but not sleeping with them?
Ladies, who are reading this blog, do realise the men who post here are very serious when it comes to their misogyny. Most men will try to show a different face when not on the Internet. Even the supposedly nice man is often one of these fellows here saying what they really think of women. Once you are no longer a hot young p-$$y, you are labelled a fat, ugly, old c-nt. Many of these men were never babe magnets in their younger years and are dense enough to believe they are entitled to a supermodel-type woman even though they are in their 40’s or 50’s and unattractive emotionally as well as physically. Ladies, get over the desire to have sex or have a “relationship.” A “relationship” is only going to waste valuable time and possibly a lot of money. Get a BOB or use your right hand. Neither of those things will cause you heartache and tank out your self-esteem. Do any of you ladies really believe these men WANT you after age 40 regardless of your salary and nice home? If a man claims to want to be with you, he is more than likely seeking great lodging at a reduced price while looking online for other women behind your back.
I happen to be a 55 year old woman. I can tell you that if there is any truth to the premise asserted that the “need” for a man reduces at age 55 it has little to do with many of the theories asserted here, especially by Eric, the lead off blogger. For you to try to leave the subject of sex out of the equation is to try to dehumanize women. The truth is that human sexuality is a fact of life and it cannot be overlooked if you want a conclusion based on fact. Sex drive and hormaonal drive do decrease for some woman but it is not extinquished all together. Most women remain sexually active. But the prospect of meeting men who are equally interested is what is demenished. Faced with this delima many women suffice to “dry on the vine” so to speak rather than to actively seek sex partners. Now when addressing the need for male companionship, I do thinks women about 55 get a certain wisdom that comes from experience. They get tired of men who view them as mother figures rather than mates; men who can not or will not contribute basic respect, live with dignity, be considerate of her needs as a woman or be willing to meet her halfway in decision making. Lets not forget, Eric, that men at that age also go through changes. There are those that get better with age and they are still highly saught after by women. Then there are those that become more and more selfish expecting their woman to become their mother and their nurse as well as their housekeeper. Women who may have played along with this draining farse may have done so out of devotion at one age but it is heavy work that we get tired of later in life. At some point the demands outway the benifit and we decide to quit.
So, Eric, before you drown in your tears or have a coronary blaming the femenists, just note that its not that we don’t want men around. Its that we want men that are real, genuine, respectful, dignified and can give of themselves in return for same. If they can’t do that then really, what is the use of married life? I am so blessed to still enjoy the love and companionship of my husband but I went through 4 previous marriages before finding this one real man.
The pattern that I have observed is this:
1) Sex with the wife becomes less frequent.
2) When sex occurs, it is more problematic. It becomes very easy to break the mood.
3) The number of “we need to talk about our relationship” talks increases to the point where there is nothing else to talk about.
What is going on here is that the husband is over time becoming sexually invisible to his wife. In the modern parlance, he is being friend zoned by her– and she hates him for it. Everything that society, the church, and his wife tells him to do seems only to make it worse. The guy is terrified to talk about this with anyone because he feels like a terrible loser/failure and that he is the only one experiencing this– the official narrative is so different, this is a natural assumption. Every interaction with his wife seems to have a subtext of her rejecting him and it is like jolting him with electric shocks. He shuts down emotionally and withdraws. This leads to a new chain of events:
4) The wife starts going out of the home more to socialize. She rationalizes it a dozen ways and probably believes her own fibs. She is actually looking to trade up even if she can’t admit it to herself.
5) She gets attention from guys out on the scene– and mistakes the fact that they want to get into her pants with the idea that her actual marriage/relationship value is high.
6) She talks about these other guys’ qualities around her husband. Before he was hurt… now he is angry. She then puts her husband down as being oversensitive or overcompensating for something.
All along he had assumed that sex wasn’t working because of *her* issues– maybe it was universal, maybe it was health related. Now he starts to see that she is hot to trot with other guys even if she doesn’t realize it. He is a nerd again… just like in high school… and it seems like no matter how much he invests or commits, he is a nobody– he doesn’t deserve the time of day FROM HIS OWN WIFE. He has all the responsibility and gets no benefits. As he becomes more sexually invisible to his wife, he sees these other guys come into the focus of her sexual awareness. And he feels completely betrayed.
The consistent female marriage power strategy in all this is as follows:
A) Always make a power play. Go for the jugular. Deal the low blows. (This is “Shit Test Ultra”.)
B) When the husband predictably loses his temper or lashes out, go into hyper guilt-trip mode and focus entirely on this as the new thing that is the “real” cause of all the relationship problems.
C) Your average guy will generally feel bad at this point. When he makes concessions about whatever the wife originally wanted… then she can pretend that everything is marginally better once he repents.
D) She can then repeat the cycle a few months later with a new issue. Depending on how much he trusts her and how out of touch he is with emotional warfare, she can rope-a-dope her husband for years in this manner.
These women that are supposedly cute and willing and totally ignored by their husband? They have no concept of how they are grinding their husband down and cutting him to pieces.
They say they want to have sex with him and he ignores them. What they really mean is… “I want to have sex with him, but I want to *want* to have sex with him first… and look at all those negative reactions he has all the time… he is so frustrated and angry all the time, how can anyone want to be close to that…?” From there she uses the issue of sex as the subject of her next round of A-B-C-D rope-a-dope… and then she wonders why he doesn’t want to show up. Then she complains to all her friends that he is a wanker. He hears this… and he is utterly humiliated. And he either withdraws even more or lashes out even harder.
So… I propose the sex test to see what is truly going on in a situation like this. Can the wives you’re talking about separate sex from their business-as-usual relational warfare? Try this simple Wife Action Plan:
1) Shut up about your relationship problems for one month. Do not complain about *anything*.
2) Cook him a nice dinner and let him read the paper or whatever when he comes home from work.
3) Touch him if you’re near him. Subtly flirt with him as if he was a genuine sexual prospect instead of a loser-nerd-wanker.
4) Do those things that girls seem to know how to do. Concoct a situation where he has to reach something for you or fix some kind of outlet or something. (Pretend like he is a handy man even if he isn’t.)
5) Somehow… accidentally get close to him… and when it starts to seem kind of hot… accidentally lose some clothing….
6) If you haven’t started having sex, yet… ask him to and see what happens.
Men are very good at reading women. A woman complaining that she can’t get it on with her husband is often sending a very clear message about what place her husband has in her sexual world. If she can lay down the blame and the contempt long enough to send a believable “come hither vibe,” I doubt she can fail for long if there is any degree of trust or commitment in the relationship.
Most women can talk for hours about why their situation is special and that it would be totally unjust for them to have to do anything remotely like the above Plan. They are so good at rationalizing all out warfare with their husbands that they probably don’t even know that that’s what they’re doing. They live in a world where they’ve done no wrong and where their husband can do nothing right… and they wonder why everything that they do to wear him down and cause him to submit to them kills the sexual chemistry. They have no idea….
Tracey the above answer is good. I dont necessarily see all the progression to her hanging out with friends outside the home and stuff. But the things are extremely subtle and men are not the slobbering boobs we are made out to be, meaning show up naked works for a while, but thats not enough after some years.
If they are not fat and ugly, and are “willing”, we must define some things. First, “willing” doesnt make me spring to a diamond cutter if you get my drift. Men have this thing where we want to be WANTED sexually. This is huge, and its very very easy to convey the converse after years of marriage, and its difficult to convey to him that she really wants him! Willing aint gonna cut it. Most times marriages go though some sex droughts. Most times its the woman who creates the drought. There is permanent scar tissue on a man after that, and it takes serious work to get him to see his wife as a woman who lusts for him, which is the ultimate thing.
Now, I cannot explain choosing porn in particular, and despite what a bunch of harpies have accused me of in the past i am morally opposed to porn, what Im saying is that its in steps, he loses his interest.in his wife maybe as I described above (things are never as simple as you have laid out for them)….thats step one. Step two is, his sex drive is still there, and he cannot face the rejection or even the fear of rejection, or face another obligation sex where she is “willing”, so he uses porn to get some relief. Its a lonely and bitter place for a man to get to, and what do we Chrisatians do about it? We scream and deride that evviiillll pornography using pervert, and never give a thought to any subtle back story that LIKELY exists. Sure there are guys who just wanna see porn. Usually though they will also have sex with the wife, sex with a woman is far better than a Mac Book, hell the name makes him feel gay……anyway, the poster above gave good advice on fixing it. Sex, when pops into the guys mind, needs to immediately trigger an image of a happy willing wife that longs for his rogering
Most women can talk for hours about why their situation is special and that it would be totally unjust for them to have to do anything remotely like the above Plan. They are so good at rationalizing all out warfare with their husbands that they probably don’t even know that that’s what they’re doing. They live in a world where they’ve done no wrong and where their husband can do nothing right… and they wonder why everything that they do to wear him down and cause him to submit to them kills the sexual chemistry. They have no idea….
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Some guy said this and its dead spot on. And you Tracey need to get used to not accepting things ate face value when the sisters say them. Think about it, have you ever met or known of a woman who for example just flat owned her divorce? Or have they all had complicated stories?
I remember once during counseling years ago when I was separated from wife at her insistence when the MALE counselor asked us to each say how WE thought WE should/could change and what we did wrong……it was confession time.
I listed off some blunt bullets of things about me
Her turn
She talked for a long time, using words that seemed to refer back to her, but thank God the guy was a guy….he after it was done asked “So, uh Mrs Empath, you do realize that despite that very long and detailed comment, you brought each and everything back around slowly to your husband”
I credit that guy with helping us as we reconciled, among other things.
He and I became friends in later years and he told me he saw that behavior nearly everytime he had couples in that didnt have true adultery or one beating the other, IOW marriages with conflicts where the woman wants out. He also told me that in my case, I have to be vague, he had some meetings with other peripheral people about their issues, it was independent but they people knew us, and he was described a situation for my marriage that looked nothing like the story my wife convincingly described, and had told her friends. We all do this, women are EXPERT at it, and frankly, women do not hold women accountable…..period….and no matter how hard you deny that, if I knew you well enough i could prove it in 5 minutes. You just dont do it except under extremely egregious circumstances.
So, you are getting her version, and the men wont share their version because they just want to stay married
Anika
I agree, you may want to settle for BOB or the hand. I have no idea how you look, but I see how you think. That trumps looks all day.
The rest of your boiler plate straw man assertions, well, we see those a lot, and dont bother with ’em
Jesus Dude! Just get a divorce.
empathologicalism What’s this “they” crap? You wrote your entire blog as if you have married every woman in the world. Just face it. You married a peice of work and its not working for you. Get out now before you are so bitter that you never recover. There is life after a bad marriage. And remember, your home should be your soft place to land not your battle ground. You have enough to deal with out in the work force.
Gee thanks for spelling all that out so eloquently. You sound like a real winner – NOT.
The above two posts are really good on the topic, Tracey. No man ever replaces a woman with porn. Ever. The only scenario that would ever be considered legitimate is if the man is looking at porn while the wife is in the other room as naked as the women in the porn begging to be rogered (to borrow the term already used). And most of us know that’s going to be near impossible. Those that claim it are the women like most others that are unwilling to claim any personal culpability in things, and won’t atone for what she did to cause it. It’s compounded by Churchianity railing against pornography, too. it seems useful to insert my commentary on how pornography should properly be seen in a Christian marriage here:
Like I wrote up above, if porn gets involved, there’s some other issue at play that’s unrelated to anything sexual. Usually it’s the wife attaching conditions to sexual access, or religious hangups (sex ain’t fornication if you’re married, Churchians drum the anti-fornication thing in very hard, so it’s difficult for women (and men to a lesser degree) to all of a sudden think of sex as “good” with a spouse), or some other issue that is making the man feel like he can’t get sex from his wife.
It probably should be helpful for me to define what I mean by “willing” and “interested” (I’ll refer to a woman from here on) as I wrote above. By willing, I mean the genuine desire that is expressed by the wife for sex with her husband and her husband alone, with no strings attached. This means like was said above that she needs to see and communicate that her husband gives her those desires and she wants them fulfilled by him alone (in other words, no flirting and falling all over men, no romcoms or googly eyes at the hot actor when watching TV, etc). In other words, she wants sex with him and makes him know it. It’s not sex on tap, like was mentioned above. There will be droughts and such as was mentioned for various reasons (legit sickness where it’s just not possible to do *anything*, there is a lot of latitude on the things one can do that constitutes as sex), but if it’s just making willful excuses (the old “not tonight honey I have a headache” cliche comes to mind) to not go for it there’s huge problems.
By “interested”, I mean that sex is something that she’s genuinely interested in and thinks about and looks forward to, and even fantasizes about doing with her husband. It means having an attitude towards it where it’s something good for both of them, and it’s okay if she indulges in it for satisfying her own desires.
Basically put in my mind for a wife, “willing” relates to satisfying his desires, “interested” relates to satisfying hers.
Annie
Okeedooo, you harpies from the equality central blog need to go back to the hidden forums area, please
Yawn….bitter angry man….yawn….your wife is making you mad…yawn….
Buh bye
@annie — “Gee thanks for spelling all that out so eloquently. You sound like a real winner – NOT.”
I’m not sure if that’s directed at me or not, but I’ll answer anyway.
You are responding to the description of a scenario that is very painful both to the wife and the husband… and your response is just… to the guy… “loser.” Let me unpack that for you: you’re saying that men that are not studly epic awesome alpha dudes deserve only contempt and should be treated like they don’t exist. Socially and morally, you have not developed beyond a high school level of maturity.
This sort of thing is not what people expect when they get married, the pattern (or something close to it ) can develop in otherwise normal couples, and if people don’t figure out how to deal with it… children are inevitably hurt when the household breaks apart.
I don’t know if you’re hot for divorce as being the great solution to this sort of thing, but if that’s so… you have no concern for the children involved whatsoever. No… maintaining some sort of varsity cheerleader type pecking order is really the only response you can come up with. Maybe I’m reading too much into your posts, but that sure seems cold, selfish, hateful, and short sighted.
Actually some guy, I suspect she is someone that knows me from other places, posting under a different name. A batch of them have found a haven at an egalitarian forum where they will not tolerate dissent, and now they are lashing out.
expect bad to come from it
Some Guy:
I went through something pretty similar with my wife last year.
My solution?
“Well, Mrs. Deti, if you’re so unhappy with me, maybe you’d be happier without me. Just say the word. I’ll get the bank accounts separated and call a lawyer. Oh, and I’ll quit my lucrative job and take one with lower pay and less stress. We’ll have to sell the house because neither of us will be able to afford the payments. You can move to an apartment with the kids. Get your resume ready, because you’ll most likely need to go back to work. You can raise our son on your own, because I won’t be around.
“You just let me know.”
The complaining and threatening stopped, and that right soon.
I’m just ready to walk – or force her to walk — if that’s what I have to do.
Here’s lookin’ at you, Anika Danford.
Men who read Anika’s comment, do realize she is very serious when it comes to her hatred of men. How she is on the internet is exactly how she is in real life. She’s here telling you what she really thinks of you men. If you’re not a hot alpha stud with the 6-6-9 configuration (over 6 feet, making 6 figures, 9 inch c*ck), then you’re labeled a “friend” or you get a nuclear rejection. Many of these women were passed around like blunts at frat parties in their younger years and are dense enough to believe they are entitled to a husband when they turn 35 and have been poked more times than a hot log in a fire, they act like bitches, and they have the pair bonding abilities of a mango. Men, get over the desire to marry these women. “Marriage” will only bring you untold misery, hatred and financial and emotional ruin. Get a computer with a fast internet connection or a sexbot. Neither of those things will empty your bank account or shit test you. Do any of you men really believe these women want you after being used up, crudded up and worn out by the alphas? Keep your salaries and nice homes. If a woman claims to want to be with you, she is more than likely seeking a sucker beta whom she can marry, use up, wring out and then divorce for cash and prizes, while looking around for the hot alpha stud with whom to cheat on you.
Pair bonding of a mango…..Man Go……yea I get it.
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving. How many more women will post here about how oh-so-very done they are with men, I wonder? It’s like an open-sided time capsule.
Deti, ain’t it funny how putting some serious chips on the table, looking ’em in the eye, and saying “Raise you, and call” reveals the bluff for what it is? That’s what Game predicts. It’s still remarkable to me when Game is proven correct, and almost everything I was taught about women proven false.
Almost everything, because one of my older relations once told me to read Chaucer to understand women, specifically the “Tale of the Wife of Bath”. That story makes much more sense than it used to.
Anon Reader:
If there’s nothing else I hope people take from my comments, I hope they get these things:
1. This is most important: Be prepared to walk away from a relationship with a woman if necessary.
2. Game works. It works on all women, of all stripes, of all persuasions, in all cultures, across all demographics, at all times, everywhere.
3. Men do not exist to serve women’s interests. If unmarried, they exist to serve their own interests before those of a woman, or women writ large. If married, they serve the interests of the marital unit before those of the individual wife.
4. No one is owed a spouse.
5. Unless she is your wife or mother, you owe her NOTHING.
6. Don’t marry unless you want children.
I’d say for the average guy – who might use porn occasionally but is by no means “addicted” – the primary appeal of porn is not triple-D gravity-defying boobs or scenes with five guys, three girls, and a mountain goat. It’s the fact that the women are *into it* – they don’t lay there and expect to be serviced. They take the initiative, they use their imaginations, they let their partners know what they want. You do that with your husband – and frequently – and I seriously doubt he will ever have a need for porn.
Some Guy and Empath: Thanks for all the info. I will consider it and I hope not to fall into those bad behaviors that women exhibit X number of years after being married. It’s great to see things from a male perspective. 🙂 I am also going to go out on an unpopular limb and empathize with the ladies commenting above. They are the female versions of many of the hurt, angry, disillusioned men commenting way above. Those are real feelings backed by real experiences. I hope they can find peace and happiness, like everyone else.
Ballista: “This means like was said above that she needs to see and communicate that her husband gives her those desires and she wants them fulfilled by him alone (in other words, no flirting and falling all over men, no romcoms or googly eyes at the hot actor when watching TV, etc).”
Really? Does this go for men, too? I don’t know any guy that doesn’t go crazy when the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue comes out every year or the Victoria Secret fashion show comes out. I don’t know any guy who doesn’t lose it or comment when some hot, half-naked cheer leaders are on during the game or hitting Hooters on their guys night out. I’ve had married men try “harmless” flirting with me in front of their wives or the minute their wives’ backs are turned. It saddens me deeply. How the heck am I supposed to respect men in the manner you’ve suggested, if they will never respect like that back?
You are in the minority of how you choose to treat marriage and women – the majority of men I have observed behave the way I’ve detailed above.
Deti: “If you’re not a hot alpha stud with the 6-6-9 configuration (over 6 feet, making 6 figures, 9 inch c*ck), then you’re labeled a “friend” or you get a nuclear rejection.”
I’m assuming that Anika is a little older. Don’t older women suffer from “friend” zoning and nuclear rejection, too, as they age? Isn’t her pain and anger as legit as anyone else’s here? Btw, lol regarding the “pair bonding of a mango”! I think I will remember that phrase for decades to come. 🙂
“I don’t know any guy that doesn’t go crazy when the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue comes out every year or the Victoria Secret fashion show comes out.”
Not every model worth noticing appears there.
You’ve found that one guy.
No charge for that tip 🙂
Tracy:
“I am also going to go out on an unpopular limb and empathize with the ladies commenting above.”
Feel free to empathize because they are suffering, both the men and the women. Keep in mind however, that it was those women who caused most of their own suffering. Women just like them also caused much of the male pain you see here. I feel sorry for the pathetic broads too, but I know full well they are the ones responsible for the vast majority of their own misery.
^ Reminds me of this:
@ Tracey
Men who are being regularly serviced by their women aren’t spending a lot of time looking at women in magazines or on tv. The guys you are noticing fit into the other group where their women withhold or ration sex.
I personally know several christian women who turned down numerous advances. Some of them dated quite normal (ie beta) men. I knew most of them. None of them were good enough, apparently. Not enough tingles, although i never heard that preached as a reason to end relationships.
Now those women are in their forties, whose fault is it they are still single?
@deti
“6. Don’t marry unless you want children.”
Or unless you want to be sexually active. A Christian man who chooses not to marry does not sin, so long as he remains celibate.
Rico: Thank you for your insight. The way you’ve phrased it makes it seem like the woman has some control over what happens.
Ray: “Not every model worth noticing appears there.” What exactly does that mean? It means that while there are plenty of gorgeous women in those magazines that do capture your attention, there are also gorgeous women elsewhere that capture your attention more so. How exactly is that supposed to make a woman (say, your future wife) feel better? How does that comply with what Ballista was saying about not drooling over people who aren’t your spouse? You make it sound like you are some exception, but you aren’t. Plenty of the men who ogle those women, will still always recollect some hotter babe they saw somewhere else or saw in some other form of media (“Yes, Kate Upton is hot, but Scarlet Johannson is hotter” or “the chick I saw last night at the club was waaaaay hotter!”). I’m sorry, but you sound like 90% of the guys I know (the other 10% being gay).
DriverSuz: I agree with you that we all create our own misery, to some extent. Playing devil’s advocate, how can you be so confident that the men had no hand in the female commenter’s misery? I’ve always assumed that both parties are to blame for discord.
Goodfoot: Good to know. 😉
Observer: Your post is depressing. 😦
Tracey, don’t be disheartened. The average woman is certainly attractive enough. In any case, no sensible man marries only for the girl’s looks. I have always been satisfied with my wife’s appearance. No woman is perfect, but most have good features that can be played up.
Tracey,
Not meant to depress. Each of those women turned down numerous good beta men. They were not supermodels, just normal women who believed a better, more attractive, more alpha man was just around the corner.
I dated one of those women. After several months, she ended it, out of the blue. She went on to other men and did the same. Now she is 40, still single, and the guys are not asking anymore.
A cautionary tale.
Now, get out there, show interest in guys interests and see what happens.
Yeah, Tracey. Go get ’em, Girl. Don’t spend all your time talking to old coots like me.
Tracey: what makes a “player”? …. Most guys try to hook up and get laid when they are young. I figure that’s just how guys are. But should I penalize guys who are more successful in getting laid (former players) more than guys who were less successful but still wanted the same thing (regular betas)? Aren’t all guys players to some extent (at least when they are young)?
No, some of us are religious and/or just plain old fashioned. Statistics show, BTW, that among college age folks, male virgins outnumber the females. Some of these, to be sure, are “losers” who couldn’t get laid for trying, but others are men like me who turned down opportunities on account of God or honor or fear of disease or some combiination of those factors.
Such men are ruthlessly mocked in church for some odd reason.
Thanks, David C and Observer. The weird thing is, you present conflicting thoughts. On the one hand, Observer remarks that these women are 40 and no one wants to ask them out, presumably because they are less attractive because they are older. On the other, David C (and Ballista and Deti) note that most women are adequate and that men aren’t only concerned with looks. I understand looks create attraction, but these ideas are a little at odds. If Observer said that men were rejecting these women because they slept around too much in their youth or they were bitter or snotty or let themselves go, that would be different.
David C. Lol! You certainly are not an old coot! And I thoroughly enjoy talking (writing?) to you! 🙂 I actually was thinking about your comments today – about how you (and the others) advocate showing active interest in guys. That’s hard, because I’m painfully shy in real life (a big reason why I’m single, I believe). I will try, though. 🙂
van Rooinek: Yes, it is hard for male virgins. Though, I think that if the guy is able to demonstrate that he isn’t otherwise socially inept or awkward (basically, that he IS a virgin by choice), he’d be ostracized less. And no, it’s not fair at all.
van Rooinek, I turned some girls down, partly for religious reasons. Eventually a girl got me drunk …
Tracey, if I became a widower, I would be looking at 40 year olds. Some of them are fine. I am 57, my wife is 51. I still think she looks good, tho’ I am probably imbuing her with some of the charms she had as a 25 year old. Bonding.
I have never minded the older woman. And attitude is as important as age.
Look, you are a girl. You don’t have to pounce on the guy. Just send out clear signals. I am shy myself. My wife got me interested by inviting me to a party; teasing and arguing with me; telling me that she had been skinny-dipping in a pool at a house she was minding (that mental image was very appealing); offering me her virginity (!); and warning off a bimbo-ish rival.
“All’s fair in love and war”.
Be careful with the virginity one.
The best way to a man’s heart is through his ego. Other men may be different, but I found women attractive who found me attractive. Don’t overdo it, and act like a groupie. Just show a real, strong interest in him. Apart from anything else, inside every so-called beta, there is an alpha somewhere. If you make him feel like a man, he will see you as a woman.
Be careful with the virginity one.
Appeal to his masculinity. If you make him feel like a man, he will see you as a woman. And he will warm to you.
Tracey,
You’re playing the stereotype card. Whilst men prefer attractive women, we are influenced by other factors. Give us some credit …
A woman’s peak attractiveness is for a short window of her life. But the issues that keep her single can be less to do with how she looks. It can be more about her perception of her looks, her overinflated expectations of a partner and her degree of entitlement that influences her willingness to submit to a man and a lifelong marriage (remember we’re talking christians, now).
I get the impression you want more information on why they’re still single. You are 27 and mostly 15 years younger than them. Sure, I can play that game. I will not crucify the women involved, that would be unfair and unnecessary. Here are some of the reasons I think they’re still single:
1. Turning down reasonable prospects;
2. Breaking up relationships for no legitimate reasons (lack of tingles doesn’t count);
3. Excessive focus on career (including church and mission work);
4. Lesbianism;
5. Unresolved emotional intimacy issues;
6. Excess weight from being a shift worker, little self respect, sloppy dress etc;
7. Taking the counsel of female ‘friends’;
8. Running away to the mission field;
9. Delusions of equality, fairness, and a ballbreaker ‘you go girl’ mentality
10. Pining for an unavailable man.
Obviously, some fit multiple categories.
The 40 year old whom noone asks anymore probably fits categories 3, 5 and 8. Not that she’s become an old hag, as I’ve seen a recent photo. But like the story of missionary Amy recently discussed, move to the ends of the earth just means your problems go with you and the chances of marrying from your own cultural group are somewhat more limited.
Would a confident, high achieving virgin man be respected in most churches?
Clearly, the answer is no. This is the outcome of the delusional feminists ‘double standard’.
A redeemed church virgin is portrayed as a repentent, marriage-ready woman for whom there are no good men. But a virginal man that has spent his twenties dateless is EXPECTED to be socially awkward, living in his mother’s garage and subjectd to a barrage of shaming langauge.
THIS is the double standard.
And quite frankly, I will never understand how the average church can so disdain its male membership, encourage its younger women to pursie pointless careerism, and shame its younger men into trying harder when clearly, they never had a chance against wommen pining after the recently-converted guitar playing, tattooed Harley-riding worship leader that used to play in a rock band.
Rant over . . .
Tracey,
I think that the age thing being based entirely on looks is a bit exaggerated, as David alluded to, a lot also has to do with children. They are probably related; I’m sure it’s no coincidence that men are most attracted to women in their prime childbearing years. If a guy wants children, you’re 40 year old is way past prime.
A desire for children is also a point an observer left out, is that if your 40 year old has no children, she possibly has raging, tsunami-sized, baby rabies. I have seen it in ‘liberated, independent, professional’ women pushing 40 at the workplace. It is not pretty in 30-year olds, and far less so in a 40 year old. And they are not exactly at their peak mental efficiency for mate selection, either, more along the lines of ‘I need a man; he’ll do”. Very much looking for Mr. Right Now, as opposed to Mr. Right An enormous, catastrophic risk to anyone.
I’d never looked at this unintentionally hilarious/sad thread before, which really shows that despite a century of women being liberated (from common sense) and despite fabulous corporate careers and fat pay cheques what they really cannot stand is, simply, no longer being seventeen (C.S. Lewis was right). How many comments from women who never otherwise trouble the comments section of this board read (I paraphrase): ‘I am a sixty five year old woman who looks not a day over thirty-nine and I get all the attention I need from men half my age/Have no interest in men who are all losers with small penises and I never liked those things anyway’. Some devestating comments, frequently by Deti – but then he has the advantage of being the possessor of a fully-working J36B Hamsterlator.
Tracy
The reason we say those women made their own misery is the evidence is buried in their comments, you just have to know how to spot it. The expected rebuttal would be that, well then you men seem the same way….but be very careful there, because men communicate very differently than women generally. What men say here is what they mean, no subtext, no need for it. Women OTOH infer and imply, set up tricks to pull if there is a next textual exchange, play impeachment and relativism, misrepresent what men say then rebut the misrepresentation, and ironically while those women are from the all people are unique snowflakes BUT there are no general gender tendencies everyone is the same (cant follow that but oh well) they are the guilty ones of stereotype guiding their behavior as they basically skim our posts already supposedly know what we are going to say, then they respond to that….not to what we say. They do that by assumption, or by inferring their own subtext trickery into our words.
I say all that to explain that that’s why we can tell they made their own issues. They are painfully high maintenance, flippant (see the stupid remarks to me how I married a bad women and need to divorce…..pure assumption, and badly wrong) to the point of being intolerable for the average man.
About swim suit issue etc….I think you exaggerate saying the men get all excited as a group, much of what you think is excitement is boys club schtick , a sort of frat boy funny tongue in cheek thing. Sure men like to look at women scantily dressed, we are made to like that and created to have to keep that in check, its one of our proclivities. But the nature of the female fantasy, while yea, it can and does include thumping rogering, bodice ripping perhaps, it also foists and emotional assumption in. Thats why as deti or brendan, one of them, often say, when a women has an affair, she is most likely GONE emotionally, where when a man does, odds are he was after sex and adventure and the later is more reparable (both are equally wrong, one has better remediation stats)
Tracy,
You don’t seem to get it. Sure, you comment and and say (more or less) “hey, I really want to learn from that; it’s great to hear a different perspective!” Then you turn around and immediately try to find some sort of moral equivalency so that you can pull the teeth out of some of the things that are said here. This undermines your credibility and makes it seem like you aren’t really paying attention.
“I will consider it and I hope not to fall into those bad behaviors that women exhibit X number of years after being married.”
You are so nonchalant about this. You have no idea how hard what you’re talking about is. Man, you “hope” you don’t fall into that. Well… guess what? Everything you hear on TV, in romantic comedies, in sermons from the pulpit, in women’s magazines will encourage you to go in the absolute worse direction. Women have layers upon layers of defenses to redirect anything that would ever come close to shaming them. The default setting of the modern woman is to embrace a life of serial monogamy. Even if she has found Mr Right, she is spiritually and biologically wired to tear him down in order to continually prove that he *still* is Mr Right. And assuming he doesn’t measure up, she can rationalize outright cruelty to him and blame him for it in the process. Counselling and “spiritual” guidance brought to bear on that is more than likely to feed and accelerate it!
The reason that there is not much need to aggressively pursue some sort of moral equivalency here is because all of the infrastructure to shame and blame and punish men is not only still in place, but it has been strengthened. The corresponding checks on the worst aspects of female nature have been systematically replaced with systems that reward that and encourage it.
Exactly….some guy….exactly. Like I said to GKC, the infatuation with ‘balance’ which we saw manifest in Melissas comments, and GKC’s dogged condemnation of PUA’s as the evil-er evil is some conventional wisdom driven appeal to nice and fairness….balance. But the teeter totter is literally mashed deeply into the ground on one side, and cemented over. Balance consequently cannot happen, the cement is adhered to the board. The ONLY way to even begin to address the fantasy of balance is to press so incredibly hard on the other side the board snaps off right where the feminist cement is, letting it roll away and become a rock….where folks write graffiti and occasionally take a leak on it.
Tracey, David Collard has 25 or more years of shared history with his wife. Plus his “mental Rolodex” has memories of her through those years, visual and otherwise. She is a known quantity.
On the other hand, a 40 year old woman with whom one has no shared history, is a very much unknown quantity. It could be she rode the carousel, or it could be she has some toxic personality trait, or it could be she pined for some man she could not obtain for years. There’s a lot of unknowns, and a woman of 33 who has had fewer years to build up more quirks and expectations is very possibly preferable to the 40 year old, especially if the latter rejected marriage offers in earlier years.
Suggested reading: “For Women Only” by Shaunti Feldhahn. Perhaps by reading this book, widely available, you can get your mind around the deep differences between men and women. You can go to her website http://www.shaunti.com/ for a start.
I will share one fact with you: Feldhahn had a poll done of over 1,000 men, and one of the things that she found was that given a choice between being loved and being respected, over 80% of men would prefer…respected. I cosign this finding, when I read it I found myself nodding in agreement. As a man, I have lived at times for some years with no love, aside from familial love at a distance. I have also lived at times with no respect; the contempt of a woman is like acid, it eats away at many parts of a man. Living alone with a cat or a dog is much, much to be preferred over living with a woman who does not respect me. Been in all those places, done that, and some things will not be put up with again, either.
Now, most women’s mouths drop open in surprise – live without being loved? Are you nuts?
No. I am a man. Full stop.
Strongly suggest you read the books. Typically they are not in the “self help” or “relationship” section but in the Christian book section of your local B&N bookseller. Or just buy online. If you are serious about marrying, and being married that book is a very good place to start.
(Many women want to get married. They want “their day”. Not so many anymore want to be married.)
Yes, Tracey, if you learn nothing else here, learn this. Respect is paramount for men. That was partly what I was saying about attracting a man. Respect for a man is like catnip for cats. Contrast this with the silly, rude, dismissive tone of some of the women on this thread. And ask yourself if they sound happy.
For some strange reason, the message got around that men really need to be constantly insulted as a sex. Some of what you read here from men is just the growing reaction to this abuse. I wonder how much longer it can go on.
Some women really need to wake up. There are too many women like Melissa with an unearned sense of entitlement, who presume to prattle at and lecture men, and who are wandering into their mid-30s without a clue. Don’t end up like that.
@ Tracey
+1 to AR’s recommendation of “For Women Only”. I just started reading this book and I’m amazed at how much I didn’t get and still learning about.
My husband took me as his wife twenty-six years ago come later this summer. I wish I had known long ago what I know now. My marriage has changed so much over the past two years that I cannot even begin to explain in just a comment. The needs of a man are different than the needs of a woman.
It’s really not difficult, but you first throw out everything you learned about relationships from birth to this point. Don’t ask your girlfriends for advice, they will only spit out the same fallacies they’ve also been fed and deride you for even thinking anything different. They are on power trips and any threat to what they feel they are ‘entitled’ to will only set them off and they will do all they can to derail you because misery loves company.
@David Collard
Respect is surely the pecking order that men instinctively get into amongst themselves. (O/T the desperate attempts by Gay men to demand Respect or Black People of the Ali G type to do likewise fall on deaf ears) It is why when a man enters a Bar, the other men do NOT instantly welcome him with open arms and offer to buy him a drink; why men do NOT have fifty facebook messages telling him how cute his new photo looks; and why when his girlfriend leaves him for Harley McBadBoy his mates will NOT lend a supportive shoulder but conclude he must have been inadequate as a lover.
Does the concept of respect intra-woman even exist? I doubt it. As you can see from this thread the question is merely, how many years younger than her actual age does she look i.e. can she still attract men ?(whether she claims she has more attention than she can handle or has sworn off all men for life) A man who has been sent to Coventry by his peers may well be suicidal as society shuns him. A man who is out of luck on the romantic front, merely shrugs his shoulders and says tomorrow is another day. 🙂 (O/T the slut-walkers are desperate to avoid shunning by other women for being sluts but I cannot think of any other behaviour for which women are shunned, and then again the slut-walkers merely want to avoid being shunned by MEN. As with the Gay Pride Marchers all the walking in the world will have no effect whatsoever). Men like to be loved and even more to give love, but if he is perceived as a loser, he will neither have love or respect – so respect comes first.
but I cannot think of any other behaviour for which women are shunned
Being a wife who enjoys being lead by her husband and it completely happy in that role. Heh.
Some guy,
I see that pattern too, and it makes me wonder
Actually, it bothers me.
There are several possible explanations.
1. She honestly thinks like this, which is rather scary.
2. She only writes like this, producing a chasm between what she writes, and what she thinks.
3. She writes intentionally like this, despite what she thinks.
Option 1 seems unlikely, if her story as a pre dental student is to be believed. Surely her head would need to be screwed on more than what the logic would suggest.
Option 2 is quite possible, given the lack of malice seen and the consistency of this style, which i see a lot on public sites, particularly from women writers.
Option 3 is possible, but i think less likely. Unless she’s a longterm plant from a newspaper or government department, most women would have reacted, got offended and left by now.
I find Tracey’s logical leaps hard to follow. Were i a suspicious soul, i would suggest that asking more questions in an enquiring tone is an attention getting behaviour. For what reason, i have no idea.
@Tracey A little late, but felt I had to answer a couple of these things. A number of the posts you’ve read are very good, you need to think on them.
Tracey wrote:
You’ve met number 2. While I was a little more that way in my younger years, I figured out there’s much more interesting about women than images, if there *is* something more interesting. There are “models worth noticing” that are less physically attractive than the women in Sports Illustrated, because they have something else to offer that raises the attractive level. You’d be surprised how hot a partner can get after a while if that something else is there.
I am a man, though. Men look, because men enjoy how women look. Women are beautiful. For example, when I started hearing about Kate Upton a lot in the media, I looked for what/who she is and found some revealing images, and got to see how she looks. If a good looking woman walks by, he will notice and he might even say something. Women are the same. It’s just a hard wired fact of life. The issue is one more of self-control than anything. Is he or she going to do anything more about it than just look, enjoy, and move on if he or she has a spouse/LTR? I might acknowledge to someone that I like how a woman looks, but I won’t go any farther. People have their differing lines and what I was communicating was that line for me. What I quoted above seems to definitely be over the line for most part, IMO. It’s not about respecting men in general anyway, it’s about respecting the one man that’s your husband. You do have control over what happens with your man, when you find him as it regards to desire.
Tracey wrote:
See this again: http://i.imgur.com/85Yef.jpg (if you haven’t already). It explains it. If a woman has something *else* that is attractive to offer rather than her looks, that will take precedence with time. But as noted in different places, it takes some looks to get by, but nothing that most women can’t satisfy if they take care of themselves. The problem with most women today, especially as they get older, is that in the end they have nothing *else* to offer other than sex. If that’s the case, most men will (rightly) either see her as a pump-n-dump if they feel she can risk her negatives and if she’s hot enough, or pass on her entirely. That’s the thing with most of the women you run into of this nature. They’re so prideful and arrogant and full of themselves that they can’t stop and ask themselves what they have to offer, and provide an honest assessment to themselves.
Thank you, David. C, for your support and advice.
Ballista: I get what you’re saying. The only thing that made me dispute it is, “..(in other words, no flirting and falling all over men, no romcoms or googly eyes at the hot actor when watching TV, etc)”
If you get to look up naked or revealing pics of other women online, I don’t get why a woman can’t watch romcoms or make “googly eyes” at a hot actor. Are they really that different?
Tracey, my wife has a number of blokes on TV whom she finds “cute and cuddly”, but she tends to refer them back to me. (They are cuddly and cute like me, she says.) It reminds me of a saying, “it doesn’t matter where you get your appetite, so long as you eat at home”.
As for scantily clad females, sometimes I try not to look, sometimes it is hard not to. I sometimes comment, often just to tease my wife. I try not “to lust after” with my eyes. I know that I wouldn’t actually choose to sleep with those other women, even if I could. We both know that we are sexually exclusive.
Tracey, I am taking you at your word, that you are what you say you are. Some people here seem to have their doubts. But I tend to be the trusting type.
David C, I understand what you’re saying, I just wanted to point it out to Ballista. Yeah, I noticed that people have their doubts – I can’t defend myself anymore or try to change people’s minds. It feels like I’ve overstayed my welcome. Just wanted to say thank you for being kind and helpful. Best wishes.
@Tracey:
“I’m sorry, but you sound like 90% of the guys I know.”
You’ll have to deal with us someday. After all, I am real sure you are the kind of girl who reads a lot of romance books. 🙂
If you want a guy who worships you … you’d better stay attracted to him.
Or else you are asking for the guy who can leave you at a moments’ notice. Fairness … is troublesome sometime, and asks a lot of the people who want it.
Yep
Dude might
quit it quit it quit it
the hit it
Crap
THEN….not the
Way to ruin a lame joke
P Ray: No, I actually don’t have to deal with guys like you someday. You sound like the type of guy that would hurt me.
I already said I don’t read romance novels, but you can believe whatever the heck you want….
“You sound like the type of guy that would hurt me.”
Every woman has to deal with the reality that men are not Jacob or Edward from Twilight.
Or that billionaire Mr. Grey.
On the other hand, you sound like the type of woman who’ll hurt a man because he doesn’t measure up to your inflated ideal of what he should be (thus providing you the perfect excuse to string him along – because nice guys never want anything physical, and if a man suggests you should be closer physically, he is a player).
Nice gig you got going there, Tracey.
And precisely the reason why men should let women own their choices in relationships and take the consequences.
And you sound very critical – no woman would ever be worthy of you. You’d fight with her and make her pay for all your previous failures in love. “Stupid woman, that’ll teach you and your kind!”
“your previous failures in love”
I find myself less concerned with actual discussion and more with pointing out illustrative examples. Thank you for your contribution.
“You’d fight with her and make her pay for all your previous failures in love.”
That’s how so many romantic movies go.
Are they … WRONG? Oh noes 1111!
You forget that if it comes to fighting, I’d rather leave than blame her.
Which also stings a lot more … because a woman used to abuse, abusing a nice guy … deserves to have him leave her.
And how am I going to make her pay? She’s not a T1000 that can magically become those other women.
Because … there is always another woman out there, and the opportunity cost of educating someone who’d rather be right in the eyes of her friends, that in the eyes of the guy she’s supposedly in a relationship with … is simply not worth it.
p ray, i’ll do you one better. i would prefer not to deal with the guy in the first place- rather than wait around for us to start fighting or for him to leave me. you’re right – there is always another woman out there. l encourage guys like you to go find her and leave me be.
@Tracey:
You will be competing with other women for the desirable men.
Whether you like it or not.
Yay for the sisterhood 🙂
P Ray: I’m not competing with anyone (I gave up). I relinquish the desirable men to my more worthy female counterparts. Hope they make rainbows in the sky together. Take care.
@Deti – kudos for posting- good stuff.
Hope you will continue to find the guidance you’re looking for, Tracey.
Yes, Tracey, don’t flounce off to your boudoir like the other girls.
Well Tracy, I wish you good luck in your future choices and credit where it’s due. You did at least try to listen to people such as Deti and Dalrock; and continued visiting this site well beyond the 72 hour mark that TFH sets for most women commentators that grace us with their presence .
It’s good, in a way, that you realise that life, relationships and marriage are not rainbows and unicorns but that shouldn’t mean giving up. That which is worth fighting for is only worth so much because it is so hard to come by. By wishing it to be easy, you are in fact destroying its worth and reason for being in the first place.
All I can tell you is this… Keep trying; and make the necessary changes in your life. Don’t look to the past but to your future. And finally, if this blog no longer gives you any enlightenment or makes you feel like giving in, move on. You now have some perspective of what men think and feel about relationships and marriage and instead of you giving up, you should use that to your advantage.
Take care.
i appreciate the kind sentiments. i’m just sick of dealing with the same old crap. a meek, geeky, not so attractive guy in my class asked me out to dinner. even though he wasn’t the guy that would normally make me tingle, i gave him the benefit of the doubt and figured he might be a decent guy if i got to know him. he reminded me repeatedly about our upcoming date and how much he was looking forward to it. his enthusiasm was so sweet and i felt excited about getting to know him. the night came: he not only stood me up (kept me waiting while i was starving), he called hours later to tell me he wasn’t feeling well. i stepped out that night to the cafes around school to grab a bite, only to spot him on a date with another (arguably prettier) girl in our class! they were holding hands and laughing and flirting!
this isn’t the first time this kind of thing has happened to me. you can complain all you want about how awful women are, but i’ve got plenty of stories about what jerks guys are (and no, they aren’t Alpha McStudds). another guy i started talking to months before this incident was a “good Christian” guy who told me he was single. he didn’t tell me that he was “on a break” from his long term girlfriend and just using me as an emotional rebound until they figured things out. when i figured it out, i ended communication with him, he ran back to her, leaving me hurt. crap like this reminds me of why i didn’t date more in the past and why i won’t in the future. guys are just a-holes.
Tracey:
OK. You’ve been hurt. You’ve received just about the best advice the manosphere has to offer on dating, sex and relationships. Despite what you wrote about in your last post in which you called all men a-holes, the advice you’ve received here will give you the best chance to find a lasting relationship with a good man of character.
The men you wrote about in your last post might be a-holes. Or they might be confused about what they want. Or they might be doing what they’ve watched women doing their whole lives – trying to maximize their results while minimizing their effort. I told you several dozen posts up that you, as a 27 year old virgin, would be viewed as an easy mark for douchebags looking to close to P in V sex fast. They will try to capitalize on your sexual inexperience.
If you do try dating again, remember this:
1. Cads will try to light you up like a Christmas tree with emotional manipulation; and if that doesn’t work, they’ll lie and fraud you. You’ll have to navigate it as best you can.
2. Decide how far you are willing to go BEFORE a date, and stick to it no matter what.
3. Your continuing in dental school makes it that much harder for you to find a man to whom you can be attracted long term. You need to be aware of this. Hypergamy is a constantly running subroutine deep inside every woman. The single driving force in your sexual composition is hypergamy – the overwhelming drive to mate with a man you can and do look up to, and the imperative to reject men you don’t respect.
4. Most of the men you will encounter live in a world so shot through with feminism that they’ve forgotten how to be men. They are living and working side by side with women who are so incredibly hypergamous and “empowered” that no man alive short of a hybrid of George Clooney, Warren Buffett and Jesus Christ could satisfy them. Any man you date will need your encouragement to lead you.
Best to you,
deti
Tracey, sorry that crap like that happened to you. Deti usually has good advice. I really don’t have anything more to add.
Deti – I understand #1 and #2, but I don’t agree with #3. Actually, the fact that I’ve had such terrible experiences in dating is encouraging me to continue with dentistry. I feel like the majority of men I’ve met cannot be trusted and that I really have to look out for myself in this world. I need to be able to support myself and my little brother, if anything happens to my parents. There may be one guy out there who is worth trusting, but what if I NEVER find him and I gave up my career for nothing? I am not a dentist and I’ve spent 27 years being a non-dentist and haven’t found anyone. They say to look to the past to see into the future – it’s doubtful things will change. So I better just take care of myself. Anyway, after all this, I feel like the majority of men are just scum – yes, I am turning into one of those bitter women you make fun of above. Regarding #4, I wish you would realize that even your “good guys” and betas are douchebags. Stop vilifying women and realize that men hurt women just as much. I hope that I’ve given you a little insight into how those bitter, single women are created.
Thanks – Koevoet
And to be honest, the few times I did date in undergrad I had similar experiences to what I outlined above. That’s probably why I recoiled from dating and just focused on my family. What about the years of torment I’ve faced at the hands of young men -who are only focused on getting laid or landing the hottest chick possible, rather than getting to know you and forming a relationship? I’m sick of hearing about how terrible women are. Men are just as bad.
“Or they might be doing what they’ve watched women doing their whole lives – trying to maximize their results while minimizing their effort”
So when men do it, it’s just strategy. but when women do it, we’re just entitled, heartless little bitches. enough with the double standards.
I have been following the blog with Tracey. I being male consider myself to be a good guy, maybe how Tracey states one of the few. But I. Can tell you that the experiences I have had with women and dating have changed me and I can see the changes in my atitude towards dating and women and it has not been a positive change. To me women are abusive, like to take advantage of men and the money and the norm that men have to pick up the taband they all have this entitlement atitude. So yes I have become one of those mean Tracey mentions but as of a result of how women have treated me. Maybe Tracey has a point maybe we have done this to eAch other but let’s follow the trail back to where it started, hence the Chicken or the egg. As I see it women had it easy and the norm was the man chasing and paying but women did themselves in by wanting to be the same as men and DEMANDING it. Men got fed up with the attitude and retaliated. And here we are blaming each other!
Thanks for proving the point of this blog Tracy. Your small life story proves entirely that women are done with men. So please, do us all a favour and go live your life. All men and women are literally selfish pieces of turd crap. The difference is that women have had their entitlement attitudes, selfishness and hatred of men turned into legislation. They use law enforcement to further their needs.
A few men turned out to be crap dates, so what? Happens to men countless times. Did they use your money? Did they get married to you and then drag you through court, take your kids, your house, the rest of you life to go pursue their EPL fantasy? Do men have the ability to wreck womens’ lives via the courts, to send women to jail on account of false rape accusations and alimony and child support? Oh, guess not, but since men aren’t always the best, we just better shut up about that, huh?
You really aren’t worth the time that Deti and Dalrock spent on you. Go cry somewhere else please.
I didn’t say that men should shut up about it. I didn’t deny that women do bad things. I just said that men hurt women, too, and I was tired of that being ignored. All these posts that I was getting advice on how to be good to regular guys just assumed that they would be good to me. I foolishly took it for granted.
I do appreciate the time Deti and Dalrock spent. I’m sorry what I wrote was inflammatory.
Feminist Hater: If women using men for money is part of the issue, wouldn’t women entering the work force help to prevent men from losing their shirts in divorce (or at least lessen the risk)?
Tracey:
Recognize all this for what it is: you are hurt because a guy you agreed to go out with stood you up for someone you think is prettier, and some other guy went back to his GF.
These are feelings. Feelings are not facts and they are not the truth. Go ahead, feel them, and let them pass on through. You’ll feel better in a day or two.
Men deal with these kinds of feelings and rejections on a daily basis.
Do not make decisions about your life based on feelings. That’s what gets us to “I’m not haaaaappy” divorces.
Tracey:
Women entering the work force prevents men and women from getting married in the first place.
If women working doesn’t prevent marriage, it disincentivizes women from staying married, because they become financially independent and decide they no longer want or need husbands.
Sex is easy for her to get, and she can work to earn money. It’s not a difficult leap to “I don’t need this husband” or “I don’t need a husband in the first place”.
I think what Tracey has to say (along with many of the “bitter men”) cuts to the quick of the NAWALT/NAMALT and bitterness issues. No, not all men are the turds that Tracey has had the misfortune of running in to. The problem is, all the ones she has run in to are “like that”. Same thing for many of the “bitter” men. Seeing as Tracey went out on a date with a meek, geeky, not so attractive guy who didn’t give her the tingles shows that she might have put some effort into finding a decent guy, not just some cad. I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.
She got burned, and now she is probably bitter. You can tell her NAMALT all you want but it does no good if all the men she has dealt with up to this point have been like that. I am not as bitter as many men are precisely because I have never been through a divorce (never married), and while I have had plenty of worthless bitches reject me, dump me, tell me they were not ready for a relationship while they were banging some Insane Clown Posse reject, etc… I have met some, albeit very few, NAWALT women. I may not have gotten with either of these women (yet) but it shows me that there are some women out there that will be worth my financial, emotional, and temporal efforts.
Tracey, there are men out there who are genuinely decent men. God willing you will run into one someday and you will be able to look past your previous shit experiences and have a good life with someone, making both of you happy (note, not haaaappy). I cannot make any promises that it will happen, but I sure as hell will hope and pray that it does. I have no desire to see ALL women suffer for the sins of some of them…though I must admit, I LOVE seeing some of them suffer for their own sins! /schadenfreude
Tracey,
I can’t help but notice that you came on the internet, found a small corner of it and engaged in a discussion for about—what? Five months now. You’ve read the words of some men who are frustrated and wrote some things that you may not have felt were very nice, they don’t have to be, that’s what these blogs are about; but you’ve also gotten personal advice—really great advice—from other men. You’ve continued to come back and post during the months which says you felt there was something here for you to glean. And yet now you want to give in to your feelings. Just as deti said, they are feelings. The fact is that you found good men here that you felt had something to offer (good advice); there are probably good men around you that you maybe just don’t see.
You’re recent responses sound like those of a woman who is feeling like things are not going as she would want them to go and therefore wants to just walk away and forget about putting in any more work and effort. This is how so many women respond to their marriages—just walk away and forget about putting in any more work and effort.
I’m not trying to sound harsh, just trying to point out that it is too easy for women to give in to their emotions and not put much thought into their actions, don’t think through the consequences, and just act on impulse. This is one of the main reasons I am thankful to have my husband to help me put things into perspective and see what the truth is, he thinks so differently than I do. You don’t have that benefit at the current time, but you do have a lot of wisdom in this corner of the internet. I know you won’t like everything you read, I didn’t either to be truthful, but when you really think it through—without the emotions—and you take a careful examination of what is being said—and not take it personally—it falls into place and you cannot help but see how much truth you are reading. It’s difficult to let go of what you’ve been taught from infancy, and it is a war inside you, I know, I’ve battled it and still do at times only not as much, but when you finally do let go there is contentment. It still isn’t easy, but there is freedom in truth.
I do hope you do see the good men who are around you, they are there. Look for the positives first; it’s too easy to be critical at first glance. First impressions are lasting, so if you look for what’s good that will be your first impression. Take these words for what they’re worth as I didn’t have time to go back and reread all your comments and don’t recall all the details.
Yup, Deti, I’m emotional and upset and it’s eating away at my faith in men and making me bitter.
Thank you, Koevoet, that’s a very empathetic post. I do think guys should realize that the world doesn’t revolve around young women, we do get burned, too. I’ve been stood up before, I’ve been rejected for being a virgin, and I’ve been passed up for other girls (who were complete bitches). I tell myself that these guys were jerks and I spared myself future heartache, but it still hurt nonetheless. So I understand what you are saying about those awful women in your past.
Jacquie: I appreciate the sentiment, but I don’t believe I will find contentment in the truth. The truth: I loathe being female. I hate that I’m judged and valued (at least initially) by my looks. I hate that I only have a limited (ever shrinking) window for having kids. I hate that men don’t have to worry about these things and will one day use these things against me. [All the angry men can rejoice in my sadness here] You are right, though – it is a war inside. I often think, “Screw it! I give up! I reject all this.” You can’t fail at something you don’t attempt. I do look for the best in men, but I think this is my downfall – I’m letting sugar-coated a-holes in.
Tracey, Red Pill for girls. You are in your prime right now. You must act now. If anything, you are running slightly late. Your being a virgin is a plus. It is a selling point. Of course men who want to have sex with you with no real commitment find that frustrating. A real potential husband will likely be pleased you are a virgin.
Yes, there is pressure on you because you are a young female. But that is not going to get less as you get older. The reason you are assessed on your appearance is, deep down, because it reflects your fertility. Nature is sending out signals that you are ripe to bear children. You would do well to cooperate with Nature.
Everyone has a reputation that gets around. Make sure people know you are interested in getting married, being a supportive wife and having children. If you are in dental school, you must work especially hard on your image. I suspect men are saying to themselves, “Oh, a career woman. Not a marriage prospect, not very beautiful, but she might put out easily.” You have to market yourself and send out the correct signals NOW.
Tracy, you aren’t alone. We all have our troubles. I could also easily as a man say the same and screw up the lives of truly deserving women because a large portion of women treat men like crap. However, I won’t do that. It’s truly a hard life for a traditional person in today’s world, I think that applies to both men and women. So yes… get angry at those men but Deti’s and Dalrock’s advise still holds true. You have to realise that you’re playing by a set of rules of a traditional way of life in a world that has changed fundamentally. By normal logic that’s going to be hard, nothing you can do about that I’m afraid.
Get angry at those men, cry your eyes out and go treat yourself and your brother to a dinner somewhere. Then get up and try again; don’t lose faith, that’s the worst thing you can do. Get those feminists and those men back by actually finding a man and living a contented life. That’s the best sort of revenge. Just be reasonable in your expectations. It’s going to be hard, no one said it was easy.
I still can’t fathom why you would think things would just suddenly change the second you apply this blog’s advise. It’s a WIP, as all life is. You’re not too old to fix things, you just have to really work to get it right.
And truth brings wisdom, which brings with it knowledge. Living with knowledge of what one can do and what one can’t, can lead one to contentment; if one accepts their limitations and learns to live a good life nonetheless. The Bible states that one should strive to live a contented life, not to seek happiness as a constant. Happiness comes in doses, that’s what makes it special. It, however, is also fleeting, which is why one should never base their life on it. Happiness goes but being content can last a lifetime.
I don’t think most men here would rejoice at your troubles, schadenfreude is truly kept for those that demanded the ‘feminist’ lifestyle and got burned.
Feminist Hater: Thanks for the reassurance.
David C: I know it wasn’t your intention, but your post is the type that makes me wish I was dead. (28 in a few days)
28 is not too old.
Tracey, have you considered becoming a dentist’s wife? Set up a dental practice together.
the age is not the point.
i should sacrifice my education and career for a man that i haven’t met yet (may never meet)? most of the men i’ve met can’t even commit to dinner, how sensible is it to forgo everything I’ve worked for when i have no guarantee that the men i meet will be any better than those guys? btw, the bulk of my bad experiences with guys was in undergrad.
it must be grand being a man. not having to choose between your education/career and family. having kids whenever the heck you want. criticizing women for their age, appearance, life choices, even if you look terrible and don’t make much. visually lusting after women your daughter or granddaughter’s age is socially acceptable. this is exactly why i loathe being female. sure there are downfalls to being male, but most of them are not biologically driven, so you have some control over them.
Tracey, what I am suggesting is that you complete your studies but make it clear that you will be happy to settle down, say with another dentist, and be his wife and help him run a practice together. That kind of thing. I have seen women do this.
You are welcome to ignore any advice here. If you are not interested, another young female reader may be.
Oh, I’m sorry David C – I misunderstood you. I’m on the offensive again. I guess that happens with this red pill stuff. I know a lot of what you’ve said is the truth, it’s just very hard to deal with.
Tracey, I don’t know what Dalrock would think about his comments section being used for matchmaking, but it’s worth a shot… What state do you live in? If you’d rather say in private – koevoet at yahoo dot com. We are only a couple months apart in age and in similar life situations so what the hell?
Tracey: People are jerks. Men and women both. The women get the airtime here because about every other venue rags on men, rightfully and unjustly both. All you can do is look at it positively (one man down you know you don’t want, and look what he’s missing out on too, he is missing out on something good RIGHT?) and move on, just like any of us would have to in encountering a woman like that. After all, if you’re wanting something valuable in life, do you really expect it to be that easy?
EDIT – koevoet84
it must be grand being a man. not having to choose between your education/career and family. having kids whenever the heck you want
No, men do NOT HAVE a choice. Please do not confuse “not having to choose” with “not having a choice” — they are quite different things.
A man MUST knock himself out, career wise, or no woman will talk to him, let alone marry and have his children. A woman has a choice of fulltime career, parttime work, charity work, or just plain sitting around looking pretty — it does NOT affect men’s attraction for her at all. But she herself will never, never, never date a careerless guy — unless he’s a rare uber-Alpha, so hot that a woman is willing to pay his bills.
I’m sick of hearing about how terrible women are. Men are just as bad.
True but bad men are condemned from every pulpit, every magazine, every psychologists’ office in the land. Bad women — who often do such devastating damage to GOOD men — are very seldom called to account for anything. Indeed men get blamed for women’s sins, eg:
If he cheats — he’s a cad, a jerk
If she cheats – her husband must have neglected her and driven her to it.
If he files for divorce — he’s abandoning his family (to be fair, this is SOMETIMES true).
If she files — he must have abused her.
If they had drunk sex together by mutual sloshed consent:
He’s a rapist.
She’s a victim.
If he’s still single past age 30… what’s his problem?
If she’s still single past 30… what’s the problem with those men?
You get the picture.. You sound like a good woman but surely you must know that the bad ones actually exist? They do a lot of damage to men, and SOCIETY WON’T ADMIT IT. And somehow it’s “never their fault”.
On Van Rooinek’s point, let me say this. I was born in Australia in 1955. At no time was it ever suggested to me that I could avoid finding a real, full-time job to support a family, should I desire one. That was a given.
I won’t deny I am glad I was born a man. But it is not all “beer and skittles”.
Being a man means that you can only play the great game of life once you have paid your dues and established a career. A woman just needs a pretty smile.
TRacey:
Now you’re getting my hackles up. Frankly, you’re talking like a spoiled seventh grader.
Men DO NOT have a choice about whether to work. I had nothing going for me other than drive, determination and a little intelligence. The ONLY way I was EVER going to get a wife was to raise my status through work. This is the way men raise their status and draw the attention of women.
Women, on the other hand, have many choices, mostly through the actions of men. You do not have to go to dental school. You are CHOOSING to go to dental school. I had NO CHOICES once I started grad school. I HAD to finish so I could get out, start working and pay for school and begin supporting myself.
Being a man is not a picnic. You should be grateful for your choices. You are, after all, the one who actually HAS those choices. We men don’t, if we want to avoid living in our parents’ basements and having a sex life limited to our dominant hands.
Tracey:
Flip the script for a minute.
“i should sacrifice my education and career for a man that i haven’t met yet (may never meet)? most of the men i’ve met can’t even commit to dinner, how sensible is it to forgo everything I’ve worked for when i have no guarantee that the men i meet will be any better than those guys?”
Try this on for size:
“I should fork over and sacrifice $50, $60, $100 for dinner for a woman I don’t even know? Most of the women I’ve met won’t even talk to me and laugh in my face. How sensible is it to forgo my time, money and resources when I have no guarantee that the woman who demands that from me will be any better than any other woman, and I have no guarantee on ANY return on my investment?”
How’s THAT sound?
And you should take up koevoet on his overture. Takes big brass ones to approach like that. Give him a go, Tracey.
ballista: thanks for the encouragement
van rooinek: really? people don’t look at unmarried women past 30 and judge them? so i can ignore some of those nasty comments made on here about spinsters and cats? glad to hear it….
deti: i’ve always been sensitive to the expense of dates – you are preaching to the choir.
TFH: wow. 😦 if our paths were to cross, i’d treat you to dinner. i’d also give you a hug. 🙂
Maybe koevoet can live off your dental salary?
Well he take that CHOICE?
Hmmmm.
will…..sheesh, will, not well
van rooinek: really? people don’t look at unmarried women past 30 and judge them? so i can ignore some of those nasty comments made on here about spinsters and cats? glad to hear it….
That’s fringe manosphere stuff. Mainstream society, and mainstream church, almost invariably assigns blame for a woman’s extended singlenes, to just about anyone EXCEPT her.
And….. Tracey shows her true stripes. Color me shocked.
Whenever “men do it too” becomes part of the dialog, that means we are shooting for BALANCE, which is code for a broken teeter totter
Tracey,
Ok, we get that the guy was a jerk to you. That’s unfortunate. Not excusing his behaviour, but try this: Guys act like that a reason. Too many girls respond to it. This creates a problem for the few remaining NAWALT girls.
Have you considered applying opportunity cost, sunk cost and marginal utility of investment theory to dating? Probably not.
Most half pretty girls find dating easy. Have a pulse, show up.
Most guys find dating difficult. Most women only see about 20% of the men as dating prospects. This is the apex fallacy, and it creates a problem for the average guy.
Guy reasons it out. Cash and time on an entire evening with girl A is a high risk. The evening may crash and burn. It means less cash and time for guaranteed fun stuff. With less risk of rejection, which happens to guys constantly. We get that.
Being a jerk is a cheap and effective circumvention of the risk element in modern dating. Women react to it. It gets results. And you got burned. Now what?
Suggestion. Lower the opportunity cost of involvement. Instead of dinner, try coffee and cake. Less commitment, less cost, fewer potential sticky issues with going dutch and so forth. if it goes well, escalate to another agreed activity. A walk in the park. Kite flying. Make it cheap, simple, and low in complications. If after the first meeting either of you find it doesn’t seem to gel, there is an easy and facesaving out.
For a guy, dating is like work. It takes lots of input, there are many skills to learn, and no guarantee of returns on investment. I’m not talking sex; a women simply being kind can be revelation to most guys.
Guys don’t care about how fulfilling your career is. Guys have to work and bust a gut for uncertain career returns. And get very little recognition for how hard it can be, and how unforgiving church people can be to those with everyday jobs. Some of us tried damn hard, have post grad degrees and years of experience but have careers that never quite took flight. And women are very status conscious, much more so than most men, IMHO.
You don’t sound like that sort of woman. If anything, you sound hurt, broken and confused. I wish you well. Dating 2.0 is a bitch.
Tracey: it frustrates me to hear men complain about slutty or loose women and act innocent as if they had absolutely no hand in creating this culture
The men who complain about slutty women, are indeed PRECISELY those men who had “absolutely no hand” in creating the culture. Men who are still virgins, or were virgins til marriage — and were severely punished for this in the “Christian” dating market — complain the loudest. We “act innocent” because we ARE innocent.
The men who are guilty of creating the forniculture, are ENJOYING it, not complaining about it.
We’re talking two totally differnet sets of men here.
I’ve given this off topic discussion with Tracey wide berth, and even participated in it. Hopefully it has provided value to her and others, but at this point I’m going to shut it down.
berth
[D: Thanks. Fixed.]
If I might get one more thing in – Tracey is a very pleasant to write with when she is not getting barraged from all sides. A little bit of caring can get you a lot further than hostility.
Uh oh….
The thread that will not die is finally and mercifully euthanized.
Nooooo! The thread must live on. Dalrock, live and let die.
Koevoet, did she actually respond to your invitation?
She did. I think what she has to say deserves a little more credit. A couple thousand miles is a bit far for a date, but if I invited her to dinner, I’d sure as hell show up!
Thank you, Dalrock. 🙂 And thank you to everyone who gave me advice (esp Deti). Best wishes and God bless. 🙂
Just 2 questions, Tracey (in my opinion, every good movie keeps open the possibility of a sequel):
– would you consider a man who went out with as many women, as you have men, without committing to any one of them seriously – a player? (YOU did not come to the conclusion that “All men are jerks” unless you tried multiple times to get with them; I am of the view that “MOST women are jerks” since as a normal man I have obviously less relationship experience than ANY girl since it is comparatively easier for a woman to drop skirt and get one)
– why is it a tragedy when a woman can’t find a boyfriend, but it’s not a tragedy when a man can’t find a girlfriend?
Looking forward to your answers, with thanks in advance.
P.S. to all the guys out there, realise that doing a woman favours and expecting it to turn into something else, makes you the perfect patsy for the woman who wants something done, doesn’t want to pay you for it, and gets the chance to destroy your reputation so that she manages to keep you isolated to bully more favours out of you with the idea “if you co-operate, I can make this all go away”(she won’t, of course – you will be exploited continuously)
P.P.S. @Tracey: Did it make you angry that a “geek” stood you up … or that someone better looking than you chose to spend time with him?
What I am saying is, is the root of your complaint anger that “I can’t believe such a lowly guy stood me up” or “I can’t believe such a loser found someone better looking than me to be with for a date”?
@koevoet
Blind dates don’t work. I’ve had two: the first lasted fifteen minutes and the second somewhat less. Two thousand miles is a long way.
Opus, I only had one sort-of blind date. The girl seemed great, but the foolishness of the situation embarrassed us both too much. It was a strange experience.
Opus, I was being jocular about the distance, though serious in my thoughts about Tracey. I have been on one blind date, a bit over a week ago, in fact. It didn’t go well, though I think I’d try it again. There were plenty of problems with her above and beyond the setting of the date…though I really did enjoy the play we saw and I wouldn’t have seen it otherwise, so I think it was a success…just not the date part!
I think the overriding problem with blind dates is that they are usually set up by a third party. I have no reason at all to believe this girl was nothing but friendly to the mutual friend who set us up. The co-worker vs love interest relationships are totally different beasts. I had reservations going in because I tend to figure that if a woman isn’t married by 30 there is a reason for it. She was reasonably attractive which solidified my expectations, so I just did my best to enjoy the setting. But all the same, I highly doubt that she was stuck up t**t at work without anything resembling personality so I cannot blame my friend.
after reading all of these comments, it is very sad that we have so many women today that are the ones that are very nasty. i agree with many of the other men that say, women are so messed up. and they certainly are.
Married 45 years and my wife would be glad to boot me out the door. I think she can’t wait for me to die. Then shes got eveything and do what ever she wants.
we just seem to be living in different times today, that the women have certainly changed for the worse. they are much more nastier and have become so very hard to communicate with. at least years ago, many of them were a lot more educated than now. they can’t seem to just be committed to only one man, like they once use to. very sad that we have so many dysfunctional women today, what losers.
Wow!!!! Enjoyed this thread, particulary because this is a website that is designed to elicit discussions from the male perspective…very enlightening!!! I am a single 58 year old financially independent female empty nester(financial independence not the result of a divorce settlement).and my only child is a college graduate. I am now an empty nester.I have registered on a dating website for folks over 50. I get responses from two categories of men ( although I am educated, classy and attractive). Either I get responses from older men over 60 (who most likely have health problems, divorced a wife my age in their 40s to date a younger woman until his financial resources were depleted and he is now willing to date someone my age because he is sick, scared and needs someone to serve as a nurse)…or responses from younger men who are trolling senior dating websites looking for an older woman to be a sugar mamma. I reject both categories…..not willing to be a nurse to an old man or pay for a young man’s attention. Guess I am out of luck….could be worse or better…my 77 year old financially independent mom met a retiree her age who has much in common with her financially, etc…they go on cruises, etc. I guess she is just lucky.
to spaaz5272, you have to understand that there are many of us GOOD MEN that are out there looking to find the right woman again. especially a man like me that had been married at one time, and my wife was the one that CHEATED on me. i was a very caring and loving husband, and i was very COMMITTED to her as well. it has become very hard for us STRAIGHT MEN NOWADAYS, to meet the right woman again, after a divorce. i am one of many men that certainly hates going out as it is, because with so many women playing very hard to get, just makes it a lot worse. many women years ago were certainly VERY COMMITTED to their men, and marriages back then certainly lasted a very long time. it is the women that are the cause of many DIVORCES today, since they just can’t seem to stay with just ONLY ONE MAN ANYMORE. when i was married, i thought that i was going to spend the rest of my life with her, and have a family as well. now that i am in my late fifties, it is much harder for me trying to meet the right one for me again. i was without a doubt, a one woman man when i was married at the time. i feel as if GOD is punishing me, and does not want me to meet a good woman again. the women and men that were VERY LUCKY to connect with one another and have a family, should certainly go to CHURCH to pray and thank GOD for having each other. it is the men like us that would have wanted the same thing, and are hurting now. it is no fun being alone these days, especially around the HOLIDAYS. and now we seem to have so many LESBIANS out there today, adding to the problem. many women these days are into other women now, so it is very difficult for us men that are looking again.
Yes of course god is punishing you and yes all the gay people in the world are preventing heteral sexual relationships……. do you know how many people are on this planet? Please grow up!
I am a single mum of three, the eldest flew the nest yesterday as he is doing very well proffesionally.
Looking back in my life so far I have found the relationships have developed around a sense of entitlement that men seem to have that women need them and should be grateful.
Some of my female friends have totally given up on dating or ever wanting a man in their life again……and this is because they are happier alone with more freedom to be who they are…..and no not sexual freedom because fortunately for alot of women we do not need to prove ourselves sexually or have the same drive as some men. I am so happy I was not born a hundred years ago when women had no choice and very little freedom so had to put up with domineering selfish men. The truth is out that women are more caring loving & aulteristic by nature and we don’t need selfish men in our lives
TO WENDY HANDY, first of all there is nothing WRONG with me. don’t try putting us men down, when there are a lot of us innocent men out there that are looking to meet a good woman and have a relationship. i am one of so many men that is very serious, since i been hurt by many women. half of the women out there today are BRAIN DEAD to begin with, with their SHIT DON’T STINK OF AN ATTITUDE. many of them need to read a book on HOW TO TALK TO MEN BETTER. i have met women with so many problems, and they seem to take it out on us men. i just want to meet a nice woman for me, that is if they exist anymore. like i said, i have been hurt by women so many times to make me bitter. so many women where i live are just so DAMN NASTY, and i guess many of them have been so VERY BADLY ABUSED by men at one time. and now many of them seem to hate us. for your information, when i was married i was a VERY GOOD HUSBAND. i never mistreated her, and i did love her very much at the time. many women are certainly not looking for men anymore, like they once use to. i can’t BLAME MYSELF, since i did not do anything wrong. i just seem to come across all these LOW LIFE LOSER WOMEN out there now. and like i have mentioned before, there are so much more women nowadays that are into other women making it worse. yes i do BLAME them as well, since i have had a incident where this woman that i wanted to meet was with her girlfriend and she told me that we are a couple, and i said sorry. GOD FORBID, if i can only meet a good woman.
all i have to say is that many women today, are so very uneducated. at least years ago, they were certainly a lot more educated.
The replies to my honest personal observations are sad. Women the world over are classed as second class and each week in Britain 3 females are killed by their partners due to domestic violence. A lot of female friends & work colleages do not date or have partners as their trust in men has been shattered.Yes not all men are the same………………
“The truth is out that women are more caring loving & aulteristic by nature,” Wendy sneered at her pre-unselected interlocutor. How dare that dog question the hamsteriffic personal experience of a Holy Single Mum? Didn’t he know his place?
The truth is out that women are more caring loving & aulteristic by nature
Bollocks!.
@Wendy “single mum of three”
Would you please share a little on “mum” of three came around? Marriage , divorce, boyfriend, all the above ?
Shalom
Wendy, how many unborn children die in Britain every week because of abortion violence by “altruistic” women? A thousand?
Some of my working assumptions, which have proved very useful to me:
1) When women are out of the reproductive years, they become, statistically speaking, quickly much less desirable. (In that vein, Grace Slick said: “no one wants to f– anything over 50.”) In Along these lines, look how hard it is for post-menopausal women to get roles in Hollywood. Except for rare exceptions such as Meryl Streep, it is very very hard. There is even a term for it: “aging out of Hollywood.” it’s all about reproductive capacity and the sexual attractiveness that goes along with that.
2) Unlike the older ladies, men over 55 can still get young women ESPECIALLY if they have, a) money; b) high social position. (And, in Hollywood, the older guys can still get plum roles far more easily than women, even when they are quite aged.)
3) A female/male May-December relationship where the man is about 60 years old or so with a fat bank account and great social status, and the woman is about 35 or so and is physically attractive, is in many ways ideal. Why? a) The man has money and social status, and younger woman benefits from this; b) The couple can still have kids; and, if the man is 60 years old or so, he can be around to watch them grow up; plus, he’ll have the bucks in the bank to take care of the kids and let mom stay home if she wants to; c) Just about the time the woman finishes menopause, the man will die, and won’t have to sleep with a woman who’s no longer a hottie; d) Just about the time the man dies, the kids will leave the nest, the woman will have a a nice inheritance and her freedom, and all of the “inherited” social position and status of the man; e) If they want to, they can both live with the pleasant delusion that it was about love, and not biology, sex, money and status, because they won’t be around to watch the whole structure crumble.
Eveybody wins. (Example: Clint Eastwood and Dina Ruiz.)
It’s straight biology. Young fertile women attract impregnators,and seek a powerful wealthy nest-builder. Men are attracted to fertility and attractiveness. Very difficult to buck biology. “It’s the law!” :0)
Some try to deny this by saying, no, it’s real love — but turn it around: How often do you see a rich 60-year-old woman dating and falling in love long-term with an attractive 35-year-old man? You don’t. Why? Because of biology.
Romance is about sex and reproduction and protecting offspring. Ultimately, it’s not much at all about true love, regardless of how much it may feel that way. Mother Nature has stacked the deck with all sorts of feel-good brain chemicals that ensure the production of offspring, and the protection of offspring, This masquerades as true love. Mother Nature doesn’t give hoot what you think. Mother Nature just want to see the species continued.
All of that said, if a couple of about the same age raises a family together, then true love can gradually grow over time. However, almost all of the time, if you take away the money, pre-menopausal sex, social status and the child-rearing, the relationship will lose its “fizz” and the couple will split. It is what it is. It’s about perpetuating the species. Mother Nature calls the shots.
Also, of course it’s possible for a post-55 woman to find enduring romance, or at least, tender companionship — I’ve seen it happen in my family. But, just sayin’, it’s damn, damn difficult, because you’re up against some very powerful biological forces.
My two cents.
it does seem that way, i am a 55 year old straight man that is trying to find love again. i hate going out because many women today are playing very hard to get. i am tired of the drama, and these women are so very stupid now. most of the women are very degrading today, and the way they act and dress tells the story. so where can a good man go to meet a real good woman now? there are not many good places to go to other than the bars. where i live, women are not friendly at all to say hello too.
there are many of us serious down to earth men that don’t play the games that many women now are playing, and we are hoping to find that special love for us. i am 58 by the way, and i hate so much going out as it is because, it is even hard trying to start a normal conversation with a woman that i am very attracted to. i never realized how very nasty that women can be these days, adding to the problem. my aunt and uncle are starting their 65th year together, that shows you how different women were back then, and they were very committed as well. many women now are not looking for men like they once use to, and us men will certainly have it very difficult now. you can’t blame us straight guys for trying, can you?. especially for what we want is normal today.
I think it works out well that woman over 55 aren’t interested in men since men would not be interested in them. I’m almost 55,married 33 years. I enjoy being with my grandchildren and children. My husband and I get along well. The days of sexy are gone of course. He sees me differently , poor guy. His standards are low. If something happens to him , nobody else would be interested. That’s ok, I had my day. I like yard work now.
i am a straight man that was married at one time, and i was a very good husband to her. i loved her very much thinking that i was going to spend the rest of my life with her, but she cheated on me. if this did not happen to me, i certainly would have had a family today. now that i am almost sixty years old, it is very hard at my age trying to meet a good one for me this time around. now with so many women that have high paying jobs, it makes it a lot harder now especially that there are so many women with an attitude problem nowadays. i can’t believe that there are so many very nasty women out there now, which is certainly the problem. i certainly can’t blame myself, since i did not do anything wrong to scare them away. i do not expect to meet a young woman, if that is what you are thinking. i want to meet a woman around my age, that would be more like it. women have changed today, unlike years ago when they were a lot easier to meet. men and women were very committed back then, and many marriages did last a very long time like our parents and grandparents did.
i think it is just difficult to meet people of the opposite sex. My husband cheated on me, one boyfriend wanted more than one person to date, one man was verbally abusive and a drinker. I now have a long distance relationship with someone i knew from high school…I am 55..and find it hard to trust. I think anyone cheated on has the fear and the trust issue. I would like to know what absolutely true means by nasty women…just face it..you just have not met the right woman but women face the same problems as men when trying to find someone.
Old Broad says:
October 15, 2012 at 9:34 pm
You make me smile, can you bake me some cookies?
Rob, why do you see lesbians as a problem? When it comes to older women, they still outnumber men in their age group or older. Perhaps your complaint is because most men want a larger dating pool to choose from so they can throw back the “fish” they deem undesirable which is a bit selfish on their part. Women choosing to be lesbian is an insult to you personally since they have no interest in you or another man sexually? Rob, if you have money and are a decent enough chap, you will find plenty of women interested. As for God punishing you, you may want to look at your own attitude and the language you use here. Is this how you speak in church?
TO WREN, what i mean by nasty women is that so many women these days just can’t seem to be committed to just one man anymore. why is that? i am a good down to earth, very caring and loving straight man that is hoping to find love again. i seem to meet the women that have their attitude problem, and have become so very difficult to talk too. i can’t blame myself, since i did not do anything wrong on my part. i have a right to sound so bitter, since i been hurt by so many women in my life. i don’t mean to sound so angry, but i am tired of going out all the time and never seem to find the right woman for me. i guess you can say that GOD forgot about us good people, and can’t seem to make the good men and good women connect with each other. very sad, but true.
TO MARILYN, you have to understand how i feel since i do seem to meet the wrong women in my life. i never seem to meet the right one for me. and yes, LESBIANS are a problem since there are many of them everywhere nowadays that are making it much harder for us serious STRAIGHT MEN that looking to find love again.
damn, dysfunctional women seem to be everywhere nowadays.
The world and society has flip flopped! I Remember a time when women lusted for the committed relationship and blamed men for having a fear of commitment. It seems that feminism or whatever you want to call the movement that has literally turned society upside down has created what seems to me a role reversal between men and women. I am 53 years old and have had a fair share at a few attempts to formulate a relationship and it seems to me that women have been so implanted, brain washed, or lead to believe that being in a relationship is great but don’t lose your independence! With that mind set women actually feel that two individuals living Thier own lives and keeping things seperate is a relationship and for us men that are still ingrained with the mindset of being the head of household, provider, protecter, etc become the females major obstacle. If your dominant as in head of household women complain that they are losing who they are, if your submissive your weak and viewed down on by the very females that critiqued the other men. It’s no matter that relationships and back in the day theory of loving each other and working together as a couple are basically instinct!
The reason why alot or some women 55 and older do not want to have men around is…
because they are tired. Tired of picking up after them, doing all the work around the house after them…like having another kid again. Think about it.
Ohhhh, the thread that just keeps on giving!
Women are tired of taking care of men. Woe are them. But they sure aren’t tired of men looking after them, of men caring the financial obligations, of men treating them and carrying Thier load. Buy a box of tissues and pet your cats.
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There are plenty of women over 55 who want men. I’m 67 and I date (****) a lot of them.
The trick is to give them what they think they want then move on if they get too demanding. It’s not too hard because deep down they don’t want you underfoot. All they want is a little sausage and some drama to share with their henfriends.
It’s usually the gym rats and the yoga types who have the highest libidos. If you can put up with the New Age bushwa the yoginis are the best. Most flexible.
boy oh boy, women have certainly changed for the worse these days. very sad.
Mike…men have changed too..my husband left me…when I was younger than 55…to raise my sons alone…now a woman I go to church with, has a husband who left her and posted a picture of him and his girlfriend on facebook and they are not divorced. When a woman gets treated like this and raises the kids alone…why would she want a man after 55?
To Wren, i am a very serious down to earth straight man that is looking for love again. my wife cheated on me after being with her for almost fifteen years, and i was very happy at the time thinking that i was going to a family too. now alone and single again, really stinks for me. women are certainly the much stronger sex when it comes to being alone, and us men are not. and going out is like a joke for me again, since history seems to repeat itself for me again. i thought that i was done with all of this, since i am in my late fifties. i never realized that it would be so very hard meeting a good woman again for me, but the way that they have changed certainly makes it difficult now. i am a type of man that just likes to be settled down with just only one good woman to make me happy again.
I was married to an alcoholic..who left us. I had little time to date. I met several men who just wanted a sex partner …the last one had two daughters about my sons’ ages…he proved to be verbally abusive and also an alcoholic..but a mean drunk…I had to get an order of protection to get rid of him. I think both men and women have changed. I am now in a long distance relationship with an old high school friend..the only man I trust!
My 42 year old girl cousin is marrying a very rich 60 year old and they are planning on having children.
To Mike and Wren. I understand where the both of you are coming from. I am a mid 50’s yr old male educator. My wife suddenly asked for divorce just because she didn’t feel it anymore. She’s in her mid 40’s and just starting menopause so it could have something to do with it. We have a child and it depresses me when I think about how this is affecting her. I will try to move on and think positive with the notion that this could be the beginning of a new life adventure. But deep down I know I cannot trust another female for a serious commitment again.
I am sorry to hear about your pending divorce. I would say learn to enjoy time with friends or companions and learn to develop yourself. I did seek counseling. I think eventually you may meet someone but take your time…right now you will be vulnerable. ( I was..and dated people that I should have stayed away from.) I know this is little help to you right now but I do wish you strength.
I’m 64 and very happily married. I grew up in a really cold country so I have very good skin and people assume i am in my late 40s. We have 3 kids living at home who will be with us until they finish university and we are a happy family. I exercise 5 days a week to keep my weight stable, and I look ok. I color my roots where i part my hair and the area in front of my ears…that’s the only gray parts. My husband is cute , funny and a very nice man.
What amazes me is the embarrassingly stupid and petty harridans posting over and over again.
There was a time I thought the Greeks were writing myths, fabrications, stories of wild fantasy. I think the Greeks were so shocked at the insanity of human beings (old women are a constant creature feature) they needed to put a mask over them. This blog post has a murder of hags blathering some really embarrassing bullshit to convince us they’re still vibrant and fertile, when they’re really Medusae.
Fact – men can always have children
Fact – women can’t
These dried-up crones will posture their aged beauty but nature tells a different story. Nature reminds us that Michael Douglas married Catherine Zeta Jones (25 years younger) and they had children. The Medusae tell us there’s a 70 year old who is competing with CZJ. Apparently, Ashton Kutcher didn’t find any of these “knockout” septuagenarians when he walked out on the dried-up Demi.
Fact – when men get old they start to look like Sean Connery
Fact – when women get old they start to look like Sean Connery
Just like Mary Wollstonecraft these delusional feminists will claim nature itself is unfair. Just like the shriveled feminists they praised when they had eggs, they blame the world they pretended to know and understand which finally conquered them. Cruising the internet and it’s easy to find the special pleading of a feminist whose time has past and she’s now a barren, undesirable spinster with nothing better to do but to post here.
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it is very sad for us men now that are very seriously looking to have a love life again, and can’t seem to find the right woman to connect with again. and now that many women are nothing like the women that we had years ago, makes it worse. i was married myself at one time and was a very loving and caring husband, before this happened to me. i feel as if God is punishing me, and doesn’t want me to have a love life again. and i have no reason to blame myself, since there are so many very rude women that don’t want to be bothered at all when you approach them. much more women nowadays are so very nasty to talk too, and not worth meeting anyway since they do have a very serious attitude problem too. so how in the world can good men like us meet a good woman since most of them are like this now? and the men and women that are very fortunate to have one another certainly have a lot to be thankful for, don’t they?
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I left my decade younger hhusband when I turned fifty and don’t regret it at all…marriage is dull and I got tired of listening to him whine…and then he lost his hair and got a belly…oh no….I would NEVER consider dating an estrogen fat bald mand over fifty. I date all the time, am alone when I like, and travel often, all on my own dime. I am SURE the egos of the fem looking men over fifty keep them company at night as he only women looking at old dudes are women who need their rent paid…face it Grandpa…you ugly…lol
to Joseph, i feel sorry for you since i had the same thing happen to me. it is certainly the women that are the cause of most marriages breaking up nowadays. very sad.
lol my husband left in 1999, remarried for 1 1/2 yrs,divorced her, remarried,and said he is staying with her because he couldn’t afford another divorce ..and women are the cause? He left his two sons and did not pay child support…in search of his own happiness! Now wonder why women are not eager for relationships.
Funny Wren, my birth mother divorced my father, and the first stepfather, in her late thirties married an alchoholic ‘bad boy’, and in her early forties ended up with a guy that was going behind her back. The first two guys were both good husbands, the last two were what she netted in the way of bad karma I think. As a boy I overheard plenty of her harpy friends going on and on about how terrible men were, completely oblivious to the way they had all treated their exes and the terrible choices they’d made in picking their follow up husbands.
My dad? Remarried after the divorce, and has been married since.
So I’ll trade my anecdotal experience for yours.
p.s. You aren’t entitled to child support, only your kids. And he doesn’t owe anything to the kids if he doesn’t get any visitation.
I am sorry for your childhood.You and my sons had similar experiences. I am hurt by your p.s. He did not want visitation or joint custody . The only time he asked about joint custody was when he filed income tax . He left me when I had no job and two kids to raise..told me to go on food stamps. I could have sued for alimony but I didn’t. I could have gone for welfare but I did the right thing and went to work. Child Support is money for the custodial parent to use in the raising of the children ,it is not given to the children but for the children . I was the one there who held the boys when he promised to visit and never came. They would ask me why their dad did not love them. My ex was an alcoholic too..with many dui’s. He left after 12 yrs of marriage and rehabilitation. He was having an affair with a women in AA while we were married and writing women online. His second marriage lasted 1 yr. He is married and at one point said how things were not good but he could not afford another divorce. I would say the wrong people meet and there are probably equal mixes of men and women who would not marry again. I am not married but was engaged until I found out the man was a binge drinker.
He was a bad man on other accounts then, the child support in my opinion is superfluous to what his bigger failures were. If you made an effort to be a good mother to your children, then I apologise for being snappy. The wrong people do meet, and then there’s the wrong people one meets. I hope your sons grow up to be better men, and your daughters look the other way if they see father version 2.0 coming down the street. Likewise, I hope they fall desperately in love with the first true man that they come across.
Women wouldn’t even be able to talk about not needing men without the government giving them freebies and forcing companies to hire them.
^The whole “I don’t need a man” when men are paying for everything anyway is a slap in the face.
Stephen King author has a good term for women in this category who thinks they are still hot when they are not:… Dry-F**ks!
most of the women nowadays are looking for a rich man to begin with. and God forbid if they knew how to accept a man for who he really is, like the real ladies did years ago.
@Daz Monk: Yes, both Madonna and Diana, Princess of Wales had short hair. They obviously didn’t want to bother with looking good.
I was never popular with men. Abused by my brother, teased by the boys at school, still get shit on by men. Never been married, never want to be. Not in the cards.
And I’m so glad I live in a culture where I can choose to get married or not. If I lived somewhere where I HAD to be married, no doubt I’d be divorced right now, due to my inept reproductive system.
And judging by some of the a**hole comments I’ve seen, I’m better off not married. My vibrator doesn’t talk back.
@Janell
You’re vibrator also doesnt give you a child or a family, or a home to come back to …
Enjoy petting your cats, with your vibrator … lol
there are certainly much more GAY women now than ever before, especially since many women are done with men. i can certainly see why many of us straight men have trouble meeting a good woman these days, and now i know why many of us men get cursed at for trying to start a conversation with a woman that we would really like to meet.
I operate a zero-tolerance policy towards Lesbians or the Lesbian-lite (such as Janell, and her perfectly trained vibrator), which includes any woman who (as HowRight so correctly says above) curses you for even trying to start a conversation. I am sure there is a suitable corner of hell being nicely warmed up for these bitches.
Please allow a mythical woman to comment here. I say mythical because I became a Christian in my teens before I was allowed to date. I never rode the carousel or had alpha p in my mouth. Most men here will call me a liar, but that is how it happened. I was married for 26 years before my husband divorced me because I stupidly got too wrapped up in getting an advanced education and didn’t realize I had become too neglectful. Though I begged him to try and save the marriage, he had already had affairs and picked out someone younger to marry. Lesson learned, the hard way.
At age 55, I am not ready to be done with men. However, after being absent from dating for so long, I feel as if I’ve landed on an alien planet. I have no shortage of men who want to date me, even “Christian” who claim that they cannot find any decent women. But within 2 or 3 dates, they quickly become men who are demanding sex because “we are not kids anymore.” When I refuse, I never here from them again. It is very disheartening.
My take on why this happens? My last dating experience was a man who attends church every week with his daughter. After we had been dating a month, I mentioned him to a new friend I met through a divorce support group. I added that the relationship was new. When she found out I had been dating him for a month, she asked me if the sex was good. I told her we were not having sex. She was incredulous. “What in the world are you waiting for!?! You should have had sex by the 2nd or 3rd date! Get it over with! Why waste time? Find out upfront if the sex is going to be good or not! What’s wrong with you?”
How can a woman who wants to do what’s right have any home of finding a relationship when the vast majority of women out there are teaching the men to behave like that?
As a gender, we are destroying ourselves.
home = hope. Sorry, not the best typist.
Michelle:
I won’t call you a liar. I have no reason to believe your partner count is very low or to doubt your story.
No doubt the sexual marketplace landscape in which you now find yourself after a 26 year hiatus is very, very different from the one you left when you married. There are a lot of reasons for this. The primary one is that Christianity, the dominant cultural one you know back in the mid 1980s when you married, had been gone a few years, though you were still living in it.
Christianity no longer dominates American culture and its day-to-day life. Christianity’s tenets of sex only within marriage; no fornication; and divorce only in extreme circumstances; don’t carry the cultural or societal influence they used to have. The Christianity you knew gave way to the cultural tsunamis of feminism and cultural consumerism decades ago. American Christianity has largely allowed feminism and “feel-good-ism” to coopt it from top to bottom.
Other forces which shape the SMV you find yourself in now are
1. cheap, safe, effective, and widely available birth control
2. no-fault divorce and easy remarriage with no doctrinal recriminations from churches
3. Churches giving in to society’s dismissals and reprisals. Christians and their churches are routinely accused of unfairness, judgmentalism, cruelty, heartlessness, mean-spiritedness, moralism, legalism, irrational adherence to archaic “rules” and “laws”, and irrelevance. Most churches and denominations have tried to remain “relevant” by being “nicer” , softening doctrinal stances, and pandering to “seekers”
4. Churches ignoring, excusing, and winking/nodding at women’s sexual immorality while at the same time shaming and chastising men for legitimately expecting and desiring frequent sex with their wives
5. Churches demanding that men “man up and marry the sluts” while at the same time shaming and excoriating men for refusing to do whatever wives demand of them
6. Women having greater education than men and outearning men
7. Men refusing to attempt relationships with increasingly masculine, demanding, and sexually experienced women
Deti,
Thank you for that extremely painful explanation. I don’t cry often, but that post made me fight back tears.
Basically you are saying that this ugly social environment is where I have to live and that I have no choice about the bizzare gaming that makes it impossible for men to trust women. It’s not fair, but having a vagina naturally makes me guilty by association. I don’t blame the men. Having been jerked around many times, why would they think any differently? If I were them, I wouldn’t chance it either.
I am lucky enough to be in a solid biblical church that does not support sexual immorality. Of course that is a good thing, but it has the side effect of being a church body in which almost 100% of the congregation over 30 is married. The ones that are single are divorced women such as myself that have wandered into the congregation from other churches. I have attended there for 3 years. In the entire congregation, there was one divorce within that time. The husband had commited adultery once, was forgiven, and the marriage was put back together. A few years later he did it again. That time, the wife opted to forgive, but not to try again. I cannot fault her for that.
Of course it is a wonderful blessing that the couples in the congregation are solid, but at the same time, it means that I am one of the few 5th wheels. And you have given a list of logical reasons why that is not likely to change.
As I said before – as a gender, we women are destroying ourselves. I don’t agree with what is happening, but I guess that really doesn’t matter.
Actually my husband was done with me at age 23 I was 20 ! That was our wedding night and that was our first, last and only time for any kind of intimacy or love. Only having sex once in my entire life has left me totally disinterested in sex. We have been married 45+ years and we are in our mid 60’s now. We haven’t even lived in the same house all these years. He eats and sleeps in his garage that has an attached little apartment and I live in the house. We haven’t talked to each in years, avoiding each other is common practice. So the feelings are mutual He was done with me and I was done with him.
Answer to D.D. What she does not realize is that her husband found her to be very unattractive from the beginning but made the decision to ignore that fact and tried to be a caring non-shallow husband and father. But she decided to try the single life after all those years just because she felt like it. He finally realizes that he now has a chance in life to actually be in love instead of feeling sorry for you.
I am a 61 year old male. At age 53 my wife of 30 years divorced me. It came as a surprise 6 weeks after her mother had passed. She siad she had changed and that although she loved me it did not appeal to her to be married when older. She told me and the counselor that I desearved better. I could never understand how this women I loved for so long could become so cold. In retrospect I believe her early hysterectomy and anti depressants played a role. The passing of her mother was the life event she used to bolster her irrational account of things. These days I get a Xmas card signed ‘love’. I’ve yet to heal. Why are spouses so disposable? Other family members are not disowned. We had a good run and I have moved on. I am changed however as this ordeal was like a death to me. Anger has been my only solace. I have since dated or meant women with much the same story. I don’t trust them. What message do they leave for young couples? I think there is something in the water.
I believe the bottom line to all of this is that if people aren’t happy with themselves how can they possibly share such a precious gift as ones own life with someone else for a very long time, yet finding oneself and being happy is in and of itself a lifelong journey …so what to do? Hm…roll a dice?
I just turned age61 . I HAVE TRIED FOR 7 YEARs to find a lover with no success at all. women in my age range have no desire for chemistry, romance, attraction, or sex. BASIcally their love life has died. I get dates easy from attractive 50/60 year olds, but all they want is companionship and fun activites as a friend–no making out, no sex, no desire or chemistry. I am 6’0″ 169 lbs well defined muscular physique, nice looking face and hair, look 10 yrs younger. I write this with deep grief, hurt, and utter hopelessness. IT has been 7 years success. women my age have lost the hormones of their youth. and younger women would probably not be interested.
MRK, I hear ya man! Been 8 years for me. I dated several women and found the same thing from women my age. No romance, sex or attraction. Some guys get younger wives or mail order girls from over seas. I did hook up with a very sexed 53 year old a few years ago. Her deal was hidden anti depressants and alcohol. Seems the more prone they are to stimulants the more apt they are for sex which is also a stimulant. I once read that the better the sex the less tolerable the women, the less sexed women are more tolerable. So I think I’m at the cross roads of life. I guess ya gotta hang it up some time. I don’t think a women 10 years younger would be hard to find but it would just be history repeating. Funny part is that when you first meet these women they are sexy and romantic. Three months in you wonder what happened to the good times. We are in the midst of lives passages.
The problem may be that you are looking at women that only score very, very high on the attractiveness meter.
I’ve struggled with weight all my life. I’m not HUGE, but I’m certainly not a size 8.
In 26 years of marriage I never once said no to my husband – And I wasn’t just laying there like deadwood either. I very much enjoyed our time together.
I really miss that aspect of being married and would certainly love to have that again – daily if possible. However, I get passed over all the time for women that are much less interested but considered to be better looking. Well, it’s a tradeoff. You get eye candy that other men may envy, but no action.
Perhaps you might want to consider less obvious sources for a loving and enthusiastic partner.
I didn’t divorce my husband, he dumped me for a younger woman. I believe that marriage vows are meant to be forever and I would NEVER have left him. And I don’t hate men – supposedly all the things a man in this age group is seeking, but I seem to only get dates with men who are interested in “hit it, and quit it.”
Just a thought that may be worth considering. You can’t tell everything about a book from its cover. You might find hidden treasure.
I understand completely how you feel. I know that there are alot of good women out there. But most of these “good” women are just as nick picky as men but with one difference. They want money. Lots of it. Older women that have outgrown the stages of puppy love now want security plain and simple. So they try to get the only way they know how. By treating their sexual weapons like the holy grail. I am separated and have learned that the majority of women in those dating sites will never date a separated man. I can’t get divorced yet because of financial and legal loopholes I need to fix first. Meanwhile I am doomed to spend every night and weekend alone. All my so called friends have dissapeared since my wife left me and my family are living in other states. I’m still friends with the wife because I will never hate the mother of my children. Amazing how easy it is for women to drop you like trash. But I am trying to move on. Mark you have got to focus on continuing to better yourself. One tip: When you meet women leave small talk to a minimum. Us old guys tend to talk to much and we end up looking desperate. Another tip: If you feel angry, it will show. I tried to take dance lessons and showed up in a bad mood due to a bad day. When I saw my expression in the mirror I said to myself, “No wonder no one is dancing with me”.
Wow! I am so amazed and thrilled that people responded to me. THIS IS the bigest pain & grief of my entire life.
REPLY to “BEEN THERE”: I often wondered if my experence is unique to me or something common that others guys my age find in their experience. I would be more than happy to be with older women, but for seven years every older woman (55+) has been devoid of romance, sex or attraction. THEIR chemistry hormones have shut down & died. I guess the only hope is a younger woman, but that gets more difficult every year. MY last relationship I dated FOR 10 MONTHS (!) . . . and i finally told her that the price of being with her was that I had to forefeit sex from my life. IT was too much to bear. ONE would think I was asking her to do some awful chore (RATHER than enjoying the nurturing pleasure & chemistry between a man and a woman.
REPLY TO NEW2REDPILL: I admire, praise, and love that you never said no to your husband. MY ex-wife completely and permanently shut off anything related to sex after 2 years of marriage. I also considered marriage to be a life-long committment, SO I lived a sexless marriage for the next 5 years until my wife divorced me. (I have since learned that it is not uncommon for wives to
deny sex
part 2 OF REPLY FROM MRK.
the blog foced a continuation post.
CONTINUED REPLY TO NEW2REDPILL:
I was also was thrilled to hear that you enjoyed sex with your husband for 26 years! A woman who truely has lust for sex is THE MOST SEXIEST THING OF ALL IN THE WORLD TO ME! I hope that I will get to experience that sometime before I die. Regarding “hit it & quit it,” I have always intended to remain committed for life to any woman who liked sex with me. But all women have eventually dumped me. NONE of them have remained committed to me. I think you have good advice for me to look for and focus on any woman who shows an interest in me–rather focusing on women i am attracted to.
RPLY TO JOE:
DATNGi SITES have been a waste of time for me . . . better to meet women in
person.
REPLYTO ALL: the best way to reach me is my personal email markregards@yahoo.com.
MRK, I well know the pain and grief you are feeling. Sex is not love and will not repair you. AARP has a few articles that relate to gray divorce. http://www.aarp.org/relationships/love-sex/info-2004/divorce.html In this article it states that 66 percent of gray divorces are initiated by women. The age group also shows a huge increase in divorce statistics. I found solace in not taking my divorce as a personal defeat. It appears to be the norm of sorts.
I am currently in a 4 year sexless relationship. Started out sexy but I noticed she just was not into it and was just pleasuring me to be kind. I found that I still love her for her other attributes.
We all know that our creator vexed us with a misaligned sexual function. So I learned to love without sex. In so many ways I’m better off than when I was married. In many ways I equated the memory of my ex with her youthful sexuality. No older women could ever replace that memory. After beating myself up for years I just sucked it up. I decided I had to live on. After 8 years I still think of the ex daily but have become better at blocking those thoughts. I found my self pity to be dragging me down.
I dated several women the first 4 years after my divorce. Then I hooked up with a gal I knew 40 ish years ago in grade school. We shared a lot of the same origins. I had not seen her in 40 years but found her on My Space. I had been doing some soul searching and asked myself, who in this life have I ever been attracted to but never hooked up with? When we were young we were in other relationships and never had an chance to get together. So I’m blessed with finding the one that got away. I have a friend in similar circumstances and he hooked up with an old girlfriend from high school. It was a disaster. The women was a heavy alcoholic.
Take stock in the blessings of being single. Keep busy so negative thoughts have little time. Plan your retirement. Forgive yourself, your less guilty than you think. A lot of guys move to the woods,curl up and die.
Men over 60 are walking time bombs as is. All this pain ain’t healthy. I assure you that things will be ok. A new perspective is in order. The fact that you have found this blog and vented tells me you are on the proper path. If you have to think about your ex, envision an old spinster with a lot of cats and complaints. Retirement homes are like 95% female. She’s living the dream. Chu… Don’t let her be the cause of your early death. All things must pass.
HELLO………..who wants an old man to take care of???? Not I said the woman who could take care of herself just fine.
Actually Susan, I find much to desire in a mature (Not OLD) man. Younger men really do not appeal to me. And I don’t need to be taken care of as I have a good income. So at 56, I still hope to find a man who would love to explore the world and can “function” at a level that can match my own desire. If that happens, then……SWEET!
HELLO …. who wants an old woman to take care of???? Not I, said the man who could not only take care of himself just fine, but has decided to live happily with his male gay friend for the rest of his life. When post menopause women can no longer blame their periods for their bad attitudes they are just not worth trying to make happy anymore. It’s kind of like when your mom ends up in the retirement home. You still love them but you keep your distance away. (remember to change your wills guys).
Flip says:February 10, 2013 at 8:29 pm
“My 42 year old girl cousin is marrying a very rich 60 year old and they are planning on having children.”
You are presumably aware that if they don’t use donor ova (and probably a gestational surrogate as well), they’ll probably fail utterly at this, aren’t you? You would do them a kindness by telling them in a timely fashion.
I guess I can be really politically incorrect on this site,since I can be anonymous. Here goes:
1- Ladies, looks DO matter to men, even we semi-ancient 55 year olds. If you’ve gained weight over the years…time to lose it. Yes, women have tons of excuses why they are overweight. Fine, stay overweight and alone. Most men do not prefer overweight women.
2- I’d be fine with a woman my age (55) who has kept herself up and has a good mind and a reasonably pleasant personality. To be brutally frank, the looks is the problem usually. I’ve tried dating and having sex with overweight women (there it is again). It doesn’t work for me. It’s not fair to the woman to be “forcing myself”. As I said above, if you want the right to be overweight, fine. Just don’t expect me like me to desire you….
3- Men, my turn to take you to task, as a fellow male. Stop being so chauvinistic. Listen to what women want and what they enjoy. You might learn something, and become more desirable in the process. Once women grow older, usually they DO want a nice guy with a brain who is interesting and treats them well. Note I said USUALLY, always exceptions to that statement.
4- One last piece of advice to men: Yes, women don’t like fat out of shape men either, usually. They are simply more forgiving about it, but if they REALLY had their way, they would have the entire package: good looking, kind, smart, financially stable, etc etc.
5- Women, you want to be liberated ? THEN F******G stop looking to men as wallets and bank accounts ! Make your own damn money and wealth. Stop taking men to the cleaners in divorce court, even if he was a complete a******e and cheated on you, etc. GO MAKE YOUR OWN MONEY AND WEALTH. I have some assets and I’m a bit wary of new women because of the parasitic females out there.
Ok, I feel better now. Maybe one woman and one man actually will listen to me. I’m doing my best to be a nice man and be good to women. Men, you need to do the same. Women….please listen to my brutally frank advice. Best wishes to all.
Interesting thread. Don’t know if anyone will read this, but:
I’m a 58 yr old man, divorced a few years. Agree with some posters, most women over 55 are just not much interested in sex. To Michelle, probably men ask for sex quickly because they are trying to find out if the woman has any interest, after being frustrated many times. I’m sick of trying to date for months, only to find out that she has no interest. I’m tall and in decent shape, I’ve been told I have a good body, but sex life is dead… only once in 5 yrs. Trying to accept it. Here is my thinking on the subject:
At this age, hormones for both sexes are low, but especially for women. We all have failed relationships, hangups and past disappointments. Energy is lower than before. Attractiveness less, and we feel less attractive as well. So many details that affect attractiveness, many did not exist when we were younger. Many have physical issues of various kinds, or serious emotional issues. It all adds up to NO SEX, or at least VERY LITTLE sex. Those are the unfortunate facts. I’ve made lots of friends, but don’t have a girlfriend… I’m still functional and have desire, but how long will that last? Time is wasting… I still work and simply don’t have time or emotional capacity (or energy, frankly) to try to date person after person, spending all that time… only to have it go the “friends” route… no sex. Too old for younger women to be interested anymore. So, I’m screwed.
I am 57 and have been divorced for 11 years now. Married and divorced 3 times (twice to my first husband) all were big mistakes and wasted years of my life. I have not made good choices in men so at this point why finish the rest of my life with another mistake? I wish I could find a decent man to spend the rest of my life with. My sex drive is still good so that would be a bonus for both of us if I were to get married again.
On the other hand I don’t want to marry yet another man that likes my independence until he marries it and then tries to change me. I have worked all my life and have made decent financial decisions so I am not desperate to find a man to support me. I want to enjoy my freedom and final years even if it is without a partner.
The reason women divorce is because their men lose interest in them and they cheat, so women leave them. me? I’m in my 50s I’m thrilled dating someone 20 years younger, he keeps my postmenopausal body very satisfied, thank you very much!!! so the stats don’t apply to me:) lol
My man cheating on me was the best thing that ever happened to me:)
So… you’re a woman in your 50’s and you have a boy-toy in his 30’s that’s keeping you busy in the sack?
Does he work by the hour or is he on salary? Sorry, 1kingofkings, unless you’re a one-in-ten-million post-menopausal hard-body, no guy in his 30’s who has options is sexing you up unless:
1) You’re his sugar-momma.
2) He’s a total basket case himself.
3) He has a seeeeeerious fetish.
4) He’s socially inept and doesn’t know his own SMV.
5) He’s secretly recording it for “Grannies Gone Wild!”
6) He crossed a Mob boss and his options were sticking it into a blender or sticking it into you.
Normal 30-something men who do not have serious issues are not typically attracted to women twenty years older than they are.
Unless one (or more) of those six things is true, I’d lay odds that you just made it up.
OK, that made me laugh.
My one and only, permanent disclaimer: I am the dude who used to post as 8oxer. I don’t know why my username is getting binned*, but Dalrock author sez I’m good to post here.
*Actually, I do have an idea… but it doesn’t matter much anyway.
Regards,
Boxer’s anonymous sockpuppet
There are many other options. Not the least of which is her Boy Toy might also be someone else’s Boy Toy. In that sense she is just one of many, the one he doesn’t have to wear a condom with. Afterall, she is post menopause. LOL.
Moreover, he may be interested in her JUST for the sex. He doesn’t have to date her, spend money on her taking her out, spend money on her for gifts, promise any commitment, show her off to his friends, introduce her to him parents, he just…… comes over her house and shags. Some younger guys (particularly ones with lots of friends and commitments on the weekends) like that.
I am that toy boy. I knew a woman, the same age as King of Kings; she was hoping for love happiness and marriage but for me she was just a booty call. Frankly she disgusted me, but men have testosterone. I never stayed the night, not once. Eventually, one day when I wandered round – after a few months absence – she said she was ironing, and could not see me; I never called again. Dead now, I think.
Was I abusing her? Certainly not; she was the one coming on to me – I recognise come hither signs when they are flashed in neon at me.
Total outlay in terms of money $0.00: Total emotional involvement: not sufficient to register.
Lol, proof positive that women shouldn’t ever get married. What were you thinking women?! Just wow, if you were married, you wouldn’t have toyboys en sheet! What the heck, just don’t do it. Ever. No marriage! Say it with me ladies! No marriage!
Actually….I cannot comprehend what happens to women that are turned on by boy toys. I can think of nothing with less appeal. Becoming a near-pedophile in my 50’s would be a sad last chapter.
Can we please call this what it is – SIN, plain and simple. And please believe me – it is not common to ALL women.
Lololo wow. Seriously pathetic men overreaching to patronize. Well girls, hear me loud and clear: all the things that are said above are complete bald face lies – these men spout about my young man as if they know all- believe me, these old men have NO CLUE!! Lol my young man is hot as hell and adores me to pieces and can’t get enough of me!! No, of course I won’t marry my young man, he’s too young, but I have time of my life!! Girls don’t listen to the man behind the curtain- the cougar lifestyle after your man leaves you is the best thing you could ever do for yourself !! Get yourself some breast implants, get yourself a facelift, go on hormones and have the time of your life !! Forget the cheating mean old man saggyball man who left you-their T is down lower than dirt -you grab the high T young man and have a ball with a man full of energy in the sack not someone who has troubles lol – young men have so much more energy!! You’re so much fun and they idolize older women !! they’re not grumpy like old men and they actual try at the relationship- Old men are jaded, divorced, and full of exes baggage! these guys are just young fun and free !!!they’re so much fun! They love to play at water parks, amusement and all kinds of fun but never get tired and want to go home
Like a grumpy old man who complains and birches all the time! My recommendation to the older “dumped woman”, have a ball with the young man for however long it lasts, because the cougar lifestyle is the way to go!!! Oh yeah, sorry boys men have and doing it for centuries the women finally are catching on:) but the funny part you know it’s about sex because women sex drives are higher in their older eight years where men start to wane after mid twenties. I didn’t think it was the way to go, but I had all these young men chasing me, I eventually said “yes” and boy am I glad I did!! Hehe.
I knew this woman who aged forty-seven when she took up with her twenty year old lodger – her son’s best friend. Consider his position; unable to part from her without losing his lodgings, and sure to fall out with his friend if he did so. Intolerable.
@Boxer’s sockpupet
I’m not sure but I think me having unbinned and approved your comments weighs on Askimet’s calculations. Usually after that happens and I unbin them comments go through again. You should be able to go back to your original nick.
Edit: I see your next two comments with your original nick went through without problem after I unbinned the others. You should be good to post here on your original nick.
Yes! 1kingofkings. Live it up! Marriage, bah, don’t need that crap! Cougars are the in thing; and young boys love em. Coupling yourself to one man, who becomes old and useless, such a drag! Divorce that turd, he has it coming anyway, and live it up with your new boy toy(s)!
Yea, ride that wave of sexy cougarness!
Ride it! Wooohooo!
Dang! If only 1kingofkings had used the phrase “Misogynist” I would have won at
Rationalization Hamster BINGO.
Who’s laying odds that she is…
1) Lying outright about having a younger man?
2) Paying for the attention of a younger man?
3) Fooling around with some unfortunate Omega guy who is now releasing twenty years of pent-up sexual frustration?
Hey Dalrock:
I googled Aksimet yesterday and suspected a spam bot was using my nickname. I had that old account for so long that I forgot the password to the email address to start it with.
This is one of about three blogs I use it for anyway, so if it was compromised, I don’t much care (provided you don’t).
[D: It is fine with me.]
In any event, on with the interesting marriage and relationship straight talk. Does anyone else suspect 1kingofkings sounds like a dude who is here having some fun with us? Where is that fella with his magic software that can analyze wordprints and magically deduce the sex of the author?
Best, Boxer
You just don’t understand do you Lyn 87; the modern man when offered a choice between a hot nubile twenty-something and a post-menopausal, saggy, who puts out immediately in any way of your choosing and at any time will always chose the older woman. This is doubtless why so many women in their teens and twenties are asking ‘where have all the good men gone?’. King of Kings tells us the answer to that.
As they say in Switzerland (so I am told) ‘You learn your cooking on old pans’.
I’m guessing it’s 1) She’s lying outright.
I think so because she wrote, “…but I had all these young men chasing me.” Unless she’s on this list of “Hottest Women in Their 50’s” (http://www.imdb.com/list/oUG5-qYeIRU/), any young men chasing her as anything other than a quick release between higher-quality women would have extremely low SMV.
Opus,
Once again I am forced to genuflect before your perspicacity. Well done, Sir!
Lyn87,
I guess it really doesn’t matter. If it is “truth” (and that is a stretch) but if it is, then most likely (3) is the answer. I don’t think she’s paying for it. And if it is (3) then…. goof for the Omega. I’m glad that he is finally getting “gratification” so to speak. Of course its SIN but so is far too many other things.
@Boxer
Those were my own thoughts – KoK is patently ridiculous.
@ 1kingofkings
Why would any under 40-year-old man want to bag and old hag? Really?! Does he put a playboy magazine on your back while he pumps an old sabertooth like u? Man…he must take both Viagra and Cialus at the same time and visualize Miley Cyrus. I hope u at least considerate enough to allow him to watch porn while he bags u.
40isthenew20 and that means 50isthenew30. Hey, Men, guess what? You get old and fat too. We don’t like fat men. Looked in the mirror lately?
Let’s just say, I’m a double D, blonde, blue eyed woman and hot as hell. I have more people looking at me today than I did when I was young. I have young boys from prepubescence to elderly watching me on the streets these days. I come from a line of beauties, my mother still models runways and she’s almost 70. I don’t care if anyone believes me, this guy is a muscular athlete, hot in bed, and so much fun! Too bad that my husband missed out and took me for granted, but hey, I’m actually glad he wandered away because I’m having more fun than I ever had with him!!! I Have to say that this is the best sex of my life!! Sorry boys….live and learn.
@ 1kingofkings
Sorry, I misspoke.
You would need Hustler – Playboy just would not do. Lights off and lots of lube … and again, porn is a must. And for heaven’s sake, do your boyfriend a favor and make sure you have a bag over your face – it helps when he visualizes Miley Cyrus (may substitute with any hot 18-22 year old chick).
Because we-men all know that as women get older, u gals just get so g@d-damn hot.
Actually, a study I read showed a sharp decrease in sex drive during menopause and an increase in sex drive for women post menopause. My mum went through menopause at 58-62, broke up her relationship during that time and then started dating again after. She now says she’s ‘done with the domestics’. I read another article that said many divorced women now want separate living arrangements within monogamy. I don’t think sex is the issue; the domestics are.
you’re right about the living space, both sexes want that typically at this age, but totally wrong about the sex drive. if no hormone replacement therapy. drive is way down, no question about it. down for men, too, but not as much.
I haven’t bern through it so I can’t speak from experience. The study I read mentioned there was a marked difference between women who had a hysterectomy and those who hadn’t. Nearly all low libido problems were in women who had undergone that operation. The menses stop but the function of the uterus doesn’t. Current research has found that estrogen, progesterone and testosterone are still produced and the uterus releases another hormone that guards against depression; a ‘feel good’ hormone. I wish I could remember in better detail. What stood out about this study was it took into account whether or not a woman still had all her organs and it was done this century.
If you were “hot as hell” [sic], you wouldn’t be here, trolling for male attention in the most masochistic possible way. You’d have all you could handle in meatspace.
Regards, Boxer
@1kingofkings
I’m sorry to see complete strangers being rude to you online. It’s terribly easy to do without any face to face contact.
I believe you because my family typically looks younger than they are, are all small people in both height and width and another family trait seems to be ignoring ageist stereotypes and continuallty engaging in life and new experiences. This holds true for the men and the women. No-one has bought into the let-yourself-go and look like an ol granpa or granny look. An uncle, who is 78, still goes on cruises and tours. An aunt, 69, divides her time between Australia and Italy. Both of them look like they’re in their 50’s. I could go on but wont.
I find it interesting that all through this thread there are people advising women to look at men 10-30 years older; there are people saying really nasty stuff about women over 50 and in some cases, over 30, yet the simple mentioning of a partnership the other way round is cause for put down, personal attacks, name calling and calling it ‘sin’ and I think I also saw someone use the ‘pedophile’ word which is ridiculous when the youngest person in the relationship is an adult in their 30’s!
What can I say other than good luck and ignore the naysayers.
Actually, a study I read showed a sharp decrease in sex drive during menopause and an increase in sex drive for women post menopause.
Do you mind sharing which study that is?
Thanks @Bastet you’re a reasonable person and absolutely correct.
@Boxer I happen to be a serious intellectual seeking to learn as much as I can about the opposition. Eventually, I hope to gather enough information for some answers to my questions. I hate abuse wherever I see it and I call people out on it. Like your ‘manosphere’ feels abused in its own way by females, I feel the same way about males; therefore, why not talk to the source? I don’t need, nor seek male attention. Like you said, I have all I need.
I am sold! I was clearly so mistaken wasting my time hanging out at bars and clubs when really I should have been cruising the nursing homes for women not looking a day over sixty.
@ Bastet, well, these clinical things have to be taken with a grain of salt. I’m 58 and have some experience. I think there are several factors that add up to much less sex after 50 (there are exceptions, of course… hard to generalize but these are my thoughts):
1. Clinical studies say that hormone levels for men and women are OK at these ages, but there is no doubt that drive is lower for both men and women, especially after about 55. Hormone replacement therapy makes a big difference, just ask any woman that has it, and similar for men, so I believe that hormone levels are a factor.
2. People don’t have as much energy but are typically still working, so going to bed gets more attractive than trying to get laid.
3. People have been through lots of bad relationship experiences, so are more cautious. Ask anyone in their 50’s that is in the dating scene, everyone I know finds it more difficult now than at any time previous.
4. The urge to procreate is over.
5. When folks are younger, especially women, sex drive overwhelms caution when aroused, leading to sex. When older, sex drive is lower and caution is higher, plus desire for personal space/time is higher. This means less sex.
6. Let’s face it, people aren’t as sexy anymore.
Add all this up and it means much less sex, that’s all there is to it. Now, there are exceptions. For example, me and a lady friend went down to the beach one evening, laid on a blanket and started snuggling and kissing… suddenly it was as if we were transported to another time and became teenagers again. Wonderful, but we didn’t have sex, and this experience has not reoccurred, even though we are still close friends. I guarantee that, had we been 20 yrs younger, we would have been in bed in a heartbeat and would have probably had sex 20 times in a week. To me, this pretty much proves the point.
In regards to the study:
A few years back, mum had pro-lapsed uterus while at the peri-menopause stage. There were two possible operations, uterus repair or hysterectomy. The doctor was recommending hysterectomy. She asked her gynocologist about how these would affect her sex life. The gyno refused to answer by changing the subject to fertility, or more pointedly, the end of her fertility. She was upset that this professional talked about her organs like they were useless and disposable. During that time, I did a hell of a lot of research, specifically on the role of the uterus in sex drive, orgasm and functions other than carrying a baby and in hormone changes during peri-menopause and menopause. I went to the local womens health clinic, talked to a nurse there and signed up to their library and online database. I then, read and read and read. I printed out all relevant info I could find and gave it to her. Over that 6 months I learned a hell of a lot. The most staggeringly obvious piece of information was that if you rip the sex organs out there are hugely negative repercussions to sex drive, orgasm, hormones, mood, future health complications and the menopausal experience. I say, ‘staggeringly obvious’ because I really don’t understand how anyone can expect to have an unchanged sex drive and sex life without half of their sexual organs. It’s a ridiculous assumption when you think upon for a couple of seconds.
I do understand why people wpuld ask for references to this info. That’s extremely reasonable. Unfortunately, for this conversation, at the time my concern was my mum’s health and happiness. I never thought to gather the info for use in internet discussions but simply for the problem at the time.
I am happy to say, she got her uterus repaired, never needed hormone replacement therapy, only gained around 2 kg over menopause and managed to lose about half of it and hasn’t experienced any sign of osteoporosis, which is a huge problem for women who have had a hysterectomy.
@Vic
Hi, I think you’ve made some very good points, though I don’t take my research with a grain of salt (read my previous post about why I did this research).
The info didn’t say, sex drive was higher post-menopause in women with a uterus than at the sexual peak around age 30. It said it increased post menopause after having plummeted during it. I read this as; women need a break from sex during menopause as dictated by the hormones. If you’re dating women in their 50’s, it’s highly likely they’re in menopause, not post. It can go on for years.
Having said that, I absolutely agree that sex declines with age and experience brings more caution. Once burned, twice shy. Multiple times burned and even more shy (for both men and women). I simply think people need to stop looking at sex in solely reproductive terms. For men and women, both affection and sex have great health benefits and the hormones have more than one function. The simple act of touch helps the body release chemicals that improve memory, strengthen the immune system and help guard against depression. This is true for newborns all the way through life.
I believe its really important for all people to prioritise touch, whether as affection, sensuality or sex, or a combination, for the whole of life in context with personal morals, ethics and preferences. Part of being able to do this, in my opinion, is breaking the myths about older people: the ‘old geezer unable to get it up without viagra, sitting around watching sport dreaming of his youth he’ll never get back’, ‘the old hag watching soaps, no longer interested, letting herself go after her glory days are past’. The older men and women in my life really don’t fit these stereotypes and honestly, all of us are ageing and none of us want to be bored, isolated and living in the past, now or one day in the future. By researching and recognizing all the positives age brings, it gives us all a chance to have dignity, respect and a life worth living our whole lives. And it allows us to reach our highest potential. Can’t get there if we don’t know it’s possible.
I’m not in that stage of life yet but unless I’m unlucky not to live that long, I will be one day.
Opus:
You’ll have to compete, playa. I’m already on the dl at the retirement palace, scoping out all the hot-to-trot grannies!
After reading some of these comments I need to borrow some of that mind bleach that I hear folks talking about. I thought that even brain washed feminazi’s knew that grandma shouldn’t slut it up I mean demonstrated her independence as if she was a 20 year old whore I mean sexually empowered female.
What I find interesting is that this thread has continued for almost three years.
I guess I need to learn formatting in wordpress.
P.S.
@Vic
I probably should mention I’m gen x, 40 yrs old and was brought up with the maxim ‘respect your elders’. As a kid, that just sounded like another way to say ‘do what your told’. Now, I really think people need to be taught, ‘understand your elders’. To my mind it makes more sense and leads to the same place.
Boxer and Opus: Don’t you think 55/60 is a bit too young to be in a nursing home? That’s 5-15 years prior to retirement depending on what country you’re in.
JDG “…even brain washed feminazi’s knew that grandma shouldn’t slut it up… as if she was a 20 year old whore…” I don’t think a woman is automatically a granma at the age of 55, or even a parent, for that matter. Having a monogamous, sexual relationship at any age with another adult of any age isn’t “slutting it up” or “whoring”. Sex and love are not dirty, wrong, shameful etc.
I don’t know about you, but when I get to age 55 I don’t plan to be bored, isolated, incapacitated, unloved, unloveable, no longer sexual, living in a nursing home and counting the days til I die. I plan to have work, friends, family, community, hobbies, hopefully a decent savings account and a very full life. I plan to do my best to look after my health and take a balanced approach toward being responsible and having fun.
Having a monogamous, sexual relationship at any age with another adult of any age isn’t “slutting it up” or “whoring”.
If that monogamous relationship is til death do you part, then I would agree as long as it’s male with female. Otherwise… not so much.
I hope your plans work out. God has plans too. When we do things our own way we tend to get ouselves into trouble.
@JDG
I’m neither homophobic nor religious. I am spiritual. I believe each person should live according to their own morals, ethics, beliefs and conscience. I also believe it is wrong to judge others and try to impose a religious morality upon others. I’m from a country that has freedom of religion.
Do you believe murder is wrong? Do you think murderers should be punished? If so then do you not also want your morality imposed on others? Isn’t your thinking it is wrong to judge others tantamount to judging those who judge (at least in the context you seem to be using the word)?
Stop judging homophobes and religious people you hater.
@JDG
“Do you believe murder is wrong? Do you think murderers should be punished? If so then do you not also want your morality imposed on others? Isn’t your thinking it is wrong to judge others tantamount to judging those who judge (at least in the context you seem to be using the word)? Stop judging homophobes and religious people you hater.”
Lmao! Nice try at gaslighting but sorry, no sale.
Why is YOUR morality better than the next guys?
@JDG
Supporting freedom of religion means respecting everyone’s right to worship in the privacy of their own homes and places of worship within a secular society.
Non-judgement of others includes their right to live in freedom the lifestyle that they see fit while afforded full and equal rights under the law. It does not mean to support the undermining, negating or abuse of anothers rights.
Supporting freedom of religion means respecting everyone’s right to worship in the privacy of their own homes and places of worship within a secular society.
This is false.
Freedom of religion means freedom to worship and express your beliefs in public as well as on your own property.
It does not mean to support the undermining, negating or abuse of anothers rights.
You mean like the rights of Christians to speak out against sodomy, fornication, and other such nonsense?
How do YOU decide what is right and what is wrong?
“This is false. Freedom of religion means freedom to worship and express your beliefs in public as well as on your own property.”
In my country it is illegal in public unless having been granted a council permit.
“You mean like the rights of Christians to speak out against sodomy, fornication..
”
No, I mean Christians demanding everyone agree with them and do what Christians tell them to do because their right to freedom of religion and freedom of sexual orientation is not being respected and is in fact being undermined and abused.
I respect Christians rights to be Christians. I recognize no right for Christians to demand others agree with them.
In my country it is illegal in public unless having been granted a council permit.
Then your country does not have religious freedom.
I respect Christians rights to be Christians. I recognize no right for Christians to demand others agree with them.
Well then allow me to repeat myself:
I hope your plans work out. God has plans too. When we do things our own way we tend to get ourselves into trouble.
You don’t have to agree with me by the way.
Are women done with men after age 55? Shit, they’re done with men NOW.
Would the attention seeking Bastet care to inform Dalrock’s avid readers as to exactly which country she lives in so that we may know where to seek freedom of religion. Clearly it is nowhere near where I reside.
@Bastet, you claimed to be “spiritual but not religious”, which is a hallmark of stereotypical female behaviour: http://therationalmale.com/2012/05/01/chick-crack/
You also cited being blonde and blue-eyed as evidence of your supposed beauty. In addition to being horribly ethnocentric, this also means you quite likely have fair skin, which does not age well at all.
Sounds like she lives in Kaliningrad
Could be Nor’n Ireland? Parades, and so on.
Staying on topic, the answer to the title question is yes. Despite older women (older defined as postmenopausal) claiming to like sex better now, and to have stronger orgasms, older women refuse to have any sexual activity frequently, and do not even bother to masturbate any more. More to the point, despite men retaining fairly high libidos (as evidenced by masturbation frequency), older married couples have very little sex. About 35% of older married couples have literally no sex at all (table Frequency of vaginal sex) and an additional 25% also fall under the sexless category (less than ten times per year). Fully 60% are sexless, about 30% are “hardly ever” (several times per month), and only a dismal 10% are “all the time” (several times per week).
http://www.iub.edu/~kinsey/resources/FAQ.html
One of the biggest lolz is comparing older partnered men’s probably realistic “hardly ever” with older partnered women’s improbable “all the time”.
I could say lots more, being an older man with an older wife, with a lot of older friends both male and female. Suffice it to say that as tiny as women’s libidos seemed during 24 or 25 days out of the month when younger, you ain’t seen nothing until she’s older. And then you will see nothing. And btw I do fall into the “hardly ever” category.
One little thing I will mention is that single older men uniformly report being sexually interested in older women, but because the men know for a fact that older women are even less interested than younger women, that is the reason older men tend to go after younger women.
@ jf12
“because the men know for a fact that older women are even less interested than younger women, that is the reason older men tend to go after younger women.”
This is difficult for me to understand. I absolutely cannot relate to this description of over 50 women, I cannot possibly be the only one out there who would still like to have intimacy more than once a week!
I am approached daily on websites by single men in their 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. The problem is that they are not really looking for what they say – that “relationship with one woman.” What they are really doing is totally enjoying the rotten fruit of feminism – the ability to have easy sex with lots of females not burdened by morals or a conscience. Resist, and they quickly move on to an easier target.
Sure there are women who are not interested in sex. I hear them talk. But this problem is not entirely about women not wanting to have sex. I don’t want to spend this time in my life on some kind of twisted, grotesque older version of a carousel. I didn’t do it when I was younger so I’m not about to start selling myself out now at a time when I certainly know better.
Few things can be more unattractive than a woman over 50 who morphs into the public bicycle.
Re: not the only one. As indicated in the Kinsey statistics about 10% of older women are indeed approachable. These are the cheerful grannies, we all know some, who have gentlemen friends over to mow their lawn and fix their plumbing and help them check the bed springs and examine the ceiling paint so to speak. I do not know of any such approachable women who are NOT approached by many men all the time. There are not “lots of females” that are approachable.
Re: apex fallacy. For a number of reasons, the only men that women remember are the very few men who CAN get “lots of females”. The vast majority of men are conveniently ignored.
Re: jf12: Yes, I could be a “cheerful granny” and have men over to adjust the bed springs. That is not the issue. Problem is, I am a Christian and I don’t want to have random, inappropriate intimacy with “gentlemen friends.”
So many men say they are looking for an approachable woman, but if her actions indicate any sort of moral fiber is in place, they move on for easier women.
There are lots of men who will approach, but NOT lots of men who will behave with even a scant amount of respect when they do.
Re: all the good men are taken. Yes, they are. It was already very true of men in their 30s, and doubly true of men in their 60s. You have to take, therefore, and not expect to get taken. Either jump all over a fine widower as soon as he becomes available (the 2nd Saturday after the funeral …), barely beating out the several dozen other women also trying for him, or know, really truly know, you must settle for not quite as good. Respectable but dorky, for example.
Opus “Would the attention seeking Bastet care to inform Dalrock’s avid readers as to exactly which country she lives in so that we may know where to seek freedom of religion. Clearly it is nowhere near where I reside.”
I was unaware that participating in a conversation was “attention seeking”. Please further explain exactly what constitutes the difference between engaging in conversation and attention seeking.
There was no inference that it is “nowhere near where” you reside. This is the worldwide web. Every person on here could be anywhere.
Aaron “you claimed to be “spiritual but not religious” No, many people, both male and female, have deeply held beliefs without associating with any major religion. Perfectly normal!
“You also cited being blonde and blue-eyed as evidence of your supposed beauty. In addition to being horribly ethnocentric, this also means you quite likely have fair skin, which does not age well at all.”
I’m not sure who said that, but it certainly wasn’t me. I don’t feel any need to justify my right to participate in conversation by my “alleged beauty”. What I look like makes as much difference to this conversation as your looks do. Please feel free to describe yourself so I may comment upon it.
According to the Hite report (2nd edition published 2000), which studied the why’s and wherefores of female sexuality, not just the statistics; many women (not all) give up masturbation when in a relationship. Some, not all women equated masturbation with cheating. Moreso in the boomer generation than in the following. Many also cited feelings of guilt, sin and shame associated with it. This would suggest that sex drive is not reflected by participation in masturbation. Nancy Friday, sexual psychologist, two books, Women On Top and Men in Love, both of which were studies into the role of fantasy and masturbation, encountered the same.
The Hite report also looked into the causes of women no longer wanting sex with a cohabiting partner (spouse or de-facto) with the most cited reasons being:
1) No longer being attracted to the partner.
2) No longer or never experiencing orgasm with the partner and coming out of the sexual experience more sexually frustrated than they had been prior to it.
3) No longer feeling any emotional connection/non-sexual intimacy with the partner.
This would all suggest that sex is not always the problem but rather the side effect of much larger issues.
(Please note: no blame at men or at women has been stated regarding how these situations came about within the study or by me. )
This would all suggest that sex is not always the problem but rather the side effect of much larger issues.
Yes we already know. She wasn’t haaaaaaapy.
Instead of trained to be a wife
she was spoiled all her life.
She was told she could have it all
and wasted her best years having a ball.
But then she met the wall.
So she settled for what she could get.
much to her regret.
You are surrounded by a gold mine of information on why women (and men for that matter) do what they do. Haven’t you learned anything?
If I understand correctly, the Hite report doesn’t take into account the fact that women lie about sexual matters (and much more than men).
new2redpill
The reason for your comment is that approaching a woman is now a criminal act. The nice guys that “respect” women are nice guys and are not criminals. This was done on purpose in the law and culture for the gina tingle of women. Red pill will help you understand. I am in the slow process of teaching my 13 year old daughter this lesson. What she is attracted to can only come in this culture from a thug. In a sane society it is from a good man. A Christian man with game would be perfect.
Re: women’s masturbation frequency and libido. One of the main reasons that giving testosterone to women as a libido enhancer, by itself, has never caught on is its side effects. No, not hairy knuckles but hairy palms! At blood levels of 150-180 ng/dL, only double or triple their more typical 60-75 ng/dL, the women given these levels supplemental T by itself report vastly increased libido, vastly increased fantasizing and thinking about sex, and finding a lot more men sexually attractive. But all this interest is merely manifested in vastly increased masturbation frequency, literally from “hardly ever” to “all the time”.
JDG says:
January 10, 2014 at 10:21 pm
“Why is YOUR morality better than the next guys?”
Easy. Compare the West from 1900 – 1965 to Stalin’s Russia or Africa today. Good summary of the latter:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/924795/posts
Oh, and blondes (I’m one, if male) age fine if they keep excessive UV off their skin, avoid tobacco fume inhalation (kind of an IQ test in any event), and limit ethanol binging.
new2redpill says:
January 11, 2014 at 10:50 am
@ jf12
“because the men know for a fact that older women are even less interested than younger women, that is the reason older men tend to go after younger women.”
“This is difficult for me to understand. I absolutely cannot relate to this description of over 50 women, I cannot possibly be the only one out there who would still like to have intimacy more than once a week!
I am approached daily on websites by single men in their 40′s, 50′s and 60′s. The problem is that they are not really looking for what they say – that “relationship with one woman.” What they are really doing is totally enjoying the rotten fruit of feminism – the ability to have easy sex with lots of females not burdened by morals or a conscience. Resist, and they quickly move on to an easier target.
Sure there are women who are not interested in sex. I hear them talk. But this problem is not entirely about women not wanting to have sex. I don’t want to spend this time in my life on some kind of twisted, grotesque older version of a carousel. I didn’t do it when I was younger so I’m not about to start selling myself out now at a time when I certainly know better.
Few things can be more unattractive than a woman over 50 who morphs into the public bicycle.”
=======================================================================
Sigh. New2redpill, I think you entirely miss the core of the issue.
Men by their 50s commonly learn that women’s actions are ALL that matter about them. That is, your profession of wanting frequent intimacy with a man is completely irrelevant next to your rejection of men who approach you online and IRL. Their entire experience of you is rejection!
They’re alone with no sex now. As they logically see it, being with you would be the same thing as what they’re already in, except for all the financial cost and bulls**t associated in being in a relationship with a woman (not to mention putting a huge impediment in the way of finding a woman who actually wants the role of a woman in their life.) Other than for Christian fundamentalists (who’d rather die than have sex outside of state-sanctioned marriage, however temporary and ill-advised that will be), what red-pill man would want marriage now? Answer? Only the ones wanting children, and you’re too old to bear them (what I call “age-barren”).
You say that men now all seek a variety of loose women, that you don’t want to be “a woman over 50 who morphs into the public bicycle”. Most of them would be happy with one woman, if she was (in their POV) a 100% woman, not the 0-5% woman so many older women become, especially if married. That means sexually what he wants, as often as he wants, with minimized “bulls**t factor” for him to obtain it from you, and a smile on your face (and in your voice and actions) after. To put it crudely, a guy’s schlong only fits in one woman at a time.
If you’re available the vast majority of the potential time for him, he’s set that way.
Be that woman to a decent man, and watch him stay with you long-term, even forever.
If the product doesn’t sell, change either the price or the quality; it’s that simple.
“That is, your profession of wanting frequent intimacy with a man is completely irrelevant next to your rejection of men who approach you online and IRL. Their entire experience of you is rejection! As they logically see it, being with you would be the same thing as what they’re already in, except for all the financial cost and bulls**t associated in being in a relationship with a woman.”
So what you are telling me is that during kissing and hugging, they cannot tell in which women they have activated desire and which do not feel it? If that is the case, then I question just how skilled or perceptive they are when it comes to intimacy. I think most men can feel it when the woman becomes physically engaged. And if the only thing he sees in a relationship is expense and bull****, why would i want to be with him anyway? BTW, i don’t demand that he spend on me. If we go somewhere, I pay my own way because at that point we are not in a committed relationship, and once we are, we take turns with the expense.
“Most of them would be happy with one woman, if she was (in their POV) a 100% woman, not the 0-5% woman so many older women become, especially if married. That means sexually what he wants, as often as he wants, with minimized “bulls**t factor” for him to obtain it from you, and a smile on your face (and in your voice and actions) after. To put it crudely, a guy’s schlong only fits in one woman at a time. If you’re available the vast majority of the potential time for him, he’s set that way.”
Um…no. It is simply not playing out that most men want only one woman – many, if not most are talking with several women at once, so although they should be happy with just one, that really doesn’t hold true. That’s actually what they see as the fun of being in high demand and low supply. The “schlong” may only fit in one woman at a time, but there are many different times in the week and they try to fill every one with someone different.
Because I enjoyed intimacy very much, when I was married I held a perfect track record of never saying no – not because I grudgingly gave in, but because I really, truly loved being with my husband. But that feeling cannot come out of sex with a stranger on the 2nd or 3rd date – at least not for me.
I’m guessing the suggestion to get a widower or wait for a practicing Christian seem to be my best bets. Oh, I should point out that even Christians who are very pious in other ways will wait for exclusivity to be established in the relationship but will still expect sex long before any vows are exchanged if they have previously been married, no matter what their church says. The ones who actually wait for marriage are generally those who have never been married before. I just had a second date with a retired minister. Even he made it clear that he cannot see the need to withhold intimacy once a relationship is established.
My frame is becoming increasingly immovable.
1) A man in love is incapable of having another woman. Physically incapable, because of the oxytocin keening shrilly in his brain. One woman is always more than enough for him, if she will allow herself to be more than enough.
2) Any Christian, especially a minister, should never even furtively attempt much less expect (!) sex outside marriage. It is not the case that most single men in churches expect women to put out; ONLY the very few men who can get women to put out can expect it.
3) Re: BS factor. Athol Kay recently called it, with characteristic precision, “Suffering Through Vacuous Crap”. Even when in love, your man smiles at you adoringly while you babble because he likes the tone of your voice and/or the sight of your nose-tip wiggling in concert with your lips, not because he thinks you’re saying anything worth while.
1. “A man in love is incapable of having another woman..,”
Thank you. I can clearly see you are correct here.. I think the problem might be these men are staying in the shallow end, emotionally. They do not actually give a relationship time to develop, let alone for love to grow before they are climbing between the sheets. It is not love. It is sport.
2. “Any Christian should never even furtively attempt much less expect (!) sex outside marriage…”
You could not possibly be more correct. However, within the churches I have attended in the 17 years I have resided here, the men who are of a “mature” age and attending church are happily married and staying that way. It is wonderful that the sanctity of marriage is being upheld and I am glad to see it. Single men claiming Christianity are not in the pews. They are golfing or sleeping in on Sunday mornings. A lot of people are “spiritual” when it comes to their relationship with God, and that means they make their own rules according to what their conscience sees as right – and sex outside of marriage is seen as just fine according to them. In no way is this right, but it most certainly IS what it is. Not sure why the “Christian” men ignore the tenants of their faith so blatantly, but sadly they do.
3. I will take you at your word about “Vacuous Crap,” We do not all speak it (I prefer spirited discussion that actually stimulates my brain) but I’m certain your assertion is correct.
Thank you very much. I am being totally honest when I say that I appreciate the exposure to differing thought here.
I think it’s shallow to be capable of being loving toward only one woman at a time.
“Instead of trained to be a wife she was spoiled all her life.”
Trained to be a wife? Obligation is not love. Trapped by financial circumstances is not devotion. Studying for a qualification and working for a living is not ‘spoiled’, it’s what all grown ups do to earn a living (with the exception of the seriously physically disabled and/or sick and injured). Some people consider goals and financial independence to be a positive. It means that both people are there because they want to be, not because they wont survive if they don’t live off anothers earnings.
“She was told she could have it all and wasted her best years having a ball.”
A life worth living is not wasted. The “best years” of ones life are not dictated by someone else, they are the most fulfilled years of someone’s life because they are living true to themselves and making each moment count in all areas of life. A persons genitals don’t make a difference to that.
“But then she met the wall. So she settled for what she could get much to her regret.”
This is a ridiculous generalisation of 3.5 billion human beings.
“You are surrounded by a gold mine of information on why women (and men for that matter) do what they do. Haven’t you learned anything?”
What wealth of information? All you just sent me was irrational, illogical, wide sweeping generalisations that sound like they come from having been burned by one person with that pain now being projected onto half the human race.
People do get burned, and yes, it is ok to be angry and express that to let it out and thus allow healing. I very sincerely hope you find peace with whatever horrible experience has brought you to a place of dividing the world into 2 camps at war with each other and find people who are accepting and kind, who do not view gender as combat.
Marcus
“If I understand correctly, the Hite report doesn’t take into account the fact that women lie about sexual matters (and much more than men).”
So you’re dismissing the most comprehensive study ever done on female sexuality; edition 1 done in the laye 70’s in only 1 country and edition 2 done in the year 2000 more comprehensively, over 3 western countries in both North and South Hemisphere’s with just over 10 000 participants using a 50/50 ratio of open and closed questions based on the unverified assumption that ‘women lie’.
So, are we to believe that 10 000 women under confidentiality clause somehow managed to find each other on opposite sides of the world to plot a shared lie that all were in on for the purpises of skewing the results (and hoodwinking men)?
Come on!
Re: women not finding themselves sufficiently stimulating. The fact that married women masturbate less frequently than single women is merely another of many confirmations that women have much less intrinsic libido than men.
*cough*
Alexander, Michele G., and Terri D. Fisher. “Truth and consequences: Using the bogus pipeline to examine sex differences in self‐reported sexuality.” Journal of sex research 40.1 (2003): 27-35.
Tourangeau, Roger, Tom W. Smith, and Kenneth A. Rasinski. “Motivation to Report Sensitive Behaviors on Surveys: Evidence From a Bogus Pipeline Experiment.” Journal of Applied Social Psychology 27.3 (1997): 209-222.
Huberman, Jackie S., et al. “Relationship between impression management and three measures of women’s self-reported sexual arousal.” Canadian Journal of Behavioural Science/Revue canadienne des sciences du comportement 45.3 (2013): 259.
Fisher, Terri D. “Gender Roles and Pressure to be Truthful: The Bogus Pipeline Modifies Gender Differences in Sexual but Not Non-sexual Behavior.” Sex roles (2013): 1-14.
Beaussart, Melanie L., and James C. Kaufman. “Gender differences and the effects of perceived internet privacy on self-reports of sexual behavior and sociosexuality.” Computers in Human Behavior 29.6 (2013): 2524-2529.
—-
By the way, sample size has no effect on the truthfulness of the subjects.
Luke – I’m not following you. How do these comparisons (or any comparison) determine who’s morality is correct? One needs a standard that is immovable to make such a comparison. Those examples you gave are assuming some kind of moral standard. Somethings are right and others are wrong.
Why would Bastet’s morals be better than yours, or yours be better than mine. Since Bastet and I disagree on so much, who is right and who is wrong? Who decides? The only way this works is if there is a moral standard higher than ours.
This standard must be right even when we disagree with it. Anything else is chaos. The standard I believe in comes from God through His word. I can only guess where Basket gets her standard for morality. My guess is that it changes with what is the excepted norm in the academia and the media.
@new2redpill
Although a newbie myself, I know I have to caution you against facile dismissal of my amplification here of your agreement with me.
1. “I think the problem might be these men are staying in the shallow end, emotionally.” Yes, that is part of the problem, but from the bluepill end of the spectrum. The redpill version is that a man in love is automatically beta and automatically disrespected by women, especially by women who claim otherwise. Those women have to work to overcome their own natural tendencies, for example by working to by behave far more submissive to the men they do not want to naturally submit to, and far far less submissive to the men they do want to naturally submit to.
2. Re: all the good men are taken. The height of the apex fallacy is that men get women easily. Period. Remove all trace of this apex fallacy from your thinking about this issue, or else you will never say anything true about the issue. An example of a true statement is that you actually do encounter a lot of available men who are objectively good but do not float your boat, and the reason that they are available is that essentially all women have exactly the same tastes in men.
3. Two men sitting on nearby buckets fishing will have solved all the world’s problems several times over between them within a couple hours maximum, and more than half the time their discourse consisted of comfortable grunts, even assuming they caught a half dozen fish and actually spoke during their handling. In my experience spirited discussions with women tend to involve them talking about what they think about who said what to whom about so-and-so’s sister’s revelation about her best friend’s saying she thought something about etc, which I can tolerate in small doses max.
@ jf12
1. Well, I was actually at least decent at submission when I was married. If there was a difference of opinion, my husband as head of the family always had the final say. It wasn’t easy to do that when I believed him to be wrong, but still I knew it to be the right thing to do, so that is what I did.
Yes, it took work because he wasn’t especially good with his people skills (which is my strong area), It is really hard to bite your tongue when you KNOW he’s making the wrong choice, but we lasted 20+ years partly because I got to be pretty good at it. However, I DO hear you – I’ve been single for 3 years now. My biggest fear is that if I am alone for too long, I will have difficulty reaching that level of submission again should I get into a committed relationship.
2. I think my tastes are very specific and not the same as most women. I don’t care for hard body alphas. In school, I was always drawn to the geek/nerd guys. I need brain tingles first, rather than gina tingles. My problem is that unfortunately I have a pretty high IQ. I used to think that was a great thing to have, but it makes finding a mate very difficult. Getting a great deal of higher education didn’t help that situation either. The level of communication it takes to give me brain tingles is simply beyond most of the men who are single and interested in me. I’m only just cute on a good day and not beautiful – so I don’t tend to attract men of equal intelligence. That only serves to narrow the choices even more, but I can’t compromise on brain tingles or I will be bored into a stupor – and I might have difficulty with submission in that instance.
3. LOL! I know of many women like that, but the description doesn’t apply here, and that may be why I don’t have any close female friends. My spirited discussions are often about politics, moral issues, the state of the church, is the Holy Spirit active today, etc. Again, this only makes me weirder, which of course makes finding a mate that much harder. But thank you – you have given me issues to ponder.
new2redpill says:
January 13, 2014 at 10:11 am
“That is, your profession of wanting frequent intimacy with a man is completely irrelevant next to your rejection of men who approach you online and IRL. Their entire experience of you is rejection! As they logically see it, being with you would be the same thing as what they’re already in, except for all the financial cost and bulls**t associated in being in a relationship with a woman.”
“So what you are telling me is that during kissing and hugging, they cannot tell in which women they have activated desire and which do not feel it”
Sure they can tell the difference. The women in which “they have activated desire” HAVE SEX WITH THEM. Actions, actions, actions — ignore the words as meaningless babble of pointless excuses and promises that never come to be, that’s the lesson redpill men learn.
If you reject a man during the part of the relationship you’re trying to sell yourself as worthy of his commitment, you’ll sure as Hades soon enough tell him to go jump in the lake WRT his sexual needs once you’ve made the sale, so to speak. If the salesman is grumpy and unhelpful before getting the sale, then the warranty department will be even worse (and unacceptably so).
Nope, not true Luke. I do have TREMENDOUS desire but I’M A CHRISTIAN! We can’t DO sex like that! And since I’m dating men who have professed to be of the same faith, they know the deal. And that’s not a “pill” issue.
Bastet says:
January 13, 2014 at 1:52 pm
That comment you made here was really something. Women that speak like that are the norm and why men only want women for sex. I would never make any kind of commitment to a woman that spoke as you did. Purely a pump and dump if not a whole lot of effort was required. The new2redpill is getting the all women are feminized bitches treatment that’s to the norm you so vividly displayed.
New2redpill, I hear you and believe it or not sympathize now, in a way I didn’t pre redpill.
1. The very best thing you have going for you is knowing it is right to submit to your husband and having experience doing so. If you advertise on that basis you will have many offers of marriage within days at the longest.
2. All women say they are unlike all women, and all women claim to prefer nerds, and all nerds truthfully say all women are liars. The uniform nerd experience is that women despise nerds. I know now it’s hardwired in you to claim the opposite of truth on this issue, and so I’m simply asking you here to recognize that MEN, at least, know the apex fallacy for the fallacy that it is. And it is simply true that very intelligent men get less women than men of average intelligence, and less sex per woman, and strictly by the women’s choice. It doesn’t matter that that fact doesn’t feel right to you, it is the way life is for men in reality.
3. I have had some great discussions with women, I admit, including on websites for the past few years. But in my whole life the only women who were at all animated in discussion (not to say merely disputation) with me were only women with whom there was no possibility of real man-woman relationship. Not by my choice. The talkzone is a big part of the friendzone, unfortunately. That last sentence is a nicer way of what Luke was saying, about men knowing *knowing* for a certainty that the woman will tell him to jump in a lake.
So, red2newpill, no sex without marriage in your ethical world? Since marriage is not worth it to any wise man without the reasonable prospect of progeny produced in that marriage, and you cannot give a man that due to your age, do you understand what that means? You are unmarriageable to any but unwise men.
@new2redpill. The relevant summary of the redpill is that the friendzone exists, and that the typical beta male procedure, to become friends with a woman prior to becoming romantic with her, is a losing strategy. It never works for the beta male. Never. Never. Never. Never. Say it with me: never. Also, alpha males NEVER pursue this strategy at all anyway. Never. Never. Never. Never. It’s not the fault of the men that women do not respond “correctly”.
1. “If you advertise on that basis you will have many offers of marriage within days at the longest.”
Not sure how you lead with that information. Honestly, since the faith demands it, shouldn’t they already know that about me?
2. Not true about me. Example: Former Clergy came to pick me up for date number 2. My sister was visiting from out of town. She looked out of the window at him and exclaimed, “Are you kidding me?!? That man is LUCKY you are going out with him!” She had several other not-so-nice things to say, but you get the picture. Former clergy would not be considered good looking and he is certainly not alpha. .He would be considered most assuredly a geek/nerd. Do I care? No – because he gives me brain tingles AND as a deeply devout man, the discussions we have are amazing. We are becoming friends first, taking it very slow. Eventually sex will become an issue, but he will know why I will not comply. Since he was married for a very long time (30+ years) and loved being married, he wishes to marry again. Odds are that will happen if we can get over the “no sex before marriage” divide. It’s too early to tell, but we just might, My sister would probably have a stroke. And my oldest son (a successful alpha) will not approve.
3. If a man is not for me, I don’t go into the “friend” zone. It’s cruel to let the guy keep trying and hold out hope when there is none.
@ Luke – when you have been married for decades, you do not want to be single. That applies to men as well. So although you can see only one reason – reproduction – to marry, that is not the case for over 50 men who actually enjoyed having a wife. I have dated a few of those, but they did not have enough nerdy geek in them for me,
Obligation is not love.
You seem to be under the misconception that people are basically good when the opposite is in fact true. You speak of love and devotion but nothing of commitment and self sacrifice.
Are you under the impression that love is something you feel and just sort of happens? Feelings and attraction come and go, but love remains even when it hurts.
Love is NOT something that happens to you, but rather love is what you do (or refrain from doing).
She or he may not always want to ‘be there’, however that is secondary when love is in command. He or she can choose to demonstrate love by staying in difficult times. In the context of biblical marriage this is an obligation with few exceptions. Keeping your obligations often require a great deal of love.
Trained to be a wife?
If you love your son or daughter you will train them up in the way they should go. Hence the ‘not trained to be a wife’ line. To NOT do so is an act of neglect usually with disastrous consequences.
Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
A life worth living is not wasted.
A life squandered on hedonistic pleasures is clearly wasted. And the end of that road is pain and suffering. We reap what we sow. Living for the moment will only produce misery and leave you empty inside. This is one of the reasons I keep asking you where you get your morals from. You have been lied to about so many things that to you evil is good and good is evil.
This is a ridiculous generalization of 3.5 billion human beings.
I wasn’t referring to all the women on the planet. I was speaking of those women who like you have been encouraged to nurture immorality in their character rather than decency. I’m not saying this to insult you. It’s just they way it is.
All you just sent me was irrational, illogical, wide sweeping generalizations…
Perhaps I gave the wrong impression. I wasn’t referring to my self when I said “wealth of information.” Here you are on Dalrock’s site where example after example can be found of the inner workings of men and women, backed with statistics, applied logic, and comments from men of incredible insight to these matters, yet you fail to see the obvious.
New2redpill:
“when you have been married for decades, you do not want to be single. That applies to men as well. So although you can see only one reason – reproduction – to marry, that is not the case for over 50 men who actually enjoyed having a wife.”
I didn’t say that reproduction was the only reason for a man to marry. (I’m over 50 myself, currently married, with over 14 years in that state during my life, but with 2 children, 1 more probably coming this year.) I said that it was the only SUFFICIENT reason for a man to marry now in the U.S. under Version 2.0. Even undesired celibacy for decades is not IMNSHO a worse fate than the risk taken by barren marriage. Impoverishment and imprisonment when morally blameless? Sign me up. /s
Anyway, the ‘friends” stuff (trips together, working together on the yard, bringing/making each other food/gifts, cuddling on the couch watching T.D. Jakes/Creflo Dollar on the tube, “How was your day, dear?”, etc., are all obtainable outside of marriage even to fundamentalist Christians. Barren sex with a woman (especially post-45) is worth not a real risk lifelong destitution and being Tyrone the 6’4″ weightlifting lifer’s butt buddy. Anyway, as many men here can attest, sex frequency typically plunges in marriage, most usually to 10% or less of the frequency (let alone type) the husband needs. The difference for a man who won’t have sex outside of marriage between A) his income is all his with NO divorce court risk but all his climaxes are Rosy Palm and B) all those risks plus guaranteed over half his income gone to no benefit to himself and STILL 90% of his sexual satiation is while alone? The main difference is the court risk and the certain income/freedom reduction.
If a woman in America (who a man knows cannot/will not bear him children) indicates she wants that man to marry her, two responses come to mind that he might give:
“Do you think I’m stupid?”
“What did I do to you that you hate me so much?”
MarcusD
“By the way, sample size has no effect on the truthfulness of the subjects.”
There wont be a study on the face of the planet that doesn’t include individuals who lack a balanced perspective, exaggerate, minimize etc Large sample size and a broad cross-section ate used to find patterns overall. So, you’re right, sample size will not effect individual testimony; it will, however, effect the results, weeding out small discrepancies to uncover larger patterns.
Jdg “I can only guess where Basket gets her standard for morality.”
*Human Rights Charter as set out by the UN.
*Legal structure of individuals rights and responsibilities.
*Personal moral and ethics
@greyghost
“That comment you made…”
Which one?
“I would never make any kind of commitment to a woman that spoke as you did. Purely a pump and dump if not a whole lot of effort was required.”
That says a lot about your morals, or more pointedly, lack thereof, given your admitted participation in ‘pump and dump’.
Please get back to the actual topic and debate the points outlined. I’m not here to listen to emotional ranting with bad attempts at personal attacks. I prefer calm, rational, well thought out and on-topic discussion.
@New2
1. Yes, it used to be commonly assumed that Christian women would submit to their husbands “just because” we all knew they were supposed to. However it hasn’t been true of the majority of Christian women’s actual behavior for at least a century (and I’m sure 19th, and 18th, and 17th, … and 2nd, and 1st century husbands would confirm women’s difficultness in their centuries too), and submission has been completely opposite of the vast majority Christian women’s behavior since the sexual revolution. The submitted wife is the rarest unicorn of all. Ask the men; the women’s opinions about themselves are not to be believed, at all, not in the slightest. The worst offending women are those that sigh and submit when they happen to feel like it (which is rarely enough) because they justify this week’s cantankerousness by saying “I made you a sandwich {one sandwich} last week!”
2. It’s just too hard to believe that a devout ungoodlooking nerdy clergyman expects sex outside marriage, sorry. I contend your clinging to the apex fallacy is forcing you to speak mistruths, remember.
3. A man who is not given a hard time by most women is never in the friend zone because most women hope he can be a backup plan sometime. A man who is constantly given a hard time by most women will cling to the false hope that he can be a backup plan sometime to any woman who is friendly towards him. That is the friendzone, and more men put themselves in it than women put men in it, because most women never believe how hard up most men are, another aspect of the apex fallacy.
“Obligation is not love. You seem to be under the misconception that people are basically good when the opposite is in fact true.”
I believe people percieve themselves as good and deeply desire to be so. I believe the overwhelming majority of people would choose to wake up each day a better person than they were the night before. I believe most people hurt others unintentionally and are mortified by the consequences to another of their bad choices.
“You speak of love and devotion but nothing of commitment and self sacrifice. Are you under the impression that love is something you feel and just sort of happens? Feelings and attraction come and go, but love remains even when it hurts. Love is NOT something that happens to you, but rather love is what you do (or refrain from doing). She or he may not always want to ‘be there’, however that is secondary when love is in command. He or she can choose to demonstrate love by staying in difficult times.”
There is nothing within this that I disagree with.
“In the context of biblical marriage this is an obligation with few exceptions.”
I am not Christian. Christian beliefs are relevant inly to Christians.
“Keeping your obligations often require a great deal of love.”
I agree. I would add that obligations must be explicitly agreed to by all parties concerned.
“Trained to be a wife? If you love your son or daughter you will train them up in the way they should go. Hence the ‘not trained to be a wife’ line. To NOT do so is an act of neglect usually with disastrous consequences.”
Here, I strongly disagree. Train kids to have compassion, empathy, understanding, to discern want from need, to compromise, negotiate and care. Train them to understand responsibility. There is no need to go beyond the values of what makes for a decent person. These qualities work in the world and the home. They are as necessary to women as they are to men.
“Proverbs 22:6Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.”
Again, I am not Chtistian.
“A life worth living is not wasted. A life squandered on hedonistic pleasures is clearly wasted. And the end of that road is pain and suffering. We reap what we sow. Living for the moment will only produce misery and leave you empty inside.”
No-one, but you read ‘a life worth living, to automatically mean hedonism, squandering and for the moment. That certainly isn’t my definition of a life worth living. To be quite honest, 24/7 children and housework sounds so mind-numbing it literally is my version of hell. I don’t hold to either extreme.
“This is one of the reasons I keep asking you where you get your morals from.”
Well, they’re not even close to what you’re assuming. And the most operative word in that sentence is, ‘assuming”.
“You have been lied to about so many things that to you evil is good and good is evil.”
This is based on assumptions you’ve made that are very false.
“That is a ridiculous generalization of 3.5 billion human beings. I wasn’t referring to all the women on the planet. I was speaking of those women who like you have been encouraged to nurture immorality in their character rather than decency. I’m not saying this to insult you.”
You are assuming immorality on what grounds exactly? That assumption due to difference of opinion, not based on how I live, what I do, what I don’t do etc, isn’t insulting, it is presumptuous.
“All you just sent me was irrational, illogical, wide sweeping generalizations…Perhaps I gave the wrong impression. I wasn’t referring to my self when I said “wealth of information.” Here you are on Dalrock’s site where example after example can be found of the inner workings of men and women, backed with statistics, applied logic, and comments from men of incredible insight to these matters, yet you fail to see the obvious.
To be absolutely honest, I’ve seen on this blog much double standards, many men attacking women based on their femaleness rather than stocking to the subject matter, a lot of prrsumption made about women that casts such an incredibly negative light that it sounds nore like a description if acattoon demon than a human being, a complete lack of basic human connection and empathy from some men on here that they talk about women like we’re not of the sane species. I’ve also seen much proselytising and setting up of a pretense of authority that really just breaks down belittling comments. The very last thing I’ve been able to see is calm, rational, meaningful discussion with a desire for greater understanding. That is most noticeably absent from this discussion.
@ Luke
Not sure how his income will be in danger were he to marry me. One of the things that would make my children disapprove of him is that I actually make more money.
I do not believe in divorce. I would never have divorced my husband. Should I ever marry again, the same commitment to vows before God would apply.
As for sex in the marriage – As I already said, I actually never once said no to my husband. I loved being intimate with him. It has been hard to have the door close on that part of my life, which is quite honestly a big part of why I wish to marry again. As a Christian, sex is closed to me unless I marry. I know that is hard to understand or believe if you are not a Christian, but that cannot be changed or negotiated in any other way – I must marry or continue sleeping alone.
@ jf12
1. My husband did not leave because submission was a problem. He left because I no longer needed him, If I had any idea that higher education and a better job would threaten our marriage to the point that he would leave, I would have made other choices. However, he never voiced any objection to what was happening. He just quietly looked elsewhere for a woman that needed him more. When he told me he wanted a divorce, I begged him to give me another chance, to try counseling, etc, but he was done. He always said that he wouldn’t care if he had a wife that made more money, but when it actually happened, unfortunately he found that he felt differently. That was a hard and ugly lesson to learn. It cost me everything I valued to learn it.
2. When you reach the point where you are calling me a liar rather than believing the truth in what I say, then there is no point in continuing the discussion. However, I do need to say that I did oversimplify, and that is probably part of the problem. Let me clarify: I do not find former clergy to be unattractive, though my sister was quite vocal about it. I would not try to form a relationship with a man that I found to be unattractive. I think the fact that he carries a few extra pounds is what makes her so critical, and in my book that is no reason to write him off. And you are absolutely correct that I should not apply the term “devout” to him. Technically, he is not. Though he has deep faith and a commitment to live as he feels God guides him, he does not actually attend any church. That is, I’m sure, what gives him the ability to decide for himself that sex outside of marriage is fine as long as there is committed monogamy. That of course is a direct departure from the tenet of faith on this subject. That is where we are at odds and that is what might end up derailing the whole relationship – though I really hope it doesn’t go down that way.
3. I do have some idea of what you said about the friend zone. I have seen the truth in this. In the earlier period after my divorce I used to believe men who said they just wanted to be friends when the dating relationship didn’t work out. Unfortunately I only learned the hard way about what that does to men, and that is something I deeply regret.
I’m not sure where the disagreement is. Nothing you’ve said in the above quote is wrong, per se. Basically, you seem to have misunderstood or ignored the studies I cited.
Well, they’re not even close to what you’re assuming. And the most operative word in that sentence is, ‘assuming”.
I made no assumptions about your morals. Here are your own words:
Having a monogamous, sexual relationship at any age with another adult of any age isn’t “slutting it up” or “whoring”.
This was in reference to my comment about a life long commitment being a prerequisite for sex. You were stipulating that sex outside of marriage is not wrong. This is a clear indication of your morals.
I’m neither homophobic nor religious. I am spiritual. I believe each person should live according to their own morals, ethics, beliefs and conscience.
…because their right to freedom of religion and freedom of sexual orientation is not being respected…
Above you are defending sodomy and who knows what else. You may as well say that adultery and bestiality are not wrong either.
Your source for morality:
*Human Rights Charter as set out by the UN.
*Legal structure of individuals rights and responsibilities.
*Personal moral and ethics
All of the above are man made and change over time with what ever is deemed exceptable by the majority.
You speak of the right to freedom of religion (which your country does not have) and freedom of sexual orientation, yet you state the source of that right is of human origin. Those very same people can one day take away any and all of those ‘rights’.
The Human Rights Charter has changed over the last few decades. Same for the Legal Structure in all Western countries. The laws of the land in Western societies held sodomy and adultery to be illegal until recently. Much of the world still does.
Are you saying that if you went to Saudi Arabia it would be wrong to commit sodomy but in your country it is right?
Personal moral ethics? Based on what? Sex in the City? Desperate Housewives? Please.
Yes I realize you are not a Christian and do not hold to Christian values. And I am not judging you (as in condemning you) for your values or lack there of. God will do that unless you repent and turn to Him for salvation.
What I am doing is pointing out that you have no solid foundation for what you do believe.
@JDG
“Well, they’re not even close to what you’re assuming. And the most operative word in that sentence is, ‘assuming”.I made no assumptions about your morals. Here are your own words: Having a monogamous, sexual relationship at any age with another adult of any age isn’t “slutting it up” or “whoring”.This was in reference to my comment about a life long commitment being a prerequisite for sex. You were stipulating that sex outside of marriage is not wrong. This is a clear indication of your morals.”
Correct, I do not believe in any need for marriage but respect others right to marry. Marriage is a religious institution. As mentioned many times already, I do not subscribe to any major religion.
“I’m neither homophobic nor religious. I am spiritual. I believe each person should live according to their own morals, ethics, beliefs and conscience. …because their right to freedom of religion and freedom of sexual orientation is not being respected…Above you are defending sodomy and who knows what else. You may as well say that adultery and bestiality are not wrong either.”
Not all gay people practice sodomy. Not all straight people don’t. Having said that, what consenting adults do behind closed doors is none of my business. Adultery (cheating) is wrong because the spouse/partner did not give consent. Bestiality is wrong because it is animal abuse and again, an animal cannot give consent. I am defending love, consent and commitment between adults.
“Your source for morality:*Human Rights Charter as set out by the UN.*Legal structure of individuals rights and responsibilities.*Personal moral and ethics. All of the above are man made and change over time with what ever is deemed exceptable by the majority.”
The Odyssey and The Iliad pre-date the bible. If the bible was the word if god, and not man, why then does it not even pre-date literature, let alone, written and recorded history? Why were councils of doctrine held for a century to decide what editing needed to take place? Why was the bible and the maleus maleficarum the only two books allowed to be in print with the advent of the printing press? If this truly was the word of god, surely it wouldn’t have required a century of kings, nobility and clergy editing it. The bible is no less man-made and no less changeable than any other document of opinion.
I feel it necessary to state here; I respect your right to believe this is the Divine Word of God. I would prefer that we cease to speak theology with one another, as, ‘never the twain shall meet’ on this subject. I would prefer we not insult one anothers religious/spiritual beliefs. I will address the points you’ve made from my honest POV. I do not wish to change your beliefs in any way, insult you or disrespect your right to beliefs. I speak only my own beliefs as relevant to me.
“You speak of the right to freedom of religion (which your country does not have)”
My country does have religious freedom.
Permits are needed to hold any event, religious or otherwise on council grounds in public space. Fliers may be distributed in letter boxes unless there is a ‘no junk mail’ sign in which only mail specifically addressed to the occupant, by name, may be placed. Fliers may also be handed out on the street inviting people to an event, business or congregation. However, it is not legal to; “block pedestrian passage”. A person may say, ‘excuse me please’ but they cannot forcibly stop, stand in the way or in other ways obstruct the path. This is true for born agains as much as businesses and protesters.
“and freedom of sexual orientation, yet you state the source of that right is of human origin. Those very same people can one day take away any and all of those ‘rights’. The Human Rights Charter has changed over the last few decades. Same for the Legal Structure in all Western countries.”
That is why we vote, debate, discuss, hold opinion polls, sign petitions and peacefully protest. Personally, I am in agreement with legal structural changes when they have been well thought through, benefit the majority, have contingency plans for potential problems and have had adequate time in the public forum with the people’s voices being recognized. I am well aware that politics rarely follows high morals or acts as “servants of the public” (in my countries constitution, often worded differently but of the same sentiment in other western countries). I’m under no illusion that political decisions ate always made with the publics best interests at heart. It is a flawed system based upon good ideals.
“The laws of the land in Western societies held sodomy and adultery to be illegal until recently. Much of the world still does. Are you saying that if you went to Saudi Arabia it would be wrong to commit sodomy but in your country it is right?”
No. Here I would refer to anti-discrimination policies as outlined by the UN. Unjust laws can and do exist (whether this law or another). I would advocate never breaking the law of the land, except in extreme cases we in the West are not subject to. If in disagreement, then look to legal avenues to change the law.
“Personal moral ethics? Based on what? Sex in the City? Desperate Housewives? Please.”
I don’t watch tv. Haven’t done since leaving home. I find it boring. If I wish to watch something then I buy the dvd. I find my time is far better utilized without cable and free-to-air. To specifically answer your question, it based upon metaphysics; the works of Alice A Bailey and other well known authors of the Golden Dawn; The Seven Ray Foundation; the Spiritualist Church (yes, I am aware this is a branch of Christianity); Bahai; the esoteric Kabbalah (not the exoteric); the Eastern philosophies of Dharma, Kharma and Bagua; astrology, numerology, and gematria. I am not spiritually lazy, turning to the idiot box as a source of knowledge. As mentioned earlier, I cannot see us agreeing on matters of theosophy.
“Yes I realize you are not a Christian and do not hold to Christian values. And I am not judging you (as in condemning you) for your values”
Good.
” or lack there of.”
This just entirely negated your last statement.
“God will do that unless you repent and turn to Him for salvation.”
Please respect my right to my own dearly held set of beliefs. I have no interest in being preached to or converting. Please respect my freedom of religion. I hope not to have to iterate this point again.
What a relief that you said that… I was beginning to worry that I being too shallow loving two men at the same time.
Bastet 10.25 13th January 2014 “I am not a Christian”
Bastet 02.10 14th January 2014 “Please respect my freedom of religion”
ROFL
“.. they talk about women like we’re not of the sane species ..”
Well you got that right.
“.. metaphysics; the works of Alice A Bailey and other well known authors of the Golden Dawn; The Seven Ray Foundation; the Spiritualist Church (yes, I am aware this is a branch of Christianity); Bahai; the esoteric Kabbalah (not the exoteric); the Eastern philosophies of Dharma, Kharma and Bagua; astrology, numerology, and gematria. “
” *Personal moral and ethics “
LOL Game Over, guys. Delete yourselves, you got no chance to win.
@Tam the Bam you are correct of course. Still I’m going to give it another shot for the sake of some who might be reading. Most of what Bastet wrote is false, especially concerning the Bible.
@Bastet
Adultery (cheating) is wrong because the spouse/partner did not give consent. Bestiality is wrong because it is animal abuse and again, an animal cannot give consent.
According to who? You have no authority to impose your beliefs on anyone (your own morality at work here). You morality changes with the prevailing wind of popularity, so why should it apply to anyone at all?
I am defending love, consent and commitment between adults.
You are defending certain sexual perversions while defaming others. You take good for evil and evil for good.
The Odyssey and The Iliad pre-date the bible. If the bible was the word if god, and not man, why then does it not even pre-date literature, let alone, written and recorded history?
God doesn’t need to carry out His plans according to your timeline. This is not relevant.
Why were councils of doctrine held for a century to decide what editing needed to take place?
If this truly was the word of god, surely it wouldn’t have required a century of kings, nobility and clergy editing it.
You speak of what you do not know. The Bible is not just one book, but a collection of ancient texts and letters. 66 writings in three languages by 40 different witnesses spanning 1500 years all converging on the single theme of the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for sins that God’s people may be redeemed. 23,000 archaeological digs have found nothing contradicting the facts laid out in the scriptures.
None of these writings were edited. To pull off the con job you suggest would require men who didn’t even live on the earth at the same time or in the same regions, nor speak the same languages, to somehow collaborate together. For what purpose?
Those councils you refer to were to settle matters of doctrine based on what was already written, not to edit any of the texts or letters. Editing would have been impossible as there where thousands of copies of these letters already spread throughout the region.
The bible is no less man-made and no less changeable than any other document of opinion.
You base this on what? Your opinion?
There are less than 12 copies of Julius Caesar’s Gallic Wars
There are less than 10 copies of Aristotle’s Poetics
There are 0 copies of the writings of Socrates (what we have was written by Plato)
Yet there are over 6000 existing manuscript and manuscript portions of the New Testament alone. And the earliest of these are within 25 years of the originals.
Gallic Wars – over 1000 years after the original.
Poetics – over 1400 years after the original.
Homer’s Iliad- over 2100 years after the original.
Most people have no problem excepting that what we have from Julius Caesar, Aristotle, and Socrates wrote is legitimate. It’s only when the Bible is being discussed do people like you suddenly get skeptical.
Why was the bible and the maleus maleficarum the only two books allowed to be in print with the advent of the printing press?
Why would this have any bearing as to the validity of the books in the bible? You are aware that people were killed for printing and distributing the Bible in those days right?
My country does have religious freedom.
Permits are needed to hold any event, religious or otherwise on council grounds in public space.
Permits can be denied. This is not religious freedom.
No. Here I would refer to anti-discrimination policies as outlined by the UN. Unjust laws can and do exist (whether this law or another).
The UN’s policies change over time. Who decides when a law is unjust? Why should the laws that you like be considered just while the laws that an Islamic fundamentalist like be considered unjust? Both involve coercion. There needs to be a standard higher than you and the fundamentalist for this to make sense.
To specifically answer your question, it based upon metaphysics; the works of Alice A Bailey and other well known authors of the Golden Dawn; The Seven Ray Foundation; the Spiritualist Church (yes, I am aware this is a branch of Christianity); Bahai; the esoteric Kabbalah (not the exoteric); the Eastern philosophies of Dharma, Kharma and Bagua; astrology, numerology, and gematria. I am not spiritually lazy, turning to the idiot box as a source of knowledge. As mentioned earlier, I cannot see us agreeing on matters of theosophy.
So essentially you follow the spirit of the age. Furthermore, there is nothing mentioned above that is Christian, for that would require following the teachings of Jesus Christ and believing in His death and resurrection as a sacrifice for sins.
This just entirely negated your last statement.
No it didn’t. I did not condemn you by pointing out the truth. You’re trying to change the context. But I understand your confusion. You want me to except your frame of reference while not excepting mine.
I hope not to have to iterate this point again.
I’m not sure why you think you have a say in this, and refuting your illogical statements does not equate to disrespecting your right to anything.
I wanted to save this for last.
I speak only my own beliefs as relevant to me.
You make claims about objective morality with no foundation for such a belief. Consent of the majority does not determine right from wrong. If that is the basis of your morality then your morals are subject to the whims of the mob and easily manipulated by the few. Your spirituality won’t save you on the day you stand before a righteous and holy God. Trust in Jesus for He alone is your hope.
s/b My country does have religious freedom.
Permits are needed to hold any event, religious or otherwise on council grounds in public space.
Permits can be denied. This is not religious freedom.
s/b – Most people have no problem excepting that what we have from Julius Caesar, Aristotle, and Socrates is legitimate. It’s only when the Bible is being discussed do people like you suddenly get skeptical.
“The Odyssey and The Illiad pre-date the Bible.”
Um, what?
No. The Bible is more than the New Testament.
Homer’s epics would barely pre-date only a few of the “minor” Prophets. The Bible dun be old.
You do not have a right to anything you have to ask others for or.to respect
“The Odyssey and The Illiad pre-date the Bible.”
Um, what?
No. The Bible is more than the New Testament.
Yes and predates the works of Homer by several hundred years.
Recent statistical modelling based on language evolution has been used to date the Iliad at 760–710 BC. The Odyssey has been astronomically dated between 1178 and 1198 and archaeologically dated at around 1190 B.C.
The Tora (1st five books in the OT) are dated between 1440 and 1405. The book of Job between 2000 and 1500 B.C..
Jdg
You just really dont get it.
Preaching at someone who’s told you over and over that it’s completely irrelevant to them because they see it as a fictional man-made false deity is a waste of time snd extremely rude.
I really value the fact permits stop religious zealots from stopping me in the street and preaching bs at me. It’s very freeing to not be subjected to it.
Over and out.
If you are a believer then the Old Testament is as old as it says. If you aren’t it isn’t. Personally I believe it to be a work in progress and I am awaiting for the Director’s cut.
Having said that please distance me from Basnet: when did any Xtian ever stop you in the street any more than aggressively than a chugger and even if they did, so what, say ‘no thank you’ and move on. Atheists of her streak make me want to vomit. If that is what secularism is like give me Xtians any day. The country she might have noticed is a theocracy with a Head of State who is Defender of the faith. God bless her Majesty.
Although there were multi-culti mutterings by His Intergalactic Awesomeness The Most Esteemed Prince Chuck, Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, about being styled “Defender of Faith” on the occasion of his (no doubt vanishingly distant, Gorbless Yer, Ma’am) ascension to St Edward’s chair.
Which promises to provide some delightful spectator sport, observing the hogwild tussling for primacy and the Royal benison among the proponents of the various primitive voodoos which have been imported since he was a boy. Wonder if the Anglicans will be compelled to flog off their vast hoard of assets? In the name of “fairness”, of course.
Not a smart idea to debate a point with a woman like Bastet. The best response is “Do you want this dick or not? We need to get down to business” That is it. Infact it doesn’t matter what she thinks or believes. Does she or any other woman behave they way you find as good enough for the dick along with physical attraction to keep hard. Good enough. She is too old for a wife and besides that wives are not even available to be had. Approach with that frame and she may just make herself more attractive with out even noticing she is making herself a pleasant and enjoyable dick warmer..
Bastet,
I find your discourse to be completely logical and formidable. I definitely see you being mistreated soley because of your femaleness. Men do view women as a sub species to themselves and not sure of talking to them is ever going to change this dynamic. They appear to identify women as either good or bad and because yiu disagree with their male opinion, your obviously a woman in the ‘bad camp’. This is a form or control and shame men have been verbally abusing women for years and now we are tired of the bull%#*^. Understandable, the younger generation falea will never put up with this arrogance. Women are divided into 2 by the Madonna/ whore complex because of the church. You’re either a good mother or you duck a slut. Boxer so very elequently explained that to is. Where the author above states that
“Women who like you have been encouraged to nurture immorality in their character rather than decency. I’m not saying this to insult you.”
Because he truly believes that women nurture immorality. Prey tell, what do men nurture with their multiple sexy partners and mistresses? I would say men nurture immorality and indecency far more than any women who has male shame cast onto her.
Greyghost, you really look at women so basely? Arrogant aren’t you? Abusive? absolutely. Are you sure
You’re a Christian? You sound
Muslim.
No chance Greyghost, not with yours mate.
She’s pretty obviously a witch. A proper one. Look at that list of spooky-doo she “believes” in, for a kickoff, and the cat-goddess ‘nym.
… which might go some way to explaining her bizarre insistence that only two books were printed post-1487.
One of which was a lunatic tract concerned solely with witchy paranoia, quickly suppressed by the Church, and eventually – duh-duh-daaaaaH! – the Spanish Inquisition.
“In 1490, only 3 years after it was published, the Catholic Church condemned the Malleus Maleficarum as false.” [wiki]
So was Caxton some kind of subversive? A proto-heretic? All that Chaucer, Ovid and King Perishing Arthur, churned out from 1476 on?
Or is Bastert merely a dully disappointing liar, or a common fool?
Gender Differences in Marital Satisfaction: A Meta-analysis
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jomf.12077/abstract
The purpose of the present meta-analysis was to empirically test the widely held assumption that women experience lower marital satisfaction than men. A total of 226 independent samples with a combined sum of 101,110 participants were included in the meta-analysis. Overall results indicated statistically significant yet very small gender differences in marital satisfaction between wives and husbands, with wives slightly less satisfied than husbands; moderator analyses, however, indicated that this difference was due to the inclusion of clinical samples, with wives in marital therapy 51% less likely to be satisfied with their marital relationship than their husbands. The effect size for nonclinical community-based samples indicated no significant gender differences among couples in the general population. Additional moderator analyses indicated that there were also no gender differences when the levels of marital satisfaction of husbands and wives in the same relationship (i.e., dyadic data) were compared.
The best way to argue with a woman is with the back of your hand.
Anything else is futile
“The best way to argue with a woman is with the back of your hand.
Anything else is futile”
Are you just a caricature of a real man or are you being serious? You have to be the fakest internet hero of all time right? Nothing cracks me up like “ton” opining on anything. Greatest of all time caricature.
@Lumberjack jones
There’s always Poe’s Law, but frankly I think Ton isn’t real (which is to say, the person behind Ton is caricaturing something or someone).
Abusers – not Christian
Nope, I’m me all the time.
Come on down to Ft Bragg and I’ll be your huckelberry
1kingofkings
You are pretty stuck on yourself aren’t you? Why in the hell would any man want to control a woman anyway? That has got to be the most ridiculous lie women as yourself try to put over. Pedestalizing females is what has got us here in the first place. You contempt for males in general comes from being pedestalized beyond your worth. Speaking the truth to a woman and not engaging in a woman’s illogical arguments is not abuse or control.
new2redpill says:
January 13, 2014 at 11:49 pm
“@ Luke
Not sure how his income will be in danger were he to marry me. One of the things that would make my children disapprove of him is that I actually make more money.
I do not believe in divorce. I would never have divorced my husband. Should I ever marry again, the same commitment to vows before God would apply.
As for sex in the marriage – As I already said, I actually never once said no to my husband. I loved being intimate with him. It has been hard to have the door close on that part of my life, which is quite honestly a big part of why I wish to marry again. As a Christian, sex is closed to me unless I marry. I know that is hard to understand or believe if you are not a Christian, but that cannot be changed or negotiated in any other way – I must marry or continue sleeping alone.”
1) Men who have lower incomes than their wives can STILL get financially raped in divorce court. Even if there are no children to serve as excuses for chilamony, and don’t get hit with traditional alimony, they commonly lose assets/get assigned marital debts by divorce courts just because they’re male.
2) You may genuinely not “believe” in divorce — TODAY. Tomorrow, who knows. There is NOTHING stopping you from disastrously frivorcing a future husband but your inclination. For a redpill man to risk marrying you, there needs to be more to protect him than that (and I don’t mean a likely-to-be-ignored-by-a-divorce-court-thus-worthless premarital agreement).
@MarcusD
Agreed. His persona has been quite malleable over the months he’s been here; to say nothing of his advice.
While we’re on the subject: 1kingofkings is obviously phony. Bestat strikes me as young, gullible, and quite schooled; if only in that manner where the school’s lecturers teach what a further third party said about books, instead of actually from the books supposedly under discussion, themselves. Honestly: Not only is the Bible the most ubiquitous book ever printed; it is the most defamatory of the goodness of mankind, especially kings, nobles, and clerics. To describe Christianity as the religion of earthly nobles is about the dumbest thing one can utter. It’s so dumb that one couldn’t possibly learn it on one’s own. You have to go to college for that level of nonsense. It’s a community effort.
“The best way to argue with a woman is with the back of your hand.
Anything else is futile”
This is pussy bullshit advice. Any young men out there reading this blog should ignore crap like this!
@Cane
I certainly agree on all counts. Semantic analysis reveals that Bastet is most likely a female feminist (and 71% chance of being 40-65 years old; 60% chance of INTJ; 95.6% emphasis of negative sentiment).
The distinction between schooled and education is quite apt, I think.
Re: Bible as defamatory of the goodness of womankind. Keep in mind Ecclesiastes in still in the Bible.
Eccl 7:27-28 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
I think we all can agree tha Solomon knew the ways of a thousand women better than anyone.
Bastet,
I find your discourse to be completely logical and formidable.
LOL thank you. That was perfect.
To describe Christianity as the religion of earthly nobles is about the dumbest thing one can utter. It’s so dumb that one couldn’t possibly learn it on one’s own.
I hear this kind of none sense all the time. If it isn’t da vinci code baloney it’s some other heresy or urban myth about the Bible that was refuted long ago. People are getting fed this recycled garbage somewhere.
@ Luke
1. “Men who have lower incomes than their wives can STILL get financially raped in divorce court. Even if there are no children to serve as excuses for chilamony, and don’t get hit with traditional alimony, they commonly lose assets/get assigned marital debts by divorce courts just because they’re male.”
I think my track record is a pretty good indicator. I was entitled (and I use that word because I was according to law) to 1/2 of everything at the end of my 26 year marriage. He wanted me to give up the rights to his pensions as assigned by law. Know what? I signed off on that.
In my eyes, he earned those pensions and they were his, so I voluntarily gave them up. I also had student loans from my Bachelors and Masters degree programs. I signed off on his NOT having pay 1/2 of that debt though the law would have made him pay it. I am a Christian and I try to follow what is right. We used a moderator and he wrote up the terms as HE wanted them; I did not argue – I just signed because it was the right thing to do, no matter what the law said.
2.” You may genuinely not “believe” in divorce — TODAY. Tomorrow, who knows. There is NOTHING stopping you from disastrously frivorcing a future husband but your inclination. For a redpill man to risk marrying you, there needs to be more to protect him than that (and I don’t mean a likely-to-be-ignored-by-a-divorce-court-thus-worthless premarital agreement)”
I do not believe in divorce today, tomorrow – EVER. . It is anathema to someone who truly believes. Fact is, he was an adulterer, and still I fought to save the marriage and begged hm not to divorce. I would NEVER divorce because I have to answer to God on that one. Furthermore, frivoce is the game of the foolish. Tearing up your life that way brings nothing but grief for all involved. Aside from the damage done to me and my family, my husband hurt his children and his own family in ways he never dreamed of doing when he insisted on walking away from this marriage. I would never, Never, NEVER step into that territory.
@1kingofkings
Agreed. But I don’t believe Ton claims to be Christian. Either way, if he isn’t trolling with crap like that he may as well be.
“I would never, Never, NEVER step into that territory.”
You say that today. Tomorrow, who knows? You’re a chick, in a time and place where chicks commonly change their minds about contracts with NO negative consequences, not even briefly feeling bad/having to change churches/etc. THERE IS NO PROTECTION AGAINST YOU USING THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO DESTROY A MAN WHO MARRIES YOU, not in this country.
Now, if you offered a man who was a reasonable marriage prospect (but for understandable cold feet about the legal risk) the option to have your married life together be lived in a country (commonly non-Western) with Marriage 1.0 laws, I’d see what you’ve attested to above as being more likely sincere. Even your willingness to have just a religious wedding ceremony, with NO gov’t involvement (e.g., marriage license and NOT living in a common-law-marriage state), i’d find somewhat convincing.
Will you consider offering a prospective husband one of these?
1kingofkings
“Bastet, I find your discourse to be completely logical and formidable.”
Thank-you. I see them baiting for an emotional reaction. It’s rather transparent. I wonder if they’ve noticed they’re the ones getting all emotional and illogical; going on off-topic rants about who they would and wouldn’t ‘do’. ROFL!
“I definitely see you being mistreated soley because of your femaleness. Men do view women as a sub species to themselves and not sure if talking to them is ever going to change this dynamic.”
Yes, I tested the theory by posing as a male for a few months. The difference in response is staggeringly vast. As a male I am an ‘intellectual’, according to them. And I don’t get asked where I live, what my beliefs are, how old I am or what I look like. As a ‘male’ these things are irrelevant. It’s something I’d challenge these men to do; pose as a female and speak their honest truth without letting one single person know they are not female. The voice and opinions exactly the same; the only lie being the sex of birth. I know, beyond all shadow of doubt, they couldn’t handle it.
“They appear to identify women as either good or bad and because you disagree with their male opinion, your obviously a woman in the ‘bad camp’. This is a form or control and shame men have been verbally abusing women for years and now we are tired of the bull%#*^.”
Yes, that old tactic, Lmao. I don’t feel shame in response to filth spewing out another person’s mouth. Anothers hateful words belong to them and only reflect on them.
These men here don’t seem to notice their own contradictions. On the one hand they say I sound young and frivolous, and the other they’re guessing me to be in my 50’s. Lol. They’re questioning my ‘morals’ while using terms like ‘pump and dump’ and ‘cock-warmer’ to describe their own behaviour and beliefs. It’s so laughable I can’t even take it seriously.
” “Women who like you have been encouraged to nurture immorality in their character rather than decency. I’m not saying this to insult you.”Because he truly believes that women nurture immorality. Prey tell, what do men nurture with their multiple sexy partners and mistresses? I would say men nurture immorality and indecency far more than any women who has male shame cast onto her.”
They’re also afraid that if they deeply delved into true intimacy and connected fully on the level of humanity they’d discover that the spirit doesn’t have a sex, it’s only inhabiting a body that has a sex. With that knowledge their is no one and only correct path for women and one and only correct path for men; there is kindness, generosity of spirit, empathy, compassion, a humanity that we all share and a recognition of this or a blind ignorance to it. On the level of spirit they twist a comprehensive learning of multiple disciplines to ‘changing with the wind’ to justify a philosophy born of minds from 2000 years ago, conveniently ignoring spiritual and conscious evolution.
I’m thankful that the men in my real life are more evolved than this.
I lol’ed at that whole comment.
A self-admitted liar and deceiver is holding us in judgment because her sloppy reasoning and poor grasp of facts has been thrashed.
However will we recover?!
“more evolved”
Hamsterlation: “Know their place” “feminized”
Something tells me when the women of the world are asked, “You life is in danger, which nation of men do you want to save you?” her country doesn’t crack the top 10.
Indeed, Joshua. To “evolve” to a feminist is actually (to paraphrase Daniel Amneus) actually to de-evolve. That is, uncontrolled human female sexuality is a throwback to the Neolithic, the ghetto, Hait, and the barnyard. Controls over HFS only came along with patriarchial technological civilization, for which HFS was essential. Feminism is no more an advance in any way than is gov’t socialism (just another term for theft).
Its like the complaining women here don’t remember the thrashing we gave cail corishev, matt the king, or the thrashing IBB gets everyday. No we never give men shit.
It is good to know that Bastet has men in her real life; conscious and evolved men (presumably men as in the Dear Woman video) – they were certainly evolved though I am not sure whether they were conscious. Bastet said that she posed as a man for a few months. What greater proof does one need that women always want to enter male spaces even as impostors. She is of course wasting her time here, as we are clearly neither conscious or evolved, and thus deliberately treat her as a lesser mortal by reason of her sex.
Also, new2redpill, I strongly suspect you have not considered this thought.
You know that all of the law, culture, technology, and even churches now no longer support traditional (or real and/or Biblical) marriage. That’s not the half of it. It’s not even available (at least not in the U.S.) anymore currently, not with the “blamelessly frivorce at any moment for cash and prizes” sword of Damocles hanging over any would-be marriage corroding and corrupting attempts at being married, while they’re officially still going. Now, you CAN’T get married, not really, not anymore, at least until the collapse kills feminism in this country for a couple of centuries.
Celibacy, live a lie, or ex-pat, those are your only options IMO (unless you think you’ll live long enough to see the collapse, as you conceivably may actually do).
That would explain why you ignored the studies I cited that proved you wrong.
This is not FOR Bastet, but ABOUT Bastet, or rather her posts, and FOR other readers. She said:
“These men here don’t seem to notice their own contradictions. On the one hand they say I sound young and frivolous, and the other they’re guessing me to be in my 50′s. Lol. They’re questioning my ‘morals’ while using terms like ‘pump and dump’ and ‘cock-warmer’ to describe their own behaviour and beliefs. It’s so laughable I can’t even take it seriously.”
The first two sentences refer to her posts indicating she has the wisdom of youth, and the potential/energy/optimism/ability to learn an awkwardly new concepts typical of a near-retirement-age person. Those two conditions are sadly very possessable at the same time.
Second, she does NOT grasp that men and women are fundamentally different. That means their moral agency, their capabilities, their minds, indeed what can be expected from them during their lives. This is why God decreed different things for them.
As far as referencing “pump-and-dump” women, that’s literally all that’s left for a man to have WRT a possible personal relationship with millions of American women today. Past a certain (very small) partner #, a woman is unmarriageable (and often barren from STDs/age or already has bastards, taking all her time til she is age-barren and past marriageable age).
References: the ladder theory website, Daniel Amneus’s “The Garbage Generation”, and Roger Devlin’s “Home Economics”.
The women not needing a man statistic reflects in reality the female self-protective mechanism to the knowledge she is no longer attractive in the general market. Somewhat a coming of age. Most women would enjoy a relationship if they could get one. The problem is, they are unlikely to get.
““The best way to argue with a woman is with the back of your hand”
Absolutely not. That’s where us non-diary non-tablet (read; bluecollar) men keep the phone numbers.
@Luke
“Now, if you offered a man who was a reasonable marriage prospect (but for understandable cold feet about the legal risk) the option to have your married life together be lived in a country (commonly non-Western) with Marriage 1.0 laws, I’d see what you’ve attested to above as being more likely sincere. Even your willingness to have just a religious wedding ceremony, with NO gov’t involvement (e.g., marriage license and NOT living in a common-law-marriage state), i’d find somewhat convincing.
Will you consider offering a prospective husband one of these?”
Yes, actually I would..
I would not live as an ex-Pat because my family is here and they are everything to me, but since my desire to be married is only about faith and not law, I actually would have no problem with just a religious ceremony and no government involvement.
I am not interested in a man for his finances and I have already proven that. I am interested in companionship and lots of lovemaking, but with God’s blessing. For me, a purely religious ceremony (if we can get clergy to agree) would work for me.
REPLY TO VIC MARTIN POST OF OCT 16, 2013.
I HAVE EXPERIENCED EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID IN YOUR POST OF OCT 16, 2013. I HAVE BEEN DATING WOMEN IN THE 55+ AGE WHO ARE STILL VERY ATTRACTIVE. I HAVE BEEN DATING THEM AN AVERAGE OF 4-10 MONTHS, SPENDING PLENTY OF MONEY, INVESTMENT OF TIME, AND THEY NEVER WANTED SEX. THIS STUFF HAS GONE ON FOR 6 YEARS. IT SEEMS THE ONLY WAY TO FIND SEX IS TO DATE A WOMAN YOUNGER THAN 55 PRE-MENOPAUSE, OR DON’T PAY FOR THE DATES AND SAVE YOUR MONEY TO SPEND IT ON A PROFESSIONAL.
That is a deal no woman can make. The sword of Damocles is there regardless. dirty little secret she knows it too.
Well, I am 55-years old good looking and have more energy then I did at 20 – seriously. I am open-minded, not into game playing and drama, and enjoy the moments. I was in a long-term marriage and done with it – best move for me. Life is short and it is all about living ! Unfortunately, I am not attracted to any men I have met in their 50s 40s thru dating sites – all are sluggish, controlling, and unenjoyable to be with. It’s all about them and their whining over nonsense and I can’t deal with it. I adore guys much younger and yes, have dated them, but can’t develop anything much as it would be too hard for the kids. So miss sex as I love it so much but am not going there without a connection which has been two years now. There is nothing better in this world for a guy than a 50 plus old woman who has it completely together ! She is mature, enjoys much play, and has great confidence and knowledge !
“Unfortunately, I am not attracted to any men” agrees with the title. Seriously.
Jeanne M – More energy than at twenty… Not into Game-playing… Frivorce so as to have sex with men young enough to be her son… Nothing better than a fifty year old who has it together with her great confidence and knowledge… – this has to be a wind-up.
ROFL
” There is nothing better in this world for a guy than a 50 plus old woman who has it completely together ! “
There you go. That’s you lot told goodstyle. That’s the only thing wrong with Men, they just don’t know what they want, even when its served on a skewer with a drizzle of kebab sauce right in front of them.
If you don’t get a boner over that, then you Must Be Gay!
A very tiny minority of men would like a 50+ year old woman, for the same reasons that other tiny minorities get turned on by amputees, etc. It’s a fetish, nothing more.
For the vast majority of men, a 50+ year old woman is not a sexual object at all, and is about as much sex-appeal as a doorknob or tree stump; that is, zero.
Wrinkly skin, foul odors, exhausted and menopausal sex organs. Yeah, that’s really appealing. lol
Regards, Boxer
I’m sure this is relevant, and I’m sure you can work the analogies yourself no prob. While my father in law was dying a long agonizing death from prostate cancer, more than two full years after his “One year, max” sentence after his superscan, and prior to the feeding tube, he just wouldn’t eat. He always blamed the food, irrationally. He was disappointed that he now disliked his favorite hamburger “They changed something! They don’t make these like they used to (a year ago). I remember when I would eat three of these (and he did, too). They changed something.”
“I WOULD like, if only it were different.” is identical to “I don’t like it.”
Jeanne M sounds like a guy characterizing a cougar. In fact Jeanne M sounds a little like 1kofk to me.
Are cougars really this crazy?
Many are.
I find the nuttso ones are those without children. I guess it’s roughly equivalent to the average dude being perpetually angry, after a life of underachieving. Many women need children for the same reasons many men need some success in a career. These are the telos of human lives, and woe to him or her who thinks s/he’ll fool mother nature. That’s my theory, anyway.
I much like what you say Boxer, but Jeanne M does imply that she has children. She also claimed to be in a long-term Marriage (surely that is an Oxymoron).
As opposed to an actual marriage? 😀
Some American state (I keep thinking it was Alaska) floated the idea of expiration dates on marriages, that people would have to apply for every five years.
Guys, please. I must disagree. Statistics show that, just like it is the woman and not the man who loses interest after the honeymoon period, it is the woman and not the man who loses interest after her menopause. In almost all cases, the husband still desires his wife, but she doesn’t want him to. For the rare older woman who still desires sex (and is healthy etc caveats), then it is true she will have no problem finding both older men and younger men interested in sex with her.
@jf12
I’ll call your “Statistics show”, and raise to actual data. Data point #1, the AARP survey on late life divorce, which shows that divorced women are less likely to remarry, less likely to have sex (or even hugs) if they haven’t remarried, and are less likely to respond “on the top ladder of life” if not remarried. Data point #2 is the link at the bottom of the OP, the dramatically declining divorce rates as women age.
Dalrock is right about this. If you really look at the data, this shows what many of us have believed for some time, she ages she doesn’t want to divorce. Now, we can argue back and forth as to why that is. Dalrock may think it is one reason and I might think it is another, but we’ll both agree that women are less likely to frivorce their husbands the older they get.
IBB, we all know why old women don’t divorce and why, if they do, they can’t get remarried and don’t have much sexual invitations. Well, two reasons really. One, men don’t want them, at all. And, their sexual desire is six feet under. In both cases, a damn good reason to marry young instead.
fh, how was your new year’s eve?
Pretty good actually, but I did not go on any cruise if that’s what you’re going to ask..
I wasn’t going to ask that. I was in Vegas for New Year’s. I wanted to do that just one time, scratch it off my bucket list. So now I can.
Ahhh. I thought you were going to give me a lecture about picking up desperate old ladies on cruise ships. I am bitterly disappointed!
So sorry to disappoint. 🙂
Bastet, in response to Scriptural quotes cited in answer/refutation of her statements Again, I am not Christian.
And I’m not a Sunni Muslim, but if I were to go trolling on a website owned by one, centered around that faith, and commented on by people raised in that faith, I would be adult enough not to be annoyed, offended, or shocked when the answers to my questions or rebuttals to my points consisted of Suras quoted from the Quran rather than from Plato, Nietzsche, Betty Friedan, or any other populsr secular source that reinforced my existing biases.
If you’re going to troll, at least pretend to be semi-intelligent about it (as in at least a small nod toward common sense). People might then treat you with something other than dismissive scorn.
What is so great about this thread, is that although the title of Dalrock’s essay asks whether women are done with men after a certain age, the women who come here to remonstrate seem keen to tell us how hot and desirable they are (especially for men so much younger than them) – maybe they are, but that was not the point in issue.
@Opus “It’s not that I’m done with men, because I still sometimes get expressions of interest from men, and I especially notice the interest of younger men. I keep myself in pretty good shape, and the men seem to notice! That hasn’t changed, so I’m not the problem. The problem is, all the men have become a lot more unattractive.”
It is just a shame that we don’t have the good women that existed years ago that were very faithful to their men when money wasn’t an issue, and today there are so many very high maintenance women out there nowadays.
Well, 50 may be the new 30, but the hormones still dry up in your 50’s, that’s just the way it is.
Women in their 30’s want to jump in the sack, but not when they’re in their 50’s. By the time you get in the sack, you’re like 60 because it took that long. It’s a bummer.
My wife certainly got tired of me about the time she was 56 and received her inheritance. She answered everything with, “I’ve put more money into this marriage than you!” For example, I would say, “Please slow down; there’s a policeman following us.” She would speed up and say, “I’ve put 5 times more money into this marriage than you!” She flirted like an idiot, right in front of me. She went on pleasure trips alone, without me, and would arrange them well in advance and would wait two weeks to a month before informing me of her plans. She once said in reply to the question, “What do you most want to do with the rest of your life?” She replied (I was sitting right there beside her), “I would like to go visiting my friends.” She routinized our sex life. Nothing novel ever. She would not talk about those things that are always intimate between a couple, their sexuality, their feelings, thoughts, judgments of others, anything very private and personal. Indeed, she hardly ever could talk about those things, terming them “boy-girl talk,” which bored her. She put her head on the pillow talking about Chinese foreign policy and what happened in Sarajevo. When I telephoned her on her trips, she would be on her laptop yawning, bored with me, trying to read one of those internet sites while trying to talk to me at the same time. She would listen with intense interest to other men; me, she would grump at saying, “You need a hearing aid.” You get the picture.
She was shocked when I divorced her. In her vanity, she couldn’t believe I had left her. She accused me of wickedness and evil. But couldn’t she see what she was doing to me? The future with her was bleak: no sex or boring sex, lots of criticism of me, humiliation of watching her flirt, no one to laugh with because she never laughed with me, solitude while she traveled alone, etc. etc. She had given me no choice. Indeed, she wanted to make all the choices.
Guess what? At 67, I no longer need Viagra or the ED pills. (Secret: I don’t “finish”, so I am ready all the time). My girlfriend who is my age (! Shocker! Not a young broad! This one was my very first girlfriend, whom I last saw in 1958), adores me as I have never been adored (and contrary to the opinions above or elsewhere, has plenty of gratifying libido for me to gratify, it seems like more than girls in their twenties might have.). We talk on the pillows about everything personally important and interesting and don’t have to read “Foreign Affairs” first. She loves my body (which my Ex- only always criticized and alluded to as needing to be dieted). I make love more often than any 19 year old, and my wife loves my level of education, which is far far above anyone my wife ever flirted with. I am so happy I dumped my wife and divorced her. She probably is having the conversation right now somewhere on one of her pleasure trips, “We don’t need men, do we?”
She should ask my 68 year old girlfriend, who would answer, “No, we don’t need ’em but they sure are fun!”
I quit reading comments after a half hour of War of Words. Funny how this wasn’t the case for most part for the WW2 generation AND centuries prior, when couples married young, had many kids with a very low divorce rate, and usually one Family Income while still owning a house. What changed all this? Birth Control pill in the ~ early 70s, University lifestyle and other technologies, blooming Government taxes and relaxing Laws for morality, and so much more while all-the-while NEVER asking child(ren) if THEY would prefer their parents reconcile their differences rather than be ignored for usually what their Mothers want, which is no statistical lie and both genders know this as a Fact. Now, few young people especially males want to marry due to intense fears. Good job Baby Boomers, NOT ! The way around these severe problems is simple; look back to a time period when people married relatively young, remained together with their children FOR LIFE and review the overall lifestyle back then followed by copying it as much as possible while avoiding the lifestyles that caused the gender problems beginning ~ during the late 60s.
Greetings – fairly fascinating comments, have to go back and review but in the meantime I will post my personal 2 cents for what it’s worth. I’m 58 yrs old, F and in good athletic shape, still get cat calls, compliments from the opposite sex (all good). I’m not a ho bag, decent, funny, intelligent and thought myself to be a very fine mother and mate. But apparently, the smarmy guy I was married to and had quite a flexible schedule was off squiring the 21 year old office assistant for 3.5 years plying her w/ goodies, taking her on (business trips) haha, and seemingly having regular dates with her during the week under guise of business meetings. He’s a lawyer. He’s good at lying – no diminishment intended to the profession but they all lie and quite effectively. In any event, there’s a cure for chronic adultery and it’s called divorce which is the path I selected and I’m glad I did. My life is infinitely better without him. He didn’t bring much to the game. I’m just setting up for this part: I have no desire at this time to hook up w/ a guy. I’ll get asked out and I immediately decline in a sensitive fashion to the fellow but I am enjoying my damn freedom. Doing what I want to do, when I want to do it and how I want to do it. Perhaps if I would’ve had a better experience being married I would have another sentiment on the having-a-guy-in-my-life-post-55 but right now I’m high on my single life thank you very much. xxoo
i’m 54 & a half as of todays date. I’m pretty happy but feel I need to not waste another minute in another relationship where the man isn’t capable of achieving intimacy, opening up and discussing real feelings about real things in OUR marriage. I’m done being let down by men. I’M ALSO VERY FINISHED BEING LIED TO BY MEN ABOUT THINGS THAT I ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER TO BUT I’M TRYING TO GET THE TRUST BACK IN THE RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE AS WISE PEOPLE KNOW, THERES NO MARRIAGE IF THERE ISN’T ANY AT ALL TRUST!
I’M FINISHED WAITING FOR THE MEN IN MY LIFE TO JUST REACH OUT AND HOLD ME TIGHT WITH NO OTHER WORDS SAID AT ALL BUT A SIMPLE THANK YOU. , I’M OVER GETTING NOTHING FOR CHRISTMAS FROM MY BOYS WHO ARE NOW ADULTS. IT COULD BE HANDMADE OR VERY LITTLE MONEY BUT IT IS THE THOUGHT THAT COUNTS RIGHT? SO NO THOUGHT NATURALLY HURTS. OVER MALE RELATIONSHIPS LIKE A MARRIAGE that I’m responsible for ultimately which way it ends for us even if I was the only one in the marriage. I don’t need a man to make me alive. I can pleasure myself just fine and can achieve multiple orgasms just thinking about what I can do to myself. I’m done explaining to men that women don’t like sex the way mens porn shows women to love the act. I have been married three times to 3 selfish men who leaned on me for emotional leadership, financial leadership in two of three, I gave birth at almost 20 to a male and at 28 to another male. Their fathers were not good fathers. I paid for everything raising my boys. Still I loved men. Im about to go through divorce number three, I’ve been raped by men in my life a total of 3 times and one of these 3 times 5 males took part in the taking of my virginity. Growing up on my block for about 7 yrs I WAS THE ONLY FEMALE MY AGE WITH 11 AND AT ONE POINT 14 BOYS MY AGE TO PLAY WITH. I got beat up a lot and I beat boys up a lot too. I have had a total of 12 male bosses in my life thus far, I had the best dad growing up. I had a total of 5 boyfriends from 7th to 12 th grade. in between husbands I had more dudes than i can count-some famous some In-fam-ous.
With raising boys you get their friends usually boys as well. I inherited a stepson when he age 13 & a half (such a lovely age-NOT!) NO BROTHER JUST ONE SISTER BUT HER MARRIAGE SKILLS SUCK TOO I GUESS SO IVE HAD THREE BROTHER IN LAWS ON TOP OF ALL THAT LISTED. With that being said I will tell you I am tired of being exhausted and tired of giving in to men and not given the same respect back. I’m tired of men farting, burping, saying rude things that they think is funny and not thinking at all about my feelings. Im done excusing men for bad behavior I didn’t teach them. Marriage doesn’t work in this day and age and needs to be tweaked into something more reasonable that fits our lifestyles better than marriage rules that were put in place before the world could actually reach out see and touch each other from opposite sides of this planet.
Nice wig, Kim (and turn the volume down a bit – you’ll wake my neighbours).
hey thanks who doesn’t love compliments!!!!!!! neighbors? your neighbors? hmmmmmm don’t believe I’ve been hanging at your house at all. it’s okay. male right? I forgive you. you can’t help it. LOL
Definite drop-off in interest over 50 and esp over 55. I’m 58, divorced. In my 40’s, I had lots of sex… women were still interested in getting in the sack. Over 55… almost none. I’m still in good shape, etc., same person; certainly not as good looking as before, but there is a real difference, no doubt about it. Nearly any man in their 50’s will tell you the same thing. Everything goes the “friends” route.
The situation with women and sex is nearly always complex, but it appears to me that over 55, it is more complex than ever, when it ought to be simpler. I think the reason is that desire is less. When younger, the libido overwhelms the concerns, good judgment, etc. and they’ll more often jump in the sack. Over 55 or so, the desire is far less and no longer drives the decision, so all the concerns come out… plus even more water under the bridge to fuel those concerns and neither party is as attractive as they used to be. It’s pretty simple, really. It’s the solution that is complex and difficult.
I HAVE READ THE ENTIRE BLOG. I AM A 55YR OLD LADY WHO FEELS GREAT MOST DAYS AND WHEN I DONT THE PAINFUL ASPECTS OF LIFE I ENDURE WHICH WE ALL DO, JUST MAKE ME STRONGER AND MORE DETERMINED TO SEEK OUT POSITIVE THINKING AND LIVING . NEGATIVE PEOPLE DRAG YOU DOWN WITH THEM IF YOU LET THEM. THERE IS SO MUCH INSECURITY BETWEEN THE MALES AND FEMALES READERS. I AM COMFORTABLE WITHOUT A MAN. I WAS MARRIED BRIEFLY 1YR COLLEGE FRESHMAN PREGNANTSTORY. THEN 8 YRS HAD TWINS BORN AT 6MONTHS BOTH SURVIVED WITH NO HEALTH PROBLEMS BOTH ARE AMAZING. HUSBAND CHEATS. TAKE HIM BACK FOR A YR THEN I REALIZED I WOULD RESENT HIM HE HAD BROKE MY HEART AND IT COULD NOT MEND. IT WAS BEST TO LET HIM GO. I WAITED 2YRS FOR A 3O DAY DIVORCE ON THAT ONE. AND WAS FOLLOWED BY PRIVATE EYES HIS MOTHER HAD HIRED. NIGHTMARE SORRY I GOT OFF SUBJECT. I LOVE BEING A GRANDMOTHER MY GRANDCHILDREN CALL ME “GIGI”. GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE IN ALL THEIR ENDEAVORS.
Okay, that was painful to read, so I fixed it for you:
I have read the entire blog. I am a 55yr old lady who feels great most days and when I don’t the painful aspects of life I endure which we all do, just make me stronger and more determined to seek out positive thinking and living . Negative people drag you down with them if you let them. There is so much insecurity between the males and females readers. I am comfortable without a man. I was married briefly 1yr college freshman pregnant story. Then 8 yrs had twins born at 6months both survived with no health problems both are amazing. Husband cheats. Take him back for a yr then I realized i would resent him he had broke my heart and it could not mend. It was best to let him go. I waited 2yrs for a 30 day divorce on that one. And was followed by private eyes his mother had hired. Nightmare sorry I got off subject. I love being a grandmother my grandchildren call me “Gigi”. Good luck to everyone in all their endeavors.
Marty DiBergi: “Put it up to eleven. ”
Nigel Tufnel: “Eleven. Exactly. One louder.”
My parents and 8 siblings lived in an upper-middle class neighborhood, life was awesome, my father was the man I admired most…he was the perfect dad. My dad passed away when I was a naïve 12 year old girl. Immediately following my father’s death, our family was split up….myself and my siblings being sent to live with relatives’ homes until my mom remarried and we were all brought back together (when I was 14). My stepdad was great, but had his hands full with 7 new daughters (and 2 sons) to tend to. I felt like a sacrificial lamb, entering into a new, low-middle class world. Jr. High was a series of non-stop bullying. High school was the same. At age 16, a school friend’s older brother began to pursue me (he was 26). In the mind of a 16 year old girl, a 26 year old guy was an old man. Nonetheless, this man pursued me despite my not having any interest in him. Very few guys my age showed interest in me…I found out many years later it was because this man threated and ran them all off. At age 18, I felt un-lovable and finally relented…and agreed to date this guy. After a few months, I was the victim of date rape, this guy was now 28, but I was an adult. I told no one….I was ashamed. One sexual encounter…and I found myself with child. Wanting to avoid ‘disgracing’ my parents, when I had my child at age 19, I reluctantly started a life with this man and his children (he had custody of his three daughters). I was his maid, child care provider, cook, etc. He treated me disrespectfully, was continuously unfaithful and was psychologically abusive. During the 10 years I stayed with him, I put myself through college, while pursuing a legal career and raising 4 children. The last 6 months I was with him, I was the sole support of the family. I walked away at age 29. Having never married him, he got the home I paid more than half for, my car and all my belongings (he threated to kill me and my family if I tried to take anything. ) I moved on and a couple years later married a man 5 years my junior (I was 32). My husband suffered physiological abuse (abusive father) and had a trouble-making ex-wife, life was difficult. My husband succumbed to a heat stroke, leaving me a widow at age 36. I focused on my career for 6 years, dated a little, but found I attracted narcissistic personalities, staying single seemed like the best option. I started dating my current husband at age 42 and remarried at age 44. He is a career-driven man, who initially I thought would be my protector, husband and companion, perhaps for life. The past two years revealed that my husband is very narcissist. Every day I endure psychological domination…I’m a chess piece in a game he is always playing and must always win, keeping me off balance and relentlessly attempting to create feelings of angry, guilt, inadequacy and insecurity A continuous game of ‘ME versus YOU’……playing to win………refusing to be challenged. I’m successful in my career, our home is immaculate, I do everything he doesn’t desire to waste his time on (meal preparation, cleaning, yard and pool maintenance). I keep in top physical shape and take great care of my appearance. Everything I do……… it will never be enough. I’m not going to condemn all men for the misfortunes I’ve gone through. Seems many in the blog have resorted to feeling that all women are takers and users. Like those individuals, I merely encountered men who were clearly men I should have never chosen. I’m 55 now…and I’m not at all ‘done with men’. Yes, it’s a daily psychological battle with my current husband, but I have feet, I can walk away. I love my life….and have so much more living to do.
If you are 55 and over and think that if you walk out on your marriage that life is going to be a wonderful bed of roses like that movie “Eat, Pray, Adultery” (err sorry – Love) movie / novel, you are in for a terrible re-introduction* to the reap what you sow edict.
*(previous introductions having been what has brought you to the place you are now).
I am in my early 50s and I look fabulous. I always get looked at and whistled at by men both young, middle age and old! And that’s on an average day. I have kept my youthful looks and you could never tell in a million years that I’m the age I am. I don’t need a man in my life to feel valued thank you very much. I do my own thing and I am happy. I know I look great so who cares what a load of old wasters and losers think about older women? I am addressing the disrespectful women haters on this thread. Who gives a rats arse what you think anyway? Get over yourselves. Losers.
No woman in her early 50s looks “fabulous” to the great masses of heterosexual men. She only looks “fabulous” to herself, and to a man who has been happily married his whole adult life to her.
That, aside from a very few “granny fetish” types, is the whole population who admires a 50-something woman. End of.
I am in my early 50s and I look fabulous.
If you say so yourself.
—
I always get looked at and whistled at by men both young, middle age and old!
But I thought that was sexism/misogyny? Are you using sexism/misogyny for validation?
—
and you could never tell in a million years that I’m the age I am.
A nonsensical claim.
—
I don’t need a man in my life to feel valued thank you very much.
But you just used what men think/do of/towards you (mentioned above) as an indicator of value.
—
I do my own thing and I am happy. I know I look great so who cares what a load of old wasters and losers think about older women?”
Why are you here, then?
—
Who gives a rats arse what you think anyway?
Apparently you do.
Valerie Johnson says:
June 8, 2014 at 6:12 pm
“I am in my early 50s and I look fabulous. I always get looked at and whistled at by men both young, middle age and old! And that’s on an average day. I have kept my youthful looks and you could never tell in a million years that I’m the age I am”
It’s MEN’S opinions that matter re how “fabulous” a woman looks (and that’s really more of a poufter’s word than a term fully-heterosexual men are likely to use. Further, at > 50, she’s likely hit menopause (where her sexual desire has gone largely out the window, her parts don’t work so well now for sex, etc.). Lastly, her ova are in about the same condition as last year’s cheap tuna casserole left in the back of the refrigerator. If marriage is primarily about reproduction, as I believe, she missed her window for it.
I often get the feeling that many posts here are from bitter should be or real divorcees. I have tracked this thread for years – a lot of interesting posts. I rarely say anything myself. My situation is on a different track. Have been very happily married for 40 years. My wife has had hot flashes for 10 yrs and sex has been thin for sure. Now I admit to fantasizing pumping a hot babe or a one night stand – but I never do it. Thought for a while I was just chicken – but I realized that I simply did not want to hurt Lala. We really are soul mates and best friends. Sure she has tons of girl friends – but thats always been true – I like them – but I do sometimes feel they are more important to her than me. Yet our relationship is very rich – I am sure it is deep for her too. Over the years I have realized we are perhaps more fortunate and lucky than most. With sex it seems nearly all woman loose interest 55ish and that is a dilemma for the guy. The bottom line is, the sex drive is in the trash can. For the lucky pair of soul mates she certainly still has a deep relationship and does not loose interest in the guy. If he kicks the bucket – I THINK NEAR ALWAYS the platonic girl friends win.
Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
What Lala needs is this:
http://www.sottopelletherapy.com/ Find the doctor closest to you that has experience with this and do it, ASAP.
But be careful what you wish for. Without getting too graphic, let me just say that it is not like giving a woman testosterone. It is truly restoring her. It will turn the clock on her libido back to her 30’s.
Make sure you are ready for that!
Gschimoler, if a woman is “your soul mate” (note the second word in that term), wouldn’t she by definition want to have sex with you as often as possible, and with few inhibitions as to variety? Best friends, we don’t have sex with; mates, we do. (Not past mates, but current mate(s).) To put it bluntly, only one part of her anatomy (about 5% of her body) is directly made less able to have intercourse due to hormonal changes from menopause. Too often the legal marriage lives on, with benefits to one partner who has abandoned it, with little but costs on a current basis to the faithful one who has continued to act married. Methinks you’re not telling a fully accurate story (intentionally or not, I have no idea).
As far as men here being “bitter”, this is simply what honesty about the nature of the modern Western woman sounds like. It comes off as crass or worse to the unfamiliar ear, simply because we live in a time in which all the important issues can largely only be spoken of in lies, and because noncastrated men in particular are silenced under real threats almost everywhere but in places like this. Read Schopenhauer or Nietzsche when they write about women, and see how historically unremarkable thoughts sound heretical, at least to our one God N.O.W., for whom Betty Friedan (and Andrea Dworkin, along with Valerie Solanus) is our prophet.
Apart from the wonderful shaming by Valerie Johnson – as if some MRA wrote a shaming-template, notice the contradiction; ‘I always get looked at and whistled at by men/I don’t need a man in my life’.
Where I am, wolf-whistling is about to be made illegal (and has been treated by the police that way for a long time now – hence the need for women to slut-walk) – maybe the men are looking and whistling at her (if indeed they are) because being mutton dressed as lamb, she looks ridiculous.
Actually if you read the comment I made properly you would see that I never mentioned anything about how I dressed. For your info I don’t wear clothes designed for teenagers. I wear clothes that suit me, and look good on me. I also said, if you read the comment properly, that I don’t need a man in my life to feel valued. That’s not the same as saying I don’t need a man. Where you are in the world whistling may be illegal. In The UK where I am from, no man has been arrested for whistling at a woman, as far as I’m aware!
I didn’t know you had to be Gay to use the word fabulous? Anyway, who really cares what you think? Get over yourself!
Valerie sez:
Clearly, you care; otherwise you wouldn’t still be here, begging for the male attention you don’t get in real life.
Now piss off, ya dried out old fruitbat. This is a place for men to discuss things that matter.
Regards, Boxer
Luke is most correct. “To put it bluntly, only one part of her anatomy (about 5% of her body) is directly made less able to have intercourse due to hormonal changes from menopause.” I would say to gschimoler “I feel for you”, but that’s something Lala should be doing …
As an older man I have no problem mustering desire for my 64 yr old wife, and I think, pretending to misunderstand Boxer, she can look fabulous, despite being not very happily married to her for barely a majority of my adult life.
How do UK feminists feel about sammich making?
You know what I think, based on lots of conversations with older bros? If you are still attracted, then she has been a good wife. It basically comes down to that (perhaps its the male corollary to the female truism that “creepy” men are simply those that are unattractive).
If you were unhappy in your marriage, you wouldn’t be hot after her. The dick *always* knows a good woman.
That’s my (totally unscientific and anecdotal) theory, and I’m sticking to it.
It looks to me that some of you did not get the essence of my message – love is more than sex.
I was on the faculty of one of the top med schools for crying out loud …. there is nothing that “Lala should be doing” that has not been tried. Snake oil like hormone treatments have more down sides than ups. No medical, homeopathic, psychoanalytic, evangelical approach, etc, etc. is sure to work or even help – that goes for male and female menopause. I know a guy that is madly in love with his elderly wife who is dying of MS. Of course great sex is a wonderful thing. But to go the max on life you have to roll with the punches. Don’t waste your time whinnying about that bitch who just turned into a witch – that is the route for grumpy old men. Not someone trying to help yourself and others get the most out of what you will soon find out to be is a short but hopefully precious life.
Boxer you are right on the money.
Clearly, you care; otherwise you wouldn’t still be here, begging for the male attention …
Guys, why are you still feeding this pathetic(ally derivative) troll?
Boxer – I really like your style.
Greg, I have to respectfully disagree. And as a woman who is actually experiencing this, I think I am uniquely qualified to speak.
Surgical menopause got me at the age of 36. I never found anything that made me feel as I did before that surgical mutilation, and I tried EVERYTHING. But then last year…finally!!!
I hear and respect that you have a lot of experience in the medical field. The great thing about medical science is that knowledge keeps advancing. It took 20 years to advance to the point that something was discovered which restored me to the same level of enjoyment I had before the surgery – and no side effects except the rather awkward one of raging libido and unfortunately no husband.
If you and Lala are happy as is, then it’s all good! I’m just saying for those who would rather improve things, what I suggested is not snake oil. It happens to work very, very well.
New2redpill – I like that name. I am all with you. It would be ridiculous for anyone to think that I have not seen enormous advances in medicine – in technology – in science!!! My point is that as you know from all the years of pain and disappointment … that there are just no guarantees – despite all the great advances. I am very happy that something came along for you. My “roll with the punches” was to mean – make the most of what goes right, but don’t give up if you are dealt with a lot of strike outs. From what I hear that is exactly what you have done. I am very happy that your life is now a good bit better.
Sigh…Greg, I am grateful that I feel so much better but still…I have no outlet for all that improved desire and Lala has you.
Easy to see which of us two women has the better part…
I think this thread is still getting hits three years later because (in spite of repeated denials) this is a delicate subject of great concern to the female 55 and up crowd. Now why is that?
It is a sad indicator of our nations moral decay that there are so many woman single and looking to attract men at this age. A healthy society would have most women this age long since married and still married to the same man while enjoying the company of the children of their children.
I can’t speak for the others, but I think it is a good thing for confused women who are considering divorce to read about the reality of such an idiotic decision before they do needless injury to their husbands, and family members. For many it is too late, but maybe not for others. One can hope.
Just my 2 cents.
Women don’t understand cause and effect very well. Also, they don’t care about injury to their husbands (or even their children, for that matter).
Yes I agree. I mentioned the husbands and family because I don’t want them to be needlessly hurt. I agree that most women who do this aren’t thinking of anyone but themselves (I have seen this time and again).
My thought was (and It may just be fantasy) that there might possibly be a few who would take heed of the dangers to themselves and avert their course (thus sparing others pointless hurt). Yes I know, cause and effect. But it can’t hurt to try.
Luke – I am not surprised that you are bitter having Schopenhauer and Nietzsche as your heroes. Franz Shubert – another 19th century German, but from the romantic camp – has an eloquent quote: “Happy is the man who finds a true friend, and far happier is he who finds that true friend in his wife.”
> “they don’t care about injury to their husbands (or even their children, for that matter).”
All? Prove that most women do not care about their children. Many certainly do not today and the system certainly encourages that, but I do not think this has been proven to the point where NAWALT is the rare exception. Fallen human beings do fallen things, but that doesn’t mean they always do fallen things. Generalizing too much is dangerous, especially in this case.
I could give you plenty of examples that fit this case, but several that also go against it, sometimes in the same individual. It is not a binary thing in all cases either.
@Greg Schimoler, I don’t think there was much to misunderstand.
“sex has been thin for sure”
“simply did not want to hurt Lala”
“the sex drive is in the trash can”
Luke and I suggested that if Lala actually loved and respected you the way she should then she would love and respect your still extant sex drive in any way she could.
The dick always knows a good woman? I wager you wouldn’t know a good woman if one came up and bit you in the ass! This is a serious thread for men to discuss what matters? For your info, loser, nothing you have said matters to any normal person in the slightest! You piss off you geriatric toss pot!
Valerie Johnson says: June 11, 2014 at 5:30 pm
I think you would lose your bet, and what you said is not a very nice thing to say to a young man who is genuinely concerned for the well being of children. You should be setting a good example for other women to follow instead of displaying harpy-like behavior.
With that being said, my pen!s was never able to spot a good woman. It was quite the opposite for me. It took lots of prayer and wise council to find one. Strangely enough, I was unable to find one that wasn’t already taken in this country, and there were’nt all that many good women who were taken either. Now why is that?
Greg Schimoler says:
June 9, 2014 at 7:25 pm
“New2redpill – I like that name. I am all with you. It would be ridiculous for anyone to think that I have not seen enormous advances in medicine – in technology – in science!!”
The “red pill” that MRAs speak about has essentially zip to do with medicine, and not that much to do with any established science in general. (Psychology is more pseudoscience than not when it’s not anatomical/biochemical, and the “social” sciences such as sociology? Don’t make me laugh.)
I am a multiply-degreed, working scientist myself, FWIW. (Closest direct area of expertise is industrial microbiologist.)
===========================================================
Greg Schimoler says:
June 9, 2014 at 5:49 pm
“It looks to me that some of you did not get the essence of my message – love is more than sex.”
Men define what love is for them. For the vast, vast majority of men, it’s SEX PLUS (industriousness, fidelity, fecundity, thriftiness, continence, pleasantness, etc.).
Welcome to the concept of “necessary but not sufficient”. A wife who wishes to stay one (in more than name, anyway, e.g., in God’s view, in her husband’s view, and in that little voice that whispers about all her fears to her when she’s awake late at night) will choose dodging sex with her husband up to a surfeit from his POV no more than will a responsible husband and father dodge going to work at a job that supports his household. That is, he may get some intrinsic reward from it, but regardless, he does it. He doesn’t wait for an every-9-year alignment of the planets to feel 100.00% so that THEN, and only then, is it “right”, with him going to the job. Frankly, if a wife with a remotely healthy husband (pretty much any not bedbound), if she’s not giving him 3 BJs and 6 screws a week (some of which she initiates and/or pushes for nothing for her), she’s holding out on her husband, just as much as he would be if he voluntarily only worked PT at ONE job, when the family needed money.
@ Ms. Valerie Johnson:
You indicate, “nothing you have said matters to any normal person in the slightest! You piss off you geriatric toss pot!”
What is said here matters to me and many other men; some of whom post and some of whom do not post. Why come here and try to insult us. This is one of the few places that men can congregate, at least digitally, and converse about stuff that is important to men from a man’s perspective. You do not have the slightest understanding what men go through in our current pathological culture. Especially men who are divorced and share custody of their children. Perhaps try being somewhat empathetic??
Gentlemen,
Valarie Johnson is delusional. She may (or may not) look good for a woman in her 50’s. I suspect that if she is being cat-called by men of all ages, either her hearing aides are defective or she lives somewhere where the male-to-female ratio is completely skewed, like at the bottom of a coal mine.
And no woman who writes stuff like, “You piss off you geriatric toss pot!” is going to get a man worth having anyway – so either she’s not getting nearly as much favorable male attention as she claims, or she’s getting it from the absolute dregs of society.
I wish I had any answers to any of it, However, I can only state my own experience as a fact.
I had been a compassionate, caring, faithful man and dad,, married 22 years. My wife would not tell me what troubled her, She would not communicate with me any longer despite my sincere efforts., At 59 I reluctantly granted her a divorce. She met another man quickly and is happy , living the good life. On the other hand, I have struggled, never understood why we divorced and find it extremely difficult to meet any lady to share time with.
my marriage is on 34 years now , both kids are grown , daughter is married with 2 grandchildren , wife has been a stay at home Mom since 1987 . She now has gotten large and out of shape , we have had no intimate relations for the past 4 years … what is a man supposed to do ? She was an attractive woman when we first met , yet did not feel it was her responsibility to take care of herself during the marriage , worked my buttoski off and provided well for the family … but we look at each other and I see that both odf us have changed ..,,,, i do love my wife , but am not attracted to her sexually … she is a good wife and mother …so sad
I am 56 years old. I am a widow. I had a very happy 31 year marriage till my husband’s death. I was 17 when we married and he was 23. We literally grew up together. I miss him each and every single day.
I “dated” a man after his death for 7 years. I am no longer with him but it was not for a lack of love, devotion or effort on my part. My most detached description of him is: a 51 year old, 250 lb, bi-polar, alcoholic man with the emotional maturity of a 14 year old boy. He was a hard worker, intelligent, but completely guided by fear, selfishness, and paranoia and demanded that everyone around him adapt to what he thought and wanted. One minute “Mister Charming” the next: verbally abusive, psychotic and schizophrenic. He did a very good job of masking his ‘true’ self for many years. I am a very, very committed type of person, but, I recognized that it was a completely dead-end relationship and said, “I love you. I can not be with you. I wish you well. Good-bye.” And, just like that, I left. I took no money from him and left him financially better off than when I came into his life. I do not miss him, but I am sorry for him. I stand back, shake my head, and ask myself, “What did I ever see in him?” I can only attribute it to the abnormal emotional state I was in after losing my husband a year and a half before we started dating.
Where am I now? I am managing okay financially. I would love to have a husband again, but at my age, I am no longer willing to completely turn my life inside-out to cater to some selfish ‘boy’ of a man. My husband made me the queen of his life and I adored him. I KNOW what a good man is like. I will accept no less of a man ever again. I would rather spend the rest of my life single.
Now then, as to my 56 year old sexual drive and my 56 year old ability to emotionally attach myself to someone else…
I contunute have a passionate sexual drive but I will NOT engage in casual sex: e.g.: sex outside of marriage ever again. Never. Any woman who engages isn casual sex is accepting for themselves a truly raw deal. They might not be able to see it at the time, but it is just plain and simply: wrong. A man who would use any woman like this is an utter cad – e.g.: A man “who behaves in a dishonorable or irresponsible way toward women.”
I am quite capable to forming a strong and life-long, loving, devoted bond with the RIGHT man. Let’s explore what makes up the ‘right’ man for me:
• He would have to pretty much worship me and make me the center of his life and be devoted to my well-being and happiness.
• He would have to treat me at all times with respect. Try to pull any abuse with me – either physical or verbal, and he would rue the day. John Wayne’s character in his last film, “The Shootist” put it perfectly: “I won’t be wronged. I won’t be insulted. I won’t be laid a-hand on. I don’t do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
• I have two daughters from my marriage. They come before anyone else in my life. He would have to be 100% fine with that forever and ever and ever and ever. NO compromise.
• He would have to be financially self-sufficient AND he would have to take care of me financially and at the same time understand that my wealth from my late husband goes to my daughters when I die. ALL OF IT.
• He would have to be 100% faithful to me. Absolute fidelity. I expect no less from myself, I expect no less from my man. End of story.
• He would have to be a genuine Christian. The ONLY other people that should come before me and any children he might have is the LORD. I would expect him to be the Spiritual Leader of our household.
• He can not be an alcoholic or use illicit drugs. He can not be addicted to Rx drugs.
• He must be committed to taking care of his health and body. To be able to be the man that I would need him to be, he must love himself in this way.
In closing: Any man who could measure up to my standards and who loved me and wanted to make me his wife would be a very HAPPY man. I KNOW how to love. I’m worth it. And to all you young kids, remember this:
LOVE is NOT a feeling.
Did you hear me?
LOVE IS NOT A FEELING.
Love IS is a decision. A DECISION. It is an act of the will, the mind, the heart, and the soul.
So, you insist the he make you the center of his life, but you make the center of your lifr the kids. What if he has kids?
Victor Granquist says:
July 14, 2014 at 4:49 pm
She touched on that with this:
He would have to be a genuine Christian. The ONLY other people that should come before me and any children he might have is the LORD.
…I will NOT engage in casual sex: e.g.: sex outside of marriage ever again. Never. Any woman who engages isn casual sex is accepting for themselves a truly raw deal. They might not be able to see it at the time, but it is just plain and simply: wrong. A man who would use any woman like this is an utter cad – e.g.: A man “who behaves in a dishonorable or irresponsible way toward women.”
Okay we get it that the man who uses a gal for sex is a cad; however, I seem to be unable to find the part where you point out that a woman who allows herself to be used in such a way is a slut.
I am quite capable to forming a strong and life-long, loving, devoted bond with the RIGHT man. Let’s explore what makes up the ‘right’ man for me:
• He would have to pretty much worship me and make me the center of his life and be devoted to my well-being and happiness.
Well, at least you’re honest about what you want from a man. But how does the bit about worshiping you fit with this:
He would have to be a genuine Christian. The ONLY other people that should come before me and any children he might have is the LORD.
Then where do your daughters fit into this paradigm?
I have two daughters from my marriage. They come before anyone else in my life. He would have to be 100% fine with that forever and ever and ever and ever. NO compromise.
So the hierarchy in the home (at least for any potential suitor) must be: your daughters > the Lord > you > himself (or is there something else that should go here?).
You allude to any future husband adhering to a Christian framework, yet you blatantly ignore the requirements for the woman in a Christian marriage. According to the Bible, the wife must respect and obey her husband. Now please tell me how a wife will be capable of doing her part when her view of marriage is so warped that in her mind her husband can be reduced to third place in the household hierarchy (below herself and her daughters)?
The Christian hierarchy according to the Bible is this: Christ > Man > Woman > Children.
LOVE IS NOT A FEELING.
Love IS is a decision. A DECISION. It is an act of the will, the mind, the heart, and the soul.
This is very true. Love is an act of the will. But I find it quite amazing being acknowledged by a woman, especially one capable of writing what you wrote in the rest of your post. Do you actually understand what “an act of the will” means? Do you realize that it isn’t just men who have a set of rules to follow?
At your age, what exactly will you bring to the table that is of value to a man?
I am quite capable to forming a strong and life-long, loving, devoted bond with the RIGHT man.
And…
Is that all?
You offer a lifelong, loving, devoted bond to a 56 year old woman who requires to be kept on a pedestal and worshiped while he is relegated to the position of a third class household member (slave).
Why exactly would he want to do that?
I’m surprised no one has mentioned that due to war (Vietnam especially) and conflicts in the Middle East, etc. the ratio of men to women is extreme. There are far more women and of course the younger ones win out. My brother’s wife recently passed away and immediately the onslaught began with the available 50 yr. old and he is 70 and retired with a good income. Also, in the past there was no birth control; thus, women had large families and died in child birth. The men then married more then once. Due to the high baby births, there were also more equal male/female population until wars hit.
Crazy crazy women leaving comfortable, stable and dignified lives for what?? You Go the best man you will ever had and you have frivorced him. Taking his money with you no doubt.
I’m 39 and slim, single no kids but I feel depressed after reading this 😦
I do feel sorry for men and how they have been vilified over the last 50 years. I am tired of Feminism. Not all of us are botches. Some of us love and appreciate men and what they have done for us. We wouldn’t have progressed beyond the stone age without men. Every great invention and scientific breakthrough has been made by a man. Women jumped on the bandwagon right in the middle of the 20th century and attempted to take the reigns.. Feminists have turned men and women into enemies even though they let us off the Titanic while they drowned.
If women stop being feminists and return back to basics then they will see that men is not thy enemy…
Hey didn’t men even invent beauty products?
Oh Btw women cannot drink a man under the table unless and they look like tits if they try..
Exactly, “what is the point” in marrying and having children who will experience hell on earth when so many mothers leave the marriage at middle age or younger because they don’t “feel” it. And, there is no need for a partner financially since that is taken care of in every which way. This is why most and a growing number of young men will not commit. This is the price of disobeying the natural order of things replacing it with our high technology that rules thus controls all of us. The culture that maintains the strongest link to natural law will be the one to take over and predominate through numbers alone; this obviously is not the Caucasian race losing grown year by year because they consider and even value technology, $, education and things more than Life itself other than their own, general speaking. Good luck to your future because you’ll need much more than luck, spoken from a Caucasian too
OMG this thread has gone off the tracks since 2011!
For the early posters. Im a 61 year old man. Believe it or not in the last 4 years I have had a wonderful year with an 18 year old woman, yes cute, 113 lbs and in college, a 20 year old woman in the military, and four early 40s woman. One quote was, “omg youre turning me in to a whore.” You want to know why men arent having sex with 60 year old women…Young girls smell like organic vanilla yogurt! Do you remember how wet a 20 year old gets???? A 60 woman usually looks terrible. They let themselves turn into morbidly obese cows with the flexibility of a dry saltine cracker.
Now for all the feminist haters… I understand that haters gonna hate. But some of the funnest girls Ive been with were totes up feminists! Hell all the millennials are GBLT loving Obama votin feminists. Get on board guys and spread the love!
Observations from a 61 year old guy. ikr?!?
Bob
I am quite capable to forming a strong and life-long, loving, devoted bond with the RIGHT man. Let’s explore what makes up the ‘right’ man for me:
• He would have to pretty much worship me and make me the center of his life and be devoted to my well-being and happiness.
• He would have to treat me at all times with respect. Try to pull any abuse with me – either physical or verbal, and he would rue the day. John Wayne’s character in his last film, “The Shootist” put it perfectly: “I won’t be wronged. I won’t be insulted. I won’t be laid a-hand on. I don’t do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
• I have two daughters from my marriage. They come before anyone else in my life. He would have to be 100% fine with that forever and ever and ever and ever. NO compromise.
• He would have to be financially self-sufficient AND he would have to take care of me financially and at the same time understand that my wealth from my late husband goes to my daughters when I die. ALL OF IT.
What a catch, I tell you. What a catch indeed.
@bob, re: “Do you remember how wet a 20 year old gets????”
Yes. Ah, memories. My 20 year old’s most intimate odor wasn’t organic vanilla yogurt, though, but a sort of cottoncandy-sandalwood that I literally could not wash off my fingers.
Profile after profile says some version of this. I always wonder: do they realize this basically says, “If you meet all my expectations (which at least one previous guy clearly couldn’t) and treat me the way I think I deserve, I might spend some of my free time with you”? I used to think maybe they were trying to signal their mothering qualities, but most of them don’t want to have more kids with a new guy, so he wouldn’t have any reason to care about that. So it’s a warning: don’t expect much from me!
I always want to tell them: Look, we know your kids are a priority and require time and energy. If they weren’t, you would have sold them for medical experiments, and we wouldn’t want to date you anyway. But don’t throw it in our face, like you can’t even wait to meet a guy before you start blowing him off.”
The male equivalent would be putting in your profile: “My mother is my first priority; whenever she calls and needs help with her gutters or her oil changed, I drop everything and run over there. Any woman who wants to be in my life will have to accept that Mommy comes first!”
Behind the arrogance it is perhaps a sign that they know they have little to offer. Of course, in my Gigolo period I had Mothers saying the same, but then marriage was not really uppermost in my mind. It is perhaps also a way of hiding the fact that all they really want is pump and dump – but of course cannot say so or admit that to themselves.
Who knows what women mean – they clearly don’t – so usually it is best to ignore their words but to observe their actions. If they are mothers and are going on to dating sites then obviously the children cannot be the first thing on their mind. Men, of course, are never allowed to stipulate their requirements but merely supplicate themselves.
@Novaseeker
Reminds me of an exchange my wife described while waiting in line at the grocery store. A woman was laying into her husband, bitching about this and that. The husband finally had enough, and loudly proclaimed:
@new2redpill
“As I already said, I actually never once said no to my husband. I loved being intimate with him. It has been hard to have the door close on that part of my life”
Well, I’m not religious myself. But I think the more devout here would say that you are still married to him in God’s eyes. His leaving you without grounds for divorce was a null act. So, I’d suggest you invite him over, ply him with wine and get busy. In fact, some would say there is no Biblical prohibition on polygamy – so think of it as being a second wife. At worst, he’s still married to you and not her. If he is devout, you might need to explain the technicalities of this to him. 😉
As to him suddenly up and leaving you after you made more money, I’m guessing your behavior toward him changed even if you don’t think so. The submission you speak of probably went out the window. Or at least he certainly perceived the situation that way. People want to feel needed – you said yourself he was no longer “needed” (and you didn’t limit that to financial issues). Either that, or he used your making more money as an excuse without discussing the real reason.
Lastly, you mention in your first post that you struggle with weight issues – “not huge but not a size 8”. That can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Most men don’t need a woman to be really slim – I certainly don’t – but there are limits to that for each guy. It may be hard to control your weight, but it’s a lot easier than most of the things men are expected to do to be attractive. Look how easy it is for most gay men when they know that’s pretty much all that’s required of them to be attractive to other men. Hit the gym and do squats – lots of them. Eat paleo.
This thread is still the gift that keeps on giving, year after year. It’s truly interesting how it continues to draw certain women in.
If social science were real, there would be college professors studying this thread and offering to fund it in the future, just to provide a longitudinal study.
Anonymous Reader says:
August 13, 2014 at 2:14 pm
It has become my favorite thread. It is tragic yet incredibly revealing at the same time.
To all women reading this who have not yet nuked their families, learn from what you have witnessed in the writings of the divorcees above and take care not to be fooled as they have been.
To all men likewise take heed, lest you too be cast into the government sponsored divorce / CS machine by an ungrateful, cold hearted, narcissist who will not shed one single tear for the heart break and destruction she levies on you and your children (if any).
Stay back men! She’s mine, you can’t have her!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I’m still laughing!
Fantastic!
@ Crank
Thank you so much for your observations and suggestions.
My former husband left for a combination of reasons. It began with his taking a job that had us on opposite schedules. I was getting off work as he was beginning his shift. We never saw each other, save once a week when he was off and we went out to dinner where we struggled to connect. When I needed help or advice, he was never there so I turned to older son – a very bright Alpha who actually became the “man” of the home, so to speak, so his father wasn’t needed (though i didn’t realize that dynamic at the time). The fact that I earned more was just the topper.
I am not married to him anymore. He has a wife, and it would be wrong to try and come between them. However, I must say that once I found out a month after the divorce that he had been committing adultery for at least 3 years, I lost all interest in him. Even if his present marriage dissolved, I could never be with him again.
I have to acknowledge jf12 at this point. I thought he was being way too simplistic and vastly overstating when he advised that if I let men know that I was “raised” as a submissive wife and practiced that in my marriage, I would have plenty of proposals. Turns out he was right. I’ve actually had a few men discuss marriage in the last year, and it came quickly – after only 2-3 dates, long before I was ready to go there.
I met a great guy whose 20+ year marriage to an independent and domineering wife broke up about 18 mos before. We have much in common and appear to be a good match. Still, it was only a couple of weeks before we hit our first conflict. He spoke his feelings on the matter and waited for my reply. In situations like that, I listen for the leading of the Holy Spirit and in this instance, I felt conviction. I was simply wrong. I told him that I realized I was wrong, and that I was ashamed to not have made a better decision. I then said that I would immediately do as he had asked. He was stunned. I did not know it, but he was steeling himself for a fight. He said that is what would have happened with his ex wife and he expected it with me. I explained to him that under headship, I reacted exactly as any Christian woman should. Over the space of the next few weeks, that happened twice more. It required no thought on my part and seemed quite natural. For someone who thought submission was a horrible, oppressive thing, he got comfortable with it pretty quickly, Once he realized it was real, he started speaking marriage as well.
So – you are right – it wasn’t the money and it wasn’t a few pounds. And jf12 was right – if a man knows he has safe harbor with a woman, that is what will really make him happiest. And BTW, I am 57, so it’s not about getting a 20 year old either.
Hell all the millennials are GBLT loving Obama votin feminists. Get on board guys and spread the love!
Bob that’s not love you’ve been spreading around.
@new2, re: “Turns out he was right.”
Good to know! I do try to be right, even if it doesn’t show, even on the more offbeat comments I make. Maybe I should tone those comments (e.g. sticky fingers) down so my “better” comments would shine a little brighter.
At all ages I hear a common theme of never wanting to be responsible for themselves (women) and especially after 55. I believe that whether on paper or not, if you have a child with someone, those two people are and forever will be that child’s parents. No matter what happens to the relationship between the parents. They remain the childs.. parents. Unfortunately, western soceities have it that we encourage broken families through lack of responsibility/accountability. Women have ‘get out of jail cards’ for everything nowadays. Most governments have programs for easy access to ‘day after pills’. Or, if the woman in question feels ambiguity, well her rights are entirely preserved the whole way through and she can opt out at any time with basically guaranteed state support, bailouts, tax breaks etc. if she’s smart and lands a good nugget, she’ll want to ‘sanctify’ the whole madness before opting out with better options. The whole process, pampered, never any accountability.
There was a time when in people’s lives it was normal to ‘make mistakes’ and ‘do penence’. Learn lessons. Now, there’s bailout for women while men are still expected to pay up. And quick we are labelled ‘demons’ of some nature if we don’t fall in line (and pay$ up).
Most men I know, of different ages basically sumarize what soceity has told us … “If you know what’s good for you, you don’t say anything” bs kind of lines. Such crap. For what? An ungrateful, manipulating, will-come-out-on-top no matter how amicabliy either of you want things because of her gender’s elected social fear programs protecting their every move? No effn thanks.
I have my beautiful son. We never married. I was never an absent father. I was always a more than capable ‘modern guy’ i.e.: do it myself in every way, including the household. i will not _settle_ for any of the riff raff out there and modestly handsome in my early 40’s, I have had my share of fun so I can really comfortably enjoy my son. Don’t kid yourselves, I feel fortunate that we never married. Of course, I was for it guys, I believe in the basic family unit and fidelity etc… she, ten years younger, lol she wasn’t for marriage. In that regard, I am gratefull. I have less hooks in me and can invest 100% of my time, love and attention into my son, even if I only have him 50% of the time. However I feel about his mother (and don’t get me started) – I have always wanted my son to have unlimited access to us, his parents. It seems only natural and should never change – regardless of failed relationships or not – it’s called dealing with it and if you can’t neither parent should have had a child in the first place.
Peace
Hi “WhatwasIthinking?” … what you were thinking was the lost wholesome Tradition of a tight family and as much as I can go on and on w.r.t. your address, Government and now Corporations too YES have and will cater to females as long as it keeps the MONEY rolling in. Also, if they did not do this, can you imagine the blood there would be in the streets with female rallies? I am GLAD you have your son 50% of the time and so you must have remained out of Family Court an Evil Curse to more the Paternal side and most definitely children. Childrens’ and fathers’ concerns take second fiddle to women so staying away from the Courts is the first step and yet, even then, fathers generally have a gun held to their head during negotiations with a child since women know they can always “take him to court” if he doesn’t give me want I want and entitled too” $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ . My advice to young males, don’t live with someone and especially no child until unless a Solid Written Contract is signed, sealed, and delivered to the courts such as a prenuptial agreement protecting childrens’ and fathers’ rights too! It is called EQAULITY ! Sir, even young women are seeing the lies, deceptions, and unnatural ideology of Feminism or Equality or Women’s Rights as what it is > taking control of men and children. I hope the non-Western world does not get caught up in this because if they do, they too can say goodbye to the family institution.
Hi John, you wrote: “I am GLAD you have your son 50% of the time and so you must have remained out of Family Court an Evil Curse to more the Paternal side and most definitely children”
Yup. We never married. And yes “….and yet, even then, fathers generally have a gun held to their head during negotiations with a child since women know they can always “take him to court” if he doesn’t give me want I want and entitled too” $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ .” She did just that. Not three months apart and she’s suddenly demanding money saying she’s a/ entitled to it for our son (sorry, her words were that my son was entitled to this so…segway into the next point, if you don’t pay your son -> b/ I’m a deadbeat dad c/ going to take me to court.
She’s had her hand out from the beginning.
Well, I had access to legal aid through a friend at the time and contacted a family lawyer who advised me the exact figure I’d have to pay (which was less than half of what she was claiming our son suddenly needed). I advised her of the amount I’d pay and how I’d obtained the figure. She accepted and aside from an adjustment to account for an increase in her income, it’s been that way ever since. What I find hilarious is that for 4 months I was in between jobs and based on the law, she should have paid ME child support. And not only didn’t, kept asking me for child support during that time, regardless. Of course, I never asked her for a penny during the time I was unemployed, and was completely transparent about my situation (lest I find myself penalized i.e. lose custody).
“In my post on Advanced Divorce Sales, commentator “Rhen” suggested that women lose interest in men around age 55: “Women in long-standing marriages tend to want to move on more”… part of this may be biological. Hormonal changes after menopause seem to reduce a woman’s emotional range and particularly her interest/ability to bond. On the average, […] Biological changes such as hormonal alterations whether it be via puberty, menopause, eating improper foodstuffs, lack of exercise, stress to have a profound effect on one’s overall emotional, mental and physical conditions and so Rhen is correct however, for any woman to desire to “move on” (as in the male parallel during mid-life crisis to a younger woman especially during his wife’s pregnancy) are examples of short circuiting a commitment to love and family that in turn defies our Creator and Natural Laws of Order. True Christians would call “moving on” a grave sin. The affect this “moving on” has on not only the husband but children is like a pseudo death because the victims of this say “mood swing” tend to not want to remember any of the past related to the family being together as it is too painful. Therefore, having to forget the past is like a death rather than fooling oneself by accepting “the good times” and the fact she is doing what she wants to do for her own selfish feelings while ignoring the devastating effect it has on the rest of the family. IF it were say “55” years ago plus, the vast majority of wives would not have done this and yet there has been this movement simply because she has become Independent financially through a combination of Careers and/or State becoming a former father-like security blanket. Many children who’ve experienced this happening whether it be Mom or Dad doing this, have frowned upon marriage or even shacking up due to the pain they experienced. In short, society should not tolerate women or men doing this any more but how? That’s another story … we can start by pushing Government, Big Corporations and even Educational Institutions away from controlling our lives while letting Natural living and our Creator back in.
Yes, we never married (even if you had married, years ago the State safeguarded the mothers first and foremost by orchestrated new laws ~ that is a couple resided under the same roof for a year the laws that applied to marriage apply to Common Law too) And yes … she did just that. Not 3 months apart she suddenly demanded money saying “my son was entitled to this so“ First, you as parents must Time Share your child as close to 50/50 as possible and by doing so, this court created phoney “Child Support” should have little to do with anything even if one parent makes more than the other. What far too often happens in reality even though most women lecture or preach Equality, is the courts who are interested in filling their pockets ignore feminists “Equality” rant and do a double take on the father (i.e. Paternal side) by first giving him a conventional “every other weekend” or 4 nights per month plus a weekday supper = 18% of the time shared. The courts thus justify the father paying Child Support regardless if he makes more or less than the mother. By applying these 2 factors, Courts fill their pockets due to enough fathers running back to court trying to receive Equality, while mothers get what they want which is more money via Child Support and hog share of their (NOT HERS) Child. The effect this has on children is immeasurably cruel, some say evil. The generation of children going through this (now in our 4th) grow up diverse in their opinions and actions. Some repeat their parents’ pattern, some focus solely on their “Moms” which one hears all the time on TV Shows like American Idol, some but few happen to realize how immoral their upbringing was and pledge not to repeat the pattern. Meanwhile, neither femininity nor other women do anything to help children or biological fathers bond. IF mothers received this treatment, there would be blood in the streets NOT merely because they want their children but the MONEY = “security” plays a huge part. It appears that fathers will never band together in the numbers needed to take back their children too and, even if they do so, the Media stays away from this Social Issue purposely so as to not offend both women viewers who want what THYEY want, and their corporate sponsors who need to sell goods/services to women too especially as their earning power grows. What’s coming down the road is, more males are opting out of even living together let alone having children causing more immigration to keep the population up in order to create jobs. The emotional psychic problems this is having on say females in their 30s and 40s who have not had a child is growing. While this is occurring, Courts do little or nothing to alter this familial Cancer as they experience back-logs. The churches also say nor do nothing because they too don’t wish to offend much of their congregation that are women by suggesting they return to the centuries long wife, mother, home-maker etc, that as of the 1970s was considered a low life unrewarding existence. So my mother and her 6 sisters who had 4+ children were all unfulfilled low lifes. In the flip side, a Career has become everything to many females while men seldom use this word as it is too many of them a means of attracting a woman and providing while so many women say they don’t need a man for this because they’ve become “Independent” which also means “don’t tell me how to think or what to do”…yet, they want males to “man up” and ask me out, pay my way, protect me from potential physical or psychological harm if needed etc as their Check List is all about them = narcissists. Their children have in turn become like them) segway into the next point, if you don’t pay your son, I’m a deadbeat Dad and going to take me to court (naturally she ignores the entire concept of $$ Equality and opportunity for women is just as great as men especially Educated women. The Courts have become her father and husband combined) She’s had her hand out from the beginning (this is why I believe that as soon as dating starts, a young man should not pay her way “Dutch”. They have just as much money and so pay your own way while quit using/abusing like the bar scene where women head out dressed as Tramps with sometimes no money in their pockets and have not intention of paying for a drink. After they leave, they often LOL at the sucker who bought them drinks) Well, I had access to legal aid through a friend at the time and contacted a family lawyer who advised me the exact figure I’d have to pay (which was less than half of what she was claiming our son suddenly needed). I advised her of the amount I’d pay and how I’d obtained the figure. She accepted and aside from an adjustment to account for an increase in her income, it’s been that way ever since (she had to accept this only because a lawyer confirmed the amount on the Charts they utilize. The lawyers will not do fathers any furthers BTW; if they can they will take them to the cleaners especially from my experiences, male lawyers since a female lawyer has something to prove to a male client w.r.t. Equality) What I find hilarious is that for 4 months I was in between jobs and based on the law, she should have paid ME child support (or Spousal Support which BTW, this is rarely paid to a man if ever so they may as well erase this from applying to a man). And not only didn’t, kept asking me for child support during that time, regardless (oh I know; if you made say $30,000 a year and she made $100,000. she would still get that Child Support while having Susieor Johnny the vast majority of the time because #1 priority is HER kind Sir. She looks at you as a $ and sperm. They say not all women are like this which is likely true but doesn’t matter because too many are like this. It is having their cake and eating it too. IF JUDGES ever got off their thrones and ask children IN FRONT OR A MINSITER so we get the truth, what they want…children would say they want both their parents almost always unless one parent has threatened them what to say or bought them off. MONEY is a very powerful persuader especially when children start growing up) Of course, I never asked her for a penny during the time I was unemployed, and was completely transparent about my situation (lest I find myself penalized i.e. lose custody) (yes yes yes … as much as I’m for the family staying together and being fruitful and multiplying, in my mind I’d be hard pressed not to suggest to any young man to try as hard as possible to get a written agreement legalized (called Pre-nupts) for the sake of Insurance one-and-all = mother, father and especially a child IF born. This is fair and square and yet, many young men have said “she won’t stay with me if I suggest this” to which I say, then leave her. I believe that Pre-nupts should become mandatory to save the families from further chaotic separations/divorces. If not, more males especially will discontinue to propagate with each passing year because the benefits of himself and his child too, are trumped by mothers whether she decides out of court or the court decides. Since a baby comes out of the mothers’ womb I can see the extended attachment and so given this, men tend to have children to please more their women however, since women have largely taken over the traditional role as bread winner, what doe this leave for men’s role or being needed? Younger men are catching on to what Baby Boomer men already have experienced thus, avoiding commitment hence focusing on their Jobs while many women focus on their Careers meaning, the genders are battling it out for what Jobs are there. Tell me, did our Creator intend this to happen as part of evolution or are say Bible Thumpers correct? If the Media doesn’t cover this Issue on TV and Radio while not merely online, little will change. Oh BTW, one cannot bleed blood out of a stone and so with young males being outperformed by young women due to being raised by Wonder Women Mothers who can do it all,2 generations of males look at a prospective mate differently from centuries of men, thus “man UP” and “where have all the good $$$$$ men gone”….frustration is seeping in like quicksand taking young people down and so the feminists need to be taken on once and for all Sir. Ironically, some young women are trying to do just that but being drowned out. In closing, I firmly believe that the Modernists cannot and should not live amongst the Traditionalists, geographically speaking … their Value Systems are miles apart and what is happening is the ladder group is losing. A new socio-economical “Declaration of Independence” for traditionalists is needed for their survival.
John – Paragraphs! Please paragraphs.
Seems everyone on here either man or woman have come to same conclusion.
I don’t know, I am a 56 year old man (as you all say could pass for 40) and I know a woman would never be interested in me sexually again. I am in shape, educated, 3 grown kids who do well. An ex who is a good person, but with whom I have nothing in common with.
I have given up on “relationships” and I absolutely abhor the thought of “dating.”
Um…I respectfully disagree with your statement. Willis. I’m 57 and my interest in the physical aspects of relationships has not diminished one iota. I belong to enough singles groups to know that I’m not the only woman in my age group who would like to find a partner.
I do not know why an “in shape, educated” man would have a problem. Such a man would definitely get my attention – and that of many women I know.
I do understand your feelings about dating though, At this stage in life, it seems one needs the patience of Job to navigate those waters.
It is because most middle aged women have lost interest and those that have not, have become Cougars…period.
Willis, learn game. I can see in your self defeatist attitude you don’t have any and have given up. Have you had many relationship failures? Not being mean, just a friendly observation. Dalrock has good advice as does Chateau Heartiste, The Rational Male, Roosh and others. At 56 you can easily be dating and having sex with 30 year olds or younger.
Cail Corishev says:
August 13, 2014 at 12:08 pm
” I have two daughters from my marriage. They come before anyone else in my life.”
Profile after profile says some version of this. I always wonder: do they realize this basically says, “If you meet all my expectations (which at least one previous guy clearly couldn’t) and treat me the way I think I deserve, I might spend some of my free time with you”? I used to think maybe they were trying to signal their mothering qualities, but most of them don’t want to have more kids with a new guy, so he wouldn’t have any reason to care about that. So it’s a warning: don’t expect much from me!
I always want to tell them: Look, we know your kids are a priority and require time and energy. If they weren’t, you would have sold them for medical experiments, and we wouldn’t want to date you anyway. But don’t throw it in our face, like you can’t even wait to meet a guy before you start blowing him off.”
The male equivalent would be putting in your profile: “My mother is my first priority; whenever she calls and needs help with her gutters or her oil changed, I drop everything and run over there. Any woman who wants to be in my life will have to accept that Mommy comes first!”
Agreed completely, Cail. I have thought about this at some length, (My first marriage was to a divorced woman with two daughters that were, ah, severely damaged.) Visualize when a man with no children begins dating a woman with minor children in the house, and he receives unbidden the standard speech about “you know you’ll only ever be the third most important person in my life” (presuming she has two children, in which case she should more accurately say FOURTH most important, thereby including herself”). IMO, the guy should calmly tell her that he has no problem with that, but to keep it all even/equitable/fair, SHE’LL never be higher in his priorities than the third most important person in his life, either. Watch the smoke come from her ears…
(Diabolic laugh of justice appropriate here)
Exactly. There was a post not long ago where some woman said that; that she expects any man worthy of her time to put her first before anything else, basically be at her beck and call, treat her like a queen, and oh, by the way, my kids come first always, and you’ll always be second fiddle. What arrogant, selfish BS! I responded that what if the guy has kids, too? I wouldn’t spend 10 seconds with a woman like that.
Vic > those types are more the rule rather than the exception too. How many so called Mixed Families today do you see where the woman is with a man and HIS biological kids?! The other way around is common and you nailed it with the pecking order. One of the chief reasons these women have another man around is for yet another Income coming into the home. The real issue though lies in Family Courts where lawyers and Judges make money hand-over-fist by ruining fathers and their relationship with their children in so many cases. And, the churches say nothing cuz they don’t want to offend the women in their church turning them away…Government created much of this mess…Corporations now cater to selling goods to women who have tremendous buying power so they too will not risk their profits…as for the Media > well if they are Independent like Limbaugh and others yes they will and have made commentary however, not the major news networks relying on corpoarte sponsors and more and more of their staff members in recent times are Women who would not want to report anything that cut their gender down to size … that leaves new Immigrants to change things since they tend to be living more traditional lifestyles having more children. There is one other option which is our Creator (if it exists) will make the final decision. The over 55 females apparently lose their desire due to decreased hormone production even though it is much easy for them to perform than males over 55 whom need an obvious you know what to perform in contrast to a female. Vic, the attitude of women over decades has changed drastically to the point that literally, a blind man would notice this since he can hear the verbal change from Then compared to Now with such a decline in Grace with a huge increase in RMM (rapid mouth movement) whether ti be assertion or aggression. I’m glad I am not out there dating today.
It is quite obvious to me why women over 55 are single or as you say done with men.
Men are dying off from age 55 onwards. Looked at the widowed (yellow Line) to prove my point. Also divorce is second reason, men been stripped of what little assets they have through divorce courts and not willing to remarry and a lot of old men are driven into poverty by the divorce industry.
If you also look at census data, there are more women than men in older brackets. They have to compete with other women for what men are alive in their age bracket or older. Women tend to marry men who are same age or older than them, therefore they are even less picking of men to choose from.
The reality they will not compete with other women because they will lose friendships as more and more of their friends die off. Also from older generations women do not tend to chase men for companionship, and this same behavior unbroken since they were teenagers, so it is a habit they have not broken since their youth and are very unlikely to change. It was men in their youth who chase them and they expect men to still chase them today. But the problem is Less men to chase them nowadays makes life more lonely for them, so they depend on their offspring (if still on speaking terms) and what friends that are still alive for companionship.
DONAL > I take it you are male but not 100% sure without the D at the end of Donal; in any case, pls allow me to review what you posted today because you make some excellent truthful factual points hence, I believe you are male but hoping you are female with a sound mind …. “It is quite obvious to me why women over 55 are single or as you say done with men…men are dying off from age 55 onwards” that’s a little young to start dying off so I’d say more like 60 to 65? Anyway, I get your point and next > “Looked at the widowed (yellow Line) to prove my point” oh, I see and so you may be more accurate than I thought however, I don’t understand why males would be dying off starting that soon? Is their work environment that bad? Stress too? “Also divorce is second reason as men have been stripped of what little assets they have through divorce courts and not willing to remarry and a lot of older men are driven into poverty by the divorce industry” OMG bless you for sharing this because this is exactly what has been happening since the early 70s in DROVES Donal. The decades of stresses mentally, emotionally, and financially takes it toll on the physical body yet IF a father can look to the spiritual side of connections with all people through the creator plus get close to nature as in the outdoors, this can compensate somewhat for the stressful burdens “If you also look at census data, there are more women than men in older brackets” that has always been the case and I think it is because of the different lifestyles the genders live Donal. As an example, most jobs or careers men are not crazy about which brings on stress and, fathers don’t receive as much love, respect and appreciation from the rest of the family as mothers do. They are expected to get up and leave the house and bring in money & therefore are taken more for granted plus, the work environment is less friendly and loving than ‘there’s no place like home’. Having done a 3.5 year stint as Mr. Mom with our son when he was 1 to 4.5 it was the most wonderful time of my life albeit, I did work weekends evenings. It also was the cause of breaking up our marriage because she had double standards AND we had a beautiful waterfront home “They have to compete with other women for what men are alive in their age bracket or older” to some extent this is so but older women tend not to want a man so for those who do the competition is less. “Women tend to marry men who are same age or older than them, therefore they are even less picking of men to choose from” yes but, that applied more say 20 years ago but Donal, the fact that many middle aged women IF you check Dating Sites look for men exactly their age OR much MUCH younger as in Cougars, this makes it even more difficult for them to get a match. This may change though as women increase their income more and more making themselves more attractive to YOUNGER men who do not have as great an income. “The reality they will not compete with other women because they will lose friendships as more and more of their friends die off” well women bond with each other at all ages better than men do, making I think the loneliest people of all, the single older man. “Also from older generations women do not tend to chase men for companionship, and this same behavior unbroken since they were teenagers, so it is a habit they have not broken since their youth and are very unlikely to change” I agree totally but again, so many men have been burned in settlements either in court or out of court that their finances ain’t the best plus they fear and/or mistrust relationships. Now their sons and Grandsons feel the same “It was men in their youth who chase them and they expect men to still chase them today but the problem is Less men to chase them nowadays makes life more lonely for them,” not just less man so much as men who will take the risk Donal “so they depend on their offspring (if still on speaking terms)” from what I hear, due to so many mothers alienating or taking advantage of fathers, once the children get old enough yes, they can turn against the mother “and what friends that are still alive for companionship” … again, the plight of mothers or women during adulthood is less negative than for males especially IF a child is born. The risk factor goes up. ~ 80% of breakups it is the female leaving the male and, if taken to court she wins ~85 to 90% of the time which is remote from Equality. When one parent loses, so does the child(ren) but Courts are so corrupted by making tons of $$$$ plus bias and it will never change. What is happening is younger males more and more are not even shacking up and, their income level is eroding away compared to females. In 1968, the average American male’s income was ~ $38,000 AND $600. MORE THAN TODAY’S AVERGAE FOR MEN. This was on Lou Dobbs show.
John Thomspon,
Donal is the correct name and is a male name, it is Irish for Daniel, Donald is the Scottish name for Daniel.
I know about all the effects that men have to deal with over many different generations by women, as the younger generations people have more resources and they are much more selfish and more ignorant and arrogance and definitely more narcissistic, both men and women. I began to notice in my teen years that women from older generations who grew up in homes where there was no running water had far more respect for others, for they knew real destitution. They saw rich women who looked down on them, who made them feel shame.
Thankfully, I knew great women in my life (Grandmothers and much of their friends here in Ireland which have different attitudes that the older generation in the US and the latest generation of women here in Western Europe). Divorce is a recent phenomena in Ireland legal in the 90’s, so people investigate potential partners more before going into marriage which is not emotional love based to begin with, which is true for my grandmothers situation and they did grow to love their husbands and they respected their vows, though ill and health, richer or poorer, etc. My mother generation (60 & early 70’s getting hitch) despite knowing – (now retiring), which marriage was lust inspired rather than respect what marriage was meant to be about. Today women, It is all now about the dreaming of the fairytale wedding and bagging that rich guy or some sucker that they can change to what they want and lose the guy they claim they fell in love with. It is the way society have gone. I see it all over TV, and the internet, It is me, me, me, all me, narcissistic and entailment attitude. “I am weak”, “How dare you” attitude and threats when they do not get what they selfishly want, in many young females. Many of them are willing to rat out to tell lies on their so call friends to get ahead.
Much of the negative traits, I receive in my life is from women, especially growing up, most of which was from my mother and sisters and more women in my life, who believed in feminists ideologies and dogma of oppression, and such as female teachers and other female students, and abuse because of their feeling or anything they imagine of some slight, to punish with. They love play the martyr card and very love love to humiliate, degrade and abuse, and think nothing of responsibility of their behaviors and actions.
Of all the dates I have with women, they failed miserable to meet the very high standards they claim they want in their men. They get so frustrated with me, I keep saying to them “NO” mean “NO” and I do not want a second date. Very few of them get to any reasonable time. One of them wanted me to stop seeing my grandmother who was in hospital. She did not know my grandmother, but she was testing me for control. I told her she failed the test and I said goodbye.
In my experience, Feminists were the worst when it comes to dating. They are very insecure in themselves as they play the victim car and princess attitude. They not only have double standards they have moving goal posts like my mother did for me. They make scoring a goal impossible, even for the best of men. They let their negative emotions get the better of them and act out on it and play the victim hood card to abuse others. Most women out there have no clue about relationships (despite talking so much about it) and end up with terrible guys who abuse them for sex.
Getting sex, it is easy and dangerous because of the implications, from STD’S and women who are looking to get pregnant and financial income via the sex route. There are feminists groups in trying to get rid of herpes as a STD’s because it is very common in women who have STDs. I read a report that far more women have herpes than men. Herpes is transmitted by sex and by kissing in the gential areas and passing that to others. Herpes is a leading cause of mouth cancers.
I keep hearing about report that females have higher number of STD’s than men, which goes against the belief that it is men only who are sex driven. Even taken into account men not going for treatment, then men will be hit later in life with the explosion dire STD effecting their health and dying from it. Yet I do not see this in the Statics. It pointed to what I have seen over the years. The women flock and give up easy to men who are rich, status, pop stars and then get infected. The hot guy who first got it from a woman or repeatably got it from a number of women and passed it on to another. He certainty did not get it first, he had to receive from a women and vica versa.
If you look at HIV which is transmitted mainly by sex. It is mostly women who are infected, not men but women.
Africa: http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2011/gender-based-violence-hiv.aspx
Australia: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/26/more-young-australian-women-contract-hiv-on-overseas-trips-counsellors
“Many of my friends are well educated and yet they will travel overseas and have unprotected sex, and only freak out when they’re back in Australia,” she said.” – There are not so smart when it came to sex. Yet I rarely hear this about Australian Heterosexual males.
Now look at US 2009 figures. http://healthcareguild.com/presentations_files/CDC%20FastFacts-MSM-FINAL508COMP.pdf
Look at Homosexual (MSM) who do not have sex with women have the highest rate of infection. White heterosexual men do not figure on the list. Of Heterosexual people, Black women 2.2 times the rate of Black heterosexual males, then white females and Hispanic females, and white and Hispanics males are less than half of females judging by the graph, which proves that more females have much more sex than males.
These figures tell me that men are not interested in sex as women are. Very few men have most of the sex with a wide variety of women.
Now getting a sane reliable, dependable, responsible, respectful, kind heart woman is very difficult. It is easy for women to say they are reliable and dependable until the dung hit the fan, then many of them are nowhere to be seen or often stamp on it to make it worst. My grandmother generation would help to clean it up. I would have a better time in finding a yeti than the type of women I am looking for in a partner, so much that I have not gone out on dates for years and refuse some dates due to the poor quality of the women asking and they have the sexy body and a house, but attitude stinks. When I told my grandmother she laugh, and says well done as she knew the woman. Most of the time it always questions what do I have in resources such as house, they check out my car, my clothes, how much money i am willing to spend, never about my personality. Those are single dates that I never ask for a second. When I was dating I got it down to a fine art, I ask to meet up for drinks instead and let the conversation go from there. Dinner I reserve on date two. Usually some of the women are looking for me to say where will date number two will be. I usually say date number one must finish first.
Nowadays, the Laws have become more dangerous and temptation for women to dump and financial destroy their husband is huge nowadays. The risk are far higher now for men and it is turning men away from women, especially when they see men they know, ended up poor by been financially and emotionally destroyed.
When I look for reasons why men die off first that is not women related.
Men are dying off earlier because of many health reasons outside of accidents.
Heart Attacks is one and it a major incidence of death of men for the last 30 years in my area of men from age 40+ onwards, some of it is hereditary and others the poor lifestyle, heavy drinking and poor eating habits combine with not good exercise.
Prostate cancer is another leading cause of early death for men and it takes more men that breast cancer, because of men not seeing the signs of ill heath due to cancer, due to the hidden nature of the prostate until it is too late. They just feel tiredness and pain (some believe it because of stiffness) and associated that to old age.
Lung Cancer and other smoking illness as more older men than women smoked in their generations and smoked heavier than women over the decades and die younger with complications with other illness.
Obesity and lack of activity in older age is another reason, why men fall prey to ill health to conditions that leads to death. Men in farming background hand over the farm to the next generations and pull out of the work only help part time and less and less as the years goes on.
Men who are used to hard physical working suddenly put in pounds of fat, because they never adjusted their diet to compete for the lack of activity. I have see this too many times, similar to sports stars putting on weight after they retire from the sport they are competing in.
Before getting to the the older generation and the narrowing of the gender gap:
Men tend to be out door more and in more active in dangerous work and much higher risk more than females. Look at farming. How many women do you know for the last several decades are in farming? There are far too many farmers dying in farm accidents. My Grandmother generation women did many light chores in safe shelter area, the generation before them had more physical chores with husbandry, before farming became more prosperity to earn a full wage for the family and the men had to look for work elsewhere. Then look at mining, and defense forces -especially in war times, transport of daily supplies and equipment between business where men get into accidents, construction Sites, basically any field which requires loads of work hours and heavy physical work where most women actively avoid.
When I look at industries where women are subjected to industry that causes of ill health, there are far less than males dangerous jobs over the past few decades, which is why I have far more respect for older generations of men and to women who respect that. Men have always sacrifice themselves in the past for their families and that is been denied to them by feminists, by state, Courts and other women who are looking to get ahead at the expense of others, who just see men as money earners for them to plunder.
In the US I look at men lives after the Military, More and more men are committing suicide in recent times, due to PTSD and lack of supports after been discharge. Look at the Veterans Veterans Affairs for health and the scandal of manipulate figures and have waiting list for waiting list. How many veterans over the last few decades die, because of it due to lack of access to treatments. We will never know the real figure, but I have deep suspicions that they are hiding a massive figure through manipulations to make their figures look good.
If you look at the dating market for women and look at supply and demand, women loose out on the older brackets as they age because of lack of supply of men for their age group. There is simply not enough men and older women know it. Women win in the younger age brackets (18+) because there are far more males born than females and males start dying off from an earlier age before females.
So Only rich women, who chase after younger men or Cougars are few and far between and not enough of them to make a dent in the figures. Most men are attracted to youthful women due to her ability to conceive, an physical attraction to get a male mate. This has been proven over and over again, and to older women, it dismays many, who in turn are resentful because of it especially the older women get. I know of very few women who age beautifully the older they got and never had a face lift. Those few woman are often kind heart and shy and happily married.
There is very few men who are attracted to older women. Yes you get the male gold diggers out there who are very vane or those who wants a mammy type figure to look after them. In reality they are toy boys to show off to their peers. I would not call it true love. A very tiny fraction maybe true love. Love or lust of money is the real attraction for these toy boys. I am not complaining , if both parties are accept this, then I do not have a problem with it.
As Soon as the younger man or toy boy loose his figure (Muscles and youth) he is dispense off and the hunt for another ensues once another toy boy comes into play. The biggest gap I know of is where the wife is older than her man is approx 12 years. That rare in itself and I do not believe it true love as she mistreats him and mocks him publicly and she says it good fun, especially when other women are around. I suspect she want to deter other women from him so they will not take him from her, as he is easily a willing doormat at her very command. That was 10+ years ago, I heard a rumor recent years, that he left her and they could not have children due to her inability to conceive. I also heard that he found a better woman and had a child with her.
My husband and my marriage has been over a little over a year after he walked out and feel that I want to start dating again. I keep my figure up, weigh 106 lbs, 5’3″ and put on my makeup and dress appropriately for my age of 57.
*But I have tried the “new type of dating” since I haven’t dated since 1979 and married in 1980, so I have signed up on 5 dating sites, some free, most not -JDate since I am Jewish, Match, OurTime for those over 50, OKCupid wihich is free and not Zoosk, which I am thinking I won’t sign up for a paid subscription.
Yes, I am lonely, and do love men, even though my husband hurt me deeply. But, when I look at the profile photos of the men on these dating sites, they turn my stomach, and feel these men have no idea just how bad they look, older than their years on their profile, fat, scruffy, and look like they have been road hard, put away wet, and don’t have a clue that most women who are my age, will not find them the least bit attractive, surely not to date. Most just look like they are narcissists, and self centered, and think us women want to go out with a fish, or boat or souped up car, because that is what these guys pose with and many don’t even smile on their profiles. Are their teeth rotten or do they just hate life? Not sure about any of this.
What I do know is I have more self esteem and want anyone I date to clean up their act too. These men, aver the age of 50, want us women to look good, even thin and sexy, but do they? Nope.
If you don’t believe me about these dating sites.sign up for one or two, create a profile, of yourself, and then sit back and watch and wait to see who sends you a wink or a message. These men are also rude, crude and disrespectful of women, and think that we are devoid of having a brain, or carrying on a conversation. To even try and screen out some of the men that are NOT a fit for me at all, I put in my profile that I love the theater, the ballet, the arts, as most men on these dating sites wouldn’t know what a tutu is, or who Picasso is. LOL Too bad it’s so pathetic:(
DEBORAH you have come here to either vent like many do or maybe you’d like a response so I will share one > “my husband and my marriage has been over a little over a year after he walked out and feel that I want to start dating again” statistic show that 75 to 85 % of the time it is the wife who leaves, just for the record. I am part of this stat at the most unexpected time when finances could not have been better however that was one huge piece of the puzzle I did not see coming albeit, this is about you “I keep my figure up, weigh 106 lbs, 5’3″ and put on my makeup and dress appropriately for my age of 57″ all of that sounds healthy. May I add, it is very rare to find a middle aged woman your height to be slim.
*But I have tried the new type of dating since I haven’t dated since 1979 and married in 1980” and it will be an experience for sure but IF a woman is more attractive than most she will receive plenty of attention from many different males “so I have signed up on 5 dating sites, some free, most not -JDate since I am Jewish, Match, OurTime for those over 50, OKCupid wihich is free and not Zoosk, which I am thinking I won’t sign up for a paid subscription” you certainly are making a gallant attempt; more than most people do
“Yes I am lonely” as many people are so this is normal “and do love men” well this is not as normal or at least it is rarely shared and so you will receive lots of attention “even though my husband hurt me deeply” it is an awful feeling yes “but, when I look at the profile photos of the men on these dating sites they turn my stomach, and feel these men have no idea just how bad they look, older than their years on their profile, fat, scruffy, and look like they have been road hard, put away wet, and don’t have a clue that most women who are my age, will not find them the least bit attractive surely not to date” okay halt for a moment please; Deborah surely amongst hundreds maybe into the thousands there are some decent looking men? And is looks so prominent? “most just look like they are narcissists, and self centered” Deborah, how can you judge such an insulting accusation simply by looking at the cover of so many books? is sounds like you really only want to go on these sites to take your being hurt by your husband out on men. You did say you love men but love goes beyond the appearance of the opposite sex “and think us women want to go out with a fish” Deb, this is not about US the sisterhood but about only you looking for a potential close bond in communicating to love is it not? How do you know what is inside the cover until you meet or talk to a few of them? “or boat or souped up car” well boating and fishing are pretty natural outings or, a souped up car has always attracted women since someone has to pick up the other to go on dates “because that is what these guys pose with and many don’t even smile on their profiles” now that is a mistake they make so for the MANY pass them by as I would too “are their teeth rotten or do they just hate life?” you know, you sound very insulting so maybe you should sit back and wonder why what happened happened or better still, ask him “not sure about any of this” ease off on the gas Deborah is what I would do and take things with an open heart by starting with the most appealing to you and go from there. Don’t forget that every day or at least week new men come into these sights too. I tried a site twice a year apart for ~ 6 weeks first time then 4 weeks the second time and found some common denominators I could not change so I didn’t try to; just left the site never to return “what I do know is I have more self esteem and want anyone I date to clean up their act too” this is one of those common denominators Deborah “these men, over the age of 50, want us women to look good, even thin and sexy, but do they? Nope” you won’t get to first base with what you just wrote in your heart regardless of how you look. Although, you are not the exception but the rule because I experienced this on the site I ventured to. It was unbelievable even though I look much younger than my years, athletic, actually attract women MUCH MUCH younger than myself but would not go there so why would I not re-appear in a dating site? The check list especially amongst the more attractive women is something else to deal with not to mention the attitude is one of being there just so they can say NO to lots of men. And they are not hesitating making demands in their profiles even before they have met these strangers. Extremely rude. Most also expect not one bit of drama or baggage and want to travel. How narcissistic is that? I must share that many of these men will have already been through incredibly painful divorces where the courts have forced them to pay child support for year even if they make less than their former wives, yet see their children too far less often. How intrusive and damaging is that to not only the father but the paternal side not to forget the children; meanwhile, many of the women may still have children with them or are empty nested, will retire in a few years so are thinking of taking the money they have saved from different sources and Travel while families are in turmoil and millions of people don’t know where their next meal will come from? “If you don’t believe me about these dating sites.sign up for one or two, create a profile of yourself, and then sit back and watch and wait to see who sends you a wink or a message” and Deborah, sorry but it is unbelievable how many ladies even in their 40s that say they are slim when they are really many pounds over weight too “these men are also rude, crude and disrespectful of women and think that we are devoid of having a brain or carrying on a conversation” you have become a male hater and I have never said this to anyone woman online but wow, you are so caustic. You are better off meeting someone where you enjoy hobbies, going up to him, and engaging in conversation then ask him for a coffee or something. If he turns you down, then try this again with someone you are attracted to. It is called Womaning Up = Man Up if there is such as thing as Equality. To be rejected is a painful thing but males have had to accept this treatment a lot in recent decades “to even try and screen out some of the men that are NOT a fit for me at all, I put in my profile that I love the theater, the ballet, the arts, as most men on these dating sites wouldn’t know what a tutu is, or who Picasso is” oh yes just as I figured, Deborah is so sophisticated yet know nada about being a natural human being. Try getting out of that world of so called Urban Arts and climb a mountain, cast a fishing rod into a beautiful stream, eat the trout by making a campfire “LOL” another insult laughing at men who may love rural REAL living rather than being amongst a bunch of phoneys at an Opera House or Art Gallery. I have been there trust me. I was to sent to an Opera School with my booming tenor voice but declined stating I could not possibly enjoy this nor ballet … singing the Crooners’ music yes, or watching Fred and Cyd Charisse oh yes. Why not consider moving to Vienna? I was once in Austria-Suisse and I believe you’d love it there “too bad it’s so pathetic:(” what is really pathetic and sad is your taking not being so much hurt by your X but now almost hatred out on men you won’t even give a chance. Now you may say, well you didn’t find anyone when you entered a site. I did however go out with 2 different women and had correspondences with certain others even though they like you criticized but not close to what you have. This is your choice so we all make our bed and lie in it. I’d suggest you turn over a new leaf or you will only attract a masochist. BTW, I didn’t enjoy typing this but could not help myself and you need to hear the truth. I do wish you well but need to reassess your approach…we all do in various amounts, even married people.
John – Paragraphs, please paragraphs. Also a question: Is 57 middle aged? I thought 57 was past middle age.
Deborah – It totally sucks that your husband left. Is there any chance that he might be willing to work it out with you? Are there any changes you could make that might get him to reconsider?
Paragraphs…I’ll try and remember. 57 is middle aged and so Deborah is MAged.
There it is men; Deborah has laid out why you can’t get laid: you’re not attractive enough for a fifty-seven year old divorcee – none of you! not even the combined males of five dating-sites. Do not think however that to make up for your lack of physical attractiveness that you can cajole her with displays of conspicuous purchases – i.e. wealth – she’s seen through that and knows your game, which is why posing next to your boat or car will do nothing to impress her. What you need to do is to pose beside a portrait by Picasso, or perhaps wearing a Tutu. She wants her men to look good so clearly what she really wants is a Gay Man.
“wearing a Tutu” .. How? I doubt I could get the little bugger to fit over my head.
Although nothing bespeaks ‘metrosexual liberal’ so much as a dwarf black archbishop somewhere about one’s apparel. Deborah would be gagging for it, sooooo sophisticated.
Pingback: The more meager a woman’s choices, the more attractive she must be. | Dalrock
Men in their 50’s on dating sites are a self-selected sub-set.
The healthy, in-shape, smiling men in their 50s are living their lives, not needy and submitting themselves to such “shopping”. Based on reported activity (always a bit statistically suspect), if they are looking for females it is more likely their desired age-range is 18-35, and they are using Tinder or a sugar-daddy site.
The original post demonstrates most folks are not looking to re-marry once they are in their 50s. So, the question becomes what ARE they looking to find? Looks, vigor, fun, and perhaps sexual congress. If I was widowed, I would NOT be in the market for someone who wants to do the ‘arts’. In common parlance, that would be a auto-swipe left.
I am 56, in very good shape, the only thing I lack is self-confidence sometimes and female companionship. I would love to be in a loving sexual relationship, but I am not looking for just sex. Wow who would at our age? I want a woman who can talk about something other than herself or her family. I quit dating sites. More than half of the profiles start out, my children come first and that is the most important part of my life. Wrong way to put things. many say you must love this or that activity. State your favorite activities yes but to demand you must be this or that is a bit much. I’ve been incredibly lonely for some time and for most men we need more than our kids or grand kids (don’t have any yet) activities to keep us stimulated in life.
OPUS and DEBORAH … from 1943, here’s a great Hit Record from the classy days gone by > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV9LhjTr5Bc > from here-on-in your theme song “OPUS” LMAO; Tommy Dorsey was outstanding as were all the Big Band Swing performers back then and BTW, I am a musical historian and singer. And, IF you want to see a 2011 rendition just type in the title as it is also VERY well done…now, let’s review Opus’ commentary …. “There it is men; Deborah has laid out why you can’t get laid” ooooo what a pun “you’re not attractive enough for a fifty-seven year old divorcee – none of you!” well…in all fairness and I am sure Debbie would truly in her mind agree, it is outlandish to > “not even the combined males of five dating-sites” but she just started Opus. Once she gets in the Swing of things like Opus 1, I am sure a George Clooney or a Dustin Hoffman will appear to sweep her off her “Tootsies” “Do not think however that to make up for your lack of physical attractiveness that you can cajole her with displays of conspicuous purchases – i.e. wealth – she’s seen through that and knows your game, which is why posing next to your boat or car will do nothing to impress her” well there is a 3rd strike awaiting the fellows…strike 1 was not HOT enough; strike 2 you covered Sir Opus, and strike 3 hmm…don’t spread the word but I was told today I actually look Jewish LOL, even though I am first Welsh, second Irish, third Scottish and the final 1/8th Limey “What you need to do is to pose beside a portrait by Picasso, or perhaps wearing a Tutu” how about an Ecuadorian Otovalo hand knit llama sweater supported by a Jimmy Cagney fedora with User Name >>> YOU DIRTY RAT ! “She wants her men to look good so clearly what she really wants is a Gay Man” … California Here I Come produced and sung by Rock Hudson for the cinematography “Pillow Talk”
Now BRUCE WILLIS > “I am 56 in very good shape, the only thing I lack is self-confidence (x) sometimes and female companionship (Y)” sheesh Bruce, do you think the former (x) is derived from the latter (Y) as in Y = f(x)? It use to be eons ago but highly in question now, don’t you think? “I would love to be in a loving sexual relationship, but I am not looking for just sex. Wow who would at our age?” absolutely correct unless IN your 50s you happen to latch on to a female in her 20s in which case there would be little to talk about. I could have been in that position many times recently but would NOT go there “I want a woman who can talk about something other than herself or her family” no kidding “I quit dating sites. More than half of the profiles start out, my children come first and that is the most important part of my life” and WILLIS, the little time I spent there I noticed this too, plus I WANT TO TRAVEL and WON”T SETTLE for ……. how outrageous ignorant declaring the pecking order from the outset. They are among the droves that screwed the former husbands in court making their lives and kids a living hell. Not every woman but tons of them out there “Wrong way to put things. Many say you must love this or that activity” now that is not such a bad thing to say though Willis. For example, I am obsessed with music of certain genres. I could not be with a lady who loved music but totally opposite to my style because we’d drive each other nuts. If she liked Rap. Heavy Metal, and C/W I would climb the walls! “State your favorite activities yes but to demand you must be this or that is a bit much” oh I see, the wording is bossy as if to say…this is the way it is, like it or lump it. I don’t know if males do the same in their profiles because when I was on a site I never looked at a man’s profile “I’ve been incredibly lonely for some time and for most men we need more than our kids or grand kids (don’t have any yet) activities to keep us stimulated in life” but Willis, so many men don’t even have their kids or if they do it is like they are merely visiting. I have found males tend to enjoy talking about the following topics: Females, employment, current affairs, sports, technologies, beverages and cuisines, nature, and religions (in no rank order)
I think I read you comment of “menopause is a bitch” correctly, and, all women go through menopause… do the math.
I went back and read quite a few posts and must say the men have their stuff together. There are some meaningful posts by sensible/non feminist women. My experience of late (the last 5 years) was that I met a woman who had a broken down sailboat and told me she wanted to go cruising. I met her on line. Long story short… worked my butt off for 2.5 years restoring it went cruising for a few months. She tried to steal the boat. Lied about what she was doing when confronted with “what are you doing?” Continued to lie and deceive me. I ran her off. She became the alcoholic slut of Boot Key harbor. Yet I am the bad guy. Did some research and realized she was a narcissist with adhd and was a compulsive liar. I was blinded by love and the desire to have a partner to go sailing with. MORAL: If it doesn’t seem right, trust your gut and dump the crazy as no amount of trying will make it better. And one final analogy, if you have spoiled milk, putting it back into the refrigerator will not make it better.
JDG says:
October 19, 2014 at 6:36 pm
John – Paragraphs, please paragraphs. Also a question: Is 57 middle aged? I thought 57 was past middle age.”
Agreed 101%, John needs to start using paragraphs like Obama needs a one-way ticket back to Kenya.
57 = middle aged?!? How many people do you know who are 114? AARP starts sending out “PLEEZ join us!!!!” letters at age 55. Try more like 3/4-aged.
Luke,
Due to the fact that we are indeed living much longer, the medical definition of middle age has been officially extended to at least age 60, and in many instances to age 65. The downside of this development is that it has given license to boost the retirement age. Many of us will be unable to retire with full benefits before age 70.
Of course this does nothing to change the social definitions of age. Many men believe that women hit middle age and lose all desirablility once they pass their 30th birthday.
“Many men believe that women hit middle age and lose
all desirablilitycredible fertility once they pass their 30th birthday.”. FTFYMen do not.
Attraction is even now based around fairly crude primate mating cues, for either sex.
Eff-ay-see-tee fact.
I can probably put women up up the duff by simply sneezing too hard in their vicinity, and I’m even older than friend john here. Definitely not middle-aged, but not a coffin-dodger, yet.
new2redpill says:
November 1, 2014 at 7:48 am
“Of course this does nothing to change the social definitions of age. Many men believe that women hit middle age and lose all desirablility once they pass their 30th birthday.”
Not exactly, N2RP.
First, a man who wants a large family should steer clear of a woman who is 30 or older, if he believes he has any chance to find a younger wife. For a man who wants even one child, the odds of getting that drop as a woman passes age 27, and plummet past early 30s.
Second, there just isn’t a remotely sufficient reason for men to marry women of any age now, unless they both want children with a particular woman, and believe they have a good chance of achieving that. (Even for highly religious men who believe that they must be married to have sex, if children aren’t both desired and likely, IMO they are best off just suffering in celibacy over marrying.)
Put those together, and yes, marriage is increasingly out for women much past 30. LTRs or shorter, NP if she’s remotely attractive, pleasant, and doesn’t play games with giving her BF
enough sex of the type he needs.
Now, I married a woman much older than that, but it’s an unusual deal.. First, she agreed to have kids with me via egg donors/gestational surrogacy, and 2) certain, ah problems common to older women have certainly reared their head. So, for men with 90K+ incomes who want children, I would still advise them to go for donor/surrogacy, and not marry, or if they do, not to have children with that woman. For less well-off men who wish to be fathers, finding an American woman to roll the dice with or expatting are about it.
Luke, I simply forgot to create paragraphs but tell me, why do you start practically every sentence with a new paragraph when the structural reason that defines paragraphs is to ONLY start a new one when you begin a new thought or point? So actually, since this entire blog is based on one theme we call could just forget using paragraphs. Some ppl have a hard time reading line to line due to problems with eye-sight while many have a severe case of Attention DD then use this to sarcastically insult the target person to deflect their own shortcomings. I have read tons of scripts without paragraphs while FOCUSING on the substantial content rather than knit-picking about paragraphs SO Luke, I only need one person to remind me of paragraphs.
What amazes me is how many males claim they are soooo superior intellectually to women because of their supposedly cool, calm, collective approach to Resolving problems whilst either having or showing no feelings nor caring less about anyone but themselves.
As one with 3 brothers, I would not have said this 10 years ago but since January of 2006 I have seen other sides of my own gender that put them in the same league as the radical feminists they deplore as I do. It doesn’t take a keen eye or ear to perceive that fault lies on both sides.
Luke,
Good luck with convincing Christian men that celibacy for life is the best way to go. Not seeing that happening as the predominant movement in my church. I suspect that’s pretty much the same in many fellowships. They do not share your aversion or line of reasoning. They want to get married and have all the benefits they see in the lives of the couples in the fellowship.
The man I have been seeing is very much interested in marriage. He is not alone in wanting it – there are many men in this particular age bracket who desire marriage. They tend to be men who were in long term marriages and enjoyed that state. I was also in a long term marriage and enjoyed being there. There are men and women who actually think that marriage is still a good idea.
Call us crazy…but we want to be happy and we believe that Dalrock is not the only man on this Earth who is capable of being happily married.
Luke > new paragraph and entry w.r.t to “Obama and Kenya”…I have heard as many have who do follow the news that he is of this country’s origin and ha a brother over there whom he doesn’t make known and is poor. If this is what you are referring to, there is another example of how MALES can behave. If this is so, he likely doesn’t want to shed light to this fact.
Consequently, if I were American I would not support him overall policy-wise or otherwise and yet I would not want to be in his shoes. He has aged a great deal being President of a declining culture since the dawn of Sex, Drugs and Rock’n Roll PLUS Hollywood’s poison. Where does a President start with the mess south of the 49th parallel where feminism reigns too just like in Western European countries and Canada, Australia while growing elsewhere too?
Nature will take its course is thee only answer I can come up with and Mother Nature is not happy with the status quo. IF government and their services = Careers we once upon a time did not need were alleviated, this would be a start in the right direction in getting back on track to normality.
Hiring for example, would be based on Merit in the dominating Private Sector thus excluding more women in the workforce and subsequently shedding a new light on being wives and mothers again BUT, what percentage of males really want this now so late in the game as they have gotten use to their single Moms being Wonder Women semingly doing it all?
Dear peeps:
The manosphere is full of lots of claims that are based in realtalk, but have been exaggerated way past their usefulness. Lots of people on such blogs are going through the “Fuck you Mom!” phase, or have been burned by their ex-wife, etc. so this is understandable. Many others are just generally angry at life, and find such fora a comfortable place to vent their spleen (they’re less angry at women than just generally pissed off, in other words). That exists on Dalrock to a much lesser extent than other places, by the way. It’s why I read this one, and not those others.
I think that the lesson to be learned from the extremist “masculist” types is similar to the one we can learn from radical feminists. People who are stuck on the all-or-nothing, no-gray-area treadmill tend to be fairly unhappy. The point is to try and get out of this mindset.
This is a normal phase for people to go through after something traumatic (a divorce, for example). Most of the women that go to those feminist support groups and talk about how all men should be mass-murdered aren’t really serious. They’re pissed off temporarily (maybe husband started banging his secretary or something). Eventually they get this out of their system and move on to enjoying life again. I think in many cases this plays out on our side too. We should listen to people who are hurting, but also encourage people to return to life.
Boxer
@new2redpill, re: living longer.
I think it’s some combination of me getting older and my “fetish” (wife) getting older, but even though as I age I’m not finding young women less attractive than old women, I keeping finding old women more and more attractive than ever. In fact, I believe this to be a fine indication that I am not done with women: my age standards are *less*: I’m *less* picky.
I can be, and have been, highly aroused by many women older than 55. If it ever got to the point that I could only be turned on by a 23 yr old, and I needed medical assistance and a heavy-lift crane to ready myself, I would seriously consider that the problem is me. Similarly, if an old woman is turned off by old men (even if she is still being catcalled by younger men), that *is* a sign that she has libido problems.
(I think it’s only my comments on recent articles that I got blowback on in real life from a few months ago. I warily post this, testing to see if my robostalker reacts.)
New,
Good luck with convincing Christian men that celibacy for life is the best way to go.
It is not, unless you are devoting your life exclusively to Christian ministry. It certainly is not just to live your life your own way.
I can see why it would be desirable, but the Scriptures give only one reason for living a lifetime of celibacy, and even that is limited to a few, not most.
John –
Some ppl have a hard time reading line to line due to problems with eye-sight while many have a severe case of Attention DD then use this to sarcastically insult the target person to deflect their own shortcomings.
No insult or sarcasm intended here. I have no problem reading something on paper with out the paragraphs, but on a computer screen it’s a guaranteed headache. Even if some of us do have Attention DD, how about some consideration for the handicapped?
As one with 3 brothers, I would not have said this 10 years ago but since January of 2006 I have seen other sides of my own gender that put them in the same league as the radical feminists they deplore as I do.
Yes the manginas are multiplying. Single motherhood has been on the rise for decades and now is at an all time high. Coincidence?
@ Boxer
“I think that the lesson to be learned from the extremist “masculist” types is similar to the one we can learn from radical feminists. People who are stuck on the all-or-nothing, no-gray-area treadmill tend to be fairly unhappy. The point is to try and get out of this mindset.”
I came to realize this truth very quickly after accidentally landing in the manosphere. It is the point that 99% of women who land here fail to understand. They waste time trying to take down the men who are here, never realizing the good that comes from having a place like this to receive support.
I was really fortunate in that the place I landed during my “pissed off after divorce” period was a divorce support website that included both men and women rather than a radical feminist site. Since I saw the pain that both sides suffered, I never went through a time of generalizing to all men. I realized very quickly that my ex was a lying, cheating horse’s hind end, but that was just him – not every single person with a Y chromosome.
I listen to everything that goes on here but try to restrain myself from interfering with the process taking place because men REALLY NEED a place to vent their spleen without interference. There aren’t many places left that encourage men to be men. I try to comment only to provide balance when necessary – just tor remind once in a while that there are still women out there who are not interested in castrating men or in wearing their pants instead of letting them take the role God meant for them.
Also – I am thankful for what I have learned here in the last couple of years. It has helped me to understand how much the voices of women who do oppose the status quo need to be raised.
Where does a President start with the mess south of the 49th parallel where feminism reigns too just like in Western European countries and Canada, Australia while growing elsewhere too?
Our current president is not only a product of and proponent for feminism (sexual decadence and all), he is the epitome of the male feminist.
As one with 3 brothers, I would not have said this 10 years ago but since January of 2006 I have seen other sides of my own gender that put them in the same league as the radical feminists they deplore as I do.
Sorry. I guess I misunderstood this the 1st time around. Boxer’s comment set me straight. I think what John is seeing is a backlash of said feminism. And John, it’s not just extreme feminism that is bad. ALL feminism is bad. From suffrage to “destroy all men”, ALL of it is bad.
1) John, you’re the only one that’s complained about my punctuation, and only doing so after I’ve chimed in that you missed class the day they taught Paragraphing 101. The converse is not true.
Methinks you need to be listening much more than talking WRT how to do paragraphing.
2) N2RP, re celibacy for Christian men: for the most part, that’s where they are til Churchian women hit the wall after their 15 years on the carousel, and again where they’ll end up after she frivorces them. The primary difference between lifelong celibacy for them and this more usual pattern is that they’ll be impoverished after having their children painfully torn from them (and probably raised much worse than if those Christian men had been allowed to remain fathers to their children). A few years of break from a lifetime of celibacy is hardly worth that. So, my original advice stands.
Just a by line. I am 64 and the narcissist was 56. Hooked up with and old girlfriend who is 60 and on hormone replacement therapy and am having the best sex in 5 years!
LUKE: Regarding “Methinks you need to be listening much more than talking WRT how to do paragraphing” get off the small potatoes, pettiness and slight arrogance so watch you step if you wish people to “listen” to you.
As for “N2RP, re celibacy for Christian men: for the most part, that’s where they are til Churchian women hit the wall after their 15 years on the carousel, and again where they’ll end up after she frivorces them” hmm…so all Christian women give their husbands a hard time w.r.t. this issue? I wouldn’t know having never dated nor married one although in principle I wish I had married a Public then High School Christian lady who only had eyes for me yet, Universities really messed up my relationships meeting women from Urban centres whose mindset was certainly not of Christian heritage instead, agnostic. I wonder what the stats would reveal when it comes to Sex and the Christian women?
“The primary difference between lifelong celibacy for them and this more usual pattern is that they’ll be impoverished after having their children painfully torn from them (and probably raised much worse than if those Christian men had been allowed to remain fathers to their children)” children torn from them? Agreed that IF these women are truly Christians than divorce should be rarely an option especially considering there they are amidst Ministers who ought to be the best counsel unless unmarried priests, which brings us to “celibacy” … “me thinks” it is not normal and yet the poor nutrition we ingest today coupled with lack of exercise other than many ladies’ mouths, isn’t conducive to feeding our organs what they need to WANT sex
“A few years of break from a lifetime of celibacy is hardly worth that. So, my original advice stands” a few years WOW that is a lifetime. If you don’t use it one loses it COULD apply too.
BTW I did catch the play-on-words regarding “frivorces” using the prefix from frivolous and this is so true.
I would add that for every male that seems to be blamed at stepping out on his woman, there is an eager participant whom seems to be so often overlooked. Women tell all far more than men do. What about Tiger Woods and all those women with only 1 man as a great example….lesson, men such as they do here need to speak out with validity therefore truths.
PS: There are 2 Johns here in DalRock.
John,
I am not a “churchian” woman. I cannot speak to the habits or desires of churchian women. I addressed only Christian women. I am, and have been one of those for over 40 years. I can only speak to that experience.
I did not ride the carousel – nor would I. Therefore I am not truly qualified to speak to the responses or thought processes of those women who did. It may be that churchian women universally do that – I don’t know. Christian women do not.
As a Christian woman, I married for life. Divorce simply WAS NOT an option for me. My husband was probably as close to a “churchian” as I will ever know. He obviously did not marry for life and he chose to be “frivorced” after 26 years of marriage.The reasons why he may have done so have been previously discussed on this thread, so I will not belabor them here, but suffice it to say it was not a lack of sex that drove him in desperation to the door. And when he left, I did not clean him out financially. I signed an agreement under the terms he drew up.
This is a man’s forum, so I don’t want to speak too much here. As I said before, everyone needs a place to vent their spleen, and this is a supportive place for a man to do so.
I believe that Boxer’s post smacks of absolute truth.
I wish you eventual healing that would restore balance to your life and the ability to see individuals for who they are instead of lumping them under stereotypes.. It took 4 years for me to get to that point where I could leave the anger behind and look for happiness. I really hope it goes much more quickly for you because that was a lot of living that I just wasted in the part of life where time flies by, and I can NEVER get that time back!
In the end, the lost years of life are probably a bigger tragedy than the divorce itself.
NEW2REDPILL hi…just popped back into my Email account and saw your commentary. I am not sure whether it may have been addressed to the other John? Since I have a list of things to do this afternoon and must get at it, I’ll respond in any case by days’ end I believe. Suffice to address 1 point which isn’t really for me to say since I am not DalRock however, a site where only one gender vents to me isn’t fruitful at all so if I had started this blog I would, as the 1982 song goes by Journey, invite anyone with “Open Arms”. Merely venting is in the long run a waste of time sort of like the “Behind Closed Doors” lol > Charlie Rich song too > approach taken by many Women’s Groups for decades and, the Women’s Studies Programs at Universities that have only recently become Gender Studies due to more and more young women opting out of this program turning their back on Feminism.
Oh, as for Boxer’s comments I will have to read them to see what you are referring to. I’ll leave you with the my brief view of marriage being as the vows state: “Til death do us part” and especially “for richer OR POORER” which for many Churchians who can be different from true Biblical reading true trying Christians, seems to be tossed aside. “40 years” is a LOT of years and so your thought process must be fairly entrenched w.r.t. what you believe. I personally would never denounce God nor whom I believe was/is his messenger Christ however in my circles I am thee absolute minority….I will leave as Jon rather than just John.
Jon didn’t work.
NOW it works
NEW2REDPILL I read what The Boxer said which tended towards the “grey” area thus diplomatic however, it was a general sharing. Specifically, it is not so much the adultery that is so skewed towards blaming males that is the main culprit as it takes 2 to tango…it is the resultant when it comes to what happens to the child(ren) after a break up whether adultery or not. And what typically happens factually is: Either no court procedure is taken in which case the mother usually states what she wants tangibly which is so often more than the father YET it beats going to Family Court as they both know wherein, the father is even worse off ~ 90% of the time as are HIS child(ren) too. There lies the major issue that has changed the landscape of families since about the 1970s …
… there are so many so called step Dads as a result, biological Dads who have been forced to downsize in most areas of his life and so WHY would he not (along with the children) be very upset with the entire bias? IF things were reversed NEW2REDPILL, there would be blood in the streets so to speak and the media would have a heyday making it headlines until the prejudice terminated.
This status quo has finally turned young and middle aged men too, sour and not wanting to rekindle relationships because of the high risk factor of losing their shirts. Now, when we hear things like “man up” or “where have all the good men gone” it is actually sickning.
Try going to Dr Helen Smith’s site(s) where anyone can get the Truths from a qualified professional woman at that, who is a counselor therefore has heard the verdict. It is very worth one’s time to listen to Helen share all the tragic facts.
To take this issue and twist it into a touchy feely notion that males/fathers should STILL not whine, swear, get angry (i.e. therefore needing anger management) is a huge DIVERSION away from the fact that our familial culture cannot continue to head any further in this direction of gross Injustice and Inequality. This is why so many men and young women too each and everyday are hopping aboard the anti-feminist movement; in short, we have had it up to our ears with this Ideology and the unreal narcissists who STILL support it. Thanx for your input because to me it is important for women to also speak in this DalRock forum IF we are to cure this grave issue that battles on and on and on seemingly getting worse accept for the fact that again, more young women are coming around to the truths and they too are upset NOT having spent enough time with their Dads…and not Quality of Time which is another crock since kids need ~ equal time with parents.
Though courts make oodles of money by siding with one gender over the other, ultimately it is up to the mothers to look into their Souls and conscience and stop this chaos…and I am not saying that ALL Moms do this but far too many engage in these catastrophic tactics that badly damage child, father, and the entire paternal side of other relatives. And in the small minority of cases where the maternal side is beaten down I feel the same way. 50/50 at all costs YET the courts would gradually empty out losing tons of legal Income if that were their verdict. Shear corruption !
Jon,
I’m all too aware of what happened to families while I was safely locked away in my marriage for 26 years. I was at first disbelieving when I stumbled into this forum, then shocked, then deeply grieved. That last state remains.
One of the things that makes me sick today is women who frivorce without considering what it will do to the children. However, that is a product of being raised without regarding the family as sacred – that, and being brainwashed into thinking that making them happy is the primary reason for marriage to exist.
Again, I am not a churchian and I do not fellowship in a churchian church. I am fortunate in that my pastors do not support feminist behavior and as a result, in the 5 years that I have attended, there has been only one divorce. The husband committed adultery, was forgiven, and repeated the behavior again despite counseling and promises. At that time the wife opted to divorce rather than try again, so it was hardly a frivorce.
In no way would I say to men that they should not be angry about the social climate today. How could they NOT be angry? And while my ex-husband was an adulterer – with all the nefarious behavior that can go with it – that is not the story of the men who land here. Most have been victimized, first by their wives, and then by the court.
As I said, I listen to everything that happens here but try to comment only once in a while just to provide balance – this is a men’s forum and the men here have a right to say what they will. My posts are not aimed at defending the actions of their former wives who were so clearly WRONG and in many cases also pretty damned EVIL. However there ARE actually women out there still who believe differently than the deluded females who frivorced them. Though right-thinking women are far more rare than they should be, I do attend two different churches now that have many women who are not feminists. Yes, we DO still exist, and I actually think there is a backlash on feminism that I hope and pray will end up increasing our numbers. I feel fortunate in that my son permits me to have unlimited access to his children. I am making it my mission to see to it that my granddaughters are being raised within a church that supports a biblical model of what a woman should be. I think that getting at young women before the social environment ruins their minds is the best chance we have at restoring things to the way they should be.
Ultimately, I wish to be married, and as someone who believes very firmly in the biblical design of marriage, I offer no reason for a man to fear frivorce from me. I have gotten offers of marriage from “sorta Christian” men who see the value in having a wife that they know they can trust, but I tell you that finding a true, practicing Christian man who is single at this age and not gun-shy due to frivorce is even rarer than finding a non-feminist woman who believes in being a submissive wife.
new2redpill > “I’m all too aware of what happened to families while I was safely locked away in my marriage for 26 years. I was at first disbelieving when I stumbled into this forum, then shocked, then deeply grieved. That last state remains” … disbelieving then shocked likely because of those 26 years, then deeply grieved maybe because (and I hate to predict) but here goes > there are soooooooooooo many reasons that have caused this pain you and I feel too that we are in an abyss. An abyss simply because when you assess then try to resolve all the areas we’ve gone astray and again “then” wish to correct them by say Turning Back The Hands Of Time as Tronne Davis sang about in 1969, it would take ALL leaders of every distinction such as so called Judges, Churches, Governments and on and on to finally come forward including the Rothchild Family and “Tell The Truth(s)” as to what they have all been doing AND not doing to create this chaos. That was another show way back when in quotes. This will not happen simply because they will not give up their Power and thus Control over the masses via what The Bible even says is our Achilles’ Heel that is their God “The Love Of Money” hence material things over and above gaining the hearts of people.
“One of the things that makes me sick today is women who frivorce without considering what it will do to the children” but they feel since babies come from their bodies that they take priority. The seed they cannot relate with because they see man “getting off” in releasing it as merely a self-gratifying physical pleasure and not much more which BTW since a 1/3 of women don;t orgasm, they cannot relate to in men. The child does not relate to who gave them birth or who planted the seed because they are too young to be that aware. Once they start to crawl, walk, speak they then differentiate therefore make connections. “However, that is a product of being raised without regarding the family as sacred” and how can they believe this or feel this when soooooooooooo many young adults come from non-nuclear mixed or single parenting families? – “that, and being brainwashed into thinking that making them happy is the primary reason for marriage to exist” and that too comes from the declining Birth Rate wherein there are so many only child families not sharing with siblings plus being raised by a single parent.
“Again, I am not a churchian and I do not fellowship in a churchian church. I am fortunate in that my pastors do not support feminist behavior and as a result, in the 5 years that I have attended, there has been only one divorce” oh REALLY. What congregation is this? or, denomination? I have never heard a Sermon that gets down to the brass tax of saying something about feminism likely for fear they offend women. “The husband committed adultery, was forgiven, and repeated the behavior again despite counseling and promises” all I can say since I know how the VAST majority of men are consumed with sexual pleasure, that it becomes an take-over addiction much like not being able to say NO to your favourite food sitting in front of you when very hungry. Even the best intentional male usually cannot resist especially IF there is something wrong in his relationship and there is an eager participant lady luring him in whom he is extremely attracted to. It use to be women did not do this as they controlled themselves and the men sexually. “At that time the wife opted to divorce rather than try again, so it was hardly a frivorce” I see. In my marriage when I found out she had been committing adultery when I was at work and could have been doing this during the 14 years of marriage, I decided not to confront her because I had tremendous fear she would leave and I would not see my son everyday as we were incredibly attached. As it turned out, she left anyway and Hell followed for years…it was when I realized that no other human could relieve my pain I turned to God through Jesus. Actually, the movie “Jesus Of Nazareth” 1977 was surprisingly the kick in the pants I had needed to realize Christ was thee one.
“In no way would I say to men that they should not be angry about the social climate today” some are but most men just back off and try and make enough money to be comfortable with basic things although, tactility continues to be a steadfast most men miss. Perhaps also they kind of miss the Motherly type to lean on at times too. “How could they NOT be angry? And while my ex-husband was an adulterer – with all the nefarious behavior that can go with it – that is not the story of the men who land here” a very sound perception you have indeed since this is very true. Insightful reading on your part “Most have been victimized, first by their wives, and then by the court” HUGE point. Once the courts have drained you then you think, where or whom do I turn to with the child(ren) more with her or sometimes totally. If middle aged, many ladies make it perfectly clear that they A. don’t want any drama B. are Independent C. want to travel D. some even say their children will always come first, etc. But you know what? IF the father has a great deal of money he can move mountains because their money is exactly what the lawyers want.
“As I said, I read everything that happens here but try to comment only once in a while just to provide balance” and I wish that men would pay respect to women that behave in this manner – “this is a men’s forum and the men here have a right to say what they will” but HOW can only venting correct the problems? “My posts are not aimed at defending the actions of their former wives who were so clearly WRONG and in many cases also pretty damned EVIL” just thinking…if Judges reversed their decisions to where fathers received what mothers have been getting, do you think that fathers would accept this? Child Support plus most of the time with the children? “However there ARE actually women out there still who believe differently than the deluded females who frivorced them” oh I know this to be true as I have talked to them. I’ve met tens of thousands of people in my lifetime whom I have discussed this with. The only complaint I have if or when I discussed my own problem is that easily most women don’t seem to get my pain as a Dad but they do the offspring’s. I know this because the typical response is related to the child’s feelings and not mine. They cannot make the connection whereas the child can, so go figure?
“Though right-thinking women are far more rare than they should be, I do attend two different churches now that have many women who are not feminists” well people tend to place feminism = Career; so if this is present, then it is believed she is a feminist though she may deny this…see what I mean? Decades ago a Career WAS the defining point of a feminist you see. “Yes, we DO still exist, and I actually think there is a backlash on feminism that I hope and pray will end up increasing our numbers” me too. There is a backlash as most men do not like the ideology but live with it. I see young women as the catalyst that is lashing back IF the media and other Institutions listen. You must know that many men also have turned the corner and accepted feminism to stay “I feel fortunate in that my son permits me to have unlimited access to his children” why would he not do so? “I am making it my mission to see to it that my granddaughters are being raised within a church that supports a biblical model of what a woman should be” like my mother did. I recall when I was engaged at 21 going home with my fiance for the weekend and one morning as she entered the shower I crept in to join her thinking Mom was not aware…afterwards she took me aside and said, “don’t you ever do that again while under your father’s and my roof as you were not raised to disrespect us” … said quietly but stern so that is an example. And, one other time when I was about hmm 9 maybe I let out the F-word…she turned and chased me into my bedroom where she slapped each of my legs a few times saying “don’t ever ever use such profanity again in this home”. I NEVER forgot these 2 moments because THIS came form the dearest mother imaginable. “I think that getting at young women before the social environment ruins their minds is the best chance we have at restoring things to the way they should be” I am nodding in total agreement. This implies before University or College in that she or he is BEST remaining at home while attending college for SURE! When they get away into that environment OMG it is unhealthy…residences become their life. I know! It took only the first month of University for that soon-to-be finance I spoke of to come over and knock on my residence door with a lady friend who soon after left her alone with me and voila; even as shy as I was we ended up talking all night in bed…became inseparable…the Pill next…see what happens even to one raised in an ultra Conservative lots-of-church environment? A Boys Choir for 8 years with 3 brothers is a lot of Anglican churchianism (new word). Wow that Choir experience was out of this world though..head Chorister singing solos in front of 300 people at Christmas was a real high!
“Ultimately, I wish to be married, and as someone who believes very firmly in the biblical design of marriage, I offer no reason for a man to fear frivorce from me” that I do believe having super read your words “I have gotten offers of marriage from “sorta Christian” men who see the value in having a wife that they know they can trust” that is a SOLID step in the right direction for certian, “but I tell you that finding a true, practicing Christian man” who READS The Bible because otherwise it can be a (FRivolous) attempt as church is the be all end all as we both seem to know in fact I must confess that I am hooked on Anglican CHURCH of ENGLAND services where the Pipe organ is strong and the choir rich souding as if singing to the Heavens AND, those OLD hymns have a hold over me obviously from my both boyhood experiences then Cathedral Choir as an operatic tenor having been trained in this area years ago at a prominent university however, this is a mere concert approach to Christianity. Yet I must admit this along with the sermon is why I attend church “who is single at this age and not gun-shy due to frivorce is even rarer than finding a non-feminist woman who believes in being a submissive wife” > this point I must think on tomorrow as my cognition (memory) is lapsing a bit LOL. I’m a morning person … great script new2redpill {interesting User Name I cannot figure out as to its origin}. I’m sorta ticked off by the loss my Leafs took tonight in Arizona off all places. Try being a loyal Toronto Maple leaf fan ans see where is gets you too…
red2pill > Correction … church is NOT the be all end all … now I lay me down to sleep i pray to the Lord my soul to keep, gosh I am tired …
new2redpill says:
November 4, 2014 at 5:01 am
” I am making it my mission to see to it that my granddaughters are being raised within a church that supports a biblical model of what a woman should be. I think that getting at young women before the social environment ruins their minds is the best chance we have at restoring things to the way they should be.”
Agreed (and my compliments to you on what you’re doing with them) as far as that goes. However, to keep “the social environment” from ruining their minds, every one of the following are essential:
-homeschool as far as possible (at least to mid-high school)
-nix the TV (NOT cut back, remove all from the house, ideally before birth, until they leave for marriage)
-no Cosmopolitan, other teen magazines, Vogue, romance novels, other women’s porn, rap/rock music
-keep them away from children who are products of broken/never-formed homes, failed cultures, public schools, who watch TV/read or listen to any of the above
-no classes ever taken that are taught by Education degree holders; in general no non-STEM/
non-trade classes or training (i.e., Psychology, Sociology, English, Literature, Women’s Studies, any ethnic studies, law, anything that is more grievance-based than math-based)
“Ultimately, I wish to be married, and as someone who believes very firmly in the biblical design of marriage, I offer no reason for a man to fear frivorce from me.”
You are a woman in America now, with America’s current legal system. That is simply an untrue statement, as long as you have the legal (as well as cultural) option to frivorce a guiltless man and permanently wreck his life. As Maggie Gallagher put it, “Count no one married until he is dead”. At any time, you could still change your mind and pull the trigger to shoot your marriage in the head — and his life in the gut. As long as you are alive, you are a frivorce threat to any many who might marry you (and without the prospect of children born into the marriage, that is a stupid thing for any man of even modest means and desire to avoid jail to do).
” and I have gotten offers of marriage from “sorta Christian” men who see the value in having a wife that they know they can trust,”
Try more like “appear to have less reason that usual to DIStrust”. You’re still an American woman in America, with America’s currently grotesquely encouraging of women frivorcing. Short of having a time machine to transport you two to the early 1800s, getting around this would take you being willing to tell a man that you’d do something like converting to Islam, and emigrating to a hard-core Muslim country with him to live out the rest of your life after changing citizenships. (I do not remotely recommend this, BTW.).
“but I tell you that finding a true, practicing Christian man who is single at this age and not gun-shy due to frivorce is even rarer than finding a non-feminist woman who believes in being a submissive wife.”
Perhaps true. Your key point here is that single, genuinely-Christian men (I’ve met some — agreed they are unusual now) are becoming gunshy of frivorc-inclined women (>90% of American women now) is encouraging. Re submissive women, agreed they exist, but are rare without serious damage or at least non-trivial Ns. I suspect I do believe that some American women are genuinely submissive and could make good wives. But, when 90% of the candies in a bag are poisoned, with no good way to screen those out, the logical choice is to pass by the candy store without going inside, even on “free sample day”.
Luke,
Thankfully there is a world of difference between “logical choice” and genuine faith.
“it is up to the mothers to look into their Souls and conscience” lol
Why, you utter beast, how very dare you! Threatening Strong Independent Womynz with teh Bad Feelz indeed. Haaaaalp! Raep! Raep aready!! Officer, shoot that misogynist swine ..
N2RP, a man can have the greatest of faith — and never date or marry. God deserves that faith. Fallen people in a society whose legal system rewards the criminals and brutalizes the innocent victims? Not hardly. Jesus didn’t marry, after all, setting quite the example for us far lesser Christians. Neither should any man marry an American woman unless he figures on having children with her (and then only after substantial precautionary actions, such that he can have some semblance of a life after she frivorces him, while she finds only ashes in her mouth while in permanent poverty).
@Luke
LOL! Some are called to marriage. And there are many scriptures that point to it being a good thing. God said from the beginning that it was not good for man to be alone. That is the entire reason woman was created.
But again – this is a man’s forum, and this conversation serves no purpose. You will never change my mind and I will never change yours. I will marry, and you will think my fiance is making a huge error – that is how it will be. So, on that note I will take my leave until I can actually contribute something worthwhile to the forum.
Oh – and you can send me your address if you like, and I will invite you to the wedding.
In what state do you live, N2RP? If you’re near where I habitually travel, I’ll show to your wedding (and even bring a nice gift).
All I would ask is to see a picture of the groom’s face the day of the wedding — and a year later.
Luke,
I would be more than happy to send it. Remember, even my ex states he had 23 good years, so that’s a bet I will happy take – it’s an easy win. But the question is, when you DO get that photo, will you be willing to acknowledge being wrong?
re: logical choice vs genuine faith.
It is true that a nice degree of (untruthful, irrational, unrealistic) optimism bias is a better strategy for life choices than cold logic. In this sense it is more rational to be (somewhat) irrational.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_bias
In the Faith faith sense, the trust that God will provide, or more generally that God is a Rewarder, actually makes more rational sense to me than the alternative.
Yes, I would, N2RP. A man can’t be a scientist without being able to admit he is wrong when clear conflicting evidence is present and authoritative. However, as Maggie Gallagher said about not counting anyone married until they’re dead, you won’t really have been married to your new paramour until one of you passes. (You thought you were married to your first hus; marriage being a lifelong union…)
Luke, no back peddling now – you must hold to your original declaration. You will have your photos, exactly as you asked.
Your assertion that you have not been married until one of the couple is dead is just plain strange. Can you get married and still date, since you are not really married until one of you dies? Of course not. You have a commitment you must honor. You are married the moment you make those vows before God. I kept my vows and would still be married except that he chose frivorce. It does not then follow that I am a danger to anyone. When you talk of evidence, there is none to convict me. He wandered off muttering the feminist’s favorite creed: “We just grew apart” which is no grounds to betray your vows.
When I marry, it will be to a man who has his own strong faith walk with God and who would never frivorce. My ex- husband was someone who said he did not believe in divorce when we met, but did not have the faith walk to back it up. I would not make the mistake again of taking vows with someone who is making them only in his own strength because that man is at high risk to not have the fortitude to keep them.
It is hard for most in this forum to acknowledge it, but NAWALT is true – and I am grateful to say that I have (by the grace of God) escaped the cancer of feminism. I still believe that marriage vows are forever. I believe the man is meant to be the head of the home. And most of all, I have faith in God and how He binds the hearts of couples who put Him first. I know that faith pleases God and is something that He will honor and bless. If you are not a Christian, that is difficult to track, but for me it is a very real and vital thing.
Photographic evidence to follow in time, but for now we will just have to agree to disagree.
N2RP, my point about not calling someone married until they or their spouse is dead is that you can’t know if they were really married til then. And, no, someone trying to be married (what’s currently misnamed “married” in our disastrous society) can’t generally date with any honor. (I would consider a man who has children by a wife who has deadbeded him and would filch them in the event of divorce to be a possible exception; this is my situation now, FWIW, NOT that I am “dating” yet.)
Lastly, if you (laudably) see marriage as being for life, how is it that you recognize your first husband’s divorcing you as anything but a very long (and unlikely to ever reconcile) separation, regardless of what any man-made court might say? Courts are wrong all the time.
Luke, under your definition, you can never really know if someone is married. Death alone will not give you that information
Interesting that you consider a man who has been deadbeded an exception. The Bible does not,
To answer your question, there is ONE Biblical exception that is recognized to break the marriage contract and that is adultery. My darling ex “excepted” me – more than once, and with more than one woman, thus I am no longer bound to him. Truth be told though, had he had remained single, even after the adultery and divorce, I would not have considered dating and remarriage. I would have remained open to reconciliation though Biblically I did not have to. God hates divorce and so do I. However, once he remarried, that door closed. Biblically, what happens in his romantic life at this point does not concern me as it is not permissible to go back to him again. He is now bound to her and must stay there.
new2redpill says:
November 8, 2014 at 1:47 am
Hi new2redpill, I realise this is not my discussion but if you are interested there are other explanations of the adultery clause: http://oncemarried.net
Yes, Don – I am well aware of those explanations. Can’t say it disturbs me though. When we first divorced, I cried nonstop for several months. I then started investigating my next move. I looked for programs within the church that would help us with reconciliation. I then made an utter fool of myself by trying to talk to him about it.
I say I made an utter fool of myself because what I did not know is that he had already secretly remarried, just 4 months after the divorce to one of the women in his stable. In my ignorance, I continued on the reconciliation path for 8 months when it was actually not even possible as he was a married man.
My belief falls with that of many experts. In no place in the new testament does Jesus hold anyone bound based on that actions of another. It would be a complete departure for me to be forever denied a husband because mine chose to betray his vows, divorce and take another wife. I had an obligation to him as long as he was single to remain open to reconciliation. Once he took vows with her, our relationship was permanently severed.
That was rather disrespectful to men who choose not to get married.
Sure, Eve was created to be a helper to Adam; and then something happened that changed the fabric of that relationship forever. No more a helper.
The whole problem with your situation is that no matter how bad your ex was, you still chose him, you still gave yourself to him. He owns you and no other man really wants what belongs to another man, not for more than a night anyway.
NEW2RedPill and LUKE: I cannot sleep at 2:38 a.m. and so “For What It’s Worth” …
“Courts are wrong all the time” is a huge statement to elaborate upon in proving how this is SO true for Family Courts yet meanwhile, the Holy Bible sits in front of these Judges as their “man made laws” rip families apart ! Courts should NOT get involved in Custody disputes but instead, the Church and families involved, together should re-assert their claim on THIS most important foundation of human/humane culture. Otherwise, their Chambers will continue to be actually no better than the Wild Wild West they claim to the oppose the guilty until proven innocent verdict. At least they did have trials back then yet today, the verdict is usually already in based on gender even before a couple stands before a Judge, which is thus should be the peoples’ Judgement as a Crime to FAMILIAL Humanity.
Consequently, the legacy left to our childrens’ childrens’ children since ~ the 70s has been an easily a Doomsday Day predictive factor for those who see this as THEE sign towards end times.
Through my own experiences of perceiving the causes and effects of many couples’ breaking up, using insight combined with thoroughly drawing from introspect into my own break up, I cannot help but turn to the Rapture as the only plausible forthcoming answer to cleaning up a chaotic mess.
Even animal lovers could actually say as the cynics some of them are towards human behavior > SEE how EVEN other monogamous animals never commit adultery yet, the very humans in charge of our man made believe that all animals have inferior intellect plus far less capacity to Feel than mankind? It further begs the question that having Dominion over all the creatures of this earth, have we not further turned our backs as stewards of this natural planet let alone on our own civil behaviors by slowly crucifying marriage and the nuclear family?
I came from a lengthy line of centuries’ long cultural privilege with many ancestral REAL Christian Politicians, some with the highest ranking military stature based both in Ireland still owning castle-manors and IF they were alive today to see what has happened, appalling would be their understatement so more like, cold blooded behaviours and not warm blooded.
Hence,more and more i turn to THEM and Jesus for answers as Sex plus Money gains Dominion of us. We talk about and show Sex as if it were a recreational pass time plus I need not explain how “money does rule”. Some ppl actually assert that marriage is merely an exchange of female Sex for male Money, which is an extremely sad and mad too given the beautiful wondrous children resulting from coming together as one creating what is suppose to carry on as a union of 2 souls. God knows that the BIOLOGICAL family comes first. My parents knew this instinctively.
God help us all? NOT until we (in my view) get down on our knees and beg for forgiveness REALLY feeling, meaning it, then DO the right thing or else face the consequences. Wholesome people must declare social War against many of our man made Institutions within the government ranks by, for starters, boycott elections … by not casting votes they cannot govern … that what be the best step in correcting the political havoc exercised against the common man all for the purpose of gaining Monies, Power, and therefore Control over us.
Having just proof read what I typed with eye-lids NOW ready to close, at 3;10 a.m., please excuse my typos and, grammatical errors too. I should have read it back to myself before sending it. I hope the military component of my centuries long Irish heritage isn’t a turn off … I REALLY find that researching one’s ancestry is captivating … it is amazing how human behaviours/abilities can in part, be traced back to their ancestral components genetically speaking. For example, my strong Welsh heritage seems to have bestowed upon me a strong singing voice while the Scottish component seems to have come through via mathematical skills, and the Irish portion that I don’t share herein is my high spirited temperament yet DO show my love of word usage (i.e puns are fun). Up at 6 a.m. the best part of the day ….
@ Feministhater
My statement gave no disrespect. SOME are called to marriage – not all. Those who chose not to marry should be highly honored for their choice as it allows for them to be more readily available for service to the Lord. That is, provided their reasons are not birthed from hate and bitterness, which would of course be something God would not want them to carry.
My ex-husband is not a bad man. He just made some very bad choices which led him into some frightfully sinful places. Where he will end up only God knows, but it has little to do with me at this point.
True Christian women are still helpers for their husbands as God commands. I get to see that modeled every week within our fellowship and I am thankful these women are modeling godly behavior for the children and young women that are there.
A man does not “own” his wife. God calls the two to be joined as one, which is an entirely different relationship. But that is a matter of faith. My faith is obviously quite different from yours. And – because I date men of similar faith, they do not view me as “property,” but as the woman of God I am called to be. AND they seek marriage with a fellow believer as is right and proper, not just one night. I get that it seems wrong to you but still it is so.
You prefaced your comment with “LOL” In other words, you laughed out loud at his statement, i.e. you were being disrespectful. And yes, your husband owns you as you own your husband. That is the ideal of a Christian marriage. So yes, you are property.
And please send us a link or a name to this wonderful fellowship of yours that respects men as heads of families and honours marriage and the covenant. Thanks.
And yet, you do not have to pay him alimony, you don’t have to support him or give him the house or pay him child support for the children. The failure of comparing your divorce to that of countless more men, is that you don’t seem to get that the legal ramifications for marriage for a man are deadly if a wife chooses to divorce, they are onerous. You laugh in the face of men who see that and choose not to marry, you call it bitterness and ungodly behaviour because we talk about it in angry tones or naughty words. You miss the wood for the trees and you will keep on sprouting useless platitudes because that is all you can do.
Yikes! I am aghast, feministhater. It was not my intention to be disrespectful to Luke. I was trying to lighten the mood. I hate that it came off differently. My apologies, because though I disagree with Luke, I do have respect for him, for many reasons, and (believe it or not) actual concern for him as well.
I do disagree with the “property” aspect you use to define Christian marriage, but that is a small matter, first because we are not obligated to agree and second because I am not married. My ex is the husband of a different woman and the only relationship he has with me is that he is the father of my children and will always be respected as such. That is where prayer and study has taken me and I have peace with the correctness of that stance.
I try not to ever argue lesser points of doctrine with other believers. If we can agree on the bedrock important items (Who God is, Jesus as Savior, Spirit-filled life) then we agree on what matters most and that is really all we need.
I do not wish to get into long and improper debate on this forum about a specific church. If you truly have an honest desire to know more about the “wonderful” fellowship I attend, I will be happy to provide more information for you, off-line.
Feministhater, I think you missed my earlier posts. There is NEED for anger and bitterness that comes out here, and a need for this forum.
No, I don’t provide financial support for him. But it is also true that he doesn’t support me, didn’t pay alimony or child support and also that I allowed him to draw up the property division himself and I signed it, even though it left me with far less than the courts would have allowed for such a long-term marriage.
I’m not painting myself as some saint, but I am someone who tried to do the right thing in a difficult situation. I recognize that unfortunately, I am very much in the minority. Most women do not behave that way and….I’m very sorry for what they do to men, and that the courts let them do it. I’m even more grieved that there are churches that support it.
NEWeREDPILL you live in a fantasy land calling DalRock this and as a Christian too yet Pro-Action not just flowery talk this is Truth. Jesus was not merely talk but action!
I will personally get back to you after the hockey game to hopefully wake you up, particularly after some of your postings like snake oil and BTW, in the meantime since you “date” yet no man is clearly up to your standards I am sure that many of us really wonder what world as I have eluded to, you truly live in because WE fathers and men are getting crucified since the 70s and to not see this is as blind as the blind man Jesus cured = action. It is high time supposedly great women like you stop the pettiness associated with WORDS picking us apart with replies like Feimisthater, and the like.
Sticks and stones shall break our bones yet words will never hurt us??? Oh no, words have just about sank mankind’s ship and most of them are centred around the gender we as hard orking men havemade comfortable in their homes tonight especially, the single so called WELL EDUCATED University types with Governments being their husbands and fathers = Socialism the killer of families. Empirical Evidence proves this yet the blind cannot see this happening…sad? No, unnatural and unGodly.
I regret that you need to hear this but you do so think (not just feel) on this !
NEW2REDPILL, i apologize profusely for my in between periods of hockey wrongfully sharing as you were addressing “feminist hater” a man here while not calling DalRock this, which is what I misread. As such I need to leave this site and just DO while staying off any sites for that matter. Venting on web sites does not get any of us anywhere. Again, as a detailed person I REALLY messed up.
I do however, believe that anything remotely relating to SEXUAL content should never be discussed on any site so like this.
BTW, I too will be looking for a TRUE Christian woman before Christmas and they YES are very hard to find. I grew up with ample wealth yet it is the curse of mankind and so like Scrooge in The Christmas Carol I will not turn away a Fan … IF you have seen this movie.
I feel so badly for my mistake … hope you and Like or any others for that matter shed some cooperative light on this Grave matter…oh, why 55 years old is the chosen number makes me think it is largely a hormonal problem therefore poor diet and little exercise related … best wishes.
I am now going to try an unsubscribe.
For God’s sake get over it! No wonder your husband ran like the wind.
Wow has this gone off topic. Potshots at president and scripture mumbo-jumbo.
Are women done with men is topic.
please tell me how come my wife of 60 years old is always wet? Is it natural or is she cheating on me?
women have 3 good tries to get rich with out working aday in her life,, the 1st hubby, the 2nd hubby, then 3rd hubby who she will decide quickly when to feed him tothe sharks,, plus social security, nah women only need men to boost their bank accounts and car trade in’s
RE: Article Topic.
Men would rather be alone than without a hot, young woman. I met a dying man at work who was essentially killing himself with drugs who even went out of his way to have a young, desperate woman at his side until his end. He regretted not having settled down and having kids but still refused to deal with women his own age ,even up to his death. I always pictured him being 7 years old hanging around kindergarten classes, looking for the youngest and most naive girls he could find.
Had I known all of this this (the topic) when I was a young woman I would have married a completely different man than the one I did. I think THAT man, whom I met later, was not as shallow as my husband with whom wasted my best years. Today at my age, no men will acknowledge me, only creeps who try to corner me for sex. They all believe we are all desperate for sex. (That in itself is still as wrong and odd as it’s always been.) That’s two punishments for a woman who is getting older.
Basically it’s Not hot=Desperate. Who taught men this delusion and why do they believe it for life?
It appear that Too Tired had the hots for the man she refers to but that he did not notice her. He was, she says and even though he seems to be committing slow suicide, better than her husband. How priceless that she should claim to have wasted the better years of her life with her husband a man who put up with her yet berates the other guy for not marrying.
Too Tired wails that no one will acknowledge her sexually and then promptly contradicts herself by saying that men do notice her sexually but instantly dismisses such men as ‘creeps’. What she means and what she cannot come to terms with is that hot young guys don’t notice her.
This is just too funny.
Agreed, Opus. Re low-SMV men approaching her for sex:
1) What else does she potentially have to offer men, that they a) need or want and b) can’t get outside a relationship, besides sex?
2) Only low-SMV men approach her because she has low SMV herself, and higher SMV men not only prefer higher SMV women, but can get them, and they know it.
QED.
Interesting blog. I am a 54 year old woman. Had two husbands, both of whom I treated as my mother treated my father… with contempt. I had learned no better way.
My youthful years were spent being a good mum but crap wife. I had no idea what being a wife entailed and saw the men as financial providers and felt no compunction to help in this task yet I resented their freedom to earn money and hold the financial power in the relatiosnhip; which they mostly abused.
Neither did I feel the need to be a wife, to keep my man, believing as a feminist that such domestic ‘drudgery’ was demeaning and confusing belonging with ownership. It never occurred to me that I had entered into a contract and had a role to play. I didnt have the wit to realise that it was the children that created the drudgery not just the men, I resented and blamed my husbands’ and sought greener grass elsewhere. As did they. The upshot of this pattern which I repeated with a similarly disiullsioned second husband was that I broke apart my own family – which is at odds with what I have since come to see as one of a woman’s most important and potentially fulilling functions in life, which is to be the satelite around which her family orbit. …. feminism is not all its cracked up to be. It has alienated men and women. Some of the comments on this page are so unkind and bitter. Life is too short for such cruelty. Feminism has no place in healthy family dynamics. The workplace yes.
I have seen the error of my ways too late. I do not fall for any of the cougar nonsense – I know that men treat me differently now than they did when I was younger. It is understandable. However my experience has been that there are always plenty of men willing to have sex with me should I feel so inclined, which I dont. They are not interested in me,or having a relationship with me. Hope springs eternal though, but I remain vigilant… I am not a fool. Men and women are different, have different agendas. The man of my dreams does not exist anywhere except in my imagination where he is a kindly, fatherly, financially benevolent , indulgent, self reliant yet randy chap. He is a fantasy figure.
Violet Da’ Macida says:
January 2, 2015 at 3:05 am
So sorry to hear of another family of victims of feminism. I’m even more sorry to read that you still don’t get it.
Feminism has no place in healthy family dynamics. The workplace yes.
Feminism has no place anywhere in a healthy society. Feminism is bad for businesses and the economy. It’s bad for politics as well as the justice system. Feminism is bad for everything and anything unless you like the idea of living in grass huts and in utter chaos.
My youthful years were spent being a good mum but crap wife.
This is a contradiction. A crap wife is hurting her children. That is not the behavior of a good mum.
The upshot of this pattern which I repeated with a similarly disiullsioned second husband was that I broke apart my own family
See what I mean.
… They are not interested in me,or having a relationship with me. Hope springs eternal though, but I remain vigilant… I am not a fool.
Why are you even thinking about this? It’s a good thing that you are starting to see that you have been duped, and it sucks that it took you so long to begin to see it, but your not there yet. Forget about yourself and think about what you can do for others. And fight Feminism. Feminism is bad, all of it.
The man of my dreams does not exist anywhere
My advice: Stop dreaming and deal with reality.The atheists that read here will get a laugh out of my next suggestion. Get yourself a Bible and start reading it. And pray. Believe me when I say that Jesus is real and he saves the lost. That doesn’t mean that you get your fantasy man someday, but it does mean that there is hope for the future.
You are preaching to the converted my friend… BTW what am I still not getting?
In your post at 3:05 am you implied that feminism is necessary in the work place. Feminism is not necessary in the work place. It is bad and always was bad. All of it. From suffrage to the idea of legalizing homicide for women against men in Canada.
You also posted: “My youthful years were spent being a good mum but crap wife”. There is no such thing as being a bad wife AND a good mother. If you were a bad wife, then your parenting suffered as well. A bad wife is hurting her children by disrespecting their father, thus weakening the family unit (even if he was a jerk).
And last, you appear to still be thinking of yourself in all of this. I hope I am mistaken, but your post is screaming “woe is me, I’ve wasted my life”. Well, yes you did. Now accept the consequences and do what you can to make it right. God may restore what the worm has eaten, but we aren’t entitled to anything.
So if there are any ideas about what you think you may deserve, forget them. We don’t deserve anything, none of us. We need to start being grateful for what we have and what God gives to us. Sadly, women seem to not know this more than men (even Christian women).
Al says:
November 25, 2014 at 3:57 pm
“please tell me how come my wife of 60 years old is always wet? Is it natural or is she cheating on me?”
It’s probably natural. She’s very likely incontinent by that age.
JDG,
I have no problem reading something on paper with out the paragraphs,
Try grading a college paper with no paragraphs. It is just as bad!
Luke,
Paragraphs are a good thing, not a nit pick. TL:DR is a meme for a reason.
N2RP, re celibacy for Christian men: for the most part, that’s where they are til Churchian women hit the wall after their 15 years on the carousel, and again where they’ll end up after she frivorces them.
That is the claim, but many of us did not have that experience, so your generalization falls short.
john,
“What shall it profit a man if he gains the world (sex), but loses his sole.” and “sin is pleasurable for a season.” Assuming of course that your hook up is just that, not a marriage.
new2redpill,
I do not know your exact situation. I would encourage you to ponder though your role in things. My own mother had me convinced it was all my father’s fault they divorced years ago, but I saw things in a very different life as I came closer to that situation than I would have liked. She claimed I was calling my dad a saint because I believed she caused a significant amount of the marriage problems, contrary to her thoughts.
She noted that she kicked my dad out because he wasn’t spending enough time with my sister and I, a rather odd solution to preclude meeting the condition. It does not sound like your situation is the same, but only you could evaluate that now. My understanding caused some bumps between my mother and I in her last year or so of life (she just passed away). Not horrid, but she never could overcome the idea that she bore significant responsibility, especially because she was trying to fill in for a demanding father.
I hope this makes sense. I am not trying to attack you, just encourage you to think broader than you may have. She also did not get many “cash and prizes,” but had many unfair expectations. Ironically those expectations colored things even years after my father had died.
New2redpill,
Note that it is very tough for a woman on these threads, especially one who is not brash. You will hit a lot of “I HATE GIRLZZZZ!!!!!” thoughts, especially on that end of these threads. It is often based on reality, but goes off track.
You may have to aim older than you may be thinking if you want a husband, but it is possible, especially if you have kept yourself in at all good physical shape. It still remains a tough challenge to find a good match when you are older, but many have done it.
I would be interested in seeing if you have done anything digging deeper into that topic Dalrock, though it seems a bit off from your normal focus and could be harder to pull out the appropriate data due to the many soft aspects of the situation. How successful can marriages be in a case like hers?
@BradA,
Thank you for your comments. You would have to read a little farther back in this thread to see my comments reflecting on my own behavior that contributed to the breakdown of communication. HOWEVER – the dissolution of the marriage was entirely on him. The lies, the adultery, the abuse..none of that should have happened, especially within a long-term relationship of 26 years. As a matter of fact, at Christmas he actually sent me a written apology acknowledging his “repulsive, reprehensible” behavior and asking for my forgiveness. Reality is, I stopped beating him up over this stuff a while back. I started inviting him to the family events again last year and put him back in the family photographs. Actually, that’s probably why he could finally get to the place of asking my forgiveness.
Marriage – honestly, not really a problem. I find that I haven’t had difficulty finding great men who are interested in marrying me. The grim picture painted here about that subject has not played out in my life – Thank the Lord! But I will say that finding a happy relationship was not possible as long as I was consumed by anger and bitterness about what happened. It wasn’t until I got to a place where I stopped holding him hostage for his actions and let go of my resentment that I was able to attract really good-quality suitors.
It sounds like you are at least partially aimed the right way new2redpill.
I just wanted to share my note as it was something my mother could not handle. I had (and have) a great deal of respect for her, but she never could realize she was a product of her life as much as anyone else. She had too much of her value tied up in her being considered perfect.
Overcoming the bitterness is always a good thing and keep in mind that it is an ongoing process, not a one-time event. (I know that from my own experience.)
We always have to ask ourselves, what do we bring to the relationship? If partners don’t “bring it”, its not going to happen.
Sorry all I have in my thoughts today is a snippet of whim.
Deborah, if you happen to be in South Florida, drop me an email at martin223 at yahoo dot com. I might happen to meet your needs… I’m 59, tall, good condition, slim and well-educated. I’ve been dating but haven’t really found the right person yet. My marriage history is a lot like yours.
Regards,
Victor
Women arnt through with men after 55, in fact if involved with lover sex gets better, although when their relationship falls apart for whatever reason. They really drag their feet becoming involved with a man just for the simple reason they may not be willing to compromise their life with jealousy or rules, marriage still has a connotation of ownership for men. A woman 55 and older if starting in a relationship and didn’t grow in a confident relationship, may not be so apt to get permission or sit through sterotype relationships that arnt equal and balanced. There is a type of resentment that develops regarding the cute pretty female routine becomes and starts to feel like being written off and their worth is based on looks or as good for one thing why else would men talk to them.Women start to come into their own power and that scares off men, who need to be looked up to and the end all to end all
Being in your own power as a women doesn’t necessarily mean scaring off a man. Most men would like a woman who is in her own power. Maybe you meant something else.. maybe you mean women who aren’t women at all but who are aggressive to the point of being mannish. That turns off men of any age.
I want a man I can look up to. If not, what’s the point? The male/female polarization create this and without it and without the natural ‘drawing’ to one another the whole thing loses it pizazz and relevance.
And there u go with Vic Martin … another mangina ready to serve…even for women at 57 (might as well say 100) – Deborah – 106 lbs of sagging, wrinkling flesh – past the expiration date of any woman worth dating, let alone a self-centered skeleton like her…
Women arnt through with men after 55, in fact if involved with lover sex gets better…
Really? Sex after 55 is better than sex in your twenties? Seriously?
They really drag their feet becoming involved with a man just for the simple reason they may not be willing to compromise their life with jealousy or rules…
Those silly rules. Who needs rules in a relationship. Right?
…marriage still has a connotation of ownership for men.
If only this were true. Sadly in western countries it seems that the reverse is more likely the case. Here we have multitudes of women calling the shots and men scrambling to complete a ‘honey do’ list..
A woman 55 and older if starting in a relationship and didn’t grow in a confident relationship, may not be so apt to get permission or sit through sterotype relationships that arnt equal and balanced.
I’m of the mind that by 55 a woman should already be a grandmother rather than looking to start a relationship, but that’s just me. Do you really think it would help things along if some one told men that older women want equal and balanced relationships? It’s not like men haven’t heard “equal and balanced” from younger women already.
There is a type of resentment that develops regarding the cute pretty female routine becomes and starts to feel like being written off and their worth is based on looks or as good for one thing why else would men talk to them.
Biology can be harsh, and there still is that pestering question: “Why is a women who should be a grandmother by now looking to start a relationship at this age?” The answers are almost always huge red flags for a man of understanding.
Women start to come into their own power and that scares off men, who need to be looked up to and the end all to end all
Women coming into their own power has done much to destroy western values and culture. It should scare EVERYONE. Also, women need to look up to men as much if not more than men need women looking up to them.
I stand corrected.
Women being handed power by the government should scare EVERYONE!
I am 53 years of age, Male. My wife is 55 years of age. We have been married for three years. Happily I thought. 12 months ago My wife started sleeping in the spare bed, in another room of our house. we have not had sexual relations in that time. Not that I have not wanted it. I have tried to talk to my wife about my feelings, and how I would really like her to come back to our bed, our room. but she says it all comes back to sex doesn’t it. she says that the reason why she sleeps in the spare room is so she can get some sleep. ( I turn a lot in my sleep) I am really tring to understand her feelings but dont know. help please
Wayne – Are you a Christian?
I feel better about myself than I did when I was in my 20’s and I am in my 50″s! I am not done with men at all.
We know maggie. We know.
I can only tell you one woman’s experience: Mine. Surgical menopause at 42. Ended a very long relationship at 48. Blessed with very good genes (everyone in my family looks 5-10 years younger than they are naturally, no scalpels). No 26-inch waist, but not overweight on any chart. Still catch men checking me out. Still get chatted up and flirted with in random places. Usually the guys who approach are between about 35 and 55. Really, nothing has changed from men’s perspective of me, that I can tell. But no, my interest in men isn’t there like it used to be. And I’m glad of it, because I did some stupid, hormonally driven things in my younger years for the sake of love and sex! 😀
Now I am more likely to walk away from lesser offenses than I used to and I’m far less likely to accept an invitation for a date in general or have a second or third date with someone I am on the fence about (no more, “well, let me give him a chance, he may be great but just nervous on this date”). In general I’m more interested in going where I want, when I want to, and living my life the way I want to, without having to discuss it with anyone else, consider how someone else feels about it, or worry about how my actions might affect someone else, than forming any deep emotional bond with someone. I still like socializing, and I enjoy men’s company, their perspectives, their bodies, their voices, their strength, their style. But I don’t seek all of that out like I used to.
So it’s not rationalization, or sour grapes, or anything that some men here want to tell themselves. It’s that I don’t particularly want to give of myself or make someone else’s needs a priority the way I used to. And I don’t want to deal with anyone’s pee on my dang toilet rim! 😉
Oops, relationship ended at 47. I’m 48 now. Just to clarify.
So I should just walk away from the woman That I Love, because she doesn’t feel the same way as she did 3 years ago. I so want to be able to hold and cuddle my wife, And I don’t expect her to deal with my so called pee on the toilet rim.
And JDG, Yes I believe in god and the after life.
Wayne, that’s between you and your wife. Like I said, I only speak for myself. My point is it’s not the age, as I went through it far younger than 55, and not any sort of sour grapes, as men are still approaching me. The change in attitude came from within me, not in reaction to any kind of lessened desirability, as some people in the comments would like to believe of women. (“Oh, men no longer want these older women, so these women tell themselves they don’t want men any more.”) It’s the hormones, or lack thereof. I’d probably feel the same way if I went through this at 35, or 30. In my case, I became a lot more mellow (yay, no more PMS!), but being more mellow also means not being inclined to put up with too much inconvenience in the dating world or give too much of a crud whether men chase me or not. It’s not even ambivalence. It’s that I don’t particularly care one way or the other. It’s all very “meh, whatever.”
I will say this, though: At my age, unless I date someone younger, I’m looking at potentially being a caregiver in 10 years’ time. If I got married at 25 and my spouse had a heart attack or stroke in his early 60s, okay, we’ve had a lifetime together. But if I remarried at 55, no, there’s not that foundation. Yes, women get sick, too, but given that divorce rates are higher when women get sick than when men get sick, remarrying in one’s 50s is kind of a risky proposition for women. After raising children and then being faced with caring for aging parents, it’s really quite understandable why single women in their 50s aren’t so gung-ho to jump into another commitment. A lot of women look at their 50s as the window where they still have the energy to do something for themselves for a change, while they still have the energy.
Wayne, if you are a Christian and you are married then you should remain with your wife. Don’t take marital advice from women or “blue pill” men, or from anyone who would advise you to do what the Bible tells you not to do.
Know that you are in a terrible place. I recommend that you put your trust in Jesus and focus on doing the things He wants you to do. Read your Bible and pray everyday. Also, pray for your wife, and don’t pamper her. You need to lead, whether or not she follows. Set examples for her to follow, and don’t follow her when she tries to lead you.
If your wife is a Christian, she is in disobedience to God and not following Christian instruction. You should tell her and warn her to repent. In Ephesians chapter 5 it is written:
“22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.”
And in 1 Peter chapter 3 we see:
“3 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,”
This is how a Christian woman should relate to her husband and it is part of your job to instruct her. Don’t get all upset when she doesn’t comply. Just maintain your frame and continue to lead while you follow Jesus.
The husband has a different set of responsibilities as we see also in Ephesians chapter 5:
“25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body.”
Remember not to confuse love with niceness, but also remember to live with her in an understanding way (1 Pet 3:7). Don’t let emotion get in the way of your judgment, and lead her while you follow Jesus. If she responds accordingly, great. If she does not, it’s on her and she will have to answer for it. I hope that helps.
@JDG
We really need to have a Christian husband 9-1-1 site somewhere, to dispense advice like this.
My experience is that I want the company of a man probably more than I did in my earlier years. Back then, I wanted one because I thought that is what comes next and so I was open to doing what comes next in life. Now, however, I want a man just because I really really like this one particular man. There is no “what comes next” or pressure to marry or to ‘have someone”, there is just a profound love that quite honestly never came close in my earlier years.
Maybe because I am more sure of myself or I have nothing to prove. But I feel this thing “about women being done with men over 55” isn’t what is appears.
I like what Pandionna says and think it has more to do with that.
In other words… we aren’t done with men after 55, but we know more about what we want and won’t settle like we might have in our earlier years. And then we didn’t know we were settling. We just didn’t know what we wanted. Now we do and it is easier to just not have a man rather than have one who isn’t the ‘right’ one.
Me me me me me me me me me me me
Women over 55 are supposed to be surrounded by their grandkids and doting on them.
Always funny the way women over a certain age now know (as opposed to their former selves) exactly what they want, and how their present man is (or will be) so much better than any that came before – only today, I was reading a Twitter update from a twenty-three year old female (daughter of an acquaintance) saying more or less the same thing.
Of course, as physical desire wains the misery that unfulfilled desire causes also lessens.
John Nesteutes says:
May 28, 2015 at 2:16 pm
Thank you John.
we aren’t done with men after 55, but we know more about what we want and won’t settle like we might have in our earlier years.
I would say that in this culture most women are settling in their early 30s. If they had been smart they would have chosen while they were young and had the most to offer instead of trying to “have it all”.
And then we didn’t know we were settling. We just didn’t know what we wanted.
Sorry but no, most of you knew you were settling at 30 something, and you were focused on what you could salvage for yourself rather than what you were bringing to the relationship.
Now we do and it is easier to just not have a man rather than have one who isn’t the ‘right’ one.
+1 to Opus for calling this out. Most women wouldn’t know the “right” one if he married her. Oh wait…
@JDG
In my family and friends, women who are widowed/divorce in their 50’s rarely if ever find new partners. It seems a combo of already having had the family/marriage experience and not wanting to add baggage onto themselves. I think it’s easy to agree that a 50 year old male marrying a 20 year old female is bound to be more successful than two 50 yearolds with 50 years of experience that won’t mesh well. So, men do seem to remarry much more often at a later age, but to younger women. I do have a bit of a bias here though, as Mr. Isa is quite a bit older than me, and I view age gaps as incredibly natural and perhaps more positive than same age couples.
Maybe I just am one of a few, but when I married at 24 I had no clue whatsoever what life was about much less marriage. To help you see what I mean about “not having a clue” the man I married shortly began to write bad checks because he wouldn’t work.
If I had had a good understanding of myself and life I probably would have been able to see that something was wrong and not married him in the first place.
If , 35 years later I didn’t know more about myself than I did at 24 something would be terribly wrong with me. I think this applies to everyone.
My point is simply to say that I do not think women are “really” over men after age 55. Or maybe they are… this one isn’t.
Clearly marriage should be restricted to the over sixties (sans hair, sans teeth, sans everything; second childishness and mere oblivion – to somewhat mangle the bard) or only to those who have passed their accountancy or law exams. Sadly nature nature knows very little of banking law, indeed these days I find that even bank tellers do not understand endorsing of cheques – bills of exchange – on their reverse side: What is the world coming to. Every woman deserves and must have a George (whether Clooney or Soros).
Women over 50 often fear that if they remarry, the new husband will limit how much time she can spend with her children and grandchildren.
My mother was widowed at age 49/50. At age 60, she married her high school boyfriend. They have now been married (very happily) for a period of time that equals the length of her marriage to my father.
I think a broader context is that remarriage rates are dropping like a stone for both sexes — it’s having a significant impact on the overall marriage rate, as well. I think the reason for this is clear: people who have already been married in this culture, and have faced the endless series of compromises and challenges that this entails, and have “failed” already at it once (talking about divorced people here, not widows/widowers), are increasingly disinterested in having another spin on the wheel, particularly later in life when most aspects of their personality/lifestyle/family situation is already quite “fixed”. It’s not so much fear of getting divorced again (although that is a factor) as it is fatigue with the experience of being married, and the desire to live independently, which meshes much more thoroughly with our prevailing cultural paradigm of individualism and independence. Some people are more needy than others in terms of companionship, of course, but this is also available, and for older people as well, sans marrying, and so that is also increasingly less of a motivation for remarriage as compared to even the relatively recent past. For all of these reasons, there is a greater reluctance to remarry for people of both sexes, which translates into the bar being generally much higher for a potential remarriage spouse to clear — that is, he/she better be simply once-in-a-lifetime extraordinary and an absolute 1000% value add with no detractions whatsoever in order to convince many older divorced people that remarriage is worth it.
Novaseeker: You hit the nail on the head. There are lots of people my age and older who have stable relationships with a significant other but who not only don’t “make it legal” — they don’t give up their separate residences.
Dalrock: I am now getting security warnings for this site.
Women over 55 aren’t over men. The problem is that men are definitely over women who are 55.
A decent 55 year old guy can snag a 40 year old woman, no problem.
@maggieblack
You’re basically saying you were a rebellious, unintelligent person at age 24 who wouldn’t listen to anyone. Well-bred 24 year olds listen to the advice of their parents and friends, and thus avoid marrying a guy who doesn’t work. (It should have been obvious before the wedding that he was unemployed.) In the community I live in, a prospective wife’s family knows the prospective husband’s boss and talks to him to assess his character.
In my experience people who are unintelligent and rebellious at age 24 continue to be so at age 55.
@Isa
The only real issue with large age-gap relationships is that, once there is enough of this, it results in lots of men in their 20s/30s who can’t find spouses, and then you get all of the problems that come from roving bands of unattached men. Same issues that happen with polygyny, or with 80% of women chasing 20% of top tier men.
@Laura
Thanks for the heads up. WordPress hosts the site and all I do is provide content (text, links, and images). With that in mind there isn’t much I can do either way (to either cause a problem or fix it). Could you tell me what software application is giving the warning, and the specific message?
I think another reason that older divorced people aren’t remarrying is because they don’t need to, economically. Most of them are not going to be impoverished. They can (for now) live on welfare and Medicare/Medicaid if they have to. If worse comes to worse, one of their kids or the government will always care for them. That covers the underclass and the working poor. Everyone else generally has enough to live on by themselves through savings, pensions, social security and work for supplemental income, and don’t need another’s financial support.
Wow! John, You are way off base in your ideas of me as a human being. I was far from rebellious. Never have been, As far as men being over women after 55 you are way off yet again. In the past 2 years I have had more men wanting my companionship and each of them tell me that they have never met anyone who they could connect with on this level. And what is amazing to me is that they are very much younger. The youngest one is 30 and he is completely amazed with everything about me.
So John, you really need to get your information straight.
Your contempt for women is really showing up and it’s not pretty.
Uh oh, John, you’ve been shamed! Better get out the sackcloth and do some penance, so you can be “pretty” again.
I was “amazed” with an older woman for a while when I was that age too (not 25 years older; that’s gross). I loved “connecting with” her on all sorts of levels too, especially the levels where she was on top.
Wow! On the internet there are so many woman in their 50s and 60s (who should be married with grandchildren) claiming to attract young handsome men, yet I NEVER see this in person.
My advice: If you are a woman over 55 and you have a 30 year old spending time with you in any sort of “romantic” capacity, he is most likely seeking access to your bank account and/or (on the off chance that you look exceptionally young) looking for free and easy sex.
JDG, Just because that is your truth it doesn’t make it true for all. What I am finding is men who just want a woman they can talk to a spend time with. I wouldn’t spend time with a 30 year old because there is no reason to. I only said that many young men seem to be attracted to me and it is after they talk to me and get to know me. There are lots of men who have been hurt and are looking for authenticity. When I tell them I don’t like to eat out, go out or spend some one else’s money frivolously I think they see me as a real person. No sex has ever been mentioned. Maybe they just like me as friends… it doesn’t matter.
The point of the blog is asking if women are done with men after 55.
I wrote earlier that no, I am not. I am just beginning with a man I never thought was possible.
And as for the statements about we should be doting on our grandkids, that is so silly. Some women don’t have grandkids. Some women don’t have kids. Women of any age should do what ever it is they want to do and love to do. There is no prescribed rule for women. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it more true.
JDG, Just because that is your truth it doesn’t make it true for all.
Maggie when we speak of the truth, there is only one truth. There is no my truth verses your truth. There is only true or false.
What I am finding is men who just want a woman they can talk to a spend time with… No sex has ever been mentioned. Maybe they just like me as friends… it doesn’t matter.
But it does matter because many women have posted on this very thread how they can sexually/romantically attract younger men in their senior years. This is the impression you gave when you wrote about the 30 year old who wants your companionship. If you are being honest then I can only conclude that you do not understand the male mind.
What’s worse is that many of these gals have left or driven off men that would have been a comfort and strength to them in their older years. Now they try to convince themselves that they are better off when in reality they are lonely and miserable.
The point of the blog is asking if women are done with men after 55. I wrote earlier that no, I am not. I am just beginning with a man I never thought was possible.
I wish you well, but when I read this:
And as for the statements about we should be doting on our grandkids, that is so silly. Some women don’t have grandkids. Some women don’t have kids. Women of any age should do what ever it is they want to do and love to do. There is no prescribed rule for women. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it more true.
… and I have my doubts. No rules means anything goes. No good can come from such thinking.
Silly is spending your whole life in selfish pursuit of self gratification (doing what ever it is you want to do). No that is worse than silly, it’s foolish. Getting married when young, staying married, being a good wife, and having children should be the default goal for MOST women. To say otherwise only reveals a lack of understanding in biblical principles, societal necessities, and biology.
I LOVE THIS ARTICLE! Seriously. I freakin’ bow to the author(s). It’s a perfect work of art in the world of internet trolling.
JDG sez:
I’d argue that such a thirty-year old is much more likely to have some weird granny fetish going on. There are these people — same as there are dudes and chicks into bondage, midgets, trannies, zoophiles, pedophiles, furrys, etc. It’s a very strange and unsavory world.
Honey, this isn’t wimminz studies class. We’re mostly men here, and we argue like men. There is no “your truth”. There’s only truth. Google aletheia for more on the process of unconcealment if you’re really interested in how it’s found.
Men face facts. One of these facts is that no man finds a fifty-year old granny even remotely attractive sexually, aside from the husband of her youth, with whom she has lived faithfully. As I said above (many, many months ago), one tell that a 45+ woman is not a filthy skank-ho wimminz is the fact that her husband is still hot for her. A man’s dick responds to a good woman, who has served her man over much of her life. He can bad mouth her all he wants when he’s with the boys, but if he’s still checking out her ass, he’s not really angry.
All other normal (not fetishist weirdo) men see a woman of that age as about as attractive as a lamppost, and just as useful. This is the truth. It’s better to just accept it.
Regards,
Boxer
I’d argue that such a thirty-year old is much more likely to have some weird granny fetish going on.
Boxer the following is a general idea of what passed through my mind after reading your comment:
Okay… wait… what? No that’s not… okay that’s just sick.
I was, this week, waiting in line at the bank. At the counter, a woman aged about sixty (who said she married in 1973) was engaged in a discussion with the teller. It transpired that she still worked but her husband a few years older than her was now retired. He was sitting on a chair some feet away from the counter, reading a magazine. ”It is a bit unfair you having to work whilst your husband doesn’t” said the female teller. The woman agreed as she looked over her shoulder at her husband to see his response. ” You could get yourself a new husband” said the teller. “I could” the woman said “but, you know, I really can’t be bothered now”. Again she looked over her shoulder at her husband to see his reaction. This was an entirely good-natured yet somewhat surreal exchange. Notice the implications:
1. Women wanted to work outside the home but then complain when men (who have worked until sixty-five) are now retired.
2. That getting a new man would be plain-sailing for her – she wasn’t fat but any looks she had were long gone.
3. That abandoning her husband whose fault it can hardly be that he is now of retirement age would be an entirely fair and reasonable thing to do even as he accompanies her on her shopping expedition.
JDG wrote to Maggie
Silly is spending your whole life in selfish pursuit of self gratification (doing what ever it is you want to do). No that is worse than silly, it’s foolish. Getting married when young, staying married, being a good wife, and having children should be the default goal for MOST women. To say otherwise only reveals a lack of understanding in biblical principles, societal necessities, and biology..
Yes that would be silly indeed. Man, do I ever hate having to “explain” myself but here goes. I married again (after the bad check husband) and we were married 29 years. He developed medical issues at the beginning of the marriage and my life consisted of ER visits, working daily while he could not help financially and I also dealt with his temper because of all of this. So, faithful I am. Hard working I am. No self gratification. I knew I had to stick this one out and I did it with love and patience. God gave me grace to do so.. 1 miscarriage. No children. So I guess grandchildren are kind of out of the question. Would love it, but it isn’t happening.
He passed away a while back.
I don’t expect any kudos for doing what I knew was right, but the best years of my life were spent feeling unloved and unappreciated.
So can we just leave my character out of this please?
Boxer, Your last comment, that men find older women as attractive as a lamp post has been shot down time after time on this blog alone! That is what I mean about truth. Just because you or others here don’t see it, doesn’t make it not true.
To start with I don’t look like and I am not a granny. I am part Finnish and have long blonde hair I wear in braids and do crossfit so I am not showing up as a granny. This 30 year old had no idea how old I was. When I told him he barely flinched but I could tell it surprised him.
Men see women all the time that something about them attracts them. But mainly, it’s the smile and the openness to another human being and listening that people, not just men find attractive.
You seem like quite the character, Boxer. Enjoyed your response to me.
@Dalrock
I’m NOT good with computers. A few days a week I am at the home of my elderly parents, and I use my mother’s computer while I stay here. It was on my mother’s computer that the error message occurred. I tried a couple of times in a row to access your website and couldn’t, but later things went back to normal.
As best I can recall, the error message was simply that the website that I was trying to access was not safe and had been blocked. No details were offered.
If you would like to send me your email address, I will try to collect more data if it ever happens again. Has anyone else reported having similar issues?
This computer has Windows 7, Internet Explorer (64-bit) and opens up in Bing.
@maggieblack,
Most pornography, which men of all ages consume, consists of women in their late teens and early 20s.
I don’t think there’s much of a market for over-55 pornography, outside of weird fetishes.
Your argument boils down to “I pretend to look like a younger woman and sometimes I’m successful at fooling them.”
@Boxer
Nice work. “Enjoyed your response to me.” I wish there were a way to respond forcefully to these folks without engaging their attraction.
I don’t expect any kudos for doing what I knew was right, but the best years of my life were spent feeling unloved and unappreciated.
While I have no way of knowing for certaun whether or not this was you (and of course you’ll deny that it was), I’ve observed enough women in the situation you were in to know that the default attitude that most, if not all of them take in such situations is one of “Man, this SUCKS! I did NOT sign up for this!* How dare this asshole ruin my life like this! Do I really have nursemaid him till the day he croaks?”
If this was you, then your late husband certainly detected the attitude, as it was too obviously and powerfully projected to be ignored. This no doubt served only to aggravate an already deep-seated sense of frusration, shame, inadequacy, and despair he was feeling over his condition, leading to his expressions of anger, frustration, and resentment towards you, becoming a vicious cycle of anger, pain, and hopelessness for you both.
I’m not judging you here, because if your description of the past is accurate, fate placed you in an awful situation. Fervent and constant prayer, the support of loving family and a strong church, and an ability to muster every ounce of inner strength (with help of these other two things) were the only way to survive this intact and with your soul free of eternal danger. From the sound of it, none of these played any pat in that phase of your life, which is most unfortunate. Attempting to re-live your 20s, however, will neither erase the past nor lead you to a happy future.
(*Yes, you did, when he put a ring on your finger and you both uttered the words that included “in sickness and in health”)
Re: security warnings
Firefox shows a warning symbol (exclamation mark inside triangle) next to the URL for this page. Clicking on the symbol brings up a box that states:
Connection partially encrypted
Parts of the page you are viewing were not encrypted or the encryption is not strong enough before being transmitted over the Internet.
I’ve noticed this warning recently on several sites – not just yours. The reason is that, as a response to Snowdengate, WordPress and many other sites have shifted from http to https; and browser suppliers are trying to become more strict with their security warnings.
It will take time before these changes are fully debugged, and the problem with the current page appears to be a WordPress misfeature.
The post by P Ray on June 27, 2012 at 6:39 pm contains an image which WordPress caches at “https://i2.wp.com/i.imgur.com/85Yef.jpg”. The misfeature is that the “cache” is simply an HTTP redirect to the original image location at “http://i.imgur.com/85Yef.jpg”. When the image is loaded from its plain http site, it causes the entire page to be reported as “partially encrypted”.
In this case, it so happens that the original image is also available over https as “https://i.imgur.com/85Yef.jpg”.
You could try raising the problem with WordPress: if they are unwilling to actually cache the image on a WordPress server, at least the WordPress script that creates the HTTP redirect could check whether the target image is available over https instead of plain http. Sites such as imgur.com could be whitelisted, so that the WordPress server software does not need to attempt to fetch the image over https before creating the redirection script.
Another issue that may cause a problem in some browsers is that the https certificate for *.wordpress.com does not identify its owner (Automattic, Inc). Automattic should buy a more expensive certificate that identifies the owner of *.wordpress.com. Since one certificate covers all wordpress.com subdomains, this purchase will not break the bank.
Security issues of this kind would be extremely important when using internet banking. For a blog, they are not important at all. However, the browser issues the same warnings in both cases.
Dear John N:
I think at around 40 or so, a wimminz’ options become so limited that any male attention they receive is misinterpreted as sexual interest.
“He responded to me, therefore, he likes me” seems to be a nearly universal setting for these wall-hitting, dried-out spinsters.
Best,
Boxer
I think I will stop wrestling with the pigs now. They like it.
maggie you like it too.
@James K,
Indeed, I made a post myself from imgur and Chrome refused to render it all due to the mixed content. Using https:// links instead did the trick.
I was just reconsidering this topic as it popped back up in comments. Of course most women are done with men when they HIT 55. What are they withholding in negotiation a mean 55 year old body? What a bargaining chip, huh? In economics I believe this position is called capitulation. Can’t get anything from men any more based on manipulating them sexually, might as well quit altogether.
And in keeping with the comments I would posit this: +30, +40 and granny/mother fetish is a tacit acknowledgement by some men that these women have decreased in SMV and are thus now more available. Availability can be arousing. Add to this the desperation that starts in these women as they realize this decline in their SMV and some guys are going to smell chum in the water.
@God is Laughing
Indeed. Even with women as young as age 37 or 38, gaming / dating / sleeping with them is like shooting fish in a barrel. It’s analogous to the situation that used to be with overweight women in the 1990s.
No man in his right mind is going to marry / commit to one of them.
John, desperate enough to come here to convince men that they still have it is a slow moving fish in a very small barrel I think.
@God is Laughing
What should give us pause is how rapidly the situation with overweight / obese women changed – they have no problem getting men to commit to them who are 2 or 3 points higher in SMV. If men continue to be so thirsty, the same thing is going to happen with dried up 55+ spinsters.
Obesity causes a decrease in fertility, superannuation even more so. Luckily these women won’t have many children to torture. God is good
@God is Laughing
Indeed, God is good, who creates the universe by orderly principles. Thus, adherents to death cults who hate children have few or no children. People who love life have lots of kids. The meek truly shall inherit the earth.
I read an article that covered two large surveys asking men and women who divorced 45 and over if they WANTED to remarry and women overwhelmingly said no. Most men said yes, but only about 30% did remarry,for whatever reason.
Women have options now of dating or living together that are socially acceptable and they are more likely than ever to be financially independent and they don’t seem to prioritize marriage later in life. It doesn’t mean they aren’t interested in men. Also, AARP did a study awhile back that found about 30% of women in their 50s were dating younger men. They also had little interest in remarriage.
Judging from the comments, I’m sure people on this site aren’t aware of it but numerous studies have found male fertility declines rapidly with age and there is a huge increase in the risk for both miscarriage and many different genetic disorders, especially for men 35 and over due to lower quality sperm. The number of motile sperm has dropped significantly even by 30 and there is a rapid drop at 35, along with increased dna damage that’s causing problems with genetic illnesses. A study at the University of Otago found some of the traditional sperm parameters decline rapidly at 35 and others at 40. Researchers are now looking at a woman’s odds of getting pregnant based on her PARTNER’S age. A study at Bristol University found 1 in 7 men is clinically infertile by 35, the same number true of women and a recent study at the U of Otago found 1 in 5 will have fertility problems in their late 30s. These men are 3x more likely to need ivf, according to a study in Norway. A study at Sheffield U in 2005 found a 50% decline by 40 for most men. A large French study found women in their late 30s were twice as likely to get pregnant by men under 40 and had fewer miscarriages as well with younger, more fertile men. A study at Hull Univ in 2002 found about half of young women with men in their 40s still weren’t pregnant a year later. Numerous miscarriage studies put women at a higher risk if their partner is 35 or 40, depending on the study.
Studies in fertility clinics and the first studies on mice found a rapid decline with age and increasing miscarriage rates, as well.
A recent study found a 60% increase in risk for blood disorders that impact 1 in 20 children when a man is 35, and even women in their 20s have a higher risk for Down Syndrome with men 35+. There is a 30% increase in the risk for Autism Spectrum Disorder when a man is 35 and the largest study ever done on autism found paternal age to be the biggest risk factor. Another study found a 70% increase in the risk for epilepsy if the man is 40 and mental retardation has been linked almost exclusively to paternal age. Then there is schizophrenia, lower IQs. poorer school performance overall, Noonan Syndrome, etc.
Statistics don’t lie but, do not tell the whole truth. Polls are biased because they are not the opinions of everyone…why do you think the presidential
popularity poll is always at least 35% no matter who is in office!
A little about myself and opinions.
HS diploma and BA just worthless pieces of paper that was a waste of time and money after learning to read, write, and basic math. REAL life is the greatest teacher of our soul and mettle!
The world is filled with educated derelicts.
I have not always been a pessimist; when I was a young man, I was optimistic about the future of the world. “Like a Rock” is my self proclaimed song.
Ever since I was child at the age of understanding, approximately 7 yrs old, I thought what people now call “outside the box”. I have and will always be passionate, compassionate and benevolent to my fellow human beings. I don’t care what others think of me, I have my own expectations to live up to and I have discovered that the only reason we are in this world is to better ourselves. I am not here to serve anyone and no one is here to serve me. In The Bible, woman was not taken from the foot of man to be below him, nor was she taken from his head to be above him, she was taken from his side, to be by his side. This is also known as teamwork, sharing the same goals and fulfilling each others wants, needs and desires.
Women in general think with their hearts and emotions. Real men think critically with logic or common sense, like talent, you either have it or you don’t.
Always been self-motivated and very active, still in touch with my inner kid, toys are just bigger and more expensive. Money and a job is just a necessity, not a life. Freedom is a fantasy, we are always jumping through someone’s hoops. What it all boils down to is this…all we really have is each other.
This post is intended to hopefully enlighten some to the truth that cannot be measured. Then again, it’s just my real life educated opinion.
Do not pity me for my pessimism or choice of solitude…it is not required nor welcome and would be considered an insult to my intelligence.
At 53, I am done with a commitment on any level to a women of any age! I am altogether, not altogether on anybody’s side cause no one is altogether on my side. All I have ever wanted was female partner that complimented my strengths and weaknesses and mine hers. She simply does not exist. I chose to adopt principals and morals of good men starting with my dad and many in history, some from The Christian Bible and others from personal experience. I foolishly believed that women have done the same. Only a handful of men I trust as far as I can throw them and call friend.
Most of what I have witnessed in this slave driven society (economics) is the attitude of instant gratification and “the world revolves around me!” I have heard that we are supposed to be evolving each generation, yet I witness more cowardly, vain, selfish, drug induced ignorance to the point where most don’t have a clue what they want or how to achieve it. Lies fed to us, (literally too), by our education system, our churches, our government, our industries, our pharmaceuticals. This “comatose” gene pool is so wonton we have lost the “one simple truth”…LOVE! It and common sense is the true measure of intelligence, not some IQ test. Very few understand what it really is and all it is comprised of.
“Soul mate” has become a hype and used out of it’s true context at random just cause its something to say and is used as freely as “heart n soul” in romantic phrases; a contradiction in truth because the heart and soul in one in the same, the phrases are lies used in the game of control, manipulation and seduction of both sexes.
All holidays are a joke. Give and pause once in awhile to meditate on our loss and gain whenever you want, not just cause some holiday says its time to do so.
Love is a choice, therefore an action. There is nothing magical about it; the euphoria comes from bonding, (connecting), on many levels, when its given back and hence, the momentary sexual desire of oneness.
Trust, forgiveness, giving of oneself to another freely without expectation and just excepting another for their strengths, weaknesses and willingness to discuss those differences are too simple. Its human nature to take something simple and unbroken to complicate and destroy it. Either boredom or habit, we just gotta eff it up! We have forgotten words like humble, content and therefore will ever pursue the other word; happiness. Communication and honesty have become fantasies. All anyone seems to care about anymore is themselves. Materials, vanity, and a total disregard of the significant others needs have become common-place among both sexes. We can’t give what we don’t have. Lastly, the one true super power we all possess is the power of CHOICE!
I adore this post. The comments here are truly a gift that keeps on giving.
Men in their 50s and 60s want women in their 30s and 40s. That leaves women in their 50s slim pickings in the smaller pool of single men in their 70s and 80s. I’m a 55 year old single female, active, healthy, and working. I don’t want a rickety retiree to entertain and nursemaid, thanks. I’m perfectly content being single and I’ll just stay that way.
That leaves women in their 50s slim pickings…
Yep! Take note you younger women, If you don’t want to guarantee being alone in your twilight years, choose a mate wisely while you’re young and stay faithful once you commit.
Lots of pessimism here. Maybe rightly so. As we age, most of us are towards everything or certain particular things. Men in their 50’s realize they are not going to be sexual mates for anyone. Most women are the same way in their 40’s. Many make last gasp efforts to bond in this way, others accept their fate, and try to find meaning to life in activities, religion and friendships beyond the couple bonding. We all need cared for and to care for someone else emotionally, physically and spiritually.
@JDG
I would disagree that women in their 50s are slim pickings. Most of them are anything other than slim.
@Willis
Men in their 50s are not exactly “done” being sexual mates. It’s pretty easy for a guy in his 50s to score with women in their 30s – certainly a lot easier than it is for a 38 year old man to secure an attractive 18 year old woman.
In nursing homes, the few guys left alive have their pick of the litter of the women in the nursing home. Talk to any CNA that works in a nursing home about this. They get pretty annoyed with (a) old people having sex (gross), and (b) all of the women fighting over the same limited pool of guys.
It’s always been a man’s world and always will be.
After reading all of this I feel really fortunate that at 60 I have reconnected with my high school sweetheart and we are like 7th graders again. I don’t feel old, and neither does he. We laugh all the time and Neither of us ever thought we would find this kind of love in our lifetimes. So, no, all women are not done with men after 50. I am actually, for the first time enjoying a man. And no, neither of us is over weight. We both work out and look good for our age.
Whenever I’m bored, or I start to question hypergamy and Red Pill, I just toddle on over here and see the latest post.
Like a Snickers bar, this thread satisfies.
LOL… toddling and boredom. How old are you? Never mind… we are only as young as we feel.
Glad it doesn’t take much to satisfy you.
Little_Genie says: we are only as young as we feel.
Today I feel better than I did yesterday. I feel stronger, faster, smarter, and my body doesn’t ache as much. Are you telling me that I am younger than I was yesterday?
Yes, you had a younger, better day. I hope tomorrow is even better. As a chronic pain sufferer I know that for me on days I don’t hurt as much I feel lighter, freer and even younger!
@Little_Genie, I’m young enough to be your son or your grandson.
im 67 handsome ret have anew car some money nobody to travel with actually,women dont give me the damn time of day. its as if im invisible
Well with most women today being very high maintenance, independent, selfish, spoiled, and very greedy, certainly speaks for itself.
My husband divorced me when I was 36 (we were married at 27), no reason other than he didn’t want to be married anymore. He was my best friend and we had 3 kids together… to this day, I don’t know what happened. Once I got over the shock and heart break, I put myself back into school and got a nursing degree and MBA while raising my daughters. I did not date because life was hectic enough making ends meet and going to school, Now I have a good job and I started dating 2 years ago. I am now 50. After dating for 2 years I am over it. I found that younger men (30s and 40s) matched my energy and interests much more than men in their 50s. I have met some nice guys on dating sites, but I have to weed through a lot of scammers and incompatible guys! It is tedious and hardly worth it. I go through times where I would like to be married again, to being very glad I am not married or in a relationship – especially when I see what other people are going through in their relationships.
Don’t get me wrong, i love sex and wish I had someone around more often for that kind of fun. I was in a quasi relationship with a 52 year old man and became very fond of him-however he was in love with a 30 year old woman he met months earlier and she wanted nothing to do with him. At the end of every date, he would get very sad and start crying about her – dude really?? I tried to be understanding at first, but realized I was just a rebound and he was not going to get over her and I was tired of it. As soon as I told him I was going to be dating other people, he got very upset..but I felt like it was a 3 way relationship with him and it was not fair to hurt me at the end of every date.
Some guys I date now still have young children and are not always available. We might go out once every other month because I work every other weekend as a nurse. Let me just say, I have had to lower my standards a lot to date at all and I’m thinking I have more fun with my girl friends than I do with any of the guys I have dated.
This article is the greatest article in the history of the internet, I sweartagawd. It just never stops pulling pay.
You say you are 50 years old, a career woman and a divorcée — yet you talk of “lowering your standards”.
Since you can’t see what’s right in front of you, here’s the news: you are meeting and dating the men who are your equals in the dating market. Your standards are figments of your imagination, and your ego is simply out of alignment with reality.
You are not attractive. You are not a catch. If you want to be with a man, then humble yourself and quit playing the fool. If not, then be a WGTOW and get out of the dating market entirely. I promise, no one will miss you.
Regards,
Boxer
Dear John N:
I realize this is a months late reply, but I just saw this response, and had to admire it fully.
It struck me a while back, while I was pondering the Planned Parenthood baby body-part videos, that perhaps in a cold and Machiavellian way, the abortionists are performing a long-term service.
Whether behavioral traits are passed on through biological or environmental factors, there is little debate that they are passed on. Those most likely to get an abortion are society’s failures: blue-haired radical feminists, irresponsible party girls, slutty wimminz who have sex with strangers in the night club’s locking public toilet, etc.
This does not excuse the people who profit from the slaughter, nor does it lessen the culpability of those who have engineered a society to pander to the basest forms of behavior imaginable. Even so, perhaps it is better that the radfems and the losers are not able to propagate their lunacy as effectively as they might — by having lots of kids who will become the next generation of idiots to be loosed upon the world.
Feminism may thus be appreciated as a self-limiting ideology, and this monstrosity is a curse that these broken idiots have placed largely upon themselves. Healthy families don’t run to the abortion mill when mom gets pregnant. Only idiots and feminists do this.
Best,
Boxer
When I was in my mid thirties I met a 49yo woman online, she initiated and generally pursued the relationship with me. It went on for nearly a year and I’m not entirely sure why, it was never going to culminate into what she wanted, marriage. I enjoyed the relationship, got caught up in the fun and emotion and honestly, her success. Some older women who have been successful think they can truly pull off a LTR or even marriage to a much younger man, this one had a million and would inherit at least that much more. It almost never happens and when it does it never lasts. Men are not attracted to what women find attractive in men, its never going to work.
We’re in an age where many women lie to themselves for years about their realistic prospects in a mate and end up alone and often angry, even bitter about it. Meanwhile the men who hold out, those few that do, end up single and feeling pretty damn good about it. I’m 45, well off financially, able to attract significantly younger women for dating, marriage or whatever. It’s never been easier for me to date and yet I’ve never cared less about it than I do right now. Relationships with most women, let alone marriage, in their mid 30’s is more trouble than it could ever possibly be worth. Relationships/marriage to women my own age, What the hell for? Any woman at or post menopause that thinks she has the slightest chance of pulling off anything real with a younger man of any status at all is completely delusional.
Women aren’t like men. Wake up, feminism lied.
@Boxer:
You beat me to it. This is still the best thread ever. The responses are always the same. It’s wonderfully instructive.
My husband divorced me when I was 36 (we were married at 27), no reason other than he didn’t want to be married anymore
Nope. Sorry, but I’m raising the Bullshit Flag here.
NO man divorces his wife after nearly a decade of marriage and three kids “for no reason” and just because he “doesn’t want to be married anymore.” At that point in his life and marriage he’s invested too much of himself and his resources for such a frivolous move and would suffer negative ROE if he divorced on a lark. There most assuredly was a reason (or were multiple reasons) why your husband left you, reasons that made remaining in a marriage to you less tolerable than the terrible costs and risks the characterize divorce. You either couldn’t see it/them or just didn’t want to acknowledge it/them. I’m pretty certain that an even casually observant third party to your marriage could have pointed them out to you.
Feeriker, which part don’t you understand? ‘It just happened’, but in more words. Don’t poke for skeletons in the closet, because you might find something.
@feeriker,
“NO man divorces his wife after nearly a decade of marriage and three kids “for no reason” and just because he “doesn’t want to be married anymore.”
I second that.
I have a female relative that thinks this also. But, she was rebellious, headstrong, competitive & selfishly ambitious – not a helpmeet, a compulsive spender that refused to stop her credit card bingeing ways. Her ex told me that he had to do credit consolidation loans 3 different times to clean up her credit card habits. He divorced her because he thought they would never have any ability to retire. Not a valid, Biblical reason to divorce but that is why he pulled the eject lever.
@ feeriker says:
September 13, 2015 at 1:35 am
“NO man divorces his wife after nearly a decade of marriage and three kids ‘for no reason’ and just because he ‘doesn’t want to be married anymore’.”
I’ve seen it before. Some men just aren’t marriage material, and some of them get married anyway. It rarely goes well. That may not have been Lisa. RN’s experience, but it does happen.
I’ve seen it happen too. Let us remember, though, that Lisa wrote:
Once I got over the shock and heart break, I put myself back into school and got a nursing degree and MBA while raising my daughters. I did not date because life was hectic enough making ends meet and going to school, Now I have a good job and I started dating 2 years ago. I am now 50.
In other words: Lisa decided unilaterally not to pursue a relationship, when she was at her youngest and cutest. By her age, this was way back in the 1980s, when men were much more naïve than they are now. Lisa was likely an edgelord feminist who “didn’t need no man” and was “doing it for herself”, and who shot down all those handsome and eligible men with the captain save-a-ho streak who wanted to ride in and rescue her.
Now she’s whinnying because she can’t find any more chumps who are willing to blow money buying her dinners and taking her to the Duran Duran concert… which was so much more common back in the good ol’ days. Boo hoo. lol
Boxer
There are older women who are only interested in younger men. I’ve met a few of them. The funny thing is that most of them don’t realize that, if they are sufficiently sexually arousing, younger men will have sex with them if they make themselves available for that, but only a very loserish younger man would marry or have an LTR with an infertile older woman.
@ Boxer says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:24 am
“I’ve seen it happen too. Let us remember, though, that Lisa wrote:
Once I got over the shock and heart break, I put myself back into school and got a nursing degree and MBA while raising my daughters. I did not date because life was hectic enough making ends meet and going to school, Now I have a good job and I started dating 2 years ago. I am now 50.
In other words: Lisa decided unilaterally not to pursue a relationship, when she was at her youngest and cutest.”
I agree that Lisa’s story smells like BS. That’s why I stated, “That may not have been Lisa. RN’s experience”. However, we need to be truthful and acknowledge that some men just aren’t cut out to be husbands, and that some of them marry anyway, and that it typically ends badly.
Even in those cases, the woman bears some responsibility. After all, she chose him. But let’s not pretend that all men are of noble character.
She now has gotten large and out of shape , we have had no intimate relations for the past 4 years … what is a man supposed to do ?…
Some of my male Christian friends have argued that polygamy is not expressly forbidden in the NT; I am not yet fully convinced though.
A recent study found a 60% increase in risk for blood disorders that impact 1 in 20 children when a man is 35, and even women in their 20s have a higher risk for Down Syndrome with men 35+. There is a 30% increase in the risk for Autism Spectrum Disorder when a man is 35 and the largest study ever done on autism found paternal age to be the biggest risk factor. Another study found a 70% increase in the risk for epilepsy if the man is 40 and mental retardation has been linked almost exclusively to paternal age. Then there is schizophrenia, lower IQs. poorer school performance overall, Noonan Syndrome, etc
I am very reluctant to believe any so-called studies from these feminism-tainted research centers. The results above sound more like a hatchet job to scare men into becoming fathers earlier than they would otherwise have done.
Men generally produce new sets of sperms every 60 days, and this continues throughout life, as long as they maintain their male body parts and have a normal level of testosterone. Any study that claims that an average, healthy man aged 35 years is at a significant risk of fathering an abnormal child is most likely a faulty study. More important than age would be the lifestyle of the subjects, as well as their family histories.
A 35 year old man who has engaged in very unhealthy habits such as excessive eating, drinking, smoking and the like, or has been exposed to radiation injuries, etc, is far more likely to have abnormal kids, particularly if he also has a strong family history of inheritable diseases.
If it is bad for a 35-year-old man, it is even much worse for a woman of the same age, since a woman has had all the eggs she will ever have when she was born as a baby, and these eggs are forced to experience everything the woman experiences throughout her lifetime. For a 35 year old man, the oldest sperm in his body is only 60 days old. For a woman of the same age however, all her eggs are at least 35 years old, and they decay exponentially. At birth a woman has approx 2.3 million eggs in both ovaries. At puberty, they have reduced to about 270,000, and they continue to decay everyday.
The notion that a 35 year old healthy man is at a significant risk of fathering abnormal offspring should be taken with a heavy dose of salt, as it runs contrary to what has been observed in history.
I see you’re unfamiliar with my history on this forum. Watch and laugh as I introduce the obvious to the butthurt masculist crowd, who imagines that men can do no wrong, that polygyny is a great idea (totally compatible with Christianity and advanced civilization) and that all the world’s problems lie in the lack of sexbot technology to aid the incels.
Always happy to help…
Boxer
@ Boxer says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:15 pm
“I see you’re unfamiliar with my history on this forum.”
No, I’ve read a few of the posts you describe above. I was just explaining that we’re on the same page on this one. Probably – at least in part – because we each have at least one such relative.
That’s one advantage of being born to a very large family (my Dad is one of 11, and my Mom one of five). You get to observe all types, and learn.
In other words: Lisa decided unilaterally not to pursue a relationship, when she was at her youngest and cutest. By her age, this was way back in the 1980s, when men were much more naïve than they are now. Lisa was likely an edgelord feminist who “didn’t need no man” and was “doing it for herself”, and who shot down all those handsome and eligible men with the captain save-a-ho streak who wanted to ride in and rescue her.
Um, no. If Lisa is 50, she was born in 1965. If she married at 27 and divorced at 36, she was married in 1992 and divorced in 2001.
when men were much more naïve than they are now.
Don’t think so…
Are women done with men by 55? Some are just done with men period, no matter the age. Having worked in a retirement community though I can tell you that the some of the divorced and widowed older people date each other, but they do not want to move in together. But that time everyone wants their own space and enjoys the freedom of living alone.
@embracingreality hit it on the head.
No one divorces for “no reason”. Anyone who wants a reason to divorce can think one up as there is no such thing as a perfect spouse. Men think up dumb reasons to divorce as well.
Lisa, you don’t live anywhere near W. Palm Beach, FL, do you? Dating in your 50’s is very frustrating for both sexes, no doubt about it. I think online dating is mostly a waste of time.
when men were much more naïve than they are now.
Don’t think so…
In 2001 I was still in the dark about a lot of things, but getting a clue. In 1992 I was clueless.
@ feeriker says:
September 13, 2015 at 1:35 am
“NO man divorces his wife after nearly a decade of marriage and three kids ‘for no reason’ and just because he ‘doesn’t want to be married anymore’.”
Not All Men Are Like That. Saying that “no man” would divorce for no reason is like saying that “no man” would quit a decent job without having a better job lined up first. Some people, both male and female, are simply highly impulsive. They lurch from one unnecessary crisis to the next throughout their lives.
Men today aren’t at all like the men fifty years ago. My father was a good man, didn’t say much except what was nessessary. I mean he didn’t have time to shop for expensive basketball shoes and my parents shared a car that was just a car not this bagged truck that had a sick stereo and the best speakers money can buy ( usually stolen) men worked to provide for their family. My dad worked 6 days a week at the same job after retirement from 25 yrs in the navy. My father never yelled curse words at our mother. My dad was home every night same time. He worked to provide for us and he never complained about either. My father was faithful. Both my parents respected by everyone in the community. They didn’t have bill collectors looking for them. They lived with in their means. The one near thing was the whole family plus his baby sister ended up working at the same place. So we got to spend more time with him. My father never hit us, or our mother. For me I’ve been in a search it seems my whole life for a guy like my dad. Oh and I forgot to say that my father had arthritis so bad that he was told he was going to be a cripple and be confined to a wheel chair? He was in pain daily. He got gold shots in his elbows and ankles and kept on working. He never acted like he was just a work horse. We spent every Sunday together. My father came from a childhood that at 16 he was lying about age to get into the NAVY. He would send his paycheck to his mother who was raising his two baby sisters alone. His father was a player who drank and gambled and womanizer all women even married ones ( they had those kinds back then too) his father had a lot of angry men hating him and in a fight one night after a had poker game his father killed a man on accident but knew he would never get a fair trial so his father left when my dad was only 8. It was a hard life for my father who worked very young selling papers and working at the local grocery store cleaning up everyday for the owner who paid him a dollar a day. My grandmother worked several jobs. My father said he saw his mother tired in a tattered worn out dress scrubbing floors for someone and he went off and got into the navy. The first thing he did was buy her a new dress. My mother lived right next door to my father growing up. She was five years younger. She always had a crush on my father. He thought she was a snot nose kid until he saw her again when she 17 and he home for holidays. She had gone from lanky stick girl to curvy fun happy girl. She brought out the best in him and vise versa. My parents were married 49 years when my mom passed away in 1986 to cancer. I was only 26 and my son was six. My father missed her so much I know. Men usually marry because they know a good woman is like a private nurse and the pluses out weight the negatives. But an old man usually is grumpy and less helpful. I always figured its from working their whole life. Their bodies taking a beating. For me at 56 years old three marriages under my belt ( I just like it I tried three times) and two sons, a stepson, five grandchildren later , I want to do what and where I want to go and do. I don’t want to spend my last years taking care of some old man unless I absolutely have to. I’ve taken care and been by the sides of both my parents my father and mother in law, and other family members in my years on earth. I kissed boo boos, bandaged lots of scrapped up knees. And sacrificed a career for something less so I could take my babies to work with me. Today’s men have no respect for their mothers it seems. People are heavy in the “NARCISSIST” as the norm mindset. It’s not two people one mind but more like your mind is my mind to control. It’s not a perfect world and that’s because computers and cell phones and our government brainwashing us via our TV , music, social media . We don’t have grounding any more. Our lives we have given up to big brother. Our right to bare arms is being ripped from us and everyone has a felony it seems. Innocent people screwed over and our prisons full of people who can’t handle being in society. Once out they do what they can to get back in. Babies at visiting in prisons just groom the next generation to accept that it’s part of being a man, a father etc etc. CORRUPTION IS EVERYWHERE. We have lost faith. I don’t need a man to sponge off me. I have very little, yet I don’t qualify for many programs because I make more than the income guidelines. It’s sad. A person had to work well into their 70’s if they hope to live s good life. If I found a wealthy older man to travel with that I got along with perfectly I’d consider it. But marry him? Well him maybe more than the bum guy who goes from woman to woman living off her that seems to be the trend in 2015, tell me if I’m wrong.
If a woman had a good father , she always compares a potential husband to him, if she had a bad father, she just thinks all men are terrible.
My wife and I have made plenty of mistakes, but as each of us continues to evaluate our lives, I think we both know we are better off together than apart. Never was perfect never will be perfect. Never will have sexual relations again, but any alternatives are not very enticing.
Kim,
Reading your post reminds me of how bad things have become. Though I feel bad for you, your ex-husbands, and most of all for your children, I can’tell help but answer your question with, YES you are wrong.
A lot of men today have been raised by divorcees and baby mamas. Maybe that’s why the guys you know like to mooch. Had they been raised by their fathers they most likely would have been different, and in spite of the epidemic of single moms there are plenty of hard working and reliable men out there.
Nevertheless, I implore you on behalf of men everywhere, DO NOT MARRY again. You will save all concerned much needless torment.
In addition, I would like to point out that we are told how bad men are EVERYWHERE else in the media. Why do you feel it is necessary to come here and do the same?
I’m 55..and look no older than 35
.max. I have guys that are 20-40 that want to be with me..Why would I want to be with a guy in their 50’s when most likely they haven’t taken care of themselves over the years..and are very rigid in their thinking and outlook…its not like im gonna marry these guys..and I talk to them very easily as I would talk to someone of a different age..what does it matter..and women do NOT need to be labeled..or called a name because “society” frowns upon it..if men can date way younger women…so CAN we.
Brand new :
Woman in Western Australia loses $300K to Nigerian Romance Scam.
I’m 55..and look no older than 35. max. I have guys that are 20-40 that want to be with me..
They want to be with you for sex, which I guess is what you want too. Do as you like but don’t blame folks for knowing what you are. Also, looking 35 means you look old to most guys in their 20s and 30s.
“..if men can date way younger women…so CAN we.”
They’ll be with you for a quick fuck but they won’t marry you (unless they’re idiots). So whose stopping you? There’s no law against it. Go for it.
Heck Kim, you dad was destroyed by feminism, rejoice!
Lol Ginger, using her body to teach young men. Good on you!
You do have to wonder whether Ginger is a man pretending to be a woman, for her comment is the stuff of Manosphere cliche but as JDG rightly says men in their twenties do indeed see women in their thirties as old. When men get into their thirties they still see women of their own age as too old, which is then exacerbated by women in their twenties being hot for them.
One of the great myths is that post menopausal women, no longer having the burden or fear of pregnancy become more sexual. Nothing could be more further from the truth. Part of sexuality is the possibility of pregnancy. Remove that and women are not motivated at all for sex.
Well now that most women today are very high maintenance, independent, selfish, spoiled, greedy, and money hungry, it is very difficult for many of us Good single men that used to be married at one time to meet another Good woman again to have a serious relationship with. And many women nowadays just Can’t accept us men for who we really are anymore since many women today have their Careers now which many of them will Never Ever go with a man that makes much less money than they do since many of the women want the Best and will Never settle for Less.
Very much wanting and needing sex and cuddles at age 59!
I am a very youthful 57 and look 35. As a young girl in my twenties and thirties, I was rarely asked out by men. Well, married men asked me out all the time! I hated those buggers. I was told I was very pretty, handsome pretty and very sweet. I still get told all the time how “nice” I am. I have slept with few men and those men that I did have long relationships with never wanted to marry me because I did not have a career (not enough money or power). But they loved to sleep with me. I never married or had children. A late bloomer, I became quite successful in my forties. I put all my energy into my career. I have money and properties. I spend all my time alone. Any friendships I had with women usually ended up them being jealous. ??? I am very friendly, kind and can be a social butterfly. I am told that I am beautiful. The reason I do not go out with men is because I am not a serial dater. I would love to meet a caring man, and yes, my true blue soulmate. I am my own best friend. Successful, content and happy whether I am alone or with a man. I did not need a man when I was young and I do not need one now. But to love, to have a Ronald and Nancy Reagan or an Elizabeth Taylor-Richard Burton type of love (without the alcohol), yes, I would take the risk and go for it. Men today have lost the art of courting a woman. They want to shove their tongues down your throat and have sex after one date. Nothing has changed since i was a young girl. I am not interested in these types of men. I’d rather be alone…
Kathy:
If that were true, you wouldn’t be here complaining about it.
Regards,
Boxer
Boxer, don’t be ridiculous!
Two points :
I am a very youthful 57 and look 35.
This first sentence alone is so predictable that it might as well be computer-generated.
Secondly, I am seeing a growing number of women who are oblivious to the concept of paragraphs. Women really are devolving, reverting back to a prehistoric state.
Kathy is all but certain to lose all her cash to a Nigerian romance scam.
If you ‘don’t need no man” then you shouldn’t have gotten married.
That kind of love is extremely rare and almost always just a ferry tale. But I’m with you on the alcohol business. Anyone who plows themselves with alcohol or drugs is an idiot.
Women are so entitled now why would a man want to marry or court a woman? Most of them are good only for fucking (and some of them aren’t even good for that).
It’s only going to get worse.
Sounds good.
That’s either a masterpiece of projection or it’s a poor joke.
Intellectually satisfying with a bunch of women over experienced men? Yeah, right. That’s funny. Nice try though.
Here is a good place to park these links of how easily middle-aged women are getting duped by the Nigerian romance scam (despite being ‘done with men’ at age 55) :
San Jose woman loses $500,000.
Canadian woman loses $1.3M to Nigerian dating scam.
Woman loses $300,000 in Christian Mingle dating scam.
Melbourne woman loses $350,000 to Nigerian romance scam.
Virginia woman loses $140,000 in Nigerian romance scam.
Oregon woman loses $400,000 to Nigerian email scam.
Perth woman loses $300,000 after falling in love with fake Facebook profile.
Wellington woman still misses Nigerian lover’s fake identity after being conned out of $100,000.
These are just the six and seven-digit amounts. Five-digit amounts don’t get press. But I bet these totals ended where they did only because the woman ran out of money.
These women are so desperate for a man that they keep falling for this. The women commenting on this thread can expect to join their ranks soon.
D,
I have a comment in moderation, because it has 8 links to women age 50 and over who lost it all to Nigerian romance scams….
I love this thread. It’s the schadenfreude humor thread that always just keeps giving. At least few times a year, some Woman shows up, having read nothing really of the thread, and proceeds to be example N+1 of what was being talked about. Though I’m noticing a trend of “50+ looks 35”. Apparently 35 is the “sell by date” that Women are using now. Which is about right, on the average, fertility completely collapses at 36.
Kathy,
Boxer is right. You clearly want what you cannot have. You gave the milk away for free and now you wonder why men your soulmate won’t line up to court you? You have already proven you have a low price. That is apparent to others, at least the ones who got you to give them free milk in the past.
Why are you hear at all otherwise?
Note that you may look good for a 50 year old, but you do not look like a hot 35 year old. You may want to look at different 35 year olds if you think you are that hot.
Men today have lost the art of courting a woman.
That’s largely because today there are no longer any women worth courting.
No man needs to/wants to “court” a slut whose legs open faster and easier than an umbrella and who spreads easier than liquid butter.
Courting can only be used on women below 20 years of age. It’s wasted when they are older.
Nevertheless, courtship was an oppressive tool of the Patriarchy and thus evil and we don’t want no evil in our new, progressive marriages. In fact, marriage is a tool of the Patriarchy as well, used to control women, so that will have to go too. Come to think of it, Kathy is lucky to have escaped being a wife and mother and instead becoming a empowered 50 year old slut! This is great news!
Moar power to you, Kathy! Now go slut it up like a proper Cougar! You’ve worth it!
… You’re….
I am a very youthful 57 and look 35
Are you malnourished or what?
This response by Feminist Hater is funny and sarcastic, but it also contains much truth.
At the end of a pathetic life, which is merely a progression of one very poor decision after another, the typical feminist will appeal to the rebellious nature of younger women. She does this not to help her little sister, but to lead her further astray, into the mire of feminism. The feminist knows that her only hope at happiness is to make other women just as miserable as she is.
Boxer
Also, thirty five year old women are not hot, full stop, period, end of sentence.
FH, some are because so many younger women are so unappealing. Hotness is somewhat relative.
(That doesn’t mean she is as hot as she thinks, but she is likely comparing against a very unattractive pool.)
FH, some are because so many younger women are so unappealing. Hotness is somewhat relative.
(That doesn’t mean she is as hot as she thinks, but she is likely comparing against a very unattractive pool.)
Yeah, I suppose if Kathy doesn’t have any tats or piercings that that might be a small factor in her favor (although I’m seeing more and more middle-aged women following their daughters’ leads and inking up their skin. *VOMIT!*)
Wow. I used to post on this forum a couple years ago but not since then. I have not been following this thread, so some of this comment may be misplaced, but it this last comment compels me to say a couple of things… First, I am 60, was married once for 20 yrs, 2 kids, divorced for over a decade. Lots of dating. Finally have found someone that I might marry. I don’t see any of this stuff as being particularly related to Christianity. I was raised Christian but am not today; I’m mainly Buddhist. I dated a Christian lady for a long time… boy was that a waste of time…but not because she was Christian, really, but it made her not accept me completely. My girlfriend today is not a Christian, thank God. And, God is not a Christian. As far as morality and a model for marriage… gee, I haven’t really seen too many good examples out of Christian friends, family, etc… I just this this is totally independent of religion, quite frankly. Now, education… yes. And religious education may be part of that. Also, this forum is not really just for men. Many women comment and I think their comments are very helpful for the men… discussion with women is one reason I participated in the past. Finally, the original question of the forum has to do with whether women after 50 want sex. At the time, several years ago, I was very frustrated and felt that women over 50, most of them did not want sex. Partly this is because of the experience with the Christian woman, ha ha. But after more dating experience, I can unequivocally say NO, not true! MANY women over 50 want sex and I’ve dated a couple (including my current girlfriend) who want lots of sex. So you can forget that idea… if you’re having that problem, it could be because of who you’re dating, or it could be because of something else. Best of luck to all, and God bless (everybody’s God, not just some conceptual Christian God who is somehow different than the other Gods…. guess what, they’re all the same God!)
There are plenty of hot “looking” women in their forties and into their fifties. Hotness though applies to more than looks though.
Wow… is right. I am shocked by the negative and judgemental posts on this blog. I feel no need to respond to these people who fail to understand that their mean-spirited comments speak volumes about themselves.
Jim, Victor and Robert, i enjoyed reading your comments and opinions. I also think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A woman’s essence is her beauty. If a woman has revolting energy, it doesn’t matter how “hot” she is, she will be “unattractive” to others. This applies to men as well.
Although I find this topic very interesting, I have a favorite blog site where intelligent people from all over North America discuss a wide-range of topics: politics, love, world affairs, religions, environmental issues, etc., in a kind and respectful manner. We may not always agree with what is being said, but at least no one attacks anyone in an ignorant and negative manner.
I have a philosophy: Be kind to everyone and never speak ill of anyone.
That said, this will be my final post… I wish everyone a safe journey. And Jim? You never know, I just might meet my “Reagan” fairytale love!
Lol, shut up slut. Leave the blog, don’t come back. Ciao!
Your so called philosophy has an exception. Never speak ill of anyone, unless it’s men, then that’s okay. You did it right in your first post. So, shut up, go away, do not return and screw you.
Kathy,
You were the one making the claims of looking 15-20 years younger. Don’t raise points you don’t want commented on.
Victor,
Congrats on throwing aside the moral constraints that limited your libertine impulses. You can now freely act however you want, at least until Judgment Day.
You are wrong though, Jesus is God and you will have to deal with Him at some future point. How many you led astray is going to have some consequences. Enjoy your sin for a time!
And Jim? You never know, I just might meet my “Reagan” fairytale love!
Uh huh. And alligators will start doing somersaults, pork will become a menu staple at kosher restaurants, and Oprah Winfrey will marry Steadman Graham, give birth to 12 children, and live happily ever after.
Reality and the 21st Century western woman: a pair that will never be introduced to one another.
@ Victor
You do know that Buddhist don’t believe in a god right? So you are contradicting what you claim to believe when you say……
“And, God is not a Christian.”
“everybody’s God, not just some conceptual Christian God who is somehow different than the other Gods…. guess what, they’re all the same God!)”.
Why don’t you first go and get your ducks in a row before you let rip with your incoherent drivel.
Incoherent, eh? Are you a Buddhist, or have you studied it in some detail? What may be at issue is one’s concept of God, and your concept may be somewhat inflexible. Gee, I remember why I quit on this forum before…all the drivel! Thanks for the reminder. But, I don’t recall it being a religious forum…it was about women and men over 55.
I think you’re on the wrong forum Victor, this is most definitely a religious forum.
Have you looked at the early posts and the stated subject of the forum? Look back at the beginning. Even a year ago this was not a religious forum. Clearly it has evolved into one, which is fine, but it seems odd when the lead question (appearing in the address line right now!) is “are women done with men after age 55?”
And, I believe my comment was about religion. But that’s my last comment, fire away as you like.
@Victor
So are you saying that Buddhist believe in a god?
You are the one who brought your religion into the forum and attacked Christians with “not just some conceptual Christian God who is somehow different than the other Gods”. So where do you get your “I don’t recall it being a religious forum” when you made it an issue in your post?
Might want to cut back on that vegetative meditation exercises and dumbing down mantras.
So get your ducks in a row before you let rip with your incoherent and hypocritical drivel.
“Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” 2 John 1:3
I have been on this forum since 2010, it has been a religious forum all that time. I don’t know what you’re smoking.
Victor:
Technically true perhaps. Even so, our host is a protestant, and many of his articles here deal with theological and spiritual matters. We should be respectful of our neighbors.
On a more general note: It’s unmanly to come into someone else’s home and complain about the furnishings, or to demand that people accommodate your whims. This sort of thing is what feminists and crypto-feminists do here. If you don’t like the company, then the best course of action is to start your own free wordpress blog and get to writing. With any luck, you’ll attract people with whom you have more in common.
Regards,
Boxer
Victor, thy artless, beef-witted codpiece of prattling is naught but the froward and dizzy-eyed view of a hedge-born lout. Satisfied with the well-chewed and tough teats of aged strumpets, sirrah, I bid you to be about their enjoyment with such festering, puss-laden harpies that possess them and look to those such as thee for their succor.
In other news, Toad has discovered the Shakespeare and Luther insult generators. Zounds, but it has been a fine day.
@Boxer
Is there a Mormon version of the word “poltroon” or something that translates as such into LDS?
This post would be on Dalrock’s Greatest Hits if there were such a thing.
This post has just passed its fifth birthday. Five years is a long time in internet years; it’s an eternity in the manosphere universe.
Here’s the pattern.
Some 50+ year old woman finds this post after a google search for “misogyny” or “do older women still like sex” or somesuch other thing. Woman reads post and comments, gins up outrage-o-meter. Comments in a huff about either
(1) “I am 55 years old and I am SO DONE with men! Men ain’t shit! [Insert story about horrific divorce and man from hell here.]
(2) “I am a 55 year old (or 79 year old) knockout, and I still love sex. In fact after my divorce I hopped right back on the carousel. I have a date tonight with Luis, the concierge at this hotel I often stay at. Tomorrow it’s with Phillippe, my law partner’s secretary.”
Amazing, isn’t it, how so many women come here to femsplain how they (1) are so done with men and don’t need sex; or (2) are so not done with men and love having sex?
So depressed reading these comments…I am a 51 year old US born male who hasn’t had sex in over a year and only had one true relationship with a Latina that lasted 2 years (I broke it off after the jealousy lectures got to me – I was faithful). My love life is over I guess…I tried some dating sites and nothing but I did get some free personality tests and found out that older African women dig me (I am caucasian) – I love all types. Maybe we all need to be honest and just pay for sex, since love is ethereal and only lasts 2 or so years before the endorphins drop back to normal levels. So what is stopping the transaction from happening and what would be the social implications? It is already prevalent in so many countries. Before you bring on the negativity, let repeat some words of wisdom about the pursuit of happiness and that many Gurus state that our purpose is to be joyful on earth.
@WorldTraveler: Check out Rollos blog and in particular Ya’Really ‘s contributions. You have created your own cage and there IS a way out. 51 years old doesn’t mean you can’t get with 30 somethings and there are a LOT of post-menopausal women who literally crave the presence of men.
Pro Tip: Women want a LEADER who will take them by the hand and lead them to a better place emotionally, financially, and psychologically. Let me guess that is not you right now- so work on it.
Well the financial aspect is not enough for Civilian women, but enough for the Angels of Love (they are better anyway – let’s be real no?). If you have the financial aspect, then how do you discern the true love vs. only interest? A dog is so less complicated and so far, they still shower 110% affection and they don’t spend one second on a smart phone either.
hmmm I just turned 58 a couple of weeks ago and I am female and i have dated plenty. Some younger some older. The oldest is 70 the youngest was 47, not sure why people don’t either think they are attractive or men that think women over 55 are unattractive. Let me just clue in the 50’s gentlemen and try to put this as nicely as I can….you all are not all that great looking!! As a matter of fact women these days are taking far better care of themselves than they used to. What stops me from a relationship and I have turned away 3 men that wanted marriage, is one thing I have no desire to take care of a man. I raised 2 kids mostly alone, cared for both of my late parents. I have financial freedom now and am getting ready to retire early before 60. I would love love love a man with a similar background that wants to enjoy me and all that i have to offer! He must understand though that I do not want to live with him or marry him 🙂 I find that some men just want casual sex and others want a “nurse with a purse”. Men at my age are very afraid of dieing alone or want to know they have someone to take care of them.
So bottom line have i lost my desire for men, absolutly not!!! and in my opinion i would not trade my experience in and out of the sack with a girl half my age. LOL we older girls laugh at them and their inexperience 🙂 And bonus i don’t have to worry about carrying around tampons anymore!!! hell yeah!!!
Secondly, I am seeing a growing number of women who are oblivious to the concept of paragraphs. Women really are devolving, reverting back to a prehistoric state.
It looks like Patty is the latest example of a functionally illiterate middle-aged woman who can’t write a coherent thought (although she did apparently try to belatedly create a paragraph at the end of her rant, probably inadvertantly).
I’m going to quit visiting this thread when lost random women periodically drop their graffiti. I can’t remember the last one whose illiterate scribblings didn’t give me a headache trying to render them into intelligible English. It’s not worth the effort or the headache. The rest of you guys are welcome to knock yourselves out with that.
feeriker,
Patty is likely typing with her thumbs on a smartphone. The triplicates of exclamation points, the LOLs, and the smileys all coalesce into a perfect melange of sophistication and understatement. Yes, any man of that certain age would be lucky to have her. She has so much to offer.
The lower-case i’s are another nice touch.
Patty is likely typing with her thumbs on a smartphone.
She might also be drunk. I probably should have factored that possibility in as well.
Lol, no man has gone near Patty in years. She’s probably here looking for some male attention.
The thread that will not die!!!!
@anonymous_ng:
Nope, it won’t!
Five years and counting.
Lol, no man has gone near Patty in years. She’s probably here looking for some male attention.
Please be nice to Patty. If you were in her shoes, you’d be doing the same. Or worse. After all, she has a lot to offer, though men like you can’t seem to see how wonderful and how sexy and how fabulous she is, even at her age. Dalrock should have put an instruction on his site to help women like Patty upload their pictures when posting a message. She just turned 58; she has a full life ahead of her still. Doesn’t life begin at 60? You go, girl, Patty!!!!!!!!
LOL I think it’s funny my post pissed some of you all off so much, that was not the intention. It was merely to shed some light on how some women my age feel. I do believe that is what the subject is about or maybe I am wrong.
Sorry to offend with my lack of grammar skills.
I’m over 50 and so is my husband, we’ve been together 20 years. By the definitions here on this site, we are both sluts. We both were married twice and divorced. I never took any alimony or support from either of my husbands, I actually left them better than they started out because I’m from a single parent family and my Mom gave me a great work ethic. I had a hysterectomy when I was 35, lived 4 years on Premarin, by the time I found out the danger, my DHEA, (youth hormone) was that of a 80 yo woman and believe you me I was starting to look and feel like one. So I got on Bioidentical Hormone Replacement Therapy, put my husband on it too. We laugh all the way to the bedroom. My advice, instead of trading in your wife for a newer model, do yourselves both a favor and get on BHRT, it’s cheaper than a divorce. If my husband were to die first, I doubt that I would remarry, I won’t ever find anybody like him, he may not be this site’s idea of an alpha but he’s alpha enough for me, and I never was the skinny, pretty little tanned bodied gals everybody likes. That okay gals with white hourglass bodies and lots of testosterone have their own set of admirers. I cook, clean and do laundry. I don’t mow though, don’t want to get a tan on this alabaster skin. BTW, he is unemployed now and so I’m supporting us both. Good thing he didn’t want a traditional wife or we would both be out on the street.
Dalrock,
Please feel free to insert paragraphs since the guys are having a hard time reading.
This is the thread that doesn’t end, it goes on and on my friends,
Some Hamsters starting spinning, not knowing what it was,
And they’ll continue spinning forever just because,
This is the thread that doesn’t end…
Pearl
if you are regularly sexing your husband i would worry about what is spoken about here. consider yourself special and have pride in it. BTW if he is sexually attractive to you he is alpha.
Enjoy your time in this world
This is the thread that doesn’t end, it goes on and on my friends
One of these days, MAYBE, one of these drive-by sadsack(ette)s will leave something original that’s worth reading. It’s starting to get really tedious and stale now.
Sluts?! No, never something so benign. What you are is an adulterous whore, far worse than any normal slut.
Good day, whoreslut!
Thanks greyghost,
I am and he is.
My beautiful wife always tells me how some women are so cruel to one another. After reading some of the postings here, I can see what she means. These pathetic, spineless hecklers who have nothing to add except for their insincere and intellectually vacuous, mindless rhetoric because they themselves are lonely and haven’t been laid since the ole’ king died.
Sociobiology is a load of garbage and is just an excuse by men to act like assholes to women. You paint yourself is woman-hating filth.
My wife and I are married for 33 years on top of 7 years dating. Our 4 children’s are adults and we have 4 grand kids. Our love are first love. We had always enjoyed our lives together raising our kid. She is 55 now and I am 56 and still raising 2 grand kits for 9 years now. For about 2 years ago she start telling me that she is loosing sexual appetite and she ask me to have patience with her. I believe she was going trough her menopause and hot-flesh so I kept my calm. About 4 months ago things started to get worsen for me. Now she want to divorce me. She can not explain the feeling, she just want to be left alone. She is feeling miserable. She don’t need no men and don’t want to be with any men either. She is calling herself a “walking dying flesh”. I never thought that something like a divorce will ever knocking on my door. I feel destroy and whatever I try doesn’t change the ordeal. I am looking for answer until I found Dalrock website. I had read many testimonials that really help me better understand my situation. But why a divorce an not just a temporary separation? She scared the hell out of me and now I really don’t feel attracting to any woman. I just become scared to start any relationship with woman. It is a scary feelings that cuts deep into my soul.
Robert – there are a lot of useful and informative comments here, but they will be of no use to a man who puts women on a pedestal, unless he is willing to unlearn what he has learned from a decaying society more than 50 years into feminism.
Susan, unfortunately women tend to be attracted to A-holes. Instead of commenting on something you know so little about why don’t you do something useful and make a man you know a sammich.
Luis – I am sorry for your plight. This society has become a horrible snare for women. Unfortunately, like so many other Western women, your wife has become another participant in it’s sadistic, self serving rituals. I pray that God will give you the wisdom and strength needed to get through this time of tribulation.
– 150 years into feminism.
@ Luis
Ditto JDG’s comments. You didn’t mention whether or not you are a Christian or attend church, but if you are and do, I highly recommend that you seek out the counsel of an elder, pastor, or brother who can offer you prayer, encouragement, or even practical advice based on experience. Your wife is making a dreadfully rash mistake in seeking divorce, a decision that is going to have ugly long-term consequences for her that she will very soon deeply regret. Much prayer is in order. And may she also receive counsel from a wise older Christian woman who will point out the error of her ways (yes, it’s true that “wise older Christian women,” a.k.a. “Titus 2 Wives,” are as rare as four-leaf clovers these days, but may your wife be blessed with one such in her [and your] hour of need).
Hang in there, brother, and God bless.
pearl,
A man cannot be a ‘slut’. Shows how much you know.
You swindled two men, and are in the process of swindling a third. Shame on you.
pearl,
Divorce leaves no one “better off.” It may be necessary in some cases, but it is never something to be proud of.
@ feeriker,
We are born again Christians. She is attending church and she just went to church this morning again. I explain to here what the Bible teaches about divorce. However she become like a deadlock window. I appreciate your advises. My spiritual live has been going through some troubling time for some time now. I never lost my faith and hope. Her spiritual live remain steady for all the time. However, it is her decision for the divorce no matter what. She told me that perhaps one day she will overcome her situation and we can come back together again. Very tough for me to understand and accept. The Christian way of living has change in so many way lately, that it put’s someone in a difficult position of who to trust with your sensitive and delicate private life.
What had happened with love when it become contrary to this truth? 1 Cor. 13
I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.
She told me over an over again that she still loves me, but she want her divorce. So sad, so confuse, so painful. I doubt that she feel what I am feeling. I love her and want to be next to her. However, she is destroying me from the inside out with her decision maybe for better or for worst.
@ JDG, Thank you for your prayers and thoughts.
@Luis:
There’s likely another Man. Or her mind has convinced her there’s a possibility of another Man. It’s extremely rare a Woman jumps ship without a fall-back Man. (They rarely plan that far ahead.)
You probably should hit the guys up here: https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill They’ll be more able to respond and help. This is a 5-year old Thread and so responses aren’t easily seen.
But the lesson you’re going to need to learn is how the Lord has displayed His love for Israel in the past. With visiting severe pain upon the wayward. Nothing your current thinking possesses will address the issue. She has set her heart on obliterating your Marriage. Thus, you *HAVE* to change the way you act. You are not going to “logic” her out of it. Only decisive changes in your actions will have any effect. I don’t even your situation, but your wife has made choices. And two of those choices is to not follow the Lord and not follow you. You will need to lay punishment in accord with those decisions. Godspeed, brother. And may the Lord guide your actions.
I feel for Luis Larmonie. At common Law a man could physically chastise his wife though whether that ever worked I do not know. I am reminded of that as I am presently being pursued by a fifty-three year old – and I am not interested if for no other reason than I am friends with her husband. I wrote to him yesterday to complain about his wife’s behaviour. He responded with ‘what can I do?’ I responded back to that by saying that she is his wife and it is not thus for me to say how he should control her behaviour. He claims to be powerless. This is an entirely unsatisfactory situation where the last thing I want to do is go to the police to complain about Stalking for in my experience that only encourages them. It also looks to me like a ‘lets you and him fight over me’ situation where in fact neither of us want her for her husband has taken up with a woman half his age. You don’t get much by way of part-exchange on a woman age fifty-three, but male SMV can still be pretty high in the mid-fifties age as my shameless friend (whom I have remonstrated with about his adulterous behaviour) is proof of. He is immune to reason though I am not the only one that has had a go at him. ‘and you claim to be a Christian ‘ I say to him, but he brushes that aside too. An erect Penis has no Plan B. His girlfriend is in my view seriously bad-news but he will not see it as he is one of those men whose tight-Game is to cave in to any female (other than his wife). She knows he is married with a family, who need him who has worked his way up this past quarter century to a very comfortable life-style and that Divorce will cripple him financially as well as separate him from his children and send his wife into a hopeless cycle of misery interspersed with one-night stands. No good can come of this but the Bitch who is fit, childless and single and whom many single men might want is intent on wrecking my friends family. Bitch. I seem to be receiving the shrapnel.
Take note of all the contentious cunts gentlemen and tell me something….Why am I supposed to marry again? MGTOW’s been great to me. 🙂
This article is truly limitless in scope, timeless in potential.
@ Looking Glass,
Thank you for your advises.
@ Opus,
Thank you for your support.
We should move Luis’ discussion to more current threads, so that we can better provide the help he needs, on an ongoing basis….
Luis,
Tough situation. I have found that women will often justify almost anything. That seems to be the consensus of many here. Not much you can do to convince her at this point, but following some hardcore practices that may being called “dark game” could have merit. I would not recommend any immorality, but stopping efforts to save it at all costs will likely put you in a better place.
She will do what she will do. Make sure that the consequences are as clear to her as possible and give up pining after her the rest of your life or you will just end up miserable while she ends up feeling justified.
It sucks, but life can go one. Don’t be as nasty as some may recommend (if you want to follow your Christian values), but don’t be a doormat thinking that is the right way either.
Find some here to try and connect with if that is at all possible. Lots of reasonable advice here, even if it may vary.
Side question for Dalrock or others: Any way to see “Recent comments” past the ones shown on the list in the upper right? I have seen replies to old threads more than once on a tablet or other device and then could not find them later since they scrolled off.
My impression is that when a woman says, “It is over,” there is nothing more one can do.
My impression is that when a woman says, “It is over,” there is nothing more one can do.
Other than making sure that she suffers the full consequences of that decision, you’re correct.
@Avraham rosenblum
This is nearly always the case. The exception that comes to mind (and proves the rule) is if the woman decides divorce would be harmful to her personally. One of the patterns my wife has commented on is she has never caused a divorcing woman to reconsider by explaining how much this will harm her children. However, if the woman becomes convinced that divorce will harm her personally, suddenly she will have a change of heart “for the children”.
But the husband is in a poor position to deliver the message that divorce will harm the woman. Another relative might be able to, as might another woman. The most effective focus is generally on the woman’s realistic dating/remarriage prospects. This is most easily framed as “You know how men are. They are too selfish to commit to an older woman/woman with children!” This, along with pointing out the real life results of the divorcées the woman knows (not the marketing job, but the details of the real replacement man).
Focusing on finances (especially finances alone) is unsuccessful because the woman assumes another (even wealthier!) man will swoop in and take care of her once she jettisons her boring loyal dude. The most effective person to deliver the message seems to be the woman’s own son. If her son tells her how pathetic the mothers of his peers have become post divorce, this is incredibly effective. I suspect this is because the son is the very person the woman is counting on for sympathy, provision, and protection should her treachery prove unprofitable.
If everyone thought like that, no marriages would ever have survived. It is the reason why we now have no fault divorce and cash and prizes. You are a serious pussy worshiper. Either we hold women to their agreements and their vows or we get rid of marriage.
The only words needed in the problem above should be: “Suck it up, buttercup!”
I am 27 and ‘done’ with men so to speak.
I was sexually abused and raped from a very young age and for a number of years by someone I trusted immensely.
Of course not all men rape but honestly I have no respect for men as a whole. The male ego is very fragile and all it takes for a nice guy to turn cruel is one independent free thought from a woman.
My life consists of travel, freelancing, volunteering, animals and my friends and I am very happy.
No doubt men would perceive me as damaged goods without considering that the man who harmed me was more damaged than I could ever be.
I don’t feel robbed of normal relationships with men because I feel many men are quite selfish, egotistical and cruel and secretly believe women to be lesser.
Many men perceive women only as sexual objects, mothers or maids and if, as a woman, you wish to do something different they will slander you until you fall back into line.
The most rewarding relationships I share are those I have with women. These are not sexual relationships but noone can understand the female experience better than other women. Men rarely hit the spot emotionally, mentally or let’s be honest ladies physically but being around a tight knit group of women is rewarding and fulfilling to me in ways I can’t explain.
Ever Since the the concepts of cougars and milfs flooded the internet pornography sites they have been giving women plenty of opportunities with the youngest dogs butts in heat so why shouldn’t they just pitch those men in their 50’s.
They’ve been in essence offering,as far as I can tell a sex apprenticeship program like no other.I could never throw someone away as easily as they do nowadays.Women in their 50’s are settling more and more everyday for the frustrated juvenile honky swashbucklers seeking the easiest cache of trophies for their mantles and they get someone that ‘ll dust it too! At 55 I have been assumed to be looking for a nurse made or riddled with E D.I graduated high school too long ago to find any 56 or 57 teen year old’s worth the time!Sadly.
Go away, your technique of trying to get men to care won’t work. You can do whatever the hell you want, just don’t come crying back to men when it all fails.
Bye.
Dalrock said :
One of the patterns my wife has commented on is she has never caused a divorcing woman to reconsider by explaining how much this will harm her children. However, if the woman becomes convinced that divorce will harm her personally, suddenly she will have a change of heart “for the children”.
This is damning proof that women don’t care about their own children. Men are the only parent who put the children ahead of themselves, which is why children grew up with both biological parents only back in the days when men had some rights..
We all, I am sure, have the greatest sympathy for Karla being as she says and from her youngest age a perpetual rape victim, but it is a curious fact, indeed a most surprising fact, is it not, that Rape Culture of which Karla must be a victim has come into existence – and we must here credit the Feminists for their stirling work in bringing this evil to light – only at some time since the ending en masse of sexual chastity amongst young women. Women have, since casting off the shackles of patriarchal repression, become strong empowered and confident in their own sexuality, yet this has only emboldened men to adopt this nationwide culture of forcing women to indulge and against their will with men sexually.
We need Roissy, as I am lost as to the reason, to attempt explanation of this strange occurrence.
@Karla
“I am 27 and ‘done’ with men so to speak.”
Then why do you feel the need to tell your story to men you don’t know?
“I was sexually abused and raped from a very young age and for a number of years by someone I trusted immensely.”
Did you report it to the police?
“Of course not all men rape but honestly I have no respect for men as a whole.”
So why do you feel the need to let strangers know about it? Seems you are projecting.
“The male ego is very fragile and all it takes for a nice guy to turn cruel is one independent free thought from a woman.”
No more than the female ego. That is why you are here to get the attention from men. Even strangers.
“My life consists of travel, freelancing, volunteering, animals and my friends and I am very happy.”
No you are not. Otherwise you wouldn’t feel the need to tell your story to men you don’t know. You are trying to fill you live with distractions.
“No doubt men would perceive me as damaged goods without considering that the man who harmed me was more damaged than I could ever be.”
No you consider yourself damaged goods because you lack the ability to trust men.
“I don’t feel robbed of normal relationships with men because I feel many men are quite selfish, egotistical and cruel and secretly believe women to be lesser.”
How do you know what a normal relationship feels like when it requires you trusting your man.
“Many men perceive women only as sexual objects, mothers or maids and if, as a woman, you wish to do something different they will slander you until you fall back into line.”
Many women act like prostitutes, self-righteous kindergarden teachers and money sucking vampires and if a man highlights these issues he is slandered and belittled until he falls back into line.
“The most rewarding relationships I share are those I have with women.”
Well perhaps you should get out more.
“These are not sexual relationships but noone can understand the female experience better than other women.”
Then why are you here on a male blog talking to men about your story?
“Men rarely hit the spot emotionally, mentally or let’s be honest ladies physically but being around a tight knit group of women is rewarding and fulfilling to me in ways I can’t explain.”
But of course my dear. However where three women are together one is an adversary to the other two. Which are you?
@ Karla:
TL:DR….go pick up your mattress, and you and it go talk to your therapist. You need professional help.
@ Karla:
TL:DR….go pick up your mattress, and you and it go talk to your therapist. You need professional help.
Like most such women, “Karla” isn’t really interested in “help” or in any way changing her life for the better. If women of the 21st Century are able to learn nothing else from life (and obviously the vast majority don’t), it is that being a professional and perpetual victim is infinitely more rewarding than rucking up, sucking it up, moving forward, and leaving the past behind (i.e., taking responsibility for the rest of your life).
The very idea of overcoming the past and living a fulfilling, baggage-free life probably makes Karla ill.
You just described women. Nice projection.
This thread is just wonderful. It really never ceases to produce amazing results.
As for all of the “Karla”-like Women, I honestly don’t believe their stories. The warped mind of a fallen Woman can, over many years, completely invent many events. I know terrible things happen to children. I also know the actual rate is extremely low in Western countries (outside of Muslim populations). So either we get to hear every horror story that has happened in the West, or a lot of Women are lying. I’ll assume the latter until proven otherwise.
Opus – We need Roissy, as I am lost as to the reason, to attempt explanation of this strange occurrence.
Opus the explanation is simple. It’s because of Patriarchy. No wait, its Patriarchy and men. No wait. I have it now. It’s Patriarchy, men, and sammiches.
There see, it’s simple. All the troubles associated with, all the bad decisions made by, and everything that has gone wrong for approximately half of the planet’s population (the female sex) can be blamed on Patriarchy, men, and sammiches.
Aren’t you glad we have someone like Karla to remind us of how its all our fault? It’s not like Academia, the Media, or the Government would already have that covered. We need the Karla’s of the world to come here and tell us because … Patriarchy, men, and sammiches.
I just turned 70…broke up 6 months ago with my girlfriend. I knew that the pickings would be slim, but OMG, the number of fatties out there is incredible.
Very interesting article. Thought I’d toss in my own experiences as a 58 year old woman.
My Status: Widowed
Dating and remarriage interest: So-so
I was married very young: I was just 17 and my husband was 23. We had a very happy, very successful marriage which produced two stunning daughters. Quite literally, we grew up together. We were together long enough to reach the point of “sweetness” that is hard to describe. We’d seen so much, endured so much, struggled and fought and made up and learned and got to the point where the joy and the understanding was palpable.
After my husband died, I drifted. About a year and a half after his death, I started a relationship with one guy. In a nutshell: Total waste of my time, but ended amicably. I bear him no ill will, but absolutely no interest in repeating the mistake.
Now, being the age I am, I’m not eager to jump into dating or relationship. For one thing, as “johnny2down” revealed in his comment:
“I just turned 70…broke up 6 months ago with my girlfriend. I knew that the pickings would be slim, but OMG, the number of fatties out there is incredible.”
men at any age tend to objectify women, while, no matter how old, wrinkled, and saggy they actually are, simultaneously maintain the absurd view of themselves as fabulous stallions little changed from the prime of their youth. A laughable double standard, to say the least. Bloody hell, it’s mind boggling. The expression, “tosspot” springs to mind for some strange reason.
Addressing the “lack of emotional range” observation of women my age: My sexual drive is actually stronger now than when I was young. I’m more confident and assertive and relaxed. I’m also NOT active. I will never have casual sex, no will I ever again allow myself to become entangled with a man outside of wedlock — primarily because I am a Christian and I take my Faith seriously.
Here’s another little thing about sex… I am content without it. Hard to believe a human being can find intense satisfaction without sexual interaction, I know, but it IS true. Tell you what I miss most: my husband’s mind. For me, a sophisticated, engaged, multifaceted, intellectual, articulate, God fearing mind is the most stimulating “sex organ” there is. Oh, how I miss the conversation! The joy of exploring thought together and the intense bonding it provides. And the deep bond of years of time together… it just can’t be recreated.
I am not closed off completely to the idea of finding a new mate, but the truth is, I’m in the “fewer years left than have lived” stage of my life. It’s NOT that I don’t have the emotional range, oh, no. It’s simply that am wise enough to admit that I do not have the time or the energy to piddle away contorting myself into unrecognizable shapes to suit the ridiculous demands of a selfish, childish man.
I spent my youth investing my emotions and energy adapting to the desires and needs of my husband. I had the time and energy to spare then, and he was worth it because he, too, adapted to meet my needs. Men like this that are available (most are married and NO, God does not send you someone else’s husband) are few and far between. I’m certainly not going to waste my remaining years pining away and being sad about it, though! LIFE IS TOO SWEET AND WONDERFUL FOR THAT!!!
Women don’t understand how men think, and men don’t understand how women think. I’m generalizing to make a point. The lack of inventory prohibits men and women of ANY marital age from having a mate, or permanent mate. Women may or may not be “done” with men. We like the freedom after a certain age from taking care of children, fetching for a man who thinks he has to be waited on hand and foot (not all men fall into this category, but for the sake of argument, women who are tired of intimate male company tend to have had this experience), men who refuse to acknowledge the social and intellectual needs of women suffer from a woman’s frustration of finally realizing she is a person and doesn’t need feminism to confirm her identity. We simply don’t “need” a man like we did when we were young. We don’t need to bear children, take care of a home, maintain a career, and do a “thousand” other social requirements to feel needed, fulfilled, and wanted. Many of us are content to fixate on social causes, help those who cannot help themselves, fulfill our role as caretaker, help younger women with their youthful challenges in regard to marriage, child raising, etc. I know married, divorced, single women who find great satisfaction with ensuring that other humans are helped, including men. We know we don’t have to play games any more to get a man’s attention: it’s a worthless expenditure of time. However, I do know women who still haven’t found their personal calling in life and believe that they must have a male mate in order to thrive and find happiness. Depending on cultural influences, no, women don’t need men after 55. We may enjoy the company of gentlemen, but we don’t need a man. We are by age 60+ networked sufficiently and found our “cause” for the rest of our lives. Men seem to often get in the way of our end of life gratification: always saying no to us, and wanting us to squander the rest of our breathing lives on his ineffective way of ending his own life without purpose. We have a purpose. Those without purpose in the end, die sooner than those with a purpose post-retirement. A man doesn’t understand a woman’s sense of urgency later in life. She has lived her life with purpose if she was married with children. If she was single all of her life, she created a life of service, or found solace in her talents. At a certain age, she is fulfilled. If she finds a man who shares her enthusiasm for life, she may want to marry for the companionship. But we are definitely “done” with the male stressors.
Wow. There are some astonishingly weird conversations in this thread. Time to sign off.
Your comment:
“I am not closed off completely to the idea of finding a new mate, but the truth is, I’m in the “fewer years left than have lived” stage of my life. It’s NOT that I don’t have the emotional range, oh, no. It’s simply that am wise enough to admit that I do not have the time or the energy to piddle away contorting myself into unrecognizable shapes to suit the ridiculous demands of a selfish, childish man.”
My response: You eloquently stated the reason so many women do not invest time in man-chasing. We’re not finding adult maturity in the aging male population. They couldn’t hold on to the first wife; why do we expect them to be prince charming the second time around??
The Thread that would not Die – showing all week in a double bill with They Saved Hitler’s Brain. I’ll bring the popcorn.
I love this thread. I really do.
Observation:
Some women on this thread seem to be offended that men are not attracted to and therefore not inclined to pursue women who are overweight. Further some women seem to find this simple reality “childish, immature”.
Obesity is abnormal.
Most of the population of human beings in the world are basically fit. The US has the fattest women (and men) by % in the world. Obesity is abnormal and it’s not being caused by geography.
The shape of a healthy human female triggers sexual attraction in men, it’s simple biology that cannot effectively be ‘shamed’ away. Don’t waste your time. If you’re significantly overweight YOU’RE ABNORMAL! Stop blaming men. Men don’t need to marry for companionship, it’s available without marriage in spades. Biblically, sex requires marriage and sexual desire in men is triggered by the shape of a healthy female body. God made it that way not men.
This has been such a long-lasting and weird thread. I messed with it a bunch years ago, then lost interest. Picked it back up a bit maybe a year ago, and it had morphed into an extremely religious thing…I was chastized about not sticking to the religious subjects. Now, it seems to be back more where it started from. But, I have to say, the number of people that have seriously screwed up ideas about dating, relationships and the opposite sex is just astounding.
You are referring to the “human experience” which encompasses all aspects of living in the body, including soul and spirit. The “screwed up ideas” are based in ideologies that have nothing to do with reality, only that person(s) experiences from whence develops a “reality” not necessarily confirmed through scientific inquiry. But then REALITY doesn’t necessarily begin and end with a test tube experience. If one brings Jehovah God and the Bible into the equation, the plethora of interpretations mixed with human experience entangle us in too many unanswerable questions. The Bible is clear on questions of morality, ethics, and relationships, including marriage. The doubts and confusion about relationships are extinguished.
It gets worse: in England, Misogyny (though not of course Misandry) is now a crime, thus apparently wolf-whistling at a woman (though obviously not at a man) is a criminal offence. Have I ever wolf-whistled at a girl? Certainly and I never had any complaints but I suppose they will get round that by saying that wolf-whistling is a form of grooming. Were I to reject (as I trust I would) the advances of women over the age of fifty-five or fat women would that also be considered Misogyny? Presumably so.
I thought I’d never tire of reading women’s screeds about men. They can be entertaining. They can also be cathartic. However, like songs and movies…..the posts have now all been written, the points all made. They may take on different cadence or usage but the handful of canned expressions of feelings about needing or not needing a man are being repeated.
Two examples of projection here. Amazing isn’t it? Just yet two more examples of failure to use a mirror. The most spoiled and entitled class of people in world history and they have the nerve to project their weaknesses and failures onto others. Typical. Not surprising but typical.
Canned expressions reveal the repetitive nature of the symptoms related to relationships. You will hear women weeping over the fact that they cannot find a companion with whom to spend their final days. Also, you will hear women lament that the current companion isn’t suitable after 20 years of marriage. They believe in their confusion that the grass is greener in the next pasture. Maybe, maybe not. You will also hear women diffuse their disappointments by stating emphatically they don’t need to live with a man. For them, the past was horrendously harmful to their well being. Then you have women who make a conscious choice to remain single for a variety of reasons. They don’t dislike men. They have many male platonic relationships and are satisfied to have those men in their lives.
Somehow I think the title of this thread is somewhat misleading. The range of emotions express cultural repressions: if a woman of average appearance tries to have a social conversation with a single man, she often is rebuffed, therefore her buildup of negative experiences causes the “wide range of emotions” to whither into a seemingly objective mode of thinking about male companionship.
Male / female relationships is a complicated issue, not to be resolved in a thread reacting to the scientific summary about women over 55. We are more complex than the test tube. The female experience is varied across the sociological/cultural/generational/lifestage sea tides. We’re addressing symptoms and not the bottom line problem.
WOMAN: Men won’t just accept me as I am, so I am done with them!
And they are all so disgusting that I cannot accept them as they are either!
====
Yeah, that sounds like some winning ideas.
Lol, I love this thread. Of course they are done with men. Men are just so immature, not needed and demand so much from snowflakes. However, it’s as if they cannot leave well enough alone. They just have to keep coming back to tell us again and again, why they really are done with men and then reasons, as if anyone really cares. Ladies, let me introduce you to Mr Wall. You can smack right into him and never skip a beat.
It’s just the usual “You have to change but I don’t!” brat mentality. I’ve seen this more times than you can imagine.
Truly they are all saying the same things with few deviations. She likes his mind….oh OK, yes and he was I am sure mesmerized with her between-squirrel-sighting yammering. Oy.
I think we’re trying to have an objective exchange. Male insecurities rise to the surface when women have a life time of dealing with men who refuse to develop. Your defensiveness is noted.
This thread can’t end until we’ve heard from the woman who has just celebrated her centennial, but was done with men by 40 and has never looked back.
I think we’re trying to have an objective exchange. Male insecurities rise to the surface when women have a life time of dealing with men who refuse to develop. Your defensiveness is noted.
Oh gosh, all this projection! We need to just open up a multiplex cinema here and cash in while the going is good.
Let me say it differently
WOMAN: Hawt men wont accept me as I am. So I am done with men who are not hawt!
Correct, That makes no sense.
I am not objectifying the exchange or anything else. Egads.
Women of this thread, where do you stand on THREXIT?
WOMAN: Men won’t just accept me as I am, so I am done with them!
And they are all so disgusting that I cannot accept them as they are either!
====
Yeah, that sounds like some winning ideas.
LOL. I agree with your insight. What is the conflict resolution solution? Are we going too far in our adult rejections of the other person? Are we not finding some common ground as adults to determine acceptability vs the physical assessment of immediately trashing the other person? Can we not on some level find a way to socially communicate? At work, do men refuse to participate in team work or projects because they detest the woman’s body morphology? Do women turn away at work because the man they see every day is not the person they choose to see after work? Where are we going with the article’s topic? Are 55+ women refusing to date or socialize with men in their life stage for what legitimate reasons besides height, weight, facial features, and body morphology? What’s the bottom line? Are these just symptoms? How do we break through the box women place themselves in so they are open to mature relationships?
C’mon gents! You must have ideas on how the gap can be narrowed or closed. (We must remember the statistical dilemma: women out number men in the US.) How does inventory impact the attitudes of women over 55? And, how do the differences in thinking between men and women influence the 55+ life stages? When we consider socialization between females and males, we can return to the years of our youth and childhood. We all played together, did we not? At puberty, girls went one way and the boys went in another direction as both groups began to prepare for adulthood and responsibilities.
Sandy Sue, you don’t get it. Women over the age of 55 are good for friendships, other than that. A man is wasting his time. It’s projection because women keep saying they are the ones done where in fact they are merely trying to get men to get up and come after them in some futile attempt to rekindle romance or something. It’s most men who are done with over 55 year old women..
It’s funny because why should men put up with the crap women keep saying? When your young, sure men will do it but as you get older and men get wiser, the time wasted and the stress caused isn’t worth it. A man would do it for a loyal woman, one who married him when she was young, gave him children and stayed with him through thick and thin. In every one of the cases of the women on this thread, they have betrayed their man and thus have given enough pause to every other man to not bother with them.
In short, there shouldn’t be single women in their late years looking for kinky times. It’s a puerile joke at the expense of women.
@Sandy Sue,
I would also note that the comment about male insecurities seems like a lot of project on the female part.
FH, my wife is over 55 and I am definitely not done with her….
Though I know I am a special snowflake, as is she. Sometimes the snowflake can seem like a Brillo pad however.
@Feminist Hater
‘A man would do it for a loyal woman, one who married him when she was young, gave him children and stayed with him through thick and thin. In every one of the cases of the women on this thread, they have betrayed their man and thus have given enough pause to every other man to not bother with them.’
You have a major point that is rehashed and discussed in marital therapy and in religious circles time and time again.
But let me interject a thought: what if it is the husband who betrays his wife? Infidelity, wife abuse, child abuse, refuses to support the family? What if she can no longer safely live with that man who is on substance abuse? What if he tries to kill her? Should she still live with him? Is she betraying him if she leaves him for safety reasons?
OK what if the man does that?
Make your own answers. But generally men do not do those things. You may suffer the disinformation that men leave women for other women and that men are abusive etc., That these are the major tipping points.
That’s why its fruitless to have these conversations. By the numbers it is not men leaving or causing the leaving. I do not care what you or your sisters or your friends all (say that you) did or experienced. Women file 3/4 or divorces. Some 4% of those have real grounds. Of the divorces filed by men, some of those are women’s infidelity and or abuse of the husband.
The math says men are head down long slog marrieds. Take that remedial info. on board, accept it, look again at the world, and then try and have this conversation.
I’ll not wait up.
C’mon gents! You must have ideas on how the gap can be narrowed or closed. (We must remember the statistical dilemma: women out number men in the US.) How does inventory impact the attitudes of women over 55? And, how do the differences in thinking between men and women influence the 55+ life stages?
There isn’t a point to it, for people of those ages who have not been married to each other all along. The opposite sex is largely superfluous once the child bearing and rearing stages are done with, for *new* relationships — the continuation of the relationship that formed that family is, of course, the ideal for this life stage. But companionate relationships between men and women of this life stage, if they are not the same relationship as the familial marital relationship (i.e., the one that created children), are far from the ideal, and are most typically very flawed and fraught precisely because they do not have that familial core as their basis. Men and women *are* fundamentally different and distinct, and transcend that in creating a family together. Deciding to play house with someone when you are in your 60s and done with the family creating phase of your life is something completely different, and fraught with huge difficulties precisely because it lacks that glue as its foundation.
? How do we break through the box women place themselves in so they are open to mature relationships?
Who is “we” and what are “we” supposed to do for someone who’s spent years digging herself into a hole?
Do you have any idea how arrogant this comes across? “There are women who totally screwed up their lives, What are you Men going to do about them?”.
Nothing. That’s what men should do for them, so long as they won’t admit to any past error, won’t try to change themselves on their own effort. Nobody does diddly squat for men as a rule even when we do admit error, we do it on our own or we help out a buddy.
Y’all are our equals, remember?
PS: This truly is the gift that keeps on giving.
Generic post:
“I’m a woman over 55 and I am SO DONE with MEN!!! But I could have one ANY TIME I WANT, because I’m HAWT, just like when I was 25!!!”
Typical feminist twaddle:
If a husband is fucking around on a faithful woman, she should first go to her father, his father, etc. and try to get him to stop. This applies double if there are children. Married men should not fuck other women. It says this in NT and just common sense. Normal family will be horrified to learn that their relative is doing this and should stand with a faithful wife who wants to make her marriage work.
If he does not stop, then she should destroy his ass in divorce court. I believe these are a tiny minority (like, less than 1%) of all divorce filings, but in these few cases, the divorce system works correctly. All throughout our patriarchal history, society stood beside the faithful party and against the wrongdoer.
The vast majority of the time, women file for divorce for frivolous, nonsensical reasons, and the divorce system treats a good man like he is the cad described above. This is what needs to change.
Boxer
This seems crass, but if she wasn’t a good woman, your dick wouldn’t respond.
The dick ALWAYS knows a good woman. If your wife still does it for you, then she’s a keeper.
Boxer
Sandy Sue says:
“Male insecurities rise to the surface when women have a life time of dealing with men who refuse to develop.”
I object. My insecurities don’t have to rise to the surface – I keep them there.
But let me interject a thought: what if it is the husband who betrays his wife?
But of course we can’t go for too long here without a BUT MEN DO IT TOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Retarded feminists seem incapable of acknowledging that healthy patriarchal society has always defended the rights of good women who were trapped in bad marriages. They do this all while tacitly acknowledging as much (it’s the premise of their argument for expanding the treatment traditionally given to bad husbands toward good ones in divorce court). Really makes your head spin, all their stupid rationalization. I’ll get back to thanking god for not making me a woman, now.
“I am not closed off completely to the idea of finding a new mate, but the truth is, I’m in the “fewer years left than have lived” stage of my life. It’s NOT that I don’t have the emotional range, oh, no. It’s simply that am wise enough to admit that I do not have the time or the energy to piddle away contorting myself into unrecognizable shapes to suit the ridiculous demands of a selfish, childish man.”
My response: You eloquently stated the reason so many women do not invest time in man-chasing. We’re not finding adult maturity in the aging male population. They couldn’t hold on to the first wife; why do we expect them to be prince charming the second time around??”
Sandy
That is a serious consideration: “the divorced single person.” Why are they divorced? All that sadness, disappointment, hurt, anger, etc. I know a large number of “second time ’round” couples who have done well, so I believe it’s possible. I’m just not so sure about it… He’d have to be an extraordinary person for me to stop and take a hard look. I’m not the insecure, jealous type of person… I think I’d prefer a widower who had had a marvelous marriage, quite frankly. Love memories are good ones and wouldn’t bother me at all. I have them, myself.
“What if he tries to kill her? Should she still live with him? Is she betraying him if she leaves him for safety reasons?”
http://newscastmedia.com/domestic-violence.htm
Your link doesn’t answer the question addressing “betrayal”. Your link only asks other questions. Yes, an increase in mutual violence includes woman striking first. Why? I have heard more women in the under 50 groups admitting to mutual fist fights. Sometimes the woman strikes first, sometimes she is reacting to the man’s first strike. Women are not cowering in a corner. First, however, I want to know scenarios: why would the woman get to the boiling point and react physically. Generally, women use their communication skills to castrate a man when he gets out of line. Women can be as abusive as men. Our society lacks morality and ethics (blanket statement according to research). Women were doormats. They accepted abuse as if they deserved it. Now, women aren’t taking it anymore. Fed up. It’s not necessarily feminism related. It’s just that women are tired of aggression and have decided to quit chastising men with words. Time for action. I agree that it is not appropriate. It’s still violence, regardless of who initiates the physical altercation. And, it’s illegal. If you cannot talk the woman down, call the police. She is responsible for her own behaviors. Humans are capable of anything. It’s not just female vs male.
@Sandy
“Your link doesn’t answer the question addressing “betrayal”.”
Your question was based on …if”s…. of violence against women in a relationship not facts about the most likely victim of it. All I did was give a link that gave information on violence in relationships for general knowledge for the readers based on something you said. I did not address it to you nor to counter your argument. Your reaction to it however is not surprising.
“Your link only asks other questions.”
The truth isn’t found in the answers given but in the questions asked.
One might say you are trying to justify violence against men and excusing the women who partake in it. One might say you have been proving every aspect of why the article hits home for women.
Women, for the most part, were categorically not doormats in ages past, they were treated at all times better than the men in their same class. Your so called empowerment has created a mess of relationships and the constant breaking of vows by women has led to a chatty class of old hags hell bent on trying to inflict their misery on others. No thanks. We don’t care, that’s the rub of this article. I’ll say it once again. It’s not women who are done with men at age 55 but men who are done with those women.
Thanks for coming Sandy. No one cares. We’ve heard all your arguments before, men bad, women good, 50 years of that bull has left a couple generations of men who are just so indifferent to your whimpering.
Mary,
Don’t bother trying to find a new husband. No one would live up to your expectations, some of which you may not even realize.
Focus on building a solid life now, though don’t blame men for the situation you have put yourself into.
Feminist hater: I suggest you thoroughly study the “History of Women” in the US. I also stated that violence is not acceptable way of problem solving. Your “hate” may be clouding your ability to comprehend what I stated and women are stating about history (as objectively as possible). The research stats are just that: stats. Real life has variations. A sample is not everyone. When I generally refer to women as a population, I am covering specific issues women have in the past faced. And, women were NOT always placed on a pedestal, but only under authoritarian male leadership. FEMINISM would not exist if women had felt they were “fulfilled” by doing housework and fetching a man’s slippers at the end of the day. The disrespect they felt stimulated by the heresy of feminism created the so-called empowerment movement. They do not feel that empowered as they face the same stresses in the workplace as men, only with serious side effects. Many younger women are working from home now, having come full circle.
So Mary, Sandy, are you done with men, or not? Simple question, simple answer, right?
… He’d have to be an extraordinary person for me to stop and take a hard look.
Ordinary (at best) woman demands extraordinary man.
“Aw, jeez, how come ain’t no men makin’ no offers? They all gay, or sumpin’?”
I’m not the insecure, jealous type of person… I think I’d prefer a widower who had had a marvelous marriage, quite frankly. Love memories are good ones and wouldn’t bother me at all. I have them, myself.
Widowed men who had long, “marvelous” marriages tend not to risk the beauty of those memories by rolling the dice on a crapshoot of a re-marriage. Most are smart enough to realize that their “marvelous” first marriage was pure luck of the draw, a one-time gift from God, and that lightning of that kind almost never strikes twice in the same place. Having caught a mermaid the first time, odds are almost certain that he’ll land the Loch Ness Monster the second time around. For a sad, cautionary illustration of this in real life, see the following story:
http://deadspin.com/5078636/lute-olson-soap-opera-gets-a-little-more-creepy
FEMINISM would not exist if women had felt they were “fulfilled” by doing housework and fetching a man’s slippers at the end of the day.
Where are all those “fulfilled” women after decades of full blown feminism?
A “fulfilled” woman is and always has been an extremely rare person.
Feminism is an ideology built on lies, spread with lies, and perpetuated by lies.
Attempting to ensure women are “fulfilled” is not a sane way to structure any society (unless said societies destruction is the goal).
For those who still think that woman of the past were oppressed:
Looks like the stayers beat the leavers in THREXIT
I can’t help be be intrigued by this whole thread, and want to say a couple things before I just leave off completely.
My marriage worked, and was a joy and a blessing because of Faith in Christ. It was NOT because we were rich, or smart, or beautiful, or perfectly fit, or any such thing. It was just 100% real, true, honest love made possible by the indwelling of the Spirit… in both of us. My husband did not start out a “imitator of Christ” but absolutely became one.
People used to ask us how we made our marriage work, how did we stay together and seem so happy? Well, all I can do is repeat what his reply was:
“#1) Make your marriage Christ centered. Sin is real and Satan will do his best to destroy your marriage. #2) A Christian marriage is not a 50/50 proposition. It is 100/100. Either you both are 100% on board, or you will fail. #3) Treat the other as you want to be treated. #4) Absolute fidelity in thought and action. #5) Maybe the most important thing both the husband and the wife must learn, the hardest thing to learn — the hardest thing for me to learn was this: Memorize, mean, and repeat these words to each other on an ‘as needed’ basis:
“I am sorry. I was wrong. I love you. How can I make this right?”
Huh. No wonder I loved him so much. I remember the first time (we’d been married for about 8 years) he walked up to me after being a total jerk and said those words: “I am sorry. I was wrong. I love you. How can I make this right?” He was pale and shaking. It was super hard for him but he did it for me. He did it for us. He was acting out the love of Christ, obeying the Holy Spirit.
I’ll tell you what, ladies and gentlemen: I melted. He didn’t need to do another thing. I knew he meant what he said. All wounds were healed in that instant. HUGE milestone in our relationship. That rascal kept it up till his last breath, too.
Guys, marriage isn’t about who’s on top, who’s in charge, feminism, or machismo. It’s not about body shape or age or health or anything. It is about the pure love of Christ. Love each other more than you love yourselves. Going that extra mile, wiping that tear away, cherishing each other for who you are, being each other’s rock through thick and thin. It should be as natural as breathing.
So, yeah. My husband is a tough act to follow. My expectations and standards are super high.
Oh, one last thing that absolutely affects my decision making process are my two daughters. Before all other human beings, they are the most important to me. THEY come first. Only the most extraordinary man will be able to understand that and be okay with it.
“BillyS says:
July 14, 2016 at 3:04 pm
Mary,
Don’t bother trying to find a new husband. No one would live up to your expectations, some of which you may not even realize.
Focus on building a solid life now, though don’t blame men for the situation you have put yourself into.”
Hi, BillyS,
I am, indeed, focusing on building a “solid life.” Unlike you, though, I do believe there are men who can “live up to my expectations.” Many of them. However, as I said, most of those fine men are already with someone else, and also, as I said, God does not send you someone else’s spouse.
Furthermore, I do not blame anyone for any “situation” that I am in — in fact, I’m not “IN a situation.” And although you seem to believe you have a deeper, almost psychic understanding of “my expectations” that I, myself, have, you most assuredly do not.
marymvalentine
It is wonderful that you are at peace in your marriage. My perspective is that God is in the process of blowing marriage up as the church has defined, promoted, and lived it for centuries. He is in the process of insisting that we do it by the book: marriage is about the wife obeying in all things [1Peter3], the wife glorifying the husband so the husband may then glorifying God [1Cor11]. There is zero equality in marriage just like the church has zero equality with Christ. The church is not fluent in marriage scripture and hacks away, butchering it. I’m happy you are happy but when we go from the carnal mind of rationalizing scripture to the spiritual mind of acting out the seemingly impossible and stupid-to-the-world scripture we will then wonder why we were once happy in what we had.
some of your assumptions about biblical marriage is not theologically correct. children are not “first” in a marriage. The husband and wife are “first” to each other. The definition of biblical equality is not the same definition as cultural equality. Certainly, NO ONE is equal to anyone else. We are different. Please refer to the Bible itself, and read the books and commentaries discussing marriage.
DG: by what authority do you teach us? Is your degree in women’s studies, psychology, or sociology? While the legal history of marriage is interesting, i’m not sure it helps clarify today’s issues of gender discrimination, power and control issues between men and women socially or in the marriage relationships, or addresses today’s abuse issues. Yes, laws evolved and some of our laws today reflect modifications. Read the book, A History of Women, if you can find it. I have forgotten the author’s name. Not a large book at all. It recounts the rules and how women were “less than”. They were indeed repressed and abused in the US. How did other countries deal with issues? We can compare, and even learn from the differences, but we need to directly address today’s issues in the US. Men and women need more forums so that some of the disillusionment, wrong assumptions, and emotional pain that plagues not only women, but men also, begins the healing process in our society.
Sandy Sue, are you (a) over 55 and (b) done with men, or not?
@Sandy
“Men and women need more forums so that some of the disillusionment, wrong assumptions, and emotional pain that plagues not only women, but men also, begins the healing process in our society.”
No my dear. First dysfunctional behaviour needs to be confronted and removed before healing can start. And women don’t want to hear how dysfunctional their behaviour has become. Your reaction to my link shows that even you have no real intention to actually rectify the problems of disillusionment, wrong assumptions and emotional pains that plague men. You made it clear that the link did not fulfil your wants and that it only asked more questions that you don’t want to deal with.
If your really want to know how healing works then might I suggest you stop talking about what you want and start listening more to what others need.
It was easy when the rules and obligations were spelled out. This is what I found. When both the husband and wife know exactly what is expected. That is at least what I discovered. But it gets difficult when others stick their noses into your business. Especially psychologists and others that are suppose to be helpful.
I find it funny here that every woman that has posted on this thread has to make it *clear* that *everyone* they meet, including men, thinks they are fifteen, twenty, twenty-five years younger than they really are.
And every woman who posts here doesn’t “need a man” because we’re all immature….YET they have to come here and you know…..”just let us know” that somehow, someway they are the exception to the data.
Someone wants to know if I am over 55 and done with men. Should we take a poll of the women participating in this forum who are actually over 55, whether married or single, if they are done with men. This meaning that they prefer to be without marriage, boyfriends, Platonic, and prefer the company of women. What say you all, ladies?
my view for my life: over 55 (35 years past divorce), single, not looking. Discovered that inventory is low at higher ages. Screen for core values, morals, ethics, lifestyle, and if adult children/grandchildren are issues in his life. Content to pursue own interests. College educated.
It isn’t meant to read like an advertisement. So far, haven’t run across a suitable companion. Most likely won’t at my age. Quite candidly, I don’t think research covers all the bases. Too many variables to consider.
Wonder if Sandy Sue makes sammiches I do
Sandy Sue – some of your assumptions about biblical marriage is not theologically correct. … The husband and wife are “first” to each other.
Scriptures please.
Sandy Sue –
1st says this: We are different. Please refer to the Bible itself, and read the books and commentaries discussing marriage.
Then says this: DG: by what authority do you teach us? Is your degree in women’s studies, psychology, or sociology?
How do you reconcile those two opposing sources for authority?
Furthermore, the scriptures regarding marriage are quoted often on this blog. Below is a summarized sample, they may be new to you because you won’t hear these scriptures quoted in context in most first world churches these days:
1 – Adam was created 1st (Gen 2:7, 2:18-23; 1Tim 2:13).
2 – Adam, not Eve, represented the human race (1Cor 15:22, 45-49; Rom 5:12-21).
3 – Adam named Eve, not the reverse (Gen 2:23).
4 – God named the human race “Man” not “Woman” (Gen 5:2).
5 – God called Adam to account 1st after the fall (Gen 3:9).
6 – Eve was created as a helper for Adam (Gen 2:18; 1Cor 11:9).
7 – The curse brought a distortion of previous roles not new roles (Gen 3:16).
8 – Salvation in Christ in the NT reaffirms the Creation order (Col 3:18-19).
9 – Marriage has been a picture of Christ and His church since creation (Eph 5:32-33).
10 – The relationship in the Trinity reflects the relationship in marriage (1 Cor 11:3).
11 – Wives are to submit to their own husbands.
Ephesians 5:22
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:24
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,
While the legal history of marriage is interesting, i’m not sure it helps clarify today’s issues of gender discrimination, power and control issues between men and women socially or in the marriage relationships, or addresses today’s abuse issues.
It clarifies them quite clearly. Feminism was built on lies, is propagated with lies, and is perpetuated with lies. The issues you speak of are non-issues. The fact that you see women as a ‘class’ and recognize any authority in women’s studies, psychology, or sociology already demonstrates you are indoctrinated by the enemy and deceived.
Yes, laws evolved and some of our laws today reflect modifications.
Laws written by the ungodly for the ungodly. Laws based on lies that have succeeded in further destroying the family by removing male authority in the home and allowing women to follow their baser instincts without accountability. Look around you and see how that’s working out for society. If there is anything left in a few decades it will only be by God’s mercy.
Read the book, A History of Women, if you can find it. I have forgotten the author’s name. Not a large book at all. It recounts the rules and how women were “less than”.
Lies written by liars for liars who want excuses for their bad behavior.
They were indeed repressed and abused in the US. How did other countries deal with issues?
Women in the West were never oppressed. Yes things were bad, for everyone. Women have never had it worse then the men of the same time and region. That is something you feminists will not accept because you are envious of men and see any form of accountability for women as oppression.
We can compare, and even learn from the differences, …
Those who will stop mistaking lies for truth can learn, but not those who continue in deception. Until you are willing to see things as they really are you won’t even be able to identify the problems let alone address them.
Yoda you beat me to it. I hope for her sake she starts making sammiches for the men in her life. It’s a good way for women to sock feminism right in the eye.
Yoda you beat me to it. I hope for her sake she starts making sammiches for the men in her life. It’s a good way for women to sock feminism right in the eye.
What “‘”men’ in her life?”
Who is going to write sammich-making instructions for these angry feminist women, who would not even recognize, let alone know what to do with, the ingredients? Should there not be toy sammich making kits (HUGE profit opportunity here for Fisher-Price) consisting of plastic or rubber food parts that would allow said individuals to practice their sammich making skills without wasting real, precious food?
Not that I’d ever DREAM of actually eating anything prepared by such unskilled, hate-filled hands, mind you, even if it was made from real food (although, being made with hate-filled hands, it would probably taste like plastic or rubber) …
Yeah I laughed my ass off when I read that. The idea that these incredibly privileged and entitled, special little snowflakes are somehow oppressed is utterly laughable. They are the most privileged group of humans in world history. Yet, they’re so narcissistic that they actually have the gall to insist that they’re oppressed.
I also find it hilarious that she throws out “women’s studies” as if that is actually some legitimate subject. LOL!
Oh, and for the special little snowflake, the word is oppressed not repressed you jackass.
Sweety, there is no rape culture, no discrimination against women no wage gap or any of these other silly myths you feminists love to conjure up. You will NOT be taken seriously here. Her blatant lies regarding the bible are equally hilarious. You can’t be a feminist and a Christian at the same time silly girl. Come out of your little girl power fantasy world and get with reality.
I am very happy that you are a happily married father.
Not everyone is so lucky to find a good partner for marriage and conceive a child. Many women such as myself are never married and have no children.
I am just over 55 and I can tell you that the desire for companionship never changed for me. I think the labels “old maid” and “spinster” are ascribed to women like me. Just like “confirmed bachelor” is ascribed to men who have no children or are never married.
I know lots of single, childless men and women in my age group.
It is not a “natural preference” for a person to live alone their whole life. Lots of people get divorved because they have not picked a suitable mate. Lots of people at age 55 are not yet married because they have not found a suitable mate.
Lots of people stop trying from sheer exhaustion or disappointment. This is not a result of a “natural inclination” to prefer to be alone.
Congratulations on being part of a very rarified group – found a good mate, has kids and is very happy in the marriage.
I think many people want that. It is just not easy to attain, find, stumble upon or however you care to word it.
Words like “spinster” and “old maid” are derogatory terms for a woman who has not had the good fortune if finding a loving, suitable partner. “Bad luck” is more like it.
I’m now 46 with 3 kids. Nobody wants me, too much effort. So why on earth would I when I’m 55 want to marry when I now can do it all by myself? It was too much effort then, so bye bye. Now I got used to being alone.
Statistics don’t lie but, do not tell the whole truth. Polls are biased because they are not the opinions of everyone…why do you think the presidential
popularity poll is always at least 35% no matter who is in office!
A little about myself and opinions.
HS diploma and BA just worthless pieces of paper that was a waste of time and money after learning to read, write, and basic math. REAL life is the
greatest teacher of our soul and mettle! The world is filled with educated derelicts.
I have not always been a pessimist; when I was a young man, I was optimistic about the future of the world. “Like a Rock” is my self proclaimed song.
Ever since I was child at the age of understanding, approximately 7 yrs old, I thought what people now call “outside the box”. I have and will always be
passionate, compassionate and benovolent to my fellow human beings. I do not judge or condemn another human being because I have no right to do
so. I don’t care what others think of me, if you don’t like what you see, read or hear, fuck off! I’m not in this world for you, I’m here to better myself and
share that with the world. I have my own expectations to live up to and I have discovered that the only reason we are in this world is to better ourselves.
I am not here to serve anyone and no one is here to serve me. In The Bible, woman was not taken from the foot of man to be below him, nor was she
taken from his head to be above him, she was taken from his side, to be by his side. This is also known as teamwork, sharing the same goals and
fulfilling each others wants, needs and desires. Women in general think with their hearts and emotions. Real men think critically with logic or common
sense, like talent, you either have it or you don’t. Always been self-motivated and very active, still in touch with my inner kid, toys are just bigger and
more expensive. Money and a job is just a necessity, not a life. Freedom is a fantasy, we are always jumping through someone’s hoops. What it all boils
down to is this…all we really have is each other.
This post is intended to hopefully enlighten some to the TRUTH that cannot be measured. Then again, it’s just my real life educated opinion.
Do not pity me for my pessimism or choice of solitude…it is not required nor welcome and would be considered an insult to my intelligence.
At 54, I am done with a commitment on any level to a women of any age! I am altogether, not altogether on anybody’s side cause no one is altogether on
my side. All I have ever wanted was female partner that complimented my strengths and weaknesses and mine hers. She simply does not exist! I chose
to adopt principals and morals of good men starting with my dad and many in history, some from The Christian Bible and others from personal
experience. I foolishly believed that women have done the same. Only a handful of men I trust as far as I can throw them and call friend. Most of what I
have witnessed in this slave driven society (economics) is the attitude of instant gratification and “the world revolves around me!” I have heard that we
are supposed to be evolving each generation, yet I witness more cowardly, vain, selfish, drug induced ignorance to the point where most don’t have a
clue what they want or how to achieve it. Lies fed to us, (literally too), by our education system, our churches, our government, our industries, our
pharmaceuticals. This “comatose” gene pool is so wonton we have lost the “one simple truth”…LOVE! It and common sense is the true measure of
intelligence, not some IQ test. Very few understand what it really is and all it is comprised of. “Soul mate” has become a hype and used out of it’s true
context at random just cause its something to say and is used as freely as “heart n soul” in romantic phrases; a contradiction in truth because the heart
and soul in one in the same, the phrases are lies used in the game of control, manipulation and seduction of both sexes. All holidays are a joke. Give
and pause once in awhile to meditate on our loss and gain whenever you want, not just cause some holiday on the calendar says its time to do so. Love
is a choice, therefore an action. There is nothing magical about it; the euphoria comes from bonding, (connecting), on many levels, when its given back
and hence, the momentary sexual bond of oneness.
Trust, forgiveness, giving of oneself to another freely without expectation and just excepting another for their strengths, weaknesses and willingness to
discuss those differences are too simple. Its human nature to take something simple and unbroken to complicate and destroy it. Either boredom or habit,
we just gotta eff it up! We have forgotten words like humble, content and therefore will ever pursue the other word; happiness. Communication and
honesty have become fantasies. All anyone seems to care about anymore is themselves. Materials, vanity, and a total disregard of the significant others
needs have become common-place among both sexes. We can’t give what we don’t have. Lastly, there is no such thing as luck, we create our own luck
by the choices we make. The one true super power we all possess, CHOICE!
From the first sentence one can tell nothing profitable is to follow. How does one discredit statistics? let us count the ways.
Geez, seems like people are so mean on this thread.
I have met women may times in public who seem interested but try to be coy which leaves me in the position of not knowing if she is sending me a signal that she is interested. A man does not want to offend the woman but many times I walked away wondering if I just lost a chance with someone who I wanted to know. BOTTOM LINE = Ladies, if you are interested, make it clear to him ! If others are present then slip him a note, SOMETHING to let him know for sure that you are available !
Just turned 50 and been divorced for 7 years.
I don’t know if “Are Women Done With Men After Age 55?” or “Men are done with women after 40”.
I suspect the the latter – Not really interested in women at this point in life.
Too much baggage and not worth the headaches, arguments, and psycho.
Victor Granquist says:
September 9, 2016 at 4:08 pm
Geez, seems like people are so mean on this thread.
Far more important:
1) Is what people say accurate?
2) Is what people say useful?
I would say that the nonfeminists are doing a bangup job of meeting those two criteria here.
The truth about older women is that there husbands won’t stop looking at other women ,an no longer care because he doesn’t respect her. I am 55. Truth
Married women never look at attractive men Sherry, right?
The truth about older women is that there husbands won’t stop looking at other women ,an no longer care because he doesn’t respect her. I am 55. Truth
Sherry can’t spell worth a damn, or write a coherent sentence (this seems to be a pattern among the bitter battleaxes who weigh in here), but at least she doesn’t ramble on for an entire book-length paragraph.
Anyway, hamsterlation of the above (apologies in advance to deti):
“I’m 55 years old and have let myself go to seed because I don’t give a shit anymore about either myself or my marriage. I have also become a post-menopausal, frigid bitch from Dante’s Ninth Circle of Hell (not that I was ever very pleasant again after he put the ring on my finger). My husband looks at other women because … well, what else would any man in the poor bastard’s situation do? I’m sure that if I started taking care of myself again, ditched the attitude, and showed even a minimal amount of affection toward him that he’d forget all about other women, but that takes effort and I don’t do effort. Besides, I don’t want his damned affection. I didn’t marry the bastard for that.
“He thinks he has other options and it pisses me off! If I’ve decided to make him miserable, then dammit, he’d better stay that way! I’m his wife, even if I don’t act like it, and he’d better not forget it!”
(this seems to be a pattern among the bitter battleaxes who weigh in here)
It is amazing that parents and taxpayers pour astronomical sums of money into educating females, only for 90% of them to become functionally illiterate…
These women are so pampered by their thankless, hardworking husbands, that they could afford to even let their literacy slide….
@ renskedejonge says:
September 1, 2016 at 3:48 am
“I’m now 46 with 3 kids. Nobody wants me, too much effort.”
Is there some reason a man should want a 46-year-old woman with three kids? Honestly, is there some advantage to that scenario vs being alone? Why is anyone surprised? And yet, many are.
“I’m 55 years old and have let myself go to seed because I don’t give a shit anymore about either myself or my marriage. I have also become a post-menopausal, frigid bitch from Dante’s Ninth Circle of Hell (not that I was ever very pleasant again after he put the ring on my finger). My husband looks at other women because … well, what else would any man in the poor bastard’s situation do? I’m sure that if I started taking care of myself again, ditched the attitude, and showed even a minimal amount of affection toward him that he’d forget all about other women, but that takes effort and I don’t do effort. Besides, I don’t want his damned affection. I didn’t marry the bastard for that.
Seems like my wife an yourself, have gone to the same school. I have been married 32 years an yes its still hell, most of the time.
marymvalentine says:
July 16, 2016 at 7:08 pm
“So, yeah. My husband is a tough act to follow. My expectations and standards are super high.
Oh, one last thing that absolutely affects my decision making process are my two daughters. Before all other human beings, they are the most important to me. THEY come first. Only the most extraordinary man will be able to understand that and be okay with it.”
1) A broad on the far side of 45 (to say nothing of 55) is NOT in position to have high expectations and standards, not if she wants a man in her life. 4-day-old baked goods only get sold if they are priced at a discount, NOT at higher prices than when just out of the oven (17- 23).
2) When ever a woman with children tells a prospective man that they come first, that (after her two kids) he’ll only be the 3rd most important person in her life, tops, here’s the answer he should give her: that she’ll only ever be the 3rd most important person in HIS life, then, just to keep it fair and even. Watch her throw an absolute FIT in that event, as few women want fairness and equity, not for real.
What a lot of rubbish I am a woman of 59 and disagree total with your theory. I am a widow if I had the opportunity to marry again I would!
To make a long thread just a little bit longer.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4000990/The-rise-silver-singles-Women-aged-55-buck-trend-falling-divorce-rate-look-love-again.html#comments
@TJRT:
Very interesting. Although the article mentions middle-aged women “looking for love again,” one notices that it studiously avoids mentioning whether or not they’re having any luck in finding it. Then again, this is the Daily Mail we’re talking about …
I agree with this article I have experienced the hot & cold by women.
One day they love you next day they want out of the relationship . This is after numerous dinners nice gifts , trips
Etc… You feel used . I applaud all players .
My soon to be ex-wife complains about having to “change so much for me,” ignoring everything good in our marriage. All the good went out the window in a heartbeat it seems. (Though it was out the window in many ways much earlier, something that is hard to grasp, but which men need to understand far more.)
The memory is short in many women.
Well, I’m over 55 but I’m not dead yet. Your manipulated stars are ridiculous.
Wow, this thread has been going for 6 years, it sure must have touched nerves. As an (almost) 60 year old married but separated man, I can attest to the fact that relationships change over time, and that tipping points exist. My wife thinks she would love to have the relationship she thinks she wants. You see the dominance of the word “think” here right? The standard I am being held to is a fantasy that has never been tested. That is not to say that our problems are her fault, I have contributed my share, basically as I observe it, I am unable to break the habitual reactions that have developed over the years. I guess what I want to contribute to the discussion is the notion that looking outward will simply produce more of the same rationalizations that have created the mess, and that looking inward at least has the prospect of producing a new kind of knowledge, whether that is helpful or not is for each of us to determine for ourselves.
What a lot of rubbish I am a woman of 59 and disagree total with your theory. I am a widow if I had the opportunity to marry again I would!
I don’t know how I overlooked this gem of a missed point from drive-by Susan (my thanks to her for at least having the courtesy to not leave a page-long paragraph). I know she’ll never return to read this response, but here goes anyway, for the benefit of other similarly deluded women:
The point, so clearly illustrated in the OP and that clarifies the title of this post, is not that women over 55 might not want to get their hooks into another man and/or remarry. No doubt plenty do. The point is that most women are done with men after 55 because no men worthy of the title are going to be bothered with overpriced, badly used antiques when they can get brand new or “gently used” items of far superior quality for a fraction of the cost and effort. Luke’s analogy of 4-day-old baked goods above applies in full. Such goods are going to get thrown away before ever being sold at anything remotely close to full price. As a matter of fact, it would not be unreasonable to give these away for free – or, if one desperately needed to clear space for new inventory, pay someone to take them off one’s hands.
In Susan’s specific case, the fact that she would choose to marry again if she had the chance is irrelevant. Odds are overwhelming that no man has, or ever will have any interest whatsoever in marrying her. She is therefore de facto “done” with men.
Lars
My wife thinks she would love to have the relationship she thinks she wants. You see the dominance of the word “think” here right?
Actually she’s not thinking at all. She’s emoting. She feels that she deserves something, and feels whatever-it-is would make her happy.
The standard I am being held to is a fantasy that has never been tested.
Practical questions:
Does she read a lot of romance fiction, or view a lot of Lifetime / Oprah / Oxygen shows?
Unspoken expectations can be heavily affected by immersion in such fiction.
That is not to say that our problems are her fault, I have contributed my share, basically as I observe it, I am unable to break the habitual reactions that have developed over the years.
You cannot change her directly, but you can change the way you react to her behavior.
There are actions you can take starting today that will improve your outlook, improve your own life, and indirectly improve things around you. In changing how you react to her, you can have an effect on her behavior indirectly. Maybe it’s too far gone to pull your wife back, but there are many other women in the world.
Please consider reading Rollo at https://therationalmale.com/
You will almost certainly find it interesting.
My wife hit that same point last fall Lars and enough people pushed her that she took the next step to strike out on her own again. It is clear to me that this was building for a long time, perhaps our entire marriage. It took her 28 years, but she finally got to the point she could go against an explicit word from God to her (to marry me).
I would encourage you to not focus on what you did wrong, except as much as that allows you to change to be a better person. You can do nothing to change her mind. Your wife is making up her own mind and nothing you do will change that.
I would also file for divorce quickly if she moved to a state with divorce laws that favor the wife more. She may just be doing her time in that state to then file and get you to pay more than the state where you are right now.
That is an aspect of things I had not fully thought of until recently, but I would never allow for a cross-state separation. That almost definitely has no chance for reconciliation and I would look at other reasons why she might seek that.
So this is a pretty ancient thread but I would like to pop in and ask the widows on here…
Do you think you would be better served honoring your husband’s memory rather than finding some other man to nail? Maybe I’m just old fashioned, but this remarriage after widowing is pretty much isolated to western cultures, particularly for women. Having seen in my own family what “remarriage” can do with a family fortune, I would not marry a woman who would want to remarry in the event that I die, with the exception of us not having any children.
It’s been my experience that women are women regardless of age. They’ll always want more then themselves. Many women are financially secure due to alimony or life insurance. They therefore are still picky regarding finding a ‘financially compatible’ partner. Now this only pertains to a long term relationship. Sex? Anything goes. I joke sex is easier but a LTR is not.
I would like to know how males who are younger (French President Macron comes to mind) that their spouses deal with the lack of affection. Statistics may show most guys get a young girlfriend, fine, but they still have to leave at home.
It’s France. Mistresses are accepted among men above a certain social status, as long as they are discreet. You can rest assured Macron isn’t having sex with his wife very much, but is quite sexually satisfied overall, and his wife couldn’t care less — she’s still his wife. This is the French way of dealing with this.
This thread (and its post) are hilarious.
Dudes: it is true. Take it from an almost-50-year-old woman. You cease to be magical around the time that we figure out that we do just fine without you, and often better. If it helps you feel better, you can decide we’re sour-grapesing it, though that’s not actually accurate either, because as any single 50-year-old woman can tell you, there’s always some poor sad man around wanting a wife to do things for him, and he’s generally unfussy and has money and isn’t really all that interested in sex as a reality anymore anyhow.
No, the real reason is you’re a pain in the tuchus, most of you. And you reach a certain age and realize you don’t have to put up with it if you don’t want to. If you’re a 50-year-old woman, most likely you have grown children, friends, a job, maybe aging parents who can use your help, a house or apartment — but unless you’re really nice and interesting, fun to be around, and responsible, honestly, we don’t want to live with you. It doesn’t matter how much money you have. We don’t need 50/60-something boys to take care of, and a lot of older men are exactly that. We certainly don’t have to put up with moodiness, abuse, resentment about our careers and happiness and functioning sexuality. We’re tired of doing most of the housework for an able-bodied man, tired of his parents, probably. And we super don’t want to deal with the endless dumb lies. We’re up to here with the immaturity. You know? You guys are *work*. I also don’t know too many men who really know how to *share*, to live together as though you’re actually equally important humans, and be good self-cleaning chores-responsible housemates. (Fortunately I did live with a man like that for seven years, so every guy after that who was Mr. “I’m the center of the universe” came out poorly by comparison.) So if you’re not worth it, we’re no longer young and dumb enough to say Okay, and do it anyhow.
It’s tougher if you’re married and you know you’re really upending someone else’s life by leaving, especially if he’s really not a bad guy. But if you’re single, or divorced, or widowed? I mean…my house is nice. It’s nice and quiet and it smells good. I don’t want a man living here. I don’t want to have to think about telling a man where I’m going or when I’ll be back, or have someone whining at me to come to bed because he wants to go to sleep and he’s lonely. I guess that’s what it comes down to. I’m not lonely. I don’t want to be the fix for some lonely man’s loneliness. I feel like that’s not my problem.
Narcissism at its finest!
Lol! Yep. Hey, if other gents want a shot at the fine example above, be my guest. Haha! Just cracks me up! Love it!
Women over 55 in the west are just the same as the young women in the west: despicable, manipulative, evil, vile, sexually immoral, mean witches. The only difference is that they are old hags, and men will not find them as attractive as the younger women. This causes jealousy in older women against younger women, and pits women of these two age groups together.
So, what can we see?
A CATFIGHT!
LOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
That’s why its been said: “A woman is her worst enemy”.
Think about it. All the competitiveness, hatefulness, spite, jealousy, bitchiness. That is what is so unattractive to men. And yet women think that these characteristics make them look strong, sassy and smart to men, thinking men are so stupid, when it is such women who are stupid.
Oh, the irrationality of these jezebels knows no bounds.
I see “I will not settle” (for less than what she deserves) in many older dating profiles. The hubris runs deep in many.
“and then she thought better of it.”
This is just the latest parasite to insist that she does all the work and that her husband was useless, even though she took the house that HIS money earned. Look how she says ‘now I have MY house to myself’….
The utter narcissism, lack of self-awareness, and lack of basic character of these women never ceases to amaze. The good news is that she is likely to lose it all to a Nigerian romance scam.
I don’t remember seeing “and then she thought better of it”‘s (really? who the hell chooses that kind of a handle?) post. Of course she posted it on 4th of July, which, if she’s American, just goes to show how pointless and empty her life is.
I used to be impressed at the longevity of this thread, but now it’s just getting tiresome. NONE of the broads who post here have anything original, or even intelligent to say.
It’s basically the feminist handbook script to a tee.
Don’t worry Anon. I don’t know if you are a Christian, but it says in the Bible that a person’s sin will find him or her out (Numbers 32:23).
These women who divorce their husbands will suffer, and such suffering will not be honourable, but disgraceful. A man who suffers when he does no wrong, and perseveres in fighting for what is right is honourable.
My point is to not worry. Their suffering, whether financial, economic, emotionally, psychologically, physically will come.
The irony is that a persons who re-marry after he or she has committed adultery against his or her innocent spouse will not be able to find a faithful spouse. That would be pain and suffering in and of itself to them. It is a curse to such persons.
Sounds about right, I mean, it’s pretty shitty being completely alone for the rest of your life. Unless you are Yoda.
Looking at this web site is Kind of sad, and Backward because a lot of you have lost Heart.. I’m sure from good looking American ladies to men… please understand one thing YOU all have the right to feel happy & loved! Our lives may be short or long.. Your society is Fake if it teaches you to just seek for the perfect human…. Many of you have talents, and Enjoy things.. Look up at the Night sky you think such and such an Age is old Nope the Universe is still young stars are millions of years old.. Please What ever age you are Enjoy living on the Earth or make the Best of it.. Smile meet people KNOW THAT YOUR ALL HUMAN BEINGS not Here for the Ride.. But to Learn.. BE YOURSELF.. or Learn to be Better.. Women & Men.. IF YOU CAN TRAVEL~ & See the World or outside of your areas ..One day Human youth is Gone.. Enjoy … Time ticks for the Whole world, and When we all pass over Time and age was Just a memory..! Learn to be Kind to yourself’s !! respect all
I became a mother at a young age and losing my virginity on my prom night. I was married at 23 years of age. I feel time stop for me.
I’m 55 years of age and now I want to experience love, but my boobs and butt has went from up and firm, to a flat tire.
Any advice? My partner of 4 years doesn’t find me attractive any more. In my heart he never saw me as beautiful.
I’m 58, and the last several men I’ve been sexually active with could not get an erection, and told me that ED meds did not work well for them. The sex was all about pleasing me – orally or with sex toys or manual stimulation. Way better than what I experienced in either of my 2 marriages! Many of my female friends in this age group, married or unmarried, have similar tales to tell about male sexual problems in this age demographic. The huge amount of ED meds sold in this country would tend to support this being a pretty common situation. It seems to me that the men this age are the ones who are eager for companionship, females tend to be more social and supportive of each other, and therefore aren’t lacking in companionship. Men can’t seem to spend time with each other without turning everything into a competition and a game of one-upmanship. Just my personal experience/observations. And no, I really don’t care much one way or the other if I remarry – been there, done that twice, not on my bucket list to repeat it!
Hey, an old slut!
Lol!
LOL!
Im a 55 year old man who looks 23. I don’t need no woman even tho they luvme. I am married and I didnt divorce my wife because I didnt feel like it and if I dont feel like it I dont gotta do it. I get hiton all the time by 20 year olds who want an older guy of 23, and I get hot on by 50 year old who want a guy like me who looks 23. I went and took noght classes to learn how to build engines for nascars. then with no money or backing i started traveling with a Busch cup team and doing grunt work for free. why should my wife care that those girls are lifting shirts at me cuz im on the crew in the pit. screw her if it bugs her she can go be one of em.I just took a loan against my house and bought an old nascar engin. is my dream to rebild it by my hands and i have a group of groupys to help me sell it. my wife said i was crazy and her gfs ands bffs said she ot to trash me out but now the house is levered all the way up. that engin work keeps me fit and i draw women from all the age groups at the places like taladega. i dont need no wife but you and no one else can make me keep her or thro out. my kids ador me cus i come home from time to time. my grampa worked on truks. And he tossed every gramma i knew out of the house, even the ones that tended to him when old. he sure knew how to treat a women
My understanding is that ED meds only work when there’s an underlying physical problem. They don’t (and will never) work when a man is faced with having sex with an utterly unattractive partner.
Honestly, none of us would get an erection for a 58 year old woman. We don’t get erections when we see automobiles, fenceposts, dogs, children, or doorknobs, either. Unless a man is mentally ill with some sort of weird granny fetish, he’s not going to be able to get it up for you. You sag. You stink. You’re ugly. End of.
The only possible exception that proves this rule is an old lady who has been a faithful and good wife, for a lifetime, to a man. That one man can get it up for his woman. The dick *ALWAYS* knows a good woman.
Regards,
Boxer
I am storing the latest Nigerian Romance Scam links over here, to add to the list above :
Woman in Canada loses HK$6M (about $1 million US$) to Nigerian Romance scam.
Toronto woman loses $1.2M to online romance scam.
Miami area woman loses $1M to Nigerian romance scam.
Woman loses 1.6M GBP (about $2.4 million) to Nigerian romance scam.
A married couple simply would not be defrauded by this.
This also proves that some psychological tactics are effective. Game is a lighter version of this, and thus Game works very well.