Shortly after I published my post revisiting the question of troublesome mother-in-laws my wife found a recent edition of Dear Prudence about a difficult mother-in-law. The woman writing to Prudence explains that she and her husband make a habit of bringing the in laws on vacation with the family. On the latest trip the mother-in-law rewrote a children’s book with the daughter, creating a happy ending where the girl’s parents die and the girl gets to live with her grandmother. The letter writer explains that they have confronted the mother-in-law, but this didn’t make an impact. She closes her letter with the question “What should we do?”, which is wife speak for “What should I make my husband do next?”
The book was about a girl who visits her grandmother for the summer every year; my MIL wrote an ending with my daughter that said the girl’s parents died and she got to live with her grandmother forever. It was written like a happy ending! When we confronted her (away from the children) that it was inappropriate, she blamed our 5-year-old saying it was all her idea. I am so upset I can’t even look at this woman; and now she is suggesting we get together again next month to go camping. What should we do?
Prudence understood the coded question and explained that the wife needs to make her husband (wait for it) confront the mother-in-law. This is the drama seeker’s go to response, so even though the letter writer explained this had already been tried and failed, Prudence reiterated that manipulating the husband into yet another drama filled confrontation is the only solution:
It’s time for your husband to explain to his mother that while she obviously loves the kids, and vice versa, she has to do some serious rethinking about her behavior. He needs to explain that she may not be aware of it, but she constantly undermines the two of you as parents. Now she’s gone off the rails entirely with the fantasy book ending that refers to the joys of orphanhood. I think he should tell her that an extended summer get-together is on ice this year. He can say you two are so steamed that you’re going to go away as a family without including the in-laws. He can say that he hopes this hiatus gives her a chance to think about how to be a loving grandmother without being an undermining one.
It always cracks me up when people start by explaining how entirely unreasonable someone is being, and then follow up with a solution which would only apply when dealing with someone who is generally speaking reasonable. As I explained in the previous post, this kind of dramatic confrontation is the troublesome mother-in-law equivalent of crack. There are so many ways for a trouble-making mother-in-law to parry such a clumsy response that all I can say for sure is the mother-in-law couldn’t have asked for a better outcome. It may be that the husband will decide bringing his folks along on future family vacations is a bad idea, but setting this up as a punishment only invites decades of “poor me” performances by the mother-in-law. That in doing this he isn’t acting under his own steam, but instead taking orders from a gaggle of gossiping women makes the situation all the worse. This is a major victory for the mother-in-law, and decades of high drama will undoubtedly ensue.
There is another point that the letter writer and Prudence are both missing. The most serious issue here is not the harm to the wife’s feelings, but the potential harm to the daughter herself. She is being used as a pawn by her grandmother to stir up trouble, and this has to be at least somewhat harmful. But Prudence and the letter writer are so caught up in the drama, all they see are the letter writer’s hurt feelings. For both the mother-in-law and the wife, the child is merely a pawn.
And of course it is assumed that the wife must direct the husband in the course of events. For most people today (feminists living in a feminist culture) it is a given, but for Bible believing Christians it is shameful.
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What should the letter-writer do?
So what do you think the couple should do?
I feel so badly for anyone going through something like this. I have besn blessed with a great, emotionally healthy, kind mother in law. Knock on wood!
@The Real Peterman
She should realize that she is not capable of solving this, for the reasons I have explained at length in the two prior posts. She needs to get out of the drama and manipulation business and let her husband handle it.
@kateandluca
I’ve already explained what the wife in the couple should do. I have deliberately avoided pronouncing what the husband should do, because this would then be (laughably but predictably) used by manipulative wives to tell their husbands how Dalrock said they need to deal with their own mothers in law. However, if I were advising the husband (if he asked for my advice), I would advise him to look for ways to manage the situation which:
1) Protect his family.
2) Minimize the drama.
3) Are loving to all involved.
This is a difficult puzzle to solve, and we should be very careful not to box husbands in this kind of difficult situation in by proclaiming he needs to do X or Y. If he does decide to stop bringing the in laws on family vacations, or to restructure how this occurs, I wouldn’t find fault with such a decision and it may be the best way to achieve item #1. I would however strongly advise that he not frame this as punishment or vindictiveness, or about him “being steamed” (keeping items 2 & 3 in mind). I would also suggest that he consider finding ways to structure family time with the in laws where the opportunity for mischief is reduced. He may also want to have a respectful conversation with his father on how to best jointly manage the drama, but this would be a judgment call depending on his assessment of how his father would react.
Indeed.
I left and extremely important part out of my last response regarding advice to the husband, and that would be prayer.
1. She should do nothing until she calms down. Not a word about it until she can discuss it without emotional displays, unless her husband brings it up sooner. Every time she feels angry or tempted to bring it up sooner, she should pray for meekness until it passes.
2. Tell her husband her concerns for their daughter. Nothing about how it insulted them, nothing to suggest that she’s responding in terms of a power play by the mother-in-law. Keep it strictly to things like, “I’m worried that a story like this could give our little girl nightmares.” Don’t go on about it — she’s supplying him with information, not trying to talk him into something. It shouldn’t take more than a couple minutes unless he asks for more of her opinion, in which case she should offer it with the same calmness.
3. Then drop it entirely. Don’t ask him for status updates, or say, “So what should we do next time?” Don’t even end #2 with, “I’ll respect whatever you decide to do,” because that’s passive-aggressive pressure; it assumes that he’s going to do something, and she’s trusting that his decision will match hers. Just drop it and never speak of it again. Treat the mother-in-law with normal respect and friendship unless her husband says otherwise.
The thing is, if she follows this plan, there’s a good chance that somewhere between #1 and #2 she’ll realize this wasn’t the heinous crime it seemed like at first. After all, imagining oneself as an orphan is a pretty common childhood fantasy, even for kids who love their parents and would never really want to lose them. There’s practically a whole genre of children’s books based on the idea, such as the Boxcar Children series. So it may very well be that the little girl asked for such a story. The mother-in-law might still be a psycho with no sense of boundaries, but there may be no actual harm done. Is a pitched battle with the mother-in-law, in which the husband’s authority is trampled by both women, really in anyone’s best interest, especially the little girl’s?
Be reasonable… I still get that a lot.
Excellent advice Cail (the entire comment).
This is good insight. I’m not sure how big a deal the original incident is regarding the daughter. It could be the exercise itself was entirely harmless to her. Either way, the far bigger harm is being caught up at the center of the emotional firestorm the MIL seems to want to ignite, and the wife and Prudence think needs to be extinguished with a thorough dousing of gasoline.
Thanks, Dalrock. By the way, it occurred to me that my list could have been shorter if the battle weren’t already started, necessitating that she take a couple steps back to disengage. If the incident had just happened and they hadn’t “discussed” it yet, the list could be very short:
1. Do nothing.
“For most people today (feminists living in a feminist culture) it is a given, but for Bible believing Christians it is shameful.”
If you ask me it’s shameful no matter who it is. Most of the men in this culture are pathetic simps and the women are complete bitches.
Jim – To clarify, I mean that Bible believing Christians understand that such behavior is shameful while feminists do not. The feminist life is a life of shame, but the feminist is not aware of this.
she and her husband make a habit of bringing the in laws on vacation with the family.
Wait, what? *smh*
“She should realize that she is not capable of solving this, for the reasons I have explained at length in the two prior posts. She needs to get out of the drama and manipulation business and let her husband handle it.” (Dalrock)
This is truth. I wish I had had better mentors (and was wise enough to seek out good mentorship) when we were going through something similar…. There really is nothing that the wife should do, except rely on her husband, and then quietly back him if his entire family rejects him for standing up for his values and beliefs. I think Dalrock had a post awhile ago about mother-in-laws and how the situation is usually a Matriarchy, where the women are the ones in charge and the husbands and fathers (and sons aka, your husband!) HAVE to go along with whatever the women (especially the lead woman, there’s almost always one that becomes the leader in the family) wants to do, thinks, says, or plans. We have experienced this first hand with my husband’s family, it was so bad that the women could openly gossip maliciously about anyone who wasn’t there, and the men would be uncomfortable and hate it, but not be able to even admit that their wives did it. My husband did confront all of their nasty things they did, but it only made matters much worse for him (and our relationship with other family members as they felt they needed to take sides). They took the side of their wives because they had to, they had absolutely no authority in their marriages in order to confront a wife’s bad behavior (Matriarchy?).
Mother in laws like this want the drama, or they wouldn’t be behaving badly, maybe they’re bored with their life, maybe they’re jealous of a daughter-in-law and the attention the son (her husband) gives to her and his new family). I’ll never forget when my husband’s aunt (the main Matriarch of their family, the one who told the other women what to think, how to react, how to manipulate their kids even) attacked him brutally (harassed him with texts for hours) saying that he was valuing and spending too much time with me and our newborn son, our firstborn. It was a month after our son was born, and we had already had them over twice, and had invited them to come and stay a third time (but she’d rejected it). You can’t argue with unreasonable people or make them see truth. I wish I had known that back then, I created so many problems for us by trying to set things right myself.
Keeping the peace (and deciding what to do together, without telling or announcing it to them) is much MUCH better than blowing up the family, engaging in rage-filled fights with in-laws who play dirty, or trying to write them heart-felt letters to get them to “see reason.”
Mother in laws like this want the drama, or they wouldn’t be behaving badly,
Close. Women like this want the drama, because it gives them some degree of control over the man in question.
Women are known to fitness test men. Yes, that can include a mother dealing out s-tests to son, maybe even in parallel with the wife doing her version of the same thing.
Or like Rollo Tomassi’s written about multiple times… women crave the chance to feel indignant.
A slight done by the mother-in-law (or done by a daughter-in-law) gives the hurt of offended woman a chance to feel that sense of unfair treatment that is like crack to women (you’re right… all women). Being wise is to realize what’s going on, believe and trust your husband enough to take care of it in his own way, stay out of it, refuse to engage in bated drama of women throwing insults or little slights, or offensive behaviors. Keeping composure, staying behind your husband’s protection and covering, keeping your integrity and femininity are the way to go… I only know this because I experienced failing at it miserably.
@Jim
“Most of the men in this culture are pathetic simps and the women are complete bitches.”
That’s good to hear and be reminded of.
When my MIL was difficult I froze her out and simply refused to engage her. I Made other plans so that we saw her less. Now she seems regretful and wants to have a closer relationship.
Nothing needs to be said to this MIL. The wife needs to start distancing herself. The MIL will learn or be left out.
Or the wife could tell the father-in-law, “I am twenty years younger and stronger than her. I should not be twenty years more mature. If you can’t keep her from acting like a rotten child and a bad influence to my children, my only options will be to keep her away from my kids or put her over my knee and spank her until her buns glow. Your pick.”
Of course, the wife should be physically capable and actually willing to carry that threat.
davidvs – your suggesting boils down to the wife glowingly leading from behind (I know there’s a pun in there somewhere).
Write another book, leave it where the MIL will find it. In it, the family loves Grandma, but she is dragged off by wolves during vacation and is messily rendered limb from limb. The story ends with the grandchildren founding a Wolf preserve in Grandma’s name. Ending illustration shows the family with happy wolves – wait, one is chewing a bone in the far right of the picture …..it is grandma’s femur….
Emily Yoffe, better known as Dear Prudence, has a very jewish, synonymous in this case with drama, oriented way of dealing with MIL, and other women in general. My advice would be for christian women to not read her column.
A direct quote from an interview:
“Dhet: Does your faith inform your answers to letter writers?
Emily Yoffe: I’m not a particularly religious person, but I do think I’m Jewish in my outlook. Some basic ways are that I’m a “this world,” not “the next world” person. And that forgiveness is not as guiding a principle for me as it is for Christians. Not that I don’t believe in forgiveness, I just don’t believe everyone has to forgive. I don’t want people to get stuck on early traumas, but the pressure to forgive can be destructive in some cases. There are ways to get over things without forgiving the perpetrator.”
Some light entertainment:
If anybody thinks that you dying is a “happy ending” cut them out of your life completely and immediately, regardless of them being close friends or family. Especially so if they poison your child’s mind. This incidentally also solves the problem of them manipulating you or your family members in the future, or playing the victim card against you. Just never talk to them again.
People you really love should probably get 1 (ONE) warning that trying to stir ill will in your family is entirely unacceptable, and should anything even vaguely similar happen again, it will result in permanent blacklisting.
Simple solution – your vacations are for you – not for the in-laws.
Women love drama like men love adventure.
l jess could very well be a ghost writer for Dear Prudence.
The topic at hand here isn’t what the husband should do; it’s what the wife should do. My experience is that the wife should do nothing.
Unmarried women should consider their future in laws before tying the knot.
“Unmarried women should consider their future in laws before tying the knot.”
I think it’s more important to consider how your husband interacts with his parents – is someone who lets his mother control him completely, is his father controlled by her as well… does she emasculate everyone? If so, it’s probably not a man that is very attractive.
Attractive men are masculine enough and usually have a good role model in their life (not always their beta father) that shows them how to lead women.
What I’m saying is… a woman who is attracted to an emasculated, beta man that is his mother’s whipping boy, is probably a feminist woman looking for a husband to control.
Women love drama like men love adventure.
Women need drama like all other living creatures need oxygen, water, and food.
Women love drama like men love adventure.
Sometimes I think for most of them it is an adventure.
Haven’t seen Sarah’s Daughter blasting Christian single men for their perceived failures to pursue single women for marriage in awhile now. Perhaps she’s finally caught on to the stark reality of what a herd of contemptible shrews most wives are, revealed here in her own comments from the last comment thread;
“It is a very rare man, though, who has a wife who genuinely respects and adores him,”
no shit. And men (including Christian men) who have nagging, manipulative, controlling, sexless, overweight wives are as common as mosquitoes in june after a rainy may. Thank God I managed to avoid marriage long enough to get educated. A man can either love women or he can understand them. Now I understand.
Incidentally, I don’t buy lottery tickets either.
“It is a very rare man, though, who has a wife who genuinely respects and adores him,”
That was taken a bit out of context but never the less, it’s true. 🙂
Haven’t seen Sarah’s Daughter blasting Christian single men for their perceived failures to pursue single women for marriage in awhile now.
After helpful admonishment, much prayer, study and repentance, I have learned what is and is not my business to talk about. My apologies for having stepped over the line of what is acceptable. You have every reason to acknowledge that I was misguided and wrong to write many of the things I did back then, please forgive me. My opinions align with my husband’s as they always have but that doesn’t mean it is appropriate for me to voice them. I appreciate having been welcomed as a guest in a predominantly men’s forum. I will remain committed to try to not overstep my bounds or my welcome with the host and with the regulars who comment here.
I wonder if this is really a MiL problem. It sounds like everyone (including you) are taking for granted the wife’s assumption that the MiL is to blame.
The initial letter claims the MiL “blamed” her granddaughter for the ending. That says to me that Mom made up her mind that A) there’s a problem, and B) that her MiL is it.
When we’re kids, grandparents are great: They give us presents, goodies, time and attention…. and punishments rarely if ever.
I don’t think it’s that far fetched to think the 5 year old might have dreamed up a “grandma and me” happy ending to a story, like grandma said. The “parents die” part could have been due to a child’s limited & short-sighted understanding of death, or even resentment of some recent punishment from Mom & Dad. Could she simply have been in the moment – wishing for the “fun of vacation with grandma forever”?
It sounds like the MiL gave her side and everyone is discounting out of hand.
While it could go either way, IMO, this story sounds difficult to determine whether the drama is really MiL-generated or mom-generated.
Well, as hinted at by my previous post, I find the entire concept of taking in-laws along on a family vacation alien and awkward. It simply wouldn’t occur to me, and I wouldn’t agree to it as a suggestion from anyone else….and I get along fine with my in-laws.
That said, I wouldn’t consider the removal here of the MIL from future vacations as ‘punishment’ for her to whinge on about, but simply correcting a distorted situation…in my mind, the arrangement should never have been allowed to develop in the first place. The potential for conflict far outweighs any possible benefit…its a recipe for trouble in any scenario. If the husband has in-law issues already, why the Hell would he want to bring those along on his vacation, too?
A husband/father’s vacation is for him and his immediate family alone.
My parents go on vacation with us sometimes. If we didn’t take the grandparents to babysit some nights then we’d not have any couple time the whole trip. Probably not an issue for people with older children.
“rugby11ljh says:
May 30, 2015 at 11:34 pm
@Jim
“Most of the men in this culture are pathetic simps and the women are complete bitches.”
That’s good to hear and be reminded of.”
Sometimes the truth hurts.
@Dalrock
What do you think of men who want a submissive wife?
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=962720
i regret what i just did
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=962759
—
Two threads, posted one after the other.
Just saw this:
I think it’s more important to consider how your husband interacts with his parents
This is critical for men vetting a future wife. The woman’s relationship with her father is paramount.
@Dalrock, Have you, perchance, been reading /r/raisedbynarcissists on Reddit? — A few recent posts suggest that some of your articles should be posted there/
Sammich making therapy the MIL needs she does.
creating a happy ending where the girl’s parents die and the girl gets to live with her grandmother
Wishes the death of her own child she does?
The dark side strong in her it is.
Sammich making therapy the MIL needs she does.
I like to say a sammich a day keeps the hamster at bay. Maybe in this case we should kick it up a notch or two.
This is critical for men vetting a future wife. The woman’s relationship with her father is paramount.
Suppose the parents are divorced? That’s about 40% of the millennial population right there.
Mother in law never thought of it like that she only saw it as the child being all hers to love. (control) That is how women think.
Yep, that’s a lot of high risk women. In fact my estimation is that probably more than 95% of women in a feminist society (Canada, the UK, the USA, ect.) are not wife material for a real (1.0) marriage.
Sorry, my 7:52 comment for in response to this:
Suppose the parents are divorced? That’s about 40% of the millennial population right there.
Is it a sin to exchange money for sexy pics & vids?
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=962885
Appropriate Friendships for Husbands and Wives
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=962822
2 guys arrested for man spreading on the New York subway:
http://gothamist.com/2015/05/28/manspreading_crackdown.php
My quick look there makes it seem like many of the posters are narcissists themselves Reginald.
“Most of the men in this culture are pathetic simps and the women are complete bitches.”
That’s good to hear and be reminded of.”
I’ve been on dates where the young women actually boasted that they were bitches and very high maintenance, like these traits were positive attributes and something to be proud of, and appealing to men.
“For both the mother-in-law and the wife, the child is merely a pawn.”
It’s very likely that the wife does not, and will not ever, understand this. The best thing the husband could do is set expectations with his wife on how they will not be, as a family, joining or perpetuating the drama created by his mother. He should also set the expectation that his wife will come to her husband the next time there is an issue with the MIL. (and not some gossip rag “advice” column)
Regarding his mother…
She blamed the 5 year old for her actions. She tipped her hand in a big way by doing that. She has the emotional maturity of a child. A grown woman that blame-shifts to a little kid will forever create drama. Forever. Which is fine, if the husband chooses to understand this about her. It’s likely that he will not.
It’s likely that since he was raised by such a woman, he also tolerates the same disrespect from his wife. His kids will learn the same as well.
The cycle continues.
@Chris said:
“When we’re kids, grandparents are great: They give us presents, goodies, time and attention…. and punishments rarely if ever.”
I wish!
Suppose your grandparents are narcissistic and manipulative from being in the first generation of children raised in the “feel good” parenting style? Be careful of applying your own life to other’s situations. (yes, I am doing this just now as well)
“I don’t think it’s that far fetched to think the 5 year old might have dreamed up a “grandma and me” happy ending to a story, like grandma said.”
Doesn’t matter, the kid is 5 years old. If the child did make up the story, then she needs taught why that was wrong and what the expectations for empathy and compassion are…and it should come from her father.
If the child did make up the story, the MIL should of immediately put a stop to it, and not just went along for the ride. Barring that, the MIL should of confessed her mistake to the parents when confronted and taken full blame. Then the MIL should of discussed with the child why the story was not OK.
Instead, this kid was taught that grandma will let her do whatever she wants, that mom is a drama queen who gets what she wants by complaining, and that her dad is weak with women.
and the cracks keep on appearing –
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11641694/Senior-NHS-doctor-tells-women-have-baby-before-30.html
@Caveclown
”She tipped her hand in a big way by doing that. She has the emotional maturity of a child. A grown woman that blame-shifts to a little kid will forever create drama. Forever.”
Ladies need hardship too you know 😉
A rite of passage or something that will utterly demolish the princess mentality and narcissism of a child that exists in modern day women
You gotta show to the young girl prior to her being a woman is that the world does not revolve around her and she is not special.
Do not spoil your daughters. You will create monsters wreaking havoc in all their paths.
I think this is one where the child actually did concoct the idea, innocently….maybe she knows a kid living with grandparents, maybe she saw it on Lifetime or Hallmark. In any case it was childhood naivete, and the MIL is like most people, doing a task with the kid saying “oh that’s nice” never thinking too deeply about it.
On the other hand had the child written that grandma died, it would have been scrubbed.
Its solipsism on display, not anything nefarious in a focused way.
Your points all stand regardless in terms of advice to confront and translation to husbands responsibility.
@Don Quixote
So a beating from the cops is “rape” now.
@John Nesteutes
”So a beating from the cops is “rape” now.”
Seems like an interesting case of language acting like money printing. In that as money printing gives the person that initially has the money the ability to purchase more good and services in general the currency eventually gets devalued resulting in inflation.
Likewise the use of rape to ensue a false equivalency with the actual heinous act gets the accuser the power to demonize and to punish with the same severity as the deserved punishment for the actual heinous act for whatever crime they deem rape.
In the long run this ends up devaluing the word rape and makes even actual rape victims less believable due to the devaluation of a particular currency inflation of language.
So a beating from the cops is “rape” now.
John you are behind the times here. If accidentally bump into her, say the wrong words to her, or even LOOK at her the wrong way, it’s RAPE. Because patriarchy.
Ladies need hardship too you know 😉
A rite of passage or something that will utterly demolish the princess mentality and narcissism of a child that exists in modern day women
I’m pretty certain that our inevitable dystopian future will do just that. Once everything collapses and the protective bubble bursts, princesses are either gonna “woman up” right quick, or perish.
I’m laying my money on lots of perishing in the near term.
Another case where the act of the cops is outrageous and justifies stupidity (calling it rape).
The misuse of the word doesn’t negate how out of control the police are today.
I’m facing divorce and need some info about how to find a red pill divorce atty.
See if Cordell and Cordell are in your area.
Thanks, SD.
IDK,
When it comes to the legal stuff, just try to keep a clear head. Lawyers are very expensive, and going to court produces random results. You are probably not going to get what you feel you deserve like it’s a TV show.
Research your jurisdiction, learn what you can get based on your circumstances and try to get better than average on that. Your soon to be ex can lawyer up too, it’s no fault most everywhere, and a lawyer war just leads to a lot of money spent. But do figure out what matters most to you, and be firm about what that is.
My soon to be ex will wind up better off financially than me, but that is due to outside circumstances and things that happened before the divorce that I can’t change. If I could change I’d never marry her again, because due to things I didn’t know the marriage had no chance to last any longer than the 8 years it did. Oh well, the kids are born and that’s what matters now.
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Striver, I don’t see how the soon-to-be ex and I will be able to compromise on division of assets.
I would prefer
1. to live in the home, or, alternatively
2. to sell the home
The stb ex wants to live in the home. For her, selling the home is not an option. I don’t want my equity tied up in a home I don’t benefit from.
We are empty nesters and kids are out of school. STB ex has income, but I don’t. We both have IRAs. I am working on a project to produce income, but have no income. I have a little cash.
IDK —
Speak to a local lawyer who represents *men* in divorces. They’re around 0-0 — you want the best one locally who represents men.
Your equity won’t be tied up in the home indefinitely, unless there are offsets against it — that is, the court could say, she gets to keep the home equity in full in exchange for renouncing her right to “X” asset. More commonly, what happens if there is no “tradeable asset” like that is that a mortgage must be taken out to cash out your equity, or the home will be sold and the equity divided.
IRAs are joint property — both of them — pretty much everywhere, so subject to being distributed on divorce. You really want to talk to a man-friendly divorce lawyer here in terms of what your options are to avoid something very punitive financially — lot of that will depend on who earned what during the marriage and so on.
She should do nothing. The husband must deal with it. If I were in his place, I just would not invite the inlaws for the next family vacation, the only explanation being that they need to grow as a family without outside interference, however well intended. If the MIL raises hell, talk to his father about it and put the ball in his court. After all, it’s his crazy bitch so it’s his problem. As the husband, his only priority should be what’s in the interest of the little girl. The husband can only manage his own wife, the mother should be put in her place, subtly or brutally if she’s really thick, but put in her place she must be. I had a similar situation with my own mother. When things finally exploded ( I.e. After several decades her web of lies and manipulation was no longer sustainable) I told her to go to hell. My father asked me a few weeks later to apologize to her, which I didn’t. I leave him to manage his cunt, not my problem anymore. She got the message. Haven’t had a problem in 2 years. She knows I will cut her off completely and definitely from myself and my sons if she ever pulls some shit again. So does the wife, and the wife knows the same goes for her.
I am like Matatan….I had to tell my own mother to GTH! Sometimes that is what is required to protect your kids.