Crass site/post warning, but if that doesn’t deter you check out 5 Easy Steps to Get Him to Propose:
1. Do your market research. Determine what the men you find attractive want in a wife, then give it to them. If you’re not willing to do this, then on behalf of men everywhere, I invite you to shut up and stop bitching about not being married. Shaming your customers into buying your product only works on women and beta males (women). And no, banging a different man every three months on your way to the serial monogamy hall of fame is not market research.
2. Advertise something he does not already have and is likely to value. You’re strong, independent, successful, challenging, aggressive and assertive? Well la-dee-da; he is too. In fact, if you’re considering him as a marriage prospect, he probably has all of that in spades. Try offering him something he doesn’t have and is likely to value. I bet he’s not feminine, soft, sweet, caring, kind, gentle or maternal, and I’ll bet he values those traits and doesn’t see them as a weakness like you do for some reason. A man interested in marriage is not looking for an executive, author, clinician, comedian, artist, pilot, politician, researcher, HR representative, best friend, buddy or pal – he’s looking for a wife. You may be a super-duper awesome business lady, but are you qualified to the fill the wifely position for which you’re applying? Don’t answer that, because you don’t get to make that decision – the hiring manager does.
I’ll differ with him on the best friend part and a few other areas where he might be slightly over the top in making his hilarious overall point. This is just a teaser, check out the whole post if it is up your alley.
Note: I plan on writing my own (serious) post on the topic of women finding a husband as soon as time permits.
It’s easy to please men, with minimal effort.
1.He’s hungry,cook him a meal.
2.If he’s not hungry,he wants a blowjob, give that to him.
Simple,isn’t it?
But the wimmins today think that’s too much of an effort,they will lay stiff as a board on their backs once a month tho.
That’s not enough anymore,not with the risk of the misandrist courts.
freebird, cooking is not that difficult. Many men cook for themselves just fine. There’s no theoretical reason why a man cannot cook his own omelet for breakfast, for example.
But that does lead to your second point….
So successful market research will include “what niches in the target market are unfilled”…
Determine what the men you find attractive want in a wife, then give it to them.
I think its a fair point that he should have specified for the entire duration of the marriage and not the assumed until the ring is on your finger and he can’t escape. The almost instant transformation of brides from wife material to warpig is notorious in Western culture.
OT: Take a look at this Dalrock.
http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2012/04/the-christian-divorce-rate-myth/
[D: Funny, I gave my own take on the same Glenn Stanton retread article over a year ago.]
Dalrock, I am amazed once again, how gullible people are. You demolished Stanton’s arguments and there was nothing more to say. Thank you for all you do because some of us guys cannot write eloquently as some of the commenters do here. Some of us merely lurk around here and learn.
Try offering him something he doesn’t have and is likely to value. I bet he’s not feminine, soft, sweet, caring, kind, gentle or maternal, and I’ll bet he values those traits and doesn’t see them as a weakness like you do for some reason.
This is complete golden truth. I’ve seen it noted several times and have experienced it as well. Women relate to men in terms of what they need and not what the other person needs (in other words, women are selfish). So what they offer is what they would want, not what a man would want.
Here it is in an even simpler way, women: If you want to be attractive to a man, be a value-add in his life. Don’t rearrange his life, don’t pre-empt his life, don’t try to fix him into your image. Do everything you can to improve his life and make his life as it is a joy. Be his cheerleader, be his supporter, be his companion. That means you can’t have it both like a man and like a woman. Being his competition (working), or any of those other things you think he would be interested in are meaningless.
Ironically, the very thing that so many woman are thinking is liberating them is turning them into something that isn’t woman, and isn’t attractive. So many of them are so self-centered that they will find spinsterhood amidst their slutdom and scowling anger. And it’s well deserved.
Yes, girls, being with a man should not be a pissing contest. You don’t have the equipment.
more like 5 easy pointers for running a divorce con. the last thing we should be doing is helping women figure out how to trick a guy into falling for the trap.
any woman can put on a show and pretend she is exactly what a man wants, until the wedding is over. after that, it doesn’t matter. if we can’t trust women to be civil, decent, and honest, then we shouldn’t have anything to do with them let alone risk half our possessions and 75% of our future earnings.
I have to become Cro-Magnon man just for this post. Quoting Dave Chapelle— “100 ways to please your man by– some lady. There ain’t no 100 things on that list. Let me tell you how to please your man. Suck his dick, play with his balls, fix him a sandwich, and don’t talk so much. Poetry. Too much overthinking causes the Decline of Civilization(tm)
Exactly, couldn’t have said it any better. The credibility of feminism and post liberal ‘conservatism’ and ‘Churchianity’ have been shot to hell with blogs such as this spilling the truth.
Thanks for the linkage and props, Dalrock. This one was fun to write.
@jso: Fret not, my son. Not one woman will read that post. Promise.
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The underlying danger running through all of this, is the uncomfortable truth that the only males fit for marriage in 21st century America ARE femenized.
Considering that most marriage-age women would rather ride the carousel than get married, I doubt this post by Mentu has a viable female audience.
Oh Prof Mentu, your promise has been broken. But shockingly, I agree with most of what you had to say. As a marketing major for my undergrad degree and an MBA I can honestly say your formula is solid and value-added offers are always a plus. The content of what the men are looking for sounds a bit crass, but given the intended audience I certainly understand. Your synopsis of the overarching problem is right on the money. My own 21 year experience with an abusive, beta-male who lacked ambition would provide more than adequate proof that you are correct. I applaud you for being brazen enough to say it and advise any other women reading it to put aside their initial feminist outrage and think about it. I am now addressing women specifically…
If you can do all the things you say you can, then why do you need a man? There are plenty out there that will satisfy your physical needs without being a burden on your wallet and you can certainly find a sperm donor should you want to have children. Just expect to bear the cost of raising said child by yourself. If you are truly honest with yourself, you will realize that you are looking for a man so that you don’t have to do these things any longer. If by chance you really are looking for a beta male so you can be the alpha, I’ll point you in the direction of my ex…but be warned, he hits and has entitlement issues.
As for me, I’m ready for the alpha male to take over and if all he wants is food, a blow job and a soft feminine body to come home to I’m your gal.
Oh Prof Mentu, your promise has been broken. But shockingly, I agree with most of what you had to say. As a marketing major for my undergrad degree and an MBA I can honestly say your formula is solid and value-added offers are always a plus. The content of what the men are looking for sounds a bit crass, but given the intended audience I certainly understand. Your synopsis of the overarching problem is right on the money. My own 21 year experience with an abusive, beta-male who lacked ambition would provide more than adequate proof that you are correct. I applaud you for being brazen enough to say it and advise any other women reading it to put aside their initial feminist outrage and think about it.
I am now addressing women specifically…
If you can do all the things you say you can, then why do you need a man? There are plenty out there that will satisfy your physical needs without being a burden on your wallet and you can certainly find a sperm donor should you want to have children. Just expect to bear the cost of raising said child by yourself. If you are truly honest with yourself, you will realize that you are looking for a man so that you don’t have to do these things any longer. If by chance you really are looking for a beta male so you can be the alpha, I’ll point you in the direction of my ex…but be warned, he hits and has entitlement issues.
As for me, I’m ready for the alpha male to take over and if all he wants is food, a blow job and a soft feminine body to come home to I’m your gal.
@sosweet
He also wants your 19 year old niece’s cell phone number
“My own 21 year experience with an abusive, beta-male who lacked ambition…As for me, I’m ready for the alpha male to take over and if all he wants is food, a blow job and a soft feminine body to come home to I’m your gal.
Soft leather is only desirable for furniture.
@Mule, my eldest niece is 9 and doesn’t own one yet but I understand your point. The alphas are otherwise occupied with the sweet young things. These are the pitfalls of not choosing wisely in one’s youth.
Pardon my curiosity, Sweetie, but why did you marry this man in the first place?
@canecaldo
Soft leather does make good furniture. Your assumption of leather however is incorrect so it might be best to avoid making assumptions about people you don’t know.
@David
He was the first BF and college sweetheart. I had no basis for comparison. Married right out of college and the abuse began 4 months after the wedding. I tried my best to please his narcissistic ass and finally gave up.
Sounds like a species of alpha.
I for one am shocked that sosweet2362 was attracted to a man with dark triad traits. How could this be?
@David
“Sounds like a species of alpha.”
Not unless there is a species that wants to be a kept man.
I think there probably is.
@Dalrock
I’m new here and have no idea what you mean by the dark triad traits…
@Sweet2362
Are you kidding? Best of all is the pimp, absorbing the resources of multiple highly attractive women while rendering little except abuse is considered the pinnacle of “alphaness”.
You are making the common mistake of failing to distinguish between masculine honor, which is how men keep score among themselves, and masculine appeal, which is how men attract women.
There is very little overlap between the two.
sosweet2362 – ”My own 21 year experience with an abusive, beta-male who lacked ambition…”
I think that you might be confusing a lack of ambition with beta-ness. Yes, many alpha’s are the (financially) ambitious sort, but such ambition, by it’s self, is NOT a reliable proxy for alpha vs. beta.
The typical “beta” is more-often-than-not a good provider type, who has solid ambition and is a hard worker – he just lacks the natural confidence and social dominance that actually mark an alpha.
To most of us who’ve tried to better understand and better define what serves to delineate between alpha and beta, what would tend to identify a man in a relationship with a woman (such as your ex was in with you) would be his tendency to wish to please his women. If he was the sort of guy who put pleasing you at the top of his list, then, yeah, he’s be considered pretty much beta, regardless of his relative level of personal ambition. ‘
But, I take it that your ex wasn’t too prone to care about pleasing you, and likely put his own interested first-and-foremost. This is more typical of an alpha mind-set. And, that he quickly became abusive would seem to be a dead give-away to his being the sort of alpha that is actually not that uncommon – the complete A-hole alpha. [As an aside, I’ll bet that he had another girlfriend either soon after your break-up, if not before?]
sosweet2362 – ”I’m new here and have no idea what you mean by the dark triad traits…”
Maybe sonaive2362 would be a better handle?
Dark triad
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Dark Triad is a group of three personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy, all of which are interpersonally aversive.[1][2][3] The Dark Triad refers to three theoretically distinct but empirically overlapping personality constructs.[4][5] The term reflects the perception that these three diagnostic categories, have at least some common underlying factors:[6][7]
• The narcissistic personality (in the clinical sense) is characterized by a grandiose self-view, a sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, and egotism. On some theories, such as Kohut, it is associated with protection of a radically weak, shamed, or damaged self.[8]
• The Machiavellian personality is characterized by manipulation and exploitation of others, with a cynical disregard for morality and a focus on self-interest and deception.[9]
• The psychopath, or antisocial personality, is characterized by impulsive thrill-seeking, and in its “primary” form by selfishness, callousness, lack of personal affect, superficial charm, and remorselessness.
All three characters involve a callous-manipulative interpersonal style,[10] and are considered aversive. Jakobwitz and Egan carried out a factor analysis and found agreeableness strongly dissociated with all dark triad personality types, but other factors (neuroticism, lack of conscientiousness) were associated only with some members of the triad.
What feminists don’t understand is that the provider head-of-house old school type was the conformist beta of his day. Being a good provider is beta. In most cases these men were obeying a script. That is why, as soon as the script changed, so did they.
I have noticed that some of the old counter-culture types never got that memo, and remain unreconstructed chauvinists. An interesting example was Norman Mailer, who hung on for ages. He died a pathetic mangina though. But these guys are natural alphas, which is why they were social mavericks in the first place.
A lazy irresponsible man who is self-centred and beats a woman is likely an alpha. (One of the things that keeps my wife sexually interested is my streak of cold narcissism, which mitigates my Christian breadwinner betaness somewhat).
@Mule and slwerner
Perhaps I am incorrect in the terminology…as I said to Dalrock, I am new here and am still in the learning curve.
I can say that the a-hole was more interested in the image he/we portrayed to the public than he was in pleasing or being nice to me or the children. He preferred to serve on myriad boards to promote his social stature instead of having a relationship with his kids. I do not know of any girlfriends past or present…he wants to get back together. NOT going to happen!
sosweet2362 , a suggestion for you.
Read first. Then think. Then ask questions.
Read, then post. That’s the order of events that makes a site, or in the old days a newsgroup, useful.
Yup, definitely sounds alpha to me. Based the ‘kept man’ comment and first post, it sounds like sweety was his meal ticket. She made the money, he reaped the rewards. Throw in a little pimp-hand. Sweety, nothing you’ve said about your ex sounds beta. He may have been beta in male-male relationships, but not his home life. Dark-triad, look it up.
Same ole story.
@Anonymous Reader – Duly noted 🙂
@David, slwerner & Mule – Perhaps email is a better way to ask/answer questions…
[D: email address redacted.]
Sosweet2362 – “Perhaps email is a better way to ask/answer”
posting your personal email is NEVER a good idea.
Hopefully Dalrock will take it down before any crazies see it.
Sweetie, dark triad refers to three personality traits that are often found together in a certain type of man who is commonly referred to as a jerk or A-hole, yet does quite well with the ladies. The traits are narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy.
It’s one of the frustrating realities of the world that women are so strongly attracted to DT jerks. Most men are not and do not want to be manipulative, selfish, and antisocial. But that seems to be the easiest way of getting a woman interested in you.
Yes, Sweetie, bad idea. You can serve as a case study. But let’s keep the discussion public.
@slwerner
“Maybe sonaive2362 would be a better handle?”
I guess you’re right
Soft leather does make good furniture. Your assumption of leather however is incorrect so it might be best to avoid making assumptions about people you don’t know.
Precious. I wasn’t talking about your skin.
@sosweet2362:
Welcome! Seriously, welcome around. But, some fair warnings: people will be honest here. Most of life you’ll never run into brutal honesty. Here, you will. It can be rough, but even the harshest around here aren’t really being nasty. Only time it’s ever really gotten truly nasty is when an idiot comes around and can’t figure out 1 + 1 = 2.
Some quick insight into what you’re about to discover:
You just admitted you put up with an abusive husband for 21 years. He didn’t “become Beta”, to your thinking, until the end. Whether you like it or not, you were still attracted to him and did what he needed, and stayed, for that 21 years. So there’s about 20 years of him keeping you there pretty easily, in an abusive situation. He was far and away a pure social Alpha. He was completely status conscious. He may or may not have cheated on you a few times during the relationship, that’s down to, likely, his social risk tolerances. (Around here, we’d probably say there’s a 75% chance there was at least 1 extramarital relationship)
“Alpha” and “Beta” are designations of standing in a social setting. Everyone has a little different take on how to use them or what they mean exactly. The cheat-sheet version for definitions:
Roissy/Heartiste style:
Alpha – Guy that gets women. Lesser to Greater levels, depending on personality/willingness to perform what’s needed to get the most women.
Beta – Guy that women don’t view as attractive. The concept of the “Greater Beta/Lesser Alpha” is a very long one, but they’re generally the best marriage partners, if a guy wants to go that way.
In this context, you DO NOT want to be a Beta as a man. You get eaten up in divorce court.
Athol Kay style:
Alpha traits – the traits that build sexual attraction. There are many but “social dominance” is the best way to describe it. It’s more of a 1-10 style ranking on each part of the trait.
Beta traits – the traits that build “comfort”. This is the “provider” traits that cause most guys the problems. Things like “being good with the kids” generally are this category. The more a guy has, the better a human being they normally are, but that doesn’t effect attraction in any way.
Two quick terms:
SMV – Sexual Market Value: 1-10 scale. This is, for the most part, how “hot” a person is to the opposite sex. This is culturally dependent, a bit. 10s are very rare. They are the sexiest women or the high powered, high money men.
MMV – Marriage Market Value: 1-10 scale, but not used as often. This is the value of a person for a relationship. SMV and MMV aren’t really related. A MMV 10 for a woman is likely a 6 SMV that’s a super good cook, loves sex and treats her man real nice. (Oh, and she’ll sign away any risks to a man’s livelihood in a prenup) These women are also known as Unicorns, these days.
That should get you started. Dalrock, Danny504, Bb, Privateman and The Badger Hut are good places to get up to speed. Everyone has a little different take on matters, but that’s more perspective difference than a true disagreement about the mechanics. There’s quite an argument about the moral implications of the heavy use of Alpha traits, but not on the mechanics of how they work. We’ve got empirical evidence on those bits.
nothing you’ve said about your ex sounds beta. He may have been beta in male-male relationships, but not his home life.
You know, this reminds me of a rhyme.
Red next to black, he’s a friend of Jack. Red next to yellow, you’re a dead fellow.
It’s about snakes. The kind that slither in the grass and eat mice. The Coral snake is quite venomous and its bite can kill you. The Scarlet snake is harmless. Both have red and yellow stripes around their bodies, but on the Coral snake, the red bands are next to the yellow bands (red next to yellow, you’re a dead fellow). The Scarlet snake has black bands between the red and yellow bands (red next to black, he’s a friend of Jack. Well, not me personally but…).
The Coral snake evolved the markings to warn off predators – danger, I can kill you with a single bite. The Scarlet snake (and several others) evolved similar markings to scare off predators who will mistake it for a posionous snake (er, venomous to be precise). They’re free-riders, they don’t have to pay the metabolic price of generating and storing venom, but they get the protection of being thought dangerous. It’s called Batesian Mimicry, and it’s pretty common in nature. It’s one type of mimicry and there are many others. Nature is full of animals evolving to take advantage by mimicing the attributes of another animal without expending the energy necessary to actually have those attributes.
And so we have human females, pre-disposed to be attracted to men who are socially dominant and can achieve high rank among their fellow men. But social dominance is a costly – and frankly dangerous – game. It involves competition with other men who want very much to win, and who are perfectly capable of bashing your skull in if needed. Civilization reduces the skull-bashing somewhat, but the game of being an alpha in the male-male world is still costly, difficult, and dangerous. They payoff is lots of attention from the most desirable females.
Enter the mimic-alpha, such as Sweeties ex. Rather than expend the energy and take the changes necessary to be a successful alpha in the male world, the mimic-alpha has evolved traits that – in the perception of women – mimic the traits of true alpha men. That perception part is important, because women there are enough subtle differences in brain wiring that it takes careful study for a woman to really understand how men relate to one another. It’s not something that comes naturally to her. The mimic exploits this by presenting some of the secondary traits women are most likely to notice in true alphas.
A true alpha is a busy guy – by virtue of his ability his skills are in high demand. Social dominance requires significant attention to relationships and the ability for the boss to make his underlings better off, so the boss has to make sure there’s plenty to go around for everyone or he’ll have a mutiny on his hands. All that takes work, and means that the alpha is usually pretty tired by the time he gets home and really just wants to relax. He doesn’t want to do housework. He’s worn out from communicating all day with his team and negotiating with his rivals, so he really doesn’t want to chit chat about trivial stuff. He’s got a dozen long-term problems weighing on his mind and he spends a good deal of his “free” time thinking through possible solutions, so he’s often remote and distracted around his family. He’s got a bazillion responsibilities and often it takes everything he’s got to keep things from falling apart, so he’s often under a lot of stress. He learns to swallow it so that he doesn’t accidentally blow up at an inopportune time in front of a rival or his own followers and screw up something. But occassionally he needs to release that stress and if his wife mouths off to him, he might unload on her. The ability to physically intimidate other men is a huge boost to true alpha social status. Leadership in the male world implies the ability to get other people to do what you want them to do, which can seem quite manipulative.
So, the mimic-alpha shows the domestic manifestations of those true alpha traits. He doesn’t have much time for domestic duties. He’s not very interested in petty gossip. He’s distracted, inattentive and remote. He’s manipulative. He seems to be physically intimidating, but it’s much easier for a man to be physically intimidating with a 5’6 120 lb woman than with a 6’2 210 lb man. And a woman who hasn’t learned better percieves the guy as a socially dominant alpha and falls for him.
Then years later, maybe she wises up and insists he’s a beta. Well, no, he’s not a beta. Beta guys are a lot better than he is. He’s a mimic-alpha. He mimics the traits women really want in a man and suckers them in with false advertising.
I think the mimic-alpha has always and will always be with us, but their numbers are less when we’re not quite so civilized, since true alphas will generally kill the mimics when able to.
God, someone should turn “Looking Glass” comment into the “manosphere cheat sheet”. I need a link to send it to some people, along with some manosphere links.
@Looking Glass: Preach!
Dalrock, you might find this interesting
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml
“The same study said that only 63% of American children grow up with both biological parents — the lowest figure in the Western world.”
@Professor Mentu: thanks
@Jack Amok: Great post, sir. Oddly enough, you also got at what true business is like. It’s mostly people work with 1-2 good problem solving skills. It’s brutal work, but a lot of it isn’t as hard as people think. But very few are actually capable of it.
The Mimic-Alpha. That’s a great term. And explains most of the guys who couldn’t hold a job that far too many women will try to “fix”. Yeah, in old times, we’d have killed them. They’re pretty worthless to a society.
‘Natch: Don’t turn dating into Work 2.
Wow, woman marries as a virgin and still gets made fun of. Yeah, clearly the goal is to shame ‘sluts’, because a virgin marrying her first boyfriend is so skanky.
A Lady – “Wow, woman marries as a virgin and still gets made fun of. Yeah, clearly the goal is to shame ‘sluts’, because a virgin marrying her first boyfriend is so skanky.”
What are you referring to? Are you talking about so supposed treatment of sosweet2362?
If so, maybe you should re-read whatever it was, where ever it was that makes you think someone here is making fun of her for marrying as a virgin (or, at least make some citation to it).
Your comment, standing alone as you’ve posted it, seems to make no sense.
It’s the deployment of the generalised shame bomb. Used when a woman reads or hears something that offends her senses so greatly that she has no other option but to deploy a weapon of mass shame. Ignore it until such a time that they either respond rationally, after calming down, or back away slowly until you’re out of shame range.
What mockery? What explicit claim or retort regarding virginity? The hilarity (and I’d say it’s more shake-the-head chuckle than anything nasty) is her saying she wants an alpha and will do anything for an alpha… when she didn’t realize that’s what she’s put up with for 21 years and now wants to reject.
Dalrock,
I recently found your site via a discussion on another, Taken in Hand (TiH).
My eye was immediately caught by the statement at the top of your blog and struck a cord with me.
“Thoughts from a happily married father on a post feminist world.”
I never intended to post anything here, just meant to enjoy lurking about and learning. But it was what you said at the end of this post, that you planned on writing your own serious post on the topic of women finding a husband as soon as time permits, that had me sitting down to my key board.
As a mother of a twenty-something college student who is looking for the same type of traditional relationship that her parents have. I want to encourage you to write the article as you seem to have a commonsensical understanding of what young people are facing with today’s complex dating rituals (for lack of a better term.) Regardless of some of the vitriol I read on this and other sites, yes I did read Mentu post, all of it! I believe most young men and women are searching for sage advice about how to go about finding the right person. From what I’ve read of your writing I think you are the right person to pen this. It’s time for a course correction in the social strata but that can only be done without degrading one side or the other, which I fear will happen. Human nature does tend to run to extreams.
Oh, and before I go, gentlemen, ther are quit a few “greater beta’s and nascent alpha females” out there who are looking to do the right thing. They just don’t suffer fools well and they don’t play games. And by fools I mean the guys who could be great if they weren’t so blinded by being focused only on getting a little piece of … well you know what I mean.
[D: Welcome. Perhaps we should shorten your handle to IRSA? No need for a real name, but a consistent easy to type handle is helpful in the discussion. As to your request, by a stroke of luck I happen to have just published. I look forward to your thoughts on it.]
Oh, 1 addendum I really should have been sure to put in:
“Hamster”/”Her hamster is running”: It’s a short form of the concept of the “Rationalization Hamster”. That’s the ability, possessed by humans, to Rationalize their actions. Or to say to yourself “I didn’t do anything wrong here/this is the right decision” when, to everyone else, you completely screwed up. It’s learned from a young age, the stereotypical being the child, when asked if they broke something (which they oblivious did), who responds with “I don’t know”.
The Hamster is dangerous because women will rationalize anything that makes them “feel good”. Right up to murdering a husband in his sleep because they claim he was abusive. (With no proof)
Sub-point:
While Men do possess the ability, it will only rarely comes up. The specific circumstances are about either Sex (“There’s nothing wrong with nailing that chick, I wrapped it up; now I’m running from a posse out to kill me”) or purchases with lethal potential (guns, cars, motorcycles or gadgets). The reason it’s more rare for Men is due to the simple fact that other guys won’t accept your rationalizations. Especially not when you just insulted them and they’re going to take out the insult in your hide. This is also known as “market forces in action”.
Women, however, will use the hamster quite often. This is due in most part to women desiring “comfort” stability (stable jobs/incomes) and dynamic social lives (there’s no common “Drama King” phrase for a reason). Where results are harder to measure, the ability to rationalize has increasing effect. The Hamster places emotions over any sort of actual “reasoning”. It it used to provide self-atonement for actions without having to face the real or moral consequences for those actions. (It’s pure Narcissism)
The most commonly seen place for the Hamster is any woman discussing the realities of their dating/sexual/relationship prospects. Female physical beauty peaks at 24-25 and their fertility is considered gone by age 35. Technology has only barely changed the fertility rate post-35. (It won’t be able to change it much further) These are hard truths, but there exists an entire industry that will hide that, as they can make a lot of money off the lie.
So, that’s the Hamster in a nutshell. You can, at times, actually see the wheels spinning in a woman’s head, when presented with a concept that’s blatantly obvious (the crack addict isn’t a good guy to sleep with) and her attempting to rationalize away her terrible mistake(s). The unintended comedy is hilarious.
Wow, woman marries as a virgin and still gets made fun of. Yeah, clearly the goal is to shame ‘sluts’, because a virgin marrying her first boyfriend is so skanky.
Let’s take a look at the replay…
Ok, you can see right here: A woman comes into a room, makes the approach, and–addressing the most alpha player in the room–says, “I have exhibited lousy in men, but If you’ll support me I’ll suck your cock!”
Oh my! She certainly tried to lay a lick on him, Bob.
I don’t know, Steve, It looked like a legitimate hit to me.
Now, this is a bad angle, and the action is moving pretty fast, but I saw no claim of virginity in that first view. Let’s check again…Nope; the other player clearly put one knee down in college, but who knows what happened in that pile?
@Looking Glass – thank you for the primer, it is very helpful. I am a big fan of brutal honesty – I can take it. What I can’t take any longer are lying, manipulative, controlling jerks with a penchant for taking their frustrations out on their “loved ones.” And since I’m now a case study (also fine with this) some addt’l background is in order.
Yes, I remained in an abusive marriage for 21 years. Some of the reasoning behind this being, that 1) I grew up in an abusive household so this behavior was a norm in my life; 2) I also grew up as a “good Christian girl” and was taught that the only legitimate reason for divorce was adultery. For way too many years I was berated and made to believe that I was lacking in many ways and that this was the cause of the deplorable treatment I received. If it weren’t for him I would be in a gutter somewhere. When you’ve heard the same mantra for so long you begin to believe it, no matter how highly educated you are. Especially when there are people who observe that something is not quite right but do not intervene. The shame associated with this results in a willingness to do ANYTHING to prevent people from finding out. It wasn’t until I had the good fortune to get laid off and returned to school to study health care that I recognized an opportunity to change my circumstances and prevent my children from growing up thinking that this life was normal or acceptable. That was 3 years ago – when I quit trying to make him happy. Things escalated very quickly once I was no longer interested in making him happy. My goal was to get the addt’l education I needed and have a career in health care so I could support my children on my own. In June of last year the violence could no longer be ignored as the oldest child was trying to intervene. We left 3 days later and I consider that date as the official end of my marriage. Many things have transpired since then and the result is a divided household; some children with him and some with me. I will not go back “for the sake of the children” as he desperately pleads. I am no longer the girl he married and abused for so long. I am independent (not taking any support from him), I am happy, and hopefully soon will be finally free from that marriage – at least legally. I will still have to deal with the jerk since we have children together which I’m sure lowers my MMV. As for SMV, no idea since it is essentially subjective and self ranking would be inaccurate anyway.
@Jack – you very accurately described the ex….sounds like a mimic alpha; not a beta as I first thought.
@canecaldo – my naivete leaves me at a loss in knowing what you are referring to then. Since I’m a fan of brutal honesty, just give it to me straight. After hiding behind shame for so much of my life and prolonging the situation by not telling anyone, my life is now an open book. Any questions germane to the discussion will happily be answered.
OFF-TOPIC:
Look at this — indian asshole training: http://www.missmalini.com/2012/03/18/guest-blogger-durjoy-datta-8-steps-to-becoming-a-bad-boy/
sosweet2362
Quick question, do you agree with ‘no fault’ divorce?
@ Everyone – I believe A Lady’s comments were intended as a post for the “Slut” thread
@ Alexander – in no way did I say I will do anything to be with an alpha…what I said is that if what Prof Mentu says is correct and that all a man wants is to be fed, a bj and a soft body, then that is what women should provide – myself included. Apparently I have inaccurately used the terms alpha and beta males and have since been corrected. What I am rejecting after 21 years however is an abusive male regardless of whatever label is placed on him.
@feministhater – if by no-fault you mean uncontested or cooperative divorce in which the parties work toward an agreement without intervention of the court, then yes, I agree. Ideally the parties can reach an agreement which will simply be submitted to the court for signature.
@sosweet2362:
As I said, welcome. Decently rough story. Fair warning, there’s some more brutal ones around here. I need to go drop my nose into a textbook for a few hours for some work, but a few thoughts. Some related to the SMV/MMV stuff, some not.
-) Your kids are going to have it brutal. Even in the “have to divorce to physically save the kids”, the divorce is brutal on them. There is 0 way around this. Amputating an arm to save your life is a correct decision. Doesn’t mean it isn’t going to cost you very dearly.
-) You and your children have a brutal blind spot in your understanding/selection of men. Your sons will mimic their father, at least in degree (even if they’re never physically abusive); your daughters will be attracted to men like their father. Because you made the same sets of choices, you also have this blind spot. I don’t think anyone has come up with a great way of really “undoing” that problem. Deep & honest self study is what would end up being needed. But you’ll need a better understanding of the way these sorts of things operate. Just going with “the opposite” isn’t going to work too well, either.
-) The quickest way to understanding the basics of the operation of the SMV/relationship stuff is probably Deti’s advice (over at Danny’s site): http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com/detinennui32s-advice/
-) You’re not really “happy”. You’re in a better place, temporarily. I don’t have an age range on your children, but you’re about to find out the really hard way why 2-parent homes should always be the preference. The lack of a second person is going to be completely apparent in a few months. This isn’t saying your divorce wasn’t justified. But the choice comes with severe consequences. You pay them gladly, but you will be paying them.
-) MMV at your age (at least 43) is going to be pretty low. PrivateMan probably has a better handle on that subject & age range that most of us here: http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/
-) SMV is almost ALWAYS overvalued by women. There’s a few structural reasons, aside from just self-delusion. But a good rule of Thumb: if your face is on you and looking forward, with somewhat straight teeth and a BMI of 23, you should be a 5. (So roughly 126 pounds for a 5’2″ female) The older you get, if you keep your weight down, your actual relative rank (to age range) increases, while “total” goes down.
-) Your relationship options will be divorced and widowed men in their 45-55 range. But you’ll need to give yourself a while. The kids are going to be a complete an utter mess and for a long while. “Counseling” can help… some of them. But don’t expect paying someone money will just help.
-) You very likely have little ability to actually trust people. And you probably wouldn’t know that. You may have to completely relearn the concept. I don’t envy you on this point.
-) Your social circle is, likely, now your enemy. DO NOT trust any of the women that wouldn’t take a bullet for you. They will now view you as a threat to their homes OR your a risk to push them into a divorce. You also have the unfortunate possibility of causing other women to get divorces, even if not intentional. https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/06/05/the-contagious-nature-of-divorce/
-) If you have bitterness and rage issues, find an outlet for it. You have to be the structural support in your family, now. And you’re going to find out why that’s a really, really rough place to be, even if you’ve likely been doing most of the job already.
-) Your eldest, likely a son, would have eventually gotten into a full fight with your ex-husband. That could have easily gotten one or both in prison/dead. That’s a good sign for their own future relationships, but that child will carry a lot of shame for a long while. His protector instincts were violated pretty badly.
-) A few of us around here are fitness nuts, if you need actual, real advice on what to do about fitness/diet/losing weight. It’s both quite complicated and yet fairly easy once you get it explained.
-) Women, by net, are actually more likely to be physically abusive than men. (No joke, it’s just the strength difference that people notice. Women aren’t physical threats without weapons or training, to an “average” man. Rage doesn’t make up for that type of strength difference.) So your son(s) will need to learn to never let any girl hit them. Even the “hit on the shoulder” stuff. He will, at a non-conscious level, find those types of girls. If you want stable grandchildren, it’s something important to drive home.
-) You apparently haven’t raped your ex-husband in the divorce. That’s really, really rare. There’s a bunch of posters on this forum that would have appreciated that.
-) Education is not perception or intelligence or fortitude. It’s simply a piece of paper that we hope means you have a specific skill set. The more credentials a person has, generally, the realistically greater stupidity they will display. A degree does not confer Wisdom, which is always the most important trait in life.
-) I was trying to come up with specific posts to link to, but here’s two links:
http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/
http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/
-) Athol Kay’s work probably isn’t the best help to you at the moment. That’s more “saving your marriage”/”making it work”. Yours is dead and was fundamentally broken anyway. Not sure that would help much. But you probably eventually want to check his work out.
On “No Fault divorce”, that’s really not what he means. Though we’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on the subject for a bit. It’s a really sore spot because the basic family court pretty much denies men their basic rights and robes them of their property and rights, without any recourse. If you stick around long enough, you’ll get a real insight into how bad the situation truly is for a lot of guys. Quite a few have had ex-wives end up “not happy” and, for all intents and purposes, ruined the perfectly good lives of them and their children.
As I said in my previous post, you appear to not have raped your husband in the divorce. You were extremely capable of it. Plus you could have gotten an older Fault-based divorce. Your situation is pretty much unique, so you won’t have a great frame of reference to the true nature of the family court system in this country.
Sweetie, you claim that you thought being smacked around was OK. In America, in modern times, for twenty years with neverending public campaigns raising awareness of domestic violence? And women’s shelters?
@Looking Glass – I moved out of the family home (it was his grandparents before we bought it together) because it means more to him than to me. I now have a condo with a 24 hr locked gate and an alarm system. Two of our 5 children live with me in the condo. The other 3 live with him. Our households are only 2 miles apart so that the children are able to see each other easily and frequently. It has never been my intent to “rape” my husband in a divorce. I have managed in under a year to become financially self sufficient although I did have to incur new debt to do it. In the long run, it is worth it to me because I believe the best thing I can do for my children is to ensure that they have a happy, healthy and safe mom and can grow up without perpetuating the cycle of abuse.
No fault divorce means a wife can go to a lawyer, get divorce papers drawn up, get them served to her husband; and then appear in court with nothing other than saying that she has ‘irreconcilable differences’ and thus requires custody of their children, 50 % of her husband’s estate, child support and spousal support and that she is entitled to put her husband behind bars if he cannot support his ex in the life she has become accustomed to before deciding she was bored or unhaaapppppy. It means she can get empathy from a judge simply by stating she was abused or neglected without having to actually ‘prove’ these statements with facts and evidence before the judge.
Simple terms, no fault means you can get a divorce WITHOUT having to provide proof of fault on your husband’s part. A fault divorce system means you cannot get a divorce UNLESS you prove fault on your husband’s part, whether it be proof of infidelity, abuse or racking up debt via gambling. In that old system, you would not achieve divorce via courts without the proof. And the proof for abuse was long-term, constant abuse, not merely a ‘he didn’t do what I told him’ or ‘ he slapped me’ or he talked back’. No, it was real, definitive physical abuse. Not the namby bamby ’emotional abuse’ crap that counts as ‘abuse’ today.
So… do you agree with a ‘fault’ divorce system or a ‘no fault’ divorce system. Bearing in mind that if your story is true, that you would be entitled to claim divorce because you would be able to prove your husband physically abused you, right?
@sosweet2362
doesnt really require further discussion, i do try and inform my friends who are 26-29 demographic group of the risks but there clearly they are to plugged into the system to remove the indoctrinated mental schema. I do try and will continue to do so but am met with great opposition
@David – when the physical abuse cycle initially runs 12-14 months and the main/constant forms of abuse are verbal and emotional it is very easy to rationalize (see Looking Glass’s previous comment about hampsters) and remain in a violent situation. Especially if you buy the bogus crap the abuser tells you. Over time though the cycle becomes shorter and the instances of physical abuse become more frequent and severe because the abuser realizes that he/she is getting away with it and they don’t become more confident that you won’t leave. For me, the cycle dwindled to 6 months before I left, and then 5 weeks after separating and joint counseling, he hit me again. Done and done!
I am sorry he hit you, Sweetie. Hamster not hampster.
@feministhater – I have a police report that documents his admission of guilt and his voluntary entry into a batterers intervention program to serve as all the proof I need. However I still think it is in everyone’s best interest (most especially the children’s) that we iron it all out without the intervention of the courts. As I said in a previous post, I don’t want the house nor do I want him to have to sell the house. I think all the children are better served by having the only home they’ve ever known belong to their dad. I will not render an opinion on no fault divorce in general since it does not pertain to me. However I can certainly see the aggregious results that can come from the dishonesty and lack of character on the part of the party who files in that manner.
@sosweet2362
That’s a very strong hamster operating right there to correlate Beta males with dominance, subjugation and mentally abusive behaviour.
There should be a post on how Betas are always the scapegoat. As if it wasn’t enough that women ignore unconfident men, they want to blame them for their miserable decisions.
@freemeofindoctrination – that is awful. I would never use divorce as a means for revenge or to try to financially ruin my ex. I have not asked for any support b/c I know he is barely able to cover the mortgage and household expenses. He is taking $ out of his retirement acct to cover his bills. I’m working 60 hrs a week to cover my own.
Why not render an opinion? Do you only have opinions on things that happen directly to you? It’s always noted that women have some inability to engage in a debate that doesn’t directly involve impacting their lives in the short-term. Every debate will no doubt have something to do with your personal life.
Anyway, the point of asking was not to determine if you had to prove your husband’s abuse to get your divorce; but more along the lines of if you think a person who wants to divorce should honour their commitments and continue the marriage or be shunned; unless or until they can prove proper fault on the behalf of their partner and gain divorce?
Here’s another biggy. Do you believe people should be allowed to remarry after divorce or do you, like me, think people who get divorced had their chance but they mucked up big time and shouldn’t be allowed to try again?
This ongoing debate does bring up a cogent point … there are such things as non-frivolous divorces, much as many of us don’t want to admit it. I remember someone calling it the 3 A’s: abuse, addiction and affairs; and I believe that any divorce that doesn’t feature one of these factors prominently is in all likelihood a frivolous divorce. On the other side of that, the question is to what degree should a victim of either sex have to put up with one or more of the 3 A’s in their spouse before deciding to call it quits? This question really goes back to one that should have been asked before the marriage: how much vetting was done to make sure that their spouse didn’t exhibit traces of these things before the marriage? I grant that many spouses don’t show their true colours until well after the rings have been exchanged, but I still think it’s a fair question.
“That’s a very strong hamster operating right there to correlate Beta males with dominance, subjugation and mentally abusive behaviour.
There should be a post on how Betas are always the scapegoat. As if it wasn’t enough that women ignore unconfident men, they want to blame them for their miserable decisions.”
@elemental – in no way am I implying that all Beta males have dominance, subjugation and abusive tendencies. I was describing my ex, not generalizing about Betas. Sorry for any confusion on that.
“Anyway, the point of asking was not to determine if you had to prove your husband’s abuse to get your divorce; but more along the lines of if you think a person who wants to divorce should honour their commitments and continue the marriage or be shunned; unless or until they can prove proper fault on the behalf of their partner and gain divorce?
Here’s another biggy. Do you believe people should be allowed to remarry after divorce or do you, like me, think people who get divorced had their chance but they mucked up big time and shouldn’t be allowed to try again?”
@feministhater – I believe that all married couples should try to honor their commitments. I did so for 21 years – no one can say I didn’t try to stick it out. If they are alleging abuse, infidelity or some other reason for the breakup, they should have to prove their allegations and file with “fault”. I believe that the attorneys advise their clients to do whatever is going to bring in the most money for their clients regardless of whether it is right or wrong – rather simply based on whether it is possible to get more. I think that practice is despicable. I think your second question above is rather jaded. it is reminiscent of the question of whether a criminal can be rehabilitated or not. I’m guessing that you don’t think they can. In answer to that question, yes I think that people who are divorced should be allowed to remarry.
@RandomA – the vetting process was 4 years long and there was no cohabitation.
The length of the vetting period is not nearly as important as the quality of the vetting done. Sad to say many did not do a good job there. Myself included.
“Your kids are going to have it brutal. Even in the “have to divorce to physically save the kids”, the divorce is brutal on them. There is 0 way around this. Amputating an arm to save your life is a correct decision. Doesn’t mean it isn’t going to cost you very dearly.”
-> Cannot emphasize this enough.
Even though in my case the target of the worst of my ex-wife’s abuse, including all the physical abuse, was my daughter, it is my daughter who has severe attachement issues to my ex, who wanted to see her, etc. My son never cared for her, not even as a baby, although it will probably bother him more at some point,
@Paul:
The attachment issue is attempting to force them to “love you”. It’s a brutal thing a person can do to another. You’re 1-sided bonded, and in a child’s case, not by choice. It’s one of the hardest things for anyone to work through.
Sweety
No, you did not think being smacked around was OK. Sorry, I know the code. Plus, the manner in which you rush to emphasize the “emotional and verbal” abuse is further code. I also note that women have trouble not talking about personal experience, rarely discussing anything in impersonal abstract terms. Im surprised that you do not have a powerful opinion about no fault divorce based on your friend, sister, cousin, or neighbor….rendering a comment like “Women do not divorce for small reasons, my sister filed one and she had good reasons”
Anyway, great post
This awareness raising and recruitment for abuse needs to be called out and stopped. i cannot stand reading it when some women starts telling about her marriage and others rush to say “oh honey dont you realize you are being abused?” Well, clearly she realizes something wrong is happening and is seeking some advice, why must the advice be recruitment into the abuse victims guild?
Frankly, though there is likely verbal and emotional abuse, its so rare as to not be needed in a topic, because it would have to be really psycho stuff. What women are referring to as verbal and emotional abuse is when they lose an argument that involved shouting
@empathologicalism
Not sure what you mean by “the code”, but the comment “women do not divorce for small reasons, my sister filed one and she had good reasons” was not mine. My siblings are all happily married and divorce free as are all but 1 of my first cousins. My family values commitment and honoring one’s word. As such, I learned a long time ago to avoid friendships with married women who weren’t happy and women who were divorced. Being around jaded people makes one more likely to become jaded as well. The bulk of my acquaintances centered around church and children’s activities. Since the children were in private school at our curch, my circle of friends shared similar values.
Most of the verbal and emotional abuse didn’t even involve shouting so your premise would be incorrect. Constant put downs in front of the children and privately were more the norm. That being said, I realize that you are simply generalizing and I have no doubt that what you are referring to does actually happen – just not in my case.
@
sosweet2362 says:
April 28, 2012 at 10:08 am
@empathologicalism
I was on a Domestic call last night, and cupcake, the soon-to-be-ex, was claiming “abuse” by hubby…his BIG offense…he needed work clothes that were still at the marital house, which he is currently barred from, and “they” agreed on a time for this transfer, BUT her new sperm donor stopped by for a quickie, so cupcake wouldn’t answer the phone or answer the door. Hubgy saw them peek out the window, so he kept hitting redial. Cupcake wanted him arrested for telephone harassment and stalking etc (her lawyer told her all the things to accuse him of).
Cupcake bagged the requested clothes and tossed them out of the house onto the front lawn, this in front of the weeping kids (5-7), who wanted to say hello to daddy. Sperm donor was talking smack over cupcake’s shoulder, in front of us, the cops (brave stud he is). When fit-to-be-tied hubby leaves, cupcake wants to give me all the detail of hubby’s history of “scary abuse”.
(Following her to work, looking at her cell phone history, parking in front of the house to see who her new boyfriend is)…she is a pathetic cougar, banging the lawn boy, among others. I asked if “they” are still married…”technically yes”…madam, a husband attempting to satisfy his curiosity about a cheating wife is not abuse…
Abuse is an abused word.
@Buck – I would agree with you that cupcake was completely wrong in claiming abuse on your call last night. I will even go one further and agree with you that abuse is an abused and overused word. It doesn’t change the fact that there are still legitimate cases of abuse out there. I’m sure you’ve seen plenty of those as well. Working in a hospital, I see a lot too. I had a patient one day this week that would begin shaking from head to toe the very moment her husband stepped into the room. Her eyes got wide with fear and she took on that “deer in the headlights” look. Her body language alone spoke volumes. As soon as he was gone, her shaking stopped and her affect returned to normal. Maybe she will talk to a social worker about it, maybe she won’t.
Sounds like cupcake is a real piece of work; I feel sorry for the kids.
For the record, I remained faithful to my abusive husband long past the point when I left. Furthermore, I have not and will not introduce anyone to my children until/unless it becomes a serious relationship. I do not speak disrespectfully of their father to them or around them. As a matter of fact, I try really hard not to disrespect him to people we know because to do so causes them to look at and treat my children differently, and it makes my healing harder and longer. When asked, I answer questions directly and without sugar coating them. I’m trying my best to take the high road through it all.
Miss Mentu. Can’t wait to head up to his neck of the woods and hang out.
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