Linkage #1: I imagine Tacomaster has already received more than his fill of advice by now, but after I gave my own response I asked Cane Caldo if he would be willing to offer his thoughts as well. Cane has an eloquence when describing sex in Christian marriage which I find very moving, such as this quote:
For the loving husband and wife that flow of love can only (and blessedly!) spill over the brim of our cups into each other’s. It’s not trouble, it’s not fantasy, and it’s certainly not just you. I have learned to loathe even the specter of “naughtiness” to be brought into discussions of the Christian sex. It is holy, and holy means dark and secret to those outside.
You can find more like this from Cane in his excellent post titled: Tacomaster Desires Steadfast Love
Linkage #2: Grerp is back, and I’ve reactivated the link on the blogroll. I was going to leave a comment but Ecclesiastes already said it and I failed in my attempt to prove that I’m not a robot.
Linkage #3: The Social Pathologist continues the discussion of the Feminine Imperative with his post: Marx and the Feminine Imperative.
Linkage #4: Captain Capitalism has a new book out, Enjoy the Decline.
I am obliged. Ha!
Dalrock, a link for you! There’s absolutely no details so I can’t delve deeper into it and offer you an example of a serious church… but at least one can take small comfort that somewhere in Savannah, Georgia, a preacher is pissing off college-age feminists.
http://www.redandblack.com/views/christianity-cannot-blame-feminism-for-social-ills/article_ee49f838-59e0-11e2-a931-001a4bcf6878.html
Dang, I’d have run a free promo on that book if I’d have known linkage was afoot.
Anyway, I will check this stuff out. Thanks Dalrock!
Linkage back up for grerp. Her old comments are gold.
Dalrock, I need some help. I am swallowing the Red Pill, hook, line and sinker. As a 20 and then some man, raised in the Church to be a nice guy, I’m starting to see how much of what I’ve been taught is wrong.
My problem is how to share that with the people I love, particularly my mother. She’s been a monkey on my back about finding a wife. I haven’t dated in a while but at the same time I know marriage is a huge risk. I’ve tried to explain the risks and why I’m taking it slow when it comes to dating. I tried opening with your article on “Reframing Christian Marriage” but she has decided that it and any other article I send her way is brimming with hate and anger to women. I’ve already made the the mistake of letting her reframe the issues that way. Her advice is to read Eph 4 which talks about ” not returning to the thinking of the Gentiles which is futile.” I find that terribly painful because it is feminist thinking that she unconsciously ascribes to. To be clear, she has “betaized” my father completely. Seeing how she treats him at home this Christmas was a very rude shock to my Red Pill eyes. She has also accused me of having been so hurt by a woman that there is no forgiveness, which is why I’m turning into a misogynist.
So, how do I even open a conversation about this stuff? How do I open her eyes? How do I share this with my sister so that they actually have a chance to not only remain chaste but also marry and then stay married?
@GeeBee:
Point 1: She’s your Mother.
Point 2: She’s a woman.
Point 3: So long as she’s not forcibly in your frame, she won’t hue to logic.
Thus, you have to force her into your frame or simply cut her out of it. Plus, feel free to read Eph 4: 25-32 at her. Then in the most flat, honest, straight forward way, simply say “I find what you’ve done to my Father and the example you set to be unBiblical. You are my Mother and I will bring honor to you, but I will not dwell under your command nor put myself and my future children into harm’s way simply to sate your lust for grandchildren.”
You can continue on in this line, but don’t expect to talk to her for a good 2 years.
If you want something less… final, you probably want to give up attempting to discuss topics using logic with your mother. Make statements; do not leave room for discussion. She can’t dissemble about a topic when you refuse to let her engage on it.
You’re going to get a really hard lesson in “balls of steel” practice. Dealing with your own mother can be quite an experience for most guys that hit the Red Pill. I’m a bit lucky in that regard, as I can force others into my logic frame.
Somewhat off-topic… but here’s a link in today’s economist about the decline of marriage.
http://www.economist.com/printedition/2013-01-12
Unfortunately, the tone is very blue-pill.
OT: I’m sure you’ve read the news from Italy:
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2259785/Berlusconi-labels-judges-feminists-communists-order-pay-wife-29m-year-divorce-settlement.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
I’m eager to hear what Heartiste, Roosh and their cockmen ilk who shit all over men’s rights all the time have to say about this.
Well, what’s the deal with our old pal Berlusconi, cocksmen? Didn’t you say he’s an alpha or something? What are you going to tell me? That his Game wasn’t tight enough? Maybe you’ll realize that feminism isn’t so much fun after all, cocksmen?
@Dalrock
Thanks for the link love.
@GeeBee
You’re getting a real good Red-Pill lesson in your mother. Women, especially women that pretend to any kind of faith, are particularly hard-hearted on the plight of men. Your mother or your sister will not answer to this stuff, or to any God-given logic. The times are much like those of Amos:
For the way the times are, I realize all the stuff I post to my blog, or even stuff like what you referenced on Dalrock are blasphemies in the eyes of such people as your mother seems to be. As I’ve said many times about the things I write, there is much Scriptural that I write that wouldn’t be allowed to be preached in the average church in any way for the same reasons.
The watch-word for you then is judiciousness. You have to honor your mother, yes, but you don’t have to honor her wickedness in the sight of God either. As Looking Glass mentions, your mother is really expressing a blood-lust and idolatry for grandchildren and doesn’t care about you and your fate in any way in getting there, nor how God-honoring what she proposes you to enter is. As for when you have to answer your mother and can’t force her into your frame:
I would go ahead and explain this, but the same basic concept is described in the game literature with the term “Agree and Amplify”. It’s rough and almost demeaning to do given how mothers often are. Thankfully I haven’t had to deal with this with regards to marriage (but I have with other topics), but the overall concept behind it is the same.
Hope this helps.
Gee Bee:
I get the same pressure from my dad. This is a man who was divorced by my mom, screwed royally, and who I and my sister lost contact with through a large chunk of our young adulthood. He then married again, and got screwed over in divorce court again, only a couple of years ago. I usually just smile and say “Thanks dad, for the advice. I’m sure some day I’ll meet a nice girl who I won’t be able to resist.”
With respect to ballista74 above, who gave you good advice, I don’t know that your mom is being selfish as much as she’s (at least partially) projecting her own ideals onto the world. We all do this to some extent. Your mom idealizes you, as you’re her son, so she thinks you should be able to land a hot virgin with no trouble and keep her happy effortlessly. She will also project her best qualities onto your wife, and repress all her bad qualities (not only failing to displace them, but failing to acknowledge them herself). I suspect this is the (often shockingly painful) source of conflict that I hear of often, where a man’s mom will side with his divorcing wife, rather than him, when the “boom is lowered” (TM Dalrock).
One funny thing you could do is to take your mom out with you to the club or some social gathering, and ask her to help you choose her daughter-in-law, from among the drunken, loose, used up slatterns which are falling all over themselves to sex up whoever will give them a bare minimum of attention. That would be a good wake-up call for her, if she’d accept it.
Regards, Boxer
GeeBee:
“So, how do I even open a conversation about this stuff? How do I open her eyes?”
You probably can’t.
Remember you’re commanded to honor your mother. This does not, however, require you to love her or share your beliefs with her or allow her to influence you or even have her in your life.
Your dating and sex life is none of your mother’s business. You don’t need to say it that way, though. Perhaps you can say it thus: “Mom, I love you. I will marry if and when I find the right woman.” And don’t respond further.
“How do I share this with my sister so that they actually have a chance to not only remain chaste but also marry and then stay married?”
Sugar coat it. All women are red pill — they just don’t know it as such. Tell her the consequences of sluthood and high N. Tell her how SMV works for women, and that the fantastic ride she’s on now where her SMV is sky high isn’t going to last. All this of course depends on how old she is.
Not everyone can take the red pill. The manosphere is triaging people now — working on those who need the help now, putting off those who can keep for later, and leaving as we find them those who cannot be salvaged or choose not to be salvaged.
@LookingGlass
While her treatment of my Father has been unBiblical, I just don’t see myself cutting myself off from her or the rest of my family. And while keeping silent on the issue is the easiest, it also won’t prevent issues that my younger sisters will soon have when they try to find a husband.
@Ballista
Thaks for your advice. I can try to Agree & Amplify but at the same time I doubt it will change her mind. I agree scripture can be surprisingly rough on us all when it is actully read and applied.
@Boxer
I like and agree with most of your phyc-breakdown of my mom. Its not that she hate or even dislikes me, she just wants me to think about the world the way that she thinks about the world.
How about a little Nobel level wisdom?
“The mother wants the love of her child above all things, even if it should make an imbecile of him.”
– Pierre Curie
@GeeBee:
On the sisters bit, it really depends on how solid your relationship is with them. If it’s fairly trusting, then it’s just a matter of using the basic game techniques inside a conversation. (Which is a good way of saying, make sure the conversations are 1 on 1) I would probably suggest first a discussion of “The Wall”, then work through other concepts. The idea isn’t to preach to them, it’s to cue them up to mention what they’ve seen. Once they’re in your Logic Frame, the conclusions come pretty quickly.
It can take a while, but if you have a decent level of trust, it can be done.
Hey Dalrock,
Have you seen the latest Marriage Strike article,
It’s called Young Men Giving Up On Marriage: ‘Women Aren’t Women Anymore’
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/young-men-giving-up-on-marriage-women-arent-women-anymore/
Anonymous: interestng article. What man wants to marry and procreate with a woman who thinks that an intact marriage is an absolute right of the child?
“Is not an absolute right”
While we’re talking about articles, does anybody want to take a shot at this one?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323374504578217973101313736.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet