The U.S. and our allies won the Cold War in part because we had a far superior economic system. The Soviets relied on a quota system enforced by threats of imprisonment. The U.S. and its allies on the other hand relied on an incentive based system. The quota based system works to a degree, but it creates a disincentive for increased productivity. Under a quota based system if you work harder or smarter and produce more, you will find that your quota is quickly raised. No good deed goes unpunished, as your own hard work will always be used against you.
Ironically even as the U.S. was winning the Cold War it was in the process of moving to a quota based system itself. This change happened not on the factory floor, but in the family. In the past our families were marriage based. Men married and lived with their families, and this created an incentive for men to work hard first to signal provider status (to attract a wife) and then to provide for their own families. That men respond to the marriage based system by working harder and smarter is well known, even while economists miss the point. See for example the endless supply of academic papers scratching their heads to figure out why marriage is associated with greater earnings for men but not for women. What is the cause of this mysterious male marriage premium?
Yet while academics are baffled, our family court judges know the answer. They know from experience that when you take away a man’s family you take away much of his incentive to work hard to support that family. When you tell him it isn’t his family anymore, he feels less of a sense of responsibility. Likewise, when you kick a man out of his home, he feels less incentive to work hard to keep paying the mortgage or rent. This is why judges are careful when stripping a man’s family away to assign the man an earnings quota in the form of imputed income. Otherwise, the man is likely to respond to having his home and family ripped away by working like a single man without a mortgage. Like the old Soviet system, the man’s quota is established by his own record of production. If he produces more, his quota will be increased.
I mention this in preface to a post by Dr. Helen titled ‘About 500,000 Young Men Are Missing, and It Isn’t Clear Why ‘. The title is a quote from a Bloomberg article that wonders why young millennial men aren’t working harder:
Though employment rates have been climbing back from the abyss, young men never caught up again. Millennial males remain less likely to hold down a job than the generation before them, even as women their age work at higher rates.
The Bloomberg article uses a familiar trick to personify the trend they are asserting. They introduce Nathan Butcher, who is 25 and not working. Nathan has job opportunities, but isn’t motivated to either start at the bottom and work his way up or to improve his career prospects through education/training, although he talks about wanting to do the latter.
Perhaps not coincidentally, Nathan isn’t a product of our old (marriage based) family model that gave young men an incentive to work hard. As the article explains, he is a product of the new family model, headed by single mothers:
His choosiness could be a generational trait, he allows. His mother worked to support her three kids, whether she liked her job or not.
The implication is that the golden age of responsible single motherhood has passed us by:
“That was the template for that generation: you were either working and unhappy, or you were a mooch,” he said. “People feel that they have choice nowadays, and they do.”
It is more likely that such a golden age never existed. But either way, it is clear that Nathan isn’t motivated to do what it takes to signal provider status and thereby attract a wife:
He’s being selective as he searches for new work because he doesn’t want to grind out unhappy hours for unsatisfying compensation.
“I’m very quick to get frustrated when people refuse to pay me what I’m worth,” he said.
But should we be surprised that Nathan isn’t motivated? We’ve removed the incentives and prestige that once motivated men to work hard to support their families as husbands and fathers. We’ve spent decades teaching men that husbands and fathers are despicable at worst, and at best jokes. All of our entertainment, even product commercials, continuously hammers this message. It isn’t just secular culture either. Christian movies are even worse than secular entertainment in this regard, and Father’s Day is now a day to disparage married fathers in churches across the land. It isn’t just our culture that sends this message. We send the same message with even greater potency with our family courts.
The message is: Men who marry and have children are despicable and deserve the harshest punishments we can mete out.
Now we are scratching our heads asking “Hey, why aren’t these young men knocking themselves out preparing to become husbands and fathers? What is wrong with these losers?” I don’t think Nathan himself knows what is really going on. This new system that dishonors the honorable and discourages men from working hard is the only system he knows. It will also be the only system his children will know. For at the end of the Bloomberg article we learn that 25 year old unemployed Nathan is already a father twice over under our new family model:
He wants to earn enough to provide security for his son and daughter, who live with their mother.
Predictably older conservatives will respond to the failure of our new family model by patting themselves on the back for working harder than young men like Nathan. We are after all the generation that won the Cold War.
Yeah, they certainly won the cold war but lost the warm one happening right under their noses!
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Plus, c’mon, our economy really isn’t all that healthy. No, I don’t care that the stock market is up and unemployment is down. What is the wage data? Where does it compare adjusted for real inflation? Again, better, but not great by a long shot.
“Hard work” is like the faith of fraudulent faith healers, you always have an out if someone isn’t healed “they didn’t have enough faith”; aka “they just don’t wanna work hard”.
There’s a reason everybody points at silicon valley, for the longest time, it was like old America, you could work hard and get ahead rather quickly. Even tech isn’t really like that anymore and the much vaunted “blue collar solution” means you get to sacrifice your back and the rest of your body for success. I’m not knocking it, you do what you have to do, but at this point I’m suspicious of anything that puts the onus on young men. Boomers kicked most of the ladder out of the way and expect harder work for less pay AND less security. It’s a bad deal.
Of course you can start a business and be successful in this country, it’s not Afghanistan, we’re really not that bad. And obviously, the willingness to do the work is always necessary. The point is, it’s become an excuse for not making bricks without straw. A lot of the blue collar survival work is being taken by illegals not paying taxes, and H1Bs are squeezing tech in open violation of the law.
Now add on top of this, if any company in America has the option to hire female, or any other protected class, they’re going to do it. I’ve talked to real HR professionals who, sotto voce, say they absolutely are on the look out all the time for protected class people to hire, despite the fact that that’s “illegal”. They look at your reporting data and you get to go the back of the line; it’s the only way to keep EEOC off your back. Not that it’s easy for minorities, but it is definitely easier for qualified minorities and women than it’s ever been.
So, finally, at the end of all that, if young men aren’t making money, they don’t get encouraged or helped, they get kicked in the teeth. I remember a panel on Fox talking about ways to make sure students pay off their student loans and don’t get a “free ride”. Their primary concern was to make sure crooked banks and deceptive educational institutions still got their dollars first, regardless of how the loan was repaid.
Tomorrow, I’m voted straight R so hard I will probably break the big red button. Because I’m not insane. But don’t get me wrong, the Republicans and the Democrats are united in their inability to give a shit about the little guy. Eventually, fuck me becomes fuck you.
From the article:
“Men — long America’s economically privileged gender — have been dogged in recent decades by high incarceration and swollen disability rates.”
We’ve been economically privileged for too long. Like many things in Western culture, payback explains a lot.
I’m not a criminal…nor do I want to be one. The family courts basically say when a wife has the whim to pull the cord the father and husband is on par with criminals.
I can have the ‘alpha’ mindset and preach biblical marriage all I want, I can state to you all I don’t have to worry about anything because she’s a NAWALT…but she still has agency to submit or rebel. Is it worth the risk if she decides one day to go to the Satanic divorce court? Better hope she’s God fearing.
Alot of the ‘missing men’ are more likely the hordes of drug dealers than cheetos-eating basement dwellers imo. Afterall the incentives for being recognized as a local bad boy are on par with the incentives for being a rock star. Rich kids off youtubing their gap year(s) instead of marrying. Rich dad’s not wishing the grind on their 20 something’s and paying for years of adventure/hobbies/talent-finding. Add extreme racism/sexism in our current hiring milieu and it’s all explained. No mystery.
Genetically speaking, Nathan is a winner already.
He successfully navigated the sexual marketplace to find a woman to bear him children. All without years in college and the rat-race!
And many of the beta-schlubs 20-somethings I work with – who do ALL the gruntwork – will likely end up childless.
(I feel bad for them, but honestly, they are not the type of men I’d want MY daughter to marry either.)
Here’s an idea of how to prevent a frivorce: Live high and in deep debt.
Maintain a lavish lifestyle, with a big house, etc. Always spend far more than you can afford. Always remain deep in debt. Paycheck to paycheck. If you earn more, make sure to always spend it.
If the wife ever threatens divorce, use reverse dread. Show her the books. Tell her that if she divorces you, you will stop working. You will happily go to jail, and in a few months she’ll lose the house, all her possessions, no more vacations. She’ll end up working full time, at low wages, living in a seedy apartment in the bad part of town.
If she gets mouthy, insult her back. Insult her freely. Dare her to divorce you. If she hits you, hit her back. Tell her that now she can call the cops on you. Go ahead. You’ll happily go to jail for domestic abuse, and she’ll lose her meal ticket.
Reverse dread might not work in every situation. And I speak as a never married MGTOW. But it’s an idea.
It does provide an incentive for the woman to stay in the marriage.
Interesting how the definition of “generational” seems to have shifted. I would have thought a “generational trait” would be a trait that seems to recur in the same family line one generation after another. But Bloomberg is using the term as if it connotes one whole generation’s choice to do things their own way rather than follow the path of their forebears. The Bloomberg definition seems communist at root.
I used to think female hypergamy was a big reason why they put off marriage…now I’m thinking DODO hypergamy is just as bad.
Huh? Just don’t get married.
Dalrock,
I am sure you will disagree with me, but I find it very difficult to see someone who writes this and has the size of following he does as the devil you portray him to be.
https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/smash-the-matriarchy.html
It’s a bad one.
So rather than be a slave to your wife’s whims..you are a slave to numerous banks.
“But it’s an idea.”
That’s just the “don’t move or the idiot gets it!” routine. Besides, don’t some courts have a habit of entitling the wife to “the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed?” It seems like, one way or another, you’re just going to jail.
And she doesn’t lose her meal ticket. Government WILL pick up the tab. So now we all pay for it.
From the Bloomberg article:
“Men — long America’s economically privileged gender — have been dogged in recent decades by high incarceration and swollen disability rates.”
A woman must have written that. *checks* Yes.
“Though employment rates have been climbing back from the abyss, young men never caught up again. Millennial males remain less likely to hold down a job than the generation before them, even as women their age work at higher rates.”
Boldface mine. We solved the mystery!
And they would have got away with it if it wasn’t for us meddling kids.
@BJ
I strongly suggest you peruse https://dalrock.wordpress.com/category/pastor-doug-wilson for a more complete picture of Dalrock’s critiques of Wilson’s body of work.
The article’s author, Jeanna Smialek, is a journalism graduate of UNC Chapel Hill, a college so prog that it recently tore down the Confederate statue Silent Sam for being a Nazi. She wrote this in the context of a semester abroad in China:
http://phillips.unc.edu/page/jeanna-smialek
“While I could never adequately explain the magnitude or depth of my learning in China, certain lessons that I learned in Xiamen stand out as if highlighted in my mind. For one thing, my time in China taught me to be more tolerant and genuinely understanding of other cultures. While I previously thought that I understood cultural sensitivity, experiences like sleeping on wooden planks and growing used to China’s different standards for sanitation truly tested and expanded the limits of my open-mindedness. Beyond this, my Chinese friends’ dedication to their friends and especially families (the vestiges of Confucianism remain strong in Xiamen) reminded me that while I pursue my education and career partly for my own benefit, my ultimate goal should always be to serve my family and the people around me. Beyond this, living in Xiamen allowed me an up- close- and personal view of China’s rich culture- ranging from learning the complexities of tea culture (and it is intricate) to researching the Chinese standards for feminine success, every day I spent in Xiamen held some lesson.”
Another dumb blonde raised to hate her own people.
BJ
I am sure you will disagree with me, but I find it very difficult to see someone who writes this and has the size of following he does as the devil you portray him to be.
First: I’m not Dalrock. Don’t even play him on TV.
Second: The article in question is the usual Wilsonian mush, but not quite as woman-worshipping as the usual mush. But…let’s wait and see how he responds to the pushback from conservative, feminists, churchgoing women, shall we?
Third: “Has the size of following” is the “argumentum ad populum” or “bandwagon” fallacy.
Fourth: This modern hypersensitivity is childish. Dalrock has not portrayed Wilson as a devil, he has pointed out errors in Wilson’s thinking and writing. That’ what men do. That’s how men debate.
If Wilson is really recanting years of his writing, he should be more explicit about it. That’s another thing men do: they admit when they are wrong, and they even apologize to others that they have coughWordToTheWifeBeaters wronged.
Let’s wait and see.
@Earl
Rut-Roh!
Now we are scratching our heads asking “Hey, why aren’t these young men knocking themselves out preparing to become husbands and fathers? What is wrong with these losers?” I don’t think Nathan himself knows what is really going on. This new system that dishonors the honorable and discourages men from working hard is the only system he knows.
Because to most people, men work and support their families. Period. They do it even when not incentivized. They do it because it’s inherently valuable, and because it is just what they are supposed to do.
What people didn’t realize is that men wouldn’t just keep on doing what they always did unless you give them a reason to do it.
He doesn’t have to work. Mr. Butcher can still get laid, even though the only things he knows how to do are operate a smartphone and look dissolute in a photo, clad in t-shirt, swim trunks, flipflops, and earlobe distenders. He’s a father twice over. And “the system” supports his children while he waits to look for work. (My employer wouldn’t hire him to work in the mail room.)
Once upon a time fathers would want their daughters to marry hard-working providers but today guys like Johnathon Castle look down on these guys and want their daughters to avoid them. So when hard-working guys don’t have families (incentives) you get fewer hard-working guys and more losers like Nathan. Why spend your life doing gruntwork in a country where everyone hates you?
We live in upside down world…fathers look down upon responsible men or at least men with a job…and their daughters get knocked up by criminals or losers who don’t care for work. Some don’t even have kids at at…at least they can be grandparents to dogs since that’s a thing now.
@deti
What people didn’t realize is that men wouldn’t just keep on doing what they always did unless you give them a reason to do it.
IMHO we passed the “loss of incentive” stage anywhere from 10 to 20 years back.
Now we are into the DISincentive stage. Men are actively punished for being married fathers, and rewarded for the other alternatives.
It’s more than “incentives matter”. It’s “DISincentives matter, too”.
The beatings must continue, because men’s morale continues to sink.
To be technically accurate in the terminology (and at the risk of being cast as a geek), the first phenomena is called “intergenerational perpetuation”, and is closely entwined with one’s sense of justice. The second would be a “generational cohort” or a “cultural generation”, depending on whether the characteristics are individual or collective. Most authors stumble over the sophistication, and then abbreviate these terms to be simply “generational”. Most readers get the intended meaning through context.
Jonathan Castle:
You’re like one of those dads for whom NO man could ever be good enough for his little girl.
The Nathan Butchers of the world can get baby mamas. Of course you don’t want an alpha playa like Nathan sidling up to your baby girl, because you don’t want her becoming a baby mama. The 20-something beta schlubs are unattractive losers who couldn’t assert their way out of wet paper sacks and couldn’t set a boundary if their lives depended on it. Your baby would run roughshod over those guys and would end up having to support a beta schlub if she married him.
Is that what your objection to those guys are? They don’t supply suitably “hot” genetic material to make your grandkids? They aren’t sufficiently assertive and lack sufficient potential to manage your baby girl.
Those beta schlubs are quickly figuring out the score. If they have no prospects at attracting a woman, they’ll stay right where they are. Why should they advance and earn multiples of what they need to survive if they have no one to support but themselves?
We ain’t seen nuthin’ yet. In about 20 years, today’s millennia kids will be our governors, Senators, Mayors, and (gasp) presidents. We are already seeing how they think in Ms. Ocasio-Ortez.
The world is about to get exciting. May God save us.
OT
Just saw this in the last 5 minutes
https://americandadweb.wordpress.com/2018/11/05/where-will-you-be-when-the-music-stops/
As a kid, I saw, dare I say, I witnessed my father’s misery. He gave everything for his family. His health, his back, his sleep. For what? An ungrateful, querellous, disdainous wife at home?
I believe that was the worst. The disdain. The unacknowledgement of all he did for us. My mom’s stonewalling. I mean, everything but stonewalling. I can’t stand it. When she’d do that to me, it would drive me mad.
I never understood as a kid why Dad stayed, but I saw, to my great surprise, in the divorce, even a bad person like my mom, she kept everything in the divorce. The house. The kids. Some of his future income.
I couldn’t understand how such thing was possible, I mean, he was the only decent parent!!!
I knew I didn’t want to ever be in the same situation. To gamble all my life on an unfair contract, and not even get a thank you out of all those efforts.
Why work harder when I can just eat healthy, take dance classes, and exercise with my buddies?
A reliable Soviet joke was always, “They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work.”
“The Golden Age of Single Motherhood” has to be a quotable quote if there ever is one.
When you see a left-libtard talking about “toxic masculinity”, you can now, courtesy of Dalrock, say, ”The Golden Age of Single Motherhood is over, toots. Men aren’t gonna line up and take it in the arse for you any more”.
Conservatives always hearken back to a Golden Age, one that never really existed. What did exist in Western culture was it’s Christian roots producing art, architecture, sculpture and literature that was the world’s best. It still is, since every one wants to come to the West, because tacitly, they know that they can’t make any progress, neither social or individual, without ”whitey” whom they despise.
Meanwhile, atheists and their political arm, the Communists, have exhausted themselves on the political / economic front, as proven by a century of trying and getting zero success at the expense of so many lives it makes that German guy look like a pussy.
Not to be outdone, the social / cultural Marxists are busy introducing quotas: separated-husband pay quotas, female-CEO quotas, female-political-party-quotas, affirmative-action-3rd-world-incompetent quotas, LGBTIQ-mentally-ill quotas….
It’s not going to end well….
@greenmantlehoyos, I know it’s a case of confirmation bias but thanks for your comment. I can really relate to it.
LOL at the kid in the article saying he gets mad about taking a job where “they don’t pay me what I’m worth”! Typical spoiled, entitled, “you’re a special snowflake”, “everyone get a trophy” Millennial, lol.
Newsflash buddy…what they’re offering to pay you IS what you’re worth. You’re not special.
I’ve seen on twitter people mentioning things like the percentages of single mother homes the boys grow up in plus the fact most educators are female…toxic masculinity by and large is mostly a creation from a lack of males.
When feminism is in the ascendant, this means that we are actually being ruled by the (male) manipulators behind them. When women rule, this actually means that (wicked) men are ruling, with women being used as their instrument.
BINGO
As much as dougwils talks out of both sides of his mouth, this is true. Now, does that mean these rebellious women should be excused? Hells no. Eve wasn’t. And neither should the likes of dougwils when he contradicts himself (if history is any indication, he will).
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And Jeff Strand falls for the misandric hit piece. Of course they held up a grumbling wuss/loser as the archetype to bring home their point. Male’sfault/malesareweak/futureisfemale.
He was their patsy. What a joke that you couldn’t see that. Really unimpressive.
From that Instapundit thread:
a.k.a. “patting themselves on the back”
a.k.a. “the only Real Men ™ in the room”
Old_School_Conservative53 • 11 hours ago
There are decent paying jobs available. However, they require (1)a decent work ethic, (2)willingness to work, (3)the gumption to get up off their dead asses and get the training needed, and (4)a clean drug test.
john james r@7:25 pm:
“He was their patsy. What a joke that you couldn’t see that. Really unimpressive.”
+1
“John James” said: “He was their patsy. What a joke that you couldn’t see that. Really unimpressive.”
Yeah, no. It’s that I’ve seen way too many of these whiny, bitchy little Millenial brats who think their schit doesn’t stink and want everything handed to them. My nephew is one of them.
They’re too good to start at the bottom and work their way up like the rest of us did. Screw ’em. I have no sympathy for them. Everybody gets a trophy, right? So lame.
It’s like the MGTOW script writes itself! Thanks women.
https://www.thisisinsider.com/woman-ring-shamed-herself-reactions-2018-11
Some women make it clearly known they don’t want to be married.
That’s ok…she can just marry herself or a poltergeist and get the expensive rock of her dreams.
They picked a loser and you fell for it and had a tradcongasm instead of recognizing the misandric objectives
“They’re too good to start at the bottom and work their way up like the rest of us did. ”
When the Boomers started, there was room at the bottom. The Boomers gutted voc-ed, gutted apprenticeships, gutted industry, gutted training, pretty well eliminated the entry level. There isn’t much room at the bottom for a White boy, even if he’s honestly not a snowflake.
The Chinese are keenly watching and applauding these developments. No doubt assessing the will to fight in our youth. Grandpas here and on that Instapundit thread are not the ones who’ll be kitting up for the frontline meat grinder. Millennials will mostly decline to fight, finding excuses, 4F. Recent immigrants will have zero incentive to fight, other than to possibly reap spoils of war. Instead they will opt to stand idly by until the dust clears and they can soak up the leftovers, or simply head back home where it’s safer. The youth are disincentivized to work and provide for a Strong Independent Woman™ and this extends to defending whamens and chi’drens in battle. No doubt there will be a lot of brave single-minded fighters, believing in “honor” and antiquated notions of chivalry, who will die in the hamburger mill. There will also be plenty who ask why they should die to preserve a corrupt and degenerate society; dying so thugs and aliens can inherit the world after?
You can’t compare how young men and women decide to “serve” today, in a very safe environment, to the bloody carnage about to take place. Very few face real danger even in Afghanistan. There are no long lines of battle weary soldiers, walking dead, who know they’re dead men walking – heading straight back into the carnage. But those days will come. The value of life will drop to zero as the US faces existential threat. But our tender Millennials won’t surprise anyone with triumph on the battlefield. The Chinese will probably not win, because nukes will be the great equalizer. But the US may not survive in its current state. Mexico will likely annex large parts of the south, using police forces – not armies – to ostensibly protect ethnic Mexicans, as the US is totally preoccupied or exhausted.
Yes the Boomers rode the coat tails of their hard working and sacrifical parents to be the first generation of snowflakes and gutted everything…and now they complain their kids and grandkids they produced don’t want to work.
Propaganda alert. A sentence in this article reads: “Men — long America’s economically privileged gender…” WRONG. Men created the jobs to begin with. Men designed and built virtually everything. Men are the economic innovators, not beneficiaries of some nebulous “privilege.” Word usage like this is how the media propagandists deceive people. They paint a different reality than actually exists. Building gas stations and hauling fuel aren’t “privilege.” That’s called “hard work.” The female typist who wrote this crap, Jeanna Smialek, exemplifies why men don’t want to deal with mainstream society anymore. I hope someday when her power goes out, no privileged MEN come to fix it.
“I hope someday when her power goes out, no privileged MEN come to fix it.”
I’m sure Lineperson Barbie will show up in her hardhat to tell everyone how she feels about power outages, and the importance of teamwork and inclusivity and diversity. She might also talk about the previous Lineperson, who caused the outage by blowing up herself and the substation because she was inclusive, diverse and too careless for hot work. Lineperson Barbie says “LOTO is HARD!”
Old_School_Conservative53 • 11 hours ago
There are decent paying jobs available.
To which the response should be:
“Concrete examples, please. We hear this vague claim all the time, but never see the people making it back it up with any hard specifics. Just verbal flatulence characteristic of class and age differences no one has any real interest in bridging.”
However, they require (1)a decent work ethic, (2)willingness to work, (3)the gumption to get up off their dead asses and get the training needed,
“Leaving aside the fact that the first two of these three things are one and the same, the third, as any recent college or tech school graduate will tell you, is not a magic bullet or a panacea for employment. Indeed, part of the problem is that more and more people of all ages are finding that you can blow your life savings or mortgage future earnings on all the state-of-the-art training you can stand and grab as many “hot demand” certs as you can cram for, but you’ll find that 1) hundreds of thousands of other desperate schlubs like you are doing the exact same thing, meaning that 2) the pool of prospective employees is saturated, meaning that 3) few jobs are available, and those that are provide a laughably poor ROI in pay and advancement opportunities compared to the time, effort, and money expended trying to qualify for them. This doesn’t even take into account the social and legal barriers to entry that white men (of any age) now face in employment.
“But hey, that’s the kid’s fault for being born in the wrong generation. Why couldn’t he have been born in the same generation as OSC53 and just not have these problems? /sarc”
and (4)a clean drug test.
“Unless the guy is going to work as a healthcare provider, a pilot, a commercial driver, a heavy equipment operator, or a teacher/daycare worker, this is generally the least important part of the process in practical terms. However, given the tradcon police state fetish, this is something that OSC53 would probably have the kid shot over.”
I wonder if Old_School_Conservative53 is Jeff Strand’s Twitter handle. The comment looks just like something he would write.
Name(required) says:
November 5, 2018 at 9:07 pm
Hear, hear (full disclosure: I’m part of the tail end of the Boomer generation, and even I believe that they generally fucked up everyone and everything that ever made America livable).
@Random Angeleno
Thanks for the link. I appreciate it. I will read it.
@Anonymous Reader
Thanks for the response. I appreciate your thoughts.
BJ
Name required, when you speak about sexy linewoman, it made me think about a recent story!
https://www.kwch.com/content/news/Florida-woman-makes-single-and-sexy-sign-to-get-power-back-446127323.html
earl on November 5, 2018 at 8:57 pm
It’s like the MGTOW script writes itself! Thanks women.
Some women make it clearly known they don’t want to be married.
That’s ok…she can just marry herself or a poltergeist and get the expensive rock of her dreams.
Oh, she is not that much into marriage and everything that goes with it, she is more into the wedding ceremony, the dress, the ring, the flowers and all.
@BJ
Dalrock and those like him are constantly pushing against the right side of the Overton frame, and when that enables someone like Wilson to take a peek at the new sights enabled by Dalrock’s efforts, then we should nod approvingly at Wilson, he who teaches that the wife is the House Despot and the husband is an Honored Guest?
Whatever, man.
Name required: “When the Boomers started, there was room at the bottom. The Boomers gutted voc-ed, gutted apprenticeships, gutted industry, gutted training, pretty well eliminated the entry level. There isn’t much room at the bottom for a White boy, even if he’s honestly not a snowflake.”
I won’t use my experience as a Gen X’er, cause I’m sure I’ll be told I’m out of touch with how things are nowadays. So here’s a little story.
I recently had my regular six month check-up done on my home a/c system. I live in the South, so a/c is muy importante! A young white kid came out, driving his company’s truck, to check the system. He was probably in his early 20’s, so even on the younger end of the Millenials. I got to talking to him. Here was his story:
He lived up in Jersey, but realized he could never own a house up there on his own – real estate and property taxes are too high. But he wants to be self-sufficient, not need roommates all his life, and be able to start a family and financially support that family. He did some research, and decided to move to my town in the South. Mind you, without knowing a soul in the area! Pretty impressive. He just up and moved. Just him, by himself.
He had saved up like $8k or $10k to make this plan work. He didn’t rent an apt – he rented a room in somebody’s house for a few hundred a month. Took the rest of his nest egg and enrolled in college. NOT a four year university, and not one of those scam for-profit rip-offs (cough, cough, culinary institute, cough, cough).
Instead he enrolled in State College. Often known as “community college” or “vocational school”. Took courses to become a certified, state-licensed HVAC install and repair guy. A two year course of study, but I think he finished even earlier by attending school year round (including summer). Not sure if he also got a two year degree or not. But he did finish the course of study, and got the appropriate state licenses. And he had no student debt (State College is cheap).
I asked him if he got hired by his current a/c company right out of school. Yes, he said. Even more so, they actually came into the school and worked with him even while he was still a student! He says he loves the work, everyday is something different. He said there’s always new technology to learn (like the new UV light based anti-mold systems they’re putting in air handlers now). And the company encourages him to keep learning and getting more State certifications.
I asked about pay. He’s got to do a few years as an apprentice, but then the pay really starts picking up. In a few years he should he making over 30 grand. A couple years after that, as an experienced journeyman HVAC technician, he can easily be making $40k to $50k…and up around $70k if he’s willing to bust ass and do overtime. At that point he’ll still be only in his mid 20’s, moving into his late 20’s. And I live in a very cheap cost of living area (he explained that’s a big reason why he moved here…remember, he did his research). Sixty grand is really good income around here…and you can buy a decent home on that income (limiting yourself to 3x income…so budgeting about $160k to $180k purchase price for the home).
He’ll be able to start a family and support it, even on his income alone. And live in a decent (though not extravagant) house that he’ll own. Plus, he said that making $100k or more is very possible years down the road. And if he wants to move later, he can. HVAC guys are always in demand and he can get a job anywhere.
All in all, I was very impressed. A real go-getter, not a whiny brat. If either of my daughters were old enough, I would be happy to introduce them and encourage them to try dating and see how things go. Who wouldn’t want a self-reliant, masculine, go-getter like that – with a good head on his shoulders – as a son in law?
So sorry for the long post, but wanted to tell this story. I’m sure the usual suspects on here will whine that this guy is a natural Alpha, and you can’t expect your average schlub to do something similar. Excuses, excuses. It’s just laziness.
You either sit on the sidelines and whine and complain…or you get in the game, bust ass, and play to win. Everybody is free to make their own choice. So choose wisely. I believe this young man has.
Deti, Ray,
“You’re like one of those dads for whom NO man could ever be good enough for his little girl.”
Not at all. I want her to marry young and give me lots of grand-babies! I don’t mince any words on the subject.
“…The 20-something beta schlubs are unattractive losers who couldn’t assert their way out of wet paper sacks and couldn’t set a boundary if their lives depended on it.”
Yes, well put. They are unassertive, chubby, soy-boys whose genetics would poison my line.
“Is that what your objection to those guys are? They don’t supply suitably “hot” genetic material to make your grandkids? They aren’t sufficiently assertive and lack sufficient potential to manage your baby girl.”
Yes. Exactly. Although, my preferred hypothetical test would be…in the zombie apocalypse, would her man know what to do to protect her and my grandkids? And then have the cajones to follow through.
There are still strong, resourceful young men in our society. (I’m trying to raise two myself.) THAT’S what I want for my daughter. Good L0rd, what the heck do you want for yours?
I can have sympathy for these guys – and even try to red-pill them – without wanting them in my family as they are now.
I hate to break it to y’all, but there are, in fact, many good jobs not only available, but going unfilled.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/jobs-go-unfilled-as-the-economy-expands-1533677955
The aerospace manufacturer where I work is experiencing this. We can’t find enough people to fill all our open positions. We even increased our entry level pay recently to $23/hour. And we have no shortage of overtime available. We still can’t fill our open positions.
The same is true for our suppliers. They’re so busy that they’ll turn down small orders, or bid them so high that they know we’ll turn them down.
It’s crazy out there right now. It’s a good problem to have, but it’s still a problem.
Jonathan Castle: “There are still strong, resourceful young men in our society. (I’m trying to raise two myself.) THAT’S what I want for my daughter. Good L0rd, what the heck do you want for yours?”
I completely agree. Check out my post above, at 11:00pm. Isn’t that the kind of self-reliant go-getter you’d be looking for when it comes to a mate for your daughter? They’re out there!
Another anecdote: one of my Army buddies left active duty this year. He has a History degree, but he decided to go to trade school. He’s not even half way through his course, and he’s already received multiple job offers. So far, he plans to start a real estate/general contractor company with his brothers.
“I hate to break it to y’all, but there are, in fact, many good jobs not only available, but going unfilled.”
There may be a bit of a shortage in the trades, although I’m not seeing it here. In the white collar world, most of the shortage boils down to employees wanting years of experience for wages that look good in New Delhi, but won’t support a family in New Jersey – in other words, the shortage is part of the H1b visa racket, and not real at all.
Strand: yes sir! I would like that type of guy as a son-in-law. And I would hope upon hope that I raised my daughter well enough not to take him for granted and frivorce his butt when she gets bored – as is the custom of our day.
I think some of these guys don’t have daughters and haven’t thought things through from a young woman’s perspective. A lot of women deserve the scorn they get. Very true. But a sizeable chunk are just trying to do the best they can in the midst of a society that lies to them and corrupts them at every turn.
Now, I’ve been red-pilled the hard way and have the scars to prove it. If it wasn’t for my daughter I think I could easily have settled into a totally cynical, perpetual red-pill rage. But with a daughter, I can’t write that half of humanity off as irredeemable monsters. And I gotta at least try to help her chart a successful path in life given the sick society she lives in.
Cuckservatives have zero principles. The people who are supposed to understand incentives suddenly forget everything when the prospect of groveling to a woman presents itself.
Cuckservative views on men’s duties in marriage are identical to a leftist who wants an 80% tax rate. Cuckservatives want an 80% tax rate too, as long as all payers are men and all recipients are women.
Related :
Black woman steals $150K from cuckservatives. Everyone points to the race angle, but I think the gender angle is more salient (a black man could not have gotten the donations) :
I actually approve of this. Cuckservatives deserve to be swindled.
@Cane Caldo
Thanks for the reply.
All I am suggesting is that we see him as as Ally. I am not suggesting we agree with everything he says.
Did you read the link?
The number of guys who are great providers AND look like male models is very small and the odds of your daughter marrying one of these guys is very small. Women don’t have REALISTIC expectations about what they can get which is why more and more are having cats instead of kids. Unfortunately many people do have to learn things the hard way.
cuckservatism and soyboyism are related. Actual weak and effeminate men cannot be trusted to not be traitors and cuckservatives like the national review clowns.
Why should they even get to be husbands of the best of women?
And I think we are finding out that DODOs don’t have realistic expectations either.
@ Name (required)
The issue was about entry level jobs, so that’s what I addressed. And I provided you with data demonstrating that there are 6.7 million such jobs going unfilled throughout the US. Those jobs aren’t distributed evenly, but they are, in fact, going unfilled. You can choose to believe or not believe the facts, but they’re still facts.
As for white collar jobs; we can’t keep engineers, or support personnel either. There’s an incredible amount of competition for good employees out there, and wages are increasing because of it. Like I said, we’re paying $23/hour for an entry level assembler.
JonathanCastle:
“You’re like one of those dads for whom NO man could ever be good enough for his little girl.”
Not at all. I want her to marry young and give me lots of grand-babies! I don’t mince any words on the subject.
She won’t, as long as her standards are as high as you claim, or as high as you expect them to be. Let me tell you a little secret: There aren’t anywhere close to enough high status hot men to go around; and (come closer) – your daughter probably isn’t attractive enough or high value enough herself to get one.
“…The 20-something beta schlubs are unattractive losers who couldn’t assert their way out of wet paper sacks and couldn’t set a boundary if their lives depended on it.”
Yes, well put. They are unassertive, chubby, soy-boys whose genetics would poison my line.
Probably so. Why should they improve? So you and your daughter can harangue and harass and divorce rape them?
“Is that what your objection to those guys are? They don’t supply suitably “hot” genetic material to make your grandkids? They aren’t sufficiently assertive and lack sufficient potential to manage your baby girl.”
Yes. Exactly. Although, my preferred hypothetical test would be…in the zombie apocalypse, would her man know what to do to protect her and my grandkids? And then have the cajones to follow through.
Sure. Why should those men do that for her and for kids (by the way, they will be HER children and her husband’s children)? So she can use him up, maltreat him, and divorce rape him?
Look, man. I get it. Lots of low value men out there. Lots of entitled bitches out there. Why should these men improve? So you are “nice” to them? You think these guys care what you think about them? You think the Nathan Butchers of the world care what you think about them? They are long, long past caring what you or anyone thinks about them. The world – and you, and your daughter – wrote them off long ago, long before you ever met or heard of them.
Your tax dollars support his illegitimate children, because politicians you helped elect passed laws mandating it. The Nathans of the world were raised on welfare money, because politicians you helped elect passed laws allowing their mothers to offload and divorce rape their dads, or never stay with their dads in the first place.
YOU created this situation, JonathanCastle. YOU did.
So-called “non profit” higher education makes plenty of profit for those involved. Most for profit choices are only costly because they don’t get all the government (often state) money under the table.
Don’t be ignorant, though that seems to come with you.
Jonathan Castle: “There are still strong, resourceful young men in our society. (I’m trying to raise two myself.) THAT’S what I want for my daughter. Good L0rd, what the heck do you want for yours?”
I completely agree. Check out my post above, at 11:00pm. Isn’t that the kind of self-reliant go-getter you’d be looking for when it comes to a mate for your daughter? They’re out there!
There are a few strong, resourceful men in society. There aren’t enough, and your daughter probably won’t get one.
All in all, I was very impressed. A real go-getter, not a whiny brat. If either of my daughters were old enough, I would be happy to introduce them and encourage them to try dating and see how things go. Who wouldn’t want a self-reliant, masculine, go-getter like that – with a good head on his shoulders – as a son in law?
Jeff Strand, there is NO way you’d give your daughter to a “lowly” tradesman, even if he is successful. I know guys like you. Men like you expect their daughters to marry doctors, lawyers, bankers and businessmen, who they won’t be sexually attracted to and who they will be miserably unhappy with, and who they will marry for money and status, and who they will divorce rape 10 or so years in when the last kid goes to kindergarten. It’s happened millions of times. And 15 years from now when Poopsie McCupcake comes back to you weeping about how she’s sooo unhaaaaappy and she just HAS to leave him (whom YOU approved of and blessed) and she just HAS to come back “home” and Daddy could you please give me $25K to pay the lawyer and another $20K for startup for the new house I need and I’ll pay you back after I take the husband YOU gave me to the cleaners —-
You’ll get your checkbook out before the last words are out of her mouth.
When what you SHOULD be doing is telling her to go back to her husband and WORK IT OUT. When what you SHOULD have done is train her up to pick a guy she loves and is sexually attracted to and wants to be with instead of a man YOU want her to be with. When what you SHOULD have done is not run down and denigrate the men she knows.
Jonathan,
Jeff would blame the man if your daughter dumped him for not being alpha enough! It is always the man’s fault in Jeff’s world.
Note that you can’t chart any path for your daughter. That is just DODO thinking. She will follow what she will. You may even help fund her divorce when she comes to you with a sob story about how horrible the man who seemed so driven really is, even if that will aid her being like most of the rest of the female population.
You don’t have to hate females to open your eyes and realize the system is heavily out of whack.
I think some of these guys don’t have daughters and haven’t thought things through from a young woman’s perspective.
Wrong. I have a 19 year old daughter who’s already dipped her toes into the SMP/MMP shitshow you cuckservatives/tradcucks created. I know what is out there, and what is going on, a hell of a lot better than most of you do. I also know better than you do WHY it exists and WHAT needs to be done to fix it.
A lot of women deserve the scorn they get. Very true. But a sizeable chunk are just trying to do the best they can in the midst of a society that lies to them and corrupts them at every turn.
The modern Western woman is the most pampered, most privileged creature ever to walk the face of the earth. Society treats them very well and helps them at every turn, even if it “lies” to them. People, including women, don’t get “corrupted” unless they want to get corrupted, and the best women sorely, sorely WANT to be corrupted. They very very much want to have premarital sex with very attractive men. They very much want the best men, and then to control and manipulate those men into doing, being, and getting them what they want.
You really need to remove those rose colored glasses. You do not understand women’s true nature.
Now, I’ve been red-pilled the hard way and have the scars to prove it. If it wasn’t for my daughter I think I could easily have settled into a totally cynical, perpetual red-pill rage. But with a daughter, I can’t write that half of humanity off as irredeemable monsters. And I gotta at least try to help her chart a successful path in life given the sick society she lives in.
Women aren’t “irredeemable monsters” and no one is saying they are. What they are saying is that women have a nature (that you clearly have not even a rudimentary understanding of), and men must be aware of that nature.
You want to help her chart a successful path in life in this sick society that YOU helped create? How about you
–tell her not to write off the other half of humanity as worthless sacks of crap (and not do that yourself)
–tell her to humble herself and learn domestic skills so she actually has something to offer all these “high value men” you claim exist
–train her to be nice, be pretty, don’t get fat, and be available to meet high value men
–teach her to use her immense sexual power to get a high value man and keep him
–stop pedestalizing women, stop supplicating to them, and stop white knighting for them
Oscar,
I completely believe your stories about doing well in the trades. But you need to open your eyes a bit more on the white color end. Yes, many companies can’t fill jobs, but that is because they want unrealistic levels of experience at pay levels that fall well short of reality.
I have had many initial phone screens and even in person interviews just vanish. I am personally convinced part of it is a form of age discrimination, since I am above 50, but an unwillingness to be flexible is also clearly evident. (Along with an annoying tendency to not bother even telling job candidates they are no longer in the running.)
The H1B issue is large. That needs to be completely chopped along with all other immigration. It may not impact you, but it impacts others.
Italics close fail. Italics should have been closed after “women’s true nature”.
@BJ
I read it after Hmm posted it in the previous thread. (https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/11/02/whose-job-is-it-to-keep-mama-happy/#comment-289914)
I do not believe that Doug Wilson is an ally. I’d consider it if–as I responded to Hmm–he one day wrote, “And you know what? For years I taught the opposite of this. I Doug Wilson gave women the tools to bring down their own houses and establish themselves as matriarchs. Please forgive me.”
The thing is, BJ, he has been willing to lie for decades about what the Bible says and what God instructs us through it. And I believe he liked doing it. He liked spinning yarns to “prove” his novel interpretations of what the Bible said because he likes controversy. He likes to make up a false center, pose in it, and from there dclare everybody else has been misinterpreting this for two thousand years.
If I were a young white man graduating high school today there is no way on earth I would go to four year university to earn a liberal arts or business degree. I’d go to trade school and learn a trade and go apprentice; and/or get a CDL.
Deti,
Have you been watching my former father-in-law? He helped pay to make my wife just like her mother, a woman he had divorced years before and despised. He never did like me though, so getting rid of me was good for him and his princess deserved better of course!
I doubt she will have enough to pay him back, but the principle is the same.
Getting a CDL may not be a good route with the direction toward automated driving.
Billy:
These are the kinds of men Dalrock has written about before – men who want their daughters to be kickass gals, strongindependentwomen, who don’t need no man, and who need careers and money for “what ifs” about the men they will marry:
“But Poopsie Princess, what if your (worthless piece of crap) husband dies/divorces you/cheats on you/gets disabled? What if that (worthless spineless POS) man I gave you to and at least sort of approved of can’t/won’t support you and take care of MY MY MY grandchildren??? Huh? Go to college! Become a kickass gal! You don’t need a man! Be independent! “
I actually approve of this. Cuckservatives deserve to be swindled.
It’s amazing how they never, EVER learn. One of the things that they’re genetically incapable of learning is that stabbing your base (i.e., middle class white males) in the back and selling them out is equivalent to deliberately cutting your own throat, and that trying to replace said base with vibrants who not only don’t share, but DESPISE everything you stand for is ALWAYS a suicidal strategy.
Proof positive of my long-running assertion that “common” sense is anything but.
@BJ
When I point out what Pastor Wilson is doing, you guys complain; why can’t I just leave him be? When don’t write about what Pastor Wilson is doing, you guys still bitch. It is tedious. I only skimmed the post, but from what I can see Wilson is doing the same misdirection he usually does. You guys can’t see it until I point it out (and then you complain that I pointed it out). But I’m not going to point it out every time he does it.
“But Poopsie Princess, what if your (worthless piece of crap) husband dies/divorces you/cheats on you/gets disabled? What if that (worthless spineless POS) man I gave you to and at least sort of approved of can’t/won’t support you and take care of MY MY MY grandchildren??? Huh? Go to college! Become a kickass gal! You don’t need a man! Be independent! “
What these DODOs are really terrified of is the idea that Little Princess will wind up moving back home and becoming a burden to Daddy again.
Always remember: American parents see their children as burdens to be tolerated, not treasures to be loved. Princess is the equivalent of a tumor that can’t be removed until it turns 18. The idea of it growing back after it has been removed is too much for DODO to stomach.
Feeriker:
Yeah. Surely the GOP has learned by now that, save for a few exceptions, blacks will NEVER vote Republican/conservative. They might ACT conservative and conduct some parts of their public lives in a somewhat conservative way. But at the ballot box, 90+% of blacks pull the lever for the candidate with the (D) next to their name. It’s just the way it has been for the past 50 years and the way it will be for the foreseeable future. It’s just political reality – blacks are the originators of modern identity politics, blacks vote as a virtual monolithic bloc, and that’s just the way it is.
“Compassionate conservatism” didn’t bring more blacks to the GOP. Promising goodies didn’t do it. High profile black candidates didn’t do it. Running Alan Keyes in Illinois against Barack Obama for the open senate seat in 2006 as a last minute replacement for Jack Ryan didn’t do it – Obama blew him out by 50 points. (This, after Obama ran against Bobby Rush for Congress in 2002 or 04, and Rush destroyed him by painting Obama as “not black enough”.)
Nate and other of his Millennial ilk grew up without a strong father figure to teach them things like the value of hard work and delayed gratification, which is why you see them giving roundhouse kicks to women at pro-life rallies and shouting, “Keep your hatespeech off this campus!” when Right-leaning political commentators speak on college campuses. They also had the natural rough-and-tumble that boys have drowned in a sea of Ritalin and Feminist shame. Stands to reason.
I skimmed the latest Wilson article. A couple of thoughts:
–he’s a terrible writer. Meandering all over the place. I can’t decipher what he’s trying to say. And thus I can’t tell what he really believes. A man whose thinking is this muddled probably has some trouble figuring out what his theology is and probably shouldn’t be pastoring a church.
–why so many words, when reference to the Scripture itself, and tradition and experience and the writings of Church fathers, would suffice?
@ BillyS
I’m well aware of the white collar end. I’m a mechanical engineer. I work for an aerospace manufacturer. We can’t keep engineers, because so many other manufacturers and engineering firms keep poaching them. The competition for good employees is intense right now.
Right now, I’m doing both my job (project engineer), and an additional job (product engineer), because my product engineer left for another opportunity, and we haven’t been able to fill his old position yet. I almost ended up doing the process engineer’s job, too, but fortunately, we hired someone for that.
And we’re hiring kids right out of college, with no experience, for good pay. And so are other companies. My quality engineer’s daughter is finishing up her engineering degree. She has multiple job offers already.
I understand that looking for a job after 50 is tough. I don’t envy you. My college mentor went through that recently, but fortunately, he found a great construction management job close to home.
It’s a job-seeker’s market right now. Those good times won’t last for ever, so it’s a good idea to take advantage of them while they’re here.
@Cane Caldo
Appreciate the thoughts. I didn’t realize it was posted in another thread. Sorry for the mix-up.
@Dalrock
I am not sure who you mean by “you guys.” I am not affiliated with Wilson in any way other than reading his blog. I am also not complaining or bitching about anything. I am simply coming at this from the fact that guys in my congregation read both of you (primarily because I have introduced most of them to your blog). When they see Wilson demand that “obey” be in the marriage vows and then see you label him a raging left wing feminist, it leaves them scratching their heads. Me, too, frankly. Being an ally doesn’t mean agreeing on everything or never criticizing. Just seeing that we are moving in the same direction. I wish you would see that.
In any case, thanks for the time. I know you didn’t have to respond. It is appreciated.
‘Reverse incentives’: in a picture
I think the whole tax thing is one of many reasons why you work for treasures in Heaven where the thief can’t steal them.
Thanks BJ
This has me scratching my head. Can you point me to the post where I’ve labeled him as you describe? Alternately, can you point me to a post where I have either criticized him without specifically quoting what I was criticizing, or where I have misquoted him or misrepresented what he wrote?
BJ
When they see Wilson demand that “obey” be in the marriage vows and then see you label him a raging left wing feminist, it leaves them scratching their heads.
Wilson is in the habit of giving with one hand and taking with the other. He may well demand that “obey” be in marriage vows, but then turn around and redefine “obey” in his own peculiarly mushy way so that most or all meaning is drained from the word. He thus gets to play to both the “traditional” “conservative” men and the conservative feminists via obfuscation and ambiguity. The latest article is something of a study in that “on the one hand but on the other hand” game playing.
Are you sure you are actually reading this site? I do not recall Dalrock ever labeling Doug Wilson as a “raging left wing feminist”, and I have read all his articles on Wilson. If you could provide a link to Dalrock’s text in question that would be helpful.
This is what happens when men are too socially inept to ever find a girl who would want to touch them even with fork. They grow bitter and look back to “happier” times when men could just demand sex and loyalty from women. The whole conservative white movement is based on sexual frustration. It’s no secret that women tend to prefer progressives to boring conservatives. Thus, these people absolutely hate the left. It won’t do them any favours with women though. Luckily, the problem will solve itself. They will die without spreading their faulty genes. Evolution in action, sorting out the trash.
@thedeti: “Jeff Strand, there is NO way you’d give your daughter to a “lowly” tradesman, even if he is successful. I know guys like you. Men like you expect their daughters to marry doctors, lawyers, bankers and businessmen, who they won’t be sexually attracted to and who they will be miserably unhappy with, and who they will marry for money and status, and who they will divorce rape 10 or so years in when the last kid goes to kindergarten”
LOL, no my friend, you clearly don’t know me at all.
Why don’t you tend to your own vineyard? I don’t pretend to know you and to tell you what your daughter is going to do in her life – after all, I don’t know either of you.
You’re just embarrassing yourself. By all means, share how you’ve raised your kids and how it’s turning out if you like. But pretending you know how things will turn out for the kids of other commenters, whom you don’t know from a hole in the ground? Lame. Very lame,
P.S. It’s interesting the assumption you make about not being sexually attracted to a doctor, lawyer, banker, etc. Agian, you’re wrong on this point too, based on my experience.
I’m an extremely successful, professional guy…on the same level with doctors and lawyers. And my wife has always been VERY sexually attracted to me, from our first date (where we had so much chemistry we couldn’t keep our hands off each other) until now, almost 20 years later, when we STILL can’t keep our hands off each other, lol. And I had the same mad passion and chemistry with a number of girlfriends prior to meeting my wife….virtually all of whom wanted to marry me. That’s just my factual experience.
Anyway, I’d advise not just my kids but anyone: if you don’t have chemistry to the point you literally want to tear the clothes off your partner and jump his/her bones, then you shouldn’t be marrying him/her! The exception being people who marry later in life for companionship, e.g. widows and widowers.
The number of guys who are great providers AND look like male models is very small and the odds of your daughter marrying one of these guys is very small.
Mine is both.
https://ljubomirfarms.wordpress.com/2018/10/29/silly-man/
https://ljubomirfarms.wordpress.com/2017/12/21/a-little-something-different/
And on a serious note, I married the male equivalent of what men here refer to as a unicorn. What I don’t understand is how women convince themselves to marry men they were never really that into.
Hopelessly romantic, I keep wishing I could talk to them. Help them find the spark that was there in the beginning. I mean, there had to be something.
They have to cultivate the attitude that combats the bitchy grass-is-always-greener (her husband is better than mine) one.
Hold your fire BJ for a few min if that is ok. I’ll put up a post welcoming anyone who wants to defend Pastor Wilson to do so.
Hey, seems everyone here has this all under control. From Jeff, to Scott to Mychael to BJ Wilson and Jonathan Castle.
Well guys, I hope you all really do. You married perfectly and it’s all so wonderful.
It’s quite tedious hearing of your perfect lives. Why are you even here? Go live those lives instead, nothing is wrong at all, everything is perfect and it’s really only the losers who can’t make it.
Yet, here you all still are…
What I don’t understand is how women convince themselves to marry men they were never really that into.
Easy. Women do it all the time. Get her to 30 or so, divorced or a single mother, living in poverty or close to it. Or, around 30, single/never married, with an N north of 15, undiagnosed personality disorder and unresolved daddy issues. That last one right there describes a cohort of probably 5 to 6 million adult women, at least, just in the US alone.
But pretending you know how things will turn out for the kids of other commenters, whom you don’t know from a hole in the ground? Lame. Very lame,
I don’t need to know you. I know human nature. I understand male and female nature, and how sexual attraction really works in real time, in the field.
@Mychael: “They have to cultivate the attitude that combats the bitchy grass-is-always-greener (her husband is better than mine) one.”
It’s interesting you say that. My wife runs into the opposite problem with her girlfriends. You see, my wife is very happy and content being my surrendered wife and a SAHM to our daughters. She feels like she is the luckiest gal in the world, and is always thanking me for working so hard to give her the life that I have. After nearly two decades, we are still really, truly in love with each other.
And far from thinking “the grass is greener”, my wife tells me regularly how lucky she is to have me, how there’s no one else out there like me, how she feels sorry for all the single girls today, and how if any woman tried to come between us, she would kick her ass…because “I fight for my man”.
Btw, when my wife tells me how lucky she is to have locked me down because I’m “perfect for her”, I always respond by simply stating, “We’re not perfect, but we’re perfect for each other. And that’s all that really matters.”
So what’s the problem? It’s that when she’s out with her gf’s, all they want to do is bitch and complain about their hubbies. My wife says when it’s her turn to talk, they expect her to say something bad about her hubby too – that’s what they want to hear. She always refuses to do so. But she says she feels the pressure from them to do so – if you don’t, you get the vibe from them of “What makes you so special? How come don’t have problems in your marriage like the rest of us? You think you’re better than us?”
It’s a real problem how gf’s sabotage each other’s relationships. And my wife tells me she thinks the problem in these other marriages is largely the fault of her gf’s, not their husbands! She’ll tell me, “so-and-so’s hubby is a good guy and works hard for the family. Why can’t she just appreciate him? Would it kill her to dress up sexy for him and show him a good time in the bedroom? Or to make his fav dinner and have his fav beer chilled for him when he gets home from work? Or to just plain stop nagging him? What’s wrong with these broads? How is it they don’t know how to keep a husband happy – it’s not rocket science!”
So now we have a little inside joke that our household is “our little bubble”, insulated from all the craziness and feminism out in the real world. And we like it that way!
Cheers!
This.
I remember during the Dot Com days. If you had any experience and didn’t come across as an idiot, you could find a new job in no time. I recall getting offers within hours of the interview, and I don’t walk on water, I have always been a good but average coder. The interview was usually just an hour with the hiring manager and maybe the technical lead.
Fast forward to today:
-First, 2-3 people phone screen you, and they try to trip you up with trick questions. Most candidates will crash and burn at this stage.
-If you get past that then there is the coding test, where you have to solve a non trivial programming task (usually online at some website) in a limited amount of time, like an hour or two. We do these where I work, and more often than not the candidates do not complete the assignment and tell us that they need more time, which they are not given. These websites even compile the code and run it against test cases, to verify your results. Only perfect scores are accepted to move to the next step.
-If you get past the coding test you get invited to an all day in house interview, where you get to run an exhausting gauntlet of interviews where you get grilled and get asked even tougher trick questions. They might take you out to lunch, but I’ve had interviews where I was left alone in the conference room with a Subway sandwich.
-Then you get to wait and wait. After a week or two you might hear back from them that you didn’t get the job, but radio silence is not unusual. And you often have to wait that long to get an offer, should you be the chosen one.
Today’s hiring process doesn’t sound to me like jobs are going begging, but rather that employers have plenty to choose from and are being very picky. When we have an opening we get a deluge of experienced applicants. Back in the Dot Com days you got maybe 2 or 3 applicants, and you snagged the first candidate that seemed to be competent, because if you waited too long (like a day or two) someone else would hire him. Oh, and you always offered them a good bump over their current pay, in case someone else also made them an offer. None of the “would you consider a lateral” stuff you often hear these days.
Another sign of a tight job market: no raises,except for maybe the top 10% ranked in the org. And I see this everywhere. Have been told more than once, by various employers that “we don’t do cost of living pay increases”
@thedeti: “I don’t need to know you. I know human nature. I understand male and female nature, and how sexual attraction really works in real time, in the field.”
Translation: you’re an arrogant ass. Got it.
Mychael
What I don’t understand is how women convince themselves to marry men they were never really that into.
It’s called “settling”. I’ve seen a few examples, women aged 27 to 32 who may have ridden the carousel, or may have just mostly watched it; realizing that their looks are in decline they decide that Mr. Beta is “good enough”. I’m rather sure you have seen this yourself in some form, at least on social media. Although it is true the tells can be somewhat subtle, they are visible.
No, Jeff, I’m not smarter or arrogant. I just know more, because I’ve seen more and experienced more, and learned it the hard way. I’m also willing to admit when I don’t know something, and I’m willing to incorporate new knowledge into old and discard that which doesn’t work or is proven wrong.
And along comes Anon Reader, who said it better than I did.
Mychael, these women settle. I’ve seen MORE than a few examples.
This coming from you is not lost on anyone.
“Jeff Strand”
you’re an arrogant ass.
Irony.
When are you going to share with us the data and research that back up your bogus “10% divorce rate” claim? You do understand that “because I say so” doesn’t count, and handwaving about a Google search that you didn’t save is disingenuous, right?
PS: I don’t like liars.
@Jeff Strand
“you’re an arrogant ass.”
You are projecting.
Deti’s commentary has been quite helpful to me in adjusting my behaviour to deal with the way relationships actually work.
Your commentary is tooting your own horn.
To be fair, Mr. Butcher appears to be a mulatto. So you cannot ignore the racial component.
purge187 is right on about fatherlessness.
1. Over 50% of young men are raised in broken homes without their father. These have no model.
Most of those who are raised in an intact home are not taught properly by their fathers, and are disgusted by their mothers. There is often not a happy family life to desire to emulate. Their parents marriage is not a blessing.
2. Our culture and laws teach young men that they cannot own anything. Your wife won’t belong to you. Your children won’t belong to you. Your home won’t belong to you. Your career income won’t belong to you. It can all be taken away from you at a whim. Why work hard to build a life you cannot keep?
3. Egalitarian entitlement. Resentment fills those who believe the doctrine of “income equality.” No one is equal, and you do not deserve to be paid what you are worth, as if your personal worth has anything to do with compensation for your labor. Resentment leads to sloth, and sloth to ruin.
One of the most eye-opening things I’ve read on your blog (which is a high bar…you’re very insightful especially when analyzing data) was the allegory to the old Soviet model. “We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us” as they used to say.
Though I do think you slightly miss the correlation/causation issue for the marriage premium. Women and employers both value intelligence, hard work, strength/health, diligence, conscientiousness, and ambition. Men lacking some or all of these traits, colloquially known as “losers,” wouldn’t marry 150 years ago, either.
I believe these traits combine in the modern world, where marginal men – who might have become solid, boring, salt-of-the-Earth middle class types have decided that deferring pleasure isn’t worth it because the certainty of payoff is much lower.
thedeti,
I don’t see any need for you and me to have a feud going. Truth is, I’ve enjoyed many of your posts. Even if I don’t always agree with you, I find your views interesting.
So I’m just asking you not to get personal by bringing my kids into it. You’ll notice I don’t talk about your daughter, and claim to know what her outcomes will be…I don’t even know her!
Fair enough of an ask?
He didn’t bring your kids into it. As you’ve stated before, he does not know them personally. He brought them in as an abstract. That’s only as ‘personal’ as you allow it to be.
Your daughters are as much female as all women and thus subject to the same problems. That is all that Deti has done.
You’ve shamed away Jeff, thus your imploring of others to respect you or your family is disingenuous. Fuck off.
LOL at all the boomers talking about Good jobs and working your way up. You can produce plenty of job ads, and they will never call you if you don’t have the right experience or heavy education. I worked security (think the guy behind the desk in the office lobby) in college, graduated with a bachelor’s degree, and tried to “start at the bottom”. I could not get called back for $10 an hour data entry jobs. It took an extra legal profession certificate to get my first office job, a $12 data entry temp position.
Oscar,
I work in information security and the field is not as open as your experience. Sure, lots of jobs to fill, but lots of BS on the hiring end. See Frank K’s note for some indication of how things are.
It may be different for mechanical engineers, but that it is much different track than programming or information security. Both may be white color, but far fewer H1Bs in mechanical engineering I would guess.
Jeff,
How about you follow your own advice? You are the one parading (in the very same reply) to be such an alpha that all of us should hang our heads in shame. Blow it out your own rear, though you may want to get your head out of the way first.
Mychael,
I think your husband wasn’t all that when you married, at least that is what I got from some of his recent posts. You are completely correct that the woman can have a great impact on her own marriage. My wife could have been very happy if she wanted to be happy. She saw herself instead as a slave and refused anything that would have changed that view, which is why she finally bailed, completely against the Bible she still claims to follow.
My wife only opened to that when she fully realized she was one of the last women in the small church we met in to pair off and her close friend started to try and move on me. She also “saw my potential” in her own words, but left because I didn’t live up to that, at least not in her mind. (She figured I would carry her to the destination, not that she would have to help achieve that. Helping was never in her mind.)
That mindset allows a start, but leads to failure.
Stop looking in the mirror and projecting Jeff. Are you sure you are not Artisanel Toad?
What do you do for all the muscle strain from patting yourself on the back so much?
You make it personal and then complain that it is personal.
Strand, your posts do not add value, they can be summed up as “be like meeeee!!!!!”
You are always boasting about your wonderful family, and now want them to be left out of it. If you aren’t here to be sharpened and improve, even if it is only in the way you raise your kids, you ought to reconsider posting.
Put another way, if you are successful and worthy to lead, start a blog and put it out there so interested men can follow your example.
I might even read a post or two there to get your perspective. Your posts here are just boring to read, but they don’t contain actionable advice or helpful information like a blog post would (or should).
Jeff
I have no interest in a feud with anyone. YOU brought your kids into the discussion. YOU bring your marriage into the discussion.
Here’s the point. You’re painting a picture of a sexual and marriage marketplace that doesn’t exist in real life. The last time it existed around the Midwest, where I’m from, is around 1985. You have no idea what’s going on in real time. You don’t know what conditions are on the ground. You’re like a 3 star general who won’t listen to field commanders telling him, bluntly, what is actually going on on the battlefront.
There aren’t sufficient attractive high value men to go around to all the women who want one. The odds are NOT in your daughters’ favor. They’re just not. They’re not in my daughters’ favor either. Girls are not realistic about what they can really, truly attract and keep long term. The entitlement is off the charts. They confuse their sexual market values with their marriage market values because the men they can get for sex are much, much more attractive than the men they can get for relationships and marriage.
Men are so thirsty they’ll have sex with 400 pound landwhales. Men are so beaten down and deprived, they’ll take crappy treatment from harridan harpies for YEARS. There’s no reason for men to improve themselves. They have no authority and all the responsibility. They have no reasonable guarantees they will get to keep any of what they built. Society won’t back them up, and in fact is openly hostile to them and their attempts to control what’s “theirs”. And the moment they marry, the woman they marry can destroy it all on a whim or merely because she’s “unhaaaaappy”.
@FH: “Well guys, I hope you all really do. You married perfectly and it’s all so wonderful. It’s quite tedious hearing of your perfect lives. Why are you even here? Go live those lives instead.”
I get where you’re coming from. But I can tell you, there is no motive on my part to “rub your nose in it.” And while I can speak only for myself, I doubt anyone else is trying to either.
But we have a story to tell, that readers here have a right to hear – esp the young guys who are making decisions that will affect their entire lives. You want the only message they hear to be that all women are bitches, there are no NAWALT’S, no man should ever marry and have kids, exactly zero marriages turn out to be successful and happy, every man who marries will get frivorced and screwed over, etc.
Now that’s quite a different message than telling these young men to go into a marriage (if they choose to wed, as most will) with their eyes open. Pointing out to them that the laws are stacked against them if things go south. Warning them to take all possible precautions and to do all they can to improve their odds…for example, by making sure to NEVER marry a feminist. And so on. Because those are messages we can all support!
But claiming it’s an established fact that all women are bitches and every guy who gets married will regret it? That’s just not true. NAWALT’S might be pretty thin on the ground these days, but they do exist (as some of us know first hand). And yes, a sizable number of guys do enjoy lifetime marriages that are very happy and fulfilling, esp when you add in the joy of raising children. These stories should be heard, just as the horror stories about betrayal, false accusations, and divorce rape deserve to be heard. All the facts should be known. Everybody’s story should be told.
So I make sure that everything I say about my experiences in dating and then marriage are 100% true and accurate. Anything you’ve read that I’ve claimed happened, believe me, it really happened that way. And yes, my story involves a happy marriage to a NAWALT. That’s not bragging, it’s just stating a fact,..and I’d be lying if I said otherwise. So what you take as me “rubbing your nose in it” is nothing of the kind – it’s wanting the younger guys to know there are many possibilities. Telling my story shows something that’s possible. Just as someone talking about how he was divorce raped shows something that’s possible. I’m the last guy to want to silence those stories.
I’d conclude by saying there’s no need for us to be adversaries, but I’m not that naive. I know that the minute I mention the fact that I’m happily married to a good woman, I become your enemy. You’re fully invested in the “all women will destroy you and every man who marries gets screwed over” narrative, and I’m a threat to that narrative. That makes me a threat to YOU, because it implies you just might have some control over you own romantic destiny. After all, if ALL women are traitorous bitches, then you’d be foolish to even try, right? You can just sit on the sidelines, smoking pot and jerking off to p0rn, being bitter but smug in the knowledge that there’s no use to even try – there’s not ONE good woman out there, not even ONE!
I submit that this is not a productive or positive attitude (to put it mildly). It’s self-defeating and it won’t lead you to any place good.
@thedeti: “Men are so thirsty they’ll have sex with 400 pound landwhales.”
Speak for yourself, lol.
thedeti,
Yeah. Surely the GOP has learned by now that, save for a few exceptions, blacks will NEVER vote Republican/conservative. They might ACT conservative and conduct some parts of their public lives in a somewhat conservative way. But at the ballot box, 90+% of blacks pull the lever for the candidate with the (D) next to their name.
True, but that is not the point here.
A black man could not have raised that money from cuckservatives. But a white woman could have.
The issue here is the pedestalizing nature of cuckservatives, and how they deserve to be swindled by an astute entrepreneur.
Strand is like a male insanitybytes, with his constant “man up” sermonizing and his inability to be teachable.
Look man, are you just wanting the next generation to man up and be nice guys so your daughters aren’t treated the way you treated women when you were young? Because you are talking to the wrong crowd if that’s the case.
Or is it that you are wanting successful beta men to wait for them someday?
Anyone should be able to see what a warzone it is out there between the sexes, and to those with kids, it’s terrifying. But if you want to change things, fix no fault divorce instead of virtue signaling like some kind of papal churchian.
making sure to NEVER marry a feminist
All women are feminists. Go up to any woman and tell her you believe the right to vote should be restricted to men. Go to any woman (or man, for that matter) in your church and tell them you believe women shouldn’t have the right to vote. Go to any woman and tell her you believe women’s place is in the home rearing children while husband goes out and works. You’ll find out just how feminist they are.
NAWALT’S might be pretty thin on the ground these days, but they do exist (as some of us know first hand).
There are not anywhere close to enough. Most men can’t recognize them. Most men cannot attract them and keep them. And all women, even the NAWALT unicorns you insist are out there, can stop being unicorns and destroy their marriages, if they want to. The ONLY thing that restrains them is their own sense of fairness and self-interest. The ONLY reason all women don’t blow up their marriages is because it’s not in their interest to do so, for whatever reason.
You’re fully invested in the “all women will destroy you and every man who marries gets screwed over” narrative, and I’m a threat to that narrative.
But that’s not the narrative that’s being presented. The narrative that’s being presented is
“Ultimately, nothing will protect you from divorce rape if your wife decides to do it. There are a lot of men here who thought they had solid marriages who realized they were getting mistreated and the short end of the stick, and had to threaten to destroy their marriages to save them. There are more men here who thought they had solid marriages who found themselves divorce raped, some after 20 or more years of marriage. And they were married to (ostensibly) Christian women. You are not safe from divorce rape, no matter what you do. The only thing that keeps you married is that your wife has decided for today NOT to push that red “DETONATE” button the state, the Church, and her parents gave her on her wedding day.”
Because that’s the reality on the ground. It just is.
Jeff:
“Speak for yourself, lol.”
Exceptions exist.
And then…
…… fuck off Jeff!
7817
My blog is a place where I have tried to facilitate the conversation you are looking for.
Informed by the much more scholarly work of folks like Rollo and Dalrock I am trying to actually put those principles into action.
I’m not an academic and I am not a statistician. Although my education level makes me a pretty decent consumer of those products I’m really more of an action guy.
I wish there was more depth to my technical knowledge of interpersonal dynamics but all PhDs are not created equal. I was propelled, not necessarily willingly into management positions by the army early in my career.
Nevertheless, I want to restore honor to fatherhood. If it’s the only thing I contribute to these discussions I’ll be content.
“There aren’t sufficient attractive high value men to go around to all the women who want one.”
Invert the genders and you’re spot on.
@ BillyS
That’s always been the case. The interview itself is BS, and always has been.
https://www.wired.com/2015/04/hire-like-google/
Everybody knows this, and yet they keep using interviews anyway. There’s not much any of us can do about that.
Jeff Strand,
That right there is a great example of making something “personal” when there was no need to do so.
I understand you feel attacked. Do you need to do the same?
OKR,
Or you might have noticed the “lol” and realized it was a joke. Man, some of you guys are really wound up pretty tight…or are pretty oblivious.
Scott, I catch up on your blog regularly. It’s good, and lots of respect to you for setting an example in the open. It’s scary to do that these days. I don’t have the courage to blog under my name that way, but enjoy reading those that do.
We have a 22- year-old daughter who’s basically out of luck when it comes to getting married. There are just not enough suitable men to go around. Most worthwhile men in her age range are already married or engaged, and the rest who aren’t can command absolute perfection in the woman they choose. As parents, we really didn’t see that coming.
Our daughter is a debt-free virgin with no tattoos (haha), an 8/10 in appearance according to objective observers, fit and active, firm in her faith, kind and loyal, and would love to be a wife and SAHM more than anything else. Very not a feminist. She has a great sense of humor, but she’s reserved when she just meets people. She loves to cook and clean and decorate and make ordinary things special for the people she loves. On the downside, I guess for some, she has a degree and a career (that she’s very willing to give up for a family), lives on her own with her own money (too independent for some), she’s never dated anyone (which to some people is a red flag), and sometimes she has some acne (we’ve tried everything). She’s capable of driving a manual transmission and of doing manual labor (on missions trips or helping her dad around here), which I guess some people interpret as unfeminine (although the farm ladies at our church can do all that and more without becoming unfeminine). So she’s not terrible. Just not excellent enough to be chosen.
She’s constantly approached by the über-handsome PUA type who are quickly uninterested when they realize she’s not looking for one of them. But the men she’s attracted to—quiet Christian guys, handsome to her, productive, with good morals—never reciprocate her interest. I don’t know if they’re holding out for someone better or what. I keep hoping that eventually someone will realize he’s not going to get the ultimate dream girl and will settle for my daughter, but quite possibly not.
She’s starting to realize that she’s probably going to be left out of marriage and motherhood. It makes her sad, but she’s not willing to just grab someone to have someone and then make a train wreck of things. Her list of must-haves, as I outlined above, is short and pretty open, but there just isn’t anyone like that who’s interested in her, even though she’s done things “right” as a young woman.
It’s rough out there for young people these days.
@thedeti: “All women are feminists. Go up to any woman and tell her you believe the right to vote should be restricted to men. Go to any woman (or man, for that matter) in your church and tell them you believe women shouldn’t have the right to vote. Go to any woman and tell her you believe women’s place is in the home rearing children while husband goes out and works. You’ll find out just how feminist they are.”
My wife agrees that women should never have been given the vote, and she’ll happily tell you that a woman’s place is in the home, rearing children. Obviously, she’s not the only woman who’s anti-feminist. There’s a whole movement out there called the Surrendered Wife Movement.
So stop making blanket statements that all women are feminists. It’s just not true. It’s like saying all men are players.
I don’t believe you.
No, fuck you.
@Mychael,,
“What I don’t understand is how women convince themselves to marry men they were never really that into.”
Maybe they’re fat and unattractive women?
@feministhater
Sad but true. I pray about it all the time, she and I talk about it constantly. I think some of the problem is that she won’t consider a man who’s not a believer, but she doesn’t bend on that. (And I support her in that.)
At this point, Jeff Strand is a master troll, I think. He’s just describing life as it should be and allowing us all to recognize how far removed we are from that.
Well I’ve dated quiet Christian girls…I use dating as a means to see if marriage is a possibility…I ask them out if they show interest and things like acne or doing manual labor don’t bother me. From their behavior I’d bet they were more virgins than promiscuous. I’d rather they have some character because a lot of them are a mess.
They all eventually leave. They all state they prayed about it and God told them otherwise…(ok if the big guy says it who am I to argue).
However I got a daytime job, my own place, pay my bills, am 6’4″, work out a lot, and go to church. I lead and don’t do things like put down my masculinity or the patriarchy. Tell me why women don’t have any interest in that for marriage. I bet you it’s because they’ve all swallowed some aspect of feminism whether they know it or not.
Look man, are you just wanting the next generation to man up and be nice guys so your daughters aren’t treated the way you treated women when you were young? Because you are talking to the wrong crowd if that’s the case.
Yeah, I do think that that’s a big part of Jeffy’s schtick, masking the fear that his own daughters will be the victims of some badboy douchebag who is a carbon copy of his own (supposedly) younger self.
Well now, isn’t that a set-up. Why not get Jean’s daughter set up with Earl over here. I’m actually really interested to see if something like that would work.
Maybe it’s the answer to your prayers Jean…
Nah man…if one of his daughters finds a carbon copy of him, that would be great. Obviously only his daughters deserve an alpha…and to get an alpha they’d have to buy him a house, give him their body (before marriage of course…alphas can’t wait to do it licitly), and he could still take off after an engagment because…why not, he’s alpha.
Given the fickleness of women’s feelings I wised up a long time ago and will never do long distance again. 50 miles one way max.
They can change their mind just as easily if you live in the same town as if it requires a plane to see them.
It gets back to the guy who actually try are often punished or rejected…the guys who are the laziest, most degenerate, and corrupt (but have that ‘charm’) have the women flock to them.
If it doesn’t work out she can always divorce him and the courts will give her pretty much everything and shackle him to paying her. In theory she wins either way (in reality though a divorced woman still carries stigma…I don’t care what feminists say).
A question for Jean: does your daughter need a man for any purpose except sperm donor? You describe her as financially independent, socially independent, even manual labor-independent.
Do you think men react well to not being needed?
@Anonymous Reader
Perhaps you are correct. He does use some slippery language at times, which does lead him to be misunderstood, and I suspect some of that is intentional on his part. Either way, thanks for the comment.
Blessings.
I keep reading comments that basically go…
1. I’m everything women claim to want, yet no woman wants me. Or…
2. My daughter is everything men claim to want, yet no man wants her.
Something is seriously wrong here. Either someone’s lying, or deceived, or by some bizarre coincidence, these people keep overlooking each other.
@JohnJames: “At this point, Jeff Strand is a master troll, I think. He’s just describing life as it should be and allowing us all to recognize how far removed we are from that.”
That would be a no.
My life is not perfect, never claimed it is. But everything I’ve said about my situation and experience is 100% true. So yes, my wife happens to be redpill and very much anti-feminist…is that so hard to believe? Well, regardless, it’s the truth.
“Earl” said: “However I got a daytime job, my own place, pay my bills, am 6’4″, work out a lot, and go to church. I lead and don’t do things like put down my masculinity or the patriarchy”
I guess I should channel FH and say:
I don’t believe you. But hey, nice troll job you’ve got going on there.
@earl I’ve learned to stay out of trying to set anything up for anyone, haha. But I do hope you find the good woman you’re looking for.
@Gunner Q She can do all these things because, partnerless, she has to. She’s not proud about it. She’d gladly give up her career and income and independence to be a wife and mother.
(Our family might be a bit different in that we believe that a woman should be able to contribute meaningfully to the family income in times of need. For example, I worked nights so we didn’t need daycare while my husband got his business started. That was my husband’s decision of how best to deploy the “talent” on our team at the time. It was hard work for both of us, but we pulled together and made it. Now that he’s very successful, I’m holding everything down at home again. It works for us, we’re very happy with the life we built together, and no one is going anywhere.)
Well I can just tell you my side of the story. I don’t know what education women get nowadays but I can’t be led to believe it’s anything but feminism….even if they are Christians.
I don’t get how a woman can like the fact I’m leading the relationship one day and then another day just decide she can’t take it anymore. That sounds like feminism to me.
Ah yes, of course. What ever would she do if she weren’t independent, strong, empowered woman that she is. She cannot rely on men and hence she now really can’t expect to. She is not in direct competition with the very men she hopes to marry, probably took her husband’s job too.
I hope you understand that my sympathy for your daughter just went out window. She drank the feminist juice.
That should read… “she is now in direct competition….”
@Oscar
I’m certainly not everything a feminist wants…I worship God, believe the patriarchal structure is best and how God set up marriage works, the husband is the head and the wife is to submit, promsicuity is sinful, wrong, and destructive and that masculinity is certainly not evil.
Now could you guess how many women in America TRULY are not feminist or have some facet of feminism they support?
“What I don’t understand is how women convince themselves to marry men they were never really that into.”
Because the pressure for women to marry is huge. Society judges women based on if they are married or not and many will rush into this decision just to keep up with their girlfriends. There is also the biological drive to have kids and its like musical chairs. Once the eggs start ticking women pick a chair, any chair and go with it before the music and fertility stops. If women were to hold out for unicorn men like, Scott, they would never marry, never have kids. You won the lottery. So the reason why others do this, why they settle, is because not everyone can win the lottery.
“Hopelessly romantic, I keep wishing I could talk to them. Help them find the spark that was there in the beginning. I mean, there had to be something.”
Was there a spark with your ex that you could have rekindled? I recall you had one child from another man. If someone had talked to you, would that have helped the relationship?
What I don’t understand is how women convince themselves to marry men they were never really that into.
Eh, this is easy to explain.
Lots of folks are very average in attractiveness and many others are below average. They’re not going to ever be with someone who really is that attractive, and so if they want to avoid being alone, they compromise when selecting a mate. If everyone could find people they were so into that they wanted to rip each others clothes off all the time, the world would be a very different place (Logan’s Run, maybe ?), but in a world where most people are really kind of very average and plain and many others are just unattractive lots of people have a choice between being alone and being with someone who is sub-optimal (as they are themselves), so they settle. Another option is becoming more attractive to attract a more attractive mate, but many people are capped effectively in that area as well.
When we make marriage about people who are tear the clothes off attracted to each other, we are again making it for a kind of subset of more attractive people.
Well, feministhater, that’s not actually how it is. We have a family business, and my daughter chose to enter that field because that’s what she grew up with. Her goal is not to be a strong, independent, empowered woman—her goal is to be someone who makes the most of what God gave her while she hopes to get the privilege to pour it all into a marriage and family some day. As a matter of fact, she avoids groups and causes that promote feminism, as she doesn’t believe any of that fits God’s plan for women.
I hope you aren’t writing off good women in your life by looking at them from the outside and assuming you know what’s in their hearts and minds.
Or there is some wisdom in saying marriage is more than just sex only. Sex is a part of marriage…but it’s not the whole thing.
Millenials are so special. I agree this guy does not have the right incentives but it is still pathetic. “Pay me what I’m worth”. They are paying you what you are worth moron. You are not Harry Potter the chosen one with intrinsic value. You have no skills you get no pay.
Gen X and Boomers having survived divorce cannot imagine putting their kids out on the street when they are not progressing.
Deti, Dude. Chill. In your zeal, you have mischaracterized me and others. Your anger has extended beyond individual women, to all women, then to all the fathers – even red-pilled ones.
At some point, you gotta round the corner from red-pill rage and ask yourself ‘now what’? How do you and yours navigate the world the way it is, not the way you want it to be.
A RP father should want his daughter to avoid the degredation of the CC, marry young, have babies and stay married, since it’s mostly in her power. There are no princesses in my family.
Things are aweful today for sure. To the point where my advice to my oldest son is: get married early, have babies early and if you get frivorced after that, you won’t have much money to lose anyway. And you got kids which is the only thing we really need from women.
And If he finds himself unmarried at 35 with assets, i’d basically tell him to have kids out of wedlock (I say that even as a Christian).
I’ve navigated the dystopia of the modern dating scene in my 40’s after a frivorce. Not a lot of fun actually. I know full well about the nature of women unchecked from any moral code and paternal expectations.
Nevertheless, i’m mostly happy and productive and very active in my kids’ lives.
I don’t know you, but it seems like you’re stuck in a bad place. Unstick yourself so you can roam this world as a man unfettered.
“Earl”,
If none of the girls you’ve dated is interested in continuing in a serious relationship that could lead to marriage, the problem is you, not them. YOU are the common denominator in those dating relationships. So take a look in the mirror and see what you need to change.
Otherwise, you’re no better than the cat lady who claims the reason she couldn’t find a husband is because “all men”. And like we tell such a woman to stock up on batteries, cat food, wine, and meals for one….if you don’t change you better stock up on the beer, weed, video games, fantasy football picks, p0rn, sex dolls, and hand lotion.
It is what it is. No woman owes you anything. You’re either something she’s looking for, or you’re not. And if the latter, you can try to change yourself, or you can stay the same, be lonely and miserable, feel sorry for yourself, and get bitter (which will make you even more unappealing to the fairer sex, so it becomes a vicious cycle). Choice is up to you.
I promise you, this is the best advice you will ever get.
The incentive to marry and have a family is powerful but it isn’t the only thing. I am 99% sure that without marriage I would still have worked myself to the bone in my youth to get where I am now. Most my friends had the same internal drive. That same impulse should exist in men independent of marriage but it also seems to be gone. I think the loss of societal respect for fathers is an issue but I think the enourmous wealth the millenials have grown up in has broken some of their brains. Hard work is for suckers now. Just relax and enjoy yourself. Not sure why it is hitting the boys sooner – that might be feminisms in action – but this problem goes beyond marriage and family. Some thing weird is really going on.
I know you are trying the ‘man up’ speech again…but rest assured the only way you ‘man up’ is to follow God’s commands. Not ‘Jeff Strand’s’.
@ Earl
I’m not faulting you. Nor do I think you a liar. I suppose you could be deceived (happens to the best of us). But I suspect that the problem is that lots of single young Christians keep overlooking each other.
Note that I suspect. I definitely don’t know.
It seems obvious to me that there’s a very real problem here, I just don’t know how to diagnose it, much less solve it.
@thedeti @feeriker
The college degree is the New Dowry. The problem of “what if the guy turns out to be deadbeat, in spite of all the careful vetting,” isn’t a new one.
But the historical dowry was obviously of fixed value, and not a renewable resource. Use it up, and you’re at the mercy of the kindness of strangers.
An education, on the other hand, is arguably renewable (as long as you are alive and in a functional condition to use it to provide value and get paid), so it makes more sense as a security. On the surface, anyway.
The problem is that, in its current form, it comes with a heaping helping of feminist indoctrination. If the form of security you are providing for your daughter, just in case of a really bad marriage outcome (including the unexpected death or disability of a spouse), is packaged with a metric ton of anti-male resentment, and a side-helping of sexual access to all the alpha-Chad playas their young bodies crave…
…then you’ve just “self-fulfilling prophesy-ed” yourself and guaranteed the bad marriage outcome you were setting up the plan B out of worries for in the first place.
Except now it will be your daughter’s own hand that inflicts the fatal wound, rather than chance and bad fortune.
Good job, King Laius.
Could be…although women usually do something to indicate they are interested in you. So I don’t know what Jean’s daughter is doing.
I don’t wait around…if she’s appealing to me and shows interest…I’ll initiate.
So I…who initiate these relationships with the goal of marriage and get rejected am no better than the women who reject pretty much any marital offer they get?
Yeah I really don’t think Jeff has a clue about much of anything when it comes to relationships…or he just enjoys tearing down other men so he can prove how alpha he is.
I just can’t wait until Jeff’s daughters bring home a marital interest and Jeff says ‘nope’ because he’s an air conditioning repairman who lives in a modest house. He should of looked in the mirror, ‘manned up’ and been a rich doctor who owns a mansion.
From Dalrock’s post:
“Predictably older conservatives will respond to the failure of our new family model by patting themselves on the back for working harder than young men like Nathan.”
You called your shot, and predictably Strand showed up to prove you right in this very thread.
@Oscar, to your point about overlooking each other…I think that happens. Some locations just aren’t great for young people looking for other relatively unspoiled young people who want to marry—there’s nowhere for them to meet. Out here in Hickland we have lots of churches that run young adult groups for study and socializing, but there’s nothing like that where my older kids live, just outside a large city.
And some of it is simply the chemistry mentioned several times in these comments. If you’re a Pam Anderson type of guy, you’re not going to want the Kate Middleton type. Some guys don’t like girls taller than 5’. Some aren’t attracted to brunettes. Some otherwise lovely women remind you in a bad way of your second grade teacher or someone else you don’t care to remember. I think these days there are several quality women per quality man, at least in the more conservative Christian sphere, and not everyone gets selected for reasons that can’t always be discerned.
@earl Good for you for initiating if you are interested. At least you are being clear and direct. There’s so much ambiguity these days, and texting/social media seem to compound it.
Now, if a young woman were interested in you, how would you expect her to convey her interest? How much is too much, and how little is imperceptible? I met my husband when I was 15, so I’m really at a loss on this when it comes to adults.
“Earl”: I just can’t wait until Jeff’s daughters bring home a marital interest and Jeff says ‘nope’ because he’s an air conditioning repairman who lives in a modest house. He should of looked in the mirror, ‘manned up’ and been a rich doctor who owns a mansion.
LOL. You keep waiting buddy. Enjoy being an incel, you’ve definitely earned it, lol.
I’m not asking for Pam Anderson or supermodels. Hair color really doesn’t matter that much to me as long as it’s not chopped off. Sure I want her to look pleasant…but I want more for her personality to be pleasant.
If your daughter is a pleasant hard working helpful virgin…I’m sure things like acne won’t stop a guy that’s interested.
Jean,
Earl’s problem isn’t meeting women – he said he’s had plenty of dates. The problem is, once a gal dates him a few times and starts to get to know him, she bails. Apparently, every time. This indicates that something about Earl or in his personality is deeply repellent to women (at least to the women he’s had dates with).
He can either figure out what that is, and change it…or he can keep getting the same results and blame “all women”. The choice is his. As is the responsibility for the outcome.
Simple.
Eye contact, smiling, saying hi or starting a conversation with a guy, being in his general vicinity…my guess is your daughter might know some of these things subconsciously. Not going on a date doesn’t mean anything because I’m sure she’s had to like a guy at some point. If the guy likes her back I’d guess he’d ask for a date.
I’ve even had interest conveyed to me through their friends…which I’d guess is how most women do it so they don’t get rejected directly.
Ah, the old incel accusation. Favorite of feminists, whether they are purple haired, churchy, or brave sir galahad types.
May your insults come back to rest on you Strand.
Our daughter is a debt-free virgin with no tattoos (haha), an 8/10 in appearance according to objective observers, fit and active, firm in her faith, kind and loyal, and would love to be a wife and SAHM more than anything else.
This makes no sense at all. If your daughter really is what you say she is, she should have no trouble at all finding men who are interested. None whatsoever. There should be at least 5 men interested in her, and who have shown interest. I simply do not believe this. The only way this makes any sense is
–you live in a very small town and are isolated from most other people
–you live in an isolated, closed, cloistered religious group
–your daughter is sending signals of disinterest to men
I suspect this because you say she is reserved when just meeting people. Well, if your daughter really is attracted to “quiet Christian guys” with “good morals”, she’s going to have to step out a little and make that interest VERY VERY clear.
But the men she’s attracted to—quiet Christian guys, handsome to her, productive, with good morals—never reciprocate her interest. I don’t know if they’re holding out for someone better or what.
I don’t believe this either. She isn’t showing interest in them. If she really were showing interest in them, they’d notice and reciprocate. Your daughter could very, very easily get every single one of these men interested in her. Very easily.
Jean, there could be many things going on here. I don’t know. It could be any one or a combination of:
–Your daughter is not anywhere close to as physically attractive as you say she is.
–She isn’t really interested in these Christian men.
–If she is interested in these Christian men, she’s not showing it clearly enough.
–she’s sending signals to these Christian men that they are interpreting as disinterest, whether right or wrong.
–She isn’t as kind and nice as you think she is.
–You, and she, are isolated and cloistered.
–Her standards are too high.
–She isn’t really making herself available to men wanting to date her.
I enjoy Jeff’s projections. May his daughters marry masculine hard working repairmen.
So stop making blanket statements that all women are feminists. It’s just not true. It’s like saying all men are players.
That ONE woman believes women shouldn’t vote, that there are exceptions to the rule, does not negate the rule. The rare exceptions prove the rule. All women are feminists.
Heck the last girl I dated had acne…I still thought she was good looking and asked her out.
Her personality was a little cold though during the dates.
Most worthwhile men in her age range are already married or engaged, and the rest who aren’t can command absolute perfection in the woman they choose.
On what planet are “most worthwhile men” between the ages of 20 and 30 already married or engaged? On what planet can “most worthwhile men” between age 20 and 30 “command absolute perfection” in ANYTHING, much less in women?
Are you serious right now? What are you talking about? Most men, “worthwhile” or not, can’t get ANYTHING. No dates, no relationships, no wives, no sex, no nothing. They can’t even get Sally SundaySchoolTeacher to so much as look at them.
What? This is completely foreign to me. If I may ask, what part of the country are you from?
Earl,
You’re refusing to address the real question. What is it about you that drives off all the girls you’ve dated? You have to be honest with yourself and answer this question.
Never ceases to amaze me that lately I’m having to teach girls how to show interest in guys.
Another one was utterly confused that the guy she liked just ignored her. I asked…’well what did you do to show interest’?
-I hung out by the church door and was reading the bulletin.
Yeah I had to explain to her a guy seeing a gal reading a bulletin is going to think ‘she’s reading a bulletin’…not ‘she’s interested in me’.
Well one jumped in the lap of another guy in front of me
One moved back in with her parents because she couldn’t stay in the town I was in
One of them wondered why I wasn’t ‘taking advantage of her’.
One of them didn’t much care for the things I liked
One of them prayed to God about it and decided she couldn’t do it anymore
So obviously the problem is me.
But I’d expect this from DODOs…at least my father finally set me straight and told me the problem wasn’t me.
lots of people have a choice between being alone and being with someone who is sub-optimal (as they are themselves), so they settle.
Most women settle because marriage to an eh, OK, guess he’ll do guy is preferable to no marriage. It’s better to be divorced than never married. From women’s conduct, it seems that women would rather be able to say “well, at least I got SOMEBODY to marry me, even if it didn’t work out” than to have to say “I never married” which is read as “I was unable to get anyone to marry me”. And that last statement
“I was unable to get anyone to marry me”
is just a fate worse than death to a woman. It’s a fatal blow to her ego. It’s completely invalidating and disaffirming, and for women, who live and die on validation and affirmation of their value and worth as women, it’s just horrible. It’s an admission of complete worthlessness in the sexual and marriage marketplaces.
And that’s a major reason why women settle.
Now, if a young woman were interested in you, how would you expect her to convey her interest? How much is too much, and how little is imperceptible? I met my husband when I was 15, so I’m really at a loss on this when it comes to adults.
Read these:
http://moosenorseman.com/consider-the-puppy-learn-his-lesson/
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/09/13/feminine-wiles/
And then tell your daughter to go and do likewise.
@thedeti: “Are you serious right now? What are you talking about? Most men, “worthwhile” or not, can’t get ANYTHING. No dates, no relationships, no wives, no sex, no nothing. They can’t even get Sally SundaySchoolTeacher to so much as look at them”
Again, not my experience. I had no problems getting dates and relationships in my 20’s. My biggest problem was that most chicks I got involved with wanted to marry me. It was my pick who I would decide to wife up.
Where did this trope come from that guys in their 20’s can’t get dates and girlfriends? Then who are all the girls dating?
Earl: “Yeah I had to explain to her a guy seeing a gal reading a bulletin is going to think ‘she’s reading a bulletin’…not ‘she’s interested in me’.”
Great. You’re her beta orbiter and emotional tampon.
Earl: “But I’d expect this from DODOs…at least my father finally set me straight and told me the problem wasn’t me.”
Lol, Daddy told you that you’re a special snowflake and it’s not you? Are you even serious?
Yeah, I’m sure you’re right. It’s not you. It’s all women. Don’t change a thing, just keep doing what you’ve always done and wait for all women to change.
Seems reasonable.
LOL…look at Strand go.
I really do hope his daughters marry a God fearing chaste hardworking masculine tradesmen.
Yeah how dare a father build up his son…he should emasculate him to prove his alpha masculinity like Strand.
I’m sure Daddy made sure you always got a trophy. For “participation”, right?
Again, Earl…don’t change a thing. You’re fine, clearly the problem is simply all women. Just wait for all women to change, and you’ll be golden!
Cool…so they are going to stop fornicating with the ‘Jeff Strands’ of the world and keep it in marriage. Become God fearing, give up feminism and submit to their husbands. I can get behind that.
I don’t even care anymore. I’ve had enough of this shit to last 10 lifetimes. Your daughter went to college, got a degree and started a career. What the hell did you think was going to happen? She’s become her own husband.
You cannot put your daughters in competition with their potential suitors. It doesn’t work. Now you know.
Earl, your walk with Christ is admirable and to your eternal benefit.
But it wins you few if any points with Christian women, who want the same thing secular women want. It’s hardwired biology.
If anything, Christian men have to up the alpha more to overcome the perception they are inveterate nice-guys.
Yep, just be more alpha than the alphas, that’s the ticket. Be more alpha, hold frame, and be perfect at all times.
The juice ain’t worth the squeeze. Playing these games is stupid. You guys fix the problems because you’re all perfect. Stop complaining that younger men aren’t doing what you want them to do. They don’t have to. Let it all burn. What you dipshits going to do about it?
Nothing. Fuck you.
Jeff Strand,
What makes you think all the girls are dating? When I googled “where are all the good men”, I get about 1,840,000,000 results. That strongly suggests that there is very little dating actually happening.
In one of those results, Laura Trigss writes in her article Wondering Where All the Good Men Are?:
In other words, she had great difficulty finding someone she really wanted to be dating.
As some have suggested, you don’t seem to be living in the same world as the rest of us.
P.S. I’d also like you to go back to the post Whose Job is it to Keep Mama Happy? and address my comment about your 10% divorce rate, etc.
FeministHater : Yep, just be more alpha than the alphas, that’s the ticket. Be more alpha, hold frame, and be perfect at all times.
Haha, you’re taking things to the extreme conclusion. I for one don’t think you can alpha-game your way into a successful LTR or marriage.
But yeah, if you’re a weak-minded, weak-bodied man, you better improver yourself if you ever expect to even have an LTR.
Honestly though, in our 80-20 world many, many good, solid men are just going to go without women and children. Not a damn thing any of us can do about it.
If you’re in this bucket, I think you should do the difficult soul-work to find meaning and purpose in life without women. It can still be a great and noble life.
And count it a gift that a woman isn’t shit-testing you onto an early grave
Castle: FeministHater : Yep, just be more alpha than the alphas, that’s the ticket. Be more alpha, hold frame, and be perfect at all times.
Haha, you’re taking things to the extreme conclusion. I for one don’t think you can alpha-game your way into a successful LTR or marriage.
You see Castle, FH just doesn’t get it. To him, being Alpha in a relationship is a role you play. So you have to always be sure to “remember your lines” and “hold frame”, aka stay in character. Just thinking this way shows he’s a beta, bordering on omega.
Being alpha is not a role I play. This is the crucial part: me “holding frame” as an Alpha in my marriage is just ME BEING ME. There is no role being played. No more than my wife is playing a role as a submissive, surrendered housewife…she is just being who she is.
Honestly though, in our 80-20 world many, many good, solid men are just going to go without women and children. Not a damn thing any of us can do about it.
If you’re in this bucket, I think you should do the difficult soul-work to find meaning and purpose in life without women. It can still be a great and noble life.
This much I agree with. We’re already there – more and more men are going to do without, for their entire lives. More men who marry (as most do) will end up frivorced.
Jean,
“I think these days there are several quality women per quality man, ….”
I do not think this is true in 2018.
Here is FeministHater’s future. Earl’s too, if he’s not careful.
http://theothermccain.com/2018/11/05/another-incel-weirdo-tallahassee-shooter-was-public-school-teacher/
@thedeti Thanks for the links you posted. Very interesting. My daughter is very conscious of not “being annoying” to a man she’s interested in. I think she has begun to take the stance that if someone is interested in her, he will make it clear. Until that would happen, she assumes she’s just being a pest and embarrassing herself in trying to get to know him.
She’s a very good baker and takes treats to work all the time. I’ve already suggested making something for a guy she’s getting to know, but she’s afraid that’s too forward. I think she’s also concerned that any man she doesn’t know well may be stringing along several girls, so she doesn’t want to get her hopes up.
Maybe the older she becomes, she’ll be more willing to take a risk as forever alone is closing in.
Jean
I think you missed the point of the links. Your daughter needs to make very clear her interest in the men she’s interested in. Very clear. Crystal clear.
@Eatl: “Cool…so they are going to stop fornicating with the ‘Jeff Strands’ of the world and keep it in marriage. Become God fearing, give up feminism and submit to their husbands. I can get behind that.”
Does this mean to imply that you automatically rule out any girl who isn’t a virgin? How old (roughly) are you, and how old are the girls you’re targeting?
JJR,
Not true in the slightest. My wife was thin, that was about it. Physical aspects were not perfect otherwise and she was very contentious. I didn’t really care though, she was attractive enough for me. While I definitely noticed other women, I did not desire to pursue them in the slightest.
Men don’t need the same perfection women seek today. You need to open your eyes quite a bit.
Oscar,
I agree the interview process is rough, but you said it is a job seeker’s market, which is not true for me at all. That was my point. I have had several interviews I thought were good, but never heard anything later. Yeah, it may be me, but that many indicates a trend, not just a flaw. I have extensive experience, certifications, decent experience, etc.
(Anyone who needs remote work done in that area should ping me BTW.)
@thedeti I think I understood what the links were saying. I think my daughter isn’t doing that because she’s afraid she’s not good enough and that she’ll be bothering a guy by being “aggressive.”
I try to use her freshman roommate as as an extreme example to say it’s not always wrong to go after what you want. This girl with not a whole lot to offer literally found a guy on Facebook that had some mutual friends, started messaging him, went to his college to ask him to be her boyfriend, snd now they’re getting married. Being insanely ballsy got this girl exactly what she wanted. My daughter is convinced though that the type of man she wants would be turned off by her being forward. I don’t really know what to tell her.
I think from Jean’s perspective she is being honest and the key is the guy must be ” considered handsome” by her daughter. It’s known in the manosphere that at most 20% of guys are considered handsome and today that’s closer to 10%. If you remove the PUA’s and guys with obvious low morals the percentage of guys that could get a date with her daughter is in the mid single digits. If looks is important to your daughter she does have a very small pool but that is a choice and IMO it’s a bad choice that will exclude a lot of good men that would be good husbands and fathers.
Jean,
Does your daughter know how to be playful, flirtatious, sensual, and sexy with a man? If not, that’s something she needs to work on. That stuff is like catnip to a guy. If she’s not good at that, and another girl is, that other girl will get the man. Everytime.
Check out the book “Ho Tactics” for some tips on this topic.
“I think these days there are several quality women per quality man,”
Ludicrous. Just ridiculous.
Jean,
Your daughter may have merit, but the acne almost assures she is not an 8.
It may be the circles she travels in too, and I definitely suspect her acceptance level to even see appropriate men is far higher than any of you acknowledge. That is a very common problem today.
Too bad she wasn’t around about 30 years ago. I would be far too old today (in my own view), but then Boaz was a lot older than Ruth.
My exwife would have told you she was completely against feminism, but she followed it. Feminism is much more woven into our culture than many realize. You likely don’t even see it.
You do repeat the error that men want “Pamela Anderson.” Some really might, but I only had 3 things I sought before I married: thin, liked cats (I had 2) and ideally liked computers. I only got 2 out of the 3 but I was still happy. My wife was not because she only accepted marriage because the pool was drying up and she didn’t want to be left. I wish I had realized that at the time.
It is far harder for men than you realize. How many men has your daughter clearly expressed interest in? How much does she know about the young men you noted? What are their hobbies? What do they like to do? What are their goals? Most men will talk to any even somewhat attractive woman who wants to know things like that. Has your daughter ever dug into those things or is she just waiting for the man to do all the relationship approach work?
Deti,
I actually agree with Jeff that a 400 pound land whale is something I will never connect with. One of our very few points of agreement most likely. I am just not at all attracted to the women I seem to have interested in me for similar weight issues, even though most are not that extreme. It is a hard trigger for me.
====
And Jeff who doesn’t want to get personal throws out the personal insults. Only others are not allowed to be personal. It is fine for him. Must be an SJW at heart!
Jean,
Tell her she is being stupid and needs to adapt to today’s realities. Most people are glad to tell others about themselves. My past comments seem to have been confirmed. She expects him to indicate interest first, with no indication of interest on her part before that.
She needs to know that men are accused of harassment, etc. for just that all the time today. Many/most men are much more cautious. It also gets old to reach out multiple times and be shot down. She may think she is worth it, but she has to do a bit more to provide a clue to the man.
What hobbies does she have? Can she interact with target men in that area? Most likely she does not.
I would be very interested in a single woman who showed an interest in me, who was somewhat thin. Being faithful is far more important to me now, so I doubt I will find it, but I am not all that different from most men even though I am much older than the ones she is likely attracted to.
Jean,
Do watch out for Jeff’s advice. His wife believed so much in marriage (based on what he has posted in the past IIRC) so much she put out before marriage. Not a good plan for a woman who wants to be chaste. Though few Christian women today really want that, whatever they may say.
@Ray6777 “Handsome” to my daughter is just that, attractive to her. The men she’s been interested in are usually not conventionally handsome, certainly not the men most other girls are drawn to. Handsome to her is an overall look and demeanor she finds pleasing. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, is it?
Honestly though, in our 80-20 world many, many good, solid men are just going to go without women and children. Not a damn thing any of us can do about it.
I agree — this is quite true. Of course many of them will eventually marry *someone* — likely it either won’t last or won’t be happy if it does, however. Many of these would have been better off not marrying in the 80/20 world we live in. Marriage is for the best of the best really — not for everyone else.
BillyS,
While my wife was fairly sexually inexperienced and innocent (compared to her peers), it’s true she was not an actual virgin when we met and started dating, and I never claimed that she was. Recall that, as I previously mentioned, she was going on 25 years old when we met. And you know what? I wasn’t a virgin either, as I was already in my 30’s.
I didn’t have it as a deal-breaker that a 25 year old girl should be literally a virgin – just that she not be a slut, be sleeping with a bunch of guys, or have had ANY abortions. If someone else has a “virgins only” rule, that’s their choice. And that’s why I asked Earl his age – if you’re looking to meet your mate in high school, requiring she be a virgin is pretty reasonable. But if you’re dating girls in their mid to late 20’s, and you require a virgin? Well, let’s just say you’re the equivalent of the picky woman waiting for the hunky millionaire handyman…odds are you’re gonna come up empty.
Everyone is free to make their own choices, as I have. And I’m very comfortable with those choices. It didn’t really bother me that my fairly innocent and sexually inexperienced wife wasn’t literally a virgin, and it didn’t bother her that I was much more sexually experienced than she was, had a bunch of ex-gf’s in my past, and even an ex-fiancé. (Because of her sexual inexperience, there weren’t really any ex-bf’s on her part, so I didn’t have to deal with any of that)
Honestly, it’s never been an issue with us. And she actually has fun secretly keeping tabs on my ex-gf’s via FB…she’ll periodically give me updates on them, which we both think is barrels of fun.
And you know, just being able to laugh and joke with each other like we do is a big part of the joy of marriage. As always, YMMV.
@Jean: “Handsome to her is an overall look and demeanor she finds pleasing. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, is it?”
It depends. You’d have to answer the question I posed: is she comfortable in her sexuality around men? Does she know how to use her sexuality and feminine wiles to her advantage? Can she easily pull off being flirtatious, sexy, playful, flattering, etc when she’s on a date with a man she’s interested in? Can she push his buttons in all the right ways?
If yes, then I’m confident you’re definitely not asking too much. She shouldn’t have a problem.
Jeff Strand says:
November 6, 2018 at 6:39 pm
Here is FeministHater’s future. Earl’s too, if he’s not careful.
http://theothermccain.com/2018/11/05/another-incel-weirdo-tallahassee-shooter-was-public-school-teacher/
Interesting article, Jeff Strand. Especially the part that says, ”Beierle… shot seven people, including two women….”
Thus, the shooter that, like Elliot Rodger, killed more men than women (Rodger’s tally was 5 men 2 women) is ”another incel shooter”, when his tally actually included more men than women.
So preferring a woman who hasn’t gone through a number of Jeff Strands is comparable to a woman wanting a hunky millionaire handyman. She just has to not have sex with a man outside of marriage who thinks he’s an alpha…that’s a lot easier than her wanting that very specific type of guy.
I got to say it’s no wonder Jeff Strand won’t touch the fornication aspect with a ten foot pole.
No, depends on if she repented and understood it was a stupid thing to do…but I prefer a virgin. And certainly no divorcees or single mothers. They should try to reconcile with their husband or get with the father. I’m not cleaning up another man’s mess.
Jeff,
I wasn’t quite that old when I married, but I was a virgin, by choice. Some do buck the trend.
Sexual partners prior to marriage shows a lack of commitment to the sanctity of marriage.
Your situation, if portrayed accurately (which I greatly question) is one which you dodged the bullet and is the exception that would prove the rule, not something most men have any hope of achieving.
It is also not Biblical in the slightest, though a few elements may be somewhat compatible. Sex outside marriage is not only immoral, it makes divorce much more likely. That goes against your claims that your way is so wonderful.
I do believe men can get away with it more than women, but parading yourself as they example while you violated God’s requirements is not smart. I remember reading about deceiving others and millstones with water….
LOL…so some creepy perv who grabbed women’s butts and couldn’t get as much sex outside of marriage as Jeff Strand got shot a bunch of people (more men too as Spike pointed out)…is going to be my future.
Seems to me Strand doesn’t get it. I don’t want an endless buffet of fruitless forincation with hos…I want a wife.
I’d agree…there’s a reason why God’s command is to keep sex in marriage. For one unchastity often leads people away from God and towards idolatry.
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Eph 5:5
Earl: “No, depends on if she repented and understood it was a stupid thing to do…but I prefer a virgin. And certainly no divorcees or single mothers. They should try to reconcile with their husband or get with the father. I’m not cleaning up another man’s mess.”
I actually agree with you here. Divorcee’s and single moms weren’t on my radar either. I didn’t date any, and wouldn’t have married one,
Btw, it’s amusing that you are so strict in your expectations for women to adhere to Catholic dogma on sexual morality…but you have no problem with the Catholic “pope” clearly and publicly being a formal and material heretic! Are you schizophrenic?
P.S. To save an extra post, regarding the link I posted to the incel shooter…I’m sure you can see that was mostly tongue in cheek. But there is a bit of a warning there, more for FH than for you. FH’s hatred and bitterness towards all women is so extreme that I immediately thought of him when I read that article.
I find it amusing you keep going back to the pope…as if changing the subject to that means you can overlook the Catholic dogma on sexual morality which has been there regardless if you like the pope or not.
@BillyS: “It is also not Biblical in the slightest, though a few elements may be somewhat compatible. Sex outside marriage is not only immoral, it makes divorce much more likely. That goes against your claims that your way is so wonderful.”
I can only repeat what I’ve said: everyone can make their own choices. So sure, your view is that no one should marry anyone who isn’t a virgin. Great. You’re free to push that message all you want, and to embrace it in your own life. Maybe have her gynecologist verify for you that she is truly a virgin before you’ll consent to date her. Hey, go nuts. Good luck with that.
As I’ve said, I too have made my choices…and I’m fine with the choices I’ve made. I’m very grateful indeed for all my blessings, my family being at the top of that list. I am the head of my family, and I take that role seriously. And I teach my kids to pray fervently for one thing above all – that they never lose the Faith.
Cheers.
Earl: “I find it amusing you keep going back to the pope…as if changing the subject to that means you can overlook the Catholic dogma on sexual morality which has been there regardless if you like the pope or not.”
For the umpteenth time, it has nothing to do with “liking” the pope. It’s that the pope, being a public, formal and material heretic, is NOT EVEN A CATHOLIC. This is by canon law. So you are claiming that a non-Catholic is the pope! And that’s an absurdity.
Now, if your judgment on such a clear issue is such complete schit, why would you trust your judgment in any area of faith and morals? Including sins of the Sixth Commnadment?
For the umpteenth time…I’m talking about fornication which you seem to keep dodging. That has a lot more to do with the pertinent subject than your judgement that Pope Francis is a heretic.
Your “Pope Francis” says fornicattion isn’t a sin, so why should you have a problem with it? You believe Bergoglio is the legitimate successor to St. Peter, the Vicar of Christ on Earth. So when he said that fornication is A-OK, who do you think you are to contest it?
(If you want the source, look up Bergoglio’s comments about marriage, cohabitation, and divorce in June, 2016. Speaking of couples cohabiting without benefit of marriage, i.e. living publicly in the mortal sin of both fornication and public scandal, Bergoglio said these couples “have all the graces of marriage, I’m certain of it”, as long as they “are faithful”. By that last bit, I take Bergoglio to mean that they limit their fornicating to one partner at a time.)
Jean,
“She’s starting to realize that she’s probably going to be left out of marriage and motherhood.”
22 is still young, most women in America get married much older nowadays. Please, don’t give up hope. I met my wife at church, we were both in our 30’s when we got married. I don’t recommend waiting as long as we did but this is the culture we live in now.
Hope, believe, and pray that she finds someone, don’t quit believing so soon.
@ BillyS
Hey, I believe you. Opportunity is not distributed evenly; not by industry, not by location, not by age. In previous times, the tech industry was booming, and manufacturing was dying. Today, we manufacturers can’t keep up with orders, and neither can our suppliers or our competitors.
That doesn’t change the facts that I presented earlier. There is an abundance of opportunity right now. Obviously, not everyone will be able to take advantage of it, but the claim others made that there are no entry level opportunities for young men is both false, and counterproductive.
I realize that doesn’t apply to you. You’re not a young man looking for an entry level opportunity, which is what Dalrock’s post, the naysayers’ claims, and my reply to those claims, were all about.
Good luck, brother.
Jean,
Do you, as I would suppose you do, also believe that women are naturally more spiritual than men, women hardly ever sin, and women, not the men, are the ones who have the knowledge and expertise to maintain their marriages?
Oscar,
I am working now, so it is reasonably good. I am working from home. Below what I could likely get paid doing lower end work, but the commute is great.
Just remember that all white color work is not the same, which is the core point I may not have made well.
Bee,
Marrying later can make it harder to have children. I think that is one of the reasons I have no children that are biologically related to me now. My wife’s plumbing had some challenges already, but waiting until almost 30 didn’t help her at all.
I adopted, but that was another story and not the glorious story you see in some reports.
(Not that you were recommending couples wait Bee, but just noting it because so many do so intentionally.)
Tom Leykis
The college degree is the New Dowry.
Showing your age. Women with college degrees now often have $25,000 or more in debt. That’s a negative dowry and it likely is a factor in marriage rates. Not the largest, but a factor.
“Jeff Strand”
I had no problems getting dates and relationships in my 20’s.
It’s not 1988 anymore. Did you miss the memo?
Of course, you’re also the entity that pulled a “10% risk of divorce” out of thin air, or maybe something a bit thicker, but couldn’t back it up with facts. So maybe you aren’t exactly a reliable source on much of anything.
I don’t like liars.
You see. You say you’re not my enemy and then write something like that…
No one can take you seriously Jeff. No, that won’t be my future or Earl’s. Go live your life Jeff.
You’ve done nothing but shame. That’s all you have.
So extreme…. lol!
Anyone else note that he shames exactly like a feminist. Lol!
Which is funny because that’s exactly what I keep on saying. You cannot on one hand say that only those who are madly in love get married and then complain on the other hand that there are no incentives for men to work hard and prepare for life.
If only 20% of men are attractive enough to fulfill you requirement for marriage, 80% must do without.
This is why I promote MGTOW. You guys don’t have a solution but more shame and scorn on the men you deem unworthy.
You cannot have a society with only 20% buy in guys so either get your heads out of your arses or watch it burn. Take women’s rights away or watch it burn. I don’t care what you think or do though, your problem, not mine.
Thank you people for the helpful input regarding my daughter. Hopefully she’ll be able to figure out how to convey interest to a man who finds her worthy of his interest.
@OkRickety I’m not sure why you’re assuming my beliefs are as you describe. My church doesn’t teach that, and that’s not how things are in our marriage and our home. I’m blessed to be married to a man and pastored by men who are are godly and take their headship seriously and surrounded by women who also don’t believe anything like you’re describing.
That is the future for all society Jeff. It’s not me you should worry about. I have a pretty decent life and I do my own thing for the most part.
More and more this will become your new normal and with your scorn you will deserve it. Society deserves it. I’ll not be the one throwing my life away, but I will be the one enjoying the destruction and watching it burn.
Can you post some information on this lost land you speak of?
Tell her to go and talk to the guy she likes in a nice friendly manner. It really is kind of simple. Which is why I don’t believe you.
Has he actually changed the dogma of the church when it comes to fornication….the answer is NOOOOOOOOOO. Get back to me when the dogma states fornication isn’t a sin anymore.
Now that we have that cleared up…why is the issue of sexual morals something you dodge, Jeff?
BillyS,
“(Not that you were recommending couples wait Bee, but just noting it because so many do so intentionally.)”
Yes, you understood what I was trying to say. Thank you.
Jeff Strand: could you please clarify this bit?, I’m slightly confused here: your “fairly innocent and sexually inexperienced wife wasn’t literally a virgin” and “there weren’t really any ex-bf’s on her part”. With whom she became the not-literally-a-virgin then, when there were no bf’s, how many approximately were they, and how do you define “innocent”?
I think Jeff means she used the back door and had her tonsils removed by a phallic, shaped object.
.. or Jeff means that she only have five to ten foreign objects of unknown origin up her fronthole before he met her. It’s all so hazy, she really can’t remember so well these days, you know.
@feministhater The “lost land” I inhabit is a Mennonite church. We aren’t the plainest and unworldliest kind, and thankfully we haven’t strayed into SJW-land like some have. We’re just ordinary people who love God, love our families, and try very hard to follow God’s plan for how marriage and the home are supposed to be.
And my daughter is friendly and talkative to men who interest her, but it apparently comes across as that she’s just a nice person. Then she assumes the interest is not reciprocated.
Well that explains it….
Your daughter is an 8 out of 10, she talks to the men who interest her and shows interest in them, she would love to be a wife and mother but absolutely none of the men are interested in her at all…. she is submissive, practices her religion seriously and respects the men in her community but… crickets.
My guess is your rating of your daughter is over valued or your daughter likes the exact same few men that all the women do.
How many available men in your Church and how many are attractive enough for your daughter?
@feministhater At this time, in our particular congregation, my daughter and another woman who’s 27 are the only people who aren’t married, engaged, or almost engaged in the 20-30 age range. She also lives an hour away from home now. She’s found a church of a different denomination that she likes but there are no single men in her age range.
Around where we live there are several nondominatinonal churches that have very large young adult groups. Nothing like that exists where she lives now. But the ratio is always like 2 or 3 women per 1 man at these things.
Jean,
“Around where we live there are several nondominatinonal churches that have very large young adult groups. Nothing like that exists where she lives now. ”
Have her come home every weekend and attend on a rotating basis the several churches with young adult groups.
I wish the best for your daughter. I hope she finds a strong Christian guy soon.
Earl,
Swallow your pride and admit that what you have been doing has not been working.
Several posts back, in the comment thread, vfm7916 offered you some good, practical, useful advice. At the time you refused his help. Go back and embrace what he offered you.
No singles groups near her? That is hard to believe unless she is out in the boonies. Those groups may not be good, but they are certainly widespread.
It continues to sound like she is narrowing her scope too much and overvaluing her own signaling.
Jean:
That’s what I thought. you confirmed a few things I said.
–she’s not showing interest clearly enough.
–she’s part of a cloistered ultraconservative religious group.
–She isn’t really making herself available to men.
And I have to add another, which I suspect is the case now that more info is coming out:
–She lives in a place with a lack of suitable men. There aren’t enough men in that locale.
Jean:
And my daughter is friendly and talkative to men who interest her, but it apparently comes across as that she’s just a nice person. Then she assumes the interest is not reciprocated.
Jean, this country just went through a bruising Supreme Court nomination process in which the nominee was accused of doing horrible things to women (that he didn’t do). This country has been through a solid year of #MeToo, in which seemingly every woman on the face of the earth between ages 18 and 80 claims to have had some man somewhere do something terrible sexually to her.
Men are on the run. Men are scared. To. Death. of being falsely accused. They are scared shitless that they’ll say or do something somewhere that some woman didn’t like, and she’ll run to HR and he’ll lose his job, or run to a pastor and he’ll be held up for public ridicule and shaming, or run to the media or social media and make public accusations, or she’ll run to his employer (even if this happened away from work) and get him fired.
Men are scared shitless that something they do or say will be construed as “rapey” or “sexual harassment”. because to law abiding rules following devout Christian men, being called a sexist or a misogynist or a harasser is one of the worst, most humiliating things that can possibly happen to you. Getting dressed down by your employer or pastor IN PUBLIC is just about the worst thing that can happen to you. Losing your job because some woman you know reported you for something you might have said or done that she misconstrued is death to a career.
Today in 2018 America, the worst thing that can happen to a man is being accused of sexism or misogyny. He will NEVER work again. He will become a social pariah. He might have to fend off criminal charges or civil lawsuits.
Jean, men are told that they aren’t entitled to ANYTHING. They are accused of the worst kinds of sexism for assuming that because some woman smiled at them somewhere, she might be attracted to him. They are accused of awful things because they presumed a woman might be attracted to them just because she said something or did something nice for them.
So men have learned – just because some woman socializes a little with me doesn’t mean ANYTHING – in fact if I assume she is attracted to me and she is not, I could get myself into very, very big trouble.
So, you see, your daughter is going to have to do a hell of a lot more than “just be nice” to men she’s interested in for a relationship.
And are you going to tell that to Jean or not?
“Friendly and talkative” ain’t gonna cut it, not anymore. If women want good men for relationships and marriage, those women are going to have to make their IOIs so clear a monkey could see them. Those women are going to have to pound those men over the head with IOIs. Those women are going to have to flash green lights so big they could function as a Batsignal. Those women are going to have to make it crystal clear they are not going to misconstrue anything, they are not going to #MeToo the guy, and they are not going to report him to police or their employers.
They just are. That’s the world we live in now.
Jean and Earl,
If it is any consolation to you both, it is EXACTLY the people like you Earl and your daughter, Jean that I have the most sympathy for, in this messed up SMV.
Take Earl, a circa 30 year old male – no wife yet, and yet, as he himself says, he is physically fine, above-average height, works, and has a decent income, he approaches women he likes, he is Christian (so should be no problem for Christian women, right?), he is a virgin (? correct me if wrong, Earl) or at least incredibly chaste for a young, healthy man, he is ‘alpha’ enough, and still, NOTHING.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with Earl.
Yes, Jeff, you DO have a point, it is always good to look at oneself when things are going repeatedly wrong. But I don’t get the impression that Earl lacks this level of introspection.
If I had a younger sister, I would get her straight to Earl’s door.
But the reality is, even a man like Earl has so far not been lucky enough to find what he wants.
But he WILL. He will get there. For Our Lord is merciful.
I for one also believe Jean’s daughter is also an excellent candidate for a wife, i.e. I believe Jean’s description of her. A 22 year old virginal woman, who is not fat and hideous-looking, OK a bit shy, but so what? It is GOOD for a woman to be slightly shy. It was once perfectly OK for a woman to be exactly like this. It still is.
So she went to college and can earn her own living for now. Is this a bad thing? Hmmm.
The reality is, that many young men WANT a woman who can at least pull her weight when things get tough financially. But we hear that Jean’s daughter would give up working in a heartbeat if her husband wants her to. This is all that is needed, in my humble opinion. There may well be a time when her husband may WANT her to contribute financially. Having an education helps, in this regard. The education in of itself is not the bad thing here.
We should not confuse the education with what comes with the education. Yes, many women go to college and lose their virginity there. This girl didn’t. I didn’t. A man should separate the two issues. An educated girl does not mean she is a slut. Many nuns have degrees.
Telling her that her acne reduces her desirability, (even Earl, who seems like a suitable match for her says for him it is not an issue) she is not forward enough with men, she is not acting ‘sexily’ enough, etc. is quite disheartening. (I know, because I received the same kind of advice when I too, well past the 20s, was still single, so I sympathise greatly. I knew instinctively I needed not change my whole personality just to get married. The things which needed correcting, I corrected. But not intrinsic personality traits like ‘shyness’, ‘quietness’. And guess what, my husband likes my quiet voice. He cannot stand women with loud Voices).
Just a small example to illustrate my point.
I think Oscar has the best attitude. Our current SMV is simply messed up and 2 people like Earl and Jean’s daughter are not coming together. Why is this, he ponders?
This should be our collective thought!
In my entourage, I look for people like Earl and Jean’s daughter and try to help them to ‘see’ each other. My success rate is not very high, admittedly, otherwise I would quit my day job and do it full-time 🙂 but yes, sometimes, we really need to accept that there are people who really are doing things right, (as much as is humanly possible) but are still not yet *there* where they want to be.
‘Victim-blaming’ them is not terribly helpful, even when it is well-intended, (as I assume everyone here is).
It just brings down the moral of the person who is still going through this suffering and who knows that he/she is already making more sacrifices than most, and still not getting any reward for their efforts…It’s a painful realisation that few can genuinely relate to.
But I say to these two – it is only a question of TIME. Hang in there. And yes, you are doing things right. There may be one or two things to change, by all means identify them and change them, but hold your head high that you are following the Lord’s commands and ….that is ALL he asks of you.
Earl, you want a virgin? Go ahead and wait for one. You will be happier with her than a non-virgin, you know this in your gut.
Why always wonder if you are going to ‘catch’ something with someone your very soul tells you is not your true choice as comapnion through this life?
Bad for you, bad for her.
Jean’s daughter, you want a man who you feel attraction to? Wait for him. Marriage is a FOREVER thing. When you are in your 50s and mad at him, can you look at him and say in your indignation, ‘at least he is a handsome rogue/bastard!’ (insert your own term of endearment here) and forgive him for whatever he has done to make you seethe? You know how many women CANNOT do this, because deep down they went into marriage with a man they did not and cannot EVER truly/genuinely love?
Bad for you, bad for him.
Remember, that somewhere in a corner of this Earth, a woman named Spacetraveller is intensely praying for you. That you find exactly what you seek. Because she closely identifies with your plight. And she knows that you are exactly at the stage of life where you really really need prayer. Because your future marriage partner is an important factor in how you life turns out.
Deti and Jeff,
You know I respect you both greatly.
Deti I have ‘known’ since the early days of the Manosphere. You and many others were actually very encouraging towards me in the time before I married. I had the opposite from ‘the real world’. I treasured the fatherly and big brotherly and also little brotherly advice I got that didn’t make me feel more of a freak for following the straight and narrow path. OK, I wasn’t coming here looking for advice to FIND someone, granted But it was nice to come here to a ‘haven’ of common sense/good morality support.
I wish Earl and Jean’s daughter would get the same.
Jeff, I instinctly believe you make many valid points and your recent 10% assertion I believe to be roughly correct (the 50% statistic is an accumulation of all-comers and therefore artificially raises the divorce-risk for everyone – the people in your specific group do have a much lower risk of divorce based on their demographics alone, but other things count as well, as Earl mentions).
Whether it is actually 10% or higher is another question…yes, and people who question this statistic I suspect are surprised to hear from you that it can be so low…
Anyway…
I hope you understand where I am coming from,
It is not to contradict/antagonise or confront you. I am merely expressing the unpleasant experience from the point of view of the ‘recipient’ of your comments, when they are already down, to constantly hear from others: “it’s you, it must be your fault… there are multiple things to change about yourself.”
For most other people except Earl and Jean’s daughter, it may be so.
But NOT these two. These are the ideal ‘creme de la creme’ of the Christian SMP and yet, they are both still single, not their choice.
Rotten luck at present, and nothing much more than this…
While they wait to ‘win’…please let’s be *gentler* with them.
Encourage them, not tear them down further than the world already does to them.
And they won’t and that’s why it’s best to ghost and MGTOW. Let Jeff, Jonathan Castle, Bee, Jean and her daughter and the rest of the tradcon shit brigade handle it.
Off you go chaps. Stop shit posting here and save the world.
I’ll add Space Traveller to that list. Fix the world chumps. You know it all peeps!
<blockquote.Encourage them, not tear them down further than the world already does to them.
No.
Telling him that his height reduces his desirability, that he’s not wealthy enough, not big enough, not ripped enough, not alpha enough., etc… blah blah blah, is quite disheartening. Tehee!
Jonathan Castle: Honestly though, in our 80-20 world many, many good, solid men are just going to go without women and children. Not a damn thing any of us can do about it.
Nova: I agree — this is quite true. Of course many of them will eventually marry *someone* — likely it either won’t last or won’t be happy if it does, however. Many of these would have been better off not marrying in the 80/20 world we live in. Marriage is for the best of the best really — not for everyone else.
Count me in. Agreed. There are problems with this individually for individual men. For Christian men, remaining unmarried means lifelong celibacy, if those men are to remain obedient. But most of them will not. They will either have extramarital sex, or they will marry unsuitable women. Being Christian men, they will eventually marry so they can remain obedient, but they will not get what they want from their marriages. Most of them won’t be attractive enough, most of them will be married to women they shouldn’t have married because those women settled pretty deeply for them. And there will be quite a bit of settling on the men’s parts, too.
Most of the marriages that do stay together will be “make the best of it” marriages; and in today’s day and age, “make the best of it” isn’t good enough, not even for Christian women. It IS good enough for men; but Christian women won’t accept it. Christian women have been making very, very clear that “Make the best of it” in marriage is not acceptable.
So, you see, your daughter is going to have to do a hell of a lot more than “just be nice” to men she’s interested in for a relationship.
We’ve passed a tipping point in this country where ALL women are going to suffer due to the excessive behavior of a loud, feral few. It’s unfortunate, but it HAS to happen if there is to be any hope whatsoever of putting an end to the current madness. As is happening with every other aspect of life in our polarized society that is headed for all-out civil war, there will be no fence-sitting or “staying out of it and minding my own business.” In this case, “good women” are going to have to ACTIVELY AND AGGRESSIVELY fight back against everything feminism stands for and is doing to ruin civilized society if they want to avoid not only being lonely cat ladies for the rest of their lives, but also avoid having men actually seeing them as the enemy and treating them accordingly.
This the challenge women like Jean’s daughter face and will have to overcome if they want any shot at all at a decent married life to a “good Christian husband.” The days of “good women” expecting “good men” to just drop into their laps on a whim with no effort expended whatsoever on their part to make the relationship happen never really existed in the first place, but are not even a viable pipe dream now. It’s get-up-off-your-entitled-princess-ass-and-go-get-yourself-a-man, or be a cat lady defending yourself against men who would probably just as soon see you dead as look at you.
It’s ugly out there for everyone, and will only become more so. Ladies who want a better life for themselves are going to have to show some serious initiative to make it less so. Given current trends, I’m not optimistic that many will even try, let’s alone succeed. The “entitlement mentality” is too derply hardwired. The few grains of wheat are about to be separated from the tons of chaff.
Telling her that her acne reduces her desirability, (even Earl, who seems like a suitable match for her says for him it is not an issue) she is not forward enough with men, she is not acting ‘sexily’ enough, etc. is quite disheartening.
I am sure it is. The fact remains that Jean’s daughter isn’t getting what she (says she) wants. The fact remains that what she’s doing isn’t working. She will have to try something else. If she follows your advice and waits, she’s probably looking at another 5 to 15 years of singleness. She will have to be more forward. She will have to be more aggressive in showing indicators of interest. She will have to broaden out her search beyond her immediate geographic location. She will have to be willing to quit her job and move for a man. She just will.
There’s no other way – particularly if she’s setting her sights on Christian men, who have their own attractiveness and attraction problems. Today’s Christian men are mostly effeminate and unassertive. They won’t make the first move, because everyone around them is telling them their natural masculinity is toxic, evil, rapey, violent and criminal.
They won’t make the first move because their own pastors and male role models are effeminate and unassertive, and ruled and henpecked by their harridan wives.
They won’t make the first move because people like Dennis Rainey, Dr. James Dobson, and Bob Lepine tell these men that whatever women want is whatever they should have, and it’s their job to meekly sit by while their women bark orders at them.
They won’t make the first move because people like Mark Driscoll scream and shout at them “HOW DARE YOU!” when they meekly voice expectations of women, relationships and marriages.
They won’t make the first move because literally every Christian pastor in North America preaches Fathers’ Day sermons and messages berating men and fathers, they’re not doing enough, they’re not nice enough, they’re crappy men, crappy fathers, and ineffective husbands.
So, in this instance, if women want something from men, women are going to have to make it clear they are sexually interested in them, and they are going to have to pick up the slack.
Spacetraveller, thanks for your kind words and thoughts. I think my daughter is secure in knowing that she’s doing right as far as God is concerned, so she has that. My husband thinks it’s just a timing issue, but I think for me, my fear is getting in the way of my faith and saying “what if…she’s single forever…she never gets to experience being a wife and mother…she only has family to rely on and isn’t important to anyone else?” We have a few unfortunate examples of old maids in our extended family, which only add to the bleakness of the “what if” picture. Thanks for your prayers.
Don’t worry Deti. God will personally speak to each and every Christian women and tell her which man is to be her husband. She might have to wait till her death but that’s nothing compared to being with a man God didn’t make for her.
Jean’s daughter need only wait and God will sort the men out and bring her the husband of her dreams. Just wait, don’t do a thing. All in good time.. Jean, your daughter has nothing to worry about at all.
Woweee, wasn’t that a close call? Okay chaps, it’s all good now, crisis averted, you can all go home now!
Jean:
I don’t mean to harp on you. But I don’t think you understand just how bad this is. I don’t think you understand what the men your daughter says she’s interested in are like.
They’re devout, law abiding, and rules following. They’re hard workers. They’re obedient, or at least they try to be. They’re following their pastors and older men in their churches as role models. They’re seeing henpecked men who talk about their wives as “their better half” and “the boss” and “she who will not be denied” and “well, gotta check with the boss before i say i can go there/do that”.
They’re listening to the current Christian zeitgeist which is “woman good, man bad”. They will do what the men around them and their pastors tell them to do regarding women. And what they’re probably hearing is
“you’re inherently bad and sinful because you are a man. Your masculinity is too aggressive and leads you into sin. Your masculinity is toxic. Your interest in women leads you to sin. You need to stop looking at women. You need to do the “eye bounce” thing when you find yourself looking at a woman for too long because that’s lust and that’s adultery and you’ll go to hell if you don’t repent. If you even think about how attractive a woman is to you, you’ve lusted in your heart.
All of you men are way too obsessed with women’s physical attractiveness. If you are focused on a woman’s physical attractiveness, you’re probably not really a Christian and you need to check your heart. If you will not consider an overweight woman or an obese woman or an older woman or a formerly promiscuous woman, then you are a bad man, a bad Christian, and you’re in sin and going to hell. It is your Christian duty to marry a damaged woman.
So, if your daughter really, truly is interested in these types of men, then she’s going to have to be much, much more assertive and aggressive in getting one of these guys. She just will. Them’s the facts.
So, deti, the old “men don’t like girls who are forward” advice no longer applies? I understand what you mean about today’s climate where men are afraid of being labeled and falsely accused—I have a son who’s managed to find a good wife while remaining unscathed by #metoo, thank God.
I will admit that there’s some confusion created in my old-fashioned mind here by what you suggest. Being bold and forward and assertive and calling the shots with men to start a relationship seem to be similar to the qualities men dislike in the feminists. My daughter has no intention of taking control of a marriage and telling her husband what to do. I guess I have trouble reconciling that with telling her to go out and find the man she wants and making her intentions clear. I’m picturing Big Ethyl from the Archie comics here. I trust you’re giving me advice in good faith, but I’m having trouble understanding how a woman can be assertive in dating without raising fears that she’ll be a harpy as a wife.
Don’t be snarky.
Being more forward just means making her intentions known to him in a more overt manner. It doesn’t mean being overtly sexy or bossy or controlling.
Do you acknowledge the damage done by the #metoo movement?
Apparently, we need to go back to arranged marriages, because young people can’t seem to stop looking right past each other.
It’s quite simply this Jean. Your daughter is going to have to do the leg work to find a husband. This does not mean she has act like a man, it means she has to plan ahead. Find places with a higher proportion of the men she is interested in and go there. That the men around her know she wants to get married and start a family soon. That she isn’t a slut. Being ‘aggressive’ in this sense isn’t a physical, dominating or controlling presence but a more active sense of searching for her future husband.
If the men around her know she is looking, a man will more easily pick up on her cues when she constantly speaks to him and makes her intention known to him. Stop the games and get busy.
Thanks, femimisthater. That makes sense.
@ Jean
One way to circumvent that conundrum would be for your daughter to tell the older, married ladies of the church that she wants to marry a Godly man, and ask them to help her meet some.
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/what-a-setup-looks-like/
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/02/22/she-isnt-getting-enough-dates/
the old “men don’t like girls who are forward” advice no longer applies?
Not for these men who your daughter says she’s interested in, it doesn’t apply. These men would be THRILLED to have a woman like your daughter interested in them – if your daughter truly is what you claim she is. And they need assurances that it’s genuine, it’s not utilitarian, and they’re not going to get #MeToo’d.
Being bold and forward and assertive and calling the shots with men to start a relationship seem to be similar to the qualities men dislike in the feminists.
That’s not what I’m talking about.
I’m having trouble understanding how a woman can be assertive in dating without raising fears that she’ll be a harpy as a wife.
Be flirty. Be feminine. Be girly. Have your hair done, good makeup on, in feminine clothes that accentuate her positives and downplay her negatives. When he’s around, go up to him and single him out for conversation. Seek him out. Call him. Contact him. Text him and invite him out to get lunch. This is conduct that says “I am interested in you, i like you, and not just as a “friend”. I think you’re attractive. I enjoy you, and i enjoy being around you.”
Look down demurely. Square up your body to him. Don’t stand at angles to him. We know wyou women do this – it’s because youre guarding yourselves and you don’t want us looking at your bodies.
Don’t stand with arms folded. Don’t do that unconscious thing where women pull open sweaters or shirts over their t-shirts. We know why you women do those things – you’re covering your breasts and guarding yourselves because you don’t want us looking at your breasts and you don’t want us thinking of you sexually. Don’t do that.
Don’t sit with your legs crossed. That’s a clear sign of being closed off and self-protection. Sit demurely with legs together, but not crossed.
Don’t look him in the eye all the time with a straight face. That’s what men do with each other. That’s masculine. When you look him squarely in the eye all the time without smiling or looking inviting, you’re acting like a man. When my wife does this with me, she’s spoiling for a fight or she’s confronting me. Don’t come at men like that. When a woman comes at me with direct eye contact and a straight face, I view that as a threat. I am revving up to confront and fight.
If you are interested in a man for a relationship, you WANT him thinking of you sexually. You should want to be sexually appealing to him. You should invite him to think of you “that way”. Your conduct should be saying “i want you to be sexually attracted to me, and i am very open to you being sexually attracted to me”.
Too many of you women send out clear, clear signals of disinterest all over the place to everybody and then wonder why no men approach you. When you walk around looking men squarely in the eye and straight faced and “all business” attitude like you’ve got a chip on your shoulder the size of Texas; when you stand arms crossed and constantly pulling your sweaters across your chests, when you get standoffish, when you won’t square yourselves up to men and invite him to check you out, you are CLEARLY saying to men “stay away from me, i am not interested in you, do not approach me”.
Jean,
I agree that an overly obvious woman can be a turn-off to a good, quiet, Christian (even tough, as was pointed out above, young men are now normalized to level-10 empowerment).
So what would you think about practicing with your daughter to show IOI but not come off as pushy? I bet with you and a camera, you can smooth out some obvious flaws and make it more comfortable for her to do.
And, of course, with my advice, I acknowledge my need to pray for you.
@spacetraveller: “For most other people except Earl and Jean’s daughter, it may be so.
But NOT these two. These are the ideal ‘creme de la creme’ of the Christian SMP and yet, they are both still single, not their choice.Rotten luck at present, and nothing much more than this…”
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
As far as Jean’s daughter I haven’t said anything negative about her. Just asked (a couple times) if she is comfortable with being flirty and fun and sexy with a man, and knows how to push his buttons. So far, Jean has not responded to this question. The reason I asked is to try to offer some helpful advice. Such women, in my experience, almost always get their man. And I don’t believe it’s incompatible with being a good Christian girl to be fun, sexy, and flirty, and to make her bf feel like a man. That doesn’t have to involve fornication. But for many girls, esp the ones who are so indoctrinated with “no sex till marriage”, they have no clue how to be feminine and flirty with a guy. To their great detriment.
As far as Earl, we banter back and forth. He can take it. After all, when I first started posting about my situation (married happily to a NAWALT) in order to encourage the younger guys not to give up hope, what was Earl’s reaction? Not to say “congratulations, I’m happy for you.” No, it was to immediately get extremely bitter and jealous, accusing me of bragging (for just stating the facts of my life and marriage!), etc. That’s not an attractive characteristic in a man. It’s not something a woman would be drawn to, as it reeks of inadequacy, desperation, and immaturity. So I am offering him the helpful advice to look in the mirror and see what he might want to change. If nothing, fine. He can keep doing what he’s been doing until now, with the same expectant results. Btw, if he is indeed already entering his 30’s, and he’s demanding a virgin bride, the numbers alone say it won’t happen and he should prepare for lifetime bachelorhood…for better or worse.
Cheers
Feminist Hater,
LMAO at you trying to get a rise out of me by insulting my wife! So mature. Should I start insulting your mother now?
You don’t see the irony of trying to insult a guy with a faithful, loving, surrendered, (and still quite hot!) wife, who has given me a couple beautiful daughters, submits to me in all things, and fills my home with peace and love. While your situation is…a sex doll, porn, and a bottle of hand lotion! Seems like the last time you saw any real pussy was when your momma had you! LOL, you couldn’t make this up!
Yeah, your insults cut me to the quick, lol. I’m sooo jealous of you and your life! Just lol.
You didn’t answer the question Jeff?! How come she was not a virgin upon marriage but never had a boyfriend?
You’re the only one here that thinks people are jealous of you. I’m not comparing myself to you. I don’t care about your life. You just have the inability to get that we don’t what to hear your brag fest sessions over and over again. It’s tiresome Jeff.
You’re so alpha you need to flap your gums on a forum where you’re not wanted or needed in some attempt to gain self-aggrandizement.
I’m glad you thought my innuendoes about your wife were funny. It’s all just in fun.
You’re wife’s a whore Jeff! Haha! lol!
@FH: “You didn’t answer the question Jeff?! How come she was not a virgin upon marriage but never had a boyfriend?”
Man, you are dumb.
She never had a serious, long-term boyfriend that was leading to an engagement, dummy. And she was a virgin all through high school and into her early 20’s – how many girls can say that today? So anyway, once in her 20’s, she began dating. She lost her virginity to a guy she was dating. Therefore, when I met her a couple years later in her mid 20’s, she was no longer a virgin. But also, there were no serious ex-bf’s that I had to hear about and deal with. Which was fine with me.
So yeah, that’s a “whore”. Lol, you’re such a dumbschit. Go back to your porn and your real doll. Just lol. Maybe tell us about the beautiful, perfect, virginal, storybook princess you’re gonna marry one day. If you ever get up the nerve to talk to a real live woman.
Grow up.
She just had short-term flings. Got it! Don’t get so uptight man. Relax! It’s all fun and games. Take a chill pill.
She had her fun back in her prime. Now she’s got it out her system. It’s all good!
LOL!
Short-term flings, probably lasting about 3 months each. From 20 to 25…. That’s enough time for 20 flings… give or take you understand, not Rocket Science, well maybe from her standpoint it was…. throw in a few forgettable one nighters…and she’s pushing 25-30. Woweee Jeff, you lucky bugger! Look at her go!
Probably looks like a Mexican taco now.
FH,
Ahhh, it’s really cute how you think you can bait me.
I repeat – you are a loser who can’t get a real, live woman. So you have your sex doll, porn, and hand lotion. And you think you can bait someone?
Thanks for the laughs.
It’s a pleasure Jeff! I’ll be here all week, your wife being my number one fan!
Would a NAWALT spread for a man with whom it was nothing serious? not mentioning serious enough to consider engagement/marriage?
(rhetoric), Sorry, but..
On the other hand, generally speaking, this kind of scenario really appears better for the last of the next guys aka husband, when there was no really serious bond developed and it happened in the woman’s 20ies, when she already matured enough to not absorb too much of the previous guy’s influence. Compared to eg a hypothetical serious boyfriend of say 5 years starting from her age say 16, about to get engaged, but somehow it ‘didn’t work out’, which on surface looks sort of more ‘respectable’ (due to the long-term nature of it, status of serious bf etc), but the imprint or impression of that guy on her teen mind (and body), when it would be happening during her formative malleable years, over prolonged period of time, could be then pretty much permanent and therefore much bigger challenge for any subsequent man (regardless how ‘alpha’) to ‘outcompete’ in her mind, to avoid the sad outcome of marrying who’d be in principle, at least partially, ‘other man’s woman’.
FH: “It’s a pleasure Jeff! I’ll be here all week, your wife being my number one fan!”
Great. I just rolled off your skank of a mother, she said to say hi. But, whew! She smells bad! (She also says she still has no idea who your father is…but it’s somebody from your local college rugby team, since they all took a turn on her)
And….Dalrock’s comment thread has now reached the level that FH has been trying to drive it to all along….
Dude, the image man! Lol! You can insult a man about anything but never his mother. That’s too low, even for you Jeff! Shame on you! Haha!
I see why I was writing my question, Deti was spelling out the tips in detail. Now you have items to practice with your daughter. Good advice Deti.
“While,” not “why.”
Yes, yes they do. I have been told in no uncertain terms, by a NAWALT hunter no less, that they have a tendency to drop their panties at the first sign of the alpha of the tribe. As alphaness can wane, be faked or merely a the allure of the bad wolf, NAWALTs have been known to spread for many a man over the years in search of her mate.
Ofelas,
You summed up quite well, sir (assuming you’re a sir, lol)
I actually prefer that she lost it to a guy she was dating, rather than to a very long-term, serious, leading-to-marriage-but-it-didn’t-work-out boyfriend. Not that I’m so insecure like some folks (cough, cough, FH, cough) that I couldn’t handle her having had a serious bf.
But I must admit, it was cool not having to deal with baggage from her being so seriously bonded to a guy she thought was gonna be her husband. Instead, it’s like I was her first serious bf. So everything we did together was new and fresh. She wasn’t constantly comparing our dates and experiences with her prior relationship, etc. There’s no pictures or old love letters from an ex-bf to deal with. (There ARE pics and old love letters from my ex-gf’s laying around, but she’s cool with that. She knew I was something of a lady’s man and a long way from a virgin when we started dating, and it’s never bothered her).
(As an aside, I was in a serious relationship (before I met my wife) with a hot little blonde who had been engaged to her high school sweetheart, then had serious bf’s after him. I heard about them all the time, as you would expect. Got old. So it was a real treat to have such a clean slate for my wife’s romantic history. And being a virgin till her early 20’s tells you how much stock to put in poor, bitter, FH’s cries of “whore!” Then again, I’m sure his sex doll was a virgin when he purchased her, lol)
Anyway, that was all a very long time ago. After almost 2 decades together, you don’t even think of things like that anymore. We just enjoy each other, live in “our little bubble”, raise our family, and laugh at the feminist crazy broads…and at the dummy men who wife them up, lol.
Cheers.
Jean,
I made the assumptions because there are many churchians who claim that their churches have many girls who would make great wives but they have few, if any, guys who would make great husbands for them. They also espouse the other beliefs I stated.
In my own experience over decades, it is extremely unusual for a church to have even two or three young girls who might make great wives. In today’s environment, I suspect, based on studies I have seen, that most of them are not actually “quality” girls although they may look and act the part on Sunday.
Assuming your environment is indeed out of today’s norm (and I am pleased to hear of your situation), I am curious as to what church group you describe. There are several here who would likely be interested, whether for themselves or for their children or friends.
Wow! Jeff! So your wife gave it to a guy on a date? She was quite easy then.
A meal, a movie and off to the road show we go!
Jean, I see now that you are Mennonite. I hadn’t read all the comments.
FH,
I said, to a guy she was datIng…note the “ing” on the end. Guess your mom was too busy turning tricks to see to it that you learned how to ready, huh?
And answer the question – was your love doll a virgin when you purchased her? Enquiring minds want to know!
“Read”, not “ready”.
Obviously
Well I say! She was good enough to wait till the third date. Well! Jolly good show sir! Well done!
OKR: Jean, I see now that you are Mennonite. I hadn’t read all the comments.”
I didn’t know they either. Isn’t that like Amish? If so, then I wouldn’t have the first idea on what advice to give, and wouldn’t want to try. So disregard anything I said.
FH,
Still dodging the question? Tell us about your “girlfriend”, i.e. Love Doll. How much did you pay for her? How is she holding up to repeated use? Is she rubber or silicon? These are important questions!
And yet you’re not answering them. Oh well, I guess you’re still pretty shaken up from when you ventured out of mom’s basement to a Starbucks yesterday, and an ACTUAL GIRL said something to you! Soooo out of your comfort zone! But give it a few days back to your normal routine of porn and World of Warcraft, you’ll be right back to your old self.
A girl said something to me yesterday!? Wow! Jeff, thank you for letting me know!
Let it not be unsaid that Jeff’s wife puts out for just anyone. Upper class here all the way.
Ha, Jeff, that’s ok. We aren’t quite as unworldly as Amish. Mennonite churches run the gamut from ones that are almost Amish to some that are so liberal they seem more like Unitarians to me. Our type dresses modestly but in “normal” clothes and hairstyles, doesn’t discount higher education for kids who have a reason to go, and try to keep from becoming too worldly while we try to apply the Scriptures to daily life.
So I took your suggestions for my daughter and filtered them as I do when someone doesn’t know what my deal is, so to speak. So, within the boundaries of what we think is appropriate, my daughter does dress well for her figure and does her hair and makeup to enhance her features. She is smiley and cute when she’s not wearing her “public transportation face.”
In all honesty, she doesn’t expect to marry another Mennonite, because it’s such a relatively small group. There are also a lot of farm families in it. My daughter would be a very capable farm wife if it weren’t for allergies that can cause severe asthma and hives, so that’s not an option for her.
But I do thank you and everyone who’s been helpful to share insights and suggestions. I will definitely talk to her about being more obvious about her interest when she meets someone who might be a good fit for her.
On a more serious note. I wonder if people here understand the danger of having people like FH (who love the attention) become the face of the red pill movement.
He’s beyond repellent to any woman, obviously. And any man who reads these comment threads, and sees FH’s constant posts…even if such a guy has seen a friend divorce raped or something and so is hungering for some red pill wisdom…is gonna merely conclude: “A-ha. Like I was told…the “red pill movement” is just a bunch of angry, whiny losers who can’t get laid. So, in their bitterness, they become woman haters. No thanks. I’m out.”
And you can’t blame them. Guys like FH multiply and go unchecked = the downfall of the red pill movement, mark my words. The only guys you’ll reach are the total Omega losers like FH, who never had a chance to score a girlfriend in the first place. All the normal “beta” guys will end up fleeing, to escape the bitterness, hate, and nasty bullschit that FH and his ilk are peddling (when they’re not otherwise engaged with porn, jerking off, World of Warcraft, the latest superhero movie, and anime.
You know I’m right,
I’m not the face of anything Jeff. I don’t even pretend to be. You’re just a brag head who likes to rub peoples’ noses in it. MGTOW just is. You cannot fight it.
I’m just one man, doing my own thing and that’s all I care about. You decided to try and shame me, you likened me to a criminal. It’s all fun until someone fights back.
We’re the betas going to flee to Jeff? You don’t get it. Shaming no longer works. There’s nothing left to fight for in this society of yours.
Your feminist shaming reeks. You’re nothing.
Go away.
FH,
You live in an alternate universe. You can’t see how repellent you are to the average guy. A life of porn, video games, sex dolls, extra aloe vera hand lotion, Marvel comics and movies, etc…are you kidding me? That’s the lowest of the low, in the eyes of any normal man.
And you want to sit here and throw rocks at the men who have actual girlfriends, wives, families, homes, success, etc? I mean, it’s an absolute joke.
Oops, time for your afternoon jerk off session. Better get to it, so there’s time to watch some anime before bed.
Just lol.
You sure know a lot about this stuff Jeff.
There’s extra aloe vera hand lotion?! Lol! For when the normal amounts of aloe vera just won’t do! I guess you have to spice it up anyway you can.
World of Woecraft is so 2008. You need to up your shaming. Next tier gear level Jeff!
Jeff and Deti,
Thank you for your comments. As I said, I already believe you were well-intentioned in your comments to Earl and Jean. And your later comments only serve to convince me even more!
Thanks for taking the time to elaborate…
I feel really bad not only for Earl and Jean’s daughter but others in the same boat as well who are obviously doing their best and still getting knocked back by life. Am I being too sensitive?
Feeriker’s comment also paints a scary future for the millenials…scary but true, I suspect.
Jean,
No worries. I pray for your daughter and ALSO for her future husband, whoever he may be.
In unrelated news, I pray for Earl too (wink).
Oscar,
Yes, maybe we as humans should stop trying to re-invent the wheel every generation, lol. Maybe the answer is staring us in the face. Arranged marriages for the win!
Space
I wouldn’t say you’re being too sensitive. The fact of the matter is that there will be increasing numbers of men who will be just shut out of the sex, relationships and family game. Just shut out. They’ll just get absolutely nothing.
There have always been a small number of men who were “confirmed bachelors” for one reason or another. The hopelessly unattractive, the weird/eccentric, the mentally ill, the mentally retarded, the very socially awkward, the socially damaged.
Those numbers are increasing. A lot of men who would have married had they been born 40 years before their actual births will not marry. The mildly unattractive, the Aspie, the plain, the ordinary, the man of little financial means. All these men would have married. All these men would have found SOMEONE willing to marry them. Now and in coming years, they won’t. Or at least they will not until they are well into their mid to late 30s at the earliest.
And most of those marriages will not last or they will be unhappy marriages in which both parties will not get something they want. She: Marriage to a relatively high status guy with something going for him. He: Sex, because she’ll withhold it, resist it, and keep him on an IV drip supply. They will both have to settle very deeply to accept each other. She will have to lower her standards dramatically and that will not bode well for a marriage. He will have to just put up with not getting much sex, even though he’s legally responsible for her.
They will be marriages of convenience and status. She will have married him because, to her, it’s better to have a crappy substandard marriage than no marriage at all. He will have married her because its the only way he can get any sexual attention at all, and crappy substandard starfish sex is better than no sex at all.
That’s not much of a basis for a marriage. But it’s the foundation more and more “marriages” will be founded on.
Space:
As bad as things are now, it will get exponentially worse in the next 25 to 50 years. Orders of magnitude worse. It’s going to get really, really bad for most men and women.
Nah, life isn’t meant to be fair. God has blessed me in other ways.
FH,
Multiple dates didn’t make him her boyfriend? What were those dates then? How many dates makes someone a boyfriend? How quick did she put out.
But then Jeff leaks that he was annoyed that she had been headed toward marriage with someone else. Guess that guy didn’t deserve the hot alpha sex Jeff got before marriage.
One standard for Jeff, a different one for other guys.
@BillyS: “But then Jeff leaks that he was annoyed that she had been headed toward marriage with someone else. Guess that guy didn’t deserve the hot alpha sex Jeff got before marriage.”
Uh, no. Go back and re-read my post.
Jean,
Do let her know that showing interest in men she is interested in would not be overbearing, at least not in any way I can think.
I have noted I am not in her target area at all, but even I would enjoy having someone listen to me talk about my own interests. I work on limiting that since most don’t want to hear, but she could open up connections if she did that with those she had an interest in. It doesn’t have to be too extreme of course, but learning about people could be good even if she is not that interested in a specific person past that level.
I just don’t get the whole obsessing over a virgin thing. Sure, no one wants to wife up the town mattress, and such a girl isn’t wife material anyway. But back in my dating days, as long as the girl wasn’t overly promiscuous, it never bothered me that a particular gal I was seeing wasn’t a virgin. Maybe that’s because I have a big dick, so I never worried about comparisons to former bf’s, lol. Obviously, that’s not the case for guys like FH…just sayin’.
And I dated plenty of girls back in my prime. There’s only one I know for sure was a virgin. And that’s partly because she was only 19 (I was 30 at the time we dated). We went on a few dates, but I found her to be a profound bore. She didn’t even know how to kiss – like the old saying goes, it was like kissing your sister. Plus, we were at very different stages of life, given the big age difference. I was happy to let that one go.
YMMV. For guys like Earl, I know the virgin thing is huge. I hope he finds one, truly. I just think that, based on the numbers alone, it’s going to be very difficult…esp if you as the guy are old enough that most girls you’re dating are mid 20’s and older. If you found one at that age, them being so rare, you’d almost have to be willing to wife her up based on that alone….and forget the other items on your “wife list.”
Just my 2 cents. What’s right for me maybe is way wrong for someone else.
Neither is bragging…especially about your fornication exploits.
I’ve blacklisted Jeff Strand.
Sorry you couldn’t plunder her…hopefully she saved herself for her husband.
Seriously you don’t get the virgin thing….FORNICATION IS A SIN. Men and women are not supposed to be having sex outside of marriage…there’s plenty of times mentioned about that in the Bible. And let’s not forget the bonding a woman has to a man even if they were ‘just dating’.
Are YOU even sure you’re Catholic?
Thanks, BillyS. I’ve actually been talking with my daughter about applying a lot of the suggestions here to her latest man of interest. She hasn’t seen him in a while, and they communicate on social media (ugh) as he’s trying to study for a very important licensing exam in the coming weeks. So we have decided she’s going to invite him to something, and we are working on “getting to know you” questions so she can learn more about him and keep him talking (he’s on the quiet side).
I certainly think a long span of dating, ‘hooking up’, and these on again off again relationships certainly don’t bode well if you are trying to get married.
I know it’s not the first time that has happened to him. On a blog, that is.
OKRickety,
Was it the Hitler bromance or the never ending AMOGing that did him in?
Jean
Thanks, BillyS. I’ve actually been talking with my daughter about applying a lot of the suggestions here to her latest man of interest. She hasn’t seen him in a while, and they communicate on social media (ugh) as he’s trying to study for a very important licensing exam in the coming weeks.
Jean, adding to what Deti, Billy and others have said:
I’m sure that you and she know he doesn’t need too many disturbances while prepping for such an exam. Don’t joggle his elbow. But perhaps a tiny treat such as a small baked good or cookies “to help you study” would be welcome and also communicative. Nothing fancy, this is a case where it literally is “the thought that counts”.
So we have decided she’s going to invite him to something, and we are working on “getting to know you” questions so she can learn more about him and keep him talking (he’s on the quiet side).
If possible it might be a good idea to make such a social event not just core family but a larger social circle gathering, if nothing else he would be less likely to feel like he’s under a microscope. If there are other people around it’s less obvious what you parents are attempting to do.
Open ended questions work better than closed ones because the latter are “yes” or “no” endings. Here’s where Dale Carnegie’s “How To Win Friends and Influence People” would be helpful to read through. I’m not kidding, it’s a helpful book for those who can’t quite do “small talk”.
@Dalrock
Your patience is remarkable and admirable.
Hitler bromance?
Perhaps his whole hardcore trad Catholic take was just another troll job.
In any case I think many here saw the fraudulence.
Second Dalrock’s patience with Jeff. His overall impact lowered the good of this blog. He was showing restraint from his Hitler love for several months, which I was glad for, but even his on-topic comments weren’t edifying due to his lack of ability to engage other commenters except for combative sequential monologues.
I was holding back from asking him to be blacklisted but I am looking forward to one less distraction here. One reason I held back was that he was providing a good example of how not to talk with others, but similar to watching Jerry Springer, it was rewarding in the long run.
Meant to write “not rewarding.”
FH his garbage is just the same old scratchy record I’ve heard for decades but just put a slightly different way:
“You can’t get laid! You’re gay! You live in mommy’s basement!”
He’s a teenager in an adult body. As is most “men” these days. All they can see is pussy.
The real problem is women not being put in their place in both the legal and culture sense because so many soy boys and fake alphas keep placing pussy on a pedestal and won’t accept what’s going on. Playing a rigged game is just incredibly stupid.
Women are NOT to be granted any kind of authority of men, especially their husbands. But today all she has to do is pick up the phone and there goes everything you busted your butt for. Who needs that? When we ignore what God said in the Bible about all this and want to play the “oh we’re all equal” game then stick a fork in your country. Hell, as we can see from all the stuff Dalrock has posted, the gynocentric BS is all over the churches. They’d be far more honest if they’d just come out and say that they think they know more than God and proclaim Gaia as their goddess. In my book they’re worse than any pagan.
It isn’t hard to see if a person want to…
Put God first and your society survives. Put these silly little girls first and it dies.
FH,
“And are you going to tell that to Jean or not?”
It would not be equivalent to tell that to Jean at this time. Here is why:
1. I have been reading Earl’s comments here for at least 4 years. I have only been reading Jean’s comments here for about 3 weeks.
2. In addition to the comments I mentioned, there have been earlier times where I have observed Earl rejecting information that would improve his MMV.
3. I have not observed Jean rejecting helpful information that is being offered for her daughter.
4. If four years from now, Jean is continually rejecting helpful information then it would be appropriate for me to also tell Jean.
@Dalrock
ASDGamer, Artisanal Toad, now Jeff Strand.
Can’t you let Insanity Bytes back in for a special guest appearance? For a week? She was a lot of fun to troll.
The manosphere will have its greatest achievement if it can help harness the energy of the army of men out there who are despondent, broken down, hopeless, and fearful. The only way to do that is for those of who are married and actually enjoying it despite all the odds against it to bring in, care for, listen to and positively motivate the lonely ones.
I don’t get the feeling Jeff Strand understand this conundrum.
What information would that be?
Because if MMV is all based on whether I can create tingles or not…then I might as well not get married. But if MMV is based on being able to create and support a family…then that’s what I’m working towards.
Having thought a little more, I would modify that to read “one way” not “the only way”
I’ve blacklisted Jeff Strand.
No doubt he’s already ranting about how you’re just not alpha enough to handle or understand him.
“Nah, life isn’t meant to be fair. God has blessed me in other ways.”
What fortitude you possess. Now where is that ‘bowing down’ emoticon when you most need it?
“The manosphere will have its greatest achievement if it can help harness the energy of the army of men out there who are despondent, broken down, hopeless, and fearful. The only way to do that is for those of who are married and actually enjoying it despite all the odds against it to bring in, care for, listen to and positively motivate the lonely ones.”
Ecco, bravo.
Re Jeff,
Does ‘blacklisting’ mean he is banned?
I would have quite liked to hear more of his thoughts about the ‘virgin bore’. It is one thing if he says, ‘for me, I didn’t need to marry a virgin. A woman with N=1 or 2 or 3 is good enough for me’. I get that. I respect his choice. I also don’t think virginity is the ‘be all and end all’. It is a moral choice which is good for men (who will marry that woman) and the woman herself (who will have avoided the ‘complications’ of promiscuity – not just physical but also mental) but it is not a ‘cure all’ for the ills of the SMP. Understood.
But it is also important for men who don’t mind about virginity to also be mindful about the need for other men to be left in peace to state their choice without bashing them. If it is Earl’s choice or preference, so be it. Earl can decide for himself if it’s a criteria he needs to ‘adjust’ one day…
Were I in Earl’s shoes, it would annoy me no end to constantly hear ‘all these men who want virgins, I don’t understand why’ or ‘they are being unreasonable’ or some such. It is a logical and may I add, natural, choice. That it may need to be adjusted according to SMP supply eventually (as Jeff says, due to Earl’s age, location etc etc), does not change this fact.
So it is one thing to say ‘virgins are not my thing, for me it is not that big a deal’.
It is quite another to declare a 19 year old virgin a ‘bore’ on the basis of her virginity.
Did Jeff mean she had a boring personality in general? If so, fair enough.
Or did he mean because of her ‘inexperience’ she was ‘boring’ to him? If it is the latter, then that’s quite disappointing!
It comes with the territory that a virgin does not know ‘what to do’ whether it is kissing or anything else in that area…and naturally, she would seem ‘boring’. It does require that a man who gets with a virgin be patient with her. it takes time for her to ‘warm up’. But when she gets underway, it’s wonderful for them both (hopefully in the context of marriage, obviously).
This is even more depressing that Deti’s and Feeriker’s picture of the future – the realisation that the father of daughters is basically equating virginty with ‘boring’. If this is a wide-held view among fathers of daughters, then there will be more of the men who are currently denied good wives – logical, no?
What does Jeff tell his daughters regarding virginity?
I am curious…
(I am not aiming to target Jeff here specifically (and I respect everyone’s views on personal issues like this no matter how I may feel about them), just anyone who has his specific views on female virginity, so anyone else who holds the exact same view is welcome to answer my question, especially if they have daughters. It strikes me now, writing this, that I actually never knew my own father’s views on this. I NEVER had any sex education conversations with my Dad, ever. He gave me a book when I turned 11/12 and the beginnings of mammary buds started sprouting on me, but that’s it. Anything else came from Mum, siblings, school, life in general. My Dad was the ‘quiet’ type, lol).
Deti,
Once again, oh dear. What a Horror show you describe.
Then it might indeed be better for everyone if they all go MGTOW and WGTOW in the future. It would be much more palatable than the horrendous marriages you describe. If the MAJORITY of marriages are like that in the future, then I too would advise my own children never to get married. Given that I am a hopeless romantic/marriage advocate, that would be saying something…
Tragic…
@ Spacetraveller
Re “boring” and “knowing what to do” – personally speaking, when it would feel that a woman “knows what to do” in the intimate area, be it some elaborate kissing techniques or whatever other ‘skill’, it would be always a major turn off for me. Like following patterns set by somebody before, how she learned that this or that ‘should’ be done, because somebody in her past liked it that way or taught her that way. Non-virginity might not be a deal-breaker for a man, but even such man doesn’t appreciate ‘reminders’ (especially in the intimate moments) of her having some sexual past, that had impact on and shaped her preferences, approach, etc.
(Even Jeff Strand writes how he liked that it all felt like for the first time.)
@Spacetraveller…
My guess is Jeff found her virginity to be ‘boring’…because he regarded sex as just something for his pleasure. That’s usually how cads operate.
In general I’ve come to find those with plenty of sexual experience actually have less knowledge about what sex is all about. It’s about bonding with your spouse which includes the pleasure in that and the possibility of procreation.
Ofelas,
Yes, yours is what I now understand to be a ‘normal’ male view on this issue. That is why, when Lori Alexander asserts, ‘men prefer virgins, no tatoos’, etc, I believe her.
The ‘reminders’ thing is not something I can personally claim to understand (I think that may be just because women just don’t have a biological problem with this, me included) but I can still relate and imagine it, and certainly empathise if this triggers your ‘disgust reflex’.
And I think it helps if young women KNOW this, so that they can make better choices for themselves.
If young women get the idea that ‘it doesn’t matter’, for sure we will get more of this type of ‘experience’ in the SMP, which will turn off more and more men, leading to ever more inflation of Deti’s ‘sad bachelor group’. No-one wants that.
Earl,
Agreed.
A friend once said that she heard someone say of the West: despite eating more, we are actually ever more malnourished.
Yes, there is such a thing as ‘poor in spirit’ which is a lot worse than actually poor (in finances).
Earl,
“Because if MMV is all based on whether I can create tingles or not…then I might as well not get married. But if MMV is based on being able to create and support a family…then that’s what I’m working towards.”
The same information that vfm7916 offered you 4 or 5 weeks ago.
Your approach is; “all work, and no play.” Why would a woman want to sign up for that?
No it’s not.
Most people’s idea in this age especially for marriage is all play and no work. That’s the part I can’t do.
No Earl.
Most women’s idea of marriage today is “I play, you work.”
You guys are exhausting. Are you a woman by anychance?
And yet you were baited…
@thedeti More specifically it is: I play, you work for me.
It goes back to the cult of feelings again.
If a woman doesn’t want to sign up for marriage because it requires some work…then it’s not going to be much of a marriage to begin with. They’ll just divorce because they think they aren’t getting sufficient ‘play’.
@ Spacetraveller
I wrote that half-jokingly, but only half. I keep seeing, and hearing, that same theme in multiple places. Young, godly women can’t find a young godly man to marry, and young godly men can’t find a young godly woman to marry.
Maybe we older brothers and sisters in Christ need to help them find each other. We got any Yentas out there?
@ Jean
I’m not sure if you saw my comment on this subject earlier.
One way to circumvent that conundrum would be for your daughter to tell the older, married ladies of the church that she wants to marry a Godly man, and ask them to help her meet some.
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/what-a-setup-looks-like/
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/02/22/she-isnt-getting-enough-dates/
That’s been the case with me a few times.
Sometimes I just walk up and ask them out…other times people I know hint at the fact.
Dalrock,
I think it was primarily the AMOGing but he did sometimes mention Hitler.
This was on a blog by a divorced guy who, in my opinion, is the EPITOME of a blue-pill man. His fame, such as it is, is the result of this post:
She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink
That post currently has 4,391 comments in less than 3 years. The other post he emphasizes is An Open Letter to Shitty Husbands. You might find these of interest.
I am reminded of the view of Private E. Presley of Memphis TN who having boarded the USS Randal and awaiting to embark for Germany was asked by a reporter which type of woman was his favourite, to which he promptly replied ‘Female, sir’. Elvis, there, clearly no fan of Trannies. His views on Tats and Virgins were not mentioned but I think we can take it that he would not have cared for the former and would have insisted on the latter (at least for marriage). Hard to think that Elvis was not always considered a role model for young men.
Spacetraveller,
Your perspective (and the idea that it is typical for women) surprises me, primarily because I have seen the “disgust reflex” you mention expressed to the extreme by many Christian women regarding husbands viewing pornography. They vehemently describe their disgust and the emotional trauma. Based on their response, I would logically think that knowing their husband had sex before marriage with another woman would be absolutely unacceptable to them. Have you heard of that response to porn by wives?
OKR,
I bet few of those wives consider their own responsibility in leaving the porn door open.
The site you linked is so blue pilled I could barely handle it. She left because you didn’t respect her enough? Sounds like my former wife, except that it wasn’t true. He is unfortunately undermining marriages and that really is a bad thing.
Amazing that a man could go through divorce and seek to completely blame himself for something stupid.
THe prime reason for women divorcing at age 50 or under is lack of sexual attraction.
The prime reason for women divorcing at 50 or over is lack of respect.
Matthew Fray, the blogger at that site OKR linked? Well. Draw your own conclusions. He has a post titled “She feels like your mom and doesn’t want to bang you”.
Women do not leave sexually attractive men because they left dishes in the sink. Women will throw themselves at the feet of sexually attractive men. Women will not only do the dishes of a sexually attractive man – they’ll do his laundry, make him his meals, and spot him $200 for rent because he’s short this month – all that after working a full time job to support him.
Women will crawl over broken glass to be with sexually attractive men. Women will put up with all manner of indignities to be with sexually attractive men. Women will put up with mountains of crap to be with sexually attractive men.
Billy:
It never seems to occur to women whose husbands use porn that the reason their husbands are using porn is because they won’t sleep with their husbands.
“I am the only woman you can have sex with, but I will not have sex with you. On the rare occasions when I hold my nose and do have sex with you, I will do a pisspoor job and bitch and complain about it the entire time and make it clear I don’t want to be there or and don’t want to do that.”
I bet few of those wives consider their own responsibility in leaving the porn door open.
Innate female selfishness and solipsism + inability to grasp cause and effect = a psychobiological inability to recognize the unpleasantly obvious, especially when it leads to self-indictment.
The site you linked is so blue pilled I could barely handle it. She left because you didn’t respect her enough? Sounds like my former wife, except that it wasn’t true. He is unfortunately undermining marriages and that really is a bad thing.
One of the more obvious examples of the results of nearly half a century of abusive pyschosexual conditioning of the western male, to the point where he adopts what others here have described as a “Stockholm Syndrome” response to his environment in the (fruitless and vain) hope that the abuse will stop and that he’ll be afforded at least a modicum of respect as a human being.
Perhaps his whole hardcore trad Catholic take was just another troll job.
He’s a “sedevacantist” (meaning: “the seat is empty” — i.e., there is no real Pope). So basically “more Catholic than the Pope” by definition. Out of communion with everyone but a tiny group of themselves. That’s who you were dealing with.
Oh, and doesn’t everyone remember that he admitted that he committed adultery early in his marriage. He is basically a sloppy alpha who thinks he knows everything, and is fully out of communion with the Church other than in his own mind, something which has undoubtedly led to serious sexual sin. In other words, the very dead last person you want to be taking advice from.
They never give the real reason why they leave.
Dishes in the sink is so she doesn’t have to say the name of the guy.
Oh I knew that…just never met a sede who was a Hitler fan though.
When it comes to spiritual autism sedes are really high on the list. Apparently admitting Francis is pope is worse than pointing out things like fornication.
Apparently admitting Francis is pope is worse than pointing out things like fornication.
Well, he fornicated quite a bit before he married himself, and then again committed adultery afterward, so who is he to hold a bit of fornication against his wife? I mean, as a sede, he is his own Pope and all that, so he gets to decide the moral importance (or not) of these things, in his own mind.
Another thing to point out about Oscar’s ‘brother and sisters helping out’ for Christians to meet up…I did recently have someone point out a gal was interested in me…why did Earl say ‘pass’?
For one she has a nose ring and a chest tattoo, she likes to do a lot more masculine activities (rugby & martial arts), and on social media I often see her trending towards the emasculating route (especially to my friend’s husband). She certainly is knowledgeable about the faith…but those red flags are something I have to take into account. In other words…I do have standards and just won’t go out with anyone who shows interest.
OKRickety,
As Amy Winehouse famously sang, No no no!
Our ‘disgust reflex’ works differently, I think.
PAST sexual transgressions of a man are the least of our worries, as women. If he cheated on some other woman, even if we know this, it was HER, not me. Even deeply religious or sqeamish women can more easily negotiate this hurdle than most other problems when navigating through the SMP/MMP…
Think about it. Most women get with men way older than them. We don’t really expect a ‘sexually clean’ man to marry. So those that do, are incredibly lucky and, appropriately grateful.
If he did ‘disgusting’ things with some other woman in the past, OK, not nice, but we don’t really dwell on that. But the minute he brings it into the PRESENT, then the visceral reflex kicks in. But even so, it is not really the sexual act which is in of itself ‘disgusting’ (of course there are limits to everyone’s disgust level – I am not saying it’s a freefall situation…lol). It is more about ‘what it *means*’ for her – please see below.
This is the thought process: He is doing p%orn now in THIS relationship/marriage / is cheating with his secretary while he is married to ME? That is bad! Because what does that say about MY ability to ‘Keep a man’? (Blow to ego, you see).
And: Does he LOVE her? (As opposed to merely getting his base needs met by her and he doesn’t really care for her?)
These have different meanings for a woman – for biological and survival reasons… because this is now ‘touching the pocket’:
Basically, in which direction are his RESOURCES going to flow – to me and the kids on one hand, or to that b*tch?? 🙂
He did all the above to another woman IN THE PAST?
Sorry for her… but no, no disgust.
I think this is how it works for us women (just my own theory).
But from the way I hear things from mens’ perspective, a woman’s sexual PAST triggers disgust just as much as PRESENT sexual indiscretion because of the very high risk (in equal measure) in both situations that his genetic legacy may…well turn out not to be his. And that is a blow to the ego much worse than financial ruin, I can well imagine.
@SpaceTraveller
>specific views on female virginity
If a woman “claims” to want a moral, godly man, then it would be wise for her to read the following passages, and then ask whether a moral, godly man might be affected by what he reads in the Bible. (As in, be careful what you ask for.)
– Roman 12:1-2 “be transformed by the renewing of your mind”
– Col 3:15-17 “let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish”
– 1 Cor 2:14-16 “but we have the mind of Christ”
– Isa 55:7-9 “my [God’s] thoughts are higher than your thoughts…”
– Josh 1:8-9 “meditate of the words of this book day and night”
If a man is godly, and actually strives to conform his thoughts to the thoughts of God, then the thoughts of God that are shown in the Scriptures should be of prime important to any woman claiming to want to be with such a man.
And what does the Bible say about women, and about the kind of woman suitable for marriage?
– Deut 22: The woman who chooses to be a harlot, and then marries (i.e., non-virgin bride due to promiscuity): Death is the appropriate consequence for this bride. This applies directly to your question about whether virginity is important, and a reasonable criteria. Yes, the Bible allows (even sometimes requires) that a widow (former wife) marry, so there are exceptions. But the general rule to execute a harlot, if her new husband complains about it, still applies. (Some?) women look for the edge case, as an excuse for the mass to sin, but God gave a clear rule and expectation here. We live in an immoral world where we do not live by God’s word, so we do not execute harlots who marry. If God finds harlotry unacceptable, it should be not only unsurprising, but expected, that most moral, godly men will also find harlotry prior to marriage to be unacceptable. As you and others have pointed out, some men may choose to compromise on this requirement due to the lack of acceptable women, but this is neither a denial of the legitimacy of the requirement nor an indication that there is no cost to this sinful female behaviour.
– 1 Cor 11 – 2 behaviours for women (and also 2 for men) that are described with words like disgrace and glory. A serious Christian woman would want to know about these and then ACT accordingly.
– Deut 22:5 – a behaviour described as “abomination” or “disgrace[ful]”. A serious Christian woman would want to know about this and then ACT accordingly.
– Maybe 1 Cor 14? Passage about learning in quietness and submission. A serious Christian woman would want to know about this and then ACT accordingly.
– Titus 2:3-5 5 items to be taught to young women, including “self-controlled and pure”, and “busy at home”. A serious Christian woman would want to know about these 5 and then ACT accordingly.
But, of course, close to 0 “Christian” women in mainstream North American churches actually live out obedience. (Matt 21 – parable of the man with two sons)
My wife chooses to live out obedience. (No, not trying to AMOG; I had to travel thousands of kilometers to find a decent woman who similarly wanted me.) I find this obedience in my wife to be attractive. Even her choice to wear a head-covering in church is attractive to me. Seems like a silly thing to find attractive… until you remember that I “poison” (or “transform” if you prefer the Rom 12 word) my mind by reading and taking seriously God’s word, and remember that God’s word commands this act.
Spacetraveller,
How sexually “friendly” is that same woman with her husband? It is highly likely that she is not, as Deti notes. She creates a bad atmosphere and then complains when he doesn’t like it.
Deti,
Most porn shows women who actually want the sex, at least the ones I have unfortunately seen. How many wives are like that? (Very few is the unfortunately answer.)
I would love to hear some preachers push that part before going on an anti-porn rant, but I have yet to hear it even once across many preachers.
@ thedeti
Don’t the two go together? From what I’ve observed, women respect men they find sexually attractive, even when those men are, objectively, utterly contemptible, and unworthy of respect.
@ OKRickety, Spacetraveller
Could it also be (women’s disgust over their husband watching p0rn, apart from cases when she doesn’t really feel that way, but it comes as convenient tool to use in whatever manipulative agenda she may have) that she viscerally perceives a man watching another man f*** a woman (plus implicitly supposing that masturbation is involved), instead of doing it himself, as an epitome of male loserdom, so to speak?
And one anecdotal, to the topic of disgust triggers:
One woman acquaintance shared with me once (she was extremely drunk when relating that, otherwise she wouldn’t probably tell, it’s overall quite embarrassing) how she once run away (!) directly after they had sex for the first time with her boyfriend (after some half a year of dating, she 23, him 28) after a comment he made after the sex, that revealed that it was actually his first time/was a virgin till that point. She explicitly said it made her “feel like s**t” and tried to rationalize it away with such ‘explanations’ as that she felt/was “used”, but I believe it was simply her visceral response to finding out she exposed her eggs to what she perceived as a suboptimal mate (the assumption that he couldn’t get laid by that age so must be something wrong with him). The relation took a major hit from that, she never had sex with him again after that, and she broke up with him in some 3 months afterwards.
Nah…she felt guilty that she was the first woman he fornicated with. She could rationalize it better if he was as degenerate sexually as she was. Has nothing to do with her eggs getting exposed to suboptimal sperm (how the hell would they know that anyway?).
That would be enough for me to “next”. And who knows what else one would find on further investigation!
Billy S,
“How sexually “friendly” is that same woman with her husband? It is highly likely that she is not, as Deti notes. She creates a bad atmosphere and then complains when he doesn’t like it.”
But of course! The vicious cycle must start from *somewhere* afterall.
Sadly, things go wrong when one denies the other, so to speak. And yes, I agree with the general observation that it is usually the woman who cuts off the supply.
I think Ofelas answers your question in his first paragraph. The ‘disgust’ in this case is not at all about the ‘act’ (p%rn or whatever). It is a realisation that this act reflects badly on HER, so it is really a guilt trip caused by a bruised ego. And the resulting outrage may become the convenient excuse she needs to pull a trigger of some sort. A convenient disgust, if you will!
But then again, maybe I simplify this issue too much. If we are specifically talking about p%rn, then I should add the disclaimer that this is an addiction, and all addictions are complex for the sufferer and their entourage. Since I am not a psychologist with expertise in this area, maybe my thoughts on this are (mostly) worthless. I don’t want to upset anyone who may be a(n ex) p%rn addict, or the spouse of a p%rn addict.
@ Earl
I think you are wrong here, or: I think it’s how I said (preselection reversed basically), combined with substantial dose of crazy on her part, but we would definitely get more accurate insight from some woman, ideally a secular one, here: what would be a standard secular woman’s perception of 28 year old secular virgin man?
Spacetraveller,
A bad attitude and starfish sex are just as bad as cutting it off. A woman can easily make herself unattractive if she is not into it. Yet no one holds her accountable in the slightest.
Is standard secular woman fornicating left and right?
Spacetraveller,
Thanks for the reply. The ability of women to separate their mate’s past and present sexual behavior surprises me, because I think men are generally more inclined to keep the pieces of their lives separate. Although I think most men do separate past and present sexual behavior, the difference is much less pronounced than you suggest it is for women.
I would think that such a blow to the ego would result in a desire to make changes to improve one’s desirability. That doesn’t seem to be the case for women.
In my case, although I was “clean” but my ex-wife was not, she did not appear to have any such gratitude.
Yes, I dont know whether left and right, but yes, they sleep with (series of) boyfriends, to whom they have varying degree of bond and attraction, their reasons for getting into those relationships also vary, their commitment is often very conditional, and they consider it all normal = that’s how one does ‘relationships’.
Then her perception is shaped by fornication. Has nothing to do with how optimal a mate the man is.
Just like Strand saying a virginal woman is ‘boring’.
And they often consider eg ten months long ‘relationship’ long.
Of course, I didnt mean to validate the mindset or wiring. I also mentioned preselection in the other post, that actually happens to really works somehow along that way though.
She would have never known about it until he told her. Preselection isn’t as big a thing as most guys make it out to be…it has more to do with women commonly wanting what they do not have and not wanting what they have when they get it.
Pingback: No interest for an attractive Christian woman… or something else? | Christianity and masculinity
Oscar, a lady from a local church set up a matchmaking group on Facebook. We have introduced three married couples to each other so far. All the successful matches have been people that we have known personally. We just introduced them to each other and said, “Have at it.”
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1689720741311321/
Dale U,
Thank you for the bible verses, and for your comment.
Exactly! The rules are there, we may choose to follow them or not, to our gain or peril, accordingly.
So this godly man, knowing what he knows, would normally choose what he knows to be God’s ‘option’ for him, and he also does what he knows God wants him to do.
(Of course we are all sinful in one way or another and fall short of the ideal…but that doesn’t take anything away from the ideal situation that God has instructed us on).
Agreed.
OKRickety
“I would think that such a blow to the ego would result in a desire to make changes to improve one’s desirability. That doesn’t seem to be the case for women.”
Sadly not. Our default “sinful nature” is to blame someone else, and punish HIM accordingly (it’s always the man’s fault). Hence the faux ‘righteous indignation’ (I called this ‘outrage’ in my previous post, but ‘righteous indignation’ is a better description).
(Oh my God! He looked at p%rn! Lynch him!)
The correct way – and some (older) red pill women have taken years to come to this path whilst already married, others like me learned it before marriage, so at least we have this option at our disposal in case we need it in the future – is:
How can *I* rectify the situation I find myself in?
Helen Andelin in her book ‘Fascinating Womanhood’ has a few suggestions… she wrote a similar book ‘Fascinating Girlhood’ or somesuch for unmarried women. It involves being sweeter, (lose the inner bitch, and we ALL have one – how often she comes out to play is up to each woman!) lose weight if applicable, smile more, etc, etc.
Even the most ‘turned off’ man could be ‘turned around’ back to his wife if she made such an effort, and of course, if she WANTS to (which is a point you make later to someone else) and that swings us back to how much she is really attracted to husband in the first place…she would WANT to if she is attrracted to him but is nonetheless currently annoyed with him.
If she was never attracted to him in the first place, she would just pull the plug on him.
“In my case, although I was “clean” but my ex-wife was not, she did not appear to have any such gratitude.”
I should introduce your ex-wife to my friend who worked as a nurse in a GUM Clinic (we say in the UK GUM – for genitourinary, I guess you in the US call it an STD clinic) unil she reached her disgust threshold, lol.
She regularly fed me horror tales like this…until I begged her to stop.
16 year old girl in her first (consensual) sexual encounter caught HIV (from a man twice her age)…
An aristocratic woman whose husband had an affair during their 20 year marriage and gave her syphillis…denying her the third child she always wanted (because syphilis always renders women infertile – unless treated immediately, unlike other STDs where you can hedge your bets).
A young man who had what medics actually call ‘trash d*ck’ – yes, they use this actual term in the medical notes – it is a diagnosis in of itself apparently! The tip was full of pus…and looked like it could fall off at any moment. My friend as part of her ‘history-taking’ asked him when was the last time…
‘This morning’ was his answer.
Some woman somewhere had accepted THAT into her body *this morning*.
Your ex-wife, on hearing these tales might well go home and give her clean husband a long, warm, grateful, hug…
Are you sure she was ungrateful for your ‘cleanness’ specifically or is that she was just generally ungrateful? Hard to tell, I suppose…
But of course, a woman has to see male virginity as something worthy, to appreciate it, and it helps if she herself is also a virgin (otherwise its worth is lost on her).
Jean’s daughter would appreciate a man like you (were at the time of your wedding).
Well they aren’t bringing in trash d*ck, syphillis, or any other creepy crawlies into it…and it’s not like it’s rocket science on how to do the deed.
I’m sure this is more of an emotional thing for women.
Jean,
You might think such stories would make women grateful, but that has not been my experience. They expect perfection, especially “daughters of the King” (Christian women). Gratefulness is is very short supply.
@ jvangeld
Good job!
@Jeff Strand
“Again, not my experience. I had no problems getting dates and relationships in my 20’s. My biggest problem was that most chicks I got involved with wanted to marry me. It was my pick who I would decide to wife up.
Where did this trope come from that guys in their 20’s can’t get dates and girlfriends? ”
This is where I stopped believing a single word you say.
“Then who are all the girls dating?”
They’re not. They’re “hanging out”. They’re “hooking up”. If they happen to spend some one-on-one time, it’s with the most attractive 10%.
One of my friends is a ballroom dance teacher. When he’s in the room, no other man gets a second look from any female. Usually not even a first look. And it’s not that he’s trying to cause this effect – the guy makes a point of being careful and never going past mere politeness and casual-acquaintance friendship – it’s way out of his control.
Spacetraveller,
It seems you changed the usage of “sexually clean” from virginal to STD-free.
I agree. The important word is faux. In my opinion, this would be consistent with “churchian indignation”.
Not having heard of Fascinating Womanhood or Helen Andelin, I did a little research and was surprised that you knew of her, because she is Mormon.
I’m not certain if you are saying that all porn usage is addiction. If so, I disagree. Even some of the most vocal women objectors do not think it is always addiction.
OKRickety,
“It seems you changed the usage of “sexually clean” from virginal to STD-free.”
Ah, it may have come across that way, but I sure do hope not! That would be to cheapen virginity, and I am the last person on Earth to do that! Virginity is so much more than being STD-free as I am sure you agree!
I just gave this one example of ways to be grateful for a man who by virtue of being a virgin is *of course* by default also STD-free. Imparting the information from my GUM Clinic friend is a way to generate gratitude for him/you. I couldn’t quite use the other benefits of virginity here… Imagine if I said to your ex-wife:
‘Your husband is spiritually wholesome because he is a virgin’ or ‘he saved money by not having to buy condoms!’ or some other such statement. It wouldn’t cut it, me thinks.
The STD angle is a more persuasive tactic, I think.
“…because she is Mormon,”
At the time I first encountered her, I also didn’t know she was Mormon. I only heard about that on this very blog. I think it was Boxer who mentioned that she was Mormon.
It doesn’t change anything for me though. I think her message is sound. Good enough for me!
In this sense, she might as well be Catholic. 🙂
About the p%rn issue, yes, I concede. As with all things habit-forming, I suppose it gets addictive in the end, even if it doesn’t start out that way. Not to give p%rn addicts an ‘out’ here, just recognising the complexity of the situation.
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