…complementarity is not fundamentally about what opportunities women must forgo, but what responsibilities men must take up.
— Dr. Jason K. Allen, President of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
In Don’t tell women no I quoted Dr. Jason Allen at the CBMW explaining that our problem today is a lack of male leadership:
Rosin has a point, and it is an alarming one. While we recognize the challenges such statistics indicate for a society, as Christians our primary concern is not the country or the culture—it is the home and the church. If the latter are healthy, the former will be healthier.
Many churches are bereft of male leadership, and many congregations exist in a settled fog over what biblical manhood should look like.
Back in March I highlighted the Midwestern Seminary article by Lore Ferguson Wilbert complaining in The Problem With Our Complementarianism that church leaders are “maddeningly male”:
In the 35 years or so since then, liberal churches grew more liberal and the conservative—heaven help us. McQuinn uses the term androcentrism to describe the shift in neo-reformed environments in particular. It means being dominated by or emphasizing masculine interests or a masculine point of view. It wasn’t that the theology was all wrong, it was that the voices of church leaders were maddeningly male, through the male perspective, with male interests paramount, and evaluated by males.
Imagine with me for a moment a room of chimps all chimping about how to be a better room of chimps and pandas.
However, until today I didn’t realize the full connection between the two:
While Dr. Allen is making his name as a complementarian complaining that the church lacks male voices because men (for some mysterious reason) aren’t stepping up and leading, the seminary he is president of is publishing feminist articles on how to improve complementarian churches by replacing male leaders with female leaders.
This is the same fantasy land template complementarians use when it comes to women in the military. They pretend that women aren’t really coveting and forcing their way into men’s roles; instead, they claim that men are forcing women to usurp men’s roles by being unwilling to lead (or fight). The real lack of leadership of course is complementarian men like Dr. Allen being unwilling to say no to rebellious women. Leading by example (saying no to women) is difficult and feels bad, while telling other men the problem is their fault is easy and feels heroic.
The connections between the CBMW and Midwestern don’t end with Dr. Allen. CBMW President Owen Strachan is a professor at the seminary:
Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary President Jason Allen announced that Owen Strachan will join the institution’s faculty on July 1, as associate professor of Christian Theology and as director of a forthcoming center for theology and culture.
This also can’t be a case where the leadership simply isn’t aware of the feminists running amok lower down in their organization. President Strachan has clearly gotten the message Wilbert and her complementarian feminist allies are sending, and he is eager to assure them that he has heard them and the CBMW is working diligently to promote diversity and inclusion.
Strachan offers four reasons readers should attend the 2016 CBMW T4G pre-conference. Reason number one is that the conference features both men and women, and they will focus on the “absolute iron-clad” need for more women teaching in the church:
1. You will see a group of men and women who stand on truth. The speakers at the CBMW T4G pre-conference are not ashamed of God and his Word. They have staked their lives on it. It can be dispiriting to live in a day and age when the Word of God is reviled, but at our sessions, you’ll be encouraged, edified, and trained by gospel proclamation that touches on every aspect of our lives. You’ll hear about many things, including some that we’ve identified as areas that we need to develop further: singleness, the sexualization of human identity, the fatherhood of God, the absolute iron-clad necessity of training women teachers in the church (see Titus 2!), and much more. We’ll cover the majors, in sum, but we’ll also cover less-discussed matters that we’ve heard people asking us to address.
Note the implicit claim that Titus 2 means that women must have formal teaching and leadership roles, despite the fact that the Scripture referenced focuses on informal teaching while the women in the CBMW are not only preachers in all but name but they teach the opposite of what Titus 2 says women should teach. Once the CBMW founders convinced themselves that 1 Tim 2:11-15 doesn’t mean what Christians thought it meant for 2,000 years, the stage was set for women’s ministries to become mandatory; Strachan wants to assure the feminist complementarians that he heard them and is working to reduce the number of chimps chimping.
Reason #2 is standard boiler plate complementarianism, and reason #3 is SJW boiler plate:
2. You will hear a joyful celebration of God’s design…
3. You will see a diverse movement that stretches all over the world…
The fourth and final reason Strachan offers is (again) that the conference will feature women:
4. You will be blessed by the voices of numerous women…
However, the conference isn’t only about women. Dr. Allen will be giving a lecture about men titled:
Complementarity and the Disappearance of Men
God help us all when Christian men “disappear”. I hear that Muslim men are ready and waiting to fill the void, and will be more than happy to settle those emancipated women.
23 chromosomes
Speaking of chimps, here’s a gorrilla. He actually doesn’t look all that “brawn” or “plus-sized” (seems chunky is a better word).
https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/plus-size-male-model-sheds-1422519736434742.html
Pingback: Where have all the good chimps gone? – Manosphere.org
Complementarity and the Disappearance of Men
Gee, I can’t imagine how that happened . . .
Note the implicit claim that Titus 2 means that women must have formal teaching and leadership roles, despite the fact that the Scripture referenced focuses on informal teaching while the women in the CBMW are not only preachers in all but name but they teach the opposite of what Titus 2 says women should teach. Once the CBMW founders convinced themselves that 1 Tim 2:11-15 doesn’t mean what Christians thought it meant for 2,000 years, the stage was set for women’s ministries to become mandatory; Strachan wants to assure the feminist complementarians that he heard them and is working to reduce the number of chimps chimping.
Pretty soon they’re just going to start rewriting the Bible to erase anything in it that puts any sort of restriction on or that says anything unflattering about women. This will be followed at some point by mass confiscations and shreddings/burnings of any version or translation that predates the year 1970 (and such a move will be backed by government force; after all, those old Bibles constitute “hate literature”).
Or maybe Jesus will have returned by then. Judgment Day is going to be particularly ugly for the American “church.”
@ SnapperTrx
“God help us all when Christian men “disappear”. I hear that Muslim men are ready and waiting to fill the void, and will be more than happy to settle those emancipated women.”
The weird thing about it is that the women will actually submit because it would be racist not to.
It’s absolutely bizarre but we’re witnessing this in liberal Western country where in one breath they scream about rape culture and patriarchy while in another tell Western women they need to avoid “provoking” Muslim men by not dressing provocatively or they need to keep an arm’s length from them.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/06/after-wave-of-attacks-german-mayor-warns-women-to-keep-strangers-at-arms-length/
It only makes sense when you accept the fundamental premise of Western feminism; Western men are evil and must be controlled and eventually eradicated. This is why they will create “yes means yes” laws for Western men and say they need to be taught how not to rape but then tell Western women not to offend non-Western men who actually need to be taught that rape is immoral.
A few months back there was a huge debate between people in the manosphere and the Alt. Right about how to respond to attacks on Western women by these Middle Eastern refugees and also in the future when instability grows. I say they made their bed; let them sleep in it. If a woman is willing to submit to the authority of a Western man then fine, protection from him is warranted. But no man should put himself in danger for any woman outside of his “tribe” so to speak. If you’re not in charge you’re not responsible.
The institutions described in the OP are going to collapse because they have no foundation and contradict themselves. They push men out and then wonder where the men have gone. They cut their knees out from under them and wonder why they don’t lead. They will die out wondering why they’re dying.
I wonder how long complementarianism will survive, even if it involves inverting the teachings of the Bible? The doctrine appears to have been developed in the 1980s by guys like Piper to push back on feminist teachings. I think we should give them some credit for that. But the main architects like Piper (and guys like Keller) are getting old. They were raised in a traditional environment, which is one reason why I think they have so little ability to relate to the things discussed here.
The next generation of guys like Chandler are already far less sophisticated and theological. A little more generational turnover and complementarianism could easily fade away.
It’s similar with other issues. We already see Evangelicals desperately jumping on the diversity and racial justice bandwagon. See this for example: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/opinion/a-white-church-no-more.html
This is a bit harder to do when it contradicts the clear text of the Bible, as in sex roles, but it shows the desire of the Evangelical church to conform to the world. They are working on it in all these areas. They’ve already redefined the Bible, so the next step will be to get rid of it entirely. The same is likely to happen with gay marriage and other parts of the sexual revolution.
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.- Matt 24:24
Oh, and side note. Suddenly lds.org is high in google rankings when doing Bible searches.
D, you know that this conference already happened, right? It was April 11-12th. You use future tense in your post.
Many churches are bereft of male leadership, and many congregations exist in a settled fog over what biblical manhood should look like.
Of course, this is by design and it has the obvious tactical advantage for churchian feminists that they can blame it on men.
Pretty soon they’re just going to start rewriting the Bible
Why should the enemy alert the sheep to wolves? They have a winning strategy already using blinkers.
If I understand this correctly, Strachan and other modern church “leasers” are expecting the good men to step up by berating and shaming them? Men will willingly (maybe not happily) accept shaming and berating from other men who they believe have their betterment at heart. Feminists and their male allies like Strachan do not. Strachan may think he does, but he is too steeped in the FI to see clearly.
Make that church “leaders”. Although maybe “leasers” is more appropriate.
And I’ll ask it again in light of this glaringly self-contradicting duplicity; why would any man join this era’s church? What is there for unchurched men in the modern church that would in any way be attractive or supportive to them?
My agnostic brother shows far more interest in church than I do. And I took Jesus Christ as my savior over a decade ago.
I seethe speaking to folks about God and their (not HIS) churches. They get so many simple things exactly wrong. I have to believe their church leaders are either phenomenally stupid / incompetent or downright evil.
I have to believe their church leaders are either phenomenally stupid / incompetent or downright evil.
It really all boils down to this: churchians are brainwashed into thinking that they can co-exist with the world/secular culture and remain unscathed and untainted. They think they can be solid, respectable MC/UMC patriotic citizens of whatever temporal realm they live in and still remain committed Christ followers. Jesus made it clear in multiple places throughout the Gospels that this is impossible, that one cannot serve two masters, that to serve Him was to foresake wealth, comfort, stability, and the respect of the world.
Modern churchians squirm with discomfort, if not outright revulsion, at this notion, however subconsciously. To live a life of privation and persecution for Jesus’s sake, as did the original First Century church, is not even an option for these people. The idea of following Jesus is a whole lot more attractive than the actual act.
It is the cognitive dissonance created by trying to reconcile two absolutely and fundamentally irreconcilable things in order to cater to the world/popular culture that is at the root of the current chaos and collapse. I think most churchian “leaders” know this on a visceral level, but have too much of themselves invested in the current narrative to change.
Shucks, Dalrock, this is easy to explain. It’s all about keeping the cognitive dissonance under control. These men have taken feminist principles as their own, probably unthinkingly. They labor under the delusion of interchangeability, that men and women are exactly the same except women can have baybees. So any numerical difference has to be due to bad men, right?
Rollo has a point. The Female Imperative has a lot more clout than that dusty old Bible does, in these modern churches.
What is there for unchurched men in the modern church that would in any way be attractive or supportive to them?
Nothing.
Then again, most churches today, despite wanting to believe otherwise, are usually not very welcoming places for anyone who is not already part of the “in” crowd. I cannot count the number times at all the churches (both large and small) that I’ve attended as an adult where I was the only one to greet new faces, or even acknowledge their presence on a Sunday morning. Single men, especially, who show up for the first time are treated like lepers, although the reception of couples and families who are first-time visitors isn’t significantly better in most churches.
The Female Imperative has a lot more clout than that dusty old Bible does, in these modern churches.
Caesar’s word also enjoys more clout than God’s word in today’s churches (to the extent that there is any difference between Caesar’s word and the FI).
OT, but I just have to ask: how many of you guys plan on abasing yourselves tomorrow by attending Goddess Day Pedestalization services? I, for one, am sleeping in tomorrow morning.
Snapper,
I hear that Muslim men are ready and waiting to fill the void, and will be more than happy to settle those emancipated women.
Western women deserve no protection whatsoever from Muslims.
Only a fool would put himself between those two entities (cuckservatives standing between them has delayed the natural conflict that should be happening between them).
Rollo,
And I’ll ask it again in light of this glaringly self-contradicting duplicity; why would any man join this era’s church? What is there for unchurched men in the modern church that would in any way be attractive or supportive to them?
As you know, most men are too stupid to see it this way.
If men could awaken from the blue pill, all this would end tomorrow. But they don’t, and won’t.
Even if the penalty for divorce was overt male slavery or even decapitation, men would still get married.
TheQuestion,
The weird thing about it is that the women will actually submit because it would be racist not to.
You have not fully understood female psychology here. They are not submitting to it, they WANT it.
You also should wonder why, if there is to be any immigration at all, that the many docile and economically productive groups are not being chosen. Why, specifically, the most disruptive and violent group that is least likely to assimilate?
Because this is what women get gina tingles from, that is why. Furthermore, women view the purpose of government as to give them more gina tingles and resources. The female voter has no other objective.
See this video :
This is what I wanted to respond with, but hate typing that much from my phone. Women WANT someone in control, just not someone they revile.
In a back handed way this is very true. He meant some leadership things that even he cannot define and would go mealy mouthed in the attempt.
But the complementary marriage as Dalrock has been revealing is anything but an alternative to egalitarianism. This twisted model does have that men must take up a new batch of responsibilities, like looking after everyone in the home, AND the home, even looking after that most-responsible-teenager-in-the-room that he married.
@ Anon
I understand the female psychology involved but I think racial/ethnic double standards come into play as well when women don’t want to submit to the men because they find them repulsive.
There are some who will generate tingles for women but others will not; for them, women will feel pressured to submit out of fear of being called a racist or they will overlook their crimes because of that, not because they are sexually attracted to them.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260971/muslim-refugee-tries-rape-swedish-woman-she-feels-daniel-greenfield
This is even happening to Western men who are sexually assaulted.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3528236/Male-Norwegian-politician-raped-asylum-seeker-says-feels-GUILTY-attacker-deported-man-suffer-Somalia.html
The title of OP should be, “Where have all the good chumps gone?”
@ Rollo Tomassi
I’d say the only reason to go is to meet cute single young women and that’s if the church actually has them and its theology isn’t wholly intolerable. College town churches like mine have quite a few young single ladies which is why I go.
I’d say the only reason to go is to meet cute single young women and that’s if the church actually has them and its theology isn’t wholly intolerable. College town churches like mine have quite a few young single ladies which is why I go.
What exactly about these EAPs differentiates them in any meaningful way from the insufferable young skanks found outside of the church walls?
“3. You will see a diverse movement that stretches all over the world…”
Are you sure they didn’t mean “3. You will see a divorce movement that stretches all over the world..” ?
I hear that Muslim men are ready and waiting to fill the void, and will be more than happy to settle those emancipated women.
That’s apparently Merkel’s plan.
And I’ll ask it again in light of this glaringly self-contradicting duplicity; why would any man join this era’s church?
That’s a big part of why I’m very seriously considering Orthodox conversion.
You have not fully understood female psychology here. They are not submitting to it, they WANT it.
Thank you. This is what I’ve been saying over and over…..there is a European-wide hypergamy angle going on that helps explain why Western women castrate their own men and import Muslim “alphas” to replace them.
Might be an angle there for you to exploit, Rollo.
To: SnapperTrx (May 7, 2016 at 11:03 am) – Under Shaira, non-Muslim western women would be made into slaves. Some would be used as utility slaves (e.g. forced labor) while others would be used as sexual slaves (e.g. concubines). This obviously is what “progressive” liberal feminists want as that is what they’re busy enabling through replacement of post-Christian secularized Western men with orthodox Muslim males.
As for the topic itself:
“While Dr. Allen is making his name as a complementarian complaining that the church lacks male voices because men (for some mysterious reason) aren’t stepping up and leading, the seminary he is president of is publishing feminist articles on how to improve complementarian churches by replacing male leaders with female leaders.”
^ Utter fantasy land is right. A metaphor would be someone committing suicide before they go to bed at night while fully expecting to get up and go to work the next morning. Jason Allen’s thinking and behavior are that detached from reality.
@The Question
”The weird thing about it is that the women will actually submit because it would be racist not to.”
If they rebel they may end up being killed so there.
Are there any reccomended resources, books or sermons that do a good job at explaining Biblical marriage roles?
@Wood Chipper
I advise ignoring the various “religious teachers”. Instead, read and memorize the relevant portions from God’s Word. 1 Cor 7 has a bunch of stuff that is contrary to church teachings. Same with Col 3:18-21, Prov 31:10 and 11-end, Titus 2:1-5, Song of Solomon, etc.
I knew that would be the initial answer. Someone asked me that question and I figured surely someone has taught appropriately on the topic. Even if it is a 60 year old book or a fundamentalist preacher somewhere.
Rollo,
“And I’ll ask it again in light of this glaringly self-contradicting duplicity; why would any man join this era’s church? What is there for unchurched men in the modern church that would in any way be attractive or supportive to them?”
At minimum, for the same reason the left did 50 (or, depending on the church over 100) years ago. It’s an institution that’s been around 2,000 years and so is likely to continue to be around, and it lacks effective leadership.
That said, I’m pretty sure the modern church is not what Jesus had in mind, and it’s not particularly close. I do give some credence to many of our best men through the ages who believed some sort of corporate church to be God’s will, so I’m inclined to make the best possible use of what is at hand.
This is pure evil. Nothing in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic teachings allow women leadership roles. These people wrap themselves in the teachings of God but are instead advocates for evil.
If you’ve read I Samuel, you’ll see, prior to Samuel’s birth/growth, God had Eli and his 2 sons as the High Priests. The church survived temple prostitution and myriad violations of Leviticus. Out of that comes Samuel.
If Christ’s Bride survived Eli, this, too, shall pass.
@Sean:
One point that most everyone tends to forget is that Israel barely ever followed the Lord. Most of the time they actually followed the Lord would occur under the Judgeships of Tola, son of Puah & Jair the Gileadite. (Judges 10:1-5) That’s 55 years, or what seems to be about half the time they ever actually bothered.
It’s a point that needs to be kept in mind when discussing the Bible. The Pharisees were the 2nd Temple attempt to follow the law, and they proceed to kill the Messiah. That tells us a lot about ourselves.
This is the same fantasy land template complementarians use when it comes to women in the military. They pretend that women aren’t really coveting and forcing their way into men’s roles; instead, they claim that men are forcing women to usurp men’s roles by being unwilling to lead (or fight).
There is blue-pill, and then there is off-the-charts goddess cult worship.
The mental malpractice needed to truly believe that men are afraid of military service and women are lining up to fight in the military, is beyond belief.
In reality, instead of volunteering to defend their nation, women are lining up to welcome the very Muslims we would be fighting. Women have no loyalty to their nation, and certainly won’t take more risks relative to a man. If cuckservative goddess-worshippers truly believe this, then any man who participates in their church has to be assumed to be a mangina like them.
Did not sleep in. Did find a church (am travelling). And a solid sermon on Eph 4: 22 was given. The only acknowledgement of the day was a nice bookmark given to the ladies on leaving. Was offered one. Said my mum is 4 time zones away, which is the truth.
However, the quite secular Straits Times led this AM with a lack of sales on Mother’s Day. Clearly the Chinese men are not doing their filial duties.
(Disclaimer: I am not American. I live in a country, and am visiting a country, where being of Christ is not approved).
Whenever I see a sign outside a church that says, “Reverend Dorothy…” or “Reverend Lorraine…..” I just smell the Satanism.
I’ve decided to do what every man who writes here does: avoid Mother’s and especially, Father’s Day at church. I mean, just how often can you stomach some member of the congregation praying about the abusive fathers, on a day that is supposed to honour good fatherhood?
Does anyone ever pray about recognising the misdeeds of abusive mothers on Mother’s Day?
I’ll go to church today and an confident we will continue on through the study of Exodus and make just a passing note of MD. Most of you might think that sounds great, that’s what we need more of, but I’m here to tell you it’s not great. It’s better I suppose than open goddess worship, but a failure to fight is still a failure. Second wave feminism infuses all who attend here, including me, and it’s a form of negligence to think it everything will be okay if we just stick preaching from the Bible. Feminism is making its gains by alot of work and fight and isn’t being met by prayer and stronghold demolishing at my church, so I need help in understanding why it’s seen as a good if a church does slobber today? Men are often told to get into accountability groups and maybe even “encouraged” on Father’s day on areas they can do better, so am I being greedy in wanting the Mom’s to be reminded today of their failure at training younger Moms to be reverent and submissive to their husbands?
Typo, I meant to write “does not slobber.”
This is something I posted on “Not enough cash and prizes”. I’ll repost it for Deep Strength, just to point out what his opposition looks like.
Take women as elder / preachers. It’s an ongoing fight in denominations and independent churches. It’s still a fight in the Roman Catholic church, although behind the scenes where it’s not visible. Here is an an example someone pointed out to me. It’s one preacher who is at a seminary, regretfully pointing out an error to another church. The video is interesting because of all the typical feminist cant in it, and that’s leaving aside the issue of “complementarian”. It is also interesting to note that the head preacher admits he was in favor of women elders from the start so churches hiring new preachers might bear in mind the “long game” some will play. In fact, examine this man’s face as he admits the fact – he’s clearly pleased with himself.
http://www.dennyburk.com/some-reflections-on-a-church-that-has-recently-embraced-egalitarianism/
Disclaimer: Up to the other week, I had no idea who Denny Burk is, I had never heard of “Bent Tree” church before and I’m not anywhere near where Burk lives, or Dallas. No dog in this particular fight.
After two weeks on the road in Australia / NZ, I am just returning home with a layover as we speak in SFO. It’s quite depressing to realize you just cannot get away from this stuff – anywhere. The West is so thoroughly infected with feminism that it is truly inescapable in every corner. I lived in Canada for 7 years so can vouch for its infestation there. Down under? Pervasive there, too.
– Australian Times from 2 weeks ago, extolling the necessity of quotas for hiring women to force “balance” and decrying the disparity that only 17% of Australian CEOs are women.
– Australian Treasurer “wooing” women back into the workplace (as if that’s a crisis).
-In New Zealand, this quaint little reminder in the MOTAT museum – ensuring we never forget how feminism has lifted us out of our Neanderthal mire.
– On the United flight, the obligatory 2 minute video on United’s commitment to Women.
– On the seatback entertainment, my (unfortunate) introduction to the British TV series “Human” where I could stomach no more after the first 5 episodes where no fewer than two husbands are ejected from their homes. One, because he cannot compete with the wife’s newfound robot pool boy and (I am not making this up) “doesn’t make me happy anymore” and the other because the writers just cannot resist making the mother the strong, insightful, independent attorney that feels constant, unfounded guilt over not being a good enough mother, and the husband as a simpering cad that prefers the family robot to his wife – seeing as she’s out bringing home the bacon. The teenage daughter is portrayed as the smartest person in the room, next to mother, and as the resident Albert Einstein in waiting – who can be anything she wants to be – lest we forget. And the pouty faced blonde runway model as the biggest badass to ever hold a lead pipe in her hand – victimized into a stint in a brothel because the men in her life cannot be trusted to take care of her properly so she must grow a pair and do it herself.
No, Swanny, you are not being greedy. It isn’t happening anywhere at any time. The older women are teaching the younger, all right, but to be rebellious in just about every respect because God’s word cannot be trusted to speak for itself – it needed a secular movement to set the church straight – because God speaks through the culture, not vice-versa. This has seriously become the defecto position of most churches – that feminism was God’s way of restoring balance for thousands of years of male privilege and abuse. And it wouldn’t have been necessary if not for men’s failure to listen to the Holy Spirit – otherwise known as wives and girlfriends.
It used to be that the wife steered the car from the passenger seat with well-placed smacks to the husband’s head when she wanted him to turn, slow down, stop, etc. all while giving the careful “Christian” appearance that he was actually the one steering. Now, all pretense of him as the leader has been abandoned. No longer is he the cardboard cutout behind which she stands and the sock puppet that speaks with his voice but teleprompted by her. He’s just redundant now. Both complementarians and egalitarians are pushing the husband to the back seat entirely – or the trunk – because we’re patronizingly told that men have sat behind the wheel for far too long. It is up to men to pay for the car, fix it when it breaks, wash it diligently each week, fuel it lest her hands get smelly, insure it, and upgrade it to a newer model at the appropriate intervals, but way overdue that she should be firmly planted behind the wheel instead of sitting demurely off to the side.
Because that’s only fair.
Whenever I see a sign outside a church that says “Reverend Dorothy…” or “Reverend Lorraine…..” I just smell the Satanism. I just smell the Satanism.
Such places relinquished any claim to being Christian churches by putting a woman in charge and are to be avoided like the plague. The “Reverend Dorothy…” or “Reverend Lorraine…..” is just another way of saying “we wipe our arses with pages from the Bible.”
mrteebs said
The older women are teaching the younger, all right, but to be rebellious…
This point cannot be repeated often enough, given the insistance by so many here that the whole “Titus 2 Wives” idea is a solution to the current problems. Need I really keep reminding the men here that today’s “older women” came of age as 2WF was making its ascendence and were irreparably tainted by it? Just ask yourselvrs this: other than older women in a few VERY traditional or fundamentalist churches, how many older women do ANYTHING Paul instructs them in the Scriptures to do in church? To answer that question is to answer it.
pukeko60 says:
May 8, 2016 at 2:40 am
Congratulations on finding one of the few non-goddess-worshiping churches in which to spend this Sunday morning. You really lucked out (or rather, God had your back and led you to where you needed to be).
A follow-up to my previous post. There was a passing mention of MD, nothing else. However, I did get a strong nonverbal impression that my pastor is aware of the volatility of the subject by the way he said he should mention MD. He was a speaker at the CBMW conference and is not older like Keller and Piper. He’s sharp and always made himself knowledgeable about events, so I will pray for him, that he ends up being the first and most prominent defector from the TGC and CBMW standard silence about women’s rebelliousness.
Neguy should give my pastor a call using my pastor’s CBMW talk as a pretext. I think Neguy’s 19,000 word preparation document could help my book loving pastor listen to his comments. How about it Neguy, have you thought about calling a pastor and finding out what kind of reception you would get? Mine’s national, yet exceedingly reachable, including at his TGC blog. He may not hear me because he knows the situation with my wife is severe and outside of the norm.
I want to ask a general question, why does it seem like pastors only think there are two choices, either staying expositional or being topic focused? I think that false choice gives false comfort in ignoring creeping feminism or other issues. It almost as if they see it as, preach the bible or be an SJW, but I’m not a pastor and I could be in the midst of a mutually exclusive choice and not be aware of it.
Wait, I just saw that even Indiana Jones is going to be female…..
What a laughingstock the democracies of the world have become.
@Mr Teebs
I saw that recently on the way to Mexico City. They end with the plane-full-o-women and some girlish slack jawed voice says something about how exciting the flight was to have so many driven intelligent women in one small space.
It begged someone to ask, if UAL is soooooooo into women, why they gotta do such a goofy video?
Did you all survive the “Mother’s Day” variety show’s in your respected places of worship? I have to say….mine was toned down a lot from last year…..and I believe the only reason for this is because: there are now more child-free women than mothers, and my church actually has a large contingent of single / child-free men…….and after last year a solid group of us men wanted this ceremony toned down a lot. The new Officer at our Corps (Salvation Army) actually listened…….
During a planning committee last month he mentioned “It’s not this church’s responsibility to make sure all mothers here have lunch, flowers, have the church decorated. It’s not Easter or Christmas. This is a secular holiday. We should not have to tell how amazing they are. We can uplift. We must not forget, but I’m more concerned on why their own children, and families are neglecting or not acknowledging them. This we need to look into. Christ wants family relationships repaired and healed. Our mission is to work on getting the whole family here if they live nearby.”
The mothers in my church are now mostly grandmothers, and great grandmothers for the most part…….and they like to be remembered, but they are from a generation of women that would be happy if they just got a card, visit or phone call from their children.
Was surprised that it went well today.
https://m.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/4i810l/according_to_propaganda_spewed_by_university_of/
Dalrock and Rollo,
You’re famous misogynists at the university of Leicester. Congrats.
“It’s not this church’s responsibility to make sure all mothers here have lunch, flowers, have the church decorated. It’s not Easter or Christmas. This is a secular holiday. We should not have to tell how amazing they are. We can uplift. We must not forget, but I’m more concerned on why their own children, and families are neglecting or not acknowledging them. This we need to look into. Christ wants family relationships repaired and healed. Our mission is to work on getting the whole family here if they live nearby.”
Amen, and God bless this man. He’s definitely doing the Lord’s work.
The mothers in my church are now mostly grandmothers, and great grandmothers for the most part…….and they like to be remembered, but they are from a generation of women that would be happy if they just got a card, visit or phone call from their children.
How sad that motherhood in your congregation is reflected mostly in the older generations of wonen, but that’s hardly unique to your congregation. More and more churches are reaping the bitter fruits that they sowed decades ago by following the culture and promoting and preaching YouGoGrrrrrllllism to their women.
My Catholic church’s Mother’s Day service wasn’t so bad. In his sermon, the priest discussed “the importance of mothers.” Then he actually corrected himself and said “the importance of fathers and mother, of both parents.” Then he re-corrected himself and added, “but especially mothers.”
He explained this by saying that mothers spend the most time with the children, and so their contribution is especially important, though both fathers and mothers are important.
After Mass, all mothers were invited to come up to the altar for a special Mother’s Day blessing, and to receive small gifts. Last year it was a rose for each mother. This year it was a printed prayer.
Atticus,
https://m.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/4i810l/according_to_propaganda_spewed_by_university_of/
Wow. There are just 20 blogs, and virtually zero real activists, and yet they are doing a whole seminar on the ‘sphere’.
Imagine if there were 100 blogs and 5 real activists…..
The femdolts apparently spent $160,000 of taxpayer money on this ‘study’. Among other things, they classify Dalrock as a ‘TradCon’.
The Muslim invasion of Britain is not being mentioned. Femdolts like this make me want Muslims to pick up the pace of their invasion.
Jason
They handed out brownies for Mother’s Day. But they didn’t just hand them to the mothers. They asked all women 18 and older to stand up as each got a brownie. I had a problem with that, so I consulted one of the church “leaders.” And he said (in defense of this ridiculous tradition) that they hand out to all women 18 and up because so many of our “sisters in Christ” are unmarried and childless and what about them. I said, “too bad, tough noogies, they get nothing. This is mother’s day. If everyone is special then no one is.” And he just laughed and shrugged his shoulders and said something along the lines of “well, that is just the way it is.” And I shot back to him, “….and so why are you guys in leadership who are giving me so much grief for my just attending but never participating or joining so surprised that I refuse to be an actual member of this church? You think I want to be a part of this?” He just stood there and looked at me cold stone sober with this look of absolute sadness and dread, I think it began to hit him just how much damage has been done to satisfy the feminist imperative.
They handed out brownies for Mother’s Day. But they didn’t just hand them to the mothers. They asked all women 18 and older to stand up as each got a brownie.
Not to make light of an ugly event, but you should have just pretended that the brownies were turds. That might’ve made you feel better.
Guys, this is why WE STAY AT HOME on Goddess Worship Sunday (and on Male Condemnation Sunday, which this year falls on the 19th of next month). We don’t go to church for the purpose of being filled with anger and resentment because Satan has used clueless dupes within God’s church to lay a double thick layer of the FI , spread false teaching, and drive the Holy Spirit away. I don’t think any of us find this to be a pleasant experience. Yet we know it’s coming every year at the same time, but still subject ourselves to it, probably under some misguided delusion that this year we’re going to SAY SOMETHING AND CHANGE THINGS, by God!
Nope. Our presence signals our acceptance of the abuse. Let there be as close as possible to ZE-RO men in the pews on these two Sundays. That WILL send a message that enough is enough!
They handed out brownies for Mother’s Day. But they didn’t just hand them to the mothers. They asked all women 18 and older to stand up as each got a brownie.
Same thing if you watched a baseball game yesterday. Everyone wearing pink, for breast cancer. Now, of course, not all women who are mothers have had breast cancer, but it’s a way to universalize mothers’ day into being, in effect, women’s day, despite that there is already another “women’s day” holiday on the calendar.
Of course, if you point this out, you are immediately branded as a misogynistic shitlord, because real men have no problems worshiping women. It’s what real men do, don’t you know.
IBB- Great response. Good to hold leaders accountable, especially as he tries to slough off his responsibility in it. “It’s just the way it is.” Really? Then why do we need leaders then? You admit you don’t do a damn thing.
My work had free ice cream for all women on Fri. Was thinking about raising a stink about how it discriminated against transgenders…but I’m too busy at the moment for that fight.
My work had free ice cream for all women on Fri.
I noticed several radio stations offering up hymns to estrogen on Friday too (including a prominent “contemporary Christian” one), as well as several stores advertising discounts for women (ALL women, not just mothers) for the entire weekend.
It’s not just a one-day holiday anymore. Soon it’ll be an entire friggin’ week, with Sunday culminating in a formal worship service, participaton in which will be all but mandated.
Swanny River @ May 8, 2016 at 2:43 pm:
“I want to ask a general question, why does it seem like pastors only think there are two choices, either staying expositional or being topic focused?”
One, separation of Church and State. Two, the process of credentialing rewards conformity and following procedure over taking risks.
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach. And the teachers fancy themselves doers.
@Gunner Q:
It’ll be a good day when more seminaries are burned to the ground. Temples of Jezebel always need it.
@RPL
My Catholic church’s Mother’s Day service wasn’t so bad. In his sermon, the priest discussed “the importance of mothers.” Then he actually corrected himself and said “the importance of fathers and mother, of both parents.” Then he re-corrected himself and added, “but especially mothers.”
I’d be real interested to know what your priest says about men on father’s day.
I just read this today. This is a reason Dalrock and you guys here need to stay strong with this. Though no one here today will ever see a change in your life time rest assured you will die knowing you tried to no participate in the destruction of civil society.
http://www.returnofkings.com/86424/did-divorced-women-create-a-generation-of-abused-children
The comments here are a life time of material.
@DrTorch
It might have been more fun to identify yourself as a woman for the moment and get ice cream too.
I don’t have time to search for the link, but Foxnews ran some “Christian” (I think Mormon?) article some jackass wrote a few days ago, with the typical sickening tripe, about how “we objectify women” and how language in songs is demeaning and all this. I don’t know what this guy’s been listening to, or what world he lives in, but this isn’t 1992, with 2Live Crew and Tipper Gore and all that. It’s as if this guy lives in another universe.
You’d have to be BLIND and DEAF to wonder through our society and NOT see how the feminine imperative is in place in all places at all times. But this TradCon is gripping tightly to the narrative that there’s a drug pusher/prostitute pimp somewhere, somehow, pushing Beyonce (et al) onto the center stage at the Superbowl, and everywhere else, showing off her goodies, with a fan blowing on her hair (at all times–part of the white mimicry she and others do).
This guy would go to his FEMA execution camp, surrounded by fellow men being executed, harping the same theme all the way to the gallows “May God judge this wicked women-hating culture”. It’s pathetic.
Btw, someone on here or TRM was posting (think it was Rollo quoting a reader) about how we don’t see stuff like #whatfemaleEroticadoes to your brain, or whatever.
Got me to thinking…how about a National Dildo Buy Back Day ? Where we treat dildos like the male objectifying, “dangerous” items they are and encourage women to throw them in giant bins around the nation…
There is a movement of women who want paid vacations just for being women. They call it ‘MEternity leave’. So they want maternity leave without having children :
http://archive.is/qVioI
Anon: that seems to be the usual progression, with all things female and all things “progressive, socialist, etc”. I mean, what will come right behind the “Pet leave” stuff? Recall how pet owners were griping…”just because we don’t have kids…what about our puppies when they are sick?”
The next thing, most likely from single women, will be…”Hey, just because I chose not to have kids or pets, doesn’t mean I should be treated like a freaking THIRD class citizen” Which will lead everyone getting lots of paid leave….leading to a French kind of socialism…work a few hours, relax the rest of the week. Produce little, or let “those guys” (White Men) do it all.
Every benefit, escalates–at least when it is seen as a benefit to the Left, or “unwashed masses”. If Christians had any balls, they’d be demanding 15-20 min prayer time at work, on the same schedule as us (usually only Zhur and Asr salat reliably occur during work hours…sometimes Magrib).
“why would any man join this era’s church?”
Men join the church for Christ’s sake, not for the sake of the church.
This isn’t a direct response to topic at hand but I think most of the discussion has been had so perhaps people won’t mind my posting this.
This relates mainly to women being attracted to bad men.
Basically about two or so years back there was a NZ TV drama called Top Of The Lake. I only watched two episodes, that was quite enough. I think it would be fair to say it’s not merely dystopian but more specifically it is a sexual dystopia; the idea of a regular married couple seems alien.
One character in particular, I think, masterfully personifies the evil that a lot of women seem to find attractive; he is exceedingly odious. But not only seem to find attractive, will happily put themselves in the way of, if not actively seek out, such a man.
Two good examples, you can find at 18:00 and 24:00 here https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLwOLnNMSjBUL1wRQaeYMNQSWSXHwqbVbu&v=U28mfDZc-AY
Rightly or wrongly I think I was ‘red pill’ at an early age and consequently quite pessimistic (MGTOW) about the prospects of civilisation mainly because of this.
Years ago…..California changed the fair housing rules and called “pets” “human companions” and now we’re starting to see animal owners taking their dogs EVERYWHERE (in restaurants, stores, bars) because they are not “pets” and very soon we will see SSI benefits / disability claims and the like for these “human companions” because of this “harmless word change”
“…how many of you guys plan on abasing yourselves tomorrow by attending Goddess Day Pedestalization services? I, for one, am sleeping in tomorrow morning.”
Happy to say that, after 8 years in my current church, not a single Mother’s Day sermon or celebration. But that’s the way things roll in the PCA.
I remember in my previous church (12 years or so ago) I challenged the pastor that, for just one year, he should challenge the heck out of the mothers on Mother’s Day and praise dads on Father’s Day (women still got a carnation on MD, and the men got a beer – “Dad’s Root Beer” since the denomination was teetotal – on FD). The pastor tried it and afterward said he would never do it again – the blowback he got on MD was fierce.
But if a church celebrates Mother’s Day, it is well to remember that there are some women who long to be mothers who find that kind of celebration very saddening (my wife was among them until we adopted – literally in tears each childless Mother’s Day). So I tend to cut some slack to churches that recognize every woman at such times.
In the Reddit was a progress bar of pics/vids, one of which was the feminist professor with the map of MGTOW. I strolled through and found this: http://i.imgur.com/obFUE9P.webm
The simp husband just shrugged. I believe his wife is fooling around. She sure loves those licks.
I visited a new church for the first time this week, and while the pastor’s message wasn’t completely aimed at moms, it was still primarily aimed at them and even included a variation of Chandler’s claim<.htma> that the dominating cause of women’s sin is driven by their desires to be perfect. In the message I heard yesterday, the pastor said something along the lines of the biggest way Satan tries to get to moms is through their desire to be perfect. If pastors like Chandler and this guy would draw clear distinctions between women’s desires to appear to be perfect in the eyes of men versus a desire to lead a life that is pleasing to God, then I would have no problem with what they’re saying, but instead, they conflate the two perspectives when these are two very different things.
@The Question
“It’s absolutely bizarre but we’re witnessing this in liberal Western country where in one breath they scream about rape culture and patriarchy while in another tell Western women they need to avoid “provoking” Muslim men by not dressing provocatively or they need to keep an arm’s length from them.”
It’s perfectly rational when you understand that women have contempt for weak men and are attracted to strength.
TheQuestion,
“It’s absolutely bizarre but we’re witnessing this in liberal Western country where in one breath they scream about rape culture and patriarchy while in another tell Western women they need to avoid “provoking” Muslim men by not dressing provocatively or they need to keep an arm’s length from them.”
You still have not fully understood how female psychology operates.
This is telling
This is true and is now on display on a global scale. And the church denies the concept of “game’ and the understanding of female nature. And has seen as virtuous to keep young men ignorant and emasculated to provide egalitarian headship.
@astrapto
Yes. I used a bit of license and remained in the tense of what I was quoting. My assumption was that my audience wouldn’t be disappointed if they tried to attend.
@Craig
Heh. Not sure if you are joking or serious. In the event that you are serious, I used chimps because that is the term used to describe Christian men in the feminist article Dr. Allen’s seminary published.
@PokeSalad
The irony being these men begging for handouts are no alphas. Western women have mistaken gamma bitchiness for alpha manliness. Note that once the men are up close for a better evaluation, European women aren’t flocking to date or marry the refugees.
The guys they think they are getting are still in the middle east killing
Note that once the men are up close for a better evaluation, European women aren’t flocking to date or marry the refugees.
Ah, but the intent of the government is that they do so. Witness:
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2016/05/08/flirt-workshops-for-invading-migrants-in-germany/
I have been racking my brains to see what the ultimate goal might be for these governments to allow so-called refugees to invade their lands en masse? It sure couldn’t all be in the name of multiculturalism? Or was it to score some point that “Gee, our country is the most refugee-friendly in the world!”?
I recently read that Poland has refused to allow them in, citing security concerns. I wish the other countries would do so. Many of these refugees conveniently avoided surrounding Muslim countries as they marched towards the West.
@Dave
It is a combination of virtue signaling and contempt for the West and Christianity. Sweden for example has long bragged about being the “Humanitarian Superpower”. More astounding than the secular left wanting to replace Christianity with Islam, is the Pope jumping on the same bandwagon.
“More astounding than the secular left wanting to replace Christianity with Islam, is the Pope jumping on the same bandwagon.”
I take exception to that. The Pope may be stupid, the Pope may be heretical, but he’s *not* trying to give Islam an upper hand over Christianity.
I know he’s not very popular in the Manosphere, but he’s not trying to bring about Muslim victory.
I take exception to that. The Pope may be stupid, the Pope may be heretical, but he’s *not* trying to give Islam an upper hand over Christianity.
How do you know that to be true? By his words? By his actions? Something else?
I have been racking my brains to see what the ultimate goal might be for these governments to allow so-called refugees to invade their lands en masse?
The Solution
by Bertolt Brecht
After the uprising of the 17th June
The Secretary of the Writers Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?
I will admit, putting aside conscience and morality, the modern (relevant) church would be a veritable untapped gold mine for a christian culture savvy PUA. Churchianity’s already got the perfect social architecture installed for pick up. Christian women aching for sexy Alpha dominance in a sea of preconditioned christian Beta “good guys”, high intrasexual competition anxiety for both sexes, instant reconciliation and sin forgiveness for women, hell, you can even talk a woman into an abortion without her having any accountability for killing her child. What’s not for a PUA to like? Feminine-primary churchianity has been waiting for christian-savvy players for years now.
Maybe Roosh should change venues – his Poosy Paradise is already waiting for him in the modern church. And all he needs with these intentionally naive christian women is to know a few kitchy christianese buzz terms and act as if he’s “seeking” answers while he runs Game on them.
Maybe Roosh should change venues – his Poosy Paradise is already waiting for him in the modern church. And all he needs with these intentionally naive christian women is to know a few kitchy christianese buzz terms and act as if he’s “seeking” answers while he runs Game on them.
Yup.
The hilarious part is that for all the indignant whiteknighting verbal flatulence from the pulpit from clowns like Driscoll and Chandler about keeping playahs out of their churches, none of them would ever even recognize a PUA as seasoned as Roosh, who would operate with skilled impunity right under their own noses.
I will admit, putting aside conscience and morality, the modern (relevant) church would be a veritable untapped gold mine for a christian culture savvy PUA.
People talked about the Sunday Morning Nightclub years ago..
“I have been racking my brains to see what the ultimate goal might be for these governments to allow so-called refugees to invade their lands en masse?”
“It is a combination of virtue signaling and contempt for the West and Christianity.”
And atheism means the worst case scenario for selling out your people is a golden parachute into anonymous tropical retirement. Who cares if the world burns so long as you get yours?
That’s why atheism has always been the bloodiest religion.
…
Rollo Tomassi @ 6:13 pm:
“I will admit, putting aside conscience and morality, the modern (relevant) church would be a veritable untapped gold mine for a christian culture savvy PUA.”
Eh. She’s in church on Sunday to repent of Friday and Saturday. The PUA has probably met her already in the bars. And to think, I almost joined the fuckbuddy drummers because there wasn’t anything else for a young man to do in church except worship music. (I did learn the cello but nobody humped me for that, even though I’m big enough to play it like a violin.)
@Swanny River,
My own pastor took it pretty well. My first stop is Keller but I’m happy to talk to your pastor next. Connect if you want at newhack@yahoo.com
It’s just taking me some time to get it all on paper. I’m 6500 words into my red pill recapitulation. One I finish it, I’m open for business. It’s taking some time. As it turns out, some of the red pill tropes aren’t true. Age of marriage is at a record high, but not that much higher than in 1890. Age of marriage fell to an unusually low level in the 1950s. Much of the rise in age of first marriage is also driven by racial factors. Black age of first marriage has soared, while white age of first marriage hasn’t actually gone up that much. Also, there were always a significant number of women 30+ and even 40+ who were unmarried, even in the 19th century.
Dalrock has done some good work on this statistically, but I think a key weakness of the red pill model is that it’s built largely on anecdotes. But they have to stand up in court, so to speak. That’s the reason I took 19,000 words to examine Keller’s marriage book alone. You need to have a thorough, fair, and comprehensive analysis if you want to unplug someone who hasn’t just gone through a horrible frivorce or something.
But I’m pedaling hard on this as there’s a window of opportunity I want to hit.
pukeko60:
If I read you correctly, welcome to Singapore. Was curious which church you attended.
The Straits Times is our national broadsheet. We are a very secular nation. The Government goes great lengths in promoting racial and religious harmony (this has its drawbacks too). The law making abortion legal was passed in 1974; I don’t recall any protests made by the Church then. The Women’s Charter was passed in Parliament in 1961 (before the country became independent). Under this Act husbands have to pay alimony (for a token sum), even if the wife earns more than him or that he has been made incapacitated by illness.
Rollo,
While your observation is (sadly) true, what is even sadder to me is that should such a PUA decide to cast his net among the pews, when word of his presence got out – probably through a couple broken hearts – 100% of the response from the church would be to purge and vilify the wolf (which is appropriate) while precisely 0% of the response would be a call for introspection and a stern rebuke to the prey for their utter lack of virtue and discernment. Wolves do not hunt where there is no prey. But God forbid we’d ever do anything to make women feel bad. We’d instead circle the wagons around our “victim” and throw the pregnant PUA castaway a baby shower while making the betas feel bad for not mowing her lawn and fixing her car.
Rhetorical question-at-large: why did the Old Testament require the death penalty for both parties in adultery – instead of just the man?
mrteebs
What make you think they would purge the wolf. My bet some female member would quietly ask the wolf if there were any more where he came from. He would be the only male the preacher couldn’t speak bad about. The husbands and the reliable types would still be fair game for the lift.
ultimate goal might be for these governments to allow so-called refugees to invade their lands en masse
Prov 1:7, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. These governments are fools, whether they have an agenda or not.
They are under God’s control:
Prov 21:1 In the LORD’s hand the king’s heart is a stream of water
And there is a plan
27Turn from evil and do good; then you will dwell in the land forever.
28For the Lord loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones.
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed; the offspring of the wicked will perish.
29The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.
Europe and its leaders turned from its heritage in Christendom, believing themselves to be wise and powerful, with no need of God. He is mocking them with their own inane decisions that will lead to their destruction.
“. We’d instead circle the wagons around our “victim” and throw the pregnant PUA castaway a baby shower while making the betas feel bad for not mowing her lawn and fixing her car.”
Yep, I’ve seen it happen.
Proverbs 30:21-23 kinda sums it all up
There are three things that make the earth tremble – no, four it cannot endure:
a slave who becomes a king,
an overbearing fool who prospers,
a bitter woman who finally gets a husband,
a servant girl who supplants her mistress.
Neguy,
“As it turns out, some of the red pill tropes aren’t true.”
One trope I believe is untrue goes something like this: 20% of men (alphas) are having sex with 80% of the women.
For example, based on data for United States (2011-2013) as found in CDC/NCHS National Health Statistics Reports January 7, 2016 PDF here, there is no significant difference between men and women for “other-sex sex” (Note: women have about 3 times higher the rate of same-sex contact than men).
Here are percentages with “standard error” in parentheses (“Same-sex” is not included in “any sex”).
.................Any sex....Vaginal....Oral.......Anal.......Same-sex contactFor women 18–24..85.6 (1.4) 81.7 (1.6) 77.3 (2.0) 28.4 (1.7) 19.4 (1.5)
For men 18–24....83.5 (1.7) 79.9 (1.7) 77.6 (2.0) 29.3 (2.1) 6.6 (1.0)
Ignoring the same-sex contact, there appears to be a 1:1 ratio of men and women virgins.
If women “don’t sexually see” the non-alpha men, then just how are these men having sex? I doubt they are all using prostitutes. And why would an alpha man ever have sex with a woman outside of, say, the top third of women? If he wants sex, I would think he would always be able to find a good-looking woman.
So, no problems then, right? Please provide your date. Thanks.
White age of marriage has gone up almost 6 years or more if you include European countries. So yea, that’s quite a bit. Especially considering it’s spent in college fucking around.
Should be ‘data’…
I have an eighteen year old daughter who we are trying to find a husband for. If you are white, Christian and in your twenties shoot me an e-mail robert_engr@yahoo.com I am dead serious.
@Neguy
As you reference, I’ve tried to redirect the focus to actual stats from the very beginning of my blogging. Within my first six months of blogging I challenged the then received manosphere wisdom that we are witnessing a marriage strike. The data simply doesn’t back up the claim. What the data supports is that:
1) Women are continuing to delay marriage further and further.
2) With marriage now no longer something young men see in their near future, more men are (on the margins) doing less to signal provider status. The carping about “Peter Pan” men is a growing trend of single men working like women.
3) Until 2 or 3 years ago, pretty much every white woman who wanted to marry was able to do so by her late thirties. For those who can’t, item 2 above, not a “marriage strike” is driving this change. Despite the recent shift, the vast majority of white women are able to marry by their late thirties. However, given the “marry him!” panic that occurred when the trend wasn’t even statistically visible, it is clear that when a significant percentage of white women can’t marry by their late thirties the hue and cry we will witness will be incredible.
4) While men are very clearly not on a marriage strike, men are becoming much more reluctant to marry divorcées.
5) Divorce rates correlate very strongly with a woman’s perceived opportunity to remarry. Divorce is a young woman’s game, and despite the constant claims of a surge in grey divorce, divorce rates are very low for middle aged women, and minuscule for older women.
But on the topic of age of marriage, I think going back to 1950 is more relevant than looking at earlier ages. The embrace of fornication, illegitimacy, and feminism we have witnessed in the recent decades are very much a part of the trends we have witnessed regarding delayed and (to the extent that we see it) forgone marriage. While the average age of first marriage for women say in Germany in 1790 was the same as the average age of first marriage for women in the US today, the implications of these numbers are quite different.
@Robert,
“I have an eighteen year old daughter who we are trying to find a husband for.”
Try contacting Vaughn Ohlman, he is trying to get Christian families together to network for their marriage age children:
http://letthemmarry.org/
5) Divorce rates correlate very strongly with a woman’s perceived opportunity to remarry. Divorce is a young woman’s game, and despite the constant claims of a surge in grey divorce, divorce rates are very low for middle aged women, and minuscule for older women.
6) The threadbare rant about “middle aged men who toss away the wife of their youth to go get a trophy wife” is pure fantasy. If it was true, then grey divorce would increase rather than decrease. Therefore just as Dalrock says, divorce rates correlate very strongly with a woman’s perceived opportunity to remarry.
It is trivial to walk into just about any social setting where socons / tradcons are and hear about “peter man manboys”, “men in their 50’s who throw wives away”, and so forth. There is a huge mass of totally misinformed men out there in churches, and they are hostile to any information that counters their cargo-cult thinking.
@OKRickety,
That data represent percentages of people who have *ever* engaged in those behaviors so a guy who got one pity-sex in college would be counted the same as Tiger Woods. More accurate data for “who sleeps with whom?” can probably be found in the patterns of STD transmission.
“And why would an alpha man ever have sex with a woman outside of, say, the top third of women?”
Because the top third of women is a moving category determined by age. The top third of women is the youngest third of women and Alphas are happy to bed them all then toss them away when her beauty starts to fade. That’s the very definition of ‘cock carousel’.
Then she marries Captain Save-a-Ho, hates him for not being as good as she’s used to, waits long enough to have a couple kids, cleans out his finances in disgust and starts sleeping with random men to prove to herself she’s still pretty and desirable. Everybody gets sex, in some form, eventually, at least for a while, but only the Alpha comes out happy.
Gunner Q,
I did some further research using the General Social Survey (GSS) to see what I could find further.
If I’m using it correctly and understanding the results correctly, the results are that 57% of 18-24-year-old men have gotten laid at least once per month in 2013 (maybe 2014?). So, a good part of the 85% of so of those who have had sex is not just one instance of “pity-sex in college”.
For women, the percentage is 56%. I find it interesting that the percentages are, again, almost identical for both sexes. Again, this suggests that the claim of 20% alpha/80% all women (or whatever is claimed) is questionable, perhaps a trope.
In case anyone cares, 3% of the boys have had gay sex, and 11% of the girls have had gay sex, in the same period at the same frequency. That seems to fit with perceptions on this blog of women’s sexual behavior. And, of course, hardly justifies the insistence that society must accept gay sex because it so common.
I agree that women are most physically attractive when young, say before 25. Perhaps you missed the fact that the data I provided was for those 18-24 years old?
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