Rollo Tomassi made me aware of a blog post by J. Lee Grady at charismamag.com that mentions both of our blogs. The article is Don’t Swallow the ‘Red Pill’. It is aimed primarily at the Red Pill subreddit, but clearly is intended to warn readers off of all of the men’s sphere. It is a sloppy drive-by post, not worthy of a serious rebuttal. But it does offer a springboard for some Friday afternoon entertainment.
As confused as the author is (intentionally or otherwise), it is clear that Grady is a hard core feminist, and we therefore have radically different views of Christianity. Recent posts from Grady include Break Free From the Patriarchal Spirit and Why Women Belong on the Front Lines of Ministry:
This past weekend my oldest daughter, Margaret, quietly made history. She was ordained as a pastor at United Assembly, the church in Seneca, South Carolina, where her husband, Rick, has served as an associate pastor for several years. Margaret and another woman, Marly, are the first females to be ordained into pastoral ministry at this church.
As Margaret’s father, I couldn’t be prouder. I have watched her spiritual anointing develop since she was a little girl. But I’m also aware that the road won’t be easy for her or for any woman who embraces the call to leadership.
Thankfully, Margaret’s church is affiliated with a denomination (the Assemblies of God) that fully embraces the ordination of women. But there are hundreds of thousands of churches in 2017 that limit women’s gifts by enforcing a spiritual glass ceiling that was actually shattered long ago on the day of Pentecost.
This lines up quite well with a recent post by Larry Sparks, Grady’s fellow blogger at charismamag. Sparks recently blogged about being moved to prophecy by the movie Wonder Woman. From Prophetic Word: God Is Handing Out Swords and Mantles to His Wonder Women:
While watching Wonder Woman with my family, I sensed the Holy Spirit present a series of prophetic thoughts directed at what He is doing in women in this generation.
The Lord is handing out swords to women in this hour!
A sword represents authority. A sword qualifies you to fight. A sword is not a shield. A shield is defensive, but a sword is offensive…
I decree that you are receiving a sword in this season—a sword of authority for your assignment. I decree that, right now, you are being set free from any intimidation associated with the assignment the Lord is extending to you.
Sparks decrees that the feminist innovation of the CBMW regarding women preaching is no longer enough*. It is time for the next step:
For too long, Christianity has perpetuated a “women’s conference” mentality, where anointed and gifted women preachers are given opportunities to share what Holy Spirit has put on their hearts—but in a restrained setting, woman-to-woman. Yes, continue to have women’s conferences. Yes, continue to ensure that women disciple women. The problem is this cannot be all there is.
I prophesy that the hour is at hand where women are going to be released from exclusively speaking to women. Because they have been knighted by their Father in heaven, I see the daughters of God arising to boldly declare the Word of the Lord to the church and release supernatural solutions into the broken parts of society.
Grady and Sparks no doubt find me and my theology shocking and weird. I would be concerned if they did not.
*Sparks however seems to be behind the feminist Christian power curve, as Grady’s daughter already has taken up her Wonder Woman sword.
“.. Because they have been knighted by their father in Heaven.” Appalling, but far from unexpected. What does one do after one has sold ones birthright and manhood for a full collection plate? Double down on the madness.
I’m sure this is not a new sentiment here, but Pentecostalism (and Charisma is a de facto Pentecostal publication) is highly vulnerable to heresy.
Grady’s case study “Zach” sounds like a bitter beta with poor game.
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Of course, in the Wonder Woman movie, the sword itself is revealed as having no actual power… so I guess in a roundabout way, that fits! But what does fit, is that with Wonder Woman being revealed as a goddess, and the other gods all dead, that the Goddess is now in charge of the Earth … fits the current Goddess-Worship that we have going on in our churches.
Well, we all know how this will end. History repeats itself.
This part blew me away:
“While watching Wonder Woman with my family, I sensed the Holy Spirit present a series of prophetic thoughts directed at what He is doing in women in this generation.”
So, the Holy Spirit spoke to her as she watched a movie about a fictional character based on Greek paganism, and with a whole lot misandry thrown in to boot.
I couldn’t have made this up had I tried.
As someone who has taken up an actual sword through Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA for short), having a sword in your hand no more qualifies you to fight than having the keys to a car qualify you to drive. It requires significant training in order to half-way competently wield a sword.
So much Satanism, so little time to address each heresy itself.
No God didn’t call his princess to preach, that was the snake whispering.
Again, “whispers” or “prophecies” should be filtered through scripture. Gods word and Gods voice will not contradict, but I guess that concept is too simple for the learned elite.
Right, so they’re going to release Supernatural solutions to the world’s problems. Why does that sound so ominous? Jesus is our Saviour, not these imbecilic women. This is not the work of God.
Reading Grady’s bio, I would frankly be warning women who have contact with him to be careful. He seems to have the singular obsession with women that manifests itself in “male feminist” ways, and those dudes are dangerous. Many of them turn out to be kid touchers and rapists using the “male feminist” guise as a means of lowering their victims’ guards.
That is why so many mainstream denominations have gone hip deep into the dumpster….
Oh wait, no Pentacostalism there. Perhaps it is just a human problem. Consider that more than focusing on your pet (non-Biblical) doctrines.
MPAI is true, whether in churches or society.
ar10308,
But I have watched a bunch of anime….
just what women need. MORE undeserved authority to destroy their families with.
make no mistake, that is the “sword” women are being granted. the power to chop their husbands and sons right in half.
These people are delusional, and obviously afflicted by evil spirits. The United States greatly needs a national exorcism to drive out the evil spirits that are clouding men’s and women’s minds with this obvious idiocy and heresy.
Ephesians 6:12 (ESV)
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
With all the Wonder Woman fixation that the modern churches have recently used to push a doctrine of feminism, I’m going to make a small prediction: It’s only going to be a matter of time until we see a pastor give a sermon in which he says that the next step in bringing about God’s vision of a truly egalitarian church will be to recognize that our faith’s fixation on God the Father and Jesus the son leaves female worshippers unable to see any of themselves in the person of our Lord. So to rectify this injustice, the church will now sanction worship directed towards the ancient goddess Diana as a stand-in for God, which will be followed soon after by restoring the practices and rituals that were employed by her original followers.*
Somebody’s going to do it.
*IYKWIMAITYD
“So to rectify this injustice, the church will now sanction worship directed towards the ancient goddess Diana as a stand-in for God”
They already exist. They’re called Unitarians. AKA the church of anything goes.
Older relative, pastor, who has been preaching over 50 years related the following:
Church member: “Brother so and so, I think I had a revelation from God.”
Older relative: “And why is that?”
Church member: “I had a dream where he told me it would be okay to leave my husband and get a new man.”
Older relative: “That wasn’t God, that was eating too many beans before bed.”
Does it matter if they are ordained or not? They are still running the church.
I am quite happy that many of you have a church you attend that is teaching properly on wifely and husbandley roles. I live in northern CO and have been to churches that are verse by verse and teach it properly, but behind the veil the women are running the men. I for one have not the nerve to watch this. Just like the pretib. rapture non sense, if a pastor has not studied his bible and continues to vomit only what he has been TAUGHT TO BELIEVE, I cannot fathom him teaching other things correctly as well.
“the Holy Spirit spoke to her as she watched a movie about a fictional character based on Greek paganism,”
The Holy Spirit is not inhibited by the presence of paganism.
If God is omnipotent, and if the Holy Spirit is God, then the Holy Spirit can speak to whomever under any circumstances.
At any rate, the recent Wonder Woman film is not pagan; it is an Israeli version of sado-masochistic propaganda, featuring an Israeli actress who desires the mass murder of Palestinians, including Christian Palestinians.
The entire character of Wonder Woman was invented by a sexual pervert named William Moulton Marston for propaganda purposes.
The current film-makers may have successfully stolen some pagan ideas – I don’t know, and I am not going to watch their film to find out.
Also, Grady and Sparks both claim to have special revelations from God that form their doctrine. Now as they are both protestant I would expect they claim “sola scriptura”, but in point of fact they reject this sola when they claim to be prophets and contradict Paul. Since they have neither the solas nor church history and law to fall back upon, they are simply making it up as they go.
Or as Samuel wrote, “In those days there was no king in Israel, and every man did that which was right in his own eyes.”
Doesn’t seem that funny to me. These people are working to undermine marriages, destroy the church and do damage to many lives.
I also look at Grady’s “ministries” and they appear to me, opinion only, highly suspect. “Methinks he doth protest too much” and “SJWs always project” and so forth. Again, opinion and instinct, not making any accusations.
Vanamé @ 2:47 pm:
“I’m sure this is not a new sentiment here, but Pentecostalism (and Charisma is a de facto Pentecostal publication) is highly vulnerable to heresy.”
Just what I was thinking. It’s sad because the mystical side of Christianity is badly neglected in the West, but the ones who are most interested in it are so eager for divine intervention that they throw out Scripture in their enthusiasm. Bad idea to reject God’s Word then hope He shows up to give you a special lesson.
In fairness, though, the reason Christian mysticism has fallen aside is because God hasn’t acted publicly since at least the American Revolution. He’s been content to give us enough technology to be the envy of ancient sorcerers instead. Moses’ staff could turn into a snake but my flying robo-dinosaur can fire missiles and translate English to Klingon.
Miracles are so meh to this modern American.
I’m going to make a small prediction: It’s only going to be a matter of time until we see a pastor give a sermon in which he says that the next step in bringing about God’s vision of a truly egalitarian church will be to recognize that our faith’s fixation on God the Father and Jesus the son leaves female worshippers unable to see any of themselves in the person of our Lord. So to rectify this injustice, the church will now sanction worship directed towards…
Mary, Queen of Heaven. Already been done, and still goes on all over the world.
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm
Alternatives exist too
So I think Diana won’t be necessary.
“A sword is not a shield. A shield is defensive, but a sword is offensive…”
Idiot.
“The Holy Spirit is not inhibited by the presence of paganism.”
That is not what I meant. What I meant is that the Holy Spirit would not used Paganism as a source of divine inspiration or teaching.
“While watching Wonder Woman with my family, I sensed the Holy Spirit present a series of prophetic thoughts directed at what He is doing in women in this generation.
The Lord is handing out swords to women in this hour!”
Great Hera!!! Hail Zeus!!!!! HeyZeus? Jesus?
The comments to his article are a bit surprising to read. I would have expected far more righteous indignation and feminist bandwagoners.
Apparently that’s not the case.
Have the men sitting in the pews on Sundays finally rediscovered their testicles? Jeeze!
For some more lighthearted Friday entertainment, check out this YouTube video. At 31:10 a woman self-identifies as a kickboxer and then gets epically pwned in the ring by a kangaroo. Here’s a chance for J. Lee Grady to see how a real woman fights! (Hint: not on her feet.)
Yes Dalrock – we are entertained.
I prophesy that the hour is at hand where women are going to be released from exclusively speaking to women. Because they have been knighted by their Father in heaven,
I believe the standard for prophets was set as 100% correct on all prophecies all the time, no slack. Anything less meant you were not an actual prohet of God. So if the hour is “at hand” I’ll guess we can check back on this in a few.
Is “I prophesy” a verb?
http://www.newser.com/story/comments/245299/good-news-for-moms-who-opt-to-raise-kids-alone.html
From the guy’s article of “women need to be on the front lines of ministry”:
[I] “If women had this level of influence in the first century—at a time when women were typically treated like property—how much freer should women be to preach today” [/i]
Numerous Pagan religions had priestesses. (Especially in Greece, the oracle at Delphi wad a woman, I think?) There would have been no problem for women preaching then.
[i] “Spiritual gifting is not tied to gender. In many evangelical churches today, women are told that their “role” is to serve as wife, mother and domestic servant—and that men have the “role” of leadership. Women are told that preaching, pastoring, teaching and even leading worship are “masculine” gifts, while “feminine” gifts consist of teaching children, prayer, cooking, cleaning and secretarial work. But this sexist view is rooted in macho pride, not in the Bible.” [/i]
Do I really have to say anything to this? How about Ephesians 5:22 to start. I’m sure others can rattle of a few other verses as well. Though I personally reject the whole premise in the first place.
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Gunner Q. I would be very interested in your reasons for believing that God acted publicly during the American Revolution. I certainly will agree that divine intervention was needed (and requested!). But I do not fully understand the statement that publicity was necessary (or proved.) Can you provide more details of this public intervention?
You’ve got to be shitting me. Just when you think stupid can’t get anymore insane. *smfh*
For crying out loud you can’t even satirize this stuff anymore. It’s just too fucking stupid!
Pure idolatry. Reading perverted books from Gnostic roots of Alexandria, and not the King James. Disregarding the scriptures of submission, and keeping quiet. Precisely what God has revealed in the book of Revelation… the fact that we are in the 7th and last age, the lukewarm age “Laodicea”.
The 7 Churches Of Revelation Deception
Well, something gave these people spiritual guidance. Probably the same thing that guided Mohammed and Joseph Smith in caves.
Grady mistakes pride in his daughter’s upbringing – a worthy achievement – with the Cult of Liberalism.
Liberalism teaches that above all other considerations, the freedom of the individual must be maximised. This is not in and of itself wrong, as long as it is recognised that there are natural limits to that freedom. The first of those natural constraints is that we are born male or female. Not to worry, says Liberalism – “Gender Reassignment”. Another constraint is the reproductive age of women: 35 is the upper limit, beyond which the risk of birth defects increases exponentially. Not to worry, says Liberalism: “freeze your eggs….”
Being proud of having a daughter is not wrong. But not recognising her natural limits because of Liberalism, not being able to see what is demographically plain, disobeying Scripture when Christian – has pushed Grady and many, many other fathers into idolatry.
Fathers of old understood the role of women and understood the roles they were to play in a young woman’s adulthood. Scott at American Dad, for example stated it: ” I will not engage in stupid chivalry. I will help our daughter find a husband” (my paraphrase). Rollo Tomassi was even blunter: ” …She’s of the age where she wants a dick. Help her choose one properly, or she will start choosing them on her own…”
Both of these examples are traditionally – and biblically- valid. Placing women into roles into which they aren’t suited, from careers, ministry in this case, the services – endangers them and ultimately makes them have sad, bitter and unfulfilled lives. This message has been seen over and over.
Conspiracy theorist /media commentator Mark Dice is currently selling a T-Shirt that says – “Liberalism – Find a Cure” , replte with a blue ribbon. Someone should buy one and send it to Grady.
Recovering,
Your post helped me make a new connection: Charasmatics are like the false religions, except their extra-biblical revelation comes from their whispers. In some way I can’t figure out, I think it is wrong to hold Charasmatics to account like CBMW or TGC, I don’t have any evidence, but they’ve always struck me as not able to put things together so that they are fully responsible for themselves. They remind me more an ill teenager in despair than a responsible adult. So I think their feminism is more on the Evangelical leadership’s backs. Ha ha, I unintentionally blamed the Pipers with the same argument they use when they blame men for women’s rebellion.
Serious question… I’m interested in finding a socially and politically conservative Christian church. My family is Episcopalian, and that is about as far from conservative as one can get. I am looking for something much more traditional and consersative. Obviously, its going to take some leg work and trial and error. However can you suggest which kind of congregations I should consider? Baptist? Methodist? Other?
@feministhater
In some ways I’m not surprised by the result found at the link you shared. I don’t know about the differences in welfare conditions faces by each family, but I can tell you from personal that in some situations the actions of the parents to offset the bad decision of an out of wedlock birth by their daughter more than offsets, at least financially, the presence of the daughters make sexual partner as husband. This is a topic that surprisingly hasn’t gotten any attention here or elsewhere, but is something I compete with daily.
Here is an example. A woman raised in an upper middle class neighborhood has a kid out of wedlock but doesn’t marry the man because he was a bum. Her parents, seeing that her future could be ruined, expecting her to have the child, and knowing they live in a good neighborhood, take her in and offer to ler her live with them rent free. The daughter can either marry the alpha bum and her and her kid struggle, she could live on her own and struggle, or she can move in with her upper middle class parents where she will live in a very nice neighborhood with great schools. She is rational so she chooses to stay with her parents.
Meanwhile, another woman marries young and has children within marriage. But since the family is still younger they haven’t reached their max household income. In other words money is still tight. Since they are hard workers we believe that they will overcome each struggle associated with marriage and raising a family, but it will take time and effort to reach it.
Two points, first, the woman who did the “right” thing by marrying first, then having children, and then sticking to her marriage is actually worse off because her husband, who is at the beginning of his earning years can’t compete with the father of the single mother who is already at his peak earning years. Second, the desire of the parents to help their single mother daughter actually create strong disincentives for other women to maintain their marriages in the presence of children. They see that their children will be better off if they leave their husband and go live with their higher earning parents.
This result isn’t just for single mother daughters of upper middle income families. These conditions would plausibly exist under any circumstance where an out of wedlock birth occurs with a man that earns less than the woman’s father.
Its just another twist on AFBB, where the beta isn’t the government or some now successful but previously disregarded male that a woman suddenly settles for, but it’s the single mothers father.
It’s impossible for a woman to be a pastor/priest/minister/etc. in a Christian church. The moment a church has an ordination ceremony where a bishop (or whatever) knowingly declares a chick to be clergy, that church becomes apostate, no longer Christian until repentance. The latter REQUIRES turning away from their specific sin (e.g., declaring that ordination to be 100% mistaken and invalid), not just unreservedly asking for forgiveness, although that is required as well.
Lisa Bevere did the Girls with Swords thing in 2013 http://amzn.to/2u2aYN1
Everyone else is late to the party,
She has a major impact on the neopentecostal crowd
The Bible is more like guidelines, really.
Second, the desire of the parents to help their single mother daughter actually create strong disincentives for other women to maintain their marriages in the presence of children. They see that their children will be better off if they leave their husband and go live with their higher earning parents.
I’m not convinced. Most people are smart enough to look a little bit into the future and realize the parents who took their daughter back in have made the best of a bad situation, and that situation will probably only get worse with time as her child is raised without a father.
MD- If you want something liturgical then maybe an Orthodox Church (one in English) might be what you’re looking for.
Thankfully, Margaret’s church is affiliated with a denomination (the Assemblies of God) that fully embraces the ordination of women.
So he confirms from the inside what we outsiders have already known: the Pentacostals are a gang of heretics.
Again, “whispers” or “prophecies” should be filtered through scripture.
Oh no, no, no, not if Scripture is going to tell you what you DON’T want to hear.
No exegesis is neutral and reality (which is objective) rightly requires that any correct exegesis be a right exegesis with a cogent hermeneutic.
But the empirical body of modern feminist exegesis and hermeneutics are unquestionably faulty to the point of heresy.
Post-modern revisionist and rejectionist “Christian” feminists, guided by modern leftist sociopolitical ideologies, either reject the orthodox historical view of the Bible and it’s authority or seek a theological and exegetical reconstruction which opposes and competes with the actual true historical orthodox Christian exegesis and hermeneutic (just as heretical so-called “Christian” cults do).
Many of these “Christian feminists” network with non-Christian feminists of whom the most radical actually call for the restoration of neo-paganism, even witchcraft, or nature mysticism based exclusively on women’s consciousness.
The reality is that patriarchalism is the orientation of scripture. The preponderance of biblical images for the Father-God are masculine. The slant of cultic legislation in scripture is male-oriented.
Now this patriarchalism does not descend into chauvinistic androcentrism. For example, the masculine images of God are set forth as anthropomorphisms (God being spirit). But without question, patriarchalism is the orientation of scripture which is God’s own special revelation delivered by those He chose for the purpose.
Modern “Christian” feminists either deny the egalitarian emphasis (rejectionism) or see this strain as ‘counter-cultural’ to the dominant focus (reformism) but their approaches fail to recognize the integrity of biblical revelation as it really is, which is the historical orthodox view (not to be confused with incorrect post-modern revisionist views such as the Bauer-Ehrman error [see The Heresy of Orthodoxy by Kostenberger, Kruger, and Marshall for more information on that topic]).
(Note: As an aside, for your entertainment, I actually had to explain to a heretical radical Christian feminist so-called “pastor” last year who was openly teaching that God the father is male and the Holy Spirit is female and they had sex and that’s how Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb (rather than the simple truth which is that just as God’s Spirit hovered over the waters creating life on earth, God imbued the Christ into the womb of Mary without sex and without being female). Of course, she rejected the truth and continued in her erroneous heresy. Like Simon the magician, she had quite a following of radical feminists enriching her financially).
-American M.Div.
“Frank K says: Well, we all know how this will end. History repeats itself.
This part blew me away: “While watching Wonder Woman with my family, I sensed the Holy Spirit present a series of prophetic thoughts directed at what He is doing in women in this generation.”
So, the Holy Spirit spoke to her as she watched a movie about a fictional character based on Greek paganism, and with a whole lot misandry thrown in to boot. I couldn’t have made this up had I tried.”
in the name of e-quality we need to at least have something equivalent for the men in the audience.
“While watching “Batman” or “Captain America” with my family, I sensed the Holy Spirit present a series of prophetic thoughts directed at what He is doing with “men who like dressing up in costumes and fighting crime” in this generation.”
Darn, the above was meant to read but WP swallowed my quotes. Just so its clear to God and man this is sarcasm !!
” ”
“While watching “Batman” or “Captain America” with my family, I sensed the Holy Spirit present a series of prophetic thoughts directed at what He is doing with “men who like dressing up in costumes and fighting crime” in this generation.”
“”
once again – sigh…..<<<<>>>>> – does this work ?
WP just eats formatting sometimes.
”begin sarcasm ”
“While watching “Batman” or “Captain America” with my family, I sensed the Holy Spirit present a series of prophetic thoughts directed at what He is doing with “men who like dressing up in costumes and fighting crime” in this generation.”
“/end sarcasm”
wp really does go nuts with pretend “”
LG, yes 😀 , don’t use the forward or backward arrows even with made up keywords, everything gets swallowed in-between. WP has a fair amount of unspoken commands, you’d think they would like them in the dialog for easy use – but that be far too easy.
jeff,
You can stay to have God’s wrath poured out on you if you want, but I am leaving on the first flight thank you. That doesn’t mean I won’t face troubles, but being a target of His wrath is not something any Christian should plan.
adam,
The number of fathers with that much money is far more limited than you think.
It all sounds very New Age-y.
Decided to make a disqus account just to comment on that charisma article. My pseudonym there is John Rosenberg. Have no idea if they censor comments or not…
While watching a Little Rascals episode concerning the He-Man Woman Hater’s Club, I sensed the Holy Spirit present a series of prophetic thoughts directed at what He is doing through the Manosphere to preach wifely submission in all matters to their husbands.
RecoveringBeta said, “Well, something gave these people spiritual guidance. Probably the same thing that guided Mohammed and Joseph Smith in caves.”
That’s good, that one…real good!
@Spike
Mark Dice on YouTube is definitely worth following. He’s a cunny funt.
This is the type of nonsense the devil uses to destroy churches. It already is used to destroy families.
@Canon Rex
You have men like Derek that come on that will be quite slimy with words in regards to tradition and scripture.
‘ While watching Wonder Woman with my family, I sensed the Holy Spirit present a series of prophetic thoughts directed at what He is doing in women in this generation.
The Lord is handing out swords to women in this hour!
A sword represents authority. A sword qualifies you to fight. A sword is not a shield. A shield is defensive, but a sword is offensive…
I decree that you are receiving a sword in this season—a sword of authority for your assignment. I decree that, right now, you are being set free from any intimidation associated with the assignment the Lord is extending to you.’
Which is totally against Scripture. A woman’s authority is over her children…motherhood. What we have today is ‘whispers’ telling women to give up that authority for whatever sword.
http://www.usccb.org/bible/sirach/3
Snowy says:
July 8, 2017 at 3:27 am
@Spike
Mark Dice on YouTube is definitely worth following. He’s a cunny funt.
-I agree, Snowy. He cracks me up.
Does a sword represent authority? Or power? Authority and power are not at all the same thing. Authority is given, power is taken (often by force). Tyrants will of course claim to have authority when all they really have is power, seized ruthlessly. I’ve always had the impression that what feminists seek is power, though they’ll claim authority once they have power.
BillyS,
Tribulation and wrath are two separate things. We will not indure God’s wrath. Christians in the middle East are having their kids kidnapped. The kids are brutalized, killed, cut up and then the islamists tell the parents they will see them again and host the parents for a dinner. The parents eat the dinner and then are told they just had Junior for dinner. If that is not tribulation, please explain what is.
Eusibias, Tacitus, Joephus and others record 70AD destruction and Jesus’ prophecies coming true.
Look up Gary DeMar, Steve Greg, Joe Boot. Their teachings are sound and biblical.
As far as pastors teaching, think about where they go to seminary. Seminaries are full of feminism, cucks. THEY TEACH PASTORS WHAT TO BELIEVE. They do not teach how to train others how to read the Bible and how to teach others to be disciples. Why do you think the virtue signal and AMOG? These pastors are teaching a 150 year old false prophecy to make people feel good. Just like they virtue signal to make people feel good.
Not to derail the conversation, but it looks like any average woman who wants to marry can find a husband in no time, as shown here.
If the “front lines” of ministry consists of quietly making sammiches I’m in total agreement.
‘Does a sword represent authority? Or power?’
From my research it can represent both…it can also represent division as well.
@GOL, lol !
Jesus came to bring both truth and a sword, where are they going with this ? 😀
@earl Swords don’t represent authority in the Bible. They represent words and they represent judgment. The rod represents authority.
I am a Charismatic. Yet, I have stopped going to this type of church for a long time. The reason is their laziness. They presuppose that since the Holy Ghost is God Himself, anything He says to them must be correct and the Word of God Himself! So it is at the same level as the Bible! So there is no need to read the Bible. Yet the Bible clearly states to test all spirits and doctrine. Even in the Church of Corinth there were people alongside each other that were spouting different doctrines; one Godly and another blashphemous and from evil spirits. One was saying that Jesus is Lord while the guy next to them was spouting that Jesus was accursed. Modern day Charismatics would give both messages equal value.
Jesus is our example to follow. He was very devoted to reading the Holy Scripture and knew it in His physical brain very well. He had set aside His divinity to fellowship with men for a season and only did that which any man could in theory do. He did not depend on His divine powers to do anything but only the gifts that the Father had given Him when He needed them. So, He had to know scriptures extremely well to battle the evil one especially at His moments of physical weakness such as at the wilderness and even during the crucifixion.
Moderne day Charismatics believe that the “whispers” trump anything in the Bible. Thus you will see the so called laughing blessing spreading throughout its churches with no one question it. Or you will see people howling like hyenas and jumping like Kangaroos at the Toronto VIneyard Church.
The “red pill” about a model of reality that works it does.
Apparently people want this not
If the “front lines” of ministry consists of quietly making sammiches I’m in total agreement.
@darwinian Arminian
>So to rectify this injustice, the church will now sanction worship directed towards the ancient goddess Diana as a stand-in for God
You are a little late. We normally avoid this topic, but it is directly related to the OP and DA’s comment. Consider how some large organizations, claiming to be Christian, advocate praying to various saints, instead of only to God, as if those saints can intervene for us with God; some of those canonized saints are women.
But 1 Tim 2:5-6 says:
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.
The most common person “prayed” to, outside of God, is of course a woman. One claim is that she can intervene for us, with the “vengeful” God the Father; giving us grace where God supposedly is only wanting justice. But 1 John 2:1 says,
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
So who speaks in our defense? The mother of Jesus? Or Jesus himself?
I think they even claim that this woman can forgive sins, or at least they ask her to forgive, which seems the same thing. In Luke 5 we read:
20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”
21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
22Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? 23Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 24But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins….” He said to the paralyzed man, “I
tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”
The Pharisees correctly understood that only God can forgive sins. That was not their error; neither God the Son nor God the Father ever said anyone other than God can forgive. The Pharisees’ error was not acknowledging that Jesus was God.
It is sad that many people claiming to be Christians do not remember that only God can forgive sins; not a canonized saint, not me, not the local religious professional.
@Billy
>The number of fathers with that much money is far more limited than you think.
Not too sure about that. Once you have the house paid off, housing costs are pretty low. And assuming the father has an extra bedroom available, the incremental costs of having a renter that you trust is very low; just extra wear on the carpet and extra utility costs.
So permitting your promiscuous / unfaithful daughter to squat in your unused bedroom is pretty low.
Now if the father also foots the bill for the non-lodging expenses, such as food and clothing for her, and food, clothing, etc. for the baby, then yes, that will start to add up. But without the lodging costs, the promiscuous / unfaithful daughter still has a much easier time being “independent” than otherwise.
A comment came into moderation yesterday that included not only the commenter’s full name as their handle, but their phone number and company name were at the bottom of the comment. I assume the latter and perhaps the former was autofilled by their iPhone. I deleted the comment instead of approving it, but if this was your comment and you want to comment again feel free to do so, ideally without the personal information.
Honestly I would never have guessed the Assemblies of God was cucked and feminist. Wow.
Jeff,
I would fully argue eschatology here, but the whole point of the Tribulation is the outpouring of God’s wrath. I will not be present, one way or another.
You don’t really understand what that time is. Note that I fully expect really bad things to continue to happen to Christians until then. I personally hope I don’t have to be in it, but I will trust Him to bring me through if I do. I already have a small part with my divorce, but that is nothing compared to what you note.
The wrath in the Tribulation is going to be far worse than even the worst things you note however.
The end state that was promised after the prophesied events has not come about. We are not living in everlasting righteousness, among other things. Dig a bit deeper in the Scriptures and you might learn that things are not as simple as you think. Or remain ignorant. The writers you note are, and I have already read their material in the past.
Disillusioned,
The “movements” you note were quite a while ago. You can also see quite a bit of foolishness in many churches, so it is not just charismatics. Dalrock covers many foolish things that run throughout. Humans are human and do human things. God’s Word remains above it all and focusing on that is the proper path, yet few really push that to the detriment of society.
Dale,
Perhaps some older families are mostly debt free, but that is not what I have seen. Of course even I could let a daughter stay in my extra bedroom(s), but that would be far different than providing cushy support.
On the other topic, the saint prayers was in place long before modern times, so that would be a different issue. It may favor some things you note, but it was not the cause of the modern problems.
If you want to read a horrifying tale of how deeply feminism has warped Pentecostal Christianity, I suggest reading “The Emasculated Christian and the Prophetess Wife” on the Thinking Housewife blog. Really scary stuff.
@ MD,
“Serious question… I’m interested in finding a socially and politically conservative Christian church.’
Consider a Family Integrated Church.
https://ncfic.org/network/
Yoda says:
July 8, 2017 at 11:45 am
Made me smile.
@Kevin: it’s odd, the higher ups in the Assemblies are feminist, but they don’t exercise much control over individual congregations so not all churches are feminist. If I understand it correctly, a pastor has to subscribe to their 16 fundamental truths to be ordained, but there is nothing in those about female pastors. An individual congregation is fairly independent.
However, in the last 20 years at least there has been a big push for everyone to accept women as pastors, so the larger organization is doomed.
It’s strange, I have attended Baptist churches that were more feminist than the Assemblies churches I’ve attended, but it’s more in the background there. I expect them to accept female pastorship soon, especially after this last conference where they denounced the Alt-Right. It just shows how vulnerable to entryism they are.
I have despaired of finding a good church. It’s enough if I can meet with some good individual Christians.
If the “front lines” of ministry consists of quietly making sammiches I’m in total agreement.
hear! hear!
On the bright side, Grady is getting destroyed in the comment section of his article.
I was raised Pentecostal. The drivel that passes for charismatic Christianity in “Charisma” does not represent our tradition well. Half their magazine is taken up with prosperity heretics like Kenneth Copeland. It is very sad to watch the Pentecostal church trade its spiritual riches for filthy lucre. That is also why they pander to women. Follow the money.
Not to derail the conversation, but it looks like any average woman who wants to marry can find a husband in no time, as shown here.
Yes, and this has always been the case. The problem is that women today are averse to the idea of putting even minimal effort or self-sacrifice into the game (and minimal is really all that is required of them). As deti and others hereabouts have pointed out endlessly, what women do, or more accurately, DON’T do, is more important and indicative of reality than what they say.
Bottom line: any woman who SAYS she wants to get married, but who is doing nothing to make it happen either 1) doesn’t REALLY want to get married, or, 2) has standards and expectations that are stratospherically unrealistic. Period.
I’m pretty certain Christians will be present to endure the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation may not begin with any particular fanfare, but those who are watching will see it. World events and changes leading up to it may often happen slowly, gradually, subtly, and may not always be “in your face”. Most people will not even see it coming. I think that’s the point.
I’m pretty certain the outpouring of God’s wrath is not intended for His own people. Why would He pour out wrath upon His own people? I suppose there may be some temporal overlap of the Great Tribulation and the outpouring of God’s wrath.
I don’t know. It’s just my own limited understanding at this time.
“They presuppose that since the Holy Ghost is God Himself, anything He says to them must be correct and the Word of God Himself! So it is at the same level as the Bible! So there is no need to read the Bible.”
I had to respond to this.
Charismaniacs are correct the Holy Ghost is God Himself, and He is. He is the third Person of the Trinity.
The problem is that too many Charismaniacs attribute their feelings and thoughts to the Holy Spirit. Some emotion they feel is a “leading” of the Holy Spirit. Something they think/rationalize is the Holy Spirit “speaking” to them or giving them a “word of knowledge”. Something they believe is a “prophecy the Spirit gave” them and “told [them] to say.”
“I feel this. Therefore, this is my Holy Spirit’s ‘leading’.”
“The Holy Spirit told me to tell you…”
“My Holy Spirit led me to….”
It’s all non-biblical bullshit.
Does the Holy Spirit move and operate in the world today? Yes. Does He move in the ways these Charismaniacs believe he does? No.
Samuel Hancock @ July 7, 2017 at 6:39 pm:
“Gunner Q. I would be very interested in your reasons for believing that God acted publicly during the American Revolution.”
For example, the Battle of Bunker Hill at the war’s start. The British Navy were unable to effectively bombard the Americans’ position because the Mystic River happened to be the only river in the area they hadn’t charted in advance. Simultaneously, the British Army brought the wrong size cannonballs for their land artillery. Without this supporting fire, a ragtag militia was able to bloody the most powerful military of the time.
Then the Battle of Long Island. It was a bad defeat for the Americans and the British should have ended the war there on Aug. 29, 1776, having our army surrounded. However, unseasonable dense fog rolled in and the entire American army was able to escape across the river despite British warships and soldiers being “barely a musket’s shot away”.
Dorchester Heights was another example of freak weather not only ruining British plans, but enabling American cannon to be swiftly brought in from 300 miles away.
General Washington should have been killed in the preceding French-Indian War. He was pretty much the only field officer to survive. As he wrote to his brother John, “But by the all-powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability or expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat, and two horses shot under me, yet escaped unhurt, although death was leveling my companions on every side of me.”
Benedict Arnold’s treachery, which would also have destroyed Washington, was only discovered when his British contact, Major John Andre, was randomly stopped and searched three separate times by a sentry patrol. Upon finding incriminating maps in Andre’s boot heel, they sent warning to Arnold, not knowing he was part of the plot. But visiting John Jay was given the message first.
Jay (eventually the first Supreme Court Chief Justice) later wrote “This glorious revolution … distinguished by so many marks of the Divine favor and interposition … in a manner so singular, and I may say miraculous, that when future ages shall read its history they will be tempted to consider a great part of it as fabulous. … Will it not appear extraordinary … like the emancipation of the Jews from Egyptian servitude.” per wnd.com.
And for honorable mention, in the following War of 1812:
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-tornado-that-stopped-the-burning-of-washington/
A skeptic would call these unlikely opportunistic coincidences. I would call it divine intervention. All of these had many witnesses, ergo they’re public.
If you mean “Elijah on Mount Carmel” public then you have to go back to the Scottish Reformation.
OT, the alt-Righters among us may enjoy this quote of John Jay’s: “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
@ GunnerQ
You make a good case. Prayer certainly has a lot to do with it. Whether one, two, a number, or hoards of prayer-life Christians, God can and does do seemingly miraculous things. They’re miraculous to us, but they’re quite normal for God, I guess. Whatever it is that God gives we prayer-life Christians to pray upon, He can and does work into the mix. Very good comments as usual mate. I enjoy them.
@Dale
. . . Consider how some large organizations, claiming to be Christian, advocate praying to various saints, instead of only to God, as if those saints can intervene for us with God; some of those canonized saints are women.
I don’t think this is a problem. I guess you suggest it is un-Christian to pray to saints/humans. But, honoring mere humans and asking for intercession does not mean we are replacing God, and why can’t they possibly intervene?
Abraham, through his prayers, essentially saves Sodom and Gomorrha by interceding for them by asking God if he would spare the cities if there were just 10 good men inside. (Genesis 18:16-33)
When the Amalekites invaded Israel, Moses, the go-between God and His people, prayed on a mountain top. As long as his arms were up and he prayed, the Israelites would win, but when not, the battle shifted against them. (Exodus 17:11)
More examples can be found in the Bible, but would these mere mortals, who can intercede on Earth through their prayers, suddenly lose their power in Heaven, when they are closest with God? Revelations mentions prayers of saints in Heaven, too.
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelations 5:8)
”For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men. . .
Moses could also be said to be a mediator. I don’t think “mediator” in that sense is all encompassing, but more as that Jesus is the divine link between divinity (God) and humans. It couldn’t possibly be that ONLY Jesus can be the go-between between us and God. (Again, see examples of Moses, Abraham, and even Paul) Paul asked for prayers frequently. If the prayers of those he was writing too were unable to reach God, why would he ask them to pray in the first place for him? (2 Thessalonians 3)
I think they even claim that this woman can forgive sins. . .
I am unaware of any denomination that believes Mary can FORGIVE sins. Some ask for her help and intercession, but not forgiveness. Mary told Jesus to perform his first miracle at the wedding. Someone told her they had no wine, so she relayed that request for help to Jesus. And as explained above with the examples of other humans/saints interceding/praying on Earth and in Heaven, so too can the Mother of Jesus.
Again, none of this is meant to dishonor God. The belief is that the saints are not gods, but if we do experience help, it is through God’s power, not the saints. They merely helped influence, or ask, in a way. If not, was Jacob wrong in praying to an angel? What about the friends of Job, who asked him to prayer for them, too? Were the Jews in Babylon wrong when they asked those still in Jerusalem for their prayers? Was St. Paul wrong?
That may have been a bit long, but I think the aversion to the belief is due to small misunderstandings (such as just to what extent of power the Saints have in forgiving or helping or whatever.) Hope this clears it up a bit more, and maybe just explain the basis for such a belief.
God bless.
Sorry for duplicate post, tried to fit formatting… used the wrong brackets I think. Feel free to delete the other.
‘Bottom line: any woman who SAYS she wants to get married, but who is doing nothing to make it happen either 1) doesn’t REALLY want to get married, or, 2) has standards and expectations that are stratospherically unrealistic. Period.’
Quite!
Snowy,
The biggest problem I see is that the time of Christ’s Return can be know exactly if you know when the Great Tribulation started, violating other Scriptures.
I am not going to worry about it much, but I see plenty of examples how God removed His people before pouring out His wrath that I expect it then too. Believe what you want of course and certainly don’t expect to avoid all trouble, but don’t believe incomplete attempts to explain it away just because they fit preconceived notions.
Deti,
Some charismatic worship is uncomfortable, but completely accurate. Very little is unique to those churches today as well, so most are not that different than those who claim to believe differently. Sad if charismatics really have something unique, but that is the way it is for most today.
@dale,
Interesting take on the saints.
Do you ever ask a fellow Christian (who is alive) to pray for you?
If so, why don’t you just pray to God yourself, instead of relying on a mediator?
Asking saints to pray for you is simply a combination of the practice you already surely do… asking other people to pray for you… combined with a real, liters belief in the communion of saints and the “great cloud of witnesses.”
Just a little note, especially to those seeking a reliable church. I attended the local Scots Presbyterian church for the second time, here in the small town of about 900 population in which I’m presently living. The regular head Pastor was away for my first attendance, but led the second. I’ve been impressed by the wholesomeness of the church, and especially by the Truth of the teachings. A lot of it may have to do with the country setting, away from the influences of the megachurches often found in more urban settings. The Pastor preached the Word faithfully this morning. I couldn’t fault what I heard. The hymns of praise we’re singing are excellent, and I’m enjoying the singing very much. The prayer life in the church is wonderful. It’s somewhat more like what I’d expect a “home church” to be like. I have no idea as yet as to whether or not preaching on issues such as those discussed here on Dalrock are preached just as faithfully. Nor whether those issues are even brought forth. Therefore, I do not yet know of the church’s veracity in these areas. But so far…excellent.
God presents us many paradoxes. I wrote this note on paradoxes some time ago. I think I must have read it somewhere else, and liked it:
A paradox is a seeming contradiction, but it is not a contradiction. For example, the NT sometimes says that Salvation (from the wrath of God) is an accomplished reality, and at other times it’s still in the future…a paradox. Things that on the surface appear to be contradictory, but BOTH ARE TRUE; that’s what a paradox is.
Another example might be how even though the union of our spirit with the Spirit of God/Christ (at regeneration) makes us one Spirit, I am still “me” (I continue to exist as a unique individual), and Christ is still Christ / God is still God. There is union, but distinctiveness at the same time. Not unlike the trinity, and how they operate.
@Canon Rex
>Hope this clears it up a bit more, and maybe just explain the basis for such a belief.
Thanks for the info Canon. All the Biblical examples you gave of people asking others to pray for them involved one person communicating to a second, still-living, person that the first person requests the second person to pray for the first. This is of course reasonable. Even if the first person does not ask, the second can still pray for God’s assistance on behalf of the first. In addition to your examples, I like Matt 5:43-48 which says, “pray for those who persecute you”.
The difference is that these cases all involve speaking/writing to a still-living person, and asking them to pray directly to God. A situation where I pray to some physically-dead person in heaven, asking them to pray to God, has an obvious difference — I am praying to someone other than God.
You correctly point out that a physically-alive person can pray to God for me, with the hint they are being an intercessor (of a kind). Granted, although not in the earth-to-heaven respect that I think 1 Tim 2:5-6 addresses. But still, the only communication going from earth to heaven is through God; the fact I use earthly communication to ask you to pray for me does not change this. Hope that is understandable.
On a separate note, I would guess that you are correct, that people in heaven still are able to pray for God to help those on earth. (Not suggesting we should pray to those physically dead people however, as I am not aware of any Scriptural support for that.) Although at that point, I hope that communication would be “speaking”, not “praying”, as the dead-in-Christ can (I hope) see God face to face regularly, and speak directly with God, unlike the prayers through the veil we have now. Oh, for the day when we can have the veil removed, and have a fully-restored relationship with God 🙂 🙂 🙂
Thank you for the correction that there is no teaching that Mary forgives sin.
I re-read the full chapter of the Rev 5 passage you mentioned. (…they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people…) I was looking for a hint that the incense is related to people who are physically dead, but I see nothing. I suggest the most obvious suggestion is this refers to the prayers of people still physically alive. Although I suppose that is unimportant; even if it referred to prayers from people in heaven, that does nothing to suggest we should be praying to those physically-dead people, asking them to intercede for us.
feeriker said:
>Bottom line: any woman who SAYS she wants to get married, but who is doing nothing to make it happen either 1) doesn’t REALLY want to get married, or, 2) has standards and expectations that are stratospherically unrealistic. Period.
Agreed. I see very few women who actually make a consistent effort to obey God’s commands to women. Their subsequent claims to want a “good” man are therefore rubbish. A good man will only bring an obedient woman (to God and to himself) into his household (Josh 24:14-15, Col 3:18-21, Titus 2:3-5, etc.).
Reblogged this on Patriactionary.
JohnProvidence says:
He sure is!
Hopefully the comments section to his article will shake him up a bit.
Thanks to Frank K, Bee, and Snowy for the recommendations regarding conservative churches. Much appreciated.
On the bright side, Grady is getting destroyed in the comment section of his article.
He sure is!
Hopefully the comments section to his article will shake him up a bit.
Or, just as likely, he’ll delete all of the negative comments and put everyone into moderation, ensuring that such humiliation will never happen again. Churchian prog wusses are infamous for their cowardice in the face of opposition.
You’re welcome, MD. At the Scots Presbyterian church I mentioned, I was happy but a little disappointed with the preaching at my first attendance, where the head Pastor was absent. Everything else was excellent (the praise and worship, etc.). At this stage, it seems the head Pastor is an excellent leader, and he really knows the Word he’s preaching. It will be interesting to see how it goes should he cover the Word as it applies to the issues we talk about on Dalrock.
I have been very skeptical of the church in general for many years. Hence I’ve been absent for many years from the church, choosing to study privately, using the many media we have available to us these days. It’s refreshing to see God is very much alive and well among his people, despite appearances. The head of the serpent has been crushed by Christ. It’s just his tail wagging. The devil is freaking insane, anyway.
FemTwat : “Tech has become another way for men to opporess women.”
Pls delete the comments where the link did not take..
Regarding the FemTwat article, she says, “it reflects the problems that exist in society – including the oppression of women.”
Never have I known a society where women were more entitled, and rather than being oppressed, they actually oppress men. Talk about a total reversal.
With regards to ask saints to pray for you. No evidence that dead or ascended saints heard prayer especially in scripture. Its quite different from asking living people to pray for you.
Only God in his omniscience hears prayers from heaven.
‘Never have I known a society where women were more entitled, and rather than being oppressed, they actually oppress men. Talk about a total reversal.’
They’ve been taught from an early age they are oppressed…they have to keep finding way of keeping that gravy train going. It’s more of a way to brag without having any actual proof to back it up. Compare that with women who live in societies where they actually are oppressed…they aren’t voicing it very much.
‘Agreed. I see very few women who actually make a consistent effort to obey God’s commands to women. Their subsequent claims to want a “good” man are therefore rubbish. A good man will only bring an obedient woman (to God and to himself) into his household (Josh 24:14-15, Col 3:18-21, Titus 2:3-5, etc.).’
And whatever attitude they bring in (obedience or disobedience) is going to be passed on to their children. If they teach them nothing but disobedience through their words and actions…the children are going to do that to their father and God.
Oh these people who cherry pick Scripture and then twist the words to make it agree with their life choice…
‘It’s true that God asks women to submit to their husbands; yet in the same passage in Ephesians, husbands and wives are instructed to submit to each other (see Eph. 5:21).’
Notice they never say the full statement…’and be subject to one another IN THE FEAR OF CHRIST.’
‘Paul taught that married people have authority over each other’s bodies (see 1 Cor. 7:3-4), again stressing the concept of mutual submission.’
And he left off 5…you get the full scope of what needs to be explained.
The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
‘And Peter warned husbands that their prayers would be “hindered” if they do not treat their wives as “fellow heir[s] of the grace of life” ( 1 Peter 3:7 NASB). If wives are fellow-heirs, they are equals!’
Except the fact he forgot that Peter said they are the weaker sex…which is why husbands are to be more understanding.
‘You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.’
‘Paul introduced a radical concept: “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it” (Eph. 5:25). This is the opposite of a cocky, macho attitude. A husband who loves Jesus will get out of his recliner and help with the dishes, play with the children and share the burden of family responsibilities. A husband’s love should be sacrificial.’
Yes now tell me where feminism fits into this statement. If a wife loves Jesus shouldn’t she be doing this?
‘ Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.’
Stuff like this is easy to dismiss and make fun of but it is a broadening sign of spiritual rot. When you realize that as more traditional denominations and traditions like Baptists and Presbyterians are either shrinking or overly concerned with virtue signaling their opposition to the “alt-right” and Pentecostalism is growing, especially outside of the West, with their reliance on extra-biblical revelation, the future is looking pretty sketchy. Who needs the Bible when I can “decree” that I received a “word of prophecy” authorizing my daughter to usurp the role of men because she is my little princess and wants to preach? “Prophecy” and “spiritual gifting” unmoored from Scripture gave us mormonism and so many other aberrant theological systems and the flavor of the day is Pentecostalism.
“The biggest problem I see is that the time of Christ’s Return can be know exactly if you know when the Great Tribulation started, violating other Scriptures.”
This is one of the reasons why I subscribe to the Pre-Trib theory. The Lord said that the timing of His return couldn’t be pinpointed. Most scholars agree that the final seven years begins with the Antichrist’s revealing, so if the Mid- or Post-Trib theories were correct, then all you’d have to do is count 3 1/2 or 7 years after his rise to know when Christ would return.
“Compare that with women who live in societies where they actually are oppressed…they aren’t voicing it very much.”
Earl, the men who do the oppressing in those countries and cultures aren’t White, so Feminists give them a free pass.
@Dale
Ah. I see what you mean. So the question becomes is there a scriptural example of prayers between alive AND the dead?
I am aware of an instance in the Book of Maccabees. The former high priest (Onias) and the prophet Jeremiah (both are dead) appeared to Judas Maccabeus in a vision before battle.
The spirit (?)/vision form of Onias said that Jeremiah prays for Jerusalem in Heaven. Here we have a mortal human, in some form, communicating with others in the afterlife and being helped in battle.
Now some may reject this apocrypha/deuterocanon book, however it could be said that this does show the Hebrew people did believe in the possibility of saintly/human intercession, because even if not believed to be divinely inspired, or even fictional, it highlights Hebrew beliefs on the subject by including it in the story.
Further, Mary could talk with the angel Gabriel. And Angel Raphael told Tobias he heard his prayers and delivered his message to God. (Though that is also apocrypha/deuterocanon, but again, something could be said of the Hebrew belief). Anways, Paul does hint in 1 Corinthians 6 that the saints and men will judge the angels. “Do you not know that we are to judge angels—to say nothing of ordinary matters.” It appears saints are “higher up” so to speak than the angels. So if communicating snd the intercession if angels is possible, why not with the saints?
Of course, this does not have to mean the saints are gods. It was through God that the saints/humans could deliver the message. Just like with the angels, it was through God’s power that He lets it happen. Why couldn’t it work in reverse? It is through God’s power prayers go back and forth. I don’t think anyone believes it is actually the saints’ powers that do it. I certainly don’t.
Though of course, I hope I will see God face to face, too!
God bless.
@Earl
>And whatever attitude they bring in (obedience or disobedience) is going to be passed on to their children.
This is one reason why I find it so frustrating when “Christians” advocate that I take one of the church women who are living in visible rebellion. She is a “church girl”, so therefore supposedly good marriage material, right? But as you say, the mother will pass on her rebellion to my children. Not good.
@Canon Rex
You are already aware of why (some) Christians do not accept Book of Maccabees as Scripture, so we’ll leave that. You point out that it may illustrate that (at least some) Jews believed they could effectively pray to someone other than God. While that is a good point, the Jews also, at various points, believed in worshiping Ashtorah, worshiping Baal, and worshiping the gods of Egypt. So I would be reluctant to take what some Jews believed as a solid basis.
(Admittedly, that is the same weakness with the Luke passage I mentioned, re Pharisees believing only God can forgive sins. I cannot think of a verse that explicitly says so off the top of my head, although all passages that talk about forgiveness involve God, and no one else, other than the substitutionary sacrifice such as animals or God the Son.)
>Just like with the angels, it was through God’s power that He lets it [messages/communication] happen. Why couldn’t it work in reverse?
Good point; we see also in Daniel that God is able to send an angel as a messenger to Daniel. I am sure you can see the difference between God sending a messenger boy, of whatever kind, and Daniel or Mary praying to that messenger boy after it has left and returned to heaven.
But if you wanted to say that the Daniel and Mary examples show humans communicating with the angels, while the angel is visible and on earth, I would have to agree. If a person is only praying to or communicating with the angle while that angel is on earth and visibly there in front of them, that is one situation. I do not those praying to saints/angels restrict themselves to only that situation however.
>Why couldn’t it work in reverse?
This is reasoning by conjecture. There is Biblical evidence for God initiating the use of angels as messeger boys. There is no evidence for the reverse. Similarly, there is evidence that God saves us from sin, but no evidence that God needs us to save God from sin.
Actually, now that I am thinking about it, even in cases where God sent an angel, the only messages I remember are the ones sent from God. Daniel got a message from the angel, but Daniel inconsiderately did not give the angel a return message to God. Ditto with Mary’s visit; the communication was from God to Mary (via angel), and also Mary expressing doubt to the angel (Luke 1:34) and getting the angel’s response, but there was no request by Mary to pass any message or request on to God when the angel returned. These people did not even request the angel to pass on a “thank you” 🙂 So even when living people do see angels in the Bible, there is no request for a heaven-ward petition. Interesting. Thanks for the thought-provoking topic.
A better example would be King Saul summoning (and therefore initiating communication with) the spirit of Samuel. But since Scripture forbids this practice (using seers), it cannot be used as a basis for our practices.
God bless.
@Dale
True. Though another confusing part would be, what do we mean when an angel is “on earth”?
I remember when I was in a comparative religions class in high school, we watched The Bible series from the History channel. The directors would portray God’s angels as actual human actors who appeared in cloaks and would physically talk with the other people. Obviously, these appearances and actions of the angels could be up to interpretation. The director most likely had to choose this way to adequately convey the message in a cinematic and visual context.
But in reality, who knows what happened? Did Gabriel actually appear to Mary ON Earth physically? In her mind? Was he still technically in Heaven or in a spiritual realm?
I like what you brought up! Good discussion.
But in reality, who knows what happened?
We do, because the Bible made it clear. No room for error there.
Did Gabriel actually appear to Mary ON Earth physically?
Yes, he did. Again, because the Bible made it clear. We don’t have to read meanings where none exists.
In her mind? Was he still technically in Heaven or in a spiritual realm?
No, it wasn’t in her mind. And no, he wasn’t in heaven or in some spiritual realm. Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary physically. She saw him with her two eyes, the same way she could see any other human being. She talked to him, and he responded, the same way any two people talked to each other. Again, the Bible made it clear that that was exactly what happened.
We’d save ourselves a lot of headaches if we simply read the written word, and BELIEVE it.
That is why the followers of Christ are called BELIEVERS.
The Bible wasn’t written to be tortured, questioned or with the intentions of the authors to be second-guessed. We simply read it. Understand it. Believe it. And obey it. And we’ll get the benefits. Kids can read the bible and understand it, if they read it with an open and simple mind.
The authors did not mean to write a complicated subject matter, using a difficult-to-understand language. Most of them were uneducated, cattle farmers, fishermen, tax collectors (modern day office secretaries and the like), etc. None of them was a linguistic professor; only few were highly educated. Moses “was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians”, and Paul learned under Gamaliel to become a Pharisee. Luke was a physician. Other than that, most of the other authors had the equivalent of high school education or less.
I think we’ll gain much from the book if we read each passage as it is.
infowarrior,
We know very little about exactly how things are in heaven, especially now. I don’t see any evidence they can actively see what is going on in the earth. Perhaps they can, but any believe of such is built on speculation, nothing else.
It is odd why some want to pray to a human rather than God. I would bet most don’t really know God and thus feel the need for someone in the middle. Would Saint XYZ have an even harder time doing all the praying they are asked to do, since they are human, rather than God who is God?
Chris,
I agree. The problem some are really fighting is the foolish idea that Christians will never see trouble that some holding the Pre-Trib position have unfortunately embraced, counter to reality. We will have plenty of tribulation, just not the Great Tribulation.
Canon,
It wasn’t accepted as Jewish Canon either, so it just shows that someone wrote that at some point in the past. Nothing in the Pentateuch supports that position, nor the rest of the Old Testament books that are accepted by Jews and Christians.
Building a doctrine on that would be bit dangerous, though it clearly has been done.
Anyone can talk to an angel that appears to them. We have no evidence Mary talked with any angel after that. She may have or may not have, but nothing in the Scriptures says that.
I am not sure who the Angel Raphael is. I have never read of him. Sounds a bit like the Harold Angel that appeared to the shepherds to announce the birth of Jesus. (Yes, that is a joke, they were “herald angels” for those who can’t see a joke.)
Dale,
It is not clear whether this was really Samuel or not. I have heard teachings both ways and I am not 100% certain myself. Some things argue strongly against it being the real Samuel rather than just a demon imitating him. We are not certain as it doesn’t say for certain. It says what it appeared to be, and we need to leave it at that and not build a doctrine on it.
Canon,
Of course he did. The Scriptures have plenty of other cases of dreams, etc. Taking a clear physical visitation and making it spiritual shows a willingness to ignore what is clear.
That said, you are free to believe what you will. One of the reasons I left the RCC years ago was because I began to value the Scriptures more than tradition. Others clearly have not followed that path and I would not expect it from you either.
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@ BillyS:
“Some charismatic worship is uncomfortable, but completely accurate. Very little is unique to those churches today as well, so most are not that different than those who claim to believe differently. Sad if charismatics really have something unique, but that is the way it is for most today.”
I don’t understand this comment. Are you saying that charismatic worship is scriptural,or not scriptural? Are you saying that what is unique to what Charismaniacs believe (exuberant feelings-based worship; speaking in tongues as the sole evidence of Holy Spirit baptism; heavy use of “prayer language”; and emphasis on public use of I Cor. 12 spiritual gifts) is good or bad?
feeriker says:
July 9, 2017 at 1:16 am
I just checked now and so far he [J. Lee Grady] hasn’t deleted the negative comments, which by the way make up the vast majority of comments. This is to his credit. Even Rollo’s remarks are still there.
@ J. Lee Grady: If your reading this blog I would encourage you to spend some time on this blog. And consider the message that is presented by the host and in the comments. Any christian with a basic knowledge of scripture will discover that the truth is the truth, even if it is contrary to what you hold dear.
Sunday afternoon entertainment:
“Porn featuring violence against women is also extremely popular among women. It is far more popular among women than men. I hate saying that because misogynists seem to love this fact. Fantasy life isn’t always politically correct.” ~ Google researcher Seth Stephens-Davidowitz
http://dailycaller.com/2017/07/05/google-researcher-porn-featuring-violence-against-women-is-more-popular-among-women-than-men/
Oscar:
More proof of women’s humanity. More proof of the dark underbelly of women’s sexuality.
If there’s anything that should cause men to knock women from that pedestal, this is it.
@Dave and BillyS
First, please excuse my ignorance on the subject of how exactly the angel appeared to Mary (I did not remember off hand). I did check however to make sure, and the fact Gabriel took the form of a man is RCC teaching. To claim scripture was not valued by the RCC isn’t true here, it was simply my mistake. My apologies. BillyS, I hope you find happiness in your religous/scriptural journey. I will continue to learn about my faith, thank you.
Now, I just have to add that nowhere does anything prohibit praying to God as well. And if you think there is shaky ground to have a doctrine on the possibility. That is your choice. You can research the Revelations 5 verse I mentioned, where it appears elders (humans) IN Heaven offer up the prayers of the saints still alive, plus the implication of Paul’s words on saints being above angels, and anything else mentioned. If it’s wrong to hold a belief on a doctrine unless it is explicitly defined, I think lots of Christians are in trouble.
Once again, apologies for any misunderstandings and God bless.
@ BillyS et al.
Yes, you are right regarding the events leading up to Christ’s millennial kingdom. I’ve revisited my research on prophecy, and you are right.
There is no place in the Scriptures for the church / the saints who are alive on earth at the time to enter into or endure the great tribulation. This is because Christ’s return is divided into two phases separated in time, and between which the great tribulation takes place.
At the first phase, the dead in Christ rise from their graves, then the translation saints also rise, all in the air, to meet with and join Christ. Christ doesn’t touch the ground. We all depart. This is what’s commonly called “the rapture”.
The “Jewish Remnant” or 144, 000 sealed ones of Rev. 7:1-3, will be preserved through the great tribulation. The great tribulation takes place on earth, over a seven year period.
At the second phase, at the end of the seven year tribulation period on earth, Christ returns to touch down on earth at the Mount of Olives with his saints. This is what’s referred to as “the revelation” phase.
A lot happens in both heaven and on earth during the seven year period. And a lot happens after.
See:
http://www.preservedwords.com/disptruth/contents.htm
The discussion here is always well worth the time spent. Thanks, y’all.
Off Topic
For some excellent acoustic guitar and singing, check out Ian Moss’s (2007) album “Let’s All Get Together”, especially the Cold Chisel song on it, “When The War Is Over”. Mossy was lead singer, backing vocalist, and sometimes lead vocalist with Cold Chisel. He’s had a prolific solo career since Chisel, as has Barnesy. I’ve seen him perform live. Highly recommended.
And for some excellent Aussie standup comedy, check out Carl Barron’s “Whatever Comes Next” (2005) where he performs live at Her Majesty’s Theatre, Ballarat. It’s an old one but a very good one. Prepare to be in stitches.
Deti,
I don’t understand this comment. Are you saying that charismatic worship is scriptural,or not scriptural? Are you saying that what is unique to what Charismaniacs believe (exuberant feelings-based worship; speaking in tongues as the sole evidence of Holy Spirit baptism; heavy use of “prayer language”; and emphasis on public use of I Cor. 12 spiritual gifts) is good or bad?
I believe speaking in tongues is perfectly valid today. Some certainly do abuse it, but a meeting of believers, which is what most church services should be, is a very appropriate place for that as I read the Scriptures. I know some who are otherwise similar to my views disagree.
That said, I find very few services, even in “charismatic” churches have such practices today. It is not surprising to find that very few speak in tongues in a church that claims to believe that is part of the proper Christian experience. Most are just like any other mega church today, even if they are smaller. A high intensity “worship band” and the same batch of songs played in churches that don’t speak in tongues ever.
Does that help?
Canon,
I am not that worried, I am just a firm “Sola Scriptura” guy. The story of Gabriel’s visit to Mary is consistent with other such visits, including to Abraham, Daniel, etc. That is why I believe he was appearing in a way that was a human-like form. I have no idea how much flash he had, but I suspect more than those who visited Abraham prior to Sodom’s destruction.
I find praying to saints rather dumb on the level I noted. Would you plead your case before the judge who could act on it or someone who just worked in the court building, for example? God can listen to any number of requests at the same time, so He is always available. Jesus also indicates a firm desire to fellowship with us. Many who pray to saints are either trying to exploit a system they see or are afraid of praying directly to the Father in the Name of Jesus. That is what I meant by skipping the middleman stuff I mentioned earlier. I am not certain you can really talk to the middleman, but why do that, even if you can, if you can talk straight to the One who is in charge?
Hope that helps. This is not meant to be a huge debate area on these topics so hopefully Dalrock won’t slap me too much!
Snowy,
That tends to be my view (I didn’t review the diagram that closely, but I have seen enough of them over the years), but others do definitely disagree. Some do believe it all ended in AD 70, in spite of serious problems with that. A few things did fit, but all did not. I find that God often applies prophecy several times, as He did with several things that applied in the past.
This too is off topic for this blog and I have stopped studying a whole lot on the stuff since I have been around it for over 40 years. I focus more on “occupying until He comes” rather than what all will happen at that time. I know what I am convinced of, but worrying about it won’t impact anyone for the positive as far as I can see.
My ex-wife was convinced the end is near and was still all excited about this, and still went through with the divorce, so clearly believing it doesn’t stop unrighteousness in women, unfortunately.
@CanonRex
Although the contents of the prayers are scantly known. For all we know they may be presenting petitions all addressed to God directly. We cannot really make a judgment based on that whether it really is addressed to saints to pray for then or not. Personally I think if one doesn’t have the necessary information its more safe to assume that it did not happen or exist although worthy of investigation.
@BillyS
Whatever human failings exist. Its worthy of note if such failings are common enough as well as of a particular type that it may indicate a pattern perhaps a fault of the idea or organization either as a result of weakness or a foundational flaw. While it may be mere coincidence it may have more under the surface.
Take for example how whenever Muslims are above a certain % of population terrorist attacks and problems increase. Now if there is only few example of this then it may be typical human failings but if it happens again and again now there may actually be a problem with that religion. Healthy ideas and organization suppress human failing and corrects them when they occur ASAP. It still happens but they are comparatively superior to others when you look at the data.
Off Topic:
One tends to take the norms of ones youth for Universal Norms, and as such when one is shocked by something different it is difficult to know whether one is dealing with a changed norm or whether ones moral disapproval is right. I was therefore curious as to what the readers at this blog think of the following:
Last weekend my friend informed me as follows: that getting up on Sunday morning (he had arrived home very late the previous evening) and about to enter the bathroom, the bathroom door opened and a twenty-something male previously unknown to my friend stepped forth. This it transpired was the boyfriend of his Nineteen year old daughter and they had clearly spent the night together in her bedroom. This is not the first time I have heard from an acquaintance of mine of a son or daughter spending the night in their parents home in the arms of their boy/girlfriend.
As recently as the Millennium when I was invited to stay by my girlfriend’s parents home I slept in a separate bed from my girlfriend and frankly would have felt uncomfortable doing otherwise. Equally I had been invited whereas in my friends case, he, the master of the house – the man paying the bills – had not even been informed of let alone asked for permission to treat his home as an unpaid open-borders air-bnb. It might also be the case that his wife (to whom he is not speaking) gave permission but I say she has no right to do so without his direct approval to so act.
It occurs to me that this is the natural outcome of ‘sleep-overs’ – unknown in my boyhood. I don’t like it. Would this licentiousness be tolerated in Christian America?
My friend, by the way, is a Calvinistic Christian and his wife’s father was a Christian (non-conformist as we say here – rather than established church) Minister.
No, Opus. It occurred once in my home when, at my waking I discovered my oldest had a boy in her room. I summoned her and told her to go immediately and usher him out or within a couple of minutes i would do so myself. She preferred the less embarrassing way and sent him out. To my knowledge it never happened again.
To get around the commandments to women in the NT, do these feminist preachers just assume books like Timothy and Titus are pseudepigraphal? It’s interesting that Marcion, an orthodox Bishop later excommunicated for heresy, formed an early canon of Scripture c. 140 around the Gospel of Luke and ten of the canonical Pauline epistles, excluding 1–2 Timothy and Titus.
@Opus. Look up “bundling” in Amish culture:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/amish/am07.htm
@BillyS
” I am not that worried, I am just a firm “Sola Scriptura” guy. The story of Gabriel’s visit to Mary is consistent with other such visits, including to Abraham, Daniel, etc. That is why I believe he was appearing in a way that was a human-like form. I have no idea how much flash he had, but I suspect more than those who visited Abraham prior to Sodom’s destruction.”
True. I’ll avoid any Sola Scriptura debates at the moment; I understand many will require scriptural evidence to really be convinced and I see your point of it being consistent with other visits.
” I find praying to saints rather dumb on the level I noted. Would you plead your case before the judge who could act on it or someone who just worked in the court building, for example? God can listen to any number of requests at the same time, so He is always available. Jesus also indicates a firm desire to fellowship with us”
I think it will vary by person, but I pray to God much more frequently than to saints. I think some people pray to saints because often they are wishing to emulate the saint or be helped in some certain situation. For example, one might be looking for more courage, so he may pray to one of the martyrs. Of course you could ask God too, but perhaps it can help you focus if you have a real historical example of a saint you wish to emulate. And if one believes the saints CAN hear prayers, it would make no difference between asking someone else to pray for us on Earth.
@infowarrior1
Although the contents of the prayers are scantly known. For all we know they may be presenting petitions all addressed to God directly. We cannot really make a judgment based on that whether it really is addressed to saints to pray for then or not. Personally I think if one doesn’t have the necessary information its more safe to assume that it did not happen or exist although worthy of investigation
I think one of the arguments is even if those prayers were addressed to God, the saints/elders in Heaven are still offering up those prayers so they would (perhaps?) Know the contents, for prayers are not like envelopes. Not like they’re sealed or anything so the deliveryman doesn’t know what’s inside.
Indeed, I guess it is hard to say for sure without taking some sort of leap of faith. I will surely look into it more.
God bless.
Canon,
Why not just ask the Father that He work in you the characteristics you want? Coming to me in person and asking me to help you be stronger in technical topics would not be nearly as effective as asking God to help you in that area. I may be able to point you to some things, but that is going to be limited since my mastery there has been largely built-in for me. If I just go and then ask the Father, what have you gained? That would be true whether I was on this earth or in Heaven. Why not just ask the Father directly rather than adding a middleman?
Bottom line: any woman who SAYS she wants to get married, but who is doing nothing to make it happen either 1) doesn’t REALLY want to get married, or, 2) has standards and expectations that are stratospherically unrealistic. Period.’
“Pray as if there’s a God – work as if there’s not.”
@BillyS
Of course you could. But perhaps some find it easier if they have a real historical example to emulate. “God give me courage.” Well… what happens? Does God magically make you more courageous? Perhaps he could. Or could you pray to a certain martyr… “St. XYZ please help me emulate your courage [in specific way like you] and pray for me.”
I’m sure it helps with introspection too. For example, if you really wanted to be a pro football player, would you ask a head coach “Make me a better football player?” Or could you say “Hey Offensive Line coach can you help me with my footwork” or whatever other specific. Either may eventually get you there, and not like you can’t ask both, but sometimes, God isn’t a cosmic spiritual ATM. You can’t just say a few prayers here, some there, and be like “alright God grant my prayers now!” Being a Christian and growing towards God often means self improvement, and if focusing on the life of a holy saint in a specific way helps, I have nothing against it.
If one goes off the belief that the saint can be prayed to and can hear you, it’s really no different from asking someone on Earth to keep you in their prayers. Of course pray to God, but get as many people praying for you as possible! Prayer can work wonders.
Thanks Empath for putting me straight – and to Damn Crackers for the curious link.
Canon,
Your assumption includes that the individual you are attempting to contact can contact you back. I find it much harder to believe that a human, “saint” or not, can do more for us in our day-to-day lives than God can.
How do you know that saint/martyr has done anything for you? That is why you discounted asking the Father directly. I can stand on His Word in certain areas (such as if I ask Him for wisdom). I have no such promise when praying to a dead human.
Assuming the football analogy, I would rather petition the commissioner of football who I have been promised an audience with than send blind letters to a specific coach who may or may not even get those letters. (This analogy fails however, as the football commissioner is a dweeb.)
God is able to make any number of simultaneous discussions. A dead human is not. We are told that Jesus “ever lives to make intercession for us” while we have no such promise from a dead human. Going with the sure thing and right to the top is much more effective.
That is why your football analogy fails. It would imply a mentoring relationship, not action on your behalf. How many millions pray to the popular saint of the day? How many could they pray for themselves if they even got those prayers/communication? Isn’t that elevating men to the status of God?
@Opus: In my neck of the woods, so many men keep a loaded gun within easy reach of their bed that a young man with any sense would hesitate to be stomping around in another man’s house without that man’s knowledge and permission. Lots of premarital sex going on, but “elsewhere.”
@ BillyS
In relation to deti’s query of you regarding Charismaniacs, I’m not understanding you either. Is it or is it not Scriptural for a charismatic church to insist that speaking in tongues is the sole evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit in a believer? And that without the “evidence” of speaking in tongues, a believer does not have the Holy Spirit in them? Notwithstanding the validity or otherwise of speaking in tongues itself.
Regarding prophecy of events in our future, indeed prophecy can have more than one application, or manifestation, so to speak. I don’t think Dalrock minds a little bit of off-topic discussion. I too hadn’t been occupied with prophecy for some time. Indeed one can become obsessed with it to the detriment of Godly living in the present. However, it has been beneficial to me to revisit the topic a little, as prophecy does have some bearing on our attitudes to how we live in the present. You may do yourself well to have another little look at it. Have a look at this page:
http://www.preservedwords.com/disptruth/chap4-pv.htm
Particularly the sections on “A Practical Doctrine” and “The Blessed Hope”
As to whether or not knowing the doctrine properly would stop unrighteousness in women, I don’t think the two are even related. If your ex-wife had (or has) the Spirit of Christ in her, then she was (or is) the righteousness of Christ. If not, then she was (or is) unrighteous.
BillyS,
I find it much harder to believe that a human, “saint” or not, can do more for us in our day-to-day lives than God can.
Did Moses not help the Israelites in battle against the Amalekites? Did Abraham not, at least temporarily, save Sodom so the just men could escape? Of course, one could say it was still through God. But it was the influence of mere mortals and their prayers that made it happen. And any other example or instance where one could theoretically pray to saints, if something happened, would of course also be because of God’s power.
How do you know that saint/martyr has done anything for you? That is why you discounted asking the Father directly. I can stand on His Word in certain areas (such as if I ask Him for wisdom). I have no such promise when praying to a dead human.
Can I reverse that and ask how do you know God has done anything for you? Many times I have had “prayers unanswered” (thankfully, sometimes, too)! Though maybe I misunderstand your question here. And often, we can only have faith, just like in whatever other doctrine we have.
God is able to make any number of simultaneous discussions. A dead human is not. We are told that Jesus “ever lives to make intercession for us” while we have no such promise from a dead human. Going with the sure thing and right to the top is much more effective.
Honestly, I couldn’t be sure what it would be like for a human to hear prayers in Heaven (more in next paragraph)…
That is why your football analogy fails. It would imply a mentoring relationship, not action on your behalf. How many millions pray to the popular saint of the day? How many could they pray for themselves if they even got those prayers/communication? Isn’t that elevating men to the status of God?
I think you are implying that a saint in Heaven could not hear millions of prayers and then pray for those on Earth, because only God can do that? First, I’d like to reference the Revelations 5 verse. Again, some may interpret it in different ways (which is ok, I’m just pointing out where the belief may find support and come from) but if this is the “correct” interpretation, the men in Heaven are offering up the prayers of those on Earth to God. How can one offer up a non-physical message? It’s not a sealed envelope. Even if it was intended to go to God, the prayer still went to the (dead) saint first, or they somehow got it first.
Ok, let’s put aside Revelations 5 for now. I believe it has already been discussed already, and for all we know, what if prayers really are like sealed envelopes?! How do we know for sure they can be heard/available by the saints? Is it true that doing so would elevate someone into the place of God?
Luke 15:10 (KJV): “Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.”
This Luke verse in the Parable of the Lost Coin says the angels rejoice when a sinner repents. What is repentance? It is contriteness, a true change of heart. How can one know the interior of someone’s heart, their true feelings, (not just what they say or do. Anyone can say “oh I’m sorry on the outside)? Wouldn’t doing so require the ability to know someone’s thoughts and/or prayers? I think it is clear, a being in Heaven that is aware of someone’s prayers/feelings is not somehow elevated to the status of God.
While this passage does speak only of angels, I believe another passage mentioned earlier in this discussion hinted at perhaps saints being able to do the same, or even judge angels. And anyways, the point is, saints having the ability to do so does not necessarily mean they have taken on God’s role, for we have a Gospel passage saying someone who is not God being able to do the same.
Of course, any response one might get from praying to a saint, or some outcome, would of course be done through God’s power. Now, whether or not going “straight to the top” is more effective, I could not say. Nor do I think anyone could. As I said, I myself have had numerous “prayers unanswered.” God works in mysterious ways, and he often uses others as instruments. And once more, I have no problem praying to both. The more prayers, the better!
God bless.
Canon,
Some quick, likely final, answers/comments:
The examples you note (Moses, Abraham) were all physically on this earth. No one asked Abraham to intercede for Sodom either, so the analogy falls short.
How do you know the saint has done anything for you as well? I will trust God has since I trust His word. Both require faith in the unseen. God’s Word is seen however and can be relied on.
My point about the football analogy is that God can handle an unlimited number of contacts at the same time, a human (even in heaven) cannot.
You also seem to think that more people praying is better. I don’t mind support, but God and I together are a majority, no matter what, as the saying goes. Time spent praying to a saint could instead be spent in fellowship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and is promised a result.
I will rely on what is clear, not wishful thinking. Take whatever approach you want!