The Country duo Florida Georgia Line has a new worship song* out that raced to number 1 on the Billboard Country chart. The song is titled H.O.L.Y. and is dedicated to praising their savior:
You’re holy, holy, holy, holy
I’m high on loving you, high on loving you
You’re holy, holy, holy, holy
I’m high on loving you, high on loving youYou made the brightest days from the darkest nights
You’re the river bank where I was baptized
Cleansed from the demons
That were killing my freedom
However, the savior they are worshiping in the song is not God but their wives.
That such a song would have instant success should come as no surprise. It feeds ancient temptations in both women and men, temptations which our present age has magnified by declaring them virtues. Going all the way back to the fall, women have been tempted to be like God, and men have been tempted to follow woman instead of God.
Secular reviewers note that the song seems inappropriate in the way that it replaces God with a woman. The Rolling Stone writes:
…Tyler Hubbard kicked off the prayer about a woman so perfect she turns dark into light and reminds him of a baptism they’re together. The mix of Christian imagery and hooking up is most likely a little over-the-line for devoutly religious fans (“Let me lay you down, give it to ya / Get you singing babe, hallelujah”)
Saving Country Music writes:
…but don’t let anybody tell you this song is religious. If anything, it might be sacrilege.
However, I wasn’t able to find any Christian sources calling out the song. Perhaps I wasn’t using the right search terms, or perhaps the song hasn’t yet caught the attention of Christian leaders.
While I wouldn’t be surprised if Christian leaders eventually do denounce the song, it is worth noting that the song is drawing on themes deeply rooted in modern Christian teaching and culture. Worshiping wives is especially common in conservative Christian culture, and a wife’s sexual attraction and feelings of romantic love (or lack thereof) towards her husband are considered a direct signal from God regarding a man’s righteousness. Ultimately this kind of theology, both in pop culture and from Christian teachers, is provided to us because it is what we love.
*H/T Robert
Smh… WICKED! Amen.
“She loves me like Jesus does” and “Cowboys and Angels” are the same stuff.
Supposedly “conservative” country music is silly woman/wife worship + the American flag.
On the other hand, “you aint worth the whiskey” is an almost red-pill country song.
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Country musicicians on the whole are the worst/biggest purveyors of women on pedestals.
Southern Country Bible Belt culture in all its glory. And this from a southerner.
I have not heard the song on the radio…then again when I do listen to ‘country music’ it’s the stuff from the 1950’s thru the early 1970’s…..and I am by far not an expert on the subject.
Would not surprise me a bit with a song like this in the country vein. Country music seems today to be imagery of what it once was, or an image of what it is “supposed” to be. How many folks who listen to country music ‘work on a farm’? How many own a “tractor”? How many spend their days “huntin’ and fishin'”? Very few, if any. Country music today seems to be about “worshiping women” and “trucks” and “drinking beer with the boys” cloaking masculinity in these cultural norms.
Let me remind the readers that “country music’s” BIGGEST market in MUSIC SALES is not Nashville or Texas but LOS ANGELES, California. More country music is sold here than ANY other market in the USA.
We in Christianity hear over and over that ‘country artists’ embody the “values” of our church culture and ‘stand firm’ with us on family, the 4th of July, veterans, and the Flag. Maybe at one time more did, but few do now…and it’s “entertainment” and an “image” now. Read the stories……and backstories of country musicians…….people who made countless people “happy” and “deal with life” for the most part lived miserable lives.
It would not surprise me that many “Christians” today would actually call it a “christian song” and I can see already many churches “adding” it to their Sunday morning entertainment….I mean praise show……….and just changing a few of the lyrics, and voila…we have a REAL Christian song!
It would not surprise me that many “Christians” today would actually call it a “christian song” and I can see already many churches “adding” it to their Sunday morning entertainment….I mean praise show……….and just changing a few of the lyrics, and voila…we have a REAL Christian song!
Count on it; in fact, it has probably already happened in more than one church.
A church I attended up until three months ago actually let a thirteen-year-old girl get up in front of the congregation one Sunday morning and do a solo rendition of Bob Dylan’s Knocking on Heaven’s Door as if it were a praise song – and the entire congregation APPLAUDED!
These stupid people have no clue.
Wife worship got into the Jewish world also. Its effects is to give women overbearing pride. It borders on idolatry.
seventiesjason-
Fantastic description. Modern country music is a sort of marketed “good old fashioned American values.” And somehow, part of those old values includes a romanticizing of blue-pill romanticism and chivalry.
The Maddie and Tae hit from about 2 years back, “girl in a country song” is a perfect example–reminiscing about the good old days when Conway Twity and George Straight were white knighting manginas.
Its a weird view of the world, but is sells.
Gents, I wanted to give you an update on my feminism in the church project.
I previously approached my pastor and send him some preliminary material about feminism in the church. He was receptive. I told him there were more layers to the onion, and he’s game for more of the story.
I wrote a lengthy two-part essay that that recapitulates the “red pill” view of attraction, then dives into how complementarian Christianity is secular feminism with a Biblical veneer. With one exception (using Alpha/Beta) it is completely manosphere free, so does not utilize any jargon, PUA links, etc. I obviously leveraged the ‘sphere a lot, especially Dalrock for the many examples he’s posted over the years. But this is a ground up rebuild of the narrative.
I’m putting the final touches on it this weekend and sending to my pastor Monday or Tuesday. After he reads it, we’ll have a chat about it. It just so happens that I have some connections to some of these pastors we talk about here. One of them is via my own pastor, who previously agreed to pass my material along. If he’s still up for that after I drop this bomb on him, great. If not, I’ll go to Plan B and likely reach out to them via another direction.
I’ll post further updates as I have them. Once I get some feedback on how my essay performs in the field, and make any necessary revisions, I’ll distribute it to anyone here who wants it so you can use for your own purposes.
If anyone wants to stay in contact on this, you can reach me at newhack@yahoo.com
The Entertainment Industry is not Christian run.
For a while, it seemed that Country and Gospel music were exceptions, being located in Nashville rather than in New York City or Los Angeles.
I guess that changed with the conglomerization of Big Media. Today everything — all book, music, TV, and film companies — is owned by only five or six conglomerates. And the people who run those companies are historically hostile to Christianity.
Hank Williams had a red pill song back in the 50s. The refrain went:
“Git that marryin’ outta your head.
I’ll be a bachelor ’til I die.”
Just yesterday I was sitting reading some old Dalrock posts (I recently found this blog and others like it, and after years of wandering around in the wilderness of beta Christian masculinity, pissed off and lonely, I feel like I’ve finally come home), and college-age women showed up on my front door to evangelize to me about “God the mother.” They wanted to show me bible verses. I told them they were foolish, heretical women, and then shut the door.
I take comfort in knowing that God will judge this evil idolatry.
And then this post today. The irony!
You JUST beat me to it. I had a whole thing planned on this song. It’s truly a sight to behold.
I live in the great San Joaquin Valley of California (Fresno)! It’s home. I love it here……and people forget that a lot of solid “country” came from this Valley. Mostly by “Okie family” transplants here from the ‘dust-bowl’ era. Merle Haggard, Buck Owens and his Buckeroos (and his work in the 1960’s was top-shelf…and this music is not my scene btw), Donna Fargo at one point lived in, and called my city of Fresno her home. Pedal-steel guitarist and country musician Billy Mize is from nearby Bakersfield.So when “country folk” today from other parts of the traditional South (and Texas of course) tell about what a dump California is and how it has no culture and values relating to their taste in music……….and I really can’t talk “country” music to them too well because like I said, it’s not, and never really was my scene.
Well…….the whole big-name country music industry is in Los Angeles (sure some, offices in ‘music city’ Nashville and other cities in that genre). Just about all the recording is done in LA, and if it isn’t…..it’s “mixed” or has it’s mix-down in LA. Tons of country music session musicians are based in LA and in California there IS a HUGE scene in the contemporary country music scene. HUGE.
It’s the music buying public in California that probably put this “Holy” song on the charts btw. Maybe a big assumption…but probably true.
As for taking secular songs and making them “Christian”???
Yup, was at a large Mega-church for their Tuesday night men’s fellowship, and what did the “praise” band sing????? Dylan’s 1974 hit “Knockin’ On Heavens Door” with the lyrics cahnged to:
“Jesus takes these chains from me / I can’t take it anymore / in order to be a real man, I have to be knockin’ on heaven’s door”
or something like that…..it was and looked very silly and trite….but boy did that crowd love it. I just did my usual polite standing, listening to the music.
RPchristian – you remind of someone I know that wandered through the same wilderness, namely myself.
Also lately introduced to this blog and others, I’m coming to grips with the terminology; and seeing that others have given more thought and better analysis to an area I understood was amiss, but could not pin down what was happening. I particularly appreciate Dalrock site because the men here are not ashamed of the Gospel, if I may borrow from the apostle Paul.
I had not heard of complementarianism, but it turns up often, including this comment section. Nor had I heard of churchianity vice Chrisitianity, though I have seen it in action and lived it.
Searching complementarianism (which is a hard word to type) I came upon an old blog article by a women named Rachel Held Evans. Most people here probably already know about her as I have seen the name in comments for other posts.
Link here if anyone is interested: http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/complementarians-patriarchy
This is not fair to the man in question since he has no chance to tell a different version – but after I read it I could only think she is the man and he is the woman. She herself seems confident of that as I read it. The comment section strongly reinforces the concept if not in so many words.
I explored the blog further, and can see where the subject song H.O.L.Y. and things of that ilk are gaining traction. It’s all depressing (but also comical if you can have both of those at once), but better to be informed and see that other guys get it and are pushing back.
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I don’t want to derail the conversation. But, I’ve been wanting to ask, and this seems like as good of a post as any.
Considering how rampant this garbage is in the church, including my own, what are you guys doing with your tithe?
Apart from the instrumentation and the affected drawls, radio country is indistinguishable from radio pop. Hence the fact that they both preach female divinity should be thoroughly unsurprising.
Yet another instance showing that feminism always leads to worship of the female as god. If this seems outlandish to you yet, read the folk tale of the fisherman’s wife. This temptation is old to mankind. Even with the Genesis creation account, Eve was tempted in order to ‘be like God’.
This should all be evident from 1 Cor 11 as well. When man follows woman the hierarchy of creation ( God->Jesus->Man->Woman ) is exactly reversed, putting woman on top as God.
Anyone remember those late-night infomercials for “Hits of X Decade”? I always remember the older (well, post-1960) Country ones. I always found something about Country extremely displeasing, as the visceral level. And the singers really off-putting. In hindsight, watching Deltas-play-Alpha (because they can sing okayish) is rather disgusting to watch.
As for the song, Florida Georgia Line already sold their souls to the devil for their success. Too bad they didn’t get any talent in the bargin.
RPChristian.
I specifically tithe into my churches “World Service Fund” which goes through the channels to London (international headquarters) and is used effectively where my church operates in places like Kenya, India, Ghana, and Belize. Training schools, hospitals, and housing…not to build a glorious “church” and stuff like that. I have oft heard that the future of Christianity lies in Africa, India, Asia and parts of South America. That is where I tithe. Locally, I volunteer and serve the city I live in where and when I can.
Okay, listened to it. Really? It’s not that great a song. The singers look like they are from a seattle-scene-grunge group circa 1991. From the comments….chicks love it. Good reason to saty away from it.
From the comments….chicks love it.
Well, uh, yeah. And why not? It’s like an older version of this:
@ RPchristian
I won’t give to any of the institutional churches again until I find one that functions as a church should and not like a business. I give to an organization called, “Compassion”:
http://blog.compassion.com/
“Worshiping wives is especially common in conservative Christian culture…”
I’ve had to address this once in the Men’s Ministry breakfast I attend, you worship God, Jesus as Lord and savior, not your wife.
I can feel my balls shrivel as I read this.
However, the savior they are worshiping in the song is not God but their wives.
There’s no sin like original sin.
Considering how rampant this garbage is in the church, including my own, what are you guys doing with your tithe?
The Christian has nothing to do with tithing. I mean, seriously. There is no example of anyone who paid tithes in the NT. The Apostles, and even Jesus Christ Himself never collected tithes from any believers, nor paid tithes to anyone.
What you give to support the works of God is self-determined and not a set amount. We are to give “as God has prospered” us and as an individual “determines within their own heart” (1 Corinthians ). There is no predetermined amount that we are commanded to give.
That said, I believe that as stewards of whatever God has given us, we are obligated to ensure that those we give to are responsible and trusted enough to make good use of what we give them.
Remember this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly. He who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver. (2 Corinthians 9:6-7).
Christians who continue to pay tithes are really not obeying the Scriptures. Tithes are to be paid to the Levitical priests, none of which are operational in these days; the average amount of tithes is not 10%, but 23.3%; tithes are to be paid with farm produce and not with money.
The doctrine of tithing for the NT believer is a perversion of the OT doctrines, and is irrelevant to us today.
I read the link provided by Lost Patrol, and wanted to comment on the author’s last point, because I think it’s relevant to this discussion. She says:
“And patriarchy doesn’t work because God created both men and women to reflect God’s character and God’s sovereignty over creation, as equal partners with equal value.”
This is a common sentiment I hear among egalitarians, tradcons, and complimentarians alike. It’s a totally risk-free statement that makes people feel comfortable, but also happens to be completely false.
The bible is clear that man was created in God’s image, and woman was created in the image of MAN.
Genesis 2:23 states:
“This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.”
Paul reinforces this in 1 Corinthians 11:7-9:
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
Men more closely resemble God. This is why the Godhead is called “Father,” when God became a human he was male, and why clergy (who represent God to the church) are only male.
To quote Dalrock from his excellent post “Why Christians need game,” if any of the above scripture references make you uncomfortable because they feel sexist, then you just located your inner feminist!
I’m old enough to remember when heavy metal was the most blasphemous music genre.
the average amount of tithes is not 10%, but 23.3%
Which no longer makes them tithes, as the word tithe means “tenth.”
But that doesn’t detract from your larger point that the concept has been grossly abused by the modern corporate church. The NT Scriptures you cite are indeed the operative reference for Christians in terms of how they should approach giving (back) to God. Everyone who is a Christ-follower is called upon to give, very often a whole lot more than ten percent of their income. But it is NOT, as you point out, a matter of Levitican Law (i.e., the tithe, or ten percent of one’s produce), but of what the Holy Spirit moves us to give in accordance with what God hs put in front of us as a mission or need to respond to.
Tithing, It’s already been pointed out the “tithe” is not in fact a New Testament concept. Neither are we living under the circumstances in which the Priesthood represented both the church and the government. The Jews and collected a tithe to support their religion and government. Thats done.
Modern church is largely a joke as are most modern ‘ministers’. The Apostle Paul, who wrote half the New Testament books, had a job. He supported himself as a tent maker and talks in scripture of working to exhaustion to support the poor. The average preacher never works a day in his life.
Giving to the poor is a New Testament instruction. If you work and make any significant income you already give to the poor. As a nation the US has been so generous to the poor that millions of them no longer even try to earn a dollar.
If you’re a taxpayer you’re already giving to the point of absurdity.
If you can find a *worthy* ministry support it if you like, lots of luck.
Tithes go in 7 year cycles. תרומה truma is usually 2% of things obligated in truma. which are the 5 grains, grapes, and olives. This is given only to a male dependent of Aaron. The next tithe is 10% of the same stuff and is given to any Levi. מעשר ראשון. Then there is Maasar Sheni [a tenth of what is left] which is also from fruits and taken to be eaten in Jerusalem within the walls on years 1,2,4,5 of the 7 year cycle. It cant be eaten elsewhere. It is eaten by the owners or with whom they want to share. Maasar Ani is the rough equivalent of maasar sheni. it is given to a poor person on years 3 and 6. the poor person eats it where he wants. year 7 the fields are open for anyone to come in and cant be cultivated. none of this has anything to do with money. It is all about crops–the five grains, grapes, olives, and there is a decree that makes it apply to all fruit trees. You can see all this in the Five books of Moses where it is all spelled out explicitly.
I can think of two relevant, contrasting quotes from the Bible.
In Revelation 19:10, John worships an angel, whereupon the angel upbraids John.
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
This scenario contrasts with Acts 12:21-23.
On the appointed day, Herod donned his royal robes, sat on his throne, and addressed the people. And they began to shout, “This is the voice of a god, not a man!” Immediately, because Herod did not give glory to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
So any woman who loves this song, who basks in its glory, who accepts such worship from her pastor or husband — such a woman resembles prideful Herod, and not the humble angel.
John the Baptist, like the angel, also refused an honor that was not rightfully his, in John 1:19-21.
And this was John’s testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him, “Who are you?” He did not refuse to confess, but openly declared, “I am not the Christ.” “Who are you then?” they inquired. “Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” He answered, “No.”
Paul didn’t always work as a tent maker. He only did that for a time. He also clearly teaches that it is proper for one who preaches the Gospel full time should be supported by those receiving his ministry. People messing that up doesn’t negate the principle.
Those who don’t give anything to a local church they attend are mooching to some extent. Supporting excesses may not be right, but helping provide for heating/cooling and other facility costs is the honorable thing to do. Stay at home if you don’t want to put a demand on those.
The Biblical principle is to support what we are involved with. I would not go to a church (for long) where I could not at least somewhat support it however, so perhaps some of you should stop going if you are so opposed to the message.
Worship of a person. Worship of any human being is idolatry. It is not all that different from worship of sticks and stones. So if a person says “עבדוני” “serve me” or “worship me” he gets the category of a מסית ומדיח [seducer to idolatry]. Worship of any being besides God is idolatry. This I think can be applied to women. Worship can mean doing any kind of serve that was done in the Temple–sacrifice of an animal, incense, libations, burning a sacrifice. But it can also refer to a kind of serve that is the special service of that idol. This means even singing the praise of a human being might very well come into this category.
What proper worship looks like:
Blessed is our God, always now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.
Through the prayers of our holy fathers, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us.
Amen. [Glory to Thee, our God, glory to Thee!]
[O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, Treasury of good things, and Giver of life: come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every sin, and save our souls, O Good One!]
The Trisagion: Holy God, holy Mighty, holy Immortal, have mercy on us (three times, everyone making a bow at the waist each time).
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
O All-Holy Trinity, have mercy on us; O Lord, blot out our sins; O Master, pardon our iniquities; O Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities for Thy Name’s sake.
Lord, have mercy (three times).
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Our Father, Who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
For Thine is the Kingdom, and the Power and the Glory: of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto the ages of ages.
Amen. Lord, have mercy (twelve times)
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
O come, let us worship God our King. O come, let us worship and fall down before Christ our King and our God. O come, let us worship and fall down before Christ Himself, our King and our God.
@RPchristian
”The bible is clear that man was created in God’s image, and woman was created in the image of MAN. ”
Just as the human man is the carbon copy of God. So is woman a carbon copy of a carbon copy.
So although both images of God. Man resembles God more in relation to woman.
@RPchristian,
I give; I do not tithe, because there is no Biblical mandate for Christians to tithe.
I suggest you listen to John MacArthur’s two part sermon “God’s Plan for Giving”. It will give you a good handle on God’s actual instructions to Christians about giving.
https://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1302/gods-plan-for-giving-part-1
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1303/gods-plan-for-giving-part-2
BTW, giving and tithing are NOT synonyms. Once you break that false analogy in your mind, it becomes easy to understand the difference between giving and tithing and the New Covenant and the Old Covenant.
“Mofo says: Apart from the instrumentation and the affected drawls, radio country is indistinguishable from radio pop.”
Two things going on here.
1) Country music has always had a rock and roll side. Listen to any of the “honky tonk” musicians of the 1950’s (such and Hank Williams) and you’ll hear it. Rock and roll is essentially a blending of 1940’s/’50’s country music and R&B.
2) Modern pop music has drifted so far into rap, etc… that it has alienated a large percentage of music listeners. It’s not surprising that oldies rock stations (’60’s, ’70’s, & ’80’s) are flourishing. Country stepped in in the late 1980’s to fill part of that void, by creating more crossover artists: part country, part rock and roll. It’s not surprising that country artists today sound more like the Eagles (a rock band) than Conway Twitty.
Yes southern culture, while it is manly is overly romantic. And country music is basically southern. The south being in the bible belt, southern culture and religion get more than a little mixed up.
It’s interesting dance to a song that has many hiding meanings.
When Rolling Stone has more discernment than America’s “Pastors*” can judgement be far behind?
In other news Stephen Kendrick is hitching his wagon to a women’s prayer revival initiative kicking off on September 23. Maybe he will be going by Stephanie by then?
*that’s no sheepdog………..
http://www.truewoman16.com/cry-out/
I hope that they pray for and receive the gift of repentance. How come their inclusion of woman worshipers like Kendrick make me think this won’t be allowed to happen?
It is very difficult for me to understand men who have the need to pedestalize women in this way; it was not part of my up bringing, and it is not something I felt inclined to do personally. I didn’t even know men behaved this way until I got old enough to start paying attention to people’s relationships, but I began to realize it is very common behavior; especially among White and Asian populations. Is this wife/girlfriend worship a learned trait? Is it genetic? You very rarely see it in Negro/PacificIsland/NativeAmerican/Hispanic/Latino populations, even if those populations are living closely among Whites and Asians. The wife worship thing is also particularly strong with southern White men, as I see it regularly.
@infowarrior1
I love it. Is that orthodox liturgy? Maybe I need to find an orthodox church. My wife would probably hate it at first, but maybe that’s the point.
True woman indeed
My Church by Maren Morris, these lyrics are a nice bookend to what the boyz did.
https://www.google.com/search?q=my+church+lyrics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
I wrote a country song dedicated to females too. It goes like this, “fetch my socks.”
RPC,
So far as I could tell, there was no promise of blessing attached with giving my 10% to a pastor or televangelist. But there were two promises I did find:
I’ll bless those who bless you, but I’ll curse the one who curses you. – Genesis 12:3
Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward them for what they have done. – Proverbs 19:17
I killed two birds with one stone and began donating my tithe to an organization that helps needy Jews in the former Soviet Union, and I can honestly say that God came through.
@Billy S
What passage are you referring to that contradicts Paul’s ‘we worked while we were among you’?
In terms of your suggested economical ethics (or whatever you want to call it), the concept of mooching only applies if the product is ‘as advertised’. If we operate from the premise that a church housing fellowship in the worship of God deserves compensation for that service, then the opposite is also true, a church that receives tithes owes it’s membership fellowship in the worship of God… or it too is mooching.
I don’t belong to any specific church though, as it is hard to find a church that as an entity embraces the faith over the bureaucracy. If they don’t pursue the faith, what’s the point of going? Many here have made the compelling argument that we should attend to correct the course of the church and fight the downhill slide. But if you attend a church for that purpose, a meek tithe seems a better idea than a generous one. A church isn’t likely to get healthy when the opportunity for gluttony is there.
In my teens and 20s I was very Blue Pill Romantic. I sought an Ideal Woman to worship. I had in mind this fantasy of a Ms. Perfect — yes, Ms. — that I would someday meet. Smart, brave, funny, beautiful, sharing all my political views, and loyal-oh-so-loyal. An Ideal Woman who would love me as much as I would love and worship her.
Naturally, I never found her. I came across many women far from my Ideal. Upon a few women I projected my idealized fantasy image, served them, and was friend zoned.
Yes, I can understand men who idealize and worship women. Especially in their youth. There’s this notion that women are more romantic than are men, but I think the reverse might be true.
Tom,
That was to one group of specific people, not every person he visited in his entire ministry.
These both refer to those working in the ministry being deserving of being supported in the ministry. Jesus had noted this before.
You then noted:
The context was someone’s main church, not a one-time or limited number of visits. You know what the product is if you go several times. Would you go to a restaurant with poor food repeatedly and then refuse to pay after you used their food? Stop going if it is that bad.
Then why are you replying? My comments would not apply to you.
You are completely naive if you think any human endeavor can completely avoid bureaucratic overhead. This can be optimized, but not eliminated. Expecting utopia on this earth is not a productive expectation.
I share that view, though I expect I am a lot more flexible in that than you are. I know my beliefs are not perfect, so I don’t expect exact alignment with everything, just with many.
A tithe would be 10% as noted above. No meek or strong aspect. It is either a tenth or it is not. The higher percentage noted above had to do with yearly tithes and one that was once every 3 years, kind of 2 1/3 tithes in reality, but that was limited to the Law.
I find modern teaching on tithing to be light since both NT mentions of it (by Jesus and in Hebrews) were talking about how things worked under the Jewish system, not tithing in the Christian Church. References prior to the Law ignore that those were one time actions, not an ongoing action. We can find no evidence Abraham sent tithes to Melchizedek on a regular basis, for example. Building a doctrine of regular tithing on that lacks rigor.
That said, many today use this as an excuse to give very little. Someone who spends far more on their own pleasures than they give to their church and other things of the Lord is very misguided. How many pay more for their cable TV bill than they give to the church they do attend regularly? What about giving to any Christian work?
Where your treasure goes shows where you heart is, something all of us could do to evaluate regularly.
You must subscribe to the “you keep them humble Lord, I will help keep them poor” philosophy. That is stupid. We live in a world with plenty of chances for some form of gluttony. That will only go away when we are all transformed.
The key instead is to find a church you can connect with and be an important part of. Use that to impact change onto those who you relate with, but don’t justify your own selfishness with your money with some high sounding goals. What gets your own money outside of you?
Completely side topic, but I would welcome thoughts on content for a book/booklet on “Reasons why men aren’t coming to church” or something like that. I want to start working on that and a few other ideas soon. I know I need to do my own research and I expect to expose it here for ridicule when the first cut is done, but any input could be worthwhile.
More whining from working moms: http://theweek.com/articles/627821/ugly-secret-working-moms
The article, of course, emphasizes that women bear zero blame for their woes. It’s society’s fault for not addressing their needs.
Here is the YouTube video of H.O.L.Y.:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
If you view the church as a business, an a seperate corporate institutional entity; then of course ‘tithing’ or whatever you want to call it intuitively makes sense. Tithe, payment for ‘church service’ rendered.
But thats not how the NT church operated. It was a community, not a corporation. Giving was primarily to the poor, and that done privately. Workers were also supported, likely privately. The only time collections were mentioned was supporting poor, widows, and apostles.
Lastly a note about financial support for overseas missions; be careful! A lot of this support goes to ‘education’ and ‘helping women’. Which really just boils down to money used to destroy their culture and the family through the advance of feminism via the schools. And how much of that which actually goes to helping the poor is actually tearing down families and creating orphans by supporting single mothers who kick out dad?
Completely side topic, but I would welcome thoughts on content for a book/booklet on “Reasons why men aren’t coming to church” or something like that. I want to start working on that and a few other ideas soon. I know I need to do my own research and I expect to expose it here for ridicule when the first cut is done, but any input could be worthwhile.
Consider starting with Murrow’s book Why Men Hate Going To Church
or Podles The Church Impotent: the Feminization of Christianity.
Here’s Murrow’s site.
http://churchformen.com/men-and-church/why-do-men-hate-going-to-church/
@BillyS, David Murrow wrote a book called “Why Men Hate Going to Church”. Leon Podles “The Church Impotent” is another good back that’s related: http://www.podles.org/church-impotent.htm
RPL,
I checked out that link. Even though I am new to the scene, I immediately recognized this as the women worshiping women version of what this blog post was about.
The article practically summarizes itself with lines like: “super-awesome family-plus-career bounty that we’re supposed to be so grateful for.” A bitter, non-admission of what feminism has done for her.
The heroine of this story is a woman described as , “a working mother of three…with a reliable spouse”. Based on this quote – “What she can’t abide is anyone who screams “entitlement!” at modern women who dare to dream of a career” – I looked up her book and blog. She notes she has a masters degree in journalism from UC Berkeley. She was interviewed by a WP reporter in 2013.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/on-parenting/maxed-out-author-katrina-alcorn-talks-about-struggles-juggling-work-home-responsibilities/2013/09/10/3a1afcbe-10eb-11e3-b4cb-fd7ce041d814_story.html
A quote from that interview seems to prove your point:
“The women in my life are really capable, smart, hardworking and dedicated to their families. They don’t really need advice. Their employers need advice, their co-workers need advice, the policymakers need advice. We need to change the conversation so it’s not about what women are doing, but what society is doing.”
@BillyS: Have you read Why Men Hate Going to Church by David Murrow?
Sorry about the repeat. Clearly a lot of people had the same thought. The essence of Murrow’s diagnosis is, as I understand it, that what progressives dismiss as fear of ‘cooties’ is more accurately described as let-her-handle-it-itis. That is, men are actually quite happy to check out of roles in which women prove themselves capable. But parallel with that, when women try to assume leadership roles it’s generally without a deep understanding of male psychology, and thus the men trickle out as the female leaders fail to grasp the principles of male motivation.
seventiesjason@ June 25, 2016 at 3:13 pm:
“I live in the great San Joaquin Valley of California (Fresno)!”
Cool. Your water slide parks are next on my Enjoy the Decline list after the 4th.
…
RPchristian @ 4:38 pm:
“Considering how rampant this garbage is in the church, including my own, what are you guys doing with your tithe?”
I used to directly fund gun rights, disaster relief and third-party politics but SJW convergence kept burning me even there. My spare money now gets spent on myself, not because I’m selfish but because I’ve been betrayed at every turn and effort pushing back.
Okay. If God wants me to go outside and play instead of sacrificing myself saving the world then I’ll go outside and play. Got no tears to waste on being forced to enjoy life.
BillyS says: …I would welcome thoughts on content for a book/booklet on “Reasons why men aren’t coming to church”…”
Look up “The Dones”.
It describes people who are “done” with institutionalized church, but “not done” with Christianity. It has a lot of parallels to MGTOW. Specifically, in how people outside the movement misinterpret the motivations of those inside the movement.
Dones: They can no longer tolerate the poor doctrine being taught from the pulpit, or they believe the modern institution of church has veered away from God’s plan for his church—the body of Christ.
Critics of the Dones: Dones are fatigued with the routine; they don’t feel they get anything out of going to church and don’t feel church is relevant to them today, so we need to make church more exciting and relevant to current society to get them back.
Like MGTOW critics, critics of the Dones either can’t see (or are willfully blind to) the underlying reasons.
BTW, Dones is–like MGTOW–a primarily male movement.
I have read Murrow’s book, but it lacks many red pill I nights in my view. I want something even more direct, possibly because of my own challenges in the area.
This will sound frivolous, but I am being honest and sincere:
The Western Church destroyed itself when it stopped praying in Latin every week.
I do not know of any church that still does the Latin Mass regularly. Therefore I have no particular hope for the survival of the Western Church.
The Orthodox might survive in Russia, but the West needs to return to Latin, badly, to prevent the conquest of the church by cover versions of Bob Dylan songs.
Sadly, I do not think the West is going to return to Latin.
@BillyS, David Murrow wrote a book called “Why Men Hate Going to Church”.
I don’t agree with Murrow. While he is right that modern churches have become feminized, his solution–to make church more masculine–is (imho) wrong.
The problem with a feminized church is it is disconnected from God and the scriptures. But, there’s nothing in Murrow’s vision of a more masculine (or should I say macho) church that is any more scriptural. Men’s retreats and singing more more manly songs is not the answer.
Murrow has made the “seeker driven” church mistake: if we can only make church more culturally relevant (in this case culturally relevant to men) we can draw in more people. But, a church can be culturally relevant and spiritually empty.
Hugh Prestwood wrote one of my favorite country songs, so I looked him up. Turns out he is a red-pilled song writer. His theory is that country music now caters to a young women’s audience.
https://sites.google.com/site/hughprestwoodblog/music-biz-demographics-fantasy
The site is mildly NSFW.
I think Mel Gibson funded a Catholic Church in Malibu that does the Latin mass.
Idolatry and blasphemy. Why doesn’t it gel with these guys that they are breaking a lot of Commandments with this one?
@otto
I’ve seen several churches that attempted to ‘appeal to men’. But I’ve yet to see a single one that repented of worshiping women or didn’t try to eliminate the commands of scripture to women.
Hah! The early church did just fine without it. We need to return to what is written, not a mass that would not mean anything to most people.
====
As I noted on my tablet, thanks all for the Murrow book reference. I read it a while back, but I do not believe he has all the right details. I will pull together what I can and give a chance for critiques here. I am sure I will get plenty, including being called names!
Dalrock has lots of great stuff to mine as well.
There’s certainly plenty of discussion to be had as to what is the most correct course for engaging men in the church. But it’s fair enough to say that Murrow has the general truth covered: that women have a degree of inclination to follow men’s leadership, but the converse is not at all true, so therefore, men must be the primary focus if the church or any other organization aims to keep the membership of both sexes.
Although I’d have to say, what put me off was the feeling of being an inconvenient anomaly. As a college dropout, all I’m good for is being shanghaied into menial tasks. At thirty, I’m not too old to flirt with the college students, but I am too poor. Nobody seemed to care about helping me attain the ability to provide for a family; I have had to go on purely internal motivation to attain the necessary skill set, and I have to say I haven’t done too well. The church is all too ready to put on a finger-wagging sermon on the evils of pornography, but not lift that same finger to help a young man on the path to getting the real thing the right way.
The Western Church destroyed itself when it stopped praying in Latin every week.
Because Jesus spoke Latin, right?
@BillyS
The accusation always is selfishness, isn’t it? Instead of qualifying why the product is worthy of being bought, you have to guilt someone into buying it. The problem lies there. There are good reasons not to give money that have nothing to do with selfishness. I actually don’t have a cable bill, and I imagine I live more meekly than your average mega-church preacher.
The passages you cited speak to actual work being done. Some preachers actually do their work, and deserve to be paid. Some do not and should not. The latter, when they insist on receiving a tithe anyways, ‘because… well just because’ are misers in their work, and should expect their pay to reflect it. It is selfish of them to expect otherwise. There is no ‘automatic’ payment simply because someone shows up to collect it, that’s what Paul is speaking to. That’s the way the Sanhedrin ran the show, but that’s not the way God wants it run.
As to churches in general, and why men attend less:
1) Too many churches revise their theology and revise it again for the sake of being ‘hip’. No one can keep up with fashion, and trying to will inevitably catch one being more unfashionable on occasion than if they’d simply stayed true to who they were.
1a) Corollary to that, the Church undermines it’s authority in the process. Following contemporary culture means pursuing a moving point, no one can be an authority on something that is not constant. Men don’t go to Church for something that they can do better themselves, by which I mean, if the Church is not an authority, but only fashionable, there’s no point in going. A man can pursue the fixed point of God better than a church can chase fashion.
2) The entitlement instead of responsibility from church leaders wears thin with men. For example, on this tithe question, the message from church leaders should not be ‘gimme.’ The message should be, ‘we want to do this with the money, please give us the means.’ Men already deal with plenty of entitled parties in their day to day lives, if a church is only another one of those, most aren’t going to be interested.
3) More abstractly, when I attend a church, I’m not there to hear that I can do no wrong, but to be encouraged to do right. Moral relativism seems to have taken over not only the Protestant faiths(saying salvation is independent of actions isn’t very far philosophically from saying nothing is a sin), but the Catholic faith as well given the current Pope. Churches that are about the feel goods and not about aspiring to be a better servant of God feel false to me, and I imagine they feel false to most men.
3a) Corollary to that, being brought up Catholic, I find the attempts to make church an entertainment spectacle to also ring a bit false to the purpose of attending church. I’ve only seen it at Protestant churches I’ve visited, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the trying-to-be-hip Pope won’t be trying to bring about the same in Catholic churches soon enough. What tithes those churches get might go a little bit farther if they weren’t spending it out on sound systems, concert lights, etc.
Latin is important because Jesus preached in Latin and the New Testament was originally written in Latin.
/sarcasm off
Nashville is a city saturated with pagan symbolism and practices. That symbolism has been there from it’s inception, just like Washington D.C. How anyone ever equated country music with virtue is a sign of how good the Entertainment Industry’s programming is. It should surprise no one when songs come out of there extolling the virtues of the Goddess Cult.
for ahlstar, baby = bathwater, lol
Tom,
Any Christian should be giving regularly to God’s Kingdom and doing something themselves to advance that Kingdom.
Note that I did not indicate any specific target, but your arguments are used by many to do nothing and only take care of themselves. Even the poorest in this country (and many others for that matter) are far richer than most of those living throughout history, so everyone can do something. Making excuses for doing nothing is quite selfish and goes against what is Written.
You and anyone else are free to do that, but don’t wrap it with a cloak of goodness because some or even many leaders in churches do not live up to the standards you set.
Perhaps you are one of the few that are just squeaking by, but the fact you have time to read and post here would indicate that is not likely.
Giving is an attitude, as was noted earlier. Deciding everything is bad and keeping it all for yourself (the generic “you” here) may sound like a righteous action, but falls far short of clear Biblical direction.
Those who squeal when this is said are likely in the area that got covered.
Doing what is right in our own eyes always leads to trouble.
Praying in Latin is not intrinsically better than praying in the vernacular, but it acts to keep the worship fundamentally other-directed: oriented toward God instead of ourselves. It’s hard for narcissist pastors to substitute contemporary fashion in place of the church’s theology, when the liturgy enforces humility upon them by demanding they address God in the same words as the saints have for a thousand years. It’s not the Latin language in particular: the same can be said of Old Slavonic or of hieratic English (cf. the Anglican Ordinariate liturgies approved by Benedict XVI). The main thing is, when the act of worship is set apart as a thing not to be monkeyed with by the present generation, more people take it seriously as worship and not as consumer entertainment.
If you want to witness how a nascent feminist rebellion gets started within a denomination; check out the recent writings of Amiee Byrd over at the “Mortification of spin” website. She’s OPC. but the site is run by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. Very sad. I don’t have a Facebook account so I can’t comment or contact her to openly challenge it or rebuke. I’d say that makes her fair game for scrutiny on Dalrock.
Byrd appears to be one of those attacking the CBMW from the feminist side. It is pretty funny to read accusations that CBMW is pushing (gasp – cluth pearls – gasp) Patriarchy. Doubly so after looking up the OPC church since it is supposed to be male-only leadership.
Cursory examination: Aimee Byrd is a conservative feminist attacking the CBMW for not being feminist enough. But perhaps she’s just another whining attention whore?
Now she wants to redefine the nature of the trinity in order to minimise what it teaches about submission. If her ideas catch fire, it won’t just be orthodox Presbyterians who suffer. Amiee Byrd and her cuck partners in crime at MOS could infect all of Christendom. After all the early church suffered with the Trinitarian debate; it just shows the selfish wrecklessness of feminists. I’ve thought about starting a blog but we don’t need more of them; we need more people to read the established ones. That’s why I hope Dalrock could do us all a solid and look into this nonsense and at least get it out into red pill land before more damage is done. I know this is a naked appeal for help, but that’s why I feel the manosphere is here: to point out that which flies under the radar before it can hollow out our institutions. We need our own call out culture, and frankly don’t have the gifts to make it happen.
I meant to say
“I don’t have the gifts to make it happen….
“…Tyler Hubbard kicked off the prayer about a woman so perfect she turns dark into light and reminds him of a baptism they’re together. The mix of Christian imagery and hooking up is most likely a little over-the-line for devoutly religious fans (“Let me lay you down, give it to ya / Get you singing babe, hallelujah”)”
well done right, sex is a spiritual experience.
Brad S,
You do indicate a specific target, in using the adjective ‘selfishness’.
Your argument, as I am reading it, is that there are only two alternatives, indulging someone else’s selfishness, or becoming myself selfish. But if those are the only alternates, then there is no good that can be done either way. That’s where your argument falls down. You cannot argue the good that would somehow be done by supporting churches that do not do their duty. You can only try to distract away from the failure of those churches by name calling.
Where I have listed any number of reasons that one should not give to a failing church, You have yet to provide one good reason. You can only say that failing is to be expected, and then make baseless accusations against my character and hope to distract from the truth in my argument. As if name calling would suddenly inspire me to take money put towards doing actual good and instead apply it to buying pearls for the swine.
I made no such claim Tom.
You can self righteously claim to keep your money from the unworthy all you wish. I just noted you should give to the Work of the Lord. I did not specify any specific church or organization.
It surely is among the right people (a monogamous married couple who believes in the tenets of the Catholic church, for example).
I guess when I listen to the song, I understand the alarm by believers is rooted in its ambiguity. For all we know, the singer is talking about banging a tranny hooker at a sleazy motel just off the interstate, on his way to a sales conference in Des Moines. His faithful wife is at home, raising his kids.
Little cleo @ June 28, 2016 at 2:12 pm:
“Now she wants to redefine the nature of the trinity in order to minimise what it teaches about submission… That’s why I hope Dalrock could do us all a solid and look into this nonsense and at least get it out into red pill land before more damage is done.”
I can help with the theology if you can be more specific. John 14:26, 1 John 4:1-6 and 2 Thess. 2:13-15 are often good starting points for confronting misrepresentations of the Holy Spirit, assuming that’s the issue. When fools look to the HS, it’s usually to bypass inconvenient Scripture, but we worship in spirit AND in truth. (John 4:23-24) That short-circuits a lot of the mystical mumbo-jumbo.
…
Daily Llama @ June 28, 2016 at 4:04 pm
“well done right, sex is a spiritual experience.”
Just physical. Very pleasant, motivating and consequential to be sure but we’re told sex will be replaced by something better on the other side of death. Like all of marriage, it’s only a foreshadow of the real thing.
I listen to a couple of hours of country radio today and the biggest thing I noticed is a lack of cheating or troubled relationship songs. This used to be the staple of country music lyrics and now it’s apparently taboo. What I heard today was an endless stream of “I’m in the truck, out in the country with my girl and everything is perfect” type songs. If anything the sad songs of yesterday had to be more relateable than these “living the country dream with my girl” themes that dominate today.
♪♫ It brayks mah heart there’s no more sad songs on thuh ray-deyo ♪♫
♪♫ ‘Twuz just lahst year, each wun brought me near ta teyurz ♪♫
♪♫ Ain’t no moar songs ‘baht how she left me foar mah best friend ♪♫
♪♫ An’ no more tunes relatin’ to row-mantick fearz ♪♫
♪♫ It brayks mah heart there’s no sad songs on thuh ray-deyo ♪♫
♪♫ Seems to me, Lord, I ain’t hear one in yearz. ♪♫
I prefer, “Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.” Or perhaps the parable of talents. They are reasons to do good when you have the opportunity to do so. So long as we don’t say there is only one good place for one’s generosity to go.
That is what I was saying Tom. I can’t imagine why people would regularly go to a place they despise as well, so I can’t see why it is at all logical to say you won’t give to your church.
Perhaps others are not willing to walk out their beliefs as much as I would. I don’t think I am that much of a special snowflake though, so it likely involves more.
Nevertheless, just vie to someplace/something that advances His Kingdom. You can figure out what/where that is.
I think we are in agreement on that if I read your last reply correctly.
Sorry… I wasn’t clear. I don’t attend a church. I’ve visited many, but to my frustration haven’t found one that pursues God before all other things. I agree that if you find a Church worth attending you should give, and participate in the end with more than just money for that matter. And if you don’t find that, you have to find other ways to give and to do good.
My interpretation of the parable of talents, is that we must gain some interest for God in gratitude for being blessed with life. Some people do a lot, some do a little, but all are better than the one who does nothing with that blessing. I think we agree there, there was just some misunderstanding on my part about what you were defining as doing good.
This is a HUGE stretch — but could this song be possibly interpreted as in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary. (Realizing full well this could set off a firestorm of hatred for the Catholic doctrines on the Blessed Virgin Mary and thus a firestorm of anti-Catholicism….) It’s a stupid and mindless song just like everything else that is on the radio these days, but just a possibility.
But, then again, in our house we don’t listen to country music or any music other than classical or Gregorian Chant or hymns.
It just seemed that this might be a very slight and albeit VERY remote possibility.
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Dalrock, my wife and I went down a rabbit trail about country music and we talked about your review of this song by Florida Georgia Line. So researching if people ever actually criticized this song, found a link to a story from 2013 on cmt.com where the duo got their feet wet in music by leading worship at their local church and describe their concerts as a worship experience. Gives new perspective to their anthem of wife worship. Here’s the link:
http://www.cmt.com/news/1716679/florida-georgia-line-say-concerts-feel-like-worship/