As I’ve mentioned before, women delaying marriage are playing a collective game of chicken in order to avoid wasting any more of their youth and fertility on their husbands than absolutely necessary. Obviously not all women are playing this game, but those who are delaying marriage are implicitly betting that the men their own age or a few years older than them will ultimately decide marrying an older, less fertile, more demanding and more sexually promiscuous bride is better than not marrying at all. For this to work younger women need to continue to be driven by greed (therefore keeping up the marriage delaying trend), and the men in question need to be driven by fear of ending up alone. While we are seeing signs that it is getting more difficult for marriage delaying women on the margins, the basic bet has so far panned out.
Still, there is always the risk that an inherent limit will be reached which could disrupt the strategy. For example, we already have an indication that delayed marriage is reducing the incentive for men to work to become providers. The risk here is that never married late twenties and early 30s women could start to panic, and this panic could spread to younger women. If early to mid twenties women were to switch from greed to fear, the older marriage delayers could end up being squeezed out of marriage by younger and more attractive brides. But beyond the problems with the weakened signal creating a shortage of eligible 30 something husbands, there is also the risk that eventually marriage will be delayed long enough for the SMV tables to turn. If this happens, men will be the ones driven by greed instead of fear, and the resulting panic by marriage delaying women would only reinforce this.
While we are certainly seeing changes on the margins, I don’t think we have enough data to suggest that we are witnessing a sea change regarding delayed marriage. However, Vox Day recently quoted an article in The Atlantic which shows exactly what a man moving from fear to greed as his SMV increases with age looks like. The Atlantic author misreads the change as being due to the technology of online dating, but online dating only makes it easier for the sex with the SMV advantage to be pickier.
From The Atlantic: A Million First Dates
And when you finally do get married, you can make the entire wedding about your dead father.
http://thestir.cafemom.com/love_sex/150508/bride_whose_father_died_gets
(complements of that delightful website you should not have introduced me to)
I’m sure there’s nothing a man hopes for on his wedding day more than his brother-in-law taking the mic at the reception and dedicating the 1st-20th dance with the bride to everybody who isn’t her husband. Maybe she’ll even let him consummate the marriage that night, if he does the dishes and deletes the porn off his computer.
You are right that there is a practical limit to how far back the age of marriage can be push. At least, for women. Men have a little more flexibility in this regard (for better and worse). Although I would think it couldn’t be pushed further than the average male SMV peak. It really comes down to fear and greed as you explain Dalrock. Once men become more aware of their potential (and this is inevitable, as the diffusion of “Red Pill” knowledge can’t really be stopped anymore) we should start to see the shift become more prominent.
Actually, thinking about it through the GB4M lens, the bride dance in the bride dance in the above video is the perfect illustration of butthex. Everybody gets a turn with the bride before the husband finally does. And by the time he gets her, she’s emotionally drained and made it clear her everybody that had her before him was higher on her priority list in life. An asscocking she got in life, and so she will asscock her husband in divorce court after the tingles run dry and the unhaaaaapy ratchets up a few levels. Such is the life of the desould. lzozlzozolzozlzozlzozlzozlzoz
As I think on it, you are probably correct that the inversion point, where average male and female SMV value flip, is probably the logical location for the delay to end for women.
Gee, say “I want to get married… someday” but right now you want to “have fun” until then. (You tell ’em girls. I’m sure the men’ll come running to have you take the house, their kids and half their income to shack-up with the next dude.)
Will women panic? Or are they having so much fun at 20 that they will be willing to risk being spinsters? I truly don’t know.
Dalrock,
FATAL ERROR! Danger Will Robinson, Danger! I believe we have a Paradox here Mr Dalrock.
The Paradox is a simple one, but one that annihilates the premise of your post: she isn’t getting any offers.
And when I say that I don’t mean she isn’t getting any GOOD offers (and thus not counting the bad offers as any offers.) I mean she is getting no offers. None. As in ZERO. Not one man on bended knee. Whether or not this is her fault and she must alter her behavior in order to encourage/coax/manipulate/trick/hypnotize/bribe/get-him-to-fall-in-love-with-her whatever it is, that is a different discussion. But that is the problem I have with the root of this post. Men aren’t proposing marriage (or even really talking about it much with their girlfriends), period.
And there is good reason for this. The younger men are either not dating at all, are alpha and are dating/f-cking a variety of women (because they can) and don’t want to gie up the harem for marriage, or have opted out of the market due to “threatpoint.” But the end result is still the same, she isn’t sacrificng her younger years for a better deal. There was no deal to be had IN her younger years!
never married late twenties and early 30s women could start to panic, and this panic could spread to younger women
From “The Hunger Games” (President Snow): Hope. It is the only thing stronger than fear. A little hope is effective. A lot of hope is dangerous. Spark is fine, as long as it’s contained.”
Culture Creation Industry has given Jenny Erikson a career because she delivers the illusion of hope in today’s The Stir.
She writes, “So Ben Affleck is just about the sweetest husband ever. In a recent interview, he said that his wife Jennifer Garner is the “most important person’ in his life.”
They chose JENNY ERIKSON to represent the composite of today’s CHRISTIAN woman. Appreciated her husband (now he’s ‘a bad man’).
The hope she’s delivering via the lifestyles of the A-list … well, I’m not going to reveal what those marriages are really like. Just understand, A-list actors can improv, but they must stick with the narrative.
The fantasy will delay the panic.
@sunshinemary
Will women panic?
Give it another 10 years, when the number of single old ladies starts to really pile up. I’m expecting an explosion of literature with the theme of “I waited too long and no one wanted me anymore”.
I think for this scenerio to happen…the average median age for men to get married must hit 30 (it’s close now).
Once guys hit 30…they have a pretty good idea how the world works. If he isn’t married then…he realizes what power he has and what is going on. 30 year old women don’t appeal to him at all and he starts going after the younger ones…because he can.
The losers will be women in all of this. They miss out on nabbing a man before he reaches his potential where she helps him achieve it…and become too old for him to notice her when he finally does reach his potential.
I think this is spot on.
Others have noted that the SMV chart is very general, and depicts the process at a median age. For many of my peers, the tipping point came about 24 (out of college and into a decent job age… suddenly the girls are chasing them). Even so, it takes a few more years to iron out the details. By 28-32, if you don’t understand what’s up, you never will.
The older I get, the more I’m starting to veer into the conspiracy-theory idea that civilization was built upon tricking men, at a vulnerable and excitable age, into slaving away for the benefit of others. Those who evade marriage are free, in ways that their married bros can’t even comprehend.
Regards, Boxer
SSM,
I think (at age 20) they ARE in a panic BUT because they have feminism (which gives them options that you or I might not approve of), they are trying to make the best of it and have “fun.” They want to get married but no one will have them. So, go out, pop birth control pills and get laid, buy stuff you can’t afford, and have fun. After all, you could be dead tomorrow?
As far as these young girls being greedy goes, I don’t think we are asking the right questions. Anyone who has ever wandered around a ghetto-ized area and noticed that there are NO weddings AT ALL for ANYONE we have to ask ourselves, why aren’t people even getting married?
@IBB
You are overlooking the subtlety of the dynamic of proposals. Only a fool proposes to a woman who isn’t signaling she wants to marry him. Likewise, once a woman decides she wants to find a husband, a proposal tends to show up in relatively short order. If your hypothesis is correct, men aren’t just waiting to marry when they themselves are older (when playing the field would be to their advantage), but they have a strong preference for marrying older women.
Dalrock,
Yes.
Not always, no. And because the answer is “not always” that is why (sadly) women have tended towards feminism.
That is not really my hypothesis.
My hypothesis is that women in their younger years aren’t getting any offers because they aren’t getting any offers. The marriage minded men who only chase younger women for their purity (because they want to be married) is a very small percentage of men (even if it is a large percentage here.) It is not that younger men have a stronger preference to marry younger or older or anything. It is that younger men (in most cases) don’t want to get married AT ALL. And older men are starting to lean in that direction. Men have too many secular options now for a fulfilling life without a wife.
You posted the charts. The lines are linear. Women aren’t getting married young. I say, they had no offers. I don’t think they are greedy, they are just not wanted. They have no choice, no one to choose from.
I suppose women could start proposing marriage?
Moments after reading this blog post, I got a marketing email from a local jewelry boutique titled: “All she wants for Christmas is … another diamond ring! Trust us!”
I mean, at some point a guy puts two and two together and says, “C’mon enough is enough!”
@Dalrock
Another great post Mr.Dalrock! A friend of mine sent me this graph last week.I find this very pertinent to your post.If you have not seen this,it will go with your archives.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?s=bcd95ba2d40b2c39b50c51f7701fb05f&attachmentid=4440081&d=1336580943
[D: Thanks. I’m almost positive that graphic is from a post by Solomon II. I believe those posts are still available as a zip download from Roosh’s forum.]
Dear Dalrock,
In the above you are making the fatalmistake of assuming a rational market.
The ancients understood marriage a lot better than the modern economist/Bernankelzlzozoz.
Women, even when they are in marriage, will blow it up. So don’t hold your breath waiting for women to react to data.
The ancients understood that Eve thought not with her rational mind, but with her butt/gina tizngzlzllzlzoz and went for the Lostasczcockas seprteent zlzozozlzo
Thus, a cornerstone of civilization was that “every woman’s desire would be unto her husband,” pronounced in Genesis, bolstered by Moses, fulfilled by Jesus, echoed by Paul et al. Indeed, this simple precept is the alpha and omega of the Judeo-Christian heritage. Without it, there can be no, and there is no, Christianity.
TFH,
When people feared God and His Almighty wrath, this was the eternal damnation and hellfire argument. LUST was the motivator for marriage! They had to race to the alter because they both had hormones in overdrive. You want to f-ck outside the bounds of marital wedlock, fine. Now your soul is bound for the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Hope it was good.
Problem is, Protestants insist on literacy and they can read the KJB themselves and they KNOW that Jesus saves. Thank God Almighty for that! Another problem (a bigger problem) is that far too few young people buy in to the eternal damnation argument for premarital sex. They think its all just hocus pocus.
@Dalrock
Bingo. No matter how lopsidedly-bad the deal that is modern marriage is for men, they keep doing it. Men want commitment so bad that some of them will figuratively (and often literally) cut off their balls to get it.
IBB:
Your hypothesis is that young women are not marrying young because they don’t get any marriage proposals. Implicit in this is a suggestion that the men around them are interested in the girls only for sex; or not interested at all for one reason or another.
Dalrock suggests that if young women aren’t getting marriage proposals, it’s because they are not signaling they want marriage at all, or to that particular man.
I think Dalrock’s argument is the better one. Most women are clearly signaling they’re not ready for marriage, especially the young women in college. More importantly, they’re signaling that they DO NOT WANT marriage. They’re studying. They’re trying to get ready for careers. They might or might not be living near the guys they meet in college when they get out. Her career and school plans might not be the same as his. At that stage of life, when they are both in college and working toward her career and his career, neither is willing to change or sacrifice plans to facilitate getting married.
It’s more or less the same thing when she is out of school and working. She is busy trying to establish herself in a job – pretty much the same thing he is doing. She’s busy with all sorts of commitments. Say she even gets serious with a great guy. But – she got a promotion and will move across the country. She worked her ass off for her degree and she’s going to take that job. So the relationship goes bust. She’s not serious about marriage – she’s serious about her career.
Or – look at someone who’s not a career girl. Look at a young woman, maybe 23 or 24 or 25. She dropped out of a university after a couple of years because it wasn’t for her and she goes to the community college. She works a shitty office job during the day; tends bar or waits tables at night, and has Girls Nights Out on the weekends. Half her friends are married; the other half are party girl locals like she is. She’s a local, fun loving, good time, party girl – drinks a little too much; hooks up now and then with local guys when she feels like it. She’s serious about nothing – doesn’t know who she is, what she wants to do, or where she sees herself one year, five years, or 10 years down the road. This girl isn’t serious about marriage – she’s serious about having fun. Or if she does want to meet a guy and get married, she’s clearly signaling that she’s not marriage material.
That’s what you’re missing – they’re not getting marriage proposals because they’re not serious about marriage. They’re not serious about making themselves marriage material. And they aren’t signaling that they want marriage or that they’re anywhere near ready for it.
“Thus, a cornerstone of civilization was that “every woman’s desire would be unto her husband,”
And when she doesn’t have one…she unleashes that desire onto civilization with disasterous results.
@GBFM
I’m not arguing that women will react to data, I’m arguing that their choices (along with men’s) are largely ruled by emotion. If you want to argue that women aren’t (or won’t continue to be) ruled by emotion, you have your work cut out for you.
I didn’t make an assertion in this post either way about women blowing up their marriages, but I would argue that divorce just like marriage comes down to the emotions of fear and greed. Right now very large numbers of women are lured into divorce by the greed sold to them via EPL and the Jenny Erikson’s of the culture. Likewise, large numbers see the reality of their divorced peers and are prevented from divorcing by (rational) fear. A shift by married women away from greed and towards fear would tend to stabilize marriage a good deal, given that:
1) Women drive the lion’s share of divorces.
2) Even when men have the clear SMP advantage (when their wives are older) they are extremely unlikely to initiate divorce.
Mid 30s men with established careers and some experience with women can afford to be picky. Minus religious scruples, why even settle for just one woman, or women your own age (as opposed to say, ten years younger?)
TFH,
No kidding?
For women to “wake up” or “panic” means that, around the ages of 16 to 26, they have to stare the Feminine Imperative right in the face and realize a major part of it is not true. Not going to happen. Because women will think, “The Feminine Imperative may not be right FOR OTHER GIRLS but it is right FOR ME!” and “Things need to change to make the Feminine Imperative work for women: men aren’t doing it right.”
When I’ve pointed out any data that contradicts the FI to a feminist, she says “I don’t know how I FEEL about that” and she goes straight to anecdotal data, “Well that may be true but I have some friends that are doing things differently.”
As Dalrock suggested, the marriage / no-marriage decision as blue-pillers turn to red-pillers will be seen in the data only on the margins. It will be a big effect, but only on the margins.
The signal for “fear” or “greed” for young women 16-26 is not the marriage data but the subsidization of their lifestyle from 16-26 by their parents, government and student loans. If that doesn’t change, what is there to “fear” since women think they will get married and other girls who didn’t are obviously losers.
An attractive 18 year old marriage minded virgin that advertizes herself as such on a dating website will have no problem getting serious attention from marriage minded men, say, 25-30.
So far, I haven’t seen a single one on the dating websites.
Also, the “bended knee” thing is pretty passe. So is an overpriced yet worthless diamond ring costing 3 months salary.
Welcome to the new reality.
deti,
Let me show you something on Mary’s lovely blog….
Take away the sign and let her grow her hair. Now add in a faith in Christ’s redemption and a hatred for Marriage 2.0. She does not believe in divorce under any circumstances. If this is what she looks like at age 25, it will not make a d-mn bit of difference how much she signals to all the men in the world if she is approachable for marriage. She will not be getting any offers. None. Zero.
She is ugly. She was born ugly. She will likely live her whole life ugly. She could love men all she wants. Unfortunately (no matter how hard she prays), she will find it almost impossible to ever find even one man that will ever love her back, not one. And she’ll die a virgin.
That is why she is a feminist.
Self-preservation in this scenerio is to not get married if you are a man. Freedom and resources are the best gifts men get…and it should take a woman that is worth it to give up both of those things and get married.
Such as an attractive 18 year old virgin.
Most women aren’t worth it anymore…either by not developing the feminine virtues or because they will take advantage of corrupt laws should they become unhappy.
There’s something else that’s missed. Online dating turns human beings into online-shopping commodities. This works for women when they’re at their peak SMV, and stands to be their ultimate dread when they hit their 30s. Not only is a woman past 30 who is trying online dating in a pickle because she has to initiate (which she is not going to be familiar with), but she’s already in the margins, SMV wise. One has to wonder what will happen when the women who started online dating when they were 17 will begin to whine about when they hit 30 and just can’t compete.
I suspect the results of that table turning will be visible very soon, within years, if not months. Online dating began to take off when? early 2000s?
@thegreatshebang
Women process risk differently, and paradoxically this can make it seem like they have a very high risk tolerance. Women are extremely risk averse, but are fairly comfortable ignoring risk altogether so long as other women around them are doing the same. It isn’t that they accept the level of risk, but they deny it entirely. But if the sentiment of the herd changes, they will change extremely quickly. I think you are right that the subsidized lifestyle matters, but so do the attitudes of women older than them. Let enough their older sisters and aunts (and their sister’s and aunt’s friends) end up as spinsters and younger women will start getting competitive with their peers to lock down the best prospective husbands, first as boyfriends and then as fiancé and eventually husband.
You won’t see one of these girls on POF, Match or OK Cupid, because everyone knows what those sites are used for. They’re for the cheap pickup of low quality hoes. For the same reasons, you won’t see any supermodel quality women on the dating web site either.
I’ve run into several of these virgins/near virgins who were looking for a husband, because I flirt with people in everyday life (I guess they call it daygame, lol). Many of them are very religious Christians or Muslims, and so they don’t tend to be interested in a libertine like brother Boxer, though I find it fun to make them blush and giggle.
If you really want to meet some of these girls, start chatting up women you meet in the “Slavic Baptist” or Muslim communities. Start flirting with the non-flashy girls also, that most men don’t even see. A good looking girl without any makeup is basically invisible among the tarts, so you have to put on some special “they live” glasses.
Many of these women have advanced degrees, own businesses, are sweet, virginal and quite willing to be a good wife. If you’re a religious bro, don’t mind dating outside your ethnic group, and want to be a serious family man, you could probably do pretty well with these chicks.
@IBB,
Part of the reason young women don’t receive marriage proposals is we’ve all but eliminated the idea that young women should marry an older man.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html
Even in 1900, the average 21 year old male wasn’t ready for marriage (that’s why the median age for men to marry was 26).
Post WWII men started marrying younger (and nearer to the woman’s age). Notice in the linked chart that while men have remained “older” than their wives, it is only by about 1 or 2 years. Even as women have delayed marriage over the decades, they are still not marrying men more than 1-2 years older than they are.
If those young women want to get married, they need to focus on men over 25. If they did they would find a man interested in marriage.
TFH,
Okay.
And that reality helps fathers of daughters who (on this planet in these short 90 years) very much want their daughters married and providing their greedy dads a BROOD of grandchildren that greedy-granddad can surround himself in his old age before he dies, HOW?
“An attractive 18 year old marriage minded virgin that advertizes herself as such on a dating website will have no problem getting serious attention from marriage minded men, say, 25-30.”
Exactly right. She doesn’t even have to advertise herself as such on a dating site. All she has to do is put herself out there and make it known amongst her family and friends that she is looking for marriage, not a party down good time.
With her father’s help, she’d be married inside of two years, pregnant inside of 4 years.
I keep saying this because it’s true – any reasonably attractive woman can get pretty much what she wants sexually. Anything from a ONS to a husband – if she wants it, it’s pretty much hers for the asking, if she plays it right.
Most of the problems with that woman in the picture is that she is fat and has short hair…I don’t doubt she could be pretty and get offers from men with longer hair and a healthy weight.
But the things is she doesn’t want to do even that minimual amount of work…and would rather take the easy route of being an ugly feminist and that is why she won’t have any offers.
IBB, 4:00 pm
This is a nonsequitur.
Nobody’s saying that homely young girls who are of low SMV are going to be swimming in marriage proposals. But most younger girls don’t have the….disadvantages of Little Green Sweater here.
I don’t see your point here, IBB. The reason that most women aren’t marrying in their late teens or early 20s isn’t because they can’t find men interested in them. Most women aren’t marrying then because they don’t want to, aren’t ready to, or aren’t marriage material.
@ Dalrock.
I’m not sure how to reply directly to your above reply to your post. Thank you for your explanation of your argument. I think it is a good prima facie argument with a lot of merit.
A good test case though, is the African-American community, since the majority of AA women get a signal from their peers and relatives that it is difficult to secure marriage.
The Economist published an article years ago on the (possibly self-imposed) shortage of men for AA women in the USA to marry. I suppose they “fight” for the most eligible men, and very eligible (aka Alpha) AA men find a lot of interest from AA women.
But AA women delay marrying “Betas” and men from other races. Or possibly even signaling that they want marriage, since many have single-mother status by their teens and early 20’s. The Economist argued that many of these effects are distorted by the War on Drugs and class-inequality within the AA community.
I apologize for throwing up the above data without data links, but my argument would be that a combination of the subsidies and Feminine Imperative thinking have suppressed fear among young AA women.
Your thoughts?
I’m not sure why it’s so hard to find virgins. Maybe most alpha men are used to paying a cheap price (skittles) for hoes and don’t see much difference between a hoe and a virgin, so they can’t justify searching for a virgin?
And I wonder if there’s not a distribution fallacy in the fertility statistics. Could it be that the fertility of a high-N-count hoe at 30 is significantly lower than that of a virgin at 30? Are there any studies of the fertility of virgins versus high-N-count hoes?
@TFH
“”Innocent men who adapt to this with an eye on self-preservation are not sinners, by comparison. Self-preservation is allowed under any interpretation of the Scripture of any religion””
Yes!…….Self Preservation is my motto!!!l!…….Shalom!
@deti
One of my friends got married at 22…because the woman who was 20 at the time wanted to get married to him. She basically suggested to him to either make a decision on the matter because she wanted to be married. Now I wouldn’t call her a supermodel…but she isn’t an uggo either.
So you are correct in saying a woman can get married if she wants to when she is young…but most don’t want to.
deti,
My point is that the number of marriage proposals a woman gets (from age 20 to anything) is quite often outside her control. And for some women it is hard to get ANY offers, and much of that is dependant on things outside her control. Remember what Rush Limbaugh said: Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women access to the mainstream of society.
This is not fear to greed. This is, I got nothing, no options.
Let me try it differently from the other direction, how many women that feministhater met in his life, how many of them do you think he could have “loved” that would have been willing to marry HIM? I don’t know him and I’d say zero, no options.
@IBB
“”She will not be getting any offers. None. Zero””
I see this almost everyday….”Where are all the single men”???……35 floors of this BS……Where are all the “good men”?….they are hiding! It is called “self preservation”…….
tgsb,
http://www.amazon.com/Is-Marriage-White-People-American/dp/0452297532
“My point is that the number of marriage proposals a woman gets (from age 20 to anything) is quite often outside her control. And for some women it is hard to get ANY offers, and much of that is dependant on things outside her control.”
Other than some physical deformity…it isn’t.
She can stay a healthy weight.
She can keep her hair long.
She can learn how to cook.
She can guard her virginity.
She can learn the feminine virtues.
She can put herself out there where men are.
She has quite a bit of control on how many offers she gets.
I think that IBB is closer to the truth of things. There are too many young Christian, chaste women pining for a husband to simply say they weren’t signaling enough. (Google “ring by spring” panic, for instance.)
Also, young women being socialized with men of the same age leads them to be most interested in and able to relate to their age peers and to feel uncomfortable with men who are older. This also means that there are real life differences between an 18 year old and a 25 year old that may not have been present generations ago.
Plus, many college aged men truly are not ready to marry and therefore make poor prospects. Some young women thus learn that marriage isn’t coming soon and *learn* to focus on other things. For instance, I remember a man telling me once that when he was in college he met a young woman who had “everything” he wanted; but he wanted to spend that time by himself (read: sow wild oats) and broke things off. He tried to connect with her a few years later but she was “enjoying her single life” as he says, and it didn’t work. She wasn’t like that when he met her young.
I’m sure an 18 year old woman would get a lot of attention online. But the suggestion overlooks the fact that most 18 year old women would find it creepy to put themselves online like that to be courted by random older men that they have never met. And many people are not comfortable with online dating at all.
Earl,
At one time (when men who weren’t married were frowned upon), yes. Probably. Marriage had so much more to offer men and society supported the foundation of it.
Today, with the marriage laws written the way they are are with men having so many other secular options (and a society that less and less demands marriage of men), not so much, no. A lot of this is the fault of feminism. Women got what they wanted and (well) for those women who want marriage… it is not as easy as Dalrock (or any of you) are making it out to be.
Thank you Denise.
Garfunkel and Oates have covered this question, nearly definitively:
@Deti,
“Exactly right. She doesn’t even have to advertise herself as such on a dating site. All she has to do is put herself out there and make it known amongst her family and friends that she is looking for marriage, not a party down good time.
With her father’s help, she’d be married inside of two years, pregnant inside of 4 years.”
I agree with some of what you are saying; girls can get sex whenever they want it. Also, lots of girls are party girls now and don’t want to settle down, and don’t know when they will want to settle.
BUT, marriage to a decent beta church guy seems to be much harder these days. One example is Haley’s Halo. She started blogging to let guys know she was available for marriage – she is still single. How long has she been blogging? She even took part in a “12 Dates in 12 Weeks” contest and was more forward during that time. She was not even able to get all 12 dates. She joined the church co-ed softball team to crank up some interest and that has not helped her. (I commend her for trying.)
Other examples would be the Stay At Home Daughters that blog as a way to advertise. They want to get married and have kids – but things don’t appear to be moving very quickly for them:
http://stayathomedaughter.com/about/
http://visionarydaughters.com/about-the-botkin-sisters
“BUT, marriage to a decent beta church guy seems to be much harder these days.”
Is it harder because the guys don’t want to get married…or the women looking for marriage aren’t attracted to those type of guys?
Bee,
Exactly!
As I said on another blog, Megan McArdle has wanted to be married since… a long time. She didn’t get married unti she was 37 or whatever, and that was after years of blogging about it. She took the first offer she got. And she wasn’t fat or ugly. All she did was put herself out there, please guys MARRY ME!
It’s tough on women who want marriage. No fear to greed. You can’t be greedy when you have zero.
Dalrock, among Blacks the trend is 1960: 24% illegitimacy rate; today 90% plus in the urban core and 70% plus nationally. Among Whites 1960: 4% all classes; today 4% Upper Middle Class and above; 20% Middle Class; 40% Working Class (sources: Juan Williams WSJ Fathers Day column, Charles Murray “Coming Apart: the State of White America.”)
Clearly the trend line is for marriage to disappear for all but Asians (still at around 4% today) and the White UMC. All the rest will simply have kids out of wedlock which describes over 50% of Hispanics, over 50% of Britons, and IIRC around 85% of Scandinavian peoples (Norwegian, Icelanders, Danes, Swedes, Finns). Marriage is already dead in much of Europe. Domestic partners is the norm. I.E. cohabitation but without the ceremony.
Marriage will simply be a marker for UMC White women, who want the wealth preserving function of monogamous (mostly) marriage for the lower aristocracy. Downton Abbey does not keep running if there are no heirs and heirs outside marriage to divert resources. Clearly marriage is disappearing for everyone else.
I offer a theory (just that): At-Will sexual liasons offer maximum freedom for women, without any real cost. The Welfare State, alimony even outside marriage (palimony), child support, improved female earnings, allow women to live the life of “the Sacred Single Mother” who has been transformed into a Mary Mother of Jesus Substitute. The Sacred Single Mother is worshipped now. This is similar to most employment contracts now, “at-will” where an employee can be terminated for any reason any time.
Are most women happy to abandon marriage? I’d say yes. Certainly there is a status cost among those who wished themselves middle class, but the freedom opportunity (always available for sex with an Alpha) outweighs the social cost of never wearing a ring or being called “Mrs.” which feminists have successfully devalued anyway. All of this of course rests on the West being a stable, prosperous, safe society without massive turmoil and uncertainty and violence. Collapse of which women would compete for protection and provision by men.
But absent that I don’t see it. The biggest differences between Asian and Black populations in the US is the pressure for wealth accumulation and preservation. Asian women face ENORMOUS pressure from intact nuclear families to “marry the right guy” that will enhance wealth and preserve what they have. A trade-off basically of money for tingles. Thrills “down there” have a cost of sexy men not creating much stability or wealth. For better and worse, only Asian and UMC Whites have shown the ability to force women to make that trade-off.
If I had to bet in twenty years, the White middle class rate of illegitimacy would be over 50%, Hispanics reach Black rates, and marriage would be effectively dead. Women would be quite happy though, maximizing sexual opportunities. Even in the ghetto there are beta male providers, but women there do not want them. Why would they?
@TGSB
This is a good question. All of this varies widely by race and class, and in the last 4 or 5 decades we have seen the UMC and MC retain marriage while the working class and below has lost it. Moving forward, UMC white men and women are almost certainly going to continue marrying, although they will probably continue to marry somewhat late (late 20s at least). They will also keep their very low divorce rates. I’m fairly confident about this prediction because the UMC cares very much about the results to their children, and legitimacy and marital stability are essential advantages that they see as a baseline to give their kids (as a group). Middle class Asians will probably continue to look like UMC whites in this way as well. The question I see is what will happen for middle class and working class whites (and probably hispanics). It is possible that marriage as a social institution will become so damaged over time that it stops being an essential class marker for middle class whites. However, based on the data I’ve shared recently from Europe even if formal weddings stop being important, creating a stable home with both biological parents will remain important for at least middle class whites.
You can see the class divide just as clearly within the AA community. Marriage continues to be an extremely important status marker for middle class and above black women. That it is something only a relatively small percentage of black women can now attain actually reinforces the status marker it serves. One way to spot this is to notice how careful married black women (especially mothers) are to display their wedding rings (watch their hands when they speak); they are signaling their higher class status so no one mistakes them for the baby mama down the street. It can be comical once you know to look for it, but it is also a positive sign that she is proud of her status as a married mother.
You can advertise wanting marriage all you want…but if you still have a list or standards in your head about what you want in a husband…it’s going to take a while. Either reality has to set in (the wall)…or you hold on to the list until death.
Most Christian women want the alpha masculine male…and most Christian men are anything but alpha. There is no difference in the churches and secular world when it comes to this. Game is a must for Christian men…for the betterment of both sexes.
Stay at home daughter wants the same thing the feminists want…and there is not that many men like that to go around.
Frightening. And real.
@ IBB and Bee
I find what you are saying interesting because it corroborates what I am hearing from young women (by young, I mean under 30). They are not getting marriage proposals even though they have remained chaste and have been hoping and praying for a husband. My sample size is small though – maybe half a dozen young women whom I’ve spoken with about this. I think maybe they are not signaling properly or something. But Haley’s story is disheartening.
this is already here.
how many rich and rough cougars are snapping up the affections of outwardly fit 23-29 yo’s with internal damage. the dirty thirty’s girls HATE cougar competition for “their men”.
we are soooo close to a new dawn of men as the dirty thirty’s themselves dip down and snap up outwardly fit, yet internally damaged men.
” I think maybe they are not signaling properly or something.”
Probably.
I mean I’m out here looking…and I know the covert signals now…but other than that women never really give you anything to go off of. What’s a less experienced man supposed to do…they aren’t mind readers.
Now the alpha’s who either know this…or just have those signals all the time…will have more success with those type of women than the more naive ones.
@SSM
You may be looking at the wrong sample. I assume you know roughly an equal number of young homeschooled men. What percentage of these young men are setting out to play the field? Nearly all of them would be delighted to have a girlfriend, and even more pleased to convert said girlfriend into a wife. This makes sense, because this is when the young women have the stronger SMV hand, and the young men have the weaker SMV hand.
SSM,
Yup.
It is not the signaling. Marriage has been destroyed.
I’m going to have to guess there are at least three things going on with chaste Christian girls who aren’t having much luck finding marriage ready men.
1. These are unattractive women who are simply on the short end of the stick. The unfortunate 1s, 2s and 3s.
2. These are incredibly ultrahypergamous women with 463 bullet point checklists.
3. These are women who are not looking in the right places for the right type of men; or are completely unattracted to the men who would be their natural counterparts ( devout Christian men – men like jzb and feministhater, or like earl and donal.)
As for the women SSM, Bee and IBB mention (cute but still unattached), I would bet a large sum of money that one of the following is happening:
1. They are rejecting decent, but not very assertive or high status men; and doing so left and right.
2. They are not putting themselves out there enough looking for good men; or are not looking in the right places.
3. They are not willing to consider older men, say 28 and up, for marriage.
I don’t believe for one minute that a decently attractive Christian girl cannot find a decent Christian man for marriage. Do. Not. Believe. It. She’s either rejecting tons of men; or she’s not looking in the right place; or she won’t consider suitable men who happen to be older and ready for marriage.
Last Friday night (in the pub) I was thinking about wedding rings and observed that my two married male companions were wearing their rings. I can understand why a woman wears a ring, as it is a ‘Keep Away’ notice, but why should men wear such rings – if anything a wedding-band is an encouragement to single females. Perhaps I ought to adopt a ring and display it prominently (along with the key-fob to a Ferrari).
If wedlock is so wonderful, why do my married friends and acquaintances envy me and tell me endless tales about their bad-tempered, spendthrift, aging, near-menopausal spouses. When I was younger, more than one middle-aged married-man senior to me where I was working (at the separate times) evinced considerable jealousy of my success (both real and imagined) with the opposite sex. This has continued down to the present. Cherchez la femme, as the French say. I never thought I was very successful with women for I would only have regarded success as bonking three different women every day, or being admired openly by a large harem of desirable females. I never achieved either of those desired results – yet.
donalgraeme says:
“As I think on it, you are probably correct that the inversion point, where average male and female SMV value flip, is probably the logical location for the delay to end for women.”
On a personal level as an older gentleman in the 700s, I have noticed that women 26 and older are easier to pull, those under not so much. 26 seems to be the age that women start looking for what might be the man to marry. Rollo’s inversion point would be 27 were women are in decline and men are rising
The other thing I noticed that while the getting married per 1000 is maybe settling instead of declining, the number of divorces per 1000 is rising, steeply. At the point the number of divorces outnumber the number of getting married occurs it will be interesting times and that doesn’t look to far in the future from happening.
TFH:
“Blue pill men WILL marry any detritus that is available to him when the detritus is good and ready. We see this in the tremendous doubling down in mangina/white-knight behavior that I had predicted from the start of 2010.”
There are a lot of desperate men out there. A couple months of sex and they will marry the girl no matter how old, how many red flags.
“1. They are rejecting decent, but not very assertive or high status men; and doing so left and right. ”
Otherwise known as my dating life in my 20s. It was nothing but rejection from Christian girls.
And now I’m in my 30s and know what is going on doing the things I should to be masculine (assertive and high status)…but now I’m getting the “how old are you” question.
The whole “marriage market crash” thing is the biggest bit of wishful thinking in the manosphere.
I wish it were true, but I don’t see it. For one thing, I think the female desire to marry isn’t as strong as most of you do. Women like alpha fucks and beta bucks. Marriage is incidental to that; they’re getting both without marriage.
@Dalrock
This is a good question. All of this varies widely by race and class, and in the last 4 or 5 decades we have seen the UMC and MC retain marriage while the working class and below has lost it. Moving forward, UMC white men and women are almost certainly going to continue marrying, although they will probably continue to marry somewhat late (late 20s at least). They will also keep their very low divorce rates.
—
A thought just occurred to me. One of the major differences between UMC and lower classes is that UMC women don’t get beta bucks without marriage, while LC women do get beta bucks without marriage. That is, welfare and baby subsidies efficiently replace the amount of provisioning that a lower class man can provide his wife, but do not efficiently replace the amount of provisioning that a high-earning beta can provide. So in order to satisfy AF/BB, lower class women don’t need to marry, but UMC women still do.
@ Bee, Deti, Dalrock, IBB
I know we want to assign evil intent to these young women, but I think some of it is just confusion. (I’m talking about serious Christian girls, not sorority sluts). I really think it is a signaling problem. They don’t know what men find attractive. They are told by everyone to focus on their education, so that’s the first problem. The second problem is that they don’t realize that they might do better to look at men a bit older than they are. If a girl is 21, it might not be so easy to find a boy of 21 or 22 to marry since he is not yet established. Of course, many of us married before we were established but we are old and were told very different information from what young people are told now. We can’t expect these girls to know what to do when everyone around them is telling them to do the wrong thing.
Anyway, they don’t know that they need to be a bit more pro-active and that they might want to start seriously looking right after high school and that they should look at young men who are a few years older. Of course, I’m not sure exactly where they will meet these men.
I think the basic question is: What were the benefits of marriage and do they still hold today?
Stayathome Daughter is run by Ashley Schnarr. She’s describing herself as being in a season of singleness.
She is reasonably attractive. Quite pretty, in fact. If she truly is what she represents herself to be, if she wanted a boyfriend, there’d be 10 Christian men on her father’s doorstep TOMORROW seeking her hand.
If she wanted to be courted for marriage, same story. At least 10 Christian men would be asking to court her inside of 24 hours.
Ashley Schnarr doesn’t want to be married. If she wanted to be married, she would be. Full stop. End of story.
Again: I do not believe that a reasonably attractive Christian girl cannot be courted or married — if that is what she wants.
Dalrock,
Most kids are not homeschooled. My kids aren’t.
Operating from this foundation, and what you are saying in this post only applies to home schooled boys who don’t know any better about the world because they haven’t been fully socialized with their peers. One need only watch any of the various televised spelling bees to see the home schooled kids crush everyone else, and when they start screaming the letters in their “winning word” and the audience laughs at their immaturity, they break down and cry. This happens almost every time wiht the home schoolers. This is because they haven’t had to adjust their behavior in their own home with mom, never had to deal with peers.
Sure, yeah they’ll want to marry the girl with the higher SMV.
Jenny Erikson is an example of a woman getting married to a man she was either never attracted to…or had lukewarm feelings at best.
And this is why marriages either fail or is dead already…women place too much stock on tingles for the guy instead of the purpose of marriage….to raise kids and have companionship.
So if women are really serious about marriage…they would signal that and take the first man that offers it. But like deti said…most of them are rejecting left and right or are not putting themselves out there.
@SSM
This has nothing to do with assuming evil intent. The sex in the SMP power position sets the terms. Young women are the rockstars of the SMP. If marriages aren’t happening for them, it is because those aren’t the terms they are setting. I don’t disagree that some individual young Christian women are confused and struggling as a result, but on a macro level it just doesn’t make sense that young women are powerless the way you and IBB are asserting, but somehow once they are past their prime they have the power to command a ring.
I also looked at “Visionary Daughters”, the site of Anna Sofia Botkin and Elizabeth Botkin. Both are pretty, attractive, and accomplished women. One is 23, the other 21.
Both could also be married to high status eliglble Christian men inside of six months if that’s what they wanted.
If either made it known they wanted to be courted or married, there’d be all kinds of Christian men purchasing plane tickets and cab fare to the Botkin residence to seek their hands.
Sorry. I don’t buy that these girls cannot get men. Not for one minute.
” if she wanted a boyfriend, there’d be 10 Christian men on her father’s doorstep TOMORROW seeking her hand.”
If she lived closer to my area…I’d give her a shot. But she isn’t looking to get married…or she would be.
She lives in the south…that is one of the parts of the country where marriage is still a thing.
Anna Sofia Botkin and Elizabeth Botkin are not married because they don’t want to be married or are not ready to be married.
Go to the link above and look at the photo of these two women. There is NO WAY these women are unable to gin up male interest.
There are scads upon legions of Christian men who literally would give their left (insert body part here) just to TALK to them, much less date or marry them.
@IBB
No. SSM said she knows a number of homeschool girls, and she is certain they want to marry but the boys won’t have them. I suggested she look at their logical counterpart, whom she probably knows as well.
@Deti,
On this point I disagree, I think they want to get married more than you think.
“2. They are not putting themselves out there enough looking for good men; or are not looking in the right places.”
What would you recommend these girls do?
Where should they look? (I am sure they have already tried home school conventions.) Their blogging is a form of putting themselves out there.
Aunt Haley is putting herself out there. What else should she do?
Actually the post referring to the Botkin daughters’ ages as 23 and 21 was from October 2006. So that means they’re 30 and 28 now. In a post in October 2010, Anna said she had just turned 25 and still unmarried.
From the photos I’ve seen, the only conclusion I can draw is that she’s not putting herself out there, is looking in the wrong places, or has a 463 bullet point checklist/”daughter of the King” mentality. She is a physically very attractive woman and should have exactly ZERO problem attracting high quality, high status men.
I don’t see the problem here. Why can’t Anna Botkin find one, not even ONE, qualified man for marriage?
It’ll be interesting to find out, SSM.
@Virtue
I don’t think there is a meaningful difference here. Child support is based on the income of the father, and doesn’t even require marriage. If it were just about beta bucks, UMC women would go the route of Jenny Erikson and get/stay married long enough to have their kids in wedlock and then divorce once the youngest was out of diapers, etc. The difference is UMC women have a longer time preference and better impulse control. When the authors of the Bell Curve looked at divorce they found that divorce rates increased with Socio Economic Status (SES) if you accounted for IQ, but that the increase in divorce rates due to SES was by far offset by the lower divorce rates with higher IQs. UMC mothers are the ones who are going nuts to make sure their children get into the right preschool, etc. Providing an intact home with bio dad and avoiding the psychological trauma which accompanies divorce is an absolute baseline for a mother like this.
“As I said on another blog, Megan McArdle has wanted to be married since… a long time. She didn’t get married unti she was 37 or whatever, and that was after years of blogging about it. She took the first offer she got. And she wasn’t fat or ugly. All she did was put herself out there, please guys MARRY ME!”
Well let’s do some research here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megan_McArdle
Lives in Washington DC (strike 1…those women have an even higher sense of hypergamy given the power types in that city)
McArdle was born and raised in New York City. (strike 2)
Her father, Francis X. McArdle, was former managing director of the GCA (General Contractors Association of New York) during the Koch, Dinkins, and Giuliani administrations. (powerful father…she isn’t trading down for some schulb)
Combine that with her years of schooling and career…and you have the typical modern woman. She may have advertised wanting to get married…but I bet the old hypergamy always kicked in until she had no choice.
SSM, Dalrock, Deti, everyone,
They don’t know what they want, period. You graduated the University of Michigan Mary. That is just barely below Ivy League. I am not going to be a beta orbiter pedistalizing you but you are in the upper 1% of women from an intelligence and cognitive ability standpoint, yes you are. So you probably knew (more than most young girls) what you wanted in a man for a husband for life at age 20.
For the rest? Forget it. There are too many parameters now that girls are processing at such a young age. As a result, they don’t know what they want. So even if they send out that signal (and it could be the right one) and even IF they get offers (which they wont nowadays) they are probably not going to act on them.
No. That is smart for the marriage minded girl.
I would never-EVER have married a woman that didn’t at least have a Bachelor’s Degree. My wife has her Master’s Degree. I find education very attractive. So do most men (you just might not see that here from the men at Dalrock’s)
This is the anti-dowry standpoint. At age 22 with her degree she’s got $100,000 in student loan debt. Hopefully it is a meaningful degree but she is a few years behind the curve. Best thing she can do, stay away from the credit cards, move back home, work, pay off all that debt ASAP! Her SMV is already through the roof high, get that MMV higher.
Alas, they don’t do that either. Around my office, the young men simply will not get married to these girls
Bee:
All I can tell you is this: If any, ANY, Christian woman is not finding a man, it’s usually one of three things.
1. She’s not attractive enough. She needs to work on her physical appearance.
2. She’s not looking in the right places.
3. Her standards are too high and she’s rejecting decent men left and right.
As for the Botkins: They need to lower their standards. I’m guessing they’re not attracted to the the Christian men they meet; or the Chrsitian men they meet don’t ask them out. (Maybe someone should get them in touch with earl. ) Any two girls who look like that should be able to get anything they want, anytime they want. They are the quintessential young, pretty virgins that Christian men say they want.
If two girls who look like that can’t find even one decently attractive Christian man to marry, something is very, very wrong and that something is not the men.
I am (slowly) working on a post addressing some of the topics just discussed, namely the problem good women have in finding husbands. I hope to have it out by the week’s end. Some commenters have already covered a few of the points, although there is more to it.
“Aunt Haley is putting herself out there. What else should she do?”
Get rid of the Prince Charming she has formulated in her head.
Bottom line: Young women (including young Christian women) are in the power position in the SMP. Full stop.
Girls like Ashley Schnarr and the Botkins can have anything, ANYTHING, they want. They are attractive enough to pull high status men.
Sorry, but no one will ever get me to believe anything other than these women don’t want to be married badly enough or are not looking hard enough.
@ IBB
Education is NOT attractive. It is desirable. Understand the difference.
http://donalgraeme.wordpress.com/2013/08/06/attraction-versus-desire/
And tell me sir, what kind of man wants to marry a woman 100$k in debt? Only a fool would. I frankly don’t blame them for not jumping into that. Education is only a slight boost to MMV, not nearly what you think it is. Certainly NOT worth that much debt. Not for a woman who is serious about marriage.
@IBB
In other words, they aren’t getting marriage proposals when they are young because they don’t want to get married yet and would reject the proposals if they received them. This is what I and others have been explaining from the beginning of the discussion.
Christian women who cannot find men should do the following:
1. Be overt about wanting to marry. Look for good Christian men and ask them out on dates. Show crystal clear IOIs. Make it clear that if these guys make a move on them, they’re not going to get nuked.
2. LOWER THEIR STANDARDS. No “Daughter of the King”/God’s little Princess” mentality. Earl, exactly right – Haley needs to forget about Prince Charming.
3. Increase their physical attractiveness. (Ashley Schnarr and the Botkins have this covered down pat.)
“Any attractive 19 year old who is a 7 or higher, who does not translate that into a life of being a the wife of a UMC-or-higher man, and with two or more kids…..
….. Is the equivalent of a young man who receives a $10M inheritance and squanders it.”
Exactly.
And unlike the man who can at least reearn some of that money back through hard work…once a woman loses her inhertience she can’t ever get it back.
And they only have 10 to maybe 15 years at the most to work with…which each year that passes the inheritence goes down.
If women were willing to put in some hard work and live in reality they can get married easily.
I’ve done this personally…but it doesn’t seem like women have these features anymore.
@GBFM,
http://80proofoinomancy.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/shhhhh-its-ok-its-just-me/
@Earl,
You recall my words, no doubt.
@Deti,
Rebecca St. James put herself out there. She announced to the whole world that she wanted to get married and that she was a virgin. It still took years for her to get engaged.
I am tempted to agree with Virtue; as I have written here before I have never noticed any desire from women to marry, at least not the ones I was interested in. Such women only marry when their options expire and clearly are able to do so even then. Some talk of marriage, but in practise prefer another ride on the carousel. The only rational response is to assume that that is what they are after.
Dalrock,
As I said…
“…and even IF they get offers (which they wont nowadays) ”
They won’t. I don’t care what their SMV says.
Bee:
Rebecca St. James is a hard working actress and recording artist. She has fame and notoriety. She’s a Christian career girl who no one can get to without going through her agent, publicist and handlers. Moreover, a woman with that level of fame would require a Christian bull alpha with even higher status, or model-quality good looks.
So Rebecca St. James isn’t a very good example to use. She had problems getting married because she’s a high status career girl.
@TFH
“Women don’t understand cause and effect very well.”
And I think that is why a lot of people have a hard time understanding that it is mostly women making it hard on themselves to get married.
Sure they say or advertise they want to get married…but nobody ever asks them how many men they rejected over the course of her lifetime. Hypergamy still doesn’t care.
SSM:
Dalrock:
Would you say that you have fairly summarized what I wrote?
@ IBB
OK, then…don’t. lol Seriously. Ick.
@ Deti
I think the Botkins girls may be running into what many young women run into; there are a lot more women than men in the church. But I also think their father keeps them on a very short leash, too. It’s hard to find a man in the modern day when you are cloistered.
Anyway. I may not be in the top 1% cognitively, but I do know when it is time for me to exit a conversation. God bless, all.
“@Earl,
You recall my words, no doubt.”
Yup.
IBB
As I said on another blog, Megan McArdle has wanted to be married since… a long time. She didn’t get married unti she was 37 or whatever, and that was after years of blogging about it. She took the first offer she got. And she wasn’t fat or ugly.
McArdle is 6 feet tall, or nearly so, making her taller than many potential suitors. The majority of men do not want to marry a woman taller than they are, and the majority of women do want to marry taller man. Your failure to mention that is a bit disingenuous. Now I am wondering what other facts you choose to leave out of your various statements?
As for Rebecca St. James
“On 3 January 2011 she announced her engagement to Foster the People bassist Jacob “Cubbie” Fink, a Colorado native and a missionary to South Africa”
Even the aformentioned Haley talked about this.
http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2011/01/07/rebecca-st-james-to-marry-beefcake-missionary/
Rebecca St. James’ husband, Jacob “Cubby” Fink, is also a model-good looking man who has ultra-high status merely by virtue of his looks. Most men wouldn’t have had a chance with Rebecca St. James. Fink did, because he is a bull alpha by virtue of his chiseled physical appearance.
No difference between Chrsitian women and secular women when it comes to dating. None whatsoever.
@Earl,
“Get rid of the Prince Charming she has formulated in her head.”
Show us some quotes from her blog that illustrate your accusation.
Oh, and Bee:
Being a world-famous Christian actress and singer who says “I’m a virgin and I want to get married” is not “putting yourself out there” .
“Putting yourself out there” is talking to men. It’s being with people . It’s getting to know people. It’s taking a risk and throwing out an IOI or three to a man who you fancy. It’s asking out a man. It’s accepting a date from a guy you might not otherwise pay a lot of attention to. It’s taking risks, it’s actually going on dates, dating, getting serious, having your heart broken, and then getting back out there. It’s improving your physical appearance if that’s what you need to do.
So no, just saying “I’m a virgin and I want to get married” is not enough to “put yourself out there”.
IBB
I would never-EVER have married a woman that didn’t at least have a Bachelor’s Degree. My wife has her Master’s Degree. I find education very attractive. So do most men (you just might not see that here from the men at Dalrock’s)
“I find education very attractive” – yeah, ok, so it’s not legs or T & A that turns you on in the bedroom, it’s that diploma she put on the wall over the bed? Really?
Well, maybe so. It takes all kinds. More likely you don’t really know what you are going on about. You aren’t thinking.
Ketchup got in your eyes…
Gotta go; but this notion that even average looking Christian women can’t get married or dates, is just pure unadulterated bullshit. Any young woman of even average looks pretty much runs the show in terms of male attention. She can command pretty much what she wants, from an ONS to a husband.
No one will ever be able to convince me otherwise.
TFH
Today he is IBB-2. I even bet that his periodicity in oscillating from IBB-1 and IBB-2 is synchronized to the days of the week.
Maybe. On the other hand, I believe I shall check the moon tonight…
@Deti,
You make a good point about R. St. James being a career girl. That is a big negative.
>> younger women will start getting competitive with their peers to lock down the best prospective husbands
Today’s young women are INTENSELY competitive with other women in the spheres of college-admissions, job-hunting, etc….. so they know how to be competitive. They now merely need to be CONVINCED that it’s needed.
It could take DECADEs before the benefits (to women) of Marriage 2.0 are CLEARLY & VISIBLY gone
happy-10th-anniversary-to-my-darling-husband-leif/ (Happy Marriage)
10-years-9-months-12-days-and-2-kids-later/ (She Files for Divorce)
What’s the magic number?
@ Bee
She calls it “Earl of Piety”.
http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-quest-for-the-early-of-piety/
@Deti,
No one will ever be able to convince me otherwise.
Stubbornness does not correlate with factual truth.
Just because you are stubborn does not mean you are correct.
@Earl,
I read the post you linked to. She is telling Christian women to lose that attitude. She says she stopped being like that after her dad died. She uses Amy Seed as a bad example, not herself.
You need a better post/quote than this if you are going to prove what you are claiming.
“She says she stopped being like that after her dad died.”
Isn’t that proof…that she was like that at one time. I have a hard time believing women give up that image without a fight.
But I’ll be generous…let’s say she has truly lost that attitude…and is putting herself out there…and is still physically attractive…she shouldn’t be having problems getting male suitors.
>> he can put herself out there where men are.
She has quite a bit of control on how many offers she gets.
In the Arab Gulf societies of 2013, most “arranged marriages” are really parents-can-veto-candidate that the DAUGHTER found (and first ran by an older sister or neice or aunt) . Go talk to some Dubai or Bahraini middle-aged fathers, you will see that they are not enthusiastic about the idea that “marrying off a daughter” becomes another un-paid household job/project that is on their shoulders.
Women absouletly command command the SMV when they are younger…because that is all she has. She needs those looks to attract a man and secure his commitment.
Her skills and education are secondary…her looks, fertliity, and youth are her calling card. No man will ever place what degrees she has or talent she possesses over how she looks.
So if she isn’t securing commitment in her youth…it is because of unchained hypergamy and/or she is hiding in the forest of school and career.
Did a few people really just call Rebecca St. James a “Christian”?
Marrying within the industry is strongly encouraged.
I should read before I post. Earl’s observations about McArdle’s background, in addition to the known fact of her height, make the situation clear. It seems likely that she could have been married earlier, to a man taller than she is, if she’d lowered her sights. A military man, or a cop, or even an engineer – but they would not measure up, not be Alpha enough.
The man she did marry is younger than she is, which is unusual, but not unheard of. It looks to me like a case of reconsidering her list of “must haves” and pruning it quite a bit, once she was over 30. In any event there is more to getting married for a woman than just posting “I Wanna” on a blog.
Returning to the OP, when I’m around college aged people, I see pairing up but I don’t see all that many women who are actively pursuing marriage. It seems to be “degree first, then later marriage”. That model is breaking down, if not already broken. When I encounter college students who are engaged or married, I politely but firmly congratulate them, and inform them “Whatever anyone else tells you, you are doing the right thing”.
If McArdle truly wanted to marry, not just settle for what she could 3 years before 40, she would have moved the hell out of DC. What’s more important, your chic job or the meat market (pardon my candor)? There are a few places with overwhelming male-to-female ratios, and you want to know why? That’s where a lot of well-paying jobs are. Want to get married? Hitch a ride to Houston, Midland, Las Vegas, North Dakota, Montana, Denver (“Menver”), etc. You can find this population data by sex very easily. McArdle could have been a secretary or office manager at a Houston engineering firm or taken some administrative position for an oil and gas outfit in those northern states I mentioned. But her cool job and fancy reputation mattered more to her than “stooping so lowly”. She married a guy who writes for Reason, a hack left-libertarian magazine.
There is no excuse, young womenfolk (and defenders). Your work is cut out for you. Military bases are another one I missed sqq extremely high ratios. Fort Hood in Killeen, TX is the largest US base. Incredible ratios. NO EXCUSE.
Well damn, my post got et. The gist of it is: don’t live in DC if you want to get married. Move somewhere with a good male-to-female ratio first of all: Houston, Midland, Las Vegas suburbs, Denver (“Menver”), North Dakota, Montana. Take a humble job over that chic, Sex in the City career. Administrative or secretarial is best for a woman at entry level, especially at an engineering, geological, or computer firm (male-heavy). Take a community college class in beginner mechanics or carpentry (male-heavy) but don’t be a butch or competitive about it. I’m surprised at all the people here who are listening to what young women SAY. Watch what they DO instead. You have no idea who’s approaching her or shyly eyeing her the 99% of the time she’s not complaining to you about the dearth of marrying men.
Agreed. I’ll believe that when pigs fly. And I want to see them floating through the air with my own eyes. In my own experience with talking to girls who “can’t find a good man,” she’s turning up her nose at the nice boring guys (maybe doing them a favor, if her hypergamy would make her unsatisfied with those guys); she’s still holding out for a guy as exciting as the one she fell hardest for in the past (whether or not she slept with him); and she’s convinced that she has some great career or calling (missionary work, maybe) that deserves priority over marriage. The ones older than 25 or so, if they’ve lived away from home for more than a few years, have also gotten very set in their ways — not just in what they want in a husband, but in things like where they want to live, what kind of house, how many kids, etc. They have little room left for accommodating a new person in their lives, let alone committing themselves to his mission in life. They do want to be married, and they think they have reasonable standards and that they’re looking hard and giving guys a chance, but that’s just not true.
Now, it’s true that the modern dating milieu causes a lot of confusion, even for these pretty, smart, virginal, traditional, marriage-oriented girls we’re being told are so numerous. One problem is that men have gotten so used to the idea that young women are anti-marriage that we may not even pursue them for that. That doesn’t mean they’re hopeless, though; it just means they need to make a little effort. “Putting themselves out there” in the sense of going to the dance and waiting to be asked isn’t good enough; they need to let guys know they’re different from all the party girls their age.
For instance: the other day a couple of college girls came into my place of business. Both slim, pretty, and with feminine dress and attitude — made my day, really. They were pretty chatty with me, and I was feeling a bit of a vibe from them, especially one. But my default thinking was still, “Come on, they’re 20 years younger than me, and in college; what are the odds they’d be interested in me and also in marriage in the near future?” So if they were examples of these perfect girls who can’t get a proposal, they went away from me unfulfilled too.
But that wouldn’t have to be the end of it. If one of them came back in this week and said she wanted to ask me more about something we discussed the other day, and hung around and played with her hair a little, I’d catch on and take it from there. She wouldn’t have to do much, but she has to do something to let me know there’s an opportunity there that isn’t there with all the other girls.
Long story short: if you’re selling something that’s unlike what everyone else is selling — better, but not obviously so from looking at the package — you have to advertise.
“The basic bet has so far panned out.”
I think the ever married stats are misleading, it doesn’t count for divorce, quickly ended ‘mistake’ marriages and mature marriages.
Stats show that 52% are currently married (72%, 1960) while 53% of those have been married 15 years or longer.
Cail
I didn’t say they were numerous. Here is what I said:
@ SSM
Sorry Sunshine, but you fell for the solipsism trap there. Cail wasn’t referring to just you, several other commenters had referred to such women as well. Including one who used express language that such women were not rare.
A mite off-topic, but not much…
“Man Asks Fiancé’s Little Girl to Be His Stepdaughter in Adorable Proposal,” by Jenny Erikson, The Stir, 9 Dec 2013
http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/165318/man_asks_fiancs_little_girl
“Attention Future Boyfriend!” she leads off with.
Spin, hamster, spin.
innocentbystanderboston says:
Take away the sign and let her grow her hair.
Now add in a faith in Christ’s redemption and a hatred for Marriage 2.0.
She does not believe in divorce under any circumstances.
If this is what she looks like at age 25, it will not make a damn bit of difference how much she signals to all the men in the world if she is approachable for marriage.
She will not be getting any offers. None. Zero.
She is ugly.
She was born ugly.
She will likely live her whole life ugly.
She could love men all she wants.
Unfortunately (no matter how hard she prays), she will find it almost impossible to ever find even one man that will ever love her back, not one.
And she’ll die a virgin.
That is why she is a feminist.
BAM!
I wish we could somehow get some data on the percentage of married couples that actually identify as being happy, and what those measures of happiness are.
No, you didn’t, and I wasn’t quoting you. But when this topic comes up, that ends up being the overall suggestion: there are lots of virtuous, pretty, marriage-minded girls out there who can’t get a date with a decent guy, let alone a proposal. They’re all over the place, practically an epidemic! But if that’s the case, and they’re “putting themselves out there,” then whose fault is it they’re going home alone every night? Why, men’s fault, obviously. Just ask IBB or any other white knight. It must be that those men are liars and don’t really want marriage-minded virgins, but prefer sluts. Or that men are so spineless and fearful that they won’t approach a woman who’s properly reserved. Or men are just too stupid to see a good thing when it’s right in front of them. Gotta be their fault somehow.
Wow, so here is my situation. I was divorced 15 years ago at age 38. No need to talk about ex, too derivative. What I discovered immediately was that 30 and 40 something women, still thought they were top dog in the dating world. I hooked up with a 25 year old, with perfect body type, who wanted a whole life experience. When she got enough of me, she said, “you are fabulous, but it is time for me to move on, and find something else.” I might have been saddened by this, but my age, and financial situation made it clear to me, that women were everywhere, and at my beck and call. In meeting women my own age, I understood that they were mostly mentally ill, financially, emotionally and physically broken down, and of no value. There SMV was almost ZERO, and my age and wisdom made this clear. As I have entered my mid 50’s, it has worsened, and now add the 40 somethings who are totally screwed, it is a feeding frenzy for guys like me. So guys, dont marry for the second time, or dont marry at all. As any woman will tell you, if she is honest, husbands are temporary, children are forever. So you know where you stand. Get that boat or motorcycle, find the trailer trash with thin waists, and have at ’em. They know what the deal is, and so do you.
I get the feeling this is a response to me, but you didn’t use my nym. While I wouldn’t call these virginal types numerous, I will say they exist, and they’re a lot less rare than most here think.
I’ve developed a theory of men in the past year, which includes the suspicion that men have their own “rationalization hamster” which fuels the male “apex fallacy”. This artifact of false consciousness is rooted in the proclivity to notice the women who hit the attraction triggers of the average man. Women are centuries ahead of men in this regard, and the state of North America has produced a blinding array of women who are eager to shove their surgically enhanced, cosmetically altered, artificially scented faces and breasts into the average dude’s face.
When 80 percent of the female population looks artificially good, the average dude finds the 20 percent of normal women to be pretty much invisible. It’s among this un-tarted-up cohort that most of these chaste and polite women congregate
They don’t seem to need to let guys know anything. The ones I have stumbled across have been married a very short time (and I’m talking weeks or months, not years) after I tried my hand at them. They seem to marry pretty well, too. This immediately puts the lie to all the feminist claims that successful men want women who are “strong”, “worldly” and “experienced”. We do like those women for casual sex, but when we have a choice, we tend to snap up the good chicks for ltr or marriage.
Best, Boxer
Yeah, they probably should have started seriously looking at 18, not 28. If I recall the stats correctly, something like half of white women are no longer virgins at 20. So, 18 is old enough to have sex, but not marry.
How many times do the men have to say this before it sinks in?
18 = hot with many years of fertility left. 28 = last chance before the wall, few years of fertility left.
I know, women just hate that men are attracted to sexy 18 year olds. And men hate that women are attracted to wealthy alphas. Ah well.
Totally disgusting.
Mz. Erikson: Keep looking for that “lucky guy” who will propose to you, relegitimize your daughters, pay your way through life, and gladly live as your slave until you decide to discard him, as you did with the last fellow. I’m sure that “hunky trillionaire handyman” is right around the corner…
“Obviously not all women are playing this game, but those who are delaying marriage are implicitly betting that the men their own age or a few years older than them will ultimately decide marrying an older, less fertile, more demanding and more sexually promiscuous bride is better than not marrying at all.”
The limit has been reached and it is that marriage has become such a liability and intolerable risk for men that they would *rather* be alone for the remainder of their years than release a rabid badger backed by free legal counsel into their homes. MGTOW is the response to this situation. Place your bets.
I recall a few years ago a young (think mid twenties), single, virginal Christian girl was commenting on my blog complaining about the lack of good men, but she didn’t seem willing to put herself out there or take chances. I suggested online dating and to date men at least 5 years older (preferably 10), but she was put off by this idea. Online dating is just “too scary”. Seriously, God is not going to drop your spouse from the sky while you sit there. I got the sense now and the theme is reoccurring, that these women just don’t seem all that motivated for whatever reason. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking and if they want lots of babies, they just don’t see how that squares.
That’s my take, which is why I tried to offer some advice on that in my long comment. In an ideal world, maybe a girl wouldn’t have to signal so strongly, but I’m not even so sure that’s true. Even in my grandmothers’ generation, girls who were interested in a man put feelers out, asked around about him, found ways to put themselves in his proximity, told their dad that the guy might be a good prospect to hire as an extra field-hand in the summer, and so on. It was still sort of passive, so he could be the one to take the lead and make the official approach — no snapping of thongs, for instance — but they didn’t just show up to social occasions and wait for something to happen.
So I don’t think it was ever so one-sided as people think, but today it really can’t be, because the Good Girl is too rare to expect guys to recognize her in a crowd. She needs to signal clearly.
Make a batch of cookies, stop by where the guy works, and tell him you had extras and thought maybe he’d like some. Find out what sort of volunteer/hobby activity he does, show some interest in it, and ask if he could use some help sometime. Make friends with his friends and drop hints that if they’d like to arrange some sort of get-together and invite both of you, you’d help cook and clean up after.
Another thing I suspect happens is that, when a girl really has done everything right — stayed fit, learned homemaking skills, protected her virtue, and so on — she (or more likely her family and friends) thinks, “I’ve put a lot of work into being a high-value marriage prospect here. Men should be beating down my door and begging me to consider their proposals. I shouldn’t have to go around “signaling” them. Slutty girls don’t have to do that; men ask them out all the time. Why should I have to go convince men to approach me?” Well, maybe it isn’t fair, but it’s the way it is. If you want something different from what everyone else is after — like marriage before the age of 28 — you have to let people know that.
This highlights one of the major problems right now: women (and men) are receiving awful advice for getting married. Women are told to focus on their education. They are told to wait, to “find themselves.” They are told that “good men approach women” and “good women never approach men.” They are told to date, and to date exclusively. Or even worse, to “kiss dating goodbye.” Oh, and they are told that good men will love them “for who they are.” Their age, their looks, their behavior and their weight are utterly irrelevant.
Simply put, good women are sabotaged as much as men are when it comes to marriage.
About 65% of women are obese or overweight (though I’d like to see this broken down by race). Where do you get the 80% population of artificially attractive women idea, Boxer?
Boxer’s experience sounds very different from others in this thread in that attractive young women he knows who want to get married do so rather easily.
The problem as I see it is that the Sexual Revolution freed women to make utmost use of their erotic capital in order to secure “fun” and ego validation while at the same time laws were put in place that protected women against the consequences of those behaviors (i.e, men in still being forced to play the role of provider post divorce, mandatory and excessive child support payments, welfare for single mothers, etc.) By all means, let alpha males hoard female erotic capital, but men need rights too in this jungle: They shouldn’t be taxed to support the spawn of single mothers, they shouldn’t be forced to keep playing the role of provider post divorce, and prostitution should be legalized as a corrective against the female erotic capital hoarding that the top 20% of males engage in.
Another thought, sorry if already said—are the Christian men not proposing because they can’t find work or are underemployed (no fault of their own)? Can’t take on the liability/responsibility of keeping a wife and having a family.
@ LGR
I’ve talked with some women, through e-mail and other media, who fall across the twenties spectrum (early to late), and many seem to have the same problems you describe in that young woman. They are too passive. Too unwilling to put themselves out there. Now, in a healthier culture this wouldn’t be a problem, because the existing social networks (no, I’m not talking about Facebook here) would help match that young woman up with a good man (who would also benefit from that system). But nowadays those networks are gone in most cases. And when they do exist, they offer the bad kind of advice I mentioned in my comment above.
Boxer, I wasn’t responding to you or anyone in particular; it’s a claim that comes up regularly in these conversations. However, you seem to be saying that these chaste girls don’t have a problem getting married, which is what Deti and I are saying would be the case, so I don’t think we disagree. What some others are saying is that there are significant numbers of chaste, slim, marriage-minded girls who can’t get a date. They grow their hair long and dress in a feminine manner; they are involved in their churches and participate in things that put them in eye-shot of single Christian men; they let everyone know they’re serious about marriage and traditional roles; they get out there socially so men have an opportunity to approach them. And yet they sit at home Friday nights waiting for the phone that never rings, because men just don’t seem to want them for some reason.
I do believe that chaste, attractive, Christian girls exist, and may not be that rare; I just don’t believe they can’t get a date. if that’s the case for one, she’s either fishing in a very small pond, like a single small church that just doesn’t happen to have any single men; or her expectations are through the roof and no man can meet them; or she’s somehow signalling that she’s not available. And those would have to be strong signals, because men are wired to approach attractive women, and plenty of men aren’t going to be put off by subtlety. If she’s really getting no approaches, she’s giving off strong keep-away vibes.
@ LGR again
This is a factor as well. The job market is awful, and for someone who wants to marry and have children (especially someone who views birth control as wrong), finances are a real concern. Some of those “Peter Pan manboys” are guys who can’t get a good job which could support a family. Since that is next to impossible, or would required years of effort with no guarantee of success (either in the job or finding a worthy woman) they simply check out and play video games instead.
Deti is spot on, these girls could have been married if they wanted it.
I’m surrounded by a virtual gaggle of post 30 marriage minded women but they were no where to be seen 10 years ago.
It’s interesting that when the noose gets tighter these formally ‘shy’ girls all of a sudden become a lot more forward.
Part of the whole mosaic also is due to fatherlessness. Boys who are raised by a man have a leg up in the flirting/talking/game department. Boys model their father’s interactions with women (be they cocky self-assured types, or dominant types, or whatever) and are proactive.
Today’s young bros have been inundated with the idea that girls are unapproachable, that talking to them is “sexual harassment” and that they should just “be a nice guy and wait for the girl to come to you”. This rarely works very well for the young women (such as those you refer to).
If the girls aren’t getting matched up, they can lay a large portion of the blame on their older female relatives for it.
Many American men have ceded control of the relationship to their wives and their girlfriends. This acquiescence of responsibility in the union occurs early in the initial courtship of the couple. Quite frankly, many American men don’t mind being controlled by their lover in return for acceptance and romance. They bury their needs, feelings and goals to accommodate their mate’s. They surrender unconditionally due to their natural desire for sex and their fear of being alone. They would rather be in a poor relationship than NO relationship. But there is a terrible cost to their short-term pathway to romantic bliss. This century-long trend of submersion of the male in love and marriage is a major cause of the unprecedented failure of heterosexual relations in 2013 America.
From: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/repairing-relationships/201312/why-do-men-put-the-short-leash
Posted at Dr. Helen’s blog (http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2013/12/10/continuing-the-short-leash-discussion/).
I think it’s unrealistic to expect women to ‘signal.’ It’s just not their way. It’s not something they want to do, or enjoy doing. Women want to be approached. And taken, if you’re the right guy.
The great problem here is while the process has not changed for us as men, the possible or expected outcomes have been warped beyond recognition on the female side. Whereas in days gone by, a man might get a polite turn down, or a threatening look from a brother or a father, now we are liable to get nuclear rejections, harassment charges, rape charges, mixed signals, or frivorced in a very short amount of time after marriage. And don’t dare ask about N count. There’s no place positive that that conversation will go.
So as far as I’m concerned, women have forfeited the right to complain. If they want suitable men to approach them, maybe they should try being ladies again.
@ Boxer
Boys who are raised by a man have a leg up in the flirting/talking/game department. Boys model their father’s interactions with women (be they cocky self-assured types, or dominant types, or whatever) and are proactive.
That only works for boys who have “alpha” fathers, a boy with a “beta'” father may be worse off.
Cail, good point and it’s backed by one example that comes to mind. (Forgive me) Pride and Prejudice models this issue very seriously. One of the reasons Mr. Darcy convinces Mr. Bingley that Jane Bennett is unfit for marriage is that she doesn’t display enough encouragement at his advances. Even then women were expected to be modest but clear in their signals of interest.
@Earl,
“Isn’t that proof…that she was like that at one time. ” An one time you were too much beta.
The link you gave was about Amy Seed not Aunt Haley. You still have not provided any evidence to back up your accusation of Aunt Haley.
I’ll never forget when tradcon homemaker blogger Lady Lydia (Not McGrew, a different one (at least I think so)) said that a bad economy is no excuse for a man to be out of of a job. That was the beginning of the end of my love affair with the tradcon snowflakes.
There is no reason for a man to get married before 35-40 and no reason for a girl to delay marriage past 20-25. A young 20s woman has the youth and fertility to attract a man who at 40 is more likely to have the means for a family, not to mention a dominance vibe. I am a big advocate for age gap relationships. Naturally though, the young Christian women recoil at this. Have to think out of the box if you want to marry in this culture.
@ TFH
That was actually Boxer’s statement, not mine. I messed up my quotes.
@ LGR
Well, unless you are a Christian and are concerned about matters of sexual immorality. Very, very few men have the discipline to hold out that long. Trust me on this. Not to mention that there are negative health consequences to men who don’t have sex often or at all. Truth is that young marriage is something that is appropriate and proper for Christian women and Christian men.
I was one of those Christian girls who took forever to find a husband. I married at 33. Looking back I made many mistakes. I lived in the wrong areas (like San Francisco and Portland where the gender ratio was imbalanced and the dominant culture did not value marriage). I frequented places like coffee shops and libraries. I should have gone places and joined activities where common interests made conversation easier. All the churches I attended had few single men. I went to one church single event that had 20 women show up and one man. Best advice I got was go where the men are, the sports bars, hockey games and such. My dad even bought me a mountain bike. I asked everyone I knew to fix me up, but no one did. I would advise single women to relocate, learn to love sports events, date online, and buy a mountain bike or ski pass. Also, do not listen when people tell you that you should wait for the man to pursue you. A reserved demeanor does not communicate your wishes effectively. One can show interest while remaining classy.
@Donal,
Understood.Marriage does not guarantee sex though. Seems common sense that it should, but not so. Men may marry and then be expected to have that same discipline due to frigid wives that aren’t attracted. It seems like its very rare to have it both ways–a man say age 22 who has a good jobs and means to support a family and who still hasn’t been tempted yet. One or the other is going to give.
“As I’ve mentioned before, women delaying marriage are playing a collective game of chicken in order to avoid wasting any more of their youth and fertility on their husbands than absolutely necessary. Obviously not all women are playing this game, but those who are delaying marriage are implicitly betting that the men their own age or a few years older than them will ultimately decide marrying an older, less fertile, more demanding and more sexually promiscuous bride is better than not marrying at all. ”
Don’t statistics show that the most successful and longest lasting marriages take place between university graduated mid to late twenty something professionals? This demographic composes the upper middle class. On average aren’t the husbands in such pairings around 3-6 years older than the wife?
So now we’re into rescuing maidens?
This blog sure has gone downhill.
The women you’re talking about are the most privileged, protected, and sheltered no matter what the culture is. They will always be the last to receive any ‘signal’ other than those no matter how much piling on is done. They cannot imagine any other world (why would they?) and by the time reality forces them to they don’t like it one bit because it’s a step down. Too bad. In a Wile E. Coyote sort of way.
You can’t rescue someone with a reserved seat in the lifeboat.
Women aren’t available for marriage because they’re already married to the State. I hope it chokes and dies on the useless surplus inventory it both helps create and depends on for votes. The sooner the better.
@ LGR
There are always dangers. But if the Church raised its sons and daughters right, and supported them as it should, then they would be reduced. Alas, that is not happening.
Excellent blog. I am from India but I have lived in USA for a while. I believe the break-down of family system in Western culture is inevitable. Just look at the concept of cohabitation of unmarried partners. Your writing style makes your blog a pleasant reading experience
@donal
Agree. So, the million dollar question is –now what? Because of church and parental failures, Christian singles are now on the same level playing field as secular singles. And that 80-90% number of Christians who aren’t virgins, speaks to that.
If men marry young then the onus lies with women to put aside their kept homemaker dreams and work alongside with him to get their family off the ground.
Dalrock writes,
“I’m not arguing that women will react to data, I’m arguing that their choices (along with men’s) are largely ruled by emotion. If you want to argue that women aren’t (or won’t continue to be) ruled by emotion, you have your work cut out for you.”
I agree with the GREAT BOOKS FOR MENZ dat yes, womenz are ruled by emotionz.
I also agree that many modern buttehxtualz menz have no honor and are ruled by emotionz lzlzozolzozo.
However, I believe that the GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN and BIBLE endure because they are ruled by honor, wisdom, morality, and Natural Law, which transcend emotion. The Ancients recognized woman’s tendency to disobey God and lust after da serpetn loststas occkasz.
The BIBLE exalts a CODE OF HONOR which REWARDS MEN for living by honor and reason. THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, and THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR’S WIFE’S BUNGHOLEZ are saying THOU SHALT NOT BE RULED BY EMOTION.
Of course, that’s why the frankfurterz had to deconstruct the Bible.
Dalrock writes, “I didn’t make an assertion in this post either way about women blowing up their marriages, but I would argue that divorce just like marriage comes down to the emotions of fear and greed.”
C’mon Dalrock. Marriage is rooted in the Law of Moses and Jesus. You know this. Fear and Greed may govern the bernakified form of marriage, but nor MARRIAGE as defined by the Moses & Jesus.
Dalrock writes, “Right now very large numbers of women are lured into divorce by the greed sold to them via EPL and the Jenny Erikson’s of the culture. Likewise, large numbers see the reality of their divorced peers and are prevented from divorcing by (rational) fear. A shift by married women away from greed and towards fear would tend to stabilize marriage a good deal, given that:”
1) Women drive the lion’s share of divorces.
2) Even when men have the clear SMP advantage (when their wives are older) they are extremely unlikely to initiate divorce.”
Dalrock, you contradict yourself. Women drive the lion’s share of divorces, and thus obviously have no fear of being single and blowing up families.
Dalrock, women have committed over 60,000,000 abortions by their choice alone. If one can murder so easily, do not be surprised when they lie or cheat or blow up familieszlzizizlzoz… They fear not God, heed not his Warning, and jump on the lsostas cockasz Serpentz whenever Adam isn’t looking.
Woman have not the moral imagination nor constitution to fear God nor Consequence. The Ancients recognized and built civilization itself upon this premise.
@ LGR
True, but that dream was always based on a false premise. Its seems as though those who hold such dreams never read Proverbs 31. Of course, given the poor teaching going around, that isn’t surprising now, is it?
“There are always dangers. But if the Church raised its sons and daughters right, and supported them as it should, then they would be reduced. Alas, that is not happening.”
The Christian Dominionist sub-culture, with its patriarchy, stay at home daughters and homeschooling is making it happen, is it not?
@donal
Exactly. There is an idolization of a Victorian/50s life that they want to recreate. Of course its the life of upper class Victorian or 50s woman. The middle and especially the lower were always working. If a woman from 1900 wasn’t working in a factory or as a housemaid, she was a hardcore, back-breaking homemaker, not surrounded by modern appliances and pinterest.
“I don’t see your point here, IBB. The reason that most women aren’t marrying in their late teens or early 20s isn’t because they can’t find men interested in them. Most women aren’t marrying then because they don’t want to, aren’t ready to, or aren’t marriage material.”
The vast majority of young men in their teens to mid twenties, who show interest in these young women, are not ready to marry either. Nor do they want to.
“I don’t see the problem here. Why can’t Anna Botkin find one, not even ONE, qualified man for marriage?”
Because…
“The Christian Dominionist sub-culture, with its patriarchy, stay at home daughters and homeschooling is making it happen, is it not?”
Not really. Too small of a group to make a dent in a declining culture. Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
deti – I think you left a possibility out as for why the Botkin girls are as yet unmarried.
Perhaps they’re just nuts and no man wants them?
As an example, let’s look at Jennifer Aniston. No, she’s not the chaste princess, but she’s a remarkably attractive woman. Yet Brad Pitt left her for a woman that is observably unhinged.
So while on the surface those women should have potential suitors lined up around the block, men are getting good at spotting the head cases and avoiding them.
“The vast majority of young men in their teens to mid twenties, who show interest in these young women, are not ready to marry either. Nor do they want to.”
Then why couldn’t a 21 year old Anna Botkin find a man in his late 20s who IS ready to marry? Why couldn’t a 25 year old Anna Botkin find a man in his late 20s or early 30s who IS ready to marry?
The men are legion who would have gladly courted her.
Anna Botkin was a 25 year old unmarried virgin because she wanted to be. Had she wanted to marry at 20, 21, 25 or any time in between, she could have done so. She had the looks, the skills, the virginal status and the pedigree. The only fault for it is her own.
From the video clip: “any young man who could ever lead, is smart enough to know he doesn’t need…..(something about “in-laws” like these).”
One reason the Botkin types are not married. Any leading, Dom man doesn’t want to compete with parents such as those. She is suppose to leave parents and cleave to him, but her father will always be overbearing.
Women wanted this SMP. Women wanted an SMP in which they got to decide; they got to call the shots, and they got to sit in the drivers seat.
So, they are going to have to step up, ovary up, and start making it crystal clear who they’re interested in.
So if a chaste Christian girl is interested in a particular guy, she needs to throw pout unmistakable IOIs that even Grandpa wouldn’t miss.
She’ll have to make it very clear to the object of her affection that there is NO WAY she will nuke him if he makes a move.
She will have to make it very, very easy for him to approach.
If girls like Ashley Schnarr and the Botkins want to court and date men, they will have to enlist their fathers’ help. They will have to get out there and meet men, even ask men out.
Christian men are running scared. So many of them have been burned beyond recognition by this SMP.
You Christian ladies are going to have to do the work on this one.
@ C4C
Great video. It does seem like many Christian fathers, though well intended, really do make things worse for their children. Probably has always been the case to some degree, but feels worse nowadays.
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Any Christian girl who can’t get a date or a serious boyfriend isn’t looking in the right places, or is too unattractive, or (most likely) is turning away and nuking suitable men left and right.
Dear LG Robins:
That video was pretty funny, but also fairly accurate. I gotta tellya, it’s not just religious girls who are saddled with parental baggage, and it isn’t always “Electra Complex” fathers who are the problem, either. (Hopefully GBFM got that reference to Freud, as I know he’s a huge fan of Uncle Sig’s work).
Any girl who has been raised by a single mom, religious or not, is likely going to believe she has a duty to take care of mama for the rest of her life. Women like these (both woman and daughter) generally have unhealthy “BFF” type relationships, punctuated by endless cycles of fights and reconciliations. They tend to see men as accessories rather than partners or husbands, and when married, the unfortunate dude often finds himself kicked to the curb by daughter whenever he tells mama to butt out of their affairs.
Seen it happen, far too often to count the instances. Poor boundaries between parents and children are clearly a prevalent obstacle, and a compelling complementary video could be constructed around “mommy’s girl, living in a matriarchal world”.
Boxer
“Then why couldn’t a 21 year old Anna Botkin find a man in his late 20s who IS ready to marry?”
Scroll up and watch the video. From what I’ve seen that scenario is not uncommon in that particular cult. And one of their biggest leaders just got kicked out of his church and multi million dollar ministry for having an extramarital affair with a many years younger young lady who was raised the same way the Botkin sisters were raised, that is to marry young and have lots of kids to take dominion of the earth. The cult leader’s affair with her began when she was a mere teenager. The older men in this cult don’t seem to want to let their beautiful daughters and the beautiful daughters of other men go.
Threads to watch:
How to support husband’s career (imagine how that’ll go…)
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=843994
Miserable!
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=844013
“85% of Scandinavian peoples (Norwegian, Icelanders, Danes, Swedes, Finns). Marriage is already dead in much of Europe. Domestic partners is the norm. I.E. cohabitation but without the ceremony.”
I consider committed cohabitation to be marriage.
“If girls like Ashley Schnarr and the Botkins want to court and date men, they will have to enlist their fathers’ help. They will have to get out there and meet men, even ask men out. ”
That’s not how it works in their cult. They do a thing called courtship whereby the parents arrange for a young man of THEIR liking to court their daughters. Two of the Botkin girls’ younger brothers are already married with kids. Ben married a few years ago at the age of 20 and already has a child. David married a few years ago in his mid twenties and already has two children.
“Bingo. No matter how lopsidedly-bad the deal that is modern marriage is for men, they keep doing it. Men want commitment so bad that some of them will figuratively (and often literally) cut off their balls to get it.” –Cane Caldo
Thing is, what is it biologically in those of us who have managed to see the shears before they’re unsheathed? Why do some men have some sense of self respect and self preservation, while others haven’t a sliver of those impulses?
The impact of 2 target audience characteristics on appearance modification was examined. Women participants were led to expect an interaction with an attractive or unattractive male or female target (randomly assigned). Female raters assessed the amount of cosmetics worn by participants both before the experimental manipulation and on the day that they returned for the anticipated interaction. It was revealed that women wore significantly more makeup when they anticipated an interaction with a highly attractive target, irrespective of sex, wore the same amount of makeup when anticipating meeting an unattractive woman, and wore significantly less makeup when expecting to meet an unattractive man. These findings are congruent with a self-presentational conceptualization of appearance and provide evidence that attractiveness and sex/gender are powerful social cues that elicit behavioral displays from others.
Regan, Pamela C. “Cinderella Revisited: Women’s Appearance Modification as a Function of Target Audience Sex and Attractiveness.” Social Behavior and Personality: an international journal 39.4 (2011): 563-576.
“Female raters assessed the amount of cosmetics worn by participants both before the experimental manipulation and on the day that they returned for the anticipated interaction. It was revealed that women wore significantly more makeup when they anticipated an interaction with a highly attractive target, irrespective of sex, wore the same amount of makeup when anticipating meeting an unattractive woman, and wore significantly less makeup when expecting to meet an unattractive man. These findings are congruent with a self-presentational conceptualization of appearance and provide evidence that attractiveness and sex/gender are powerful social cues that elicit behavioral displays from others.”
OK this explains why masses of American women have let themselves go and show up in public looking unkempt. They assume the men they will be crossing paths with in the grocery store are unattractive anyways so why bother?
“Thing is, what is it biologically in those of us who have managed to see the shears before they’re unsheathed? Why do some men have some sense of self respect and self preservation, while others haven’t a sliver of those impulses?”
You have to understand Tom that the biological drive to survive and replicate our DNA is the strongest drive in human beings. Men want to leave behind a biological legacy in the form of offspring and we want to be a part of our offspring’s life. That’s why we marry.
Young Christian Ladies, the reason Christian men are not willing to commit to you is because you are seen as no safer marriage bets than are your non-believing sestren. For those precious few of you who clearly show yourselves in word and deed to be “not like that,” I am sorry and do indeed feel for you. Unfortunately, you have what can best be described as a “proximity problem.” You cannot in any meamingful way distinguish yourselves from the entitled, hypergamous, shallow, selfish herd.
All of your promises and protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, growing numbers of Christian men now realize that should you grow unhaaaaaaappy or find some other man who makes your gina tingle more than your husband does, odds are overwhelming that you will abandon the laws of the God of Abraham for the power of His satanic rival, the State*. As long as this is an available option to ANY woman, Christian or not, marriage for any man, Christian or not, is a fool’s gamble, not worth taking with ANY woman – even one who lives an exemplary Chtistian life (until she becomes unhaaaaaaappy).
(On this subject, the names Amy Grant, Sandy Patti, and Jenny Erikson should have a familiar ring to them.)
@ IBB
You are wrong when you say there was no better deal to be had in a women’s younger years. That’s precisely when her window of opportunity exists. Men ARE willing to get married while these women are wasting their youth away on everyone else but there future husbands.
“Young Christian Ladies, the reason Christian men are not willing to commit to you is because you are seen as no safer marriage bets than are your non-believing sestren. For those precious few of you who clearly show yourselves in word and deed to be “not like that,” I am sorry and do indeed feel for you.”
Boxer had a good suggestion. We Christians will probably need to start looking outside of our religion for spouses. I’ve known some very happy and successful inter religious families.
Young Christian Ladies, the reason Christian men are not willing to commit to you is because you are seen as no safer marriage bets than are your non-believing sistren. For those precious few of you who clearly show yourselves in word and deed to be “not like that,” I am sorry and do indeed feel for you. Unfortunately, you have what can best be described as a “proximity problem.” You cannot in any meaningful way distinguish yourselves from the entitled, hypergamous, shallow, selfish herd.
All of your promises and protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, growing numbers of Christian men now realize that should you grow unhaaaaaaappy or find some other man who makes your gina tingle more than your husband does, odds are overwhelming that you will abandon the laws of the God of Abraham for the power of His satanic rival, the State*. As long as this is an available option to ANY woman, Christian or not, marriage for any man, Christian or not, is a fool’s gamble, not worth taking with ANY woman – even one who lives an exemplary Christian life (until she becomes unhaaaaaaappy).
(On this subject, the names Amy Grant, Sandy Patti, and Jenny Erikson should have a familiar ring to them.)
Co-sign.
@Opus
“”If wedlock is so wonderful, why do my married friends and acquaintances envy me and tell me endless tales about their bad-tempered, spendthrift, aging, near-menopausal spouses.””
I get the same thing.9 out of 10 of my married friends have told me,constantly,that it was the worst mistake that they have ever made and if they had to do it again,they would not! They are also always telling me how lucky I am to be single and DO NOT get married or shack up with a woman.Being observant and listening to advice from other men has saved me a lot of time,money and BS that I do not need! Another point.I happen to know that 90% of a Call Girl’s clients are married men.I know this straight from their mouths.Why do you think this is?…..if wedlock is so wonderful.
As a guy I say, “screw marriage completely”! An occasional just for sex fun is ok and nothing more. Still I would rather have absolutely zero relationship than get taken for a ride at divorce court and have the lawyers tag along to ride the money train. I can be alone for free as opposed to being alone and still shackled to child support, alimony payments. The cultural statistics don’t favour marriage turning out good.
Reblogged this on The Andrade Archive.
@cdw100
“”In meeting women my own age, I understood that they were mostly mentally ill, financially, emotionally and physically broken down, and of no value. There SMV was almost ZERO, and my age and wisdom made this clear. As I have entered my mid 50′s, it has worsened, and now add the 40 somethings who are totally screwed, it is a feeding frenzy for guys like me””
Yup!……I can concur with this as a 48 year old single male.I could run them through my office every hour on the hour 24/7 if I chose to.The one thing that I have noticed more than anything about women my age(of which I have zero interest in) is how mentally unstable they are.I mean they are very seriously F***** Up in the head! All of them delusional,all on medication(usually anti-depressants),debt,etc..etc….the list goes on!
@GT66
“”The limit has been reached and it is that marriage has become such a liability and intolerable risk for men that they would *rather* be alone for the remainder of their years than release a rabid badger backed by free legal counsel into their homes. MGTOW is the response to this situation. Place your bets.””
Excellent analogy!
“I get the same thing.9 out of 10 of my married friends have told me,constantly,that it was the worst mistake that they have ever made and if they had to do it again,they would not! ”
Interesting. Do they regret having kids too? I’ve met a few couples who openly admit they regret having them, not in front of the kids of course. And I know one couple where one parent regrets having them and the other wants more.
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It all comes down to this.
Men don’t want to get married for very logical reasons.
Women don’t want to get married in their youth for emotional reasons.
“There is no reason for a man to get married before 35-40 and no reason for a girl to delay marriage past 20-25.”
So, if a woman of 20 marries a man of 40, then 40 years pass and the man dies, the woman is a widow at 60 with 20 years of life expectancy and no spouse. Sounds like a sucky deal to me. No, marrying someone around the same age is still the best deal for all concerned. It’s been ancient wisdom, folks. Don’t fight ancient wisdom.
@gbfm:
“Dalrock, women have committed over 60,000,000 abortions by their choice alone.”
Oh, I guess the millions of boyfriends threatening to leave their women in order to coerce them to have an abortion are all innocent. I’m all for executing women who have abortions on the charge of first degree murder. I’m also in favor of executing boyfriends who coerce women to murder.
@theasdgamer
Would that be the strong empowered women we are told that women now are; women with moral agency? Personally I do not think I have ever met a woman who did not do exactly what she wanted.
Frankly (given what one hears from some of the women writing here) a sixty year old widow would be the ideal situation for a female to be in.
“So, if a woman of 20 marries a man of 40, then 40 years pass and the man dies, the woman is a widow at 60 with 20 years of life expectancy and no spouse.”
That’s why children are important to have.
Besides her spouse could die at any time…she should be so lucky to have 40 years with him.
My grandmother has been a widow for nearly 20 years and her husband died when she was in her upper 60s.
She also has twleve children…so she is pretty well taken care of.
My Maternal Grandmother died at seventy-seven, but was outlived by her husband who was eleven years her senior. The only thinking certain in life is Arithmetic – as Socrates tells us – otherwise one must consult (the) God(s).
Do you have a source for this ridiculous claim? In a society where there are pregnancy crisis centers (the kind that help new mothers; not the killing kind) in every town, not to mention WIC and numerous other forms of assistance, and childless couples willing to pay a girl’s medical expenses plus a “bonus” in exchange for adoption, how exactly does a boyfriend with no legal control whatsoever over his unborn offspring “coerce” the mother into an abortion?
If you can be “coerced” into killing someone by being told “I won’t love you anymore unless you pull this trigger,” you weren’t too opposed to it in the first place.
@ Denise:
“There are too many young Christian, chaste women pining for a husband to simply say they weren’t signaling enough. (Google “ring by spring” panic, for instance.)”
I would venture a guess that most of them have stratospheric standards and are nuking men left and right.
“Also, young women being socialized with men of the same age leads them to be most interested in and able to relate to their age peers and to feel uncomfortable with men who are older. This also means that there are real life differences between an 18 year old and a 25 year old that may not have been present generations ago. “
If she wants to get married badly enough, she’ll consider older men who are ready to marry, rather than 19 or 20 year old men who aren’t.
“Plus, many college aged men truly are not ready to marry and therefore make poor prospects. Some young women thus learn that marriage isn’t coming soon and *learn* to focus on other things. For instance, I remember a man telling me once that when he was in college he met a young woman who had “everything” he wanted; but he wanted to spend that time by himself (read: sow wild oats) and broke things off. He tried to connect with her a few years later but she was “enjoying her single life” as he says, and it didn’t work. She wasn’t like that when he met her young. “
Actually most men are learning that marriage isn’t coming soon, because these women either (1) don’t want to marry now; (2) aren’t ready for marriage now; (3) aren’t marriage material; or most likely (4) make it clear they don’t want to marry those men who are showing interest in them.
“I’m sure an 18 year old woman would get a lot of attention online. But the suggestion overlooks the fact that most 18 year old women would find it creepy to put themselves online like that to be courted by random older men that they have never met. And many people are not comfortable with online dating at all. “
Creepy or no, if a woman wants to get married badly enough, she’ll do what it takes.
If a Christian virgin female isn’t married, it’s most likely because either (1) their standards are too high; or (2) they aren’t attractive enough; or (3) they aren’t looking in the right places and/or are rejecting suitable men; or (4) they really don’t want to marry.
“Moving forward, UMC white men and women are almost certainly going to continue marrying, although they will probably continue to marry somewhat late (late 20s at least).”
Considering the more and more lopsided aggregate sex ratio in colleges, that doesn’t appear likely. About one in five college-educated women won’t be able to find a husband unless they emigrate or polgyamy becomes legalized.
“So, if a woman of 20 marries a man of 40, then 40 years pass and the man dies, the woman is a widow at 60 with 20 years of life expectancy and no spouse.”
Says who? She can put up a profile on Our Time. Plenty of old folks get married. But these days they are more likely to shack up, date, hook up or friends with benefits. They are also contracting STDs at alarming rates across our nations retirement communities. One thing is for sure, they are getting more action than MGTOWs.
@deti…
Like it has been said before women are terrible when it comes to cause and effect.
When it comes to having a hard time getting married…they are the cause and they blame the effects on men.
I don’t know if repeating the same thing over and over will convince women of this or not. But props for the persistence.
Ancient wisdom is marrying someone the same age? I disagree. That is modern wisdom that started with age segregated public schooling where we are all forced to socialize with those close in age to us. As we go through life, we tend to gravitate towards the same and feel uncomfortable around those in another age bracket. The modern church does this too, breaking all their ministries into age groups, when really we are all one body.
I remember reading that the “ancient wisdom” from a Greek angle was woman age 20, man age 30 (though I can see the problem here from a Christian angle).
Anna Sofia and Elizabeth Botkin work for their father’s empire. This particular cult’s theory is that the dreams and plans of the father are the only dreams and plans children should have, none of their own. See Geoffrey Botkins “200 Year Plan” seminar to see what I mean. Adult children are under the thumb of their fathers their entire lives in this Christian Dominionist sub culture. For more than a decade those two young women have been the driving force behind all of their father’s projects, doing most of the foot work for him and providing him with financial income. Why on earth would Papa Botkin want to give them up?
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“Do you have a source for this ridiculous claim? In a society where there are pregnancy crisis centers (the kind that help new mothers; not the killing kind) in every town, not to mention WIC and numerous other forms of assistance, and childless couples willing to pay a girl’s medical expenses plus a “bonus” in exchange for adoption, how exactly does a boyfriend with no legal control whatsoever over his unborn offspring “coerce” the mother into an abortion?”
It’s just one of the ludicrous and baseless myths invented by tradcon broads.
Yes, as I said, in the final analysis, it ends up being the fault of men. Men don’t see the good girls because they’re not overtly slutty. Men aren’t growing up and becoming responsible.
The truth is, men will do what it takes to get laid. We’ll build cities, go to war, and invent vacuum cleaners, just for the opportunity to have exclusive access to sex with an attractive woman and put babies in her. We will certainly grow up and get a job before age 25 if that’s what it takes, just as past generations of men did. It doesn’t take that anymore, because women started putting off marriage and stopped requiring a ring before sex.
That’s not entirely the fault of women; it’s also the fault of elite men and politicians who pushed feminism for the sake of cheap labor and tearing down traditional institutions. And it’s certainly not the fault of the 18-year-old girl who wants nothing more than to get married and make babies but can’t seem to meet any men who want that. But it’s also not the fault of the 23-year-old boy who got suckered into thinking he needed a government-approved credential to get a decent job, who now can’t get hired because his industry has imported cheaper workers from overseas, so he’s stuck in a rut of working temp jobs to pay the bills and drinking beer with his friends on the weekend. He and the good girl are both victims, and they’re both going to have to swim upstream to get what they want — even to meet each other.
For the boy, that means learning a trade that can’t easily be replaced or starting a business of his own, and working hard, long hours to get ahead. That’s not really going to leave him a lot of time for girl-hunting. So for the girl, it might mean being more proactive — not just showing up to things and waiting for the social men to approach her, but asking around if there are single men in the congregation who aren’t there at every mixer (because they’re working late). If there’s a guy who comes alone and leaves right after the service, don’t assume he’s weird or anti-social; ask about him. If she wants marriage — which we’re assured these wonderful girls do — she needs to go after it.
This not seeing good girls myth needs to stop.
If a woman is attractive a man will notice her. I notice all the attractive ones…from the overtly slutty ones to the modestly dressed ones. All the woman is advertising is how willingly she gives up her body. Sure more guys will go for the easier thing…that doesn’t mean those are the girls getting married at a better clip.
In fact…I would venture that good men are more invisible to the female population than the other way around.
@Opus
You are confusing feminist propaganda with the way that women actually are in alpha relationships–submissive.
@hoellenhund2
Idk, are you incapable of googling?
http://forum.wewomen.com/forum/f61/__f415_f61-Please-help-me-boyfriend-threatening-to-kill-me-if-i-dont-have-abortion.html
http://www.careconfidential.com/Stories/1227.aspx
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130811195151AArmUB0
http://www.afterabortion.com/social.html (here it’s about parents coercing women)
“Empirical studies have also demonstrated that male coercion and pressure play a sizable role in many women’s abortion decisions. A survey from the Medical College of Ohio, for example, examined 150 women who “identified themselves as having poorly assimilated the abortion experience.“ Of the 81 women who responded, more than one-third felt they had been coerced into having an abortion. Fewer than one-third initially considered the abortion themselves.
In cases where women initially chose to bear the child, their male partners were opposed to the decision by a margin of eight to one. In all of these cases, the man withdrew his support for his partner “thereby eliminating that alternative.“ ”
Some of us have actually counseled women seeking abortion and know that boyfriend coercion (alpha dread/dominance coercion) is a major factor in women seeking abortion
Sounds like you are in denial of the truth.
Oh, and for all those in the manosphere on their high horse about women cheating on their husbands–at some point in their lives, 40% of wives cheat on husbands and 60% of husbands cheat on wives. I know it’s politically incorrect to say that here, but you all pushing this “women are crap and men are their victims” ideology need to quit being douchebags. Men are victims of women and vice-versa.
@Marissa, @lgr, et. al.
As regards ancient wisdom about marriage between similar ages–I’ll back off the ancient part of the claim. It’s only been ancient for the last hundred hears or so. Back when childbirth had high mortality, it made sense for younger women to marry older men. Nowadays, not so much, unless she wants to be a widow with a cold bed for a decade or more before she croaks.
@C4C
Exactly who will a 60-year-old widow marry? Maybe some gamma? What is her SMV?????? No question, the promiscuity option is open to widows, but that’s irrelevant to my point, isn’t it?
@earl
Kids can definitely be an asset, but they don’t warm your bed much once they hit puberty.
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Re: Cail
“The ones older than 25 or so, if they’ve lived away from home for more than a few years, have also gotten very set in their ways — not just in what they want in a husband, but in things like where they want to live, what kind of house, how many kids, etc. They have little room left for accommodating a new person in their lives, let alone committing themselves to his mission in life.”
I’d say the key factor isn’t that they’ve lived far away from home, it’s that they’ve lived alone for years. This has become the norm for an increasing segment of young people, which is unprecedented in history. It’s very easy to get used to living alone – you do whatever you want in your freetime, you sleep as late as you want in the weekends, you wear what you want at home, you watch what you want on TV etc. This is how you get set in your ways, and your psychological capability to tolerate another human being of the opposite sex sharing the same household with you and to make the necessary compromises basically atrophies. Some bad habits and quirks set in, and so on.
This didn’t used to be the case, because normally people lived in extended families living in relatively small houses, and then they moved out when they got married. One had no other choice but to learn how to put up with the close and permanent company of other people, but now this pressure is gone. I think the impact of this isn’t so large on men, because men are relatively more flexible in their lifestyle and are more willing to put up with unpleasantness and hardship. But it nevertheless seems to be a fact that a sizable segment of young people have pretty much become incapable of making the kind of compromises necessary for cohabitation and marriage, because they got used to being set in their ways, as you say.
@ theasdgamer
Going to need some studies for this one.
@ Cali…
How you describe things is just the modern day version of Adam, Eve, the apple, and the serpent.
The serpent is elite men…telling women to eat the apple of feminism…men decided to follow that route so they could keep women in their lives. God (or red pill) comes in because feminism is obviously the wrong route. Men blame women for eating the apple, women blame the elite men for tricking them into eat the apple, the elite men will get the harshest punishment (although it will be after a lucrative stay on Earth at first). However it is all a turd sandwich and we have to take a big bite.
Michael,
A beautiful 23 year old girl with no debt, high SMV, and a college degree has both astronomically high MMV and SMV. She doesn’t just wake up one day and decide that today, she is going to get married. She has to be asked.
They aren’t getting asked. That is the problem. Sure there is value there, but very few are cashing in on that value.
I have asked 3 women if they were interested in marrying me (one I presented a ring for a formal engagement) but all THREE said yes, they wanted to marry me. Women want to be married (from age 20 to whatever.) They may not know what they want in a husband at their younger ages, but they know they want to be married. They want a husband. Feminism could never crush that.
Michael, have you ever actually asked a woman if she might be interested in marrying you? I’m serious.
@ cdw100
That’s basically what I’m doing. There are tons of available single [and married] women. You just have to put yourself out there.
The prevalence of mental illness and drug addiction among these females astounds me. I’ve had a couple of psychos flip out on me. Very embarrassing.
What younger single men sometimes don’t understand is that it is entirely possible to have a full, fulfilling, exciting, satisfying life without getting married.
Yeah, that’s what I meant. They may have roommates, but they’re in charge of themselves, making their own day-to-day decisions without any masculine oversight from a father or husband. After several years of that, they tend to have a pretty firm script for how they expect the rest of their life to go, and it’s hard for a man to fit into that.
I think that’s a bigger problem for women than for men, for some reason. Maybe just because it’s so unnatural. While a man might get set in his ways about some things, like how he spends his Sunday afternoons or how long he’s going to hold on to his recliner, most unmarried men don’t seem to develop a detailed script for the future. In fact, the complaint seems to be that many single men develop NO goals or plans, so they have just the opposite problem of women living alone.
@IBB
This is nonsense. A rejected marriage proposal is not only very rare, but a sign of a colossal miscalculation on the part of the man. I have no idea where the idea comes from that women traditionally field multiple proposals and then pick the best one. My only guess is women’s fiction. There are I have no doubt women who have turned down proposals, but the situation is rare, and the kind of man who offers unwanted proposals is by definition lower beta if not omega. These aren’t the kind of men women are interested in marrying either way. The missed opportunity for a young woman doesn’t look like a marriage proposal declined. It looks like the date she didn’t get asked out on because she didn’t seem interested.
How many women did you propose to IBB before one of them said yes? For the other men here (married and unmarried), how many rejected marriage proposals have you made?
“I have asked 3 women if they were interested in marrying me (one I presented a ring for a formal engagement) but all THREE said yes, they wanted to marry me.”
And at what period of time did that happen.
Because I’m in the dating reality now. I’ve asked one…and the job was more important. Other times I’ve been dumped over matters such as “not feeling it”, she wasn’t exicted anymore, or her job. It seems tingles and career are more important to a woman in the present before getting married is.
I know of one 26-y.o. Christian woman, probably a 7.50-8.00/10, who has received four (4) marriage proposals.
She rejected every one.
Dalrock,
That is correct.
Well Dalrock, it comes from THIS nonsense….
You are the one who said it. They are not delaying anything. There is no game of chicken as they aren’t refusing things they aren’t getting. These girls aren’t getting any marriage proposals which is the exact reeason WHY they are wasting their fertility. They aren’t being asked. That is what I said in the very beginning. It is as true then as it is now.
None.
Number 1 I broke it off when I determined she was BPD.
Number 2 I lived with and broke it off when I determined that she could never pay a bill and I could never-EVER trust her with my checking account or joint credit cards.
Number 3 is who I am happily married to….
@LBF – How many dates should it take for a woman to determine that she’s not going to marry a man? I’m guessing she knows after one, maybe two. Did she string any of these men along to get as many free dinners as possible before sending them on their way?
Because if she’s rejected 4 proposals and she dated the men more than a couple times, then she’s not interested in being married.
It’s hard to take any of you seriously about this when there’s never any mention of RISUG/Vasalgel in the posts or comments.
It’s astounding to me how you can all just sit there and stupidly ignore the elephant-shaped weapons of mass population destruction ticking away happily in the corner of the maternity wards.
WINTER IS FLEEING SOMETHING WORSE
VASALGEL IS COMING
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@Brian
There does seem to be a small group of women who have received multiple marriage proposals. In my experience they tend to be very much on the pretty side, sweet/feminine/friendly, and very upfront about their desire to wait until marriage to have sex. The rejected proposals come from misguided beta orbiters, who seem to assume that the lack of IOI is due to the woman’s purity. A woman’s rejections in this circumstance doesn’t indicate that she isn’t interested in marriage, however if she goes this way for many years then it almost certainly is an indication that her expectations don’t match with reality. Even here though, we shouldn’t fault a woman for choosing not to marry a man she doesn’t burn with passion for.
Very small. So small, that I’d argue that their circumstances have no meaningful impact on the data.
Dalrock – If she wasn’t interested because of lack of attraction, why did she let a beta get to the point where he had the gumption to ask her?
Or are we talking about a woman who rejected a man who asked within an hour of meeting her?
@brian
In the situations I’ve heard of the woman was asked by men who knew her but were clearly in the friend zone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man_(1973_film)
Kind of an odd parallel.
@IBB
But this is my point. If you look at the census data, nearly all white women in the US are getting marriage proposals, but they don’t get them until they are ready to say yes. To the extent that a lack of proposals tells us something about a woman’s desire to marry, they are more an indication that she isn’t interested in marriage than an indication that she is.
Interesting quote from the Atlantic article about the guy at the beginnig of the article:
” Many of Jacob’s relationships become physical very early. At one point he’s seeing a paralegal and a lawyer who work at the same law firm, a naturopath, a pharmacist, and a chef. He slept with three of them on the first or second date. His relationships with the other two are headed toward physical intimacy.
He likes the pharmacist most. She’s a girlfriend prospect. The problem is that she wants to take things slow on the physical side. He worries that, with so many alternatives available, he won’t be willing to wait.”
We all knew the above was the case. Just interesting to see a mainstream article put it out there and seem somewhat perplexed. If that’s the correct word. Or maybe as if they’ve just uncovered some devious new knowledge that no one else knew was going on.
No it’s not. Did you read Dalrock’s response to this nonsense before you repeated it? They never get a proposal because they block the process before it gets that far. I just finished writing about this in more detail at my own blog because it got too long for a comment here, but they’re not delaying marriage by refusing proposals, typically. As Dalrock said, men rarely propose without knowing in advance what the answer would be, unless they’re the kind of “creepy” men no woman wants anyway.
Women are delaying marriage by not letting the dating relationship get to the proposal stage in the first place. Many do it by going ahead and sleeping with the guy; once he’s getting the milk, he has no particular reason to propose, so she can enjoy the relationship until she doesn’t want it anymore and then move on, gaining “experience” to prepare herself for marriage at some future date. The ones who are chaste or less slutty often do it by LJBFing the guys who have picket fences in their eyes, either driving them away for good or trying to keep them orbiting until she’s ready. Or she dates a guy for a while and then betrays him somehow to drive him away before it gets too serious.
There are many ways she can make sure she never gets anywhere near a proposal from a man she’d actually consider marrying, so that when she’s 34 and still single, she (or her father) can claim she never married because no one ever asked. it’s crap.
she’s clearly signaling that she’s not marriage material.
In my 20s, I was shocked by women and how they behaved. I tried to imagine them as mothers, but I could not. I wondered what was wrong with them I still do.
So how many resources do women truly need?
When do they have enough?
Exactly…it’s hard enough to get to three dates with a lot of women…much less the engaged stage.
It’s either hooking up with them, friend zone, or being ignored by the lot of them for most men.
Men are pretty logical when it comes to a marriage proposal…they aren’t going to propose to a woman that keeps telling them no in some way when it comes to a relationship. I know of two of my married friends where the woman made it clear what she wanted from the guy (marriage) or she was going to walk. And these women were around 20 when it happened. If women want to get married…they can easily in their youth.
Married 21+ years – never had a proposal rejected.
For IBB and the others, let me share a PERSONAL ANECDOTE:
The Wife and I have a good friend, let’s call her Anna. Devout Catholic, in the choir and can sing like an angel, blue eyes, auburn hair, great figure, in good shape, chaste and a virgin waiting for marriage. The Wife and I met her when she was 24 and hopeful for a husband.
‘In the meantime’, she said, ‘I am working on my education while I look for a husband’. A PhD in Chemistry. We warned her that perhaps she needed to save money and work on domestic skills….
At 25 she started dating John. John is a great guy – CPA, doing well, owns a 4 bedroom home, a paid-off new Mercedes. Devout, in the men’s group, admittedly a virgin waiting for marriage. We set them up and he joins our parish shortly thereafter to be closer to Anna. After 8 dates he flies to Anna’s home state to ask her dad permission to court her. Great. after nine months he tells me he is going to propose and we are so excited!
She turned him down.
She refused to even date the next three guys we tried to set her up with and eventually dated a recovering alcoholic for 5 dates as her longest relationship post John.
She gets her PhD and a flashy job in Manhattan, so she moves. We talk often;
“There are no men” she says “No one worthwhile to even date” she says.
I know guys in Manhattan. I set her up with a friend-of-a-friend. he is a widowed Catholic CEO. Devout, three lovely kids, daily communicant, wants a wife who is really, really Catholic; he is worth 8 figures.
My mutual friend tells me that after 7 months he proposed and she turned him down, cold.
About 3 weeks ago she called me, sobbing her eyes out. Her 32nd birthday was just a week away and she was no closer to having a husband.
I am about to tell her I give up when she says, really small,
“Did you hear?”
“What?”
“About John and Beth?”
Beth was who John dated after Anna refused him. 9 months later they were married. That’s about 4 years ago,
“Yeah! their 3rd child is a girl! they told us at Mass. We hope to be at the baptism. Why?”
“I told him no because he was balding.”
“What?”
“I told John no because he was balding. And now Beth has a bald husband and a home and 3 kids.and I have a cat.”
“Why did you say no to [the CEO]?”
“He already has kids. I am afraid they would hate me”
Over the next 20 minutes she told me of the 8 proposals I had never heard of and why she had turned them all down. Two other widowers with kids; three were too short; one was too tall; one was ‘only’ a plumber (with his own company who owned 3 homes); and one had a silly laugh.
I asked her
“What are you going to do now?”
“I keep praying for God to send me a husband….”
“Sweetie, he already sent you ten”
Dalrock,
Yes they are, eventually. This part I agree with.
This part I do not agree with. They get them when they are little older (and that age for first proposals continues to go up because men increasingly wait until they are older before proposing. Young men (even young Christian men) have many more secular interests than they did even 20 years ago, they have more options outside of family life. They are increasingly choosing those options.
Average age for first marriage for a woman is (what?) about 26.1 years old now? Dalrock, I think you and I will see that hit 30 in our lifetimes. Honestly, I think this is less a result of men shying away from asking and instead, a product of people having longer and longer lifespans. As our health care gets better with more technology and diagnostics, men (and women) become more and more choosy because they think they have more time. And, they do have more time. It is just that women’s fertility still stops at about 45 (or so) so although she may live longer and longer, her baby production time isn’t lengthening all that much. Tick-tock, tick-tock.
Yes as Cane said in his excellent post, she needs to send out signals that there is desire to marry. And young men quite often pick up on those signals. Alas, they aren’t asking even with the signals (whihc is what Bee, SSM, and a few other ladies were telling us.) And why? Well I think that marriage just doesn’t offer to men the kind of benefits that they were used to getting, and with the “threatpoint” if offers far more risks. I think we can both agree that men (even God fearing Christian men who are anxious to marry) very carefully weigh all those “threatpoint” risks particularly if they have a lot to lose….
…I know I did. That is why I put the kibosh on my first two engagements.
Farm Boy
So how many resources do women truly need?
Need? Or “need”? The answer to the second question is “More”…
“Well I think that marriage just doesn’t offer to men the kind of benefits that they were used to getting, and with the “threatpoint” if offers far more risks. I think we can both agree that men (even God fearing Christian men who are anxious to marry) very carefully weigh all those “threatpoint” risks particularly if they have a lot to lose….”
That’s the effect.
But the cause for the marriage delay is women. Which apparently you aren’t getting.
AD,
God gave us Free Will. That is a great power for us, a great gift to man from God. But with such a great gift comes great responsibility. You must use this gift, wisely.
But God is no dummy. God (in His infinate wisdom) designed Free Will such that this woman (of her own choosing) removed herself from the marriage market for whatever reason. I would argue that this woman excersizing her choice to say no is a great thing for those ten guys. And why? Because clearly, this woman is not wife material. She is too focused on what she is getting from the marriage, not what she contributes to it. Her self-centered focus freed the men up to find great wives which it appears they have done.
This is the system working as it should.
IBB: I have a son about to turn 17. He is *highly motivated* to be married before he turns 21. He is already at technical school and has a job offer pending his graduation/turning 18. At that point he will earn just $25k a year for the first three years while he attends training then he will be a union mechanic making about $45k/year. If he pushes through he will be able to support a family at 18.
No degree, no debt, Plans to own a house outright at 20.
He is tall, strong, devout.
Question: If a 20 year old mechanic asked your oldest daughter to not go to college but rather marry him, what would you have said?
IBB: I think you are missing the point of my personal anecdote.
I think IBB is going to believe whatever he wants to believe on this subject.
It’s all man’s fault despite the anecdotes, what other men have experienced, what women are doing, or what studies are showing.
Earl,
Possibly. But hope springs eternal.
@Aquinas Dad
Nothing you said in your story about Anna surprised me. Sad to say. I meet so many women these days who are in their thirties but who live the lives of children. I guess they do so because they can. Because there are few repercussions in our fat and happy society. If grrl power fails, there is mom and dad to do the bail out, if that fails there is some poor schlub to rope into marriage or living with or helping her with her bills, if that fails, there is always government largesse. Yee-haw!
Puzzled,
I really found Dalrock, etc., about 4 months ago – I was asked to speak at a singles group about marriage. I did a little research, sent my notes and was stunned at what the group leader did want me to speak about (which isn’t germane here).
But after a group of women, all early 30’s, all with masters or hgiher, all with ‘careers’ approached me ina pack and one asked me,
“Can you tell men to stop being intimidated by us, please?”
My rather brilliant answer was
“Huh?”
The sidekick of the first replied,
“Men are intimidated by our education and success. How can you get them over that?”
“I have never heard of that”, I said
“What do you mean?”
“Well,” i replied, “I have dated and have a lot of male friends, many of whom are single, and I have never, in my life, heard a guy say ‘I would date her, but she is too educated’ or ‘I’d like to date her, but she is too good at her job'”
You would think I had slapped their granny.
Since then, I get it.
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Ah the old initimidation line.
Women hate hearing this…but it’s not that men are intimidated by their education or success (hell men like successful people)…
It’s that we don’t like their me only attitude and demands.
AD,
I don’t think I have enough information here. I like the way you think and I understand the point you are making. What would I have said given the limited amount of data you have given me, I’d ask him why its an either-or.
Get married young, fine! I think that’s great. I have a nephew who is a junior in college and he is married to a sophomore in college. I have a niece who got married at 19, and she graduated college at 22 and had her first baby at 24. The system worked perfectly. But I’m putting my daughter though college not him. She’ll come out with no loans because she’ll go to a school that I can afford. He doesn’t have to worry about paying for her education or paying off her debt, there wont be any. I know how hard it is on kids to be saddled with all that debt, so as a father I want to do all that I can to make sure that is not an issue.
Why would he say, marry me don’t go to college? Why do that to her? Why not say, marry me. Oh you want to go to college? Great. Lets go get married. She’d probably go for that.
Why the either-or? Is there something that he would be afraid of? I answered your question so answer mine. Is that a question rooted in fear?
to avoid wasting any more of their youth and fertility on their husbands than absolutely necessary
This speaks volumes, does it not?
to avoid wasting any more of their youth and fertility on their husbands than absolutely necessary
And not wasting it on their kids either.
I thought that women liked babies. I suppose that is really a social construct created by girls playing with dolls.
IBB: Your reply is even worse than I expected.
Which is scary.
First, my son wouldn’t let his father-in-law pay for his wife’s college.
Second, if she is to be his wife and the mother of his children first, what is the degree *for*?
Third, you seem a little fuzzy on how Catholicism works – no birth control. No delaying kids once you are married without a really serious reason. He really hopes for a child within a year of marriage.
Fourth, you didn’t answer the question.
I don’t think IBB even realizes how he is playing a part in sabatoging his daughter’s chances of getting married.
Earl,
Could he be a really good troll?
Now if I had a daughter…I’d do the right thing and tell her that finding a good man to get married to is more important than an education. If I had a son…it would be the reverse. I’d teach him all the skills I know and make sure he finds a mission in life. He’s got to have skills to earn money and attract woman.
A woman can always get an education…she only has a 10-15 year window to get a man.
Besides how many stories do we hear about women getting a degree (usually worthless) and ends up working as a paper pusher or HR…or disregards it altogether once the first kid comes in. You don’t need a degree to shuffle papers.
AD,
It shouldn’t be.
Well that is admirable but I am not sure that is even up to him.
Depends. Here is three things off the top of my head that maybe YOU didn’t consider.
Your son loses his job or her career is automated out of existance. I have seen this happen many times to many skilled positions where the person working was making big money. IT (which is what I do) has a nasty habit of automating jobs right out of existance. What is worse, many professional jobs that require a given skill set (like being a mechanic) quite often (thanks to dignostics and technology) find their jobs reduced to that of “general help.” This is what happened to my grandfather as a machinist at his machine shop. His job, because it was so well “formed” that it eventually became something that you could be trained to do in a couple of weeks not years. So it is real nice if the wife has some valuable education if the family needs income, is it not?
What if they have 2, 3, or 4 kids, they raise them and by the time the last one is in high school, my daughter is still young enough to work outside the home, she wants to? How is this a problem? Maybe one of their kids has a handicap and the family needs extra earning power to support that child for life? Did you ever think of that Dad? Maybe you should consider that when you are speaking at that pre-cana (or whatever it is) singles group?
Moreover, lets say she can’t have kids? Lets say her womb is (God forbit) inhospitible? Does that mean your son has the right to leave my daughter and end the marriage? What about that Dad?
I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know everything. But I also admit that it is better in every marriage (that is supposed to last a lifetime) when the husband and wife both have more OPTIONS to make sure the marriage is a happy one.
No I know exactly how Catholicsim works. The way it works does not apply to me or our children as they are not Catholic.
I did answer your question. You asked me what would I say? I told you what I would say to the young man who might be my son-in-law. Now, how about you answer MY question Dad (something YOU did not do?) Why the either-or?
@AR
That’s why the basic sales pitch and enticement to the maidens being made here is: ‘our’ lifeboat has MORE! and better shit for them than those other brand lifeboats they’re already sitting in.
Where are they going to get ‘more’ from? One guess.
Dump the stupid useless wimminz overboard. The sooner the better. They don’t even know how to row in a straight line, so they’ll just flounder and perish anyway.
Earl,
I have told this tale elsewhere, but of the women I know who had a degree then were divorced years later unless they had been actively working that degree (to the detriment of the family) it was effectively worthless. One – an MA in English. Husband dies; until she got a certification in book keeping from the community college the best job she could find was waitress. The other a BA in anthropology – who is now a birth and lactation aide after (again) a tech college cert
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Inspired by this post and the comment thread:
http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/why-cant-i-find-a-husband/
Tip of the hat to Cappy Capitalism on the worthless degree angle. I went to school and got a degree that was nothing but math and sciences. If the degree doesn’t have those (STEM)…it is worthless. Most women won’t go anywhere near those degrees.
And here’s a shocker…my job is in the field I got the degree in. If I wanted to ever change that…I’d go into a trade field like plumbing, a/c heating, or mechanic.
.
“And yet, according to the Journal of Couple and Relationship Therapy, approximately 50 percent married women and 60 percent of married men will have an extramarital affair at some time in their marriage.” http://www.catalogs.com/info/relationships/percentage-of-married-couples-who-cheat-on-each-ot.html
@general
I had one marriage proposal to my college gf rejected (as expected) and one accepted. I consider that a good outcome.
IBB:
“First, my son wouldn’t let his father-in-law pay for his wife’s college.
Well that is admirable but I am not sure that is even up to him.”
BING! There it is! You would dictate to your son-in-law what HIS WIFE will and will not do and if he will or will not take your money. That isn’t a husband, that is an accessory for someone else’s daughter! Classic.
“[IBB brings up a bunch of goofy hypotheticals of ‘what the future holds is a mystery’, blah, blah]’
Yeah, and aliens could invade, too. Your only justification for why your daughter *needs* a degree is – ‘what if she doesn’t have a husband to support her?’ or a mild variation of.
“Moreover, lets say she can’t have kids? Lets say her womb is (God forbit) inhospitible? Does that mean your son has the right to leave my daughter and end the marriage? What about that Dad?”
Yawn. Avoiding my question.
A woman can easily get a certification or training or even a degree in her 40’s, 50’s, and beyond. She only has a limited time to have children, though. Thus, delaying marriage *and children* is to some degree a one way trip but delaying education is not.
And since you don’t seem to get it otherwise, let me be very direct.
My son wants a stay-at-home wife, not a career woman who he is married to.
He wants a large family, and soon.
There is no reason for a woman focused on marriage and children to have a degree with a few small exceptions (and neither ‘someday he might leave’ or ‘its like a pre-nup’ aren’t on that short list)
Folks, I now have a theory as to why IBB’s daughters are not receiving proposals of marriage.
They’ve met him.
Now I wonder if the recent statistics are crap: “Eighty-five per cent of female respondents and 74 per cent of men said that sexting is cheating.” http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/10/18/why-people-cheat-_n_4118291.html
“Why the either-or? Is there something that he would be afraid of? I answered your question so answer mine. Is that a question rooted in fear?”
Because college leads to the carousel.
They won’t be getting married, she’ll meet a guy she “just clicks with”.
Of course that won’t work out and she’ll meet another guy…
She’ll realize she “wants more” out of life…etc.
This is also why women should not have jobs outside of the home.
She’s constantly running into men more accomplished than her trade school educated, devout husband, the results are predictable.
Earl,
I have a degree in Theology.
And it has opened a ton of doors for me in IT! Yes, really. I am in ethical compliance and security (and a few other things)
AD,
I took your hypothetical seriously. You had to be an @sshole. My points were clear and spot-on and (hopefully) made you think a little. I asked you one question and here is how you answered it.
Real smart Dad. Do everyone a favor, stop leading that pre-cana group.
Bullsh-t dad. Let me translate your bullsh-t.
Your son is afraid that his wife will be smarter than him, will fall out of love with him, and leave him, which is why he does not want her to go to college. Your son is a coward. That’s it. You want to help your son dad, teach him some self-esteem. I suppose in order for you to do that, you need to develop some for yourself first.
I’m done with you.
I find it funny that in the last 30-50 years all of a sudden women needed an education…”just in case”.
I guess all that time leading up to now women were constantly working without a safety net…and that’s why the human race and civilization died out.
John South,
Maybe, if she isn’t already married.
I don’t get this idea as to why kids can’t get married AND go to college. I didn’t say AD’s son couldn’t marry my daughter. Maybe he can. And maybe she’ll be married in college. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Think outside the box guys.
Yup…IBB is the reason why his daughters aren’t getting engaged.
No son in law is going to be stronger to his daughter than dear old dad. They are all cowards compared to him.
And I’m sure his princess has adopted that attitude as well…if she hears anything like what he is saying on the internets.
Married women cheat all the time, could be with the professor. Women put themselves in these positions all the time and then claim it “just happened”.
Nonsense, she insisted on it. Just like girlfriends who demand to be taken to bars to be hit upon.
Any situation where she is running into these kinds of dynamics should be avoided.
Some semi-worthless degree in paper pushing or literature is not worth the risk.
IBB:
You *still* haven’t said yes or no to a good, devout, employed, stable young man with a paid off car and a home.
I get it, though – it is ‘no’.
Your daughter MUST have a degree, for no reason other than she MUST. Delayed marrige? So what? Fewer kids? So what?
BTW, everyone, everything I told you about my son is positively true with one exception how much he will earn when his training is over- he is in an apprenticeship program with a major manufacturer and the ‘three years of training’ will be to finish his degree in engineering. He *will* be a licensed diesel mechanic, too, so that was true. When he gets his degree the pay is $95k a year, not $45k
By the way, IBB, that was, yes, part of the test. In Real Life the Wife, my son, and I are keeping it to ourselves.
And i am not trying to be an asshole, pal – YOU are the guy that doesn’t think it is up to a woman’s husband whether or not she goes to college on someone else’s dime! No self-respecting man would put up with something like that from his father-in-law
“Because I’m in the dating reality now. I’ve asked one…and the job was more important. Other times I’ve been dumped over matters such as “not feeling it”, she wasn’t exicted anymore, or her job. It seems tingles and career are more important to a woman in the present before getting married is.”
Have you considered that these women just weren’t that into you, personally?
After reading this, several other Dalrock’ posts & many many of your responses I’m now to a point of truly not being sure that I ever want to get re-married. Yes I said it, re-married. I was one of the blue-pill saps for a long time. My now ex-wife decided to pull a Jenny Erikson on me because she decided she didn’t want to be married anymore. (no kids thank god) At this point I’ve now completely flipped to being a red-pill guy & never looking back. A post a bit ago about NEXT! completely converted me to the red-pill, thank god.
Unfortunately I have to say that I’ve come to the conclusion that I very well may never get re-married due to all of the very very spot on comments made by so many not only in this post but many others. I honestly thank whoever wrote the NEXT! comment/post as I have employed that tactic so often its not funny. That tactic works so well that I don’t know how I survived the dating world without it. 🙂
Cheers,
Xence
I haven’t read all the comments, but as a 28 year old chaste woman who is looking for marriage, I do have some of my own thoughts on this matter for whatever they are worth. (Full disclaimer, I am getting to know a young man who SSM connected me with and that seems to be going well thus far so we shall see where that goes).
There have been several reasons brought up why women are having trouble finding men:
1) Not attractive enough. I can see how this would be an issue and do know women for whom this is the case. I do have long hair, am not overweight and enjoy dresses and skirts. At any rate, I do get interest on the secular side so I would think that I’m not entirely unattractive.
2) The checklist is single, Christian man who wants kids and likes dogs which whom I have chemistry. From my own experience, the biggest difficulty there is in finding men who are more than nominally Christian. I’m not looking for a Bible scholar, but am not willing to consider someone who pushes for pre-marital sex (or rationalizes only one specific version of sex actually counts and that everything else should be on the table) or who claims to be Christian, but who really just thinks Jesus was a nice person who gave some good moral advice.
3) As for looking in the right place, it would be great if people could offer suggestions. I started looking in church because that seemed like a logical spot to find a Christian man, but unless one is willing to church shop to look for men (which seemed to me to be prioritizing the wrong thing in looking for a church), there man not be many men in any particular congregation. I did screw up when I was younger in that I limited spending time with guys to groups (I went to a church that embraced the I kissed Dating Goodbye philosophy and predictably had a number of years where none of the young people got married). I was successful in avoiding temptation, but at the expense of meeting guys and getting to know them.
4) Men not interested in marriage. I’ve encountered a number of men in this category in my age cohort. They’re looking at the legal fallout in their father’s, or in their friend’s father’s, lives as a result of a woman being unhappy and are deciding that the payoff doesn’t justify the risk. The related group is men who may be interested in marriage, but who have been driven away from the church as it becomes increasingly feminized which makes it hard for a Christian girl to meet and identify them.
5) Rejecting tons of men. I haven’t been, but I do know girls who are single because they have done this. I’ve also seen guys who aren’t as interested in pursuing marriage because they see women rejecting men for fairly superfluous reasons.
6) Poor signalling. This is an area where I struggle because our cultural narrative is so backwards. I’ve had to watch women who are better at this and try to emulate them as so much of what I was taught to do is completely wrong. I spent my early twenties following the approved script and getting a degree and then getting a job in order to demonstrate that I could be a responsible adult. While I don’t have any debt associated with that choice, it did take a considerable amount of time and that was time not spent finding prospective suitors. While I thought I was doing the right thing by demonstrating focus and whatnot, focusing on something other than marriage and whatnot is in itself a signal…
7) It hasn’t been raised yet, but I focused too early on prospective guys. There is a time cost associated with getting to know a guys and feeling out compatibility. I looked only at one guy at a time in a misguided effort to be kind and treat men like people with feelings. I also didn’t ask important questions early and as a result wasted a lot of time with the wrong guys.
Those are my own personal observations. I’ve passed on advice to younger women about picking what they really want and then structuring their time to reflect those goals instead of doing what I did, but who knows if that will have any impact given the broader cultural narrative…
No woman is ‘in to’ you unless you’re an alpha.
Well that is admirable but I am not sure that is even up to him.”
BING! There it is! You would dictate to your son-in-law what HIS WIFE will and will not do and if he will or will not take your money.
BOOM Headshot.
“Now I wonder if the recent statistics are crap: “Eighty-five per cent of female respondents and 74 per cent of men said that sexting is cheating.”
Sexting is definitely cheating if you are married.
Je Suis Prest,
Thanks for that.
Since I replied on here, I’ve been hearing a couple of other reasons why virgin Christian women aren’t getting swamped with marriage proposals, in an obvious attempt to deny my stated reasons of (1) don’t want to; (2) not looking in the right places; (3) not attractive enough; and (4) nuking good men.
I’m seeing:
1. She gets NEXTed when she declines sex.
2. Daddy is her alpha male. Either daddy keeps her on a short leash; or no man will ever be good enough for daddy’s little girl.
The first is really an offshoot of “not looking in the right places”. If this is happening to a girl, she needs to figure that out and then start looking elsewhere.
The second could be a real problem; but I think it’s pretty rare and limited to cloistered communities. Mostly, I think “daddy won’t let me” is a copout; a way to blame men for female dating and relationship failures.
AD,
I don’t care what your son does for a living. I hope he a million dollars a year. God willing he will. And don’t care if my response gets your approval or not. And I hope your son finds what he is looking for in a wife. That is all I can do.
You asked me what I would say. You did not ask me if I would say that I wanted him to marry her or not. All I want from any son-in-law of mine is a young man who will love my daughter for the rest of his life, give her everything that he has, and be devoted to her. Unfortuantely, that simple thing seems to be a very tall order in this day and age. Too many kids are getting divorced and I want none of that for my kids. As parents, we need to do all that we can do to try and mitigate this from happening. Part of preventing divorce from happening is to do all that we can to make sure the marriage in question has many options available to it when the inevitible happens and crisis hits. But ultimately (as any parent knows) there is very little we can control. One of the worst things a parent has to do is sit back and watch their NOW adult children make a series of bad choices and learn from their mistakes. Of course you already knew that since you counsel a church single’s group.
Let me offer you a little bit of advice. Take it or leave it at your own choosing. A common theme here at Dalrock’s blog is “GAME.” This is something that men do with women to help keep them in line, keep their wives desiring them. It is partially NLP but really mostly its a matter of confidence A confident male exibits quite a bit of “GAME.” I’ve seen it. I’ve used it. It works. If your son had “GAME” it wouldn’t matter if your daughter-in-law went to college. She would be attracted to her husband and his confidence. I’ll admit I don’t know everything about it (and I am simplifying a bit) but it would cut down on some of his fears, I promise you.
Do as you will.
“BING! There it is! You would dictate to your son-in-law what HIS WIFE will and will not do and if he will or will not take your money.”
The Botkin girls are in a similar situation.
My small little tidbit of advise that should help out.
If you’re not attractive, don’t get married.
JSP –
Minor point. When you say one of your items on your checklist is that you and he have ‘chemistry’, you’re effectively writing a blank check for any number of additional items that can fall under that one requirement.
Not saying ‘chemistry’ is unimportant, or that you’re wrong for including it on the list. I’m just saying that if your contention is that your list is small… no it isn’t. Maybe you had no chemistry with the guy because he was too short. Or too tall. Or stutters. Or eats with his elbows on the table. Or etc.
Regardless, good luck with SSM’s dating service. I hope it works out for you.
Chemistry can be interchanged with ‘tingles’.
Denise @ December 10, 2013 at 4:37 pm
When I briefly searched for “ring by spring”, the articles that came up were not especially “for” it among college students:
“Ring by spring” is still a thing? The article opens:
And later:
“If you’re not attractive, don’t get married.”
Or marry someone as equally as unattractive as you are, maybe even less. That way you’ll be the more attractive one.
“Part of preventing divorce from happening is to do all that we can to make sure the marriage in question has many options available to it when the inevitible happens and crisis hits. ”
Crisis in marriage is not inevitable.
@Sunshine Mary.
I took the Engineering Diva to listen to the Messiah on Tuesday. She made a comment that when she was working in China (she emigrated in her 30s) she wore the national dress which is tailored. Once you get one made, you have to watch your weight for every pound shows. So all Chinese women watch what they eat, so their clothes continue to fit.
Which comes back to the US women — comparing Vodie Bauchan (spelling?) daughter who is slender and pretty at 21 and the “What a feminist looks like” — I’d go for the skinny pretty one who is not my skin colour.
On Homeschooling kids — yes, it is not going to rescue the culture. But it will save the knowledge. Think of it as a lifeboat, particularly for boys, when the schools punish you for ordinary play (like cowboys and indians). Little boys will make guns out of fingers. Wise teachers punish that as infrequently as punishing girls making dolls out of blocks.
Additional: us men need to do the gym and stay strong so we don’t injure and it makes us more attractive. Even a plain woman can be fit, and that makes a huge difference on attractiveness.
Come on, it’s basic girl game.
Je Suis Prest:
Re: “Not looking in the right places” and your request for suggestions.
Church is probably about the worst place for men and women to try to find each other right now. Men are gunshy about dating girls they attend church with because church is prime nuclear rejection territory. What’s more, too many church girls have hypergamous requirements in the stratosphere and there’s not a man alive who could possibly measure up to their demands.
For women, there aren’t a lot of men in church. To put it delicately, most devout men don’t have the suite of attraction traits girls want. Far, far too many girls deceive themselves into thinking “He prays a lot” and “he leads me in devotions” and “he goes to church three times a week” is attractive.
My suggestions:
Join a group that includes men and women. Dancing clubs, community theater, art appreciation, a museum committee. Get on the board of a local not-for-profit or do volunteer work. Get involved in a political party (if that’s your thing). Do charity work not connected with your home church. Even if you don’t meet men through that group, you will meet people who know eligible men.
Take dancing lessons, especially ballroom or salsa. You’ll learn a rapidly disappearing art, and get to meet and touch men.
Play a co-ed sport, or even a sport with only females. A softball team, volleyball, swimming. Gets you in shape and puts you in contact with both men and women.
gdgm,
Without even looking at the link, I’m going to guess that BYU is probably #1 in the country for women working on the old MRS degree.
” But it’s also not the fault of the 23-year-old boy who got suckered into thinking he needed a government-approved credential to get a decent job, who now can’t get hired because his industry has imported cheaper workers from overseas”
And yet people here are still advising American boys to go into STEM, the bastion of the H1B visa crowd that drives down wages and salaries.
Je Suis Prest, thanks for the self-examining information. There are some women I may pass it on to. Pondering your points will take some time, but I have one meandering comment to make.
I think that your point #4 and point #6 are really two facets of the same thing. That is, a woman in the modern world who wishes be married (as opposed to get married) needs to signal that message, and not just the “I wanna get married” message. She needs to signal to the son of a broken family that she’s not like the gal who married Dear Old Dad. If her own parents are divorced, she needs to signal “I’m not like my mother in that regard”. And even if she comes from an intact family & the man she’s interested in likewise, she still needs to signal her loyalty – unconditional loyalty – is available to the man who marries her.
There’s a fine line to tread here, perhaps. She can display loyalty to her family in general and her father in particular, but she needs to not go overboard with the latter because one key element of any real marriage is this: the woman transfers her loyalty from her father to her husband (this is something IBB is missing for now, but maybe will see clearly in time). In Bible terms that’s a key part of the notion of “one flesh” – loyalty matters more in the long run than sex, loyalty is what enables women like SunshineMary to remain with a man who is seriously injured.
That level of loyalty probably is not natural, or inherent, but is rather learned behavior. In the context of a church, it could be signaled by a woman’s obedience to the structural aspects of the church. For example, by attending / belonging to a denomination that doesn’t allow women preachers, and being ready to defend that notion in a modest (not strident) but firm manner.
Again, thanks for revealing some of yourself in those comments. It is refreshing to read.
Deti
Take dancing lessons, especially ballroom or salsa. You’ll learn a rapidly disappearing art, and get to meet and touch men.
+1 on this, because as a bonus a woman gets to signal to men, in a very real and physical way, “I will follow your lead”.
IBB:
“You asked me what I would say. You did not ask me if I would say that I wanted him to marry her or not.”
You actually write this and thought it meant something? Really?
“Too many kids are getting divorced and I want none of that for my kids. As parents, we need to do all that we can do to try and mitigate this from happening. Part of preventing divorce from happening is to do all that we can to make sure the marriage in question has many options available to it when the inevitible happens and crisis hits.”
So – do you think divorce ‘just happens’? Are you completely unaware of the hard statistics on divorce? It seems so.
BTW – you keep speaking about the ‘pre-cana’ group I ‘teach’. As i clearly stated, I was asked to speak at a singles group. Once.
“If your son had “GAME” it wouldn’t matter if your daughter-in-law went to college.”
Uh-huh. This from the guy who wrote,
“Well that is admirable but I am not sure that is even up to him.”
in regards to his wife or (worse) father-in-law telling him how to run his household.
Let’s ask the other commenters, shall we?
Guys and galls: Which displays better “game”; my son telling any potential spouse that he expects her to be a stay-at-home wife and mother that he will provide for, or that it is quite A-OK with him if she finishes her degree in whatever major while her daddy pays for it?
“Which comes back to the US women — comparing Vodie Bauchan (spelling?) daughter who is slender and pretty at 21 and the “What a feminist looks like” — I’d go for the skinny pretty one who is not my skin colour.”
Jasmin Baucham was the original creator of this Stay At Home Daughters theory and sub culture. I have a theory about why.
Deti: one of the best decision the Wife and I ever made was sending our sons to ballroom dancing lessons. Now they go to local dances for home schooled kids and have *clouds* of girls around them because the
Addendum on ballroom dancing: this only works for women who don’t try to back-lead.
A woman who backleads, or tries to, is going to get crossed off the dance card of any man who knows what he’s about (the only exception being a woman dance instructor, during a lesson).
Let him lead. Period.
One of the things a guy really should learn how to do is basic, simple ballroom dancing.
I have to side with IBB on this one because the only successfully married demographic of Americans of any statistical significance is the university graduated who marry mid-late twenties.
AD, IBB:
If a man and woman of college age want to marry, and he’s in college, it should work something like this:
He finishes college first. She supports him and helps him get established in his job. She has her babies. Then when the babies go to school, she can return to college or school or a training program if she wants to and if he and she decide it’s good for the family for her to do that.
Another strong endorsement of dance lessons, in my case swing dancing.
* Typically an alcohol free or low alcohol environment
* Dancers of both genders are generally comfortable touching each other non-sexually, are energetic, and are obviously interested in spending time away from the couch/bar/tv/Facebook
* Few, if any, heavyset people. If there are, see the last bullet. Likely, looking to change ways
* I’ve met a number of women doing this. Women of reasonable to good quality (women who belong to my conservative/reformed church). I tell other guys who I respect and are looking for fun to come to the lessons. I suspect other guys do the same. Haven’t been in a class yet with disproportionate male/female balance
* Avoid christianmingle. I was on it and maintain an account only because I bought months in advance. The word is out and I see the same women from the secular sites I first joined after my marriage. Likely, it will be over run with the dregs in six month, indistinguishable from the hookup sites.
Go dancing. Clean fun and higher quality prospects.
About the single bloggers, and why they’re single. Sorry, no time to read every comment, but something no one said that I saw: There are good reasons why a woman like that would be less likely than an average, similar woman to get married. Blogging is a poor signal that a girl would be a good prospect for marriage, even if she blogs about Christian things, and even if she does it well.
-Being a blogger is unlikely to bring her into contact with men at her level. If she’s not successful, or only moderately successful, then few will read the blog, and if she’s really successful she may end up meeting some really powerful men and getting her expectations for what she wants thrown out of whack, Jenny Erikson-style.
-The kind of man who would read a woman’s blog about her life is probably not a good overlap with the kind of man she would want to marry, so even if men did read her blog it probably wouldn’t help her meet good, attractive men.
-It’s not very enticing to want to be intimate with a woman who has spilled her intimate thoughts all over the internet. Not only do you risk ending up as a series of blog posts that other people would read about, but there’s something special about having a woman’s private life shared only with you that would be totally lost.
-If a man did read her blog he would know a lot of bad things about her right away that normally would get doled out over a long period of time. Even for a generally good person, to know all their flaws all at once can really turn you off of them.
-If she’s a really talented writer then it’s going to take a higher-status man to impress her. She needs to look up to him in something, after all, and if he’s not skilled with words he would need to be really amazing at something else. The more talented a woman thinks she is the more talents the man she wants will have to have (or the more game).
-The big one: her reader base acts as a huge circle of beta orbiters and vicarious girlfriends. Whatever she does, if they like her writing they’ll probably back her up 100%. Whatever a man does toward her that she doesn’t like, they’ll tell her is crazy and pure evil and she was right to be difficult. Being an attention-seeker is a huge turn-off because if she keeps it up or isn’t willing to complete quit after they marry it’s going to be a difficulty for her husband for the rest of his life.
Point being, I don’t think their difficulty marrying is necessarily representative. Obviously it’s easier to observe a blogger’s life, but being a blogger both indicates a certain personality type and itself affects the person’s behavior, and I think the signals given by that are very negative for the kind of guy they want.
It is Advent and so it is Handel time and I am pleased to read that Chris attended, but what he saw and heard was the sacred oratorio Messiah (no definite article provided by Charles Jennens in his libretto). Handel was a bachelor – and lived next door to Hendrix in Brook Street. Very strange.
Thank you.
@C4C
“”Interesting. Do they regret having kids too?””
No they do not.My (ex)-brother-in-law is a good example of this.He hates his ex-wife(my oldest sister)….but,he loves his kids…and is a great father.The problem is the C**t(my sister).She plays the kids against the father.Luckily for him that my brother and I run interference and he gets to see his kids 4 days out of 7…..versus the court imposed once every 2 weeks.If I had it my way I would take the kids and give him full custody.He is a much better parent than my Clusterf**k C**t of a sister!
Yeah,…. I looked up the actual article which was surprisingly hard to find.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J398v01n03_03#.UqjPl_RDtK4
Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy: Innovations in Clinical and Educational Interventions
Volume 1, Issue 3, 2002
Translator disclaimer
Title: Cyber-Sex — The New Affair Treatment Considerations
Surprise, surprise… the article is about cyber sex.
Something which all of the news articles fail to mention.
Je Suis Prest says:
December 11, 2013 at 1:50 pm
“There have been several reasons brought up why women are having trouble finding men:
1) Not attractive enough.
2) The checklist is single, Christian man who wants kids and likes dogs which whom I have chemistry.
3) As for looking in the right place, it would be great if people could offer suggestions. I started looking in church because that seemed like a logical spot to find a Christian man,
4) Men not interested in marriage.
5) Rejecting tons of men.
6) Poor signaling.
7) It hasn’t been raised yet, but I focused too early on prospective guys. There is a time cost associated with getting to know a guys and feeling out compatibility. I looked only at one guy at a time in a misguided effort to be kind and treat men like people with feelings. I also didn’t ask important questions early and as a result wasted a lot of time with the wrong guys.”
I would like to address several of these points based on my wife’s and my relationship. She is from a very traditional and religious Catholic community in the south of the Philippines. There is no divorce in the Philippines and the divorce rate for American men marrying Filipinas is about 20% instead of the ~50% for American to American unions. Having an upbringing with a standard that marriage is once and done does matter. She was 23 when we met and 25 when we married. She was very upfront from within a few minutes of when we met that she was a virgin and would be on her wedding night. She also said upfront and loud that she was only interested in marriage, and if I was looking for anything else then I should move on. So I think that your number 7 needs some work. State what you want and what you are looking for upfront and proud. Don’t waste your time and the guy’s time. Also number 4 was involved because apparently other guys not interested in marriage had come around first. This also addresses poor signaling (number 6) as with her forthright statements there was only one reason she would continue on with me, and that was because she saw the potential for marriage.
I can’t say really whether my wife rejected a ton of guys before me (number 5), but that is the sense I get from her family. They were not happy with me because I was going to take her far away from her family, but they were resigned to it as at least she was finally marrying someone. It wasn’t flattering but it was real. You should all note that in the Philippines 25 is a terrible old maid, and out of the age bracket for marriage. Most women are married with a couple of kids, or more, by that age. I should also state that all dating for the two years was chaperoned. A couple of weeks before our wedding she told me that I was the first boy she ever kissed. This kind of very controlled upbringing has another huge dividend for me and my wife; she finds marriage to be incredibly freeing and open compared to the close watch kept on her until then. She gets to dress better and go places her parents would never allow. For me the benefit is that she does not go crazy skank when we go out. She takes a step or two from her parental rules and that is far enough.
As to not attractive enough (number 1), that is very relative. I think my wife is very beautiful. She does not. I like it that way most of the time. When I compare her to many of the young women in the area where I found her, she is completely average. However, many of the women that were drop dead gorgeous I would have wanted nothing to do with. Character should be the first priority for a spouse. Compared to what is generally available in the west she is extremely good looking; slim, long hair down well past her waist, and with a very cute face. After she started to use makeup (only in the past couple of years) it got even cuter.
This has gotten too long so I will close here.
For the benefit of anyone who is still looking to IBB for advice, remember that educated =/= smart. Education never made anyone smart, but it has made many marginal people arrogant and dangerous.
The two women I know personally whom I would classify as NAWALTs, if I believed in such a thing, are both sweet and submissive even though they have IQs above 2SDs, were both married by 16 and never went to college, and have many children and grandchildren from what are now 34 and 37 year marriages.
When a female completes puberty or reaches the age of 15, whichever is later (they used to coincide, but puberty is now occurring at younger ages, probably because of endocrine disruptors), she has become a young woman, and is also as mature as she is ever going to be.
From that point on she just accumulates baggage, lots and lots of baggage (the weight of environment and experiences, and unmet needs). The emotional baggage and resulting damage are inevitable for many reasons (even if she remains chaste), one of which is that she needs dick, for example: http://canecaldo.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/a-refresher-on-the-basics-there-are-no-ugly-truths/ .
This is why, as other people have noticed and noted, chaste women in their twenties can tend to be much less than ideal. There are exceptions, of course, and they tend to be self-aware and superior people, such as Je Suis Prest.
When people talk about “age appropriate”, they tend to focus on physical age, rather than the levels of maturity at various ages.
A young man does not finish developing until 25+, at which time his maturity is present and fully formed, and far exceeds that of women. At this point, he is able to guide a young woman into becoming a good wife and mother, in effect to finish raising her.
The probability of success is very significantly higher if she is a virgin without baggage, especially since the age and maturity differences themselves will go a long way toward satisfying her needs and attraction triggers, she will not have lost any of her capacity to bond, and then the man’s greater confidence, experience and knowledge should take care of the rest. And by the time he is 35, they will both appear to be of the same physical age.
Excellent advice, AM. I’d just add that all styles of ballroom allow for physical contact and sometimes quite intimate contact. I’d advise wearing a dance belt for intermediate waltz so you don’t get hurt by some female thigh bruising your eggs, especially when doing a spin turn.
deti,
It should work any way that it can work to make sure it works for a lifetime. There are things that can be done prior to help get it there, but the goal should be to preserve the marriage at all costs (make it 1.0.)
We don’t have all the information for all people and all circumstances to make blanket statements. We only have a deep and meaningful resentment of frivorce. That should be avoided. And as parents, there are a few things we can do to help the kids avoid it. But that changes from couple to couple.
@All my manosphere brothers
Business News of the day!…….General Motors has elected a new CEO…a Womyn…UGH!….GM stock hit an all time high yesterday.Good for them.When a company elects a Womyn CEO you have a 94% chance of the the stock tanking into the basement.So for all you savvy investors in the Manosphere…..get ready to “short sell” GM equities.Don’t believe me?….read this….this is one of the criteria that I look for….and it has NEVER let me down!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/bundesbank-women-risk-taking_n_1385100.html
It appears that any education that eon got on young girls and their maturity (as to when it ends) might be arrogant and dangerous.
“Have you considered that these women just weren’t that into you, personally?”
I know they weren’t.
I’m just revealing what they said as their reasoning. And I don’t doubt many other men have heard the same thing.
Women have such high standards that when an interested man does come along that doesn’t fit their Prince Charming mold…suddenly she has a job that demands of her time or she isn’t feeling it. If a man ever does meet those things…suddenly she has tingles, the job doesn’t matter, and all the free time in the world for him.
We’re a nation of Mark Minters. Unmarried women will not pile up a day longer than they want to.
Mark,
I had a few comments over at Megan’s blog about this.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-10/gm-s-first-female-chief-has-an-incentive-problem.html
@Dalrock
“”If you look at the census data, nearly all white women in the US are getting marriage proposals, but they don’t get them until they are ready to say yes””
I don’t think I trust this data.Why?….I find that more women are looking for a “date” that could lead to a LTR or marriage.But,then again,I am in Toronto…..which probably has the worst single women in the world!….Opus will attest to this!….L* Again,I do not see women turning down marriage proposals…I see them desperate to get a date so that they might obtain a b/f,sex,LTR.etc….I see women everyday…..that are HOT!….that couldn’t get a date to save their own asses!
C4C;
Actually, the bride being a virgin on her wedding night is much more important.
And what us the average age if those college grad newlyweds?
IBB said: “It appears that any education that eon got on young girls and their maturity (as to when it ends) might be arrogant and dangerous.”
It appears that IBB:
1) Does not realize that “once a girl completes puberty, she has also acquired the mental capacity and become mature enough to care for the children that she can now bear, and this is the age at which adults begin entrusting young women to babysit and care for infants, alone.”
2) Is oblivious to how women act in the real world, has ignored pretty much everything discussed in the Manosphere, and has not even watched any of the “Real Housewives” shows.
This is a relevant article on this topic: http://no-maam.blogspot.ca/2012/06/woman-most-responsible-teenager-in.html
Women will say anything they want about relationships or getting married.
What matters is when the rubber hits the road. What are they doing to make themselves available for a relationship and how many men do they reject?
eon,
You know what eon, I’m of the opinion that I am much more aware of how women act in the real world than you are. As for ignoring the manosphere, you will not get any “concensus” as to when a female ceases maturing. Physically (at age 15) she might be able to get the job done from a mothering perspective. But emotionally? Rest assured eon, she has a LONG WAY TO GO. She better. If she stops emotionally maturing at age 15, she has a big problem.
You are correct in that I have never watched any of “Real Housewives.” If it isn’t sports or news, I tend not to watch TV.
Je Suis Prest,
Thank you for your comment. It’s nice to hear first-hand from someone who fits the description under discussion. Your experiences seem to mesh pretty well with what many of us have observed: girls are given a lot of bad advice which leads them to delay marriage, and good Christians of either sex are rare enough that one or the other can be unavailable in a single small church. But if you look anywhere else, the odds of stumbling over a person of faith are so low (that one’s equally a problem for men). What are the odds that the cute guy/girl you chat up at the grocery store is going to be a Christian, let alone a devout one in a faith compatible with yours? Not good. And at 28, if you’re looking at men in their 30s, you’re bound to see many who are divorced (not sure if “single” in your checklist ruled them out) or have otherwise been burned enough that they’re wary or uninterested.
It’s a bad situation.
What matters is when the rubber hits the road. What are they doing to make themselves available for a relationship and how many men do they reject?
Earl
It is all about who’s dick in in her mouth and pussy. sounds terrible but it has to be said with out the romance. Romance is bad for kids and young women.
@TFH: “This massive misallocation will correct, for technology always, always finds a way to topple or sidestep anything that is obstructing the advance of technology”
It is difficult to overrule tens of millions of years of biology….
And by “maturity” I mean a woman’s fundamental essence, and not secondary or derivative characteristics like how well she has learned to be a chameleon or manipulate specific structures of society.
This is similar to the concept of “moral agency”, which some have likened to a woman’s ability to make selections from a “morality menu” developed and given to her by men.
I prefer to think in terms of amorality and morality.
When most women are faced with having to make a choice, the idea of considering morality, whether intrinsic or from a menu, simply does not occur to them, just like when I evaluate a woman’s attractiveness, it does not occur to me to pull out a “Guide to Currently Fashionable Shoes”.
But when most men are wrestling with a decision, considering morality is automatic. It is an intrinsic aspect of their character, a fundamental part of their essence.
AD has IBB exactly right, and that’s why his daughters aren’t getting proposals – no man in his right mind wants to be the wife of his father in law. He’ll never be the man of the house, IBB will.
IBB will not settle for anything but an wealthy alpha for his daughter. Her chances of actually getting one? Slim. So, on to college and the carousel, or spinsterhood. There are simply not enough wealthy alphas to go around for all the college women with degrees in English literature and HR Paper Pushing.
As I said a few threads back, a lot of these fathers have some outright creepy hangups about their daughters. Like gamblers, keep hitting hoping to land Mr. Grey and then when they bust, complain about men.
It’s tragic. His daughter will likely grow to hate him for ruining her chances.
…
Also, seriously, what is the problem with going to college after the children are grown? Why not online education? In this day and age, traditional college is nearly passe.
These men are just intimidated by these educated wimminz!
Let’s assume it’s true – if so, it’s perfectly rational to not marry these women, if they are going to fall out of love and divorce him, isn’t it? So, never marry a woman with more education than you, or who makes more money. Perfectly rational.
Guys like Earl should simply avoid any college educated woman, and date 18 year olds straight out of high school.
@ Cautiously Pessimistic
You are correct that ‘chemistry’ is broad and could encompass many things, but I find a wide variety of guys attractive and it’s partly a two way thing so I couldn’t think of a better way to quantify that. Regardless, I don’t think it would be ethical to marry a man if I weren’t prepared to abide cheerfully/enthusiastically abide by the instructions in 1 Corinthians 7 so I include it on my list.
@ Aquinas Dad
You’re welcome.
@ Deti
Thank you for your suggestions. I did take up a coed sport as part of my diversification in meeting guys plan (and to meet people generally as I’ve just moved to a new city) and promptly tore my ACL and menisci effectively putting the kibosh on that and my plan to try a dance class for the time being (or to drive and walk lol).
@ Anon Reader
Thank you for your feedback. I think the challenge is that a number of women said all the right things about marriage being forever, and then pushed the big red button anyway. It’s got to be challenging for men seeking wives to differentiate between those who say the right things and those who will do the right thing.
Do you have any thoughts on how to display interest in being a wife as opposed to merely wanting a wedding? I was also advised to be cautious in terms of how to project in this area after learning that every single member of one social group had assumed I was married because I was, in their words, giving off a happy suzy homemaker vibe. Several of them had actually had a conversation wondering why I didn’t wear my ring. It wasn’t until I mentioned that I was looking for a man at a BBQ that they all let me in on this…
@ Mikediver
Thank you for your story. The two of you sound like a very cute couple! I have amended my strategy to be really upfront about what I’m looking for now, but I did make that mistake in the past. I wrote it out here partly as a warning to any other women who may be reading.
@ eon
Thank you for your kind words. I do suspect though if I were really smart that I would have figured much of this out far earlier lol.
“It is all about who’s dick in in her mouth and pussy. sounds terrible but it has to be said with out the romance.”
I’d take it a little farther.
It’s all about who’s dick is in her brain. Even the dick in her mouth or pussy might not even measure up to the one in her brain.
eon,
Call it whatever you want. I’ll call it physical and emotional maturity. One happens earlier for girls, guess which one?
And as I’ve said repeatedly, women aren’t moral agents. At 15? Ha, forget it. Clueless.
So do I.
Pretty much agree with all of that. I don’t know where you could have gotten the idea that girls stop maturing at age 15 though. That just baffles me.
@ Cail
I missed your comment as I was typing, but yes, I do think it’s a bad situation. While we are ultimately responsible row the choices we make regardless of the advice we are given, it is incredibly sad to me that both men and women are being told to do the very opposite of what works…
Hipster,
Right out of high school huh? (chuckles) Don’t you think there might be a problem in the relationship if you are a 33 year old man and she is asking you if you saw the latest Miley Cyrus, Justin Beiber, or Rihanna video on youtube?
@Hipster Racist
May as well post this here, as well:
For middle-class men, high physical attractiveness can render women desirable for dating, sexual relationships, and even marriage regardless of their occupation, income, and education — provided that they do not exhibit the obvious trappings of a lower-class status and lifestyle. In comparison, women appear unwilling to date, marry, or have sexual relations with low-income, uneducated males regardless of the men’s physiognomies and physiques.
Women with higher SES have higher socioeconomic standards for their male partners (Townsend 1989, 1998; Wiederman and Allgeier 1992). Higher-status women may shift their economic standards because they judge their own mate value to be higher — even though their income and occupational prestige are relatively unimportant to men. Alternatively, they may simply believe that men with inferior status and earning power offer few advantages and therefore do not merit their (the women’s) investment. These explanations are not mutually exclusive (Townsend 1998).
Townsend, John Marshall, and Timothy Wasserman. “Sexual attractiveness: Sex differences in assessment and criteria.” Evolution and Human Behavior 19.3 (1998): 171 -191.
Do you have any thoughts on how to display interest in being a wife as opposed to merely wanting a wedding?
Some ideas:
1. Tell the man in no uncertain terms that you will not have a diamond engagement ring. It is a very modern practice and an ugly one.
2. Tell him you’d like a very modest wedding and would be willing to do some of the expensive stuff yourself or with family assistance (if you have willing family).
3. Be clear about your financial acumen and ability to spend and save responsibly.
4. Ask him about his life’s mission, philosophy, child-rearing expectations, etc. People leave these conversations months away from the first date when ideally the topics should at least be broached.
and she is asking you if you saw the latest Miley Cyrus, Justin Beiber, or Rihanna video on youtube?
“Young” need not necessarily mean “dumb”. I know of a few women who are 18(ish) who aren’t that way inclined, and I would suspect there are a decent number of them.
“Right out of high school huh? (chuckles) Don’t you think there might be a problem in the relationship if you are a 33 year old man and she is asking you if you saw the latest Miley Cyrus, Justin Beiber, or Rihanna video on youtube?”
I’ve had degreed women even up to age 30 talk about celeb magazines, pop music garbage, and reality tv I don’t really care to know about.
At least 18 year olds give me the boner I need to overlook that nonsense.
What problem? See my “Flogging Miley” series for my take on Miley Cyrus that I happily discuss with my 21 year old dates. They are often quite fascinated as well. I prefer K. Flay myself, however.
I know, doesn’t it suck that men value different things in women than women value in men? It’s almost like we’re different.
Add on a discussion of deal-breakers – don’t wait until (e.g.) engagement to discuss important things like that (despite common support of the converse). I’d imagine the chastity discussion is best done sooner (and yes, the literature does support that, but fairly recently).
Is “Flogging Miley” a reference to the Irish/Celtic punk band “Flogging Molly”?
I had a long term relationship with a college educated woman my age once. She did have hipper music tastes than my 21 year olds. But teaching the 21 year olds about better music than Miley Cyrus is half the fun. Teaching them other things they didn’t know is also a big part of the thrill.
In fact if I had it my way…we’d hardly talk and do more dancing.
O/T: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/battered+women+morally+entitled+kill+abusers+professor+asserts/9270200/story.html
Marissa,
And a sexist one.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/the-strange-and-formerly-sexist-economics-of-engagement-rings/255434/
Basically, the diamond is about giving her money should the pervert break her hymen and then run! It was required back in the day (or here today at this blog with some of the younger perverts, lol!) when the only thing men valued in women is that they hadn’t yet been had by another man.
“Sexism” is such a tiresome word. One would have to deny reality to be perfectly egalitarian.
when the only thing men valued in women is that they hadn’t yet been had by another man
Do you have a source for that? Do you have a counter-claim (with evidence) for why sexual experience is/would be a desirable thing in/for a future spouse? Do you consider women “perverts” for requiring virginity in their husbands?
Anyhow:
Wright, Robert. The moral animal: Why we are, the way we are: The new science of evolutionary psychology. Random House Digital, Inc., 2010.
And: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519720/Man-ordered-pay-ex-50-000-cancelling-engagement.html
@MarcusD
Yes, it’s a play on Flogging Molly as well as, er, that other common theme on my blog.
Deti said:
Stayathome Daughter is run by Ashley Schnarr. She’s describing herself as being in a season of singleness.
She is reasonably attractive. Quite pretty, in fact. If she truly is what she represents herself to be, if she wanted a boyfriend, there’d be 10 Christian men on her father’s doorstep TOMORROW seeking her hand.
If she wanted to be courted for marriage, same story. At least 10 Christian men would be asking to court her inside of 24 hours.
Ashley Schnarr doesn’t want to be married. If she wanted to be married, she would be. Full stop. End of story.
Again: I do not believe that a reasonably attractive Christian girl cannot be courted or married — if that is what she wants.
This is completely on point.
Girls like Ashley who are in their prime, and completely have their pick of men, do not want to be married, or do not want what’s on offer. They’re holding out for Brad Pitt or George Clooney or DiCaprio. It’s just as simple as that.
And men that have any kind of discernment at all know as soon as they meet a girl like her; they are looking at decades of trying to please someone who is unpleasable.
when the only thing men valued in women is that they hadn’t yet been had by another man
Oh, never mind, I just realized that was a shaming attempt. Carry on.
Basically, the diamond is about giving her money should the pervert break her hymen and then run! It was required back in the day (or here today at this blog with some of the younger perverts, lol!) when the only thing men valued in women is that they hadn’t yet been had by another man.
The widespread acceptance of a diamond engagement ring is a twentieth-century invention by DeBeers, specifically a mid-1940s, post-war invention. It does not in the least surprise me that this generation, half of whom were having sex before marriage, raised the Boomers.
But I don’t understand your comment…Breach of Promise (or, hilariously, “Heart of Gold”) suits existed because families stopped keeping their daughters from acting on their lust and the state didn’t want to support a woman whom men did not want to marry. Realize that chastity is part family/societal reinforcement (young people of opposite sex are not allowed to be alone, unchaperoned;sluts are shamed) and part innate and taught low-time preference.
Chastity is one of the highest feminine values, so again, I don’t understand the bolding in your statement, as if that is a bad thing to value highly. Nor is it accurate that it is the only thing that was valued in the 1940s. I am a little lost as to what you’re trying to say…if you wouldn’t mind clarifying.
I have no idea what the dating market is like today. When I was young and single (late 90s), it was pretty easy for a moderately attractive young woman to secure commitment and to determine what the terms of the commitment might be. I think this is where some of the confusion about “proposals” comes from. Women count as a proposal every time a man indicates firm interest in marrying her, even if it does not ever reach the point of an actual proposal, because when we are young we know we can more or less control whether it reaches that point. And we assume that men mean what they say, because they almost always do.
But, a woman, even if young and pretty, should emphatically not indicate her interest in getting married by broadcasting that fact. She can be clear about it when asked, but an attractive woman who appears desperate will send up red flags among men, who will reasonably ask themselves what is wrong with her that she has to be so forward. Also, men are quite suspicious if they suspect a woman has an ulterior motive, e.g., wanting to get married/secure her financial future/have babies rather than wanting him in particular. So it is not quite as easy and straightforward as it might appear. Yes, young, pretty women have it relatively easy, but they are frequently not sophisticated enough to know how to play the game.
Marissa,
Let me clarify.
The Breach of Promise to Marry was a law that individual states created for themselves because their local state legislators were concerned for the welfare of the girls who were letting their boyfriends take their virginity from them before marrying them. The belief here was (at the turn of the 20th century when “dating” was born) that if she isn’t a virgin, she can’t get married. The husband insisted that HE break her Hymen. And if he couldn’t he didn’t want her (she had no marital value in his eyes.) That was thereason for the law, that a woman could be ruined.
The diamond engagement ring REPLACED the Breach of Promise to Marry law. It became a form of “virginity insurance” (in the 1930s and 1940s.) You give her a diamond. She accepts it. You are now “engaged.” She gives you her virginity. You bolt because you got to break her hymen which is all you wanted. She can no longer get married. But she has a diamond she can sell for money to compensate her lost marital value (her ruptured hymen.)
Basically, for the sexual perverts who only want to f-ck what no man has f-cked before, it is a very-VERY expensive form of prostitution.
Harsh ain’t it? Sometimes history is brutal and harsh.
Aquinas Dad
How old were your boys when you sent them to ball room dance class? That would be chick crack.
What you subsidize you get more of, basic economics. These suits and rings are slut-subsidies (also harsh, yes). Just as divorce cash and prizes are a subsidy. No one deserves a payoff for making poor decisions. The state is a poor stand-in for families and communities and often distorts social issues in worse ways by trying to fix them. In this case, fathers are discouraged from being as watchful over their daughters chastity because the state will step in to act as a temporary husband. People don’t experience the stings of failure and learn from them if they are insulated from their mistakes.
IBB,
“Pretty much agree with all of that. I don’t know where you could have gotten the idea that girls stop maturing at age 15 though. That just baffles me.”
I used age 15 as a minimum (“puberty or age 15, whichever is later”), because that was the average age at which girls used to complete puberty. I did not want to use only puberty, because the average age has been moving significantly toward the earlier side.
By “maturity” I mean the basis and capacity of women for making decisions and judgements, with the specifics varying from woman to woman, as does everything else.
The actual decisions and judgements that are made depend also on data that has been acquired and experiences that have been internalized, but this effect is different from the basis (which includes her character) and capacity (which includes her intellect).
And a woman’s emotional foundation seems to be set well before puberty. She may learn to hide or modulate certain aspects, but they are still there influencing her, and when external controls break down, she again reveals the ten year old that has been hiding in an adult body.
Many people who assert that young women in their teens are not mature enough to marry do not distinguish between maturity as fully formed capabilities, and maturity as the effects of experiences.
Women in their twenties are no more mature than women in their teens, by the first definition, but many women in their twenties have been physically and spiritually defeated by burdens that they were never designed to carry, by the second definition.
“Girls like Ashley who are in their prime”
I googled her and she looks well into her thirties. The SAHDaughters movement is a convenient cover for the following:
1. Lazy young women who do not want to grow up, get a job and take responsibility for their own lives
2. Unattractive young women who receive no interest from men
3. Minority women (like Jasmin Baucham) in a cult that is 99.9% white and where interracial marriages are neither seen nor encouraged
4. Women who simply do not want to get married and have kids but cannot come out and say so because their cult opposes independent feminists
And 5). Fathers like Geoffrey Botkin who enjoy the company of their daughters so immensely, as well as the financial profit that they contribute to the collective family bank account.
I forgot that one.
“I would like to address several of these points based on my wife’s and my relationship. She is from a very traditional and religious Catholic community in the south of the Philippines. There is no divorce in the Philippines and the divorce rate for American men marrying Filipinas is about 20% instead of the ~50% for American to American unions.”
20% is astronomically high from the perspective of a traditional Filipino family. While it may be low for us, this is one of the reasons we have such a hard time winning over the tradtional parents and grandparents of the foreigners we seek to marry abroad.
“Exactly who will a 60-year-old widow marry? Maybe some gamma? ”
A 65 to 70-ish year old man. You see it in areas with a lot of retirees. Even when they don’t officially marry they often have long term committed relationships until one of them dies.
It’s so simple.
If you’re not an obese and under 30 woman, simply give goo goo eyes, playing with hair, laugh at the jokes of the betas that you think you find some redeeming qualities in. Also called instinctive normal flirting behavior. Pick one of these betas, go out enough and then get proposal.
Now what’s the keyword in that paragraph of why this doesn’t go down like that in real life?
As usual, Deti is speaking the complete truth and as usual everybody comes out with all these reasons and hypotheticals of why it’s hard and it doesn’t work like that. All those reasons are simply excuses designed to provide plausible deniability for their real wants and desires and you know it.
Let me sum it up:
Finding and getting commitment from men with alpha traits is ultra hard especially for entitled devoted Christian women who usual pale in physical looks compared to the secular sisters but use God as Genie to hope that if they wait long enough the SMP will reverse it’s rules just for them.
On the macro, here is the solution. Give beta men back there power which was holding the financial resources and jobs. As long as women can provide as well or better in their early years, this problem will never ever go away. Women do not want betas. Full stop. The only thing they had was financial dominance and that is gone. And yes I am aware under the current laws and political environment this will not happen any time soon.
You all can scoff and snicker, but in the days before a DNA test, how would you expect a brother to know that the kids he was raising up were his?
The hymen was the only way back then, to know that the bride wasn’t a ho, who had pulled a train of 50 dudes the night before the wedding. In this regard, a man could be reasonably sure that the kid that pops out 9 months after wedding night is his own, and thus to be sure he is passing on his genetic line, and not that of the bouncer at the local bar.
Of course, being realists, we’ll all concede that this is imperfect, but it’s all they had back then.
Boxer
@JSB,
In a similar situation with Engineering Diva. But… looking back….
1. We are going very slowly. We both have been frivorced and we have had to sort out our kids, which has taken years. And we have both been single — no partners — for years and years.
2. She’s about two decades older than you, and I’m seven years older than that. I am familiar with her culture: lived half my adult life within that mileau.
3. She is not European. She has seen socailed progressivism & corruption up close and personal, and does not like it one little bit.
4. There is a status differentiation — in both societies — between our jobs.
5. She can keep home, dress, cook, run a business… in short she has feminine chops.
And it took ages to find her. Most women I know are jealous of status, or want to go too fast (been there. I get oneitis bad. I may be horny, but I’m not stupid). or have had a series of boyfriends they babymammaed off — progenating or not, or have a greater BMI that I do (with none of it being bone or muscle) or have periods of being batshit crazy — or, for ethical reasons, are on the “do not date ‘cos she is like your sister” list.
So, young lady, pray about your man and consider the following.
a. Getting a trust system set up and discussing jobs, prospects and goals for the next 10 to 20 years, for raising kids takes that long.
b. Indicate you want kids and will not be using contraception (unless you have medical problems that require it).
c. Pray and get your friends to pray.
d. Then get engaged, organize a wedding within a few weeks (sew your dress if needs be) — assuming that you are burning for him, and if you are not then you should not have got engaged — and put your resources into being married.
And cut your blogging and facebook time down… There are more important things to do. Which I will draw a delicate curtain around 🙂
@IBB. Yr daughters have a handicap when it comes to my sons, and that is the laws around families within the US. As an aside, the daughters living at home need to be actively encouraged to court — and leave home. Dancing helps for one area, and mucking out the barn for the other.
@IBB
Not trying to be a jerk. (Which is net-speak for, I’m probably being a jerk.)
Do you feel that you have raised your daughters in such a way that you have taught them that they should never put themselves in the position of needing or depending on a man, other than you? Meaning, they should be prepared to go it alone if need be? To be strong and independent?
If so, do you feel this has engendered an attitude in them that men (other than you) are generally unreliable, not to be trusted or that one should always have a backup plan in place?
If so, do you think that this attitude comes across to the men they meet?
Up above you made a statement to AD that his son (or guys like him) are scared of an educated woman, etc. But let me throw this out there, I don’t think that’s the case. I think it’s the vibe these women send out (not necessarily your daughter/s, and of course NAWALT – lulz.) of “I don’t need a man!” that is a turn off to a man. And it’s not because the guy is weak or insecure or hates an educated woman.
Give you a small data point from my life:
Was chit chatting with a woman I met in the cesspool known as online dating. During the course of the conversation she says that “I think a lot of guys are intimated to reach out to me because of my PhD.” I thought to myself, ‘Oh, I didn’t even read that part of her profile.’ I just thought that she had a nice rack, was literate and seemed 92% normal. She was still pleasant, because she most certainly did not give off the vibe of “I don’t need a man!” Very feminine woman. Very warm. Very sexy. (Despite her PhD – I kid – sorta.)
When I do encounter a woman who proudly trumpets that or gives off that “I don’t need a man” vibe, my gut sends me a signal about her: she comes across as kind of masculine and cold in her interactions to the world.
Like a woman raised as a pseudo-son or something, or aping the male method of interfacing with the world. I just don’t find it attractive personally. It also raises my inner hackles and sends me a warning – ‘pump and dump’ material only.
It has nothing to do with her college degree or anything or the sort. I’m talking about the inflated ego, grrrl power!, you go grrrl!, anything the boys can do I can do better! Who needs a man!! attitude. That sometimes, not always goes along with college educated women (particularly sorority sisters in my personal experience – also known as stripper school) raised by single moms, or dads who wished they had also had a son. Especially if the daughter is an only child, or the husband’s relationship with the wife is terrible so the daughter gets pressed into the role of daddy’s girl / pseudo girlfriend so that he can have some kind emotional contact with the feminine. But hey, that’s my Interwebz pet theory.
Well anyway,
I’ll tell you about my ex. Very briefly:
1. Married her while in college.
2. I went to work. She stayed home to take care of the kid(s).
3. We had a kid. Then another.
4. For years her mom was up in her grill about finishing her degree. It’s important to have a backup plan if you marriage doesn’t work out. (This was said verbatim – in front of me no less. – Bitch. Her mom was huge feminist. Red flag I missed. Go blue pill me!)
5. Her mom always meddled, interfered, etc. Mom dearest tried to pay for her school. I would not let her. Even that caused a huge uproar and crap storm. That I would dare to pay for my wife’s education or defy her mom. Lol.
6. Wifey poo goes back to school on my dime. I wind up basically with twice as much stuff to do while working an executive level job and being the good supportive hubby that takes on all this stuff so she can achieve her “dream.”
7. While doing this starts sleeping around. Which I find out about in point 8 below.
8. Right as she’s about to graduate, and when according to her mom and feminist dogma – she no longer needed a man, she announces this whole plot to leave me and take the kids. Of course, she did need man, as she was screwing other ones besides me! Yay! Grrrl power!
9. Her new boyfriend dumps her ass when the heat gets too much. [After all, she was just pump and dump material – duh – who wants to be with a whore?]
10. I divorced her. Now she damn well needs that degree, and the job she never had to have when we were married. And oh yeah, she ain’t got no man. Ain’t got no kids with her or a house to live in either. Go red pill me!
Ta-da!
TL:DR version – beeyotches be crazy. I got 99 problems.
And by trust system I don’t mean his internet passwords. I mean a family trust, for the kids, that protects the home and hearth. Locally, the way to defend against lawyers is the home and hearth are in a family trust and (if you run a business) you set up an business entity that is then owned by the trust. Keeps the lawyers from the door — because you have barbed wire barriers in the way.
Attached to that is church, family decisions (like home schooling) and work (which will change as your circumstances change). Most men who are ready to marry will want to set these things up… they are committing to trust you, but trusting the government or lawyers is sheer idiocy.
As a man who spent 17-27 balls deep in Christianity and ministry I’m going to settle this once and for all:
There wasn’t a single attractive and devout woman I met during my involvement in ministry that wasn’t:
Married
Engaged
Or in a serious LTR headed toward marriage
I would meet a cool and attractive woman who was sincere about her faith, and the above rang true every time.
I have a few great friends who are rather plain looking. However, they are exceptional women. Feminine, modest, pleasant to be around, productive, and ideal wife material in every other way. Two of the four are recently married. Their husbands are humble, productive betas (professor, doctor).
Let’s make no mistake here, it’s a wasteland for young men in the church. Many of them are more than willing to marry, especially the ones who are sincere about Jesus. I would’ve killed to marry a few years ago. Unfortunately I ran into the issue above, or women who were just flat out not interested (or the pretty girl who decided to turn me down in favor of the recently converted drug addict.. Yeah so much for women wanting a good Christian man…)
Can we all just ignore IBB now?
There’s a question from 12 Monkeys the committee asks Bruce Willis’s character, ‘Are you addicted to that dying world?’ It can be asked of quite a few Americans.
Re: DNA testing
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/fourth-wave-feminism-rebel-women?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
Have you guys seen this ? Its like the apocalypse, dosn’t seem like there is anything like even a dent in feminism’s movement, its more powerful and lying and demonic as ever and I just don’t think it will be stopped until everything is finished.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/12/11/all-girls-schools-may-be-more-orderly-but-theyre-no-place-for-a-tomboy-canadian-study-finds/
All-girls schools may be more orderly, but they are also bastions of strict conformity in which non-feminine behaviour is ruthlessly stamped out, according to a Concordia University study that may have implications in the ongoing push for single-sex education in Canadian schools.
In the words of lead researcher Kate Drury, a classroom filled exclusively with girls leads to “more pressure to behave ‘like a girl.’”
The finding runs in sharp contract to the popular notion — much-espoused by single-sex education boosters — that all-girls schools are stereotype-free zones pumping out high numbers of women scientists, engineers and woodworkers.
“They’re probably giving boys too much credit,” said Concordia psychology professor William Bukowski, the study’s co-author. “What this paper is telling us is that it’s girls who enforce the female sex role.”
Married women are on the carousel.
>> 20% is astronomically high from the perspective of a traditional Filipino family.
No, it’s the new normal.
you read stories about the Philippines.
I live and do business in Mindano .
Whose evaluation of the situation should we trust?
“Also, seriously, what is the problem with going to college after the children are grown? Why not online education? In this day and age, traditional college is nearly passe.”
I agree that traditional college is nearly passe but don’t quite understand the point of entering college for the first time in middle age.
@Jzb, “There wasn’t a single attractive and devout woman I met during my involvement in ministry….I have a few great friends who are rather plain looking. However, they are exceptional women. Feminine, modest, pleasant to be around, productive, and ideal wife material in every other way. Two of the four are recently married. Their husbands are humble, productive betas (professor, doctor). ”
So then two are available. Why not date one of them?
@Hipster, ” But teaching the 21 year olds about better music than Miley Cyrus is half the fun. Teaching them other things they didn’t know is also a big part of the thrill.”
Generation 21 grew up on hardcore fetish porn since the age of about 8. There’s nothing us older folks can teach them. We can only be shocked.
Well, well, well. Look what we have here:
http://www.returnofkings.com/22566/the-most-abominable-christian-wife-on-the-internet?ModPagespeed=noscript
Nicely written, accurate, concise summary with the obvious conclusions:
(bold in the original text)
…even conservative Christian men in monogamous marriages need game nowadays.
Puzzled
No.
Okay. Well I just call it fear. It absolutely IS insecurity. That is the word. I’m not saying that the fear isn’t warranted. Most of us have been burned (to some degree or another) by a woman. I was fortunately enough to bless that one out before I said “I do.” I got out cheap. For others (like yourself) it cost you everything. So there is good reason to BE afraid. You of all people know that.
But I still call it fear.
She is just trying to set the balance in the relationship with you. What she is telling you is that your place (with her) will be subordinate. SHE has the power. SHE doesn’t need you. If YOU want to be with HER it will be on HER TERMS because OBVIOUSLY you need her. That to her is balance. You know your place, the submissive.
Some might call this a variant of sh-t testing. I just call it bullsh-t. If you hear a woman say this, run. I did.
That is terrible.
I am so very sorry Puzzled, for all of it.
-IBB
@IBB
Hmm, maybe she was testing. I dunno, I thought she was trying to toot her own horn a bit. Some women think guys are impressed by that stuff. I’m neutral on it. I do believe education is a net positive but a specific level of degree or field has never really been a big factor to me, though I’m starting to get partial to nurses.
Maybe some guys are more interested in her degree or career, but I’ve never really had a buddy come to me and say “Hey I met this woman on Saturday. She’s a dentist! Jackpot!” Followed by giddy laughter and squeals. Usually goes ” I met this blond chick Saturday.” “Yeah? She hot?” “Oh yeah.” High five. Maybe later on someone will ask “What’s she do?” “I dunno works in marketing or something…”
I think most guys are looking for a cute (to him), agreeable, compatible wife and baby momma, not a provider or business partner. If a guy was looking for a female provider, we’d all probably say that guy was scum, or genius depending on perspective I suppose. Not to say most guys would want an ignorant, dumb, or lazy woman to mother their children.
On marriage past…
Yeah it was not a fun experience but on the whole, looking back, I would rather have known enough to select a better bride at the start, my bad. But given that I didn’t know enough, or willfully ignored warning signs and I created that situation for my future self, I’m glad I got it over with and all the cookies crumbled. Can you imagine being 70 and then finding out all this horrible stuff your wife did 40 years ago? Ugh. I got out in time to still recover and have a life. A different life than what I hoped but it’s a pretty good life.
I appreciate your sympathy. I did it to myself though so I own it. I put it out there from time to time so maybe someone else can learn from my mistakes and avoid them. 🙂
@MarcusD
Where abouts in Canada are you? Toronto here.Here is a good article for you that a friend of mine in Vancouver sent me.
http://lawdiva.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/divorcee-alert-there-are-no-single-men-in-vancouver/
@IBB
I believe I posted this on another thread.It is a great article pertinent to this thread.The best part is the comments.They get really good about halfway down the page.This would also go great on your Blog….
http://modernreject.com/2011/03/the-single-christian-woman-blessed-or-doomed/
I know that we often talk in generalities here but I want to acknowledge how much this correlates to real life. I see this because I work with so many early 20s-late 30s females. I see this spectrum daily and it seems like it’s only getting worse.
I can think of five off the top of my head in the 23-28 age range who are attractive but don’t date. Guys just don’t seem interested. Nothing wrong with their personalities or looks—guys are just checking out. These girls aren’t sluts either. Believe me, the sluts talk. There is a surplus of attractive young women out there that would make decent wives.
One coworker of mine is 29 and massively freaking out about turning 30 in March. She always asks people “how old do you think I am?”. She dated a guy from 16-25 and he didn’t want to get married. Now she’s trying to find a YOUNGER guy because guys in their 30s are just too old for her.
Then there is the late 30 crowd who are divorced and live at work or decided to pursue an MBA to go into management.
If your a good guy who wants to get married you really have to hone your instincts to watch out for these used up skank’s. Especially after Greed turns to Fear.
I just learned that a women over 30 (32) whom I formed an iron clad positive opinion of over these past months as an exception to the rule – was in fact a slut back in the day; pounded by one cock after the next.
If you asked me yesterday to put my money where my mouth was and sign off on this women’s good character based soley on my feelings, I probably would have. And I would have been dead wrong.
Feelings can be a powerful thing. Women are very skilled at projecting the images they want you to form of them at you (when they want to). It’s really frightening that sometimes, no matter how good a judge of character you might be you can be totally wrong.
I feel sorry for an innocent man that ends up with a used skank like this. That’s right. A used skank.
A used worthless 32 year old skank. A litany of guys had women like her when they were young and hot; in their physical primes exercising every option at her disposal – except you.
And NOW they want marriage.
Fear is a women’s fuel after 29. It’s not a detriment to them. It’s motivation for them. They are fully aware of what’s going on. They know exactly what they need to do and what image they have to project.
It’s a frightening prospect for any older single successful good guy hoping for a good wife.
@ Taco Master
“There is a surplus of attractive young women out there that would make decent wives”
Where are these women you speak of? Do they work with you at the Taco Bell Drive through?
So she gave one guy the tightest, most fertile years of her life, and took a decade to realize he wasn’t going to make an honest woman of her. Now she’s ruling out all the guys (everyone older than her) who might actually be interested in her.
And this is an example of “guys just checking out”? How can you tell, when she won’t even look at the guys who might take her? If she’s at all attractive, I bet there are at least a few 35- to 40-year-old guys who have expressed an interest in her and been shot down, resulting in this member of the “surplus of attractive young” [or not so young anymore] women. Poor thing.
@C4C
I haven’t dated any of them because I’m just not attracted to them, not even a little bit. They’re not ugly to me, but there is zero physical attraction there.
The second point is that I’m no longer interested in being a devout overly zealous evangelical Christian. In fact I’m completely disgusted by the notion of being involved in a church at any capacity at this point in my life. This is all apart of my red pill awakening/processing. So I’m not really sure I ever have a chance with Christian women right now as I’m trying to figure out if I want to be a Christian.
I also meant to say that all of the a attractive/sincere Christian girls I had met during my time in ministry were taken – not that there weren’t any pretty women.
The white knight rationalization of women on this thread is mind boggling.
Re: Bee
„One example is Haley’s Halo. She started blogging to let guys know she was available for marriage – she is still single. How long has she been blogging?…What would you recommend these girls do? Where should they look? (I am sure they have already tried home school conventions.) Their blogging is a form of putting themselves out there. Aunt Haley is putting herself out there. What else should she do?”
If you want to see just how absurd this logic is, consider a theoretical parallel. Consider a young Christian male blogger who signals online his willingness to marry a similarly young, chaste, serious etc Christian woman, and then complains about the lack of responses he’s getting even though, in his words, he’s putting himself out there. Women and white knights would ridicule and attack him with unbridled viciousness.
I know nothing about her, but just glanced at her site. First of all, if she’s serious about attracting a man through her blogging, she should put up a picture of herself. She claims to be writing for the manosphere, so she should know the basic fact that men are visual and a picture is worth many, many words to us. If she thinks she’s so fat or hideous that a picture would work against her, she needs to get to work on fixing that as much as possible. Otherwise, any guy who does approach her sight-unseen is going to be disappointed after building up his hopes about what she might look like.
Second, if she’s blogging to get a man (I’ll take your word for that; her About page just says she blogs about singleness), she needs to work harder at it. If that’s your blog’s purpose, and you don’t post for months at a time, you don’t look like it’s very important to you. When she doesn’t blog for a few months, does that mean she’s found someone, or given up, or what? Especially when there’s no picture, she should be blogging daily to give guys a feel for what her personality is like, at least.
By the way, I’ll bet you ten bucks that, even without a picture, she has gotten serious offers of dates from men claiming to fit her profile. Whether she’s acted on them or how, I have no idea. But there are enough desperate, lonely guys out there that any woman with a pulse who declares herself single is going to get some offers — not necessarily from the quality of man she wants, but offers nonetheless.
@Tacomaster2
That chick who was with the guy from 16-25, you can consider that her first divorce. Mentally and emotionally it is. I’m going to go out on a limb here and posit that she lost her virginity to him too. Any new guy that comes along will have a huge mountain to climb to ever supplant that first dude in her idealized memory of him. Whatchu gonna do?
@ Jzb:
“I’m no longer interested in being a devout overly zealous evangelical Christian.
“I’m trying to figure out if I want to be a Christian.”
This might sound trite, but what you’re really doing is walking away from, and being led out of, Churchianity. That doesn’t mean you have to give up on Christ.
@Cail Corishev and others
About Haley’s Halo…
She has mentioned the 400+ bullet point must have list. Quoted
earlier in this thread.
And
The first thing that I see on her blog is “Giving the manosphere a friendly Christian sidehug since 2010.”
Now that she has friendzoned all the men of the manosphere what men does she have left to choose from?
Alphas? Nope the very definition of alpha includes that alphas have choices. So an alpha will not put his neck in the snare of marriage to her.
Blue pill, “Fireproofed” beta church men? Nope that wont work either because these men cannot spark attraction in her.
Grey Ghost: 15 and 13
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10511139/Book-on-submissive-wives-becomes-hit-in-Spain.html
Looking at the image heading the Telegraph article, I find myself pondering various mythical creatures:
the gorgon, for example, or the basilisk, perhaps the dragon…
I suppose that if a man had been present at that mob scene and calmly pointed out to the female entities in question, “No worries, this book is not intended for the likes of you anyway – it’s for pretty women who want to truly be happy” there might have been some sort of reaction…
@Aquinas Dad, I enjoy your stories you share especially the Anna story posted from yesterday. It gives a real life perspective. Now when I meet late 20 to late 30 year old women who aren’t married, I now wonder how many men they’ve left in their wake, how many they’ve turned down for frivolous reasons (i.e, baldness).
@Michael.
“Where are these women you speak of? Do they work with you at the Taco Bell Drive through?”
Lol um no. I’m a nurse so I’m constantly around women. Maybe I should get a part time job at Taco Bell for the discount…
@PuzzledTraveller,
“That chick who was with the guy from 16-25, you can consider that her first divorce. Mentally and emotionally it is. I’m going to go out on a limb here and posit that she lost her virginity to him too”
—Yes, this is exactly how she describes it; a divorce. She’s always wanting to complain about turning 30 without being married, not having children, and seeing her friends getting married and her being one of the last unmarried people in her social group. She’s of Vietnamese descent so she has a big cultural push from her family to get married and procreate. According to her family, she’s the “black sheep” because of it.
@Cail
“So she gave one guy the tightest, most fertile years of her life, and took a decade to realize he wasn’t going to make an honest woman of her. Now she’s ruling out all the guys (everyone older than her) who might actually be interested in her.
And this is an example of “guys just checking out”? How can you tell, when she won’t even look at the guys who might take her? If she’s at all attractive, I bet there are at least a few 35- to 40-year-old guys who have expressed an interest in her and been shot down, resulting in this member of the “surplus of attractive young” [or not so young anymore] women. Poor thing.”
I was typing on my IPhone and at work so my posting was a little confusing when I just reread it. I meant to say I know plenty of young nurses who are not getting any attention, girls who are attractive and in the 22-26 age range. I think that demographic shows guys are checking out. They don’t get asked out on dates or anything. I don’t think any of those nurses are concerned about this. I think they are purposefully blocking out the impending turmoil they may encounter being single and over 30. They think time is on their side which it is not. If they were wise they would look at the next older group of women we work with and see what their life is like.
I was trying to show a correlation with the Vietnamese nurse who is about to turn 30 and is basically having a 5 month panic attack. When she complains I just listen or walk away to take care of my patients (get tired of hearing it). On one or two occasions I’ve suggested a 36-42 year old guy would be good for her and her response is that they are too old for her and not fun to be around. I’m just curious how this will turn out. Most likely she’ll stay single or coerce a young beta to take care of her in her last three years of fertility.
Women who make more money than their spouses (this includes same gender, but mostly men of course) are significantly more likely to report relationship unhappiness and to file for divorce. The uptick really starts at about 40%, but it is safe to say that whenever a woman is making more than 50% of the couple’s income then she has to watch her behavior much more carefully. Because women not-in-love will naturally be contemptuous of a man in-love, the previous (now dead and gone) culture’s socioeconomic design kept her humbled by her objective need for her husband. But now, she will remain out of love, and if she isn’t conscientiously biting her tongue, her “usual” (lol at myself) internal controls, based on her objective needs, which ought to have modulated her controlling and contemptuous behaviors, will no longer be effective in her. And she will blame him for her behavior, automatically, even if she consciously knows it’s not his fault.
tacomaster2 (version 2.0 of the previous tacomaster?)
I meant to say I know plenty of young nurses who are not getting any attention, girls who are attractive and in the 22-26 age range. I think that demographic shows guys are checking out. They don’t get asked out on dates or anything.
That doesn’t indicate “guys are checking out”, though. It does indicate that the nurses in question are not actually serious about finding a man to commit to, because actions speak louder than words. Talking about “finding a guy” while doing nothing about it, which to believe, eh?
Going by what you write, it isn’t that men have checked out, it’s that they do not see any benefit in asking those particular women to go with them.
With regard to the nearly-30 Viet woman, it would be interesting to see who broke off the relationship, and where she was in her nursing school track when it occurred. It is possible that she made a choice at the age of 25 – career, and the wider world, vs. “that guy”, and now she regrets it. Likely she still envisions herself as that 25 year old woman, hence the 35 and up men are “too old” because of the imagined 10+ year age difference. Except she’s actually 29…oops.
jf12 there is much in what you say that looks correct, but if you have any kind of a cite to support those numbers it would be useful to see it.
@tacomaster
Re: surplus of women. Yes, there is objectively a large and growing surplus of aging young women who erroneously believe themselves now ready for a long-term relationship with a good guy. But, they haven’t (yet) incorporated the fact of their surplusage into their behavior.
Women don’t go out on dates anymore because they either flake out because a beta asked them or they would prefer to “hang out” with an alpha for 5 minutes. Plus you get stories of women only going on dates if they get a free meal or free entertainment…and could care less about the guy providing that stuff.
It’s probably smart for guys to check out. What would be the point of dating if women don’t give any incintive to it?
@Anon Reader
Clicking on that link was jarring. Good description of the crowd. The contrast between the women tearing up copies of the cover and the woman on the cover pretty much says it all.
Woody Allen’s line in Sleeper about a creature with the body of a crab and the head of a social worker comes to mind.
@AR, links here, cites to follow separately (still feeling my way here as to what goes through)
“aversion to the wife earning more than the husband -impacts marriage formation, the wife’s labor force participation, the wife’s income conditional on working, marriage satisfaction, likelihood of divorce, and the division of home production. The distribution of the share of household income earned by the wife exhibits a discontinuity at ½, suggesting that some couples try to avoid the circumstance where the wife’s income exceeds the husband’s income.”
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/emir.kamenica/documents/identity.pdf
“Unemployment can spell divorce for men, but not for women.”
http://www.livescience.com/14705-husbands-employment-threatens-marriage.html
@tm2: If your sample consists of young (22-26 y.o.) nurses, keep in mind what a marriage minded man is going to see: a woman that’s had college time (likely to be a past or current carousel rider) and is devoted to a career (family is likely to be a secondary concern).
This is not necessarily the case, of course (NANALT). But the time a man spends trying to determine whether it’s true is time that could be spent pursuing women that don’t require this determination.
In general, the nurses are looking for someone that 1. isn’t concerned about her past, 2. is marriage minded, and 3. is still attractive to her.
Pick any two.
jf12, thanks for the quick reply. Anecdotally from just paying attention to people around me, I have evidence that “women earns more” is destabilizing to a marriage or LTR but when arguing that point with the so-called “reality based community” it is always useful to have a study, even a flawed one, to buttress the point. I’ll have to read them to have any useful comment.
Lurkers should note that “women earns more” is not necessarily fatal to a relationship, but it does mean both parties will have to actively work harder at it. They can’t just put things on autopilot and expect it all to work out, because hypergamy is not a conscious activity, just for a start.
@AR, cites plus more.
Bertrand M, Pan J, Kamenica E. 2013. Gender Identity and Relative Income within Households. NBER Working Paper No. 19023. National Bureau of Economic Research, Cambridge, MA.
Sayer L, England P, Allison P, Kangas N. 2011. She left, he left: how employment and satisfaction affect women’s and men’s decisions to leave marriages. American Journal of Sociology, 116(6):1982-2018.
All studies have always found the same destabilizing effect of women’s economic power in relationships. Always. However, despite all evidence to the contrary, social theorists fervently wish to believe in a egalitarian Utopia namely Sweden, e.g.
Lynn Prince Cooke, Jani Erola, Marie Evertsson, Michael Gähler, Juho Härkönen, Belinda Hewitt, Marika Jalovaara, Man-Yee Kan, Torkild Hovde Lyngstad, Letizia Mencarini, Jean-Francois Mignot, Dimitri Mortelmans, Anne-Rigt Poortman, Christian Schmitt, and Heike Trappe. 2013. Labor and love: wives’ employment and divorce risk in its socio-political context. Social Politics, (online first, 28 pages) doi: 10.1093/sp/jxt016.
Despite their fervent wishes, there is no Sweden effect.
Liu, G. and A. Vikat. 2004. Does divorce risk depend on spouses’ relative income? A register-
based study of first marriages in Sweden in 1981-1998. MPIDR Working Paper No. 2004-010.
Max-Planck Institute for Demographic Research, Rostock, Germany.
jf12, excellent. I wonder if Just4Guys have seen any of this?
Argh, should be justfourguys, definitely.
On the checking out; what I see is men in the 18-26 range no longer up for raiding college towns with me. These are fit young men who use guns and jump out of planes for a living. Not the most risk adverse young men around
More for me though so you take the good with the bad
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CP,
Excellent. Outstanding! You can apply this triangle limitation methodology to database design and software development as well.
Fast. Cheap. Stable.
Pick any two.
UNACCEPTABLE screams the CIO! I want ALL 3 and if I don’t get ALL 3 I’ll fire everyone! I’ve walked off jobs when CIOs have said this, because their statement runs contrary to reality, only to have my cell phone ring a few hours later with a very humble CIO apologizing to me for screaming at me because I undermined his authority to manage his department be defining reality (or some such horsesh-t) and please just come back to work because they can’t do anything. The couple times I didn’t immediately go back, I got calls a few days later with offers that included more money. Its nice to have “power.”
Your nurses algorythm that you have defined makes a lot of sense. They can’t have it all, they just can’t. If she wants a man that is marriage minded and is very good looking to her, then there is no way it will work if he is concerned abotu her sexual past. If she wants someone who is marriage minded and not at all concerned about her past, he’s going to be ugly to her. If she wont settle for anyone unless they gorgeous and they aren’t prying into her past, he’s not going to want to marry her. What a conundrum? But it is reality.
“Now that she has friendzoned all the men of the manosphere what men does she have left to choose from?”
This corner of the blogosphere is really small so she has practically the entire world of men to choose from. Besides, people are better off meeting someone in real life through their social circles. I always advise people to get on meetup.com which is not a dating portal but a great place to find out what’s going on in your zip code location. Whatever your interests, you are sure to find groups who are doing the same things in your city or nearby through the Meet Up site.
@innocentbystanderboston
There is no conundrum, there is only glory. We are all set to reap what we have sewn. Praise GOD for our upcoming tribulations, we can only hope it gets much worse.
When starving former beauty queens throw themselves at dirt covered, rag wearing men with only the hope of a meal, and the men say no and stroll off forlornly, then we will have justice.
When the cries of hungry bastard children ring out through the cold night, then feminism will have its just deserts. When the former “alpha” males find out that colt made men equal, when gang bangers, the hard core thugs that they are, find out that the police are what is keeping them alive, and when sassy, moxie filled, intelligent, empowered women, find out just how “equal” they are…
Bring a joyous tear to the eye
@Ed Nines,
“The first thing that I see on her blog is “Giving the manosphere a friendly Christian sidehug since 2010.””
Sidehug is a joke. It shows she has a sense of humor and shows she has perspective on Christian culture.
A sense of humor is a plus.
@AR, thx for the J4G suggestion. I looked at some recent articles on their site, and I liked the one Be The Man In Your Marriage. It took me two full years to screw up (loaded phrase) the courage to go Dread last spring, and it worked, but I was only able to do so after falling out of love. My hypothesis is that men in love are automatically beta, and I have become convinced there is no escape from it.
Tacomaster,
That’s the thing: I just don’t believe that attractive, 22- to 26-year-old nurses are not getting asked out, unless they’re doing something to keep the men at arm’s length. Good grief, a pretty 24-year-old nurse is the Holy Grail! If she came to my church next Sunday, a couple of the married women would befriend her, and as soon as they found out she was single, they’d make sure she knew about all the single men in the parish between the ages of 20 and 50, and point them out to her if they were there. If she showed the slightest interest in any of them, they’d arrange an introduction. She could also walk down the street or through the mall, and men would find an excuse to approach her.
I don’t doubt that some men have checked out, but we’re not talking about marginal girls here; we’re talking about the cream of the crop. There are still enough men on the prowl that a svelte, 24-year-old nurse is not going to be ignored. If she doesn’t appear to be getting any attention, she’s doing something to keep men away. It may not be obvious to a disinterested observer what that is, but it’s something, just like your 29-year-old friend is still doing by blowing off all the men in her realistic age range. Most likely, to judge by the girls I knew when I was that age, the hot young nurse is getting approached, but she shoots them down quickly with excuses about how she’s not looking for anything serious right now, and doesn’t count them as real offers because she didn’t want them. She probably also stays busy socially having fun with her gal-pals, which keeps the approaches down because most men won’t try to break through the group.
@Aquinas Dad,
Thanks for sharing your story about Anna. Amazing.
Looks like college & career are allowing many women to procrastinate and/or shirk their fundamental duties.
Consider a young Christian male blogger who signals online his willingness to marry a similarly young, chaste, serious etc Christian woman
The viciousness, I think, is piled on when the word “chaste” shows up. It’s difficult to summarize the reaction that it engenders, but it seems to be one of those prickings of a guilty conscience. Men who complain about a lack of female attention (vis-a-vis marriage), and advertise (brag?) about their willingness to accept any and all past behaviour generally just get sympathy. Men who complain about a lack of female attention whilst setting requirements (e.g. zero N), get ritually sacrificed. I’ve said in the past that, even if men don’t particularly care about chastity, they should still use the requirement to test reactions. Feminists become apoplectic when they aren’t given the benefit of the doubt, or given some other pass on their past behaviour.
CC to Tacomaster:
She probably also stays busy socially having fun with her gal-pals, which keeps the approaches down because most men won’t try to break through the group.
Yes, absolutely. To see this realized tangibly, observe such women at night spots, where they sit at a table or stand in a circle in the “wagon wheel” formation. And yes, it is about keeping most men away, Cail. It’s a fitness test, that derives from hypergamy as all such tests do. The women are arranging themselves as a challenge, in order to passively screen out all beta men. Only the bold and brave dare to break into that formation, and that’s what the women want – or think they want. It’s all pretty straightforward provided one actively thinks in non-feminist ways, with a pair of The Glasses taped onto the old noggin.
Probably each one of these nurses is subconsciously holding out for a doctor, or some other high prestige medical professional. Because that signals “alpha” in the medical world.
But the fact of the matter is, many, many medical professional men are betas. There are alphas – surgeons tend to be quite alpha for example – but they are probably just as (un)commmon as in the larger population. These mid-20’s women are playing the lottery, to be blunt, expecting to get a winning ticket. They likely rationalize the failure of the 29 year old nurse via the usual method, “Well, that won’t happen to me“. And perhaps for, oh, one (1) of them that’s true. The rest will wind up either settling for less alpha than desired, or no alpha at all.
They aren’t actually analyzing the situation and forming a plan, they are reacting to the social milieu around them and fitting into it. Cue TFH about women and “cause and effect”.
jf12, you are certainly welcome. justfourguys is a very interesting site, and while one may or may not agree with any given writer, the ideas are still provactive. Some of the men there should be familiar; I see that Deti has a piece up there now posted courtesy of Obsidian, for example.
Re: women earning more. I’ve read much about that subject, and I love how it’s always spun as the man being insecure, whereas it’s actually the woman who is insecure. There are some related sources on my blog (currently, and upcoming) for those interested.
“In fact…I would venture that good men are more invisible to the female population than the other way around.”
Word. Comparing invisible women to invisible men is apples and oranges. Most women just have no idea what it is really like to be invisible. They conflate (or rather, unconsciously project) their supposed invisibility with their own blind spots for men who are often their SMV/MMV equivalents. It gets tedious to hear about all of these women not “Getting” dates, BF’s, husbands. Its comical.
@C.P.
“In general, the nurses are looking for someone that 1. isn’t concerned about her past, 2. is marriage minded, and 3. is still attractive to her.”
lol. Solid. IME, nurses are quite feral creatures. Travel nurses especially. I think they are the natural opposite of navy guys or maybe airline pilots. The transient lifestyle just lends too well to the carousel, the casual flings that tend to hang on the vine for years even. But I’m still partial to nurses myself. I think that says a lot about those who incorporate nurturing aspects as part of their careers. Most truly are about giving. That really stands out these days.
I’ve dated two nurses over the past few years. I was 7 years older than one and 14 on the other (31 and 24 y/o). 31 y/o was divorced. By our third date, she wanted to have my babies. She was not shy about making this known. By today’s standards, she was rather chaste, but she was also a lost soul who would go on to change jobs multiple times, move multiple times, and subsequently plowed through several men after our relationship ended. There were geographic impediments, but ultimately I did not trust her to know what she really wanted – and demonstrate the ability to manage those things. Her phone was blowing up with dudes from all over. She liked to remain friends and really had no idea about orbiters. She was always broke and always in some kind of drama. However, she was an absolutely beautiful person inside and out. She had men on her like bees on honey. Yet she undoubtedly pleads to this day that she can’t find a man to give her those babies.
The other was 24. A travel nurse that put down roots in my city. She was of the ‘hanging out’ mindset. Was also of ‘midwestern values’. Which is internet dating for, If I like you, and if I think you are BF or husband material, my past is off limits – and we are going to take things slow. I take things slow anyhow. We dated. Soon enough she wanted to go long with me. But of course, her past came out. Had a BF from HS through college, broken engagement that led to carousel time. That was enough for me. Not interested. We remained friends and to this day she will still probe about the potential of “us”. Even though she has also moved 3-4 times, been in/out of two different grad school programs, quit nursing altogether, etc. All behaviors that would DQ pretty much any man, alpha or nay.
@Feministhater
Interesting comment from the article:
Notice no one is complaining about its companion book for men “Get married and give your life for her”
The double standards they all complain about, right?
@CC, Taco:
“I just don’t believe that attractive, 22- to 26-year-old nurses are not getting asked out, unless they’re doing something to keep the men at arm’s length.”
“If she doesn’t appear to be getting any attention, she’s doing something to keep men away.”
Yes, precisely. Only a couple of things I’d add:
Women like this get approached all the time. All. The. Time. They are masters of the bitch shield.
It could be she’s getting male attention (and lots of it); it is simply attention from men she’s not attracted to. In Female World, attention that she doesn’t want is not really “attention” from “good” men. Put another way, getting asked out by Poindexter doesn’t count as “attention”.
I don’t believe for one minute that pretty nurses in their early to mid 20s can’t get dates. I don’t buy it. I just don’t.
@ Boxer https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/fear-to-greed/#comment-101185
The older I get, the more I’m starting to veer into the conspiracy-theory idea that civilization was built upon tricking men, at a vulnerable and excitable age, into slaving away for the benefit of others. Those who evade marriage are free, in ways that their married bros can’t even comprehend..
Well, economically per Becker it makes sense for a man to get married early. Gratuitous self plug:
http://retrophoebia.wordpress.com/2013/11/24/millionaire-next-door-misses-on-marriage
So it’s not a trick– there is some considerable value for a man getting married early, and risk for a woman getting married to a young unproven man. Think options. This economic lens also largely (well, actually not, but in the absence of biology…) explains why women prefer older men. There’s a track record and indicia of true value.
MarcusD
Re: women earning more. I’ve read much about that subject, and I love how it’s always spun as the man being insecure, whereas it’s actually the woman who is insecure.
But it must be spun that way, because otherwise hypergamy enters the discussion. The female imperative does not want that discussed, or even mentioned. I’m starting to wonder if hidden fertility / ovulation in women doesn’t have profound psychological effects beyond the known preferences (more alpha during ovulation, more beta other times in the cycle) that go into the realm of keeping preferences secret.
The spin can easily be refuted by observing ordinary working people. Single men with a job are quite capable of living on not much income happily, single women are often miserable below a certain income level. It’s all about provisioning – if a woman has to provision for herself, she’s not going to be happy about it especially if there’s that man! around the house.
I don’t know if Athol has spent any major time on this or not. Someone ought to do so. Because the current economic situation is leading to more and more situations where the man is unemployed or underemployed and thus has lower take-home pay than the woman. Dealing with this should be do-able in Game terms, but just for a start he needs to be ready to deliver a tangible dose of Alpha at any time when he’s awake, in order to keep the fitness testing down to a tolerable level. And she really ought to be talking to herself regularly in order to keep her respect for him up to some level – again, to keep the fitness testing down. Then there’s the possibility of emotional affairs at work…
Laszlo
Most women just have no idea what it is really like to be invisible. They conflate (or rather, unconsciously project) their supposed invisibility with their own blind spots for men who are often their SMV/MMV equivalents.
Nora Vincent knows what it’s like to be invisible. She came close to a mental breakdown at the end of her experiment. Do a search on her book “Self-Made Man” for details.
@Anonymous Reader
Yes, Self-Made Man agrees with everything men have always said. Additionally there are the almost uniform experiences of trans-people. Female-to-males uniformly reported greatly enhanced libido and muscular strength, of course, and uniformly report their (uniformly female) partners being increasingly unruly and unsatisfied, and increasingly dismissive and contemptuous. After (nearly uniformly) being forced out of the relationship, these newly single newly men find an extremely hostile relationship environment. Uniformly. In contrast, male-to-females report greatly decreased libido which is much much much more than offset by personal satisfaction about their greatly increased opportunities and being treated better by everyone especially women.
@Marcus
Great blog. I will take some time to digest.
Re: male insecurity. Whether it’s height, or income, or any other measure, no study has shown that the males’ preferences actually matter, whereas all studies always show women insist on hypergamy. The 5’10” men are NOT turning down dates from the 6’0″ woman, but the men know enough to not even bother trying.
It’s about as believable as the idea that there could be a pot of gold sitting unguarded on a street corner day after day and no one would pick it up. The only way that happens is if everyone who tries to touch it gets electrocuted.
Thanks for reminding me: the phrase I was looking for was “bitch shield.” A girl can walk around with one in place for years, letting it keep away most men and shooting down the few who are stubborn or imperceptive enough to ignore it, and then bemoan her lack of suitors without any self-awareness at all. I’m not saying that’s the case for every attractive single woman, but I’ve seen exactly that more than once.
On the Nurses bit:
For the one that “can’t get any attention”, realize she’s probably working with doctors making 6 figures. If she’s in a bigger hospital, she’s probably interacted with Men worth Millions on several occasions. (If she works in Orthopedics, she’s probably met a good slate of Lawyers & other highly paid that blew out knees doing sports) Certain nursing fields are like cat-nip to hypergamy.
However, other ones aren’t. If she ends up working for a clinic that deals mostly with female clients, then she doesn’t see a lot of high flying Men. Plus, some fields have a lot more person to person contact, which lowers the bitch shields. Having been through some severe medical issues that put me in with doctors that normally deal with the very old or Women, I’ve seen the difference. It’s pretty stark.
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If she’s a BSN with 10+ years experience or a Nurse Practitioner, then SHE is probably making low 6 figures.
It might be a cap-nip to hypergamy, that I don’t doubt. But the nurses, they’ve already got big money
Despite what they ‘know’ from their own video, neither of them could settle for any man they could get…
I think it is telling that women detached enough to make a video like that, still can’t avoid falling into the trap themselves.
If some pretty 19 year old spread her legs for you, and you knew that she was acting and wasn’t attracted to you, and knew that she would break your heart cheating one day, and you knew that any kids you had probably wouldn’t be yours……would you still hit it anyway?
See? WE CAIN’T AVOID DE TRAPS I TELLS YA!
(This comment is meant to be taken with a healthy dose of true-but-funny gravy.)
@AR, I had issues with WordPress and my password so I redid my profile as Tacomaster2 and added an avatar. I agree that some nurses, not many but of course a select few do hold out for doctors. Nurses will not admit this especially since nursing is very adamant about maintaining a professional appearance. Nursing has lobby groups that push for movies and Hollywood to portray them as non-sexual, etc. In my city they got a sex store to remove a billboard with an image of a naughty nurse. It wasn’t anything overly crude, just a woman in white latex with a nursing cap on. A few years ago I had a coworker going through some marital problems and she started eating meals with a doctor after their shift. The management put an end to that because they wanted to keep up the professional mantra and were worried he was pressuring her to eat with him. I agree that most doctors are beta in nature. Surgeons tend to be the most alpha.
@Deti
“It could be she’s getting male attention (and lots of it); it is simply attention from men she’s not attracted to. In Female World, attention that she doesn’t want is not really “attention” from “good” men. Put another way, getting asked out by Poindexter doesn’t count as “attention”.
I don’t believe for one minute that pretty nurses in their early to mid 20s can’t get dates. I don’t buy it. I just don’t.”
I see what you’re saying. Perhaps they are putting on their best behavior at work and putting on their “bitch shields” when I’m not around them. They’re all really open with their lives so I’m going by what they tell me. As I mentioned in my previous post, they do seem to not be concerned about eventually making it to 30 single. If they were wise they would look and learn from 29 year old Vietnamese nurse. I’d say that half of the girls I work with don’t do social activities (clubbing, the bar scene, etc). Most are home bodies. I think that’s why they don’t get many dates.
@Cail
“Good grief, a pretty 24-year-old nurse is the Holy Grail! If she came to my church next Sunday, a couple of the married women would befriend her, and as soon as they found out she was single, they’d make sure she knew about all the single men in the parish between the ages of 20 and 50, and point them out to her if they were there.”
Cail, perhaps I’ve become desensitized from being around young attractive women. They’re just people like all of us. I’ve never had a problem talking to any one in any situation. I guess if I were mentoring young men in church I would tell them to work on their social day game.
@tacomaster2
Prescinding your most recent demurral of not knowing how these young women really are when you are not around them, let’s return to your “There is a surplus of attractive young women out there that would make decent wives.”
All of those women are unwived strictly by their own choice and all without excpetion have turned down many a decent man already.
“It could be she’s getting male attention (and lots of it); it is simply attention from men she’s not attracted to. In Female World, attention that she doesn’t want is not really “attention” from “good” men. Put another way, getting asked out by Poindexter doesn’t count as “attention”.
That’s ok. I wasn’t attracted to most of the women who showed me attention when I was young and single either. We all have our types or our thresholds of attraction. Nothing wrong with it.
“The viciousness, I think, is piled on when the word “chaste” shows up. It’s difficult to summarize the reaction that it engenders, but it seems to be one of those prickings of a guilty conscience. Men who complain about a lack of female attention (vis-a-vis marriage), and advertise (brag?) about their willingness to accept any and all past behaviour generally just get sympathy. Men who complain about a lack of female attention whilst setting requirements (e.g. zero N), get ritually sacrificed.”
That’s probably true, but it’s not what I was referring to. The common and unchallenged social consensus is that if a man wants to find a female companion, he basically has to make it his life’s priority and actively strive to achieve it: hit the gym, change his wardrobe, seek out single women wherever the opportunity arises, improve his social skills, learn how to order wine at a restaurant as if he was an expert on wines, take risks etc. If he simply advertises online his willingness to find a girlfriend/wife but isn’t making any other tangible sacrifice, he’s viewed as a delusional loser with a sense of entitlement. But if women do the same, the consensus is that “she’s putting herself out there”, even though it’s palpably false.
“Clicking on that link was jarring. Good description of the crowd. The contrast between the women tearing up copies of the cover and the woman on the cover pretty much says it all”
Such visual proof of decline is to be expected. Spain is a dying culture with no hope of revival. You can stick a fork in them – they’re done.
Unless by “home bodies” you literally mean they never leave the house, then no. Do they go to church, to the grocery store, to work, to the library? Then they run into men who are attracted to them. Maybe not as many as the girl who dances on tables at the bar every weekend, but enough that they wouldn’t have to go many weeks without a date. If they’re going a month without a date, one of these things (or a combination) is happening:
1) They keep up major bitch shields and always stay on the move, so guys just don’t get a chance to approach for the most part.
2) They are getting approached, but their standards are so high that none of the men are attractive to them, so they don’t count.
3) They are getting approached by men attractive enough to count, but they don’t want to get serious yet, so they find ways to sabotage things so that dates don’t happen or don’t develop into anything.
I may be forgetting some options, but the point is that attractive women develop many techniques to keep away interested men and cut things off when they want to. They have to out of a sort of self-defense — they’d never be able to get anything done if they didn’t. It’s also useful once they get married and don’t want to be approached all the time.
You nailed it when you said, “they do seem to not be concerned about eventually making it to 30 single.” Since they’re not concerned about it, they’re doing nothing to prevent it. But that doesn’t mean they’re sitting around passively, waiting for men to approach and giving them a fair chance. That’s not an attractive woman’s default, because again, she’d get nothing else done. The default is “shields up” until she wants a relationship (or a man alpha enough to power through the shields comes along), then she lowers the shields.
They may not know it (or admit it), but they’re doing something to keep away the dates they’re not getting.
Lol, the pretty, virginal women aren’t getting dates?!?!? Really, come on now. Shut up you lot, stop lying. It’s rather funny listening to all the excuses.
The bitch shield…I’ll add another thing to it.
The perma scowl…I’ve seen this on otherwise attractive young women. While it may be just another of the 15,678 shit tests they have…it’s not one I really care to test for. It makes them less attractive…like most shit tests do.
There is no reason why a young women who is attractive is invisible unless it is of her own choosing. When a man who meets her unrealistic checklist were ever to appear to her…she’d do anything to get noticed.
And when it comes to men she isn’t attracted to……….
It is because of the high expectations she has filling her head (or dicks filling her vagina). The 20% of men 80% of women want.
She wants it all, that is her reality….despite the fact that in actual reality, she can never be fully satisfied. No man is ever going to give her everything she wants…but she seems to think he exists.
That’s why most normal men go unnoticed. Knowing this…I still talk and game them, but I expect absolutely nothing from them. If they reject me now after doing the things I’ve done to improve my leadership and masculinity qualities…that is their own fault.
I don’t think you’re right about that kind of partying lifestyle being the reason most women want to delay marriage. Most of my female friends have been freaking out for years about finding somebody to marry, and they’re 24. The problem is that women don’t want to settle down with a man who doesn’t have anything. Most men our age don’t even have permanent jobs, let alone a house or a car or anything else that would signal financial stability. In fact, just finding a guy without mountains of student debt is already difficult. Despite all this feminism nonsense, the vast majority of women are hoping to find a man who can provide for them. They don’t want to have to work in the office until they’re in their 60’s out of financial necessity, spending inadequate amounts of time with their families. They’ll never admit it of course, since the mantra du jour seems to be, “I’m a strong independent woman, hear me roar”. Lastly, while dating older men is an option, most women don’t come across men who are well established financially since they don’t tend to run in the same circles. People at work aren’t going to risk their jobs to try to date their younger female co-workers because that’s a sexual harassment suit waiting to happen. So you have women my age, who are in extremely awkward dating situations, trying to wait for their peers to become established, dragging the relationship out for years waiting for their men to establish themselves financially.
k8,
I’m pretty well established. (Six figure job plus own my own business, solid social circle and church, am well-travelled, am attractive enough to sleep with most women I want to.) Women my age or in their early 20s at church aren’t really interested in dating a well-established Christian guy.
They are, however, interested in me if I meet them outside of church and run standard game on them.
Here’s an example: you wouldn’t date me, even though you know I meet your 12-point checklist above.
@K8
I know the economy is especially difficult right now, but even in better times it was very common for couples to marry with very little to their name. When my wife and I married I was working for a temporary agency and I think she was too. We lived in a tiny one bedroom apartment and slept on an old futon mattress (no frame, just the mattress on the floor). Our dining room table was an old steel desk. We did have a car, which we shared (along with carpooling and the city bus) to get to work. We built up from this while putting my wife through college without taking on any debt. We built our lives together.
If you want to see just how absurd this logic is, consider a theoretical parallel. Consider a young Christian male blogger who signals online his willingness to marry a similarly young, chaste, serious etc Christian woman, and then complains about the lack of responses he’s getting even though, in his words, he’s putting himself out there. Women and white knights would ridicule and attack him with unbridled viciousness.
In other words, Frank S.
The vitriol levelled at him is astounding.
Christian women want nothing to do with him.
The basic assumption from women like Haley’s Halo is that they deserve one of those top 20% of alpha men, despite the fact they belong to the 80% of women. The math simply doesn’t work out. The best they can hope for me is to be one of my “mistakes”. And that’s truly sad.
@Dalrock,
One wonders how Christian families are supposed to be formed in countries experiencing persecution, like Roman-era Judea, modern-day China, or even in places with abject poverty, like Zimbabwe.
There is, simply put, no financial stability available for 99% of Christian men in those places.
And there’s part of the problem. Maybe on the inside, or when they’re being honest with a close friend, these pretty 24-year-olds talk about wanting marriage. But out in public or in their social circles, that reflexive feminism kicks in (naturally, since we’re all breathing it) and they push away or don’t even see the guys who would give them that.
I had a woman, while hanging around me all the time and clearly wanting a relationship with me, tell me point-blank that she wasn’t ready to get married, might never be because living the independent single life was so great, and didn’t even like kids that much. Her friends told me later that was ridiculous, that she was desperate to be married and already had her future kids’ names picked out. She was just so in the habit after several years of reflexively denying her intentions that she couldn’t admit the truth — and she missed opportunities because of it, and not just with me.
Many reasons why a man going that route would be attacked.
First…complaining. Men aren’t allowed to do that.
Second…men are suppose to “get it”. (h/t Rollo)
Third…a man revealing more information than he has to.
Fourth…using a buffer such as a computer to find chicks. Just go outside and do stuff…women will naturally be there.
@Aaron…is there a more sense of mystery between the girls you game and the ones you see in church. While I wouldn’t tell guys to leave church just to get more chicks…being in church does tell a woman a lot about a guy on the surface.
Lol, the excuses keep on coming. Now, it’s, he must be ‘established’, which runs completely contrary to reality since men are not going to be established until their late 30ties either because of the bad economic market or because of the weak signalling they receive from women ala K8.
And K8, you and your friends are greedy bitches for thinking you deserve to be able to marry a man at your attractive level who is established already and not marrying him while he is actually poor and getting himself established. Who the hell do you think you are that you will allow him to slog away and make himself and then get married to him to claim your prize, for that’s what he is.
And obviously none of your 24+ friends have kept your legs close through your waiting period. Disgusting!
“Most of my female friends have been freaking out for years about finding somebody to marry, and they’re 24. The problem is that women don’t want to settle down with a man who doesn’t have anything.”
Why should them give my best if they aren’t going to give me mine?
Having a woman at home to take care of would motivate a man to make more. I’m single right now and I have no motivation to make more than what I have to take care of myself.
K8:
“women don’t want to settle down with a man who doesn’t have anything. Most men our age don’t even have permanent jobs, let alone a house or a car or anything else that would signal financial stability. In fact, just finding a guy without mountains of student debt is already difficult. Despite all this feminism nonsense, the vast majority of women are hoping to find a man who can provide for them. They don’t want to have to work in the office until they’re in their 60′s out of financial necessity, spending inadequate amounts of time with their families.”
Reading between the lines, you’re really saying you want it all, and you want it all right now – a man who can provide for you AND be a good father AND vacation you two weeks a year in exotic locations AND bring the tingles AND have a bangin’ body AND be a stud lover in the bedroom.
Unless you live in or near the Arctic Circle, there are men all around you with good jobs and money; but you don’t see them because they’re not attractive to you.
There are men all around you with lots of potential, but you don’t give them a chance because they’re just starting out like you, or they aren’t attractive to you.
Nope. If you can’t find a man, it’s not because of the men. It’s because of YOU. I do not believe for one single solitary minute that you can’t find even ONE man who has husband potential. If you can’t, it’s because (1) you’re not attractive enough; (2) you’re not looking in the right places; (3) you’re nuking good men left and right.
“But out in public or in their social circles, that reflexive feminism kicks in (naturally, since we’re all breathing it) and they push away or don’t even see the guys who would give them that.”
Yes. After the one talk I did for a Catholic singles group I spent about 2 weeks speaking one on one with 6 of the guys who attended and 7 of the women.
While some of the guys had issues (one who had a ‘female BFF’ whom he had been friends with since they were 16. They were 32, now, and she was married 10 years but, well, they still spoke privately every week and he shared his deepest emotions with her. I asked him ‘is there anything you wouldn’t want her husband to hear?’ ‘Oh, God! None of it!’ ‘then you need to not speak to her that way ever again’) the number one complain they had was ‘the list’; that women had ‘the list’ and if you missed a check mark you were out forever.
But the weird thing about the women, to me ( a long-married guy with a SAHW) was when I asked guys for the ‘speed dating elevator pitch’ it was ‘education, career, accomplishments, hopes for a wife and family’. When I asked the women for the exact same thing it was ‘education, career, accomplishments, hopes for more education and career’. When I asked they guys they said ‘well, after 6-7 dates if they never mention marriage or kids I assume they aren’t interested, espcially if I have brought it up more than once, so I move on’.
When I asked the women about it they said some variation of ‘well, he should *know* I want a husband and kids!’. ‘and what if he mentions marriage and kids on, say, the third or fourth date?’ I asked. All but one replied ‘that would be creepy to me’ The other one said ‘I have had that happen and that’s it – that is too clingy’.
I explained that expecting the guy to ‘just know’ was fmessed up and most of them got it. I then explained that thinking a guy is creepy because *he mentions he wants what you want* is more messed up and two or three got it.
So I then asked some of the married couples I know who married relatively soon after meeting, married before the age of 28, and have been married for a while. They ALL said some variation of ‘by the third date we were comparing what we wanted in marriage’.
Sure, there are some dysfunctional guys. But as an outsider just dipping in his toe it seems that among the never-marrieds over 30, even the still-virgin devout religious ones, it is the women refusing the men, over and over.
For some it looks like fear, for a ton it looks like Grandma’s Lamp, and for others I have no freakin’ idea.
“women don’t want to settle down with a man who doesn’t have anything.”
The running gag with my wife is that she ‘married [me] for [my] potential’. I was making about $13k a year when we met but she said ‘it was obvious that was a passing fad’.
The ‘waiting until he is completely established’ line sounds like either fear or opportunism.
Protip: according to tons of scholarly research married men out-earn their unmarried peers. If you want him to make more money the sooner you marry him the sooner he starts earning more and the higher his lifetime earnings will climb
“When I asked the women about it they said some variation of ‘well, he should *know* I want a husband and kids!’. ‘and what if he mentions marriage and kids on, say, the third or fourth date?’ I asked. All but one replied ‘that would be creepy to me’ The other one said ‘I have had that happen and that’s it – that is too clingy’.”
So we are supposed to be mind readers…and on the off chance we read their mind correctly, they dump us because it is creepy and clingy.
Translation: I want a hot alpha to commit to and if he isn’t that…I’ll stay stuck in my rationalization loop.
“Nope. If you can’t find a man, it’s not because of the men. It’s because of YOU.”
Not only do women need to hear this…a lot of men need to hear this statement. It is still wise for them to learn game, find a mission, and know the real story of what is going on. It is just as important for them to not beat themselves up because the opposite gender has unrealistic expectations.
“ When I asked the women about it they said some variation of ‘well, he should *know* I want a husband and kids!’. ‘and what if he mentions marriage and kids on, say, the third or fourth date?’ I asked. All but one replied ‘that would be creepy to me’ The other one said ‘I have had that happen and that’s it – that is too clingy’.”
Badger wrote about this. This is “The Cliff”, the tightrope that men always walk when they date. They have to be alpha dominant, but not too much because then he’s an asshole. They have to be beta comfortable and commitment ready, but if it is too much, he’s a creepy, clingy mama’s boy. It’s a Goldilocks syndrome, in which the man is always NEXTed because he’s not JUUUUUUUST right.
Men just can’t win for losing.
http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/deti-on-the-cliff/
Earl,
I don’t think this is an ‘alpha, whatever’ thing, I think this is a fear issue.
Think about it – women have been fed a line for, oh, 40 years that they MUST have a degree, they MUST have a career, they MUST be ‘independent’ (as defined by Marxist Feminist theory), they MUST be ‘strong’ (see: ‘independent’), they MUST NOT submit, etc.
Now, take a young devout religious girl and put her into that culture. A fair number are going to reject that message as counter to their faith. I know a lot of these girls; they may have gone to college, but they typically married what we call young these days and have kids as soon as they can.
A few others tread the career path for a bit but still settle because their grasp of the Myth is weak.
But what would a woman with a firm grip on her faith and *just as firm a grip* on the Myth look like?
My theory? She’d look like this
-She talks to her female friends all the time about how much she wants to be a wife and mother
-She does not mention to prospective husbands that she wants to be a wife and mother
-She will take any excuse to defer marriage and childbearing to work on her education and career
-She would say this delay is ‘just what I am doing while I wait for the right man to come along’
-She would rationalize her rejections as being due to the faults of others (usually the men) and bemoan the ‘lack of good men’
-She would rationalize all of her delays as being ‘out of her control’ (‘after the semester’/’after this year’/’once I have my Master’s’/’once I’ve paid off my credit cards’/etc.)
-She would work hard on building Grandma’s Parlor so it is ever harder to find grandma’s Lamp
-At a certain point, probably about 41, she might, *might* just give up and accept the next proposal, contenting herself that she ‘had to settle’ or even ‘it took forever, but my prince is here!’
They don’t want an Alpha – they don’t want *anyone* because an alpha would destroy their faith and anyone at all would destroy the Myth
@ K8
You are making excuses for these women..
Deti,
But when the women are younger? I think that some of what we are seeing is what happens after the marriage-focused people have left the singles market because they are married.
Thoughts?
She is controlled by her rationalization hamster.
Oh well…let them say whatever they want to say. Their actions are going to give them the life they wanted.
If Ms. 24 year old wants a man who has everything, she’s going to be this…
[D: Or this.]
And if we talk about it, we’re whining. Heck, it even seems like whining to me, and I’m doing it.
Brilliant; that’s it exactly. She’s completely invested in two contradictory ways of thinking, and the only way to avoid choosing between them is to put off marriage indefinitely. A less virtuous girl could just go ahead and shack up with a guy, or enter into a feminist marriage where she dominates. But a girl who truly wants the traditional marriage can’t do that — if she does it, she wants to be the stay-at-home mom and cook for Her Man and all that — but she can’t do that without betraying her feminist beliefs. She can’t marry without going one direction or the other, so she doesn’t.
“…it even seems like whining to me…”
Well, some of it *is* whining. Yes, women have ‘the list’ the career, and are Strong and Independent , and all the rest of it.
True.
But the men out there thrashing around aren’t blameless. Heck, half the time this talk of ‘alphas and betas’ (which I, personally, don’t buy) is just men’s version of blaming the other. I was at a Catholic Singles event; 20 women there were 28-32, most virgins, all there to *specifically* look for a husband and learn how to land one. There were that many single Catholic men there, about the same number of virgins, there to look for and land a wife, or at least learn better how to.
Guess how many men I saw approach women?
There were 4 guys drinking and asking me how to ‘get past the list’. They weren’t talking to women. The women complaining about ‘men are intimidated by my intelligence and success’? Not talking to men.
Baptist group I dropped in on? Same thing
Hell, I bet they are all pretty similar.
To me it looks like there is plenty of whining on both sides of the fence.
And that is OK. Why? We are trying to see past the things that have been in our way. As the father of 5 kids I can assure you; nothing provokes whining like thwarting yourself without realizing that you, yourself, are the problem. It is part of learning.
Women say you’re whining? Who cares? Its just women. If they get annoying ask them when their baby shower is scheduled, that’ll shut ’em up.
Aquinas Dad:
“But when the women are younger? I think that some of what we are seeing is what happens after the marriage-focused people have left the singles market because they are married.”
You and I might be talking about two different things. I was talking about the dominance/comfort calibration a man has to make when dating; and particularly when dating a woman he might be really interested in for marriage. (Contrary to popular belief I don’t think it takes all that long for a man or a woman to figure out if someone might be right for marriage. At the very least I think a determination that someone is NOT right can be made pretty quickly, certainly in 5 to 7 dates. )
Anyway, that need for calibration is “the Cliff”. The man has to do everything EXACTLY right, or he falls off The Cliff.
Great looking, nice, six figure income, but dresses like a Big Bang Theory extra? Off the cliff.
Great looking, nice, dresses well, good job, but has bad breath? Off the cliff.
Charming, good looking, good job, but says something a bit off kilter ONE TIME that she takes the wrong way? Off the cliff.
Does everything right, but one time wears a red shirt that reminds her of her superalpha who broke her heart? Off the cliff.
What this really comes down to is a woman just looking for reasons to reject men instead of reasons to accept him or at least give him a chance. It’s also about attraction too. If you’re having to walk The Cliff, she’s probably just not all that into you anyway.
Cail:
“A less virtuous girl could just go ahead and shack up with a guy, or enter into a feminist marriage where she dominates.”
And a girl that values her faith over the Myth would go ahead and marry. Those girls are, in my personal experience, the lucky ones. Or the smart ones. Heck, the blessed ones.
It’s time for a little red pill dose of reality to the young ladies…since they obviously have no idea how a man’s life works.
In the 20s…you are starting out. They don’t hand out rich paying jobs to 20 year olds because you are not proven and in the mindset of most companies you are still a kid. Men are pretty much potential until they hit 30-35…when they have a track record and have proven something. That is generally the man’s peak in life. Ladies peak is in the late teens-early 20s. You have two options…snag a man when he is on the way up, or commit to an older man. Which from what I hear from rationalization hamsters is both “ew”. Once you hit 30 your options go way down…and by 35 you have hit the expiration date. Hypergamy may not care…but when it comes to a woman’s age, the dick doesn’t care. Wife goggles can only be purchased when you are young.
Now there is that 20% of men who aren’t like that…either they are naturals or were blessed in some other way. So either you better be attractive enough to find and snag the needle in the haystack (and he will have options…so that isn’t a guarentee) or start living in reality. Find a man who is working his way up or older…be his motivation and you will both get the rewards.
Deti:
Yes, I was misunderstanding you.
Thank you.
Heck, I am telling my kids to miss dating (no, I am not a ‘I kissed dating goodbye’ type. That stuff is too Protestant to be complete. No offense). I make sure they are meeting a wide-range of Catholic girls from families I know or are vouched for. I am teaching that they don’t date, they ‘court’ (i.e., ‘dating with the stated intent of looking for a spouse’) and if they can’t figure it out in 6 months it is probably a ‘no’.
Oh, and no in-person time except for Mass plus once a week; never alone in private; limited email/text/other contact.
We’ll see. I never really struggled with dating when I was younger and my sons seem to be, shall we say, ‘facile in social situations’. I will talk to my new contacts among singles about this and see what I can learn.
Sounds accurate, though, based on my limited experience.
“Guess how many men I saw approach women?
There were 4 guys drinking and asking me how to ‘get past the list’. They weren’t talking to women.”
Were they complaining about the fact women have a list so in essence they have given up…or asking for advice on how to get past the list? There is a big difference.
In my case…the fact women have unrealistic expectations or a list…hasn’t stopped me from seeking advice, learning game, talking and approaching women for dates, and going about my mission. Before I found these parts I was pretty much to the giving up stage.
One of the things that make church folk such easy prey for things like feminism is, they get taught to be good citizens, to follow the script, support their society, be better at the citizenship stuff then non believers etc etc and feminism and all the other leftist bull$hit is now considered part of being a good citizen.
20 chicks between 28-32 & you think most were virgins…… I’d bet you everything I have not a one of them was a virgin in any sense of the word.
What K8 says is true. Which is why at 43, I cannot recall the last time I dated a women over 30.
People in the church have a huge blind spot when it comes to feminism. They don’t see the evil behind feminism because it keeps disgusing itself as some sort of good.
Then you have white knight blowhards like Driscoll making things worse.
Aquinas Dad, 12:06 PM
I disagree that men are “whining” by pointing out the difficulties in dating/mating and intersexual relationships. Yes, women have “the list” and StrongIndependent ™. Those are legitimate complaints.
The primary problem with the men is not so much that they won’t approach, but that they don’t have the suite of attractive traits most of these women are looking for: Great looking; supremely confident; and dominant.
These men in your singles groups aren’t approaching because they know they will get blown out of the water and nuclear rejected in full view of the entire church – and those who don’t actually see it will hear about it later.
Same thing at other church singles’ groups.
I’ve been to these singles groups in churches I’ve attended as a single man. They’re a complete joke. The only women who attend are the homely women, the weird women, and the misfits. The only men who attend are hopeless omegas. If one attractive man attends, all the women flock to that one man. Decently attractive people of both sexes avoid church singles groups and never attend. They always fail because they are awkward and tedious; no one enjoys themselves; and people simply stop attending.
I’m more and more coming around to ZippyCatholic’s line of thinking that churches should simply get out of the business of playing yenta to their single members. It’s a waste of time and money. Church is a horrible place to meet women and try to strike up sexual interest because the women there really are interested in a very, very small subset of the men there.
“I was at a Catholic Singles event; 20 women there were 28-32, most virgins, all there to *specifically* look for a husband and learn how to land one.”
I very very much doubt that “most” of those women were virgins. Maybe one or two of them; and that’s being generous.
“I very very much doubt that “most” of those women were virgins. Maybe one or two of them; and that’s being generous.”
Hey they are virigins as long as it isn’t P in V sex…or she was drunk, or it happened in a different country.
I loled, they weren’t virgins and the reason they’re still looking is because they waited so long.
@Ton says: 20 chicks between 28-32 & you think most were virgins…… I’d bet you everything I have not a one of them was a virgin in any sense of the word.
What K8 says is true. Which is why at 43, I cannot recall the last time I dated a women over 30.
Never Marry a Woman Over 30
@ 8to12
Awesome article! Short and to the point!
Take a look at this one:
http://www.baconismagic.ca/canada/35th-birthday/#comment-136261
Shes not even close to my type. But it’s a classic example of the Westernized Female Apex Fallacy. An utterly clueless 35 year old women hitting the wall full stop and not even realizing it.
This sums up:
“At 32 I had the financial means to travel or put a downpayment on a home. I knew it was my last chance for one great adventure before I had to settle down and have children. I was afraid to lose my independence and this was one last act of selfish rebellion.”
🙂 🙂 🙂
LOL
@ 8to12
Man your article was really cool!
So cool.. pithy and simple enough for women without a clue to be blasted with the truth and fall off their chairs ..
@ 8to12
What I mean is it was complicated/advanced yet made simple. Like all effective teaching. It allows any frustrated 30 something to learn all at once. Great article!
@Dalrock “We built up from this while putting my wife through college without taking on any debt. We built our lives together.”
Amen to this. This is how it should be. This unfortunately is becoming a thing of the past. Now it seems like you have to have everything together.
@jf12
Thanks.
—
I think it might be worthwhile differentiating between “well-educated” and “well-schooled” – the former, a benefit; the latter, a liability. Schooling (without being educated), has the worst of both worlds: the esteem of being educated, and the dullness of being uneducated. This may be a worthwhile addition to the discussion regarding differences in education between spouses (and men “feeling threatened”).
@ tacomaster2
Yes Amen to that. Dalrock is blessed from my perspective. And that’s is how it SHOULD be. But unfortunately it ISN’T.
My uncle married my aunt when she was 18 years old. They lived in a run down studio apartment for $100 month. The pipes rattled every time the train went by. 40 years later they are still married. And millionare’s. Uncle runs the same commodities business he started at 24. Aunt keeps the house and handles his books.
This is the way things should be aren’t because women want to “have it all”.
I don’t believe your story about marriageable attractive young nurses in their early 20’s craving marriage – yet going hungry.
Any women who fits this classification could get married tomorrow if she wanted too.
@Michael
Loved the link. That woman from Toronto is a perfect example of Canadian Secretary Syndrome – which we usually for short spell SLUT. Utterly clueless as you say. I wonder what the going rate is in Petra these days for an Arabic lover – we know she has the money as she says so – why not ask?
@ 8to12
That’s where true male power comes from. Women can career and sex it up all they want…but if they get no commitment after 30, they die alone.
No rings for sluts…especially the 30 and above crowd.
These men in your singles groups aren’t approaching because they know they will get blown out of the water and nuclear rejected in full view of the entire church – and those who don’t actually see it will hear about it later.
Yep. I never risk dating any girl in a church I plan to regularly attend. Courted a girl once, things didn’t work out when I found out she read at a fifth grade reading level / was borderline mentally handicapped, we broke up, and suddenly I was a pariah for “breaking her heart.”
Ten years later… I can experiment with trying to ask any girls out who are aware of those events. I get shut out immediately.
Go to a fresh, new church? Dodge the singles events, but try to chat with a few girls (show up late or skip the service), exchange enough info to talk on Facebook, and I’m golden.
Churches need to stop being matchmaking services and start being the body of Christ. Right now, churches are useful only as a hunting gallery for PUAs.
@Aquinas Dad
“I am teaching that they don’t date, they ‘court’ (i.e., ‘dating with the stated intent of looking for a spouse’) and if they can’t figure it out in 6 months it is probably a ‘no’.
Oh, and no in-person time except for Mass plus once a week; never alone in private; limited email/text/other contact.”
There is danger here too. I was one of the few guys (or girls) that approached dating with the intent to find a wife and not go there or end it if I didn’t see marriage potential/probability. After going one year without a girlfriend my freshman year in college, I met a decent looking girl that I connected with. We became close spiritually as well as friends, but I held back from crossing the romantic line pretty well. Probably because of the lack of basic romantic intimacy (hugs, hand holding, kisses), I convinced myself there was more potential there than in reality. Once I crossed the friendship (with tension) line and we made out a few times (1st base only), I realized I was not attracted enough to her for a marriage. I broke it off quick. She was hurt, and I felt crappy. Without in-person alone time and going to first base, I might have tricked myself into marrying her.
P.S. Next semester another decent looking girl said she heard a bad rumor about me (had to be that kiss and breakup situation). She then pursued me romantically for a couple of months before she understood I wasn’t sufficiently interested. I would have classified her as sincere Christian also. And I was quite aware of all the fakes in high school and college.
Earl your “Wife goggles can only be purchased by the young” quote is golden and should be iconic. So true. The best way an aging wife can hold on to a man with money who can afford to replace with young trophies is to help build up his fortune to begin with.
Except for inheritence, about the only young men with serious money are in organized crime or entertainment business.
@galloper6
I had serious money when I was 22, and it did not help my dating prospects whatsoever.
The standard for the young home-schooled Christian women I associated with back then was that I should own both my own business and my own house, which was a little steep to meet. Jonathan Lindvall was chief amongst the promoters of this sophistry.
“I had a woman, while hanging around me all the time and clearly wanting a relationship with me, tell me point-blank that she wasn’t ready to get married, might never be because living the independent single life was so great, and didn’t even like kids that much. Her friends told me later that was ridiculous, that she was desperate to be married and already had her future kids’ names picked out.”
This. I run into it all of the time. Words and actions not aligned whatsoever. Men expected to read the tea leaves. All while the conflicted agendas of feminism and her deepest wants spin her in circles.
“Wife goggles can only be purchased by the young”
Indeed. Something that seems to be lost on the upcoming generations. Building a life together from the start is a critical part of bonding, of building faith, establishing mutual values and priorities – having each others back. The plug-and-play mentality, the expectation of a fully-baked man to insert into a predetermined life trajectory at a time of her choosing is a losing proposition for both.
One of the little secrets (gifts) about growing old together, WRT attraction and bonding, is that image we all form of our mates when we merge lives as young adults: her 22 y/o smile, bright eyes, suntanned shoulders, flaxen hair so soft you can barely grasp it between your fingers when you hold her head. Those things you carry for the rest of your life. She will always have those things because those things she gifted to you alone. You will always see that 22 y/o in her. Those images cannot be formed if everything is done first and then the husband parachutes in right before her 35th birthday. Never knowing her in her youth, being lucky #27 in a long line of men; its a different foundation. Sure, still a lot of memories to be forged, but just not the same.
Similarly, a man who cuts his path into the world from 25, with her at his side, will burn into her the image of a young man with a fire in his belly, dream in his pocket, and that blind determination that only the young possess. He’s doing it for them. The ups and downs on the way will build the muscles, the immune system, and the bonds that will help stay off what life brings when age a obligations slow the burn.
He will love her more for knowing that she saw in him those things he may not have seen himself, that her faith in their shared future and her demonstrated loyalty were not circumstantial and opportunistic.
This is one of the hardest things I have to let go of: that I will never know my future wife in her youth, nor will she know me in mine. I may even be why the desire to marry at all for many men in their 30’s and 40’s wanes. The notion just becomes too transactional, too much about the “fit”, the perfect alignment of two separate, well-worn lives. Yet still fraught with lopsided risks.
@Laszlo. Wonderful reflections on the power of youthful imprinting (aka wife goggles in this context). But that mountain of concern about your own wariness when older will become a molehill if you fall in love.
@Laszlo
A sad event is when a wife divorces a man, and he casts aside his wife goggles. No amount of her flirtations can put them back on, and he roams in a world where women quite his junior lust after a pre-made man such as himself.
There is no reason to sell yourself short on marrying your wife in her youth (presuming marriage is what you really want). I could have my pick of girls in their early 20s in Las Vegas this weekend, if I so desired.
And I’m not that hot, sport a beer gut, am (obviously) divorced, and I’m not even some master of game or pick-up artistry.
I know this 18 year old. A real hottie. She can have any, I mean ANY guy she wants. She wants a full-time boyfriend but is having trouble. I thought it was because she was a virgin and refusing sexual advances, but then I noticed she was staring at young alpha guys alot during a movie (a group of us attended). Then I found out she wasn’t a virgin, but had the taste of alpha in her. She hangs around with her hot friends and parties all the time. YET, there is this young, single, attractive but beta-type guy who is a little infatuated with her. She likes him but he is not ‘cool enough’. Could it be because he is in apprenticeship to become a plumber- blue color worker?
However what I have discovered by pure observations, that the reason she is rejecting him, is because he is TOO NICE to her. The boyfriend who mistreated her, she kept on going back and forth to him. This guy who worships the ground she walks on and whom she did not date, she is not remotely interested in hooking up. This sounds like a very cliche story, but here it pops up again in reality.
For men, shyness and niceness is the road to loneliness. Dominance and confidence (which I have read in these blogs) will surely get u the piece of @ss that men desire, either for sex or marriage. Better to be a remembered @sshole THAN a forgotten nice-guy.
If women were capable of being honest, they would approach men with marital proposals. They won’t do this, because they would have to give up the advantage of only implying what they want instead of clearly speaking out. Being clear and definitive means they can’t change the rules when it suites them.
Just look at their all-too-frequent main sex complaint – “he doesn’t know how to please me”. Do they ever explain what they want? Do they ever show him what they want? NO! They would rather bitch at him, about him, and because of him. Then they come up with all kinds of bogus reasons (“He never does the dishes before he wants to do me!”) to fob the blame off on him and to keep him away.
I have come to the conclusion that women can’t be happy unless they have something to be unhappy about – and it can’t be their fault. Men in general thus suit them to a T. It’s past time we ended this farce and put the onlus on women to ask for what they want – and let them know that they get to pay what it costs to get it. No more Mr Nice Guys.
@Roland,
What you have discovered is referred to as an “alpha widow”.
I carry no piece of guilt and shame greater in my life than thinking of some of the alpha widows I have left in my wake. One of them has not dated or married in 10 years, and has lost her youthful beauty.
And that’s the one I never even went all the way with.
Well, yes and no. If all the nerdy guys and fat guys started approaching girls with persistence, you’d probably see a lot of nuclear rejections. But in reality, I don’t think I’ve ever seen one in person, and I never received one. For all that I feared that kind of public rejection, the worst I ever actually got was a quiet “Oh, thank you, but I’m just not interested/have a boyfriend/not dating.” Or if no one else was around, a longer LJBF letdown. And in hindsight, I can see that a lot of times that I didn’t approach or moved too slowly or carefully, I missed opportunities when the girl was waiting to say yes. So while my hesitancy might have protected me from some rejections — maybe even a nuclear one or two — it probably cost me some relationships, perhaps even a good wife. That’s a shame.
If a man doesn’t have much alpha confidence, the spectre of nuclear rejection isn’t required to make him hesitate; the potential for ordinary, kindly rejection is scary enough. But your main point is still valid: a lot of the holding back by men is because they haven’t gotten the little looks and body language cues that provide the invitation (men approach, but women invite). Or they’ve been around the girls enough already to hear them talk about how much they’re loving the strongandindependent lifestyle. But I’m working on a post on that for later tonight.
@Jf12 “But that mountain of concern about your own wariness when older will become a molehill if you fall in love.”
Long day at work and I’m a bit thick at the moment; please expand.
@A.t.J
Appreciate the thought. I’m 41. I know the possibility is out there, but the age delta gets quite steep at this point. And I just happen to have a low tolerance for the vapid, vacant, self-absorbed tendencies of the 20-somethings. The trade-offs certainly don’t get easier with age. Im actually at the point where over the next several months I’ve got a window to chose a life path that will make it substantially harder to be in the mate-searching and family building mode or plugging into more of a mainstream path, the latter of which would be for the sole purpose of holding onto the possibility of husband/father. They are not mutually exclusive, but it seems that way at the moment. Admittedly, thats dominating my outlook a bit, so yeah, at a bit of a crossroads re: marriage or not. Good times.
Roland the problem you describe comes from “good” young men being taught the WRONG way to get the girls Some mothers seem to think that it is favor to teach Johnny to fail rightously with women.
More About the wife goggles; You can find a ready made forture but not a ready made life binding relationship. They have to be built with time and effort.
@Aaron
I foresee many ‘alpha windows’ will be in her life. She has the alpha taste now, and u can see it in her eyes when hot jocks are lurking around; and her confidence has shot up. The young HOT women all behave the same way; they have one unforgettable night of hot, wild sex, and they set that as a baseline to what they find desirable in a mate.
I tell u, the old adage is especially true to young women:
“Youth is wasted on the young”.
“The bitch shield…I’ll add another thing to it.
The perma scowl…I’ve seen this on otherwise attractive young women.”
It’s OK earl, figured that one out a while back. First mistook it as a natural response to our local weather, then realized it was indoors, too.
Aha. It finally clicked. On young women round here, it’s actually a sign of the permanent crippling hangovers they endure between turning up fashionably late (complete with unwashed bed-hair), and scooting out the door to the wine-bar on the stroke of five (or half-four). Bridget-Jones-world.
lgrobins says:
December 10, 2013 at 9:59 pm
I tend to share your views of the age gap. I do not have a daughter who is 15 and knocked up. But, if I did, I would a thousand times prefer she wed a 40 year old man, stable with a nice house and job and money in the bank. The USA turns everything upside down. If a 40 year old who can support a wife and kids, bangs a 15 year old, we toss him in jail for many years. If she bangs a 15 year old who only chews gum because his mommy gives it to him, and this happens every day, no crime found. This is insane. Yet, even most red pill men buy into it.
And, to the degree you can’t even talk about it without being accused of being a sicko.
Don’t get me wrong. I do not recommend banging 15 year old AW, no more than 30 year old AW. I plan on neither. I have been faithful in my marriage of 38 years. But, people do bang each other. The question is, what do we do about it when it does happen.
Christians 4 Christ! says:
December 11, 2013 at 12:29 am
>>I consider committed cohabitation to be marriage.
Me, too. In Mexico, Free Union may account for as many as half of the marriages in some rural communities. And, they consider themselves really married. Parents agree and after while so do the neighbors. I call this a Private Marriage and is pretty much what marriage was like in the Old Testament.
Mark says:
December 11, 2013 at 2:35 am
>>is how mentally unstable they are.I mean they are very seriously F***** Up in the head!
This is exactly why I wrote the essay on DGM-2 maybe 5 or more years ago, that AW are collectively clinically insane. Because they are. You don’t notice too much until you encounter sane women in other nations.
theasdgamer says:
December 11, 2013 at 5:32 am
>>No, marrying someone around the same age is still the best deal for all concerned. It’s been ancient wisdom, folks. Don’t fight ancient wisdom.
With all respect ancient wisdom had a young woman marry an older man, one who could support her and the kids. It is easy to get sucked into feminist dogma.
## Note that my Aunt Kate married when she was 78 years old. Because she was happy and pleasant and not a Castrator.
theasdgamer says:
December 11, 2013 at 5:46 am
Gamer, you are the one in denial. Women are sympathy sponges. Women know a lot of people believe killing an unborn baby is wrong. So, of course they are not going to admit, “It was my sole decision, and I didn’t care what anyone thought.”
So, of course they are going to say, “Waaa!! Waaa!! My boyfriend pressured me to kill it.” Then, instead of being criticized they get sympathy. This is the wrong board to present women as helpless pawns in the hands of the evil patriarchy. Try a feminist board.
Ditto on the lie that more men commit adultery than women. Women are much more successful liars than men. And, more studies show that women do not think it is wrong to life to achieve a goal.
You are on a board with a man (moi) who remembers when a social worker wrote a paper stating that women’s standard of living dropped a long ways after divorce and men’s went up. She said it was based on a study she made. She was quoted by a zillion other “researchers” as well. Judges raised child support and alimony based on that lie.
Finally a man asked her about it. She admitted to him it was actually her own projection and no study at all. Later the press asked to see her original data and she said she gave the raw data to a graduate student who lost it. All the time it was a d****d lie, and no more.
There was some years ago a woman who wrote a book stating that women got screwed on custody in divorce. Anyone smarter than a rock knew at a glance that was wrong.
She also said most men who won custody were abusers. Also a big lie. She said none of the women were abusers, but in her appendix the lists did state most women who lost custody were indeed abusers.
Women make up fake studies like this because they know society does not permit men to call women d*****d liars, so women are d*****d liars a lot.
So, again I tell you this is the wrong place to present your bogus studies.
##Where should women look for men?
Easiest question on this thread. Coldfoot Alaska. Seriously. In the 90’s my wife and I took one of those cruises. In Coldfoot, we saw two women. One was gray haired, probably 50-ish. The other was 30-ish and fat. Both had young men lined up outside their doors when they came out.
##THE AVERAGE WOMAN WHO MARRIES THE FIRST TIME IN THE US HAS HAD 11 LOVERS ALREADY. PERIOD. GOSH, I WONDER IF THAT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH WOMEN NOT GETTING GOOD MEN!
71, as they say about Alaska, “the odds are good, but the goods are odd!” I didnt think about that one. Houston, Denver, Midland, North Dakota, and Las Vegas have good ratios too. Men go where the jobs are. Go anywhere the energy industry is booming or a military base and you’ve got your pick if you’re a woman.
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@ AA71
It’s got to be more than 11. Dalrock wrote an article titled haunted by a number where a supposed sexual modernist feminist slut felt ashamed when asked for her number of sexual partners by her gynocologist. And under the most legitimate and confidential circumstances possible she lied to her own Gynocologist about her true number of partners. Who does that?
Also if 11 is the average it’s not the median. Focus in on physically attractive females and 11 gets allot bigger. Probably around 16. And that’s before the women providing their numbers for a study on partner counts actually tell the truth.
Another factor worth mentioning is that plain/ugly women and beta chumps have traditionally relied on their social circle to find partners for sex or a relationship, but this method no longer works in an atomized society of small families. Many young people don’t even have siblings or cousins anymore. The methods that are now the norm, i.e. clubbing and cold approaches, simply don’t work for such unattractive people.
Agreed, Michael. I like the (X+3) *2 =Y formula, where you take the N to which a woman will admit, add three, and double it to find out her REAL N.
@ Laszlo
Did you mean one of the hardest things to accept and let go of was that you and your future wife would not mutually know each other in both your youths? If so I fully feel your pain. I just wanted to chary the bond I formed in my youth with an ex forward as my future wife for life. I just wanted one person. There is a bond through history that cannot be replaced. My ex from back then called off the Engadgement and instead cock hopped from one flavor to the next. She actively pursued this choice.
I have a friend from High School who is still married to HS girlfriend. They have a picture perfect live together. I’m happy for him but covet what he was. Not his wife. But his situation. I probably make 4 times what he makes income wise. But I would give it up and trade places with him in an instant.
The good news is you can marry a young girl and burn her real image into your minds eye. The bad news is it will not be mutual. 8(
spot on commentary man.. I relate to what you just said 100%
@ Dalrock
Get an editor dude
It’s late. I’m tired. Im Typing mistakes and wrong words and stuff. The MSM is gonna pull some if these comments to show guys on the manosphere are grammatically challenged.
That’s why the alpha widows and Jenny Eriksons of the world ruin things for everyone.
They rob themselves and their husbands of that bond that lasts through old age…and there isn’t really anything a man can do about it because the corrupt system is rigged in the woman’s favor.
Marriage isn’t what it used to be…and will probably never be that way again unless a massive change happens.
Eeal, that which cannot continue, will not. As you cannot devalue money beyond a certain point, you cannot devalue marriage. People will choose to make their vows in new ways, to cement the life time commitment, for the costs of this system cannot continue indefinately.
@earl
A massive change is coming, although it’s not going to be fun for anyone, myself included.
Most of the so called “beta males” are far more alpha than we think. They just aren’t very alpha compared to Daddy State, and there are many men (such as myself) who are hardly apex alphas, but can do an extremely good job of imitating one with Daddy State backing us up.
I don’t exactly have to fight on a regular basis for my woman’s honour; if violence seems near, I call 911 or pick a new hotel in a nicer part of town to live in, rather than form a neighbourhood watch, like Obsidian over at J4G did.
Beta males are currently busy analysing technology, memorising the hierarchy of My Little Pony, or becoming really, really good chefs. (Scrambled egg recipes currently seem to the be the rage with Red Pillers, for example.)
When push comes to shove, “beta” males will instead get busy defending their property, their families, and their livelihoods. They’ll suddenly seem a lot more alpha.
Who would you rather fight alongside if you feared for your life: Mystery or feministhater? I’d pick the latter, just by his sheer level of rage.
What I’m really getting at above is that women have an advantage in the SMV in absolute terms right now, but at some point that advantage will be reversed.
It’ll get really ugly. We’ll see mothers aborting female fetuses, dowries come back, girls of moderate or ugly attractiveness will be unmarriageable, prostitution will be rampant, and men won’t really give a flying flip.
When everyone’s a member of a criminal gang, every guy gets to ride the train at least once.
I use to think the same kind of thing regarding beta men steeping up. Now I realize that isn’t anymore likely then winny the power-ball lottery…. probably have better luck with the lottery
Michael, take it easy.
“Typing mistakes and wrong words and stuff. The MSM is gonna pull some if these comments to show guys on the manosphere are grammatically challenged.”
We have da mighty GBFM to handle all that spelungs bizzle fer us.
(Now there’s somebody I would pick to strategically cringe behind when TSHTF, standing there stark bollock naked except for a spear and shield, his red cloak streaming in the wind, as he bellowed ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ at the advancing hordes. lozlzozzl.).
“Who would you rather fight alongside if you feared for your life: Mystery or feministhater? I’d pick the latter, just by his sheer level of rage.”
The first step to alphahood isn’t banging chicks…it’s willing to fight for something worthwhile.
A man learns more about himself in a fight than anything else.
@Earl
So true, especially about Feminist Hater. I always thought I was a committed pacifist until my first (but not last) fight.
Yup…in fact that would be my advice for guys who have trouble with women.
Learn to box and then get into the ring.
I was just thinking about this line of Dalrock’s.
And realised I’m just not scared of that anymore. There are seriously things far worse than ending up alone without a wife.
I didnt box but I tried some things…
I tried a version of that when I was first out of college. I took a second job to help save to buy a house. By day i was a chemical sales guy, traveled the states and wore a suit, on weekends I was pumped that I was to sell women’s shoes, my buddies wife was the manager.
Then, I arrive day one……its a Naturalizer store.
I ended up dressing up as Billy Bob the Bear at Chuck E Cheese
Just tossing those flawed strategies in here in case anyone was considering handling fungus ridden elderly women’s toes, or wearing a heavy hot bear suit while rug rats cling to them as they walk around and dance.
@Laszlo
Men’s falling in love is the antidote to all their misgivings. Yes, I speak from personal experience, having married my second wife (I didn’t want the divorce) at age 40. But it is also a universal truth. If you fall in love then you won’t feel you’re missing anything.
@Aaron the Just
You and some others here (entropy etc) briefly allude to the “massive change” coming. Even though, I think, you admit to being a surfer on top of the wave of change of the previous couple of generations, you expect it to crash, on a beach if we continue the analogy.
What is that beach? What is it made of, and what do you think happens long term after the crash? In my own models there are only two stable modes in which the genders coexist. One mode is lifelong monogamy, which is gone forever never to return in this society. There is no possibility of putting the promiscuity genie back into her bottle. The other mode is harems, of which we have a de facto but unstable sort currently in our young people and underclass.
@jf12
Thanks. Makes sense, even if the falling in love part feels like a foreign language at this point.
@Michael
Yes, thats the crux of it. I guess I always assumed that I the majority of my life would be built with one woman at my side. I worked hard, made many sacrifices, delayed gratification, etc. in that effort only to have a combination of blue-pill mindset and external circumstances (two wars and an economic collapse) nullify those plans straight away. Of course my bride-to-be back in 2005 had her own ideas that happened to not include me as a central figure, more of an accouterment to her careerist accomplishments and material accumulations.
When I got the second call to deploy I was making $250k easy, but she was having none of it. There were a couple of slightly dodgy but not unheard of ways for me to bail on my service that she was pressing me to invoke. I found no honor in that. Plus my heart wasn’t in my career, despite the income and status. I’d always felt bound for something different, but in lacking a specific call, I did the right thing by pressing on, making jack, building a secure future.
In any case, by the time the real discussion came around she had already supplanted me with an older, richer, alpha who had better control over his destiny (at least thats part of how I made it out to be). She had it all figured out. Within two weeks I was single, unemployed, and bound for 18 months of suck. The three degrees I got paid for by uncle same turned out to be quite expensive. But I’ve got no regrets. Except for perhaps my full-soak in the feminized blue-pill kool-aid and how that warped the decisions and ultimately my foundation as a man prior to all that mess.
But yeah, I hold out a bit of hope for the existence of some younger women who are not spoiled by the sucking chest wound that is our “culture.” It can be hard to hold back the cynicism though. That is for certain.
To speak of fighting. You should know the REAL story of the Zoot suit riots.
In the early 40s the zoot suit was understood as the gangster uniform. The wearers were usually posers not real gangsters. Then came the war,filling the streets with real tough guys in real uniforms. Then GIs started beating up the fake gangsters in the street. It was a game for heros. It is not convincing to be a pretend tough guy with the streets full of veterans who can and will stomp you. The suit went of of style. The important thing is that for that generation good men ruled the street. The ordinary guy working stiff was a conquering world saving veteran. Cleaver, Bailey Bunker ect were not to be trifed with. And the punks knew it.
@Laszlo
Head over to justfourguys and read Han Solo’s latest “The Lust Starts to Fade”. He gives a recipe for falling in love in his comment number 16: thinking a lot about a woman with whom you have some connection and some mutual attraction and, basically, simply mentally definitively choosing her, deciding on her, selecting her, you will fall in love. I think it’s too easy for men,to fall in love, to be frank it’s a biological scam, and it’s far far far too difficult for women to stay in love. But it’s not too difficult to teach a woman that she ought to act like she’s still in love to the man she promised to love forever, and in women it seems to work that if she acts in love then she will feel in love slowly but surely.
@jf12
Will do, thanks. Yeah, that’s my experience with love. For good or bad, I’ve got to dig myself out of five years of bricking-in that ease of love like some barrel of U-234. I know I’m better armed now than ever before, but I’m still trying to figure out if I have the stomach for herding the feral and managing her fleeting nature.
“A man learns more about himself in a fight than anything else.”
I used to be afraid of fighting because I was afraid of getting hurt, of not “winning”, and of disappointing my dad who was a “take the higher road” kind of pacifist. Then I was thrust into some shit that broke me. Not necessarily in bad ways, if you consider the up-close-and-personal view of certain truths about life and death to be a good thing, but the fight will force you to sort some shit out either way. Now I only fear fighting because of the potential to open up that fissure into darkness and fury that would likely be terribly disproportionate to the actual conflict at hand.
Interestingly, I used to get tested on occasion; one of those nice guys upon which the alphas monkeys would flex their radius of power, with of course me giving way to their unreasonable demands for swagger swath. That hasn’t happened in a long time. I have no doubt that it is due to some kind of aura of mine that suggests that kind of posturing is ill-advised. It was by no means from a conscious doing on my part, but I can see how one might construct such a presence – and would recommend such a regimen on the regular. The whole “its all in your head” thing, doesn’t have to be about all the silly, trivial, or weak things. Power can come from a fiat currency too; it is a belief system after all.
Having a wife is much worse then being alone….. can’t really come up with anything that has a realistic probably of occurring and is less appealing then “wife”…..
Ps every man should fight. It’s building block #1 for masculinity.
Dear Michael:
mt on that. Its exactly how it should be for a decent young man and woman, but not usually how it is.
JF12 – “What is that beach? What is it made of, and what do you think happens long term after the crash? In my own models there are only two stable modes in which the genders coexist. One mode is lifelong monogamy, which is gone forever never to return in this society. There is no possibility of putting the promiscuity genie back into her bottle. The other mode is harems, of which we have a de facto but unstable sort currently in our young people and underclass.”
Polygamy (aka harems) is, by nature, unstable because it is a poor system of rationing. If each man can have, for example, four wives; then, there are going to be many men who have no wife. Those men will eventually destabilize the society. They may just sit at home playing video games and not contributing to the economy, but, one way or another, they will revolt.
In Scandinavia, it appears that serial, unstable cohabitation with out-of-wedlock births is the norm. I am curious as to whether or not the women in these countries are cycling through the same men – with other men left out – in effect, once again, polygamy. I think this is what we are beginning to experience in the UMC in this country, although marriage has not collapsed like it has in Scandinavia. I suspect the Government will just continue to step in and fill the role that men formerly filled – as long as possible.
@Jen: “I am curious as to whether or not the women in these countries are cycling through the same men – with other men left out – in effect, once again, polygamy.” Yes, that’s exactly the situation. And always is. Always, always, always, if women are not forced to be locked in to one man each, which is monogamy, then the women choose to force most of the men to be left out.
I would bet the rent money that in Scandinavia the women are cycling through alphas. Now you mention Sweden, a place where femists got EVERTHING they asked for, and despise their men for it. Meamwhile a culture of Real harems and womans oppression is encroaching and all they can do is ignore or enable it.
Mhmm.
“I would bet the rent money that in Scandinavia the women are cycling through alphas. ”
Scandinavians are more sexually conservative than Americans, despite legal and religious marriage having given way to lifelong committed cohabitation (same thing as marriage in my view).
@C4C
Incorrect. Young Scandinavians are more promisucous than most.
In fact, it is quite common for “serially monogamous” high schoolers to spend the night in each other’s beds under their parents’ roofs, and the parents feel constrained by the government from having a say, although sometimes some pretence at “but it’s a schoolnight!” morality is made.
Scandinavians are more sexually conservative than Americans
How on Earth did you get that idea?
@ Jen
You say life long monogamy is gone forever never to return t this society. Perhaps. But there is the possibility the pendulum will swing the other way. BTW It just occurred to me promiscuity seems to run and in hand with feminism and not a patriarchal society.
I have been in America and I have been in Sweden, and although I am not entirely sure what conservatism means when it comes to sex I can certainly say that Swedes are very easy about nudity – and Americans aren’t.
I am neither a parent nor a dismissed parent but what are we to make of Leif Erikson’s above tweet? Even I know that Theft and Murder are at numbers 6 and 7 in the 10 Commandments. Interestingly, his eldest daughter has yet to be taught about number 8 – Adultery.
I may have those numbers wrong, by the way.
@Opus,
They refer to their kids as Thing-1 and Thing-2 (it’s a Dr. Suess/Cat in the Hat reference).
I assume he is quoting one of his children, although it seems an awfully strange quote.
“Scandinavians are more sexually conservative than Americans”
“How on Earth did you get that idea?”
“Incorrect. Young Scandinavians are more promisucous than most.
In fact, it is quite common for “serially monogamous” high schoolers to spend the night in each other’s beds under their parents’ roofs, and the parents feel constrained by the government from having a say, although sometimes some pretence at “but it’s a schoolnight!” morality is made.”
“I have been in America and I have been in Sweden, and although I am not entirely sure what conservatism means when it comes to sex I can certainly say that Swedes are very easy about nudity – and Americans aren’t.”
– It has nothing to do with nudity. Scandinavians are more likely to stay with the fathers/mothers of their children and raise them together in long term cohabitation than Americans are.
@C4C
“Scandinavians are more likely to stay with the fathers/mothers of their children and raise them together in long term cohabitation than Americans are.” Incorrect. In fact, Scandinavians with children are MORE likely to separate than Americans with children, and this rate is over 75% HIGHER for merely cohabiting Swedes than married Swedes.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2991149/
There is no “Sweden effect” utopia, and never has been. The question I have is: why would you want to believe an obvious untruth?
Sweden may be an exception to the rest of Scandinavia. I just can’t conceive of any nation sluttier than the ours. We are the world’s hardcore porn capital and that is what we are known globally for our perverse and violent sexuality. I mean, we’ve got children talking about “swallowing”. I’ve heard something called “choking” is all the rage in the under 40 set. Please don’t tell me other countries are this far gone.
@C4C
No, Sweden is not an exception to Scandanavia: it is the model Scandanavia. All of the socialist antifamily profeminist policies have been in place longer there, and the promiscuity etc has been earlier and more widespread there (Swedish girls like a slightly higher percentage of Swedish boys, but only slightly). America is considered Puritan by all other Western countries.
That’s not been my experience there at all. They are less independent and more family oriented.
O right Sweden is it that we’re having a go at now? First off, all the other Scands are a bit scared of them. As you’ll find out, if you dig in there. Now I was kind of expecting it, being foreign and all, but by jiminy they are extraordinarily Teutonic. That’s Prussian-teutonic, not nice Bavarian krautishness.
I can see how that would probably would be kind of intimidating, if you didn’t know for sure they’re crap at actual fighting. WIth their hands and stuff. Whereas Finns and Greenlanders? Well fuck that, I’ve got legs and I can run.
I mean they will literally walk over you if you slow down in the street. And throw an absolute eppy if you disregard one of their innumerable rules, codes or conventions. Fuck I even got told off for bad English! And I’m like, wot you dim Nog cunt wot language do you think I speak? And they’re paranoid, took me ages to convince them that I wasn’t taking the piss and pretending to be foreign. “But you are a typical Svede! You look like someone from” (FuckbergLan, wherever). (I get the same shit from Irish people, it’s a bit of a personal hell of mine. Worst one was the guy in some Chinese restaurant in the arse end of Norrland, went nuckin futs, couldn’t understand the phonic difference between Skottland, and Gotland, and yes, thought I was taking the piss). German mate of mine, said one of the (somewhat ponderous, as one might expect) japes him and his mates used to get up to whan younger was to to pretend to be Swedish to all the pissed-up northerners tumbling off the booze-cruise ferries in Kiel or Rostock or wherever it was he was from. Fall for it every time. Personally don’t see the point).
Ok why am I ranting on like this, slagging of the poor harmless creatures? Well it’s this idea that it’s some outpost of liberal(*spit*) values hard by SantaClaus Land. Ain’t. Seriously ain’t. It’s just their bullshit and people buy it. Norwegians are. Kind of. Well actually it’s just they don’t give a fuck. About much of anything, or anyone. On account of they either know you, and your grandpa, personally, or you’re a tourist. Danes are kindof spare Germans, but not breadheads so much, and dam near as smug as the Dutch. Finns (different people altogether) are actually some of the coolest, smartest, friendliest people I ever came across. It’s all lies about them, suicide and looking down at their shoes all the time. The drinking bit is true, mind. Trouble is, they live in a freezing, trackless, fly-infested swamp. And a lot of them are seriously ugly.
Here’s a Swedish story that kind of explains what is going on under all the Liberal BS. In a very indirect way.
On the ferry, going from A to B out there between jobs, after a certain point it all goes duty free, the disco lights under the deck come on and the choons start pumping, Scands go hogwild for the bar, predictably. So we’re getting into it, jigging about (bugger all else to do, pitch dark all day) and one of our lasses goes up to get a round in. OOOOOooo no. >What? I mean W the actual F? > No no madam you are too young > Well that’s awfully fuckin nice of you son but I’m thirty two years old. Four of the Glenmorangie, six Holstein and a Stolly’n’coke ta >No! >Wut? Etc.
Had to go and get her passport (we were cracking up behind her, she was purple in the face by this time, about the only proper laugh we had in the whole time we were there), and they still were definitely not ‘appy, ‘Arry.
She had long hair, see? Seems to be the case that every single woman in Sweden gets her hair cropped to at least nape-length after a certain age. Or did at that time.
Just to be clear, that’s every. single. one. With. no. exceptions. To a certain occultly pre-ordained length that they all know about and nobody else does (doesn’t explain Agneta, though. Or .. does it? Maybe she doesn’t drink).
It’s like a whole nation made out of just aspergers people, or something.
Love your post Tam. Enough slang for a Kippling poem.
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Say a man finds this perfect 20-year-old virgin to marry; how does he know whether or not she is frigid? Or infertile?(in some cultures, a man won’t marry a woman unless she is already pregnant).
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interesting article 1/4 women at 40 consider sex with husband a chore. – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3090172/No-sex-Im-40-New-research-claims-womens-libido-fizzles-41-right-says-Sarah-Vine-just-chore.html