We need a stronger opponent to argue with.
Poking holes in Susan Walsh’s fallacies is like beating up your little red-headed cousin.
–Greenlander
Greenlander has an excellent point. The one thing the manosphere is sorely lacking is an intelligent adversary. As it stands, we perpetually appear to be knocking down straw men because the arguments we refute are all child’s play. Normally one would be tempted to assume that we are simply ignoring the thoughtful critics and pouncing on the inept ones. But if this is the case, whom are we ignoring?
The quality of our opponents is so low, when the SPLC declared the manosphere a group of thought criminals they were forced to list manboobz as the intellectual counterpart to us. I can only imagine the SPLC conversation:
SPLCer1: Seriously? That is who we are going to list as the counterpoint to the manosphere? I don’t use the word mangina, but come on, this guy is a mangina! Are you sure the manosphere didn’t make him up just to make us look like fools?
SPLCer2: I know. But who else are we going to point to? He’s all we’ve got!
However the actual conversation went, the SPLC ended up holding their nose and listing manboobz in their official denounciation of the manosphere:
The so-called “manosphere” is peopled with hundreds of websites, blogs and forums dedicated to savaging feminists in particular and women, very typically American women, in general. Although some of the sites make an attempt at civility and try to back their arguments with facts, they are almost all thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express. What follows are brief descriptions of a dozen of these sites. Another resource is the Man Boobz website (manboobz.com), a humorous pro-feminist blog (its tagline is “Misogyny: I Mock It”) that keeps a close eye on these and many other woman-hating sites.
True to form, manboobz rose to the occasion with a new post titled: Men’s Rights Activists, or Kitten Haters? You decide. Don’t take my word for it, click on the link and see for yourself.
But things may be looking up. A feminist calling herself jaimerapp on youtube has created a video to announce that she knows how to use the internet. This isn’t much, but it is at least promising. Sooner or later a feminist who knows how to use the internet is bound to make a point, even if only by accident. Until then, we can only hope. Godspeed jaimerapp.
H/T U Man
I dont see adversaries, just morons stuck in one or more of these http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
Like the video, they give airtime to the MRA’s and then have a one liner at the end! Another attempt that will probably backfire and bring more people to the MRA sites as a consequence. Really ain’t bad at all.
Oh and DALROCK at 3:05!
This is a very recent interesting spoof of Senor Manboobz:
You should really be more careful about mocking these opponents. This one has a really big brain. Read the description of the video:
This was the project for a graduate level class. I’m shaking in my boots waiting for her to post her term paper to scribd.
People in power don’t have to do the hard work of arguing against the opposition with clear griund rules. Therefor feminists don’t argue with MRAs on the internet or any other kind of public forum. They use media and political channels where they don’t have to fear any opposition. We only meet powerless and marginal feminists. The feminists with power stay away from actually debating with the opposition.
Feminists can only lose by debating. Therefor their prefered option is stopping the opposition from being heard or just avoiding debate.
I suspect the reason why the Manosphere sorely lacks an intelligent adversary is because the Manosphere is right. It will never have intellectually strong opponents because its arguments cannot be intelligently refuted.
Somebody wrote that men try to win the argument to win the crowd, whereas women try to win the crowd to win the argument. Feminists have no chance of winning the crowd here, so they stay where they already have the crowd and where arguments don’t matter.
The argument is not fought with logic.
It takes effort to think logically. The fathers of modern culture were able to brainwash an entire generation without using logic at all. Buy this, buy that, it will make you feel good. If your point is not logical, sidestep it. Use emotion. Use slick advertising techniques. Write a catchy jingle, “these boots are made for walking,” and “I am woman, hear me roar.”
You are not arguing with a man. You are critiquing a culture that cares not about reason.
If someone is trying to use reason to convince an enemy he is wrong, the arguer is deluded. That is not how the enemies have absolute control of culture, they never engaged in argument. That is not how to fight them.
Feminists have never debated. Their tactics either use shaming or cowering. If you’re winning the debate, they will cower and call you mean. If you try and debate with logic and a level temperament, without being ‘mean,’ they will belittle you, shame you and then get other men to throw rocks at you.
The more the economies heat up, the more the truth starts to escape. They can’t stop it anymore. It’s pretty much damage control from now on. And of course, if you want damage control to work you need men to do the heavy lifting. The decline is sure going to be fun!
I’m sure Sarahj will be fine though, surrounded by her female cohorts busily going about their lives without the stupid, caveman to hamstring them.
That video (in OP) is an amazing piece of work. Only someone so indoctrinated in feminism and, yes, misandry, would piece those items together and think it discredits MRAs. To her mind, what is being said is shocking and subversive and upsets “all the people she knows.” Hey, on the plus side, I spotted some more sites to check out. Thanks, babe.
I’m also pretty sure that when guys piped in with some of those tweets or articles (I Killed Feminism..), they were an example of crude humor.
How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
THAT’S NOT FUNNY!!!!
Men reason, women emote, generally speaking. Reasoning very rarely provides women with the sort of emotional stimulation they crave, one reason why a quick emotional hit from an “I am woman” is more effective than a well thought out argument. The hamster needs adrenaline rushes, not boring explanations.
They are intimidated by your collective intelligence and they know they wouldn’t stand a chance in a debate.
When the adversaries come out, it won’t be to argue. Truth is not their objective, but dominance.
Donkey has a point. In order to get the womyn to clue in, you have to speak their language.
Tug on heartstrings and tingles. Make emotional plays. Yeah, I know its gross and makes us feel dirty to do it, but just like with Game- we can’t present reason and logic to get the response we want. Women are naturally contradictory and emotional. We have to persuade them by attaching good feelings to our theory and attract them to it. Beat them at their own game.
It may be sinister, it may be Machiavellian, but we are MEN, and we do what we must.
It’s hard to be persuasive and gentle, though, when you see how foolish many of them are (and deserving of rebuke) and also when you see how much damage they are doing.
I tend to think that they may only respond to staunch correction, rather than persuasion, but we won’t be able to administer that properly until the social contract breaks… so if we don’t solve it before then, we will have a chance after.
If you want a clue as to why you don’t read too many well-thought counterarguments from the feminist side, all you need to do is look at how this video was formatted. It’s almost straight out of 1984 in its approach to providing counters to what her cherry-picked MRM videos were offering. Offer up a brief, out of context premise, follow it with a simple bold type message to be taken as matter of fact in its mocking. It’s basically a “think this” proposition.
The problem with this era of feminism is that it’s “truisms” are taken as articles of faith. There’s no interest in critical discourse when all the answers are provided for you.
We need worthy adversaries? Isn’t “owning the society, lock stock and barrel” worthy enough?
Win the arguments but lose the war…. I actually wonder whether we’ll be able to debate this stuff in 5 years time on an open platform – wouldn’t surprise me if sites like this are forced to close/driven underground by the thought police – Rollo mentioned 1984….
I think perhaps you misunderstand the larger societal debate, as a few perhaps have alluded to earlier in the comments. The fault dear Brutus lies in your reliance on logos, when the entire feminist house o’ cards is build upon a raging hurricane of pathos. While there is some satisfaction to be had in being right, in that horrible objective way that feminist mind finds so disdainful, ultimately the hamster will rebuild given the chance to plug ones ears and hum.
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It really comes down to who has a model that matches what is seen in the real world. Blogs like this have models that actually work, they effectively describe what is going on out there, and are useful in making predictions. That is why I gave up the models I was indoctrinated in and took up the stuff I see on Manosphere sites such as this — these models here work.
Before I throw a blanket on The Echo Chamber, there are some facts to note: manboobz gets more hits than roissy, now.
And to our Distinguished Manosphere Bloggers who built their sterling reps on retreading 70s Self-Help Zen philosophy – Susan Walsh gets more hits than all of us combined.
Shorter than my post even, she puts up 2 micro-paragraphs on “Girls” and gets 500 comments.
In spite of our declarations of online victory, somebody sure likes HUS and Futrelle. I’m reminded of that every time I read Drudge see a new story of some kid getting persecuted by a state university for calling a co-ed a “feminazi” and $100 billion of “federal money” is earmarked for Women’s Studies Scholarships. Who’s winning again? But, it’s really fun to post how susan is “an idiot” and count it as an actual accomplishment.
Still doesn’t change the actuality.
Before I throw a blanket on The Echo Chamber, there are some facts to note: manboobz gets more hits than roissy, now. If the choice is between being correct or popular, I will stand on the correct side.
Spread the red pill one guy at a time. Talk to your friends and relatives. Explain how it all leads to the fall of civilization, and show how this is already happening. It might not take with everybody right now, but the seed will be planted. As things get worse, they will wonder why, and then an old conversation comes to mind…
Considering 400 of them are generated by the same 12 commenters who’ve been sucking her tits for the past 3 years, color me unimpressed. However, point taken. For every Athol Kay or RooshV there’s a Kay Hymowitz and a Kate Bolick being paid hand over fist to pander to the vicarious indignation needs of girl-world.
The joys of living in a female driven commercialist society. Making someone feel good about their mistakes is more profitable than making them take a harder path to actually feeling good about their lives.
Yohami posted this:
http://yohami.com/blog/2012/05/30/girl-writes-what-vs-the-nagging-feminist-wife/
This is the Girl Writes What video this girl takes out of context. Well worth the watch.
There is going to be a TV series based on Kate Bolick. What is it that they could do from week to week? How many stories could there be with her situation?
@Leap, it’s more gratifying (and entertaining) to pander to women’s need for indignation.
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/10/17/indignation/
If it’s a question of reason vs. indignation, indignation wins every time.
Congrats on making the list Dalrock.
The first thing I thought about the video was, “Awesome DKM as a soundtrack”. But they changed to something awful after the first bit.
Anyway, I think as mentu over UMan observed, there isn’t really an argument here. If anything it is an excellent advert for how destructive and awful feminism is. After all, at no point it is ever pointed out that any of the spoken parts is incorrect, just that she doesn’t like them.
The best she seemed to be able to come up with was some idiot troll posting a tiny throw away comment about raping women, assuming that was even genuine. Which given the behavior of feminists in particular and leftists in general is at least a questionable assumption.
The bit at the end was simply bizarre. I’m not sure why she is so delusional that she thinks that anybody she attempted to out as “evil misogynists” would doubt that feminists were incapable of using the intertubes.
It seems on the whole she has produced a wonderful puff piece for MRA’s everywhere.
You are right on the observation about needing worthy adversaries though. This is something you would have to think is some sort of MRA agitprop to make feminists look like clueless morons. It was difficult to escape the thought while watching it that “surely feminists can’t be this stupid that they think this is helping their cause”. Although that was coupled with, “Surely whoever produced this is so stupid they are in danger of forgetting to breathe”.
This does suggest an experiment though. Lets see if she does forget to breathe. If so, we can conclude she is definitely a feminist and this was a serious exercise.
Jason
@Terse, does anyone find it in the least bit ironic that an Atlantic article bemoaning the lack of “marriageable” men should hold a up a woman like Kate Bolick as an authority on the subject? She is literally a millionaire because a fem-centric society wants to commiserate about a condition women (and their beta drones) are directly responsible for?
Think about that, Kate Bolick’s million dollar book deal, her appearances on morning shows and even CNN panels, and her being optioned for a TV show are all dependent upon her NOT finding a man, NOT finding love, nor fulfillment, and NOT finding a solution to her quest for an ‘acceptable’ long term monogamy. The day she finds a husband, the day she finds happiness, is the day she loses her authority and career.
The hamster needs adrenaline rushes, not boring explanations.
If this is the case, should the hamster be allowed to vote? And should not all of that adrenaline shorten its lifespan?
@ Rollo
I haven’t read that one of yours. From the title I bet it fits right in with the idea of women loving drama and that the idea of “Contrast is King” Roissy and Roosh advocate to get a woman’s juices flowing all in one article.
Sounds like a fun combination of a post.
The irony of this turning so many people to HUS (for example, I found the manosphere through HUS from that Atlantic article) tickles me. Then for them to get angry at us for telling the truth that we see in front of us that they invited us to see….
Hilarious.
all dependent upon her NOT finding a man, NOT finding love, nor fulfillment, and NOT finding a solution to her quest for an ‘acceptable’ long term monogamy.
So, she will know what it is like to be a man, to sacrifice. But unlike the typical man, she will be sacrificing all the way to the bank.
Actually, had read that one already. Loved it, just didn’t recognize it at first. It was really good at having me think about the ways I should draw lines and defend my stances so that it doesn’t come across as overly aggressive. Instead – authoritative leader.
The day she finds a husband, the day she finds happiness, is the day she loses her authority and career.
No it’s not. The day she meets the man is the day the tv show changes it’s focus from the single girl who could not find love to the late 30’s something woman who did it!! Whoo hoo for her (I am new here. Warning. I am being very sarcastic). Then they will showcase the wedding and her very devoted and doting husband whom will be at her beck and call. Then all the women will be so happy for this woman who “has it all” and if she can do it so can I! She will go from being the spokeswoman for singles to the spokeswomen for those who can have it all and in there late 30’s, too. From there the tv show will chronicle her artificial insemination treatments. It’ll be huge if it happens.
Stingray, and then the divorce, which will be “you go girl” again, with our heroine taking care of ther two adopted kids and struggling to make a living of the child support from that bad, bad man.
Yohami,
You forgot to add in a jab at all men for not being able to man up. He would obviously be neglectful or emotionally/physically harass her. Poor princess.
Yep, Yohami. I meant to put that part in and forgot. Thanks!
feminists need to learn the basics before we will get any good debates out of them. unfortunately the basics refute the majority of feminist thought.
The day she meets the man is the day the tv show changes it’s focus from the single girl who could not find love to the late 30′s something woman who did it!!
Then it will become boring like Rhoda did when she got married. And you have it right as how it will be boring, a supplicating man (with telegraphed jokes and laugh tracks) at her beck and call.
@Samuel
Win the right men and it doesn’t matter; women will follow. With that said, our most difficult task is breaking the frame of feminism before we can approach the questions with a frame of logic. We aren’t simply substituting one irrational/emotional frame with another, but we still have to break the emotional frame to make room for logic.
feminists need to learn the basics before we will get any good debates out of them. unfortunately the basics refute the majority of feminist thought.
This is a long wait for a train that don’t come. They don’t want basics. They don’t want debate. They don’t want thought. They don’t want good. They want to rule.
If they come after someone it will be to harm them personally. They exposed Roissy. That’s what they’ll do to Dalrock, et al if he becomes a big enough threat.
I didn’t want Herman Cain to be the nominee, but I hope everyone watched that political assassination. Where did those women go? Why stop just because he dropped out of the race? Those accusers could have extracted some serious money had the allegations been true. Not. A. Peep.
With that said, our most difficult task is breaking the frame of feminism before we can approach the questions with a frame of logic.
We are the way to doing that. By ignoring them. That is the first step to breaking their frame.
“The argument is not fought with logic.
It takes effort to think logically. The fathers of modern culture were able to brainwash an entire generation without using logic at all.”
” If you try and debate with logic and a level temperament, without being ‘mean,’ they will belittle you, shame you ”
I’ll illustrate the above points with a little example that just happened to me with my 12-year old daughter. She was commenting on how I looked at things differently, and I told her the story of the blind men and the elephant to illustrate the point of how people can perceive the same thing differently, and each of them coming to a reasonable conclusion with none of them being able to grasp the truth in its entirety. Her response to this age-old parable? How can you be so mean to blind people, it’s like your saying they’re stupid. Let’s here it for public school.
” Making someone feel good about their mistakes is more profitable than making them take a harder path to actually feeling good about their lives.”
Much easier to babysit and build up self-esteem than to teach them anything, either.
I told her the story of the blind men and the elephant
Shame on you, he was “visually challenged”. If you said this, you would not have been so mean.
Off topic: Deepak Chopra provides laughably horrendous advice to a woman who keeps chasing bad boys-
https://www.deepakchopra.com/blog/view/592/breaking_a_relationship_pattern
I agree completely. But putting up a Susan Walsh pinata in a hostile forum is a waste of effort.
If it’s for entertainment purposes, OK, I suppose I see the angle. Still, it’s like futrelle putting up a dalrock pinata for his Greek Chorus to jeer at – it accomplishes, what?
As a man, I am only interested in equal rights. I don’t want or need superior rights. I am ok with shared custody. I feel meritocracy in the work place and school is fine, and if a woman is the better man, so be it. I feel everybody should pull their own weight financially and I am not looking for a handout or welfare. The problem with feminism is they want more than their share. In fact, they really want everything. Getting 50% of the kids, assets, government benefits, health care, and dangerous or arduous jobs would be considered a step down for women. Equality is the last thing they want.
So Kate Bolick cried all the way to the bank….
Ok I get it
Yeah, you guys and Orly Taitz, same struggle. No one answers to her strong arguments. Must be because of her relevance and intelligence. A coalition MRA/Taitz may work though. Obviously when people don’t answer to your argument on the internet, they are baffled with your empirical evidence, logic and witty eloquence. There’s no other rational explanation.
@ rockthrowingpeasant
Oh, oh, me, me! I know the answer!
How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
40. One to change the bulb and 39 to form the “Survivors of Darkness Support Group”
How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
One to change the bulb and one to write a book about it.
101. One to suggest installing it, one to oppose it as a penetrative act, one to find out if the socket complies, one to sue the inquirer for sexual harassment, one to sue the potential installer for “darkness abuse”, one to actually attempt the installation, one to seek a restraining order against the lightbulb limiting it’s proximity to the socket by 1500′, one to issue the restraining order, one to file a paternity suit on behalf of the socket against the burnt out bulb, one to hold a press conference pointing out the number of jobs this empty socket is creating and coyly suggest that what the world needs is more empty sockets, fifteen to report the story in the media, 15 to organize a march declaring the rights of sockets and the injustice of lightbulbs, 5 to organize an anti-lightbulb screwing in advocacy group. 5 to re-educate the one who suggested installing the lightbulb, 5 to form a committee to discover ways of making sockets screw into lightbulbs,…………………………………………………………………………
You don’t need adversaries because you have already lost. The die is cast. You want to revert back to an earlier version of America, they want to extend this one for as long as it can go. Neither option is viable. The winners will rule the rubble.
A good strategy (In light of this type of uneven battle) would be to encourage misperception of the MRM inside the enemy’s camp. Encourage them to attack, as we are only a weak group of misogynists. If we do get attacked, that would create more attention then all of our reason has. As their attacks increase, people will get curious about what is causing all of the fighting. And our rag tag group just wont go away for some reason. Attack after attack, we will resist and win converts. Dust will clear, and reason itself will be seen as have been under attack. Cue feminist Exodus, collapse.
Oooo Ooooo here are the worthy adversaries….
http://www.christianforums.com/t7661701/
Ultimately you’re right, and that is the most frustrating thing. The solution is clear but is also intractable.
We are all Greece now: it is just a matter of time. There is really nothing that can be done until the system collapses, at which point we can build something better. Nothing meaningful can be changed until a system reset occurs.
It is honestly amazing to me that so few people in our society can connect the dots. It’s just like the old proverb:
Here’s a blog post for you to chew on, Dalrock: “What can be done?” Is there really any chance of turning the ship around before it sinks?
It is honestly amazing to me that so few people in our society can connect the dots.
———————————————————————————————-
I cannot figure this out….its an understatement to say so. I have tried literally everything. I even once laid my books out for my small business to prove to a friend, an electrical engineer, smart logical rational guy, that raising my taxes would hurt my ability to hire. He had this bizarre belief that there was some trick or loop hole or something that would result in the increased tax not affecting my hiring. He was harping about me getting some federal rebate of 5k or so, which if I hire a 30 k worker my math shows Im out 25k….Im not sure even a P/L and balance sheet convinced him.
Its some kind of mental disorder
empathologicalism, it’s magical thinking / optimism.
Connecting the dots shows a figure different than the desired result? break the figure, impose the desired result, and fill the gaps with luck hope and imagination.
Thing is, it does work sometimes. It’s a good tool if you know when you’re doing it. When you dont, like with your friend, it’s just plain stupidity. And then when things go bad, the same stupidity fills the gaps and puts the blame somewhere else.
You don’t need adversaries because you have already lost. The die is cast. You want to revert back to an earlier version of America, they want to extend this one for as long as it can go. Neither option is viable. The winners will rule the rubble.
Greenlander: “Here’s a blog post for you to chew on, Dalrock: “What can be done?” Is there really any chance of turning the ship around before it sinks?”
Dalrock might have already written that post. Check his archives for September 2011, “Nothing is more subversive than the truth”.
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/09/20/nothing-is-more-subversive-than-the-truth/
@Greenlander
Deti’s link above was my first thought. The bright side is feminism while still very powerful is a spent force, and it can’t stop individual men and women from adjusting rationally and making better choices. As Phantasmagoria points out in the previous thread this unfortunately means a significant number of men won’t have a viable option to marry and raise a family. I see no way around that, and I am as troubled as he is about it if not more so.
My second thought is that aside from the above, I think I’m ironically more of a pessimist than many others. Profoundly broken systems seem to be able to limp along for quite a long time before they collapse. What happened to the USSR wasn’t preordained to occur as quickly as it did, and even then it limped along for quite a few decades, even surviving outright invasion by the Germans. Cuba and N. Korea seem to point to the fact that truly dysfunctional societies (far more so than ours) can limp along for a very long time. As Keynes said, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. I think a very limited swing back toward SMP rationality is far more likely to occur than a reset during ours or our children’s or grandchildren’s lifetimes. Most would see this as me being an optimist, but given the gravity of the situation I think the opposite is true; the expectation of a near term reset is based on false optimism in my opinion. I’m not saying you are predicting an imminent reset, but I do think there is a larger fantasy out there.
You all are looking at this whole issue from a male perspective.
When a man talks about winning an arguement he is saying he proved he was correct. This is done with facts, figures, statistics, and logic. Women in an arguement could care less about who is right/correct. They just want to win. They will distort or ignore facts, lie through their teeth, emote, threaten, cry, what ever it takes. To them the only thing that counts is that they won. They do not care if men think they lost. Only the opinions of other women matter. Their position on team woman is the only issue for women.
We are not going to win the opinion of women because no matter how we prove that Feminism is an evil and harmful/hateful ideology, they will not care. What ever is best for them is best; and their horizon for evaluating outcomes is extremely short. Long term harm will never be visible to them when they are blinded by short term benefits.
What can be done?
I say, the “market” has already acted. To wit: the video we’re discussing. Men have reacted to feminism via Red Pill, Game, and MGTOW. That’s why the feminists and those that dare not defy the hamster are in panic mode. Nice young betas, by observation alone, have figured out survival methods (video games, porn, MGTOW). Are these ideal? No, but they are survival methods. Some, like me, serve as examples for them to observe and alter behavior.
Over at Christian Men’s Defense Network, you can read the panic. I notice the manosphere talks a good deal about hearing the death rattle of our civilization. Understand that the civilization they/we are talking about has been gone for decades. Feminism works to undo itself because it violates natural order. Churches are dying because they bowed to feminist pressure and houses messages that conflict with scripture. Our society crumbled because feminism demanded the changes that any fool could see would bring about the destruction. What we’re in now is a feminist culture/society. We demand entitlements (literally) without cost (tax the 1%!). We demand wars fought on our behalf, but only .45% of our population went into war zones.
The “death rattle” we hear growing louder is feminism. Cause of death: Getting what it wanted.
What more can be done? I’m taking the message to my sons and nephews and, if she’s willing to listen – my niece (though I fear that’s baked in the cake, given her princess attitude as the sole granddaughter). Prepare them. Counsel. Give them a Bible and tell them that those that tell them to put that “book” down and just listen to “what it really means” aren’t just wrong – they’re evil. Be unafraid to call things “evil” and “heresy.” Eschew “niceness” in favor of “kindness.” And if your world blows up on Columbus Day, find people who will guide you using the Word and turn your back on those that tell you, “Do whatever she asks to get her back.”
@Mikediver
My goal isn’t to win large numbers of women over with logical arguments. Those women who are open to making better choices in their own self interest as well as better moral choices are a small group but still important. I do try to offer something to them, and I hope I can make an impact there. But my main goal is to help men who are looking for answers. At the very least we can help individual men and women make better choices. Along the way we may be able to influence limited degrees of social and legal change, including in Christianity.
“The bright side is feminism while still very powerful is a spent force, and it can’t stop individual men and women from adjusting rationally and making better choices.”
Feminism has no real theoretical luminaries anymore. Any new thoughts or ideas coming from feminism for the last 10 to 15 years or so have been absurd to the extreme. Catharine MacKinnon arguing that “all sex is rape”? Seriously? Moreover, you know it’s pretty bad when Amanda Marcotte and Jessica Valenti are presented as feminism’s primary theoreticians and spokespersons.
There is nothing rational about feminism as a societal or cultural force now. The problem is that feminism’s main theoretical underpinnings (men and women are equal, equivalent and interchangeable; women are able to work like men and have sex like men with no ill effects) are so shot through society that they are considered “normal” when they are not.
“As Phantasmagoria points out in the previous thread this unfortunately means a significant number of men won’t have a viable option to marry and raise a family. I see no way around that, and I am as troubled as he is about it if not more so.”
And this is bad for society. Marriage is really a series of burdens put on a man. THe average beta is supposed to get two real, tangible benefits: regular sex on demand with little effort; and assurances that any children she has are his. Now, he can’t be reasonably assured he will get even these things from a marriage. Now, he can’t be assured that she won’t simply leave and yet tether him to his obligations while she is released from hers.
When faced with this reality, learning it either easy or hard, many men simply give up. They have no incentive for work, production, or self-improvement. When that happens to enough men, society crumbles. We’re seeing it already.
To the ever louder cries of “Man up!” from the likes of Bill Bennett and Kay Hymowitz, they reply: “What for?”
Ive taken a new tact re church, and I dislike it but have tried every other thing and no go. I stopped going…..again…..and we are about to start at a tiny little upstart Vineyard in our area, and hope that by being a core family we can have an impact.
I told my wife that if one of these churches could let me speak to the men, I would quickly sort out if there are enough ears to hear that we could have an influential group.
I’m fortunate I guess in that I am totally comfortable in public speaking, and have done it extensively so its a role I like, and think that by doing that in churches as I told my wife, it could slowly grow a new type of group of Christian men….in that church.
Maybe wishful thinking but I intend to try. Other than that frankly Ive no idea what effort to put forth
@empathologicalism
Funny stuff. I only got down to the fourth comment, by the lady holding the plunger. She points out that while her husband can do everything men and women traditionally can do, she can do neither. Go feminism!
At least she has plenty of moxie.
Yea, well, yea…Thats right, since the husband knows about cars and he changed diapers that kinda negates all that and this resume of hers well it oughta be the final say on this matter because she has just pointed out she can’t sew and my head is hurting so its evident I am not a neurologist
The women on that forum have plenty of moxie. The evidence of rot is quite substantial but I think it would be wise to step away from that forum. It’s really a waste of energy to try to sift through the rubble.
For me….I have no choice…..banned…..for my life and the life of my lawn. Whichever is longer
Our feminist adversaries are currently better because they continue to shape public policy by passing laws. Let’s never forget this.
“I have no choice…..banned…..for my life and the life of my lawn. Whichever is longer ”
Well…..Are you leaving your lawn in the loving care of a feminist?
@theprivateman
OTOH, this means they have been given the noose with which they are currently hanging themselves.
Our feminist adversaries are currently better because they continue to shape public policy by passing laws. Let’s never forget this.
Indeed, but our task is different from theirs. They own the Zeitgeist. Our task is undermining that, which I think we are doing well. Unless and until the Zeitgeist changes, there won’t be a significant degree of legal changes in our favor, because many of them would be laughed out of the legislatures (we can make incremental changes, and there are targeted lobbying groups who are making headway there).
@Brendan,
It will take a crisis before things change. It is likely that some type of economic or other crisis will totally change the way we live and then the Zeitgeist will change. If women are hungry, unemployed and government support is ended, then even an unemployed ex-husband father has more ability to figure out a way to survive. Then watch how these women change and crawl back asking for help. At that point the man has the upper hand and can reestablish some of what was stolen from him (especially more time with his children) and demand a public statement of truth from her. The money will be long gone and pissed away.
The current Zeitgeist will exist and continue to get worse until it collapses of its own weight or some external event causes it to collapse. Appealing to God to take away the consequences of actions will be futile, since all humans have free will and must suffer temporal consequences, even if a person’s soul is ultimately saved in the end. Is this not a frequent and common theme in the Bible?
Well…..Are you leaving your lawn in the loving care of a feminist?
————————————————————————-
Some stupid remark about the shrubs…..I’ll allow you to make it up.
It will take a crisis before things change. It is likely that some type of economic or other crisis will totally change the way we live and then the Zeitgeist will change.
Then watch how these women change and crawl back asking for help.
——————————————————————————————
It was a micro version of this that led to the reconciliation of my marriage and my marriage being a good one post separation and reconciliation. The fix was driven by events dramatic enough that the changes were permanent, and it stuck. Its like I had a small lad and was able to run a controlled experiment on your hypothesis here…..it was proven correct
Here is a treasure trove and I will be blogging about it for my 6 readers…..
http://rachelheldevans.com/4-common-misconceptions-egalitarianism
Thats just one of many many articles full of insight into the mind of the non-fixed-value evangelical Christian woman
@ Empathologicalism
Regarding your explanation of taxes rising, thus lowering your ability to hire additional workers. I’d highly recommend readingEconomics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt
For men, and a sparingly few women, having a laid out process of detailed understanding to a problem is very beneficial. The task before us is not just understanding the process but relaying that information in a manner others will understand and find benefit.
Not gonna happen, sorry.
The Spearhead’s been up for 4 years – other even greater sites are long gone with not even an archeological remnant to show they ever existed.
Notice ALL you ever read there is how upset EVERY article is about some chick cutting off her dude’s pecker, or some college pumping a billion dollars into Women’s Studies – or some bigshot politician in DC bolstering VAWA and on and on and on?
Complaining about your enemy’s VICTORIES
is NOT Victory
Not even by 3020.
I wrote extensively on the reasons why mrm will fail, so not to belabor the point and derail the thread any further, let’s just say the issues you bring up sound like a omen of failure – certainly not victory.
Dalrock,
“My second thought is that aside from the above, I think I’m ironically more of a pessimist than many others”
A couple reasons for (hard-bitten) optimism:
The driving force behind the Sexual Devoution was the Overpopulation Scare. That Scare is rapidly being replaced by the Omigod There Won’t Be Enough Smart People to Pay My Medicare Scare.
Lifelong monogamy is a cultural, not natural, phenomenon created for the purpose of raising children. When the creators of the culture decided there were too many children, it is no surprise that they therefore abandoned the effort to create a culture designed to raise them well. That decision is (perforce) being reconsidered. Stop watching crappy Christian movies and start watching, say, The Avengers.
Likewise, Strauss and Howe in Generations (20 years ago) identified an 80-year cycle of gender roles swinging between maximum androgyny on the one end, and maximum differentiation on the other. They predicted that we’d start swinging toward differentiation recently, and we are.
Both you and Susan are part of that process.
People are cheering the collapse but i’m afraid that once the collapse happens rather than state influence being diminished people will more than ever be forced to the government’s teat.
Look at the Soviet Union after the collapse Russia is turning to state fascism, resources are being nationalized under corporate oligopolies and the state is paying women to have children. Russia currently has the world’s highest divorce rates, something like 70% followed closely by other former Eastern block states.
“Well…..Are you leaving your lawn in the loving care of a feminist?”
Only if she trims the bush so that you can see the problem spots. 🙂
Re the feminist’s vid – the threat is basically, “feminists can use the internet to falsely accuse you of things relating to rape”.
@Leap of a Beta 7:16 pm
Of course. Telling average women what they want to hear is the surest way to gain mainstream acceptance and financial success. Katie Bollocks is just one obvious example. I’m sure this applies to every other society as well.
I actually disagree with the premise we need “worthy” adversaries.
When you’re right, you’re right.
Anybody else challenging you is destined to be either a complete fool or evil. It’s like arguing whether water is wet. Nobody can be a “worthy” adversary when they take such stupid stances and live in such a delusional world.
I know you mean well. Still I don’t want to overpost on stuff here I already covered in detail. Discussing it there makes us better guests, here.
“The misandry bubble” was written – how LONG ago? What did that do? I will say it’s not good to toss around phrases like that – especially ones that didn’t accomplish squat.
For the same reason Detroit Welfare Queens aren’t crushed for having fourteen kids. For the same reason starvin’ Africa is never crushed: mo’ free gummint money.
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Opponents? Arguments? Since (as everybody knoes), Men & Manhoodness is the source of all evil & suffering for wymminz, and the world, therefore: to talk to evil is to indulge it. Or: Shut Up, she explained. Silly Dalrock.
Soraya Chemaly at Huffington Post is a better-than-average writer. I can’t tell if she would be as intellectually honest as someone like Susan Walsh, but she’s still a cut above the typical Jezebel or Feministing writer.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/