Hospitality is the buzzword complementarians use to normalize homosexuality and demand that Christian parents provide gays with special access to our children. I’ve previously shared where Rosaria Butterfield and Pastor Sam Allberry (both of the ERLC) make this case. Pastor Matt Chandler (also of ERLC) likewise recently discovered that Christian hospitality requires that Christian parents bring gays into their homes.
But the wonders of Christian hospitality’s accommodation of homosexuality don’t stop there. Pastor Sam Allberry’s Living Out website explains that Christian hospitality requires that parents must not forbid their adult children from spending the night with their gay lovers. From How should I respond if my child comes out to me? (emphasis mine):
If your child is an adult and not living at home, then it is important to recognise that they are already making their own decisions and living their own life. Some people feel very uncomfortable with the idea, for example, of their adult children having a sexual partner to stay overnight in the same room. In my view, Christ’s call to show hospitality and acceptance in such a situation outweighs the need to send a message about whether a sexual relationship is right or not. Church discipline is precisely that – church discipline. It can only be exercised by the church, not individuals. Of course, you may want to talk through your beliefs with your child (provided you also listen to them explain theirs). But that can be done through an adult to adult conversation in which each person is able to share their opinions and accept that the other person may not agree. (Remember: if you disagree with their point of view, then by definition they disagree with yours, so grace is needed on both sides!)
This is an odd application of the term hospitality, because they appear to be talking about an adult child having their gay lover over in their own place, not in the parent’s home. However, this ambiguity may be intentional, and it may be designed to discourage parents from refusing to accommodate adult children who want to bring their gay lovers into their parents’ home to stay the night.
Either way, hospitality is the term conservative Christian gay activists are using to normalize homosexuality. The same article on children coming out as gay explains that normalizing homosexuality is in fact the goal:
Normalise it
I mentioned just now that you have temptations and sins too. We are all fallen, and almost all of us struggle with sexual temptation. If you do not experience same-sex attraction, you probably experience opposite-sex attraction to people to whom you are not married instead! So, reassure them that you don’t see yourself on any moral high ground above them. If appropriate, even mention (without details!) that you struggle with sexual temptation too and that you don’t regard their feelings as any different to yours – we are all tempted and we all need grace and forgiveness.
What is interesting about this claim is that if it is true, the same would apply to necrophilia, pedophilia, bestiality, and incest. The same would be true for this claim as well (emphasis mine):
Whilst their sexuality is an important part of them that you must accept and not deny, it is not the whole of who they are.
See Also:
I see you judgin, boy?
We don’t take kindly to bigots around here…
This is predictable. Complementarians already denigrated the authority of fathers in the home, in spite of what the Bible says (children obey your parents, honor your father and mother, etc.). Where the Scriptures paint a clear picture of familial authority, these people – part and parcel of their long march through the institution – are doing their best to make themselves the only ones with power over your children.
No wonder all my friends are going Confessional, Fundamentalist, or Orthodox. Half of them left these complementarity churches for someone, anyone that would verify the sanctity of fathers and family.
When I was 18, I moved out with my girlfriend and got an apartment. By this time, my parents had already jettisoned “Christianity” from their lives in any meaningful sense. It was no big deal to them. (Even though, just a few years earlier my brother and his girlfriend from college were not allowed to stay in the same room when he came home for Thanksgiving). Amazing how quickly you can give up on something so central to the idea of sexuality in Christiancontext.
About 6 months later, my cousin was graduating from high school and me and my girlfriend drove up to my aunt and uncles house for the weekend and celebration. We were given a room to stay in as they were/are a very progressive couple.
However, my cousins grandparents (the ones not related to me) were also staying in the house and were offended by this arrangement,
“Marcia, are Scott and his girlfriend staying in the same room? THey aren’t married, right?”
My aunt (their daughter) said “well, they live together” and this was the end of the discussion. We all thought they were so square and prudish.
In protest, they left and stayed in a hotel for the rest of the vacation. My girlfriend and I heard about this protest the next day while we all sat by the pool and laughed at their expense.
Now the chickens have come home to roost, and Mychael and I faced a similar predicament over Christmas. I stood firm and they stayed only one night with us–sleeping on the floor in the loft with the three biggest kids (who basically slept in a pile like puppies ensuring no funny business). THey left the next night and got different accomodations.
I’m not confused about what went on, but they aren’t married. End of issue. So aint happening, not in my house, not in front of the littles.
I think this story matters because I don’t think my situation was unique. During our lifetimes, marriage became an optional prerequisite for sex and sexual activity. And as Dalrock points out often, “love” replaced it as the foundation for whether sex can or should be occurring.
When we cry out about how awful gay marriage or even gay coupling is, we sound silly because we did not defend all of the other things that make marriage special. Now we just look silly to them, just like my cousins grandparents looked to me and my girlfriend. “They are living together” (or something like it) is the only response that matters.
All of that is waiting. Pedophilia and incest are already being normalized. Necrophilia and bestiality will be normalized as well.
When God warned the Israelites to abstain from incest, homosexuality, bestiality, and necrophilia in Leviticus 18, He did so because “all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled” (v. 27). In other words, the Canaanites were into incest, homosexuality, bestiality, and necrophilia.
That’s what happens when a culture reaches the “depraved mind” stage, as the Apostle Paul refers to it in Romans 1.
When a culture denies God, He “hands them over” to a sexual revolution, then He “hands them over” to a homosexual revolution, then He “hands them over” to a depraved mind.
Did the U.S.A. go through a sexual revolution? Obviously, yes.
Did the U.S.A. go through a homosexual revolution? Obviously, yes.
Has the U.S.A. been given over to a “depraved mind”? Ask yourself; how many genders are there?
You DO NOT, under any fucking circumstances, tolerate sin under your own roof. These people are in absolute confrontation to the Bible. In no uncertain terms, this is demonic.
This makes the obvious frauds, completely. Absolutely no question now. They are frauds and liars and evil.
We’ve come so far even the very nature of personhood and sexuality is in flux. A very small yet vocal and motivated percentage of the population us skin suiting everything. I knew this but never knew the complementarian collusion, even blessing, of this takeover.
ACE is even having a conference.
More importantly, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, along with Covenant Presbyterian and P&R Publishing, are joining forces to host Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human—the Blue Ridge Bible Conference in Harrisonburg, VA on March 29th and 30th. Tim Geiger, president of Harvest USA, is the special guest speaker, while Carl and Todd are just along for the ride.
How are we to think of ourselves as persons? How does one consider gender and the moral status of sexual attraction in light of Scripture? Society’s views on sexuality have been changing rapidly, but the roots of such changes are certainly old and deep. Plan to attend, and meet the crew at the conference!
Podcast is here:
http://www.mortificationofspin.org/mos/podcast/45264
Of course our fem host starts out the obligatory man shaming. It’s worth listening just to pinpoint the waffling they engage in. More importantly, will the latest conference be more appeasement and reminding us the Emperor had new clothes?
Scott, college friend visited for two nights in November. I was the best man in his wedding in 1996. He got divorced in 2005……two kids……..she left. When he arrived at my place he of course had his new “mid-life-crisis-girlfriend”
Perky, pretty, young (mid twenties). Sleeping arrangements? She got my bed. He and I slept in my living room with the cat. He understood. She was a bit of snot about it “what a prude” type of thing, and “Iheard about your drinking and drugging in college, now you’re all christian….you think you are better than us”
My college friend and I are radically different people than we were in 1989, and we will always have goodd memories, and a real friendship from those times and a bit after….but I am tied to my faith and stuck in my ways now….and he always had to prove himself about what people thought of him through a girlfriend or woman. Who knows.
When they left, hug exchanged between us, but call it hunch…..I probably won’t see him ever again
Does he mean the type of hospitality the city of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to show Lot’s guests?
I wonder what other sins the ERLC condones and excuses.
There is even a movement afoot within certain parishes in the Orthodox Church to accept homosexuality, but the Church is holding the line so far.
Had American Christianity held the line on heterosexual relationships: no sex outside of marriage is acceptable, then these questions about homosexual relationships simply would never have come up.
The solution isn’t to focus on homosexual relationships, it’s to refocus on heterosexual relationships and try to reestablish in the Christian community God’s standards for sex.
For American society in general, the horse has probably already left the barn, but that doesn’t mean we as Christians can’t stand on principle as a group. Christians should be in society, but not of society. We should be separated.
The recommendations in the article are a horrible compromise with society.
Where is Christ call to show hospitality and acceptance at ?? This guys veiw is off he may need glasses
“…almost all of us struggle with sexual temptation.” – But we are not to gratify our illicit desires and temptations. We don’t seek to spend the night with the wife next door just because we were born that way.
Almost all societies the world over know that gays are pedophiles. Only contemporary America is feverishly trying to undo awareness of this well-known fact.
Better to be a pagan than a complementarian.
@Otto
Whoa. That is insightful. The events of Sodom and Gomorrah seem very far away, yet the brazen insistence of sodomites isn’t any different, is it? For the moment it’s hard to imagine one’s neighbors gathering on your doorstep and demanding your guest, but it’s not hard to imagine pride parade people doing it.
I don’t even have the stomach to engage with their claims here. Its beyond disgusting and foul, and I don’t know how else to handle it. It enrages me beyond rationality to see this peddled.
The ERLC sounds like Pope Francis!
The question is can I marry my underage dead same-sex cousin’s dog according to Jesus?
“Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”
“Whoever welcomes him into his house shares his evil deeds.”
These passages do not seem terribly difficult to understand.
Church discipline is not to be exercised by individuals? “With such a one know not to eat.” Social exclusion is directly commanded by Paul, and hence by the Holy Spirit. This statement is interesting because it is a bald assertion, without support, diametrically opposed to the plain language of the text in question. It seems Allberry is counting on his audience being completely ignorant of what the Bible actually says; in this he seems to share a common trait with many of the writers reviewed here. Evangelicals used to have a reputation for at least knowing what was between the covers of their Bibles; this seems to have gone by the wayside.
Unfortunately there are pride parades all over the globe now, with some notable exceptions (like in Muslim countries).
Our neighbor to the south, Mexico, is quickly embracing the depravity, to the shock and disbelief of many down there. The leftist populist they recently elected president is leading the change into depravity, championing abortion and homo rights. Unfortunately, practicing believers, both Catholic and Protestant, are becoming the minority down there.
I spent my preteens, teens and young adulthood in Mexico City decades ago. Back then, none of my upper middle class female classmates slept around. My relatives who still live there say that now most girls will have sex with their boyfriends and casual sex too, and that finding a virgin to marry has become difficult.
Meanwhile, the Mexican revisionists make movies like the much heralded “Roma”, which falsely portray that it was no different in the 1970’s, that morality was the same then, contrary to what abuela (granny) says.
Or the pedophiles demanding access to your children.
“Hospitality is the buzzword complementarians use to normalize homosexuality and demand that Christian parents provide gays with special access to our children.”
“Hospitality” is a magical word used by wizards to bewitch normal Christians into thinking that allowing people who want to have sex with children access to their children is a godly thing to do.
Frank K,
I get your meaning. The “drag queen story time” child rapist in Houston is a good example. I took the time to do some follow up research; the drag queen in question was convicted of aggravated sexual assault on a child under eight, when he (the perpetrator) was approximately twenty-two years of age. His sentence? Probation (no prison time).
Observation one: The sentence was entirely out of keeping with Texas state law. Normally this crime would carry at least twenty-five years in prison at a minimum.
Observation two: The mainstream news articles I have seen describe the drag queen in question as having been “charged with sexual assault” or “alleged to have committed sexual assault”. In point of fact he/she/it was convicted of aggravated sexual assault. Either most journalists are unaware of the difference between “charged/alleged” and “convicted”, or they are being intentionally disingenuous.
Observation three: If Allberry cannot even object to sodomites getting it on in his guest bedroom, how can he object to drag queens reading to children at the library? Or does he object to such?
As Owen Benjamin would say, anytime someone talks like this, you need only reply “WHO IS YOUR MASTER!?”
Now, as to access to children… The majority of states allow an exception to statutory rape laws for married couples, e.g. if a twenty five year old man marries a fifteen year old girl and sleeps with her he is not guilty of any crime. Fair enough, so far.
Some states, however, (California, for example) set no absolute minimum age for marriage with parental and/or judicial permission.
Homosexual “marriage” is now a legal reality in all states and territories of the U.S.
If you are legally married in one state, all other states must honor that marriage.
Michael Jackson was (allegedly) shopping for wedding rings with eight year old boys.
Allberry and his ilk have left themselves no grounds to oppose this.
So what will you do when a middle aged pederast and his eight year old “husband” show up at the family gathering and want a place to stay for the night?
Personally, I have already located a good millstone I can get my hands on…
Yes, I noticed the waffling too. But don’t forget, the purpose of the podcast is to advertise and stimulate interest in the upcoming conference on March 29 and 30 for which is a registration fee of $45. They are actually selling the conference. So they don’t want to tip their hand because it may turn off a large group of Christians with a resulting loss of registration fees.
The “drag queen story time” child rapist in Houston…
Forget the rapist part, why is “drag queen story time” even a thing?
If you google it, there are multiple organized efforts to promote this. One organization lists chapters in: Boston, MA; Chicago, IL; Colorado (Northern); Long Island, NY; Los Angeles, CA; Milwaukee, WI; Mobile, AL; Nebraska; New Orleans, LA; New York, NY; North New Jersey; Palm Springs, CA; Puerto Rico; Reading, PA; Rockland County, NY; San Francisco, CA; San Marcos, TX; Sweden; Tampa Bay, FL; Tennessee (Middle); Tokyo, Japan; Vermont; Washington, DC; and Westchester, NY.
The picture from the home page of https://www.dragqueenstoryhour.org/ tells it all. That child knows instinctively there is something wrong here, but their mom (I assume) is pushing them along.
Image failed to link in previous post. Look at the expression on the kid’s face.
Pingback: Christian hospitality requires gay sex. | Reaction Times
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. The look on that poor child’s face says it all. Maybe she remembers the Sesame Street song: “One of these things is not like the others”
That parents take their children to see such abominations is chilling, and makes me wonder what will be considered “normal” in just another 5 years.
That is a powerful image, Otto. Children have a strong sense of natural law, but unfortunately it is trained out of them by these weirdos.
This was impossible to stop, though.
The reason is the same reason that the church capitulated on the widescale abandonment of Christian sexual morals for heterosexual people: if they didn’t, they would have lost millions of people, most of several generations and everyone after. Everyone knows that almost all Christians fornicate (sex before marriage). Many Christians divorce. Many of them also fornicate again “between” marriages. The sexual morality is in the trash can, is not “enforced” by the churches at all, because if the churches did, people would simply leave, period.
The homosexuality issue was treated differently because it could be: if the ~5% of the population who is gay, and impacted by the morals about homosexuality, stayed away, it’s a small sliver of the church’s population. So the church maintained a hard line on homosexuality, because it could without having massive bloodletting of attendees.
That changed with generational shift. For people under 40, and even moreso for people under 30, the homosexual issue is a litmus test — if you are seen as “anti-gay”, you’re viewed the same as being someone who is against “miscegenation”, and they will simply stay away from church — even though they, themselves, are NOT gay. What changed was that the young, straight people became intolerant of the church’s traditional teaching on homosexuality, even though only a tiny slice of them was directly impacted by that teaching. So the church is now responding the same way that it did to the heterosexual sexual revolution — accepting people as sinners, and that’s that. Again, this was inevitable — the church already “made the same call” when it came to virtually ubiquitous fornication, commonplace divorce, trashing of sex roles and feminism, in terms of adjusting to what people were doing in light of the sexual revolution in order to not discourage people from attending church. It was inevitable that the same call would be made again if and when the enforcing the teachings on homosexuality were to have a similar impact of discouraging people (beyond the small number of gays) from attending — and that switch flipped with the generational change.
The only reason this has taken so long to happen is because of the generational difference of opinion on this issue. Christians over 40 and those under 40 have wildly different opinions about this, and this is what has made the church slower to react. However, it was inevitable that the church, for the most part, would go in the same direction as it did for the other sex rev issues given the demographic split on the issue … and that has now come home to roost as the overall demographic shifts, and the church is loathe to alienate virtually an entire generation.
Within the next 10-20 years, all but a small number of holdout churches will at least tolerate same sex couples to the same degree that they tolerate sexually active and unmarried couples (fornicators), divorce and the rest of it. There will be traditionalist bastions, as there are today, but they will be isolated and small, and the mainstream of American Christianity will approach this issue the same way it approaches fornication.
We can argue until we are blue in the face that it is different from simple fornication because it is singled out in the OT as being an abomination, but that doesn’t sell to people under 40, and so the church will be going in this direction. We’d best get used to it, or get used to living in a traditionalist ghetto church.
They are being disingenuous, it’s straight out of the playbook. Lies are permitted, especially if they further the Narrative.
I remember seeing a documentary many years ago when the homo narrative was being pushed hard for the first time. Legal immigrant school parents were protesting what was being taught to their children. I recall one parent who complained that his child couldn’t name any work that Michelangelo made, but the kid was taught that he was a homosexual.
And to make matters worse the pace of change is now much faster. I can’t help but think that at most this country has 30 years left before it breaks down into complete anarchy.
TGC wants us to “field our A-team.”
Among others, A-teamers include the SSA whom Revoice told us are sent as prophets like Jeremiah to the church.
Likewise, when it comes to other areas of cultural engagement, we need to let our most credible voices speak. In a world where Christians are seen as homophobic bigots, we need to get behind the biblically faithful, same-sex-attracted Christians God has raised up to speak for and to his church.
They will speak ***for*** the church. With forked tongue
11:58 link omitted
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/christians-offensive/
@novaseeker
A traditionalist ghetto church will do far more for god than any apostate “churches”
@novaseeker
It is not impossible to stop. It is impossible to stop if you don’t preach the Bible and stick to it. The problem is not that society has degraded. It’s that the church has followed society and destroyed our testimony. We compromised. It’s not a them thing. It’s an us thing. The proper thing to do is for churches and individuals to repent and to re-establish ourselves for God and preach the truth. The people who are going to be lost based on not liking the doctrine are already lost. Moving them out of the church and into reality is much preferred to coddling them and letting them go to hell from a church pew.
While I’ve enjoyed reading the detailed comments, this is really summed up in one word:
Heresy.
@ okrahead
That’s because they don’t oppose it. Oh, sure, they claim to oppose such perversion… theoretically… right now, when there is not even a debate to legalize it… yet.
But, as we all know, the best predictor of future behavior is past relevant behavior. Therefore, we can reasonably predict that when the next perversion (pedophilia) is normalized, Allberry and his ilk will do the same thing they did with the last perversion.
They’ll perform the mental gymnastics, and rhetorical contortions necessary to claim the Bible supports that perversion.
By the way, I’m very disappointed to learn that Allberry works for Ravi Zacharias International Ministries.
@ Heidi
Children’s strong sense of natural law is usually trained out of them by their mothers, just as with the child in the photo, and the cases of the “drag kids” that keep popping up.
By the way, I’m very disappointed to learn that Allberry works for Ravi Zacharias International Ministries.
Very, very sad. Received a mailer from CRI (equip.org) hawking a book by none other than Russell Moore. I fully understand why Hanegraaff went Orthodox, but Russell Moore?
It’s metastasized.
Hi Oscar–I actually meant the mother; sorry that wasn’t clear. We have had people practicing perversions of all kind since–well–forever, but now parents are training their children to embrace said perversion.
“…if the churches did, people would simply leave, period.”
See I’m not convinced of this at all, paradoxical though it may seem. People need strength and certainty. Demonstrations of such don’t actually hurt you. I think its a shame that the biggest antiporn movement is from outside the church. People don’t hate discipline if you can give them a convincing reason why.
No, we’d rather alternate between dumbfounding laxity (liberals) and just yelling at people (fundamentalist movement and “tough love”).
And that is the rub. Pastors set themselves up as unjust arbiters. It’s ok when they and their friends do it. It’s not ok when you do it. And how dare you question the man of God?
Excellent interview with Greg Johnson, Pastor of Memorial Presbyterian Church in St. Louis. This is the church that hosted last summer’s inaugural Revoice Conference. The conference slogan was Supporting and encouraging gay, lesbian, bisexual, other same-sex attracted Christians, and those who love them so they can be empowered to live together in unity while observing historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality.
Pastor Johnson is asked whether there should be a similar conference for pedophiles with the slogan Supporting and encouraging pedophile Christians, and those who love them so they can be empowered to live together in unity while observing historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality.
@ Novaseeker
So?
If they’re offended by the Word of God, let them go. The dead will bury their dead. Some will repent. Those who know that Christ alone has the words of eternal life will stay. Either way, the Church will grow stronger.
@Mitch
Excellent find. How many Narrative boxes can one cat-loving soyster check?
@mitch Rather than spending an hour on that, can you give a timestamp for the bit you reference?
If they’re offended by the Word of God, let them go. The dead will bury their dead. Some will repent. Those who know that Christ alone has the words of eternal life will stay. Either way, the Church will grow stronger.
Sure, Oscar. But we both know that isn’t what most churches actually do, just as it isn’t what most churches did when the fornication explosion went into full bloom following the sexual revolution.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. The look on that poor child’s face says it all. Maybe she remembers the Sesame Street song: “One of these things is not like the others”
Is that a gay rainbow pride flag dress that mom has put on her small child, before introducing her to the aberration of which she is fearful?
Start young to ensure the full effect.
Oscar,
Romans 1 makes it clear that accepting such behavior and its promotion springs from rejecting God as the Creator. Look at the widespread acceptance of the idea of particles to people Evolution and you can see the root of all this.
@vfm,
The question posed is the subject of the video. Start at 4:20. “Pastor” Johnson talks is circles, throws every buzzword imaginable, obfuscates, redirects, avoids actualy answering the question, etc etc by the 20 minute mark.
That’s all I could take. Skip the first 4:19, nothing there.
Somehow Thomas Hardy was reading Dalrock a hundred years before Dalrock was born.
“While much is too strange to be believed, nothing is too strange to have happened”.
@ Novaseeker
I’m aware of that. I’m saying that most churches need to change that. Anything else results in a little leaven leavening the whole lump (1 Cor 5), and the church devolving into a lame, impotent social club.
“Some people feel very uncomfortable with the idea, for example, of their adult children having a sexual partner to stay overnight in the same room. In my view, Christ’s call to show hospitality and acceptance in such a situation outweighs the need to send a message about whether a sexual relationship is right or not.”
Umm…NO. My parents had a rule; if staying in their house, did not matter if the couple were dating, engaged to be married, or married – no couples slept together in the same room. It was simple; their house, their rules,
It seems that decades of leniency on church doctrine and on the written word – the basis for Christian dogma – was a very bad idea.
Christians gave an inch on these issues, thinking it would somehow endear them to God’s enemies.
Their adversaries then took a mile from that inch and then call all Christians “bigots” to their faces, and shame them publicly as monsters for not yielding even more.
The sad reality is that the modern day western Christian church is completely lost. it is contaminated to the brim with evil-doers and vipers.
Our great grandfathers and grandmothers would not even recognize it.
So how do you think God looks upon these developments on earth?
Do you think He is angry wit us? Or just saddened to see this progression?
And do you really believe He want us to all to suffer and fight and struggle to keep this ungodly, dying, rotting corpse alive?
I don’t.
Not anymore.
It’s not a church anymore.
Has it not yet occurred to anyone here that perhaps God’s will has changed – that he He now wants for this entire sham to fall apart and to let the truth finally come out?
Just do a Google News search on “youth pastor”.
So ‘living together’ couple stays over and you object. And the difference between them and a ‘married’ couple? A piece of paper from the state.
That’s where it all went wrong, when you turned over marriage to the state. You complain about the state now redefining marriage and appropriate sex but you still want to have your cake and eat it too by holding to extra-Biblical definitions of ‘marriage’.
Not letting them share a bed is mere posturing. Virtue signaling of the highest order. If you really cared there would be a shotgun wedding or the offending couple would be shunned by all involved; church and family. Where they sleep when visiting wouldn’t even be a consideration.
Until you are willing to do that in your life not letting them stay overnight is just as silly as the dad cleaning a shotgun routine.
Pick a side and embrace it. Either go totally free love or embrace and enforce Biblical sexual norms. If you won’t do that, you’re just a self-righteous virtue signaling hypocrite.
@Gary Eden
I see this complaint a fair amount, but it misses the real destruction the state has done to marriage as a family model. The real destruction to the family comes not in the form of a state issued marriage license or even (as bad as it is) no fault divorce. The real destruction comes in the form of the family courts assigning custody to the mother and levying child support against the father. This has nothing to do with marriage, in that by not marrying you don’t protect yourself in the least from the family courts. The other related mechanism that is independent of state marriage is the whole domestic violence machinery. So marry via the state, or don’t. It really doesn’t matter.
“Hospitality is the buzzword complementarians use to normalize homosexuality*
Please say it isn’t so? Are you against complimentarianism Dalrock? because I hate egalitarianism with a vengeance, and I think women need to get back to their God given roles and be submissive and obedient to their husbands. This world is going to hell in a hand basket because women are rebels against male authority
@Dalrock
I totally agree that the courts are the most destructive part. But it’s not the root cause. Law is downstream from culture. The courts only got that way because we turned over marriage and sex to the state, because we made the state our savior.
Pointing out the worst excesses is easy, but if you want to make real change, we have to address root causes and how to change them.
To change the current social structure, we have to take back control. That’s not going to happen via the political process. It must happen in our daily lives, in our families, in our churches. As the culture changes, the political part will take care of itself (or at least become possible). Right now, making political change on these issues isn’t even remotely possible. Even if Christians ran everything and were the only ones voting, it still wouldn’t be possible.
Take divorce for example, it was a cultural shift in what was socially acceptable that spiked divorce rates, not a new law…
@ Gary Eden
That’s where it all went wrong, when you turned over marriage to the state.
You’re being short-sighted, Gary. Politics is downstream from culture, and culture is downstream from religion.
In fact, the root word for culture is the Latin “cultus”, which means “a system or variety of religious worship.” Think about it.
Cultus
Cult
Culture
The problem isn’t that we “turned over marriage to the state”. The problem is that we rejected God, which degraded our “cultus”, which then degraded our culture, which then degraded our politics.
You’re only looking at the politics. You need to look a lot further back to find the root cause.
…extra-Biblical definitions of ‘marriage’.
Where in the Bible does it describe the ceremony or procedure to make a man and woman married? Nowhere.
The Bible does refer to many people as married, and not all of them are Jews or Christians. And yet, those pagan couples seem to be just as married in the eyes of God. Joseph declared that sleeping with Potiphar’s wife would be a sin against Potiphar, because she was Potiphar’s WIFE.
Sure, marriage rites and customs have changed over the centuries, but they have more in common than not. The binding of a man and a woman together in marriage is a universal constant found in every culture: from West to East and North to South.
So ‘living together’ couple stays over and you object. And the difference between them and a ‘married’ couple? A piece of paper from the state.
The difference is they are specifically declaring themselves NOT married. They haven’t had a preacher/priest marry them, declared a common law marriage, jumped over a broom, signed a physical marriage contract, had the groom’s father buy the bride from her father (not talking dowry here), or even stood in a field and asked the gods to bind them (all historical ways people married). Every culture in history (regardless of their ceremonies, laws, and customs) has treated couples who are not married differently than a married couple.
When a couple declares themselves NOT married, it really doesn’t matter what the current ceremonies ore laws are, they are not married.
Actually there is in the OT: leave and cleave after paying the father a dowry. Marriage license is an extra-biblical requirement.
Get back to me after you find the Hebrew word for marriage in the OT.
@Gary Eden, OK, I’ve heard this line of reasoning before but if sex = marriage than what does the word fornication mean? Can it have meaning?
@feministdestroyer
Welcome feministdestroyer,
Complementarians are the wolves in sheep’s clothing that brought feminism into conservative Christianity. See the founding statement of Complementarianism (Danver’s Statement), inventing a wholly new (feminist) sin of women being servile. Also see the founding book of complementarianism Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Feminism where Piper and Grudem invented a new reading of 1 Tim 2:14, creating a new model of women preaching to women (like Beth Moore):
They were so successful here that no one remembers the old reading, or even realizes that they changed the understanding of the verse a few decades ago.
Having thoroughly succeed in implementing feminism in conservative Christianity, the complementarian crowd has for the most part moved on to doing the same with homosexuality. All of what I’ve been writing about is being pushed by the main complementarian movers. John Piper pushes it. TGC pushes it. CBMW presiden Denny Burk pushes it. The SBC’s ERLC pushes it. Look at the primary signers of The Nashville Statement. All of the big players pushing conservative Christian acceptance of homosexuality are prominent signers of the statement.
It all gives a new meaning to the “hospitality” industry
What is wrong with this statement:
”If your child is an adult and not living at home,…”?
It’s popular for young people to move out of home these days, but Biblically, there is a certain amount of unnaturalness about it. See Genesis 2:24: ”Therefore a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife and the two shall become one…”.
In other words, biblically, children only move out of their homes when they marry and start a new family.
Did I get this right in my own life? No. Did I get this right in my son’s life? No: He left to pursue a career in a different country in his teens.
Did it get us into trouble? YES. Pre-marital fornication bothered me. It laid the groundwork for my own future dilution of belief, thinking I could mix the best of evangelical ”christianity” with university-educated progressivism. All it did in the end is put me in a place of spiritual paralysis on any issue. That became particularly troublesome when my children came of age and I ”didn’t want to be seen as a hypocrite”.
I had to make a very slow and painful return to faith where I am now.
My own son abandoned the faith of his father and adopted the atheistic materialism the world had to offer. Sure all of life’s pleasures were there. And they eventually made him empty and miserable. Thankfully, he turned his life around as I had, and thought to himself that perhaps his ”extremist, fundamentalist, far-right, homophobic Islamophobic anti Communist anti-Semitic bible-literalist father had a point. He is due to be baptised within weeks, and due to be married to an eastern European girl soon after that. Her views? Strictly Catholic Christian. I am quite sure that I have dodged the Progressive Bullet.
My point: This article reads like the musings of a university-educated small-c Christian dabbler and not like those of the leader of a church. The author/s HAVE NOT abandoned the sins of their past. When you don’t do that, those sins will come back and bite you and not let go.
@Mitch
That was sort of informative. I burned up my lunch hour on that, and remember again why I generally don’t care for podcasts.
First impression: is it typical that people doing these YouTube / podcasts have to babble like “Moh and D’oh, Your Morning Drive Time MORONS! WHOA, we’re WACKY!” for a while at the start? I took a real dislike to all three of them during the first five minutes. At least they did settle down and talk like adults by the time Pastor Greg Johnson phoned in.
First impression of Greg Johnson: he’s a weasel.
Personal Issue: I don’t care for a lot of preaching styles, because I don’t wish to be shouted at without reason, I don’t enjoy being talked down to, and there’s a peculiar aspiration “hhhhahhhh” that is becoming more common, it’s like millennial girl “vocal fry” only softer. Johnson has that, and it makes listening to him just that much more annoying. I can’t tell if he lisps or not, sometimes I think it is there, sometimes not. Either way, I find his speech to be cloying and vaguely effeminate.
Once they got done clowning around, the three interviewers sounded like normal men.
Substance: Johnson has some hairs to split, and he will split them for as long as he has to do so. Now I see why that ReVoice conference was the way it is.
Theology: there were some serious points raised that I’m not qualified to discuss, but every single time Johnson got evasive. Towards the end of the conversation at about 1:00:01 Johnson has a real “church of nice” moment that gets into “complexity language” blather. At 1:02:29 Johnson states “you quit categorizing people as good or evil” which is a really interesting choice of words.
But the most interesting moment to me is right about 57:45 where the term “effeminacy” comes up and Johnson has a very narrow definition all of a sudden. Then there is a really interesting question from the black man at 58:40 and Johnson…never really answers it. He talks until the 1:00:00 mark but never actually answers the question that was asked, instead he reframes. If anyone actually finds his answer, point it out to me because I do not hear it.
Johnson is slick, I will give him that.
Looks like the PCA will be splitting in about 10 years, if not sooner.
DRSmith
My parents had a rule; if staying in their house, did not matter if the couple were dating, engaged to be married, or married – no couples slept together in the same room. It was simple; their house, their rules,
Their house, to be sure, but an overreaction. I’m sure there is a backstory of some sort.
Telling a man “We forbid you to share a bed with your lawfully married wife in our house” would be pretty good way to cut way down on guests, at least where I live.
Imagine: you bump into your attorney and so you thank him once again for his skill in acquiring the condominium wherein you reside of which you are now the owner, to which he replies that well actually it is just a piece of paper and frankly although he does it for a living he does not really believe in the State’s register of properties. What, you say, am I then no more than a squatter?
My house, my rules, not open for discussion. We uphold, and honor, right, we have contempt and disdain for wrong. My dad always said, “This house operates by the Golden Rule, he who has the gold, makes the rules”.
Those people advocating this are definitely infiltrators doing their long march through the institutions. Fulfilling the works of the devil.
I don’t believe sex=marriage. But if a guy has sex with a virgin, he should marry her unless the father objects. That is what the OT taught, that is what our American ancestors followed. Look what it’s got us for going away from that.
@Oscar
This form of child abuse is usually done to little boys by their mothers usually. Why?
What is it about homosexuals and their immunity to criticism in regards to going this far evil?
Church discipline is precisely that – church discipline. It can only be exercised by the church, not individuals.
Idiotic point. Of course church discipline can only be exercised by the church. But …
* Parental disciple can be exercised by the parents, and …
* Parental discipline can overrule church discipline.
Why not? If the wife has “veto power” over the husband’s authority (as some pastors say) why can’t I have “veto power” over some gay-friendly church’s discipline.
The gay-friendly church has pronounced its discipline. Not let it try to enforce it.
The contemporary church is every bit as downwind from culture as contemporary politics, the only difference between the two being that the winds blowing churchward are a few ticks slower.
And just as contemporary politics now finds itself in the unwinable scenario of grappling with the extremes of sexual immorality – pedophilia, polyamory, “gift giving” among gay men, etc. – so too will the church in a very short timeframe.
The.acceptance of the values underpinning LGBTQ+ thought are a slippery slope leading to the worst expressions of gender and sexuality among humankind.
There’s a reason why YHWH God laid down such aggressive strictures against these things in the Levitical law.
Otto: The picture from the home page of https://www.dragqueenstoryhour.org/ tells it all. That child knows instinctively there is something wrong here, but their mom (I assume) is pushing them along.
The mom’s haircut is very butch. So the poor child might already have “two mommies.”
Or perhaps that woman is not the mom, but one of the LGBTQ activists running this drag queen story time.
I just noticed, that poor little girl is wearing a rainbow dress. The mom has turned this child into a walking virtue signal.
And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”
(sounds mighty…hospitable.)
DR Smith: My parents had a rule; if staying in their house, did not matter if the couple were dating, engaged to be married, or married – no couples slept together in the same room.
I don’t understand. Why couldn’t married couples sleep in the same room.
It may be your house and your rules, but that doesn’t mean you aren’t an idiot.
@Otto:
I wouldn’t have written that as a question, but that’s a quibble. Otto wins the thread!
@ info
I don’t have a good answer as to “why”, but I do have an observation. Mothers are also the ones who dress their daughters like sluts. What the hell, ladies?
What is it about homosexuals and their immunity to criticism in regards to going this far evil?
Culturally, they receive immunity by “virtue” of their position on the Leftist hierarchy of grievance. Note how no one goes after sodomites for enjoying “twinks”. Spiritually, there’s something else going on.
@Oscar
”I don’t have a good answer as to “why”, but I do have an observation. Mothers are also the ones who dress their daughters like sluts. What the hell, ladies? ”
True. It shows also that spiritual pollution impacts everyone and one needs Christ to be able to start to shake it off.
”All of that is waiting. Pedophilia and incest are already being normalized. Necrophilia and bestiality will be normalized as well. ”
I think pedophilia can be preempted by the fact that this has already been answered:
https://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/marriage_age.htm
https://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/marriage_age.html
And incest is obviously condemned and death penalty or exile was the OT answers to the crime.
…that rainbow wearing kid is looking at the tranny like a kid looks at Santa clause while sitting on his lap for the first time…. Santa clause and Jesus have been in competition and now there appears to be a third contender.
The solution to all this argument about mores can be fixed up by writing a new Bible.
It’s a living Document,same as The Con-Stitution.
I’m sure all the proper permissions can be enschonched in the theology of The New Word.
In fact I could be The New Messiah.
Needs more Peyote button!
“I don’t understand. Why couldn’t married couples sleep in the same room.”
Because sex is dirty. (But only if a man is involved)
It seems Allberry is counting on his audience being completely ignorant of what the Bible actually says;
Gosh, I wonder why he (or any other pastorbator these days) would assume that as a given? /sarc
Otto says:
March 19, 2019 at 11:33 am
I’m thinking right now of some really ugly things I want to see done to that little girl’s mother for handing her daughter over to a paedo.
Very poor choice of mother on that little one’s part…
dragqueenstoryhour makes it apparent that this is a funded, organized push. This isn’t just happenstance, not just random people waxing worse and worse. Moneyed interests are working to corrupt our children at the local level.
I really have to wonder if the whole complementarian thing is the same given the way it went and how they’re now doing the same for gays. The whole effort was a top down wolf in sheeps clothing attempt to undermine traditional roles in the church; it worked well. How long before drags are teaching Sunday School.
I have little hope for real pushback from the organized church so called. They don’t even have the stones to embrace patriarchy; nothing to prevent them from waxing worse and worse.
Weird when in Political Correct world, people bend over backwards to accommodate to even the most repulsive culture norms of their host when enjoying their hospitality.
@Otto
Clearly this is a mother representing her child to a crossdresser(?), appalling! She even dressed her (?) child in the obligatory rainbow colored outfit. Yet another symbol destroyed from its original meaning (covenant between God and the inhabitants of the earth) towards the left agenda, unknowingly doing the bidding of satan himself.
I enjoy watching the Youtube videos of Steve Turley PhD – he knows his stuff. Yesterday he posted a video as to goings-on in Birmingham, England. In what is England’s second city is a primary (grade) school where the headmaster had authorised pro-LGBT lessons (it was a criminal offence to do so until a little after 1997, by the way) from which exclusion was for his young pupils (under eleven) said not to be possible. The parents of the children however were having none of it and the school has thus at least temporarily cancelled the course – I am guessing the lessons are to be delivered by a professional homo-sexualist from an organisation such as Stonewall – and paid for by Her Majesty’s Government who are the promoters of the ideology. You will not be surprised to learn that the parents are all of the faith known as Islam. Christians always wax lyrical as to the oppression of the early church and its alleged martyrs. Perhaps unlike the Muslims, Christians have now too much to lose to draw that line in the sand.
It is my view that the queer-bashers of my youth are indistinguishable from the queer-enforcers of my old age.
DR Smith
By effectively putting marriage in the same category as dating here, it was not morally neutral but borderline scandalous (in the sin sense). A good pastor, finding out such a thing, would have rebuked your parents for giving the impression that there is any moral equivalence or anything unseemly about them sleeping together as a married couple.
I don’t have a good answer as to “why”, but I do have an observation. Mothers are also the ones who dress their daughters like sluts. What the hell, ladies?
What is it about homosexuals and their immunity to criticism in regards to going this far evil?
Culturally, they receive immunity by “virtue” of their position on the Leftist hierarchy of grievance. Note how no one goes after sodomites for enjoying “twinks”. Spiritually, there’s something else going on.
It’s the social power of women. Most of the “progress” made by the gay rights community has come because of the support of women. There are several reasons for this. One is that women are significantly more sexually fluid than men are, which leads to a more widespread sympathy for people who are gay. Another is that women do not have the same visceral disgust reaction that men do when it comes to gay male sex (neither sex seems to have a visceral disgust mechanism when it comes to female homosexuality) in the same way. Another is the overall feminization of social relations, where “feminine” emphasis on empathy/feelings/subjectivity replaces “masculine” emphasis on abstract norms/rules/standards — thereby leading to widespread support among women for LGBT.
it’s simply the case that without the significant feminization of social norms that has come about with the rise and success of feminism, LGBT “rights”, as we now know them, simply would not exist. In fact, I would say that the image of the child’s *mother* (or teacher or what have you) introducing the child to, and guiding the child through, “education” in LGBT stuff is one of the primary explanatory images of the entire movement.
No-one talks about that because … it involves women, and of course our culture does not believe in analyzing/critiquing women in that way. Everyone knows, however, that if the men were the ones who really had the say in the culture (which travels downstream to politics, not the other way around), LGBT rights would have run aground long ago, because most straight men (and almost all of us are straight) find gay male sex repulsive and disgusting, period.
@ Opus
That’s why you need to memorize; “there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.”
Thanks for my morning laugh! This article was hilarious!
Now that I am a parent of four little ones, and I get the opportunity to interact with other parents, I get a few distinct impressions about what’s going here and have not yet thought through the interconnectedness of all of them.
1. You get the feeling that things like taking the children to see the drag queen
at the library is a novelty. Like going to the circus or the zoo.
2. THe parents appear to be of the view that the there is no harm in any of this. (Or they have not thought about it at all).
3. They want everyone to believe that they are raising their kids to be open minded and therfore open to different expereinces, ways of life, etc and this is considered to be a universally good thing
4. They are probably not very well versed in what makes up a civilization, and what their micro part in it is
5. The social power these exercises have on other parents is enormous, basically irresistable. It’s why I can’t relate to any of them, save a couple people I know are super traditionalist Orthodox. Wives who wear head scarves to church and what not. I fully believe this a function of serbo-irishness and personality.
People are really wierd.
Leviticus 20:13
“‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
Well, that sounds like God was pretty definite about homosexuals, doesn’t it? Don’t see a thing about “tolerating” sexual perversion in the Scripture.
Aryan Blindboy says:
March 19, 2019 at 11:42 pm
…that rainbow wearing kid is looking at the tranny like a kid looks at Santa clause while sitting on his lap for the first time…. Santa clause and Jesus have been in competition and now there appears to be a third contender.
Tranny Claus, but I do not want what (s)he has in his sack.
@ Larry G
Well, that sounds like God was pretty definite about homosexuals, doesn’t it? Don’t see a thing about “tolerating” sexual perversion in the Scripture.
*Cynic mode activated*
“Has sexual relations”. The key here is that men like Sam Allberry only think about having those relations. They don’t do anything about it so are not under condemnation.
We can’t just start using simple, declarative statements out of the Bible as they appear. In this case they are “homophobic”. In many other cases they might restrict women’s liberation and discomfit church ladies along with their orbiters, servants, and enablers.
You have to be open to other interpretations. Not to worry as many thousands of words have been expended in the effort to clarify what we mistakenly thought was already clear.
*Cynic mode button is stuck. Cannot deactivate at this time*
If if heterosexual male was to do readings at the library, he would have to have a background check. Even then people would be wary. Homosexual men make up less than 2% of the population but make up a huge percentage of pedophiles.
Novaseeker you must first understand the dynamic of the tea-party to understand the competition aspect of drag queens and why mother dress they daughters up. What is the purpose of a tea party between a 5 year old and her father ? What does it do. It’s not about sexual desire it is all about winning enter female competitions. A 5 year old girl first victory is beating her mother out of attention of the father from coning him into the tea party. The second victory comes by how many friends she can acquire In 1st grade. Attention is the currency of realm and Human Resources the spoils of female war. And it starts earlier than you think Novaseeker.
My bad Novaseeker you was responding to some one else.
At our local library, everyone officially involved with the library, employees and volunteers, has to pass a background check. I suspect that this is true at virtually all libraries, yet the drag queen was given a pass. Obviously no one asked him because:
1) The Narrative
2) They knew what they might find and that goes against the Narrative
This is one of the consequences of the single pastor organization of Christianity. because his position as a little pope over his church is weakened by any man who thinks for himself, follows the Spirit, or wants to lead his own family they systematically kicked out any real men and emasculated all the boys growing up.
Now you have a church full of feminists and femen who can’t stand up to even the rudest of insults to their faith. Because they have no faith, or balls. If they did they wouldn’t be there.
@ Frank K
What could possibly alert anyone to the possibility that a man who wears a dress, a wig, and garish makeup might be a sexual degenerate?
There are pretty sound brain-related reasons why it is easier for children to learn a new language when they are under 10 vs. over 10. Many childhood intervention programs are specifically targeted to younger children since they are more moldable. The wisdom of ages agrees with this. Modern research into the neuroplasticity of the brain agrees with this.
Therefore it is obvious what “tranny story hour” is intended to do: desensitize children to men dressed as women, and indirectly to homosexuality.
One could ask the Alberry and ReVoice promoters why it is so important that children be exposed to their “gay” friends, but as the interview posted up thread shows – they would not give any real answer, but would retread to evasions and “niceness”. This is lying by omission.
“As the twig is bent, so the branch grows”…
@Lost Patrol
“We can’t just start using simple, declarative statements out of the Bible as they appear. In this case they are “homophobic”. In many other cases they might restrict women’s liberation and discomfit church ladies along with their orbiters, servants, and enablers.
You have to be open to other interpretations. Not to worry as many thousands of words have been expended in the effort to clarify what we mistakenly thought was already clear.”
*Cynic mode button is stuck. Cannot deactivate at this time*
LMAO! Best thing about God; He’s always right, nobody else is even close! Let the pervs have at it, THIS miserable planet is their paradise, it’s all down hill from here.
Spike — “My own son abandoned the faith of his father and adopted the atheistic materialism the world had to offer. Sure all of life’s pleasures were there. And they eventually made him empty and miserable. Thankfully, he turned his life around as I had, and thought to himself that perhaps his ”extremist, fundamentalist, far-right, homophobic Islamophobic anti Communist anti-Semitic bible-literalist father had a point.”
Good for you.
I went to Catholic grade-school, back in the Pliocene when decent educations still were to be had there. My Catholic dad went real easy on the preaching Christ part, and heavy on the doing Christ part. At adolescence I was allowed to stay or leave the church, and I left to pursue a secular life.
But the seeds my dad planted bore fruit many decades later. Your example chimes. After significant life-experience, your son came back around to God, partly because you’d introduced Him during the boy’s early years. This is VERY typical. Christian dads: plant the seeds and let God do His timing thing; don’t give up just because your son becomes wild, or wayward, or worldly. Be patient. Often some worldly bumps and lessons are what it takes to convince persons (like myself) of the power, efficacy, and superiority of the Christian way and life.
When the prodigal returns by free will, he never again needs convincing or convicting about God’s ways. By then he’s had plenty of opportunity to compare the ways of the world with the ways of heaven.
Novaseeker —
Correct. The norming of homos, the endlessly expanding LBGTQ etc. ‘rights’, open borders, massive Fed, complementarian (fake) pastors and ministers, and on and on . . . all these things derive from the rise and dominance of modern female power. The precious Empowerment they constantly scream for and obtain. Thus the Great American accuse-a-thon.
Try convincing a male American ‘conservative’ about the root of these evils; you cannot. Evidence is ignored. Once you point to the Woman Root at center of all these maladies, abominations, and pathologies, the conservative guys just fold. They clam up and fold. Become intransigent and hostile.
Wifey is their god. Princess Daughter is their god. Mommy is their god. The conservative men fear these, and not Jehovah.
Thanks Dalrock
That really helped clarifying things for me. Honestly your work here is invaluable, please do not ever stop what you’re doing. I’m at the moment trying to catch up and read all your articles
Thank you for being a voice for men, when the church has so utterly failed
I have on this blog referenced on other occasions my falling out with my bankers over their gratuitous promoting of Homosexuality yet one of the matters that has and still remains to me a puzzle is how the three female tellers could have been so enthused by the prospect of a Queer Grooming event for I was sure they were all or were likely to be entirely heterosexual.
Novaseeker at 07.70am yesterday gives what appears to be an explanation and yet my recollection is that women were always disgusted by male homosexuality and indeed as my friend was recently telling me his former soviet wife remains that way.
Is it that these women actually have no idea what they really think: were one of them to agree to a date and then one were to add ‘oh by the way the fact that I am bisexual/ homosexually inclined wont be a problem, will it’, then I am sure the date would be cancelled and instantly. Is then, I have wondered, female enthusiasm for Homosexuality merely a device to weed out those whom they have no wish to even consider dating – the neutering of undesirable males – who at best they will see as ‘like a girlfriend’.