But we already knew that. This is core to her online identity as a sex positive feminist. She feels so strongly about this that she incorporated it into her moniker. But in case we might not have gotten the message, she reminded us in a recent comment:
Sluts* like me opt out of that frame. I decided as a teenager that I was not going to pander to some hypothetical future groom by limiting my sex life, nor was I going to pander to any current boys or men in my life by engaging in sexual activity in exchange for affection. To me, the dignified path was always about having sex if and when it felt desirable and right to me (within certain ethical contraints, those being best summed up as “do no harm” — practice safe sex, ensure the consent of your partner, and be kind). In other words, I had sex because I wanted to have sex, and no other reason. If someone had expressed a concern about my value in the marriage market, I would have said, “Screw that.” Besides, I think that if a woman takes care of herself physically, projects confidence, and behaves like a decent and kind person, she will do just fine on the “market” anyway, so why should she wrap herself up in knots about whether she’s a “slut” or not?
Anyone surprised? Me either. What I did find surprising was the paragraph which immediately followed in the same comment (emphasis mine):
*I self-identify as a “slut” because I have always opposed the double-standard and the transactional view of sex, and have acted accordingly. On the one hand, I may not qualify under the standards set forth here. I never had sex with, or even kissed, anyone other than a premarital boyfriend of several years and my husband. With both men, I had sex with them immediately on a first date within a few weeks of first meeting them with absolutely no expectation of or desire for a further relationship. The fact that I wound up in long term relationships with both men does not change the nature of my initial encounters with them.
I teased her a bit about lacking sufficient initiative as a slut, but I do find this very interesting. I’m sure she has her own reasons (which she is of course welcome to share or not), but my own guess is that it fits with my assessment that the sexual revolution was (and is) more of a long term unraveling of the constraints on women’s promiscuity rather than an event which occurred in the late 60s and early 70s. I think this is one reason parents today struggle to understand how the promiscuity of their sons and daughters could be so different than the promiscuity they experienced and/or witnessed in their youth. We have a generation of parents who think they know slutty or even think they invented slutty, but they really have no idea.
This is the equivalent of women claiming to be sexworkers because they danced one night in a strip club or did webcamming for a week. I don’t fully understand why women try to lump themselves in with the ones who made those choices. Is there cachet to being a sexworker or slut that I don’t know about? The cost is great to make either choice and most women don’t want to pay, for what are generally good reasons.
Biologically speaking, I’m guessing Doomed Harlot was operating on a molecular level in which her sense of smell and other primal instincts were taking over. (Love has many primitive elements. Sustaining it is where the brain really comes into play.) Doesn’t change what either you or A Lady wrote, just makes me think that her body overrode any mental decisions she thought she wanted to make. Actual sluts aren’t quite so discriminating.
Or she’s just lucky that both partners ended up long-term and derailed her would-be slutosity.
Good for a roll in the hey, maybe, bad for a LTR or risking falling in love with, definitely.
*hay
Yeah, as slutty as she wants to be. Fortunately (for her) not that much.
I don’t think she should get the glory if she doesn’t have any battle scars (i.e. STDs)
I live in a place where I could be a madam (and I could be a very successful madam), but my immigration visa inhibits me from this most lucrative opportunity. I do not want to be a sex-worker — it’s way against who I am — but I do believe that there are people who are called to this oldest of professions, and where it is legal and thereby “safer” (less violence, more medical care, etc), I could make a heck of a lot of coin.
And I’m seriously about making coin. I suppose I’ll just have to stick to making coin through running a holistic health center.
I love how I’m so . . . Jumbo Shrimp. LOL
Anyway, I agree that Doomed Harlot is *not* a slut, BUT I will say that a lot of the words used in the Gaming community can be extremely harsh. Women over 30 are over-the-hill, useless hags (married or not, from what I can tell). Women who have sex with several men (usually more than three, but for some men, as many as one or more) are sluts. It can get pretty idiotic (just like some of their weirdo feminists).
That said, I’m figuring out that there are men who are like you, Athol, and Badger (among others) who will call spades spades (and I can’t fault that), and that there are whiners (both male and female).
I try really hard not to be a whiner.
You probably couldn’t make coin as a madam, it is not nearly the cash machine commonly assumed to be.
My spousal unit explained Doomed Harlot to me. It’s female paganism, glory in her own mind about sluttiness as ‘something that makes me an awesome unconventional dame’, not a concern or understanding or care for actual sluts and the passes in their lives that led them to be slutty. Ms. Harlot thinks there is some kind of glam to the whole shebang and so identifies not out of true affinity, but female-specific point-scoring.
“Besides, I think that if a woman takes care of herself physically, projects confidence…”
“Projects confidence”,lol. Because I totally wanna fuck some woman’s confidence.
I actually like that standard:
I ran one multisport race so I must be a triathlete.
I made one team in junior high so I’m a varsity athlete.
Actually, the first one might apply. One of my triathlon books argues that being a triathlete is a license that needs yearly renewal. You need to run at least one race a year to keep the title. The exception being those who complete an iron distance race. They are triathletes for life.
So, Doomed Harlot was a slut, twice, for a year after sleeping with a man on the first date. She needed those two kids by different fathers (without being married and widowed or abandoned) to qualify for slut for life.
Why anyone would want to (and without much reason, mind you) associate themselves with a term that would implicate having a low sense of self worth is beyond me.
I predict a qualitative easement of her stated 2 partners within three months.
@Daegus
Why anyone would want to (and without much reason, mind you) associate themselves with a term that would implicate having a low sense of self worth is beyond me.
I think she is pretty clear that her point is to sooth the fears of young women when making decisions about promiscuity. Don’t worry, I am a slut and I didn’t pay a price for it when finding a husband.
Dalrock
I think she is pretty clear that her point is to sooth the fears of young women when making decisions about promiscuity. Don’t worry, I am a slut and I didn’t pay a price for it when finding a husband.
That’s pretty much the same line the sex-positive feminists take, isn’t it?
Dalrock:
Let’s hope that the women “making decisions about promiscuity” aren’t choosing whoredom with the mindset of eventually getting married. It would seem to me as though many men are beginning to open up their eyes to women who do this kind of thing. They sleep around and then once they start getting ugly and their biological clock begins to tick a lot louder, they want to “settle” for a nice man. Non-lower betas don’t fall for it.
Alte has mentioend several times here and at her blog a very important truth when it comes to feminists and the sex-positive.
Not all women are as genetically privileged as other women. Woman A. maybe very pretty, very smart, very charming, and very accomplished. She can 1. be relatively content as a single woman and 2. probably get a man regardless of her behavior.
Woman B. is not very attractive, not very smart, and not very accomplished. Her only hope of a life outside of poverty (because she can only get a job in the service industry) is having a man to help take care of her. If she makes many poor choices it will take her out of the marriage market for all but the lowest quality men.
There is a big difference between what someone like Eva Longoria can get away with and what this woman can get away with:
So these sex-positive feminists who say “sluttiness never hurt me” are just capitalizing on their genetic privileges.
Women with an SMV of 0-4 can only really sell themselves based on their virtue. They have to prove that they will make an excellent wife to make up for their genetic disadvantages. Unfortunately it is the genetically underprivileged who are most likely to buy hook, line, and sinker the idea that they can do whatever they want with little consequences.
Not even gonna touch this one.
Actually, yes, I could.
In my university years, I studied women’s studies and did extensive research on income related to the sex-work industry. That is, I studied the businesses.
The most lucrative were high-end brothels in countries where it was legal.
In addition, I’m a business woman already — and quite successful. I’ve got my eye on the prize here — looking to franchise my business as the next step — and looking to build it into a very large business over time.
So, yes, I could be a very good madam. But, as I said, it is not legal for me to do so here (immigration wise), and I’m not interested in doing it in certain counties in Nevada.
Oh well, I guess I just have to focus on the super-awesome business I have.
“Don’t worry, my appendix ruptured and I didn’t know for weeks. Yet, I didn’t die.”
No lie, it happened to my friend and he lived. Anyone want to take bets if others will be as successful?
You didn’t actually do the work, so no, you don’t understand how they work. Being legal or illegal is not actually that relevant to earning money from them. But you know, it’s pretty usual for those outside the industry to claim they could do it better, whether it’s the work or exploiting the women doing the work. Your point-scoring re: sexwork is identical behavior to Doomed Harlot’s claims of sluttitude to point-score that way.
This. It’s the female Apex Fallacy: If the women at the top are doing it, then we can all do it. I do this sometimes too, without thinking. Women project their personal anecdotes onto the broader population of women, and discard the obvious mitigating factors.
Good point, Alte. But let’s expand on it a bit. In any organization, including social ones (such as “communities” and “societies”) attitudes tend to flow from the top downwards. Provided, of course, that those people towards the apex of the group/organization make any effort at all to enforce any conformity.
People tend to look for opinion leaders. Women, as a rule, are even more interested in opinion leaders. If the women on the top of social networks were not bed hopping, were not practicing serial monogamy, were not trashing men and boys, etc. and so forth, then what would the rest of the women do?
Really, only three points:
My first point was to demonstrate how conflicted people can be. On the one hand, I hold rather conservative views about sex, but on the other hand, I believe that prostitution should be legal, that some people are called to it, and that there are people who could well use the services without the whole thing boiling into an exploitative mess.
My second point is that I am a good business person, and I believe that I could run a successful, lucrative brothel. I didn’t say I could “do it better” than someone else. I run a healthy, successful business, and I think that — if it were legal for me to do so — I could run a successful brothel.
And third (though not an original one of my points): the legal situation *really* matters. From a business standpoint, the *risks* of running a criminal business are huge — not just in prosecution, but also in criminal association. But, running a legal business, you only have to worry about what law does apply — and in this instance, health code and employment law are the primary two.
(Finally, please note that I recognize that the ‘point scoring’ language was directed to make me a target of ridicule and associate me with “the feminist problem” or whatever one might call it. I purposefully utilized it “on it’s head” to denote the points I was asserting and thereby “scoring.” There is no scoreboard, no scorekeeper, and I’m not interested enough in all of you to be that interested in keeping score, particularly when I have no clue what sort of score one thinks I’m trying to keep.)
Oh, a post in my honor! I will be happy to address a couple of points raised.
AM I REVELING IN THE GLORY OF MY SELF-PROCLAIMED SLUTTINESS? Er, no. I don’t think sleeping around is anything to be proud of. But the point is that it’s not anything to be ashamed of either.
I refer to myself as a “slut” here primarily to make the point that this label should not have the power it has to shame woman. Also, I think virtually any woman can be considered a “slut” in someone’s eyes.
WHY ARE MY NUMBERS SO LOW IF I AM A SLUT/SEXUAL LIBERAL?
Being a sex-positive feminist means being confident in one’s right to say “no” sex, as well as one’s right to say “yes.” I am neither proud nor ashamed of being cautious and somewhat fastidious about sex as a young woman, though I regret not experimenting more.
Trust me, in my youth I had sex with hundreds of men in my mind. And I was popular with boys from the age of about 12 onward. I very much wanted sexual experience but I worried that kissing someone or having sex would lead to a lot of unwanted entanglements and drama — and I worried about hurting the feelings and egos of boys and men who liked me too much. Finally, at 18, I got sick of being an unkissed virgin and determined to lose my virginity by the end of the summer. I chose a handsome guy in his mid-20s from the retail store where I worked, and asked him out, figuring he was mature enough to know what he was doing and that he probably wouldn’t want a relationship with a little kid like me. Our one-night stand morphed gradually into a relationship anyway – c’est la vie.
Someone above wondered why I would want to lump myself in with THOSE women. Or why I would want to associate myself with a term indicative of low-self-esteem.
But that’s the point. I lump myself with THOSE women because I don’t think that those women should be in some separate defined category. I don’t seem “them” as terribly different from myself. And the concept is predicated on high self-esteem, not low self-esteem. The point is to reject the power of this labeling of women to restrict our freedom in a way that men’s freedom is not limited.
As for STDs, I did have a small portion of my cervix removed as a result of HPV. I do think that that was the result of an ethical lapse in failing to use condoms with my boyfriend, as well as youthful irresponsiblity in failing to for regular check-ups that might have caught this sooner. I never experienced any adverse consequences from this STD, other than the inconvenience of minor laser surgery. If I could do it over, I would have been more vigilant about condom use.
Hey Doomed Harlot! You are a (slut ) legend in your own mind.. Lol
Try as you might to convince us otherwise..
The Doomed Harlot moniker has gotta go.. 😉
Does that procedure affect your ability to have a normal vaginal birth?
And redefining terms such that the opinion of men is ignored will produce wonderful results so long as men aren’t desired. If they are, then their opinions do matter and cannot be foisted upon them. There is a reason Lesbos was an island.
Paige, My doctor advised that the laser surgery I had would not affect my ability to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth. The more of the cervix is removed, the greater the risk of miscarriage, because the cervix is weakened. The portion affected by cervical displasia caused by HPV was very small — and it only got to that point because I went for years without a pap smear. Not to belittle STDs, but this was a pretty minor deal for me.
Kathy, Ha ha. Actually I made up “Doomed Harlot” on a whim when I started commenting at Free Jinger, a forum for people who make fun of religious patriarchy. I chose my handle because it sounded Biblical!
Ulysses,
A man’s opinions definitely matter if he is desired as a partner. That’s a big if, though. And not all men are the same, thank God.
That said, I think it is imperative for women to be willing to retire to the Isle of Lesbos or their apartments with their cats, if need be. Women who feel they MUST have a man at all costs to the point that they will pander to what men supposedly like or don’t like, no matter how unreasonable, are on a path to second-class citizenship.
@Paige
I know a couple of women my age who have had the procedure that Doomed Harlot had (for the same reason) and they have both gone onto have vaginal births. But I wouldn’t say it was minor for them, they were very stressed by the whole thing.
I also know a couple of older women who died of cervical cancer. Interestingly, both married young to their first serious boyfriend (their husbands are definitely more on the beta than alpha side, but in one case I definitely know he was unfaithful to her, in the other I don’t, but I suspect so).
My guess is that these two women probably thought they were safe and did not go for regular screening because in both instances by the time it was caught it was way too late. In one case, it was picked up during an examination by ‘accident’ on x rays she had for back problems (which were from the cancer spreading).
If you’re interested, here is a link to info on it.
http://www.jostrust.org.uk
I dunno if doomed harlot is a slut or not, but she’s a f*cking nutjob, that much I know.
I know someone who recently died from cervical cancer also. High school boyfriend…she died at age 30 with a 2 year old daughter. It was heartbreaking.
HPV is no joke and is not preventable with condoms.
Doomed Harlot, perhaps you are not aware that you are coming across as a poseur, as someone who wishes the excitement, the “sticking it to The Man” street cred of calling herself a “slut”, but who never actually was one. It’s like someone walking around in Harley leathers who doesn’t actually own a motorcycle.
“Sex positive” feminism seems to me to boil down to yet another version of having your cake and eating it, too. A woman with a high partner count becomes less and less likely to remain faithful to any future husband, the data on this are clear. Sluttitude is not something to promote, really it isn’t.
Anonymous Reader,
You are missing the point. A person going for “street cred” as a “slut” would exaggerate her number of sex partners, no? So that can’t be right. Not to mention that that would be fucking stupid.
The point is two-fold — in many places, a woman with my sexual history WOULD be considered a “slut,” and two, I am identifying with the “sluts” because I want to do my very small part in robbing that concept of its power to shame.
Paige,
I am sorry for the loss of your friend and I agree that cervical cancer is no joke.
However, condom use and regular pap smears do make cervical cancer largely preventable.
Doomed Harlot, what you have written is basically an affirmation of what others have said about attractive women being able to “get away” with more than unattractive women. Presumably if you were a “3” to that first guy, the relationship that ensued would not have happened.
What you are doing is really not a favor to those women who are less attractive. By making “sluttiness” seem normal and okay, those women might be tempted to experiment with a very attractive man, only to get pumped and dumped. It happens all the time to less pretty girls, but not very often at all to pretty girls.
As I said on Alte’s blog, I do not like the word personally and do not think it should be “claimed” in the name of anything.
“Someone above wondered why I would want to lump myself in with THOSE women. Or why I would want to associate myself with a term indicative of low-self-esteem.
But that’s the point. I lump myself with THOSE women because I don’t think that those women should be in some separate defined category. I don’t seem “them” as terribly different from myself.”
Chivalry died when women allowed whores to be counted among ladies.
“And the concept is predicated on high self-esteem, not low self-esteem. The point is to reject the power of this labeling of women to restrict our freedom in a way that men’s freedom is not limited.”
First, the biggest users of the slut label are other women, who often use it simply as a false allegation to tar the competition who may in fact be doing the same thing they are.
Second, this obsession with sexual equality is nutty. The pro-slut people are absolutely hypnotized by the apex fallacy thinking that guys across the spectrum are banging a different broad every night and then tattooing “SLUT!” on her ass on the way out the door without even the courtesy of making her an omelette.
Besides, men’s freedom is limited in counterpuntal ways. The biggest being that men are generally expected to use some of their productive power to provide for other people (be it wife+kids or society at large), just as women are expected to limit their availing themselves of their sexual opportunity for the good of society.
“However, condom use and regular pap smears do make cervical cancer largely preventable.”
The first part of that on condoms is crap. They reduce transmission but not to the point they could be deemed effective. Paige is right, “HPV is no joke and is not preventable with condoms.”
I realize Doomed Harlot wants to think that her carelessness and not the risk of a sex life itself gave her the HPV, but sadly, we’re to the point where HPV is just an unavoidable risk of almost any sexual activity, so make sure you get those smears.
You want to know why society sees being a “Slut” as so much worse than a, well, whatever the male equivalent is?
because being a slut is (comparatively) easier. Women, on average, do not have to work nearly as hard to get laiud as the average man does. Even the player has to go through the trouble of actually seducing his latest PnD
Think about it: Who does society show contempt for? The self-made millionaire or the trust fund baby? They’re both rich right? Why all the hate?
One had to work for it, the other didn’t.
this is what so many women don’t seem to understand. They assume getting laid for men is as easy as it is for them. They are completely ignorant of what most men have to risk in order to “get some.”
This also explains the feminist contempt for the Nice Guy ™ and the Game Theory. “Why the hell do you need any help with all this? Sex is easy, something must be seriously wrong with YOU if you can’t get laid.”
I’d be willing to bet that the moment that women, en masse, start taking more of the risk in the relationship game, the “slut-hating” would disappear. But the fact is, most aren’t willing to do that. Why should they? (and if they are, that willingness quickly disappears the moment the rejection starts. “Guys get weirded out by a girl asking them out” they say. Right.)
Paul: “Think about it: Who does society show contempt for? The self-made millionaire or the trust fund baby? They’re both rich right? Why all the hate?”
I am not so sure about that. People who have it made right from the beginning can have a more easy going insouciant attitude, which a lot of people prefer to the determined and cynical attitude of somebody who has made his/her own success. Most often it’s only when the fortunate do not acknowledge their fortune and the fact that’s its not of their own making that other people dislike them. Otherwise fortunate people make good company.
I am not so sure about that. People who have it made right from the beginning can have a more easy going insouciant attitude, which a lot of people prefer to the determined and cynical attitude of somebody who has made his/her own success.
This is probably cultural. In the US, trustafarians are disliked much more than self-mades by the general population.
Brendan: I was thinking of people like George W Bush. If he would have been a self made millionaire I doubt that the voters would have liked him as much.
Brendan: I was thinking of people like George W Bush. If he would have been a self made millionaire I doubt that the voters would have liked him as much.
I don’t know. He didn’t run as a trust-funder, but tried to tout his experience as an oil executive. Sure, his family connections determined his life course, and everyone knew that, but he did make a big deal about his business background. Had he simply played golf and jetted around the world for fun for the 20 years before he was elected, I think that would have been held against him.
Another contra example is NYC mayor Michael Bloomberg, as is former Virginia governor Mark Warner.
I think someone with a personality like Donald Trump will rub a lot of people the wrong way, definitely, and someone like Lloyd Blankfein will also never get elected to office, but quite a few self-made wealthy people have done well in U.S. politics.
The poseurette who calls herself “Doomed Harlot” wrote:
You are missing the point. A person going for “street cred” as a “slut” would exaggerate her number of sex partners, no? So that can’t be right. Not to mention that that would be fucking stupid.
No, I’m not missing the point. You are pretending to be that which you are not. You
are a poseur.
Also, your vulgarity is both stupid and boring. Not to mention tedious, predictable, and puerile. No one here is shocked by your use of such a word, and it does not in any way make you appear to be all grown up and big. In fact, it’s rather the opposite effect; somewhat like an 8 year old clomping around in Mommy’s shoes, pretending she’s “a big girl”.
The point is two-fold — in many places, a woman with my sexual history WOULD be considered a “slut,” and two, I am identifying with the “sluts” because I want to do my very small part in robbing that concept of its power to shame.
First of all, name the places where your sexual history would be considered “slutty”, outside of perhaps Saudi Arabia I am hard pressed to think of any. No doubt you have that list ready to hand? Good, then you can easily provide it.
Second, you seem to believe that if the symbol can be altered, somehow the referent will go away. Sorry, this is magical thinking. If the word “slut” were somehow erased from everyone’s mind at the same instant, another word would in short order be coined for women who have a high partner count and thus are poor prospects for a long term relationship for men — and women would be using it to shame other women in short order.
You can play with words all you want. Reality is not altered by them.
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Doomed Harlot doesn`t sound all that bad to me. She’s not a slut, and I can understand the desire to neutralize the word. Men don’t like being pigeonholed either.
A couple observations:
1. Expect the greatest fighting to be between women over the word ‘slut’.
2. Central to the word ‘slut’ is the notion of respect. A woman who freely gives her resource away will not be respected. Men will pump and dump them. Women will hate them.
But in DH’s case her minor fling doesn’t qualify as slut material, and she knows that. She just wants the street cred, the recognition that shecould fuck a lot if she wanted to. Again, this points to a word that is largely a battle between women, over who is the “hottest bitch”. DH put on the stiletto heels, admired herself in the mirror, and wisely took the heels off and put them away:
Dignity intact?
Check.
Other women jealous?
Check.
Potential to fuck a lot if i want to on my own terms?
Check.
End of story.