And by good ol’ boys of the patriarchy, I of course mean the radical leftists of the Occupy Wall Street movement. Another article from the NY Post (H/T Professor Hale) tells us that the OWS crowd responded to a man allegedly raping a woman in her tent with overwhelming use of shaming language, and a good strong light shining to boot:
“Pervert! Pervert! Get the f–k out!” said vigilante Occupiers, who never bothered to call the cops.
“They were shining flashlights in his face and yelling at him to leave,” said a woman who called herself Leslie, but refused to give her real name.
She said that weeks earlier another woman was raped.
“We don’t tell anyone,” she said. “We handle it internally. I said too much already.”
The alleged rapist may well have suffered hurt feelings along with temporary night blindness. All without due process! I can only imagine if there had been a short man present with wide hips and a mask/helmet obscuring his face. It could have gotten ugly.
Denying reality gets expensive when there aren’t any adults in the room to protect you from the consequences of your own stupidity. Say what you will about the mother and wife from Florida, but she appears to have sensed the risk inherent in being a woman alone in a camp of vagrants and leftists with a pathological fear of using force against criminals.
On the bright side, at least the women in the Occupy Wall Street camp aren’t suffering from the traumatic experience of receiving victim blaming advice on strategies they can employ to make themselves less vulnerable to rape.
Blogger Derek Hunter reported several weeks ago on the security pamphlet he found being circulated in the Occupy Baltimore camp. According to him, the hard copy pamphlet stated that the preference was to keep the police out of such matters:
Though we do not encourage the involvement of the police in our community, the survivor has every right, and the support of Occupy Baltimore, to report the abuse to the appropriate law enforcement.
I checked the Occupy Baltimore website, and they have a posting up today titled Sexual Offense Policy which addresses the same issue. This public version however is more open to involving the police:
Instances of sexual abuse and assault will be handled according to the expressed desires of the victim. The Security and Medical teams are equipped with a list of resources, including contact information for the police, hospitals, sexual assault hotlines, and women’s shelters. In these instances, #occupybaltimore welcomes the involvement of the Baltimore City Police and encourages victims to report crimes. We also recognize that the U.S. Justice System is flawed, especially when it comes to cases of sexual assault. If for any reason the victim feels uncomfortable with police involvement, their wishes will be respected.
Fortunately the members of the Occupy Baltimore camp can now rest easy. Help is just a call away. If you find yourself being assaulted, all you have to do is call out the magic word:
Procedure
Victims can alert the Security Team using the all-purpose call, “Round-up!” to ensure immediate physical protection and subsequent enforcement of our policy.
Update: A commenter identifying himself as Stephen Tish has asserted the following regarding the hard copy memo Derek Hunter shared:
The “security memo” was never an actual proposal put forward by Occupy Baltimore. It was an individual’s proposal for policy that never got accepted by Occupy Baltimore.
I did some more searching on the Occupy Baltimore website, and found a discussion of what looks to be the same memo (don’t worry Occupy Baltimore webmaster, if the page is somehow lost I’ve made a backup copy):
The smear campaign on Breitbart’s website is a gross example of outright media misinformation. I post below, in full, the draft statement on sexual assault circulated by our security team for consideration by the General Assembly:
I haven’t checked it word for word, but the quote I referenced appears to be the same. Someone with the username admin identifying himself as Dan from the media team responded, including the statement:
As far as I know, there have been no reports of rape at OB. Our awesome security team drafted this with the idea that anything can happen, and wanted to throw as much support towards survivors of violence as possible.
What’s so perverted about heterosexual sex?
Granted, if against her will, it’s evil, but perverted? Abuse of the word.
They all be so stupid…
lol round up … is ows advertising for monsanto now ….
& instant swat teams & jail time for dmv & false rape, yes its flawed, just not flawed enough for ows & their man hating lesbians …
Though I empathize with your general sentiment that the culture of “blame the victim” is a pervasive problem especially in the city of Baltimore. I do not find supporting slanderous claims of rape does your sentiment a service but rather a disservice as it lessons the seriousness in which “blame the victim” needs to be taken. Instead of posting information based on internet trolls Andrew Breitbart (source of the “security memo” story) who will say anything to negatively impact the Occupy Movement. He’s the same person who edited video to attack Shirley Sherrod, if you don’t remember: http://www.mediaite.com/online/shirley-sherrod-sues-andrew-breitbart-over-edited-video/ There were reports that this young woman was doing crack and turning tricks in the park and was asked to leave by Occupy Baltimore security and thus her ax to grind.
The “security memo” was never an actual proposal put forward by Occupy Baltimore. It was an individual’s proposal for policy that never got accepted by Occupy Baltimore. Anyone may propose policy but only those that garner consensus at the General Assembly meeting will be accepted as official Occupy Baltimore policy. The Sexual Offense Policy you see on their page is the ONLY policy that has been officially accepted by the Occupy Baltimore movement. If you don’t like something with the current policy, please offer suggestions as we can make amendments at any time if agreed upon at General Assembly.
Please do yourself a service and try to keep yourself from getting baited by right-wing blogger trolls.
Stephen Tish – “If you don’t like something with the current policy, please offer suggestions as we can make amendments at any time if agreed upon at General Assembly.”
Well, well, well; look what the cat has drug in…
A honcho from the General Assembly of Occupy Baltimore. Gee, Dalrock, you’re getting noticed in all quarters these days.
Still, to his credit, it looks like Stephen Tish may be correct about the alleged rape being unfounded (although I can find nothing to back his claim that ”There were reports that this young woman was doing crack and turning tricks in the park and was asked to leave by Occupy Baltimore security and thus her ax to grind.”).
What I did find was this contained within a pseudo-new account:
Still, Fox 45 pushed ahead with the story line late yesterday – hours after police had issued their finding of no evidence of a sexual assault.
From the story, it seems the women was claiming that she woke up, unaware of what had happened to her, and missing $1,800, and begun yelling that she’d been assaulted, bring the verbal shamers and their flashlights.
Seems as though the “pervert” they ran-off might just have been some guy who happened dot be in the tent with her, and was probably just bewildered at what was happening [just my guess].
The supposed sexual assault appears to have been simply that “the cheek on her buttocks was sore”, and a SANE exam indicated no evidence of a sexual assault. [of course, all this is from a self-serving (from the Occupy Baltimore perspective) report, so it may be purposefully under-plying the alleged non-event].
Given my radical right-wing politics, I’m rather sympathetic to the Occupussies rejection of police involvement; having myself been subjected to an attempted civic witch hunt, I consider the calling the police a last resort. NACALT, of course, but here in Calgary we have a particularly broken department. Partly, I don’t want to subject someone to their life-eating bureaucracy, and partly I recognize that the cops here have no interest in retrieving stolen property, or defending the innocent. They’re just hungry for warm bodies to feed to the hopper.
I am a strong advocate of bottom-up organization; throughout most of history we didn’t need police, and their creation has gone hand-in-hand with increased violence (correlation, causation, et cetera, but they certainly get more funding when there’s more crime). I think it’s a noble initiative for a community to recognize that they themselves have the tools to ensure their own security; that they aren’t a bunch of sheep in need of a sheep dog.
However, the critical word in that last sentence was ‘community’. The Occupussies are not a homogenous community. They have no borders, and are thus being swarmed by outsiders – troublemakers, homeless, the morally callow, the criminally minded. Without borders to entry, a community cannot self-organize, or even generate a civic ethic.
They’re doing it wrong. Police protection is needed.
@slwerner
The first story with the shamers and the flashlights responding to an alleged rapist was from the NY Post, and had to do with the camp there on Wall Street. I haven’t seen any allegations of rapes in Baltimore. I included the information another blogger had shared on Occupy Baltimore to give a sense of how another camp in the same larger movement was handling this.
Aurini – excellent points. I’d also add they are trying to form a community without hierarchy. Or if they have hierarchy, it’s reserved for the least qualified.
Stephen – y’all are babes in the woods. Come inside before somebody gets hurt.
@Aurini
I agree. The problem the Occupy [location] movement has is that they are embracing all of the radical left’s ideals at once. Normal communities have a built in aid in safety by not trusting outsiders. This alone would probably bring them a great deal of security. So would a belief in the use of force for self defense, or more patriarchal forms of establishing security. Or they could do as the radical left normally does and let the police fill in the gap created by their unwillingness to be responsible for their own security. But this is the radical nature of the movement itself, with all of their General Assemblies and other committees of the people, etc. This is what happens when willfully naive college radicals have a chance to try to put their reality denying beliefs into practice.
Oops! It seems I’ve errantly conflated the story from the Zuccotti Park with the apparent non-rape at Occupy Baltimore. Seems that no one came rushing to the aid of the woman who though she might have been raped and robbed in the Baltimore incident, and of course, that would mean no “pervert” was shamed away either.
I apologize for my confusion in assuming that the shaming had happened at the Baltimore incident, and any and all personal angst and suffering I may have caused anyone by my adding my unsubstantiated editorial comment.
“Using the all-purpose call, “Round-up!” “General Assembly,” “Dan from the media team”, “shamers”.
First as tragedy, then as farce.
Never mind slwerner, I’m sure that with enough crystals and reiiki (sp? not that I much care) they can heal the aura of the maybe / maybe not karmic incident.
I have some high hopes of these camps…that some of these ‘happier living in a yurt on lentils and yak milk’ will grow up.
Even if they don’t they’ll have to take my gadgets away from my cold, dead hands…and I won’t go back to the 10th century without them feeling a lot of ’emotional bruising’, at the very least.
I wouldn’t mind so much, but these social leeches seem very happy to take my taxes whilst spitting in my eye. Similarly, nothing wrong with modern medicine when their prayers for healing don’t work out.
They appear to have never grown out of the hard-of-thinking teenage emo-whinging teen daze
Ahh Just1X, so you’re happy with the amount of influence corporations have on our political process? You like that it doesn’t matter if we vote for a Republican or Democrat because they’re both in the deep pockets of industry and corporations meaning that before they’ve even been elected to office they’ve already sold out the American people. You think corporations should be people and have all the rights of citizenship without having to follow any rules of actually becoming a citizen. You’re looking forward to bailing out the banks again as we edge ever closer to the double-dip recession. You support this government being of corporations for corporate interests and mock the idea of a government of the people for the people. Let’s be honest here. Come out and say that you hate democracy and openly support plutocracy. At least know what you defend. The unexamined life is not worth living.
Try reading this before suggesting ignorant minutiae that doesn’t actually address the very real and serious problems with this nation: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1
@Stephen Tish:
You seem to be reading quite a bit into someone mocking the “Hippy communes” that have sprung-up as part of the “Occupy” movement.
I can’t speak for Just1X, but I will tell you that whatever credibility the Occupiers might have had with main-stream America they managed to “blow” with their side-gig of re-creating the free-love communes of the 60’s, where the likes of Stacey Hessler can use the excuse of supporting the movement to ditch her husband and family and go to shack-up with some guy(s) for a while.
It’s hard to take seriously people who act in such selfish and childish ways, pretending it’s oh so important that they camp-out, do drugs, and have sex to make a socio-economic political point.
It’s like Just1X calls it, “They appear to have never grown out of the hard-of-thinking teenage emo-whinging teen daze.”
Is there a word that is more annoyingly overused than “survivor”?
“Is there a word that is more annoyingly overused than “survivor”?”
Yes – “victim”
I’m surprised PUAs haven’t showed up en masse to game female occupiers and get laid in tents. Oh wait, they already have!
[D: What are you talking about?]
It’s extremely easy for a person right now to be both against the entire American system of government, and against the bailouts, and against the position of Wall Street, and still be completely opposed to the ‘Occupy protesters’.
It’s a group of people who apparently have nothing better to do than sit around and complain about their problems, yet fail to come up with any actual plans or aims. It’s a ‘movement’ that doesn’t even know where it wants to go, let alone how to get there. The odd demand that does come out shows a serious failure to grasp reality. It’s an entirely mockable ‘movement’, even if you were to completely hate the same things.
In my city, the university newspaper mentioned Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt, and then urged citizens to join in the world-wide movement! The students are so delusional as to compare people fighting for freedom from oppression, terror, and death to Greeks complaining that the money for cushy benefits has run out, let alone comparing to a local situation where the complaints are…a poorly-spending city council, and a dominant provincial political party which is regularly re-elected in free votes…
It shows an egregious lack of reasoning ability – unsurprising based on the group’s apparent plan to hang out in a city park until everything magically fixes itself into… whatever undefined nirvana would be satisfactory.
[D: Well put.]
So uh, the point to this post is what? That rape has happened at an OWS camp? Ya, really think it happens nowhere else? That they’d rather handle it internally than involve Big Brother? Gee isn’t that what rightists fighting for “smaller government” prefer – that the people rely on themselves rather than the government? Are these rape victims somehow forcibly prevented from contacting the police on their own? Seems this story is really just an opportunity for its author to name call with little real reasoning behind it. And here I thought Dalrock was a reasonable man driven by logic.
[D: The far left is always carping about rape being swept under the rug. No amount of hoop jumping by the rest of society is enough for them. We are all guilty of promoting rape culture!
Then they set up their own camp and… (wait for it)… sweep it under the rug.
Did you really not get it the first time?]
“It’s a group of people who apparently have nothing better to do than sit around and complain about their problems, yet fail to come up with any actual plans or aims.” Hey that sounds like the GOP, Tea Party, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and every single one of its viewers. See, rightists have more in common with the OWS people than they realize!
[D: The far left is always carping about rape being swept under the rug. No amount of hoop jumping by the rest of society is enough for them. We are all guilty of promoting rape culture!
Then they set up their own camp and… (wait for it)… sweep it under the rug.
Did you really not get it the first time?]
I get easily confused when people start classing and conflating movements, arguments, protests into left, right, or whatever. It’s hard for me to brand an entire movement or their argument because *some* engage in activities that *others* class as hewing to a particular stripe. Personally, I don’t care if they are lefties, righties, tighties, whities, hippies, dippies, drippys, or royalty. They have a beef and one that a growing number of people in the west have: the current financial system is serving the few at the expense of the many. Who cares who delivers the message or how they comb their hair? Either accept the message because you agree or don’t because you don’t agree. End of story
Dalrock, remember that sexual assault encompasses a wider range of activity than what is technically and legally considered “rape”. On University campuses across the nation there are committees and boards designated to deal with sexual assault in addition to going to the police and hiring a lawyer if the student so wishes. It doesn’t mean that such assaults are being swept under the carpet.
“I get easily confused when people start classing and conflating movements, arguments, protests into left, right, or whatever. It’s hard for me to brand an entire movement or their argument because *some* engage in activities that *others* class as hewing to a particular stripe.”
Exactly. I wondered where the “far left” labeling came from.
And since no rape happened in this case, and nothing got swept under the rug, and the OWS did not
issue an official manifesto or even a dictum telling anyone not to report a rape, this is all a non-issue. And quite an embarrassing one for those who latched onto it, I might add.
@MIX
No one in this discussion discredited the NY Post article I quoted which stated that two separate rapes had occurred at the Occupy Wall Street camp. A member of Occupy Baltimore mistook that for a totally different report in his city, and debunked a claim I never referenced.
One more time for the slow kids. The Occupy Baltimore Security Team wrote and circulated a memo which was specific to sexual assault. It included the text I quoted:
I linked to a blogger who scanned the hard copy of this security statment. Someone from Occupy Baltimore posted the full text on the Occupy Baltimore website last month, and a member of the “Media Team” confirmed that it was written and circulated by the security team. I’ve provided links to all of this, including the NY Post story about Occupy Wall Street where the woman said:
Aurini says:
“However, the critical word in that last sentence was ‘community’. The Occupussies are not a homogenous community. They have no borders, and are thus being swarmed by outsiders – troublemakers, homeless, the morally callow, the criminally minded. Without borders to entry, a community cannot self-organize, or even generate a civic ethic.”
Well first off, I was with you up to this point and TBH, I don’t consider anything you stated to be “radically right.” That said, show me any modern “community” walled and guarded to the degree you suggest the OWS people should do. Secondly, as for the likes of those you seem to think OWS protesters are duty bound to root out and whose presence you seem to think invalidates the OWS protesters argument, Scott Walker (the governor of Wisconsin) was caught looking into putting “trouble makers” into legitimate protests against his activities as governor of Wisconsin in order to disgrace the protest. Morally callow? You may be Canadian but I am certain that you are aware that one of the biggest problems the USA faces is that the “morally callow” infest every inch of our government and big business sectors. Homeless!? Plenty of homeless are more trustworthy than those we vote into office. And I’d dare say the criminal element among the homeless is limited.
The OWS community can no better stop the types you mentioned from being in their community than Calgary can, than New York can, than Canada can, than the USA can.
@GT66
You missed his point. He wasn’t calling the OWS protesters rapists, he was saying they can’t rely on community cohesion to maintain security. They need a formal security force which is up to the task, which is the police. You basically made his point for him.
@dalrock
Not to mention that they simply have no authority to engage in law enforcement, or for that matter to even have any sort of private security on public property.
“I’m surprised PUAs haven’t showed up en masse to game female occupiers and get laid in tents. Oh wait, they already have!”
Why wld any decent pua even want to go near an unsanitary hole like ows … ?
He probably means puas causing buyers remorse or something after gaming feminist hippie chicks…
I have no problem with ppl risking unsanitary conditions & life & limb for a cause they believe in, student loans, mortgages, & debt society in general is designed to screw ppl over, regardless of income or qualifications
What i find astonishing is the insane political correctness of the ows, ive never seen so many anti-establisment hippies toeing corporate fascist ideology such as political correctness in a protest movement of this scale before
Maybe the whole point of the OWS is to popularise anti-libertarian fascism, as theres nothing libertarian about their politically correct bs
Dalrock says:
@GT66
The OWS community can no better stop the types you mentioned from being in their community than Calgary can, than New York can, than Canada can, than the USA can.
You missed his point. He wasn’t calling the OWS protesters rapists, he was saying they can’t rely on community cohesion to maintain security. They need a formal security force which is up to the task, which is the police. You basically made his point for him.
Well, I get that (and I never said he called everyone a rapist (!?)), but he has a mighty roundabout way of making that point. At one point he says “throughout most of history we didn’t need police, and their creation has gone hand-in-hand with increased violence[…]. I think it’s a noble initiative for a community to recognize that they themselves have the tools to ensure their own security; that they aren’t a bunch of sheep in need of a sheep dog.”
But then he seems to redefine community in order to exclude OWS and thereby invalidates his own belief to make his argument that OWS not being a community need police. Iffy to say the least since, OWS could very well be any community however, the law would call OWS protesters creating their own security force vigilantes or worse and we’ve seen how the government responds to those who attempt to *truly* create their own community.
Yes, OWS needs the police but not because they aren’t a community and not because they can’t do it themselves but because if they did they would really run afoul of the man and his need for total authority. His reasoning appears to be that they are in over their heads. Mine is they are constrained in their ability to self police by the “man.”
OWS is an interesting social study on what happens in Leftist social groups when traditional patriarchal authorities and social mores are removed.
It becomes a free-for-all for fucktards, no wonder idiots like Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Ceausescu floated to the top.
I’m sorry for my over-the-top language I’m still pissed off at the communists for confiscating my grandfathers only horse (and his only means of employment).
GT66 – “Mine is they are constrained in their ability to self police by the “man.””
Not a very compelling argument, I’m afraid.
The the not too distant past, the freedom of mobs to do some self-policing meant that any black man who was even accused of raping a white women could pretty much count on be lynched.
Lot’s of folks have a beef with police and law enforcement (with some good reasons, at times), but, clearly, “the Man” isn’t always holding people back from doing the best thing. Not allowing a mob of citizens to function as police, judge, jury, and executioner is just one entirely PROPER constraint.
Hey Dalrock, write a new posting! Have you seen this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056869/Fathers-grandparents-denied-right-children-divorce.html
TFH is also sleeping, chasing up his lost surrogate money: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2053658/Woman-conned-childless-couple-savings-posing-surrogate-mother.html
What is greenlander doing? Inverting a linked list? Hey, no matter recursive or iterative, this task should take less than 10 LOC and not more than 15 minutes! 😀
“the OWS did not
issue an official manifesto or even a dictum telling anyone not to report a rape…”
@ dalrock,
“One more time for the slow kids. The Occupy Baltimore Security Team wrote and circulated a memo which was specific to sexual assault. It included the text I quoted:
Though we do not encourage the involvement of the police in our community, the survivor has every right, and the support of Occupy Baltimore, to report the abuse to the appropriate law enforcement.”
And one more time for you, I said, “the OWS did not
issue an official manifesto or even a dictum telling anyone not to report a rape”
and there you have it qoute by noneother than you,
“the survivor has every right, and the support of Occupy Baltimore, to report the abuse to the appropriate law enforcement.”
Look at that – they have every right and even get the support of Occupy Baltimore!
I’m also of the opinion that not every sexual assault needs to involve police. If that were the case, there would be more PUAs in jail than just Gunwitch.
You are aware that much of what PUA recommends, and what regular guys and girls do in normal club settings falls under official “sexual assault” catergory these days, aren’t you?
Mix – “I’m also of the opinion that not every sexual assault needs to involve police.”
In this case, the example in question was a reported attempted rape. (plus the suggestion that another rape attempt was completed, but kept silent. would either of these incidents be enough to report to real authorities, or is it enough that the perp was shamed-off (in this one attempt) 50% of the time?
If there are actually rapes being perpetrated, then any effort to convince the victims to “keep it in the community” and not involve “the Man” is likely only going to encourage more opportunistic rapists.
Without considering any “gray area” hypothetical’s, we have in one instance a woman specifically applauding a hush-up:
“She said that weeks earlier another woman was raped.
“We don’t tell anyone,” she said. “We handle it internally. I said too much already.;
and, in another instance, what can be taken to have been a strong effort to dissuade police involvement.
Neither may have been “official policy”, but both suggest that some OWSer’s certain would prefer self-policing, regardless of any actual ability to do so.
Rmaxd: “Why wld any decent pua …”
Decent pua? Now that’s an oxymoron if ever I heard one. 😉
Dalrock,
Thanks for noticing. I also find the statement by the Baltimore Occupy branch to be amusing. They guarantee access by the victims to the police, something they neither provide nor control, and they give unqualified support to the “victim” to not go to the police, again, something they have no say over. They are not providing their own security in any sense and when push comes to shove, the adults will step in. It is typical of the parasites in society to depend on the host for everything even without any understanding of how it got there or who pays for it all.
slwerner says: “GT66 – “Mine is they are constrained in their ability to self police by the “man.””
Not a very compelling argument, I’m afraid.
The the not too distant past, the freedom of mobs to do some self-policing meant that any black man who was even accused of raping a white women could pretty much count on be lynched.
Lot’s of folks have a beef with police and law enforcement (with some good reasons, at times), but, clearly, “the Man” isn’t always holding people back from doing the best thing. Not allowing a mob of citizens to function as police, judge, jury, and executioner is just one entirely PROPER constraint.”
I get what you’re saying but honestly, these groups of people aren’t divinely chosen. What are governments and police but functionaries chosen by mobs of citizens to be *the* singular policing force among the citizen “mob” of a town or state or country? That means that ANY group of individuals can organize a system of justice equally as effective or ineffective as what we currently have. It seems that you make an assumption that 1) there is always a better alternative that has already been chosen and is the current force and 2) that no organization of people can produce or choose something better but will instead always descend into vigilantism. I would say that is incorrect. Also, don’t mistake “authority” to police or govern as being immutable and don’t mistake the government’s or police’s exercising of that authority as pursuit of justice rather than just a response to squashing challenges to their market monopoly which is usually what is really happening.
They could be self policing, probably because the cops hate the ows, & the constant beat downs & physical violence, they violently apply to the ows literally every day
This is fascist corporate thugs we’re referring to btw
& all protestors regardless of their stance, have a hatred of the police as a rule & for good reason, conservative brainwashed thugs like the police hate ppl standing for their rights,
Just like most good old fascists, freedom & equality are bywords for competition, rather than inalienable rights
Freedom & equality ironically are also words hated by most feminists, its satisfying to see a feminist, or politically correct fascist, getting hauled to jail by even bigger man hating fascist white knight cops
Just dont mention inalienable rights or equality for white males lining up to speak, the lesbian mexican in front might start shouting round up for the latest fashionable thought crime
“GT66 says:
“It’s a group of people who apparently have nothing better to do than sit around and complain about their problems, yet fail to come up with any actual plans or aims.” Hey that sounds like the GOP, Tea Party, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and every single one of its viewers. See, rightists have more in common with the OWS people than they realize!”
Did you notice that I didn’t self-identify as a rightie? Nor denigrate the OWSers as leftists? My point stands regardless of the failures of any others – it’s a pathetic ‘protest’ with no plan and no point. Even if other groups were equally bad (an assertion I won’t agree or disagree with, since it doesn’t matter to this), it still doesn’t make OWS any better a ‘movement’. A ‘movement’ has to be going somewhere. I’ve often mocked protest groups which declare what they want, yet have no plan at all for how it would be possible to get there (usually because it simply isn’t, outside of deluded dreaming heads). But OWS goes even further – they don’t even have demands or a goal, let alone a way to reach that goal!
It’s ridiculous, and even more so when they attempt to characterize themselves in solidarity with real groups protesting real issues with real desires – for things like democracy and freedom of speech.
@ Professor Hale, “It is typical of the parasites in society to depend on the host for everything even without any understanding of how it got there or who pays for it all.”
The prostestors pay for it all. What, you don’t think they work and pay taxes too?
The Occupy Movement has no point? They have several. One being that the government should not bail out corporations with American tax dollars. Another being that American jobs should not be outsourced to foreign sweat shops.
How is it that these points have gone over your head?
If you view the youtube videos of police brutality at the protests then you will understand WHY there is distrust in the police. And go view them quick because GOOGLE is being told by both corporations and the government to remove them. Some are already gone.
How is it that these points have gone over your head?
Not gone over my head. landed in the dirt at my feet and are not worth stooping to pick up.
1. By reading their signs, I learn that what they are against is capitalism in all its forms. Corporate bailouts are just one of their targets.
2. There is no such thing as American jobs. jobs exist in America because capitalists create them to produce a specifi product. When a competitor in another country beats them in the market the worker in America loses and he has to find another job. But the job never really belonged to him, so he didn’t lose anything. American investors have no moral obligation to invest in losing industries just so that people they don’t know in America will have jobs instead of people they don’t know in Brazil.
3. I have seen nothig by unnatural restrain by the police in every OWS venue in the USA. I attribute this to very tight political control over the police. Every major city is governed by liberals who are themselves communists and ideologically aligned with the protestors. They want the protests to continue so police are restrained from enforcing the laws. The Occupy DC crowd is occupying parks without the permits that everyone else would have to get. They are doing it without the city planning and oversight that everyone else would have to get. And there are very much overstaying their welcome. Yet they are still there and no police have moved it to evict them.
Dalrock,
“Why I cheated on my husband” http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/sex/why-i-cheated-on-my-husband-2596381/
The cognitive dissonance in this article is so bad its hilarious.
Professor Hale:
1) Strawman fallacy. You read some signs and attribute your own thoughts. By extension, “capitalism in all its forms” can be good, or bad. Unrestricted capitalism has unintended consequences. Monopolies, and slavery are two unintended forms of unrestricted free markets. They are the very antithesis of the American ideal. It is not wrong to be against these things? Should we be for all forms of capitalism now?
2) Jobs exist in America because PEOPLE exist in America. Communities exist in America. “Capitalists” have nothing to do with it. Losing industries would not exist if not for supposed “free trade policies” like FTAA, NAFTA, CAFTA, among others, that benefit the corporate shareholders.
3) Oakland. The incidents in the past week alone are enough to shoot down this argument.
I suggest you dust of your copies of Tocqueville, Smith, and Ricardo, or buy them if you have not. You’ve gone off the deep end.
Who cares? Women rarely care about men being raped in prison or boys being molested by women. In fact, both men and women laugh at sexual assault and treat it as a joke if the victim is male. Why should I care if a woman receives a bruised vagina from having sex forced on her for a few minutes? Most women treat being raped as a badge of honor to brag about how men find them desirable enough to rape them.
“Every major city is governed by liberals who are themselves communists”
Commies? SMH. Back to the red scare.
I have to admit that I don’t see the point. Perhaps because I just started reading this blog recently and am not familiar with the politics and interest with OWS as much as I am with the gender relationship content. Personally I am libertarian ( far right or far left depending on who is making the accusation) and support very limited government. In other words, I also would never intentionally involve the police, a big government statist organization, in any of my affairs. Is this a statist neocon blog or something ( I didn’t get that impression)? Or is this an attempt to point out some hypocrisy with the assumed big-government leanings of OWS?
Apologies for the OT nature of this post, but Liz Jones (who’s been covered on this blog before) has just contributed another charming screed over on the Daily Maul.
This is just how bat-sh*t crazy the hamster can become before the final jump.
(H/T The other Jim over at The Spearhead – Bill Bennet response)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2056875/Liz-Jones-baby-craving-drove-steal-husbands-sperm-ultimate-deception.html
@L
“3. I have seen nothig by unnatural restrain by the police in every OWS venue in the USA. I attribute this to very tight political control over the police.
Every major city is governed by liberals who are themselves communists and ideologically aligned with the protestors. They want the protests to continue so police are restrained from enforcing the laws. ”
Check out literally the hundreds of police assaults & violence on the ows, at youtube,
If you had any familiarity with activism, you would know places like the ows are highly dangerous & unsanitary places, precisely because of the constant police presence
All extended protests usually turn into covert or overt violent bloodbaths by the police, as the independant & mainstream media clearly show happening at the ows
Communism or liberalism as its called in america, is the underpinning movement used by capitalists like the bank, to effect the change’s we’re seeing in society today
Liberalism is in effect well marketed & well funded, by major capitalists like wallstreet
Your assertion isnt caused by capitalists is in fact baseless
It’s almost ironic the OWS movement is filled with lesbian feminists & politically correct ethnic minorities
@The Anti Gnostic
You’re right, I completely forgot about ‘hierarchy’ – without a set system of order – when Authority and Responsibility are democratized – you wind up having neither Authority or Responsibility. For a system to work, you need leaders, who are held accountable for their decisions. When everybody is equal, nobody is responsible.
@Dalrock
You just identified one of the things that drives me nuts about the Left (it pisses me off so much that I tend to block it): the fact that they will celebrate their non-violence, and look down upon a “Potentially Violent Man”, while hiring security forces to do their dirty work for them. They refuse to admit that they’re on the same moral level as the butcher – they’ll eat the steak, but pretend they’re morally superior since they didn’t murder the cow. Self-defence is always wrong, but when they hire unaccountable, jack-booting thugs, it’s fine.
@GT66
I am having a lot of trouble following your arguments. I think I’ll just give some examples of how a responsible, gun-toting, police-free modern community might protect itself without walled compounds.
In a civically-responsible suburban neighbourhood, the people would know one another; they’d be prepared to defend one another; if they saw a group of teenagers walking along with cans of spray paint, they’d keep their eyes open, in the spirit of “it takes a community to raise a child”. A good cop can tell the difference between a goth kid, and a school shooter; a bad-boy-biker and a potential-rapist. The signs are in the body language. A society of responsible adults – not the terrified, timid sheep who call the cops at the drop of a hat – would likewise be able to recognize the difference between Good Citizens, and troublemakers.
Criminal elements are not hard to spot, if you have any training in violence. And if the average citizen refuses to tolerate BS (rather than turning a blind eye, as they presently do) there’d be a lot less BS going around, and escalating to violence.
The homeless are not bad people – I have a lot of sympathy towards them – but they are disruptive of social norms. They need help (I’m a huge supporter of The Mustard Seed), but if you allow them to sleep on park benches, and defacate in the street, trouble will follow. Allow them to mix freely with college kids protesting, and things are going to get weird. Being homeless de-socializes you.
And yes, there are manipulators throughout government and big business – democracy encourages the rule by narcissists and psychopaths (hystrionics and borderlines flock towards the non-profits). However, these ones temper their anti-social behaviour to a certain extent. When you have a huge group of people who reject all violence (including self-defence), as well as sexual propriety, you will have the low-IQ, impulse control degenerates of society entering their area, and a tragedy of the commons results.
The nature of the protest makes borders impossible; their rejection of authority and violence makes self-policing impossible; ergo, violence will be endemic. The Tea Party is full of the sort of Citizens who carry weapons, and take responsibility for their community – they’ll accept cops, but they don’t need them. The OWers, on the other hand, want to live in an equalist fantasy world – they have all the civic sofistication of children.
In a civically-responsible suburban neighbourhood, the people would know one another; they’d be prepared to defend one another; if they saw a group of teenagers walking along with cans of spray paint, they’d keep their eyes open, in the spirit of “it takes a community to raise a child”.
I agree with this one, it’s basic community-oriented policing/neighborhood watch practices.
A good cop can tell the difference between a goth kid, and a school shooter; a bad-boy-biker and a potential-rapist. The signs are in the body language. A society of responsible adults – not the terrified, timid sheep who call the cops at the drop of a hat – would likewise be able to recognize the difference between Good Citizens, and troublemakers.
It takes years of experience and a lot of training to create a good cop. I do not believe that the average citizen, no matter how well-intentioned, would be able to always discern the difference between the people that you’ve named. If you look at American history, and sections of the U.S. who didn’t have an organized system of justice and people designated to enforce the laws, what happened was mob rule and vigilante justice, even up into the early 20th century.
History suggests that the masses are easily panicked and prone to overreaction…even good-hearted folks from the suburbs. Racism, bigotry, and mass hysteria can add to the overreactions.
This is a link to a story about a number of lynchings that took place in my dad’s hometown. It has relevance to this discussion:
http://www.news-leader.com/article/20060414/NEWS01/604140328/1906-lynchings-grew-from-tensions-racism
Mob hangings, too, were not uncommon in the Ozarks in the late 1800s, when sheriff’s departments could be a full day’s ride from rural backwoods of some counties. Vigilante justice was sometimes the preferred method of dealing with accused thieves, rapists and murderers — black and white…
In August 1901, a white woman was found with her throat slashed in Pierce City. Two black man were arrested and one, William Godley, was lynched. The mob then began shooting and torching houses in Pierce City’s black neighborhood, home to about 300. Two men were killed. Within a day, the entire black population had fled, never to return….
The article goes on, and gets even more to the point I’m trying to express.
@Dubious Wonder
This is one topic neither side will see the other on. With that said, I’ll point out that your need to dig so far back (over 100 years) for historical proof of your assertion should make the point in and of itself. A relevant test would be what would happen if you allowed the average citizen to carry a loaded, concealed firearm in their car with no licensing requirement. Would bedlam ensue if the average man and woman were allowed to keep a loaded .45 in their glove box? Or would it go unnoticed?
A relevant test would be what would happen if you allowed the average citizen to carry a loaded, concealed firearm in their car with no licensing requirement. Would bedlam ensue if the average man and woman were allowed to keep a loaded .45 in their glove box? Or would it go unnoticed?
I guess it depends on how you define average citizen. I have spent years working in the section of the community where “average citizens” are already carrying unlicensed weapons, and some of those places have a bedlam-esque quality to them. On the other hand, I’m not an anti-gun nut. I have no problems with non-criminals owning guns.
You don’t have to go back 100 years, you just have to look outside the boundaries of the civilized west for places where there isn’t a system of justice. I don’t have to search for that link, I’m familiar with the story because Missouri is my home state and my dad grew up in that area. It was the first example on the top of my head.
@Dubious Woman
Rereading your original comment I see you were referring specifically to situations where there was no organized form of justice, not to ordinary citizens being armed to protect themselves. I think unorganized systems can probably function for a period of time under the right conditions, but I tend to agree with your general assessment.
“A good cop can tell the difference between a goth kid, and a school shooter; a bad-boy-biker and a potential-rapist. The signs are in the body language. A society of responsible adults – not the terrified, timid sheep who call the cops at the drop of a hat – would likewise be able to recognize the difference between Good Citizens, and troublemakers.”
I think you’re giving too much credit to cops … lol
Most cops are now corporatist & a large part of the policeforce come from private contractors,
The dichotomy of the good cop, bad cop has been replaced by the mercenary, which is why we see so much police violence on the street, & why communities need to police themselves & arm their families
Mercenaries ie. the modern day police force, are not paid to protect communities or families
@kathy
“Rmaxd: “Why wld any decent pua …”
Decent pua? Now that’s an oxymoron if ever I heard one. ;)”
Lol I just spotted your comment, personally i enjoy pua, as a male it pushes you out of the feminism most mothers spout at their sons all day long
Also there is no way my own father would ever give the much needed advice about women in general, even though he never took crap from my mother, he loved his own mother lol … strictly a mommas boy, momma boys dont tell the truth about their moms, not even to their sons …
It’s interesting how the more traditionalist MRA’s such as Elam gang up with the women, against a purely male endeavour
Oh btw, women love indecent PUA’s lol … @kathy so yea id agree with your statement about decent pua’s …
I slightly different take on some of the OWSers:
Opulent homes of ‘the 99 percent’ [SLIDESHOW]
@ rmaxd
I don’t know who you are addressing [you quoted Hale’s point number 3,] nor what you said [as none of it made any sense.
Most cops are now corporatist & a large part of the policeforce come from private contractors,
The dichotomy of the good cop, bad cop has been replaced by the mercenary, which is why we see so much police violence on the street, & why communities need to police themselves & arm their families
Source for this information? There is a difference between private security officers hired by corporations to protect their interests and “cops.” I’d be interested to see some evidence that “a large part of the [American] police force come from private contractors.” This is simply not true. The overwhelming majority of police officers (and sheriffs) in the U.S. are civil servants.
“POLICE OFFICERS ARE “PRIVATE CONTRACTORS”
Rodney Class was cited for a traffic violation by the local police department. He filed into the court a Judicial Review for an Administrative ruling on this violation.
The Dallas, North Carolina Police Department moved for dismissal of the case with prejudice stating that the officers are “Private Contractors”, therefore the court does not have jurisdiction.”
http://unmasker4maine.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/police-officers-are-private-contractors/
“Private contractors outnumber government security two to one
The recent increase in private security contractors has been driven primarily by — government cutbacks that have resulted in the hiring of private security to fulfill core security functions like immigration enforcement, prison surveillance, and airport security.
The report added that contractors can be “hired and fired faster than uniformed personnel and can therefore be deployed more flexibly, which is more affordable in the long run than maintaining a permanent in-house capability.” Changes to government policy has also spurred demand with more militaries like the United States hiring contractors for maintenance and training to allow troops to focus on combat troops.
In some countries, the difference between private security contractors and law enforcement officials is even more significant. For instance, according to the Small Arms Survey, conducted by researchers at the Graduate Institute of Geneva, India is home to seven million private security personal compared to one million police officers, while in Guatemala there are 120,000 private security contractors compared to 20,000 police officers.”
The above is from
http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/private-contractors-outnumber-government-security-two-one
& then you have smaller areas like west midlands in the u.k, this is just the tip of the iceberg, & the increasing use of for hire security, ie mercenaries, a large portion especially groups like homeland security, & blackwater are militarily trained mercenaries
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2011/09/04/west-midlands-police-counter-terrorism-unit-hires-private-contractors-to-cover-for-cuts-in-staffing-97319-29362007/
“CASH-strapped West Midlands Police is secretly having to hire private security staff to bolster its stretched counter-terrorism unit.
The force has been taking on private sector contractors to help out at the unit, which is based at Birmingham International Airport and deals with sensitive investigations.
Outside workers, who must undergo security services-style vetting, are being drafted in to help with time-consuming tasks including CCTV viewing and computer analysis.
The agency workers are being hired from a company called G4S Policing Solutions, an arm of global security giant G4S, which was previously known as Group 4 Securicor.
West Midlands Police began taking on agency workers for counter-terror work at the end of last year – after it announced plans to forcibly retire 1,200 experienced officers.
Ironically, many of the G4S-registered security staff taken on by the force are former West Midlands officers who were made to retire.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/content/view/full/111113
Private police officers ‘unaccountable’ to IPCC
“With proposed cuts to policing numbers, it is believed that forces will rely more and more on private-sector employees.
Campaign group Inquest co-director Helen Shaw said that this was a matter of grave concern.
“Creeping privatisation could result in boundaries being blurred and people who are not accountable being in positions of responsibility.
“The more you have private companies involved in this kind of work the harder it is to hold them to account and G4S’s track record is not great in this country or elsewhere in the world.
“It is a matter of real concern regarding a system which already fails many families of those who have died in custody.”
The issues were first highlighted in the case of Gary Reynolds, who was found in a coma in his police cell in Brighton in 2008. He had not been taken to hospital despite having suffered a serious head injury.
The IPCC said there had been collective failures by custody sergeants and private contractors.
While three police officers were given words of advice, the IPCC said that it had no jurisdiction over the private contractors from Reliance Security.
A Home Office spokesperson said: “The Home Secretary has asked the IPCC to consider whether it needs further powers to investigate institutional failings of a police force including the ability to question civilians.
“They are due to respond by the end of the year.
“We are also considering what types of contracted out staff the police complaints system should apply to.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1145581/Body-charge-UK-policing-policy-18m-year-brand-charging-public-70-60p-criminal-records-check.html
“The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), which oversees everything from anti-terrorism policy to speed cameras, was last night facing demands that it be disbanded, following a Mail on Sunday investigation
Until now, ACPO’s central role in policing has not been questioned as it is seen as an essential, if sometimes controversial, public body writing the rules on police operations as well as campaigning on key issues such as the proposed 90-day detention for terror suspects and the DNA database.
But the organisation is not a public body, nor is it a police trade union or even a campaign group. It is a private company – a self-styled ‘global brand name’ – paid millions of pounds a year by the taxpayer to effectively run the nation’s police forces.
Because ACPO is a private company, members of the public cannot use the Freedom of Information Act to scrutinise its operations. Last night it came under fire from politicians and human rights lawyers, who called for its immediate reform.
Shami Chakrabarti, director of the civil rights group Liberty, questioned whether ACPO’s role as a company with increasing national powers was ‘legal’. She said: ‘They need to be stopped in their tracks.’
At the centre of the controversy are the services ‘sold’ by ACPO and over which it has a monopoly.
The association is headed by former Sussex Chief Constable Sir Ken Jones, who earns £138,702 a year and receives a further £30,000 in pension contributions on top of his existing police pension.
Thats all the stuff im going to post on this issue, apologies to dalrock if the above count as spam …