Larry Kummer posted a comment with links to the entire series he has created from our discussion on his blog, but since the comment contained multiple links it went into moderation. Unfortunately by the time I saw and released the comment it was no longer recent enough to display in the comment section of the side bar. I haven’t had the time to go through the more recent posts but I want to allow readers to see the handy set of links that he shared.
——————————————Begin Larry Kummer’s Comment————————————-
Here is the series Dalrock mentions in this post. “Enough analysis! What are possible solutions to the gender wars?”
A return to traditional values.
Men finding individual solutions.
Coming next week, my answer: A counter-revolution in society.
Dalrock posted some powerful comments to my first two posts. I posted our dialog as a series of posts. This was a useful pause before writing my concluding post, as I learned much from his comments.
An expert discusses individual solutions.
Discussing women’s responses to men’s solutions.
An expert sees wonders ahead!
An expert: respect is a key battleground in the gender wars.
An expert’s insight: Game is toxic to feminism.
An expert describes the road to respect for men.
As Dalrock said about this series in an earlier post, this series is written for a general audience. They get their information from the mainstream media. So they know little about the gender wars – the revolution brought about by modern feminism, and the reaction to it. That is what I call “dark knowledge”, possession of which makes one see the world differently.
But this series is of value, imo, even to those with sophisticated knowledge about the gender wars. As I said in the first post: enough descriptions of our situation, enough analysis! It is time to coldly analyze the available solutions. Which will work best for us as individuals? Which will work best for America?
Dalrock’s comments to my first two points were, I believe, new ground on seldom-discussed terrain in the manosphere. Especially his comments about respect and values.
This series is, of course, just an early stage look at this vital subject.
Next week I’ll post about what I believe is the next step: social reform, with men standing together to begin a counter-revolution. I lightly touched upon the subject in these posts. The reaction in comments was “we’re weak, we cannot stand together, defeat is inevitable.” I believe all of those statements are wrong.
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At this time, I find it unreasonable to trust these ‘intermediate institutions’. I have volunteered for charities or donated to them only to find out later that they actively encourage the rot in our society. Why would I bother doing 20 hours of research to find out whether or not it is reasonable to donate $10?
When I do look into these charities, they tend to be more opaque than the darkest mega-corps. In the same vein, why donate to a church so that it can sponsor a day-trip for single mothers, by which they encourage more of them?
Similarly, while I might honor or respect fathers for individual acts they do, the choice itself to become a father (or a husband) in America is not one that I can respect, let alone willingly take.
A sacrifice must be taken knowingly, willingly, and toward a purpose to be respectable. Most married men and fathers in the FUSA do not meet those parameters.
As for solutions beyond MGTOW, as it stands, I still operate in the ring of Earth. I am preparing the ground. To act before the time is right is no more wise than to refuse to act when the time is upon you, or to be unready to do so.
One might as well be one of the bridesmaids who kept their lamps lit, but decided to go to the marriage ceremony before the priest and bridegroom were there, and be turned away.
At the present time, Churches lie to me, politicians lie to me, employers lie to me, charities lie to me, and merchants lie to me. I trust them to continue to lie to me.
Anyone but the Lord or a few of my close relations who says to me “follow me, do as I say for your own good” wishes to profit at my expense, and I have no reason to believe I will profit as well. It has been so all my life. Why should I believe that you are any different Larry? Why should I believe that you do not wish to set upon me, and devour me as does the wolf?
I have a straight question for Dalrock.. and I am asking it as a fellow Believer.
Let’s say (for the sake of arguement) that the Lord *permits* the development of artificial wombs. This effectively lowers the cost of male-only-parenting from something astronomical/risky (surrogacy) to a more manageable expense. One within reach of determined middle class employed males
Now add a second what-if.. lots longer lifespans. More time to save and then raise kids.
So that’s two (not unreasonable) bits of scifi. Add to that a resilient (and furious) core of men who, seeing females as basically worthless harlots the vast majority of cases.. opt to mega-MGTOW right away from the nonsense.
Pretty simple scenario.. lifespans extend due to medical advances and artificial womb research “bears fruit”. And men say “Yassssssssss” and finish clipping the apron strings. Women are left alone to sin in peace (or at least without us).
How much trouble are we Going Our Own Way types likely to encounter or create if we get the technology to truly truly Walk Away?
It’s already Game Over with respect to gender reconciliation… but splitting up with artillery, gulags and regiments need not be the future either.
What is the most likely shape of the remainder of society we leave to deal with itself?
I know its highly speculative.. but this sort of entrails-gazing has saved my butt on multiple occasions. Dalrock I know you are rooting for a continued shot at a partnership society. I hope your kids can live in that world.
But others of us wont father kids under the “Women are the Primary Value” Rules and will cheerfully die before doing so. Ditto with the society. It can die before we do so as well.
Your thoughts will be pondered and meditated on.. should you respond.
I read through just about all of Kummer’s pieces, and he made not one mention of what I favor, the Toban Morrison solution to the Catch-22 that is fatherhood by fickle, honorless, post-Christian American women (e.g., the vast majority of them that are biologically still potentially marriageable).
I wonder why? While it of course could never solve the Marriage 2.0 poison that has replaced 1.0 for the nonAmish, it could certainly affect things on the margins (especially if a few famous Alpha men publicly did this). As Dalrock has repeatedly pointed out, the margins are where change happens. That is, it happens there first, and most powerfully, influencing the rest more than is apparent for a long time after.
Luke:
The Toban Morrison solution isn’t favored, I would suspect, because
1) Most men just aren’t going to do this.
2) It might be better for a child to have a single father than a single mother; but it’s best for a child to have both parents.
@Larry
My blog regularly touches on values, respect; as well as the need for social cohesion and then organization. There’s just not a lot of appetite for that yet. And my blog is poorly organized so you’ll miss it if you aren’t there.
As I said to a friend: I’ll be fucking impressed if a Baptist Boomer from San Francisco has good insights on how men can retake ground. But, hey, take your best shot. We’re still in the brainstorming phase.
@Larry Kummer:
The reaction in comments was “we’re weak, we cannot stand together, defeat is inevitable.”
That wasn’t exactly the sentiment I got. I offered you the observation that, based on past performance and history, men banding together for the specific purpose of combatting feminism and staging a formal counterrevolution isn’t going to work, because men don’t work that way, and men aren’t interested in a systemwide solution. Paul Elam’s been at it for at least 10 years now. Others before him have tried it.
Men aren’t going to do this unless you give them something more than the goal of “Defeat Feminism” or even “More Nookie”. Men (and women) just don’t perceive “feminism” or “lack of sex” as an existential threat like Hitler was, or Soviet/communist/Marxist expansion was.
The counterrevolution is now, and it consists of ever-increasing numbers of men making individual decisions, more or less independently of each other.
Cane
can you post links to your blog where you discuss/recommend social cohesion and organization, and what form(s) they should take in your opinion?
Deti, agreed most men won’t ED/GS it sans a wife. That said, most won’t either be voluntary longtime celibates/go MGTOW (at least previous to 2+ decades either as incels or post-frivorce rape). That said, for men with any kind of career at all, it’s easily cheaper than being a BB father that’s frivorce raped. And, what price can be put on avoiding the pain for a man called to fatherhood of losing his family and seeing his children’s life prospects dimmed or even essentially snuffed out by an amoral woman bereft of the strong social, legal, and theological hand it typically historically takes to keep her from moodily destroying the lives of everyone in her family? I’d rather DIE than have my children become impoverished druggie mudsharking high school dropouts with moron bastards.
Re it not being ideal, agreed, and so said many times before. But, that’s not the choice for Christian men neither born Amish nor with access to a time machine (in either direction would work, if it traveled far enough in time). It’s triage, door #1 or door #2 for which parent in most cases now, and this is the best (certainly one of the few legal) ones to make the less-bad choice of the only two parent options. (The rare still-extant Christian, early/faithful/fecund marriage-inclined woman, of course, in most cases can have a two-parent family in almost all cases, of course.)
Think of the Dark Ages cloistered monks in European backwaters who preserved in writing the best of Classic Era knowledge and thought until such time as there was soil for it to sprout in again. That is what I advocate, with wanting a few RP men of the West to keep their lines going, culturally and economically as well as purely genetically, until the West is ready to rise again. A few thousand (ok, millions) more like Donald Trump, Enoch Powell, and the like, and we may yet get there, in your and my lifetimes.
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Cane Caldo,
“As I said to a friend: I’ll be fucking impressed if a Baptist Boomer from San Francisco has good insights on how men can retake ground.”
(1) I’m *from* New England. I *live* in the San Francisco area.
(2) I’m just a reporter. I occasionally do predictions. I’m pretty good at it, although not Nostradamus.
https://fabiusmaximus.com/future/predictions/
Luke,
“I read through just about all of Kummer’s pieces, and he made not one mention of what I favor, the Toban Morrison solution ”
First, some perspective — as the intro says, these look at three classes of solutions, with examples of each. This is not the Britannica Encyclopedia’s definitive analysis. That would be too long and boring to get an audience. Perhaps someone will write it for Wikipedia.
Second, I believe my description of “individual” solutions covers Toban Morrison’s choice of having a surrogate mother for his child. It’s a niche solution.
https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2011/08/12/single_man_wanted_a_child_hired_a_surrogate_had_a_baby.html
@Larry
Duly noted, though it strikes me as worse. But, hey, it will be even more impressive!
@thedeti
I’ll see what I can dig up later. Feel free to look around. There are no specifics, but I talk about living near each other, the need to get together in the flesh, etc. I have met as many of those who would meet with me as I could manage so far. The groups will come about organically out of the efforts of a few individuals.
The counterrevolution is now, and it consists of ever-increasing numbers of men making individual decisions, more or less independently of each other.
I agree, a ‘movement’ within the current framework may make noise, but won’t succeed. The very framework/playing field must be shifted, and that takes an accretion of actions by great numbers over time. It’s how we got to this point to start with.
Can it happen before The End of All Things? I am exceedingly pessimistic. I think a key center of gravity of the enemy is its total control of an educational-system abortion that reliably manufactures ever-growing numbers of Red-Guard SJ warriors working to bring down Western civilization with their every waking breath. Until/unless that system is destroyed, there is no hope.
We’ve located the source of the problem: https://lacomunapink.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/51839427.jpg?w=529
I’ve actually been thinking of adoption of late. I could afford to go the Toby Morrison route even. I have the spare bedroom. I’m not independently wealthy, but I already have the means to afford raising a child. Perhaps, 25 ~ 30 years from now, there will be a study (suppressed of course) that will have a large enough sample size to compare the results of parenthood by single fathers as opposed to single mothers. But even if such a study wasn’t suppressed, could such a thing conquer all the hamsters, or at least most of them? Would women ever allow themselves to recognize a father’s contribution, that it adds up to more than simply shiny baubles on the fingers and ears? Fun to imagine anyways.
Is there any work around in the US, to compensate someone only for the conception of the child and not having to expose yourself to the possibility of divorce? I doubt it, but I’m curious. A man should aspire to be a father, but a good mother is a hard thing to find.
Thom, there have been such studies. Families with only a father do very nearly as well as families with both parents, far, far better than do families with a mother the only parent. The only one-parent families with just a mother parent-wise that do anywhere near as well as father-only families are ones headed by a WIDOW (although still somewhat inferior on average to father-only families). The massive expansion of the welfare system and court awards of chilamony have not significantly altered this. Apparently, as explanation, in widowed families, the father (as an idea) and his values are still held high, unlike the other female-headed families.
Adoption? You have no idea how bad are your prospects. If you can’t get a healthy white infant (and why else adopt), and those are VERY difficult and expensive to acquire, why bother? You’d do better to get a couple who has done as my wife and I who have extra embryos remaining (very common), and line up a clinic and gestational surrogate (agency recommended).
I don’t believe you can change the culture in any meaningful way. I have not noticed that God would want us too. The solution has always been to create communities of Christians, called Churches, of like minded individuals and to spread the Word to those that would hear to the edges of the world.
Our duty has never, ever been to change the world or to be a counter-revolutional. It is to spread God’s Word and to save those we can and bring them to him.
It starts small; local and then outward. Never country or nation wide and then inwards. We need to get back to starting niche groups of like minded principles and keep to them and be a beacon of hope in a corrupted world.
A Bible quote that I believe provides some context.
Gonna back TheDeti as i have in the past … because he “gets” it.
“That wasn’t exactly the sentiment I got. I offered you the observation that, based on past performance and history, men banding together for the specific purpose of combatting feminism and staging a formal counterrevolution isn’t going to work, because men don’t work that way, and men aren’t interested in a systemwide solution. Paul Elam’s been at it for at least 10 years now. Others before him have tried it.”
Agree with Deti and there is ample evidence to support his position, I will give you yet another one. THE BOY SCOUTS … who starting this year allow GIRLS TO JOIN. Every parent. Every father. Who was trying to raise a son according to healthy values should have QUIT. Quit the boy scouts. AND EVISCERATED THE BOY SCOUTS FOR CAVING TO FEMINISTS AND CHANGING THE BY LAWS TO ADMIT GIRLS.
As Deti pointed out and I tried to do to … this has been understood for years … the approach at subverting organizations has been understood. BOY SCOUTS must be forced to accept GIRLS. Then accept faggots. Then lesbians. And then trannies. And then pedos. That’s how it all plays out. The way to stop it … is to never let it get started. GIRLS WANT IN … THEN EVERY MAN ON THE PLANET SHOULD HAVE BOYCOTTED BOY SCOUTS AND PULLED HIS SONS OUT.
So … how many did ? How many will ? Enough to make a difference ???? And there you have you answer. Once penetrated … it cannot be stopped. Or reversed. Recognizing it before it happens … and stopping it before it happens is the best approach. But that doesn’t happen much either. Do we have any safe spaces for men anymore ? SO THE QUESTION IS WHY ??? Because it is not in men’s nature to act that way. Religion does help … gives men the moral authority to resist or make the changes necessary. But that authority is now gone too. its one of the reasons that Christianity was attacked early and often. Most churches these days have turned over their moral authority to the feminist imperative.
The one avenue … that has yet to be explored is to create parallel structures … that enforce the rules that men want. Rules that work. Of course it would be attacked and the leftists would want it destroyed at all costs. Kinda like how Facebook and Youtube is targeting any conservative viewpoint … it must be sought out and destroyed. Lets take this as a example … create a NEW version of the Boy Scouts … that preserves traditional values … restricts leadership by women, restricts membership by women, and… faggots, pedos, etc. Even market it as .. THE NEW BOY SCOUTS … or maybe THE OLD BOY SCOUTS, whatever … doesn’t matter.
What matters is this … creating such an endeavor would almost certainly result in failure. What men have been looking for is a way … a SUCCESSFUL way … to resist or counteract what’s going on. We have found no way that works … so far. And things just keep getting worse. If you’ve got a way that would work … WE ALL WANT TO HEAR IT. But you will get negative feedback. Because what we have seen so far … is just vague hints and it appears to be what has already been tried before and failed. We want and need a new … innovative approach. If you’ve got something like that … I’d love to hear it … me and everyone else who inhabits this part of the internet.
Peace.
The next post in my series is up: “Modern dating: is the only winning move is not to play?”
https://fabiusmaximus.com/2018/03/27/modern-dating-the-only-winning-move-is-not-to-play/
Summary: Radical feminism is bringing American society to a pre-revolutionary situation, as men realize that the new system of gender relations does not work well for them. The next posts describe the mechanisms that will drive the revolt. We can only guess at what comes after that.
This post briefly describes “girls’ Game”. Unlike men’s Game, it is a powerful force in US society today.
Much of this post builds on (and cites) Dalrock’s work.