As I explained in part one, men stepping up is a well loved refrain with complementarians and other conservative Christians. It is a brilliantly deceptive term, because the objective is to appear to be fighting our feminist culture while taking great care not to do anything which would upset the feminist status quo. This is accomplished by pretending that feminists aren’t in the final mopping up stage of the culture wars, and instead complaining about a sudden and mysterious change in men.
The danger of course to exhorting men to man up is that they might actually do so. This would defeat the whole purpose. For this reason Christian leaders who go beyond the steps described in part 1 need to clearly communicate that their program is not a threat to women in feminist rebellion.
Dennis Rainey is the President, CEO and Co-founder of FamilyLife. Rainey is also a Board of Reference member of the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW). Rainey is all about men stepping up. In fact, he has even trademarked the term Stepping Up®, as it is the title of the video series and accompanying book FamilyLife sells:
Calling Men to Courageous Manhood
Today, more than ever, the world needs godly men. Men who will step up and courageously lead at home, at church, at work, and in their communities. That’s the message of Stepping Up. In a world where too many men are shrinking back, Stepping Up gives men vision and tools to live godly, courageous lives.
In August of 2013 I did a post on one of the youtube videos FamilyLife used to advertise Stepping Up®. As I noted at the time, the advertisement was brilliantly crafted to seem traditional while reinforcing the feminist status quo:
…the video features a thoroughly broken husband being harangued by his ballbusting wife. For a moment he weakly pushes back, but then she threatens to move out and he submits to her authority. Those who support traditional marriage are no doubt encouraged by this exchange and the larger message of the video, assuming this video series is secretly about returning to the biblical instruction on headship and submission. If their wife gives the ok, they can’t wait to attend the sessions!
This message is so ridiculous many of my readers understandably will struggle to believe that is is the case, especially since the video I was describing has since been removed from YouTube. Fortunately, while the video has been memory holed, another promotion for Stepping Up® is still available on the web. In January of 2013 Rainey did a segment in his radio program titled Encouraging Our Guys (audio, transcript). The introduction to the segment makes it sound like it will be promoting the biblical view, just like the blurb on the page selling the video:
Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 8th . Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I’m Bob Lepine. We’re going to talk today about men being men and about how women can help them be the men God wants them to be.
Stay tuned.
After the break, Bob explains that churches around the country will be screening Stepping Up® the Saturday before Super-bowl Sunday. This creates a dilemma for the head of the household; how should she manage her husband’s day? Should she send him to Stepping Up®, or should she occupy his time with chores around the house?
Bob: So, I‟m thinking of a wife who is planning for that weekend. She’s got the option of either her husband, on Saturday, doing all the projects around the house so that he can watch the game on Sunday; or she can send him to the Stepping Up® Super Saturday event, down at the church, that’s happening in their community. We’ve got hundreds of churches that are participating in this; but she’s not going to get any “Honey, do” lists done that day. What would your counsel to her be, Dennis?
Dennis: Give up the “Honey, do” list for a day.
Rainey explains that a wife should see this as an investment. If she sends her husband to Stepping Up® it will pay dividends for her in the future, as it will very likely make her husband more like she wants him to be:
I‟m actually encouraging you, as a wife, to look beyond the “Honey, do” list and beyond to making an investment in your husband‟s life—to encourage him, not discourage him— but encourage him to become the man God made him to be. If you send him down to the Stepping Up Super Saturday event—I can‟t guarantee this because he’s got a choice—he’s got a real choice, and some guys don’t make it; but a lot will.
Next Rainey introduces their guest for the segment, Kenny Luck:
Kenny Luck joins us. He’s the Men’s Pastor at Saddleback Church. He‟s
written a book called Sleeping Giant. He’s all over the issue of men stepping up.
Luck of course reinforces the importance of the head of the household sending her husband to the Stepping Up® event, because Stepping Up® and similar programs are designed to make her husband do what she nags him to do:
Kenny: I was just saying—the hall pass—“Ladies, here’s the deal. When you do give permission for a desired activity—but more importantly, when you encourage your man to take ownership of his life—spiritually, relationally, maritally— in the context of other men, that’s when you get a solid result versus hinting, hoping, nagging. It’s just something where he feels that he needs to make that decision on his own—in consideration of you—but in the presence of other men, as an individual man. It‟s that ownership-thing, where it is: „This is my decision, and I want to own it—apart from being in your presence—even though I love you—and apart from being connected to you as a husband and father, who has many shortcomings—I want to make this decision myself.‟”
See Also: Rainey understands his target audience.
Kenny: I was just saying—the hall pass—“Ladies, here’s the deal. When you do give permission for a desired activity
They don’t even try to hide it. Just fluff it with some other words so that men can self delude.
@ Anonymous Reader
I was about to say the same thing. The message is clear; married men have no say in the matter. It’s a negotiation between the wife and the pastor.
Stay free, my friends.
Pingback: Step up, so they don’t have to (part 2). | @the_arv
“Ladies, here’s the deal. When you do give permission for a desired activity—but more importantly, when you encourage your man to take ownership of his life”
Goodness gracious. I’m not often speechless, but that one just did me in.
The part about her giving permission is priceless, though, ain’t it?
Goodness gracious. Bless their hearts. Oh, my.
As a man I get FAR more support from the secular MGTOW community than I do from these “Christian” churches. What a bunch of worthless cowards. The funny part is that these pussy beggars are only going to make MGTOW grow with no end in sight. lol.
Pingback: Step up, so they don’t have to (part 2). - Top
I wish more of these pastorbators and associated cucks could see these articles. It still appears that they don’t even know that someone is exposing them.
I’m surprised you left off the quote from the interview about men being like labradors and how she needs to throw the tennis ball for him every now and then.
Rainey explains that a wife should see this as an investment. If she sends her husband to Stepping Up® it will pay dividends for her in the future, as it will very likely make her husband more like she wants him to be
Ha. After seeing both this and that bit you featured from Sheila Gregoire in the last post, it seems that the message Dennis Rainey wants to send to wives is this:
I don’t see it. She has to give him permission to take ownership of his life. Why would she do that? It’s currently owned by her or he wouldn’t need her permission. If she permits him to own his life she will lose power, and there is no guarantee he won’t start using some of his life for purposes other than hers. He might start doing stuff God wants him to do or any other crazy thing might happen.
She’s not going to give him permission. Too risky.
Wives, don’t try to change your husband’s behavior by busting his balls. Instead, let US bust his balls for you!
The church will sponsor a mission to attach men’s balls to their wives…it’s truly charity! Since churchian women resemble hyenas, it will be perfect.
Dalrock… I saw it on Turd Flinging Monkey… have your fun at it! Ps: I love your blog!
One of the best of the manosphere, for sure!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4491914/Manchester-woman-says-good-looking-love.html
OT, but topical for the blog:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/pastor-saeed-abedinis-divorce-finalized-amid-adultery-conspiracy-allegations-180289/
Saeed Abedini’s divorce from Naghmeh was finalized last month. But it appears that the Christian community which once championed him has tossed him under the bus.
Court records are sealed, but Saeed says Naghmeh accused him of adultery. Otherwise, he tells the usual story of his ex wife using the court process to her advantage. She accused him of abuse. She got the kids. She’s keeping the kids from Saeed. The court won’t let him have overnight visitation. It’s all a mess.
@Lost Patrol
She will, because she knows the talk of men being men and leading, etc. is a sham.
Haiku time:
Real Men step up
On a high cliff to perform
No water in lake
…
Jim @ 12:49 pm:
As a man I get FAR more support from the secular MGTOW community than I do from these “Christian” churches.
It’s hard to find a Christian MGTOW source for some reason. All the big names are quite atheistic.
Pingback: Step up, so they don’t have to (part 1). | Dalrock
This should be parody, but it isn’t. The old men, the elders, of the churches live out this life. They do what their wives tell them. If he wants to do something else, he hides it from her, and expects the other men to help him hide. In their midst nothing but full-throated praise should be uttered of a wife. They do not know how to respond otherwise.
Gunner Q said ..
[i]It’s hard to find a Christian MGTOW source for some reason. All the big names are quite atheistic.[/i]
Though it might seem so .. ALL MGTOW are self-leaders and require NO centralized orginizational input .. why would you need a single or multiple sources for validation?
I don’t. There is nothing un-biblical about being Un-Married. GOD is my authority.
It could be 1)
As for most MGTOW specialists (e.g. on the interwebz) .. this seems spot on with most young adults when they leave home don’t darken the entrance of the church.
They obviously got the message while still attending with their parents .. the current itching ear church is a man’s enemy.
Or it could be 2)
I have noticed a growing number of self-professed MGTOW / PUA types .. I wonder if it’s to get more clicks. This blending is no accident.
It’s important to recall ..
Why I think most MGTOW are bad mouthed .. they don’t buy products (e.g. books / take orders ((ie MRA types)) / etc) / spend money on worthless drivel. Which is how most of the MRA / self help / PUA make a living.
So .. in the end .. I think you will see more of these groups claim to be MGTOW to sell their product (e.g. books / build their brand) .. like Paul from Avoice for Men .. who was against MGTOW .. till he found out he he could claim to be the leader of MGTOW. Curious indeed.
Why all of this is .. I don’t care .. it’s just good to see men taking ownership of their future and having resources to use .. if only for entertainment purposes.
My God, how completely pussified the modern Church has become. So sad. How many misguided men are trying to follow such advice?
I wont lie, I would actually sign up for one of these “Men’s” weekends just so I could take notes on the mindset of the men who would attend such a thing. It would be an education in the Blue Pill, feminine primary conditioning that, even sans women, is perpetuated by Blue Pill Pastors.
There is no presumption of Frame for men in contemporary Christian marriages. It is all liability, accountability and responsibility for men with zero presumption of authority or headship. The wife is the head in the marriage – she’s got the pussy, she makes the rules – and there’s not even an afterthought as to a husband controlling frame. Husbands are just another child for a mother to direct. There’s no discussion, no thought of anything that might hint at a husband’s authority and they only recognize the existence of men in terms of how he affects his wife’s life.
As I’ve said before, there is nothing for men in the modern church that has any appeal. Even “men’s getaway” retreats (in the most literal of terms) are just excuses to reeducate and affirm in them their wives’ station in their lives. Why would any unchurched man with an iota of self-import find anything appealing about joining a modern Christian church?
My God, how completely pussified the modern Church has become
Yes, but for the record this same stuff was going on at FLT 20 years ago. I had a mentor back then who ridiculed the exact same thing.
Today’s young adults and young parents are at least 3 generations into this teaching.
deti, the whole Saeed / Nagmah story has gone just as most androsphere men predicted or would have predicted. Including the Churchians who were happy to support him in jail in Iran but who turned away as soon as his estranged wife told terrible tales.
In an abstract way, this tragedy just demonstrates the predictive power of the red pill /glasses. Perhaps it could be used to demonstrate to tradcoms just how wrong they are. Not sure if that would make any difference.
@Lost Patrol
Wifey gives up no power in issuing a hall pass. Permission is not power or authority, it is an exercise of power / authority.
Well, the one benefit, I suppose, is that this kind of rhetoric about permission and so on brings these guys out of the closet. Not that this will matter much to them, as this seems to be mostly cruise control/second nature at this point, but for those who have their eyes at least halfway open it can be a hat-tip of sorts.
In other news, the cheerleading for female-centric open marriages in the mainstream media continues apace. See: https://nyti.ms/2pA4UVk
Money quote (among many):
Conventional wisdom has it that men are more likely than women to crave, even need, variety in their sex lives. But of the 25 couples I encountered, a majority of the relationships were opened at the initiation of the women; only in six cases had it been the men. Even when the decision was mutual, the woman was usually the more sexually active outside the marriage. A suburban married man on OkCupid told me he had yet to date anyone, in contrast to his wife, whom he called “an intimacy vampire.” There was a woman in Portland whose husband had lost interest in sex with anyone, not just her. A 36-year-old woman in Seattle said she opened her marriage after she heard about the concept from another young mom at her book club.
Perhaps the women in the couples I encountered were more willing to tell their stories because they did not fit into predictable unflattering stereotypes about the male sex drive. But it was nonetheless striking to hear so many wives risk so much on behalf of their sexual happiness.
Oh, wow! What a shocker, huh?
Mark my words, this cheerleading of open, institutionalized cuckoldry is going to get louder in the coming years.
I went to the Dennis Rainey Family Life website and found some videos about the problem of the “controlling husband.” I searched for “controlling wife” but found nothing but those same videos. So I went to “contact us” and asked them why that is. I don’t expect an answer, frankly, but it was fun just to ask the question.
*shrugs* The mindset of surrender you see in these men is the product of their larger society. You can’t really blame the losers. They get zero support from society, have no idols to emulate, and are hesitant in every direction they move.
Now if they had been part of a real patriarchy, they would probably act different. Of course, you could say they’d still be sheep, just patriarch sheep, but at least their romantic lives would have less suffering, and more zest.
What I find incredibly ironic about the state of men in the church is that when they are single and doing their own thing they are shamed and admonished for perpetuating adolescence. The AMOGing pastors tell them they’re sinning for not building their lives and identities around manning up and preparing to be a good husband and father. They are shamed for being kidults and then for not forgiving their wives-to-be party years indiscretions. They’re told to ‘grow up’ and to prove it by getting married after molding themselves into what women need him to be.
Then, once they are married, there is a never ending stream of shame for, again, not manning up. Even after he’s ‘done the right thing’ he’s still considered another child for his poor wife – the one whom he’d shown Christian forgiveness in ignoring her past – to be another mother for. Christian men are in a perpetual state of adolescence before and after marriage. And again, pastor AMOG uses that to also Game his own wife to prove his own adult-ness to allow him some kind of authority in spite of the maleness that makes him a perpetual adolescent.
Christian ‘men’ can’t win. And all the marriage or mens weekends are just profiteering enterprises based on a problem perpetuated by the church itself.
Pingback: Step up, so they don’t have to (part 2). | Reaction Times
Actually feeling nauseous reading this. The arrogance of it, openly reveling in the de facto state of slavery of married men. I’ve had to become the jackass, to finally claim my life and time. All while walking the razor’s edge of threatpoint. Since the kids are involved though, each month is just continue to run out the clock….
It’s called “damned if we do, damned if we don’t.” Pardon me if I choose “damned because I don’t.” It’s cheaper, for one thing.
The Overlords tell me I’m lazy
It’s my manhood that’s driving her crazy
If I take their advice, my dear wife is on ice
I’d rather be riding than driving Miss Daisy!
To enter a church is to enter a castration zone. Just go to the gym instead!
You’re much better off just reading the bible yourself or with a group of non castrated men than going into a church nowadays.
“…So, I‟m thinking of a wife who is planning for that weekend. She’s got the option of either her husband, on Saturday, doing all the projects around the house so that he can watch the game on Sunday; or she can send him to the Stepping Up® Super Saturday event, down at the church, that’s happening in their community …”
I read most of this post with my mouth hanging open in shock. I mean, I know that the Church is compromised and that married men are under attack, and everything that we talk about and discuss on this and other blogs such as Rollo’s. But maybe there was some part of me that wanted to believe that the system wasn’t completely screwed. In other words, I still had some faith that it wasn’t totally compromised.
Reading this post, the thing that amazes me the most is that the divorce rates aren’t higher than what they currently are. It is so completely alien to me that a wife would program her husband’s entire weekend and he has no say in the matter. It may as well be another species on another planet as far as I’m concerned.
The next thought I have is in regards to what you could do to break these men out of this. But I immediately realize that you can’t do anything. You can’t save a man from a trap of his own making and willing participation. It is insidious and evil.
“giving permission”
Hahhhahhhahhhhahhhhahhhhaaahhahahaahah!
No sugar tits, I need permission from no one!
“this cheerleading of open, institutionalized cuckoldry is going to get louder in the coming years.”
Yes. The argument to men is going to be:
“men are fortunate to be married to a woman who will have them, and who gave them their families. Because that’s what marriage really is – two or more people getting together to raise, provide for, and teach and train children. It’s not about sex. And besides, husbands, you don’t own your wives. You don’t own their sexuality. You don’t have a right to sex with your wives. They have rights to have sex with whomever they want, and you don’t have anything to say about it. You can have sex with other women and your wives can’t say anything about that. So it’s all fair.
“It doesn’t matter whether you’re the actual biological father of the child(ren) she has. All that matters is you’re married to their mom, and they’re your family. And that’s why you got married – to have a family. Not to have sex. So you married men need to embrace the new paradigm in which your wives are free to pursue sex with men outside the marriage, because sex is different from family and love and all that. Sex is unimportant – it’s like going to movies with friends or getting ice cream or hanging out with friends. Sex isn’t special or significant. It’s just something people do together. And people can do that with whomever they want. Embrace the new paradigm!”
@Novaseeker
From my reading of a certain cuckold/hotwife forum I gained the impression that marriage is ‘opened’ at the request of the man and after much coaxing and encouragement – that the women do it for the sake of their husband and not of their own volition. The men of course are not having sexual relations with any other woman and cannot anyway as they seem usually to be caged. Frankly, I doubt that there are enough willing men (Bulls to use the terminology) to go round and thus I am not perhaps as pessimistic as you that this will be the next big thing – women always want the best and only the best which means for them one at a time – and I don’t mean as a train. It was, was it not, the hope of the sexual revolution that men and women would glide effortlessly from one to another thus increasing the amount of sexual activity for all but that has not been how it worked out; in fact, delaying marriage (if it occurs at all) has reduced the amount of sexual activity. How many men boast of sexual activity that never took place! This should perhaps as with stolen valour (of which it is a variety) be made a criminal offence.
honeycomb @ 2:47 pm:
“It’s hard to find a Christian MGTOW source for some reason. All the big names are quite atheistic.”
“Though it might seem so .. ALL MGTOW are self-leaders and require NO centralized organizational input .. why would you need a single or multiple sources for validation?”
I want companionship, not validation. Married types don’t want to enjoy life and atheist MGTOWs tend to advocate ideas like male surrogacy and making women obsolete that are hard to tolerate. I despite women too but at least still realize that the way things are is not the way things should be or are doomed to be, and that makes for very different conversations and life-goals.
…
Adam @ 5:03 pm:
“The next thought I have is in regards to what you could do to break these men out of this.”
On this note, who wants to attend Gunner Q’s Life Attitude Adjustment Seminar? Next class is Sunday May 21 at the Calaveras County Fair, featuring the jumping frog finals back-to-back with a demolition derby. It’s free if you use your tithing money! Nothing adjusts your attitude like spending Pastor Cuck’s salary on carnival beer.
@AR
Wifey gives up no power in issuing a hall pass. Permission is not power or authority, it is an exercise of power / authority.
Yeah. Since the seminar guys were encouraging her to give him permission to “take ownership of his life” I thought it was comical. Because if they actually delivered her program would be wrecked. Of course they won’t deliver anything like that.
As Dalrock points out she already knows this.
She will, because she knows the talk of men being men and leading, etc. is a sham.
So she will exercise her authority and call the bluff (easy when you’ve seen everyone’s hand).
Best entertainment value would be she follows Rainey’s advice, gives him permission as well as “encourages him to become the man God made him to be” – then he refuses to go.
Geeze, deti, that’s a good start on a dystopian story ya got there. Almost too good, frankly.
Call it The Handyman’s Tale.
Lost Patrol
Best entertainment value would be she follows Rainey’s advice, gives him permission as well as “encourages him to become the man God made him to be” – then he
refuses to go.goes fishing instead.So…according to Rainey, a husband and father needs to be excused by his wife, given permission by his wife “to make that decision on his own.” The ultimate brown-nose, suck-up, betatude drivel I’ve ever heard.
Mind you, the entire western world is set up this way now, with men expected to defer to women, and suck up to women in all areas of life, not just marriage and “relationships”.
The man has “many shortcomings,” while women are faultless angels, no…Gods, worthy of worship at all times. What a f@$ked up mess.
I agree with most of the analysis presented so far in the comments. However, there is a secondary, but still an important reason why so many of of these whipped Christian men even agree to attend these weekend deals – when else would they ever socialize with other men? A lot of these guys turned the social calendars over to their wives when they got married. As a result, they seldom (if ever) see the friends they had before they got married. When do guys like this ever interact with other men they’re not related to besides work and their beta indoctrination church?
From my reading of a certain cuckold/hotwife forum I gained the impression that marriage is ‘opened’ at the request of the man and after much coaxing and encouragement – that the women do it for the sake of their husband and not of their own volition.
That’s not what this is, though. That’s a fetish, and fetishes are almost exclusively male. Of the couples the writer here interviewed, 19 of 25 couples the woman initiated the open relationship. Not because of a cuck fetish, but because she wanted to have sex outside the marriage herself, regardless of what her husband wanted. Something different from what you are reading about on cuck/HW fetish forums.
Gunner Q said .. “I want companionship, not validation. Married types don’t want to enjoy life and atheist MGTOWs tend to advocate ideas like male surrogacy and making women obsolete that are hard to tolerate. I despite women too but at least still realize that the way things are is not the way things should be or are doomed to be, and that makes for very different conversations and life-goals.”
Sigh .. I understand .. WE were trained to expect companionship from birth only by our women .. and WE got sold something completely different .. How WE rec’in’cile this makes us what WE are today.
For me .. Un-Married and childless because I will not yield any ground to these zell’uh’its (fem’dom inc).
If there wasn’t any question, at this point, it should be pretty clear: this is Heresy. These people aren’t Christians.
One thing churchians have done through their efforts, unwittingly of course, is graphically display to a single man the loss of personal freedom and independence he will experience if he marries. As a bachelor, I simply do not have to tolerate any of this stuff, and there is nothing that can compel me or any other bachelor to do so. The state, society, and institutions lose an incredible amount of leverage over a man when he opts out of marriage and children.
They have always presumed that “of course, men will eventually get married, so we can treat them however we want, and if they get uppity, we’ll just warn them they’ll die alone if they don’t do what we tell them.”
They’ve taken it for granted that men will marry come hell or high water.
They might be in for a surprise.
@Opus
Got to agree with Nova. Read the article, this is not some “hotwife” fantasy or fetish.
Sheer all the pretty words away and this is AF-Beta Cucks. The next step in a “blended family”.
Or as Rollo put it, open hypergamy. I expect to see it as a theme in TV shows (that I don’t watch)
and commercials (ditto) in the next two years. That’s 24 months. If that seems too fast, go use the bathroom at Target, any of the three, and get back to me.
I can see some of the more liberal minded churches like the Unitarians getting on board with this concept pretty easily. Once you accept “two mommies” then “one mommy and one visible daddy with another daddy or two on the side” isn’t that big of a leap.
The Question said ..
They have always presumed that “of course, men will eventually get married, so we can treat them however we want, and if they get uppity, we’ll just warn them they’ll die alone if they don’t do what we tell them.”
A lot of companies have hired married men (& in the old days required it) because of this (re: control / ie treat them how they want).
Today there is no married man requirement.
The companies hire Un-Married men like me and if we don’t like it we move on .. I have a job emergency fund and I never have trouble finding work. I don’t have to move kids or a wife and that makes life so much the easier.
Fast-forward to when un-married men just quit working at anything beyond necessary to live rates and all you have left are married men & women. Only one of those have a proven track record of sticking it out in the work-place when the going gets tough.
I can retire early .. and if they aren’t careful I could really engage in economic warfare against the Gubber’Mint & its parasites with their hands out. And so could every other un-married man. They just don’t thunk you will do it. If enough of us turned independent contractor and maximized our tax deductions we could work when-ever / where-ever / how-ever we wanted keeping our taxable income very small. And we could work as little / much as we needed.
The church has its hand out too .. and as mentioned by Gunner Q .. spend it on a worthwhile past-time .. like yourself .. because in this war .. it’s your own money that is being used against you.
@Looking Glass
The fruits are not in accord with their professed faith. Hence they are damned. Heresy is a fine line isn’t it just needs to be absolutely and resolutely wrong on certain important issues especially in regards to what is right and wrong.
I found this as an instructive example on how they are able to rationalize into such a heresy like mutual submission and how despite what 1 peter 3 says the greek for submission doesn’t really mean obedience:
http://christianthinktank.com/not2obey.html
And the inaccurate pro-feminist bible translation to aid that:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/cbmw.niv2011.2.pdf
Moi NickelMgtow:
Cherelle, in the article you linked, can’t get a man to take her seriously because she’s “too beautiful”. Maybe, but of 9 photos of her in the article, there’s not one smile. I suspect they figure out that she’s no fun and never call again.
TheLastCoyote,
“… when else would they ever socialize with other men?”
Misery needs company.
Pingback: Humbled by my lack of questioning. – Adam Piggott
@Gunner Q says:
“It’s hard to find a Christian MGTOW source for some reason. All the big names are quite atheistic.”
Roman Catholic priests are a form of MGTOW: celibate and focused on serving God rather than women. Too bad too many of them have been corrupted by the Feminine Imperative.
The more I read and know about feminism, modern ‘churchianity’, and the ‘churchians’ who try to push this ‘feminism without the “feminist” label’ nonsense, the more that I understand why Jesus Himself was also a ‘Man Going His Own Way’. (After all, He didn’t marry either — did He?)
Maybe there was something that He knew which was left out of the New Testament…
If staying single was ‘good enough’ for a profoundly wise man like Jesus, then it’s good enough for me.
Went to Stepping Up® event:
Did not go:
It is sad that Christianity was taken over by a goddess cult, without almost any of the adherents noticing….
The original article describes something that is nothing short of a goddess cult.
This is a weak argument, even if you want to follow that path. Dedicate yourself to spreading the Gospel like the Apostle Paul did and you would follow the pattern, but just doing your own things in life is merely picking the parts you like just as many others are doing today.
Note that I am not saying you have to marry, but claiming it is just “being like Jesus” is a faulty argument.
TheLastCoyote @ 5:58 pm:
“When do guys like this ever interact with other men they’re not related to besides work and their beta indoctrination church?”
Presumably with the friends they had before marriage. It’s a lifelong frustration for us bachelors that friends who get married suddenly abandon us and the fun times we shared. If he can’t spare a couple hours a week for poker night or gym class then I can’t shed a tear for him ending up a mule.
…
“Roman Catholic priests are a form of MGTOW… Too bad too many of them have been corrupted by the Feminine Imperative.”
Pass. We Prots have enough clergy like that of our own. Can you offer me an all-male monastery of light work and toga parties?
GunnerQ asks
>who wants to attend Gunner Q’s Life Attitude Adjustment Seminar? Next class is Sunday May 21 at the Calaveras County Fair … It’s free if you use your tithing money! Nothing adjusts your attitude like spending Pastor Cuck’s salary on carnival beer.
LOL! If I was in California near you (I think that’s where you are), I would join you 🙂
@Hmm
Re Cherelle in the article: I thought it was obvious that she could not get a man because her child is proof of promiscuity, and thus she is not marriage-material, plus any husband would have to invest his time and resources in the bastard of another man. Neither part is appealing to me.
Step Up?!?!?!? How about Steppin’ Out. As in leaving a relationship, not going out. This song is perfect IMO for this article. 1965 Paul Revere and the Raiders on Hullabaloo. Rare live version and introduced by a very young Micheal Landon. Rebuttal to the Step Up program and the cucks and feminazis. Early punk rock. Song still sound great today.
Another MGTOW article I see.You are getting good at these Mr.”D”. These Pastors are all cucked. I am so sick of the meme “It is all the man’s fault”. Step up they say?…To what? A pair of handcuffs and a (false) criminal charge? Oh Boy! What a blast! My Pastor use to be like this.Then a few years ago he reclaimed his balls.He went into his wife’s purse and got them and put them back where they belong.
@Gunner
https://selfdefensiveman.com/2014/05/08/christian-mgtow-some-of-my-reactions/
Guys look up a YouTube video from Black Pigeon Speaks titled “Why women destroy civilizations”. Western society signed it’s death warrant when it allowed women to vote.
My experience in the church, one of the reasons I left, was the opposite. Church betas are supposed to stay out of the ladies’ hair until they’re needed later. Any attempt by a non-leader to marry was met with “you lack faith, you want God and something else, God is not enough….” shaming.
Have a read of this. This is what’s coming to modern Christian marriage next:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/magazine/is-an-open-marriage-a-happier-marriage.html
Pingback: Faux males – EX CATHEDRA 2.0
The only way these shenanigans stop, is if a good Christian bachelor can explain things in a public forum in such a way that everyone else can buy in on his argument that “stepping up” is horse sh1t. Consider the following fan fiction Dennis interviewing John, on his FamilyLife show:
(Dennis): John Smith, you really are doing Christ’s work! You work full time in an office, and in the evenings, 6 nights a week, you volunteer at 6 different soup kitchens, is that correct?
(John nodding): At the moment, yes
(Dennis); And then you get 3 weeks of vacation per year, you take all that time and go on a mission trip at your own expense to South America, the Middle East, the Caribbean, Indonesia, or anywhere a natural disaster has hit, and you help out trying to rebuild their community?
(John): I’m not going to say I spend ALL of my time working there. I usually use a day or two for me to enjoy the sights and make some memories.
(Dennis): But still, John, you really have stepped up! You get it! You are the model of what I am saying when I preach to men.
(John): Thank you, but I really don’t think I am that special.
(Dennis): You are far too modest. How do you do it? What is your secret? Please help all my other men who are listening in on how they can better Step Up!
(John): Never get married in the United States of America.
(Dennis, now regretting he asked): What?
(John): Well its real simple. Have you ever heard the term, Men Going Their Own Way? You have to remain a bachelor, never take a wife in this country because she will have complete and total veto power over her husband’s life. If he tells her no, he says he is going on that mission trip, he comes home and finds that he is divorced, the house is sold, she kept all the money, and now he is on the hook for alimony and child support. So if I want to be more Christ-like, do Christ’s work, I have to remain in complete authority over my own…
(Dennis, ignoring John, not even looking at John, giving a cut throating motion to someone offstage) Cut his Mike! (turns to audience) Okay, well we are going to take a break and when were back, we are going to have a prayer vigil!
I find it funny……in our “christian church culture” today, we have retreats, seminars, podcasts, workbooks, workshops, classes, men’s (cough) “bible studies” and we hear over and over and over, and over that “men need to step up / man up / lead / be a man”
We have spent now decades talking about this……..and it’s not working.
The whole “cottage industry” around this would suffer a crushing blow if men actually were allowed to step up….and come on, the ones who do are not welcome in most churches today. That’s why they are not going.
‘Wives, don’t try to change your husband’s behavior by busting his balls. Instead, let US bust his balls for you! …..’
Yeah.. Usually its the state (with very strong complicity from women) that manipulates and exploits men in the current system.. but for a day you can let us do it!!
The is beyond despicable, and it is only by failing to call out women’s selfishness that this kind of ‘program’ is even marketed for men.
“It’s hard to find a Christian MGTOW source for some reason. All the big names are quite atheistic.”
I’m a CMGTOW, but I’m also asexual. Christian men are still men, and God made men to be, well, horny, and women know they can manipulate that to their own means.
And I echo Rich’s promotion of Black Pigeon Speaks. Some of the best YouTube content I’ve seen.
I wonder if any of these preachers telling men to ‘step up’ in the workplace or whatever have had a real job lately in the toxic environment that is the modern workplace. Stagnant wages, sorry time off policies, duh-versity, sexual harassment, no real reason to go the extra mile. I would say most men should keep their expenses low and take a job with the ‘least amount of responsibility’. Not like I won anything going the extra mile at work over the years.
Yikes.
Christ said that a man that loved his wife more than him was not worthy of him. These are true Christians. They practice churchianity which a feminist v to the core. A true Christian church keeps women in their place.
Step, man up, be a man, etc., are all masculine sounding covers for women getting more and doing less. They frame their wants and desires as widespread flaws in those they call on to serve them.
Dalrock made Instapundint.
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/264778/
They don’t care. All they care about is the collection plate and bowing at the ankles to the pussy. It’s amazing how pathetically submissive men have become to bitches. Do these idiots have no self respect at all?
honeycomb wrote:
“The companies hire Un-Married men like me and if we don’t like it we move on .. I have a job emergency fund and I never have trouble finding work. I don’t have to move kids or a wife and that makes life so much the easier.”
Some years back, I met two men who sold used luxury cars out of a warehouse. They couldn’t have been more different. The one wore the expensive suits, had all the latest tech gadgets, and was unpleasant. He was also, so I heard, a mortgage payment or two away from being bankrupt. The other partner was the complete opposite. He was cruising through life, shorts and Tommy Bahama shirts. His wife was a VP of a drug company and they had a couple million in the bank.
Discipline your spending and get some F U money.
Also, keep your resume up to date, always be looking at other opportunities, and interview regularly.
This keeps your hand on the pulse of the job market. It keeps you practiced at interviewing, and you’re never going to see a better opportunity if you’re not looking. Lastly, at least in my field, you’re never going to get much of a raise without jumping to a new position at another company. I’ve seen plenty of guys who’ve been with one company for 20+ years who are making a pittance compared to where they’d be if they just bounced to another job.
Slightly OT, but this article in today’s New York Post strikes me as apropos to the discussion at hand. It features a female author kvetching about men who, through their failure to lean in like they do, all-but-force their female peers on the downward slope of their SMV to step up. That is, since the menfolk won’t man up and impregnate them on their timeline:
https://nypost.com/2017/05/13/childish-men-are-to-blame-for-women-having-kids-late-in-life/
As would be expected, this article was written with no sense of self-awareness, karma, or even irony. Nay, that they perceive that there are “no good men left” is all the fault of the XY chromo types.
If you continue to attend any “worship center” that flogs this doggerel, it’s your own fault. The only metric is non-taxable income per annum, and if that keeps flowing, nothing’s changin’.
I can’t imagine wth is wrong with these women who are marrying men they can control. Why hook yourself to someone you can’t respect? Sure, you get a servant out of the deal, but sooo not worth it.
Un-be-frickin’-leivable. I’d laugh if the consequences weren’t so tragic.
I used to be more agnostic, until I started getting the typical gynocentric speeches from christian conservatives. then I went full atheist.
Interestingly enough, to a certain extent, this stepping up and family life crap just cost me my marriage. I made the “mistake ” of finally stepping up. Cue the sad violin music, within a period of months I was given a choice, divorce her or live under her thumb for the rest of my life. Her and her whole family have been steeped in this crap for decades. Wish I had known what i know now 14 years ago
I wonder if any of these preachers telling men to ‘step up’ in the workplace or whatever have had a real job lately in the toxic environment that is the modern workplace.
In general, no. Most of these clowns realized early in life that they have no natural ability or talent to do anything productive or gainful for society. But they loved Jesus (or at least the current culture’s concept of him), sl they decided to become a marketing agent for him right out of high school. The very few who have past experience in the real work world usually failed miserably at it. Neither group can relate to men who have to deal with it every day.
So many comments in such short time! But I finally put children and wife to bed, and now I can write my idea (unfortunately, IBB was faster with a similar one).
What could be done to make the Church better?
– infiltration of “family ministry”
– subversion of “retreat weekends” etc.
So, it would take as many as possible red pilled Christians to infiltrate these institutions. Pretend to be a cuckservative – ask wives to “let their hubby work on himself”, and then instead of beatdown, deliver the Red Pill, or – if that’s impossible – the Purple Pill.
Maybe become a marriage counselor in the parish.
Be plausibly deniable – you do it all “for the children”, given the divorce-, marriage-, fertility rate of today, bla bla bla.
But you will get moments of being with the men. Maybe they will get something.
Subvert “complementarianism” by stressing the male responsibility (with which must come power). “Yes, you are accountable for your wife sins. And don’t think she’s uncapable of sin! She never listens to you? Well, you need to find a way so that she listens.” (Dalrock / red pill patriarchy approach)
Subvert “egalitarianism” by stressing the need to hold women to standards (pretend there’re “same standards” – subvert their phobia of “double standard”). Well, the idea of holding women accountable is novel for them anyway. “If NAWALTs can do it, why can’t she?”. (MRA / MGTOW approach)
Addition to “complementarianism” – talk about differences between men and women. These bad progressives want to pretend there aren’t any (“and because of that, poor wymin suffer! boo hoo” – this should get their attention). “And we men also have strengths – if you belive different then you should just hang yourself. But you shouldn’t explain this to your wife – instead demonstrate!”
There are many feminist vigilant cunts who fight “complementarianism” already, and “write” (see: female typists) long articles “debunking” it, or generally denouncing. But most people don’t read them.
And – fly below the radar. Don’t be sincere like MRA. Don’t paint a target on yourself. Operate locally. Don’t fight them openly. Chat up some mule operating “the pumps”, to have a break for a while. Laissez faire. Don’t be angry. Don’t be dependent on a “Church job”. Hit and run. Disrupt. If there is a ministry which you can’t unplug, just make it fail. Sow conflict. And be the quietest agreeable guy.
You need to read Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, Robert Greene, Cialdini… We need anti-heros. Dio li volt!
Fred Reed’s latest. A must-read for those in the manosphere following the sex-bot trend:
https://fredoneverything.org/sally-cone-hits-the-dating-scene-kind-of-weird-but-maybe/
@Tomasz G.
Maybe become a marriage counselor in the parish.
Rule 1 of Fight Club: “Don’t talk about Fight Club.”
You have to wait for men to be miserable and broken before they will be able to escape the Matrix…even then many will not and you can only lay out a few breadcrumbs and wait for some men to show interest.
Hence, I think that a counselor for men who are going thru divorce is a better strategy.
I like your idea of flying below the radar. You also need plausible deniability and a double-meaning smokescreen to avoid ruining your reputation. You have to pretend to be part of the Matrix for the church public.
@landmine
I used to be more agnostic, until I started getting the typical gynocentric speeches from christian conservatives. then I went full atheist.
Don’t look now, but you have plenty of company…your feminist sister atheists. Maybe you can sing “Girls just wanna have fun” or “I am woman hear me roar” with them.
I was just saying—the hall pass—
Heh, I was amused hearing the term come from a preacher man because around here a “hall pass” is when the wife gives the husband permission to have a (hopefully discrete) affair.
@Elusive Wapiti:
I only read half of the article you posted. It gave me the lulz. From my own experience and that of men around me, this is bullcrap. Yes, unfortunately, this world us filled with kidult men, anything from the sports bro to the brony. We get it. But at the same time, these women will pass up the hard working nice guys because, let’s face it, responsibility at such young age is boring. So these women will ride the carousel until their 40s and then they decide to get married and pregnant. But where are all the good men they ask? Either they are married (and some we can assume gearing up for a possible divorce), or they decide not to get married and invest their energies on self improvement.
And besides, what the article won’t mention is, most of these women live just like the men they call childish. Especially the single mom types. Don’t believe me, go on Tinder. These ladies tend to be high earners, or at least that’s what they look, they like going to parties and get togethers with the girls, they like watching sports just like the boys, they like shooting guns, playing video games, traveling around the world (probably not on their own dime), drinking, and updating their social media. Yet you will never see the media refer to them as childish for doing so. And yet, they expect men to step up. And they are frustrated because they have to wait for manchildren to grow up.
Well, guess what ladies? We waited for you to grow up and you didn’t. Screw you. Hope you can raise your kid in that expensive black hole on your own that’s New York City.
And another thing. The article mentioned that most of these women looking for love are making 8 cents to the dollar more than their male counterparts. What the hell happened to the whole gender gap argument where women make 70 cents to a man’s dollar?
Btw, check out the profile on the author of this article, Melanie Notkin. “The most undervalued women in America are childless aunts.” “I’m 47 and my love life is better than ever!” Truly, quality work!
Religion is all about social control. Tis why the state used to be so heavily invested in religion. It’s why the deck is stacked against men in divorce. It’s why men build civilizations, maintain civilizations and why men are trafficked, exploited, used, manipulated and disposed of in war for women’s and the state’s advancement. If you flee – you’ll pay with your life and future. That’s the only reason marriage/divorce exists – to trap men to legal and financial obligations to women and the state. Marriage is a contrived, social, legal and religious construct to enslave men to women and their true husband (the state), so that the state and civilization survive, for the benefit of the wealthy, the various victim classes and women, regardless of the outcome for the culturally hated and disposable common man. The rest is all a gigantic load of BS.
Wanna live a good life, bruhs? Take Paul’s advice. Never give a woman or the state any level of legal and/or financial power over your life. That’s it. If you can handle that, follow my words and you’ll live life as a free man. If you can’t handle it, fall in line like the rest of the programmed automatons and await your predetermined doom. Become the victim of the marriage of the state to womanhood and male disposability.
Trust me here, bruhs. Marriage is all about women and their husband, the state. Men have zero business engaging in that man-made replica of Hades. Reject both and live your life a free man. Tis the way Jesus really wanted it.
@Tomasz G
I’d say a better description is the term “Patriarchy” for it not only incorporates the complementary nature of the sexes but also its hierarchical nature where the Man is head and therefore master of the Household representing Christ as our lord is our master and the wife representing the Church who subjects herself to her master treating him with reverence as people used to reverence their king. And also the importance of chastity.
I keep wanting to find a woman, but then I read this stuff and start black pilling hard. If most of Christianity is against us, then how does one find the power to continue on?
Besides “Patriarchy” is more ballsy and that in spite of the enemies of God claiming that it is inherently abusive to women. The real deal as ordained by God has its purposes the best deal for both sexes as they are designed to be where wife submits herself through obedience and reverence and Husband loves and cherishes her as his own body treating her with honor as the weaker vessel and giving her what she needs.
@RecoveringBeta
Many heretics. That they would twist the very words of God for their own benefit they are not of us.
If most of Christianity is against us, then how does one find the power to continue on?
It helps to remember that what is arrayed against us is churchianity, not true Christianity. Of course that just adds to the risk of depression setting in when you realize that this simply points out just how rare real Christians are.
@Tim
You give a pretty darn accurate and concise summary of the mess we’re in. But I still can’t help but see how the Godly family unit is the basis of the civilisation you talk about. Destroy the family, and the civilisation crumbles, which is exactly what we have now.
The problem is the State interfering in family business. The problem is, as you allude, that marriage, as we have it, is marriage to the State. The State is fundamentally involved in Marriage 2.0. And I don’t doubt that that involvement is primarily motivated by the aim to disempower men, enslave them economically, and turn them into obedient automatons. It’s all according to plan.
Whether or not Paul had that in mind, I don’t know. Quite likely. Whether or not marriage in any form equals enslavement, I don’t know. But that too is quite likely. Personally, I have been married and frivorced, and I’m still enslaved after 13 years. The after-effects linger.
Do you think there will always be mugs (like me) who get married, and without them enslaving themselves as they do, civilisation will ultimately self-destruct?
Anyway, you give very good food for thought.
You know the difference between a dog and a wolf? The dog never actually matures into adult wolf hood and remains mentally a puppy all their life. Humans are quite similar here.
The authors are not adults, nor are the people they describe, and most likely, none of them will ever mature either, there isn’t a path in their lives for that experience. And let’s hope there never will be, because it would probably break them.
These are people who have missed out on many important life lessons as children and young adults, consistently so — they are intellectually and emotionally crippled to the point of having almost no self respect and as a result, no respect for others.
There once was a time when being a grown up was a point of pride (for men and women), and the kind of things that are normal nowadays would have just been embarrassing in more sane times.
It’s the immature disrespect for the self that permeates many things — not only how couples treat each other, but how we dress and behave in public, the unflattering ‘fashions’ we wear that make most people look like living sausages, and the dysfunctional (and unkind) social norms we accept as normal, the pride in mathematical illiteracy and many other childish things that the margin of this comment box is too small to describe.
Maybe the solution is to view feminism (etc) as a symptom of immaturity and to push for more sober adult behaviours all round.
Paul advocated being single to further the Gospel, not to further our own ends. Using his arguments to encourage current MGTOW approaches is as bad as any other misuse of the Scriptures.
It may be a necessary or even valid approach for some, given the legal climate, but it does not have some holy wrapping.
Hey Rocko:
Yeah, it’s hard to read the linked article and know where to begin. For those that are red-pilled and see the FI in action for what it is, lolz for sure.
“So these women will ride the carousel until…they decide to get married and pregnant.”
Yup. The problem for these women is that, at 35, they are approaching the Wall. They are about 15 years past their SMV peak and just about at the end of their fertility. What’s more, they likely
have a high N count to boot. Who wants to go where 5, 10, 30 other men have gone before? Ick.
They way I see it, they bought into pursuing the feminist merit badge of career in their 20s and early 30s, and in doing so, chose to delay family formation. No one ever taught them about opportunity cost, apparently. They really think they can have it all.
I feel sorry for them, honestly. They’ve inverted the natural order of their life: They’ve squandered their best SMV years, when they should be in the hunt for a husband / father and bear children (and have the youth and vitality to capably do both), on the Carousel and on Work.
“…most of these women live just like the men they call childish.”
This is another great point. Our culture still seems to consider marriage as the event that turns man-boys into full-up men. But no such thing exists for women. When do girls matriculate? What life event separates the silly material girls from responsible, sober women? Is it motherhood?
If so, then the trend of delaying childbirth until the mid-30s suggests that there are a whole lotta child-women out there, concurrent with the child men that Ms. Notkin blames for her sisters’ woes.
As such, in the spirit of Ms. Notkin’s article, it seems that women need to step up to the plate and do their duty: Marry, bear, and raise a man’s 2.3 children. Until they do that, they’re just being childish.
@Evolyn
Even with Maturity the underlying premise of the way the west by and large functions that includes all “isms” largely egalitarianisms and so forth have their origin in Enlightenment. Which interacts with the underlying pathology that has been going on since the 12th century with courtly love:
https://gynocentrism.com/2013/11/06/rise-of-courtly-love/
And the feminization of the church in the same period which originated the idea of women being more ”spiritual” and ”morally superior” to men:
http://www.podles.org/files/Church-Impotent/ChurchImpotent_Chapter6.pdf
And how the worship of Jesus became erotic and thereby instinctively disturbing to any sane man. What people disparage as “emotionalism” in church culture is actually eroticism that has perverted the worship of God.
These men talking to women sound so pathetic. Oh wait – they sound like women talking to women because they forgot how to talk with men.
My guess is this was on a woman’s radio broadcast or women listen more at this hour. So they think talking like women to women is a reasonable thing to do, but I cannot imagine the man hearing these people who would want to attend.
I despise the whole concept of a “honey, do” list and I tell my married friends that regularly. If she wants you to do something she should feel free to ask. Nicely. Making a list of things she expects me to do? Not her place and I don’t accept that she has the authority.
Likewise I get on my friends’ cases when they say “I have to ask if I can…” What are you? Five? Reasonable discussion on whether a plan fits into the household, budget, needs and wants of others, absolutely. Asking permission? Absolutely not!
Fred Reed’s latest. A must-read for those in the manosphere following the sex-bot trend:
https://fredoneverything.org/sally-cone-hits-the-dating-scene-kind-of-weird-but-maybe/
That whole “womens’ intuition” thing has some truth to it. They know that the alternatives like sexbots and prostitutes take the sexual monopoly out of their hands, and they’re freaking out.
Pingback: Raising an army of LARPers. | Dalrock
@Heresolong, +1. I’m amazed and dismayed at some of my friends’ passive acceptance of their wives’ authority. They swallow churchian philosophy whole.
Pingback: Rainey understands his target audience. | Dalrock
Pingback: This Week In Reaction (2017/05/14) - Social Matter
Pingback: Man up and honor your father. | Dalrock
Pingback: Gotta ask the boss, Christian edition. | Dalrock
Pingback: Some Christian conservatives bow down for feminists
Pingback: What happened to our men that our women are forced to have such big dicks? | Dalrock
Pingback: A real life example of the power of a Christian wife. | Dalrock
I’m completely lost on why she’d be planning his weekend for him in the first place. She’s his wife, not his boss at work. She’s also not his mother. Even if she was, he is an adult, not a child. Thus, it would no longer be appropriate for her to order him around like that.
I would feel the same, if the genders were reversed, i.e. he is her husband, not her boss at work. He is also not her father.
Even if he was, she is an adult, not a child. Thus, it would no longer be appropriate for him to order her around like that.
Whatever happened to basic respect? I have been married 12 years, and my husband and I have never behaved this way towards one another. That anyone, regardless of gender, would think such presumptuous, condescending behavior is ok is absolutely baffling to me.