One of the more common refrains in the “Where have all of the good men gone!” lament is men’s increasing unwillingness to court women the way women expect to be courted. This is almost always framed as either a great mystery or a case of weak men screwing up feminism (or both).
Examples of this concern abound, from Aunt Haley’s last three posts, to the divorced single mother who found out men weren’t willing to spend very much to court her, to the woman in Vox’s recent post lamenting that her 59 year old friend was only offered half a sandwich by a recent date. Commenter Tom H weighed in with the same concern the other day about his two 30ish career women daughters who struggle to find men who will date them without “pushing for sex”.
How did we get here?
To better understand why men are withdrawing from courtship we need to consider the roles men and women play in the process and how the sexual revolution has impacted the landscape. Men foot the searching costs in the marriage and sexual marketplace (MMP & SMP). This means bearing most of the risk of rejection and expending the bulk of the resources to facilitate the process of meeting and getting to know one another. As the ones who bear the costs of courtship, men have a strong incentive to minimize the number of women they court and the overall duration of time spent in the process. However, as the consumers of courtship, women have an incentive to draw the process out as long as possible and to receive courtship from as many men as possible.
Over the last few decades the expectation that men bear the bulk of the costs and risks of courtship has remained relatively constant, but the time period women expect to be courted has expanded dramatically.
As recently as 1980, the median age of marriage for women in the US was 22. By 2011 this was 26.5, but this signifigantly understates the nature of the change since it doesn’t account for the rapidly expanding group of 30 something women who haven’t been able to marry. A full 25% of all US White 30-34 year old women have yet to marry, and these aging would be brides are the loudest voices complaining about the lack of courtship.
The problem with women’s complaints about courtship is easier to understand if you consider the needs of the man. He needs to manage risk vs reward. When courting, there are two fundamental risks. These are the risk of wasting resources on the wrong women, and the risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.
Risk of wasting resources on the wrong women.
There are three subcategories of resource risk:
- Expending courtship resources on women not interested in marriage (in general).
- Expending courtship resources on women who are interested in marriage, but not interested in marrying him (aiming too high).
- Risk of aiming too low.
Risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.
This basic risk can in turn be broken down into two subcategories:
- Risk of nuclear rejection.
- Cumulative risk of rejection.
For the ladies reading who might be offended at this, I’ll frame it differently. Picture your ideal husband. Do you want him to propose to you after having been rejected by numerous other women? Of course not. You don’t want to feel like the consolation prize, and you don’t wan’t to marry a man whom other women are known to have rejected. In order to avoid this, the man you ultimately marry must be careful with how freely he expresses interest in women who aren’t signaling an interest in him.
On the question of wasting resources, do you want your future husband to divide his courtship resources between you and many other women? Or do you want all of his available courtship investment to be devoted solely to you?
What does a woman’s age have to do with courtship?
For a man who is managing the risks of courtship outlined above, the age of a woman is very important. The older a woman is, the more likely it is that she is very picky and/or not seriously looking for a husband. Older women also are less attractive from a courtship perspective because they have used up more of their most attractive/fertile years, and while their attractiveness for marriage has declined their expectations for courtship have only increased. In short, the older a woman gets the worse a bet she becomes (on average) when it comes to courting her.
There is another impact of women increasing the time period they expect courtship, and this is on men’s willingness to court younger women. Consider the 25% of current early thirties White women who still haven’t married; unless they are terminally unattractive an awful lot of courtship has almost certainly been wasted on them. They aren’t just bad bets for courtship today, but (in retrospect) they clearly were bad bets for courtship for the last 15 years. Even more telling, just shy of half of all late twenties White women have never married, which means five years ago 50% of early twenties White women were a complete and total waste of traditional courtship risk and resources. Given the direction of the trends over the last five years, the risk is even higher today.
Put simply, the extended delay of marriage by women has placed marriage minded men in a dilemma; older women are (generally speaking) known bad bets for courtship, but half of early twenties women are also poor bets for courtship. And this is before the man in question starts to consider which of the good bets for courtship (in general) would be a good bet for him personally to court.
It is also worth noting that it isn’t just in delaying marriage that women are extending the period of expected courtship. Women are also driving our divorce revolution, and even with a track record of being the worst possible courtship risk (the kind who marries and then gets unhaaaapy) they still expect to be courted all over again.
The logical adjustment by men.
There are only two logical ways men can respond to women’s extension of courtship. The first logical choice is to recognize that these women are debasing marriage, and decide to “court” for sex and not marriage. For most late teens and early twenties women, this is the only form of courtship which makes sense. This is true in even higher percentages for women in their late twenties or higher. For women looking to soak up courtship in today’s hookup culture there is another serious problem; when courting for sex it is in a man’s best interest to greatly limit the amount of resources he spends before getting sex from a woman. This allows him to cast a wide net while keeping his expenditures down. Ironically, as we have learned from Game a man’s chances of receiving sex from a woman are actually higher when practicing the skittles method of courtship (crass site warning).
But while “courting” for sex is a logical choice, it is not a moral choice, and we still do see men courting for marriage. For these men, having a fairly low age cutoff makes a great deal of sense. A woman in her late twenties who claims to be serious about traditional marriage is far less believable and attractive than a woman who indicates the same thing in her late teens or early twenties. Admittedly few women in their early twenties are believably signaling an interest in marrying soon, but this is a plus when trying to minimize spreading courtship resources around too freely. There are of course a number of other markers a man should consider when determining if a woman is a good bet for marriage, which will narrow the field down further. Making things worse for women looking to soak up “traditional” courtship, the logical strategy for traditional courtship isn’t that different than the strategy for men courting for sex; logically speaking, traditional men should keep courtship expenditure to a minimum until a woman has indicated a fairly strong interest in marrying him. Given the large numbers of women not actually interested in marrying at any given time and the opportunity cost of focusing on a non serious candidate, traditional men will do best to greatly limit their courtship efforts and expenditure until around the time of an engagement, and if they are smart they will also insist on keeping the length of the engagement as short as logistically possible.
See Also: How should women respond to men withdrawing from courtship?
I can boil all this verbiage to a single maxim: Make a good filter and cast a wide net and you will catch your mate without spending too much time, effort, or resources.
Another must read post Dalrock. Well done. Going to be using a lot of this in one of my future posts (if you don’t mind).
We need some social solutions like were done in the past and worked well to establish a social morality again and boost the marriage prospects of moral young people instead of all this whining.
This is very true. Part of me feels cruel for thinking that way, but the logic is inescapable. Essentially, there is a balancing act that goes on in my mind when looking at a woman as a potential mate. And age factors heavily into that analysis. The older the woman, the more she has to bring to the table to compensate for her age.
You are forgetting something, namely,
It is -> REALLY EXPENSIVE <- to date the "old fashioned" way now!
I am not poor, or cheap, but really a "traditional" night out (Simple Dinner / Movie / Drinks) looks like this:
Decent restaurant (not to cheap, no too expensive, like an Outback for instance) 60 bucks
Movie (Two tickets to Gravity for instance, 3d Imax) 30 bucks
Post – Dinner Drinks & a Walk (Drinks at Starbucks, neither I or my girl drinks) 10 Bucks
Nothing special here, but I just spent 100 Bucks on a regular date night!
Twice a week it's two hundred bucks!!!!
Not to mention gas, parking, blah other little incidentals!
So maybe there is an economic factor here at play as well?
Not happening Tom. At least, not peacefully. Too many people are invested in the current system to change it back without violence.
Courtship? There is no courtship. There is no dating. There is only hooking up, and then trying to make a relationship work after you have sex…
Great post.
I see this ending VERY badly for many women…as they can not take being single past 30 as well as a man can. But that’s the consequences you get for your actions.
Women started the marriage strike…and men are going to finish it.
I had a career divorced woman 35+ clearly signal interest. I kinda ignored her. Then she bought me a $150 dinner. That got my attention. She had baggage still from her divorce 7 years earlier. Talked about her ex daily. Too bad.
Chivalry is dead and women killed it…
Women are willing to get as much as they can out of us while providing as little as possible. This is clearly not something that decent people do, and one can therefore only ask whether decent people should associate with women in the first place.
@donalgraeme
Your thinking is waaay too limited. Women can establish social groups through electronic media like facebook and meetups to deal with immorality–calling a skank a “skank,” for example. They can discuss men and women who push hard for sex and limit their dating prospects, just like it used to be done by girls in school and by people at church and other social institutions.
I used to date by taking a gal to a movie OR a dinner–never both unless I had robbed a really wealthy guy (jk). That left time for a walk in the park or talking over late-night coffee. Girls seemed to like those chats a lot.
Some of my dates at college were simply walking with girls.
I don’t know where you get these ludicrous ideas about spending wads of money on dating. Decent ladies aren’t all that concerned about how much money is spent on a date.
Really great post, Dalrock.
My wife was in her late 20s when we got married, but she had never had a serious relationship before and wasn’t very knowledgeable about relationships (she’s very shy). I remember one day we were talking about someone at church who’s about 33-34 and unmarried but would like to be married. She was confused about this, since the woman is nice and a sincere Christian. I told her “You have to understand, generally speaking it’s not that hard for a woman to get married if she wants to. If a woman is reasonably attractive and reaches the age of 30 without marrying, there’s something wrong with her.”
She was surprised about this at first, but then she thought about it and said “You’re right. Every woman I can think of who hadn’t married by 30 has something wrong with her that makes guys not want to marry her.”
I hadn’t thought of it in terms of risk/reward like you outlined here, though. You expressed the principle well — the longer she’s been on the market and didn’t marry, the more suitors she has presumably rejected, and the worse of an investment she becomes.
In that sense it’s a bit like real estate, right? The longer it’s on the market, the more wary buyers become, and the price has to be lowered or improvements have to be made to compensate for this effect. I suppose the money involved in courtship would be the equivalent of the inspection — at first several buyers invest in the inspection since it looks good, but after a while people won’t even get that far into the process because they get a bad impression from the history.
Tom H.
I can boil all this verbiage to a single maxim: Make a good filter and cast a wide net and you will catch your mate without spending too much time, effort, or resources.
Elucidate, please. Describe the process involved in a “good filter” and “wide net”. There are men and women clearly in need of your knowledge.
Details, or admit you don’t know much about the current MMP.
Tom H.
I used to date by taking a gal to a movie OR a dinner–never both unless I had robbed a really wealthy guy (jk). That left time for a walk in the park or talking over late-night coffee. Girls seemed to like those chats a lot.
Did they continuously text while this was going on? Or just make a few updates to FB?
Well done Dal. I think there is an underlying knowledge of the mechanics of this courtship exchange that the feminine imperative is aware of, thus the FI needed to develop social convention to confuse and distract from it.
All of the pieces fit rationally into place as you describe it, but how many married men do you know of who based their decision to get married solely on, or with any of this exchange in mind? Maybe on a subconscious level their gut instinct was doing a cost-to-benefit analysis of courting and pairing off long term with a woman, but more likely he was convinced to marry based on a social convention he internalized or as the result of his feminized conditioning.
Just as with my SMV chart, the feminine imperative can’t afford to have men aware of this courtship exchange, it needs them ignorant of it in order to maintain feminine primacy long enough to optimize hypergamy. And the longer women need to extend this window of optimizing hypergamy, the greater the risk of men becoming more aware of the strategy.
Fucking moronic, Eidolon. Oh, the problem can’t be with the young men who invariably push for sex before marriage. No, it has to be with the woman who rejected them because they are all skanks. Dumbass.
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Looks like Eidolon hit a nerve…
No rings for sluts, and no courting for sluts.
We aren’t courting because they aren’t virgins (or anything resembling wife material whatsoever)
Most chicks today can’t even cook. Why court that? Also, in ‘courting’, it involves two people. The woman wants to get to know the man, but the man wants to get to know the woman too. The man puts forth effort in courting, the woman puts forth efforts too- such as preparing a meal, educating herself, spending time in activities with him so she can show him how she handles herself, just as she is looking for how the man handles himself. Women are failing their end of courtship badly, both with gross laziness and slackery, as well as glaring red flags that are so bad that even a courtship-minded dude has to shift into pushing for sex, because every single girl he runs into disqualifies herself in the first 5 minutes. The lack of “courtship” today can just as well be attributed to incompetence and poor training or instilling of character as it can the data above.
On top of all that, even the most magical chicks in the land are wholly suspect, because we can see that no one is immune to the divorce grinder, not even the best of men… and that among all the ladies who hit ‘detonate’, there are many who were once his ‘dream girl’ (most of them really- guys don’t marry chicks they are lukewarm about.)
So Unicorn-Land of rainbows and twue wuv no longer exists, and often, it was this magical land that women were once savvy enough to dwell in with their man until he put a ring on it.
Now, they can’t understand why we don’t have rose-colored glasses anymore.
Beyond all the valid points Dalrock makes, there is an undercurrent- Men who court women and fall in love with them and marry them, only to have them cheat, abuse verbally, threaten and manipulate, then cheat on him, then destroy his life and take his kids/money/livelihood, etc…
The profound humiliation that occurs here, that many of us have seen, or even experienced first-hand… nobody wants to get played like that. Not just for the humiliation of how everyone in your community will see your profound disgrace… but how it feels inside, the way it makes you want to die, the way it makes you want to kill, the exquisite, inescapable grief…
Courting.
Now only relevant for naive, self-deceiving fools, plummeting towards certain ruin.
Also remember that as college costs have spiraled much faster than inflation, the level of student debt that the typical woman carries in excess of her income potential also adds to the ‘cost’ of marrying her, since woman expect the may to take up servicing of her loans.
I didn’t realize this until a buddy of mine from high school got married. His wife was carrying $50k in college debt at age 30, and the first thing they did was pay off here loan from his savings. Then they divorced five years later. She brought in enough debt to cost almost $1000 per month for as long as the marriage lasted.
Dalrock, one thing is missing from this: a link back to your posting on endless courtship.
Because in the modern MMP, marriage itself – even with Her Day is not enough.
No, she’s gotta be woo, woo, wooed for years after the fact, lest her haaaapiness decline.
Tom H:
I was talking to her about Christian women who attend large churches regularly, so it’s likely that they would be able to find decent husbands if they were trying, didn’t have any severe personality defects, and had reasonable standards. I imagine that atheist party girls would be more likely to have to turn down players and less likely to encounter upstanding men. But to each his own.
So, there is a Book of Pook, a Book of Bonecrackr and the Proverbs of Solomon II.
Last thing I heard there might even be a Book of Thomassi!
Which is, btw very much worth its price.
Where is the Book of Dalrock?
In a way, the Book of Pook will never be surpassed because other people compiled it into a somewhat coherent opus (thats the impact he had), but that does not mean that a Book of Dalrock would not be part of the canon.
Good post but you left off a critical piece of the puzzle as far as the risk assessment which is the sexual experience or slut factor. I don’t know too many women that will not spread her legs for the occasional bad boy as she travels through her early teens to mid-late twenties. As her numbers increase the chances of a successful marriage decrease, dramatically as you’ve shown on your site before. I know that a lot of guys don’t seem to mind her past (even in Christian circles) but you’re a fool if you don’t take that into account and given today’s world I’d say that you can add at least one to two to her number for every year she’s out on her own (and based on personal experience even if they live at home). So that 30 year old has probably at least 10-20 sexual partners before she got her hooks into you. That’s a huge risk factor in her being able to pair bond with you and means that she’s a very big risk as far as blowing up the marriage or freezing you out of the marital bed as soon as possible (right after the two kids have been popped out).
Guys even 10 years ago probably shrugged this risk factor off (especially if she was hot) but I don’t think that’s the case any more. Talking to younger guys they are aware of some of this and there are plenty of old hands that are more than willing to warn them off. Still the sex drive of the average male in his 20’s and 30’s pushes him towards some form of permanent relationship, especially if he’s a Christian since porn as an outlet is not exactly looked on as a viable alternative in most churches.
It’s a horrible environment that we’ve created for these young men as their choices and options just down right suck.
This is a good post and shows a lot of hope for the wife that does not exist. A wife is just a helper. First question is what do you need a wife for. The absolute reason is a uterus to grow your child in. You can rent that and it may not be more expensive than a “wife.” From there it is about what the walking uterus brings to the table. Most likely in the new empowered women of today nothing. The hypergamy, rebellion, emotionalism, childish selfishness, is still there as it always was women and now we can add the laws of misandry to the mix. There is nothing there and todays women are damn proud of it. And so is the churchian church, family law, criminal law and the culture in general, right along with the gushing manginas thinking they are real men cheering this madness on.
Rather than find a wife this generation of men must pressure the system into a shift. Surrogacy, Gandarusa, and the pump and dump. Involuntary childless spinsterhood needs to follow this current voluntary childless spinsterhood based on empowered foolishness.
Had a conversation a few weeks ago in mixed company of a certain or older who were all married to each other. They asked if I was dating. I said no, not really. I was then asked do I take girls out for dinner, I said heck no! It’s been many years since I spent that kind of money on women who haven’t qualified themselves. Been there, done that, got the tshirt. Told these people, it’s not I who has to qualify himself to women, it’s they who have to qualify themselves to me and I won’t do it any other way. Shocked looks on the faces of the women… all of whom were thinking about their daughters. I said hey, this is what feminism has wrought, you can’t expect the incentives to change and the men not respond to that change over time…
Solid work as always.
TFH: “Now, a woman of 30 might have $50,000 or more still to pay down.”
Yes, the “costs” of marriage from the man’s perspective now seem to include assumption of debt w/o the benefit of status or – too often, income and job security that would make that debt a bit easier to stomach. Due to my social circles and hobbies, I find myself around a lot of women in their 30’s, UMC, well-educated, etc. Most of them are what I call 40/40’s. $40k of debt and $40k on annual income. Masters degrees – or the pursuit of – are commonplace. As is the gradual abandonment of careerism that they rode through their 20’s for more soul-searching and fulfilling work like Yoga teacher. I’d reckon that a good slice of profit in most yoga shops comes from extracting huge fees for “Teacher Training” courses aimed at these women. I digress. IF they become 40/40/40, which is when they hit age 40. They are as invisible to marriage minded men as those same men probably were when they were 25 and those women were rolling in the hey of their salad days. They just can’t bring enough to warrant the risk.
Sure, many of these mid 30’s women say they don’t “need” a man, are independent, and aren’t looking for beta-bux, but the devilish details of their designs always reveal themselves. Many exist in some paradoxical world in which they want the beta-provider but can’t stomach actually dating these men for more than a few dates. I used to have moral issues with how some of these men I know “pushed” for sex, but in this market there really is no better way to figure out if she tingles for them – and most are unsuccessful anyhow, as those women are still in some denial and/or delusions that their MA, travel experiences, and sudden desire to marry all make them more attractive. And all the while, nobody, I mean nobody is telling them otherwise.
And these awesome independent women can’t contain their hate for the very men who are most likely to marry them. Just like the link in the post to that awful piece from the pot-wall woman. Its all about some lawyer/accountant guy who is a “catch” but for the fact that she feels the need to destroy him, dissect his comments to assure that any alpha (the classic: he’s a mamma’s boy) is buried under a lack of confidence and other non-starters. I’m sure if she’d banged him, it would be about how is d*ck is small and he doesn’t now how to properly service her orally. For all these mama’s boys, I’ve yet to meet a single woman over 30 who isn’t still getting money, insurance, flights ‘home’, professional connections, clothing, home appliances/decor, and even moving services from their parents. Independence. Its laughable.
I have this link permanently bookmarked because I think it’s one of Roissy’s best kept gem posts:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/the-difficulty-of-gaming-women-by-age-bracket/
The whole post is absolute gold and entirely reflective of Dalrock’s breakdown here but with regard to the 31-34 year old demographic the meat of it is this (emphasis mine):
“Traditional customs existed so as to train women into being something far better than their true natures, so that the majority of men could be duped into getting women fobbed off onto them. Women benefited from traditional customs far more than men, because most men could never see the true nature of women.”
I think the sex drive was the duping of men and the customs are what kept men around.
Once women made sex nearly worthless and they showed that’s all they have…then you could really see their true nature.
@Rollo.
Word. I read that piece a while back. Forgot about how spot-on it was. It is a meat grinder with those women. They are pretty much the thick of online dating too; one more reason to limit that exposure to strategic, surgical strikes, else get caught in the gears of their carousel 2.0 riding.
Just back from the pub (it’s 1am) and by chance what was I saying this evening, that I was not interested in women over the age of twenty three. The guys were laughing, but test me, I said, I’ll get one within a week, for as Rollo correctly says via Heartiste younger women are easier – less expectations. I certainly was not wasting any time on the single blonde bobbed forty year old who was being comforted by her war-pig friend by reason of my lack of interest.
As Dalrock implies, what is the point in courting when even if one is interested, half the woman in their twenties aren’t, which can only mean that if they are not teases then they must be sluts.
We were looking at a photo of a female acquaintance in her graduation gown having now received a Masters in International Property Law. She certainly looks no cuter now than when we first met her in her late twenties and that was ten years ago. What is the point of the degree and what pray is International Property Law?
With what we know about solipisism it makes sense a younger woman would be easier than the 30-34 year olds. She doesn’t have the “life experiences”, worthless degrees, and a paper pushing job to think she is of high value.
Excellent post as always, Dalrock.
This is a very important point for those of us with children to keep in mind. In addition to teaching our sons that it is reasonable to want a young wife (and to refuse marriage with an aging spinster), we also need to help our daughters understand that if marriage is something they think they will want, they must take the search for a husband seriously from a young age. As a resource for interested readers, would you mind if I linked to an old post of mine on that topic?
In support of early marriage: why I hope our daughters will be teen-aged brides.
In 1890, avg age for men to be married was 26, women 22
It reaches a trough down to 1950, 23 & 20
Then rises back up from 1960 to 2003, reaching 27 & 25.
On set of puberty fell throughout that time from 14.5 to 12.5 yrs age.
The combined effect is that the length of fertile and single years stayed relatively constant at ~7yrs. That is, until 1980’s where the length of fertile & single years begins to climb. In 2003 (the last date in the data I have), it hits 12.5yrs.
if they go out and get railed and pounded by a bunch of dudes
we just aren’t going to get stars in our eyes and a bundle of red roses n chocolates.
That poundage and mileage does not inspire investment from a man, beyond getting his turn.
Women can complain that this is wrong of us, or it shouldn’t be
but it is and always will be this way
One point that is missing, the exceptionally narrow focus of women on what is probably 10% or less of men. These men do have more options, my the bery fact they are a minority of men but exist as the only ones “seen” by women. These men naturally will choose the best option for them and often that is courting for sex. When women talk of manning up they want these alphas to settle down with them and stop playing the field. The other 90% of men only exist to be taxed to pay for their SWLP lifestyle. Unless women look paat that 10% monogamy cannot work, even if every alpha “manned up” and married those sluts. In todays culture i would place the chance of either happening around 0%, enjoy the decline.
@ Shameful,
Well, now you know why some high-level feminist “thinkers” talk about reducing the population of men to 10%. The women are quite willing to share the alphas, and removing the betas will encourage the evolution of women into “men without penises” who actually DO run the world, from the dirty work of maintaining the sewers to the glory job of Presidentress of the USA. Well, that’s the theory.
The manosphere might do better to ignore the Jessica Valentis and Amanda Marcottes of the world and start paying attention to the actual theorists teaching fools like Valenti and Marcotte in Academia – because those bitches teaching Women’s Studies believe the same stuff we do. They are just using it for different, more nefarious purposes.
Ever heard of the legend of the Amazon women?
It has endured through time for a reason – because it reflects the reality of the female mind.
I’d gladly court for a long time, but women don’t like me or men like me.
lzozozlzlodalorcksas!!
as my female pastorrz always preachedz, “why buy da butt when da butthext is free?”lzlzlzozoz
Awesome post, Dalrock.
I don’t post on your blog as much as I used to, but I still read all your posts and most of the comments. You really should write a book. Within your cumulative posts you already have enough material to do it.
The main reason I don’t post as much is that I’ve lost my angst. I expatriated to Russia last year. There is no significant welfare state here and feminism hasn’t made much headway. Attracting a husband by 25 is a big deal to most girls here. It’s amazing to see the effort they put into it: last night walking home I saw girls in high heels and above-the-knee skirts walking around when it was snowing.
Dating is a whole different thing here: the cocky asshole game that is required in the west mostly backfires here. Courtship is a little more drawn out, and it isn’t the kiss of death here to take a girl out for dinner. I don’t mind, because I enjoy the process and I know that the longer courtship process here can actually lead to girlfriends and/or sex. I’m not trying to glorify these girls too much: they are manipulative to a degree that makes their western sisters look like tourists. I’m just saying it’s a different world. Women here simply behave more like potential wives when the culture and government incentivize that behavior.
My experience of dating in the SF Bay Area was that you have to invest as little as possible and push for sex quickly. If she doesn’t put out, ditch her. If she does, THEN decide if you want to keep her on as a girlfriend. No other strategy results in either a girlfriend or in sex. In the West, the “long courtship game” only leads to the friendzone.
I’ve noticed another thing: women who spend significant time in the West quickly pick up cultural traits from the west. I’ve met women who pursued degrees abroad in the United States, Ireland, England and Sweden. I’m not sure whether this is because women who seek to study abroad are self-selected to be bitches, or because their experience in the West made them that way: but in either case I’m done with that particular subset of girls.
lzozozooz
awesome post up until the very end!
“Given the large numbers of women not actually interested in marrying at any given time and the opportunity cost of focusing on a non serious candidate, traditional men will do best to greatly limit their courtship efforts and expenditure until around the time of an engagement, and if they are smart they will also insist c.”
that’s like saying
that suppose there is an airline
which crashed 50% of the time
and 75% of crashes are initiated by women co-pilots
so dalrockas is saying
you wanna get on board dat flight ASAP!!
you wannas insist and if they are smart they will also insist on keeping the length of the engagement as short as logistically possible
so u can get up in the air
where she can go kamikakakakkkazeeee
and take your life, liberty, and happiness
as da beranke lawsz
trump da moral biblical lawsz
today in da churchz
courts
and beyondz
as dey have all rjected da
great booksz for menz lzzuzzlzl
lzlzozolzlzllzolz
The Real Peterman :
“I’d gladly court for a long time, but women don’t like me or men like me.”
Why don’t you learn Game? It has helped countless men like you.
You should look into some Game websites to learn what it is about.
Subscribed
My 72 yr old mother is a ‘bible study teacher’ in her Methodist church.
I mentioned the several places in the bible where it says wives are to submit to their husbands.
Her reply?
“No woman should ever submit to a man,the bible is just wrong on that.”
72 years old,51 years of marriage to (mangina)father,and she despises him (and all men) wickedly.
Whats more,so thinks all the elderly women in her coven.
I mean,”bible studies class/church.”
She is the classic NPD/BDP micro-controlling hateful harpy from hell,unless she’s talking to the coven.
I think the wymyns rebellion even in the churches is %100.
Of course,all those unwed mother’s men where ‘abusive no good losers.’
The same men those ‘great women’ choose to have children with,and stayed married to,until the EPL/NCU/BBD came along.
(Eat,pray,fornicate)
(new cock urge)
(bigger better deal)
It always comes down to Briffault’s law,and ladder theory.
%100,no exceptions.
Transactionalism across the board.
Hypergamy justified by society,hamster,and jackboot to the neck of right thinking men everywhere..
Looking fwd to the day BDG decides the bastard children would be better off in LGBT families,and takes those children from the bio-mothers the *exact * same way they took them from bio-dads.
(including the threatpoint of incarceration for objecting to the subhuman treatment)
So, riddle me this…. Do girls really want to be courted or do they just like the potential of being courted? I cruise through match.com and I see attractive under 30 women on there that talk about wanting a nice guy, but then in the next sentence pretty much dare guys to ask them out (can you keep up, can you handle me, etc).
Also, maybe I’m going off topic here, but I think a lot of these girl’s friends are their own worse enemies. Even if they have managed not to sleep around, I wonder how much of this emotional stuff that goes around in the hen house is giving these 20 somethings a warped understanding of reality. Seriously, some of the things I observe would have folks of a different era questioning their sexuality. It seems they would rather go out dancing with each other rather than opening themselves to find men. All these girls opining about not finding a good man when girls night out takes precedent…..
Line from recent fem-pop music:
“You want to love me?
Get in line!”
there is no such thing as courtship or dating when dealing with women in their late teen’s-early 20’s. it’s “hanging out” now. and most women in said age ranges gasp at the thought of marrige, they’re on the “kesha clock”.
party,party, party.
Girl’s are getting mixed encouragements, and their hypergamy doesn’t mix well with that. If a girl just jumped from one to the better, and that was the extent of irrationality, eventually she’d run out rungs on the ladder. But when she’s jumping back and forth between two ladders, down one, up the other, sometimes lower, sometimes higher… unable to choose which ladder she wants to climb up? I feel sorry for such women in a very non-white-knightish way… but I even feel worse for the men who try to love women who can’t decide which way they’re going.
I used to think 25-27 was the time when most women stopped and picked which way they were headed. But now I know women in their late thirties who still can’t pick a ladder to climb. How does one liberate a woman from her schizophrenic hamster?
The two ladders being careerism vs. matrimony, that might not be obvious. They don’t want to settle down, and at the same time they want the kind of guy that’s only worth having for a woman who wants to settle down…
“Courtship”
LOL
They Call Me Tom says:
November 15, 2013 at 11:41 pm
“The two ladders being careerism vs. matrimony, that might not be obvious.” – They Call Me Tom
But even with careerism, there is a degree of servitude. But, hey, hopefully they are enjoying the corporate ladder. Wonder when we’ll start seeing women referenced in the adage where no one says on their death bed that they should have spent more time in the office.
Nothing wrong with wanting to have a career, but I question the notion of today where one should find themselves through their “career.”
“In 1890, avg age for men to be married was 26, women 22
It reaches a trough down to 1950, 23 & 20
Then rises back up from 1960 to 2003, reaching 27 & 25.
On set of puberty fell throughout that time from 14.5 to 12.5 yrs age.”
Whenever people express the hope that their daughters will be teen-aged brides, someone always brings up this so-called “data”.
In the first place, 15 years of age was for the completion, and not the onset, of puberty. This is not even disputed by the MSM, for example: “… the average age of the onset of menstrual periods in girls was 15 in 1900. By the 1990s, this average had dropped to 12 and a half years of age”. Source: www[]medicinenet[]com/puberty/article.htm
And when talking about averages, such as the average age for women to be married, it is important to identify the type of average. If it is the “add them up and divide by the number of women” type, then it is really easy to skew the result by manipulating the sample and tossing in enough old outliers. “How to Lie with Statistics”, by Darrell Huff, is an excellent guide to identifying bullshit.
And then, is it really plausible, especially considering the conditions in the 1800s and earlier, that girls who had become young women according to the dividing line determined by Nature, who through participation in their families had already perfected the skills required to be good wives and mothers, and whose hormones were screaming at them to go fuck and make babies, would be inspired or required to wait for seven or more years?
Or is it more likely that this “data” is feminist fantasy as retroactive history?
If you are interested in this topic, read physical books that were published no later than the early part of the previous century. For example, the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica has a lot of very interesting information. You might discover that young women were married at a much earlier age than is now commonly believed, and that an unmarried sixteen year old was considered to be in danger of becoming a spinster.
I cruise through match.com and I see attractive under 30 women on there that talk about wanting a nice guy, but then in the next sentence pretty much dare guys to ask them out (can you keep up, can you handle me, etc).
Which I always translated as a challenge to chase her. Seems okay to me. As always the “nice guy” part is just profile spam.
I think women in that age range definitely want to be courted in sense they’d like you to lavish them with money and attention. The real question is do they want to be courted with intent. Again, I think they do. But. Rollo’s heartiste link is right on – at that age they’re grossly overestimating men’s interest in the sorts of career and social accomplishment other women find impressive.
I loled! Rebuilding the mound for a second there, Dalrock?
The expanding numbers of women dating for sport does not help with this.
Toronto Woman Uses Online Dating Sites for Free Dinners, Enraging Reddit
Why would a man spend precious time and resources courting a typical filthy whore who has ridden the cock carousel for the last 8-10 years? Really? Why is this so hard to except. I dont want to buy damaged or used merchandise.
Now, if women were less slutty and maintained virginity, I might spend the time and resources to court her because she would be marriage material. There are two kinds of women–the one’s you have sex with and the one’s you marry. I don’t want the mother of my children to be some cock sucking slob….I mean…sexually empowered woman.
@ Robert Slanton
That article is appalling. She does not want to meet Mr. Right.
I’m willing to foot the bill to court Younger women because I’m assuming their intent in dating is to find Mr. Right. Not to use me for free dinner. If a good portion of women start doing this the “alpha” guys will push back with no dinner or dinner after sex. It will only be the nice guys that get screwed out their time and resources. It seems when women respond in this kind of manner to use or abuse men to gain the upper hand – it only hurts the nice good guys – not the asshole. And in the long run women end up hurting themselves by turning guys into assholes.
I once heard my attractive teenage cousin talking about how she was “playing guys” and how “girls can play guys too” but they never win. They just end up hurting the good guys. The guys who are players never get played.
Dalrock you NEED an editor this is just ridiculous. If I was a feminist MSM news journalist I would quote your blog just so I could discount your readers by pointing out their spelling and grammar mistakes. U
I am an apartment landlord’s kid which means that I am not from a disadvantaged family background. My overly controlled and conservative upbringing by my landlord mother, basically means I have somewhat of a low self esteem combined with my access to money, toys, privileges, along with almost 100% zero desire for marriage. I barely even have a desire for sex anymore, most of the time. My only remaining joy in life is some occasional hanky panky here and there along with my obsession for money and anything valuable. In high school I sexually turned on the student girls and even some of my female teachers. I knew they all wanted me naked. Then college and university came and went, along with the collapsing economy, job market. I discovered that after college/university, females were picky, bitchy, and gold digging vampires out to suck you dry, and not below the belt. They want to suck your bank accounts dry. My logical course of action to to say no to all marriage, dating, or relationships for life. I may pal around with women or sleep with them and that is all. No females and divorce lawyers are getting between me and my assets. Marriage is a $1000000 hooker after the divorce lawyers get done with you. It would be cheaper to hire an escort for $200+ per hour. I am an alpha male and yet a beta, gamma, delta male at the same time. It’s confusing.
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The issue is, what value is today’s female bringing to the table that’s worth a man’s long term investment?
-No chastity
-No modesty
-No ability to cook
-No desire to keep the home
-No guarantee of regular sex after marriage
-No respect
-Easy cash out through frivorce
…..so what exactly are we courting them for? THEY should be courting US.
“Women here simply behave more like potential wives when the culture and government incentivize that behavior.”
Women are women and will only behave has wives when they think it is in their interest. Women don’t need to change (it is normal) the society needs to change from this madness we have today.
Reblogged this on House-Wife Sexuality and commented:
Spot on
Seriously heavy post.
“Just shy of half of all late twenties White women have never married, which means five years ago 50% of early twenties White women were a complete and total waste of traditional courtship risk and resources.”
This succinctly describes what most men intrinsically feel but can’t express.
redpillsetmefree
Looks like when you look at it, all woman have is a couple of openings or so to stink up a penis. Modern dating is not dating. Common sense based on reality not the ideal ought to be world says you hook up for sex if no sex next . Yes to sex was it good? Make a choice to call back later and she is a girl friend that has one thing to offer ,,,,sex. (which all there was in the first place) Get a surrogate or adopt to play house. Use some gandarusa to prevent lies and paternity fraud.
The Achilles heal of Christian men is this biblical picture they try to make. She is a HELPER she submits to you. Todays men don’t have the luxury of living in a Christian society. These traditional conservative “good” men are lazy cowardly fools. You all have been drafted into a war you have to make that world for future young men. Too bad you don’t get to play churchian man of morality and respect. No not you, you have to risk damnation and fight.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10441027/Don-Jon-how-porn-is-rewiring-mens-brains.html
Now even porn is ‘rewiring’ man’s brain so that he doesn’t respect and appreciate women…
Yeah it’s “porn” that is doing that.
I am single never married and havent date in years.. It costs to much and requires social skills that I do not have. I also simply refuse to go through all of the bullshit and be put through female hoops just to get turned down. Screw it!
Betas will have no trouble casting a wide net and attracting potential mates. Alphas will have fewer to choose from, but should still be able to create filter that will work well and be able to cast a wide net to attract other alphas. Alpha primes will have the most difficulty, of course, but they should be best able to create an effective filter and cast a very wide net.
Why is this difficult to figure out? You market to the appropriate group in which you are interested. Betas market to betas, alphas to alphas, and alpha-primes to other alpha-primes. Do you have a specific group in mind?
at Tom H.
“I used to date by taking a gal to a movie OR a dinner–never both unless I had robbed a really wealthy guy (jk). That left time for a walk in the park or talking over late-night coffee. Girls seemed to like those chats a lot.”
From anonymous young dumbass: “Did they continuously text while this was going on? Or just make a few updates to FB?
There were no cell phones back then and no FB. You date yourself by your lack of understanding of the context. How does it feel to have both feet in your pie-hole? You apparently are used to dating skanks. How sad.
My dates and I had continuous, interesting conversation. Back then, I didn’t understand the need that women have for flirtation to show your interest, being autistic and lacking experience, so women generally thought that I lacked interest in them or perhaps that I had a libido. They tended to talk to me about their boyfriends, which means that they valued my friendship but I had failed to persuade them of my romantic interest. (Being flirtatious does not necessarily equal pushing for sex.)
Dalrock has unwittingly helped clarify for me a major issue in courtship, which is that the dominance characteristic perhaps is key in courtship.
“can you keep up, can you handle me, etc”
Barf. Does she want a relationship, or does she want a race? Do today’s women even know the difference?
” As always the “nice guy” part is just profile spam.”
She puts that there because she wants to believe it’s true, but of course it isn’t.
Let us also not forget…she is tired of drama, men playing games, and just wants something real.
“Nothing wrong with wanting to have a career, but I question the notion of today where one should find themselves through their “career.”” –Bucho
The curious thing is that feminists only emulate their perception of men, since they don’t actually know men. Sure, I enjoy being good at something, and being gainfully employed at doing it, but it’s through someday being a husband and father that I expect to approach ‘full self-realization’. It’s no wonder so many feminists are unhappy when they try to ‘discover’ themselves at a desk, they’re looking in the wrong place and getting frustrated.
“Now even porn is ‘rewiring’ man’s brain so that he doesn’t respect and appreciate women…” –Feminist Hater
I saw this on the Drudge Report and rolled my eyes at the reasoning of the article. Porn is a symptom not a cause. And counter to what the author suggested, it’s not men failing to appreciate women… it’s women failing to appreciate men that’s made pornography a larger part of our culture, because pornography is one of the few parts of the culture where there’s even an illusion of women appreciating men.
@ eon
You’re off base. My comment is coming from US Census data. A much better primary data resource than an encyclopedia published in a foreign country, which may or may not use samples that correspond to the typical American. Do you really think US Census data is being manipulated post fact for political reasons? Do you have extraordinary evidence for such an extraordinary claim?
https://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/marriage/data/acs/ElliottetalPAA2012figs.pdf
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/tabMS-2.pdf
The ages for puberty I am using is the median. It is well documented by multiple studies that current median age is ~12.5 from the 90’s till now, and still declining.
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/09/19/changing-biology-age-at-first-menstruation/
http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm
Furthermore, the median age is perfect to use since puberty is not an overnight event. It is a multiyear changing process.
“In the first place, 15 years of age was for the completion, and not the onset, of puberty. This is not even disputed by the MSM, for example: “… the average age of the onset of menstrual periods in girls was 15 in 1900. By the 1990s, this average had dropped to 12 and a half years of age”. Source: www[]medicinenet[]com/puberty/article.htm”
Did you read what you quoted? It said onset, not completion, and used first menstruation as the flag for onset. Since puberty is more than just periods.
Yes, I really do believe that girls just entering puberty weren’t married as fast as possible at the ONSET of puberty. We’re talking 1890’s here, its not that long ago. Not 30yrs later feminism and flappers and moxy start to become a popular movement.
Besides, I would expect stable families to let their children mature to full adulthood before giving in marriage. If puberty onset is 14.5yrs old in 1890, then full sexual maturity is probably not complete until 18-19. Then being married away 1-2yrs later seems roughly expected timing.
That is a far cry from today’s structure of starting to date at 14-16 (well into puberty) and marrying at 25, 9 years later, which was the point of Dalrock’s post.
So that gets back to what I was trying to bring out, Dalrock’s data focus’s on the back end. The delaying of marriage and the extension of “courting”. I’m trying to bring out that there is an extension on the front end too. Puberty for boys and girls is starting earlier, and courting is also starting earlier giving a larger growth to the single and courting years than just what the age of marriage might strictly imply.
@HanSolo
“Chivalry is dead and women killed it…” Nah. First, chivalry isn’t entirely dead. Certainly, it is preserved in many of the baby boomers. And second, feminism is the culprit, not necessarily women. Lots of men are feminists, *including those advocating the Playboy Philosophy*. Don’t equate “feminists” with “women”. Lots of feminists aren’t women and lots of women aren’t feminists. There is a decent-size group of women who aren’t toxic, perhaps 20%. There is a much smaller group of men who aren’t toxic, maybe 5-10%. Lots of the men are older and for one reason or another haven’t married.
“There were no cell phones back then and no FB. You date yourself by your lack of understanding of the context.”
So do you pal. The world has changed inconceiveably since then, which is pretty much the whole point of the piece.
Very few girls/young women even drank or smoked anything, getting the Pill or abortions was serious deal, with lots of official/medical interference. Unmarried mothers either got institutionalized, the baby fostered, or the pair of them stopped at home with Mum’n’Dad or Grandma (who would invariably make her life hell for it), end of reproductive career unless the guy could be shotgunned into wedding her (unlikely, no Dna, see?). Being alone with strangers was a no-no (CSI, Dna profiling, cellphone triangulation and all that stuff hadn’t been invented, meant the murders just went unsolved unless the killer was particularly careless), even at Uni gossip by the Others could drive a girl to suicide over rumours. Facebook? The telly was only broadcast from late morning ’til midnight, so as not to keep the serfs awake, which is why music took off in such a big way among the youth.
A decades-long career as an amateur prostitute/hetaera and alcohol-disposal-unit for the top 10%-20% of young men (who then invariably pick better women when they’ve made their bones, so to speak, oh what a tragedy .. lol) was not an option.
Hell, 50%-plus of the prettiest women were still locked up in the Communist Bloc!
Tom H, men not marrying is a good thing over here. Marriage is slavery. I rejoice when men get older and don’t get married!
Rejoice!
Tom H:
Alphas … betas … ”
You don’t know what those words mean, it appears. Probably it would be good for you to learn the definitions before using them and digging yourself into a deeper hole.
Tom H. describes courting in the pre-Disco era:
“I used to date by taking a gal to a movie OR a dinner–never both unless I had robbed a really wealthy guy (jk). That left time for a walk in the park or talking over late-night coffee. Girls seemed to like those chats a lot.”
I asked a logical question…
From anonymous young dumbass: “Did they continuously text while this was going on? Or just make a few updates to FB?
Tom H:
There were no cell phones back then and no FB.
Yes, it is obvious that your “courting” experience is at least 30 years out of date, thanks for the confirmation.
You date yourself by your lack of understanding of the context.
Heh. This approaches my recommended daily allowance of irony.
Tom H., you are like some dotard on a writer’s guild mail list who approaches all issues with Word formatting by going on at great length about the virtues of the IBM Selectric typewriter.
How does it feel to have both feet in your pie-hole? You apparently are used to dating skanks. How sad.
You don’t have a clue what the modern SMP and MMP look like. Probably you don’t know what those three letter terms stand for, and are too proud to ask.
Tell the young folks how to do it, Tom. Tell the young men how to react when their “date” insists on constantly looking at her lap, because that’s where her phone is and she’s continuously updating her BFF’s on the progress of the evening – your table manners, that stray hair on the side of your nose, how you laugh, etc. – via a stream of texts. Tell the young men how to deal with young “ladies” who on the one hand are offended at a man who pushes for sexual intimacy too quickly, but who on the other hand drop any many who does not push for sex like a hot rock.
Say, Tom, got any clues on how a young man who’s a-courting can bring up the question of herpes and debt before he decides to put a ring on it? What’s the average debt load for a 25 year old woman nowadays? How many women between the age of 25 and 35 are carrying herpes? Got any idea?
Feminists like you and your “ladies” are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Your careerist, feminist daughters better get married in the next 2 years (24 months) if you want any grandchildren, by the way.
Ahahhahhhhhaaaaa! “Courtship costs” of $200,000 ozzies!
http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2013/11/marie-lacombe-receives-itemized-expense-account-185-000-rejecting-marriage-proposal/
Of course, the old git won’t see a penny. What a mug (and I’m not just talking about the old slapper he pursued, either).
Oh BTW Opus, I think “International Property Law” is a fancy name for a branch of the estate agent spivvery involved in flogging ex-council blocks in Dalston to Chinese gangsters, in case the Middle Kingdom becomes too hot for them at any point. Not much Law involved, just arse-covering.
But I suspect you knew that anyway.
Tam ye Bam
Ahahhahhhhhaaaaa! “Courtship costs” of $200,000 ozzies!
As a younger man I thought the whole notion of a “dowry” was rubbish…not so, it seems.
Clearly the government should step in, create a department (or bureau, if you wish) of dowries and hire aging spinsters such as Tom H’s daughters to administer. What could possibly go wrong with that scheme, eh?
In order to be courted women must offer something worth being courted for. Today’s women don’t bring anything to the table but sex. Women used to offer men the possibility of having a family but now the kids are hers and and the man only gets the so called privilege of writing a check for child support (aka single mother subsidy) for children that if he’s lucky he will be able to see once or twice a month if at all.
So why should men bother to go shopping when women have nothing worthwhile to sell?
Steve Arterburn is a Christian author, conference speaker, radio host encouraging young Christian girls to:
1. Date lots of guys casually
2. Postpone marriage
3. Postpone having children
He was pleased when he was able to talk his daughter into focusing on school and travel instead of early marriage. From the PR blurb for one of his books:
10 Dates Before I Do
They agreed, reluctantly, but they agreed. Over dinner a few weeks ago my daughter casually told me of a new plan she had devised for her life. Here was her plan: school, travel, job, car, and then no sooner than 26, perhaps think about marriage. The ten dates process helped her think through her long-term plans, which clarified short term decisions — like getting married at 20. If couples would go through this process, partnering decisions will be more wisely considered, marriages will be stronger, and consequent commitments will more likely be kept. Now, that will push down the rate of divorce. This concept can impact marriages as no other book has. It is practical, and it provides a plan to work, rather than a concept to understand. – See more at: http://search.overdrive.com/ti/751009f3-2b7d-4f31-995f-0a907dd64617-425-1-1-1-1/10-dates-before-steve-arterburn-audiobook#sthash.NH58R2ky.dpuf
I can’t find any part of the Bible that defends what Steve Arterburn is teaching here.
“There is a decent-size group of women who aren’t toxic, perhaps 20%.”
Balls.
@freebird,
“My 72 yr old mother is a ‘bible study teacher’ in her Methodist church.
I mentioned the several places in the bible where it says wives are to submit to their husbands.
Her reply?
“No woman should ever submit to a man,the bible is just wrong on that.””
This illustrates a key problem in Western churches.
My mother is a little older than your mom. She was also a Sunday School teacher, Missions Board member, volunteer, etc. She told my wife that decades ago she heard a sermon on submitting to her husband and she consciously rejected it and refused to do it. No one ever called her out on it.
This female rebellion by Christian women is a lot deeper and more prevalent than most Christian leaders realize or believe.
If you’re applying for the job, you might want to look up a little thing called the subjunctive. Unless you might have been a feminist MSM news journalist in the past and can’t remember. Periods and semicolons are handy too.
I suspect that this concept of a “date” is about as traditional as the 3-month-salary engagement ring or the $10,000+ wedding: other modern inventions which are now seen as minimum requirements that have been around forever. My grandfathers weren’t poor, but they didn’t have the kind of money to be taking girls out to dinner and a movie on a regular basis. Most courting was done in each other’s homes, with family present. If you wanted some time alone (and your parents allowed it) you went for a walk. On special occasions, you’d take her to the spring dance or something, maybe buy her a corsage, but there just wasn’t that much money involved in courting.
Also, “courting,” as opposed to dating, was something people didn’t do unless they were ready to marry soon. There was still a risk that you’d court a girl and she’d end up rejecting you, but there was no chance that you’d court a series of girls only to find out that they’d all decided to delay marriage until age 35. Odds were, if your families knew each other, and you’d gotten enough hints from her to ask her to court, there was a good chance your investment wouldn’t be wasted.
Here was her plan: school, travel, job, car, and then no sooner than 26, perhaps think about marriage.
This is the UMC life plan, and it generally does lead to lower divorce rates. However, there are a variety of reasons for that, not just having the walkabout 20s to “get it out of your system” so that you have “no regrets”.
In my experience, the women I’ve seen that tend to avoid Frivorce and have lots of babies come from an Evangelical Conservative background; there is still a high degree of shame associated with pre-marital sex, out of wedlock births, and divorce in that group. Obviously not 100% true, and most of them aren’t virgins before marriage, but still, relatively low N counts.
What other groups, if any, have you seen women raised with these values?
Why is this difficult to figure out? You market to the appropriate group in which you are interested. Betas market to betas, alphas to alphas, and alpha-primes to other alpha-primes. Do you have a specific group in mind?
Eh, there are no female betas or alphas. Those are shorthands for male dominance hierarchy. There is no female equivalent.
This pairs well with the newest Just Four Guys post. Men always willing to spend to court are the “saints”(Nice guys/suckers). Men unwilling to spend to court are the “free riders.” All the others are the moralists in the middle, who would prefer an equitable give and take, but are increasingly tired of getting the short end of the stick.
“What other groups, if any, have you seen women raised with these values?”
Traditionalist Catholics. Mennonites. Hutterites. Amish.
I have no idea what Tom H. is talking about with this “alpha-prime” stuff, but I suspect he doesn’t either. Whatever it is, it doesn’t apply. If beta males had “no trouble casting a wide net and attracting potential mates,” Game sites wouldn’t exist and the manosphere wouldn’t be growing as it is.
Related to the OP, here’s a recent letter from the American advice column, ‘Dear Abby’:
Wife’s ‘experience’ leaves him frustrated
All the others are the moralists in the middle, who would prefer an equitable give and take, but are increasingly tired of getting the short end of the stick.
HAH. Patrick used the word ‘equitable’ in a sentence about women. I’m ’bout to bust a kidney laughing. The Red Pill frees us from such quaint notions, like that whole females-understand-equity thing.
“What other groups, if any, have you seen women raised with these values?”
Traditionalist Catholics. Mennonites. Hutterites. Amish.
Hmmm. Haven’t had much real life exposure to any of those groups.
Guess a lot of guys have never read Brave New World. Women have dominance hierarchies just like men. Alpha Primes produce ideas that move societies or they are power individuals that manage alphas and move societies.
The single manosphere is extremely toxic now, so all this talk of gaming is uninteresting. Manskanks are boring. They should be eliminated from the gene pool because of the damage they do to the herd. Same with women skanks. Yeah, it might cause a considerable dip in the youth population, but that would be better for the herd in the long run as it would considerably improve the chance of finding marriageable prospects.
Divorce predation needs to be minimized by making divorce more difficult for both partners.
Divorce law needs to return to considering fidelity important to society.
Custody law needs to change to become more equitable.
Marriageability Filter: Send me references of people you dated who will vouch for your integrity. I need at least four references from the last four weeks. How much do you expect a guy/gal to spend on you? Are you willing to go dutch? What is your religion? How many kids do you want? Are you willing to move to where I live? If you are divorced, tell me about your situation, including any kids you have. How many marriages have you had? Tell me how many sexual partners you have had in the last year. [Basically, ask the show-stopping questions up front to eliminate the bad prospects so that you don’t spend a lot of money on courtship.]
You can cast a wide net on most dating sites.
Remember that Sir Galahad was believed to be a virgin and it wasn’t considered embarrassing to him? Remember that all the ladies swooned over him? Those were better days (when people actually believed in male chastity). Now almost all men are imprinted by the pathological predatory teenage boy culture and a whole lot never realize it.
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Marriageability Filter: Send me references of people you dated who will vouch for your integrity. I need at least four references from the last four weeks.
LL – that’s assuming they’ve had four dates in the last four weeks!
Sir Galahad is a fictional character.
Those Romance romances were devised as chick-porn for upper-class dweebs and Alpha mares, in an age where any man outside the clergy was sternly required by his overlord to be a brutal, hands-on, soulless killer and indeed predator when the occasion demanded. Or else.
LL = LOL…
“Marriageability Filter” – over here, the foreigners who still carry on like that refer to it as an Arranged Marriage. Let ma and pa (and the innumerable aunties) take the strain. Bizarre prehistoric peasanty carry-on. Not for me.
“There is a decent-size group of women who aren’t toxic, perhaps 20%. There is a much smaller group of men who aren’t toxic, maybe 5-10%.”
More women than men who aren’t toxic. That’s a new one.
It’s interesting that men feel they have to justify being bothered by the idea of a wife’s past sexual escapades. He can’t just say it infuriates him to think of his wife spreading her legs for numerous men. No, it has to be about the lie, as if he wouldn’t care how many men had had her if she’d just told him the truth from the start.
The lie is bad, yes. But that’s not what’s really bothering him; he doesn’t suddenly think she’s going to lie to him about future matters. He just hates the idea of those other men with her, period.
You’ll need one, for the wide asses it’ll pull in.
Ok, you’re just messing with us now, right?
Cail Corishev says: November 16, 2013 at 1:40 pm
It’s interesting that men feel they have to justify being bothered by the idea of a wife’s past sexual escapades. He can’t just say it infuriates him to think of his wife spreading her legs for numerous men.
I beg to differ – he stated ” (If I had known this, I would not have married her.)” and feeling trapped in his marriage to a woman he never would’ve married in the first place.
Her bad behavior in the past led to him feeling trapped, that she lied is an new and ongoing challenge with respect to whether he can ever believe what she says in the future.
Good point, I missed that he said that about not marrying her if he’d known. But I think that makes my point: it’s not really the lie that bothers him — although the lie itself is bad, as I said — it’s the sex. Otherwise, why wouldn’t he have married her if she’d been honest? But guys think they aren’t allowed to be bothered by a woman’s previous experience, so they focus on her attempts to hide it.
DEAR ABBY: This is my wife’s second marriage. When we were dating, she led me to believe that I was the second sexual partner she had ever had. Shortly after our wedding, I found out through some mutual acquaintances she had attended college with that she had been very promiscuous during her college years and that the number of men she has been with is far greater than two.
I feel lied to and trapped in my marriage. (If I had known this, I would not have married her.) She knows I know. She dismissed it by saying the past doesn’t matter, but what she fails to recognize is that it matters to me. I can’t help but wonder if she has lied to me about something this important, what else will she lie to me about?
What do I do?
– Confounded in the South
What you do is take the Red Pill son, and accept some things:
1) Women lie about their N count because they know innately that being a slut is shameful
2) Women lie & manipulate & do whatever they have to do to secure a man’s resources without remorse or apology(and religious ones have a Come to Jesus moment later to wipe it all away)
3) A woman is only there to secure your resources; she never has, and never will, give a damn about what you want or need
4) Women will bargain their short window of SMV for a lifetime of payments from you with a sense of brazen entitlement, and will call you a misogynist for not eagerly agreeing to their terms
5) NEVER ask a woman for advice about anything, but ESPECIALLY relationships. Do you think she, or the beta white knighters in the comment thread are going to see it from your perspective?
…The Red Pill will set you free.
>Remember that Sir Galahad was believed to be a virgin and it wasn’t considered embarrassing to him?
Remember that Sir Galahad was a one-man army who could kill you and all your relatives if you looked at him disrespectfully.
In Asia, there are some seriously psycho hand-to-hand ass-kickers who are rumored to be virgins. No one can actually tease them about this, because everyone who gets in their faces gets his ass kicked.
I’m sure I’ll be denounced as a NAWALTer for pointing out the obvious, but I’m going to do it anyway. This is some very deep red pill stuff, and I don’t expect many to agree with it.
They sure do, and they do. Unfortunately, most of us don’t know how deep the rabbit hole goes (little metaphor there, hope you enjoyed it). Dick count is relevant, but not in the simplistic way most men assume.
For example: who would you find more interesting as a dating/relationship/marriage partner:
a. the 24-year old woman with a count of ten, who has been in a faithful and monogamous pairing for the last five years with one man (the other nine dicks she saw beforehand). Her boyfriend got bored and moved to New Jersey, so now she’s single again. She works in a clerical job and spends most of her free time reading Jane Austen. At night, she takes a chemistry class at the local community college.
b. the 24-year old woman with a dick count of seven. She was a virgin until last month, when she got paroled from the mental institute where she’s lived since age 15. Immediately after her release, she started hitting the clubs and getting banged out. The last three dicks came during a filmed gangbang she did, last night, and which is now in the process of being posted to various amateur porn sites. She’s currently looking for work as a stripper or escort, while she continues to “recover” from all her personality problems.
Again, numerically, the purists will say that you’ll have a much easier time wifing up woman b, as she has enjoyed 30 percent less lotsa cockas than woman a. I’ll leave that for the reader to ponder.
I realize that many here take the position that all women are sluts and etc., and that’s fine; but it doesn’t change the fact that some women are at least *more* slutty than others. This is NAWALT, but it’s true.
Personally, I think marriage is a very foolish risk to take in this society, but I admire you brothers who want to jump off that cliff. If you’re going to get married, you owe it to yourself (not to mention your children and grandchildren of the future) to find the very best candidate for being a decent, sane and normal partner that you can find.
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Wow, the young male retard population has really skyrocketed! Maybe this is a symptom of a widespread outbreak of syphilis affecting the brains? People mocking Sir Galahad and whether it’s a symptom of a sick society that they disparage male virginity?
You’ll know if she’s a virgin. Been there, done that.
You may have to game your wife from time to time. Been there, done that.
@redpillsetmefree
1) Men lie about their N count because they know innately that they may have given their mates an STD from all their sex partners and caused their mate’s infertility.
2) Men lie & manipulate & do whatever they have to do to secure sex without remorse or apology(and religious ones have a Come to Jesus moment later to wipe it all away)
3) A man is only there to secure your body; he never has, and never will, give a damn about what you want or need
4) Men will promise their love for five and out sex and will call you a misandrist for not eagerly agreeing to their terms
5) NEVER ask a man for advice about anything, but ESPECIALLY relationships. Do you think he, is going to see it from your perspective?
It’s just too easy. No one has a brain, it seems.
Cail Corishev says: November 16, 2013 at 2:14 pm
Good point, I missed that he said that about not marrying her if he’d known. But I think that makes my point: it’s not really the lie that bothers him — although the lie itself is bad, as I said — it’s the sex. Otherwise, why wouldn’t he have married her if she’d been honest? But guys think they aren’t allowed to be bothered by a woman’s previous experience, so they focus on her attempts to hide it.
I’m scratching my head here – if the writer focused on her history as well as the lie, how do you think he expressed his opinion / feelings?
Going through the history of this:
1) He asked a question and was given a deceitful answer that he believed
2) He now feels trapped by a commitment he made under false pretenses
3) He can’t change her history
4) He’s concerned about the future – what do I do with a woman I wouldn’t have married, who doesn’t care that she lied about something important to me, and thus can’t be trusted?
Given the abundance of sluts out there, I’m not sure I’d react differently, because if I was upset at woman being promiscuous, I’d never be happy. It’s one of those sad things that “just is.”
Now, if the woman’d had an affair after she’d married the writer, I’d expect him to express a lot more anger about her sexual behavior over and above the lies that come with the affair because the affair would be the greater of the two offences.
gads…my writing is bad today – here’s another correction:
I’m scratching my head here – if the writer focused on her
history as well as the lie, how do you think he would
expressed his opinion / feelings?
I expanded my answer here: http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/this-is-why-im-a-red-pill-pusher/
@Tom H
1) Men lie about their N count because they know innately that they may have given their mates an STD from all their sex partners and caused their mate’s infertility.
….How would one innately know that an STD has been passed? How do you assume that all men have high N counts(“all their sex partners?”) or STDs? Where are the studies that link male to female STD transference with fertility?
2) Men lie & manipulate & do whatever they have to do to secure sex without remorse or apology(and religious ones have a Come to Jesus moment later to wipe it all away)
Men do not lie about wanting sex. When has that EVER happened? Women over the age of 13 know that that’s the only reason that a guy is there, so where, exactly, is the manipulation? All the women that are surprised that a man wants to get in your pants, raise your hand.
3) A man is only there to secure your body; he never has, and never will, give a damn about what you want or need
He then, of course, if that were true, would then immediately jettison said body after it’s lost its youthfulness. Oh wait, no we don’t. We SHOULD….but we don’t. 70% of divorces, initiated by women.
4) Men will promise their love for five and out sex and will call you a misandrist for not eagerly agreeing to their terms
And exactly which men get to set the terms for the sex in the relationship? Even with full game on, it’s still up to her.
5) NEVER ask a man for advice about anything, but ESPECIALLY relationships. Do you think he, is going to see it from your perspective?
Men don’t give sound advice?
Then what are you doing in the Manosphere?
Is Tom H our new resident tradcon pimping the same failed program as the rest?
If Tom H feels obligated to meet someone in person, let me know when you are in the Raleigh area. I’ll be you huckelberry.
You gotta love Tom H’s comments on this thread and the other. his “oh, if you’re interested, I have two aging career women daughters who are 30 year old virgin alpha females, so you’d better have your game on.”
LMAO! Oh man, Tom, your daughters probably have just toooo much girl moxie for guys here, you out did us all. I think any guy in his thirties would rather go find a 23 year old hottie who isn’t an “alpha female” aka “irritating bitch.”
“Alpha females” make for amusing characters in movies, etc, and sometimes to look at from a distance. But no sane man will waste his time trying to date one of those!
Courtship. Not in the west anymore. Here is a story that will make some of your divorced male readers feel better. Man buys house next to ex-wife(who lives with the lover she had while married) and erects 12 foot high middle finger statue.
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23985382/man-buys-the-house-next-to-ex-wife-erects-giant-middle-finger-statue#ixzz2kpWPZTKU
Tom H, despite what you’ve read in fictional novels (written during the forties when sexual relations were still civilized, where it’s forgivable that they didn’t predict the full extent of the unleashed female id), women do not have a hierarchy; hierarchy is a male concept, and during healthy times, a woman’s status is directly tied to the man who’s willing to make her a wife.
This is generally tied to looks (a general ranking of women can be performed), but ultimately it’s the man’s decision that makes her the Alpha Female. If the Quarterback (Apex Alpha) marries a woman who’s a 9, but intelligent, as opposed to the ditzy 10 cheerleader, the 9 is now the Alpha Female who decides what sorts of fashions are in style.
“Why is this difficult to figure out? You market to the appropriate group in which you are interested. Betas market to betas, alphas to alphas, and alpha-primes to other alpha-primes. Do you have a specific group in mind?”
That’s not how it works. All of the women – the 10s down to the 3s – seek out the Alphas out of the men – the 8s, 9s, and 10s. The higher up a woman is the greater a commitment she can achieve, but even the 3s get an occasional dumpster dive, and their expectations are now completely out of whack with what they can reasonably expect to achieve.
A woman’s SMV is whomever is willing to give her a roll in a hay.
A woman’s MMV is whomever is willing to commit.
They often confuse one for the other, because of fools like you who blame premarital sex on “men pushing for it.” No, Tom, women – in some ways – crave sex even more than men do. A guy can watch porn, jerk off, and he’s relatively satisfied. A woman who isn’t being regularly doused in a man’s hormones starts to go nuts, and stimulation from an electronic device just doesn’t satisfy her in the same way. A 21 year old female body is screaming out its need to get pregnant, and thanks to empowerment and promiscuity fewer and fewer men can give her a satisfying orgasm.
Women are the ones behind the drive to sluttiness, as well as the ones avoiding marriage. Blaming it on the men will only exacerbate this.
And as for your daughters? They should be thankful that any men are approaching them. I’m 32, and I wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot poll.
all this long of a post in extensive detail when all we need is one sentence:
“men are no longer courting because women are no longer worth it!”
Perhaps Tom H. can only focus on one thing at a time. I’ll repeat the previous questions he is avoiding:
Tell the young folks how to do it, Tom. Tell the young men how to react when their “date” insists on constantly looking at her lap, because that’s where her phone is and she’s continuously updating her BFF’s on the progress of the evening – your table manners, that stray hair on the side of your nose, how you laugh, etc. – via a stream of texts. Tell the young men how to deal with young “ladies” who on the one hand are offended at a man who pushes for sexual intimacy too quickly, but who on the other hand drop any many who does not push for sex like a hot rock.
Say, Tom, got any clues on how a young man who’s a-courting can bring up the question of herpes and debt before he decides to put a ring on it? What’s the average debt load for a 25 year old woman nowadays? How many women between the age of 25 and 35 are carrying herpes? Got any idea?
Maybe you could try answering this time around?
Can we ban T(r)o(ll)m H yet? Surely “his” use as an object lesson is coming to an end.
Tom H.
You’ll know if she’s a virgin. Been there, done that.
Is this the autism showing, or lack of experience? One cannot tell, and it does not matter; suffice that Tom is displaying more than a bit of ignorance.
In the modern world, the vast majority of women over 25 are not virginal. Most of the women over 20 aren’t, unless they are living with their parents, and even then…not necessarily. Any woman in college who doesn’t live with her parents is all but certain to give it up long before graduation – the notion of virginity as a burden that young women should shed ASAP has been around on college campuses since the 80’s, and probably was common in the 70’s & late 60’s.
Sorry that it isn’t 1980 anymore, Tom. Update your calendar to the proper century, for a start.
8oxer, you may have moved the goal posts a bit with that observation. When men discuss a woman’s N, there is a premise – usually unspoken – along the lines of “all other things being equal”. So all other things being equal, a 25 year old woman with an N of 3 is a better marriage bet than a woman of the same age and outlook with an N of 10.
Sure, all things are never equal. We all know that, or ought to know it. But they may be close enough to equal to enable a man to hazard at least a semi-educated guess, surely, and N is at least quantifiable, along with the # of STD’s she’s ever contracted and her student debt.
There are intangibles, such as her parents. A man should strive to meet a woman’s mother prior to committing, if for no other reason than to get a glimpse of what she may look like and act like in the years to come. Those who subscribe to the blank slate theory of human nature need not concern themselves with this. However, such fools are surely in for many surprises in their lives.
Oh, and…..better be sure she’s gonna say ‘yes:’
@ Drew
“You’re off base. My comment is coming from US Census data. A much better primary data resource than an encyclopedia published in a foreign country, which may or may not use samples that correspond to the typical American.”
Why are you assuming that I am limiting myself to the United States, when Dalrock’s readership is much wider?
I just used the Encyclopedia Britannica as an example of a relevant original document that is usually available in large metropolitan libraries, as well as in research libraries. Since most of the people in the United States, at that time, were from England and the rest of Europe, it is reasonable to expect that their customs would be continued. Are you aware that other relevant books were published even more than a hundred years ago, and even in the United States?
My point was to use documents that were published back then, instead of relying on documents that talk about the supposed situation back then, but which were published only recently.
“Do you really think US Census data is being manipulated post fact for political reasons?”
I didn’t think anything, specifically, since you didn’t provide your source. Beyond that, I will just leave your statement here so that others may marvel at it.
“The ages for puberty I am using is the median. It is well documented by multiple studies that current median age is ~12.5 from the 90′s till now, and still declining.”
I never disputed that the age is declining.
“Furthermore, the median age is perfect to use since puberty is not an overnight event. It is a multiyear changing process.”
Median just means that half of the girls completed puberty before that age and half completed it after that age. What does that have to do with the fact that puberty is a several year process?.
“Did you read what you quoted? It said onset, not completion, and used first menstruation as the flag for onset. Since puberty is more than just periods.”
Yes, I read what I quoted. Did you? Do you have any actual understanding of female biology? What I quoted was this: … the average age of the onset of menstrual periods in girls was 15 in 1900. By the 1990s, this average had dropped to 12 and a half years of age.
Puberty involves a series of physical stages or steps that lead to the achievement of fertility.
You were talking about the onset of puberty, which is the start of these physical stages.
What I quoted was talking about the onset of menstruation, which is the achievement of fertility.
“Yes, I really do believe that girls just entering puberty weren’t married as fast as possible at the ONSET of puberty. We’re talking 1890′s here, its not that long ago. Not 30yrs later feminism and flappers and moxy start to become a popular movement. Besides, I would expect stable families to let their children mature to full adulthood before giving in marriage. If puberty onset is 14.5yrs old in 1890, then full sexual maturity is probably not complete until 18-19. Then being married away 1-2yrs later seems roughly expected timing.”
Since you seem to have no idea about the stages of puberty or their timing, or even the significance of the onset of menstruation (this is when young women can start having babies), perhaps you should not presume to teach.
Once a girl completes puberty, she has also acquired the mental capacity and become mature enough to care for the children that she can now bear, and this is also the age at which adults begin entrusting young women to babysit and care for infants, alone.
Back then, the completion of puberty (usually just called “puberty”) was considered to be the start of adulthood, and young men and women were expected to, and did, start making a significant positive contribution. The present delayed adolescence that supposedly should extend into a “child’s” twenties is a relatively recent manipulation.
To continue my previous point, girls mature much faster than boys, because when they achieve fertility and become young women, they must be able to care for the children that they can now bear.
In contrast, although their maturity will ultimately far exceed that of women, young men in their teens frequently lack the capacity to do anything better than pump-n-dump, and it is only in their twenties that they acquire the ability to lead, nurture and protect a young woman.
This article has interesting information along these lines: http://fedrz.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/woman-the-most-responsible-teenager-in-the-house/
This is why, in saner times, young women in their teens were often married to young men in their twenties.
Any one who relies solely on data produce by the US government is a fool
Michael, excellent points!
Anonymous Coward: “Tell the young men how to react when their “date” insists on constantly looking at her lap, because that’s where her phone is ” Get up and leave with no explanation. Fuck her, figuratively speaking.
“In the modern world, the vast majority of women over 25 are not virginal.” I don’t give a shit about skanks or manskanks. Fuck em. They are a danger to the herd and ought to be eliminated.
“Tell the young men how to deal with young “ladies” who on the one hand are offended at a man who pushes for sexual intimacy too quickly, but who on the other hand drop any man who does not push for sex like a hot rock.” [edited for clarity]
Handle this in the filter–answer each other’s showstopper questions before you spend any money. Agree to answer hers if she answers yours.
Where have all the brains gone????
Why are you using the word, courtship when most people use the word dating? Courtship is strictly reserved for those who are courting, otherwise you’re dating with the possibility of marriage, or hooking up when the presumption marriage is not forthcoming. Oh well. What’s the use of going on when the terms are misused.
I am 39 years old and the only women I find attractive are between 19-24 years old. I am not settling. I had my “love goggles” for the ex-wife because I had her when she was seventeen.
Without the ” love goggles” a thirty five year old woman is well, a hag.
If Tom H feels obligated to meet someone in person, let me know when you are in the Raleigh area. I’ll be you huckelberry. – Ton
Well, it looks like I’m not the only one in Raleigh who is disgruntled with the wimmenz here….
Tom H.
Anonymous Coward: “Tell the young men how to react when their “date” insists on constantly looking at her lap, because that’s where her phone is ” Get up and leave with no explanation. Fuck her, figuratively speaking.
Fine by me, but this contradicts your previous advice. Just so you realize that.
HINT: It’s not 1980 anymore.
“In the modern world, the vast majority of women over 25 are not virginal.” I don’t give a shit about skanks or manskanks. Fuck em. They are a danger to the herd and ought to be eliminated.
Herd? Did you not claim that humans are not animals, and yet now you refer to humans as animals? Could you please pick a position and stick to it? Or is that too much trouble?
“Tell the young men how to deal with young “ladies” who on the one hand are offended at a man who pushes for sexual intimacy too quickly, but who on the other hand drop any man who does not push for sex like a hot rock.” [edited for clarity]
Handle this in the filter–answer each other’s showstopper questions before you spend any money. Agree to answer hers if she answers yours.
Interesting, so it is your assertion that women never lie? Fascinating.
Where have all the brains gone????
Oh, the irony…coming from a feminist, this is hilarious.
Dalrock,
Great post and comments. One of the best!
@ Greenlander
Welcome back and keep us posted! John Lennon had great things to say about Russian girls as well.
Dear Tom:
Your daughters are post-30 years old. They are over the hill and have zero value in the marketplace. No self-respecting man (and certainly no alpha male) is going to forego all the better options to wife up a couple of women who are way over the hill. The only thing they are good for, in the eyes of men, is sex — which is why they are dumped as soon as they say no.
Be that as it may, if one or both is actually a physician, as you claim, then I hope she/they do the best possible job they can in that demanding career. I respect women who work hard and make something of themselves — particularly in contrast to the women who waste society’s resources to get advanced educations, only to abandon them when baby rabies sets in, and ride the marriage 2.0 train to laziness on the alimony and child support track.
Your daughters will never be successful wives or mothers… they missed that boat and it will never return; but, they can be good at their careers, which is something in its own right. They ought to aspire to this, as it is their only option.
Regards, Boxer
Seeing that there’s a troll going by Tom on this thread… I just want to make sure it’s clear that that Tom is not this Tom.
I haven’t made it to the end yet, and I’m already skipping over Tom H’s comments. No offence meant, I just don’t have time to waste on poor advice and baseless accusations. If a blogger has something worth while to say even half the time, I will usually read. But when it drops below 90%, I usually have to pass. What I’m wondering is a) is Tom H really male? (not meant as a slam) and b) why do these know it all bad advice types always show up at seemingly regular intervals?
On a personal note It really sucks for me that TradCon has come to stand for so much that I am against. I guess that it was inevitable.
Dear Tom:
This is very interesting, and I’d like you to expound upon it, if you’re able.
Bear in mind that I’m not the dude you were originally addressing. My opinions are my own, and I’m sure they’re not shared by anyone else here.
Tom H writes (to the Dalrock blog author, about his daughters)…
When your daughter was admitted to medical school, she took a valuable seat that a man could have taken. Our society subsidized your daughter’s education to an astonishing degree. I’d argue that the subsidies she received could never be quantified properly. After all, how can you place a value on such an education?
What you are proposing is that your daughter, who has been given much, not repay our society’s trust in her. You selfishly want her to quit her job and get married. When this happens, she will be replaced, probably by some physician who went to school in India or the Caribbean. Granted, I’m sure there are many fine doctors educated elsewhere, but the odds are that they are not educated to the level which we (the taxpayers and productive citizens) have educated your daughter.
Your selfishness is astonishing. You claim to be a “conservative”, and then in the same breath you announce your desire to have your family live as parasites on the ass of this country, and not repay this society its heavy investment in your children.
I think it’s fortunate that your daughter has not taken you seriously. She seems like a bright woman. Like us, she surely sees your own foolishness and doesn’t have any intention of taking your poisonous bad advice.
I hope your daughter does well in her profession. It’s too late for her to get married or have kids. She is already an “old maid”, but she is in a position to make a positive contribution to society all the same. Here’s hoping that she continues to ignore your idiotic, suicidal, and selfish “advice”.
Regards, Boxer
@Twenty
I’m usually a little slower on the trigger than this, but I haven’t seen someone this combative with everyone in a good while. I think he has even challenged one commenter to some sort of a duel.
Then there’s this: http://www.dailystar.co.uk/real-life/350740/Jealous-woman-makes-partner-take-a-LIE-DETECTOR-test-every-time-he-leaves-the-house
What you are proposing is that your daughter, who has been given much, not repay our society’s trust in her. You selfishly want her to quit her job and get married.
Marriage and working are not incompatible. For many lower-income people, it’s almost mandatory now that partner’s incomes could be factored into mortgage payments.
And I suppose this is also related to the topic: http://simulacral-legendarium.blogspot.ca/2013/10/double-standards-and-changing-standards.html
I think this assumes that young men are racing to the altar while women want to take their time. I’m not so sure about that. I think young men are prolonging courtship too. These days I think the kids realize that it’s more expensive to get out of a marriage than it is to date, and they want to be REALLY SURE before they make that commitment. This article reads like it was written by someone my age who doesn’t think like a present day 20-30 something. This applies to our generation but not theirs. They’re motivated differently now. Today they tend to share the cost of dating or do things together that we would call just “hanging out”. A lot of them still live at home so they have the money to spend on dating since they don’t have to pay rent. My nephews and my friends’ kids who are in their mid to late 20s are all like this. Their parents are making it possible for them to prolong the dating phase indefinitely. Why have to struggle to put a roof over your head when you can just stay home for free and date forever? That’s the way these kids think now, sorry to say. They don’t feel any great urgency to grow up, become independent and support themselves. A product of the recession plus the millennial entitlement generation, sorry to say.
@Anon Guy
Nothing special here, but I just spent 100 Bucks on a regular date night!
Twice a week it’s two hundred bucks!!!!
Not to mention gas, parking, blah other little incidentals!
So maybe there is an economic factor here at play as well?
The recession hit young men the hardest, thus it seems reasonable to conclude that overall expenditures on courting, over the population, would decrease (and disproportionally, as well).
Also relevant (explaining how the recession lowers marriage rates):
Gould, Eric D., and M. Daniele Paserman. “Waiting for Mr. Right: rising inequality and declining marriage rates.” Journal of Urban Economics 53.2 (2003): 257-281.
Sobotka, Tomáš, Vegard Skirbekk, and Dimiter Philipov. “Economic recession and fertility in the developed world.” Population and Development Review 37.2 (2011): 267-306.
Tom H is a woman?
Where is MarcusD and his semantic analysis?
57% for 50-65 years old
Borderline male (the software I use calls it “weak male”)
The “feminism score” is high.
83.2% negative sentiment.
52% upset mood (interesting…).
He talks about women more than men (26.8% vs. 21.2%). Parents (17.8%). Health (13.1%).
Value system analysis: Exploitive (39.3 %); Absolutistic (34.6 %); Tribalistic (10.6 %); Relativistic (6.3 %).
Major leaning to left side of Wilber’s Quadrant Model.
Myers-Briggs: ISTJ
Jimbo Jimmy asks :
Why are you using the word, courtship when most people use the word dating?
I think D used the courtship word to indicate what many women are nostalgic for – ie spending a lot of his time, energy and money to show her that he is worthy of her love and committment and in extreme cases, even risking his life and limb to prove his “worthiness”, without any similar reciprocity from her end. That was traditional courtship. Dating these days simply means “hanging out”, or simply enjoying the benefits of a relationship without the responsibilities of one.
Women wished to be “liberated”. I guess they haven’t heard of the old curse “May you get what you wish for”.
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@ Bee, regarding the 10 different dates. I’d be interested to see what different types of dates they are. I know he gave a few examples. It could work in a controlled environment, but this sounds like it may provide the framework for serial dating. So I go on a date with a girl and then it turns out that she was just going out with me on the date to reinforce her feelings for her boyfriend. Would that be communicated at the onset of the date? If it were then why would I want to go along with it, unless I thought I could seriously game her. Would she be willing to repeat that 10 times? How would she like it if the tables were turned? Hmm….
“If Tom H feels obligated to meet someone in person, let me know when you are in the Raleigh area. I’ll be you huckelberry.” – Ton
Raleigh, eh? We might be neighbors! If Tom H takes you up on your offer, maybe you can take him down to Glenwood South where ya’ll can tease the wimmenz. 🙂
Men are withdrawing from marriage courtship.
But not courtship.
Forget about arbitrary numbers and mitigating factors regarding notch count.
1 before marriage is too many, that’s how you know.
If she’s been fornicating she is only good for pleasure and untrustworthy.
Of course you can’t enjoy recreational sex because you’re Christians.
So there you are.
Happily Tom H has linked direct to his FB page and we can see the charming photo of his family with him surrounded by his wife, and his two 30 year old virgin daughters. The Virgins are not bad looking, it has to be said – in an Ashwaira Rai, sort of way. As to virginal I’ll take his word as to that, I’m so trusting.
From his FB Likes, Tom H seems to be the Trad Con sort – and with a taste for aging English Rockers. Who’d have thought it.
Great article. I suppose this is one of the primary reasons why men are looking overseas for marriage: there is a higher percentage of marriage-minded women in the East than in the West. Many (not all) Women are looking for marriage and children in their early 20’s.
Hey Gentlemen!
I am surprised no-one is taking up Tom H on his *not so secret* offer. Here is a loving father ‘advertising’ his daughters to you worthy men. (This by inference suggests that Tom H thinks highly of the Manosphere, actually – please correct me if I am wrong, Tom H).
Can no-one else see the underscore here?
Why are you gentlemen so intent on running down Tom H when in fact he and his daughters represent something good (for a change) about the SMP?
Here is a father who is (lovingly) taking control of his daughters’ lives. They are virgins (at least he attests to that). They have jobs (i.e. they are not lazy women). And…most importantly, they have their father in their lives, obviously. No red flags so far.
And…in Tom H’s case, another bonus point: His own wife is foreign-born, which means that the girls’ mother would have certain values which may be missing in a modern ‘all-American’ household, but which (I would hope) have been successfully passed on to the girls.
If I were a ‘Red Pill’ man seeking marriage (despite all the odds, heh), I would be beating a track to Tom H’s door, if for nothing, just so I could ‘check the girls out’…
What makes me curious (stupefied, in fact, I have to admit, gentlemen :-), is why are some of you (who may fit the bill of ‘young man, ready to marry, seeking a worthy woman who is under the jurisdiction of her father and who has not ‘ridden the carousel’) not doing this?
On this very site, there are so many complaints about the ‘bad girls’ (all valid, of course – I am not negating that). And yet someone here is covertly presenting you some ‘good girls’ and you are not seizing your chance?
Am I missing something? Does Tom H’s rather off-putting manner (sorry, Tom H, this seems to be the overall view – so please don’t shoot the messenger) outweigh the chance of having a potentially great wife? Or perhaps the thought of having Tom H as your father-in-law giving you indigestion? 🙂
Am I thinking about this ‘like a woman’?
Or do I have at least a partially-valid point?
You gotta take your chances where you can get them, no?
If I am completely off-track with my thoughts on this, could someone be so kind as to show me exactly where I got off the track (gently please, lol)?
Ta very much, gentlemen!
PS: Tom H, I shall add your daughters to my ‘list’ of young people seeking marriage, to pray for, starting today at Mass.
I have to rule myself out – Atlantic Ocean intervening, no Green Card, and all that – but naturally if I were in the running for the latest Manosphere Nuptials, I would be most interested to hear what the young women have to say, and the first thing I would like to ascertain is whether there are Daddy Issues. The Hs are a very close knit family so it seems – possibly too much so.
“Here is a father who is (lovingly) taking control of his daughters’ lives. They are virgins (at least he attests to that). They have jobs (i.e. they are not lazy women). And…most importantly, they have their father in their lives, obviously. No red flags so far.”
Those would have all been pluses for them 5-10 years ago. Age is a red flag.
How old are they? Early thirties?
Personally, I would have thought that is the ‘sweet spot’. They most likely do not have the arrogance of youth anymore (given that they are attractive women, they probably would have had a touch of this at some point – it is not ‘wrong’, but needs to be checked – I am sure Daddy did his job well (wink, wink, Tom H).
And they are certainly not too old to have children. If the peak of fertility is around late twenties, then they are not too far off, I would have thought…
Are you sure you are not being a tad fussy, Earl?
😉
Is age the only thing you have against these women?
Despite their virginity?
I would have thought that age was only a negative because of the implied associations – higher N, rise in expectations, ‘experience’ of a very precise nature, cough, cough, etc.
If all a woman has done wrong is that she is a little older than your ideal, then perhaps you dismiss more women than you should, no?
I am not championing cougars, here. I am just pointing out that if these ladies are in the early thirties, then they are not ‘old’ for the purposes they are being presented here. They are still ‘fit for purpose’.
Everything else being equal, that is…
Opus,
Shame you are not in the running 😛
I am sure Tom H is well upset 😀
Are you sure you are not being a tad fussy, Earl? 😉
Not if I want kids.
It is not that they are too old – and as I said they are nice looking – but the question is, why at roughly thirty years of age are they still; or perhaps now, newly on the marriage market. If I am told they have been pursuing their careers that is a reddish flag. If I am told they just had not met the right guy, I am not buying that and would suspect entitled princess prick-teasing. Mr H has ruled out Carousel riding, so is it a delusional father? – I have come across that more than once in my life, the Father blissfully or wilfully unaware as to what his daughters are really like; they too frightened or shy to break Daddy’s fantasy. As H is the TradCon type, the latter might well be close to the truth.
The other possibility is that they are not attractive to aspirational SWPL types as they are half-white. I’d guess that that as important in New Hampshire as it is in (old) Hampshire (not that any one would ever say so).
“Nice guy” = “Prey”
You guys should know that I’m really on board with the idea that you can’t have two people trying to drive a car, just like you can’t have two people trying to lead a family.
As regards footing the cost of courtship, if a woman doesn’t demand that the man spends money, then the man will assume that the woman is desperate and the man will lose interest. So, it seems that women are kind of stuck here and have to demand expensive courtship or risk losing market appeal.
I bet them women (daughters) are tired of working. All of that effort and have nothing. Think of a son on the same track. he would already have an ungrateful bitch of a wife and 2 kids by now. I do like Asian women even beyond the idea of them culturally making better wives. I hope someone takes up pops offer and shows up to test drive his daughters
“I have come across that more than once in my life, the Father blissfully or wilfully unaware as to what his daughters are really like; they too frightened or shy to break Daddy’s fantasy.”
Exactly.
Does he think his daughters would discuss their sex life with him?
@Marcus
Not too sure about your Myer-Briggs analysis. My strength has always been to think outside the box. Half the time, I don’t even know where the box is. I rely heavily on intuition to solve difficult problems with good success. I can just “see” to the heart of the problem somehow. I have to work to justify the diagnosis so that I can persuade others. I am also creative. And I get energy from being around other people. Kind of opposite of what your software says. Of course, maybe I change modes when defending my kids, so I’d be bi-modal or n-modal.
As regards the language analysis, sure, having two daughters and a wife, I’m gonna talk about women more when we are discussing them. Did you run any analysis on other people’s comments about my daughters, which seems kind of obvious? Are they women-oriented or feminist-leaning based on their use of language when discussing my daughters?
@earl
You are very bitter and negative and maybe paranoid-delusional, based on your comments. Maybe bad experiences with toxic women has contributed to this? Not trying to pick a fight here, just expressing my worthless opinion.
I never consider only my own conversations with my daughters, but a host of information from other sources about them. Anyone who knows the doctor daughter would laugh at your suggestion.
Maybe you have some latent homosexuality that causes you to think that all women are sluts? Again, just expressing a possibility.
My daughters are exceedingly traditional–more so even than I am. I know that’s hard for a lot of you to wrap your heads around–what being traditional really means. You likely will project your own values/behavior on others or make the logical mistake of applying herd morality to individuals. And yes, my daughters discuss stuff with me a lot. Otherwise I wouldn’t be interested in the whole singles thing.
Earl you are acting like a man that is “scared of the pussy” Rather than looking for the perfect wife just look for pussy and let it flow.
Yup…pussy is frightening. Perhaps I should put aside this irrational phobia of it…and submit to it repeatedly. That’ll show it. Then I will have overcome my hugest fear and live a life of freedom.
I have taken another look at Mr Hogan’s FB page and what puzzles me is: I appreciate that the daughter resting her left hand on her Father’s shoulder is not wearing a wedding band, but I am surprised to note that (who I assume to be) Mrs Hogan resting her left hand on his right shoulder is not wearing a wedding band either.
@8oxer
“Our society subsidized your daughter’s education to an astonishing degree.” Prove it. Where were they schooled?
“You selfishly want her to quit her job and get married.” Northern Observer dealt with this adequately.
“You claim to be a “conservative”, and then in the same breath you announce your desire to have your family live as parasites on the ass of this country, and not repay this society its heavy investment in your children.” You’re piling stupidity on top of fucking stupidity. We paid our own way. Try checking this out: ASS-U-ME When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me don’t like you much.
I really get tired of all the lame-ass verbiage put forward by posters who are still wet behind the ears (or maybe just all wet). They are exceedingly negative and I really don’t need all the negativity. Not saying that of all posters, only the really toxic ones like tfh and earl. ton likes to pick fights that aren’t his. Kind of a dick. Also kind of stupid, sorry ton. You piled on and thought you could get away with it. But I’m not a lame-ass king of the hill. If I get banned, no loss to me, but maybe to some of you who are kind of locked in to a whole lot of negativity and toxicity. You really need some constructive criticism about that. It’s also really easy to wind you guys up unintentionally, so I’m maybe an accidental troll, lol. When you’re wound up, you don’t think straight. And if you insult my daughters, don’t expect me to play nice. I WILL wind you up.
And some posters here are exceedingly illiterate. I said that one of the girls is engaged already, yet some of you are still talking about them both being available. Sure, I added confusion about them at the start, but then I corrected it and some of you didn’t pay attention. I know another young lady–very friendly, engaging, charming, lovely, sweet, fun–who also seems very traditional. I think of her like I do my own daughters. Idk about her virginity, but she seems very healthy, mentally speaking. Probably not many partners. Doesn’t text on her cell all the time.
We get gems like this “why at roughly thirty years of age are they still; or perhaps now, newly on the marriage market.” Answered before. Go read. No reason for me to keep answering this question.
” (This by inference suggests that Tom H thinks highly of the Manosphere, actually – please correct me if I am wrong, Tom H).” Excellent question. There is a lot of useful stuff here, but also a lot of toxicity, which is painful to filter. Not a lot of self-examination here, either, which accounts for the toxicity. If you critically examine the writings of other manosphere bloggers, then you automatically get accused of feminism. Kind of toxic. I AM interested in anything that will help me see where the feminism virus has infected me. Don’t need any pills–red or blue–to face reality.
@Bucho,
“@ Bee, regarding the 10 different dates. I’d be interested to see what different types of dates they are. I know he gave a few examples. It could work in a controlled environment, but this sounds like it may provide the framework for serial dating.”
His emphasis is dating 10 different people before settling down. His method encourages serial dating which for some people may lead to serial monogamy which Dalrock has written about. Serial dating wastes a lot of time, energy and money.
His publisher appears to have revised the book and given it a new title:
“Is This the One?: Simple Dates for Finding the Love of Your Life”
Two reviewers on Amazon say that this book now says to date 20 different people; “He says that a person should date at least twenty people before making a commitment to one person.”
http://www.amazon.com/Is-This-The-One-Finding-ebook/dp/B006BEETVK/ref=tag_dpp_lp_edpp_ttl_in
He also does encourage different dates with the same person in order to get to know them better. I think we would all agree this is a good idea.
My biggest objection is his encouraging young Christian women to date around, travel, pursue college and delay marriage and babies.
Grain of salt, I have not read this book, I have just read what his publisher and some reviewers say about it.
Marcus, He’s frightened to leave the house?
He’s not the only one now.
Thanks a bunch.
@SpaceTraveller,
“Here is a father who is (lovingly) taking control of his daughters’ lives. They are virgins (at least he attests to that). They have jobs (i.e. they are not lazy women). And…most importantly, they have their father in their lives, obviously. No red flags so far.”
The daughter’s emphasis on high powered careers is a BIG Yellow flag. If a guy wants to marry but not have kids it is a Yellow flag. If a guy wants to marry and have children and have a stay at home wife/homeschooling wife it becomes a Red flag. (The dad himself says he does not know if his daughters want to continue to work after they get married!!!)
If a guy marries a career girl he becomes her helpmeet instead of the other way around.
Tom H obviously taught and encouraged his daughters to be career girls; to study hard, take challenging subjects, to go to college, to choose a skill based major, to postpone marriage, etc. BUT, did he teach and encourage his daughters to be good wives and also good mothers??? (It is very, very rare for parents to teach and encourage both ladders – probably unheard of.)
For all you feminists lurking here:
1. It is not wrong for a woman to work and have a career. It is also not wrong for a guy to refuse to marry such a woman.
2. We are not “threatened” by strong, independent women, we just know that they don’t make good wives and thus good marriages.
Now you are talking Earl. The pussy doesn’t whip you ,you whip that pussy. On a serious note if you truly want a wife or what appears to be one, or to be honest a female you are legally enslaved to take that as an approach and you will get your master.
There is also the problem of female obesity. Women of all ages are simply less attractive than they used to be 40 years ago. Many men would simply rather not marry than marry an obese woman.
It occurs to me that Tom H is the quintessential unwitting feminist father who means well, whom Novaseeker has described in the past.
These fathers raised daughters who were born during the end of first wave and well into second wave feminism, from about 1967 to about 1987 or so. Those women are currently between the ages of 25 and 45. This was during the era of Mary Tyler Moore, “9 to 5” and all other sots of Girls Who Were Gonna Make It On Their Own and Sistas Are Doin’ It For Themselves.
Tom H and men like him saw the writing on the wall and knew their daughters would need jobs because they couldn’t count on a man to be there to take care of them forever. Men die, men divorce, men cheat, men shirk out of their obligations, etc. These men understand divorce; because virtually all these men are either (1) themselves divorced from their daughters’ mothers or (2) very close to men who are divorced from their daughters’ mothers.
Tom H pushed his daughters to become superachievers, to get educations and good jobs. He did this out of concern for his daughters’ wellbeing so they could support themselves “just in case”, or at least until their husbands came along. At that point, Tom H’s daughters would gladly give up their careers and make sammiches for their even smarter, even more accomplished husbands.
But what actually happened along the way was that Tom H’s daughters masculinized in personality, demeanor and lifestyle. Tom H’s daughter, who is a physician, is 30 years old. She is among the top 5% of wage earners in the US, male or female. She is an educational elite, having more education and training than virtually any man in her age/peer group. She works killer hours, and competes relentlessly with men and women alike. She does these things because she must in order to keep her job and continue staying atop her field.
Tom H describes his daughters as “alpha females”. But, unfortunately for them, he’s unwittingly created feminist career women who will not easily give up the freedom and “independence” their educations, jobs and money give them. And what’s more, their stratospheric hypergamy, which he helped create, makes all but the most attractive men simply “out of their league”. He inasmuch as admits this when he calls them “alpha females” and says that any man who tries to date them will have to be at the top of his game. That, you see, is the problem – the men who will be at the top of their game are men who fall into one of the following categories:
1. Men who have options and will never, ever marry anyone, much less feminist career women who are too much hassle;
2. Men who have options and might be willing to marry them; but will cheat (not “might” cheat. A woman who marries such a man WILL be cheated on, and he’ll do it because he can.); and
3. Stone cold players and cads who will push them hard for sex and will move on when they fail to secure sex on their timetables
Tom H has done his daughters a grave disservice. In all likelihood, Tom H’s daughters’ only hope for a faithful husband are the following:
1. Church herbs
2. “Reformed players” (an infinitesimally tiny group); and
3. Men with decent jobs but with less education. Tradesmen, corporate middle managers, etc. (Best case scenario).
Tom H is also a perfect example of feminist men and women around second wave feminism in the 1970s and 80s in that he and others like him seem to think the SMP and MMP really haven’t changed all that much.
He is also an example of the majority of feminists and others who believed that all these societal and sexual and inter-gender relationship changes could be wrought, and yet there would be no male reaction or response. Feminists, and men like Tom H, believed, and still believe, that, even in the face of all this change, men would (and should) simply do what they’ve always done – go to school, get jobs, make money, and then sign their lives away to a woman (even if he has no guarantee that she will actually stay with him).
This is what the tradcons believed, and still believe. And they believe men do so and should do so because it’s good for men.
It’s what the religious cons believe, and have created an entire false theology and Biblical exegesis to support it.
Spacetraveller says: November 17, 2013 at 6:29 am
“Here is a father who is (lovingly) taking control of his daughters’ lives. They are virgins (at least he attests to that).”
Because he is a dumbshit. The chances of him knowing the sexual status of either daughter equals his ability to honestly answer questions.
See Anonymous Reader says: November 16, 2013 at 4:40 pm. This is the second time he asked these questions and has no response. He has received snark, shaming, and name calling for trying to engage in real life situations with the dumbshit.
Actually, what I said about tradcons was incomplete.
Tradcons believe men should continue to go to school, get jobs, make money, and marry women who might or might not love them, and who might or might not have sex with them, and who might or might not stay with them.
Tradcons believe men should continue doing all these things because that’s good for society and is the engine that keeps society running.
What tradcons are missing is that the incentives for men to toss themselves on the gears of society are long, long gone.
One has to wonder (as with so many drive-by women) looking at Tom Hogan’s first comment – the first one of the thread – what motivated him to find this blog and to come and remonstrate against Dalrock’s ‘verbiage’ as he described it. Men he says ‘just need to make a wide filter and casts a wide net’ which sounds to me like casting caution to the wind. Is it, perchance, that he has had conversation with his beautiful accomplished daughter who has effectively said ‘look Dad there are just no suitable men out there for me ‘ or words to that effect. Her mother is of course rather different as one can see from the photograph – this is social rising in action! and also extinction – the two childless young women – no grandchildren. Feminism turns successful women into de facto Courtesans. I dare not predict the future (we need TFH for that).
Deti, (awesome comment) sends it into the long grass – absolutely knocks it out of the court.
“Say, Tom, got any clues on how a young man who’s a-courting can bring up the question of herpes and debt before he decides to put a ring on it?”
I already covered those in my unpublished book on romance. Not something I haven’t thought of. Also want to check out criminal records and marriage records. Get a medical report from prospective spouse and a financial report. Practice due diligence before tying the knot. Best to mention your showstoppers early. “Got any clues.” Looks a bit snarky there. I have clues–do you?
deti is a little incorrect about me being an unwitting feminist father. I was a feminist father until a few years ago when I realized my mistake. Too late for me, but maybe not for others. I agree with his analysis about the most probable option for a husband.
Sorry, time prevents me from answering all questions. Maybe others can take up some of them for me.
Brilliant Deti, simply brilliant!
I guess with AFA coming along, that Tom’s daughters might not be in the best position to marry. That and the fact that they’re post 24 and Asian.
Given the number of continued comments to/about Tom H (especially regarding his daughters), I’ve pulled him off of the blacklist and made his previously binned comments visible.
That should be the ‘ACA’….
Grand Unified Theories of Dating like this used to pop up all the time on those POF forums a half dozen years ago that I mentioned several threads
back.
There is no SMP/MMP. Those are only gross abstractions of limited utility. It’s not like it’s just that these putative markets are local, like real estate, and therefore extremely variable, but that they’re even more granular, another couple of levels down.
In technical terms, the limitation of D’s model here IME is that the bounds on his integration are wrong because they don’t properly cover all of available phase space, at the very least.
Or in plain language, if you maximize for the avoidance of “slut rabies” you skew the result and unwittingly play right into the racket because of the Greater Slut Principle: every woman already thinks it’s all the other women who are the unworthy sluts.
@Tom H
The software is more accurate than some people realize. In fact, I was looking around your Facebook page a few minutes ago and noticed that you claim to be autistic. According to a few studies I’ve read, the most common Myers-Briggs type for autistic individuals is ISTJ.
People’s perceptions of themselves are not objective.
Re: other comments regarding current dating and courtship practices: http://simulacral-legendarium.blogspot.ca/2013/10/visualizing-history-of-love.html
A conversation left on her page. She seems nicer to dissenting opinions than most online female writers. I’ll leave you guys to dissect her response.
Ceer
Reply
11-16-2013
Perhaps next time you speak with this man, you could take the opportunity to be less defensive when something you don’t like is presented. There is a reason why men like “the girl next door”. I’ve SEEN couples where the man goes for a less attractive woman because she offers the personality traits he prefers.
In case you missed it, this man was showing his dissatisfaction with his date with the beautiful woman because of how demanding she was.
Let’s say you cost your dates $40 a date, and get a large amount of dates from a variety of men. You find one really great guy in the mix, marry him and live happily ever after. Total cost for people to date you is $20,000. Miss pretty decides she wants only the best courtship experience, so it costs men $200 dollars a date. She’s pretty, though so many wealthy men are lining up to show her the time of her life. All said and done, her boyfriends spend $40,000 on her. At the end of that, the few men that spark her interest decide to pick someone else.
At this point, who should be jealous? What is the point of dating?
Emma
Emma
Reply
11-16-2013
All excellent points. I’ll leave the finer details of this particular scenario aside. And I like your breakdown of the economics of dating. It was your last question that got me thinking: What is the point of dating?
Well, it many cases, yes, it is to find a spouse. But not always — and increasingly, not so. Yes, I would like to remarry. But I have found so many things ASIDE from husband-hunting while dating over the past couple of years: self discovery/growth, fun, adventure, sex, companionship, learning about new people/things/arts ….
lzozozozooz
hey dlarockassz!
some folks think out loud.
other folks like TOM H poop out loud
and call it thought.
i think its funny how a never-endinzg army of these confused, out-loud. trad-con, man-hating pooperz show up here to provide us with entertainmentz lzozlzozozo
hey dalrockasz the larger dynamic here is that with your humble LEADERSHIP you have created a forum where you can set the standard, tone, tenor of logic and reason and morality and honor, and then other loyal band of borthersz can do the work in logically deocnstrctuing the Tom H’s and the out-loud pooping, asinine trad-consz zlozozozlzozo, and exposing their prejudices, blindness, moral failingsz and logical inconsistencieszz zlzozlzozzl.
indeed no war was ever won alone, but only with an army of united menz, nor was any war ever won without wise generalsz such as dalororoakdacsz!! dalrockas!Z who can unite menz based on teh better angelesz of tehir nature, and the true deep soul and spirit which marks a MAN a MANZZ!!!!
zlzozlzlzozzl keep up da good workz.
at your service here
–da crazy irisihmanz
Just back from evening Mass…prayers safely delivered to the Almighty…
Yes, I get what everyone is saying.
Regarding the virginity of his daughters, Legion, fair enough, he MAY not know the whole truth. On the other hand, he may well do.
And I see what you mean, Deti. I particularly agree that Tom H’s use of the phrase ‘alpha female’ is unfortunate as well as telling.
But minor Freudian slips aside, how would YOU advise your daughter, Deti? Let’s say you have one, and she is about 15 now…
Drop out of school?
Don’t get an education or a trade?
Just concentrate on your looks?
As I am sure you’ve guessed, my real question here is, what shall I tell my own daughter one day, if I have one?
(Of course, I know she will be advised by her own father – just curious for your opinion on this).
It is not mutually exclusive for a woman to have a career and be capable of home-making skills, you know. Is part of the problem here that most or all are assuming Tom H’s daughters won’t make good wives because they are ‘career women’?
Or that they simply won’t make good wives because they are ‘of this generation’?
Another surprising recurring theme is that of their race – again, I would have thought that a mixed race woman wold be the biggest catch of all, especially for Caucasian men…because they bring with them the (potentially) best of two worlds…
Again, how disappointing to see I am so far off the mark!
I really was paying attention!
Oh well, back to the drawing board then…
What is an alpha female? That concept, in my usage, comes from Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. It talks about her dominance and probable mating group. Alphas were high intelligence in BNW and had excellent genetics. Alphas mated with other alphas, etc. Alpha primes were exceptional alphas who became leaders and innovators. Alpha females were not necessarily “career women” and did not necessarily “climb the corporate ladder.” It was simply a probably mating designation. Alpha females tended to dominate lesser females in their female social groups. There are always female social groups.
I am new to the manosphere part of the internet. I realize that my usage doesn’t correspond with the typical usage in the manosphere, so please read my usage of the word as *I* intend it to be used, not as the manosphere uses it. Even in the manosphere concept of alpha female, doctors may be alpha females. Doctors generally do not climb corporate ladders, so discussions on this blogpost about doctors climbing corporate ladders are absurd.
Very intelligent women frequently have a hard time finding a mate in any culture–it was true back in the ’70s as much as today. So how should a parent advise his intelligent daughter? If she prepares for early marriage, her intelligence may scare off suitors and she ends up without earning prospects. So what to do?
@Marcus
“According to a few studies I’ve read, the most common Myers-Briggs type for autistic individuals is ISTJ.”
And I am not a probability distribution. Perhaps I am an exception to the dominant trend among autists?
“Marriage is failing and the family is declining you say? Let them eat butthehxt.” -Tom H zlolzlzlozzozzloz
” (The dad himself says he does not know if his daughters want to continue to work after they get married!!!) ”
All too often, neither do the daughters. And if they do, they are unlikely to reveal as much to any potential mate. To complicate matters, their desire (stated or otherwise) is relative to the three rough categories of men Deti aptly summarizes above. Given the most probable outcome is with the beta tradesman middle-manager type, she will be “stuck” working post-children in order to preserve the lifestyle she’s accustomed/entitled/expected.
This is one of the primary drivers of the resentment and eventual disdain these alpha females end up projecting onto their beta-provider husbands. The kind of brewing discontent that ends with: “He is a good man, a good father, works hard, but…….” Insert Eat-Pray-Love here. Which is also part of why middle manager, white collar cube-farm jobs are no longer ‘good enough’ to secure a wife within a healthy relationship dynamic. Which is why men who are astute enough to see the writing on the wall are withdrawing from courtship. Why court women who are poised to lose respect for you like grains falling through the hourglass.
What is the point of working, competing, fighting, and paying (time and money) to become a consolation prize fraught with extremely high risk of spoilage? Spoilage that is further paid for – if not economically, certainly socially and psychologically by a father who may be “great” but still must fight for his rights to be that father. And against an alpha female who may very well possess greater economic resources in addition to a massive political/legal tailwind from family courts to wield her ‘control’ over the family she fractured herself. Yeah, sign me up for that.
Those women – who Deti aptly categorizes, were thrust into achievement, credentials, careerism. Perhaps as insurance, some baseline of self-provisioning; perhaps because they really want to be a law-doc-power suit. For some this is the end-game, and all might be well, but for most it ends in a grand distraction from the end-game of wife and mother as well as a very dim view of those few men who have the status and inclination to stand eye-to-eye with her upon her pyramid of hypergamy of her own construction.
In today’s AMP, those women want ‘credit’ for their (past) achievements (projection) as well as their potential economic and social contributions to the hypothetical family unit from both attraction-value dynamics in terms of SMV (entirely off-base) and MMV (mostly off-base), yet they also retain the right to scale back or scuttle said career in the name of the children. All women (effectively) desire the *option* to be a SAHM. Part of the challenge is that they have been told that the stated desire to be a SAHM is detrimental to women and all they have fought for; it erodes the ‘progress’. Thus those women hold this joker close to the vest.
Men must not deviate from their role as provider-protector and it has mostly worked because men are well aware (I’d say from around 2nd grade on) that attracting and ‘winning’ a woman – be it sexually or otherwise, is going to hinge on how they compete with other men in areas of status. Chasing dreams, taking risk, those things are weighed heavily in terms of how they will impact status and their ability to produce surplus (provision). Expressing any desire to limit their productivity over time is essentially a disqualification – regardless of her own capacity to produce surplus. Thats the rub.
In the SMP, sex has been decoupled from relationship investment. Fine. So why would men invest in a 3mo, 6mo, 12mo bond when the rates are arguably the same in an overnight deposit? All while the 30-year long bet of marriage is still stacked against men as a means of insuring/protecting women’s opportunity cost or losses should it dissolve (no reason needed) – despite the fact that younger women are outperforming their male peers in education and career trajectories and men and women are now ‘equal’ and marriage roles are fungible. The disincentives are jut too hard to ignore.
Oh and there just aren’t that many Ladies out there. Plenty of ‘girls’ though. Girls in yoga pants fingering their phones. Men don’t court girls. They court Ladies. “Dating” has indeed replaced courtship, but oh how we detest labels (at least useful or truthful ones), so “Dating” can mean so manny different and contradictory conditions that it is all really meaningless.
As for the under 30 girls these days. It is safer to assume ‘banging’ than ‘dating’. Ask her. “Oh, we aren’t ‘Dating’!, we are just ‘hanging out'”. Women don’t want courtship, they don’t even want ‘Dating’; they want what they want (sex with hot guys perhaps?) and most are getting it. The only problem is when they suddenly decide (perhaps because they aren’t able to get what they used to get?) they want something else but no longer wield enough SMP power to force it.
Its like playing scrabble with twice as many letters as your opponent and then after the board is nearly full, complaining that men (or whomever is in charge) didn’t make the board big enough.
Women who want to be married before 30 are finding ways to do just that. Most are content, which is why we don’t hear much from them. The noise is from the UMC over 30 crowd. The women in politics, publishing/media, education, and idolized positions in business – alpha careerists who leveraged their sexual power to their favored ends and now want something more, different, but can’t see that marriage (from the male perspective) is a totally different game. Their high-score, that full board of letters and points, means very little to a man in the wife market, in fact, he rather prefers a woman who is much earlier on in the game. A clean board and an open heart.
Dalrock: “For the ladies reading who might be offended at this… ”
D, they’re not “ladies”, not gentlewomen, they’re women.
“And I am not a probability distribution. Perhaps I am an exception to the dominant trend among autists?”
Yes, of course. But I determined ISTJ via another method. In other words: corroboration.
Also: people cannot be probability distributions. I think you mean something else.
So how should a parent advise his intelligent daughter? If she prepares for early marriage, her intelligence may scare off suitors and she ends up without earning prospects.
As someone who’se been interested in “smart” girls, the biggest turn off hasn’t been their IQ, it’s what they do with it. Any relationship requires some kind of emotional connection, a meeting of both the hearts and the minds.
“SmartGirls” who pursue the development of their intellect w/out putting in the required effort in learning social skills and emotional intelligence will fare as badly as any other “unbalanced” person.
SGs need a guy with a certain level of “smarts” – not so he can dominate her intellectually, but so they can communicate at roughly the same level w/out having to “translate” their thoughts to a “lower grade level” understanding.
If a SG uses her intellect to compete with her guy, show him where he’s wrong, and otherwise marginalize him – that pretty well guarantees she’ll be a solo flyer for the rest of her life. If she uses it to build him him, encourage him, and works on finding a trusting emotional connection (and vice-versa) I think a SG would do better.
@marcus
Don’t be snarky. My point was that your argument relied on a distribution fallacy. Surely you figured that out. Its corroboration is non-existent.
@Northern
I also like smart girls. All of my loves have been exceptionally intelligent. Still, intelligence tends to scare off guys, notwithstanding that the intelligent girl may indeed edify her love. The problem is that the other snarky smart girls have poisoned the well.
Lovely post, Laszlo!
I realize that my usage doesn’t correspond with the typical usage in the manosphere, so please read my usage of the word as *I* intend it to be used, not as the manosphere uses it.
Entitled much? If you want to be understood by a specific audience, then you need to learn how they use language and communicate with them that way instead of demanding that they change their language to suit your requirements.
The problem is that the other snarky smart girls have poisoned the well.
Indeed – especially the ones that broadcast “I don’t need you / you’re beneath me.” What sane guy needs that in his life?
@Tom H
No one gives a damn about *your* usage. Facebook has fooled you into thinking others actually care about what you actually think. It has turned you (as it was intended) to turn you into a narcissist. Meanwhile: You have demonstrated here and in the comments of the Threatpoint post that you don’t even know what you actually think. Stop being precious. Every man here has submitted himself to the study and knowledge of others…with the possible exception of Earl; who is your 30-something-but-yet-to-marry doppelganger.
Matter of fact: If you could get Earl to slip his tubesteak into your daughter (after rings, toasts, local customs, etc.) I think that would go very long way towards some real progress in the comments here, and in the wider Manosphere.
Pingback: How should women respond to men withdrawing from courtship? | Dalrock
Dear Tom H:
Prove it. Where were they schooled?
Well, you said that one or both was a “doctor”, specifically implying that she was awarded an MD. My assumption was that you were telling the truth, rather than indulging in wishful thinking or exaggeration.
Let me make this simple enough for even you to understand.
There are a finite (means “less than infinite”) number of slots for prospective physicians in a finite (see above) number of medical schools in America. Those schools were built at an incredible (I’d argue unquantifiable) cost, thanks to accrued social capital. Your daughter(s) took seats there. The expectations were, as any normal person would be able to tell you, that after being given this great gift by the people of America, those students would go on to practice medicine, effectively paying back the investment in them.
Doesn’t matter if you bought them some books and paid a few thou for “tuititon”. You did not “pay your own way”. Not even close. Paying one’s own way implies a lifetime of work in the profession.
It’s amusing to see this chucklehead pretending he knows who he’s talking to, arrogantly and insolently giving his useless “advice” to the men here.
By the standards of the world, Tom, I’d say (and with a fair degree of confidence) that I’m educated to a much further extent than you. I don’t find such dick-measuring contests useful, so I don’t usually talk about my achievements in that regard. Really, I could be an unemployed garbage collector… I’d still be a better writer, more astute thinker, and an all-’round better man than you.
The difference between you and I is elucidated in the fact that I am taking this society’s investment in me seriously. I don’t plan to dally at “working part time” or being a homemaker, after marrying a rich partner, as you’re hoping that your daughters will do. That ship sailed for me a long time ago, by birth (men can’t usually do that) but also by my own committment to my profession.
Again, I wish your daughters well, and hope they continue to be the best physicians they can be. It couldn’t have been easy growing up with a dolt like you as a father, and I am sure they don’t take you any more seriously than we do here. This is certainly fortunate for their sakes.
Regards, Boxer
I enjoy the company of intelligent women; women who are articulate, intelligent and open-minded. Unfortunately, I frequently find two problems:
1. Having rested their desirability on their intelligence they are intimidated by any one they perceive as intellectually equal or above.
2. Being female the slightest thing sets them off in a downward spiral of emotional outbursts and violent tantrums.
I asked my friend who teaches at one of the local fee-paying prep schools – that is to say for those under the age of fourteen – (within commuting distance of the City of London – the World’s or at least Europe’s financial capital) what the women who drive their brood to school – the wives of the City Bankers with their six or seven figure salaries (plus massive bonus) – in their four-wheel drive Range Rovers (the families second car) are like. He told me they were all of the blonde-bimbo sort. Pleasant, young, but a little dim and who spend the rest of the day before picking-up at the gym or in coffee mornings. These women are assuredly not TomH’s Alpha females. Bankers are not interested thirty-something career bitches.
Opus says: November 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm
Unfortunately, I frequently find two problems:
1. Having rested their desirability on their intelligence they are intimidated by any one they perceive as intellectually equal or above.
2. Being female the slightest thing sets them off in a downward spiral of emotional outbursts and violent tantrums.
3) If things get the least bit difficult, they cut you off and you cease to exist to them.
@Northern
I was referring to my past usage of “alpha” before I realized that it diverged from the manosphere’s usage. From here on I’ll refer to alpha-males as “alphas.” I still disagree with the opinion that there can’t be alpha-females who aren’t careerists. I’ll replace “alpha-prime” with “innovator/leader”. Satisfied?
And do I get the title of the cockiest asshole in the manosphere? Yo! I got game!
@marcus
I need my nightly dancing in order to fuel my energy. I like being with and talking with people a lot. My autism is very mild and compensated for most of the time. (Yeah, I used to resemble Sheldon Cooper back in my junior year in high school, but not really since then.) Do I sound like an introvert? So, what confidence should I place in your ISTJ conclusion? Do you see why I question it?
@manosphere
I question whether women really like cocky assholes, or whether they just respond to confidence. Maybe if the knights showed more confidence they would get more attention from the ladies. I approach women with confidence and am not afraid to reveal my vulnerabilities nor to ask them direct questions that engage them. I am not afraid to flirt with them nor to reveal my libido to them by my conversation, though I always try to do it in a gallant way. Sometimes I dial it back, of course. I usually find women 30+ more interesting to talk with than the younger women. I don’t usually flirt with younger women because I don’t usually find their conversation to be very interesting. It also seems to help get interest from the ladies at the dance parties if you can dance well, so those of you looking for more options might consider learning to dance. Studios usually teach group lessons at a reasonable price and you can dance afterwards for free.
What do you all think about the importance of confidence in attracting a lady’s attention? What other factors are important?
Tom H says: November 17, 2013 at 1:36 pm
@Northern I was referring to my past usage of “alpha” before I realized that it diverged from the manosphere’s usage.
Then that’s what you should’ve said “I used alpha female in the X sense of the word, and since I can’t go back and change it, here’s what I meant in ‘manosphere’ terms…”
And do I get the title of the cockiest asshole in the manosphere? Yo! I got game!
Cocky is often not far removed from being deficient in clues and unaware of the true situation.
Tom H,
Yes, I do know what YOU mean by ‘alpha female’. It is precisely YOUR meaning of it that is problematic.
The alpha/beta system is not a great way to ‘rank’ women. I find it unfortunate that you do this and it is also telling because you are using it to warn would-be suitors that your daughters are ‘superior’ to them. This is exceptionally counterproductive, because your daughters in fact need men they can look up to.
If men are the ‘buyers’ in the marriage market, then you need to sell to them what they would like. As a man yourself, I woud have thought that would be easy for you…
Don’t render my prayers ineffective. Do it right. Lose the alpha-female label, please. It is only hurting your daughters’ chances.
They otherwise have a lot going for them.
But perhaps it is Daddy who is not playing the game right? I can see your heart is in the right place, bless you. But it is a tough game, and you need to do it right if you want the right results…I fear you may have lost your way a bit…
In all humility, I find that parents sometimes are ‘dépassé’ as the french would say (not up to it) when it comes to their children’s love lives. This is a generational thing, and it is not really your fault. Afterall, it is not you who is in the thick of the SMP/MMP and you may not see the real problems like your daughters can, or men their age can.
You may be analysing the SMP/MMP from the perspective of an older generation, which never helps. Things are incredibly different since your generation, and of course the problems DID start from your generation, as Deti points out in his superlative comment.
I can see you are a loving father. Good!
But don’t kill your daughters’ prospects with your love.
Please get with the programme, ASAP.
Ty, Spacey. 🙂
“Cocky is often not far removed from being deficient in clues and unaware of the true situation.”
Says a guy lacking a sense of humor
A.N.O
I hold very similar views re: “smart women”. Above average – probably further than I realize, is a must have. But like most attributes it is absolutely relative to how it is applied. And it never makes a woman ‘hotter’. Women have told me my brian is ‘sexy’. I’ve yet to really feel the same. Though this is not to say that it doesn’t add significantly to their overall attractiveness in terms of relationship and marital potential. In fact, I’m rather obtuse at times. Too cerebral. I am a student of philosophy and economics and read too much. My conversational vocabulary often sails overhead with women. So when I find one that can go deep with me, even spar a little without showing fangs, and just wander with a variety of topics: that gets my attention. Unfortunately, on the whole, intelligence also comes with a fair amount of risk – as stated above.
In the defense of these SM, the ‘system’ be it education (college in particular) or most workplaces, have been engineered to favor the feminine approach. Resulting in constant prodding of women to ‘speak up, stand up, speak their minds’ without regard for impetus or merit; matched with grossly disproportionate rewarding of said female input, all governed by female-driven group dynamics in meetings and presentations, communication styles, and the excessive ‘administration’ of ideas.
This, coupled with the increased competition of having greater numbers of women in colleges and seeking their professional accolades, both men and women are becoming more confrontational with one another. There is some indication that the college gap is an outcome of men’s tendency to avoid, withdrawal, or sabotage situations in which they have to compete with women over an extended period of time. Men want to have sex with women, not debate them or delve into a tilted competitive situation tainted by sexual dynamics. Intellectual dishonesty is just one toxic byproduct of this.
In any case, women come out swinging. Most men are already tired of dealing with it by the time they reach courting age. Truly *smart* women suss this out fairly quickly and learn to temper their competitive urges and recast them into collaborative inputs and more listening. The challenge of mastering submissiveness is indeed substantial given the amount of mind bending that women are subjected to via the feminist-progressive masters. Us men have our own outcomes, of which some of us are quite aware, but are distinctly *not* of any social importance worthy of investigation outside the bounds of boards such as these.
Oh, and credentials or job titles are not intelligence. Apparently masters degrees are growing on trees. I don’t even admit to having mine until pressed – even then downplaying it in order to attempt to head off the almost inevitable pissing contest. Bore. Online is worse. 30+y/o women have online dating profiles that read like LinkedIn with an RFP that would make General Dynamics queasy.
Going toe-to-toe with women in their defined realms of ‘intelligence’ is a no-win. Like arguing with a Sicilian or fighting a land war in Asia. I’d rather parachute into bimbo land with nothing but a backpack full of wine coolers and back-issues of People magazine.
I always wanted to be a trophy husband.
Ha,
Tom, your delusions about your daughters are just that. They are not virgins. They sleep with guys like me, and keep it from their parents. Guys like me, lying in bed next to them, for, well, I usually figure I have to hang around at least half hour or it will become an issue and take longer the next time I call them up on the fly for some quick and easy fun. Maybe I use that half hour to make fun of her dottering old deluded dad. It’s good for a laugh and maybe if we’re having fun I’ll go for round 2. If she’ll let me I rawdog, and girls like that usually do let me. Then I go home and brag to my buddies about my latest casual lay. She’s in her 30s though, so only good for a quick impromptu fun time.
No one is a virgin at 30 that grew up in this country. Let me know if pistols or swords are your preference.
Laszlo November 17, 2013 at 3:39 pm says….a lot of good stuff. Thx!
“No one is a virgin at 30 that grew up in this country.”
We may be rare, but we’re not extinct.
“No one is a virgin at 30 that grew up in this country.”
I’d like to expand on this – just because everyone in you know behaves a certain way that does not mean that all people everywhere behaves that way. Given the way that chastity and virginity has and continues to be mocked in society, one could consider it a persecuted class. As such, it’d be no wonder that people like you think the way you do.
I submit, you need to do more searching before making such statements.
“No one is a virgin at 30 that grew up in this country.”
Correction…no woman is a virgin at 30 in this country.
@Tom H, re snark: pot, meet kettle. One more: to communicate effectively with an audience, the speaker/writer should default to terms as they are understood by his audience. If he doesn’t like how his audience defines those terms, then he needs to offer his arguments and be ready for debate. Simply strutting about saying that a term only means what *I* intend it to mean without a cogent argument behind that is to insult your audience’s intelligence.
Re fathers and smart daughters: while your daughter’s intelligence is never a bad thing in and of itself, it’s far more important what your daughter learns about treating the important people in her life. Does she learn to use her intelligence to aid her role as her husband’s helpmeet? Or does she use her intelligence as a cudgel to beat her husband over the head with? She will always be a smart girl, she can never not be smart, but … what form does that intelligence take in dealing with others? This is crucial to prevent that intelligence from intimidating men in the first place or destroying marriages after they’re entered.
It occurs to that one additional reason why men are withdrawing from courtship is that there are only so many rejections, nuclear or otherwise, that a man can take. Further, I believe I am correct in saying that a man takes a lot longer to get over an aborted or unsuccessful courting than does a woman. He may be up for sex but marriage will be off his radar. This will make it all the harder for a woman intent on marrying (but see the next thread).
Laszlo says:
November 17, 2013 at 3:39 pm
Excellent summation of the world men have to deal with.
Yea Opus, never mind the sunken cost of the money paid but the the actual time, effort wasted when a courtship doesn’t work, the so called ‘opportunity cost’ that could have been better spent elsewhere. There really is a limited amount of times a man can do that. And I would say it’s not very high. Three of four at most.
Laszlo,
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/why-men-are-withdrawing-from-courtship/#comment-97997
You are not looking for an intelligent woman.
You are, in fact, seeking a woman with good/excellent conversational skills.
The two are not always [in fact, more rarely than not] the same thing.
No healthy, confident man ever tires speaking about his interests [read: mission].
And no healthy, desirable woman tires listening to such [within reason; obsession is rarely attractive on anyone].
A wise woman knows she needn’t understand it all to find it valuable.
A wise man knows a woman needn’t understand it to find her helpful.
All the best to you.
@Tom H
“My point was that your argument relied on a distribution fallacy. Surely you figured that out. Its corroboration is non-existent.”
There is in fact no fallacy in my statement, and my original statement is indeed corroborated. I advise you to read what I’ve written more closely. (Also: read up on Myers-Briggs.)
“So, what confidence should I place in your ISTJ conclusion?”
It’s not my conclusion, but that of the software (and the peer-reviewed research backing that software, which I’ve cited in other comments on other threads).
Your reaction here is quite common; there is often significant consternation due to being told that one is not the way they perceive themselves to be.
“No one is a virgin at 30 that grew up in this country.”
It’s about 10%, depending on who you ask, what their sample size is, and when they conducted their research.
Tom, your mistake is that there is no such thing as an “alpha female”. What you have done is to turn you daughter into “alpha males without a penis”. True alpha males aren’t going to want anything to do with them, and neither are the other 98% of men. Men want women who are complimentary to them, not in competition. If you didn’t raise your daughters to be submissive and as complimentary and supportive of their men, that is your personal failure and not something that any man should or will willingly take on as his burden. Your daughters are past their prime marriagible and family rearing age and should focus on their careers, which they likely stole from a more worthy man in the first place when they got a seat in a medical school simply due to the fact that they were born as women.
Right, sorry ANO, it wasn’t precisely correct. No woman over 30 who is not somehow an extreme outlier in terms of physical attractiveness. And especially no woman who has been through medical school. And while there was a bit of hyperbole to tweak Tom, I have been with many women whose parents believed them to be virgins. Two examples: a Chinese girl I dated for a while, she said her dad asked her if I had tried to kiss her yet, lol. Earlier this year I hung out for a little bit with a Pakistani girl. She had this big banner saying “there is no god buy allah” and we’d drink wines and hook up on a couch directly underneath it. Her dad thought that she was a virgin and an observant moslem.
@Atahualpa,
Post your location.
@Opus
“just need to make a wide filter and casts a wide net’ which sounds to me like casting caution to the wind” Try to get the quote right.
@marcus
“It’s not my conclusion, but that of the software (and the peer-reviewed research backing that software, which I’ve cited in other comments on other threads).” In other words, psychological bullshit based on general patterns and missing the exceptions. Do I need to explain this? Ok. Let’s suppose that you examine swans and find them all to be white. You publish your findings and your findings are peer reviewed that all swans are white. A farmer happens to own a black swan and reads your article and find it to be bullshit. You argue with the farmer that your peer-reviewed article (could be a software program) shows that his swan is white. He knows that you’re an idiot. Sorry. Distribution fallacy.
The percentage of chaste people is considerably larger than 10%, of course. It includes faithful marriage partners who were virgins when married, new divorcees who filed because their spouse was unfaithful and who were virgins when married, and new widow(er)s who were virgins when married. I think that the manosphere should fight for Chaste Pride, which would help virgins. Why should someone be ashamed to say that they are virgin? Any society which mocks virginity is toxic.
“@Atahualpa,
Post your location.”
What happens if I don’t?
Given the number of continued comments to/about Tom H (especially regarding his daughters), I’ve pulled him off of the blacklist and made his previously binned comments visible.
It’s like a story out of Grimm’s Fairy Tales.
Tom H:
I wanted to address some of the things you said on this thread and on the Threatpoint thread.
I truly want to offer these comments in the spirit of offering a bit of help and advice.
First things first. Lock down your Facebook page. It’s a completely open profile that anyone on FB can read. If you must insist on having an active profile that discloses your real name, where you live, complete with photos of your family on it, then the least you can do is make it invisible to people whom you would not want to see it. And for Pete’s sake, do not link to your open, unsecured FB profile on any blog in which you make comments that can be linked to your real life identity. And pick a handle that doesn’t identify you in real life.
Now, if I may:
I don’t agree with Cane Caldo on everything, but on this he is correct: Tom, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And that’s not snark or condescension. You quite literally do not know what you’re talking about. You don’t have anywhere close to an understanding of the nomenclature used here. Your ideas of the sexual and marriage marketplaces were last in use around 1979. You’d be better served to read a little more before speaking of things you don’t understand.
Your daughters might very well be virgins. Putting this delicately… the likelihood that you know, REALLY know, their sexual status is, well, slim. Girls don’t tend to talk much about their sexcapades with their fathers. If your daughters have had sex before marriage, you, Tom H, will be the last to know that.
Your physician daughter is not without dates, yet hasn’t married yet. Want to know why this is? She is an attractive woman who hasn’t been freed up for marriage because of her job. More to the point, though, is that her education level and likely income rules out all but the most attractive men. The men who she really doesn’t like all that much might get a date or two but she rejects them because they aren’t high enough status or attractive enough for her. The men who she really likes and are attractive to her get a date or two but then those men probably reject her, because either (1) they push her for sex and she rejects them; or (2) they push her for sex, she gives them sex, and they’re gone after they get what they want; or (3) they date her a couple of times and decide she isn’t worth the hassle. (This is a problem you unwittingly helped create.)
You foolishly believe in something called “alpha females”, premised on a fictional book. There are no such things as “alpha females”. There are “alpha mares”, but such women don’t drive male decisionmaking in the SMP and MMP. What you think are “alpha females” are known here as “ballbusting bitches” and “feminist career girls”. Most attractive men in the market for marriage simply won’t deal with women like these.
I suggest you spend a bit more time reading around here and a bit less time commenting. Dalrock is in the upper echelon of manosphere bloggers and is one of the manosphere’s foremost thinkers and theoreticians. You would do well to read more and say less.
Would the phrase “Time Capsule Tradcon” be applicable here? John Travolta wants his shiny shirt back.
I had an ill-advised meet for a drink with a 43-year-old. I was hoping she was down for just hooking up given the dating site she was on.
Turned out she wasn’t. After ditching her marriage 7 years ago because she would not leave the L.A.-area to have kids, she wants a long-term relationship.
She informed me that men that don’t want kids are just as attracted to older women as younger women. She was serious. She was at least 3 years past “the Wall.” This is the delusional world these women live in.
I’m never buying drinks again for an wrinkled has-been.
@AceSpade
“You are not looking for an intelligent woman.
You are, in fact, seeking a woman with good/excellent conversational skills.
The two are not always [in fact, more rarely than not] the same thing.”
So you are telling me what I’m NOT looking for yet also plainly state that the two conditions (conversationalist and intelligent) are not mutually exclusive. Thanks. I’ll file this with the other top 10 most useful tidbits of strawmen. Next time please just state your point w/o shoveling hay.
I’ll humor you. Yes, conversation ‘skills’ are a dimension of the overall intelligence package; and yes, a 150 IQ aspy-savant who has her address pinned to her blouse is probably not going to ‘do it’ for me. But what are you really saying? Ah, I get it: self-reported intelligent men require an audience; an obedient listener and adequate orator to keenly reflect my monologues in that sweet feminine light.
In assumed generalities, I agree: women should practice the art of listening as well as restraint more often, but that has less to do with a man needing to be heard and more to do with women needing to reign in their unbridled solipsism.
I’m rather introverted. Holding court is not my ‘thing’. I do however engage deeply with those in my trust. I am inquisitive and quite engaging when the situation merits. In all, indeed the takeaways are sound. Listen more, confront and challenge less; a passionate and driven man is more attractive, and women of moderate intelligence are well-served in acquiring/developing conversational savvy as opposed to whatever trite, vacant, and rhetorical sound-bites they query from TV, social media, and other herd-friendly troughs.
Despite your astute summation: I am, in fact, looking for intelligence. I know women like you probably don’t differentiate when it comes to males conversing. Most of the content is irrelevant to you. Its all about his ‘confidence’ of delivery. His showmanship. A bit of projection on your part, no doubt. But that’s to be expected. There are, however, still some men who can separate the wheat from the chaff. Yes, make good conversation. And yes, a good conversation is not all about the content, but please, don’t tell us what we are ‘actually’ looking for. Most of us know quite well by now. Thats a good part of why we are not ‘courting’. Their rules, their objectives, their projection of what we should/will/need/actually want, with our costs our risk our time. Pass.
Sorry for the OT but I thought this was a good manosphere topic:
http://www.weather.com/lifestyle/pets/replacing-kids-with-pets-20130214
I was surprised to find it on weather.com of all places. I guess things are worse than they seem, population-wise. I personally know many mid-30s career women who have pets (cats) but no man and no kids. I have heard all sorts of anti-kid comments from these kinds of women, too.
“So how should a parent advise his intelligent daughter? If she prepares for early marriage, her intelligence may scare off suitors and she ends up without earning prospects. So what to do?”
Mail a couple of turkey-basters to Mensa. I’m sure some spergelord will oblige.
Manosphere alpha female: A woman who is able to attract and keep the attentions and resources of one or more high quality (i.e., ALPHA) males.
Feminist/Tradcon/MSM/etc. alpha female: Career woman, empowered ball buster, future cat collector. U go grrrrll!!!
Courting can actually be kind of fun if you want to draw it out. There was a girl I thought was pretty and who was bubbly and fun to be around, so we hung out lots, drove places, went to coffee shops, etc.
She was worthy of neither marriage nor sex, but life is short, and sometimes I want to spend it in the company of a pretty girl without bothering to make her tingle.
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uMMMM……
does anyone really want Tom H for a father-in-law?
Can you imagine the Christmas dinner conversation?
Because in the modern MMP, marriage itself – even with Her Day is not enough.
This reminds me: a post somewhere in the manosphere on how “Her Day” has become all about HER rather than THEM is long overdue, if it hasn’t already been written.
Not only are younger women a courtship risk – many are actively turned off by courtship because it reminds them of costs they don’t want to bear (ew, babies, eek, commitment, my career, me me me). So they will actively look for alpha males who don’t care and just want to have a good time. Inevitably, they fall in love with these men and when the inevitable breakup occurs, a part of them dies inside.. Three of four of these type of break-ups and you have an irretrievably broken woman.
Freebird said My 72 yr old mother is a ‘bible study teacher’ in her Methodist church.
I mentioned the several places in the bible where it says wives are to submit to their husbands.
Her reply?
“No woman should ever submit to a man, the bible is just wrong on that.”
As soon as I saw the word “Methodist” in your first sentence above, I knew that the last sentence would appear, in one form or another, without even seeing it. (You could also substitute “Lutheran,” “Presbyterian,” or “Episcopalian” in the same sentence and anticipate the same sentiment, all four of these being the liberal/leftist/feminist-preferred flavors of modern churchianity.)
TRP said “can you keep up, can you handle me, etc”
Barf. Does she want a relationship, or does she want a race? Do today’s women even know the difference?I>
She wants both. Toasted ice, and all that.
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@Tom H
“The percentage of chaste people is considerably larger than 10%, of course. It includes […] mocks virginity is toxic.”
Your statement above is reflective of your seeming inability to read and comprehend what I’ve written. You need to slow down and read rather than just skimming and jumping to what you want to say.
@feeriker , Methodist (and Episcopalian, etc.) churches aren’t even useful for Sunday morning nightclub game anymore. There’s nobody there except kids whose parents force them to go and old people.
@Tom H:
96% of Christian single, never-married women age 27 are not virgins. See http://deeperstory.com/news-flash-you-probably-wont-marry-a-virgin/
Because of the risk of friviolous divorce, this means most Christian girls over age 27 are not suitable as wives. This is sad, but true. They are useful as girlfriends or friends with benefits, but little else.
(I happen to know a fair number of unique unicorns who are in their late 20s and virgins, so I’ve gotten pretty good at IDing them.)
Bee, November 17, 9:15 am:
Stephen Arterburn is twice divorced, thrice married. His first marriage ended after a few years. His second marriage lasted nearly 20 years. He and his second wife had one daughter. He is currently married to his third wife. He claims to be Christian and even has a ministry.
I don’t think anyone should take relationship advice from a man who has a proven inability to keep his own marriage(s) together. His advice that people should date at least 20 different people might be part of the problem.
Interesting read. All of you fellows are good candidates for dying lonely in some cold bed. I wouldn’t feel any pity for you.
My extended thoughts on this dance:
http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/quell-her-inner-war/
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Thanks, deti. Not sure why it wasn’t locked down. Strange.
@TOM H
Your daughters are NOT the superb female specimen in Brave New World. I read that book over 2 decades ago and have seen the TV movie with Leonard Nimoy. Those alpha-females were YOUNG & beautiful . Your 30-year-old-hit-the wall daughters would be considered expired and “ostracized” from that fantasy society….and soon even in our reality. Tick tock. Tick tock.
“For all you feminists lurking here:
1. It is not wrong for a woman to work and have a career. It is also not wrong for a guy to refuse to marry such a woman.”
No, it’s not wrong, but then again it’s also not wrong for a woman to refuse to marry a man who doesn’t make a decent living and can support her.
“2. We are not “threatened” by strong, independent women, we just know that they don’t make good wives and thus good marriages.”
Huh? Strong independent women have existed since the beginning of time and there have been plenty of weak-willed non-independent men who love them, and with whom they would make the perfect match in terms of a “good marriage”. My parents were such a union and they got married back in the 50’s. They were happily married for 50 years until my mother died. I think it depends on personality as to who you’re suited to be married to. My father thought he had the perfect marriage. Without my mother to take charge, he would not have been happy. There are pots for every cover as my grandma used to tell me! I don’t consider myself a “feminist” just a student of personality and relationship dynamics.
And another thing about Steve Arterburn: While in college he knocked up a girl and paid for her abortion.
So he has a history of sexual immorality; and he cannot seem to stay married.
With all due respect to everyone, I don’t think anyone should be taking dating, mating or marriage advice from Mr. Arterburn.
Irina Del Genio:
Based on the public information you’ve posted and based on red pill knowledge, the one more likely to be cold and alone is you.
From your FB page and based on your photos and publicly available info, you’re a Russian immigrant. You hold a Ph.D. in political science and are the assistant dean of a community college in the far west suburbs of Chicago. You’re attractive and in your late 30s to mid 40s. You used to be much more attractive than you are now. If you’re not married, you probably stil could be, but I’d guess you’re still being strong/independent ™. There isn’t a man alive who is good enough for you.
Let me guess. Either Siamese, or domestic long hair.
IBB at 11/18, 3:29pm
It is paragraphs like this that show you to be a WOMAN impersonating a man.
You’re not fooling anybody.
What a small world it is sometimes. Who would have thought that Irina del Genio (surely at least half-Italian, Deti?) would be based in Elgin Illinois, a small town, but one I am or was fairly familiar with. Irina lists as amongst her four favourite books Eat Pray Love and we (who will die cold and unloved – as if we care) are also of course big-fans of that book. In fact we talk of little else, when we are not sympathising with the plight of cat-lover Liz Jones. Frankly, Irina with the peroxide blonde hair is not really my type but from her photo I would have thought just a tad too young for the culinary, spiritual, and sensual delights of North Africa.
That’s an inherently female fear. Few men have fantasies of dying in the arms of some wimminz. When I kack it, I want to be skydiving or motorcycle jumping.
From your FB page and based on your photos and publicly available info, you’re a Russian immigrant.
Big bright red flag there.
You hold a Ph.D. in political science and are the assistant dean of a community college in the far west suburbs of Chicago.
Even bigger and brighter red flag, with a skull-and-bones emblazoned in the center.
You’re attractive and in your late 30s to mid 40s.
Stated another way, her expiration date is longer than the average, but when that date finally hits, the results are gonna be catastrophic (to get a clearer picture, compare the photos of model-grade Russian women that adorn international dating web sites [false advertising on a grand scale if ever there was such] with those of the stereotypical babushka. The latter very often started out as the former. Mother Nature is the biggest and most merciless bitch of all.)
You used to be much more attractive than you are now.
An attractive bitch is still a bitch.
If you’re not married, you probably stil could be, but I’d guess you’re still being strong/independent ™. There isn’t a man alive who is good enough for you.
But it all evens out because there probably isn’t a man alive who would spend more than five minutes in her company if he didn’t absolutely have to.
Busted it to get your stuff from here & comments + Rollo Tomassi’s treatment of it ON AIR WITH RYAN SEACREST this a.m. Listen live right now: http://www.KIISFM.com or listen on the iHeart app. I’ll have the archives, but you’ll have fun hearing it come alive… live on air in Los Angeles right now.
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That guy sent his daughter to college to become a doctor
and he thinks she is still a virgin?
because she tells him so?
if that is the case, another prescription of red pills is in order.
To pick up on the chap above who mentioned Russia, he is both right and wrong.
Yes, Russian society incentivizes women to marry younger (not always with good results), and the comments about less feminism in Russia is also on the money. But his comment about relocated women from that part of the world is inaccurate. A woman will mostly stay true to herself and what she believes in. Irrespective of her surroundings.
Western men should treat their local women like they want to be treated; with respect. They should court how they want to court. For sure, some women will not respond well to that. Some women are used to being “pushed” for sex as is noted above. But be the guy that is different! Just be cool and it will fall in your lap (literally).
Many men end up with Russian speaking women as wives (I am one of them). My wife is adorable. But I didn’t look to Russia because all the women I found at home were awful; far from it. Many British women (I am English) are ladies and do like to be courted. Many British women respond well to gentlemen and don’t play mind games.
The problem? There aren’t enough of the good ones to go around and life is short. Russia has a surplus.
I think men are too hung up about feminazis and feminists. You can find a good woman anywhere if you play by your own rules. Men who try to play games come unstuck. Behave respectfully with people and don’t be taken for a fool, and soon enough decent women – wherever they are from – will respond.
“A full 25% of all US White 30-34 year old women have yet to marry”
“Just shy of half of all late twenties White women have never married”
Why haven’t more people commented on these stats? These are shocking and depressing. Why do so many white American women reject their own men and reject creating families and children? Why are they such devotees of feminism?
Thanks for your comments, fellows. Sorry, cannot call you gentlemen – would be gross overstatement. Except for a few details (my name, and place of origins), none of you were correct – and it just gives my little brave heart hope that karma is, indeed, a b*ch 🙂
Time to disconnect from your toxic world. Enjoy your time with each other’s company 🙂
Irina has switched off her Facebook page, presumably embarrassed that we were able to discover so much about her. She is a girl who obviously had never previously read or perhaps understood the privacy settings Mr Zuckerburg provides. It was fun whilst it lasted.
“A woman who is 40, has no value compared to young women, and is only suitable for a man of age 65 or so.”
Well, judging by the appearance of her husband, that’s exactly what has happened.
Well, a quick Google search turns up:
http://www.nianow.com/irenedelgeniohotmailcom
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/irina-del-genio/4/72b/999
http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=711000
and so forth.
Perhaps it’s just a coincidence that you have (in the past five minutes) started to change your Facebook settings (or information)? In other words, it would seem that the above comments are correct.
And a couple more:
http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/irina-del-genio/
I’m just north of Ft Bragg, but I do my hunting in Raleigh. Much better class of girls then Fayetteville
Early 30’s chicks have the worse attitude in my experience and if Tom H is interviewing men to deflower his daughters….. well he’s doing it wrong. Can you imagine what delusional self righteous b!tches he produced?
What is an alpha female? Is that a chick who can take a punch?
“Oh, she already has a husband?”
Or did. I don’t really have any interest in doing an in-depth search to find more.
“It is not mutually exclusive for a woman to have a career and be capable of home-making skills, you know. Is part of the problem here that most or all are assuming Tom H’s daughters won’t make good wives because they are ‘career women’?
Or that they simply won’t make good wives because they are ‘of this generation’?”
Maybe “of this generation”, since generally university graduated and upper middle class Americans have the highest marriage and lowest divorce rates in the country. So perhaps that will change with the current bunch of graduating 20-somethings?
Ton
I’m just north of Ft Bragg, but I do my hunting in Raleigh. Much better class of girls then Fayetteville
Fatalville is for Jody…
MarcusD
Well, judging by the appearance of her husband, that’s exactly what has happened.
Indeed. In fact, del Genio is not a Russian name. Although it could be an Anglicization of a Russian name, another possibility is she exported herself through marriage to some poor beta, who soon became an AFC, and then found himself divorced.
The arrogance implied in her casual drive-by without bothering to cover her tracks, and the misandry displayed, both would fit in with a frivorcee’ who basically sexed her way to US residency.
I could be totally wrong about this, too, but the facts support it.
Ri Ri
Maybe “of this generation”, since generally university graduated and upper middle class Americans have the highest marriage and lowest divorce rates in the country. So perhaps that will change with the current bunch of graduating 20-somethings?
Most likely it will get worse, since the correlation between intelligence and college degree is breaking down. Carousel riders aren’t likely to be good wives, you see.
Yeah, its all fun and games when you hide behind dots and lines, isn’t it? You are a boring bunch. Any stupid 5-year old knows how to Goggle, so you are not that clever. Let your little fingers rest 🙂
Just to know that you would jump on any opportunity to show how bitter you are, is fun. Unlike you, I have nothing to hide, but you all confirmed that Big Brother is watching you, indeed and I don’t like that.
Ciao, fellas.
Not a great deal of anything interesting comes up. Conclusion: Either still married (and in IL), or divorced (nee Routchinskaya – filed in Nevada (before 2005))
Hmmm, we came to that independently.
What I find really interesting is that she’s changed her Facebook ID to throw us off, but Facebook maintains gallery links even if the main userpage no longer exists (since they link through Facebook ID number: 1092894116 – which I got before she changed the ID, and which redirects to the new one).
I see how many of you are busy with searching any and all info on me. How about I offer you to ask me directly. Any question. One condition – you all put your real photos here since you all are so brave and smart and…handsome? I am sure, you all are good looking 🙂 Deal?
[D: Would you like me to remove the comments with your personal information/links?]
“A woman who is 40, has no value compared to young women, and is only suitable for a man of age 65 or so.”
LOL! How many 40 year old women do you know who are coupled with 65 year old men?
I know one 40 year old who has a 62 year old life partner but the father of her child is 24.
The vast majority of couples are close to one another in age.
@TFH
Yes, then it’s her ex-husband, Robert Del Genio (who is listed on the Nevada divorce record). She was only married for a few years (she came from Russia in 2000 and divorced prior to 2005).
“Your daughters are post-30 years old. They are over the hill and have zero value in the marketplace. ”
Tom’s daughters appear to be melanated which means they look a youthful 20 at 30 (and going by the FB pic, they do) and will look 30 at 40 so at least they have that going for them.
They are pretty ladies, however they do not look like Aiswarya Rai like some other commenter suggested.
Yep, married May 4th, 2001 in Clark, Nevada. “Religious celebrant”, too. No record of any PhD dissertation under her name (various spellings), though. Strange.
“The main reason I don’t post as much is that I’ve lost my angst. I expatriated to Russia last year. There is no significant welfare state here and feminism hasn’t made much headway. Attracting a husband by 25 is a big deal to most girls here. It’s amazing to see the effort they put into it: last night walking home I saw girls in high heels and above-the-knee skirts walking around when it was snowing.”
Are you sure they were looking for “husbands”? In many countries walking around in that little clothing in the snow means one thing.
@TFH, AR
Looks like the “dying lonely in some cold bed” will be true for her.
Anonymous Reader was correct in his guess. It all seems to fit together quite nicely.
You got it all wrong, again. Mail-order bride? The kind you are looking for? No chance 🙂
Google is not that good, after all 😉
Like I said, ask me any questions you would like. Under your real names, though. And real pictures. The king is naked, and everyone knows that.
Dear Darlock, I think you should remove all my posts, but in 2-3 days, so everyone, who is curious, might ask me a question they all are dying to ask, but afraid to do so.
TFH, please get your facts straight. The only fact you got straight is a year of my marriage. Nothing else.
Hi Irina! I’m new to the conversation but I’ll ask.
TFH states, “She came as a Russian mail-order bride, divorced her victim shortly after citizenship was in hand”
So, did you pre-plan the marriage and divorce so that you could get US citizenship and then divorce once you got it?
Who initiated the divorce?
Are you even divorced?
” then cashed out to be a Cougar.”
So, are you a cougar? Meaning do you purposely target men more than 10 years younger than you for sexual or romantic relationships?
“Now, she is unhappy”
So, are you unhappy?
“…that Courtship $$ are no longer flowing to her at age 50 (apparently, she expected it to), and lashes out upon reading this article.”
Did you expect courtship to flow to you at 50?
Did you lash out?
What’s your story?
I hope everyone, who, at the age of 50, has a 25 year old girlfriend, knows that the only thing she really love is his deep pockets. Unless he is Brad Pitt.
Ri Ri, like I said, I would happily answer your questions after all of you post your real names and pictures. Otherwise, its not a fair game, and, I assume, you all decent human beings, aren’t you?
One thing I can tell you that I am a genuinely happy person. Always have been. Always will be.
It makes me sad to see what a relationship between men and women have become. More like a mutual hatred. Not good for this planet. Not good.
Oxbow
Why haven’t more people commented on these stats? These are shocking and depressing. Why do so many white American women reject their own men and reject creating families and children?
Just because they are not married it does not at all follow that said women are not bearing children. 40% of children born in the US last year were to unmarried women. For women aged 30 and under, the number is 50%.
And Dalrock’s been pointing out fact after fact for a few years, now.
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Irina Some Name Or Other
I hope everyone, who, at the age of 50, has a 25 year old girlfriend, knows that the only thing she really love is his deep pockets. Unless he is Brad Pitt.
And you base this on your own experience as a middle aged man, I’m sure…
Projecting your own prejudices onto others and assuming them to be true is a common human failing, but that doesn’t make it the truth.
Just like you have assumed a bunch of BS, Anonymous Reader One Or Other. We all make assumptions based on our own experiences. You think your assumptions are the truth. I think mine are. Shall we continue?
The truth is that everyone wants love and be loved. Can love exist between 50 year old man and 25 year old woman? Of course, it can. But how often do you see that?
Men who talk here about Russian brides, who wear heals and short skirts in sub-zero temperature, understand that it is “economy, stupid”, but still like to think it otherwise. I would explain it from a different point of view, but who is going to listen? Men only listen to themselves. Its more convenient this way. Do you see any women here? Does it tell you something? It tells me a lot.
Irena opened her bid here with this:
Interesting read. All of you fellows are good candidates for dying lonely in some cold bed. I wouldn’t feel any pity for you.
Now she writes this:
One thing I can tell you that I am a genuinely happy person. Always have been. Always will be.
It makes me sad to see what a relationship between men and women have become. More like a mutual hatred. Not good for this planet. Not good.
One of these things is not like the other…
“I hope everyone, who, at the age of 50, has a 25 year old girlfriend, knows that the only thing she really love is his deep pockets. Unless he is Brad Pitt.”
Even if he’s Brad Pitt. I mean, have you seen him lately? Ugg.
That being said like I mentioned before, I do know one 40 year old woman with a 62 year old life partner that she’s been with for 10 years now, and they truly are “soul mates”, so it does happen. However the father of her baby is 24.
“It makes me sad to see what a relationship between men and women have become. More like a mutual hatred. Not good for this planet. Not good.”
Well, for what its worth, in my family and in my social circles the men and women are happy and loving.
“Why haven’t more people commented on these stats? These are shocking and depressing. Why do so many white American women reject their own men and reject creating families and children?”
“Just because they are not married it does not at all follow that said women are not bearing children. 40% of children born in the US last year were to unmarried women. For women aged 30 and under, the number is 50%.”
Right. And just because many of us are not *legally* married does not mean we are not married, religiously or otherwise. Like I said before about 50% of the couples I know below 50 are not “legally married”, but they are married. Some of them for decades and going strong.
I knew there would be “no deal” guys. Its much more safe to post those things under ‘anonymous’. Had to try, sorry 🙂
I am not “entitled” to courtship and love. I know. But I have it anyway 🙂 To every 100 guys like you, there are always 2-3 who “get” it. I am not worried about the rest. To each his/her own.
Dear Darlock, you can remove all of my posts now – this is becoming boring.
Good luck to you all. And, of course, good luck to your partners 🙂
Oh, one thing I forgot… you wanted me to introduce you to 22-29 year old mail-order brides. You don’t need anyone to introduce you – go to numerous sites (Google it just like you Goggled me – I am sure you have sufficient skills for that) and introduce yourselves. Russia is still in deep s**t, so you might be welcomed, wrinkles, belies, and balding heads overlooked (sorry, had to make an assumption here, since I have no evidence otherwise).
You might find you one and only…or might not. Through years of working with abused immigrant women and victims of human trafficking, I’ve seen it all. Don’t even know how I didn’t become jaded. There are stories you don’t care about, so I am not going to even try.
There is a good documentary on the subject “From Russia With Love”. Kind of sums it up.
Most of those women wind up in homeless shelters, beaten and abused. I know, because I have worked there.
“Oh, one thing I forgot… you wanted me to introduce you to 22-29 year old mail-order brides. You don’t need anyone to introduce you – go to numerous sites (Google it just like you Goggled me – I am sure you have sufficient skills for that) and introduce yourselves. ”
Not only that – why don’t you guys just go to some ethnic cultural centers if you want to meet Russian or other foreign immigrant women? Immigrant communities are always having their festivals and its a great way to meet them.
Dirty old men are trying to find a pimp… nothing new. I hope you realize how disgusting you appear TFH, but what to expect?
In Russia we say: Don’t fight with a pig. Why? Because you get dirty, and the pig just enjoys it. As I can see.
As I said, karma is a bitch. Wishing you pleasant encounters with your karma. I am sure, she will find you. No matter what anonymous mug you are hiding behind.
Irina
I knew there would be “no deal” guys. Its much more safe to post those things under ‘anonymous’.
Perhaps you would prefer a letter of introduction to a genuine Nigerian prince, who is in great need of assistance to relocate some funds into America, eh?
You chose to start posting here with insults, and now you are surprised that some of us see no reason to trust you? Perhaps when you were 20 years younger, your natural beauty enabled you to get away with such obnoxious behavior in a personal way, but in the land of text and reason – that does not work.
You are reaping what you chose, deliberately, to sow.
Shaming works maybe the first time, maybe the second time… and about the third time going forward, it’s obvious that shaming is just a red herring approach to argumentation, even the one offering the argument has to realize that they’re employing the tactic because they can make a good reasoned argument. Why waste the words on an arguing methodology that’s so transparently inadequate? In your 50’s no less?
Irina, just to let you know, I’m a woman. I asked those questions of you in good faith because I believe you when you say TFH was inaccurate. I just wanted to know what’s the real story.
If you are indeed 50, you look very good for your age. Most (white) Americans look almost 70 by the time they are 50, even celebrities. Just look at all the wrinkles on Brad Pitt’s face.
Your face appears to not have many lines, considering your ethnic background. I’m sure if you wanted to be a “cougar” you easily could.
LOL! Disney Princesses ten years after…..
http://www.demilked.com/fallen-princesses-dina-goldstein/
For the life of me I can’t understand why some men want a Russian/Asian/South American bride. They are usually desperate and not interested in the men themselves but only what they can provide, such as citizenship, material wealth, and children. And once they get those things, they become real bitches, out only for themselves. They are as bad as feminists because in the end, it’s all about them and what they want, not the men. They are no more obsequious and catering to men than any American woman. They can become very needy and demanding, especially if the man doesn’t show them enough attention or give them enough money or material things. Often, no matter how much they get, it’s never enough. And then once they get married and have what they want, they’ll cheat on the side with the guys they really find attractive and sometimes even dump their husband at the first chance they can find. Why would any self-respecting guy let a woman make a fool out of himself this way? I’ve seen this scenario play out time and time again. I guess hope springs eternal and some guys are just blind. There are still nice Christian American women down South or out West who would make better prospects, and who would love a guy for real, I am sure.
“For the life of me I can’t understand why some men want a Russian/Asian/South American bride.”
Its not uncommon for Americans to take interest in other, older cultures. The USA is a young nation and hasn’t had the time yet to develop any sort of genuine culture of its own. We do a lot of dabbling and borrowing to make up for the void.
“They are usually desperate and not interested in the men themselves but only what they can provide, such as citizenship, material wealth, and children.”
I think its a mistake for a man or a woman to go into a marriage with the view that its “about me” or even “about us”. What it should really be about is the children. Dalrock blogged about how romance has come to replace the real purpose of marriage, and its not healthy.
“There are still nice Christian American women down South or out West who would make better prospects, and who would love a guy for real, I am sure.”
“Love a guy for real” might be a symptom of that misplaced romantic ideal. Its not about him or her, its about family. Not to say that sexual attraction and romance have no place, they do. But its just a place within the marriage, not the foundation of it.
Oh the pleasures of being eight hours ahead. Such that when I awake I can enjoy the lunacy which is fifty year-old mail-order bride and frivorcee, aging-cougar and tranny look-alike Irina with the name change.
Americans, I really have to say this: Has the level of academic calibre in your country now fallen so low that you choose to employ – and as an Assistant Dean, no less – a woman who is not entirely comprehensible in English – one of her students at rate My Prof gave her a dismissive 1* for clarity , although he described her as hot 🙂 – and whose effort at reasoning hardly extends beyond ranting and attempted shaming.
Even by the standards of previous drive-by women she is in a class of her own.
LMFAO
p.s. Did Elgin College I wonder validate (as all good schools do) her alleged Doctorate in Philosophy.
“The vast majority of couples are close to one another in age.”
True. However, the prospects for unattached 40-year-old women are on a par with those of an old geezer who’s already collected his free bus pass.
Which was the actual point being made. Outliers and NAWALT don’t count.
“For the life of me I can’t understand why some men want a Russian/Asian/South American bride.”
RiRi wrote:
Its not uncommon for Americans to take interest in other, older cultures. The USA is a young nation and hasn’t had the time yet to develop any sort of genuine culture of its own. We do a lot of dabbling and borrowing to make up for the void.”
It is not because of curiosity about other cultures or a lack of an American culture that men go for so-called ‘mail order’ Russian brides. It’s because they don’t like American women for their attitudes. Like many men on this page, they feel that American women are too strong and independent (and feminist) to make for the kind of relationship they’re looking for, and that women in these other cultures are more traditional. I’m just saying be careful what you wish for, because a lot of these foreign brides are just looking for a ticket to citizenship at any cost. The men become the mark of a scam, plus they can be just as bitchy and self centered as any American woman, just in a different way.
In an effort to understand American-Russian cooperation, I have felt it my duty to peruse the photos of Professor Irina – so kindly linked above at Facebook.
I have thus learned that: Irina comes Ekaterinburg (wasn’t that where they shot the last Tsar and his family?); Irina has an adult daughter who also seems to live in America – no where near as glamorous as her mother, at least not yet; Irina has two cats and there seems to be a third which is a kitten (readers at Dalrock always delight in a woman with moggies – well done there Irina); Irina is to be seen in many a photo with her many Beta Orbiters (another bonus point) – good looking affluent middle aged-guys who do not look as if they would hesitate in ‘nexting’ any woman that displeased them. Irina I suspect looks better in real-life than in the photos if her dates are anything to go by.
Do I get an A+ for this teacher?
Has the level of academic calibre in your country now fallen so low that you choose to employ – and as an Assistant Dean, no less – a woman who is not entirely comprehensible in English – one of her students at rate My Prof gave her a dismissive 1* for clarity , although he described her as hot – and whose effort at reasoning hardly extends beyond ranting and attempted shaming.
Yes.
MarcusD says: “No one is a virgin at 30 that grew up in this country.” …It’s about 10%, depending on who you ask, what their sample size is, and when they conducted their research.
Ironically, there are more male virgins than female virgins.
Ironic, because the knee-jerk assumption is that it is the men who are sowing their wild oats while the females are trying to hold onto their virginity as something precious. That may have been true in generations past, but not today.
Today it is women who are sowing their wild oats. Dong the 9 Dudes to Do Before You Die, I Mean Get Married thing. On the other hand, you’ve got a plethora of modern beta and below men who couldn’t get laid if their life depended on it.
Yea, there are plenty of virgins out there. Just not female virgins.
Want to know if your gf/wife is chaste? Just count the number of times that she refers to other women as sluts/skanks, either overtly or subtly. If it’s ten or more per day, she’s probably chaste. Just be sure and chase out any hypocrisy by casually discussing how so many wives are cheating on their husbands and calling other women sluts at the same time.
One showstopper question for all you wife-hunters: Do you [the prospective wife] believe that you have a right to own your own body after marriage? Do wives have a right to deny sex to their husbands?
Yeah, I took the red pill.
Tom H says: So how should a parent advise his intelligent daughter? If she prepares for early marriage, her intelligence may scare off suitors and she ends up without earning prospects. So what to do?
The concept “nobody likes a know it all” is literally beaten into smart males who use their intellect to poke fun at or put down other males at a very young age.
Intelligent young girls are never taught this lesson and are reluctant to tone down themselves because “why should I hide my intellect just to protect the feelings of a man?” They never learn the difference between hiding their intellect and having some humility about their intellect.
“Everybody’s ignorant about something.” That phrase helped me come to grips with the concept that while I was smart, I wasn’t necessarily all that and a bag of chips compared to others.
BTW, smart men do value intellect in women. Bill Clinton told his mom, who was appalled that her son would marry someone as frumpy as Hilliary, “I need someone I can talk to.” They want a woman they can talk to. They don’t want a woman that talks at them.
No, 8to12, that’s irrelevant to my question. The fact is, most men aren’t smart, so an intelligent woman’s SMV is relatively low for the large population of guys. Maybe there are smart guys out there who want an intelligent woman, but they are pretty slim pickings. A lot are autists like me who are difficult to live with. Others are more likely to be full of themselves, just like the intelligent women are. So, it’s a difficult situation.
Tom H:
“Want to know if your gf/wife is chaste? Just count the number of times that she refers to other women as sluts/skanks, either overtly or subtly.”
Disagree. This used to be true. It was true 30 years ago, when you were first married and when I was coming of age. It hasn’t been true since then.
You can never, ever tell if a girl is chaste or a virgin by the way she speaks or what she says, or the way she answers questions about her N, or even if she professes Christian faith.
Currently it seems the ways you tell if a woman is chaste or sexually experienced are the following:
1. Start talking generally about sex and see how she responds.
2. See how she responds to an attractive man or an alpha man who presses aggressively for physical contact – kissing, fondling, or further sexual contact.
Her response will be very, very different depending on the man she’s interacting with.
You are not going to know if your girls are virgins. They are not going to tell you. If you ask them if they are virgins, they will say “yes”, even if they are not. They will adopt differing personas when interacting with you; vis a vis interacting with their friends, vis a vis interacting with unattractive men; vis a vis interacting with attractive men.
Tom H;
A parent should advise his intelligent daughter to focus on her looks and femininity, and downplay and not feature her intelligence. Her intelligence will be a boon to her marriage and relationship. It will not, however, be a selling point to attract men. Female intelligence is something that some (not most, but SOME) men will want. Most men don’t care about female intelligence.
The fact is that most men care much less about whether a woman knows how to perform an appendectomy, or solve for X, or understands the Colorado River doctrine; and far more about the set of her face, whether she can give a competent blow job and whether she can cook a decent meal.
“most men aren’t smart, so an intelligent woman’s SMV is relatively low for the large population of guys.”
True, most men are not intelligent. But there are more intelligent men than there are intelligent women.
Tom, Tom. Tom. A woman’s intelligence has very little to do with her sexual market value. Her sexual market value is mostly looks, followed by her personality. Her intelligence will drive down her SMV only if she tries to feature it. Cads and players will blast right past that intelligence and run either uberdominant game or cocky asshole game. Works every time. To attractive men, female intelligence just changes the kind of game he’ll have to run on her.
“ Maybe there are smart guys out there who want an intelligent woman, but they are pretty slim pickings. A lot are autists like me who are difficult to live with. Others are more likely to be full of themselves, just like the intelligent women are. So, it’s a difficult situation.”
Most intelligent men want an intelligent woman, but the intelligence is only a plus. It’s not a selling point. Most men don’t care all that much about a woman’s intelligence when it comes to mate selection. Your daughters will eventually get married because they’re physically attractive, not because they’re smart.
The smart men out there that you’re seeing are the very few attractive intelligent men. That’s why you say they are “slim pickings”. There are many many unattractive intelligent men. Autistic and Asperger’s men are low SMV men because their personality difficulties make it hard for them to relate to and understand other people, and they don’t pick up on subtle attraction or interaction cues. Intelligent men who are “full of themselves” are either (1) oblivious to others’ interaction cues and thus unintelligent; or (2) arrogant and cocky; and thus will be attractive to at least a subset of women.
You still need to read some more.
deti,
Not true.
You know how many guys I knew who married only intelligent women because they wanted to increase their chances at breeding intelligent children? You know how many guys I knew who married only intelligent women because they knew they wouldn’t respect their dumb-sh-t wives a few years into the marriage and would (probably) wind up cheating on them with smart women they worked with?
IBB:
You are talking about MMV, marriage market value.
A woman’s intelligence increases her marriage market value.
SMV and MMV are two different things.
SMV is her worth and value for sex and dating.
MMV is her worth and value for marriage, child bearing, and child rearing.
Danica McKellar has a degree in mathematics and a mathematical theorem named after her. Very intelligent. But hot. Her SMV is entirely dependent on her looks, not her intelligence.
Geena Davis was hot back in her day. She’s also a Mensa member. Her SMV is because of her looks, not because she can solve two equations in two unknown variables.
IBB:
Then the guys you knew didn’t understand attraction or anything about it, or simply ignored attraction.
Ah, okay. I see the difference. I see your point. Thank you for clarifying. Not I sure I totally agree (as I’ve known a few men that were sexually attracted to a woman’s intelligence, as sexing a really smart woman makes some men feel much more dominant than sexing a dumb woman.)
Dear Deti:
I disagree. A good example to the contrary is Hedy Lamarr… Super hot actress of the 1940s, and certifiable genius (Lamarr was a scientist on her off-hours, and has several interesting patents to her name).
Married at least 5 times, with a couple of the marriages lasting only about a year, Lamarr died a spinster at the turn of the 21st century. Would I have banged? Hell yeah. I’d have loved to talk to her over dinner too. Marry her… forget about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr
Regards, Boxer
8oxer,
You want me to fix you up with the brain-dead gorgeous woman whose daddy offered me a house and business equity if only I would marry his brain-dead daughter? From looks, she was a 9. IQ? 85 maybe.
IBB:
The fact that I don’t think intelligence is correlated to increased MMV doesn’t imply a position to the converse. (I actually believe there’s a happy medium, but that wasn’t implied either).
I work around lots of women who are far brighter than I, and arguably more intelligent (talking raw cognitive ability) than most of the men in this conversation. Their personal lives aren’t any more functional than the average, and often their personal lives are decidedly substandard.
Regards, Boxer.
Ирина — Ты не самая красивая женщина в мире. You look OK, for a 50 year old, in all those photoshopped high contrast profile pics. You don’t look remotely good enough for any man to overlook your nasty, bitter, entitled attitude. Get over yourself. Clearly, it eats away at your fragile ego that you had to dupe a naive American man into marrying you, because no Russian man would take up your baggage. Take a chill pill, baba.
The point is for people not to get confused or to circulate misinformation about what is attractive and what is not.
There is a certain female blogger I know who insists that smart girls are the best for marriage. That might or might not be true. Either way, that does not mean intelligence in females is attractive. At best, female intelligence is neutral in terms of attraction. At worst it’s repellent. Most women hamsterbate that away by saying their intelligence is “intimidating”. No, it’s not intimidating; it’s a hassle. It also means she’ll be a hassle, and that she doesn’t really need him.
Female intelligence also doesn’t mean she’ll make a good wife. It means she MIGHT make a good wife if she applies her intelligence for the good of her man and her marriage.
“There is a certain female blogger I know who insists that smart girls are the best for marriage. That might or might not be true. Either way, that does not mean intelligence in females is attractive. ”
That has to be clarified to “physical attraction”. One can be attracted to a person’s intelligence without being physically attracted to her or him. And of course vice versa.
Similar with character. Some people hold Mother Theresa up as a woman of great character. Those that do so, rightly or wrongly, are attracted to what they perceive as good qualities in her. But would anyone ever hold her up as the ideal beauty? No. While they might seek some of her character qualities in a mate, they would not seek her looks in a mate.
Similarly, our eyes can be visually attracted to good looking people with low character. Doesn’t mean we’d want them to be our spouses.
“Clearly, it eats away at your fragile ego that you had to dupe a naive American man into marrying you, because no Russian man would take up your baggage.”
Russian men are world renown for being drunken wife beaters. I don’t know how accurate this portrayal is – maybe a little, maybe a lot, may not at all. But Russian are going to India and even China to find men. One wonders why they are doing so if Russian men are such great catches.
Deti: “Either way, that does not mean intelligence in females is attractive. ”
Ri Ri: “ That has to be clarified to “physical attraction”. One can be attracted to a person’s intelligence without being physically attracted to her or him. And of course vice versa. “
No, it does not have to be clarified. I wrote it exactly as I meant it.
Again, misinformation and confusion needs to be confronted and corrected.
Attraction for men is looks and personality.
Attraction for women is considerably more complex. It has mostly to do with the man’s confidence, dominance, and his ability to exert authority and influence in his own life and situations around him.
One is not “attracted to a person’s intelligence”. More specifically a man is not “attracted” to a woman’s intelligence. He might want an intelligent woman for good conversation, or to be a good mother for his children, or for a helpmeet. But that does not mean he finds that trait “attractive”. He finds it “desirable”.
A woman is not attracted to a man’s intelligence unless it affects his overall status vis a vis other men or gives him confidence and dominance. So it is not the intelligence per se that makes him attractive so much as it is her perception of how that intelligence elevates his status, confidence, or dominance. For example: Many intelligent men are attractive because they are far and away the most intelligent men in the room, which raises his confidence and dominance. Many intelligent men have used their intelligence to make a lot of money and get good at their jobs, which gives them boatloads of status.
That’s what you’re talking about.
“The vast majority of couples are close to one another in age.”
“True. However, the prospects for unattached 40-year-old women are on a par with those of an old geezer who’s already collected his free bus pass.
Which was the actual point being made. Outliers and NAWALT don’t count.”
Where? Again, single 40 somethings, whether divorced or never married (very few of those out there), who are in the North American dating scene are mostly dating other middle aged people, not old geezers, and not very young people either.
Dalrock, I disagree with you making a major distinction between SMV and MMV in the case of Tom H’s daughters. He is not asking advice for how to get men solely sexually attracted to his daughters. Going by the family photo he posted on Facebook, there are already plenty of men out there who are solely physically attracted to his two pretty daughters. That’s not difficult. If a woman has a pretty face and is not fat, many men will be sexually attracted to her. So what?
What he’s looking for is intelligent, healthy (including mental and emotional health), marriage-minded men who are the socio-economic equals of his daughters to be his sons-in-law.
His daughters already have SMV down pat. They are not fat and they are pretty. What Tom H wants to know is where are their male counterparts for marriage?
“That’s what you’re talking about.”
No. That’s not what I’m talking about. There’s a super hot guy in my ‘hood. The dude is really stupid and has no money or status. That doesn’t make him physically unappealing – at all. In fact, he’s in the top 5 of most physically attractive men I have ever seen in my life. Pure eye candy. Yummy!
As far as “personality”. A person’s personality is largely determined by their intelligence.
@8to12
“Ironically, there are more male virgins than female virgins.”
Yes, that is true, but only at a population level. For people under 24, women are more likely to be virgins. At 25, there are more male than female virgins, and the difference grows considerably. This is quite recent, though (last 15 or so years).
That’s not to say there aren’t women who take it seriously – there are, in my estimation, at least a few million who do (in the US).
@Tom H
“Want to know if your gf/wife is chaste?”
There are generally better ways to do that. In fact, there is significant overlap between young adult women, aged 18-24 who have tattoos and young adult women, aged 18-24 who are decidedly unchaste. In fact, in one study, only 3% of women who had tattoos were virgins. The correlation doesn’t hold for men, by the way. Anyway, you can ask fairly indirect questions, ones that measure impulsiveness (which is closer to being an independent variable), rather than about a single outcome.
http://simulacral-legendarium.blogspot.ca/2013/07/tattoos-and-body-modifications-links.html
http://simulacral-legendarium.blogspot.ca/2013/10/double-standards-and-changing-standards.html
http://simulacral-legendarium.blogspot.ca/2013/09/the-uneven-effects-of-sexual-revolution.html
Ri Ri:
Yes, that IS what you’re talking about.
Male attractiveness always comes back to status, confidence and dominance.
So Mr. Thugalicious from the ‘hood is Yummy. He’s attractive because he has looks which gives him confidence and dominance. I bet he gets laid like tile, and all the women you know KNOW he gets laid like tile, and that alone will give him status, confidence and dominance, and makes him attractive.
“As far as “personality”. A person’s personality is largely determined by their intelligence.”
No. Intelligence does not determine personality. I’ve known intelligent people who were incredibly clueless and ignorant personality and social-wise. We all know these people – the clueless math geek, the science nerd from school. I’ve known intelligent people who were and are very socially and emotionally high functioning. A prime example is Bill Clinton (who I don’t personally know). By all accounts he is shockingly intelligent. He’s a Rhodes scholar and one of the most accomplished politicians of his era. He also knows how to work a room like no other. People like him even if they disagree with him politically.
And I’ve known intelligent people who are everywhere in between.
Ri Ri, I suggest you read more as well.
“So Mr. Thugalicious from the ‘hood is Yummy. He’s attractive because he has looks which gives him confidence and dominance. I bet he gets laid like tile, and all the women you know KNOW he gets laid like tile, and that alone will give him status, confidence and dominance, and makes him attractive. ”
Who said anything about “thug”? Stereotype much? He does not have confidence or dominance He’s an introvert and stays to himself. He doesn’t get laid like tile because he’s alone most of the time. “and all the women you know KNOW he gets laid like tile,” You know the women I know? Interesting. Names? Maybe we can all have tea and biscuits.
” We all know these people – the clueless math geek, the science nerd from school. I’ve known intelligent people who were and are very socially and emotionally high functioning. ”
Interesting how you link geek to math and nerd to science but insist that intelligence has no bearing on personality.
“What Tom H wants to know is where are their male counterparts for marriage?”
Actually it’s daughter (singular). His unmarried unattached daughter is 30, a physician, and has “no lack of dates”.
Tom H’s daughter has so much education, status and “intelligence” of her own that her hypergamous instincts are running amok. (this is a situation Tom H helped create, by pushing his girls to overachieve.)
Thus, she really has only two broad classes of male counterparts.
1. The high earning, very intelligent but physically unattractive STEM nerds and Christian men; and
2. The ultra high status, intelligent, high earning players.
The men in #1 are good fits for her personality wise and will make good husbands. But they are not attractive men because they are socially unintelligent, not confident, not dominant, and have low to middle status vis a vis other men. They have few to no options.
The men in #2 are attractive to her and will make her tingle. This alone puts them in the running for possible marriage. But they are bad bets for marriage because these men have other options. While Tom H’s daughters are pretty, there are prettier women who will be (1) less demanding; (2) more submissive; (3) lower maintenance; and (4) younger. These men are not going to select Tom H’s daughters, because they don’t have to. These are not men who will pledge fidelity or wait for sex or wife it up to get sex because, again, they don’t have to.
Let us also not forget…she is tired of drama, men playing games, and just wants something real. (earl @November 16, 2013 at 9:51 am)
It took me a few days, but NO GAMES NEEDED OR WANTED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
translated from whore-speak into plain English is: No DISCOUNTS!!!!!! No EXCEPTIONS!!!!!!
lolzzz
OK Ri Ri. You’re a troll. There is no such thing as a totally hot guy “from the ‘hood” who has no confidence, no dominance, keeps to himself and doesn’t get laid. That animal doesn’t exist; that dog don’t hut.
Totally hot guys have women literally throwing themselves at them. Even Mr. Clueless would be able to figure that out.
I’m done with this one.
What Tom H wants to know is where are their male counterparts for marriage?
Back in the 20th century where they left them, of course.
Oh please deti, ‘hood doesn’t mean “ghetto”. Its slang for neighborhood. My rural-ish neighborhood is mostly middle class, I didn’t say he didn’t get laid. He might. But he doesn’t get laid like tile. He doesn’t socialize.
deti says: Most women hamsterbate that away by saying their intelligence is “intimidating”. No, it’s not intimidating; it’s a hassle. It also means she’ll be a hassle, and that she doesn’t really need him.
Women with a superiority complex are a hassle.
Unfortunately, intelligent girls tend to be uber praised growing up so they end up actually believing they are superior to others simply due to their intelligence level.
Intelligence is not an attractive trait in women, but it is a desirable trait. But it’s only desirable when combined with humility.
“Thus, she really has only two broad classes of male counterparts.
1. The high earning, very intelligent but physically unattractive STEM nerds and Christian men; and
2. The ultra high status, intelligent, high earning players.”
You live in a really dichotomous black/white, either/or, type inner world, don’t you? A world where all high earning and very intelligent men are either STEM or Christians (how many religions exist out there?) and all STEM men are physically unattractive.
Didn’t TFH suggest western women pair with Indian and Chinese men? How many of those men are Christian? For that matter, how many Anglo men are Christian anymore?
So the only choices in your world are high earning, intelligent and automatically ugly STEM Christian guys or “players”?
Funny, in my world I don’t know anyone who fits either narrow category.
…a post somewhere in the manosphere on how “Her Day” has become all about HER rather than THEM is long overdue, if it hasn’t already been written. (feeriker)
“A wedding is an orgy of female narcissism.”
– Matthew Fitzgerald, in Sex-ploytation
(how women use their bodies to extort money from men;1999)
“Intelligence is not an attractive trait in women, but it is a desirable trait. But it’s only desirable when
combined with humilityintelligently deployed.”There. FIFY 🙂
@deti. “I’m done with this one.”
I was getting a “Hopeless Neurotic” vibe, or whatever the troll at Rollo’s started off as. (Was “Cultural Marxist” or nearest equivalent at some point. Anyway, will go on and on and on like an ELIZA-bot, if given food).
(Yep, guilty. Just thought [again] that anyone is entitled to a fair crack of the whip. No fool like an old fool, eh? 😦 )
Ri Ri:
Please pay attention.
You talked about Tom H’s daughter. Dr. Daughter is 30 years old, physically attractive, intelligent, and a physician.
That means the following. ANY possible mate for her has to have the following characteristics or he won’t even get out of the starting gate:
1. Makes a good living. At least as much as she does, preferably more.
2. Has at least – AT LEAST – a baccalaureate degree in a high status, high earning field.
3. Has some status – some expertise and dominance and notoriety in his field.
That filters out all men – ALL MEN – except high earning men in STEM fields; and high earning, high status, high dominance players.
Dr. Daughter is not going to even consider a plumber even if he outearns her, because his status isn’t high enough.
Dr. Daughter is not going to even consider a man who earns less money than she does; because his status isn’t high enough. She will look down on him. He will know it and so will she.
That brings in high earning players (who tingle her but aren’t good bets for marriage and Tom H won’t like them even if Dr. Daughter will); and high earning STEM guys and Christian guys (who Tom H will Lurrrrve but whom Dr. Daughter will reject because they’re not hawt enough)
” high earning STEM guys and Christian guys (who Tom H will Lurrrrve but whom Dr. Daughter will reject because they’re not hawt enough)”
Still can’t figure out why you think STEM and Christian means automatically not-hot looking.
Actually, Ri Ri has nailed it. The key is to cast a wide net and have an efficient filter that will gather the tiny percentage of eligible men that DD (doctor daughter) would like. Of course, doesn’t mean that any of them would like her.
Career status likely wouldn’t matter too much to DD, but an interest in ballroom and swing dancing and hiking likely would mitigate a low career status. She requires a fairly devout theologically-conservative Protestant guy as well. Looks probably wouldn’t be a major factor to her, but intelligence would as well as considerate behavior and a good personality.
“Totally hot guys have women literally throwing themselves at them.”
Even betas like me have women making advances. Just two nights ago I got 3 ioi’s from a pretty mid-20s chick who was dressed to kill when I inadvertently gave a PU signal. Then she kept eyeing me from various places around the room. (Ladies were rotating partners.) Come to think of it, a couple of other 20’s chicks were giggling when they were around me. [What, was my fly unzipped again? lol] (Thanks to one of the commenters here who mentioned kino and ioi’s! I had no idea about PU signals!) Oh, the strange and wonderful world of autists in society.
Hold up there, buddy! Being an autist you might be interpreting ioi’s where there are none.
I remember when I was in my early 20s and recruiting for a certain large-group awareness training event. I kept hounding this one very older (and not the least bit attractive) man in his mid-late 40s and he went about telling people that I was after him romantically.
” Of course, doesn’t mean that any of them would like her.
Career status likely wouldn’t matter too much to DD, but an interest in ballroom and swing dancing and hiking likely would mitigate a low career status. ”
So if he’s not a dancer and not a hiker then its a deal-breaker?
RI Ri:
“Still can’t figure out why you think STEM and Christian means automatically not-hot looking.”
You must have never heard of generalization. We use them around here, because they are generally true.
And I didn’t say “not hot looking”. I said “unattractive” or “not hawt enough”. There’s a difference.
It is generally true that men in STEM fields are not attractive because, generally, they are socially stunted or autistic/aspies, or not socially intelligent, or don’t pick up on social interaction cues.
You are not getting it. For a man to be attractive, he does not have to look like Brad Pitt or Orlando Bloom or George Clooney, though it helps. He can make up for this usually with his confidence, dominance and status.
For men, attractive does not always mean good looking. For women, attractive almost always means good looking.
Tom H:
You want Dr. Daughter to take advice from Ri Ri? Fine. She’ll marry down, or marry up to a man who will cheat on her.
In five years, Dr. Daughter will be hiring a divorce lawyer.
I’m not interested in advising people who are determined not to listen.
Tom H, does your daughter date people who work in the hospital that she does?
*sigh*
Ahem.
Ri Ri is a well-known manosphere troll who has gone by dozens of different handles now.
On my site alone she’s used five or six: Aishwarya, Mandy, a few others. She attempted to use Ri Ri but I caught her this time. Usually she has a different IP address each time she comes aboard, though it’s always coming from the same state and county, but she ends up giving herself away pretty quickly. This time she kept the same IP address from when she was banned as Mandy at my place, so I caught it before I approved her Ri Ri comments.
I think she might also have gone by Indian Grandmother on other people’s sites, though she never used that on my site.
Just so you know.
Curses. Trolled again.
SSM, thanks.
Some of the Ri Ri text up thread resembled Indian Grandmother, and made me say “Rut Roh…” but to verify I would have had to take some of the bait and yank on the line, to see who’s in the boat trolling this particular pond. No time for that. IP confirmation is always good.
@Ri Ri
Not sure why you keep talking about looks. Deti is talking about attractiveness, not looks. Most women are not looks-oriented when it comes to what they find attractive like men are.
I’ve read that ~20% of women are looks-oriented in a similar way to men. Maybe you’re one of those. But for most women, their perception of a man’s attractiveness has little to do with his physical appearance. Many very old, wrinkly, and frankly gross-looking male celebrities are still beating the attractive women off with a stick (e.g. Jack Nicholson). It would be difficult to find an equivalent female (Demi Moore being the only example I can think of, and she got cheated on).
A high-earning, brilliant, upstanding, Christian STEM guy is unlikely to be perceived as attractive by most women, as they tend to have poor social skills and do not come across as dominant or confident. I know this because I was one of those until I learned some game. What physical attractiveness I have was there before I learned game, but did me no good because if a man is unable to project confidence, his positive attributes do not translate to attraction in women.
@Ri Ri
Re: ioi’s I squeezed her hand–she squeezed back (I was excited about us doing a step properly.) She twirled her hair and giggled afterwards. I think that’s three ioi’s. She also seemed quite “touchy-feely” with me the next time we danced, and, again, she seemed to catch my eye a few times. Two more ioi’s. I’m more likely to miss signals than create signals that aren’t there, I think. Oh, also, I have a habit of greeting all lesson dance partners by smiling broadly and saying Hi [name], how are you? I don’t think that all the guys do that and the girls usually smile back and some giggle, especially if they’re a little nervous. The chick who squeezed my hand didn’t appear nervous in the least. Quite confident, in fact. Well, maybe her giggle after the hand squeeze seemed a little nervous.
As long as I don’t overthink it, chicks seem to respond to me, even if I only flirt with a little smile. Maybe I compliment them on their appearance as well.
“So if he’s not a dancer and not a hiker then its a deal-breaker?” Not necessarily.
“Tom H, does your daughter date people who work in the hospital that she does?” Idk.
@deti: “You want Dr. Daughter to take advice from Ri Ri? Fine. She’ll marry down, or marry up to a man who will cheat on her.
In five years, Dr. Daughter will be hiring a divorce lawyer. ” Maybe if she marries up. Not necessarily if she marries down. She’s not all that hypergamous. What was your suggestion? Marry sideways?
Tom H
She’s not all that hypergamous.
Define hypergamy.
Hypergamy: A hypothesis that a woman always seeks the man with the greatest ability to provide and the most attractive.
I was around the same age as my wife (a little younger, actually, mid 20s) when I proposed to her. She was beautiful and virgin. I wasn’t earning diddly and she was pulling in a nice paycheck. My wife had been chased by a doctor and a wealthy, older hospital executive when she was single, but she chose me. My wife obviously wasn’t very hypergamous. She’s always been a homebody with few friends who she rarely talks to. No weird phone calls. Pretty obviously chaste, like me, for 30-odd years.
Now, how do you explain the outcome other than to say that my wife is an outlier?
Tom H., why do you believe that your Doctor Daughter is “not all that hypergamous”?
Tom H gina tingle “most attractive” could be anything. and an outlier though not so uncommon for Asian women in general.
anon: Based on the guys she has been willing to date. None were alphas or high betas. She looks for theologically conservative fairly devout Protestants primarily and people with some sort of career. She’d likely be happy with an engineer who met the other qualifications.
@greyghost: what is “gina tingle”?
How do you know what she says is true?
anon: I know her character. She wouldn’t complain to me about all the guys pushing for sex if she was doing it, I think. There are all kinds of clues in what she talks about that support my conclusion. She complains about girlfriends who shut her out because she won’t live with guys they recommend. Her girlfriends think she’s weird. She was called “the Nun” at her conservative Protestant college by other girls. That college was very old school, and she was more conservative than it was. She’s not guarded at all when she talks with her parents. Not sure how to express it–just a thousand different little clues.
figured it out
There likely are men around her who on paper fulfill her requirements, however she is not attracted to them. It is quite possible she is attracted to men who do not fulfill her requirements, per the complaints.
This is why I asked about hypergamy.
“She looks for theologically conservative fairly devout Protestants primarily and people with some sort of career”
“theologically conservative” (dogma that Men, by existing, have screwed up) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVfIyD7u5bA
“fairly devout Protestant” (Men, by existing, have screwed up, dedicated to admitting this daily, begging for forgiveness for screwing up and to learning how he should act better)
“people with some sort of career” (no entrepreneurs or anyone with talent that earns a great money – that’s fake… ONLY a secure, stable cubicle job since, of course, that can’t be outsourced or given to someone deemed superior)
Hmmm…
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=839111
@livefearless
Isn’t being an entrepreneur considered a career? Certainly, anyone with a lot of money who doesn’t need to work would also be acceptable, as long as they used their time wisely, I would think.
Oh, did I forget to add this one time that she rejects people who insistently push for sex?
Tom H,
I’ve stayed out of this so far, but since you brought this up, “She’d likely be happy with an engineer who met the other qualifications,” I have to ask:
What does his profession have to do with anything? Is she looking for a husband, or someone to design an electrical system?
If she’s only willing to choose a man who is a doctor, or lawyer, or engineer, etc, how is she any different from every other woman who’s looking to snag a top-earning guy? Isn’t that one of the top traits that nearly ALL women want? As a conservative Christian woman wanting to marry, shouldn’t she be looking for a man with the attributes of a good Christian husband, rather than following the worldly standard of “makes a lot of money in a profession?”
It’s about trade-offs. It’s about what she brings to the table and what she’s willing to accept. Let’s assume that everything you think is true about your daughter is correct: since I don’t know you or her I have no reason to think otherwise.
If she wants an intelligent man, and she sets the floor as low as only one Standard Deviation above the norm, she’s already eliminated 84% of the male population. Now income: the average doctor in the U.S. makes around $180,000 gross income, which means that your daughter is either in the top 1% of wage earners or close to it. Unless she’s willing to eliminate a very large portion of the remaining unmarried men with I.Q.s at or above 115, she needs to consider men who make a LOT less money than she does. An engineer her age is likely to make about half of her salary. There is a positive correlation between high I.Q. and high wages, which works in her favor, but she apparently wants a man with both traits. Now age: roughly 20.2% of the male population is between the ages of 35 and 49, which is probably her target age range – that’s 4/5 of the male population eliminated right there. Since she’s a serious Christian she’ll only marry a man who is similarly serious – that is rightly a deal-breaker for a serious Christian. However, this presents a problem for her in that any marriage-minded, serious Christian man who possesses just those three traits (high intelligence, good salary, 35-49), is almost certainly already married.
And I’ve not even addressed baggage like ex-wives, kids, etc. Will she accept a guy with lots of baggage, or only a guy who’s been like her all his life? The former means lots of red flags, while the latter eliminates almost the entire pool of eligible men (which is already a demographic puddle). Nor have I address physical attributes like height. Does she have a floor for that? Taller than her? At least her height? 5’6″? 5’3″? 5’0″? Bell curves are easy to find: pick a value and do the math. Does he have to be athletic? Does he have to be Caucasian or Asian? Every criterion she has further restricts the pool of men she’ll find suitable.
And of course there’s no guarantee that she’ll be sufficiently attracted to any individual man who possesses all those traits, or that he’ll be sufficiently attracted to her. A guy like that would have a lot of options – would she be in his league? And remember that most of her accomplishments add little or nothing to her MMV. She makes good money while shes single and childless, but how much will she earn when she’s neither? Her current salary and credentials don’t translate into higher MMV unless she’s going to be part of a “professional couple” with one child… maybe.
I wish her well, but the odds are long and they get longer every day.
@Lyn87
Your analysis looks on target except that she will likely make a marriage work while continuing to practice medicine. It’s not uncommon for two doctors to be married, so the MMV is pretty good for a woman doctor as is knowledge of the doctor MMP. I’m not sure about the divorce rate for doctor couples. I’m sure that doctor couples spend an unusual amount of time apart. Doctor couples can probably afford to hire a nanny and cook. I wouldn’t pay too much attention to the 180K average for doctors. That is skewed by region and specialty. In her area, lots make a lot more. If she’s willing to travel, she could easily make $300k starting out in a rural area since there’s such a demand for her specialty in rural areas.
I think that her requirements allow only for chaste men, including many widowers and divorcees, which widens her MMP options. She might require a polygraph test regarding chastity, Idk. I would if that were important to me since men would lie about that just like women.
Tom H:
“she will likely make a marriage work while continuing to practice medicine.”
“the MMV is pretty good for a woman doctor as is knowledge of the doctor MMP.”
“I’m sure that doctor couples spend an unusual amount of time apart. Doctor couples can probably afford to hire a nanny and cook. “
“If she’s willing to travel”
Tom H, do yourself a favor and have Dr. Daughter get a good divorce lawyer right now. Better yet, tell her to prepare for spinsterhood and for no kids. If she’s not going to raise her kids, why have them in the first place?
Nanny? Cook? Sheesh. Just send them to a kid farm and have them grown.
“I think that her requirements allow only for chaste men, including many widowers and divorcees, which widens her MMP options. She might require a polygraph test regarding chastity”
So your daughter wants a chaste man and is religious but would marry a divorcee? Seriously?
A polygraph for chastity? A POLYGRAPH??!!
Your daughters are the ones who should be proving their chastity to any eligible men. They are the ones who should be completing questionnaires, submitting to OBGYN exams, being tested for STDs and fertility, and sitting for lie detector tests.
There is no way on God’s green earth I’d submit to any polygraph for any woman.
You’re stark raving mad if you think any man would submit to a lie detector test for a possible relationship.
Word.
Did I get blocked from commenting?
[D: Not by me. Askimet binned your comments (including this one) for some reason. I’m fishing them out.]
“Daughters are the ones who should be proving their chastity”
” submitting to gynecology exams”
WTF?
Can someone tell me if we are in the cave period. Wow!
@deti,
Sure, if I were thinking about marrying a woman, I’d want her to submit to a polygraph test about a few things. I’d pay for the cost unless she was caught lying about something.
Yeah, both parties should submit to all kinds of prenup tests, including STDs, financial, marital records search, criminal background check, etc. Fertility test is a good idea, too, for both parties, if not too expensive.
Divorce is allowed in the case of infidelity, of course. Not sure why you think that this is against someone’s religion. Pretty universal.
Not sure why you think that due diligence is somehow wacko?
Cool. Thanks man!
Dear Tom H:
I don’t think too many here would be too angry at a woman for divorcing a husband for banging another woman. That is, after all, the purpose of marriage — to keep the sexual issue within the walls of the family home.
I think the issue I have is just how the concept of “cheating” has been redefined to include almost anything. It’s reasonable to expect a married man to stay faithful to his wife (and in this age of AIDS and Herpes, it’s good sense too). It’s not really reasonable to expect the average married dude not to check out the waitress. Men do that instinctively. I also think that it’s reasonable for a husband to occasionally look at a skin-mag — provided it doesn’t intrude on the sexual relationship he has with his wife. His first job is to keep her satisfied, and vice-versa.
“He cheated!” is now used in almost any (self-serving) context to justify busting up a marriage. The result is that “cheating” now encompasses anything men do that might give them some minor amusement or alleviate boredom, which leads to the concept being meaningless.
Regards, Boxer
@8oxer
Thanks, man, hadn’t heard that.
I’m always flirting with the ladies a *little*–used to be to keep my skills sharp, but now it’s just habit. Guess that’s me keeping the plates spinning. 🙂 Oooooooh, I must be cheating. P
“she rejects people who insistently push for sex”
This is confusing. Women used to reject me for being unwilling to have sex with them. That was, of course, prior to my spending five figures to understand this stuff that’s now available for free in resources like this one.
@Tom H I hear you. The truth, however, is that women – Christian women – in general and in my experience – are the ones pushing for sex. Don’t believe it? As I’ve stated before. With my involvement in creating popularity of projects like the “Fifty Shades of Grey” trilogy, there’s solid proof that most of its (women) readers would call themselves believers in God. The genre has a name coined by women: Mommy Porn. It is filled with BDSM. Why are Christian women pushing for sex? Perhaps it’s the most popular genre they find pleasure in reading.
Rollo Tomassi explains why women aren’t attracted to men that do not push for sex in his amazing book “The Rational Male” – but for those that cannot afford the less than $10 U S cost, and for those that think they know it all already, he explains it, with perfect clarity in this article: http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/04/taking-things-slow/
Further, there must be genuine desire on her part. The “she rejects people who insistently push for sex” meme means she does not have genuine desire for these males… or, it means she has the desire and plans to remain a virgin until Dr. Perfect suddenly appears in front of her. Women want to marry men that other women genuinely desire to have sex with: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B6C5qnf_xQ
My friend Lori Gottlieb would tell your daughters to stop holding out for Mr. Right… he doesn’t want to marry your career.
Tom H,
A few things. If she’s going to continue practicing medicine full time, then she can’t be a mother to any children she has. Hiring an au pair to cook, clean, and watch the kids just means she’s the one who pays their de facto mother to raise them. Then when that au pair leaves and another comes in, the kids get a new primary caregiver. That’s likely to happen several times as they grow up. Is that how you would advise your daughter to treat your grandchildren? As Deti asked, why have kids if she’s not going to raise them? Other options are to quite practicing medicine, in which case her credentials are worth exactly nothing to anyone. Or she can split the difference and go part-time, which also splits the advantages and disadvantages of both. Finally, she can marry a house-husband so the kids have a full-time parent. Is she willing to do that long-term… with ALL that entails? (By the way – if she wants kids she needs to concentrate on the low end of the 35-49 age bracket: her fertility is already on the way down and is about to go off a cliff. A guy in his late-40’s probably isn’t too keen on knocking up his 35-year-old wife on their wedding night, but if she wants kids, she needs to get going NOW. Spending a few years getting to know each other before the spawning begins is no longer in the cards for her.)
As for the second highlight: that doesn’t widen her options: it narrows them… A LOT. There are few widowers in that age bracket, most divorcees are Biblically-ineligable to remarry (I assume that matters to her), and most lifelong bachelors have not practiced voluntary celibacy all their lives (the involuntary celibates are probably not is her league).
Make of this what you will, but the kind of man you envision your daughter marrying would be the Chairman of the “Apex Alphas Among Apex Alphas Executive Committee” (or 5AEC as we call it. Deti, it’s your turn to bring the sandwiches to the next meeting). The guys like that who were marriage-minded almost certainly tied the knot (and kept it tied) long ago.
Your daughter made choices (perhaps laudable ones), but the choice to go down one path often means we cannot go down another. She may be past the point where the “Wife and Mother” path is available to her unless she’s willing to drastically adjust her expectations for a mate, her career, or both. The bin has been picked over pretty thoroughly by the time a woman makes it to 35, and there aren’t many 5AEC-types left – she may get the best of what’s left, but what’s available may not meet her standards. Again, if she’s all you say she is then she may be a prize indeed… I wish her well. I’m not trying to “harsh your buzz” – I’m just doing the math.
I have to thank Irina (who apparently must be bored out of her mind to continue frequenting a site that is the province of what she calls “boring” and “bitter” men) for validating the accuracy of the stereotype of the Russian gold-digger who marries her way into the Anglosphere. Fortunately for her, there are still plenty of desperate schlubs out there with more money and testosterone than brains (or self-respect) who will be more than willing to give her another ride on the carousel if only she asks for it.
Have fun with it while it lasts, sweetie. Even someone like you who can postpone the ravages of Mother Nature for a few years can’t do so indefinitely – and since Mother doesn’t appreciate people who toy with her or deny her, she’ll certainly strike back with a vengeance.
@Lyn87
I’m sure there are a few possibilities out there–she probably will need to hire a topnotch matchmaker to find them though.
Tom H,
That’s true. There are some very high-end matchmaking services for people in your daughter’s demographic group. I understand that the men pay big bucks (that screens out players – and the middlebrow set – pretty thoroughly), although the women probably don’t pay as much… or at all. It’s worth a shot if it’s cheap or free, I suppose. I met my wife through a dating service, after all, so I cant knock them categorically.
… also, the kind of people who make their living matching up $300,000-a-year female doctors can probably tell her whether her expectations are realistic better than any of us can.
“not all that hypergamous”
ROTFLMFAO.
You might as well have said “not all that pregnant.”
Tom H, get her to take up Scuba Diving to meet a man. The single men outnumber single women divers by a huge margin. The expense of diving, especially to exoctic locations keeps out most losers. She can meet a large number of high income men with out the pressure of dating scenes. It is not dangerous or scary like in the movies.
SO TRUE. A few years ago I had a pastor tell me that a woman in his church was divorcing her husband and she wanted to know if he thought it was okay. His “offense” was that he was going to bars to drink. Nobody had any indication that he was sleeping around, but the pastor told her it was okay because there were women at the bars, and he probably looked, and since Matthew 5:28 says, “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart,” that he was probably guilty of adultery, and thus she was justified in blowing up the marriage.
You can’t make this up.
@Lyn87 @Tom H
“high-end matchmaking services for people in your daughter’s demographic group. I understand that the men pay big bucks”
Men do NOT pay the big bucks for these. Women do.
I have a friend that’s a doctor, 31, blonde, super attractive, no children, Christian etc. She’s considering several different services. They each charge women thousands of dollars. It’s free for men, and they work hard to try to recruit men like us.
@Lyn87 @8oxer The only audience that matters (women) experience the embedded “truth” that only MEN cheat every hour of every day. Every week thousands of letters come, so every week the narratives increase on-air ratings with women ages six and older:
.. [the required Manicorn] .. “is almost certainly already married. “
Nail. Head. Bishboshbashjobdone, Lyn87, I salute you.
Holy Spinsters, Batman! I had no idea… I fly a lot so I see adverts for these services in the magazines they put in the seat-back pockets. They never say anything about price… I just assumed men pay more because men are thought of as the “pursuers.” Now that I think about it I guess it kinda’ makes sense to me… the women are paying for a chance for early retirement in the lap of luxury, while the men are the bait who benefit from someone screening out the obviously unsuitable ones.
@Lyn87 Bingo! Here’s a sample from Lori Gottlieb’s book that addresses this truth: http://books.google.com/books?id=cXT7pKChZF8C&lpg=PT74&ots=Pz5XLL6N4z&dq=lori%20gottlieb%20matchmaking%20professional&pg=PT74#v=onepage&q=lori%20gottlieb%20matchmaking%20professional&f=false
Again, those companies work to recruit men while charging the women.
Women read magazines. Yes… remember the list (100% women) of editors in charge of InStyle, the most popular women’s magazine. The culture creation industry executives are all women, unless you’re being sought after by those high-end matchmaking services, the messages (embedded by women editors) all around us make it appear that men are either players/cheaters … or desperate beta chumps.
I was thinking about game and how I used it recently in a very minor way. I’m doing this dance event with a partner and we needed to develop chemistry. She’s attractive, but I was feeling nothing because she had this Ice Queen thing going. So, I told her that I was feeling nothing and it was probably because of her subconscious Ice Queen defense. Right away she dropped the defense and started flirting with me and we finally got some chemistry. The key was to let her know that she was doing nothing for me and she responded predictably by making herself more attractive. So, sometimes game has some uses outside of PUA and relationships.
It’s not as far-fetched as it sounds… well… maybe the polygraph thing is an exaggeration…
…. but the principle is sound. Women initiate 70% of divorces, and the single biggest predictor of divorce is whether the bride had other sexual partners. A significant percentage of women (based on extrapolating the numbers, it must be at least half) pair-bond with the first man they have sex with – she pair-bonds to the degree that she does not pair-bond with her husband unless he’s the one she gave her virginity to. The converse is not true for men to nearly the same degree. So yeah… a woman ought to come to the marriage bed as a virgin (unless she’s a widow or a rape victim), and a man has the right to know that before he says, “I do.” Considering that we go to extreme lengths to check every single irrelevant detail about a guy who works within five miles of a child despite the negligible risk, it’s not unreasonable for a man (who can lose everything to a wife who knows how to dial 9-1-1 and say the words, “I’m afraid”) to check and double-check the person who has 50/50 odds of wrecking his life.
As for gyno exams… same deal. STDs are rampant, and a huge percentage of young women have them without even knowing it. Obviously a guy should get checked too, but a lot of the STDs that are epidemic among young women cause fertility problems, sexual dysfunctions, and even early death. Some STDs are passed to the children either in utero or during birth, so she ought to be checked even if she’s a virgin.
Random Angeleno said:
you can’t expect the incentives to change and the men not respond to that change over time
But this is esactly what all Leftists expect – and Feminists are huge Leftists.
Witness the utter shock (possibly feigned) at the consequences of Obamacare.
Leftists consistently ignore 2 very basic facts and the ways those facts interact:
– Incentives matter
– Actions have consequences
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Unless they’re among the still tiny number of girls raised as atheists from childhood, they’ve chosen to become atheist party girls in order to run with the players. Prodigal Daughters, we might call ’em.
I know of a young man who met a girl when he left home to go to a small, rural Methodist college. He was a virgin, she wasn’t. He was still a virgin on their wedding day four years later, though she invariably pushed to make it otherwise. (The marriage didn’t last and who here is surprised by that?. No kids. We all told him how lucky he was for that.)
The whole “the bible* is just wrong on that” thing began with Martin Luther. It’s not the Pope whom Protestants are protesting, eh?
Footnote(s) (All the best comments have ’em.)
* The Bible is a library of books usually bound into a single volume codex and known among Christians as the Word of God.
Heh. It wasn’t your 1980 in 1980 Anon.
In 1980, fewer than 1 in 5 women over 20 surveyed were virgins. Among men, it was a little more than 1 in 6.
I’ll integrate over the entire opinion space. Lessee, take (n-1)/n and let n grow large. Hmmm. Whaddya know, the result approaches 1. Virtually 100% of the females are unworthy sluts!
(I might be wrong. I don’t do math, I’m only good at arithmetic.)
I’ll integrate over the entire opinion space. Lessee, take (n-1)/n and let n grow large. Hmmm. Whaddya know, the result approaches 1. Virtually 100% of the females are unworthy sluts!
(I might be wrong. I don’t do math, I’m only good at arithmetic.)
Well, I think MB was suggesting that women are labeling other women that way, and that he did say “thinks”. To be honest, it’s most likely a cognitive bias on the part of women who do such things, anyhow.
If a women being an “unworthy slut” requires only one other person to label her as such, then 100% of the population would be covered, I suppose (in theory). But really, ~3500000000 – 1 (~0.999999999%) is rather unbelievable. I don’t think this “GSP” thing holds, since some women are invariably incapable of such actions that would fall under the widest definition of “slut”. In fact, I would reinvent “GSP” to be “the labeling of other women as the extreme of the opposite [or complement] of their own ideal behavioural standard.” And “ideal behavioural standard” being what they self-perceive or hold as their goal. So, a women who is a “prude” will label other women as “sluts” and vice versa. Etc.
Basically, a cognitive bias.
Me: “Oh, the problem can’t be with the young men who invariably push for sex before marriage.”
[context was my daughter’s problems with suitors]
Michael Elyi bleated:
“He really thinks this is the root of all problems.”
No, you are either ignoring context and misunderstanding my position or you are deliberately lying about it. Women obviously also push for sex before marriage, though it’s less common in my experience (though one woman in the last two weeks was giving me eyes that left no doubt about her intentions). Women don’t need to push just to have sex since there’s an abundance of SMP suitors with high enough SMV to attract them. Of course, if a woman wants to have sex with a particular guy, then she may have to push if he doesn’t want to. But that isn’t relevant to my daughter’s situation.
Interesting that there are more men who are virgins than women. Back in 1980, I wasn’t one of them. I wonder at what age over half of men have lost their virginity?
And I have another question:
Why would a man want to dip his wick into a cock-carousel-riding skankhole and get sloppy fifteenths?
“Why would a man want to dip his wick into a cock-carousel-riding skankhole and get sloppy fifteenths?”
Because he feels he has no choice – either because of lack of options, or because of coercion from fellow pew-warmers (e.g. the classic: “you need to forgive and forget” or “stop judging” or “it’s who they are now” etc etc etc).
Go on to any Christian forum and ask whether it is okay for a man to insist on a zero-N woman. You will not be treated very nicely. (It’s okay for women to insist on zero-N men, but that’s to be expected.)
Oh, well, fuck the Christian forums. My autism and dominance incline me towards roguedom, for certain. This place is very rogue-ish.
It’s because of the search for low N-count (SFLNC) that people might consider lie-detector tests for fiancées. If the women won’t agree to it, send them packing. Same goes for women and SFLNC–send the guys packing if they won’t agree to due diligence.
The manosphere has been a great help to me in understanding women. Thanks, Dalrock and all you other guys. I haven’t even been aware of shit-tests my wife was throwing at me and now I can at least recognize them after the fact. I also now understand a little more what attributes she looks for to see me as her alpha. I didn’t see before why wearing one of my favorite T-shirts with holes in the armpits was worth a big fight and now I get it. Also, she wanted me to argue with mgmt. at a fast food restaurant about an order that they screwed up and I didn’t see why it was worth the trouble. Now I have to find out more about what she looks for in me to see her alpha. Part of it is just working in the yard and fixing things. She won’t admit it, but I think that lifting weights also helps. Part of it is good manners, especially towards her. Part of it is just making decisions and persuading her.
Funny, after 34 years of marriage and I just find out about shit tests. Guess that’s what that was when my gf (now my wife) took a job far away and I had to chase her. We had a long distance relationship and she was seeing another guy casually until I arrived.
Back in the days when men were fighting bandits and thieves to protect their homes, maybe women had more cause for gina tingles. With fewer violence problems in some areas, maybe that’s why women get fewer gina tingles today. Maybe it’s time to take them on safari–hunting dangerous game?
@Tom H:
Maybe it’s time to stop caring what makes women tingle, and instead pursue our lives as followers of Christ, not followers of women.
Oddly enough, my utter disregard for women’s feelings and my lack of concern for their acceptance has me swimming in an ocean of available females, and few (if any) of them have been found worthy of auditioning for the title of Mrs Just.
@Aaron
So, is the pursuit of wisdom somehow divorced from following Christ? Just a thought.
@Tom H
Figuring out how to make a woman’s vagina and rectum express moisture is hardly the “pursuit of wisdom”. It is but a tiny little facet of wisdom.
Ecclesiastes and Proverbs tell us men, over and over, to avoid women. I can’t think of much positive they have to say about what women have to offer men–the best advice I can think of is to enjoy your young wife’s breasts at all times. That’s a biblical imperative I’ve certainly taken to heart.
@aaron – While Scripture repeatedly warns about the dangers of loose and quarrelsome women, it also commends prudent wives:
@Aaron,
It’s about learning the woman’s mind, isn’t it? The other parts merely show symptoms.
Check out Prov. 31 for an exposition of a wife who benefits her husband abundantly.
I am a little surprised about the comments in response to Irina the Russian. Admittedly her response was rather uncouth (“nyekulturny” even) but it would be possible to get her to think a little bit, perhaps.
BTW deti, you forgot to mention the breed of cat known as the Russian Blue, they are very friendly and sociable. The Siamese are usually bad tempered.
From the short time I spent in Russia, I noticed a lot of good people in a bad economic situation. Certainly they are more “closed” to people on the street, but once you are in the inner circle of friends they are quite warm and friendly.
It would have been better, given how Russians love to talk about literature, to ask her to contrast the Eat Pray Love situation with the other book she said she liked, The Red and The Black, by Stendhal.
In that you have a number of romantic situations where the woman shows her tingle-ability and Stendhal being quite a good writer and perceptive about women, might have allowed you to tame the hamster.
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TFH says:
Feminism, far from helping women, has instead exposed the vast limitations of women (moral, intellectual, emotional, spiritual, civic, economic, physical) far more visibly than was ever possible before feminism.
Traditional customs existed so as to train women into being something far better than their true natures, so that the majority of men could be duped into getting women fobbed off onto them. Women benefited from traditional customs far more than men, because most men could never see the true nature of women.
This is so damned brilliant! Young boys (certainly before puberty) should be trained to memorize this, and prepared to recite it upon demand.
Urgent. He has a five year $2.3 million dollar per year contract. His wife appreciates him?
Did someone say something about a supportive spouse?
Hypergamy — Solipsism doesn’t exist of course. You’ll understand when you watch one minute of this little video gem. Quintessential example.
This was viral a couple of years ago. Then it was disappeared from the internet, then he was sent to Coach at another football program, then, when the web forgot about this glitch, he received the $11 million contract to return to Auburn University as Head Football Coach. Returned to the South to see family for a couple of days, and the religion of football team worship is in full force. Some idolize Miley, other idolize Gus Malzahn and Nick Saban (and their teams).
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You’re all idiots who seem to think any woman last 28 is desperate to marry & “missing out”. As someone who is frequently “courted” and taken on dates at the “old age” of 26, I can attest that I have gained more interested men as I’ve gotten older, a lot of them even being younger than me. I’m traditional, how can you create romance or fall in love with any man who views a relationship in this light. I’m not using anyone, if I don’t see the relationship progressing I end it after a few dates/when I know that so the man doesn’t waste his money or time. I’ve never gone Dutch or paid for a date, but I am honest. I’ve had several men try to marry me, I haven’t done so and have therefore “extended” the courtship process because I’m not going to marry someone until I’m sure. That takes time, and yes sometimes wasted resources on both parties side. But if rather be sure & marry at 40 then end up divorced, a sentiment most females I know share.
Probably not the best way to start.
You are right Hannah, most women share your sentiment but most women also ,at 40, end up divorced.
Maybe you can figure out what you just said and I repeated back to you.
@Hannah,
Dalrock has multiple posts on marriage stats showing that first marriage at 40 is very rare nowadays. Basically if you’re not married by mid thirties, you aren’t going to be married.
Nobody said 26 was an age to start panicking, 29 – 32 or so seems to be the standard sweetie. And the stats are moving away from marriage (great news for many men).
Best of luck to your charming self.
@MarcusD
You kill me.
@empathologism
You nicely expressed the absurdity of Hannah’s position.
@Hannah
Prime idiot here.
“As someone who is frequently “courted” and taken on dates at the “old age” of 26, I can attest that I have gained more interested men as I’ve gotten older, a lot of them even being younger than me.”
Unsurprising. This is very much inline with manosphere thinking. You are more redpill than you know. But what happens when you hit 30?
“if I don’t see the relationship progressing I end it after a few dates/when I know that so the man doesn’t waste his money or time” Refreshing. Very redpill.
“I’m traditional, how can you create romance or fall in love with any man who views a relationship in this light. ” Redpill men don’t ignore the emotional component of a LTR–they just don’t ignore the financial components of seeking a LTR.
Hannah (being a woman) is taking it personally – hence the ‘You’re all idiots’. She does however if I may say so go wrong in her last sentence. It is hard to believe that most women share that sentiment when (whatever age they marry) they are the proponents of Divorce (in I suppose about 90% of cases). It is not that they have chosen too young or chosen the wrong man, but that being fickle, and congenitally predisposed to feeling ‘unhaaapy’ that whilst they are still young and attractive they realise they can jump from flower to flower like a bee. That is why there is a 40% divorce rate. If Hannah waits until she is forty all she will discover is that the available men are not going to be of the same quality as those who dated her when in her twenties (and toy-boys are NOT good quality matches). Either she won’t want to marry such men or they won’t want her.
Hannah pretty much sums up how useless she is as a woman …
She refuses to pay for anything, expecting the man to pay for everything …
What adds even more to her to being a useless leeching slut …
She’s such a priviliged & entitled whore …
She turns down men who she’ll leech & parasite off like a leech for decades, while holding out for a guy who knows how to game her & gives her gina tingles, while she leeches of him too!!!
Damn being a useless leech & parasitic christian reformed slut wife is so hard …
Most men can afford a maid & surrogacy …
What about love …
Fun fact, most women dont know how to have empathy for men, & actively hate their own children, to the point of murdering millions of infants every year …
Also add to a womans inability to think logically, & her inability to think long term, then theres the insane useless shit she talks about on a constant daily basis
Pretty much sums up how useless most women are …
You have the perfect storm for the rise of wacked out broads like Hannah & the men who cant get rid of her fast enough …
All I can say is, bang em in their teens, dump them in their twenties … at least you’re contributing to her becoming an alpha widow & making her useless for most mangina’s
Ironic how most women call being an alpha widow, as traditional .. roflmao
Holding out for alpha cock doesnt make you traditional, only women come up with shit like that …
Cue women like SunshineMary clapping like a retarded seal, when she bags a mangina after whoring around for over 15 years … ie her response at Mark Minter getting suckered into cuckolding a single mothers bastard spawn
@rmaxGenactivePUA
Do you have any sources for what you’ve said?
@RiRi said :”Russian men are world renown for being drunken wife beaters. I don’t know how accurate this portrayal is – maybe a little, maybe a lot, may not at all. But Russian are going to India and even China to find men. One wonders why they are doing so if Russian men are such great catches.”
And American women are world renown for being fat, alcoholic, drug-addled, loose-legged slappers who spread eagle for anything with a pulse and then hurl rape allegations to protect their non-existant reputations. Is that correct?
Russian women HAVE TO look elsewhere because THERE ARE TEN MILLION MORE WOMEN THAN MEN IN RUSSIA. Better to shut your mouth and let others think you might be a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
So black women. asian women etc aren’t important enough to be included in your article? What’s with all the ‘white women bla bla’? Duly noted that white women= women in your opinion and thes rest of us aren’t worth doing any sort of analysis on. How rude.
Yet another woman comes here and makes it all about herself.
“Fix [black women’s] obesity problem first, then we’ll talk. 40 years ago, black women in the US were actually slender and attractive……”
TFH, obesity among white women is getting worse – far, far worse. 30 years ago it was rare to see a white woman more than 50 pounds overweight, even among SAHMs. That’s commonplace now, among white female college students between ages 18 and 25 (just from observation).
Women cannot grasp one single super-simple reality about men and “good fathers and husbands.”
If we want to get laid, we seek out the sluts. If we want a wife/mother, sleep with us and we’ll be so grateful we’ll fuck you some more. Marry you? Most men are not as stupid as Sandra Bullock. The first things a good father does is carefully select the mother of his children.
@thatgirlwiththafro
Rude indeed.
However, as a generous host, I would still like to assist you in your hunt for a husband. Gentlemen, if you are man enough you might have a shot. From her most recent post:
I’m tempted forward the link to Heartiste, flagged for Thwack…
Dalrock, just a handy hint, that’s something called ‘humour’. Obviously, I wasn’t being serious. Thanks for checking out my blog though.
TFH. If you’d read any of my other blogs you’d know that I wasn’t being serious. That was tongue in cheek. I wouldn’t expect, nor would I want a man to pay off my loans. I’m perfectly capable of doing that myself..
Oh, and I don’t bother to argue with misogynists about whether they’re misogynists. It’s pointless. I was hoping the racial angle might be worth the effort, but clearly not.
thatgirlwiththafro,
That’s good. That is the way it should be.
So of course it goes without saying that you aren’t marrying anyone until you have paid off ALL your debt right, every penny? Because if you haven’t paid off ALL your debt (no matter what it is) your husband (whoever he is) is responsible for half of it the moment he says “I do.”
@thatgirlwiththafro:
You have noticed, surely, that every time the bourgeois intellectual class in this society wants to bash and trash blacks, they trot out an ugly bulldyke of a white feminist to do it for them… I assume you’ve noticed this, because as a white dude, I certainly have.
“In the black community there is a serious problem with patriarchal masculinity…blah blah…”
That’s the way the people in charge of this society call you a nigger, to your face. That big ugly bulldyke on tee vee who is insulting you is also taking a paid position that your brother or father ought to be in. As a black woman you ought to be very upset at this sort of sellout.
Here’s Amanda Marcotte (typical big, ugly bulldyke looking white feminist crank… hateful lunatic who is barely able to string two coherent sentences together) insulting you in writing…
http://dearwhitefeminists.wordpress.com/update/
Think about who your enemy really is. It isn’t the people on the Dalrock blog.
Regards, Boxer
The violence-prone/drug-prone idle young men in black parts of the U.S. are not patriachial, but are outside the patriarchial system, excluded by deliberate actions of black women and the U.S. gov’t. This is explained thoroughly in Daniel Amneus’ excellent free online book “The Garbage Generation: http://fisheaters.com/garbagegeneration.html
What does Hannah and thatgirlwiththafro have in common?
SAMMICHES!
Reblogged this on Chastisement 2013 and commented:
Great Post.
I am a black woman, a single mother (my fiancé passed in a car accident before my child was born), and a graduate SLP student. I am 29 years old (and hardly obese). I can understand where the majority of men are coming from here. Someone had previously addressed the race issue so I personally will not bother with that one.
What I am going to say is that it is profoundly difficult being a single mother and trying to date, or find a man who was as traditional and caring as my fiancé was. Sure nobody will be exactly like him but the majority of people look at me and my child and don’t realize her father is physically gone. They think he’s some deadbeat or I was some slut hoeing around with some white man. We were together for nine years! Nobody wants to listen to my story because they look at me and assume.
I don’t know why God placed me in this situation, but I cook, I clean, I do all of those things, but I, according to you all I am worthless. I didn’t choose this to happen to my child or me, and all I am looking for is a man to give me a chance. It must not be the right time I suppose. I’ve had my eyes peeled for other single fathers out there but to no avail. If anything I realize the worth of a good man…because I know what it is like to actually lose one, and not because he ran away.
Just trying to get you all to be a little less judgmental towards some of the women you may come across because you might have a gem right underneath your nose.
Renee:
Many of the dudes here have had incredibly bad experiences with women who divorced them. Your showing up here and complaining about the things said, in this protected space, is a bit silly. It’d be like me showing up (as a white dude) at a support group for victims of attacks by the KKK, and telling the other attendees to get over it, etc. That’d be bad form on my part and the rest of them would be right to tell me to get stuffed.
All that aside, someone in your position is not a skank ho. You are a widow. If you were in a faithful, monogamous relationship, with a dominant man who you were submissive to, then you were married to that man. The fact that you both didn’t get around to swearing some tax-status oath in front of a mangina judge makes no difference. Cail Corishev, I believe, wrote about this a long time ago. It’s called a “natural” marriage to Christians. Mormons call it a “terrestrial marriage”. No matter. A certificate is just a piece of paper. You had a husband, if you’re being sincere.
The people you should rightly be angry at are feminists, who use people like you (a tiny minority) as a cover for all the lousy stuff they pull. Whenever there is any talk of legal reform, the feminists will start squealing “what about the widows!” etc.
Don’t worry about racists who look down on your daughter because she takes after her dad. Tell her the truth, when she’s older. You were married to her dad, and make sure she knows you expect her to be a submissive wife to whatever worthy man she finds herself as an adult.
Peace, Boxer
Renee, no one here has said you are worthless. Don’t let solipsism make you feel like every criticism of female behavior is directed at you; there’s no need to beat yourself up like that.
I don’t want to be hard on you, because it sounds like you’ve truly had a bad break and you’re doing your best to deal with it and move on in a healthy way. But I do think there’s a lesson girls can learn from your story: don’t be in a 9-year unmarried relationship with a man. I’m not sure how “traditional” he was to be doing that, but you supply a painful example of why it’s such a bad idea. Obviously he didn’t expect to die when he did, but had he married you after a couple years or had you gone your separate ways, you wouldn’t be in this tough spot now. There are consequences to the modern dysfunction about marriage, and sometimes those aren’t paid by the people responsible for them.
I wish you all the best.
women today support themselves as much as do men. They aren’t out for a “meal ticket” when they date. Most men do the chivalry thing only on the first 1-3 dates, after that it’s duch. So what? How freaking insecure does a man have to be to feel threatened by that? LOL! Maybe some women aren’t keen on marriage simply because they see married women giving in and doing most of the house work IN ADDITION to their working jobs just like their partner. There is a lot of variation on how an individual man or woman views dating and marriage. To lump all women into the catagory of “feminist” or “slut” or….list your own stereotypes…is childish and of not use to anyone. The men on this blog need psychological help.
Hey darlin Karley,
Have you put your theory to the test ?
How do women “women today support themselves as much as do men” when children enter the picture ? LOL…..
Not so fast, once kids enter the picture the equation changes drastically – that cannot be denied.
The vast majority of “Christian” women have a high partner count of which lower count “Christian” men would rather pass on.
Psssst… “high partner count women” = “low morals” = men don’t want to marry.
If you think otherwise, let your potential “hubby” know your partner count and see if he sticks around.
Btw, please do keep us informed how your career & kids works with a 50-60 hour work week.
~Shalom
women today support themselves as much as do men.
Really?
—
Most men do the chivalry thing only on the first 1-3 dates, after that it’s duch.
How do you know that?
—
How freaking insecure does a man have to be to feel threatened by that?
How did you come to that conclusion?
—
Maybe some women aren’t keen on marriage simply because they see married women giving in and doing most of the house work IN ADDITION to their working jobs just like their partner.
Well…
Married men have significantly higher amounts of work-life conflicts as compared to married women.
Galinsky, Ellen, Kerstin Aumann, and James T. Bond. Times are changing: Gender and generation at work and at home. Families and Work Institute, 2009.
–
Results show that both husbands and wives in couples with more traditional housework arrangements report higher sexual frequency, suggesting the importance of gender display rather than marital exchange for sex between heterosexual married partners.
Kornrich, Sabino, Julie Brines, and Katrina Leupp. “Egalitarianism, housework, and sexual frequency in marriage.” American Sociological Review 78.1 (2013): 26-50.
–
In the combination of child care, housework, and paid work, men do more than women (54.2 vs 52.7 hours per week, in 2011).
American Time Use Survey (2011)
–
On the contrary, the risk of divorce (over a period of 4 years) is higher when he does as much or more housework than her, compared to when she does most of the housework. These effects are statistically significant, also after control of relevant factors.
Hansen, Thomas, Slagsvold, B. Likestilling hjemme. Norsk institutt for forskning om oppvekst, velferd og aldring, 2012.
—
To lump all women into the catagory of “feminist” or “slut” or….list your own stereotypes…is childish and of not use to anyone. The men on this blog need psychological help.
The underlined portion and the bold portion seem to be contradictory…
Karley says:
May 1, 2014 at 12:47 am
“women today support themselves as much as do men.”
Incorrect. ~95% of alimony and child support go to women. So does the bulk of welfare (food stamps, WIC, SNAP, etc.) Then there’s all the affirmative action benefiting women (also known as (put the crummier woman ahead of the better man).
“They aren’t out for a “meal ticket” when they date.”
Incorrect. http://www.laddertheory.com. Also, look up the word “hypergamy” sometime.
Lastly, why are the desirable men in romance novels (women’s pornography) typically quite wealthy? Perhaps it’s not chance that some women buy “If you’re rich, I’m single” bumper stickers.
“Most men do the chivalry thing only on the first 1-3 dates, after that it’s duch.” [sic]
Incorrect. Ask a group of actual men how they do this dating thing sometime.
“So what? How freaking insecure does a man have to be to feel threatened by that?”
Actually, it’s the greater probability of frivolous (commonly financially catastrophic to men but not women) divorce, wife infidelity, being cuckolded, poorer home environment (i.e., eating the same takeout/microwaved cr*p food after he marries as he did before it), on average fewer and later children borne into the marriage, women commonly being unatthardenedand a worsened power balance in the meantime, that repel the more astute men against careerist women.
“Maybe some women aren’t keen on marriage simply because they see married women giving in and doing most of the house work IN ADDITION to their working jobs just like their partner.”
Incorrect. Husbands are more likely than wives to be employed, to work full-time jobs vs. part-time jobs, and to work more hours at FT jobs. Men also do most work that is out-of-doors, away from home, or in unpleasant locations. (I’m currently on an oil drilling rig in North Dakota; with ~20 men on it, and zero women.) Further, 95% of Americans killed on the job are men. Lastly, the studies purportedly showing women averaging contributing more hours total hours to a marriage (from paid work + housework) typically leave out necessary tasks husbands primarily do, such as yard work, vehicle maintenance, and home repairs. When those are added back in, husbands average MORE hours contributed to the marriage than do wives. See http://www.glennsacks.com for a number of articles on this.
There is a lot of variation on how an individual man or woman views dating and marriage. To lump all women into the catagory of “feminist” or “slut” or….list your own stereotypes…is childish and of not use to anyone.
Incorrect. The vast majority of American women are sexually loose prior to marriage (or, sluts), a major change from just 50 years ago. This makes them less likely to be fertile due to STD exposure, less likely to be happy in marriage, more likely to already have another man’s children, more likely to be sexually unfaithful in marriage, and more likely to frivolously file for divorce. The degree of sluttiness of a prospective wife is of EXTREME concern to a man considering her for marriage.
The men on this blog need psychological help.”
That’s what this and similar blogs ARE for men. Actually, what they most need is to have grown up in (and had thereafter) a pre-1965 (ever better a pre-1860) legal and cultural environment. This would be one without no-fault divorce, and ideally men normally getting child custody in the event of divorce.
If you actually want to learn about this area, I suggest these authors:
Daniel Amneus, Roger Devlin, Stephen Baskerville.
All three have excellent papers freely available online.
This is an angry men. blog. It is so sad to read comments from such arrogant, vindictive men, who are taking out their low self worth on the sexual rejection from females.
Look out women. Be careful, men want to lead over us, and be called the head of the family, but they do not want the responsibilities that go along with ibeing a leader. either you are a leader or you aren’t. take a seat and hush your mouth.
Now we can read comments from males who call women over 30, old and unattractive. Well, someone needs to tell these grandpas, that they are just as ugly and unattractive. And those young females who you older men are looking at, are not even thinking of you all. Having a bald head and a bit of impotence does not turn a young female on to you. All you have to offer her is your money. And just think, she is laughing at you behind your back. Older men are so pitiful.
Keep putting over 30 women down and see how pathetic this makes older males look.
Really I am so shocked to read how men have it so hard dating. I have been dating on and off for ten years after my divorce there were two long relationships but most of these men hardly spent any money and i recipercated and invited them to a picnic where I paid for everything agter two or three dates. If you want a woman you have to put forth effort and attention. I Stop the whining all us single women and mothers pay our own bills and take care of children some of us on fact many work two jobs, Your a man focus on one woman and treat her well. What I have seen is a bumch of cheap men looking for free sex with no declared intention, It gets old if you want fre sex hit the streets there is none. It is degrading to treat a woman like this. Also women dating have to be well dressed have jewlwery hair and nails done its noy cheap for us either plus single moms have to pay babysitters. Believe me if a decent man who took me out bought me flowers once in awhile and showed he actually cared about me I would not still be singleThe truth is average first date is coffee and by the third date the pressure for sex is brutal for a woman. .. So I am worth a coffee and one dinner maybe really?
Ms. Sandra – How about some honesty! Ifd the guy DOES buy you flowers and DOES show that he cares about you, then you put him right into the FRIENDZONE and laugh at him for “doing it to himself”. You cannot have it both ways!
@sandra
Welcome to gender equity.
@sandra As it says, welcome to gender equity. You women wanted to be equal, so you’re getting it. And the question to ask is your last one…most all women aren’t worth a coffee and dinner any more.
@Sandra
You still reside where the term “single mom” is an empathy fount. Not here sweety. Most are single because they divorced their husbands for what in the long term would be called frivolous reasons having to do with being unhappy. I’m sure not you, no no no. Probably you had an abusive substance abuser who used pornography while sitting on your porch swing midday.
@ Sandra:
I’m a feminist. I’ll allow you to buy me dinner and flowers. But I might not sleep with you until after the third date.
Sandra,
As everyone has said, welcome to gender equality.
Really? Well, probably not. You are probably not worth a coffee and one dinner, maybe really. I can say that because you are divorced and the men here who are interested in women don’t want to date a divorced woman because he could never marry you, Luke 16:18. So sorry. Go back to your ex-husband.
Maybe you shouldn’t have gotten a divorce. You had a man that actually cared about you to make a life long commitment. You didn’t honor it and the men treat you has a woman that doesn’t honor a commitment. Now get those panties off.
gg,
It doesn’t matter. She wont be back. People who live in a perpetual state of victimhood only survive on the sympathy and emotional back-rubs of others, things she will not be getting here. She was just a troll.
She came to the wrong place for that
If your going to be a drive by troll, at least offer to make sammiches when you get here.
@MarcusD
LOL!
It is so simple, and yet you’re still not getting it.
The salient factor is not that these 30+ women are demanding more, better and longer courtships, rather it is that no one is “courting” them at all. Not now, and, most likely, not when they were in their twenties either.
Men don’t wanna get married. And so they don’t “court” women. They date women, they flirt with women, they, as you say, sleep with women (if they can). Most of them, anyway, as the guys going their own way are more of a middle aged phenomenon. Women still wanna get married. Perhaps not at age 18, 22, or even 25. But by 27? Uh-huuuuh! But few men want to marry them. Unless a woman is incredibly hot or rich or has some other thing going for here, the days of assured marriage for women are over (as you have finally admitted).
You’ve got it part right, in that when women do want marriage, by the time they figure it out, they are past their prime attractiveness and fertility years. But it is not as if most men are beating down the wedding chapel door when they are in their late teens or early twenties either. Moral or not, most men are not seeking marriage in their early adulthood anymore than women are, and in fact, most men are seeking sex even more than women are.
It is because marriage has become a disaster for men (as has been shown, painfully, on this and practically every other site on the manosphere), men are more than beginning to avoid it. They don’t want it, ever, period. Not only during the “wild oats” phase, but ever. While women still want it. They too want a wild oats phase, but they want it to end in wedding bells. Whereas men don’t.
And that is why men are withdrawing from “courtship.” Why court if you don’t want to get married? It is not so much about men bearing the costs of dating, and rejection rates and records of pickiness and so on and so forth. Most of that is nothing new. Rather it is men now realize that the candle is not worth the game (not “GAME,” where the candle is sex, but the old school, courtship game, where the candle is matrimony).
If you don’t like the term “Marriage strike,” that’s fine. I don’t like it much myself, because a “strike” connotes a temporary disruption (as in working at a job), rather than a choice to avoid something altogether. But the facts are the same, whatever the label, and whatever ever the way you frame the issue. Framing it in terms of “courtship” is kinda roundabout and misleading, but, if you dig deep, the same factor is still the controlling one: men don’t wanna get married!
but, if you dig deep, the same factor is still the controlling one: men don’t wanna get married!
Enough of them must because most of these women find husbands when they see the wall approaching. It’s mind baffling to me. Why would any sane man want to enter into a government sanctioned contract with a woman who has defiled herself multiple times, and this in a nation whose court systems will encourage and enable her to nuke their partnership on a whim and force him to pay her for all his troubles.
No, they won’t…and this is not a positive for civilization.
We get it fine; you’re just wrong. You’re right that men don’t “want” to get married, but men never have “wanted” to get married. Men have always been willing to marry when it would get them exclusive sexual and reproductive access to an attractive, fertile woman. They still are, but they’re finding that that deal isn’t available.
What’s changed is what you say yourself: girls are putting marriage off until at least 27, usually later, when they’ve already discarded their best 10-plus years of sexual and reproductive potential. Men were willing to marry them sooner, but the girls didn’t want to get married. They did want sex, though, so men — the attractive men they wanted, anyway — figured that seemed like an okay development.
Again: most men are just as willing to marry as men ever have been, if there’s a girl who wants to get married and has something to offer. The “marriage strike” is happening on the margins, and it’s men rejecting the call to marry 30-plus single moms, not men rejecting virginal 20-year-olds.
A man who wants to “court” young women doesn’t know where to start because marriage-seeking women under 28 are so rare he’s not sure they even exist. And if he does meet one, especially at church, she’s liable to have her standards set so high no man will ever meet them.
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With most women nowadays sleeping around a lot, that would do it since they just can’t Commit to just only one man.
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andra says:
August 4, 2014 at 10:56 pm
“…all us single women and mothers pay our own bills and take care of children some of us on fact many work two jobs”
Which explains why hundreds of billions of tax dollars have been spent on WIC, SNAP, food stamps, etc, and why about 95% of child support and alimony go from men to women. That’s NOT “paying your own bills”, sweetie.
Oh, and a woman heading a household with minor children who works two jobs? That is a poster child for a woman who has NO place in her life for a man she will give anything to. Rather, she just needs HIM to do a zillion things for her, forever. Nope, dating relationships aren’t supposed to just be one-way charity. If charitably-inclined, better he just writes the Salvation Army a check, or volunteers at a shelter for battered men. If she finds herself with no children in the home while young enough to still have some looks (by mens’ standards, not womens’), then maybe.
one feels like the whole job rests on you, they say that women have immense mental reading, bullshit, while courting, i cannot describe the extent of the mind of the woman i read, and the speed necessary to keep up is just too overwhelming, like yeah, i can see all your fucking judgement of me, its like being expected to pass a 1000 question test in about 10 mins.
Im an attractive man, and i feel that even if i manage to get to cuddle with a girl, im still under immense srcutiny, like fuck! I thought my looks would help but apparently, they dont (at best, i can compete better against other men), im still expected to blow a good load of money, even if she would totally have sex with me, she still wants to see what she can get from me, and if i withraw and say: fuck it! well guess what? you’re rejected…. its cruel.
when I was in medical school I told my parents to go find me a wife. I dated candidate once. The 4th one an 18 year oldwhose only interest in life was to be a housewife and have lots of children. she finished high school and that was it. we married as virgins to each other.
30 years later we are very happily married with 4 children and Jesus Christ is the center of our home. Our oldest daughter also asked me to find her husband. I meet with men at six in the morning on Wednesdays to pray and study the Bible. I asked him to pray for her what she wanted a blond green eyed surgeon doctor heavyset she likes them chunky non smoker. two days later said gentleman a virgin from Virginia called her up. they met and 21 days later got married. I know I have two granddaughters thanks to Jesus Christ. my next daughter also a virgin is getting married in August also to a virgin. unfortunately my son is not a virgin but he is ashamed as he should be. He does no drugs he’s in medical school and other than a couple of women he also follows. we are all slaves of Jesus Christ. we are all a very happy bunch of slaves. I read these posts and watch what happens in the insanity of the world and laugh. there is a real living God and he can fix anything.
Women should not go to College or University at all. Coeducation is immoral and stupid. Of course, even most men should never go to College or University either. No, Colleges and Universities are only for the very elite.
Women for a long time, have endeavored to mimic men, to try to be more masculine than men are, indeed, to beat men at their own game. One thing they are not allowed to be anymore, is Feminine at all. And that is precisely the paradox of Feminism!
Most women today need to read a good book on how to Commit to just one man instead of sleeping around so much.
One question: why men find it okay to seduce a woman and then only want to marry a virgin?
I am a traditional guy that had girlfriends (just two) but they dumped me because I did not have sex with them too soon….I tell them that I want to have sex with my wife…they don’t stay too long to become that person….as if I prove something by fucking them….they don’t get that establishing a good relationship and building a strong foundation is more important that instant gratification…
The fault of this current state of affair is due to both how women and men treat each other without being honest with themselves.
One question: why men find it okay to seduce a woman and then only want to marry a virgin?
Which men are these? None of the men I fellowship with believe it’s okay to seduce women? As far as I know, the Christian men that post here don’t believe it.
I am a traditional guy that had girlfriends (just two) but they dumped me because I did not have sex with them too soon
They faithfulness spared you years of misery that would have resulted from “marrying”* one of those women.
*Again I repeat that what is practiced in western nations is not marriage as understood in the Bible.
They = Your at 1:01 am.
Hey! At least I’m saving money.
Why even get married? The world has changed into a money, soul sucking scam. I have seen men get knocked out and down by gold digging ex wives and girlfriends. The ex husbands and boyfriends are still bitter and angry about being financially taken to the cleaners with divorce lawyers and the uneven legal system. Smart and logical men stay single and save their assets. It is cheaper to hire a hooker than to marry a wive and watch all your hard work and assets get flushed down the toilet of family law courts. Getting nagged at in marriage and then getting strip mined by lawyers and the judge really sucks. You will be sucked dry for years.
today women are making themselves chep and even men are fade up of the situation
Simple. When I was willing to make the effort, it wasn’t good enough. Now I’m not. Now it is time for me. My money, my time, my home, my interests. I am uninterested in sharing and unwilling to compromise. See you later.
I think we need to stop letting feminist push this idea that the hook up culture and the “I don’t need a man” culture is liberating. I am a 29 year old woman who is just now realizing the I wasted a lot of time buying into this idea that my identity as a woman is more than marriage and children. I went to college, got a career, participated in the “just have fun” culture and now that I’m going on 30, I regret it immensely because it seems harder to find men. When you’re young, you are impressionable so this type of rhetoric is appealing. But once you become your own woman and realize that your degrees and your career is not as fulfilling and that you wish you had a husband to share it with, and with your biological clock ticking away, you start to feel like complete crap!!
I don’t think it’s completely the men’s fault either. They are also responding to the feminist agenda which encourages them to focus on sex, be lazy in courtship, and hold off on marriage. What men need to realize is that at the end of the day, women will want a partner and maybe children. We are biologically predisposed to what both so no matter what society tries to push, we still crave courtship and partnerships. I think many feminist are creating a society of lonely and angry women and lazy and confused men.
I think we need to stop letting feminist push this idea that the hook up culture and the “I don’t need a man” culture is liberating. I am a 29 year old woman who is just now realizing I wasted a lot of time buying into this idea that my identity as a woman is more than marriage and children. I went to college, got a career, participated in the “just have fun” culture and now that I’m going on 30, I regret it immensely because it seems harder to find good men. When you’re young, you are impressionable so this type of rhetoric is appealing. I was in a good relationship in my early 20’s and I remember people encouraging me to be free and young and not to tie myself down and focus on school. People said the same thing to my him. They encouraged them to date around and not settle for me. Boy is society feeding us all crap that’ll keep us depressed and on popping pills! Once you become your own woman and realize that your degrees and your career is not as fulfilling as they made you believe and that you wish you had a husband to share it with, and with your biological clock ticking away, you start to feel like complete and total crap!!
So guys, be easy on us women, we are being fed a lot of bullshit from society when we are too young to understand the ramifications. And I don’t think it’s completely the men’s fault either. They are also responding to the feminist agenda which encourages them to focus on sex, be lazy in courtship, hold off on marriage, and devalue women overall. What men need to realize is that at the end of the day, women will want a partner and maybe children. We are biologically predisposed to want both so no matter what society tries to push, we still crave courtship and partnerships. I think many feminist are creating a society of lonely and angry women and lazy and confused men. And nobody is benefiting from it!
This myth of men playing the field is because women only notice the “top” 20% of men, and really only top 10%. Most other men rarely ever have sex and most want to marry the first woman that shows interest in them. Usually the woman is uninterested, but usually it’s still on a low partner count for men.
Men generally only have 2-3 partners in life, while most women are at 9+ by their early 20s.
It is just very sad for us Good single men that there are no more Good old fashioned women around since many of us would’ve been all settled down by now with our own Good wife and family today, and only if we had been born many years Earlier which it really would’ve made a very big difference in our life which we Definitely would’ve found a Good one too just like our family members did.
“we [women] are being fed a lot of bullshit from society when we are too young to understand the ramifications. And I don’t think it’s completely the men’s fault either.
Wow. It’s like a lot of men say around here. It’s almost like society lied to you.
Just like society lied to men by telling them “just be nice, just be yourself and girls will love you just for who you are. Looks don’t matter; looks aren’t all that important. Girls don’t really like good looking assholes. They just THINK they do. Girls really like nice, kind, sweet men who buy them flowers and worship the ground they walk on.”
Looks like society DOES lie to people and it looks like those lies DO cause a lot of damage.
And another thing, Kiley:
Society lied to you. That much is clear.
Question: Why did you believe those lies? Why didn’t you tell everyone around you that you knew better? Why didn’t you tell your parents, pastors, teachers and everyone else to screw off because you knew that it was better to find a man and marry early?
Why did you believe them?
Kiley at 29 is in the Epiphany phase. It’s very predictable.
That wall! Ouch!
Well with no more Good old fashioned women left is a very Excellent Reason why.
Why is all the pressure on men for a relationship to succeed? It seems men have to do and pay for everything with limited chances of success. And even when marriage occurs only 3 out of 10 marriages are happy ones.
Just too many Career women out there these days since they have Destroyed many of us Good Single men already do to their Greed And Selfishness Unfortunately. Been there and done that.
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as a single man all I want is a “girlfriend” by which I mean she has to be a “girl” and she has to be a “friend”.
not some overgrown woman with the brain of a girl.
and not someone who only blabs demands after demands after demands while offering nothing. they can’t even offer non-penetrating sex.
response:
At present times, there’s no reason for Men to get married. It’s suicidal.
A post feminist world my ass.
MGTOW for life.
Wow this is quite the feminazi diatribe. Enjoy your cats and wine because you are going to need them when you are old, poor and powerless. Before I go Undead Chronic is back and he sends his regards. #MGTOW