Anonymous posed the following question in the comments section of Last one down the aisle wins part 1:
Dalrock – I understand the warning to the younger women to avoid this path, and the warning to mentors/society to quit giving this advice, but for the single women in their early thirties that have previously bought into the standard make-yourself-interesting-and-have-a-career mentality (but not the sex in the city mentality) and since realized it’s a bunch of crap, what is your suggestion to them? We could use some honest advice. I realize it’s a very unenviable position, but assuming good intentions and kind demeanor, what’s the best that can be done with what we have?
I decided to respond to this in the form of a post largely because I hope to enlist my readers in this process as well. If you have any kind wisdom to share with her, please do so. By the same token, while I normally am pretty wide open on comments I don’t want to tee her up for a series of cat food jokes. As Elusive Wapiti says, comment with honor.
My first thought is she is already ahead of her peers in both how she is considering the issue and the fact that she didn’t partake in the sex in the city mentality. My sense is that the biggest challenge women tend to face in her position is the change in attraction which can come from being with men who aren’t likely to want to marry her. While eligible men may be harder to locate and attract for a woman in her 30s than they were in her 20s, I think her ability to pair bond within her own “marriage league” is the far bigger challenge.
Finding eligible men:
As many others have already said, your first challenge will be to figure out what your priorities are in a husband so you can make the best “deal” possible. A good way to do this is list what you would trade for what. Is a good job more important than height? Is a sense of humor more important than looks? How much game would you be willing to give up for some other quality. This is true for men and women of any age looking to marry, but given the amount of focus on women in their 30s in this regard I suspect there is at least a kernel of truth to the stereotype. If you have one of those famously long “must have” lists for your future husband you probably want to do some thoughtful pruning.
Marriage checklist pruning tool.
Keep in mind that this isn’t about settling, it is about getting the most bang for your SMV buck. If you can pull a man who looks like Brad Pitt, is 6 ft 6, has perfect game and earns like Bill Gates then of course you should do so.
As for where to look, in addition to the traditional methods I would be on the lookout for men who have been as focused on their careers as you have been. Depending on your field of employment you may find your best options are right in front of you. The other group of men I would consider are men younger than you and/or men who would traditionally have been marriageable in their 20s but essentially dropped out of the dating/marriage market due to lack of interest from women their own age. Dating is generally a big ego boost and a lot of fun for women in their 20s, but unless a guy is a player dating tends to be the exact opposite for men in their 20s. Some of these guys ended up playing video games in their parent’s basement, but not all have. There have to be quite a few unclaimed eligible bachelors out there whom the right woman could coax back into the game. The trick of course is how to find them. By definition they won’t be the guys at the clubs, online dating sites, or the guy who runs day game on you. But you might bump into him in any number of public spaces nonetheless. Just don’t expect him to start the conversation and generate instant attraction and comfort. If he is marriage minded and knew how to do that, he wouldn’t be single.
Attracting men:
In addition to your physical beauty, you can also make yourself more attractive to prospective husbands by your attitude. Keep in mind that you don’t have to be perfect; you just have to be better than your core competition, who are women roughly your age and of similar looks. As the old joke goes: you don’t have to beat the bear, you just have to beat the other camper. Based on what I have read from men looking for wives in their 30s or later the two key traits you can bring to the table are humility (to a degree) and a serious attitude about marriage.
Generating attraction for your prospective husband:
This seems to be the hardest part, at least for some women. Hopefully you won’t have any issue here. I think there probably are some ways a woman can tune her tastes for men even in her 30s, but I’m guessing if someone found an easy way to make large shifts here we would have already heard about it. The humility I mentioned before and a painfully honest self assessment of your SMV will probably come in handy here. Also, I suspect that following some of the old customs women and men used to follow might help some. Simple things like having him drive, order for you at a restaurant, and deferring to him in appropriate areas, etc. Basically anything which would make a good feminist cringe. But if at the end of the process you can’t fall head over heels in love with the man, my advice would be to stop there. I have a post ready to go for later this week on the same topic; it just isn’t ethical for a woman to marry a man she isn’t truly in love with and attracted to.
I hope my thoughts on this are at least somewhat helpful. The last thing I will share is even though it is more difficult in your 30s it doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. My wife and I met a couple on a cruise a few years back who were newlyweds. The wife was in her early to mid 30s and the husband was in his mid 20s. He was a bit on the husky side (in an athletic way), but was extremely smart, funny, and had excellent natural game. I think they will be very happy together. Also, a number of commenters to this site have mentioned finding and marrying the love of their lives in their 30s or later. This of course is also borne out in the census stats. A significant number of women marry in their 30s and (to a lesser degree) in their 40s and beyond.
Information on chainsaw image available on wiki commons.
My advice to women in their 30s looking to settle down: Forget about Mr. Perfect, settle for Mr. Good Enough. You aren’t going to get the 35 year old lawyer with the $750,000 McMansion if you’re in your 30s, so don’t think that’s what you can get if you hold out long enough. You’re also very likely to be looking at divorced dads, so please please PLEASE vet the Ex – she can make your lives miserable without really trying.
The best advice I can give is this: who you marry is quite likely less important than what kind of wife you are going to be after you marry, so don’t get caught up in making the wrong choice. Make sure he has no prison record, has a good relationship with his family, a good job, and hopefully his own house, and you can work out the rest for the rest of your lives.
Say “Yes” to any request for a first date. Every. Single. One. Maybe not from a homeless guy, but anyone else.
That’s not a suggestion to sleep with them or enter into serious relationships with all of them. Or even to not date concurrently, as long as it’s just casual dating. My only point is that by the time you’re 30 you probably have (consciously or not) created a number of filters on the types of men you say “Yes” to. Well first impressions are important but they are also often misleading, and a man’s qualities may not become apparent until you’ve had a chance to observe him in his natural environment for a few hours. Simply pre-agreeing with yourself to say “Yes” to any request for a date is helping you get your unconscious filters out of your own way.
Will you go on a lot of lousy dates this way? Yup. But you’ll also be pleasantly surprised this way too. Men you might not date because of some quality or another (he has kids already, he’s got a weird tatoo on his arm, etc.) might surprise you with their better qualities once you get to know them a bit.
I knew of a woman who did this at 32 and she was engaged within the year, after going on a lot of bad dates. Call it the “Kiss 100 Frogs” strategy.
What many women in their 30’s don’t get is that men in and around the same age range and a little older usually become too independent to change. It’s really hard to give up our freedom and space for someone else, especially if we’ve spent a lot of it on our own. A lot of this stems from prior experiences and also dealing with women who constantly say they don’t need men. Well after so much time and putting up with the aggravation of it all, it’s just a lot easier to forget about commitments and even dating as many of us find other ways to enjoy life.
Women aren’t doing themselves any favors by sitting on the sidelines and if you want to find men, they better have something of real value to back it up with. Many of us have better platonic relationships with other men than women much less our hobbies and other interests. So to take away time from that, I’m afraid sex alone isn’t going to cut it.
I personally know of at least 20 single men including myself with no kids, never married, over 30 and under 50 that can easily be considered eligible bachelors. Why are we still single and more important, why is society producing these men? I think when women figure that part out, they just might have a chance.
A very thoughtful post Dalrock, and (I eagerly await part two) surely full of good advice, but…
I regret to say (now I think about it) I have never met a woman in her thirties who ever showed any interest in Marriage (or perhaps just in me). Worse still a woman at that age is usually married (see your stats) or divorced and if divorced may well have children and in either case is (for me – beyond pump and dump) an instant turn off. That just leaves those who have never been married. There is usually a good reason for that: Leaving aside Looks/Figure etc it will surely mean either bad attutude (towards men) or Slutdom (i.e. selfishness) and those two things are unlikely to change indeed they tend to become ingrained.
When a woman hits forty and remains single she will go Cougar (or Eat/Pray/Love ).
They are women whom life has passed by and are particularily dangerous and to be avoided.
As a rule of thumb: A man should probably marry between the ages of twenty eight and thirty five; a woman between twenty one and twenty eight. Bar bad luck (which can happen) you need to ask some very hard questions of a woman aged over twenty eight as to why she wants (if at all) to marry. By and large they don’t but as their biological clock begins to tick their Hamster will start running. Men beware!
what is this hamster thing I keep reading about? I see it all the time on these blogs can someone explain it to me? Thanks
I would say one way to think of it, Dalrock, is for people to recognize that there is a difference between their SMV and their MMV — that is, between your sexual market value and your marriage market value. They are two different things, really. Of course some of the things that go into determining one’s SMV (especially one’s overall level of attractiveness) are also components of one’s MMV, but the MMV has a lot of other things in it as well (such as the attitudes and history you’ve mentioned). A critical point, I think, is that the attractiveness component of one’s MMV is more calibrated to peer-levels than is the attractiveness component of one’s SMV, at least when it comes to women –> that is, a woman does not need to be a SMV peer of a man to generate sex appeal and success in the SMV, she merely has to be over a certain threshold for the guy. The same guy, however, when assessing a woman’s MMV, will be looking for a woman who is much closer to his own SMV. This is another way of saying that high SMV guys will have sex with and even date women with lower SMVs, but won’t marry them and will only consider marrying a woman who is their SMV peer. So a woman, when assessing her own MMV, has to take into account that the relevant aspect of her attractiveness for purposes of her MMV is not the highest SMV man she can attract for sex, but rather the highest MMV man who is in her same general SMV “banding”. And that’s a transition that, I think, can be quite hard for some women to make if they become used to dating higher SMV men than the men in their SMV peer banding. If they are totally “broken” in that way, in the sense that they simply cannot recalibrate and be attracted any longer to their SMV peers, then I think the best course is to avoid marrying, because a marriage to one of their SMV peers will likely be miserable for both people.
what is this hamster thing I keep reading about? I see it all the time on these blogs can someone explain it to me? Thanks
It refers to the “rationalization hamster” — the part of your psyche that seeks to concoct ex post justifications for your behavior so that it appears to be reasonable to yourself and others. These rationalizations have a tendency to build on each other with the result of a self-convinced view of reality that is quite at odds with objective reality. The hamster is used as a metaphor for this process — as in the mental picture of the hamster running at top speed on its hamster wheel, yet getting essentially nowhere.
Dan in Philly – ”Forget about Mr. Perfect, settle for Mr. Good Enough.”
Ah, shades of Lori Gottlieb. Not a good thing, I’m afraid.
I understand the sentiment, but the language choice truly stinks.
The idea of “settling” connotes a failure to achieve a goal, and “ Mr. Good Enough” only serve to reinforce that notion.
What is actually necessary for such women is to accept their equals. It going to require some of that ”humility” Dalrock speaks of, in admitting to themselves their own actual SMV/MMV, and concluding not that they are settling for good enough, but that they have been lucky enough to find someone their equal (and realize they could easily have done worse, but were very unlikely to have done better).
If they feel they’ve “settled”, there will continue to be many “what if..?” question for them, and an increased likelihood of marital dissatisfaction with the attenuate increase in the likelihood of infidelity.
It’s always been a source of great humor when someone posts a woman’s list of demands in a man (gleaned from a dating site, Craig’s List, etc.). Many of us have chuckled at the long list of what they wish for, often juxtaposed to their own self-revealed lack of SMV.
The use of the picture of the chainsaw was a perfect fit given the reality of what so many women will need to do to get THEIR heads straight about what a good husband entails.
slwerner said: “What is actually necessary for such women is to accept their equals.”
Take this a step further. A woman should first realize that no man is her equal; all men are above her. This is fairly easy to demonstrate if you accept Paul’s words on marriage and the sexes.
slw, the choice of language was deliberate (and indeed a reference to the link you posted) and intended to shock a woman out of her sense of superiority. They need to understand they will NOT get Mr. Perfect at this point in their lives, and that Mr. Good Enough is, indeed, good enough. For this reason, I followed the advice with the much more important part: Work on being the best wife you can be, rather than obsessing about maximizing your value in the man market.
In the long run a woman’s happiness will depend far more on her own attitude than who she chooses. Indeed, one of the problems I have with many game sites is too much focus on choosing, and not enough on what happens after the choice is made. If you look at game for guys or girls not as a prelude to a happy life, but rather as a tool to continue to use over your life, you will start to see a lot more applications than the utilitarian “Get the best man/woman possible” one.
Z: dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/the-rationalization-hamster-500/
Very easy steps:
1) Learn what a “beta orbiter” is.
2) Find your beta orbiters.
3) Evaluate them, and eliminate the bottom 1/3 or so as possibilities
4) Come to the realization that you now know your market value
You will probably not be able to marry a man that is equal to the most attractive man you could date – it just works that way.
Holding out for your list of must-haves is just keeping you priced out of the marriage market. Forget this nonsense about “settling”. EVERYONE SETTLES to one degree or another.
I’m not saying you should marry one of your beta orbiters, but you will get someone at that same level.
Reality check:
If you have dated too much from the alpha tree, or even if you have not, but have spent all your time under the alpha tree hoping for some fruit to fall, you JUST MIGHT have damaged your ability to have realistic expectations.
The reality on the ground for marriage minded people is very different than the lofty fantasy world of college-age dating. Your dreams WILL NOT COME TRUE – most likely because you have dreamed fantasies, not realities.
Perhaps you should refrain from seeking marriage until you reformat your expectations such that you could marry a good, average guy and actually be grateful to have him.
@monad, I’ll check that out, thanks to the other poster for the definition earlier, I thnk I see what you mean
@monad, I’ll check that out, & thanks to the other poster for the definition earlier, I think I see what you mean
Thanks for the mention, Dalrock!
As for advice, this is difficult because we don’t know much about your Anonymous commenter’s beliefs, traits, and qualities. But I think in general here are some things that may help:
1) Date with intentionality. You are screening for husbands, not out to have fun for fun’s sake. Have fun, but keep your goal in mind.
2) Let your prospective mates know this early. Although the timing and manner of your marriage-hunting disclosure must be finessed (baby rabies are scary), men who are serious about getting married as well will not be easily frightened away.
3) Perhaps I’m old school, but I think the man in general should be older than the woman. It’s just better that way. This custom feeds the natural predilections of both men (who generally want youth and fertility) and women (who generally want resources). This also means that the fellows you will be most interested in will probably be pushing 40.
4) A lot of, maybe even most, men in this age range already have children and have been through a divorce. Are you open to dating a recycle? Some of us have scars, some were divorced for a reason, others are perfectly good guys who were profoundly unlucky. Or some combination of all three. Thankfully, Mrs Wapiti was willing to put aside the baggage I brought with me (kids + an unfriendly ex), and our marriage is great!
5) Assess your own baggage (goes to the MMV that Nova was discussing above). Lots of debt? Previous divorce? Kids? Lots of sex partners?
6) Make a list of what you’re looking for in a guy. Only the top one or two should be deal-breakers. Mine were that she had to be a serious Believer, fundamentalist preferred, and want kids. Pretty much everything else was negotiable to one extent or the other.
7) Speaking of religion, if either of you will not be equally yoked, don’t go there. No missionary dating, and no missionary marriages.
8.) You touched on this already, but be nice. You would be surprised at how grumpy women are these days.
I think it’s important to be attracted to the person you marry. However, I don’t think there has to be intense levels of passion for it to work. Let’s be realistic–generally, only alphas generate intense passion in women. And even that declines with familiarity and availability. My advice to the woman in her 30s–give more men a chance, honestly assess your own desirability, and be happy with moderate or even mild chemistry. This will expand your filter, and if the man is a good match, chemistry will likely grow.
[D: Which is it; does passion and chemistry decline as you know the person better, or does it grow? And who is to blame when she later divorces the man she never really felt attraction for when she discovers that “she doesn’t love him anymore”?]
Look carefully at the company you keep. Your best friends may well be your worst enemies. If they’re hostile to beta-boyfriends, if they are bitter towards men, if they encourage you to make stupid decisions like slutting it up, if you feel like any of your life decisions need their approval… get rid of them. Find new friends, or even just tell them you need time to “find yourself,” by which you mean “get in touch with the good sense that you need to find a decent man.”
I’m only in my mid-twenties, but I’ve seen it in girls as young as 12 and as old as 40, they always have a circle of hens who make it their life’s mission to see that no other woman ever makes an independent decision, no matter the cost.
If you are fortunate enough to have real, supportive, well-grounded female friends, keep them close and ask them to help you stay on the straight and narrow. If you have the clucking hens, ditch them by any means necessary.
Also, Jack’s comment:
1) Learn what a “beta orbiter” is.
2) Find your beta orbiters.
3) Evaluate them, and eliminate the bottom 1/3 or so as possibilities
4) Come to the realization that you now know your market value
This is solid gold.
Wapiti nails what I wanted to say; make sure you at least take a look around one’s own church (synagogue, whatever) and other organizations in your faith first. I know “missionary marriages” that have worked, but they’re far outnumbered by those that did not.
Along the lines of “be nice,” women (and men for that matter) need to remember basics of looking good; posture, exercise and sleep, and for goodness’ sake, SMILE from time to time.
On another practical view, make sure you’re getting to know the PERSON beneath that skin. When my wife and I married, a friend of hers expressed some surprise that our first time together was indeed on our wedding night–evidently most of her other friends, yes church friends, were milking the cow before it was in the barn, so to speak, and sadly reaped the consequences of that.
A bit of dignity and self-respect do a LOT for “SMV” and “MMV,” to put it mildly.
Let me throw in my two cents. I know a little about this. Mrs. Detinennui32 was 30 when I met her, 32 when we married and in the same position as Dalrock’s commenter.
1. Some women (not the commenter seeking advice) were on the alpha carousel. They either got tired and realized it was a waste of time, got burned, or hit the wall. I’ve known all three types. It’s time to get off the carousel and discard the carousel mentality (I’m special, I’m The One, I deserve an alpha 10 every time, I deserve to have him and keep him, I have a right to be a slut and not be judged for it). Again, this doesn’t apply to our commenter.
2. It bears repeating: be brutally honest about your SMV and your MMV. Both values have probably declined because you’re not as young or as good looking as you were when you were prime marriage material in your early 20s. You’re just not. Dl everything you can to improve your physical appearance. Whether we like it or not, men still look at physical appearance. It’s not fair. But that’s the way it is. Grerp had a couple of posts on this. One was called “Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror” or something similar. Grerp.blogspot.com.
3. Identify what you bring to the table. Dalrock said in the past that to demonstrate her marriage value, a woman needs to bring something special to the bargaining table. What do you have to offer? Certain skills? Career going well? Like kids? Want to be a SAHM? Identify what you have to offer a man and make it known.
4. Be pleasant to be around. Be nice. You don’t have to be obsequious. Just be pleasant company. Eliminate profanity from your discourse. Eliminate sarcasm, cynicism, bitterness and jadedness as much as you can. Those are some of the most unattractive human traits but are doubly unattractive when women display them. Try to keep a positive outlook on this exercise. Be willing to subordinate yourself somewhat. Men need running room to chase a little.
5. In your own mind, be singularly focused on your goal. Your goal is to find a good husband. Not a husband — a GOOD husband, the best you can do with what you have. If you can tell a man is not marriage material, or he’s got a “dealbreaker” personality trait, or you’re not the least bit attracted, or something’s just not right, end it immediately and don’t go out with him again. And tell him why. At the risk of sounding too blunt, you don’t really have any more time to waste.
6. Dan in Philly is right. You’re probably not going to get everything you want. But you can get most of it – and you will get everything you need. Whittle that 463 bullet point checklist down to dealbreakers. I think my wife’s list was something like “has a job, doesn’t smell bad, can problem solve, and wants kids.”
7. Don’t look or act desperate.
I don’t know which is the most difficult for a woman in her thirties: Finding a reasonably quality guy who is still unjaded and want to start a family or improving herself and her attitude to be able to attract and be attracted to a reasonably quality guy with scars/baggage and convince him that you will be different from the woman or women who gave him the scars/baggage, so he wants to remarry (quite difficult) and even have children with you (really difficult)?
But some women in their thirties have had the ability/luck necessary.
A friend in his early forties divorced his much younger wife (no kids) and met a woman in her late thirties who he now has a child with. And a divorced early forties father whose daughter is friends with my daughter is together with a woman in her early thirties who is now pregnant. Another friend was a rather committed bachelor until his mid forties when he met a very attractive and pleasant woman in her early thirties, maybe even late twenties.
But most divorced guys with children do not want to risk going through a divorce again especially with children and will want to play the field, if they can, and/or use their extra time and money (if the divorce is not too straining financially) for himself (and his children) and will only change their mind if they get a really sugar coated deal.
Maybe waiting to remarry a childless woman or a woman with grown children when the woman is in her late thirties/early forties and he is in his late forties/early fifties.
If a woman in her thirties is not wanting children, her options will be much better.
Respect goes a long way. Men are tired of the misandry, both overt and subtle, that gets pushed in their faces. Men know they’re not perfect, but are tired of constantly being scolded and belittled. Women demand respect, so do men – or at least they should.
Plus, even if you make yourself more attractive as a potential partner, there’s still the problem of divorce laws and Family Court that men are afraid of. Until this issue is fixed, men are still going to be unwilling to make a commitment. Are you expecting him to trust in your goodwill that you’re never going to divorce for any reason?
I’m tempted to say : “Why bother?”.
At 30+, the better part of your life is behind you. If you have been able to make it so far being single and childfree, why would you suddenly want to settle?
You made is so far without commitment: why would you want to scrap your life now?
At 30+, men and women are set in their ways: that’s why marriage and kids are such a heavy burden.
Not worth it, really.
I’m only in my mid-twenties, but I’ve seen it in girls as young as 12 and as old as 40, they always have a circle of hens who make it their life’s mission to see that no other woman ever makes an independent decision, no matter the cost.
I think that this is in the nature of most women, in general — not having bad friends, but needing the support of a circle of friends to feel “right”. By and large “social” anything is far more important to women than to men. In the context of relationships, most women, even introverted ones, need/want a circle of friends as support. For all the talk about wanting to be independent, in my own experience, women are generally speaking much more dependent on others when it comes to decisionmaking than men are, by and large.
The key, therefore, is for women to find *good* friends — women who share their values and will support them in an appropriate way, rather than women who will be peddling pop culture values and Cosmo and enforcing them in the social peer group.
For a man, it follows that it’s of absolutely critical importance that you vet a woman’s friends before you marry her. Not because she’ll always have the same set of friends, but it’s instructive as to the *kinds * of women she tends to befriend or allow herself to be befriended by. It’s critical, because these are the women who will be having a substantial impact on your wife and her decisionmaking, most often when it comes to … you. More influence in many cases than her family members. So it behooves men to vet the friends in terms of the types of women they are, the lives they lead, and what their values are, as a critical part of evaluating any woman’s suitability for marriage. Remember, divorce tends to run through groups of women friends like the flu.
[D: Which is it; does passion and chemistry decline as you know the person better, or does it grow? And who is to blame when she later divorces the man she never really felt attraction for when she discovers that “she doesn’t love him anymore”?]
In my experience, chemistry with an alpha can be intense and immediate–however, it can subside as the man becomes familiar. I’ve never felt immediate chemistry with a beta, however, if there’s some attraction and we connect on many levels, it grows.
Look, I know divorce is a real risk–one of the reasons I married as late as I did was to ensure I made a good choice and didn’t end up like my parents. So yes, men should be wary and make sure they marry someone who seems like she will stick with her vows.
But is intense passion really what holds a marriage together? That’s a flimsy foundation. If there is an adequate level of attraction, combined with a deep friendship, shared values, and a determination to honor vows, that seems like a much more solid bet. Probably the riskiest women to marry are those who’ve never dated an alpha at all–these might be more likely to idealize them and think they can capture one if they try hard enough.
My advice to her would be to join a convent or find an all-engrossing hobby.
The alternative is years spent picking over the carbonized ruins of a post-feminist landscape of emasculated young androgynes, empowered divorced men with no intention of re-yoking themselves to the plow, or PUAs who secretly keep score with each other to see who beds the most young, willing women before moving on to the next. After a few years, lonely married men may even be in the mix – there are a lot of them.
You are better off not knowing what you will find if you go down this path too long.
At 30, she is better off focusing on her career and steeling herself for the inevitable stage of life that all people face in their 40s and 50s: a hospice for dying dreams, overall a much sadder place for the empowered, entitled women of today than it was for stronger women of a generation ago.
Saepe ne utile quidem est scire quid futurum sit.
1. Your husband comes first in the family, not the children. It is through the husband/father a healthy family will succeed and your children will be best served. Don’t “demand” children and start acting like you have baby rabies. Men your age will simply see a “sperm wanted” sign and run the other way.
2. Make yourself aware that your husband is just as sentient and alive as you are. He is not an “object” to “have” like many women want “children” like they do “drapes.”
3. Your job is to make him happy. It should not be a chore to make him happy. You should want to do it.
4. Stay thin and attractive. So sorry, but dats the facts of life.
My advice is to consider the demographic factors of your community that make men more likely to marry. In my opinion, what makes men more likely to marry is:
1) Religious values
2) Living in a community where the sex ratio is not skewed in their favor. Men of a certain age and certain status in New York City, for instance, are widely outnumbered by women who want to marry them. They have little incentive therefore to marry one of them. They will act like jerks — because they can.
3) Cost of living. A man who cannot afford to support children will make less effort to signal his willingness to marry. He’s shadow inventory.
If the demographics are not in your favor, consider moving.
Agree with Brendan’s distinction between SMV and MMV.
I can recall two unmarried women in their 30s who married great guys ………both to same-aged, divorced men with children. One she met in a bar/pool hall on vacation, and the other in the workplace (hospital).
agree with Julie’s comments that intense sexual attraction does not hold a marriage together.
>> have previously bought into the standard make-yourself-interesting-and-have-a-career mentality (but not the sex in the city mentality) and since realized it’s a bunch of crap >>
Do you know what marriage entails?
Lots of people can get married, but far too many don’t remain that way.
Do you and your potential husband have realistic expectations?
If not, you’ll be back to square one believing that what you were fed was all “a bunch of crap.”
Realize that whatever you’re advised to do to attract someone will be expected of you to keep him and that makes a lot of people resentful.
For instance, you’ll have to be willing to put in the effort to keep yourself in good physical form/dress appealing even after kids and aging? It’ll take more effort than it takes you now, are you willing?
As she picks over the smoking, bleached bones in the American dating landscape of the 30+ woman, she needs to understand the following:
1. Barren Landscape: You are in a desert. The stagnant muddy pool you come across in a few months may be your only hope of salvation. That is, if you never make it out of the desert.
2. Scratched and Dented: Pick over everything you come across. The goal here is to complete your mission, not endlessly ponder what might have been.
3. Know Thine Enemy: Keep in mind that if you do find someone who makes you happy, your female crone-companions will do everything they can to sabotage your relationship. After all, who would they have to socialize with if all their fellow spinster-crones got hitched? Understand their petty rage and jealousy and be aware of its power.
Happy dating!
@Demirogue:
Do single middle aged men like yourself want to get married and start a family? I understand not everyone wants to have children; it’s just I can’t imagine an adult voluntarily staying single. That sounds like an awfully lonely lifestyle choice.
You mentioned your platonic male friends and hobbies; so what you’re saying is middle aged women just use guys for sex and don’t make any connections? “Go ski with your friends, I don’t need you! I’ll go do my own thing!” Like, women don’t want to even consider getting involved in your life?
…You know what’s weird? I’ve noticed that with many older mothers with young children. They refuse to alter their lifestyle to accommodate their new families. Like, I know a woman that went on a week long spa trip by herself and she left her children with her spouse. Her children are young and her spouse has a full time job. Instead of thinking “awh, good for you, you deserve it!” I just thought she was being selfish.
Hm, maybe selfish women are the ones that are single at 35? That would explain why they have trouble finding a spouse and getting married.
A few things:
1.) One of your problems will be that the men who would otherwise be interested in marrying you aren’t as romantic as they once were. Even if they’re not plugged into the MRM, many men in their thirties will have the vague sense that something is wrong with the marriage market. It is also a fact that men become less woman-obsessed (though never uninterested, I think) as they age. So you’ll need to be able to make the case (implicitly, and to the right guy) that marrying you will make his life better. Of course, some men (i.e., me) just won’t marry in the US period, but you can usually sniff these guys out pretty fast; they say things like “I won’t marry in the US, period.”
2.) Be physically attractive. Three parts to this. First, you gotta be a reasonable weight. IMO the cutoff is somewhere around size 10 or 12; above that and if you don’t drop some pounds nothing else will much help your attractiveness, there or below and you can probably carry it off, though thinner is (generally) better. Second, be in reasonable shape — not flabby, but the triathlete look is probably overdoing it. Third, spend some time around foreign women. Do what they do. There’s a reason men rave about B-girls even though they aren’t (IMO) terribly cute.
3.) Most of what you’ve spent your life doing is unfeminine. (The “standard make-yourself-interesting-and-have-a-career stuff”.) Harsh but true. Marriage is all about being feminine. (Errr … for a woman.) Much as you’d craft a resume when looking to change fields by downplaying/minimizing all the irrelevant stuff, and playing up the skills the employer wants, it’s best to forget all the career-gal stuff as far as looking for a husband. To most guys it’s an irrelevancy, to some guys its a negative. (“If she’s so into her career, will she be able to be a good wife and mother?”) Men aren’t looking for providers, so career-centrism isn’t attractive. Having a career is fine, just don’t give the impression that it’s Who You Are and What You Offer.
There are two types of things you can do. Increase market value, and use the market value you have more effectively.
Increasing value (in order of importance):
1a. Weight and fitness. I don’t want to set off any anorexia “triggers”, but there are few women in their 30s who would not be more attractive if the lost a few pounds, and gained a little muscle tone, just to firm up their features and curves. Exercise will also give you clearer skin. Men are visual creatures first and foremost. Go from a pleasant figure to an attractive one, from an attractive one to a stunning one. (As for cosmetic surgery – from my own encounters, I would say its a risky investment with unpredictable results.)
1b. Demeanor. If your goal is marriage, this is just as important. Most singles accumulate habits, pet-peeves, and become proud of various things. There is a loss of perspective as you become older, less accommodating, less patient, and more ego-centric. De-program yourself. Be a more cheerful, optimistic, patient, forgiving, less-opinionated, less-demanding person. Swallow your pride and figure out what things you can compromise on, or live without. In short, be a more traditional, more feminine person. And don’t kid yourself – find the nicest married woman you know, the one everyone adores, and measure yourself against her.
2. Domestic skill. Not much to say here…cooking and cleaning. Men value it, and they value getting those services from a woman who loves them. If you want to buy food and hire a maid, he doesn’t need to get married to have that.
3. Long hair. Seriously. Lustrous long hair is a marker of health and youth. It should be well-maintained.
4. Clothing and cosmetics. Not that important. Just look put-together, and make an effort to look good, every day. I’d say about half of single women don’t have this problem, and may in fact spend too much time, creating an impression of shallowness and high-maintenance. Other than actually improving your appearance, what attention to clothing and cosmetics does is signal your willingness to spend some time and money to be attractive to men. But don’t go overboard. The details will be wasted on men.
5. Competency in modern life tasks. Being a single, in your 30s, and still alive, you have sufficiently demonstrated your ability at the mechanics of modern life. Being better at these things may marginally improve your value, but I think most men are for women to simply meet some competency threshold.
Using your market value effectively (in no order):
1. Everything Dalrock mentions. Prune your checklist, evaluate priorities. Bald, short, divorced – how important are these negatives to you?
2. Discuss fertility. A marriage-minded man who wants children will have fertility questions depending on which end of your 30s you are on. Be honest and discuss this at an appropriate time. If he’s not an asshole, he will probably not touch this topic, because it is obviously a very intimate and emotional one for women. You’ll have to bring it up.
3. Accurately assess your market value, using the beta-orbiter method mentioned above.
4. Risk embarrassment. While it is certainly true, at least to me, that shyness and coy behavior are attractive feminine traits, you may not want to bide your time. The optimum level of coy vs. aggressive behavior is different for a 22yo vs. a 30+yo. Be willing to sacrifice some of your pride just to generate more encounters with romantic-potential. Decide yourself where that balance is.
5. Decide whether you want children or not. I personally believe that a huge part of female happiness is being a mother. Do not deny yourself that if it is important to you. You will simply have to sacrifice something else. On the other hand, if having children is not important, your options are more open.
Lots of good comments. I’ll add just a couple of them.
First, by now you have to see that you are going to have to work at this. I always hear people talk about how finding a job when you are unemployed is a job. It’s not a one hour a day thing. You have to put the work in. Same here. And forget about the rejection because any husband (job) hunt will have it. Just view it as getting you closer to the best fit.
The second part is an add on to all the suggestions that you exercise, eat right, develop a pleasing demeanor and on and on. Sure, you should do all of that. Just like you should assess your strengths when looking for a job and work on your weaknesses. But do these things for you first and foremost. If, in the end, you are still alone you at least have improved yourself. Not a bad thing.
Just don’t sell some guy a bill of goods. Don’t present yourself as this pleasant, fit, exercise loving, careful with money, commitment focused, vow serious, loves kids gal who makes love like there is no tomorrow and then revert back to the exact opposite once you close the deal. I cannot think of anything more soul crushing to a man and a relationship to find out that it was all an act. Especially if the guy you married is all of those things.
If you can’t or don’t want to do the work for yourself first then don’t bother and certainly don’t get married.
I’d like to clarify something. All this advice to women about being pleasant is good and true. All men want this. But there is more that needs to be understood. Alphas know how to deal with a woman’s emotionality but Betas often do not.
A woman will be emotional at times. Negative emotions are a fact of life. Just don’t take them out on a man. You can have all of them and express them. Make sure you tell the man that you will be emotional and that he should just listen (or pretend to) and that he should not offer any advice or solutions unless he first says “I know how you feel.” It is a mistake for a woman to stifle emotions because it is impossible. An emotional outburst will eventually happen and then watch out. Many men do not know how to handle it when a woman gets emotional so give him some tips on how he can navigate your emotionality.
Such things could drive a man away if he had a very bad past experience or has no clue that about a woman’s emotional reality. Another tip is to tell him that when he has heard enough, to just give you a hug and say, “Hey Babe, It’s going to be alright. We will make it through this.” These two bits of advice work like magic, even if she knows that he is following a script. The reaction is de-escalation and it is hard wired in women.
Also laugh at his jokes and encourage him to tease you a bit so you can both laugh.
Dalrock – Thanks so much for taking the time to post on the topic, I really appreciate it. The input from you and everyone who has commented is so helpful, and it’s advice nobody else is giving. If you don’t mind, I have a couple of follow up questions if anyone has any input/insight on them, I’d love to hear it…
1. re: “serious attitude about marriage”/ “but as their biological clock begins to tick … beware!” – As a 30 something I’m always concerned about not coming across as “husband shopping”. I wouldn’t want to make someone I care about feel like he was just a placeholder to fit into some predefined plan. How do you communicate your sincere interest in marriage without accidentally making him feel like anyone will do?
2. re: “a painfully honest self-assessment of your SMV” / “the highest MMV man who is in her same general SMV ‘banding’” – I know women are notoriously unable to assess their own SMV (e.g. http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/why-women-overrate-their-looks), and I think probably even more unable to assess their MMV since I guess it’s generally SMV adjusted for other factors. It’s like a blind spot for women (and it’s a bit of a circular reference to say your MMV is determined by who you can get to commit to LTR/marriage, and you figure out who will consider you LTR/marriage material based on your MMV). Since it is so important, what’s the best way to figure out about where your MMV “band” is? Painful is okay, I just need to know what I have to work with.
I’m 32 and I’ve been dating someone I’m crazy about for 9 months. I hate the pressure of this, but at 32 he doesn’t have very long to decide about getting married (maybe another year max) before I’m too close to the 35 year old cutoff for kids. Which means, if I wait to see how it goes with him and it doesn’t work out, I’ll have placed myself out of having kids. I’ve gently brought up the subject here and there, and he seems sensitive to understanding the age issue for women (he wants kids for sure and is against having them with a woman over 35), he’s been encouraging about the relationship and consistently invests a lot emotionally (we attend church together etc.)… but that’s not actually a commitment, and it feels wrong to put a man on the spot and give him an ultimatum about marriage. To make matters worse, he’s 36, easily a 9 (depending on how important a lot of money is, to me it isn’t that important), and is marriage/family minded (not the player or overly alpha type). So I feel like, in theory, I’m competing with like everyone (even though he isn’t seeing anyone else). How do I figure out what my best move is? Wait to see how it plays out with someone I’m crazy about but is possibly a more risky bet because of his high value, or decide I’m out of time and try to find someone I can be happy with that’s maybe “safer”? I hate to be a chicken and bail on someone that really matters to me, but I’d also hate to ignore the reality of a situation and make a stupid decision.
To Anon-RTPTQ:
With respect to #1: Your sincere interest in marriage will be self-evident. If you’re serious about getting married, your behavior and dress will be different from the party girl or the career-uber-alles woman. Your dates will be auditions to be his wife and the mother of his children.
I wouldn’t worry too much about scaring guys away – you probably don’t want to waste time with men who are scared of marriage-seeking women anyways. As for worrying about making him feel like a placeholder, your other behavior will determine that. Are you loud and controlling? Are you insistent about doing things your way? Work on those things. Verbalize your willingness to be flexible about your future plans, but your actions will speak louder than works.
In short, don’t worry about hiding your desire to get married. It’s a useful screening mechanism. But work on your personality and demeanor, and try to compromise and surrender control to your date, who, after all, may be your future husband.
WRT question #2: The beta-orbiter method. Just search this page for the words “beta-orbiter”. Another honest (although unreliable) signal is to look at the caliber of people you get during blind dates. These are the people others think are in your league.
I would seriously reconsider getting married at all.
Being a wife is EXTREMELY hard work and is really only personally satisfying a fraction of the time.
When you get married you are basically volunteering a man to be your boss. He rules you…when he wants sex you put out even if you are tired or angry. If you gain weight you make it the highest priority to lose it. If your husband says you need to move to the arctic tundra you move to the arctic tundra. When you are single if you dont’ feel like cooking you eat cereal. Do you think a man is going to put up with eating cereal for dinner? No. Way.
Then you add kids and other responsibilities and nothing changes..you are still a wife first. No matter how exhausted you are your wifely responsibilities come first. There will be days when you think “why the hell did I sign up for this?”
In the manosphere you will hear how marriage sucks for men. They are right, and the only thing that makes it wortwhile for them is if the wife is a VERY GOOD wife…but guess what…being a VERY GOOD wife is sometimes extremely difficult and extremely sucky…
There is no time-off from being a wife. There are no sick days. There is no more “having it your way”… If you want to be a wife and you expect to be a good wife then carefully consider the cost. If you aren’t up for it then don’t do it.
The beta orbiters method is an interesting idea, but I think it has a serious flaw. While the typical critique of women in their 30s and beyond is having a list a mile long, I think they also tend to forget to consider the man’s game. It is basically a given in their minds.
But it isn’t a given. Not all men have the same level of game. Beta orbiters are an excellent case in point. If they had game, they wouldn’t be beta orbiters. I think women often look at guys like that and assume he is roughly interchangeable with a guy just like him but who has game. But they aren’t even in the same class.
Butterfly Flower:
Do single middle aged men like yourself want to get married and start a family? I understand not everyone wants to have children; it’s just I can’t imagine an adult voluntarily staying single. That sounds like an awfully lonely lifestyle choice.
I suggest you find the book “For Women Only” by Shaunti Feldhahn. You will learn things about men that will astound you, such as the fact that if men are forced to choose between being loved or being respected, most will choose the latter.
Women emotionally have a need to be loved, men need to be respected. Modern women often have a great deal of contempt for men (it’s intrinsic to most varieties of feminism) and it shows in various ways. Men don’t want to be around that sort of thing, and they avoid women who are contemptuous. In some parts of the world, that means pretty much avoiding most women under 60.
it’s a bit of a circular reference to say your MMV is determined by who you can get to commit to LTR/marriage, and you figure out who will consider you LTR/marriage material based on your MMV). Since it is so important, what’s the best way to figure out about where your MMV “band” is?
There is no fool-proof way, I think. Beta orbiters are a good indication of the kinds of men who are interested in you, likely for more than just easy sex. That’s one indicator. I think, however, it probably has more to do with trial and error in terms of dating guys, being up-front about being interested in something for the long-term and eventually getting married, and seeing how they react. This screens out guys who are not interested in marriage, of course, but it also screens out guys who might be interested in dating and having sex with you, but see you as below the MMV threshold. It’s understandable that this can seem awkward, but as others have pointed out, in today’s dating world where casual sex has kind of become the norm, it’s critical to beak that pattern by making it fairly clear early on in a firm but polite way that you are really only interested in long-term arrangements — it screens a good deal of the men for whom you are over the sex threshold but not at the MMV threshold, and actively selects for the men who are the converse.
Anon/posted question:
Let me try answering 2 first. (a) In addition to your own honest assessment, ask a man who you trust what he thinks of your MMV using the criteria below. It needs to be someone you have no interest in as a suitor. Perhaps it could be your brother. Don’t ask a gay man. Don’t ask a woman, not even your closest female friends. Never ask a woman to assess your SMV or MMV.
(b) let me suggest a formula.
If SMV= youth + physical appearance, then consider that a reasonable formula for MMV is probably (in order of importance):
MMV= SMV + C+ D + LS – SP
where C = commitment level (how serious you are about getting and staying married)
D = demeanor and personality
LS = life skills and competencies (how capable you are at handling what life throws at you)
SP = number of prior sexual partners
SMV is paramount. Keep in mind your SMV now is lower than it was 10 years ago. Your appearance and relative youth get you in the door. SMV is still most important because it’s the first thing we see. Some women work on their appearance despite getting to their late 20s and early 30s. Women must offset age with appearance improvement (weight management, dress and makeup; NOT plastic surgery or complete wardrobe makeovers). Most women, if they work at it, can still be very attractive at 30 as long as they (1) keep their weight down reasonably and (2) learn tasteful application of cosmetics without overdoing it or trying to look like a 20 year old tart.
C and D are most important, followed by LS. SP is least important at this stage of the game. Prior sexual partners are a negative for a man looking to marry at any age, for obvious reasons. It will come up. Be prepared to deal with it. Honesty is the best policy.
Now for number 1: I think honesty is best here too. Let a man know you believe in marriage. This will require some finesse, or “girl game.” You might say something like “I believe marriage is a good thing. What do you think about it?” You’re probing what the man thinks and finding out his plan, not just talking about what your “plan” is. You might also ask him about what his plans are. Remember that you’re interviewing a potential husband, but there’s no subterfuge going on here, not really. This has to be a sincerely held belief or it won’t work and will come off quite mechanical.
For more on girl game, check out Athol Kay’s site at marriedmansexlife.com or Susan Walsh at Hooking Up Smart (someone help me on the address). They are the Manosphere’s foremost authorities on girl game.
Second, I think many men will deduce on their own that you’re interested in marriage if you’re entering the serious dating scene in your 30s.
Third, consider that “girl game” on marriage is going to weed out PUAs and players, and those men who are either gunshy or just aren’t in this looking for a wife. You even mention marriage and don’t get a straight answer or you get blown off, you’ve got a player or someone who’s never going to walk the aisle.
Fourth, don’t come on too strong about it, at least not at first. Don’t even say the word “marriage” or any form thereof until a few dates in, I suggest. You might scare the hell out of an otherwise great guy, and you will appear desperate.
As for getting a man:
Simple. Go to a comicon convention dressed as Wonder Woman.
Plenty of men enjoy the comfort phase of a relationship and allow it to stagnate. This is most evident with alpha LTR’s and beta boyfriends who simply don’t think about proposing.
Your move here is to make clear that your prerogative is marriage. The fact is, you cannot count on him asking for marriage within your time frame. Ask him point blank if he is interested in you as a marriage partner. If so, ask him what qualities you need to show to gain enough value to make a marriage happen for him. Do not sleep with him on a regular basis before marriage. Plenty of greater beta players are able to play the 30 something crowd for sex while running for commitment.
I can’t help laughing at the idea posited above that a 35-year-old lawyer is some great catch for a woman. I guess I’m surrounded by too many schlubby lawyers (myself included). Anyway, the best way to snag yourself a lawyer (although why you’d want to is beyond me) is to go to law school and enter the legal profession. All the lawyers I know married between ages 28 and 32, usually to people the same age, and usually to fellow lawyers.
@ Paige at 5:16:
“Being a wife is EXTREMELY hard work and is really only personally satisfying a fraction of the time.”
Let’s ask our intrepid anonymous commenter how personally satisfying her life is now, as a single woman in her 30s. If it’s so stupendouly joyous all the time, why is she here, in the manosphere, asking men what she should do to get one of us to marry her? Why does she feel something’s missing? What is she looking for? Companionship and a helpmate, I suspect. My wife says being a wife is extremely hard work, but it has immeasurably enhanced her life. Maybe Anon has seen it your way, Paige, and has decided she wants to take a chance on something better.
“When you get married you are basically volunteering a man to be your boss. He rules you…when he wants sex you put out even if you are tired or angry. If you gain weight you make it the highest priority to lose it. If your husband says you need to move to the arctic tundra you move to the arctic tundra. When you are single if you dont’ feel like cooking you eat cereal. Do you think a man is going to put up with eating cereal for dinner? No. Way.”
–This is ridiculous hyperbole. No 21st century woman with an IQ over 70 would do any of this or put up with any of this (except maybe for the weight thing, but most women I know who feel pressure about weight get that pressure from other women, the culture and the media).
“When he wants sex you put out even when you’re tired or angry” What are you talking about? You’re not describing any woman, married or single, born in the United States since 1940.
“When you are single if you dont’ feel like cooking you eat cereal. Do you think a man is going to put up with eating cereal for dinner? No. Way.”
—Are you serious? Come on, Paige. No married man I’ve ever known – even the most clueless and caddish – treats their wives this way. If they did, they would not be married for long.
“In the manosphere you will hear how marriage sucks for men. They are right, and the only thing that makes it wortwhile for them is if the wife is a VERY GOOD wife…but guess what…being a VERY GOOD wife is sometimes extremely difficult and extremely sucky… ”
—Paige has a false dichotomy problem. To her. marriage is one long sloggy drudgery after another in which the husband is a crass, unemployed, knuckle dragging neanderthal with a seventh grade education, a wife-beater T-shirt barely concealing a beer gut, and three days of facial hair growth shouting “Go fetch me a turkey pot pie, wench!” But she also wants married life to be something it will never be: all magic pixie dust, milk and honey, money growing on trees, and endless orgasms. Life, either married or single, isn’t that way. Married life isn’t endless sex, but it’s not endless prison or torture either.
At least if you’re married, you have someone to share all that with. You commit to do everything you can to make your life better for yourself and your spouse. Sometimes you succeed. Sometimes you fail. Sometimes you hurt each other. Sometimes you laugh together. Sometimes you cry together. Sometimes I am the knuckle dragger. Sometimes I’m the knight in shining armor. Most days I’m just detinennui32, doing my best to hold up my end of the bargain by working and making the money. And I love it. Sometimes Mrs. D. is a raging wench. Sometimes she’s a beautiful courtesan. Most days she’s just Mrs. D., holding up her end of the bargain by doing her best to care for our kids and our home. And she loves it.
Most wives are good wives, most of the time. Sometimes they are very good, sometimes they are crappy. Most husbands are good husbands, most of the time. Sometimes they are very good, sometimes they’re crappy. I’ve been very good, good and crappy. My wife’s been very good, good and crappy. That’s life.
“There is no time-off from being a wife. There are no sick days. There is no more “having it your way”… If you want to be a wife and you expect to be a good wife then carefully consider the cost. If you aren’t up for it then don’t do it.”
Husbands get no time off either, nor do we get sick days. We don’t “get it our way” either. Come on Paige. Are you serious?
Anonymous–
I agree with most of what Dalrock said. However not about dismissing dating web sites. I’ve never used one but know people IRL and online who have. I think lots of early and mid thirties women do find marriage partners that way.
Maybe not all husbands are demanding, but you shouldn’t go into marriage unless you are prepared for the realities I listed and are willing to accept them.
Also, I want to highlight Paige’s comment at 5:16. The problem with all this traditionalist advice to women in their 30s about how to snag a man — by deferring and letting him take the lead, etc. — is that it begs the question of why on earth would a woman want a man on those terms?
I think the better advice is to learn how to be kind and generous to your partner without being deferential. A man who wants deference from his partner is going to be a problem for his woman in the long run.
Ceer makes a great point. Our commenter needs to look out for PUAs and players, mostly lesser alphas and greater betas. The female “low hanging fruit”, to wit:
1. women 30 and over, esp. recent divorcees or never marrieds
2. single moms
3. ahem, generously proportioned women.
Unfortunately, the above are prime pump & dump candidates. I’d suggest Anon eschew sex for a while and find out how serious her dates are about marriage, either directly or with some game.
Anonymous–
What waiting so long to find your marriage mate has done is not make it impossible to get married, but somewhat lowered the SMV and following Brendan MMV man you can attract.
I agree with Dalrock that your realistic self assessment is a great asset here for you. The girls who can’t find the right guy to want to marry them when they’re in their early and mid thirties are girls who expect to catch the same level of hotness guy for a marriage commitment that would have casual and fling sex with them. You sound like you’ve not done much alpha cock carouselling, so that should leave you less jaded.
Also, women who are game aware actually can help their man have more alpha emotional/sexual hotness. Dalrock made some good suggestions here — the default is he drives, you encourage and reward his leadership, you defer to him when you can, and has he quite insightfully said, you do pretty much everything vis a vis him (not your own career etc.) that would piss a strongly feminist woman off.
I guess I’m surrounded by too many schlubby lawyers (myself included).
I agree. I would never marry another lawyer. My lawyer colleagues are good for cynical jokes, but I honestly couldn’t imagine being married to one of them. The law requires toughness and hardens women — not attractive.
All the lawyers I know married between ages 28 and 32, usually to people the same age, and usually to fellow lawyers.
Could be a weird sample, or it could be the local market here in DC, but a good 20% or so of the women lawyers in my corporate law dept are 30+ and umarried (compared to around 10% of the men in this age group). None of the ones who *are* married are married to other lawyers, either. Again, could be an odd grouping I guess.
Doomed Harlot–
Dysfunctional feminist advice.
I require a degree of deference from any woman I’m serious about, and I get it. A degree.
Doug1, You must be very handsome!
Doomed Harlot Poseur:
Also, I want to highlight Paige’s comment at 5:16. The problem with all this traditionalist advice to women in their 30s about how to snag a man — by deferring and letting him take the lead, etc. — is that it begs the question of why on earth would a woman want a man on those terms?
Well, the anonymous comment was posted on a site known to be both friendly to women and culturally conservative. So it should hardly be a surprise that she is getting responses that are in line with certain philosophical positions, although that clearly rankles you.
Perhaps she’s also posted similar requests for advice elsewhere, and is going to compare the results? Perhaps she herself is culturally conservative and wishes advice from people like herself? Perhaps it’s all just an experiment for a psychology class? I don’t know, and neither do you. But not being a feminist, I have sufficient humility to simply address the questions asked, rather than try to bully her into some kind of position more to my liking. Perhaps you could try that too, some time?
I’m going to second the issue of geography. It’s trite but true in real estate to cry “Location, Location, Location”, but it is very true in the world of relations between men and women. I don’t know the anonymous woman’s location and it’s not my business.
However, were any woman who worked in the Northern Virginia / DC / PG County area, or the NYC metro area, to ask the questions she has asked, I’d suggest right up front trying to find a way to move. If a transfer is possible, look for it. If a lateral job shift is possible, go for it. I know, in the current economy, that moving jobs is not easy. But the odds are simply against a woman in her 30’s in areas where the ratio of single women to single men is as high as it is in places like NYC. It is not a coincidence that Roissy is in the DC area, in my opinion. Getting off of the coastal plains will put her into areas where more men are likely to want to marry, to be blunt.
All of this is predicated on her being somewhat mobile in terms of employment. It may mean moving away from family, and that can be very difficult to do, I know myself. But if one is going fishing, it’s best to do so where the fish are rather than where all the other fishermen are.
[D: Good point. Susan Walsh did a post on this basic topic a while back.]
@Doug1
I agree with most of what Dalrock said. However not about dismissing dating web sites. I’ve never used one but know people IRL and online who have. I think lots of early and mid thirties women do find marriage partners that way.
Thanks Doug1. I should clarify that I didn’t intend to dismiss dating web sites. I had those in mind as a traditional method when I wrote “in addition to the traditional methods”. My point later down was if she was looking to pull an otherwise eligible bachelor who had dropped out back into the dating game she won’t find them in the more traditional places women look for men.
ThirtySomething Single Woman,
I can only offer you one word of advice WRT finding a husband: don’t look for the right person; BE the right person! How do you know if you’re the right person? Well, ask yourself a question: if you were a guy, would you marry you? Would you make a good wife or not? Why or why not? Do you need to work on being a better listener? Do you need to work on your domestic skills? IOW, what, besides sex, do you have to offer a man? Why would a man mess up a good, happy bachelor live to marry you? Does he have a compelling REASON to do so?
Answer these questions and more with brutal honesty with yourself; i.e. answer them as you are, not how you wish to see yourself. Make a list of your shortcomings (i.e. what makes you bad wife material at the moment), then set about improving them; work on being the kind of gal a good husband would want.
The beauty of this is that you can control working on yourself. You cannot control when, where, how, or even if you’ll meet a man. You CAN control the work you put forth for self-improvement; you can control what you work on, when, how, etc. Every day you do this will put you closer to being PREPARED for the opportunity of meeting Mr. Right.
Another point I need to make is this: the farther past 30 a man gets, the less receptive to marriage he is. A famous movie line says that bachelorhood his habit forming. It is! I’m 49. I’ve never been married. Guess what? I no longer WANT to be! Why would I mess up life by bringing a woman into it?
One final caveat I’d mention is this: the man who’s looking to get married, the guy who’s serious about this, WILL observe you! I know, because I was once that guy. IOW, keep mindful of how you act, and how your actions could be interpreted. For example, if you’re seeking to be a SAHM and a prospective suitor saw you blow $1k or more on a Prada handbag, guess what? He just removed you from consideration! Why? Because such an expenditure shows carelessness with money. If you’re seeking a man with whom to have a traditional marriage and family, rest assured that he WILL look at how you handle money; after all, you’re going to be handling his! Good, marriage minded guys will always observe you quietly from a distance at first; if they see something that they don’t like, they’ll turn their attention elsewhere.
Those are my thoughts. Make SURE you bring something to the table, Little Missy! Give any prospective suitor a reason to marry you; how can you make his life better? To put it another way, could you make him WANT to surrender his freedom, his peace, his quiet, and ability to do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants? That’ll give you a clue as to what you need to work on. I wish you luck in your quest.
MarkyMark
To show you are serious about marriage, and not just looking for a place-filler in your plan, focus on marriage instead of the rest.
I think most serious people can understand and register the difference between someone interested in being married and a life of mutual support and someone who wants to wear a big white dress. A similar difference would be visible between someone who desires to be a mother and someone who wants to appease the biological clock.
If you talk about your friends getting married, and who paid what for flowers, a smart guy will run far, far away. If you talk about how nice it is to see your grandparents still together after fifty years, or to see happy settled couples, you’re showing what part you value.
@Butterfly Flower says:
…Like…Like…Like…Like…
Aren’t you the young lady looking for older serious guys? I suggest you eliminate the word “like” from your vocabulary and talk the way adults do.
Hmm…this is a dilemma.
What needs to be gauged is this: How big is the difference between the men that are approaching you now and the men that used to approach you when you were at your peak, say, in your early to mid-20’s? The greater the distance in attractiveness between these types of men, the greater the compromise you will need to make between what you want and what you can get.
This is probably the hardest thing for a woman to do. If you are in a situation where the majority of men approaching you are men you used to reject, then I don’t know if there is any help. It is not enough for you to simply seek your equivalent, since your past sexual history is probably with men fairly out of your league. It is a “taste” you may not be able to lose.
The issue here is not making yourself more attractive for marriage. The issue is how readily you can jettison the good and warm memories of your younger days with the hotter guys to put up with the vastly inferior man you are most likely to marry. In other words, if you are getting angry at the choices presented, then maybe you should stay single.
Get the marriage book by John T Molloy. He did a research project on what variables affect a woman getting married. He is not an academic. His consultancy business was results oriented. It is chock full of practical applications a woman can do to get married. No feminism or nonsense in there. No manosphere hate.
Lol, she should move to Silicon Valley a.k.a. “Man Jose”. There’s tons of beta guys here making six figures but can’t get a date… and the economy here is booming. I keep reading in the news that there’s been some kind of recession or something, but it hasn’t been obvious to me at all.
Marky Mark: “To put it another way, could you make him WANT to surrender his freedom, his peace, his quiet, and ability to do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants?”
Spot on! But to no avail if she does not know what a man sees a good deal for marriage and is not willing to make herself become a good deal, which I guess is the case with most single women in their thirties.
well, in response to paige’s post, I personally find my relationship very rewarding, and I prefer it to the alternative. I do not consider him my “boss” and I would think (or like to at least) that I am a good wife. I do my best to take care of him and care for him, as well as our young son.
That relationship — being a mother — I often find more socially burdensome (the judgement one gets as a mother is fierce), but being a wife comes easy. It could be due to the nature of our partnership.
One of the things that I like about my marriage is the companionship. I enjoy this immensely, and while I also am a loner and enjoy time alone, I do not think the single life would suit me — particularly not at this age. And the dating scene? Not my style.
Now, in relation to the top question in the post, I really feel that the advice is great. The number one advice I give women is to figure out their league and play in it. Seriously, be specific, but know where you can compromise too.
This is not “settling” but rather really evaluating your whole situation and context.
In addition, I want to echo the “set in their ways” thing. I think that this is *very* true. It’s not a problem, but you have *got* to know and accept what you are dealing with. A lot of women try to ‘change’ a man, and that includes his living habits.
One dear friend of mine *loves* tv. he’s obsessed with it. Another loves to hike. Hikes constantly. So, you see, here you are dealing with two men who have extensive hobbies/way of life, and you are either on board or off with this. I can live with either, honestly, so long as I can have a space with peace and quiet to myself. I would choose hiker over tv guy.
Both married women who are ok with their hobbies. One, the woman was into TV too, and a little overweight. Very cute, though, and funny. Very similar negative outlook on life, and a love of TV at night for hours! So, good fit. 🙂
The other — two smarties who like reading and poetry. She never hiked before, now they hike — all the time. It’s cool. She’s into cooking, so they take cooking classes together. He’s a pompous bombast sometimes, and she manages that beautifully. I don’t know how she does it, but man, she has that First Mate thing *down*. It’s because he’s actually very alpha, so i think it works in her favor in that way. But anyway. . . end of the day, both ladies over 30 had to really get into and/or accept the *lifestyle* of the man of their choosing.
And some you can live with, and some you can’t. And you won’t know, really, until you’re in it.
Sweet As: Yeah, doing things the guy likes really is a way to both show that you apprciate him and win his heart. The confirmed bachelor friend I was writing about told me about his GF buying an expensive espresso machine to her flat as soon as they started dating, so that he could have his beloved espresso also in her flat. Things like that, that if the guy did it might make a woman have doubts, because she feels that he is too eager to please.
Anonymous Reader,
You may want to re-think your self-proclaimed “humility.” It’s not consistent with calling someone else a poseur and claiming to know that person’s motivations (i.e. that I am somehow “rankled” by someone’s anonymous comment).
The funny part is I’d actually forgotten that this post started with a quote from some anonymous woman requesting for advice. I had to scroll back up through all the comments and the post to find it. You’re quite right that this woman who is requesting advice from a culturally conservative board has probably already accepted the premises of the traditionalist view of women and marriage.
I’m a bemused outsider, not rankled in the least. I am more like an anthropologist trying to understand the thought process behind some weird foreign culture. I can’t help but observe that the view of women and marriage put forward here — that women owe men some sort of deference for deigning to put up with them seems rather bleak and joyless for all concerned. I am not sure it makes me a bully to make comments along the lines that perhaps traditionalists should rethink their premises. Maybe you all will outbreed us, but will you have happy lives?
I’m a bemused outsider, not rankled in the least. I am more like an anthropologist trying to understand the thought process behind some weird foreign culture. I can’t help but observe that the view of women and marriage put forward here — that women owe men some sort of deference for deigning to put up with them seems rather bleak and joyless for all concerned. I am not sure it makes me a bully to make comments along the lines that perhaps traditionalists should rethink their premises. Maybe you all will outbreed us, but will you have happy lives?
A cultural anthropologist would not criticize the culture she is studying to its face. She would, in fact, make every effort to remain objective about that culture. Most cultural anthropologists actually believe that no one culture is superior to another or inherently good or bad, only different in the way it meets its goals and lives out its values. Which is basically bunk, IMHO. 🙂 I think most people would agree that Soviet culture, with its relentless man killing, suppression of any dissident thought or artistic expression, strangling of the work ethic and entrepreneurship, and establishment of the police state without rule of law might have been somewhat flawed, in retrospect. The Soviets did provide free and universal education, total employment, guaranteed housing and health care, and cheap transportation and goods (when available). Crime was also low. Alcoholism was unbelievably high.
In the case of the manosphere, a cultural anthropologist would spend time listening and then observing to see if some of the claims made – that women are sexually turned on by domination, that women seek dominant men, will actually fight other women to be in the circle of a dominant man, that women, at least some women, are happy deferring to their partners – might bear out. It is no less valid a thesis than any other one.
On last thing – happiness in and of itself is a bad goal for a society to have because too few people are actually able to see that strategies for short term happiness and long term happiness actually work against each other. People generally are happy when they are both good and productive. Not happy, perhaps, every day, because that is impossible, but overall.
True, I am not literally an anthropologist although there is a legitimate strain of anthropology that allows for criticism of the culture being studied. (I wrote a paper on this in anthropology 101 about a million years ago.)
I was raised in a patriarchal family in a patriarchal society, so I’ve spent my entire life looking at how the claims of patriarchy fail to match reality.
Doomed Harlot: Most women who marry traditional men are looking for a provider so they can stay home and raise their children. If they married in an egalitarian marriage they would most likely be expected to work outside the home. It is a trade-off. There are certainly draw-backs to marrying a traditionalist man, but there are draw backs to marrying an egalitarian as well.
Some women enjoy traditional gender roles more than others, so this must be considered.
Paige,
I totally understand the trade-off. But I don’t think it follows that even a traditionalist wife has to tolerate what you described.
Your description of your husband reminds me of my ex and my father. I learned the hard way that appeasement does not work with domineering men. Appeasement only encourages them to continue the demanding and domineering behavior. But the same domineering men will often back down in the face of a clear bold statement along the lines of, “This is not okay” or “I won’t put up with X anymore.” There is nothing wrong with being a good wife but you don’t have to tolerate disrespect just because someone’s paying your bills.
I was not describing my husband. My husband is fairly reasonable and considerate. Because of that doing the whole “submission” thing has only occasionally been a major annoyance (i.e. with money disagreements).
But a traditional woman who takes the traditional role seriously needs to be prepared for the demands that may be expected of her. If she isn’t then she should either not get married or make it plain and clear in the beginning that she will not be submissive.
That’s true. It’s good to know what you’re getting into. But I do think there should always be room to renegotiate. My mother did the whole, “I made my bed and now I have to lie in it,” routine and I thought she was being very unfair to herself. She should have said, “Look, Hub, I made a deal with you when I was young and it’s not working. I still love you, but we have to renegotiate how things work around here.”
@ Paige and DH:
There’s a difference between a man who is dominant and a man who is domineering.
A dominant man takes charge and leads. A domineering man is demanding, arrogant, churlish and unpleasant. A dominant man protects and leads those under his charge. A domineering man cracks the whip, pushes too hard and then complains when things don’t go his way. A dominant man commands respect by his mien and bearing, and his wife and children are safe and secure with him. A domineering man gets no true respect, only superficial submission, and his wife and children secretly hate and fear him behind his back.
It appears to me the manosphere does not advocate for male domineering. It seeks, and celebrates, male dominance.
I’m going to derail this towards the more frivolous.
30 yr old lady- GO TO HOME DEPOT.
I am currently renovating my entire house by hand, including fixing old furniture, power sanding, painting etc etc and I have made many trips to the Home Depot. I always leave with my market value a little inflated.
It is a perfect place to meet men, especially manly men who know how to fix things. And it is very easy to strike up a conversation since, as a woman, you need advice on the best wood-glue, or power saw or whatever. Further, it is still a place heavily populated by men, so it does kinda feel like you are a hen in a fox house 😉
Some common sense: Don’t go during working hours, as you probably want a man with a white collar job. Go during lunch, after work, or weekends.
Married or single, it’s a good place to go for a little ego boost.
DH, it sounds like you mother had a very unfulfilling life raising you. My regrets to her experience.
To the commenter seeking advice on how to assess her SMV/MMV:
Go here for a detailed and fairly assessment of your appearance and personality traits relevant for one night stands. Your spot on the traditional 1-10 scale will match up with the groupings/descriptions at the end.
http://roissy.wordpress.com/dating-market-value-test-for-women/
Then go here to get an adjustment for LTR value based on men’s perception of your likely loyalty.
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/07/mailvox-hierarchy-of-female.html
The beta orbiter method is probably a bit harsh, as she by definition has higher value than they do or they wouldn’t be orbiting. Still, it’s a good wakeup call, as they are by defnition men who are interested in her and willing to be patient with whatever bad behavior led to her being unsuitable for marriage when she was at her peak. Certainly if she’s looking for a non traditional egalitarian Marriage 2.0 type of marriage, a beta orbiter isn’t far wrong. If she wants a marriage that will actually work, the good news is she can do a little better, the bad news is she’ll have to work at that marriage, at least on occasion as hard as Paige described. TANSTAAFL.
@Paige- You are right. Did you marry a traditional man or an egalitarian man? I married an egalitarian man who was pretending (or thought the only option) was to be an egalitarian man. Thankfully, I am a traditional woman (to an extent) so it worked out.
I think even egalitarian men appreciate a traditional woman. A traditional woman can be a great asset. A scene from Big Love has always stuck in my head- where the middle wife who was raised in a rural compound always got stuck fixing the appliances. Being traditional is not just cooking and cleaning and looking nice, those women get down and dirty.
…and this whole SWPL, eco-friendly, DYI, handmade, authentic, organic, sustainable bullshit is just women trying to find a way to be sweet little housewives and make pretty little things for their house. It’s all so disingenuous. Such a big part of female SWPL-ness is homemaker related. Lots of sewing, canning, and painting going on in those circles…..
Feminism has made a whole 360. We got freedom. And we want to bake, goddamn it.
Flavia- My husband is pretty traditional but with enough “beta” to make him mostly tolerable. :p
I wrote something about how housewifery has changed a few months ago:
http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/housewife-culture-2-0/
Thank you, Dan. She did have a rough go of it, as did many women of her era, and I appreciate your good wishes on her behalf. She was and is a really great mother, and I think she deserved better.
Flavia, I like baking! And that means . . . .what? My love of cookie dough means I secretly want to be dominated?
DH, secretly, yes 😉
Hmmm. Sounds kinky!
On last thing – happiness in and of itself is a bad goal for a society to have because too few people are actually able to see that strategies for short term happiness and long term happiness actually work against each other. People generally are happy when they are both good and productive. Not happy, perhaps, every day, because that is impossible, but overall.
Grerp,
I would have been confused about this a week ago. Then I read Mortimer Adler’s Ten Philosophical Mistakes. Consider the phrase “the pursuit of happiness.” What does it mean?
Adler makes the point that we have confused emotional (psychological) happiness with ethical happiness. The former is perhaps best identified as “contentment.” The latter is a state derived from living in accord with that which is ACTUALLY good for us, not just what we think is good for us. Ethical happiness can be judged for no living person, and can be obtained by no living person. We can each live in accord with ethically good things, but can only be judged afterwards. (Not surprisingly, Adler was an Aristotelian and a Thomist, and converted at the end of his life to Catholicism.)
SO EVERY society MUST allow human “the pursuit of happiness,” understood as the chance to live in accord with that which is actually good for us.
@detinennui32
Your explanation of the difference between dominant and domineering is on target and the closest I have seen to my view. No wonder it sounded so intelligent.
I am not really seeing the difference between domineering and dominant. By definition, automatically assuming the right to “lead” your wife just because you’re a dude is the height of arrogance. Just because you smile when you’re running her life doesn’t change the fact that you are calling the shots over someone else in her own home.
The part about being safe-and-secure is interesting. That is, I suspect, the motivation of traditionalist women. It’s not so much that women, even traditionalist women, love having their will overriden by their husbands. It’s that they worry a lot about safety and they think that somehow a dominant husband will keep them more safe. It’s the old human tendency to trade dignity and freedom for security. It’s a life ruled by fear.
Doomed Harlot–
It’s the biological natural order of things, the vast majority of the time.
HOWEVER.
Pisses me off. I did not push send.
Doomed Harlot, I am just pointing out the irony. All these women (well actually not “all these women”, but a tiny number of elite and disruptive women who held too much power) harping on about freedom and equality and not being able to pursue happiness and fulfill their lifelong dreams because they were chained to that Fucking Kitchen!! Slaving away, baking, cleaning, fixing furniture, sewing, tending to the kids….
All right, so now women, as far as biology can go, have total equality (probably “more” equality than men) and what do so many of these crunchy vegan rah rah We Can Do It womyn want to do? Bake!! Sew!! Crotchet!!
It’s just a little funny. So much bellyaching and biology reigns supreme. We are her bitch.
Oh, I know you were a little bit facetious, Flavia. But the ideas underlying your humor are a bit off. The issue isn’t that Baking is Bad; the problem is when Baking is Your Destiny because you don’t have other options.
…and the humor is that now with myriad options many women gravitate towards the baking.
Yes, it’s humorous.
But on the serious side, most women aren’t taking to baking, that’s a small minority. Most women that I know can barely cook. Most were pushed to focus on their studies to the exclusion of everything else.
TLIMS: That’s nonsense. I learnt how to cook while studying 50-60 hours a week at law school, exercising 3 times a week and going out partying 2-3 times a week.
Yep, women gravitate towards baking . . . and knitting, and gardening, and ice hockey and law and politics and business.
@Lavazza
That’s wonderful that you learned to cook. I’ve also had to learn to cook as an adult while working, going to school, etc..
But I’m not sure which part you’re referring to as nonsense. ?
Is it that a lot of women that I know don’t know how to cook and weren’t taught to?
Well, they weren’t. But, of course, they can learn to if they so wish.
Isn’t it a small subset of modern women in the States who are baking, canning, sewing or am I wrong to think it’s a minority?
@DH
Yep, women gravitate towards baking
I’m definitely not where you are because where I’m at, the women don’t gravitate towards baking but ….. they do gravitate towards baked goods! lol
ha ha
TLIMS:
“Most women that I know can barely cook. Most were pushed to focus on their studies to the exclusion of everything else.”
Most guys I know are good or excellent cooks. Most learned how to cook at home during their late teens and/or after leaving home to study in their early twenties.
I am like my guy friends. You are not like your girl friends.
What I meant too say is that internal or external pressure to perform academically is not the biggest cause or correlation I see relating to inadequate prowess in cooking.
Lack of interest, no love for food, laziness or fear of not doing it right would be my guesses why a lot of people are bad at cooking. Most people who like cooking are sensual, passionate, pleasure seeking people.
@Lavazza
Oh, I see what you mean.
Of course you’re right, but some women from the previous generation gave their daughters that exact message.
I remember while growing up- some girls around me were being told that they didn’t need to learn to cook well or clean if they got an education, they can always hire someone for those. Cooking was for the less educated and mothers stopped passing on this skill.
I mean how did we (btw, I’m female) end up having to learn to cook on our own from cookbooks and TV shows?
ElectricAngel – this is more or less what I was getting at. Thanks for shedding that light on the idea of “the pursuit of happiness.”
I taught myself how to cook…and how to sew and how to garden. My mother tried to teach me, but she went back to school when I was 10, and she was busy and my sister and I were lazy and fought learning anything.
When I was a junior in high school and planning my senior year, my guidance counselor suggested Home Ec. I thought she was totally sexist – I actually felt insulted – and instead signed up for Calculus, Physics, and Physiology. She was right, though. I have never used calculus or physics post-school. I could have learned something practical I would have used in Home Ec. I also wish I would have taken wood shop, but everyone thought that was just for burnouts. My cousin did wood shop and alternative education, and now he makes a good living as a master craftsman/carpenter.
speaking of men and women cooking, another good reason to loathe Hanna Rosin: http://www.doublex.com/section/life/rise-kitchen-bitch
Pingback: If It Looks Like A Duck And Quacks Like A Duck » Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Technology
Doomed Harlot–
God, what are you, a feminist lawyer bitch or something? Yuck.
Yep, Paul, it’s just great when feminists like Rosin and Tsing-Loh start singing hymns of praise about the oh-so-gender-role-denying men in their lives by describing them as a kitchen bitches.
Feminism is such a huge lie, really. Liars, liars, liars.
Doomed Poseur Harlot
Anonymous Reader,
You may want to re-think your self-proclaimed “humility.” It’s not consistent with calling someone else a poseur and claiming to know that person’s motivations (i.e. that I am somehow “rankled” by someone’s anonymous comment).
I am humble enough to answer a question put to me to the best of my ability. Case in point, I offered advise to the anonymous woman on how to do what she wants to do. You, on the other hand, chose to chide her for what she wants to do.
In other words, you display the usual feminist arrogance on the issue of choices: you’re all in favor of “choice”, so long as the right “choice” is made. What is the “right choice”? Why, whatever feminist dogma holds, of course. The idea that a woman might choose something you don’t want apparently gets some part of your ego riled up.
I’m humble towards people who are honestly seeking knowledge. Arrogant feminists do not as a rule engage in that process, you are generally too busy telling people what to do to spend any time helping them to achieve their goals, rather than your goals.
The funny part is I’d actually forgotten that this post started with a quote from some anonymous woman requesting for advice. I had to scroll back up through all the comments and the post to find it. You’re quite right that this woman who is requesting advice from a culturally conservative board has probably already accepted the premises of the traditionalist view of women and marriage.
So perhaps you can take away from this experience the idea that context matters, and that assuming you know it all (whatever “it” may be) can lead to a negative outcome?
I’m a bemused outsider, not rankled in the least. I am more like an anthropologist trying to understand the thought process behind some weird foreign culture.
Your rationalization hamster may believe that. But your habit of telling people they are wrong in their beliefs reveals the truth: you are an advocate for your own ideology, the dominant ideology of current culture. To this observer, it appears you cannot abide the idea that there could be anywhere, any tiny shred of anti-feminist thought.
I can’t help but observe that the view of women and marriage put forward here — that women owe men some sort of deference for deigning to put up with them seems rather bleak and joyless for all concerned.
I will speculate that you still believe men and women are the same, except women can have babies and men cannot. That’s pure speculation on my part, but since it is one of the underlying premises of feminism, it seems reasonable. However, this belief is simply wrong. It is disproven on a regular basis by science; women’s brains are physically different from men’s brains, women’s fight-or-flight reactions are almost always different from men’s (and that is a whole posting in itself), muscle mass and endurance differences, color sense differences, hearing range differences, and so forth.
Given the reality of human biology that resulted from millennia of evolution, there is “programming” in men and women at the hindbrain levels that affects us unconsciously. We can overcome some of that programming to some extent, else civilization above the tribal level would be impossible. But some of that programming involving mating cannot really be overriden — attempts to ignore it result in unhappiness for both men and women, absent a lot of conscious work.
This is my long winded way of saying that on average, for the “typical” man and woman, both of them will be happier and better off if he is perceived as the leader of the family. Every couple has to work out their own details, of course. Who does the taxes? Probably whomever is better at it…but the “captain/first officer” model seems to work quite well, for most people.
There are outliers, in the statistical sense, for whom other arrangements are better. An analogy would be, oh, a food allergy. Someone allergic to pecans better not chomp down on pralines, for example, or pecan pie. But on average, to a majority, such things are treats, not threats.
I am not sure it makes me a bully to make comments along the lines that perhaps traditionalists should rethink their premises.
Trotting out a tired feminist trope that was old 20 years ago is really not useful to the anonymous woman in question, in my opinion. Given the fact that feminist models for women have spread wider in the culture at the exact same time that women have expressed less and less happiness, it might be time for you to question your premises.
Maybe you all will outbreed us, but will you have happy lives?
For what definition of happiness? There’s more to life than toys. He who dies with the most toys might “win”, but he’s still dead.
Forgot to add to Doomed Poseur Harlot:
I call you a poseur, because you are one by your own admission. In a previous thread I challenged you to tell exactly where your sexual history would make you a harlot, outside of Saudi Arabia. And I pointed out that your attempt to “own” the term is simply magical thinking — the notion that somehow by altering the semantic value of a symbol, the referent would be changed, i.e. that if “slut” or “harlot” were devalued, there would be no more slut shaming in the larger culture.
Now that I know you are an attorney, your magical thinking makes more sense, because in your world, changing words actually changes some part of reality. Of course, that is only true because big, strong men with guns (and yes, it’s men…) are prepared to go out and make those changes “true” by force if need be. However, away from the arena of the legal system, playing with words does not affect reality.
If words such as “slut”, “harlot”, etc. were actually rendered null and void, some new term would be coined in short order to refer to “woman who has had so many sex partners as to make her a large risk to any man in an LTR/marriage”.
And women would use that term in a shaming way far more than men, just as is the case now. You can pretend to be a “harlot” all you want, just as little girls play princess. In both cases, it is just a pose.
Pingback: Administration and Linkfest. | Dark Brightness
Pingback: Linkage is Good for You: Close-Up Edition
Dalrock,
Feel free to remove this from this thread if you want. I was wondering if you could do another reader advice post for me?
A guy that I work with and I have been good friends for a while, since before his marriage went sour. (I’m single, btw). There was kind of a mini-crush thing going on there, but those happen regardless and don’t mean anything, plus I am not stupid enough to act on them anyway (my hamster is flabby from lack of exercise). Recently, his marriage went south for several reasons which I won’t list but it involves his wife’s behavior as an average strong-hamster woman. After that happened, he kept suggesting that he wanted more from me than just a work friendship. I can pick up hints but I kept sending the message that I’m not a home-wrecker nor an adulterer. I also pulled the friendship back to work-related things.
Recently, he just sent me a strong message that he might be leaving his wife and wants to know if I would, er, get physical. I already plan on telling him absolutely not, but I want to include stuff that would help him with his marriage. I plan on MMSL, but is there anything (from a guy’s perspective) that would be most helpful in this situation?
Recently, he just sent me a strong message that he might be leaving his wife and wants to know if I would, er, get physical. I already plan on telling him absolutely not, but I want to include stuff that would help him with his marriage. I plan on MMSL, but is there anything (from a guy’s perspective) that would be most helpful in this situation?
I’m not a guy but I would say Athol’s blog. Married Man sex live, if that doesn’t help him nothing will. He might no pay attention though, given that you are going to reject him, but maybe don’t say anything sent a first message with the blog. He will read it at least and he might take the hint, if he asks you then tell him that you are not a homewrecker…He should take the hint. That would be at least what I would do.
Helvetica,
Good call on keeping your boundaries. As for how to introduce him to game, etc, I think you are right to start with MMSL. If there weren’t a boundaries issue I would say get him a copy of the book. Online the post about Dave from Hawaii at Roissy’s site should be great for providing the “aha!” moment, so you might want to have him start there. Badger is another marriage friendly blogger who I might direct him to in addition to Athol Kay. All of these links are on this page: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/game-resources-for-marriage/
Helvetica,
Agree with Dalrock. You don’t need a rebound relationship. If he can’t keep it friendly, cut him dead.
Keep your boundaries and integrity.
Everyone can pursue their own dreams and desires. The D&D may not be achieved, but they can be pursued.
The thing I fail to understand is why men would seek marriage. I understand why women want marriage, but what benefits does it confer on men?
The costs and risks of marriage, for men, are very well known. Are there benefits that override the negatives?
Cooking and cleaning can be performed by men, or they can be subcontracted. Women aren’t needed for these purposes.
Companionship can be found in church, voluntary associations, friendship, or family of origin.
Romance is overrated, but can easily be secured outside marriage.
Marriage, I guess, is okay for those who want it. But why would anyone wqnt it?
@grerp
“but everyone thought that was just for burnouts. ”
LOL. There’s a term I haven’t heard in a while.
@harlot
You ask why it would be his “right” to lead, but it’s more of a burden and obligation. Because if he doesn’t, most women will lose attraction and leave him (or, at a minimum, stop having sex with him and wish they were with someone else). Maybe not you, but most. I’m sure it’s just because of the patriarchy, though.
Pingback: How to encourage a husband to show more leadership. | Dalrock
Ugh I can’t believe that this article still focuses a little on the looking for “Mr. Perfect”, the Brad Pitt type… Jesus women GET OVER IT, JUST GET OVER IT!!!!! There is no effin such thing as “Mr. Perfect” there isn’t, it’s just plain and simple FACT nobody in the whole universe is “perfect” so get that out of your heads period. Mr. Perfect is an effin fantasy that women got from some dumb a** novel or child’s book when they were kids and they took literally and it amazes so many men how the “Mr. Perfect” trips up so many single women. Women don’t seem to get that men constantly laugh AT women not with you but AT you when single women bring up the “Mr. Perfect” conversation and men are like what the eff ever, she’s obviously in LA LA land and needs bitc*ed slapped into reality!! Also women get effin over the whole he must no matter what he just must be the minimum 6′ tall. BS, that’s complete and utter BS… Single women are making dating so hard on themselves and dating IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!! Single women make dating like this whole it needs to be SOOOO unbelievably hard. Yes dating is hard to find the right person to be with but it’s no ROCKET SCIENCE!!
Also women’s demand list that’s out of control… The you must be this, you must be that etc… Whatever… BS NO I MUST NOT!!! What then are you bringing to the table???? Women need to quit demanding and they will get a hell of a lot better results. Don’t women get that DEMANDS are insulting and such a turnoff for men. When men see the women with the big a** list of DEMANDS men shutter and are like scr*w her no matter how hot she is men will run so fast from her. I’m not saying all lists (lists within reason) (short lists) are OK but the ones that have the “never ending list” or the “lists” that are a whole page or more buh bye!!! Also the women that refuse to open their minds up and it’s their must list but he should be open minded…. No wonder she’s always single, or in constant always really short term relationships.
Also women need to get over there he must be tall, dark, blue eyes, perfect teeth. Um yeah good look with that…. Never ever will happen getting that “total match” and the “perfect teeth” thing is total BS so now she expects him to never eat, drink or anything that stains his teeth??? Stupid BS list… Most of these women that have these utter complete BS list, is just that just complete and utter BS and the women that always continues to “hold out” cause she has that “list” she wont ever let go and is looking for “him” she’s not only stupid but will always be single or the one that is constantly in the really short term relationships going from man to man to man to man to man.. Damn it must get so damn old constantly banging your head against the wall cause she’s looking for that “perfect” that never exists.
A lot of these women that these enormous “lists” are usually so miserable with themselves and I think men have to ask is she really worth all that trouble.
A constructive article I read a minute ago and summarizes helping single women over 30 who have had other concerns or life events which may have left “husband hunting before 30” off their list of priorities.
1. Resolve to make your personal life a priority. A woman who wants a partner for life needs to be as directed in her romantic pursuits as she is about her career, her workout routine, or her skin care.
2. Visualize your marital future. Successful people rarely achieve their goals without first imagining their ability to succeed.
3. Remove any obstacles that have kept you single. To isolate what impediments may have contributed to your singleness, fill in the blank: I believe I’m still single because ____.
4.Stand tall. Admitting that you’d like to get married does not signal an affliction; it’s merely a defensible life goal.
5.Reserve judgment. Don’t jump to hasty negative conclusions about new men you meet.
6.Get off the road if it isn’t taking you where you need to go. Today you are dating for a reason, not for fun.
7. Live with gratitude. The best way to get more out of life is to appreciate fully the one you have.
The article was based on a book called “How to Get Married After 35″… I’m about to be 32 and I’m using it.
Paige: As for getting a man: Simple. Go to a comicon convention dressed as Wonder Woman.
Priceless! And just about guaranteed to work! Or if comics aren’t your thing, invest in a Startrek uniform and a pair of Vulcan ears, and start hitting the conventions.
Just remember: Its not settling if you truly cannot do any better.
I think also men are dam* tired of so many of these single women that think it’s all ok to constantly go around and sleep with 100’s or 1000’s of men and think they are just exploring. After a certain number of men women become those throw around slu*s and it’s not just exploring anymore basically with a lot of the women that never settle are are always hooking up with another man every night or every other night are basically free prostitutes. Women that don’t settle seems to always give BS excuse, but after awhile into like their late 20’s or early 30’s it’s time for women to get serious, time to get into real relationships. After women get into their real late 20’s especially more in their early 30’s they become more of a laughing stock. Also it’s interesting how so many women anymore I think, think that getting divorced is “cool”, especially the ones that get divorced just because they are “bored”. Don’t women realize that getting divorced especially just cause they don’t want to work on the marriage or just “bored” is hugely frowned upon. It’s not “cool”, it’s not even funny, there should be no celebration for any divorce only unless it was obviously abusive, or cheating. Abuse or cheating are the ONLY reasons to EVER get divorced. If there is no Abuse or Cheating then stay the he** married, yes marriages is hard, but so is everything in life. Marriage you have to constantly work at it…
Pingback: Tells for girls. | Dark Brightness
I am 56 and honestly don’t know if I want to remarry, but I do have advice for younger women. Forget ‘game’ and go for warmth, decency, and kindness. Also, be sweet, cheerful, and upbeat. Smile. Be feminine.,Get rid of bitterness-it not only drives men off but will make you sick inside.I am not just offering platitudes. I have never lacked male compnw
I am a single woman of 32 years of age. I have a very kind heart and am attractive, very active and fit (yoga instructor), good career, smarts, good friends, lots of hobbies to keep me fulfilled. My problem in the past has not been that I have been too picky, it’s that I have not been picky enough. I lacked confidence and would take any guy who showed interest. I have been in several relationships that have resulted in heart break for me. Guys with drinking or substance abuse problems, guys with anger problems…etc. I ultimately broke up with them after trying my best. I want a relationship for the long haul but none of them seemed to care to work with me.
I took a couple years off from dating anyone to work on my self-confidence. It has done wonders for me. Now I am actively trying to date again, and I am using much more discretion. I am not too picky, but I am not dating desperately like I did in the past either.
I want to say there is a whole other population of women out there that are still single in their thirties. It’s the girl that was not picky enough and lacked confidence in her twenties. She probably took what she thought she deserved at the time, while most of the wonderful men in her age group met and married their wives.
I think a great population of men to date may be the divorced men who married in their twenties to women who didn’t fully appreciate them. That’s just my opinion. God will I ever fully appreciate the guy who treats me right. He might not be the best-looking guy, he will have a job and teeth. I hope he has some interests of his own and I find him attractive and fun to be around. But mostly I just hope he is ready for a relationship full of fun, respect, communication and good love. Asking too much? I don’t think so.
@ ciji 32:
Your comment of earlier today was interesting. If you don’t mind my doing so, I’d like to point out a couple of things that might help you, if you are looking for advice on marriage and finding a good partner. Your comment shows that you have a small amount of understanding on male-female relationships. But with due respect, you have much to learn. I submit that you don’t understand fully how male-female relationships work.
I”ll take the first part of your story at face value and accept that you weren’t “picky enough”. You chose men who were never going to marry you. They were in it with you for the sole purpose of getting sex by any means necessary. This is the male imperative — to spread seed as far and wide as possible. They were willing to “work with” you so long as the sex continued to flow effortlessly and with a minimum of obligation.
You are also drawn to douchebags. How do I know this? By your own admission, you dated “Guys with drinking or substance abuse problems, guys with anger problems…etc.” I will be willing to bet that all the men you dated were supremely confident, were better than average looking, and gamed you pretty hard.
The problem was not your lack of confidence. Nearly every young woman in her 20s can get anything she wants in a man. Women in their 20s have immense power in the sexual marketplace. They have a near stranglehold on 90%+ of all the power.
The problem was your attraction to men who are not suited to relationships. Perhaps you have fixed this now, but I suspect it has little to do with confidence and much more to do with changing the venues you inhabit, the people you associate with and the media you consume.
If you are 32 years old and unmarried, you need to lower your standards. A lot. And “picky” is not what I would recommend. You need to discern between the men who will pump & dump you, and the men who will be relationship material. To find the latter, you will have to widen your filters, not narrow them. You will also need to contribute on an equal footing financially. Don’t expect to be wined and dined at fancy restaurants, or taken for expensive entertainment.
And he does not want “fun, respect, or communication”. Men are attracted to looks and kind/pleasant demeanor. That will generate attraction. But you need to offer more than that. Can you cook? Can you keep a house? Will you be kind and pleasant to him? What do you have to offer him other than your body and your communications skills? Any man worth his salt will be examining you to ask not what he can do for you, but what you can do for him.
You don’t need confidence. You need to look good, be nice, widen your attraction filters, and offer him something other than your body.
Good luck.
@ ciji:
You might benefit from reading this:
Calibrating Attraction by Controlling the Venue
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/calibrating-attraction-by-controlling-the-venue/
@ ciji:
I glossed over the “good career” part. What do you do? How much time do you spend at it? Do you think the time you spend at work might be keeping you from finding a quality man?
“I want to say there is a whole other population of women out there that are still single in their thirties. It’s the girl that was not picky enough and lacked confidence in her twenties. She probably took what she thought she deserved at the time, while most of the wonderful men in her age group met and married their wives.”
No. ciji32, you are proceeding from a false assumption those women wanted to get married. They did not want marriage; they wanted careers and sex with hot, sexy men.
Those single 30-something women did not lack confidence. They had all the confidence in the world. They slept with the hot men who were attractive to them and made them tingle. Then those single women slammed up against 30 and realized they wasted the best most fertile years of their lives on douchebags. Those women took the hot sexy men because those women thought they deserved those hot sexy men, and wanted those men — for the sex.
Hi deti, thanks for all your advice and what not. Just to let you know, that was not really the type of guy I have dated. As a matter-of-fact, my longest term relationships have been with guys who are not in great financial standings, overweight, balding, divorced, some still live with their parents. I have had the issue of codependency. I was the care taker, while they lost respect for me. My last long-term partner asked me to move into his place about a year in, as soon as I did he quit his job and asked me to pay for his mortgage. Which I did unfortunately for 4 months before I moved out, because he was yelling at me and telling me what I could or couldn’t do with my money. We had a few serious conversations about going to counseling, he did not want to. If anything, I was doing way too much for the relationship while the guys did way to little.
I honestly can’t really say what caused me to be attracted to some guys I dated, besides that I saw their potential. They all had good qualitites too. And I am dating with a very open mind still. Just recognizing I deserve a guy who treats me as an equal now. That’s a start. I never mentioned anything about me not treating them as an equal. Nor only going for the hot and sexy men. That’s just not me at all. Sorry I gave you that impression.
Just one more thought too, I really am not fretting about wasted time. It’s all part of my life’s journey. And I have learned and grown a great deal from each experience. I live a happy life, I don’t think of myself as past expiration. That’s just dreadful. I am good person and have always thought if I do end up in the right place I will make a great partner and mother, even if the children are adopted. Anyway, thanks again deti, it’s kind of you to try to help fix my problem. Although I’d like a partner, I ultimately think it’s not really a problem for me to be where I am in my life right now. I think it would suck to wake up everyday and think, “what is wrong with me, I’ve wasted all this time, I hate my life…etc.” I’m sure that wouldn’t help me get a date either. Peace.
ciji:
The men you dated might have been “not in great financial standings, overweight, balding, divorced, some still live with their parents”, but they were still douchebags. They might not have been hot, sexy men, but they were still douchebags. You, as a codependent, saw men who you thought you could fix up, make them just the way you want them to be, and then they will see all the things you do for them and they will love you. Doesn’t work that way.
I still think your thinking on this is off. A woman will not respect a man who treats her as an equal. What you need is a man you can look up to and be attracted to. If you have this, you can respect him. You won’t stay with a man you don’t respect. And you don’t want a man who treats you as an equal. Male-female relationships work best when she submits to his dominant frame. If you don’t submit to him, you won’t respect him and you won’t stay with him.
“I honestly can’t really say what caused me to be attracted to some guys I dated, besides that I saw their potential.”
This is typical of women. They usually don’t know why they find particular kinds of men attractive. But, “potential” doesn’t cut it if they are “not in good financial standing” or “still live with their parents” for marriage material. Also, all women want hot, sexy men. Let’s at least be honest about that.
Hi deti, why do you think you know what is best for me?
ciji:
I don’t know what’s best for you. Given your track record with men and your belief that your problem was a lack of confidence and selectivity, you apparently are a bit hazy on what’s best for you as well. I simply take what I know and have learned generally about women and intergender relationships, and apply it to the facts you’ve set out.
You posted here, I responded to it. You can take what I say or leave it. It’s entirely up to you.
ciji32: Since your own “smarts” and your “good friends” advice and guidance has yielded awful results in the “best for you” department, you might be wise trying something totally new.
Oh deti, you should have stopped the second her hamster started. ciji is not interested in changing, she’s just trying to seek confirmation that she’s still a good ‘deal’ and thus worthy of the futile investment of marriage with her.
Women over 30 are not marriage material, whether or not they engaged in massive sluttery or not. Best be up front with her and spare yourself the hand whinging next time.
Yikes. Sorry I posted on this forum. My mistake. Best to all of you.
If a woman can accept the truth and be introspective, she can prove that she is the exception to the rule. But so very few are willing to swallow the bitter Red Pill for Women.
Don’t worry, I’m sure there are far more places to gain advice on how to procure a beta shlub and marry him before your biological clock ticks over 12. Good luck to you and your future ex-husband.
ciji32: You have better odds for a LTR where you still support yourself and you don’t have any kids. But you will have to be very lucky to get a guy that you are attracted to and who still wants to marry you, support you and have kids with you.
A discussion of the unmarriageable evangelical american princess… worth a look:
http://cmd-n.org/2012/05/01/evangelical-american-princess
Ok this word is getting so dam* old and abused for so many men. The word of “settling”. Why is it so many women these days think “SETTLING” is SUCH a BAD WORD????? Do a lot of women these days just don’t get the word “settling” or actually do they think if they are this ULTRA ULTRA PICKY they will seriously get this imaginary fantasy god like god that meets EVERY SINGLE “REQUIREMENT” ON HER LIST???? Now seriously COMMON on WOMEN, SERIOUSLY GET INTO REALITY!!!!!!! When men say ” settle” down we by no means say just settle for any shlump but what pi**es men off so much is women think that by holding out and saying NO TO EVERY SINGLE GUY THAT THERE WILL BE THIS FANTASY GOD LIKE GUY THAT’S GOING TO MAGICALLY APPEAR ( as is he’s going to be the oh so demanding 6′ ++ guy, have millions upon millions of dollars, have this “perfect life” and never have a worry in life, and you can just sit on your a** all day every day and do nothing). Thats such COMPLETE BS, SUCH NOT REALITY!!! Reality is a JOB, he’s probably not going to be 6′ +++, he’s not going to have UNLIMITED MONEY, he’s going to WORK, LIFE ISN’T ALL ABOUT PARTY PARTY PARTY, and you yourself are most likely going to have your own job as well. Younger Women these days have got to GET OVER THOSE BS SO CALLED “REALITY” SHOWS. THEY AREN’T “REALITY” THEY ARE MADE UP BS, SH*T*Y TV SHOWS. Technology also has made a lot of young women SO DELUSIONAL and makes them think holding out for EVER makes them more desirable. Want to know a clue women, that constant holding out, saying no to every guy, thinking there is this magical “fantasy” god like guy is such a TURNOFF to men that men run from women with those delusional “fantasies”.
Earl, the girls are holding out for the magic 6/6 combo (6 feet/6 figures). News flash, ladies, there aren’t enough to go around.
Most men can’t ever make 6 figures and of those who do, it usually takes them til their 40s to get there. If they’re still single by then, either they’re hopelessly undesireable for some other reason, or they never wanted to marry in the first place, or they have long ago sadly given up.
And of course there’s nothing you can do about your height. It works both ways too: I’m 6’3′ myself, and I’ve actually been rejected as “too tall” on one occasion (that I know about). Sheesh. The Arab proverb is right: Women want toasted ice.
There are some very good comments here!
I am a married woman in my early 30s. I just want to reiterate, again, that I think the word ‘settling’ is not the best choice of words. When I went about looking for my now husband, I just took an honest look at myself, and what I was willing to settle for/NOT settle for. This is the easiest thing to say, but hardest thing to do-for years I was trapped in the mentality of finding someone who met all my ‘checklist’ criteria…..but slowly, over years and years I whittled my checklist into something much more realistic and attainable……
What it takes, basically, is admitting that you are not perfect yourself, and admitting your own imperfections, and what you can expect to get as a result. That may sound harsh, but it is true.
For example, I am fairly lean and in shape-yet love to eat. So yes, I do have a little belly-flat, but definitely not very defined. So, is it really fair for me to demand a guy with a six pack, perfect body, works out three times daily? Of course not! Rather, I should set a goal for a guy who is lean, generally takes care of himself-but will split creme brulee with me and not care about a having a tiny belly pouch. However, I am a professional, and decided I want to be married to a professional also-I don’t feel there is anything wrong with this, I just picked and chose what I did and did not want.
Btw, you don’t always have to chose between marriage vs career-it does help to have a husband in the same career field if you work a lot in my opinion.
Now between career and motherhood-I have not figured that one out yet, I will get back to you when I do. =)
Anyway, I digress. The ‘abs’ example, though silly, is just one example-you must access looks, intelligence, social graces, financial stability, political views, what you can and cannot put you with. I realized a long time ago that I cannot be with a man if they laugh a certain way….odd, I know, but forcing myself to be honest about it did eliminate certain people for sure.
Hope this helps, though it’s probably not any more insightful than other comments. Good luck! I hope you find true love =)
Ugh the whole women being so overly obsessed with men’s “height” thing is so out of control these days!!! I think women need to be a lot more quiet about the constant complaining bitch*ing about men’s “height”. The whole complaining about he need to be this “tall” she demands to be this ultra specific “height” or the “he’s not tall enough” gawww just SHUT up already. I think women these days need to learn it’s sooo RUDE to bit*h, complain and be all OBSESSED about men’s height. Just like women have the rule where men shouldn’t ask women about their weight or age, same should go for men’s height for women. Just like women constantly say who cares about her age or weight, should be the same for women to realize it’s extremely RUDE to complain, bit*h, snicker about men’s height… Just SHUT UP about men’s HEIGHT, if he’s 5’8″, 5’9″, 5’10” so effin what… Open your minds about men’s height and STOP already with the height complaining!!! There are a lot more men in the 5’8’s, 5’9’s, 5’10 men then 6′ and 6++ men. A lot of women are so limiting themselves with their strict “height requirements”.
Honestly I think its gross to date an older men…you men come here saying how a man should be older, actually did you know us woman want children too, and its proven fact that men also go through biological clock ticking as well…autism is high in children because of older fathers! If you do a google search or research there are many doctors warning men over 40 have a higher chance of passing down autism, dwarfism, birth defects and other problems to the child…it doesn’t matter how young the woman is…this is from the man’s sperm not the womans eggs! Again…as woman try so hard to look younger and beautiful it makes sense for her to date a man at least 3 to 5 years younger as woman also live longer by 7 years generally of the men her own age…or date someone your own age…men are pedophilies always looking for the baby girl right out of the womb! Its actually quiet dangerous having children with older men, even if you are a younger woman…the risks would be higher as if a woman was 45-50 having a baby..and still many 48 year old woman have healthy babies…i know so many but again…risks are there for men too is all i am saying…i’m 30 and i’m a woman i look young for my age people think i’m 21 but i’m not so me going for a 30 year old man that looks 35 looks kinda creepy and i don’t want that look, so i date men that are like 26 or 27 and we make good couple…we look the same and i know if i ever have children when i’m 40 i got younger healthier sperm….then some blad, big bellied, grey haired, snorring old-man!
WOMAN DATE A MAN A FEW YEARS YOUNGER, AND HAVE BETTER HEALTHIER BABIES, ITS NOT HEALTHY AS MEN OVER 40 DO HAVE LOWER QUALITY SPERM AND THE OLDER HE GETS THE WORSE BIRTH DEFECTS ARE POSSIBLE, MY AUNT IS A DOCTOR AND SEES SO MANY BABIES BORN WITH AUTISM AND GENERALLY ITS BECAUSE OF THE OLD FATHER, AND SHE JUST SAY ANOTHER CHILD SUFFERING FROM DWARFISM…FATHER WAS 59 THE WOMAN WAS ONLY 21 AGAIN…WHAT A WASTE…SHE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER IF SHE HUNG AROUND MEN HER OWN AGE!
MEN TO HAVE THAT CLOCK…BUT ITS MORE GRADUAL ….AGAIN GOD MAKE 4 YEAR OLD GIRLS FOR 4 YEAR OLD BOYS…AND 25 YEAR OLD MEN FOR 25 YEAR OLD WOMAN…STICK TO YOUR OWN AGE GROUPS…YOU WOULD BE BETTER OFF RMEMBER YOU ARE TRYING TO FIND SOMEONE TO SPEND THE REST OF YOUR LIFE WITH…THIS ISN’T FOR MENS SEXUAL GRATIFICATION…LADIES…FIND A GUY YOUR OWN AGE OR YOUNGER…BEST SPERM QUALITY IS IN 20’S !
i AM A WOMAN AND I’M ONLY 26 AND OLDER MEN DISGUST ME EWW.
YOU MEN ITS THE SAME FOR US WOMEN…A MAN SHOULD MARRY A WOMAN HIS OWN AGE, THE OLDER MEN GET THE HARDER IT IS, MOST YOUNG WOMEN UNDER 30 DO NOT WANT SOME OLD DUDE…MENTALLY WOMAN CHANGE SO MUCH…HERE IS ANOTHER STUDY…WHY MEN AND WOMAN SHOULD BE THE SAME AGE, THEY DO GO THOUGH CHANGES ROUGLY THE SAME TIME:
[D: Copyrighted content removed (the use of lower case characters was a tip off), but I found what appears to be the source here.]
Dalrock:
are you letting these last few comments through for the entertainment value?
Do I need to get out my hamsterlator again?
[D: You don’t buy that LIA is really a 26 year old woman who just happens to harbor great resentment against middle aged men for being able to date and make babies with other women her age?]
Holy. Cow.
I for one am glad to witness the most disturbing thoughts of women afraid of becoming older. Just how screwed up can a woman be? There is almost no limit to it.
I don’t think much of women as a result, but on the bright side, they rarely disappoint me.
“that after the age of 39, men are 7 per cent less likely with each advancing year to help produce a perfect fertilised egg.”
So men are fertile well into their 50’s …
LIA, Tony Randall and Larry King would like to have a word with you
Don’t worry, I’m sure with their charming attitudes LIA and jojo have men lining up to marry them.
ANOTHER CHILD SUFFERING FROM DWARFISM…FATHER WAS 59 THE WOMAN WAS ONLY 21 AGAIN…WHAT A WASTE…
Perhaps we could exile undesirables. A dwarf couldn’t possibly live a happy life!
Very good advice, Dalrock! Except I doubt that it’s necessary for her to have a man order for her.
“No 21st century woman with an IQ over 70 would do any of this or put up with any of this”
Really? I agree, but you’ve spoken pretty strongly about how women even crave men to rule them. Paige, it seems, basically applied her own extreme experience to her advice, like you have.
The thing to look out for is not old men, but men with a large cranial circumference. A dwarf would be a pleasant change over one of the round headed monsters my husband spawns…Also, make sure to marry someone with a good sense of direction because you don’t want those kids facing the wrong way when they come out.
*snerk*
Hi. I consider. Myself to be a woman in my 30’s and a 9 currently on a scale from 1-11. However something that came along with turning 30 (besides a crash in my metabolism which was real fun. I never had to excersiize and never weighed above 110,now I have not only passed the age of 30, but I have also out on 15 pounds) I have also turned 31 and have been put into this class of ” desperate woman over 30″ I was with someone for 6 &1/2 years and would not marry him, nor would he me. We loved each other and still do, however now we love and respect each other in a way ex’s can after time, hopefully the way first husbands and wives of this generation should be blessed with when 50% of them divorce. Some people might think it is strange to have this relationship with him, however.. ” you never re marry your first husband” and we respect each other, and have seen each other threw so much, we just weren’t mean to spend out lives with each other.. We both learned a lot, and grew, with in the relationship. After we broke up ( myself being a monogamist my entire life) I decided not to enter another committed relationship. I decided to stay “single” to just deal with my self, my life, my friends, all me ( aka no boy obsessing ‘will he call?’ bs ) for two years before I felt i was ready to enter into a committed relationship with anyone else. With me entering in this response I just wanted to say, that not all women in their 30’s are bitter, or “something went wrong” or our clock is ticking anymore than perhaps a man around our age. I am just ready to find someone who will be my friend and continue on the journey of life with. I am more prepared now than I would have been in my 20’s to handel the compromises a relationship that will last “forever” takes. More prepared to take the next steps with a partner, and actually deal with the thought of one day having children with someone. Perhaps I will find an alpha or a beta guy. The most important thing to me is that I can trust him, we can make each other laugh, and he is kind. ( and amazing sex life would be dope as well) I just think that sometimes women get a lot of stress put on them at this age, and honestly; we tend to feel the same way towards dating as men our age do. I would rather sit home and google random shit then go on a date with a guy who aggressively picked me up at bar. Honestly woman are now having babies at 40. Which means I (at least ) have 9 YEARS!! That is more then enough time at this piont in my life to find some human being that I can see spending the rest of my life with!! So.. Bottom line.. I think our generation needs to relax. Cut the pressure on the woman, and I bet they will relax and not seem as intense as they do.. ( granted we shouldn’t just date ‘willy nilly like’) I honestly know women that can cook, clean, and wait for a man to open the door for them, as well enjoy ironing and doing laundry ( i actually do!!) and i know woman that don’t and that is ok too.. As far as the men.. We aren’t all bad, or mean, or damaged.. We are in fact on the same page as you.. Just viewed differently because of media,sicail, and familail influences; as well as hostorical pressures. So please when you eventualy ask how old we are, don’t judge based on that. Judge us based on the vibe you get, beacuse this is an ever changing generation, in fact the first generation that has this many single woman in thier 30’s than ever before… We are all just trying to find love, and comapnionship…as you guys would like to find as well.. Someone to be there for you during stressful times, rocky times, and happy times..Don’t just write us off because we are older than 27, because at 27, I would have broken your heart and left you in tears. Now I want to hear your stories, and wipe away your fears..Also, don’t judge me on any spelling or grammatical errors, I decided to not proofread this.
I see comments from women who write that women should marry men who are around their own age. I don’t disagree with that, but if a woman plans on doing this, she really needs to put forth some effort when she is in her late 20s to find a guy her age who wants to marry her. Women in their mid-30s or later almost seem shocked when the level of attention they receive from all men, including those their own age, plummets as those women get older. I suppose this is part of the reason why some women do become nicer and more pleasant when they are older because they cannot get away with being a bitch and having a crappy personality anymore like they could when they were younger.
Jojo (May 24, 2012), you are very naive if you think that a 26 year old man really wants to marry a 30 year old woman unless the woman is far more attractive than what that man thinks he is generally capable of getting. You might have success dating a younger man like that, but men even at that age absolutely do weigh a woman’s age when looking for a marriage partner.
Jls,
Here is a male’s perspective.
Spend the twenties listening to women’s stories about what bastards most men are. See women friends date, sleep with and cohabit with said men. Relationship breaks up. Women seeks emotional support from friend-zoned men. Rinse and repeat.
Men get to age thirty. Work has often become more rewarding. Have more confidence. Women friends of same age have often last ten years with douchebag men, thanks to their possession of dark triad traits.
In your case, why did it take six years of your life to work out he wasn’t right for you? That is a loss of time you may never recover from. And having had all that time to ‘find yourself’, why should any guy put up with being told he’s not good enough for a girl, until she is 30, 32 or 35? Being in relationship is not about being perfect beforehand. It is about growing together, man leading, first mate assisting.
As women age, they will get less attention from the most desirable men. As one of the normal, less desirable men, i can report that being ignored for year by quite average women, being used for emotional succour only when needed and having no companionship demonstrates the me-first attitude of most younger women. Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. Older women are simply selfish in more socially acceptable ways.
Women say they want men they can trust, laugh with and expect kindness from. By virtue of their age, almost all younger women have beta men around them that offer these qualities. It is a lie. Women want men that excite them, are socially dominant to them and to other people.
By the age of thirty, too many women have spent ten or more years espousing one set of qualities whilst actively pursuing a completely different grabbag.
I am being polite. But quite frankly, some of us took longer than others to discern the lies. You should not be surprised.
An observer, +1. IN JLS we have a hamsterrific woman who is starting to figure out the truth.
She is honest about one thing, though. Did you catch this:
“Don’t just write us off because we are older than 27, because at 27, I would have broken your heart and left you in tears.”
Allow me to hamsterlate: “When I was 27 I would never have even considered stooping so low as to date someone like you. But I would have f**ked your douchebag friends and their out of town alpha friends. They would have banged the shit out of me, and I would have loved every minute of it.”
OK, JLS. I won’t judge you on your spelling or grammatical errors. I will get out the hamsterlator so I can decipher what you’re really saying.
Here’s portions of JLS’ post. with the hamsterlations in quotes.
Hi. I consider. Myself to be a woman in my 30′s and a 9 currently on a scale from 1-11. However something that came along with turning 30 (besides a crash in my metabolism which was real fun. I never had to excersiize and never weighed above 110,now I have not only passed the age of 30, but I have also out on 15 pounds) I have also turned 31 and have been put into this class of ” desperate woman over 30″
Hamsterlation: “I’m 31 and a 6 at best. My girlfriends tell me I’m a 9, but I know that’s not true because I lie to them about how hot they are. I’ve hit The Wall and I know it, because I’m starting to get fat. For reasons I’m about to tell you, I really am getting desperate.”
_____________________
I was with someone for 6 &1/2 years and would not marry him, nor would he me. We loved each other and still do, however now we love and respect each other in a way ex’s can after time, hopefully the way first husbands and wives of this generation should be blessed with when 50% of them divorce. Some people might think it is strange to have this relationship with him, however.. ” you never re marry your first husband” and we respect each other, and have seen each other threw so much, we just weren’t mean to spend out lives with each other.. We both learned a lot, and grew, with in the relationship. After we broke up ( myself being a monogamist my entire life) I decided not to enter another committed relationship. I decided to stay “single” to just deal with my self, my life, my friends, all me ( aka no boy obsessing ‘will he call?’ bs ) for two years before I felt i was ready to enter into a committed relationship with anyone else.
Hamsterlation: “I was with the love of my life for 6 1/2 years. I practically threw myself at him, begged him to marry me. I fed him, f**ked him, supported him, washed his skid marked underwear. I was (and am) so totally in love with him I would have (and did, and will) let him do anything he wanted to me. He is superalpha, and all the shit he put me through has been totally worth it. Though we broke up we still have sex when he wants to. Hell, I’d sex him whenever he wants, because he is just so damn alpha and he pushes my buttons like no one else before or since. I’d crawl over broken glass to f**k him, regardless of who I was with. Any man who comes afterwards will be compared to my superalpha. No one will ever measure up. I’m still not over him, and probably never will be. I am living, breathing proof that five minutes of alpha is better than 5 years of beta.”
___________________________
With me entering in this response I just wanted to say, that not all women in their 30′s are bitter, or “something went wrong” or our clock is ticking anymore than perhaps a man around our age. I am just ready to find someone who will be my friend and continue on the journey of life with. I am more prepared now than I would have been in my 20′s to handel the compromises a relationship that will last “forever” takes. More prepared to take the next steps with a partner, and actually deal with the thought of one day having children with someone. Perhaps I will find an alpha or a beta guy. The most important thing to me is that I can trust him, we can make each other laugh, and he is kind. ( and amazing sex life would be dope as well)
Hamsterlation: “I’m so damn desperate to find a man I don’t know what to do. My superalpha uses me as his personal f**ktoy. I’m 31 and getting fat. I want a new man to be my friend first. I’m going to make him wait for sex because I’m going to do it right this time and I want him to respect me as a person. I wasn’t ready for a committed relationship in my 20s because I didn’t have to commit. I had all the men I could ever want, plus my superalpha. But now I’m running out of options, and time, and looks, and K-Y jelly, and I can’t even get a college guy with 6 pack abs to take me home and jackhammer me for a night. Damn. Well, an average beta boy who will work his ass off for me so I can quit my sucky job and pump out babies before it’s too late is looking pretty good.”
Continued:
I just think that sometimes women get a lot of stress put on them at this age, and honestly; we tend to feel the same way towards dating as men our age do. I would rather sit home and google random shit then go on a date with a guy who aggressively picked me up at bar. Honestly woman are now having babies at 40. Which means I (at least ) have 9 YEARS!! That is more then enough time at this piont in my life to find some human being that I can see spending the rest of my life with!! So.. Bottom line.. I think our generation needs to relax. Cut the pressure on the woman, and I bet they will relax and not seem as intense as they do.. ( granted we shouldn’t just date ‘willy nilly like’) I honestly know women that can cook, clean, and wait for a man to open the door for them, as well enjoy ironing and doing laundry ( i actually do!!) and i know woman that don’t and that is ok too..
Hamsterlation: “I’m under a shitload of stress because I can see my looks fading by the day, I’m unmarried, and I am Scared. To. Death. that I won’t find some dumbf**k guy I can dupe into marrying me. I’m so damn frightened I googled “Unmarried and over 30″ and it brought me to this Dalrock dude’s website. Wait a minute – I’ve got time to have babies. After all, those celebrities had babies after 40. Sure, she had $50k to spend on IVF and fertility treatments. And my cousin’s friend did too. If they can do it, I can do it. I just need a good beta boy I can trick into wifing me up. So, don’t push me. I don’t need the pressure. I’ll get around to sleeping with you when I feel like it, beta boy. I’ve just got to work up my fantasies so I can let you put your little thing in me, hopefully without retching.”
____________________________
As far as the men.. We aren’t all bad, or mean, or damaged.. We are in fact on the same page as you.. Just viewed differently because of media,sicail, and familail influences; as well as hostorical pressures. So please when you eventualy ask how old we are, don’t judge based on that. Judge us based on the vibe you get, beacuse this is an ever changing generation, in fact the first generation that has this many single woman in thier 30′s than ever before… We are all just trying to find love, and comapnionship…as you guys would like to find as well.. Someone to be there for you during stressful times, rocky times, and happy times..Don’t just write us off because we are older than 27, because at 27, I would have broken your heart and left you in tears. Now I want to hear your stories, and wipe away your fears..Also, don’t judge me on any spelling or grammatical errors, I decided to not proofread this.
Hamsterlation: “So, I’m getting around to finally accepting that superalpha is never going to marry me and father my babies. I’m on the same page with you men because I’ve finally figured out that I totally f**ked up my life and wasted it on a man who used me like a washcloth, but to whom I am hopelessly bonded to, and I don’t know if I can ever break free from it. It’s not about age. We want you to love us and be with us, no matter how damaged we really are. Don’t expect great sex because I won’t be giving it to you. If you’re lucky it’ll be once a week, right before bedtime, with the lights off. I need to sex you that way so I can stomach it and so I can roll over and go to sleep and try to forget about it. And while I sleep I’ll have visions of superalpha dancing in my head. And I need you to be there for me. Don’t expect me to be there for you. I’ll be waiting by my cell phone for superalpha’s call, for our bimonthly secret trysts that I absolutely LIVE for and you’ll never find out about.”
“Oh, and one last thing: don’t think for one minute that I would have given you so much as the time of day if I didn’t have to. I’m only dating you because I can see the window closing, and I’m running out of time and options. Back in the day, I wouldn’t have let you even look at my smokin’ body and killer personality. You couldn’t have paid me even to be seen in public with your sorry ass four years ago. You’re only getting this because superalpha won’t marry me, the other alphas won’t f**k me, and you’re the best I can do. And don’t you ever forget it, beta boy.”
@Deti: SPOT ON +1!
I’d never want to take the place of a man who managed to get a woman to yearn so long for him.
Reminds me of the joke:
A man walks out to the street and catches a taxi just going by. He gets into the taxi, and the cabbie says, ‘Perfect timing.. You’re just like Frank.
Passenger: ‘Who?’
Cabbie: ‘Frank Feldman.. He’s a guy who did everything right all the time Like my coming along when you needed a cab, things happened like that to Frank Feldman every single time.’
Passenger: ‘There are always a few clouds over everybody.’
Cabbie: ‘Not Frank Feldman. He was a terrific athlete. He could have won the Grand-Slam at tennis. He could golf with the pros.. He sang like an opera baritone and danced like a Broadway star and you should have heard him play the piano. He was an amazing guy.’
Passenger: Sounds like he was something really special.
Cabbie: ‘There’s more. He had a memory like a computer. He remembered everybody’s birthday. He knew all about wine, which foods to order and which fork to eat them with. He could fix anything. Not like me. I change a fuse, and the whole street blacks out. But Frank Feldman, could do everything right.
Passenger: ‘Wow, some guy then.’
Cabbie: ‘He always knew the quickest way to go in traffic and avoid traffic jams. Not like me, I always seem to get stuck in them. But Frank, he never made a mistake, and he really knew how to treat a woman and make her feel good. He would never answer her back even if she was in the wrong; and his clothing was always immaculate, shoes highly polished too – He was the perfect man! He never made a mistake. No one could ever measure up to Frank Feldman.’
Passenger: ‘An amazing fellow. How did you meet him?’
Cabbie: “Well, I never actually met Frank. He died and I married his Ex’ wife.”
PRay:
Thanks. Did you see how much JLS wrote about her superalpha, and the way she wrote about him, waxing eloquent and rhapsodic? Her beautiful memories of him? Her “Love and respect” for him? How they had been “threw” (LOL) so much together and love each other “like exes”?
The dead giveaway is how these women come on here and write a paragraph about The One That Got Away. Star-Crossed Lovers. We were So in Love but It Was Not Meant To Be.
JLS is still in love with Superalpha. She can deny it all she wants, but that dude is still in her head and her heart. He owns her, and he always will.
P Ray:
I write this stuff because men need to understand what they are REALLY Hearing when women say things like this.
The other dead giveaway is when a woman talks incessantly about what a total worthless dickhead asshole scumbag her ex BF or ex husband is. “That dumbass guy. I supported that deadbeat. I gave my whole life for him and he never appreciated me. I know he cheated on me but I’ll never be able to prove it. I hate him. I’m glad I kicked that ass to the curb. He was ugly, gross, unshaven, unambitious, didn’t want anything for his life, didn’t want anything for our life together. Such a stupid asshole, and I was stupid for staying with him.”
Hamsterlation: “I loved that guy. He could f**k me like nobody’s business. He made me come so hard I couldn’t see straight for two days afterward. He was so incredibly hot, with a bangin’ muscular body and a c**k that fit me perfectly. Sure, he was broke and stupid, but I couldn’t have cared less because that guy could bang like a king. That made all the difference. It’s why I put up with his shit for so long. It’s also why I can’t stop thinking about him, dreaming about him, letting him live rent-free in my head. It’s also why I’m talking about him to you now, because I’m trying damn hard to justify and make sense of why I’m with you. Please, please, please qualify yourself hard and well so my hamster will shut the f**k up and I can finally make peace with the fact that I had no choice but to end things with the one and only man who could ever do me just right.”
The moment a man hears from a woman about how she was always “unlucky in love” …
he’d better understand that he’s going to have to put up with her endless comparison about how he never measures up to her ex.
The person-to-person example of feminism in action, where the macro version is “women NOW are getting justice for the women in the PAST for what the men in the PAST did to them … from the men NOW”.
The person-to-person version is “all my previous boyfriends were crap, you’d better COMPENSATE me for my heartbreak”.
Notice also that these spiels are always about a man who was a complete worthless moron. But it took her a matter of YEARS to figure that out, despite the fact that she completely interwove her life with his, lived with him, ate with him, lived her life with him, shared a bed with him, and took on the role of “wife”.
If he’s a worthless moron, is an average woman really unable to figure that out in a few weeks or months?
Does she have to move in with him, sleep with him, and act like a wife before she gets with the program and figures out what a guy is about?
Or is something else going on? Could it be she stayed with him because of the great sex?
JSL, Lia and jojo, what on earth did I just read from you bunch of angry, bitching yentas? Thanks to Deti for sorting through that trash! I couldn’t even stomach it.
I’ll keep saying it. No woman over 30 is worth marriage. None, no exceptions.
A possible quick rebuttal to her “tale of woe”:
“those guys sound so terrible, how were you ever able to have sex with them?” 🙂
Deti,
Priceless.
I did catch the age 27 thing. Have heard that line before, but prior to the red pill had not understood it fully, except to mean ‘get lost’.
Thanks again for the expert translation.
For the benefit of the people who may, like JLS, stumble on this and assert that she was fair and honest, and an observer, Deti and Feminist Hater are just too harsh (and they are, but I hope your parents were too when you were growing up, that’s a mark they care), I’ll add a little comment that is maybe a little more neutral:
“As far as the men.. We aren’t all bad, or mean, or damaged.. We are in fact on the same page as you.. Just viewed differently because of media,sicail, and familail influences; as well as hostorical pressures.”
And this is the faulty point. No, men and women at that age are not on the same page: biologically, mentally and emotionally, they really aren’t. JLS assumes she will find a man in a similar position to her: he was hot and popular in his 20’s, spent 7 years with a girl who “wasn’t right for him” and is now looking for a slightly less passionate love story, a life companion. The truth is, this guy doesn’t exist. If he was hot and popular in his 20’s, he’s either still an alpha player, or is already happily married, because he got to choose the best wife. If he wanted marriage, and spent 7 years with a girl who didn’t (highly unlikely), he can bounce back now and pick a younger girl because he’s still as attractive, if not more so, than in his 20’s. If he is looking for a less intense love story and a life companion, why would he marry? He’s in no rush, and he probably saw what married life is for a man these days.
I repeat, there is no man who will be at the same page as JLS is, so the best thing to do is find out who’s left, understand what “page” he’s on (unattractive beta who never had success with the ladies, guy who likes the single life, divorced guy looking for companionship but tired of marriage) and understand that what you want isn’t what he wants, and unless you compromise, you won’t get anything at all. For the beta guy, the compromise might be with someone who repulses you, for the other two, it may mean forgetting about marriage altogether. Your luckiest shot would probably be a very religious widower: he is single, not by choice, and needs to be married to live with someone. But guys like these are one-in-a million, so understand your prospects.
zykos:
Pretty spot on, I’d say. JLS’ options to find a long term mate are dwindling fast. Her best bets are divorced men in their 40s and who want to remarry. Unfortunately, she has almost nothing to bargain with. She seems to be in shape and probably slender, and thus has some attractiveness. But she is 31, wasted 7 years of her life with a man with whom marriage was never going to happen, and then spent another 2 years “getting over” him.
It seems to be a common problem among women that they believe there is an abundance of good looking, wealthy, interesting and attractive men who will be waiting with arms outstretched when they are done riding the carousel. The dating and SMP world looks very different and much more constricted to a 31 year old woman than to a 21 YO woman. At 21, the world is her oyster. Her SMP power is positively immense. And she has no idea that mother nature just gave her a nuclear weapon that, if not used correctly, will explode on her. She can have almost anything she wants: the carousel, hot alpha sex (as long as she isn’t a hassle and doesn’t mind sharing), a boyfriend (or more likely, a series of BFs in rapid fire succession); all expense paid dates and evenings out; expensive gifts, even perhaps a marriage proposal if she remains with a man long enough.
Now take that same woman and fast forward 10 years. At 31, the same woman’s view of the SMP is very different. She’s racked up a double digit partner count, consisting of one or two serious BFs of a year or more, four or five short term relationships of 6 months or less, and a few hookups and one night stands. She never stayed with anyone long enough to get married. She was with one of her BFs for a couple of years, but he never proposed and she broke with him when he cheated on her.
She’s either hit The Wall or is screaming towards it. It’s getting harder and harder to keep her weight down. She’s starting to show some facial lines. She still has some attractiveness, but her hair is dull and overstyled, her teeth are yellowing, her eyes don’t sparkle like they used to, and her skin has taken on a pallor. She doesn’t generate nearly the interest from men she used to. Now, the only men who ask her out are divorced men in their 40s and 50s, never married men in their 30s who work cubicle jobs and earn less than she does, and the players. The fancy dinners and entertainment are a thing of the past, though. Now she buys her own drinks half the time and rarely gets a dinner. More often her dates are “hanging out” at her house or his; or drinks for an hour or two. The players just want pump and dumps, but she knows that scene and has tired of it. Her last sex partner was a guy who was so smooth and talkative at the bar. He really liked her, or so she thought. She’d seen him around before. She was so taken with this guy who was giving her all this attention. She was attracted to him and thought he would be a lot of fun to date. So she went back to his place, they had sex, she left the next morning, and hasn’t heard from him since.
So she’s limited to the unattractive men, the divorced men. Men down on their luck. Men she wouldn’t have been seen in public with maybe five years ago. They take her for drinks, and talk boring shit about their jobs, their kids, their stupid hobbies. She doesn’t like any of them. It’s not exciting. There’s no fun, no drama, no intrigue.
Or she wants to get married and have kids, but she just can’t see spending the rest of her life with one of these lonely hearts. She can’t see having kids with the IT guy, the ditch digger, the landscaper, the nerdy engineer, or the plumber. She sure as hell doesn’t want to be a step mom to his kids or a wife number 2.
She seems to think there are a lot of great men out there just waiting for her. There aren’t. As you said, her choices are going to be divorced men, unattractive men unlucky with women, or alpha pump & dumpers. She might find a few divorced or unattractive men offering marriage, but these will be rare. She will not be viewed by most as marriage material. If all she wants is a relationship and not marriage, this will probably widen her choices a small amount.
Once again, the moral of the story is that for marriage, time is not on women’s side.
Pingback: Never marrieds piling up part 2; what should I do? | Dalrock
The way I see it, sex is always payed for, there are exceptions. Buying a dinner or taking a girl out with the intention to eventually lay a girl is paying her for sex, that can be twisted into any fairy-tale but in the end, there is an underlying monetary presence, always. It doesn’t matter if it’s a half-day date, or if it takes a 6 dates, or months or years. After sex has happened, it can be deemed as monetary transaction in some way or form.
Why is this important? There are two major reasons, the first one being the obvious tradition of the male paying for most of the cost in the relationship. I think the roles have to really be brought to a 50-50. Guy can pay for first date or second, but by third date there should be a split no exceptions. If not, the girl should be dumped, end of story. The other major reason is the option outside a prenuptial agreement, again when things are not 50-50.
And especially for those women in their 30s and up, these rules should be very strict because again, they got to play the field in their 20s. And likely, many of those dates they did not have to pay for. I’m generalizing here and of course, the female reading this is the exception. You madam reading this, are an exception for obvious reasons.
The last major reason that would cause dispute, is that while women think that they can offer sex as a prized item in a relationship, please be aware that in these modern times, sex is very easily attainable with women that rate far above the average in physical looks. They might come with a hefty price-tag over the long run, but they can deliver a superior service, and without the mind games.
Full disclosure:
I am a 30-year-old woman (probably an objective 7.5 in her prime, let’s say 6 now) who spent her 20s in a relationship with a really nice omega with all of the qualities that women say they want in a partner. We were engaged and I called it off six weeks before the wedding because I was uncontrollably attracted to an unavailable alpha at work. (When I say “unavailable,” I am referring to a relationship- he made himself very available for the pump-n-dump I eventually received). I did break up with him before I cheated.
Lost a bunch of weight, got some misleading feedback that led me to overestimate my rapidly waning SMV, spent a year with another alpha who was 6 years younger, til he dumped me on the grounds of conflicting religions and my not wanting children (his words- my version is that he was tired of putting up with my eight-month-long saga of crippling depression which manifested as daily uncontrollable crying fits and the inability to function, and couldn’t handle it anymore- gosh, can’t imagine why). Suddenly I realize that the pool has dried up and I am running out of time. I am not getting younger, I am not getting prettier, I don’t have all the time in the world and by this time the pickings are already slim. I recognize that it is time to adjust my standards downwardly and do so. Three months with a really unattractive alpha until I raged out on him about my suspicions that he was continuing to do his lazy-eyed ex and dumped him over text message, and a week later I meet The One.
This guy IS the Mr. Perfect that everyone keeps saying doesn’t exist. He’s a gorgeous and confident man with awesome abs, great job, owns property, also doesn’t want kids, seems to be somehow not aware that he’s an objective 9.5 (sorry, angry short dudes, but it’s because he’s under 6′ ) to the extent that he’s actually developed an enjoyable personality as well. The sex is amazing. Within a week and a half, he asked me to be exclusive; eight months later, to move in with him; two months after that, a shared puppy; now we’re at now and he’s asked me to visit his ancestral homeland in the Midwest to meet his childhood friends and spend time with his parents. Things are obviously going well and this guy is obviously committed to me for some bizarre reason. In my wildest dreams I would not have thought that this guy was in my league at all, so I want to a. keep him, and b. lock the shit down. He can do way better, I have no doubts, and before he realizes this and decides to act on it, I want to marry this man.
Don’t get me wrong; I KNOW I am lucky. I KNOW I have defied all odds. I cook in a frilly apron, bake special brownies when he has a bad day, listen to his problems and only offer advice when asked for it, make an effort to be interested in things that are important to him, know what his tastes are in lingerie and wear it EVERY DAY, stay on good terms with his family, and try my hardest to be a crazy bitch as infrequently as possible. I pay for dates, give thoughtful gifts (helicopter lessons), and shower him with praises of his masculinity for every dead spider and caulked faucet. I have a good job that pays well. I express my gratitude for everything he does for me on a daily basis (he reciprocates). I think I am doing a fair job as a girlfriend. He told me on our second date that he was not interested in being a father at any point in his life, which is great because I’m not interested in kids, either. I want to marry his wonderful ass and keep him forever. It does not get any better than him; even at 21 I would not have thought I could snag someone like this. The other fish in the shrinking sea are, by comparison, dead mackerel.
So… how do I encourage that to happen? HOW DO I MAKE THIS MAN MY HUSBAND? (Though it may be true, it would be unhelpful to say that I shouldn’t have agreed to move in with him. I agree, sort of. I was reluctant to do so at the time, I did it anyway with the understanding that I was not interested in “having fun”, and was looking for a lifetime partner and that living in together would be considered an evaluation of our potential for marital compatibility.) I’m hopeful that I have not been delusional in my self-assessment, but welcome any translation if I have.
Pillish:
I’ll take everything you say at face value. Here’s my assessment:
If this guy is truly everything you say he is, he will have options out the wazoo. Your only hope of marrying him is to be nice to him, submit to him in everything, and give him everything he wants without questioning and without argument. If he wants hot monkey sex every night, he gets hot monkey sex every night. If he wants BJs with you standing on your head and contorting yourself into a pretzel, then you had best find a way to give him that. (I exaggerate, but only a little.)
You must be nice to him. You must be pleasant to him AT ALL TIMES. You must be on your game as a wife and sex partner Every. Single. Day. And I do mean Every. Single. Day. The minute you start shit testing him, hassling him or bothering him, you’re history. He will dump you like a hot potato if he sees even one HINT of your past.
And while I’m on that subject — you’re a trainwreck waiting to happen. Your 20s with an omega? A broken engagement for a pump & dump? A history of alpha pump & dumps? A relationship with a younger alpha, which relationship was going nowhere? A history of mental illness? A display of near-BPD with a three-month relationship and accusations of infidelity?
What on earth makes you think you can keep this tube of wonderful? He’s going to see your mess ups. You have to disclose your past. If you don’t, he’ll find out about it eventually. When he finds out you frauded and deceived him into marriage, all hell will break loose.
Again, I ask — what makes you think you can keep him? He’s the one looking downward, not you. You’re the one with the lower value, not him.
Indeed, despite her desperate pleas if he wants her to become anything more than a sexual girlfriend he’ll ask her to marry him at his own pace. It doesn’t matter if the words you say are right, or how many meals you cook, whether it’ll be something more is entirely dependent on him.
But yeah, if it does happen then it’s an unhappy marriage abound, although I can’t see that scenario, It’s safe to assume if he was looking to get married, considering his position/options, that would already be the case.
Tokyo:
I agree. The only way Pillish gets this guy is to ultimatum him and for him to cave. If he’s as great as Pillish says he is, he won’t ask to get married. He’s already getting everything he wants (sex, her acting as wife) and nothing he doesn’t want (being locked into a legal commitment).
@Deti
But if one was not to take Pillish Redhead’s sob-story at face value this I think is what you get:
Firstly she has a relationship (a mini-marriage really and for nearly ten years) with a perfectly fine guy (now down-graded as women always tend to with ex’s, to Omega – that’s not nice) and puts on weight as contented people can do. She is a bit of a serial monogamist so Mr Omega is ditched – perhaps wisely.
Secondly throws herself at some guy who later thinks better of it. Such is life, if you slut it up, I’m afraid. Now she is bf less; so,
Thirdly she cradle snatches another guy which means easy sex for him I suppose but still pining for the previous guy I’d guess and uses the youngster as an emotional tampon (Having experienced that; that is not a nice thing to do to a guy). She says he blames it on mutually incompatible religions ( why am I getting the feeling Pillish is Jewish?) Then there seems to be an unattractive Alpha – is that not a contradiction in terms?
Fourthly she meets Mr Right who sounds to me just slightly self-absorbed and frankly using Pillish(no wonder he seems so perfect) but this latest relationship is beginning to look like the relationship with Mr Omega – just going on and on, neither wanting children. She sounds rather possesive.
I’d say, Mr Perfect could not be as perfect as she claims – no man can be that good. She seems to have a habit of pedestalising men. She also tends to have little confidence in herself partly as one can see from these grasping relationships and partly from being only too happy to see herself as becoming less attractive and over the hill which is nonsense. Now however she seeks our advice as to how to force Mr Perfect into wedlock. Desperation emanates from what she writes as well as what I suspect is a controlling temperament. More selfishness, I say, but then why throw yourself at a guy and treat him as if he were China and might easily break. This does not look like THE ONE to me at all.
Thirty is still young. I bet that when she does eventually fall pregnant she will realise that Mr Perfect was not THE ONE and that she wanted children all along.
Of course everything I just wrote could be entirely wrong. What it does reveal to me is the mess people get into when they put sex first, and marriage and family second.
Opus:
I see you have your own Q36B Space Hamsterlator!
In the (unlikely) event she did all suggested, the guy would still be nuts to marry.
If he did, she loses all incentive to continue the act. Marriage 2.0 simply is not worth the risk. Any single man with substantial assets has everything to lose.
The most likely outcome is the relationship will persist until her imperfections are clear. Then she will get traded for a younger, hotter girl.
The logical outcome of nofault divorce will be less marriage and more cat owners.
@Deti
Hahahahaha
Observer:
Yep. Pillish is a trainwreck. He will find out about her past. She’s much, much too big a marriage risk.
P Ray writes: “I’d never want to take the place of a man who managed to get a woman to yearn so long for him.”
A friend of mine once made the mistake of marrying a woman like this. Immediately after the wedding (or just as they were setting out on their honeymoon – I forget which it was) she made him drive to her ex’s old house so she could look at it and sigh, “HE used to live there.” Small wonder that she ran off with Mr. Perfect a few years down the road.
Great forum. First………what deti says is true ladies. I’m a 44 year old male……my only child turns 20 next week. There is NO WAY IN HELL men in my age group have any ‘yearning’ to get married …. you’re drinking the Kool-Aid to believe this garbage. Deti’s post of June 26 is spot on……. why in the hell would men in my age group, that are good looking, have better bodies than most 20 year olds in the gym and have earning power WANT to give it all up to marry a woman??
You better have some pretty compelling reasons….. but here’s a secret: there aren’t any. If you made it out of your 20’s unmarried….you blew it. By the time men hit their 30’s, we have hobbies, more confidence and careers…….. attractive women are a dime a dozen. Attractive women that will give sex at any moment are a dime a dozen. WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER US?
Western societal laws make the decision to marry for a man borderline insane. We meet and date women in their 20’s all the time. Its ridiculous…..and at times, annoying. Take a look at online dating sites in your city…..if the woman is at all attractive, she is probably in her 20’s and/or the profile is FAKE…… what guy is going to want to sign up to raise some other guy’s three kids? Its like I taught my son, “no vagina is made of gold”………. and considering that is ALL most women offer these days, they better pray that prostitution doesn’t become legalized…. because there is an entire subsection of society that will be more than happy to have sex with a hot woman and pay her to leave.
Delusion. Its everywhere. Friday nights in your cities hottest night spots. Go take a look. Women stopped offering that which we men actually value a long time ago: FEMININITY and NURTURING…….. you’re all too hung up on being the next Kim Kardashian…..
Good luck! History will write about this period in history with a dim, dim light……. women are screwing the pooch with their crappy attitudes.
This thread has been a great read… and I really did read it’s entirety. I’m a man in my late thirties and have gotten extremely comfortable with being single, and until reading this thread thought it was only my dad and stepmom who understood how it is that one gets comfortable being single. I’m the guy who as his ex girlfriends started turning thirty started wanting to get back in touch with him. Which I gave consideration a couple of times, found they hadn’t changed and were looking for a placeholder, and just stopped giving consideration to any other exes, because it kept playing out the same. You hit the nail on the head with what it is that men would like to see, and don’t see enough of, when they’re pondering a marriage partner. First, a good and humble attitude (i.e. not jaded and not scornful of men in general) and second, femininity.
The thing for me that’s annoying when I am looking, is to come across women who want the world, but clearly don’t offer it. There are lots of 4’s to 6’s that think they’re worthy of the kind of worship that I wouldn’t even give to a 10+. And they seem to see relationships in that dynamic, woman does nothing, guy worships and does woman’s every whim. They’ve apparently misconstrued the whole confidence thing to mean if they act like they should be worshipped that they will end up being worshipped. When the reality is that nothing could be further from the truth.
Ah yes….the infamous ex-girlfriends coming back around …. what man hasn’t experienced that? You can see hundreds of unattractive women with outrageous demands on any dating site.
Daring, CallMeTom:
What you’re describing is becoming slightly more typical of many men in areas urban and rural. But most men are getting married. According to stats Dalrock has put up and analyzed here in expert fashion, men’s age at first marriage is creeping up and the number of men never marrying is creeping up too. But the latter figure is not shooting or spiking upward, so you can’t really say there’s a marriage strike.
I’m hearing more and more men say these things:
1. Married men who are one and done. If they ever find themselves single for any reason, they’d never marry again despite conventional wisdom that says men just do better, live longer and are happier when married.
2. Single men who have sworn off marriage. A few become PUAs and players, still more TRY their hand and fail at playerhood, still more go their own way.
3. Most women aren’t date-able, and certainly aren’t marriageable. Many of them are unattractive, unfeminine and simply not worth the investment. They are more interested in being “hot” and hypersexual than in being pretty and feminine.
4. Many women have nothing to offer other than their bodies. They can’t cook. They can’t keep even one bedroom clean, much less a house. They are grindingly boring to be around. Their only interests are custom manicures, hairdos, Real Housewives, Dance Moms, and all things Kardashian.
5. Despite their offering little, these women demand much. They demand the looks of David Beckham, the abs of Brad Pitt, the charm of George Clooney, and the money of Warren Buffett. Women who are HB5s who have spent a few years banging hot alpha 8s and 9s are genuinely flummoxed that one of these men won’t drop to one knee and offer a ring and a date. Then they weep and cry bitter disappointed tears that the only men willing to marry them are beta 5s and 6s. All of these men would make fine husbands and would walk her down the aisle tomorrow, but are rejected because they’re not hotbody alphas with six pack abs, rock hard c*cks, a BMW in the garage and a six figure income.
I’d rather be contentedly single then miserably married, but I still hope one day to at least be contentedly married. I don’t think I’d ever manage as a player, most of my relationships have started with semi-instant chemistry, so I’ve never really learned the game. It’s good to know your limitations right?
Based on some of my friends’ wives, #4 is a pretty common reality. I can cook and clean, how is it that so many women haven’t figured out how to? Likewise, it seems like the fathers are more bonded to their children than the mothers 3/4’s of the time. Also, in regards to #3 and #4, it is a curious thing that women say that they want emotional/ intellectual intimacy, but my experience is that in truth, physical intimacy is what’s easiest for them. I guess that can be attributed to the hamster wheel effect some of the posts above refer to. They’re saying what they think sounds right rather than simply saying what they’re thinking.
I am with Tom and then some… I would rather be any single period…American women are too whacked…
so…i have no idea how googling for (what was i looking for?) led me to this sight, but my God, this has got to be the MOST DEPRESSING WEBSITE EVER. You list down formulas for marriage?? MMF = SF + $*(f(theta,x)) ??? W-T-F!?!? then you start objectifying both sexes? orbiter dude? alpha female? huh????
Like I’m only a teen, but seriously, just find a nice guy (gal) that
[a] loves you
[b] has good family (in-laws that will tolerate you)
and that’s it!!! the rest will fall into place. i swear, I’d rather read an IRS tax book than read through this depressing sh*t….jeez, no soul whatsoever labelling men and women into different types and predicting their behavior based on their “label” …so sad.
James:
I was a teen like you in the mid 1980s, eons ago. I once thought as you did. I once thought I could very easily simply snap my fingers and find someone who loved me and whose parents I could tolerate and who tolerated me. And indeed I did find a few such girls.
Then I would go all in, act lovey-dovey, and invest all of my time, money, resources and myself.
Within a few weeks, with nearly every girl, I heard variations on the same theme:
–“Let’s just be friends.”
–“We just don’t seem to have much in common.”
–“I just don’t want to get serious.”
–“I’m just not attracted to you.”
–“I don’t want to rush things. You’re really special, and I want to wait.”
–“I want to do it the right way this time.”
–“I’m not like that anymore.”
–“This isn’t working out. But I really like you, and I hope we can be friends.”
–“It’s not you, it’s me.”
–“There’s two kinds of guys — the kind you date, and the kind you marry. You’re the kind you marry, and I’m just not ready to get married yet. I hope you understand.”
–“You’re gonna make a great husband for some really lucky girl someday!”
Translation: “You’re not man enough for me. You’ve given me all of yourself and I guess I just don’t think it’s good enough. I found another man who’s sexier and more manly than you are, and since we’re not married and I don’t owe you anything, I’m outta here. Besides, you want commitment; I don’t.”
Then you sit back, over and over, and watch the girls who just dumped you swing immediately to a more alpha man who holds back on commitment, doesn’t give all of himself to her, acts as his own man, and takes no sh!t from her. He dumps her the minute she starts hassling him. Then she comes back to you, weeping about how Alpha McGorgeous or Harley McBadboy or Frank Fratboy or F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer done her wrong, and “why can’t they be NICEGUYS like you!?”
Though times, laws and culture have changed, human nature has not.
You have much to learn, young James. I hope you and other young men coming up now don’t have to learn it the hard way, as I did.
@James: FWIW, I found this thread to be uplifting, because my experiences seem to be pretty common. It wasn’t just me experiencing and seeing these things. Kind of like the first time a relationship ends, and no matter how hard you try, you can’t really blame yourself even 1% for it ending. Sure it’s sad that that’s the reality of it, but to know that it’s no fault of your own? Uplifting if anything is.
James:
I truly hope that no girl ever tells you these things. But if they do, I’ve recopied them here, with the translations:
–”Let’s just be friends.”
Translation: “I don’t really want to be your friend; I just want to find a way out of this thing with you that will not make me look like a total bitch. Look, let’s face it: I will never ever in a million years have sex with you because I’m just not into you at all. So can we just agree to leave it, and walk away, so that I can save some face here? OK?”
–”We just don’t seem to have much in common.”
Translation: “I don’t want to have sex with you.”
–”I just don’t want to get serious.”
Translation: “I just don’t want to get serious WITH YOU.”
–”I’m just not attracted to you.”
Translation: “You and me — this just isn’t going anywhere. Look, the thought of having sex with you really turns me off. You’re just not my type. I’m trying to let you down easy while being halfway honest here.”
–”I don’t want to rush things. You’re really special, and I want to wait.”
Translation: “If you were a hot alpha, I’d do anything you wanted sexually. I’d blow you in the bar bathroom and be literally f**king you in the car on the way back to your place. And in fact I’ve done that many times before with alphas (not that I’ll ever explicitly tell YOU that). But since you’re not a hot alpha, and you’re instead a provider beta, you’re not getting sex until I know you’re invested in me, and even then you might not get any sex. I am in total control here.”
–”I want to do it the right way this time.”
Translation: “I’ve gotten hot sex from hot alphas, and I got hurt. Now I’m on the prowl for a husband; and I’m going to make you establish yourself as husband material before you see any skin at all.”
–”I’m not like that anymore.”
Translation: “I most certainly am like that with alpha men. But I’m ready for a husband now after my time on the carousel. Since you’re not alpha, I need to put on a “nice girl” act so I can make you prove your bona fides as possible boyfriend or husband material.”
–”This isn’t working out. But I really like you, and I hope we can be friends.”
Translation: “This isn’t working out, I don’t like you, and I don’t ever want to see you again.”
–”It’s not you, it’s me.”
Translation: “It’s not me at all. I’m just fine. It’s you. It’s all you. You are the problem here, and I’m ending the problem by getting rid of you.”
–”There’s two kinds of guys — the kind you date, and the kind you marry. You’re the kind you marry, and I’m just not ready to get married yet. I hope you understand.”
Translation: “You’re too nice of a guy, you don’t turn me on, I feel like a bitch by dumping you, but the bad feelings aren’t enough to make me continue dating someone I am just not into at all. But I’d be totally into marrying you if I were feeling the tingles.”
–”You’re gonna make a great husband for some really lucky girl someday!”
Translation: “I don’t know if you’d be a great husband or not, but thank God I’ll never find out, because that “really lucky girl” will definitely NOT be me.”
On the other hand, James, translating for men is easy.
–“Hi, [insert girl’s name here]. I’m [insert man’s name here].
Translation: “I want to have sex with you.”
–“let’s get a drink.”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you.”
–“what are you doing later on?”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you.”
–“Let’s get out of here and go to another place.”
Translation: “I want to get you alone away from your friends and cockblockers because I want to have sex with you.”
–“Let’s go back to [my] [your] [other available] place.”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you.”
–“That was awesome.”
Translation: “I liked having sex with you and I want to have sex with you again.”
–“I’ll call you in a couple of days.”
Translation: “I’ll call you when I want to have sex with you again.”
–“Let’s meet up for some drinks at [insert name of watering hole here].”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you again.”
–“Yeah, I guess you can call me a boyfriend.”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you on a regular basis.”
–“[Girlfriend’s name], I want you to meet my mom, [insert Mom’s name here] and my dad, [insert Dad’s name here]. And this is my brother and sisters.”
Translation: “I want my parents and siblings to approve of my having sex with you on a regular basis.”
–“Let’s get married.”
Translation: “I’m willing to give up my privilege of having sex with other girls to keep having sex with you.”
@ James…. “Like I’m only a teen, but seriously…..”
Yes, James, you are just a teen. When you have been married, had at least one child, supported your family, and faced a culture which will try to destroy all of that through laws that support frivolous divorce, which will leave your children fatherless and hence spiritually, emotionally and quite likely physically impoverished, then by all means feel free to share your wisdom. Until then try to learn something from your elders who have already been down this road. One of the chief values of wisdom is being able to learn from the experiences, good and bad, of those who have gone before you. One of the chief characteristics of foolishness is telling off your elders about how you are so much smarter than them.
@Deti
I was laughing.
Perhaps you know this one: It’s like going for a job. You have the interview and the interviewer says to you:
“You have a great resume, in fact you are the ideal person for the job – but, we are not going to hire you. We are in fact going to hire someone else, someone far less qualified than you. When it goes wrong, as it will, we will then hire someone else. In fact no matter who we hire we will never hire you; however from time to time we will call you to complain about the people we have hired”.
That is being friend-zoned. The reassuring news is, of course, that over the decades the quality of the men the woman can pull will gradually decrease, as the Alphas are replaced by the Scum-bags and toy-boys, and lost causes.
Let’s hope James is lucky – some are.
Luckily, while I was working my way through college in my twenties, I had the opportunity of working with a lot of my elders. I certianly learned some of mistakes to avoid from my father as he raised me, but I learned a whole new quantity of them from several coworkers of all ages. I learned things from men in their thirties all the way through men in their sixties, simply by listening to their experiences, be it their mistakes, or the things they’ve done right in their lives.
One of the bigger negative consequences of ‘modernist’ philosophy is that it discourages people from learning by way of others’ examples. Every individual has to find their own way in some regard, but why should any individual waste their time learning what has already been figured out? You put yourself seriously behind the curve in life if you’re not willing to acknowledge that a great many things in life have already been figured out; if you instead to try to figure everything out for yourself. Trial and error tends to involve a lot in the way of error before you figure out what works… and find out what works is what all your elders told you was what works.
Opus:
Yes. Men learn early on about rejection. We’re rejected by girls, by other men, by possible employers, in sports. We’re told “it’s part of life, suck it up, pick yourself back up, get back up, try again, don’t give up, keep trying, MAN UP!!!”
James gets it man….he has figured out that labels are bad news, and that to put labels on people is wrong. We can’t label things, join that label free movement that won’t call itself anything.
James,
You’re a teen. Enough said.
You’ll learn young man. And the older, experienced fellas will be here for you. I have a son turning 20 this week from my only marriage. When you’ve watched the destruction a woman and her ‘flighty’ decisions have on your child’s life….and how irreparably damaging they are……come back and tell us how you’re doing.
In the meantime, keep doing what you’re doing…… we will be here when you’re bleeding.
James,
To quote Frank Miller:
“Yeesh.”
To which I add:
Then certainly do not google “Heartiste” or “The rational male”.
[If you end up searching for them, don’t keep a firearm or sharp implement near you when you do so.]
That being said…
We’ll be seeing you again (and regularly) within the next 5 years.
No doubt in my mind.
@ Opus & Deti – thanks for the sad/funny/true insight.
However, allow me to point out these are the truly “stupid” females (Their behavior has consequences – they marry the wrong guy hoping to change him ( he will hate her for it)
Are there anyones that get it ?
I appreciate a lot of advice in this post, but I do have to admit that this site has reduced me to tears. I’m 34 year old single mom (flame me if you like, I’ve heard it all), educated with a masters degree, worked in a technical field and now am an adult educator in my field. I’m not a feminist. I’ve been told by many married men that I’m the whole package (smart, funny, pretty, etc.) and that they wish they’d settled down a little older and found someone like me. I’m not single by choice, I wasn’t holding out for some pie in the sky life. I was taking care of my responsibilities and providing the best life I could for my child. Made a few wrong decisions on the way and wasted my time on the wrong guys and here I am 34. Now I can get dates fairly easily, but I’m kinda shy and nothing clicks. I’m the type of woman that would do anything to make a man in my life happy. I’m a great cook, I’m reasonable at cleaning, I’m low maintenance, and all I’m looking for is a guy who will be kind and I can strike up a good best friends and more type relationship with, and I can’t seem to do that. It’s been a couple years since my last relationship. There are some usable ideas here but I must admit I feel pretty hopeless now. I guess I missed the train. Time to go hug my cat, maybe adopt a couple more .
Jenn,
I’ve dated single mothers after my own divorce 8 years ago; I’m 44. I was raised by a single mother; so I don’t judge anyone based on that alone.
This site is painfully accurate in describing the landscape of dating a woman over 30. Hell, you could say even worse things about women in their 20’s…..vapid, shallow…..the list goes on and on. Men just aren’t signing up anymore, as seen in today’s article quoting the census chart. Why should we?
How is it that is you’re attractive, smart and willing to be in a giving relationship, that you aren’t meeting men interested in you? Is it due to having a child? Because you’re shy? Shy doesn’t make guys like me move on, I happen to be attracted to shy, smart women…..so what do you attribute it to?
Jenn:
I’m not going to flame you. I reserve my snark for the haters who flounce in here with screeds about how awesome they are and about how there’s not a man alive who’s good enough for them. Since you haven’t done that, I don’t see any point to flaming you.
You came here because you’re looking for answers. Your situation’s going to depend on a lot of things. You don’t have to answer here; answer for yourself, and it might give you some insight. I will admit, the fact that you’re a single mother makes it difficult. Dating is treacherous enough for single men nowadays. Dating a single mom is a minefield.
–Do you work a lot of hours? Is your job demanding? (indicates time you have to devote to a relationship)
–How did you become a single mother? Unplanned pregnancy? Divorce? (It matters because it indicates your relationship history)
–How many long term relationships (LTRs) have you had? (same as above; also indicates ability to forge and sustain relationships)
–How many children do you have? How old are they? (children are a major time and money investment; indicates time and ability to commit to a relationship)
–If more than one child, all by the same father? (indicates future time orientation, planning, impulse control or lack thereof)
–How’s your relationship with the children’s father(s)? (Indicates ability to handle difficult situations; but could be a situation which many single men don’t want to involve themselves in)
–How many “wrong guys” were there and what were the circumstances? (That info tends to be important once things start getting serious. You’ll be asked about it. Gotta be up front about it.)
And most important:
–What do you want out of a relationship? Something long term? A husband? What is your goal? What are you willing to do to reach it? Are you willing to quit your job? Are you willing to relocate? Are you willing to let him lead your relationship; and you submit to his leadership?
@ Jenn – I have met women who are “the complete package ” – turns out they were not when it came to “relationship etiquette” behind closed doors.
It is quite predictable that a womans relationship with her father and if her parents are still married will pretty much dicate her relationship with a man ( The same is true for men ).
Btw, women who have just cats as pets scare the heck out of me ( seriously).
LOL well I have a cat, horses, a snake, and as soon as I get a house or a different apartment that will allow one, I’ll get a dog too. My parents are married, very happily still, they were high school sweethearts, me and my dad get along well.
I know a lot of people hate snakes 😦 but he’s a tiny little non-threatening animal that belongs to my daughter.
Cats are good. It is great that you get along with your Dad, Jenn. I think that is important.
@DaringHart13 I attribute it to reality I guess, lack of opportunity, sometimes mistakes on my part, sometimes happenstance. @deti, thanks for the questions, they were good food for thought. I wont answer all the questions cause that would be TMI. I have one daugher, she’s 10, I just got a job as a CIS Instructor at a college, so it’s demanding but the hours are somewhat flexible. I have only been at this job for a year and before my job was 8 to 5 so that may have been a problem. I would only relocate or quit my job if I was married or in a very committed relationship with someone I could count on. I need the stability this job provides so without some way to make it I can’t give it up. However, I would put a marriage ahead of those things cause I guess I believe you work together to make it. I will leave abusive situations, but in a healthy relationship I’m happy to let the man lead. I was raised that way and I’m not a domineering person, especially with guys. I genuinely get a kick out of guys and I gravitate towards hanging out with guys at work or in social situations because I feel more comfortable around men. I don’t hate women either unless they’re mean to me. I want a long term relationship and ultimately marriage but it’s more about the commitment and connection to me then it is the wedding. I left a 5 year relationship 3 years ago because the man didn’t want to marry me and I thought 5 years was long enough to wait. He would’ve if I’d offered an ultimatum but I guess I was just thinking that maybe I could find something more genuine then that. In the last 3 years I’ve been kissed, once, and not a porno kiss haha. I’m not a prude but I’m not bedhopping. I really want to meet the right person, fall in love and have something that can last and bring long term happiness to both people. Maybe I’m an idealist, wouldn’t be the first time. But my parents are like that and occasionally I see couples like that, so who knows.
Oh and as for my daughter’s father, he’s been out of the picture completely for 7 or 8 years. He didn’t follow the court visitation and left the state, got married, I think he’s divorced and bounces around. He may have other children by now. I hope he doesn’t come back. If he did I’d just do the best I could to find a peaceful solution that’s best for everyone but primarily my daughter.
Jenn: I left a 5 year relationship 3 years ago because the man didn’t want to marry me and I thought 5 years was long enough to wait
Dear Jenn, please take this as coming from someone who sincerely wants to help “marry you off”, and harbors no hostility. But I must say some hard things to make my point.
To be quite blunt, NO heterosexual man hangs around in a relationship for 5 years, without sex. (Except in the rare case where one party is deployed overseas, in college far away, or in jail, and it just isn’t possible to be togetehr.). So unless you and he are really, really unusual, for most of those 5 years you and he were having SEX. That’s a huge problem right there.
The first rule of getting married is, NO SEX til the WEDDING NIGHT. This will make all the jerks and nonserious men, go away quickly. The Bible has this ban for a reason. God is trying to help you, not ruin your fun.
The second rule is, don’t waste 5 years on anyone. If the relationship isn’t on a clear marriage track within 6 months, DUMP HIM. Don’t even give an ultimatum. Just end it. But of course, if you’re not giving him sex, he probably won’t even make it to the 6 month mark… unless he’s planning on proposing and getting sex THAT way… as he should.
If you left a 5 year relationship 3 years ago, and you’re 34, that means that you wasted prime marriage years… ages 26-31… on this loser. Don’t you wish, in retrospect, that you’d never slept with him, and he had walked away a LOT sooner, freeing you up to pursue others?
Rule 3. No pouftas. (Monty Python)
Rule 4. Specifc to your situation: Make it clear you want more kids. Back in my single days, somewhere around age 30 I suddenly realized that nearly all the women available to me, were divorced mothers.. and having less strict theological convictions about divorce than I do now, I broke down and dated those who seemed to be “biblically free to remarry” (according to my understanding at the time.).
I was willing to take on another guy’s kid(s) IN ADDITION to having my own…. but the deal I was offered, was to take them on INSTEAD OF having my own. I do know several guys who took that deal. Total wimps, I’m sorry to say. You DON’T want that.
My answer was, in effect, is “NO FUCKING WAY”. As is the case for most men. So you need to make it clear that you are thrilled with the idea of having more kids. Or you’ll get dumped over and over.
Rule 5. Don’t give up. I was 38 and my wife was 34 when we found each other on the internet.
No poofters. Note the spelling.
Good point about the kids.
Jenn: Did your father advice you to do these things or did you not ask or listen to his advice?
One of the problems for my generation was that the previous generation married, tended to marry virgins, had children within marriage and stayed married. They may not have been happy, but by and large life was tolerable and they had a bigger task than merely seeking personal happiness, namely bringing up the next generation; and thus I – and I am sure the same went for all my contemporaries – were never given any advice as to what to avoid when it comes to females. No one ever warned against dating single mums or divorcees, or sluts, (including those who were known to abort unwanted children); one was not told to cease dating any woman who showed passive-aggresive tendencies or who was otherwise personally manipulative; nor was one advised to avoid boyfriend or friend-zone status; and finally one was never given any advice given about marrying people from different cultures or classes, or to avoid marrying women who were older than one or who were noticably less well educated.
One had to learn the hard way. In other words one put too much emotional energy into women who were not, I am afraid to say, no matter how interesting or attractive, worthy of considered attention. No one ever explained to me, at least, that in marriage it is the man who is the prize or that being single does not make you a freak; and that for a man, time is on his side or indeed why that is so.
I only ever received two good pieces of advice, and so I will share these two gems:
1. It (meaning females) never goes away.
2. If she has done it once, (bad behaviour) she will do it again – so don’t give her that second opportunity.
It was van Rooinek’s above comment in response to Jenn that put me in mind of this.
Fact: She had plenty of opportunities her whole life to marry a worthy man. And she didn’t. As far as being date material, being a single mother has got to be the biggest flag. It’s a real-life evidence she goes for guys with a shitty attitude. What’s more unsettling is the people here trying to help her find a man to help raise her illegitimate children. I didn’t expect that from this place (for personal and moral reasons)…surely it would be humiliation to the guy being cuckolded, and wasting his resources.
sunshine: I only see people advicing her to evolve to overcome her mistakes and no advice on her masking her mistakes, without changing. And nobody here is encouraging men to support single mothers and their children, rather the opposite.
Opus, the greatest achievement of the feminist movement has been to convince men that they cannot expect to marry a virgin. And very few women, even in the Manosphere, want white weddings to mean what they used to any more.
@David Collard
The greatest achievement of the feminist movement – apart from providing hours of fun laughing at their absurdities by giving the Q36B Hamsterlator a work-out – is to convince men that most women are sluts (or otherwise damaged goods) whom it is not worth a man’s trouble treating as anything than pump and dump material – not if you value your sanity and your wallet. The model of what a marriagable woman should be just does not marry up to the empirical evidence – and the sad and tragic thing is that the women cannot see they are unmarriagable. It is that which I wish had been made plain to me when I embarked on man’s estate, but as I said; the women from my parents generation did broadly match the theory. Feminism is a player’s paradise: sex – and cheaper than with a prostitute!!
Sorry, I don’t think this kind of assistance in marrying off women who are only loyal about their own satisfaction is very kind to decent men. Women like this don’t deserve a faithful, honest man to follow, because chances are they walked away from plenty of them their whole life. And this is the bitter end.
The greatest achievement of the feminist movement was the liberation of women from the “need” to marry boring betas in order to survive. This was replaced with an alpha seed lottery that all women could play. That, in essence, sums up feminism and its motives.
Jenn:
I see a couple of things. van Rooinek had good advice.
Unlike tokyo, I’m not willing to leave you in the cold with no man — at least not yet. Let me see if I can help you out here. Like van Rooinek, I want to help. Uncle deti just wants to offer a few pointers.
1. I don’t get the sense that you’re all that serious about finding a husband. I think you’re only just now getting an idea of how daunting the task is before you. You need to get serious about it. NOW. With all due respect, you’re not doing much to make a very hard task any easier.
2. You have a cat, horses, a snake, and want a dog. NO. You have too many toys, too many financial encumbrances. GET RID of the horses and the snake. Don’t get a dog. You can keep the cat. Too many pets screams high maintenance, selfishness, and self-absorption. Horses are extremely expensive. So are dogs, and they need more care than cats. And the snake? Weird. Sorry, that’s just — no. Just NO.
All due respect: Grow up. You’re not 23 and single. You’re 34, a single mom, with a tough job and a child to support, and you’re looking for an LTR. You may have one, and ONLY one, pet. You may not have horses. You may not have snakes.
3. This:
“I genuinely get a kick out of guys and I gravitate towards hanging out with guys at work or in social situations because I feel more comfortable around men. I don’t hate women either unless they’re mean to me. I want a long term relationship and ultimately marriage but it’s more about the commitment and connection to me then it is the wedding.”
tells me volumes. there is so, so much here.
Generally there are two problems with women who hang out with men as “just friends” all the time:
a. You make it impossible for men to approach you. Men see you with other men all the time. Here’s what they see:
— One of the men she hangs with all the time is her husband or BF. Can’t tell who. Doesn’t matter.
— Cockblockers as far as the eye can see. Too hard.
b. Such women tend to act like men. They don’t tend toward the feminine in speech, manner or dress. Jenn, there are few things less attractive to men than a woman who acts, talks, and/or looks like a man.
Second, you want an LTR but not necessarily a husband. Too ambiguous. Firm this up. Either you want to get married or you don’t. Decide what you want, and move towards it with singular purpose. LTR is too vague, too ambiguous, and too easy to end if things get tough. If you only want an LTR but not marriage, expect disappointment.
4. You need to do everything you can to make it easy for a man to approach and get to know you. You also need to demonstrate in word and deed that finding and getting a worthy man is a prime priority in your life.
a. Show him what you can offer him. Cook for him. Clean his place. Take care of him.
b. Make it easy for him. Show him you are interested. Ask him out. Show interest in him OVERTLY and EXPLICITLY.
c. Make it clear that your child is YOUR responsibility, not his. But if you marry, you MUST make it clear to your child that your husband IS the man of the house and she WILL obey him. Your husband will be your child’s de facto father. She must obey him. “You’re not my father!” and “I don’t have to listen to YOU!” will NOT fly — not for one minute. If your daughter can’t abide that, send her to live with her father.
Your marriage must come first — even before your children. Yeah, I said it — I am and should be more important to my wife than my children are.
d. Do all you can to improve your physical appearance, and lower your standards for a man. By this latter statement I don’t mean put up with crappy behavior for a man. I mean you’re not going to get high-attractive men. Truth: You won’t get George Clooney or Mr. Moneybags. Men like them have more women than they know what to do with. You will NEVER get a man like that for an LTR or marriage. You’re too old and you have a kid. Sorry if it sounds brutal, but them’s the facts.
Jenn:
Another thing about hanging out with men all the time: I suspect some of what’s going on here is you have a lot of beta orbiters. I suspect you have them because you relish the attention these men give you. There are generally three kinds of beta orbiters:
1. men who are interested in you but are either too timid to approach you and express that interest overtly. But those men hang with you because they hope if they stay around long enough or do enough things for you, then you will eventually notice what great guys they are and reciprocate with sexual interest.
2. men who have expressed interest in you but you have told them “Let’s just be friends” or some variation thereof. Like 1. above, they orbit you in the hope that someday you’ll reconsider and couple with them sexually.
3. men who genuinely aren’t interested in you sexually. You think they help you, but they don’t because they cockblock for you and make it tougher for worthy men to approach you.
@Deti, thanks for the advice. I mostly spent time around men because I work in a male dominated field. I will keep the blocking in mind and be mindful not to do that. I will also keep putting more of an effort into my appearance. The horses are free for me to keep but I can see your point and how someone would assume that they encumber me. I come from a farm and I live in a semi rural community so it’s common that people have small farms or horses in my city.
@van Rooinek I do wish I had not wasted those years on that man and you have a very good point.
I’m not looking to marry for looks or for status or a George Clooney type or anything like that. I would like to marry for love. I would love to cook someone’s favorite meals and keep a happy household and be a good companion to someone. I’m also not looking to short change some guy out of the life he wants so there’s no need for manipulation.
Today I’m going to a social function so I’ll try to look nice as there are quite a few single dads that attend.
I appreciate the insight. I’m not going to argue in favor of feminism or defend myself against being a slut or not deserving a husband etc. I dislike the state of affairs that the world is in too because of the feminist movement. I haven’t had a ton of opportunities of great guys that I just threw away.
Thanks for the insights and point of views.
“I mostly spent time around men because I work in a male dominated field. I will keep the blocking in mind and be mindful not to do that.”
The way “not to do that” is to stop hanging around so many men that you’re not dating. You aren’t doing the blocking. The men are, whether they intend to or not; whether you intend for them to do so or not.
A woman who surrounds herself with platonic men unintentionally puts cockblockers all around her.
Jenn, you are getting some good advice. I recognize that this will be bitter medicine to swallow. but I’ve seen deti and van Rooinek give advice for a while. I believe that they have your best interests in mind, and therefore everyone’s best interest. We are all in this together. God be with you.
The following are acceptable pets for a woman:
1. felines.
2. canines.
3. non-carnivore fish (NOT piranhas or similar fish).
You shall NOT refer to your pets as “your children” or “your babies”. You may NOT refer to yourself as your pet’s “mommy” or “mom” or “Mother”. They are NOT children. They are nonsentient animals.
You shall NOT speak baby-talk to your pets.
You shall have no more than two of the above identified quadriped mammals as pets. They shall not be named “Fluffy” or “Honey” or “Beautiful” and you shall definitely not have a chihuahua named “Bruiser”. In fact, you shall not own a chihuahua.
Male animals shall have masculine names. Female animals shall have feminine names.
You shall not carry any animal in a purse at any time. You shall not own a pet small enough to carry in a purse.
Canines and felines shall be kept as pets. They shall be immediately spayed or neutered as soon as they are old enough. Felines shall be declawed.
The following are not acceptable pets for a woman (or for anyone, for that matter):
— reptiles.
— amphibians.
— rodents.
— primates.
— insects.
— porcines.
— arachnids.
— birds.
b. Such women tend to act like men. They don’t tend toward the feminine in speech, manner or dress. Jenn, there are few things less attractive to men than a woman who acts, talks, and/or looks like a man.
I see this as the #1 problem with today’s female. There is NOTHING that turns a man off faster than this….. otherwise we would be gay. Loud, obnoxious, cursing women….YUCK. Check back on these girls in a few years. Old, wrinkled, alone.
Deti
Gotta break with you on some of the pet advice. A very large amount of what you listed is obviously personal preference. Sure I agree generally with what kind of pets to have and not have but even that is not a rigid line. I knew a woman who maintained a veritable zoo on her property, literally, acres of cool animals, inside and out, it was fascinating, and in no way off putting.
I agree with the male names male dogs too.
But not having a small dog is like some kind of alpha proclamation. I wonder what you’d say to a man with a small dog.
Little dogs are great, talking to dogs is fine, this is just preference, not sound advice across male and female dating population. Usually you hit excellent socio psychological behavioral issues that are really sound advice, this one, again, is maybe your preference
I agree, that pet advice is really thinking too far ahead.
Good luck with it Jenn. I think single-dads are probably your best match.
@deti I totally love your pet rules lol. Nothing is more sickening then someone with a dog in a purse who calls it a pet name and refers to it as a child.
If the snake was an obstacle to a relationship he would be re-homed. All my animals have human names suitable to their gender haha. My cat is Mary, snake is Michael, horse is Holly.
@daringhart I’m not a denim suspender wearing, tobacco chewing, short hair cut sportin, cussin, spitting dyke type lol. I have long, blonde wavy hair, I’m generally soft spoken and shy, I wear appropriate girl style clothes. Today I’m going to add some pink to the wardrobe.
@empathologicalism Thanks for your take on pets. Animals are just a part of my life and I try to be a realistic about it. Everyone has their hobbies, interests and preferences, I just happen to be a farm girl who is knowledgeable about and fond of the animal kingdom.
Well, I’m going to run pick up something cute to wear and head to this social function, I attend as many group activities as I can to try and meet people. One of the single dads has the same kind of snake I do for his daughter and we’re in the same field so I wont lie that there is a bit of an interest there on my part so I’ll make an effort to be approachable and sweet to him today if he’s attending.
Thanks again to all the men who’ve offered your perspectives :).
So it’s been pointed out to me that Clint Eastwood owned an orangutan in one of his movies.
Clint Eastwood may portray a character owning a primate because he is Clint Eastwood.
In fact, Clint Eastwood may own any pet he wants. Because he is Clint Eastwood.
And also — you may not own a rodent as a pet. You already have a hamster.
the pet advice is for fun and entertainment. Hopefully we in the manosphere can laugh a little.
maybe I can take over as court jester if Great Books for Men ever hangs it up. Whatcha think, Dalrockarocka lotsa cocka?
lzozllzozlll.
Deti, amazed at your animal prejudices! Both my guy and I had all sorts of pets as children, and I’d love a snake now.
Is it the norm to declaw cats where you live? It’s illegal in the UK.
Lily:
YOu can declaw cats where I live; most do, some don’t. Vets will declaw a cat’s front claws only, not the rear. Recommended if it’s an indoor cat; but not recommended for cats that ever go outdoors. Outdoor cats should keep their claws so they can climb trees to escape predators.
Live in a semi rural area?
Sell one of the pets, buy a weapon and take up shooting. Go to the range often. Always wear a skirt.
Out of the box thinking. . .
The comment on the cat was a observation brought up by a woman friend of which my experience mirrored (ie pets are just like their owners).
She made a observation that of her females friends – the females that own cats are more solitary and cruel to guys (again my experience also).
This is a IMO- women that have cats are not relationship material – they tend to be loners vs women that own dogs. Women who own dogs are much more friendly and realistic.
Dont shot the messenger.
@ Jenn – Given that you own a horse which is a expense and a lifestyle and want a guy with the same – good luck.
If you are at least a 7-8 you are competing against 8-10’s for the same guys which are very very few- again good luck.
Any woman in their 30’s trying to find a decent guy in that range – good luck.
Men in that range with/without kids in their 30’s and early 40’s call the shots and have plenty to choose from.
A buddy of mine became a widower at 40. He was married to a 28 year old with 2 kids (scale of 10) within 2 years. He now regrets it – though he has a great wife – the other kids and the ex-husband are a ongoing hassle.
Jenn,
@daringhart I’m not a denim suspender wearing, tobacco chewing, short hair cut sportin, cussin, spitting dyke type lol. I have long, blonde wavy hair, I’m generally soft spoken and shy, I wear appropriate girl style clothes. Today I’m going to add some pink to the wardrobe.
LOL…..I’m very glad to hear you’re not that far gone. What Michael says above is unfortunately all too true for women in that age range. I bleed for his buddy…..I have a couple in the same situation; they literally hate their lives. They look like dead men walking.
DISCLAIMER: I’m new to this blog….however, I can tell you that I used to be a diehard romantic. Most men learn the hard way that it gets you nowhere……and find unknown happiness in walking away from the game. The common retort is “do you want to die alone?” ……ummmm, ladies…..everyone dies alone. What most women don’t realize is that we would like to spend the remaining years ENJOYING LIFE…… not being nagged, told we don’t do enough or going without sex.
As Michael says above……we run the show now…… we date the 20somethings…..all the way to older women. And we like the carefree, nagless life 😉
Yes its normal to declaw cats though there are the predictable objectors who act like we are taking their eyes out. it may be illegal in California and Madison Wisconsin…
Empath de-clawing a cat would be the equivalent of cutting off your fingers. They dont just take the claw they rip out the ligaments and tendons that attach them to the musculoskeletal system. How would you like it if someone did that to you, just for their convenience? if you cant handle a properly clawed cat you cant handle a cat.
I can only speak for myself, but I am one of the “older” men who has chosen not to pursue women with the idea of marriage.
I am a 45 year old blue-collared worker. I make a modest yearly net income after taxes in the southeastern part of the United States, and my occupation has been recession proof so far due to it can’t be outsourced, and the can be considered one of the true lifelines of everyday 24 hour/7 day a week America. I was a single parent for 6 of the past 11 years till my son graduated from high school in 2010, who is now of on his own serving our country as a member of the U.S. Army.
I was married once for about 4 years and had to D.T.B. due to the ex-wife applying the skills on how to get married, but did not want to apply the skills needed to keep a marriage. And my son’s mother knew how to get pregnant, but did not want to practice apply the skills needed to get married, so she did not get called up to the majors.
I went on a 32 month break from dating back during my separation, divorce, and it continued till I felt I was ready to date again, and now I’m rolling into my 15th month of being on another and maybe a permanent hiatus after being back into the dating game since winter late fall of 2009. I tried to give black American women of my age range a chance to share my life with, but all I got in return was tons and tons of baggage dumped onto my cloud 9 and was demanded to either handle it or hit the road. I tried to date women in their early 30’s, but what I was running into was women who were 30ish going on 17, and demanding the universe to revolve around them and wanting a “strong black man” to make it happen for them, all in the name of maybe having the p***sy offered to them when asked.
Men like myself who have kept their s**t straight, stayed true to themselves and our offsprings, and did what we needed to do to become good catches for worthy women, just to have nothing more than women with mental issues, priority displacements, unexplainable and inexcusable financial debt, unrealistic marital/dating expectations, and unaligned views of parenting walk in and out of our lives looking for a man who does not exist nor would be willing to ask for their hands in marriage.
So now, I just keep myself a small stable of platonic female buddies for those moments I need a last minute female wing man for a locale or distant outing. Reversing the whole “friend zone” game can be a man’s best friend, because it takes all of the so called power away from women. From a distance they come off as “good” catches, but with me being on the inside, I can tell you that they ain’t worth the trouble, energy, time, resources, and mental headaches and heartache. But they all think they are well deserving. One is a weed-head, big f**king deal you’re a V.P. at a major bank. One has sex for sport, because that’s all she thinks men are good for. One has such high expectations that I know there is no man on this earth can meet even half of them, but at the same time she brings nothing to the table, but herself and her sorry p**sy. (I had the chance to sample it; a waste of a good condom and hard-on) One stands 5’6” and weighs over 250lbs, but wants only a man who’s in shape and works out regularly. One is in debt of over $100,000 and was before she just purchased a house and a new SUV a few months ago. And one is starting to develop the signs and symptoms of per-menapouse, but demands for any man she dates needs to stay on hard, have “staying power”, and must be longer than her hand!!
Now, I’m no paymaster or sugar-daddy by the long shot, but there are those events you share with the fellas, and there are those events you would like to share with a women. The head-dicks-in-charge at work are almost always giving away free tickets or discount coupons for eateries and etc, and I ain’t got no shame in taking them off their hands or ask if their are any floating around if needed or wanted. Do the “friends” know, nope cause it ain’t their business!
And that’s how things are going stay, cause I’m not being bothered with wasting what good few brain cells and patience I have left.
wow…some of these comments sound like they are coming from 1920s or smt. hello, do any of you know that most athletes have their peaks in mid 30s? 30s are pretty awesome…it has its own challenges, just like 20s had their own challenges,– for women per se. Bu we gotta wake up. Of course, a large number of men will wanna be wid 20 years old youngies..cuz most of those girls will be more obedient (sexually, intellectually, and socially), more agreeing, less confident.. and the list goes on as you can imagine. Besides, some women in their 30s ‘just havent yet’ met anyone. this is not necessarily because they are looking for Mr.perfect, or because they did some things wrong!! no..everyone’s life and life-path is different. as a person who did event history analysis and multiple-regression, SAS, and all that, let me tell you stats are not always the objective truth you so assume them to be. we indeed created the chi-square, and gave it threshold values…so leave all that stat stuff. this is your life. you havent met anyone you wanted to marry or you did but he dumped you, or smt happened along the way. It is alright!!! Women that I know who are in their 40+ and unmarried is single because they wanted to be single. it is a choice. Mostly…If you wanna get married, you will. And please dont listen to anyone who tell you to settle. cuz: you dont wanna get divorced!!! yes?? I am now 32, and i think i look better than ever. Besides, fahsion is much cuter compared to 1998s. We can now wear 6 inch heels and run in them, Amen to platforms. A woman is pretty when she thinks she is pretty, and acts it. Dont let anyone tell you, you are les desirable cuz you are in your 30s..makes me real mad!! Plus, there is something super important: beauty can actually be an obstacle to finding a marriage partner, while an average attractiveness can be an asset. but that is for another time.
I understand that women in their 20s have the most choice/power when it comes to marriage and LRTs, but that doesn’t mean, as one of the posters stated, “that a woman over 30 is unmarriageable.” If that were the case, then how do you explain how there are 30 thirty something women in ltrs or engaged to be married to men WITHIN their own age group? Men within their age group who are educated, attractive, successful and have never been married or had kids? If the thirty something woman is able and willing to offer all the above traits (and many are) then why is it so unfathomable to some that she could (and often does) find a match with such a man? And if she does, why does there seem to be an assumption that she has somehow “tricked” him, or that he will eventually wake up and leave her? All because she has past the age of 30? And is thus now “worthless” or “expired” in the eyes of some? This judgement seems to be an acceptable form of prejudice and sadly justified as being, “just the way things are,” according to some. However, if a woman were to assess a man’s worth by his height or bank account she would be judged as shallow at best and likely with a barrage of other insults at worst. How is ageism towards women any different? And why does it seem to be acceptable? I actually know of men in their 30’s who prefer women within their own age group and who do not exclusively pursue women in their 20s. Not all women in their in 30s are the same, just as not all men in their 30s are the same. Why make sweeping generalizations that may not apply to everyone?
Perspective:
Generally, if a woman in this SMP makes it to age 30 as an unmarried or divorced woman it’s for one or more of the following reasons. This generally makes her unmarriageable unless she does a rapid about-face:
1. She’s a carousel rider (the most common reason). This means she’s a slut who has had a fair amount of sex, but not much else, with a number of hot alpha studs.
2. She has “issues” which prevent her from forging and sustaining healthy relationships.
3. She put her career/job ahead of her social life.
4. She already has at least one failed marriage.
I suspect the women in their 30s in LTRs or engaged to men of a similar age group are outliers, and that you are talking about your own experience or “Sex and the City”. What you are describing is not common or typical among single women in this age range. Most women in their 30s in the dating scene are horrifically dissatisfied with what they see as slim pickings. They can’t pull the hot men anymore. Their choices are limited to schlubby men, divorced men 10+ years older, or relatively undistinguished, unaccomplished men who they outearn.
A 30+ YO woman is not worthless or “expired” — at least not always. But her sexual market value and marriage market value are simply not as high as a woman in her 20s. This is almost universally true.
Generalizations are useful because they are generally true. If we could not use generalizations, we could not make it through our world, or live, or make reasonable predictions. There will never be generalizations that apply to everyone. There are always outliers, oddballs, exceptions that prove the rule. That’s what you describe: exceptions to the rule.
Women do assess men by their heights and their bank accounts. Women do this every day in this SMP. There are many women who won’t date a man who is not taller than she. There are many women who want men for their money.
Deti, thanks for your response but I’m going to have to disagree with you on a few points.
1. In response to the “carousel rider,” comment I actually know of single women in their 30s who are actually still virgins. Yes, you heard right-virgins. They do still exist and not just in religions and culures where it is required to abstain from sex until marriage.
2. As for your stance about some women having issues, I would agree partly with you there, but at the same time, I think some of the reasons for their issues stem from traumatic events that occured in their lives such as physical and emotional abuse, child molestation, rape, and so forth. These issues “that prevent her from forging and sustaining healthy relationships,” can take years of intense therapy and work towards healing; an arduous processs that may very well take into her 30s and beyond. Luckily a lot of these women are able to emerge strong and resilient, but instead of being respected for it, they’re often judged and disdained and called crazy, psycho b*%tches for things that happened to them which they had no control over. How is that right or fair?
3. Many men complain about how a lot of women are gold diggers, and that they expect to just a find a man to take care of them. Since most women with a reasonably good head on their shoulders do not want to be perceived this way, they work very hard at becoming independant. Some may have also been late bloomers and didn’t have a chance to attend college until later, so they may find themselves working long hours at entry level jobs in their late 20s+ if they ever hope to move up and attain financial security. Times are tough, and they also may very well be burdened with heavy responsibilities that demand a lot of their time, energy, and money.
A very obvious point I feel you left out is that there are women who actually wish to remain single. Perhaps they’ve been in previous relationship(s) and realized a relationship is not for them and they would rather just go at it alone. I’d also like to add that the desire for some women to remain single, is not just because they wish to sleep with as many ” hot alpha males” as possible, but because some women get to a point where they lose all interest in sex and most men simply would not tolerate being in a relationship where it’s limited or even non existent.
While I did say in my previous post that I understand women in 20s have the most options when it comes to marriage, I disagree with you that women in their 30s who are in LTRs or engaged to men of their own age groups are just exceptions. It may not be they norm, but not quite exceptions eithers as there are still many30+ women who find themselves in such unions. If they’re fit, attractive, take care themselves, are independant, successful and educated and can ofer all the traits they want in their partners, they why not? You are incorrect in thinking I was referring to “Sex and the City,” or my own experiences. I’m single and about to turn 29, so I’m close to my 30s, but not quite yet. If I have to marry a man 10+ plus years older than me, I don’t see that as “slim pickings,” I actually find myself attracted to older men (and, no I don’t have daddy issues) and unless a man is divorced because he was a cheater or abusive, doesn’t mean his next marriage is fated to be like his first. A lot of second marriages are happy, successful and long lasting.
Why is that when a woman indicates a preference for a man who is finacially stable and taller than she, she’s often berated for being shallow, while it seems to be socially acceptable to judge a woman on her weight, looks and age and then to justify it with so-called “scientific research and evidence.” I don’t see anything wrong with preferences, as long they are not the main factor for selecting a mate. A man might prefer a younger, slim, attractive woman but it shouldn’t be the MAIN reason he wants to be with her. A woman might prefer a tall and financially secure man, but that also shouldn’t be the MAIN factor in her choosing to be with him.
nesrin-TR, do you really believe that you are more attractive to men at age 32 than you were at age 20? Ok, maybe 20 is too young of a comparison because that age is too young for a lot of men in their 30s to seriously consider dating. However, compare yourself at 32 versus yourself at age 25 and I think you’ll find that most men would prefer the 25-year-old you versus the 32-year-old you.
Obviously men care about a woman’s character, however, a woman’s physical attractiveness is a an important factor than men consider when determining whom to date or settle down with. Men weigh physical attractiveness more highly than anything else when looking at a woman. You might think that this is superficial, but women certainly don’t seem to have a problem taking advantage of this when they are young and hot – they only start to complain about it when their level of attention starts dropping as they age. Of course, women are also incredibly superficial themselves as many of them are hypercritical about a man’s income or even fashion sense.
You wrote, “Of course, a large number of men will wanna be wid 20 years old youngies..cuz most of those girls will be more obedient (sexually, intellectually, and socially), more agreeing, less confident.. and the list goes on as you can imagine.” I noticed that you neglected to mention that the younger women are more physically attractive than their older peers. This is universally true unless perhaps the woman was really fat in her 20s and then lost the weight in her 30s or had surgery to fix some type of hideous physical deformity. Also, most men prefer women who are agreeable as opposed to those who are combative and abrasive, as many allegedly “confident” women in their mid-30s tend to be.
You also wrote, “A woman is pretty when she thinks she is pretty, and acts it.” I have to disagree with you – a woman is pretty when men think she is pretty and few men think that women get prettier with age.
Younger mothers recover their looks after childbirth. Older mothers most often don’t. Hollywood stars don’t count. Average women can’t drop six figures a year on trainers and nutritionists.
One of the smartest guys I know married a 15 year old girl when he was 31. Yeah, I know, but she was mature for her age, her parents approved, and indeed, had raised her to expect it. Anyway, “more obedient (sexually, intellectually, and socially), more agreeing [sic],” are positives for men, not negatives. She bore him 3 kids before she was 20, and now they’re putting her through law school at 40. She looks great, and has two beautiful grandbabies when stupid women her own age with shriveling ovaries are fishing through the reject pile and shrieking about the lack of marriageable men.
It all depends on whether you want to work with Nature or against her.
Perspective:
1. I agree there are 30 YO + virgins. I believe you know some of them. I know of one. They are exceptions and outliers. Most women in this SMP don’t make it to age 3o without at least one sex partner.
2. I agree there are some women to whom terrible things have happened; it was not their fault, and they have to spend prime marriageable years getting well. That’s not who I was talking about, but no matter. It is not fair or right. But that’s not the point. The point is whether such women are suitable wives and mothers. The point is whether they are and can be attracted to men who will marry them; whether they can handle the rigors and pressures of marriage and motherhood; whether they can withstand the natural good times and bad times of marriage without bailing out; whether they can understand their own hypergamous natures and not succumb to them when something or someone better comes along; and whether they can give their husbands good, regular sex at reasonable intervals without either losing their minds or becoming harpie nags.
3. As for women becoming independent and earning their own money: Women need to make their choices, just as men do. If women choose to earn their own money and become career oriented to the detriment of a social life and love life, or even to its exclusion; that is their choice. That choice comes with consequential tradeoffs. The tradeoff is that young marriage will be out of the question; and that career women will have to take whatever is left and whoever is willing to marry them, if and when they decide to marry. Or they will simply have to forgo marriage altogether.
I have no problem with women wanting to make career a priority. But individual women must realize that when that decision is made, she excludes many good men because she won’t be attracted to many good men; and because she simply won’t have the time to pursue romantic relationships. You cannot have it all, all at once. Or you can have it all, just not all at the same time.
(Spare me the “you can’t handle a strong independent woman” speech. It’s not that men can’t handle such women; it’s that a relationship with such a woman isn’t worth the effort, hassle and headache. Contrary to what the feminist overlords teach, a job, a salary, connections, and educational pedigree does NOT make a woman more attractive.)
I also have no problem with women deciding not to marry. That, again, is their choice. I suspect these are not the women from whom we read the articles bemoaning the lack of “good men”. The women who write these articles and about whom they are written are women of whom I spoke earlier: They passed up good men when they were younger; rode the carousel; then stepped off or were kicked off. They stand around blinkered, genuinely flummoxed that a phalanx of hot alpha males isn’t kneeling before them with 2 carat rocks and pledging their undying love. These women really think they can have any man they want and that they are as attractive at 32 as they were at 24. They can’t and they’re not. The men they passed up 5, 6, 7 years earlier are either married to other women; divorced; or have given up altogether.
You say you think 30 YO + women in LTRs and marriages are more common than “exceptions”. You are still really talking about your experience. I will admit that the age of first marriage is creeping upwards for men and women, but it’s still under 30. Most people who ever get married, are married by 30. Also, you’re focusing on a woman’s career as an attraction point. It is not. A fit, attractive woman can still marry at 30 or even 35. The problem is that most women at 30 or 35 are not fit and are not nearly as attractive as they were in their early 20s.
The most important attraction factors for women are looks and youth, with pleasing personality being a distant third. If she can’t attract him, she’ll never meet him, much less date him or keep him. The most important attraction factors for men are confidence and dominance. It is perfectly acceptable for men to judge women on looks, age and weight. Women judge men all the time on their confidence and dominance. I can’t tell you how many women rejected me outright “just because”. I know now it was because I lacked confidence and social dominance. I don’t blame women for this attraction point; it just is. Women should not blame men for wanting looks and youth. It just is.
Perspective, you really don’t know much about this SMP. I suggest you keep reading.
Again: It is all about choices. Women have wide ranges of choices in this SMP. Nearly every young woman can find a basically suitable man to marry. The problems are these:
1. Most young women learn early on that they can use their sexual attractiveness to extract things from men.
2. Most young women learn early that they can use sex to get what they want.
3. Most young women learn they can get sex from hot alpha males. Many of them try to parlay that hot alpha sex into a relationship with him. Most get little more than an STR of 3 months duration or less; or a spot in a rotating harem. She doesn’t realize that he can get sex not only from her; but also from women like her. She ends up getting sex, but not much else.
4. Women don’t know the difference between their sexual market value, which is usually a point or two higher than their marriage market value.
5. Most young women know of two or three beta men who would be overjoyed to have them as wives; but the women turn up their noses at these men, coldly rejecting them. She could have at least one beta who would wife her up in a heartbeat, but she doesn’t want him because he’s not as attractive or good looking or sexy as the hot alpha males she can have sex with, but who will never marry her.
If young women could understand these things, they’d be much happier and more contented in their lives.
Every point Deti makes stands to reason though one thing I would add is that the biggest change in SMV for women over 30 is that the the SMV of men has risen and created equilibrium. The difference between the woman in her early 20s and the one in her early 30s is that the younger one can often get marriage on her terms whereas the 30 year old woman is probably going to marry an older man than the 20 year old will be. He will most likely not allow her to ride rough shod over him and there will have to be some give and take.
Women over 30 are not categorically doomed to spinsterhood and cats. That is hyperbole. At 30 the days of marriage are not over, the days of men doing all the work trying to attract you, likely are. You need to have something to bring to the table other than just your pozzle.
“You need to have something to bring to the table other than just your pozzle.” – koevoet
It’s amazing to me how many women don’t want to learn that men in general want more out of a man than what’s between her legs. There’s life after you put your clothes back on. I think if women took dating and relationships more serious than their nails, hair, clothing, how to please their inner “me”, they would be a lot more satisfied.
There are too many people making money off of making women feel bad about themselves. Reinforcing women’s low self-esteem and making them continue to be unsure about themselves is a billion dollor business.
Take a look around, women feeling bad about themselves and needing that next “IT” = $$$$$
Ya cause that’s what anglo women need, bigger egos.
-@ deti
The game is called, “Trying to fix/change an Alpha Male.”
What normally happens when an Alpha male becames a Beta male or an Omega male, then woman tends to complain that his is not the man he was in the past, then begins to pursue new Alpha males.
Normally Omega males are Alpha males who have grown up and have learned that (1) that daggers knifed in the back are just as bad as daggers knifed in the front, (2) bastard children and ex-wives/girlfriends tend to know the perfect time to reappear, and it’s normally at a time you least expect and need, (3) very few people attend Alpha male funerals once they leave this earth.
Pingback: Toronto. A city under seige. SMP related? « M3
Churches can be a good place to meet men. You shouldn’t go just to ‘game’ a religious guy if you don’t have faith. But if you are a person of faith, or would like to learn, go there and be honest with people about where you are in your beliefs. There are churches that focus a lot on marriage and family. A lot of these churches believe in traditional roles for men and women.
Speaking of that, an eligible woman might be able to attract men if she says at one of these churches, talking to a a friend and says in earshot of several men, “I would like to find a man who would love me that I could submit to.” 🙂
These women don’t deserve advice. They turned down all of the good ones already when they were younger, they’ve passed the top and now they’re going to “enjoy” the bottom. I’m 26 and I have these sad excuses for women hitting on me, not a single bit interested when I can pick up 19-22 year olds in a heart beat. You wasted your lives on yourselves, selfish ladies! Have fun being in a miserable marriage because you were forced to settle.
Dalrock, just curious about your advice in which you suggest women in their 30’s consider men younger than them. I found it interesting you would offer this piece of advice as most people on internet forums and in real life tend to suggest that women in their 30’s should consider men who are 10+ yrs older than them, as most the 30+ women’s peers are either already taken or are looking for women in their 20’s if they’re still single.
“The other group of men I would consider are men younger than you and/or men who would traditionally have been marriageable in their 20s but essentially dropped out of the dating/marriage market due to lack of interest from women their own age.”
Perspective, Sep 23 at 11:17 pm:
Yes, It’s true that most advise a woman in her 30s to seek men 10+ years older. But the issue is what a woman is willing to do in this SMP to meet an attractive man for possible marriage. She needs to widen her attraction filters and consider men she might not otherwise consider. That probably includes younger men (though not too much younger).
Deti,
Yes, that makes sense about a woman needing to “widen her attraction filters and consider men she might not otherwise consider.” But I just found it interesting and yet somewhat contradictory at the same time. I mean on one hand, it’s nice to see that some people are open and tolerant to older woman/younger man relationships, as opposed to the usual judgement, hypocrisy, mockery, disdain, shaming, scorn, Me Tarzan-you Jane/Fred Flintstone sentiments, etc. But at the same time, how is it that some people who pretty much tell women in their 30’s that they have a snow ball’s chance in hell of finding a man their own age, but would then encourage them to be “open” to men who are younger than them? If most men prefer younger women, then wouldn’t a younger man (unless he likes older women) be even more resistant to an older woman than a man her own age?
I found it interesting yet surprising that Dalrock who seems to have pretty traditional and conservative views when it comes to relationships, spoke approvingly when he commented about a OW/YM couple him whom he stated he and his wife once met and said, “my wife and I met a couple on a cruise a few years back who were newlyweds. The wife was in her early to mid 30s and the husband was in his mid 20s. He was a bit on the husky side (in an athletic way), but was extremely smart, funny, and had excellent natural game. I think they will be very happy together.”
If the husband in question is in his mid 20’s, that would make him 24-26. And the wife is in her early to mid 30’s, she could be 30-36. Dalrock didn’t specify exact ages, but the age range could mean as little as a 4 year age difference or even as much 12. Although I have a feeling it’s probably closer to the latter, which is usually considered a whole lot when the woman happens to be the older partner. And yet, even Dalrock seems to be fine with it. Again, great to see some open-mindedness (unfortunately, I tend to see the opposite on this forum) but I’m still confused by how it seems to contradict some of the other seemingly closely held views that I’ve come across on this forum about the kinds of men women over 30 are able to attract. How much is generally considered too much younger? As in, when the older woman will not be referred to as a “cougar,” “cradle robber,” and the younger man will not be accused having an oedipal complex or just being in it for the sex?
The problem for older-woman + younger-man pairs is that it not stable in the long-term.
The “market value” of a 35-year-old woman and a 25-year-old man are similar. But the trajectories are very different. A 35-year-old woman’s SMV already peaked 10+ years ago and will only decline further. But a 25-year-old’s man will probably be higher in ten years.
If they marry, after fifteen years she will be an old hag, but he will be capable of dating women twenty years younger than his wife.
Note that the opposite is true when the man is ten years older than the woman: their respective SMVs will continue to rise and fall mostly in tandem.
Greenlander,
I’m well aware and familiar with of the all points you’ve mentioned and I’ve read and heard these sentiments expressed many times over. However, the questions in my post refer to men who encourage older woman/younger man relationship- not about the issues surrounding these types of relationships.
I suppose you’re entitled to your opinion, but I don’t think it’s necessary to refer to older women as “old hags.” A woman (and many men for that matter) may lose some of the physical/sexual attractiveness as they had in their youth, but that does not mean they will sudenly turn hideous when they get older. And before I’m accused of going some feminist rant, I’d like to add that I find the disparaging remarks I’ve heard about aging men such as “old f&%!s,” and wrinkly you know what, equally as disgusting and demeaning as some of the vitriol I hear about aging women.
A woman who waits to the end of her prime (or later) will always face problems, she will on average never marry as well as she could have 10 years earlier. A good looking (and still well preserved at mid forties) woman I know always had high status boyfriends (stock broker, AR at a big label, handball professional, professional musician etc.) and finally met and married a younger guy at 30 (him being 25), who had a crush on her already when he was 20. But they never had any kids, she being of low fertility, probably due to her earlier life style.
“As in, when the older woman will not be referred to as a “cougar,” “cradle robber,” and the younger man will not be accused having an oedipal complex or just being in it for the sex?”
For the relation to happen on average and typically these statements will be true. An older woman has to be more aggressive. And a young man in this situation will typically fall into either the stereotype of a) wanting to be led and/or nurtured by a woman, or b) not wanting anything serious and looking for other options (younger, more fertile women) for marriage.
There are seldom relations between the opposites of these stereotypes, i.e. an older woman who is not sexually aggressive and a younger man who wants to start a family and is willing and able to lead.
Most men I know who have had relations with older women had these in the beginning of their “sexual careers”, when they had less options and were hornier and less discriminate.
Perspective:
Sorry, I guess I don’t see what your point is. If you are surprised there are a few men in the manosphere who don’t automatically denigrate OW/YM couplings, I guess I can see that. Green is right that they aren’t stable in the long run. I would add that that instability increases depending on the age difference between her and him. It will be more difficult if she is 10 years older than if she is only 2 years older. As they both age, her physical attractiveness will decline much faster than his will. OK, fine. If both are willing to accept this, and there is not a wide age difference, and they both seem compatible, and they both have some productive years, I see no great difficulty with a 30+ YO woman coupling with a man a little younger than she is.
It seems you’re talking about the opposition generally to OW/YM pairings expressed in the manosphere. Yes, it exists. There are good reasons for it. So what? I ask again: What is an over 30 woman willing to do to try to find a suitable partner? Maybe she should be willing to widen her attraction filters to consider younger men, less physically attractive men, men who earn less money than she’s accustomed to, men who live lives quite different from what she is accustomed to. Maybe she should adjust her lifestyle instead of expecting everyone to accommodate hers. Maybe she should be thankful and grateful for what she can get, instead of grousing and complaining about what she passed over or what didn’t work out. Maybe she could have married better 10 years ago. But she passed him over and snubbed him; or she moved away to take a better job, or he just wasn’t that important to her then.
The funny thing is that nearly every one of these 30+ women could have been married to a fine man earlier. Every single woman who comes on these threads and every one I’ve talked to in my entire life has a regret about that great guy or those wonderful men who loved her to the ends of the earth and would have done anything for her, and even proposed marriage to her, but it just couldn’t be for whatever superficial reason. It’s always expressed as:
“Oh, he loved me, but he was like a brother to me.”
“He wasn’t good looking enough.”
“He was a goody two shoes. He wasn’t a fun, exciting bad boy.”
“I just wasn’t in a good place.”
“I needed something for me before I could share it with him.”
“It just didn’t work out.”
“I needed to find myself.”
“My career was important.”
“I wanted to have fun first.”
The point of this post was advice to a woman in her 30s looking to marry. The sticking point is that when a woman hits 30 as a never married woman, her options have already been steadingly shrinking; and continue to shrink with each passing month. She has no time to waste if she wants to find a suitable mate.
Ladies: Marriage is either important to you, or it’s not. Decide whether it is or isn’t, and then formulate a plan to get for yourselves whatever it is you decide you want. The rub is that you don’t get to complain later when it doesn’t work out exactly as you planned.
And another thing:
I suspect there are a lot of 30 + women thinking that when they decide to marry, some hot alpha stud she used to have sex with when she was 23 will reappear in her life after a lengthy absence by reconnecting through Facebook. He will alight to her on bended knee with a ring and a pledge of eternal love.
This is pure fantasy. It’s not going to happen.
Ladies, for the 65,886,543rd time:
WHEN YOU WERE IN YOUR EARLY 20s, YOU PROBABLY COULD HAVE SNAGGED A MAN LIKE THIS WHO WAS IN HIS LATE 20s OR EARLY 30s. BUT YOU SNUBBED HIM AND LAUGHED AT HIM WHEN HE ASKED YOU OUT. YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE. YOU BLEW IT. HE IS ALREADY MARRIED TO SOMEONE ELSE. YOU COULD HAVE DONE BETTER WHEN YOU WERE YOUNGER. IT IS TOO LATE FOR THAT NOW. YOU WILL NOW HAVE TO ACCEPT WHAT YOU CAN GET.
Deti,
My point, or rather my question as I previously asked, was how is it that some in the Manosphere tell a woman in her 30’s she has little chance of finding a marriage/ltr with a man her age, but then suggest that she might have better luck if she is open to be with a man slightly younger than she? I would think that if these men think it difficult for the 30+ woman to find a relationship with one of her male peers, then it would be even more so with a younger man, who is probably looking for even younger women than men the same age as the 30+ women.
You are correct in that I was surprised that there are some men in the Manosphere who do not denigrate the OW/YM relationships, as I often read of vehement opposition to these relationships. It’s because of this opposition that I was confused about how some on this forum seem to advise womem over 30 to be open to younger men, (who I believe would be even more resistant to an older woman than a man her age,) and yet tell her she has even less of a chance with a guy her age.
I agree with you that there are some women in their 30’s who are delusional about the kinds of men they can attract, but please keep in mind there as just as many women that age who are keenly aware of the reality and are at terms with it. Most over 30 women know men their age want the “young hot babes” and they are at terms with it; even though they may not like it. I agree with you there are women who passed up good men when they were younger for shallow reaons, but please don’t forget about the women who were in relationships that had to end due to be being cheated on, lied to, abused in spite of being good woman who treated their men with love and support. And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.
@Perspective — “And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.”
You’re new around here, aren’t you?
Some guy,
Not really. My first post here was almost a couple months ago.
Your comment suggests you disagree with me and that’s ok,
but yes, I personally know of wonderful women who are attractive and
have a lot to offer, but are still unappreciated and taken for
granted. Men are not the only ones who this happens to.
“And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attractive and having a lot going for them.”
I have never, ever met such a woman, ever in my life.
I have never, ever met or heard of any woman anywhere who was attractive and had “a lot going for” her who was “overlooked or never really approached for a relationship”.
By “attractive” I mean rudimentarily physically attractive. She need only be average, look as if she cares somewhat about her physical appearance, and not be morbidly obese.
By “has a lot going for her” I mean she is nice, kind, sweet, submissive, pleasant to be around, is not a ballbuster, and has domestic skills such as cooking, cleaning and knows how to care for children.
Any woman I have ever met who is attractive and has a lot going for her AS SET OUT ABOVE in my experience has never, ever, ever wanted for a man. Not ever.
By “attractive” I don’t mean “intelligent” or “witty”:or “funny” or “has a great personality” or is “exciting and fun”.
By “has a lot going for her” I do not mean “well traveled” or “well educated” or “has Ivy League degrees” or “has had a lot of cool experiences” or “has done a lot of exploring and learning about herself” or “earns a good living”.
I agree with you there are women who passed up good men when they were younger for shallow reaons,
Breakthrough?
but please don’t forget about the women who were in relationships that had to end due to be being cheated on, lied to, abused in spite of being good woman who treated their men with love and support.
You mean, women who pursued the “bad boy” only to find them to be totally hot and totally uninterested in doing the things needed for a successful long term relationship (LTR)?
Shocked. SHOCKED!
And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.
Allow me a minor edit:
And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship by the bad boy, alpha, with the heart of gold and the “three 6s”; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.
Ok, that’s clearer.
Those women were surrounded by eligible and invisible men, because those women did not consider those men worthy of her. She disqualified 90% of all men around her, focused on 10% and punched above her weight class (in the Sexual Market Place) for years until she hit the wall at 30.
Deti,
The women I was referring to have all the traits you described as desirable, with the exception of “submissive,” however, neither are they “ballbusters.” It’s alright if you disagree with me, and while you may have not “ever met such a woman” in your life, I have and they do exist.
Rock Throwing Peasant,
The women you describe are NOT the ones that I was referring to me in my post. The women I know of and describe are good, decent and attractive individuals who are realistic about dating and relationships. They are NOT people who made the wrong choices and rejected good men because they were not the “bad boy, alpha, with the heart of gold and the “three 6s.” I don’t understand why the blame is mostly placed on the women and/or chalked up to how she somehow must have messed up, when that is not always the case.
Oh, I’m sorry. Not all women are like that.
For attraction and marriage:
I as a man don’t care about where you went to school, or your salary, or your job, or your friends.
I don’t care about how much money you make. I don’t care about all the cool people you’ve met or the places you’ve traveled to or the things you did while you were there.
I don’t care about how funny or witty you are, or how good a storyteller you are. Your stories don’t really interest me. I don’t care about all the “cool” things you have done or experiences you have had, unless it involves slutty behavior or a high partner count (which you’ll need to come clean about). I don’t care how smart you are. Whether you can solve three equations in three unknowns or if you have the Book of Ecclesiastes memorized or you have studied quantum physics at MIT is of no moment to me at all.
If you talk to me about the work you’ve done to “find yourself” or “all the exploration” you did to “learn about yourself”, I will conclude you have had something of a colorful sexual history that you haven’t been completely honest about, and you’ve figured out that that path isn’t going to get you a husband. Congratulations for correctly concluding that they only wanted sex from you.
Here’s what I care about: Do I like the way you look? Do I like spending time with you? Are you nice to me? Are you helpful to me? Are you an asset to me? Do you fit in well with the way I live my life? Do you refrain from hassling me and nagging me? Are you smart with your money? Do you care about me and how I live? Can you cook? Can you manage money? Can you clean and take care of a house? Can you live on a budget? Can you solve problems at our house while I am away?
@Perspective — “And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.”
This type of woman absolutely does not exist. Such women are universally barraged by male attention unless they go far, far out of their way to intentionally avoid it.
I do disagree with the specifics of Deti’s criticism though. All that is necessary for a woman to be approached, is physical attraction. Personality, character, intelligence, values, interests, and other things that they they have “going for them” are aspects of compatibility which may make or break the relationship — but attraction is not compatibility — and all relationships begin with attraction.
I’m truly sorry to say this, I’m not intending to be mean, but if you are not being approached for relationships, one of two things must be true:
(a) you are just not as attractive as you think you are…OR…
(b) you are somehow shutting out or screening out a lot of interested men. I’ve known women who were regularly approached by good men they considered “beneath” their notice — and yet would turn around and complain that there were “no men.” Or maybe you need to ditch your gay friends; they’re a straight repellent. Something..
PS. — you are just not as attractive as you think you are
…in which case, it’s time to cut carbs and hit the gym (95%), followed by a wardrobe upgrade (5%).
How to get a husband: Dress up like Wonder Woman or Bat Girl… then go to various nerd conventions and play board games. Choose the best looking unattached “nice” guy there that has a decent job and be nice to him and play whatever game he’s playing.
(I’m have a hard time imagining an “attactive and having a lot going for them” type of girl that couldn’t get a steady long term relationship and/or marriage by doing that if she was really serious. She wouldn’t have to be super attractive, either– just pleasant, really.)
Perspective:
I sense you have a pejorative view of the concept of “submissiveness”.
Submissive does not mean she is a doormat, or cowers in the corner while her husband barks orders, or tolerates physical abuse, or never voices her opinion.
Submissive means she is not the dominant partner. It means she follows her man’s lead. It means she does not impose her will on him or the relationship. It means she helps him and does not compete with him. He leads and determines the overall course of the relationship, the marriage and the family. If he and she have a disagreement on a major matter, the man breaks the tie and they do it his way in crucial matters such as where to live, where he will work, where and whether she will work, the children’s schooling, attendance at church, religious education and major purchases. She gracefully submits to his leadership even in the face of fundamental disagreement. She has every right and in fact the obligation to give her husband sound and wise advice and counsel on such major matters.
Such women are universally barraged by male attention unless they go far, far out of their way to intentionally avoid it.
I tried to make that point earlier, but it was ignored.
Those women (attractive, lots going for them) were literally surrounded by decent guys who would’ve made good husbands and fathers.
Those men were invisible to these “attractive women with a lot going for them” because they were not hot, “three 6s” men. They were average guys, with average social skills, but likely raised in good families and would provide for a family.
The only men who appeared on the radar of those women were the hot, alpha types. Those women think no man approached them because only those men appeared visible. The average, frustrated chump did not exist, as far as they could see. They were friendzoned, or rebuffed, or did something odd one time were forever disqualified.
So, yeah, those women could’ve opened their eyes at any time and found decent men. They just wouldn’t be bad bay, alpha, three 6 types. It means prioritizing family over the tingle and most women, age 18-35 have made a conscious decision to prioritize work, sex, and playtime over family.
Of course, not all women are like that.
Regarding submission, from Red Pill Reformation:
A wife who submits does not place herself in a subservient or servile role. Spiritually, there is no difference between a husband and wife. Paul used a variation of the word hupotasso when describing submission. Originally a military word, hupotasso translates closer to, “arrange in order under.” Submit, in Biblical terms, is not the same as, “obey.” To obey (hupakoe) is to follow an order. There is no will involved and, some argue, no thought. God does not command a wife to blindly follow a husband’s lead. She has equal spiritual value. He does, however, command her to submit to his leadership.
A family, like any organization, can only function effectively with one leader. A husband should consult his wife, weigh her advice carefully (after all, a husband thought enough of her to marry her), and make a decision in accord with God. A woman will, by her Fallen nature, test the man’s authority. I don’t consider the tests as a consciously evil decision to usurp his authority, as much as it is part of her nature – just as nurturing is part of her nature. However, that doesn’t mean patriarchs shouldn’t resist her nature and assert authority.
Peter restates this principle, using a variation of hupotasso, “You wives, be submissive to your husbands.” (1 Peter 3:1a) Peter also tells wives that they are to submit when their husbands, “are disobedient to the Word, [that] they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.” (vv 1b-2) Notice that Peter does not infantilize women’s spiritual nature. In fact, he reinforces the earlier notion that marriage sanctifies the couple. A godly wife can sanctify a husband and can win him back to a godly life by acting as God commands.
Van Rooinek,
I never once complained in any of my posts about how I am not approached for relationships. My posts are about my observations, not about my own love life.
I have never spoken of my physical attractiveness in any of my posts, nor have I ever posted a photo of myself. So how would you be able to assess how attractive I am and suggest that I “cut carbs and hit the gym (95%), followed by a wardrobe upgrade (5%)?
Cuz that’s good advice for anyone looking to increase their attractiveness…except chicks with anorexia.
Perspective:
Solipsism at work.
van Rooinek was using the generic, universal “you”, not referring to Perspective as “you”. He was not talking about you, Perspective.
Phrase it this way:
“I’m truly sorry to say this, I’m not intending to be mean, but if a particular woman is not being approached for relationships, one of two things must be true:
(a) she is just not as attractive as she thinks she is…OR…
(b) she is somehow shutting out or screening out a lot of interested men. I’ve known women who were regularly approached by good men they considered “beneath” their notice — and yet would turn around and complain that there were “no men.” Or maybe she needs to ditch her gay friends; they’re a straight repellent. Something..”
Deti (and Van Rooinek if you’re reading this)
I think how I understood what V.R. was talking about was more about misunderstanding than solipsism. But in any case, sorry about that.
RPT — “three 6s” men”
6 feet… 6 figures… or deep 6 him.. right? Or is there another meaning for the 3 sixes? (Aside from Revelation… )
There is a heavy emphasis on how a woman’s physical attractiveness and youth are the most important factors in whether or not she can attract a man. So hypothetically, let’s say a woman who has many wonderful traits, is generally considered attractive and would make a great partner/wife but introduced to a man who does not find her attractive, he would most likely not pursue a relationship with her. And I have a feeling he would also most likely NOT encounter criticism from society for turning a good woman down, because hey, he’s a man one of the most importants requirements for his partner/wife selection is attraction right?
Now suppose a woman find herself in the same situation and turns down a man she is not attracted to and feels no chemistry with, but instead of her choice being met with tolerance and understanding like the man’s choice, she is branded as shallow and superficial? Is attraction not allowed to be an important factor for women as well? Or are they expected to be above that? If so, why?
Now suppose a woman find herself in the same situation and turns down a man she is not attracted to and feels no chemistry with…
I thought you were arguing they never meet men who are interested in them?
Sharrukin,
Yes, in my other posts I was talking about women not being able to meet men interested in them.
But in my most recent post, I was talking about a different scenario. Not all my posts are
related to one another.
Nobody I know advocates that either men or women should marry people for whom they feel no attraction. How will the relationship ever get consummated? As I said before, attraction is not compatibility. Attraction is instinctive and it is either there, or it is not — for both sexes.
However… when a man is told over and over, year after year, how handsome he is (attraction) and what a wonderful guy he is (compatibility), by women who won’t date him, he starts to get very angry. Either they’re all lying to him, or, there’s something else they want that he isn’t providing… in which case, “WWHHHAAAAATTTTT????”
The fact is that attraction is one dimensional for men, and 2 dimensional for women. This is explained here.
Yes, in my other posts I was talking about women not being able to meet men interested in them.
But in my most recent post, I was talking about a different scenario. Not all my posts are related to one another.
Actually they are very closely related to one another.
That lack of attraction to perfectly decent men, the same sort of men that they will later marry, if they marry at all, is the problem. Those men are increasingly uninterested in those women who show up later suggesting marriage, when they couldn’t get the time of day from them previously. Its obviously the guys wallet, not him, that the woman wants and divorce laws are designed to deliver that wallet to her.
“Perspective: Solipsism at work. van Rooinek was using the generic, universal “you”, not referring to Perspective as “you”. He was not talking about you, Perspective. Phrase it this way: “I’m truly sorry to say this, I’m not intending to be mean, but if a particular woman is not being approached for relationships, one of two things must be true: (a) she is just not as attractive as she thinks she is…OR… (b) she is somehow shutting out or screening out a lot of interested men. I’ve known women who were regularly approached by good men they considered “beneath” their notice — and yet would turn around and complain that there were “no men.”
I agree with this. (a) is very true and you see that with a lot of women these days in that they think they are “all that”, think their s*i* don’t stink, think everything they say is always right and everyone else is just wrong.
(b) Now this one there are many many women that do this and it absolutely KILLS their chances. A lot of women think there is this ultra ultra ultra specific “guy” and he’s somehow going to meet all their ginormous (fantasy) “requirements” and so they say NO to every single guy and it’s no wonder they are constantly always single and in extremely short term relationships. Then like said in (b) they turn around and complain, b*tch about how there are “no GOOD men”. Um yeah there are GOOD MEN RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE!! Those guy’s that you dismissed or turned up your nose at, those guys right there that you constantly say no to or turn your nose up to are generally the “good guys”. They likely aren’t going to be they guy that you have envisioned in your mind,
These women in (b) category have broden their requirements, make their requirement “list” much much shorter and realize that when they meet “good men” do NOT just shut them OUT, no man is going to have this “everything” list. they will have a more broad interests with a few specifics that meet you “list” again I say FEW (not a lot) but a FEW specifics, such as he has a great family, he likes to do a lot of the same things as you, he’s educated, has a decent job, he may or MAY not be your 6′ or taller guy. WAY WAY to many single women these days have this such ULTRA SPECIFIC he must be this and this and this and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and it NEVER WORKS!! When women open their minds up, realize that he’s not going to have your “everything” “fantasy” list “requirements”.
And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them…
Now suppose a woman find herself in the same situation and turns down a man she is not attracted to and feels no chemistry with…
This sounds like projection.
Firstly, a woman assesses herself as interesting and attractive, therefore assumes (projects) men should too.
Secondly, a woman is only attracted to such a small percentage of men and assumes (projects) that men are far more selective than they actually are.
Women are attracted to a small percentage of men, courtesy the apex fallacy. Men find a much larger percentage of women attractive, thanks to mass supplication and pedestalisation. But as women project their own beliefs onto men, they end up with this warped thinking, that nobody finds them attractive.
Time for some grandma glasses and some mentoring, me thinks.
!! When women open their minds up, realize that he’s not going to have your “everything” “fantasy” list “requirements”.
Most men learn this at an early age. If you’re not on the starting lineup of the football team, you’re just not going to get a date with a cheerleader. Not ever. However strongly an ordinary guy might admire or desire such a woman, by the time he’s out of high school he knows, fairly well, whether he IS, or (much more likely) IS NOT, able to get such women. And if not, then he revises his expectations downward, towards the real world women who will actually date and marry him.
In a monogamous culture, women learn the same lesson early on, as well. The football stars marries the cheerleaders a few weeks after graduating high school, and the studs are now off the market. And all the other girls start looking at the rest of the guys.
However, in a hookup culture, it’s different.
Since men are the sexually more driven sex, a male “9” who doesn’t have access to a female “9” TONIGHT, may sleep with a female “5” out of convenience. He would never, never, never settle down with a 5 or invest in her — when/if he marries, it’ll be with a female 9, because he can get one. By contrast, a female 9 can get a male 9 whenever she wants. She need never go to bed with a 5 out of desperation, and never does.
As a result: ordinary men STILL get rejected by hot women, from an early age, and STILL learn at an early age, to have more realistic dating goals. But the women DON’T learn this lesson any more, at least not when young. Why? Because they’ve actually had sexual flings with the hottest men, and are deceived by these experiences into believing they are *much more attractive* than is really the case. And so, for the rest of their lives, or at least for the rest of their youth, they will hold out for 9’s in the mistaken belief they can actually get one to commit.
To put it more succinctly, the hookup culture exaggerates women’s natural hypergamy, so much so that it may prevent her from ever mating.
The 9s run rampant, of course, giving “men” a reputation of not wanting to commit. But actually the vast majority of men, are willing to commit… it’s just that those guys are “invisible” to women. And, of course, they snub those guys,… and claim in the next breath that there are “no men” available.
Yes, most men are invisible until most women have exhausted their options, hit the wall, and start considering what they view as their least preferred option, a man with a similar mmv.
She will be ruined by her five minutes of alpha, unable to pair bond, grow chronically unhappy and eventually divorce dear hubs for cash, prizes and another turn on the carousel, shortening her childrens lives and dooming herself to a bitter singleness into old age.
All about choice, i suppose.
“Most men learn this at an early age. If you’re not on the starting lineup of the football team, you’re just not going to get a date with a cheerleader. Not ever. However strongly an ordinary guy might admire or desire such a woman, by the time he’s out of high school he knows, fairly well, whether he IS, or (much more likely) IS NOT, able to get such women. And if not, then he revises his expectations downward, towards the real world women who will actually date and marry him.
In a monogamous culture, women learn the same lesson early on, as well. The football stars marries the cheerleaders a few weeks after graduating high school, and the studs are now off the market. And all the other girls start looking at the rest of the guys.
However, in a hookup culture, it’s different.
Since men are the sexually more driven sex, a male “9″ who doesn’t have access to a female “9″ TONIGHT, may sleep with a female “5″ out of convenience.”
Disagree: Those cheerleaders that married the “football” jocks yeah they married them alright but then they are most likely divorced, ex husband had probably 20 surgeries from football, his knees, shoulders are all shot from football not to mention the onset of dementia from repeated concussions all probably at the age of 39 to 45. Then wife that married football guy, after his career ended she want’s out. Now these women are divorced with 4 or 5 kids she was maybe a 9 back in the day but now after their kids, failed marriage she’s “average” or below. On the other hand there are “average” guys that can get the “cheerleaders” after they have been with Mr. football jock that cheated on her with 10 other women on the side etc etc.
Your statement “”Most men learn this at an early age. If you’re not on the starting lineup of the football team, you’re just not going to get a date with a cheerleader. Not ever.” is just what men see a lot these days they are “those” women that are conceded, stuck up B*t*hes that think they are the s*it, too good for anyone, think they the Ms. “perfect” then they get dumped or cheated on by Mr. football guy then those type of women are even worse cause they think just cause they “were” ms. cheerleader/former cheerleader they should be just “self” deserving and have the warped mind that GQ is just going to appear out of the blue sky etc etc.
Sharrukin,
“Actually they are very closely related to one another.
That lack of attraction to perfectly decent men, the same sort of men that they will later marry, if they marry at all, is the problem. Those men are increasingly uninterested in those women who show up later suggesting marriage, when they couldn’t get the time of day from them previously. Its obviously the guys wallet, not him, that the woman wants and divorce laws are designed to deliver that wallet to her.”
I realize now that perhaps I should have used a different choice of words to make myself more clearly understood, but I guess what I was trying to say was that I was not expanding on my previous posts, but rather trying to introduce a different kind of scenario. In my previous posts, I was wrote of women who are unable to meet men for marriage. In my most recent post, I was trying to address the subject of attraction or lack of it and how men and women are judged differently for having certain preferences when it comes to dating and relationships.
It seems that a lot of people think that the reason some women have a difficult time finding someone to marry or have an ltr with is due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.
I was trying to address the subject of attraction or lack of it and how men and women are judged differently for having certain preferences when it comes to dating and relationships.
Indeed. Men are judged far more harshly.
It seems that a lot of people think that the reason some women have a difficult time finding someone to marry or have an ltr with is due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands
Because that’s what we observe. Not in every case, but the vast majority. We observed women rejecting good men over and over (sometimes including ourselves) and then complaining that there were no good men. What else can we conclude?
It seems that a lot of people think that the reason some women have a difficult time finding someone to marry or have an ltr with is due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.
————————–
How exactly does a reasonably attractive woman spend 15 years of her life with men vying for her attention and not run across one man worth marrying? If she doesn’t have an inflated idea of who she should be marrying, puts her career ahead of marriage, or simply wants to sleep around, then how exactly does that happen?
due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.
If you can explain to men how to tell the difference between the types, you will have their undying gratitude.
NASWALT*
*But most are.
We need a new acronym: NAOHALT (not all old hags are like that)
Sharrukin,
Nice work picking up where I left off. Alas, I think it is wasted effort.
When she found logic she coudn’t refute, she dropped the previous line of rationalization and started a new one.
Now, she will entrench with the NAWALT attitude she flashed as an earlier defense.
Of course, I could be completely wrong…Not all women are like that and all that.
I think further discussion is just more hamsterbation. If she can not grasp how an “attractive, 30 year old with lots to offer” walked through 15 years of life and didn’t see at least a dozen decent guys, then she will never understand how “invisible” guys are.
I looked around my office. There are nine single guys here. Two, maybe three, appear on the radar for women. It’s a bit higher than normal, but that’s due to the field of work. All make good money. Four are divorced. They’re interesting guys who have travelled the world, fought in wars, and are into things like playing in a garage band, hiking the Appalacian Trail (in sections, during summers), etc. And they are invisible because most have a paunch, or are shorter than average, or aren’t great looking, or losing their hair.
No good men around? Please. I’d literally go to war with these guys, they are that worthy.
@ Perspective:
“It seems that a lot of people think that the reason some women have a difficult time finding someone to marry or have an ltr with is due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.”
This is a “Not All Women Are Like That” argument. You are trying to point to rare outliers and exceptions to disprove the general rule.
It is true that NAWALT. It is also true that most women or at least enough women ARE like that. They are EXACTLY like that, EXACTLY as described. They are entitled, make completely unreasonable demands, and want men they cannot have. Their expectations from men, relationships, and life are unreasonable to the extreme. They want hot alpha studs to have sex with them until they are ready to marry. Then they want those hot alpha studs to marry them right around the time they turn 29 or 30. They expect whirlwind courtships, being swept off their feet, $500 nights out, weekend getaways, vacations in Europe or SE Asia, and $100,000 weddings. They expect their men to have Brad Pitt’s looks, Fabio’s body, George Clooney’s charm, Warren Buffett’s money, and Billiy Graham’s spirituality.
WHat women expect of men today is ridiculous, outrageous, and unreasonable.
van Rooinek
To put it more succinctly, the hookup culture exaggerates women’s natural hypergamy, so much so that it may prevent her from ever mating.
Not only that, the hookup culture takes most or all limits off of hypergamy. Unleashed hypergamy leads many women to narrow their “field of view” so much that they can only see a tiny handful of men. Apex of apex, as it were.
Uncontrolled hypergamy is making both women and men miserable.
I think I have some idea of what Perspective is talking about. There are women who get little or no attention from men.
My last dating experiences took place when I was in my mid-30s under the final days of the Old Regime, before the hook up culture took firm root. There were a lot of women who were presented to me by female friends (usually wives of male friends, as I was the holdout bachelor in a large group of male comrades) who were unacceptable to me.
Some were just not as attractive to me as my friends’ wives thought they should be. A LOT were more athletic than I was (or am). I ran and bicycled a lot, so I had a good weight and was (and still am) fairly fit, but that fitness didn’t translate into prowess in any particular game, so after dozens of dates being beat by women in racquetball, tennis, and basketball, I decided to forgo the athletic type.
Others were pretty and feminine enough, but as dumb as a bunch of rocks. Men may not target intelligence in women, but they sure as hell filter for abject ignorance. After a while, the wives of my friends started getting snippy with me, telling me I was “too fussy” and that I really wasn’t much of a prize myself to be rejecting “all these wonderful girls”. Looking back in retrospect, I probably wasn’t. I was a pedestalizing supplicating beta boy with a bad case of oneitis for whatever just-barely-out-of-my-league girl I happened to have in my sights at the time.
The girls that I were rejecting were 2s, 3s, and maybe 4s. it was hard for me to accept that my SMV was that low, but it probably was ( My mid-30s self ranks -2, as a lower beta in Roissy’s SMV for Men survey). The things about myself that I valued were obviously things that women didn’t value, so I understand and sympathize when I read about women who want to be considered “awesome” because of their educational and career achievements.
Since I speak Spanish and Portuguese fluently (which actually seemed to work against me with American women), I married foreign and got a much better wife than I was likely to pull in the US. As far as I know, all of the 2s, 3s, and 4s I rejected 25 years ago are still single, so maybe Perspective has a point. However, so are two of the 6s I pursued.
My friends’ wives, I am happy to report, have all stayed married to my friends, so I have good taste in male friends.
Not only that, the hookup culture takes most or all limits off of hypergamy.
Parents can take a slice of the blame. Adding the princess mentality and entitlement (and other go grrrrl stuff) is like adding NOS to an engine already designed for the purpose of going fast.
A question I guess I would have, Perspective, is this. Many men I know find a significant majority of women attractive in a SMV sense; how many women find a significant majority of men attractive in a SMV sense? Are we talking 5%, 2%? So what I am getting at is this: are there different expectations between men seeking a marriage partner and women claiming to do the same?
I also hold to the notion of being repsonsible for and cultivating attraction. I do that with my wife. We really need to esteem people that have excellent character traits in higher regard, realize that all that glitters is not gold and that are basic animal attraction can be tricked and perverted (men and women). We have to take responisbility for ourselves and match our expectations to some sembelance of reality.
I don’t think many men here are going to cry because some woman didn’t deign to notice anyone but the top 5% of SMV men she came into contact with while whining about “there aren’t any good men”.
.., if a woman were to assess a man’s worth by his height or bank account she would be judged as shallow at best and likely with a barrage of other insults at worst. How is ageism towards women any different?
Men’s “ageism” toward women is not volitional. It’s a genetic impulse. Sexual attraction is simply an instinctive assessment of a person’s reproductive potential. (It doesn’t matter if you’re using contraception, if you are adamantly against having a child.. the sexual instinct is reproductive whether you realize it or not, whether you want it to be or not. Even a bulimic prefers food that tastes good, though she has no intention of digesting it!)
And women are more fertile when they are healthy and young. The cold cruel truth is that most women look better in their late teens than at any other time in their life… because that’s when they are healthiest and most fertile. (In a rationally organized society, that’s when they’d be married off. I know a professional colleague, of Texas Hill Country German stock, whose parents were 14 and 15 when they married. And they’re still together.)
If you’re over 30, do whatever you can — exercise, diet, etc — to try to look younger than you are. That’s all you can do. If you have a daughter, warn her to begin her husband quest at 18, not 28.
And for that matter, women’s preference for height and provisioning capacity (whether it be mammoth meat, or mammon), is probably genetic too. There’s nothing a man can do about his height, but any man can work his way up the attraction scale by making money. And, if it’s any consolation to my short brethern, at 6’3″ I had almost no success with women… until I started making good money. because MONEY is the gatekeeper for women, just as looks are the gatekeeper for men.
Slightly off topic… but… i thought nice guys finished last
Personally, I don’t find the majority of women attractive, although I would say I find a significant minority of them so (maybe 30%-40% depending on the setting and age groups). But I have a really hard time being inspired or turned on by a 7 or less. I wish it were otherwise and have tried dating less attractive women but it just doesn’t work.
Perspective:
“Now suppose a woman find herself in the same situation and turns down a man she is not attracted to and feels no chemistry with, but instead of her choice being met with tolerance and understanding like the man’s choice, she is branded as shallow and superficial? Is attraction not allowed to be an important factor for women as well? Or are they expected to be above that? If so, why?”
Of course attraction is an important factor to women. van Rooinek explains it well. The problem is that most people do not know or understand what “attraction” is. For men, attraction is looks alone. For women, attraction is about a man’s looks and status.
But men are never, ever told that female attraction triggers have anything to do with physical appearance or their status. Rather, men are trained that “attraction” for women is about “Compatibility”, or how nice, affable and agreeable a man is, how “relationship-ready” a man is.
So it is not that men don’t expect women to be “attracted”. It is that men don’t know what “attraction” for a woman is or what it means.
men are never, ever told that female attraction triggers have anything to do with physical appearance or their status.
Disagree on appearance. Lots of young men invest a lot of gym time, trying to make themselves more appealing to women. They understand quite well that women prefer muscles over fat. However… you can get to your 40s without anyone telling you the importance of status, and the psychological signals of status, in the woman-quest. Without status, even a perfect body gets you nowhere with women.
Rather, men are trained that “attraction” for women is about “Compatibility”, or how nice, affable and agreeable a man is, how “relationship-ready” a man is.
As Badger so eloquently put it, men ask for attraction advice, and are given instead, compatibility advice that presumes attraction. “Be nice, be yourself, work on your communication skills”, works great IF the woman is already attracted to you on other grounds — but it is FOLLY to believe that being nice, etc, will create attraction where there is none. Yet, this is what men are taught!!!!! As a result…
So it is not that men don’t expect women to be “attracted”. It is that men don’t know what “attraction” for a woman is or what it means.
… or, most importantly, how to improve it Raise your status, if possible (may take years of work) — adopt a more confident posture immediately — and stop making characteristic nice-guy mistakes that make you look like less of a man than you really are. Solve the status riddle first… then and only then will a good physique and a relationship-ready personality matter.
A woman has it easier in one sense and harder in another. Easier, in that she needs to focus only on physical attractiveness, not status. Harder, in that, since physical attraction can only be improved within natural limits, if she’s relatively unattractive physically there is no way to compensate — whereas, for a man, even the most physically repulsive man can get female attention by raising his status (power, money, fame…). Even STEVEN HAWKING has groupies!
“The cold cruel truth is that most women look better in their late teens than at any other time in their life… because that’s when they are healthiest and most fertile.”
That’s true. But it’s also true that women who still look good close to or around 30 have better genetics. So for discriminating men a woman looking good in her late teens is a maybe, whereas a woman looking good later is a better bet. The ideal is to give the woman a trial run to her mid twenties and throw her back into the pond without kids and/or marriage if she does not make the cut.
So much new reading material!
My feedback for Perspective: I can in general find something aesthetically pleasing, and something not-so-much-so in just about every woman. A woman’s ‘pleasantness’ (for lack of a better word) largely determines which things my eyes seem to pay the most attention too. Women that smile, laugh, and in general don’t come off jaded are ‘pleasant’. Which isn’t to say there aren’t varying degrees of attractiveness from the beginning. But, while a ‘9’ that isn’t pleasant isn’t going to have much marriage value, a ‘4’ is going to have to be a whole lot more pleasant to win that competition. The only advantage age can play in that equation is more experience and knowledge about how to be more pleasant than a younger ‘9’. But a woman only has that knowledge if she’s picked it up along the way, if she’s still imagining herself to be as ‘9’ as she was ten years ago, if she still believes she doesn’t have to compensate by being a little more pleasant, she doesn’t stand a chance against a younger woman.
Sure, the opposite plays true, no man who is re-figuring out the status game (I was working in Architecture, but the last three years have seen my first stretches of unemployment since age 16 ) should have any expectation of landing a 9 either. I don’t, I’m probably not shooting that high even when I do get back in the saddle. Thing is, I don’t think women are evil for wanting to win their game, while it seems that the majority of women think it’s evil that men try to win theirs. The older women that are outplaying younger women are those that play to what men are looking for, not those who are just as cynical/jaded/gender-politically-correct as the younger women they’re competing against.
women who still look good close to or around 30 have better genetics. So for discriminating men a woman looking good in her late teens is a maybe, whereas a woman looking good later is a better bet.
Except for one thing. The 30 yr old woman either (a) has a strong sex drive, or (b) she does not.
If she has a strong drive… she hasn’t saved herself to age 30 (with very rare exceptions.) She’s been slutting around the block, at best in “LTRs” with several “boyfriends” whose own fidelity is in question — and she likely by now she has fertility-inhibiting damage from STDs and/or abortion scarring. No chance of children then.
If she does not… then being married to her will be pure misery, you’ll be begging for sex and not getting it.
van Rooinek: I was just thinking of reasons why some or a lot of men (including me) find women (slightly) older than women’s most common prime more attractive. The ideal is to have her from the most common prime (18) to the watershed age (25) and get rid of her if she does not make the cut (improve compared to other women her age).
Usually when women hit 25 they start dressing a lot better. More expensive shoes (Salvatore Ferragamo instead of Uggs and dollar store flats), better fitting dresses of a higher quality (Michael Kors not Forever21), better accessories (tasteful Prada not the same obnoxious Coach purse everyone else had courtesy of daddy at 21).
Sigh, anglo women have no fashion sense.
Sharrukin,
“How exactly does a reasonably attractive woman spend 15 years of her life with men vying for her attention and not run across one man worth marrying? If she doesn’t have an inflated idea of who she should be marrying, puts her career ahead of marriage, or simply wants to sleep around, then how exactly does that happen?”
I can see how most would think this would seem unlikely, but the fact remains there are women who are in this situation nut their reasons are not, as you stated, because she has an “inflated idea of who she should be marrying, puts her career ahead of marriage, or simply wants to sleep around….”
Perspective says:
September 26, 2012 at 6:20 pm
The ‘fact’ does not remain because you haven’t proved that the fact exists. Merely believing something does not make it true.
But I get you Perspective, I see where you are. In a culture where you have been taught to look upon all strangers, and especially all strange MEN with suspicion, you probably have no idea how to actually signal attraction to a man. Its not your fault your social skills are poor, but you are a casualty of bad socialization from your cultural conditioning.
I can see how most would think this would seem unlikely, but the fact remains there are women who are in this situation nut their reasons are not, as you stated, because she has an “inflated idea of who she should be marrying, puts her career ahead of marriage, or simply wants to sleep around….”
———————
Then what are those reasons? Even if you assume she is only approached once a year by some man then you have 15 men. If its once every three months, you have 60 men. Once every month…well, you can do the math as well as I can.
Rock Throwing Peasant,
“Sharrukin,
Nice work picking up where I left off. Alas, I think it is wasted effort.
When she found logic she coudn’t refute, she dropped the previous line of rationalization and started a new one. Now, she will entrench with the NAWALT attitude she flashed as an earlier defense.Of course, I could be completely wrong…Not all women are like that and all that.
I think further discussion is just more hamsterbation. If she can not grasp how an “attractive, 30 year old with lots to offer” walked through 15 years of life and didn’t see at least a dozen decent guys, then she will never understand how “invisible” guys are.”
I’m sorry you thought it was a wasted effort, but in any case I still appreciated your response. I don’t feel I was trying to “refute” any kind of “logic,” and I don’t think I “dropped the previous line of rationalization and started a new one,” As I explained before, I was just trying to introduce a new subject in my other post. I’m not completely oblivious and I do understand how “invisible” some guys are.” In my opinion the “NAWALT” stance is valid, but I sense you don’t think it is and I’m not sure why. I’ve heard the term “hamsterbation” around here before but I don’t see how my posts can be described that way.
In my opinion the “NAWALT” stance is valid, but I sense you don’t think it is and I’m not sure why.
—————–
The exception that proves the rule. Arguing that there are exceptions is largely meaningless. It doesn’t alter the reality on the ground, and is commonly used as a way to attempt to disprove the point being made. Nothing in life is 100%. People have fallen from 30,000 feet in the air and survived, but that isn’t an argument against not making the leap.
ybm,
“The ‘fact’ does not remain because you haven’t proved that the fact exists. Merely believing something does not make it true.”
If it’s something I’ve actually witnessed then is that not enough to be considered fact or “proof?” I know I didn’t imagine it, so what else could it be?
“But I get you Perspective, I see where you are. In a culture where you have been taught to look upon all strangers, and especially all strange MEN with suspicion, you probably have no idea how to actually signal attraction to a man. Its not your fault your social skills are poor, but you are a casualty of bad socialization from your cultural conditioning.”
When you say “you,” do you mean the universal you? Or are you actually referring to me, Perspective? If you’re referring to me, then how would you be able to assess if my social skills are poor,?” how I interact with men in real life, or whether or not I’m capable of “signalling attraction to a man,” if you’ve never met even me? You’re saying you can glean all this over the internet?
Perspective says:
September 26, 2012 at 7:09 pm
One of these things is not like the other:
“If it’s something I’ve actually witnessed then is that not enough to be considered fact or “proof?””
“You’re saying you can glean all this over the internet?”
Let me help you with this first of all: Anecdote =/ Evidence. Your proof is in your subjective perception of a situation. This is an anecdote, good so far?
My proof is in the fact that you are not married and are complaining about being passed over, the proof is in the EVIDENCE of you being here. Now if you are LYING and indeed your anecdotes do not agree with reality, then of course my proof is also in anecdote, and is therefore not EVIDENCE.
Onto the point:
I am addressing you directly, because if you were able to signal attraction to men properly you would not be getting passed over at all, to be passed over is to imply and admit you have in some way, failed to attract said man.
ybm,
“My proof is in the fact that you are not married and are complaining about being passed over, the proof is in the EVIDENCE of you being here.”
You’re correct about my not being married, but where does it indicate in any of my posts that I’ve complained about being single or passed over? I’m here, because I find the posts interesting and informative.
“Now if you are LYING and indeed your anecdotes do not agree with reality, then of course my proof is also in anecdote, and is therefore not EVIDENCE.”
No, I’m not lying.
Onto the point:
“I am addressing you directly, because if you were able to signal attraction to men properly you would not be getting passed over at all, to be passed over is to imply and admit you have in some way, failed to attract said man.”
Again, where does it say in any of my posts that I personally have been passed over?
I think it’s that you offered the allegorical example. As pointed out by others, allegorical examples have problems when used as proof, except that we are most confident of the reality of our own allegorical examples. You may well be speaking of your friends’ experiences, if that is the case, I think most would be telling you that your friends aren’t telling you the whole story.
(Not used to posting without an edit button…I’m pretty sure anecdotal is the word I meant to use…)
They Call me Tom,
Gotcha
“Except for one thing. The 30 yr old woman either (a) has a strong sex drive, or (b) she does not.
If she has a strong drive… she hasn’t saved herself to age 30 (with very rare exceptions.) She’s been slutting around the block, at best in “LTRs” with several “boyfriends” whose own fidelity is in question — and she likely by now she has fertility-inhibiting damage from STDs and/or abortion scarring. No chance of children then.
If she does not… then being married to her will be pure misery, you’ll be begging for sex and not getting it.”
Or, she might actually be waiting for marriage due to religious, cultural or personal reasons.
Yes even today, there are still women (and even some men) who make this choice.
I know some of the posters on here are probably going to say these are the exceptions or outliers, but in certain communities it’s actually quite common.
Farm Boy,
“due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.”
“If you can explain to men how to tell the difference between the types, you will have their undying gratitude.”
I’m not saying I’m an expert or that I have all the answers, but I think the way men can tell the difference between the types is just to pay attention to what she views as important, her values, if she pays attention to you and is not self-absorbed, expresses gratitude, is helpful to you and others, is kind, loyal, and doesn’t judge what you do for a living, where you live, the kind of car you drive, the clothes you wear, etc, then I think it’s a safe bet that she’s not one of those women with a sense of entitlement and outrageous demands.
“If you can explain to men how to tell the difference between the types, you will have their undying gratitude.”
And of course, there’s acceptance too. If she accepts you in spite of things she doesn’t like (provided it’s not abusive or harmful to either one of you or your children if you have any) then that’s also a good indicator that she’s not one to make outrageous demands or have a sense of entitlement.
me: If she has a strong drive… she hasn’t saved herself to age 30 (with very rare exceptions.) ….she likely by now she has fertility-inhibiting damage from STDs
Perspective: Or, she might actually be waiting for marriage due to religious, cultural or personal reasons.
I know all about that. I am a man, I lost my virginity on my wedding night, and I’m part of a religous subculture where that is preached and taught as the expected norm.
However, EVEN THERE, a substantial percentage are not virgins at marriage, either because they didn’t get religion til a little later in life, or because they walked out of church in their late teens and slutted around for a decade or so, before coming home to church to find a husband. Both sexes do this but it seems to me that the girls do it a lot more. I know more than one couple where the husband was a virgin at marriage and the wife was NOT, for just this reason.
Also, it must be said, that with people biologically ready to marry in their teens, and yet often “not financially ready” til past 30, it’s really, really difficult to wait. GONE ARE THE DAYS when young lovers would marry with nothing — now, the girls (even the Christian girls) will not even consider marrying a man til AFTER he’s made it. But if the girl has a strong sex drive, she’s going to do SOMETHING with it… get nailed by a tattooed drifter on a Harley, while her future husband sits at home on Friday night, wondering why he can’t get a date… and pornographers get rich.
V.R.,
Yes I’ve heard of this happening in these types of communities and it’s sad, not too mention hypocritical. I think it’s even more unfortunate when it happens in these communities, because it’s not like they weren’t raised to know what’s approriate and what’s not. I’m not condemning these people but neither do I agree or approve of promiscuity (for men or women) especially with the emotional and health risks, not too mention risk of unwanted pregancy. It’s just sad. I agree it’s true that some people (both men and women) have a hard time with self-control, but there’s also those who do somehow manage to keep their raging hormones in check until marriage. Even those who are close to or beyond 30. So it just seems unfortunate for those women close to or beyond 30, who actually did and do respect themselves, and yet still come across judgements from others who assume they haven’t.
Yes I’ve heard of this happening in these types of communities and it’s sad, not too mention hypocritical. I think it’s even more unfortunate when it happens in these communities, because it’s not like they weren’t raised to know what’s approriate and what’s not
Perhaps I should clarify: I don’t mean a “commune”….. I mean, basically, your average large church; there’s probably one within a few miles of your home. It was once the dominant culture of the United States, but it is now an increasingly marginalized subculture.
So it just seems unfortunate for those women close to or beyond 30, who actually did and do respect themselves, and yet still come across judgements from others who assume they haven’t.
Men who are virgins past 30, are often judged as “wimps”….even in churches. Even though, in my case at least, I turned down opportunities and was well able to fornicate if I wished, that didn’t matter — I was seen as someone who “couldn’t”, not someone who “chose not to”. The supreme irony is that back in my single days, if I’d had a “badboy”past that I repented of, I’d have been seen as more appealiing by a lot of churchy women; the returning prodigal is seen as s better catch than the righteous older brother who never ran away.
Women who are virgins past 30, in the church, generally either have STRATOSPHERIC expectations of men (6 feet tall, movie-star looks, high income, studying to be a pastor… ) and/or…. secretly they’re total bitches…. speaking from experience on both counts. Or, in a few unfortunate cases, they are “1”s who are so unappealing that they just can’t get any man, ever. Why do I say this? Because in an environment where men, or even just a substantial subset of men, are saving themselves for marriage, it is usually VERY EASY for a woman to get married, if she is even remotely attractive, personable, and approachable. Churches are full of sexually desperate, abstinent men who are praying for wives…. again, speaking from experience.
Vr,
At one church, a girl that wanted to marry simply shopped around the church until she found a willing man. She was maybe a six or seven, but had a vicious temper and a sharp tongue. The virgin men all avoided her. She found a reformed guy – no surprises there – and they promptly married.
Oh, the romance of it all …
VR,
“Perhaps I should clarify: I don’t mean a “commune”….. I mean, basically, your average large church; there’s probably one within a few miles of your home. It was once the dominant culture of the United States, but it is now an increasingly marginalized subculture. ”
Yeah, I figured that’s what you were referring to. But perhaps I should have wrote “church” community so you knew what I meant.
“Women who are virgins past 30, in the church, generally either have STRATOSPHERIC expectations of men (6 feet tall, movie-star looks, high income, studying to be a pastor… ) and/or…. secretly they’re total bitches…. speaking from experience on both counts. ”
But do you think it could also be that there are some 30+ women who may have strong libidos but are actually just shy and image conscious? I find it interesting that a lot of 30+ women are judged and indeed assumed to have been promiscuous by the time they’ve reached their age, but if they have in fact remained virgins, then that seems to come with a different set of stereotypes as well. If a 30+ woman is saving herself for marriage, is that even seen as a virtue anymore? Or just some kind of anomaly?
@Perspective
A virginal woman, outside of a traditional patriarchial society, is worthless
A virginal woman, is a virgin woman precisely because society dictates it, not because she wants to be a virgin
A virginal woman without strong masculine men to dominate her & balance her, becomes highly dysfunctional & damaged goods
Women need strong masculine men to balance their irrational illogical emotional behaviour & biology
A woman virginal or otherwise is worthless to society without strong masculine men, to put her in place
Women are meant to be dominated & in subserviance to alphas
Mack PUA,
“A virginal woman, outside of a traditional patriarchial society, is worthless”
What do you mean by “traditional patriachial society?”
“A virginal woman, is a virgin woman precisely because society dictates it, not because she wants to be a virgin”
Ever heard of an assexual? As in people who have no interest in sex. For these people it’s a highly personal choice, not one imposed on them by society.
“A virginal woman without strong masculine men to dominate her & balance her, becomes highly dysfunctional & damaged goods”
What exactly do you believe would cause her to become “highly dysfuntional & damaged good?” without a “strong masculine men to dominate her & balance her?”
“Women need strong masculine men to balance their irrational illogical emotional behaviour & biology”
There’s women are who are balanced and single.
“A woman virginal or otherwise is worthless to society without strong masculine men, to put her in place”
Why does she need to be “put in her place?” and why do you consider her “worthless” if she’s not?
“Women are meant to be dominated & in subserviance to alphas”
In some cultures and parts of the world, that might be the norm, but I don’t see that a lot in Western society.
But do you think it could also be that there are some 30+ women who may have strong libidos but are actually just shy and image conscious?
Maybe, but I never met one. Or at least, they didn’t have strong libidos regarding *me*….
I find it interesting that a lot of 30+ women are judged and indeed assumed to have been promiscuous by the time they’ve reached their age
No, No, No !!!!!!!!!!!!! Not “judged” and certainly not “assumed”!!!! That would be horrible!!!!! I am basing this assertion on THEIR OWN ADMISSIONS</b<. Not just the word of one or two, but quite numerous. I'd say a majority of never-married, over-30 women in most churches, are nonvirgins.
Why? We live in a culture where there's no social stigma to sleeping around. And, as it happens, it is MUCH easier for a woman to get sex, than for a man. A women who isn't hideous looking, can get "laid" any time she wants. That's got to be a difficult thing to turn down, day after day, year after year. Men, by contrast, often find staying celibate quite easy, since for most of us (except the top 10-20%) the opportuntity to have sex is very rare.
but if they have in fact remained virgins, then that seems to come with a different set of stereotypes as well.
Again, based on experience. If she’s saving herself for marriage, and yet the decades roll by and never marries, something is usually wrong; either she’s just not that interested in men/marriage/sex, or her expectations of a man are simply ridiculous (the proverbial 463 point checklist). Once in a while you’ll find a good one that just plain got overlooked — and didn’t weigh 300 lbs — but honestly, that’s rare.
If a 30+ woman is saving herself for marriage, is that even seen as a virtue anymore?
Oh, absolutely. But that’s a very rare prize nowadays.
oops sorry about the muiffed boldface tag
Vr,
Most of the churchian girls were not virgins. This was freely admitted. Needless to say, the church men that were, were suitably encouraged to man up, and date them.
Of course we know about Nawalt.
Problem: the vast majority of non virgin women quite willingly gave it up to the bad boy. Then freely mocked virgin men. The older the man, the stronger the mocking. Heres the double standard: there was no shaming of the women.
Go figure.
@ Perspective:
“What do you mean by “traditional patriachial society?””
The United States and Western Europe from about 1500 to 1900. Operated by men for the benefit of society as a whole, including women and children. A focus on Judeo-Christian mores and ethics. Traditional gender roles for men and women.
“What exactly do you believe would cause a virginal woman to become “highly dysfuntional & damaged good?” without a “strong masculine men to dominate her & balance her?””
A healthy woman grows up as a girl under the tutelage and protection of a kind, strong, masculine father. He is dominant in their relationship. He has firm rules for her and expects compliance. He sets the rules, she submits to them. He hears her, he listens to her, and he cares for her. He changes rules and practices in training her up when need be and when he sees they are not working. He imposes consequences for failure to submit. She learns how to submit to a strong man. She learns how to feel her feelings without allowing them to govern her conduct. He teaches her how to feel, but not be ruled by, her feelings and emotions. She also learns the proper and improper ways to interact with boys. Sometimes she cannot learn how not to be ruled by her emotions. Her father simply keeps her from certain activities until she learns how to handle them in a nonemotional way.
A young woman who has no father in her life, or has a weak father, never learns any of these things. She has only one reality, and that is the one that exists inside herself. Such a girl grows up learning that the only important things are those which affect her. It is all about HER life, HER emotions, HER feelings, HER wants, HER needs, and HER desires. And the only such things that matter are those going on RIGHT NOW.
She grows up as a bundle of emotions and allows those emotions to govern her life and her decisions, because she doesn’t know any other way. Worse, there are no consequences for it. Any “rules” she has had to follow are set by a mother, who is herself ruled by emotion and whim and is thus easily manipulated. Or the “rules” are set by a weak, ineffective, feminized beta father, who cannot or will not enforce his will upon her. So, she learns to evade or manipulate or lie about any “rules” her parents have. Any consequences are either nonexistent or ineffectual, because they can always be escaped or minimized.
She also learns that she can interact with boys any way she wants, because no one stops her or puts any controls on her. This usually means she manipulates them for attention, favors, gifts, dates and sex. She learns if it’s sex she wants, she can get that from the best looking, most attractive men anytime she wants, any way she wants. She learns that if there are consequences, it’s someone else’s fault, and someone else’s responsibility to handle them.
“There’s women are who are balanced and single.”
This is just a NAWALT argument. Most women are not, unless they have learned rules and consequences from a strong father.
I’m just past my mid-thirties, and to be honest, i just don’t expect that any woman who is single, in ym age range, and is still a virgin. When in my twenties I hoped to marry a virgin, because, let’s be honest, satisfaction with your spouse and commitment to your spouse would seem to be better served by not having other lovers to compare your spouse to. While I’m sure there are women who exist that are single, over thirty, and virgins (who don’t have issues); but a woman in my age range being a virgin has entirely left my set of expectations. By my late twenties, that had to some degree changed my own conduct, but only so much, the consequences are still there.
These days, a woman who has made to her late twenties a virgin has all my respect, because as deti mentions, sex for women is presented as being without consequences (if you don’t use a preventative, you can get a pill; if you don’t get a pill, you can get an abortion; if you don’t get the abortion, you can get child support). As a teenage male, I already well understood what I could be on the hook for in the way of consequences. Sure my dad expected me to be a gentleman in general with women, but if chivalry had ever failed to keep me from making mistakes, the consequences would quickly snap me back in line. I can say that of the friends who married in their twenties, two were virgin-virgin (both married at 21) on the wedding night. The other three, the husband had waited, but the wife had not (married in their late twenties). I don’t personally know any married couples where the man hadn’t waited, but the woman had.
(only anecdotal evidence of course)
of the friends who married in their twenties, two were virgin-virgin (both married at 21) on the wedding night. The other three, the husband had waited, but the wife had not (married in their late twenties). I don’t personally know any married couples where the man hadn’t waited, but the woman had.
Anecdotal, but accords with the observations of others. It is not at all uncommon, for a Christian wedding to take place, in which the husband is a virgin and the wife is not… or, if they are both sexually experienced, the wife typically has a lot more.
How can this be? Obviously each illicit copulation requires one male and one female. Answer: In the 20s, a small subset of Alpha males runs riot through most of the female population,* while most men are totally sidelined. Hence by the time you hit the 30s’, most women have lost their virignity and have racked up “moderate” partner counts — but on the male side you’ve got a few men who have HUGE partner counts, and a lot of men who’ve had no sex at all, or very little. Women, by apex fallacy, since they only slut around with Alphas who have such an easy time getting sex, tend to assume that ALL men can get cheap sex that easily. Uh, no.
The exceptions are generally those who marry young — like the virgin/virgin couples you describe, who married at 21. Those women who intentionally delay marriage til later in life — almost always for the sake of education/career — usually have no intention of saving themselves. Or, in some cases, they just can’t seem to help it. (I’ve heard a story or 2 of Christian women who meant to wait, but got seduced out of their virginity by some Alpha and just “couldn’t believe it was happening”.)
Do not be decieved. Women have a lot LESS sexual self control than men. We often mistakenly believe the opposite, because men have much stronger drives (or, perhaps, we are just attracted to a much larger percent of the female population), so we have to restrain ourselves all the time, or we’ll end up in jail. But women, who very seldom get that aroused, are seemingly blindsided on the rare occasion when it happens, and don’t really know how to resist: “it just happened.”
*Incidentally.., off topic a bit…. the same is true for rape. Most rapes are committed by a small group of extreme repeat offenders who rack up large victim counts. So you end up with a lot of rape victims, but very, very few rapists — and most men are totally innocent.
Do not be decieved.
Do not be deceived,either.. I know the right spelling, that was a typo rather than a spelling error.
VR,
“Do not be decieved. Women have a lot LESS sexual self control than men. We often mistakenly believe the opposite, because men have much stronger drives (or, perhaps, we are just attracted to a much larger percent of the female population), so we have to restrain ourselves all the time, or we’ll end up in jail. But women, who very seldom get that aroused, are seemingly blindsided on the rare occasion when it happens, and don’t really know how to resist: “it just happened.”
I’m going to have to disagree with the points you’ve made above, although I suppose I can see (although I don’t agree) why your perception of a lot of women would be this way, if that is what you have repeatedly encountered. However, tell me if I’m wrong, but it seems like you believe most women are sl@ts and/or nymphomaniacs who have no (or very little) self control. I’m sure there’s other men who hold these beliefs as well, but I think the problem with this mentality (even if it is based on many observations rooted in truth) is that it seems to encourage and justify sexual harrassement, hostility and in some cases, even physical and sexual assault towards women due to the belief that there all “nothing but a bunch of wh*res anyways,” not even human beings really, and therefore unworthy of being treated with respect. Is it even possible for men to interact with women in a healthy way when they harbour these kinds of beIiefs about them? What about women who are not promiscuous? Are they guilty until they somehow prove themselves innocent? How would men who believe this feel if other men were saying this about women they care about? Wives, daughters, sisters, mothers, etc?
*Incidentally.., off topic a bit…. the same is true for rape. Most rapes are committed by a small group of extreme repeat offenders who rack up large victim counts. So you end up with a lot of rape victims, but very, very few rapists — and most men are totally innocent.”
I want to make sure I’m understanding clearly. When you say “most men are totally” innocent, do you mean men who have been accused of rape, or men in general?
“but I think the problem with this mentality (even if it is based on many observations rooted in truth) is that it seems to encourage and justify sexual harrassement, hostility and in some cases, even physical and sexual assault towards women due to the belief that there all “nothing but a bunch of wh*res anyways,” not even human beings really, and therefore unworthy of being treated with respect. Is it even possible for men to interact with women in a healthy way when they harbour these kinds of beIiefs about them?”
Okay, now we have an opinion based on a perceived outcome. Men aren’t to think a certain thing because of how it might effect women? We’re not supposed to base our actions on reality but instead climb in the hamster wheel of satisfying women? Thought police much?
If the reality is that women acting outside of the covering of a father or husband tends to be a slut then why should I think about it differently? To suit some feminists PC standard? I don’t think so. Paul tells women to stay under their covering and warns men to fulfill their obligations to wives and children (as servant leaders not feminist boot-lickers). If that wasn’t enough we can look at the general revelation that society is providing us by observing the head-long slide Western Civilization is making towards Hell.
Perspective’s comments in this thread haven’t made much sense to me.
But then I looked up the origin of the name Perspective, and found that it is derived from the Greek god Perspectivus, who was the god of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting “na na na na na I can’t HEAR you” until the other side gives up.
Having researched this etymology, my world became sane and self-consistent once again.
@ Perspective:
“it seems like you believe most women are sl@ts and/or nymphomaniacs who have no (or very little) self control.”
No. You’re missing the point. When a woman is aroused and attracted by a man, she will do anything sexual — ANYTHING — for or with that man. She’ll crawl over broken glass to be with him.
The point is that average women just aren’t aroused and attracted to that extent by any men except the MOST attractive. So when it happens for her – the man, the circumstances, the chemistry, the time, are all exactly right and her attraction/arousal triggers are all pulled – she is completely overwhelmed. The feelings of arousal and attraction are so great, so intoxicating, so irresistible, that she simply goes with it.
Hence the descriptions we men routinely hear from women about these encounters:
“It just happened.”
“He was so beautiful, I just couldn’t help myself!”
“I don’t know what happened. One minute we were talking, the next I was in his car, practically ripping his clothes off.”
That’s what we’re talking about. Most men never experience that with a woman, because we find most women at least minimally bangable and because we men have had to learn to control our sexual urges. Any man who did this with every woman he found attractive enough to have sex with would never have time for anything else and would have been put in jail long ago. Women are not always available to satisfy us. In fact, most of the time, most women are not sexually available to most men.
Women, on the other hand, don’t really learn to control those urges because (1) they are not as frequent as men’s are; and (2) they don’t have to learn to control them because a man will always be available to satisfy them.
I’m going to say this again, Pers, because I really don’t think you get this.
Most men get very, very little sex. Most men live in a sexual desert. They get almost no attention from women at all. Most women are not sexually available to most men.
By contrast, any woman at a 4 or above in physical attractiveness can get sex anytime she wants it. All she has to do is walk into the nearest bar, say “Who in here is DTF right now?” and she can simply select the most attractive man from among the men presenting themselves.
I Art Laughing,
“Okay, now we have an opinion based on a perceived outcome. Men aren’t to think a certain thing because of how it might effect women?”
Thoughts influence actions. The perceptions people have others tend to effect their treatment of them.
“We’re not supposed to base our actions on reality but instead climb in the hamster wheel of satisfying women? Thought police much?If the reality is that women acting outside of the covering of a father or husband tends to be a slut then why should I think about it differently? To suit some feminists PC standard? I don’t think so. Paul tells women to stay under their covering and warns men to fulfill their obligations to wives and children (as servant leaders not feminist boot-lickers). If that wasn’t enough we can look at the general revelation that society is providing us by observing the head-long slide Western Civilization is making towards Hell.
It’s not about a “climb in the hamster wheel of satisfying women, “thought police” or being a “feminist boot-licker.” It’s about taking each person as they come and not making demeaning generalizations about an entire group of people, e.g. referring to them as “sluts” because they are “outside of the covering of a father or husband.”
GL,
“perspective (n.)
late 14c., “science of optics,” from O.Fr. perspective, from M.L. perspectiva ars “science of optics,” from fem. of perspectivus “of sight, optical” from L. perspectus, pp. of perspicere “inspect, look through,” from per- “through” + specere “look at” (see scope (n.1)). Sense of “art of drawing objects so as to give appearance of distance or depth” is first found 1590s, influenced by It. prospettiva, an artists’ term. The figurative meaning “mental outlook over time” is first recorded 1762.”
To go completely off topic, perspective probably existed before the early renaissance, as the issue of Iconography (whether holy things could be depicted in three dimensions or only in two, or not at all) was one of the topics of debate between Rome and Constantinople in the early days of Christianity.
To go back on topic… if one person says thought = action and another says thought =/= action, both may be experientially true to the person saying it. One person may live in the societal context of being able to act on their every whim without concern. The other may live in a completely different and opposite societal context, that no whim may be acted on. I think thats the point people are making. For a woman, often enough thought can (and so does) equal action. For a man, often enough, thought cannot equal action, he has to wait for the woman to have the same thought. That may come off derogatory, but that’s not my intent.
My intent is to say that for you Perspective, certian actions may be the inevitable consequence of certian thoughts. For most men, the current societal context requires the opposite. The action has to be seperated from the thought, because the thought is individual (is private a better word?), the action involves someone else (it’s a public thing). It’s not that women don’t seperate the two, but that they aren’t expected to seperate their actions from their thoughts (or feelings) the way men are. That is perhaps why you assume that men’s thoughts must lead to certian inevitable actions. The truth is, men can have a very great many thoughts that they do not act upon, and that they understand they cannot act upon.
Problem is Pers, in taking you as you come I see that you expect men to not look at society as a whole at the feminist doctrine in toto and certainly not ascribe it pervasive nature to women in particular. The reason you stated was the red herring that in so doing it would contribute to an abusive attitude on the part of men towards women. Oops, so by suggesting that women in society are by and large slutting it up as never before men are falling under the sway of an attitude less than desirable for women? Boo-freaking-hoo. Unless men toe the feminist line they will be sent to bed without supper? Unless they have the proper Kool-Aid thoughts they will be broad brushed (a concept you don’t seem to like expressed towards womyn) with the tar of sexual deviant/predator?
Ask yourselves this guys, why? What is wrong with recognizing the slutiness of modern women?
Improper/insufficient Pedestalization.
IAL,
“Problem is Pers, in taking you as you come I see that you expect men to not look at society as a whole at the feminist doctrine in toto and certainly not ascribe it pervasive nature to women in particular.”
I’d like to make sure I’ve clearly understood the above points you’ve tried to convey, so I’ll paraphrase and please feel free to tell me where/if I’m wrong. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “in toto” but from my understanding it seems like you think I expect men to embrace feminism in its entirety, but without them acknowledging the negative aspects that some believe has resulted from it?
If this is what you believe, I’d like to be clear that that is not my intent. In one of my previous posts on this thread, I acually did express that although I would not condemn men or women who are promiscuous, NEITHER do I approve or agree with it. However, I don’t believe that feminism is to blame for this issue.There’s a lot of misconceptions surrounding feminism and that’s unfortunate. Just because a woman holds feminist views, does not mean she does believe in self-respect. So my issue is not with men who acknowledge promiscuity, it’s the often derogatory and vulgar manner in which it’s carried out. And the way that a lot of men seem to think most women by a certain age have engaged in “sl*ttery,” (whether it’s true or not) as some call it, or due to the belief that they didn’t have a man to “put them in their place.”
“The reason you stated was the red herring that in so doing it would contribute to an abusive attitude on the part of men towards women.”
How is this “red herring?” And if I’m wrong why is it that even some women who are decent and respectable have and are subject to abusive behaviours and sexual harrassment, crude remarks, and unwelcome groping from some men within in the workplace, at school, in public etc. It seems the men who engage in these behaviours justify it with beliefs that women are “only good for one thing,” or “they’re all a bunch of sl@ts and wh@res anyways.” etc. I can’t think of why else they would act that way.Can you?
“Oops, so by suggesting that women in society are by and large slutting it up as never before men are falling under the sway of an attitude less than desirable for women? Boo-freaking-hoo. Unless men toe the feminist line they will be sent to bed without supper? Unless they have the proper Kool-Aid thoughts they will be broad brushed (a concept you don’t seem to like expressed towards womyn) with the tar of sexual deviant/predator?”
I don’t think the feminists are making any threats here, at least not the ones I know. But with all the hostile, vulgar and contemptuous attitudes surrounding women and especially their sexuality, I really don’t understand how some men seem to expect that women should just keep quiet and accept it.
“Improper/insufficient Pedestalization”
What exactly do you mean by the above?
Me: (Forgot to add NOT before believe in previous post) “Just because a woman holds feminist views, does not mean she does not believe in self-respect.”
I
Actually, most of feminism tends to involve a lack of self-respect. Afterall, what self-respecting woman would take all the things that women exceed men at, and proceed to devalue them? What self-respecting woman would proceed to say that women will only have value when they are more like men? It certianly isn’t the men labelled this, that, or the other who are telling women that they aren’t of value, but the ‘feminists’.
I am not going to Church today to listen to the sermon; instead I read and re-read Deti at 11.56 on the 29th – absolutely on target – so I ‘d like to add: One of the reasons men are happy to boast or at least give a certain impression of their success with women, is because for all but a few, it is very rare and yet men often judge each other by their success with women (hence films with titles like ‘The 40 year old virgin”) – because as they know it is VERY hard work and a sexually successful guy is formidable and the envy of his peers – he instantly will attain Alpha status. The reason it matters is (as we know from Wagner’s Ring) that there is nothing for which men will give up the possibility of Love. Love (and thus sex) is what men seek over and above everything. You can climb Mt Everest, win the men’s final at Wimbledon or become a Rocket Scientist, but if you are poison to women men are contemptuous of you. The responsibility is entirely on the man all the time and the slightest misjudgement can kill the Gina tingle instantly. Women, by contrast, have no such concern for as Deti says they can, even if only a 4, go into any bar and select the most attractive guy for instant sexual gratification – indeed I’d suggest that it is usually the less good looking women who do this, as the good looking ones can and frequently do bask in the glow of male attention,- without thus needing to put out to gain affirmation of their desirability – or run the risk of obtaining a reputation for slutdom. Men are never put off sex, because the lighting is wrong or because the furnishings do not meet with their approval or for any other reason whatsoever.
As Deti says, even when it all goes wrong, women can shift the blame from themselves to the man in question – something a man can never do without looking like a petulant loser; for he will never obtain another man’s sympathy.
Abuse is conflated with biblical submission so often it is part and parcel with the feminist schtick. Are the feminists suggesting that properly feminized men (or women for that matter) are incapable of violence? It seems so. That is why also conflating a New Testament understanding of gender roles and promiscuity with abuse IS a red herring. I have observed matricide in matriarchal societies. I’m not buying the nonsense about the overarching evils of patriarchy, nor am I buying the exceedingly liquid and convenient values of feminism. (Kind of reminds me of a conversation someone around here on what the definition an purpose of Game recently).
In my book feminism is a humanistic (read idolatrous) religion with an imaginary goddess enthroned on it shrine in which most women see some reflection of their perfect selves while observant men see a opportunistic castrating whore. Feminism sitting astride the Beast of the West is Mystery Babylon in my book and like Jezebel she is going to get cast down. I don’t see it as a doctrine of equality, I see it as an ideology of domination.
I watched Alice Walker (author of “The Color Purple”) on Friday extolling the virtues of the coming global matriarchy, talking about “Democratic Socialist Feminism”…..apparently the reason socialism has failed everywhere is not that it is a broken religion but rather that it has never been operated solely from the purity of female hearts. Until feminists own the words that come out of their collective mouths discerning human beings should not let them sit at the adults table.
P.S. feminism IS a threat. It is rebellion against ALL authority, not just masculine but Godly authority. It will never abide the peace and security of an obedient and repentant child (in God the Fathers Kingdom). It’s a greedy and grasping tyranny and it can be nothing other than such. It something that needs to be repented of not something to be condoned, defended or applauded.
IAL,
“Abuse is conflated with biblical submission so often it is part and parcel with the feminist schtick. Are the feminists suggesting that properly feminized men (or women for that matter) are incapable of violence? It seems so. That is why also conflating a New Testament understanding of gender roles and promiscuity with abuse IS a red herring. I have observed matricide in matriarchal societies. I’m not buying the nonsense about the overarching evils of patriarchy, nor am I buying the exceedingly liquid and convenient values of feminism…”
Feminism isn’t about believing that women are perfect or can do wrong. It’s about equality; contrary to what many seem to think. Just because feminists criticise certain aspects of patriarchy, doesn’t mean they’re saying it’s “evil.” If anything, it’s seems more like the other way around.
“In my book feminism is a humanistic (read idolatrous) religion with an imaginary goddess enthroned on it shrine in which most women see some reflection of their perfect selves while observant men see a opportunistic castrating whore.”
You seem to feel very strongly about the subject, but are insults and name calling really necessary to get your point across?
“Feminism sitting astride the Beast of the West is Mystery Babylon in my book and like Jezebel she is going to get cast down. I don’t see it as a doctrine of equality, I see it as an ideology of domination. ”
The feminists I know do not wish to dominate. They are simply people who see themselves as just that- people. People who wish to be treated equally to other people and to have opportunities based on merit, not on gender.
“P.S. feminism IS a threat. It is rebellion against ALL authority, not just masculine but Godly authority. It will never abide the peace and security of an obedient and repentant child (in God the Fathers Kingdom). It’s a greedy and grasping tyranny and it can be nothing other than such. It something that needs to be repented of not something to be condoned, defended or applauded.”
I’ve tried to be respectful, but I’m not sure if you want a dialogue or to simply judge and condemn those who believe differently than you, but nonetheless, thank you for sharing your views. Although I knew feminism is not a poppular stance, reading your post has taken my understanding of that to another level.
Me: (Forgot to add no in front of wrong) “Feminism isn’t about believing that women are perfect or can do no wrong.”
“Actually, most of feminism tends to involve a lack of self-respect.”
Some adherents of feminism have had a miscontrued and misguided concept of what feminism is really about and that might account for some of the negativity directed towards the movement. It was never supposed to be about women not respecting themselves or ceasing to act like ladies. And of course, there’s non-feminists who are anything but respectful, feminine and lady-like.
“Afterall, what self-respecting woman would take all the things that women exceed men at, and proceed to devalue them? What self-respecting woman would proceed to say that women will only have value when they are more like men? It certianly isn’t the men labelled this, that, or the other who are telling women that they aren’t of value, but the ‘feminists’.”
Some might dismiss this as a NAWALT or rather a NAFALT argument, but many feminists in fact hold marriage, family and children in very high esteem, but unfortunately they’re sometimes viewed as selfish simply because in addition to being mothers and wives, they also wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits.
The first lie of feminism is that it is about equality.
Satan just wanted to be equal too:
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”
(Isa 14:12-15)
Also mistaking equal value for equal roles or equal purpose is to ignore so much scripture as to be utterly ridiculous. God values women every bit as much as any man, this we know. However, He doesn’t condone a Title 9 like grasping at equality across the board.
“Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.”
(Eph 5:33)
“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”
(Rom 12:3-5)
So often the “equality” doctrine of feminists is nothing more than a veiled attempt at making every woman a head. (“Equal”). When in fact they are doing nothing more than expressing a complete ignorance of the Gospel. That is why that particular humanist religion is incompatible with the Gospel.
“but unfortunately they’re sometimes viewed as selfish simply because in addition to being mothers and wives, they also wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits.”
LOL!
I covered this one pretty well:
http://empathological.wordpress.com/2012/05/04/work-provision-from-god-or-means-to-rebel/
If those pursuits not done for the benefit of others they ARE selfish. You are obviously a secularist. Natural talents? Granted to you by what? Luck and evolution?
Me: “but unfortunately they’re sometimes viewed as selfish simply because in addition to being mothers and wives, they also wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits.”
“LOL!”
I don’t see how that statement was cause for a “LOL,” but I’d say we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
“If those pursuits not done for the benefit of others they ARE selfish.”
If a family were facing financial difficulties and/or the husband loses his job or becomes ill and unable to work, do you not think that he and his family would benefit from his wife being able to work and/or furthering her education?
“Natural talents? Granted to you by what? Luck and evolution?
Not sure what luck and evolution has to do with it. The natural talents a person has are usually the result of being born with them, and then honed and improved upon with continuous work.
“but unfortunately they’re sometimes viewed as selfish simply because in addition to being mothers and wives, they also wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits.”
More moving goalpost nonsense from the feminist secularist.
“If a family were facing financial difficulties and/or the husband loses his job or becomes ill and unable to work, do you not think that he and his family would benefit from his wife being able to work and/or furthering her education?”
Is this what “wishing” is all about? You are honestly saying that mothers and wives “wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits” in order to help her family in case of financial difficulties, spousal illness and so forth? You expect to pass those to motives off as one and the same. LOL. One is the standard “I am Goddess, I need to reach my full potential as a human being.” (the “wish”), the other is I need to go to work in order to bail out my family (the reality).
Your skills, intelligence and natural talents arise out of some self-realized, self-actualized, self-creation. To quote the POTUS, “You didn’t build that”.
Trying to nail down a definition of ‘feminism’ can be as endless an exercise as trying to nail down a definition of ‘marxism’ when it comes to debating the merits and flaws with an apologist for the ideology. If a flaw is found in the ideology, the flaw is categorised at that moment, not really a part of the ideology. So I won’t chase it down too long. That said, can any definition of ‘feminism’ be created that does not compare women to men, and find women to be lacking? Yes there is a variety of explnations used in how it is that men are to blame for the things in which a woman lacks depending on one’s ‘version’ of feminism, but don’t all feminist arguments start with a comparison of men and women, and the women being the lesser of the two, a balance that needs to be corrected? Has a feminist ever asked herself what role feminist women might be playing at actually moving women’s rights in the wrong direction because of that initial premise that women are not currently equal to men?
To abstract things a little bit, which do you think would be a better way of advancing your esteem among your peers: Faking confidence until people have faith enough in you that the confidence becomes real? Or, painting a pessimistic picture of your own potential until people have enough sympathy to try to pull you out of your pessimism? I’ve had several female bosses, not a single one of them preached feminism, because their confidence and ability carried them a whole lot further than sympathy for some self-imposed plight ever could.
“More moving goalpost nonsense from the feminist secularist.”
I think it’s been established that you disagree with my views (and I with yours) but that alone is not enough to qualify my post as nonsense. You’ve commented about my supposed “secularism” but never have I once spoken of my religious views. And no,feminism is not a religion, it is more consistent with a political ideology.
“Is this what “wishing” is all about? You are honestly saying that mothers and wives “wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits” in order to help her family in case of financial difficulties, spousal illness and so forth? You expect to pass those to motives off as one and the same. LOL. One is the standard “I am Goddess, I need to reach my full potential as a human being.” (the “wish”), the other is I need to go to work in order to bail out my family (the reality).”
Did you not read my question? I never said that was what “wishing is all about.” I simply asked if it would be of some benefit to a wife’s husband and children in the face of certain difficulties.
“Your skills, intelligence and natural talents arise out of some self-realized, self-actualized, self-creation. To quote the POTUS, “You didn’t build that”.
Again, we’re going to agree to disagree. The more I read your responses, the more I’m convinced you’re not looking at all for dialogue but rather to condemn, judge and mock and those who believe differently than you and that’s unfortunate. Good day.
Feminism is a belief system. It is more of a religion than is preached in most of the churches in the West, in fact it IS the religion that is preached in most of the churches in the West. Feminism is about the fulfillment of women collectively and individually, it isn’t about self-sacrifice (the opposite of the grasping nature of feminism and feminists). That is categorically clear.
Feminism and it’s proponents are worthy of derision. It is the equivalent in my mind of someone trying to posit a sensible argument as to why it is fun and healthy to finger-paint with their own excrement. It natural that so many women gravitate to an ideology that totally coddles them and requires nothing from them but to suck up unearned accolades and to defend it to their last breath. No surprises there.
Why would you come here and put up a defense of feminism if you were looking to see it rightfully “condemned, judged, and mocked”? Troll?
Unless you were looking to see it rightfully “condemned, judged and mocked”?
“Why would you come here and put up a defense of feminism if you were looking to see it rightfully “condemned, judged, and mocked”? Troll?”
Nope, sorry not a troll. Was never looking for approval, but rather dialogue. Dialogue is sometimes possible between opposing views, but sometimes not and that’s ok.
Kinda like a Satanist showing up at the Body of Christ, I gotcha.
Or a vegan at a barbeque competition, if that is less offensive?.
“Or a vegan at a barbeque competition, if that is less offensive?”
Although I highly doubt you’re concerned as to whether or not you’ve offended the “feminist” I’m rather immune at this point and besides, I think I can recognize a veiled, albeit an ineffective attempt of one trying to “put me in my place” when I see it. Look, I get it. You’re not down with my views and I with yours. This has already been established, no?
Yeah, problem is that I’m sick of the fembots feeling an obligatory right to mark “their” territory by befouling every branch and rivulet of every public conversation and riding PC herd marking their territory wherever they go. Your opinions just don’t matter that much, they aren’t interesting or original. In fact if you had any idea how totally predictable you were that would be the first evidence that you grokked anything being said here. The fact that you can’t makes it that much funnier.
Heh.
“Yeah, problem is that I’m sick of the fembots feeling an obligatory right to mark “their” territory by befouling every branch and rivulet of every public conversation and riding PC herd marking their territory wherever they go. Your opinions just don’t matter that much, they aren’t interesting or original. In fact if you had any idea how totally predictable you were that would be the first evidence that you grokked anything being said here. The fact that you can’t makes it that much funnier.”
A “public conversation and riding” means everyone from the public may share their opinions. Believe what you want but realize others are free to do the same.
Funny, that’s never how the feminists see it.
Here is a perspective, Female Hypoagency.
Yeah, you exhibit it.
The Tyranny of Female Hypoagency:
The sentiments expressed on this article and in the comments reek of “playing it safe” and the concept that “there isn’t enough for everybody”. It reminds me of how my parents told me that because I am black and a woman, my dreams of becoming a fiction writer had zero chance of becoming true, and that I had better play it safe and get a career, specifically in the medical field. While they are right that being a black woman can make things more challenging, and they are right that its safer to find a steady career, how do they know that I couldn’t be the next J.K. Rowling? I mean, it’s not likely, but its possible, just like many things are possible in life. Telling a woman in her 30s that she should focus on settling and that she can’t have the best in life because of her age is silly. Is marriage the most important thing in life, or is the ability to be happy, confident, and positive regardless of what a person “has” or thinks they “don’t have” more important? I am 29 and I have a lot more men wanting to be serious and committed to me than I did at 21. Yes I’m attractive and have been considered attractive for a long while. But at 21, I lacked emotional maturity. Now I am maturing and growing spiritually. I used to beat myself up all the time and feel worthless for many years. Now I refuse to cause myself unhappiness and feel guilt and sadness over my past mistakes, and my love life improves as my self-esteem does. When women get “pumped and dumped” by Alphas or whatever, it’s not the Alpha men that are the problem. I see Alpha men getting married all the time. It’s when a woman does not know her own worth and value that she ends up getting “pumped and dumped.” You have to love yourself whether you are 21 with full lips and perky breasts or whether you are 31 and single or 45 and nearing menopause. Sometimes you have to tune out other people because people are full of negative baggage, anger, expectations, jealousy and pessimism. Just a thought.
I like the same youtuber’s video on Male Disposability, I saw it just the other day and was blown away. That women is brilliant.
Jojo:
Interesting comment. The point of the post is “advice to women over 30 looking to marry”. For me the issue is:
“what is a 30+ YO woman willing to do to find a suitable marriage partner?”
That’s really what it comes down to, beginning and end. It is about deciding what is important, and then forming a plan to get it for yourself.
No one here is telling any 30+ woman that she needs to settle and that she can’t have the best in life. However, in this SMP, if what that woman wants is to marry, she needs to get real. She is not going to get George Clooney or Brad Pitt or Christian Grey to marry her. That’s just not going to happen. But make no mistake: that’s what she expects. She still thinks she is as hot at 31 as she was at 21. She still thinks she can attract the same hot men for marriage at 31 as she could attract for sex at 21.
It’s great for you, Jojo, if you are still getting the hot men at 29. Most women can’t and don’t. Your telling them otherwise does them a disservice and will relegate them to spinster status.
As Jojo breaks out into strains of 29/31…..
“I’m hitting my stride!”
Being 3/4’s of the way into a mile means something, it means you haven’t haven’t hit “the wall” yet. I have been there on the brink of setting my peronsal best many times (as a young man) only to feel like someone kicked me in the groin in the last turn, you gut it out. No points for style.
You’re MMV (and SMV) are going to decline steeply and everything you have figured out now is going to get tossed to the curb (along with your ability to pass along your DNA in a meaningful way inside of the next decade).
Good luck with that.
Oh yeah, and Jojo. Don’t miss out on the benefits of playing it safe by resorting to the tried and true feminist tactic of hypoagency, it’s a strategy that has worked for centuries. On the other hand you could be all the woman that you can be and die with a house full of cats.
Hey deti, i agree, you make some good points. To me this is an interesting discussion. I dont pretend to know everything or anything. We all try to do the best we can. It is hard to understand the opposite sex on your own and i actually had to resort to reading books. I appreciate all men and feel life is richer with a good man. Let me just say that personally, I’m not looking for or chasing a hottie, lol. All I need is to be attracted enough to be able to have sex. Of course you examine things like compatibility,but I have never been the one stuck on the hottest guy. I look at things other than looks, ever since I first started navigating the dating world, with no direction, guidance, and a plethora of misinformation, like most people who grew up in the West. The man I am seeing right now, I adore. But I still vet him to see how committed he is. I make no illusions about my looks or aging. I have been blessed to be able to maintain good looks through taking good care of myself, but I know if I didn’t work out as religiously as i do or eat well, i wouldn’t still be as attractive at this stage. I didn’t just now sit up and start looking for a future husband. I have been looking in the past. The problem is that when a woman gets desperate, which can happen at 21 or 31, it invites mistreatment. Same for men. I guess this just reflects how I feel on the subject, but I learned the hard way that you have to, have to, have to love yourself. In fact you cant even give love without loving yourself. I am probably off subject, I realize that. But I read a lot of philosophical books, because there was a time that I focused obsessively on getting married, to my own detriment.
I actually had to look that up, hypo agency. Its interesting, as are the points you make. But I am actively dating and taking charge of my love life. I am active and proactive in meeting and hopefully settling down with a man who is ready. I really like someone and he really likes me. I would love for it to work out. I hope we make it. I was talking about upping your own value and worth as a woman so that someone actually wants to be with you. It’s a different approach. It’s not just about running after anyone who will have you. We don’t have to agree, no problem. Thanks.
I’m curious how a 29 year old woman goes about “upping her own value and worth as a woman”? More degree’s, more travel, more sexual partners? I suspect what a women finds valuable in herself and what a potential spouse find valuable are two different things nearly 100% of the time. Does “taking charge of your love life” include chastity? Or are you trying to sell a Holstein to a man drowning in free milk?
“The problem is that when a woman gets desperate, which can happen at 21 or 31, it invites mistreatment.”
Translation: Aging and having the realization that you can’t ride the carousal forever are an invitation to mistreatment.
If a man is desperate he’s pathetic, if a woman is desperate she’s a victim.
Perspective: However, tell me if I’m wrong, but it seems like you believe most women are sl@ts and/or nymphomaniacs who have no (or very little) self control.
Most women have very little sexual self control… in the presence of the extremely small percentage of the male population that they find attractive.
In a few occasions, that was me, and I had to fend off seductions from “Christian” women.
vR Most rapes are committed by a small group of extreme repeat offenders who rack up large victim counts. So you end up with a lot of rape victims, but very, very few rapists — and most men are totally innocent.”
Persp: I want to make sure I’m understanding clearly. When you say “most men are totally” innocent, do you mean men who have been accused of rape, or men in general?
In context, I was referring to the fact that most men, in general, are not, and never will be, rapists. But the very few who do commit rape, loom large in women’s consciousness (understandably so). This is the root of the “rape culture” falsehood — since victims are everywhere, feminists apparently presume perps are equally ubiqutious, and from this logical error they almost can’t help but conclude that “all men” must be complicit in some way (Uh, no), and that “men can stop rape” if we really want to (Alas, no.) All men are being blamed for the conduct of a small minority over whom we have no control whatsoever, other than legal prosecution after the fact.
I brought it up because I thought it was a useful analogy to the “Alpha” apex fallacy. Alphas are only a very small percentage of men. But they loom large in womens’ field of view, and it is common for women to falsely attribute lawless Alpha behavior – casual promiscuity, committophobia, philandering, etc — to all men. (Uh, no.)
It is true that there are a distressingly large number of false accusations (see, for example, the Innocence Project, which has unmasked many such.) I don’t believe however that “most” accused men are innocent, though even the low estimate of 10% intentional false accusations is distressingly high. But that wasn’t my point.
I art laughing: I’m curious how a 29 year old woman goes about “upping her own value and worth as a woman”? More degree’s, more travel, more sexual partners?
Projection at its finest. Those are the things that women find appealing in men. Degrees and travel have no impact… yes, i really do mean, absolutely zero impact… on your appeal to men.
For a man to be sexually experienced, generally makes him more appealing to women (even religious women who in theory should prefer a virgin man… though there are a few exceptions.) However, racking up higher numbers of sex partners is a definite NEGATIVE for most men, though, again, there are exceptions — a substantial minority that doesn’t care and a smaller minority that fetishizes it.
Attraction is not compatibility. but you’ll never get to know someone long enough to assess compatibility, unless there is attraction first. Attraction triggers for men are looks and youth. Cut carbs and hit the gym if you need to. Maybe upgrade the wardrobe a bit (but your new outfits should attraction-telegraphing, not status telegraphing)., and don’t put off the husband quest a moment longer.
Attraction triggers for men are looks and status. Degrees, travel, and (in many social circles) prior sexual experience, are status signals. They attract women. Men don’t notice them. (If you are comparably educated, that MAY be an aspect of compatibility… but compatibility is not attraction).
Or are you trying to sell a Holstein to a man drowning in free milk?
Only the small percentage of Alpha males are drowning in free milk.
Most men are dying of thirst.
Thanks for your reply
Lol, well no, it’s about being a more feminine woman, a woman who is authentic. Its about recognizing the importance of spirituality. It’s being able to love and to let go of baggage and negative opinions about life and relationships. Yes, its about sexual self control as well. To me, building value has nothing to do with your degrees or your extent of travel. It is the willingness to be vulnerable, which is a challenge for men and women. Men don’t want to be vulnerable with a woman who could up and leave them at any time.
The Western world is a tricky one to navigate. This is a place where the emphasis is on career and achievement for males and females. My own family was adamant about me pursuing a good career, but never a relationship.
I did the best I could, with the limited knowledge I have, and I can’t punish myself for that, even if you and others like you are so eager to do that. Because if i listened to negativity, I literally might jump off a bridge. Lol
I understand all the frustration here. It is hard because in the old world, or in foreign places, there is an effort to preserve women and groom them for marriage, so that there is enough to go around, and you don’t have to worry about a woman cheating. It’s for the purpose of fairness, I get that. In parts of Africa, it is so important to preserve women that they actually cut off the clitoris and sew up the vagina, for the husband to cut open upon the wedding day. By the way, usually the wedding day happens around age 13.
warning: graphic
I am doing my part to keep sane in a crazy world. I am currently in a relationship that I pray will last. Just trying to be a happy person so that others actually want to be around me. People want to be around happy, confident people period.
vR, I thought that comment out pretty well. That is exactly what I meant to say. I also meant to emphasize the actual attempt at selling the milk. They aren’t interested in men who honestly want to OWN the cow and invest in it, they are more interested in trading sex for status and money. Which is why some men are drowning in milk.
Your approach doesn’t sound dysfunctional Jojo.
Honestly, God Bless.
It reminds me of how my parents told me that because I am black and a woman, my dreams of becoming a fiction writer had zero chance of becoming true,
Hadn’t they heard of of Octavia Butler?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octavia_E._Butler
Anonymous, Jen, and any other 30 & 40 year olds looking to marry a good man,
I think a lot of posters here have been overly pessimistic and negative about your chances of finding a good man to marry. It can and does happen all the time for women in their 30’s. It does happen for women in their 40’s. Don’t let the negative posts degrade your hope and faith.
My wife was 37 and I was 38 when we got married. It was the first marriage for each of us. Years later we are still happily married.
One set of my grandparents married when he was 38 and she was 41. First marriage for each of them. I worked with a guy who married for the first time at age 44. His wife was about the same age. She was divorced with one kid.
I was in a large singles group in a large church. I saw a 35 year old with 3 kids find a nice guy and get married. Lots of of other 30 years olds found guys in that group. I saw 2 couple in their 50’s tie the knot.
I will be turning 30 in a week and I have to say I am becoming more open to the idea of older men 45-60 whom have raised kids and are divorced or never married. There is a very good chance that I can’t even have children, so that wouldn’t be a problem. If the man was open to having a child, I wouldn’t mind trying for a child or adopting a child. Also there is the advantage of looking young to these men, yet being more mature than a 20-25 year old. Nor do I have a sugar daddy complex. If these older men are set in their single ways, well same here, so it would be a learning experience for both. I don’t mind staying single either…. with the exception of one year, I have experienced singledom all through my 20’s. I believe that there is a partner for anyone out there who desires to marry, no matter their age. I’m sure if my career was a big deal, I would feel differently though. If I don’t ever marry, I don’t really foresee myself doing anything differently than I have done for the past 10 years.
Bee:
I don’t think we’re being negative. We’re realistic. Too many 30-something women expect marriage proposals from the alphas they used to date and sex up. It’s just not going to happen. The number one thing a woman at 30 needs to do is lower her standards.
The fact is a woman of 30 looking to marry is probably not going to marry as well at 30 as she could have at 22 or 23. She won’t be able to have children as easily, or as many of them. She just won’t. She is less physically attractive at age 30 than she was in her late teens and early 20s, and that limits the men willing to consider her for marriage. She has probably had a number of sex partners, because almost no woman in this SMP makes it to 30 without at least one sex partner, and probably more than that.
So by all means she should not give up. But she needs a dose of realism too.
It’s not that women in their 30’s or 40’s can’t find a husband. It’s that if she has the same world-revolves-around-you mentality or misandrist viewpoints they could get away with in their twenties, it’s going to be tough sledding in their 30’s and 40’s. Yes, women can mature past that 20’s mindset, present social norms encourage women to dive further into that 20’s mindset. I don’t think anyone has said a woman can’t get married past 20, they’ve said that a woman can’t get married to their make-believe alpha male who is marriage compatable in their 30’s and 40’s. It’s hard enough for a woman to pull that off in their 20’s.
deti & TCM Tom,
One post said that Anonymous should give up and joint a convent. I thought that was mean, snarky, and not constructive.
Two reasons why I thought posts that compared and contrasted the market value of women in their 30’s to women in their 20’s were overly negative.
1. When someone approaches you for help, It is bad counseling technique to begin with the constructive criticism. Consider this example. You are hiking in a rural area. You hear cries for help from abandoned water well. A woman in her 30’s has fallen into the well. You happen to have a strong rope in your day pack. Before lowering the rope you lecture her, “you should have been more careful, you should not have been texting while you were walking.” As you coach her on tying the rope around her waist you notice that she is 20 pounds over weight. Your next comment is, “if you had kept your weigh down, you would be a lot easier to help now.” At this point in time everything you have told her is true, but these are issues that she can not change right now. She can not go back and change the mistakes she made in her 20’s. My approach is to pull her out of the well first and then talk with her about correcting her mistakes and making changes going forward.
2. I failed to connect the dots on your arguments. Only when I reflected more deeply on your last post did I realize that your reason for highlighting their decreased market value was to motivate them to lower and eliminate unreasonable expectations. My bad, sorry I did not catch on to that earlier.
I agree with you that lowering and eliminating some expectations are critical. If they are in their 30’s finding a guy worth marrying is hard work. It will need to be a goal that is moved up high on their priority list. Changing geography and/or changing churches may be necessary.
Jean,
Kudo’s to you for being content and comfortable with being single if necessary.
Kudo’s to you for lowering your expectations and being willing to consider an older man.
A word of caution. Don’t assume that just because a man is older that he is necessary better than a guy your own age. You will still need to use a lot of discernment, caution, detective work, and interview skills to make sure he is a good catch.
Some older men are more mature and mellow than younger men. But, some older men have just piled up more time to reinforce bad habits and bad attitudes. Be especially on the lookout for older men that have never tried to improve their character flaws. Be on the lookout for men who have been stockpiling bitterness, resentment, jealousy, and/or victimhood. Many second and third marriages end in divorce because a partner with unresolved bitterness/resentment projects that onto the new mate.
Bee said: “When someone approaches you for help, It is bad counseling technique to begin with the constructive criticism.”
Most people here don’t consider this a place to hand out advice to women; Dalrock’s title aside. You seem to think that we should care what a thirty year old re-re-virgin thinks about our opinion, or that we would be interested in using our ropes to rescue someone who intentionally jumped down the well and shows every willingness to do it again at the first opportunity. I think that your “women need to be rescued” analogy is very indicative, it conveniently ignores their agency and hastily transfers their plight and all responsibility to the grown up at the top of the hole with the rope. That analogy objectifies the woman.
“At this point in time everything you have told her is true, but these are issues that she can not change right now. She can not go back and change the mistakes she made in her 20’s.”
No, but she can stop making those same mistakes in her thirties. And she can stop having white knights chucking their wicks around in the hopes that they might get them wet. Are they willing to work their way out of the well so that they will be some earthly good or will they insist on being infantilized by men who can’t keep their “Rescue Ranger” in check?
There is an old saw we go by when in ministry: “Don’t fix the fix that God put in place.” If God put’s people into a predicament sometimes the worst solution is to resolve for them. If they insist on not exhibiting any agency in the form of repentance (unwilling to help themselves) then usually it’s best to let them stew.
“For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.”
(2Th 3:10-12)
Subsidizing bad behavior only encourages it. Not letting the unrepentant find bottom is evil.
Bee, I Art Laughing makes a good point regarding ‘agency’ in your allegory. The thing really is, that to move forward, first you have to admit there is something to move forward from. If an individual cannot do it on their own, if someone else means to help them, they first have to help them see what they need to move on from. Not everyone can be helped by counseling (that’s what I gather reading C.G. Jung’s discusssion of psychotherapy) but no one can be helped without knowing the problem. Now, if pretending to have made no mistakes, having no regrets, is all just a bit of attempted self deception, and the mistakes made are actually known, there’s no need to dwell on them. But, if that self deception has been successful, the first step at moving forward is for that self deception to be dispelled.
I Art Laughing,
This specific post and its comment thread were set aside by Dalrock as a place for advice for women looking to change. A quote from Dalrock’s post:
“I decided to respond to this in the form of a post largely because I hope to enlist my readers in this process as well. If you have any kind wisdom to share with her, please do so.”
The tough love approach you advocate is an important and necessary method in counseling. But it should only be used on repeat offenders. If the woman out for a hike falls into the same well a second time, then letting her stew and contemplate her mistake is appropriate.
Assigning “homework” to assess the seriousness of a help seeker is a good filtering method.
Bee, any single women in her thirties IS a “repeat offender”.
@FM
JSL, Lia and jojo, what on earth did I just read from you bunch of angry, bitching yentas? Thanks to Deti for sorting through that trash! I couldn’t even stomach it.
I’ll keep saying it. No woman over 30 is worth marriage. None, no exceptions.
Yes! Thank goodness for Deti and the hamsterlation….I am always confused by these wimminz moronic posts..that is until,Deti translates for me.Also,”YENTAS”……avoid them at all cost! You will never have enough money for them…and they will spend you broke! How do I know this….simple really…I am Jewish!
The one thing that really “irks” me the wrong way is that you will notice that all the Femi-Nazi leaders that created the Femi-Nazi movement and write all the books are Jewish! As a Jew myself this pisses me off to no end! I avoid Jewish women like the plague! If you know any Jewish wimminz take notice of something next time.You will see the Yentas or JAPs(Jewish American Princesses) with the most butt ugly men you could imagine.Why are they with them?..Simple!….MONEY!!!!!! They are the greediest,materialistic,shallow wimmin that you will ever meet!…I know lots of them! My parents always insisted that I marry a Jewish woman….I laugh it this! If I married a Jewish women,within 2 years she would own EVERYTHING that I have…and I would be left without a pot to piss in!….GUARANTEED!
@Opus
“”She says he blames it on mutually incompatible religions ( why am I getting the feeling Pillish is Jewish?) “”
I agree! I was thinking the same thing reading her post.As a Jew that was my first notion!
@Mark
Pillish rather reminded me of my (ex) american Jewish girlfriend and her endless excuses.
I have avoided responding to a lot of these. Some were false accusations, misconceptions about things I wrote, and some of them actually made me laugh. The last comment I wrote, I had meant it would have been frustrating to date me at 24,25,26. I didn’t know what I was doing in this world, what I wanted to do, or who with. I drove myself nuts part of the time let alone being with a partner. I knew I wanted to be able to take care of myself, travel, explore, and guys my age who were looking for a wife at that time didn’t want to do that. 30 is young in most places today, and with the divorce rate being what it is, no wonder educated people in today’s society choose to wait before making a commitment like that. I’m glad I was able to have my own adventures, get to know the world, grow as a person so I could make a good wife eventually, and figure out who I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, is humor more important then math skills? ( just an example) I spent over 2 years finding an apartment in a city to buy and knew I wasn’t going to be with that apartment till I died, this is a big decision for both parties to make, and with the world being as it is in this generation wouldn’t you rather marry a woman who I sure of her self and her choices instead of a 26 year old who has only been living on her own out of school for 3 years?
@Deti
“”Jenn, there are few things less attractive to men than a woman who acts, talks, and/or looks like a man.””
Lmao!……….you just described a womyn cop…….they dress like men…..act like men….they are a joke!…I love talking to wimmin cops……”Yes Sir”…”No Sir”……Their response….”Do I look like a man to you”??……”YES! you do!…..a short,angry man with boobs”…..Lol!
@Deti
“”you shall definitely not have a chihuahua named “Bruiser”. In fact, you shall not own a chihuahua.””
Wouldn’t a chihuahua or a cat make good food for Jenn’s snake?……just saying!
@DaringHart
“”b. Such women tend to act like men. They don’t tend toward the feminine in speech, manner or dress. Jenn, there are few things less attractive to men than a woman who acts, talks, and/or looks like a man.
I see this as the #1 problem with today’s female. There is NOTHING that turns a man off faster than this….. otherwise we would be gay. Loud, obnoxious, cursing women….YUCK. Check back on these girls in a few years. Old, wrinkled, alone.””
Yes!…..I agree!…..you just described a Womyn Cop!……UGH!
@Deti
“”So it’s been pointed out to me that Clint Eastwood owned an orangutan in one of his movies.””
Every Which Way But Loose was the movie. But yet,remember Michael Jackson at the Grammy or Oscars..etc..etc.Everyone else brings a date.Not Mikey….he brings a fucking monkey! Probably screwing it also!
@Dominique
“”Reversing the whole “friend zone” game can be a man’s best friend, because it takes all of the so called power away from women. From a distance they come off as “good” catches, but with me being on the inside, I can tell you that they ain’t worth the trouble, energy, time, resources, and mental headaches and heartache. But they all think they are well deserving. One is a weed-head, big f**king deal you’re a V.P. at a major bank. One has sex for sport, because that’s all she thinks men are good for. One has such high expectations that I know there is no man on this earth can meet even half of them, but at the same time she brings nothing to the table, but herself and her sorry p**sy. (I had the chance to sample it; a waste of a good condom and hard-on) One stands 5’6” and weighs over 250lbs, but wants only a man who’s in shape and works out regularly. One is in debt of over $100,000 and was before she just purchased a house and a new SUV a few months ago. And one is starting to develop the signs and symptoms of per-menapouse, but demands for any man she dates needs to stay on hard, have “staying power”, and must be longer than her hand!!””
Awesome post!………shows you how delusional these moronic women are! Just to add something.I was speaking to a 26 male stock broker the other day.I inquired as to why he was not “sport fucking” any of the women in the office.He told me..”fuck that noise!…all those women are fucked in the head…all they do is go home and take off their clothes for strange men on the internet on webcam….no thanks!”……Lmao! I laughed my ass off….but I believe him! Shows you the “classy” wimmin that he has to look forward to!….NOT!…..LOL!
This is an amazing article- I am a 31 yr old female who has finally found a man to marry! He is in his mid thirtes. I have to say, for me, I have spent years dating alphas and had sexual relationships with a few- my fiance now is not an alpha but is an amazing man. I have made compromises- a good job over height (he is my height – 5 feet 9 ish), he doesnt look quite like the men i’m used to dating but he is solid, has an amazing job which is a useful bonus in these tough economic times but finally I am at that stage where I don’t feel i’ve settled- I just feel very very blessed to find someone like that.
I have never been an angel and I do regret some of my past actions but it makes you who are, Despite the comments here, being in ur 30s does NOT make you old- you are older and wiser- that is all. Personally I have been blessed with still looking like I am in my 20s but that is another matter 😉 People are living well into their 80s and provided you look after yourself there is nothing negative about being over 30.
I’m a 32 year old virgin woman (soon to be 33 in January) who looks considerably young for my age. This could be due to not partaking in a “party lifestyle” at any point, even during college, I stayed away from drinking and sleeping around. I have had two boyfriends but they were both long distance relationships where we never went all the way, so I’m not completely inexperienced as far as relationships go. As far as my standards go in a partner, looks are not of major importance to me, but intelligence and humor are. That is why it is difficult for me to maintain interest in someone, no matter how good looking they may be.
One of the reasons I’m still single is because I live with my parents as of now due to economical reasons, and when I wasn’t living with my parents, I was extremely shy and self-conscious due to being overweight and symptoms of Asperger’s Syndrome. I have since lost a good amount of weight, not to mention letting my hair grow long, and am planning a move in a couple of months to a major city after I have saved up enough money. I would like to have a relationship that would eventually lead towards marriage. I am not sure how to go about dating. I’d like to avoid places where hook-ups and casual sexual encounters are encouraged. I know that my age would be working against me. I also have to worry about my older brother who lives in the city in which I am planning a move because I know he is going to size up any person that I might date. I guess if there will be a movie for a 40 year old female virgin, I will be a likely candidate.
So if anyone has any advice on how to go about choosing a life partner, please help me out.
Christine, a question in my mind is this? What do you want to bring to a marriage? And a follow up: what do you expect from a marriage? Do you want to find a good man to submit and commit to, or do you want to find a pet man who you can have submit and commit to you?
I knew I wanted to be able to take care of myself, travel, explore, and guys my age who were looking for a wife at that time didn’t want to do that.
Its likely that they did want to do those things, but understood the costs associated with those activities and decided instead to attempt to build a stable life conducive to supporting a family.
When I was in my 20s and looking for a wife, I was very careful about my spending habits and was focused on saving and investing. Meanwhile my coworkers were always going into debt on new cars, expensive vacations and other useless consumer items.
Its no wonder that men who sacrificed and saved in order to be a responsible father are increasingly unwilling to give what they earned to globe-trotting strumpets who gave her best years to anonymous men in exotic locales.
Unless a young man is a rich heir, he his unlikely to be able to afford all the travel and “experiences” modern women want and still be able to responsibly provide for future children.
If you marry young and spend/save responsibly you can have children and then spend midlife travelling like what my parents and grandparents did.
I Art Laughing:
I am not a domineering person, so I am not looking for someone to control. I wouldn’t mind taking on a submissive role but I would hope to find someone who is my equal. For marriage, I want to bring affection, caring and loyalty. I like showing someone that I care for them, the odd thing is, I have met some men in the city that I currently reside, that being New Orleans, who prefer more outspoken, brash, independent and “feminist” minded women. I don’t identify with the feminist movement with the exception of one or two pet issues, and I just can’t be the aggressive woman who “challenges” them that they would want me to be. I’m more of a peacekeeper. I don’t expect marriage to be a dream though I do have a romantic mind as far as meeting someone who can connect with me goes.
Christine, in my opinion men that like women like that like them because they are also sexually available. They aren’t marrying them. I also suggest that you keep your brother in the loop, he may be an asset when it comes to sorting out the intentions of a man. He may also be able to help you network. There are a lot of messed up people out there, if God has a husband for you you need to be diligent to prepare and patient to wait. Understand that it is a humble and quiet woman who is serving God that will attract a Godly man’s attention.
Christine:
Most women today who are “outspoken, brash, independent” are feminist. Those tend to be code words for “bitchy” which is unattractive. But as IAL said, those women tend to be more sexually available (code word for “slutty”). Another thing to keep in mind is that you don’t have lots of time. You will be at least 33 when you marry. Expand your attraction filters so as to let in as many potential mates as possible. This will make it a bit easier. The fact that you look younger is a big plus. But having children might be a problem. Your older brother is likely to be a help, not a hindrance.
As far as what you bring to a marriage, I’d suggest:
1. keep your physical appearance as good and attractive as possible. Keep your weight down, your hair long and your makeup on.
2. Learn some domestic skills. Learn cooking, cleaning, caring for a house, and child care.
3. Decide if you want children. If you do, you have no time to waste.
4. Be nice, pleasant, and kind, with a cheerful, optimistic attitude.
5. Try to avoid profanity and vulgarity in your speech.
6. These traits are unattractive in women: sarcasm, caustic speech, vulgarity, profanity, pessimism, nagging, complaining, dominance
I would like to have a relationship that would eventually lead towards marriage. I am not sure how to go about dating. I’d like to avoid places where hook-ups and casual sexual encounters are encouraged
In theory, church. However you may find hypocrites, and in some churches the hypocrites outnumber the real Christians. And if you, yourself, are not religious, I don’t know how to help you, since devout religous types are commanded by Scripture to confine their matrimonial choices to those who share their faith.
Mild Asperger tendencies are not a barrier to romance. Just how far on the spectrum are you?
The lonely legacy of my Sex And The City lifestyle: Claudia Connell gives a painfully honest account of how she came to be living alone in middle-age
The money quote:
“….it’s an uncomfortable truth that the sort of high-flying alpha males we were all holding out for didn’t want women like us. All the successful men I know have married sweet, uncomplicated women who are happy to forfeit their careers to support their husbands.”
Move to California! So many single guys there, and by extension, single guys in church.
why should she get all the rewards of this institution after obviously pissing away the best years of her life travelling, career, finding herself and whatever else occurred in that decade. This is only a sample of n=2 that I know 29/30 years old respectively. They are under the impression that they can bag a husband when they feel like it. The trips to Oz, Bali, Las Vegas etc. only included backpacking nothing else (of course we believe you heh) not a surfer dude or roackbanddrummer to be heard of in either location. Good sanitisations of the sexual history as you know. Looking at the stats give it 7 years before she decides I’m just not haaapppppyyyyyyyyy and the kids and husband suffer, f**k that noise. How can any man risk marrying a woman who has travelled extensively all over the world with friends and think she can keep a non-slutty reputation intact, OH wait I’m a misogynist, knuckle dragger how dare I judge her behaviour when she was travellinnnnngggggggggggg.
Many manosphere lessons in this article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2263518/I-left-love-life-I-thought-I-better-Now-Im-childless-42.html
Anonymous:
I read the article. It’s sad, really. Nice looking woman. She could have had a decent life with her man, maybe not the best life; but still a decent one. Now she’s at best a cougar, good for maybe — MAYBE — an LTR. No one will take a flyer on her for marriage.
That was a whiny, self indulgent article. She felt her high school boyfriend wasn’t right for her at the time and dumped him and didn’t find anyone better. Now she’s complaining. If she’d found someone better this article would be all about how women shouldn’t settle. I dumped my high school boyfriend, married a man I met in college and have not a single regret. You win some you lose some.
Justinians comment said a lot:
“When I was in my 20s and looking for a wife, I was very careful about my spending habits and was focused on saving and investing. Meanwhile my coworkers were always going into debt on new cars, expensive vacations and other useless consumer items.”
That was my experience too. It’s taken two decades to afford the recreational stuff I wanted to do in my twenties. Women don’t get that. That want it all, now. Travel, cars, cosmetics, all on credit.
I think it was TFH who said women just don’t get cause and effect. That if you spend what you don’t have, someone eventually wants it back. With interest.
I find it annoying when, in hindsight, a woman figures it out. It’d be much better if they figured it out right away, when they could do something about it. It’s almost insulting in the end, when they contact you many years down the road, that they’re now willing to take what you have to offer now that they don’t have anything to offer in return. But it is what it is, and in the end those women don’t really matter. The only thing that matters is the woman who does want to give you the best she has to offer.
I am not sure I buy the ‘woe is me’ from the article linked by anonymous at 12.19 am on the 17th January. She is not bad looking and is only 42. Those look like crocodile tears to me, because had she really wanted marriage, then how come she had not managed that in her early twenties if not before – in some later message I will bemoan the fact that I am not a Nobel Prize-winning scientist or dot-com millionaire and expect much sympathy. I always look at the comments to The Mail articles especially the red-ticked which is how I came across the commenter going by the name of Hungry Horse from Horseville, who on the 17th January, points out that what men want and desire are looks and fertility. Naturally that has been red-ticked more than any other comment. Can we really be so far out of synch with the rest of the inter-web, for had I not known otherwise I might have assumed it is the sort of thing Deti might have written. Are women capable of anything other than sympathising with other women – or is it that back-handed type of sympathy of which Dalrock has sometimes written – where they gloat over their would-be rivals misfortune under the guise of sympathy?
“Are women capable of anything other than sympathising with other women – or is it that back-handed type of sympathy of which Dalrock has sometimes written – where they gloat over their would-be rivals misfortune under the guise of sympathy?”
The latter. Team woman only looks after their own when it is their personal best interest.
interesting and on point
http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/want-a-man-stop-being-a-b-tch/
When I was in my 20s and looking for a wife, I was very careful about my spending habits and was focused on saving and investing. Meanwhile my coworkers were always going into debt on new cars, expensive vacations and other useless consumer items
Ditto. AND…. the guys who had all the “stuff”, were assumed to be well-off, and got dates… til the girls found out that they were so poor they had to go dutch for dinner.
Whereas my guid frugal self, in jeans, boots, and a dusty pickup truck, had PLENTY of money in the bank and I could afford expensive dates… on the rare occasions some church chick would actually speak to me.
Singleness. How I hated it.
Classic! I just read both articles……it sounds like many of my girl friends in the U.S. in their late 20’s/early 30’s……. I wish I could feel sorry for these women……but I don’t. They weren’t a ‘catch’ when they were younger……and even less so now. Good luck ladies!
I’m a woman 28 years old, and I’ve been single for a year, after my 7-year boyfriend( I was with him from my 20-27), who promised he would marry me after I finished college( he said he wouldn’t marry a woman with NO degree, what about that guys????), broke up with me.
We use to fight a lot, because of his reluctancy in talking about marriage, children, etc..ALL our fights were because his behaviour was not compatible with someone who really has plans for a serious commitment…he was MY ONLY BOYFRIEND and the first and only man I met sexually.
Another detail: I had a condition that made me gain several pounds, so I went from being svelte, elegant, pretty face and 5’8…to round, pretty face and 5’8(although not obese), and he was allways tallking about that..
NOW, I’m a 28 YO spinster, back in the single market again…and as I am still finishing my university education, I have no time to meet new people, I barely have time to go out with my ( fewer) old friends that aren’t yet married…and is really hard to loose weight when needing to study very hard daily and with no much time to gym!
I spent my entire 20’s with the wrong guy and locked at home studying…what do you advise me to do to find a nice guy to whom I can give my devotion and be a good spouse?I’ve never been a feminist or anything like that, and I’m not looking for a Alfa,just a nice guy who really wants to get married and star a family!
Am I too old to have that kind of aspiration?
Carolina.
What is your priority? Is it having a family? Or is it about getting advanced degrees?
Don’t assume the two are compatible.
Be a virgin, look for a man who will marry, instead of giving it all away to a man who ‘promises’ he will marry if you’d just give him the sexy now though…
The Bible is quite straight forward about this, choose to ignore that at your own peril. The modern lifestyle of lots of sexy before marriage, plus many advanced degrees in how to shuffle paper and modern Independent woman TM (I don’t need no man!) is the following of Satan. You’ve been warned…
My sympathy for women who just will not follow the obvious is wearing rather low… like 6 feet under the ground low.
I Art Laughing ,
If I would have to choose between the 2, raising a family would be my priority.
But is that there are still men in my generation who are willing to sustain a woman for the rest of their lives so they can stay home taking care of children? Most portuguese man (I’m from Portugal) call that woman “lazy” and “self-serving” and say that they don’t want a woman like that…believe me!
carolina:
No, you’re not too old but time is running out. Yes, you spent too long with the wrong guy. I don’t know what to make of the guy saying he wouldn’t marry a woman who didn’t have a uni degree. I think that is odd. He was probably looking for an egalitarian marriage with you working and pooling expenses.
I am sorry to say it but i think that the real reason you aren’t married to him is because of your medical condition that caused you to gain weight. Even worse, 7 years is a long time to stay with a guy without marriage. A girl who’s looking to get married should not stay with a guy more than a few months. By the end of 3 to 6 months, you know if the guy is marriage worthy. End any relationship as soon as you know it is not going toward marriage. And you don’t need to stay with a guy for 2 years or more to figure out whether he’s a marriage candidate, or to get ready to get married.
At this point you should date with the specific purpose of finding a man who wants marriage. Do you live in the US? There are still men who want marriage, but they tend not to be as attractive as the most attractive men. If you and he are religious, consider covenant marriage.
Shes not in the U.S. so our advice wont work for her.
Carolina:
If you are in the Portuguese/western European SMP, that’s a place I know nothing about.
All I can advise you on is male nature. Men want beauty/looks (85% to 95%), youth (1 to 2 %) and pleasant, nice personality (3 to 10%). they aren’t generally attracted to things like how much money you make, your job, your salary, your personal possessions or your intelligence. They might want some of those things, but they don’t drive attraction.
I think you are all way too generous with Carolina.
She says she is twenty eight and that her boyfriend of seven years (from 20 to 27) promissed her that he would marry her when she had a Degree. She does not say that they were in any formal sense engaged to be married, so it is difficult to know exactly what that promise amounted to; further, although she is twenty-eight and has been at College since at least the age of Twenty, if not before, she still has no Degree – well I don’t know of any Degrees that take more than five years and most only take three. What is the betting that what he really said was that he did not want to put himself first and force her to abandon her career (for which she needs a degree) but that – the way things are – eventually given Carolina’s seeming inability to graduate and refusal, in the alternative, to get a job as she was, that he decided to cut his losses. Anyway, any non-marital relationship between young people that lasts seven years must be counted something of a rarity. He was not married and had a perfect right to do whatever he wanted (as Miss Manners always used to advise). The Victorian invention of the boyfriend (largely a benefit to women) also could work against them, as here, always assuming that Carolina’s version accurately reflects the facts.
Carolina also indicates that she and her boyfriend used to fight a lot, yet in the next breath says that he was reluctant to talk about marriage (like most guys) etc. Well, if he is reluctant to talk, there can hardly have been any fights unless perhaps she started them, so I deduce that Carolina is probably a button-pusher.
The truth, is, that Carolina, despite her protestations, showed no serious marital intent, and is now crying because she is not quite so slim and need to start all over again. Anyway, Carolina is only twenty-eight so she has plenty of time to marry and divorce and have a child or children as there are an excess of guys only too keen to man-up and marry, but who cannot find any woman who will even give them the time of day.
Carolina, sadly it sounds as if most Portuguese men as you describe them are feminists. My suspicion is that this cannot be as ubiquitous as you are describing. Here is my thought process on the degree. How much student debt do you have? How long and how much will you have to work to pay that debt off? How much will all of this interfere with you being a wife and a mother? How many years as a wife and a mother do you have left?
If you are attractive, submissive, are really enthusiastic about serving a husband I would want you to be at home so that I could have the best of you to myself. If you are not those things I might rather see you going to work so that I wouldn’t need to work so hard to support you. (From my perspective, the attractiveness may be the least important of the 3 I listed, but it’s still important to keep up, and to realize that you have a shelf life). I don’t know about Portugal and your marriage/dating dynamic, but I do know what I want as a man. I also know that I am not unique.
Are you interested in the right men?
I’ll also add that in the U.S., college campuses are a hotbed for feminist men and egalitarians. If you’re not interested in football players (or they aren’t interested in you) maybe it’s best to stay away from the pitch.
Greetings,
Dalrock, if you don’t mind I just wanted to share some links to this blog that some of you have probably already heard of, it’s called therulesrevisted.com.
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/08/femininity-authenticity-and_5.html
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2013/02/female-game-for-women-in-their-30s.html
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/12/female-game-for-girls-in-their-20s.html
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/10/you-can-control-how-attractive-you-are.html
fascinating discussion. As a man who “paid the price” after marrying a Strong Independent Woman (TM), but now wants to be married again, I can tell you that women clearly do not want to be in a traditional marriage. After my divorce, I found Dalrock’s blog, and took the red pill. I clearly see the mistakes I made (tried to cover up the alpha, act more beta, like all the “churchian” advice was.)
So, after taking the red pill, and letting some of my natural alpha come out…i find that there are virtually no women around who want a traditional marriage. Yes, I want to be with a woman who is a Christian, who will submit (some great definitions of Biblical submission above), who will remain attractive (yes, that’s important…read “His Needs, Her Needs”); who is willing to cook, clean, and basically be pleasant and participate in the marriage.
So what would this “poor, tied-to-the-kitchen” woman get in return? Fidelity, stability (I’m very successful in my business, well into six figures), someone who will go to church with her, be willing to have kids with her, and who will provide for her the rest of her life…..
The downside? Most women won’t look twice if you are losing your hair, or getting gray, or are past 50. The rest simply doesn’t matter to them. They only want the money, the lifestyle, and the “good dad” if, and only if, you have great looks. (And, by the way, I’m not obese or ugly, just not Brad Pitt).
FlyGuy,
As a woman I can say that everything that apparentely you try to offer to your ex-wive and she didn’t value, was everything that I tried my ex-boyfriend to offer me, and what he said to me was that he sees no value in a woman that stay in home with kids and that if I thought that it that what’s gonna happen, that I was fully mistaken, because he wanted someone that (listen to this guys…)could earn AT LEAST AS MUCH AS HE DOES!!I can’t tell you the horror of listening to this to someone who was your fianceé for 7 years, who was supposedly to became your future husband..
I’m about to became a Pharmacist( The best profession for a woman in the USA in 2012), I finished one very difficult degree that could make me gain a good money if I choose to dedicate to it.
So I feel like I have nothing to prove, because if in my situation, if I was willing to dedicate my life to my future children and husband, is not because I don’t like to work or am unfit to do so, but because MY FUTURE FAMILY LIFE will be more important!!!
I’ve had a good career (physician)…but, let me tell you, the thing I see from watching older peers finish up their careers…is that it’s your family that is most likely to be there for you…
Went on a date last night with a nice, attractive lady. But, in discussion, the look on her face when I was talking about a SAHM was amazing….it was as if I had said something utterly unmentionable.
So, where does one find women who are interested in being SAHMs? I’m faithful in my church…and they’re not there. There are a lot of Femi-nazi’s, though….who are looking for a man to be a “help-meet” to them…
>The thing I fail to understand is why men would seek marriage. I understand why women want marriage, but what benefits does it confer on men?
The only reason that I’d ever get married for, is to have a claim on my children. I want to do their raising and training. I’ve worked hard at learning and preparing to raise kids, hopefully someday I’ll get to put that into practice with my own children.
Marriage comes with a lot of liabilities for a man in today’s society, and I see no reason to engage in it except for that specific purpose. If I want companionship, I’ve got plenty of women (married or not) who’re willing to be ‘friends’ and talk to me/provide companionship. I’m not that top 1-2% – so the current culture has trained me very well to do without sex. Frankly, the hand is far cheaper and gives a ton less bullshit, I never have to deal with PMS/emotional outbursts/depression/etc and I get to roll right over and go to sleep.
Which means that there’s a very limited subset of women that I’d consider. Basically, read above. However, the guys are telling women that they need to kick him to the curb if he’s not ready to commit in 3-6mons – and that is an issue. I want to see the woman perform longer than that. Many women can keep up an act for 3 months, and some can do it for 6 months. But most don’t have the stamina and fortitude to fake their true selves for over a year (and if they do, they also have the where-with-all to fake it for a decade or three needed to raise the kid(s)).
No single moms. Sorry ladies, the only ones who have my sympathy are the widows. The rest of you made bad choices. And if you’re choosing me… well, that’s an insult. Also, mothers should be putting their children first (most of them will admit this) – if so, I’d just be a second fiddle… and any children I had with her would be competing with her first-borns. And if she’s not putting her children first, would I want her to be the mother of mine? I want someone who will put our child first – which means single, never bred. And also means someone who’s not given up a baby, or lost custody. Frankly, I want my kid(s) to inherit from the mother’s family (if there’s any money going down – not a necessary condition).
I’m not as adamant as the ‘no women over 30’ guy. But not too far off. 32-33 is topping it out. 35 starts the big decline in fertility, and with a 1yr requirement… and that’s assuming you can knock her up in the first year. Sometimes it takes years of trying.
And I really don’t want to be the dickhead who tries with an older woman, for a couple of years – puts in time on the relationship, maybe get really heart-entangled – and then have to break the news to her that it’s divorce time because she’s infertile, and that I need to go try again with someone younger. Number one that’s not good for my heart/soul, and number two that’s really cruel to do to someone you love. But, I’m not going to sacrifice my goals just because she was out doing other things when she was younger instead of getting wifed/bred up.
It’s been kinda fun as I’ve grown older to see the exes come sniffing around. And the chix from HS who wouldn’t give you the time of day back then. Pretty much, I’ve washed my hands of them – I like to tell them ‘I’m busy, maybe some other time’ – and all those other bullshit excuses they used on me back in the day. I hope they spend just as much time pining over me as I spent pining over them. And I’m certainly not going to give them any pointers in person (unlike I’m doing right now on the net) because they didn’t bother to tell me what I needed to do to up my game back then. IRL, I’m gonna feed them all that feminist sh*t – and just tell them that we’ve got no chemistry/whatever if they get the balls to ask me out – instead of pointing out their real problems.
I had to figure sh*t out on my own, and they can too. Life sucks, and then you die.
If I could go back in time, I’d tell my younger self to drop the GFs. They were only causing me to spend my money – I worked hard at saving my money, and investing for the future – if I’d quit trying to find someone to marry back then I’d’ve been a millionaire by now, and been rolling in the pussy and/or wifed up. Occasional sex from the GF when she was in the mood back in the day wasn’t worth the drama, and the missed life opportunities now that I’ve matured and reflected on it.
Young men: Make money. Save it/invest it. Hire lawyers and protect your stash/investments from being co-opted by women (you can spend it on ’em if you want when you’re older). If you follow those rules, you will never lack for pussy in your old age. Forget the romantic bullshit. Yeah, there are people who stayed married for 60-70-80 years who’re dying now… but they grew up in a different time, in a different culture. Get real, and look around.
An aside, one of my buddies has a pets rule: no more than 2 different types of pets (no menageries) and no more than 2 of any one type of animal. And of course, the no women who say ‘I’m mommy to two dogs’, etc. Women are substituting animals for family… if one who is, avoid them – they’ve made their choice. A real woman who wants intimacy will be looking for (and more serious in) a man (or, f*ck, another woman if she swings that way) if she’s not spending her love, care and attention on a veritable zoo.
Advice for women in their 30s? Good luck. I hope you’ve got your shit together by now. Most I’ve met do not. Most women are huge clusterf*cks once they get out of their teens (if they make it that far without getting knocked up/etc) – most are making bad choices. Choices that have life-long consequences. Not that they’re grown up enough/mature at 18 however…
It’s like looking for a damn unicorn 🙂
Of course once technology catches up, and gets us artificial wombs – I’ll be all set. You can buy quality eggs, plenty of strumpets will bend over for the doctor for 5 figs – and you’ll never have to deal with ‘mom’.
Wow, I come here for marriage advice (even though I am not yet 30, I am 26), and all I see is dozens upon dozens of anti-women comments. Sometimes I just wish there was no such thing as gender. I just hate how so many people seem to hate women, or want them to be more subhuman just to make certain men feel superior. Why not just accept that it is another person with different views on life? I don’t care about a man with money, hair, even a job. All I want is another human being to love and spend my life with, and hopefully have kids. Apparently, that’s just asking for too much!
I don’t understand why I have to change so much of myself. Do chores for him, pretend to be pleasant when I am actually miserable, etc. But women can NEVER expect such things from men? “Oh, you are just being crazy, holding out for ‘Mr. Perfect.'” There is no “Mr. Perfect,” but certainly there has to be someone better than all the misogynists out here.
Meanwhile, somewhere in an alternate reality..
Wow, I come here for marriage advice (even though I am not yet old, but still young), and all I see is dozens upon dozens of anti-men comments. Sometimes I just wish there was no such thing as gender. I just hate how so many women seem to hate men, or want them to be more subhuman just to make certain women feel superior. Why not just accept that it is another person with different views on life? I don’t care about a woman with youth, a slim figure, even a job. All I want is another human being to love and spend my life with, and hopefully have kids. Apparently, that’s just asking for too much!
I don’t understand why I have to change so much of myself. Do chores for her, go to a shitty job the rest of my life, pretend to listen to her bat shit crazy ramblings, etc. But men can NEVER expect such things from women? “Oh, you are just being crazy, holding out for ‘Mrs. Perfect.’” There is no “Mrs. Perfect,” but certainly there has to be someone better than all the misandrists out there.
The names that men adopt in the Manosphere and the names that women assume are often very different. The originality of male names, names like Anonymous Reader, for example, impress me with their wit, but the women (with honourable exceptions) seem devoid of any originality or distinctiveness. Why is it that they resort to such impertinence as ‘Just Asking’ or the equally dim ‘Not Telling’ – which is what you might expect from a thirteen year old shy of communication with adults. Are Just Asking and Not Telling perchance related, I wonder? I think we should be told.
I know that look, FlyGuy. Got it yesterday from a girl I’ve been seeing for 3 months. I already live her “ideal” life yet she’d rather make 32k a year then raise kids, be team Ton’s rear detachment commander and enjoy my success.
It’s beyond puzzling… or would be if I paid attention to what women say vs what they do
Women have truly enslaved themselves by becoming careerists and deserting the role of SAHM. No woman understands that, however, until she holds her first precious little one- by then if she has a 6 figure salary it is all but too late. Society (and our mothers) told us to get a good job because in the end we couldn’t count on anyone but ourselves. But in the end if you become dependent on a second income for a home or a lifestyle- its very difficult to rid yourself of. Its not just the women who become enslaved to the “high” lifestyle. Its the couple together- and together they lose the wonderful family dynamic- and sometimes they lose the family altogether in a divorce. Women of my generation need to wise up. It will take men like you all (Dal and Deti and the rest). Within our current societal framework I believe it is too late. This comment is just all doom and gloom huh!?! Sad but true. May God help us.
Dear “Not Telling”:
You go, girlfriend! Tell those hateful misogynists! They don’t know you! You deserve nothing less than a 6ft5in bodybuilder who has at least 10M dollars in the bank, owns his own large corporation, and looks like Brad Pitt. He is out there, waiting to make you his princess. Keep looking and don’t ever settle for anything less!
Regards, Boxer
all I see is dozens upon dozens of anti-women comments. .. I just hate how so many people seem to hate women,
None of these guys started out hating women. They all started out loving women, and got very, very badly burned. Some were true, good hearted “niceguys, who got rejected in favor of badboys year after year, decade after decade. Others were cheated on. Still others lost children, homes, fortunes, and even freedom due to the savage anti-male injustices of divorce court.
And some are men who are now happily married but, in their past, fell into one or more of those categories, and are willing to share non-sugar-coated wisdom borne of experience, to other men in order to spare them…. and, to women who have ears to hear what’s really going on.
I think one clarification is important to point out to the occasional woman that stumbles in here and declares female victimhood, and the clarification is this: If someone points out a failing that they’ve repeatedly witnessed in the members of the fairer sex, it’s not anti-anything. It’s passing on one’s experiences. Yes, the opposite is just as true, but only if we’re talking about what a woman has actually witnessed men repeatedly doing, hamster-inspired justification for a woman’s failings don’t count (For example: “I didn’t do anything wrong, because he started it!”).
To Carolina: As someone else mentioned, your degree not being finished is going to be a concern in it’s own right. I took a while to finish junior college and then a five-year architecture degree, but I was done at 26. I picked something and pursued it. My concern when dating women at the younger end of my age range is that they haven’t picked something to pursue. Somewhere around 24-27 most women have decided what they want to make of their life. If they haven’t decided they’re a 50/50 time bomb, after months of affection and imaginations about the future, the man can find himself empty handed and out whatever time and money were spent, when the woman decides that what she really wants is to live as a man rather than as a woman. Such a woman might get married and even have children, but long term, it’s not going to provide for a quality or long lasting marriage. A man married to a masculinised women can only look forward to constant competition and constant contention. Sure the other half of the 50/50 means living happily ever after, or at least as happy as previous generations of married couples, but why go for 50/50 with a woman who hasn’t decided? There are 100% bets out there, and any man with sense or experience will know that’s the only bet to make.
You shouldn’t actually be asked to be an equal bread-winner unless of course you don’t want to contribute anything else of value in a relationship. I have friends with stay at home wifes, that can’t be bothered to cook a meal, don’t pick up after themselves, or do anything really. I also have friends that as wives work a day job, and come home and take care of the home too. What’s important to me, and I imagine most men, when it comes to whether a woman has or has had a job, is whether she has the ability to appreciate the work that their husbands are doing. A husband will work hard for his wife, but only if his wife doesn’t take his efforts for granted. Grasciousness and gratitude are all that husband should ask of his wife when it comes to work in my opinion.
Wow. I am a little shocked by the harsh comments about women. Are they honestly deserved? Maybe am just ignorant, but again, I’d rather keep it that way. It is not fair to lump men or women in a cluster and mark them with one big negative sign.
See, am a woman, Never been married, have no children and 34 soon to be 35. I finished high school at 17, got a job and finished my first degree in chemistry. Also helped put a roof over my grandmother and buy my mother a place to live. As hard as she worked, she could never afford her own place. I lost the job (developed seizures) after 4 years and moved to a new country for better opportunities.
In my new country, I started from scratch, worked menial jobs attending classes, paid tuition for 3 orphans I just could not ignore, sent my half brother through teaching college and are finally finishing my a healthcare graduate degree (doctor of pharmacy)
Have I been loved, yes. We planned to move to the new country but his paperwork did not go through. I tried my best to help him out and when everything failed, I believed it was okay because he ended up being the care-taker of his parents who died of cancer 5 years ago. It was a beautiful 6 year relationship and we remain friends.
Now I feel like am ready to love again. There was a lot to worry about I did not think it wise to rope in someone else. Which part of this is bitterness, slutting, or “reason am alone in my 30’s”
I am not an angel, but I know that am a good person. And I believe I will find the right man, even at 38 , and I don’t think his view of single women will be this negative. I don’t recall cheating on anyone or even not having a goal. Yes, there are women like this, but please, be kind to each other. none of them were born like that.
At times I believe that the the negative we see in men/women has been partly created by men/women. When we sit alone in our beautiful beds and are honest to ourselves, we find that we all all desire and want to belong, be loved and be trusted. scarred we may be, but that need is there, defines us as human beings. Have faith in love and r-ships at whatever age.
Good luck my friends.
I have to wonder if this drive-by posts are auto-generated. You know, we could probably write an auto-generation script for them. They’re pretty much all the same.
It always starts with some anti-male shaming. Then it’s all about “her needs” and how life was hard. Then it’s how we need to “all get along”.
I mock people that stupid in real life, to their face. I need to remember to do it more.
Shaming, in my experience, discredits whatever case is made afterwards. A good argument stands on it’s own, it doesn’t require a submissive audience. Shaming is an attempt to create a submissive audience, because the advocate doesn’t have faith in the argument otherwise being successful.
@They Call Me Tom:
I probably shouldn’t need to put it out to you, but you do get exactly where that leads you to, logically, right?
Yeah, once people realize that, it’s a matter of: Welcome to the Red Pill, yes, we know its painful to realize that most people are stupid.
Mulan: “Lookit me” solipsism + NAWALT!!!
I recently analysed the thread ‘Why men date younger women’. This thread is similar and has produced a similar response, and thus I have also analysed it:
It begins on 11th April 2011 with comments from the usual suspects, goes quiet and then resurrects itself with a comment from ciji32 in April 2012
Her comment is followed by comments form the following females:
KMS
jojo
LIA (2 comments in thumping Block Capitals)
JLS
Pillish Redhead
Jenn (six comments)
nesm-TR
Jojo (again – four comments)
Jean
Teebm
Christine (two comments)
T
Caroline (three comments)
Nottelling
anonymous
and now, Mulan
I exclude, at her own request, perspective – and her thirty one comments.
Once again Dalrock seems to have found the Achilles Heal.
Looking Glass: “I probably shouldn’t need to put it out to you, but you do get exactly where that leads you to, logically, right?”
That Mulan doesn’t have a credible argument to make? It did look a little cut and pasted, rather than an expression of an actual thought process.
Looking Glass: “Yeah, once people realize that, it’s a matter of: Welcome to the Red Pill, yes, we know its painful to realize that most people are stupid.”
You have to figure that if a bad method of argument persists, there’s a good chance that the bad method has been successful. For it to be successful, yes, it suggests a good number of people are, as you put it, stupid.
Perhaps I am just an Alpha cad, but – and this seems the best thread to set this out – thinking about myself, in my thirties I never formed any conscious decision to marry, as an objective, and always assumed (as was the case) that the women I dated had no intention of marrying either, but just to show how difficult it must be for women in their thirties to marry, I set out below (temporary daliances excluded) the ages of the main girlfriends I had – an average of one a year – for the ages 31, 32, 33, 34, 35.
The girls were at the time we started dating respectively:
26, 27, 23, 21, and 26.
I would not have even considered dating a woman aged over thirty, but as you see their average ages began to decline rather than increase.
Interesting Opus. Never mind the physical youth, young women are charming when stood next to not-as-young women, because for the most part they aren’t either jaded or damaged, the adjective I use for them is ‘sunny’.
I’ve dated a couple women over thirty in my early thirties, but truth is (despite the feminist myth) they didn’t have anything especially unique to offer intellectually or romantically compared to a younger woman, so I could see how, in the end, a man will probably date younger as the years go on.
To return to the title of this post, I think the best thing a woman in her early thirties can do to find herself a husband is to watch younger women and try to emulate their general warmth, friendliness, and energy. Just as much as physical beauty, it’s their state of being that makes them attractive.
Advice to a 30-something looking to marry? Quit! Unless…
She spent too long time despising men and now she is tired of the dating game because she has been beaten by younger girls and uninterested/uninteresting men. The best is over, babe!
Just in case you want to marry a bankrupt divorced dad, a lonely widower or one of the betas you used to ignore, try to look younger, to sound humble and delicate (I do not believe western women are really that – so keep pretending) and take the challenge of being a little more selfless than the average western women. And good luck! You are going to need a lot of it!
You are idiots. You think that women after age thirty are past their expiration date…while men have all the time in the world. It’s such a double standard! And it’s sexist bullshit. And its also not everyone’s reality. Women don’t have to settle!! Anyone can marry whoever they want at whatever age works for them. Woman’s value is not all tied up in her ability to be a reproductive vessel…The way you talk about women, you’d think that the lot of us are disposable–to be used and cast aside like a used condom wrapper! Men like you are the reason there is a 50% divorce rate. Women have changed…but men like you have not. We are not sex objects. We are human beings….with dreams and passions. Your world veiw makes women feel old at twenty one, and so many young girls buy into it! And I have news for you…My generation IS marrying later…and most men my age are not sexist pigs like you. You shame women for getting older, make us feel like we’re worthless if were over thirty and unmarried…if you had it your way every woman over thirty would go crawl under a rock. People as shallow as you don’t deserve to be in any relationship.
[D: Women over thirty can be very beautiful.]
“It’s such a double standard!”
No, the power that makes these loose young women think they are far above most men and can “settle later” is the very power they lose forever past a certain date. If they wanted marriage they would have taken it when younger. Then men they didn’t want then should have the sense to realize they aren’t worth it now.
That is to say, the double standard is in the minds of women. One standard of man to be used by when she is young, another standard of man to use when she is about to dry up.
My, My My what a clever and witty response.
It’s almost cute the way she thinks she has girl power and can do things, like marry whoever she wants
It still bears repeating that women over 30 can be very beautiful. They are, when they reserve their beauty and their best years for one man, and help him achieve his goals while he helps her.
But a woman over 30 can still meet a good man. She should:
1. Do all she can to improve her physical appearance.
2. Lower her standards.
3. Recalibrate attraction triggers by changing the venues where she meets and talks to men.
4. Shift attention from men in general to marriageable men.
5. Realize that the men she used to have sex with will not marry her.
@kj: If there’s any shaming involved, it isn’t for your getting older, but for your wasting your best opportunities. Everyone should regret wasting their opportunities, especially those who claim not to have any regrets, as seems to be the case with many thirty-something women when they talk about their twenty-somethings.
As Dalrock noted, women over thirty can be beautiful. I’d say over forty too. I’ve seen it, but truth is, I’ve only seen it on women who’ve avoided getting jaded who have, the warmth, friendliness and energy that most twenty-something women have without putting any effort into it that I described in my post. Bitter women start looking old before they even get to thirty, because bitterness affects one’s outsides just as much as it affects one’s insides.
That, I would say, was the on-line version of stamping ones feet.
…and I would add that a woman who marries in her twenties, will always look that way to her husband in some sense. Likewise with a woman who marries in her thirties and forties. Sure a wife could work really hard and eventually change her husband’s impression of her, but a wife that isn’t trying to be her husband’s enemy will always be seen in the same light as when he first met her.
Younger women are attractive, and will be more attractive longer than older women. That makes them more desirable as mates. If the kitten didn’t want me, I don’t want the cat.
Let me elucidate in case someone doesn’t understand that “double standard” is a almost always a projection:
When men reject women their own age for marriage in their 30s, how is this different than young women rejecting their marriage minded peers in their late teens and 20s? Young women believe they can do better than their male peers, and men in their 30s know they can do better than their female peers. The difference, is that a man is still capable of giving a woman many years of marriage and children and support in his 30s, whereas a woman is incapable of giving a man anything like the lionshare of her youth, beauty, and fertility.
Yes, these women are attracted to cads and older men and then complain about “double standards” when decent men their own age don’t want them. What they don’t want, is to have to do anything for someone else. They don’t want Christian marriage and family. They want to feel the maximum pleasure and pride when they are young, then they want a man-servant to give them a child and be financially responsible for the child, and to care for any bastards they’ve had on the way there.
Yeah, maybe it sounds like a broken record to point these things out. These girls say they don’t want to settle, but nothing is more apparent than that they don’t believe in love and marriage. That is to say, the idea of giving someone else the best of themselves, they don’t believe in that at all. They want to label old and used as fresh and new. And then blame men for a “double standard” for not wanting it!
Are we sure there isn’t an auto-generation script? I swear I’ve seen this exact screed two or three times before.
kj ‘s best line: “Anyone can marry whoever they want at whatever age works for them”. Ponder on these words oh ye mighty and despair! (to adapt Shelley)
@ JS “Yes, these women are attracted to cads and older men and then complain about “double standards” when decent men their own age don’t want them.”
Don’t most in the manosphere generally advise women to date older men?? Or by “older men” did you mean an age gap of 10+ years?
Women in their 30s think they should marry men practically the same age as themselves. However, when they have a chance to marry their peers, to give men their age their best years, they typically go with cads or older men. The point is not that there’s anything wrong with going with older men. The point is: many of these women are the very ones who went with older men as girls who now insist the men their age marry them! They are the ones with the double standard. They want men to commit to them when men are in some respects at their peak, and they are close to the wall. Does a woman desperate in her thirties wanting to have a wedding and a kid really believe in love and marriage? If they didn’t want to give themselves to a man when they were at their best, I don’t think they really believe in giving themselves in their 30s. It’s pretty clear they believe in a man-servant who pushes the stroller.
Oh now I get what you meant, thanks for clarifying. I think I can see why you and many of the men who comment on here are frustrated. However, I do know of many women in their 30’s and beyond who actually prefer older men now, but did not necessarily so when they were in their 20’s. I know that when I was in my early-mid 20’s, I never really had much interest in anyone more than a couple years older, but as I entered my late 20’s (29 now), an age difference of 10 plus years does not seem significant at all.
To answer your question. “Does a woman desperate in her thirties wanting to have a wedding and a kid really believe in love and marriage? If they didn’t want to give themselves to a man when they were at their best, I don’t think they really believe in giving themselves in their 30s. It’s pretty clear they believe in a man-servant who pushes the stroller.”
I think that absolutely there are women in their 30s who believe in love and marriage. They might have wanted to give themselves when they were “at their best,” but they may actually have legitimate reasons for why they did not. Not every single 30 something woman “rode the carousel” or put off marriage because she was career obsessed. There’s single women who were approached when they were younger by good, marriageable men but perhaps lacked the confidence needed to be with such a man. A lot of men on her seem to voice frustration about how women repeatedly tell them they’re great guys and attractive, etc, yet still are (or have been) rejected by women they’re interested in. I’ve know of young attractive women who’ve been approached by men they actually like and are attracted to, but have an internal dialogue that goes kind of something like, “what does he see in me?” or “what if he leaves me for a prettier girl”? Etc, etc.So, not all women are delusional about who they think they’re capable of attracting. Believe it or not, some just do NOT feel WORTHY of some of the men they’re approached by. Some don’t learn to possess this self-confidence and worthiness until they’re in their late 20s-early 30s, but by then a lot of these women are just dismissed as being “worthless” “dried-up” or have “hit the wall.”
That is an interesting but I regret to say, at least to me, unpersuasive post by perspective. Of course no woman necessarily fits, exactly, the model propounded here in the Androsphere, and thus it may be that there are women in their thirties keen to marry, and who have not been riding the Carousel in their twenties; and it may also be the case that there are women so unsure of themselves that they cannot see ‘what he sees in me’ or wonder whether he will leave ‘for a prettier girl’ – I have met women like that, and their chronic insecurity is such that they are impossible to date – indeed I was temporarily romantically linked to one such who shortly thereafter relaunched herself as a singer (plus guitar) and managed to have an article and posed-photo thereof on page 7 of The Daily Mirror (they love a pretty young face and trim figure!) – but I am afraid the career was stillborn, doubtless her insecurity was not a help. If a woman is in her mid-thrities and is not a former Carousel rider, then one has to suppose that she has been celibate for twenty years or so, yet that seems unlikely; equally the chronically insecure tend to have ‘a screw loose’, like my erstwhile would-be lover, and it is unlikely to become tightened sufficiently by her mid-thirties. Single women in their mid-thirties tend to fall into one of two categories;either the carousel-rider or the weird and bad-tempered, but I fear that the normal but virginal are as rare as the Arabian Phoenix (a bird much spoken of but little seen). They should also not be confused with serial Monogamists.
@Perspective:
In my view, a woman does not need to ratchet up her confidence or her self esteem to be with a high value man. What she needs to do is (1) do all she can to improve her physical appearance; then (2) find men of good character that she can be attracted to and is comfortable submitting to. The “good character” part is key.
If she wants to be “worthy”, she needs to start by being pretty and nice and pleasant to be around. Then she needs to refuse to sleep with players and cads.
She doesn’t need to be confident. She needs to be pretty, nice, and discerning.
Opus: “…and it may also be the case that there are women so unsure of themselves that they cannot see ‘what he sees in me’ or wonder whether he will leave ‘for a prettier girl’ – I have met women like that, and their chronic insecurity is such that they are impossible to date – indeed I was temporarily romantically linked to one such”
I had that experience, once. One of the little red pill moments in my life. She was a decent-enough looking woman, and had a charming enough personality, that she probably would’ve been enough to make me happy. But because she wasn’t a 9 or a 10, she could not believe herself to be loveable, and soon it wasn’t just that she didn’t believe she was loved, but that there must be more sinister motivations involved with anyone who ‘pretended’ to love her. Plain janes can be just as unpleasant as the highest maintenance beauty queen in the end.
Two things I’d probably suggest to women over 30 looking to marry is that they make sure there is attraction from the outset, and that they work at the relationship between the two of them.
I’ve talked in passing with a couple of women in their mid 40s, both of whom I used to know from college. I dated one of them for a year back in college.
One of them spent her 20s riding the carousel. She met her husband through online dating at 29 and married him at 32. She’s now 42. They have no children. She is hopelessly unattracted to him because of his uber-beta tendencies, refusal to lead, and chronic depression. She is dissatisfied and unhappy in her marriage. Yet she’s never going to divorce her husband because deep down she knows she has no other options.
The other met her husband when she was 31 and in graduate school. He is 7 years her senior. They have two young school age sons. She is getting an “I’m not haaapy” divorce for the usual reasons: they “don’t have anything in common anymore” and ILYBINILWY.
Failure to marry for love and attraction, and neglect of the relationship, can be misery inducing at best, and fatal to the marriage at worst.
Dalrock- Have you ever thought of writing in regards to opposite experience that men in their early and later twenties sometimes run into? Maybe something like ‘Advice to a twenty-something, unemployed, non-trust fund man looking to marry’? Would even one ‘feminist’ show up and bemoan the suggestion that a man without sufficient ability to be able to provide for a family should still be loved and married anyways?
TCMT:
Twenty-something, unemployed non-trust fund men should go to:
dannyfrom504.wordpress.com
Feminist think no man should be loved. Which does reflect the reality that woman do not love
I found this article, and most of the comments extremely offensive … people are not objects, or money, or things.
Carolina, I would say just put yourself in different situations, and be open to meeting new guys. Maybe make the first move. Be yourself, try to be confident, follow your heart, don’t be weird, treat him like a PERSON and it will just happen.
People are objects and things… and they are other things as well. To say that people aren’t objects or things is to say they don’t exist… which is more offensive than anything said in these comments I think.
I like to say: If your spouse was horribly, permanently maimed or had sudden-onset nasty mental illness the day after marriage, would you stick by him/her? If not, think real hard about tying the knot.
Don’t kid yourself: if you aren’t ready to handle these type of events, then you aren’t really devoted to your partner, no matter nice and warm and cuddly it feels to fantasize that you are, You are devoted to what YOU want, what YOU hope to get out of your partner. You are not devoted to your partner.
This applies also to the aging process. One of you may well — probably will — go down the tubes quicker and more dramatically than the other. Are you willing to be the one to settle for an inferior match for many, many years? If not, don’t get married.
The takeaway from all of this is that when evaluating a potential partner, look for bedrock steadfastness and a hard-wired, DNA-deep aversion to abandoning ship. Look at the “culture” (i.e., the behaviors) of the extended family. Do they have a matter-of-fact beyond-question ethic of sticking together for keeps? I’ve seen families like that. One of the members cheated on his spouse, and the extended family performed an intervention and got the couple back together. They were simply not going to stand for that sneaky infidelity nonsense. If the couple had problems, the family’s attitude was to solve them — or, if absolutely unavoidable. get a proper divorce in the clear light of day. If you do not see that level of ingrained, inculcated, instilled inclination to stick it out and handle marriage honorably – think VERY hard about tying the knot with a prospective partner.;
You are looking for someone who would no more stray from you than they would hit you in the face with a 2×4 while you are napping. You want someone who views cheating as an unthinkable, grave act of domestic violence, not as a lifestyle option.
If your prospective partner is overly obsessing about whether you are a good fit, be very careful. You risk being out the door the minute things go off-key for any length of time. Marriage is at least as much about making the best of adversity and emerging dissimilarities as it is about having a good fit. Do not kid yourself.
I find women’s self entitlement, legalised misandry and divorce rape extremely offensive … men are people, not objects, or things to be consumed at will by the feminine imperative, financially milked and tossed aside.
whowanderarelost says:
April 7, 2013 at 6:14 am
“I found this article, and most of the comments extremely offensive”
FYI, that is not a rebuttal. It’s not even important.
Truth is often inconvenient, even unpleasant. But, most importantly, it is commonly USEFUL (when accepted and acted upon).
Dating advice from a woman:
“treat him like a PERSON…”
Instead of treating him a utility, a walking wallet, a means to an end for the contemporary feminist womans wedding fantasy?
Priceless.
@Perspective
“I think that absolutely there are women in their 30s who believe in love and marriage. They might have wanted to give themselves when they were “at their best,” but they may actually have legitimate reasons for why they did not. Not every single 30 something woman “rode the carousel” or put off marriage because she was career obsessed. There’s single women who were approached when they were younger by good, marriageable men but perhaps lacked the confidence needed to be with such a man. A lot of men on her seem to voice frustration about how women repeatedly tell them they’re great guys and attractive, etc, yet still are (or have been) rejected by women they’re interested in. I’ve know of young attractive women who’ve been approached by men they actually like and are attracted to, but have an internal dialogue that goes kind of something like, “what does he see in me?” or “what if he leaves me for a prettier girl”? Etc, etc.So, not all women are delusional about who they think they’re capable of attracting. Believe it or not, some just do NOT feel WORTHY of some of the men they’re approached by. Some don’t learn to possess this self-confidence and worthiness until they’re in their late 20s-early 30s, but by then a lot of these women are just dismissed as being “worthless” “dried-up” or have “hit the wall.””
Why do you think “this self-confidence and worthiness” is attractive to guys?
What are some of these “legitimate reasons”?
I like to mock others by “putting quotes” on their words. It’s fun. LOL.
“Be yourself, try to be confident”
The statement of lazy women …
Who Cant be bothered to figure out what men want .. women are so freaking arrogant, they think by just being women they can bag any man … be yourself, dont give a crap about the man
Women are so arrogant & feminist, they think being themselves is the best they can give a man …
Try to be confident? Women never cease to give other women a pussy pass … women dont know how to be confident?
In an age of Oprah empowerment & feminist affirmative bullshit & their vaginocracy …
The problem with women is they have TOO much confidence
Seriously you women still live in the 50’s … we live in an age of masculinised women & hyper-sexuality
An age of women who’ve passed the stages of arrogance & confidence into self delusions of worshipping their vagina’s …
Seriously IF you want a man, honour them, & find out what sort of woman men want …
BE that woman …
Your delusions of arrogance & the selfishness of being yourself, will keep you barren & childless …
“unemployed, non-trust fund man looking to marry’? ”
”
The only advice these guys need is find a job … lol
Anyman can have a trust fund … its easy …
Exp-pat & shack up with as many women as you can, have 10 or 20 kids … let the kids pay for your retirement … ta da … instant trust fund … good times!!
The mexicans & all over asia, do it all the time …
IF your still unemployed … find yourself a shotgun … thats how long the marriage’ll last … lol
Unemployed Walking wallets arent worthy of the skank like, slutty princess of today …
“‘what he sees in me’ or wonder whether he will leave ‘for a prettier girl’ ”
Wrong … what you guys think you see as insecurity …
Is in fact plausible deniability, most women get so used to having their bitch shields up at warp factor 10, thats all they know
Women get so used to playing hard to get, & using plausible deniability to convince themselves of their pure, virginal & chaste for that special alpha cock … they spend life times playing the damsel in distress …
Plausible deniability is the bread & butter of women game …
“Your delusions of arrogance & the selfishness of being yourself, will keep you barren & childless …”
Pure gold. This is exactly the kind of wisdom older women used to offer to the younger generations. Too bad that system is mostly dead now.
“I hope my thoughts on this are at least somewhat helpful. The last thing I will share is even though it is more difficult in your 30s it doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. My wife and I met a couple on a cruise a few years back who were newlyweds. The wife was in her early to mid 30s and the husband was in his mid 20s.”
Marrying older women is on the upswing. One of my closest buddies married a terrific single mom and they also had a child together when he was late 20s and she mid 30s. He bonded very closely with her young son and provides a great role model and father figure for him. Her daughter is a teenager so that dynamic is a bit different but they also get along well. They also have a 1 year old baby together and everyone;s life revolves around that baby.
When we were in our mid 20s he once remarked that women our age were not mature enough to marry and have kids with. One of the things that attracted him to his now wife was her demonstrable example of mother worthiness. He saw how she was with her kids and concluded she was a great mom, and she is. It didn’t hurt that she earns more than he does as well, though he never mentioned that.
” Also, a number of commenters to this site have mentioned finding and marrying the love of their lives in their 30s or later.”
In my circles people generally don’t marry until at least 30.
“This of course is also borne out in the census stats. A significant number of women marry in their 30s and (to a lesser degree) in their 40s and beyond.”
Yep, most of my female peers are marrying in early 30s. And these are not hardcore careerist women either.
“When we were in our mid 20s he once remarked that women our age were not mature enough to marry and have kids with. One of the things that attracted him to his now wife was her demonstrable example of mother worthiness. He saw how she was with her kids and concluded she was a great mom, and she is. It didn’t hurt that she earns more than he does as well, though he never mentioned that…”
Funny.
Here we see the only possible reason to ever consider marrying an older, single mommie. To divorce her later, claim the child of the union and child support payments off her, since shes working and earning more.
Still a high risk strategy, though.
No doubt about it; what man would not want a woman older than himself and with a failed marriage and or illegitimate children behind her, and for him to dove right into the role of surrogate Father and Provider. Consider the advantages: the woman is not silly and flighty but serious about combining Motherhood with her necessary Career. I now realise where I have been going wrong for so long, rejecting such woman as Pump and Dump playthings when all along they were preferred candidates for marriage. Yes; a man who has options ought always to reject younger women as inexperienced and in favour of the more mature. I’ll make a note of this somewhere at the back of last year’s diary.
A story about “good church girls” (gcgs).
Some years ago, the redoubtable boundless website published a work by danielle crittenden called the cost of delaying marriage.
Gcgs protested bitterly. They had worked long and hard to become childless spinsters. How dare someone suggest they missed out! Here are their protests about being single in the late twenties and thirties:
1. Jesus is enough
2. Its not my fault
3. Singles have more fun
4. Babies are too much work
5. Men are jerks
To its credit, boundless writers endorsed early marriage, but failed badly in omitting the obvious: women themselves are responsible through their hypergamic, status seeking, marriage avoiding behaviours in their twenties.
The christian young man in his twenties is blamed for the woman as gatekeeper model where they reject him, yet he is then told to man up and marry the sluts in his thirties, when he is now good enough for them.(until the woman divorces him ‘cos she’s unhaaappy)…
The takeaway for gcgs is this: women themselves are largely to blame for prolonged singleness, after a decade or more of having fun and finding themselves. But boundless will never admit this. To do so would damage the feminine imperative, where men must lead, and woman can do whatever they want.
Here is the original article and the boundless response to the many criticisms from gcgs:
http://www.boundless.org/relationships/2005/the-cost-of-delaying-marriage
http://www.boundless.org/relationships/2005/defending-the-cost-of-delaying-marriage
“Here we see the only possible reason to ever consider marrying an older, single mommie. To divorce her later, claim the child of the union and child support payments off her, since shes working and earning more.”
That’s not why he married her. He also works as a mechanic, handy man, massage therapist and martial arts teacher. She earns more but is not a mainstream careerist type so she doesn’t make a lot of money either in her small privately owned business. And now that she has an infant she’s had to scale even further back on her small pool of clientele.
“No doubt about it; what man would not want a woman older than himself and with a failed marriage and or illegitimate children behind her”
No illegitmate children. The divorce was not her fault. I know her ex-husband.
She’s a good, family oriented woman and that’s why my buddy married her. They are very happy and in love.
” I now realise where I have been going wrong for so long, rejecting such woman as Pump and Dump playthings when all along they were preferred candidates for marriage.”
I would suggest for your own mental, physical and spiritual well being that you do not pump and dump humans and use them as mere “things”.
“Yes; a man who has options ought always to reject younger women as inexperienced and in favour of the more mature. I’ll make a note of this somewhere at the back of last year’s diary.”
It has nothing to do with age really, but with character, values, maturity and compatibility. I’m sure there are mid-20s women of solid character, values and maturity, but my buddy was not meeting compatible ones who shared his specific values at the time. He found all of that in his now wife and that is why he married her.
So not all divorcees are like that. Got it.
“So not all divorcees are like that.”
Like what?
I am grateful to Sexual Marxist for the shaming; for yes I have to confess I do indeed see women as merely despositories for sperm (and the more Rapey it feels the better, obviously – as I am not the possesive type). I am grateful that anyone cares as Sexual Marxist obviously does about both my spiritual (whatever that is) and Physical well-being. Sexual Marxist clearly sees that I too have my needs and desires and that being confident in my sexuality such that I own my body and no one has the right to tell me how I should live my life. It is because I value women higher than even Manboobs Futrelle that I never even consider that it would be appropraite to give a woman my love and man up (for that would be unfair on all the other women) and marry a woman old enough to be my mother. It is because I do indeed care for women that I do not think it appropriate for someone such as myself to consider any form of relationship with a woman but merely attend to the satisfying of their needs.
A lot of older women have a lot to give and thus it is only fair that I allow all those younger and braver than me to risk their shirt. I will attend to the business of consoling the under thirties for their loss.
By the way is the buddy that Sexual Marxist refers to a Fuck Buddy? I think we should be told.
Jesus flippin’ Christ Opus. I shared an anecdote about my buddy’s personal experience. No need to extrapolate that into a universal diktat for man. Marry whoever the hell you want, and who will have you.
Dear An Observer:
Here we see the only possible reason to ever consider marrying an older, single mommie. To divorce her later, claim the child of the union and child support payments off her, since shes working and earning more.
Where I live, a man getting a judge to see him as the primary caregiver is about as common as a man getting struck by lightning. What is more likely is going to court and being paraded around as a total loser who doesn’t make enough money, and then having some dyke bitch judge impute “the income this loser should be earning” as a basis for the generous child support and maintenance payments. Such a man often gets a dressing down in court for his parasitism and his inability to be the breadwinner, but almost never gets to keep his kids.
It’s a rigged game, at least where I live.
Regards, Boxer
” The divorce was not her fault. I know her ex-husband… ”
So the virtuous woman of solid characer was deceived, tricked into marrying a man of dubious repute, a wife beater and substance abuser. She’s a victim of circumstance, and her ex somehow escaped the filter of her intuition.
” It’s a rigged game, at least where I live.”
Another way of describing high risk.
Although i’m sure there are plenty of preachers that would disagree, and encourage men to man up.
“So the virtuous woman of solid characer was deceived, tricked into marrying a man of dubious repute, a wife beater and substance abuser.”
Not at all. She married young. When she was pregnant with their second child she had found out that he was cheating on her. There were no signs of cheating before this and she had not even suspected him.
“She’s a victim of circumstance”
You could say that.
“and her ex somehow escaped the filter of her intuition.”
Nothing to do with intuition. He had no prior history of cheating that she knew of.
Satisfied now?
Based on the details supplied, no.
Extramarital sex is a symptom of other issues. None of which are explained here.
I don’t know more details than that. I know the ex-husband but he hasn’t opened up to me about the situation saying, “I had a good woman and I screwed up”. His ex-wife is now happily remarried with a third child while he is dating crazy with a capital C.
“Extramarital sex is a symptom of other issues.”
Not always. Sometimes men just want variety. Remember, she was heavily pregnant when he cheated.
So, all we really know is that he got some action outside the marriage bed.
Its disappointing to see any marriage fail. But there are women out there that wait years, wishing hubs would cheat, so they can divorce him with a clear conscience.
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/why-so-many-wives-wish-their-husbands-would-cheat/
Sexual Marxist… She who must be obeyed. Given the freedom to marry, who I want, or whoever will have me (ouch!) I think I’ll pass.
Look people, I shared an anecdote. It was not intended for universal application. One man cheated on his wife for whatever reason while she was pregnant with his second child. Several years later she remarried and has a new baby and the ex-husband upon seeing how happy and settled they are, expressed open regret to me that he cheated and deceived what he called a “good woman”.
It happens. I don’t know how often and I don’t care. This was just my one teeny tiny itsy bitsy anecdote. Get over it.
@Deti
“In my view, a woman does not need to ratchet up her confidence or her self esteem to be with a high value man. What she needs to do is (1) do all she can to improve her physical appearance; then (2) find men of good character that she can be attracted to and is comfortable submitting to. The “good character” part is key.
If she wants to be “worthy”, she needs to start by being pretty and nice and pleasant to be around. Then she needs to refuse to sleep with players and cads.
She doesn’t need to be confident. She needs to be pretty, nice, and discerning.”
Thanks for your response deti. Thank you as well to you and everyone else who has replied (whether directly or indirectly) to my previous posts. My apologies for not always responding back to you or anyone else, but I always did appreciate the detailed and thoughtful replies. While I know that a lot of men only require a woman to be pretty, nice, and respectable to be considered worthy, a lot of women, (even those who do possess these qualities) are still not convinced of their worth and desirability. And self-esteem issues can affect even “normal” women-not just nuts. Most people (including women) want to feel like they have something to offer besides being their looks being pleasant. And if they feel they’re not good enough, it can be difficult to open up to another person and sustain a relationship.
@FF
“Why do you think “this self-confidence and worthiness” is attractive to guys?”
“What are some of these “legitimate reasons”?
“I like to mock others by “putting quotes” on their words. It’s fun. LOL.”
I would answer your questions-if you’re actually interested in hearing my answers and not just because you “like to mock others by “putting quotes” on their words. It’s fun. LOL.” Sorry, but I fail to see what exactly is so mock-worthy about what I wrote.
“Most people (including women) want to feel like they have something to offer besides being their looks being pleasant. And if they feel they’re not good enough, it can be difficult to open up to another person and sustain a relationship.”
Find something, like a hobby or a skill, that you enjoy and that you have the potential to master. It could even be a new language that you teach yourself. Improving or expanding your skill set improves confidence. For religious people memorizing their entire scripture is a useful skill set. Many cultures have that tradition and even give titles to people who do that.
Improving appearance also improves confidence
@Opus
“If a woman is in her mid-thrities and is not a former Carousel rider, then one has to suppose that she has been celibate for twenty years or so, yet that seems unlikely; equally the chronically insecure tend to have ‘a screw loose’, like my erstwhile would-be lover, and it is unlikely to become tightened sufficiently by her mid-thirties. Single women in their mid-thirties tend to fall into one of two categories;either the carousel-rider or the weird and bad-tempered, but I fear that the normal but virginal are as rare as the Arabian Phoenix (a bird much spoken of but little seen). They should also not be confused with serial Monogamists.”
I know this reply is kind of late, but yes, the reasons you listed could be why some women are still single in their mid-30s, but for younger insecure women, they may have reasons for that insecurity because of things that occurred in their life which they had no control over of. I think it’s a normal human reaction to struggle with low self esteem and lack of confidence as a result of negative past experiences which may cause some arrested social development that take can take a while to overcome. However, many women do get there. Everyone goes through difficulties in life-some more than others, but that doesn’t mean they’re crazy or damage goods.
“I think it’s a normal human reaction to struggle with low self esteem and lack of confidence as a result of negative past experiences which may cause some arrested social development that take can take a while to overcome.”
Very true. And everyone is insecure about something. Its just a matter of degree, really.
@MP
“Wrong … what you guys think you see as insecurity …
Is in fact plausible deniability, most women get so used to having their bitch shields up at warp factor 10, thats all they know
Women get so used to playing hard to get, & using plausible deniability to convince themselves of their pure, virginal & chaste for that special alpha cock … they spend life times playing the damsel in distress …
Plausible deniability is the bread & butter of women game …”
It may seem hard to believe to some that there are women who are insecure and lack confidence, but yes, they do exist and indeed wonder what some guys “see in them” and worry about possibly being left for a “prettier girl.” The over confidence, arrogance and entitlement you describe are certainly present in some women, however, these traits and insecurity and lack of confidence are not necessarily mutual exclusive.
@SM
“Find something, like a hobby or a skill, that you enjoy and that you have the potential to master. It could even be a new language that you teach yourself. Improving or expanding your skill set improves confidence. For religious people memorizing their entire scripture is a useful skill set. Many cultures have that tradition and even give titles to people who do that.
Improving appearance also improves confidence”
Good advice
@SM
“Very true. And everyone is insecure about something. Its just a matter of degree, really.”
Agreed.
” The over confidence, arrogance and entitlement you describe are certainly present in some women, however, these traits and insecurity and lack of confidence are not necessarily mutual exclusive.”
Not only are they not mutually exclusive, one will often mask the other. I mean just look at “game” or PUA (pick up artist) techniques, one of which is “irrational confidence”. You read right – “irrational”. And this is an actual core principle of “game”. The theory is that through projecting confidence without having to rationalize it, such as in actually having something to be confident about, like say, oh an accomplishment or two, that this projection “displays higher value” to the females around you and will actually cause them to want to “qualify” themselves to you, or rationalize their accomplishments or characteristics.
And it really IS “irrational” confidence because these guys often have nothing to truly be confident about and they are often the most insecure, self-loathing creatures a gal could meet. But that projection of confidence, for no reason, is supposed to mask their inner world of self-doubt and make women attracted to them.
So I ask, is this yet another game/pua technique that models itself after the behavior of women?
@Perspective
It is certainly never too late to respond to my musings, and indeed I am glad that you did, for it gives me the chance to expand my disappointing views -fort although it is possible that women may improve, as you suggest, I think that unlikely. It is certainly not my observation, as peoples characteristics – good and bad – only seem to become more pronounced with age. Even if they do improve, a man has to ask himself: Is it really worth taking the chance? Putting it the other way round: Would a woman think it worth taking a chance with a man who spent his youth high on dope or stupified with alcohol or unemployed and drifting? I rather doubt it, and for the same reason. Still, one can only cut ones coat according to the cloth available, and usually there is only one piece of cloth; by which I mean that if a man is desirous of marriage, he will find that there is probably only one vaguely suitable woman available, at any given time. The older males become, the lower their slavery to Testosterone, such that below a certain level of female suitability, the man will pass on Matrimony altogether. It is this which is fuelling the marriage strike: a cursory view of OKCupid, is always salutory. Indeed I was looking at it only a day or two ago, and came across some very sad examples of woman-hood: for example; a 43 year old women – unemployed, because she has just completed her Masters degree in Arabic (surely pointless Masters degress are go-faster stripes for women); and then there was another, aged 41 in similar circumstances who any Friday night will be found ‘socialising with friends or chilling out’ – some enticement to commit ones entire life to a female I should say (not)!
Of course one must take every case on its merits, and although the idea of marrying for reasons other than love are anathema to the young, marriages of convenience seem to be the more common with those into their thirties – a compromise, and perhaps a good one, but hardly what they might have dreamed of when teenagers.
@ Perspective:
“While I know that a lot of men only require a woman to be pretty, nice, and respectable to be considered worthy, a lot of women, (even those who do possess these qualities) are still not convinced of their worth and desirability. And self-esteem issues can affect even “normal” women-not just nuts. Most people (including women) want to feel like they have something to offer besides being their looks being pleasant. And if they feel they’re not good enough, it can be difficult to open up to another person and sustain a relationship.”
Bringing it back around to the OP, I was talking about a place for over 30 women to start if they are looking for a husband. Be nice, be pretty, be available. That’s half the battle. Most women I’m seeing around me aren’t any of these or can do only one halfway well.
But I suspect what’s really going on many times is that her standards are still sky high as they were when she was 22 and the world was her sexual oyster. A 30 year old woman is not going to pull the hot men she did when she was 22. She has to lower her standards.
A lot of so-called “self-esteem” issues are derived from, I think, the fact that the hot alpha studs don’t pay attention to her anymore and don’t want to have sex with her anymore and aren’t falling all over themselves because of her anymore.
“A lot of so-called “self-esteem” issues are derived from, I think, the fact that the hot alpha studs don’t pay attention to her anymore and don’t want to have sex with her anymore and aren’t falling all over themselves because of her anymore.”
This applies to a lot of women across all ages. The young average women will have self esteem issues due to they can’t alphas to commit to them. They are very attractive as most young normal weight women are but they aren’t attractive enough.
So when people try to console them and tell them they are pretty. They aren’t lying. They simply don’t see the clear picture. They are good looking but they might as well be an ugly shrew because if it’s not enough for alpha commitment, then it’s worthless. That’s where you see the body image issues.
With guys, people will criticize if he constantly works out and tries really hard to be attractive in other superficial ways. They will point out that a lot guys aren’t studs and they shouldn’t worry about it. However, these guys know at some level, that they have to break into the top 20 percent to even be in the game.
@deti
i think you made a lot of great statements; however, there is something that i just can’t get my head around with this chain… it seems like it started out with everyone talking about how the laws, customs, norms, etc. are stacked against men in our society and for that reason they should opt out of the marriage system.
at some point the whole conversation seemed to devolve into a diatribe about sexy alpha males and how detestable it is for young women of prime marrying age to try to jump on that bandwagon. the problem here is that the term “alpha male” seems to be centered around physical condition. Yes, I did see discussion of $500 dinners, etc., but the reality is that 75% (guess) of the time you are throwing around $500 to eat before getting in your $200,000 car and going back to your $4,000,000 pad, your abs are gone, you work or have worked 80 hours a week for longer than anyone can remember and you are just in a place of system dominance.
i am not saying it is going to work out for women who chase these rainbows, like most entrepreneurial ventures that captivate the minds of our most ambitious Americans, but why the hell wouldn’t a woman use her best years to try to marry a rich good looking guy? as your posts state, it is clear that there will never be a shortage of back up options down the road… and even if she happens to age beyond her ability to settle down with a “prime beta male” that really is not an affront to the beta male, because he is not on a clock and will only become wiser and wealthier with age and “settle up.”
i guess it is the non-system-based anger that i think i detect and i don’t really understand. you clearly have it figured out and you are clearly becoming better with age. you know who gets destroyed and winds up picking up the pieces for most of their adult lives? alpha males. the young good looking ones get owned because they are most likely settle down with the prom queen and then later on get comparatively smashed by the over achiever formerly beta males when the prom queen is over abs and wants to have a benz.
and then it flips from a good job with a good company to the C student that had amazing social skills, learned professional skills, and then had the willingness to let it all ride on an idea and in that proces became an unstoppable entrepreneurial force…
my guess is that that works for people less than .01% of the time… however, when it does i think these people have very little competition. so, i think it relevant to break down alpha by life stage. much easier to be contemptuous of an idiot that can throw a football than a guy that can build a novel semiconductor and take it to market.
on another note, given the endless descriptions of the systemic failure of contemporary marriage to meet the needs of the male primarily predicated on the shortcomings of the contemporary female and that which she values, would it not stand to reason that the beta male has dodged a bullet?
alpha and beta males will never not be desirous of attractive females and women will never not be desirous of the alpha males that match their life stage (which as time goes on tends to be former beta males).
@Opus
“It is certainly never too late to respond to my musings, and indeed I am glad that you did, for it gives me the chance to expand my disappointing views -fort although it is possible that women may improve, as you suggest, I think that unlikely. It is certainly not my observation, as peoples characteristics – good and bad – only seem to become more pronounced with age.”
Yes, I’ve heard and observe the tendency for people to become more set in their ways as they age, but I’ve also seen the opposite, where some are able to mature and overcome a lot of the foolishness that afflicted them when they were younger, more naive and less experienced (and I mean life experience, not sexual)
“Even if they do improve, a man has to ask himself: Is it really worth taking the chance? Putting it the other way round: Would a woman think it worth taking a chance with a man who spent his youth high on dope or stupified with alcohol or unemployed and drifting?”
Thanks for the reply. I suppose it would be entirely up to the man if he thinks it’s worth taking the chance. But if he’s able to really get to know and observe the woman in question and she’s proven that she has changed (personality flaws and insecurities) then I don’t see why he wouldn’t. However, If a man or woman spent their youth drug/alcohol addicted I would not fault someone for not wanting to take a chance on them if they have struggled with addictions for a couple different reasons. First, even if one has been sober or clean for years, it’s possible they could for them to become addicted again, Second, while I’m no expert on the subject, I have read that addiction or rather addictive personality can be passed on to offspring, so there could be a future risk to not only the stability of their marriage, but also the health and well being of their children. As for the unemployment and drifting part, I think that would depend on the reasons as to why they were and also for how long. If someone spent their youth unsure about what they wanted,(and I guess that could be called “drifting”) but were still able to hold down a job and pay their bills before finally figuring out their career in their late 20s or early 30s and then sticking to it, then I guess I don’t really why they would be ruled out potential marriage.
@Deti and Furious Ferrett
I suppose there could be women who feel bad about themselves because the type of men they’re most attracted to don’t seem to give them the time of day. However, a lot of the women I know struggle with insecurity for other reasons. While I think that positive attention from the opposite sex; especially those who they’re most attracted to, can provide a boost in confidence, I don’t necessarily think the absence of that validation is enough to cause low self-esteem and lack of confidence.
@SM
“Not only are they not mutually exclusive, one will often mask the other. I mean just look at “game” or PUA (pick up artist) techniques, one of which is “irrational confidence”. You read right – “irrational”. And this is an actual core principle of “game”. The theory is that through projecting confidence without having to rationalize it, such as in actually having something to be confident about, like say, oh an accomplishment or two, that this projection “displays higher value” to the females around you and will actually cause them to want to “qualify” themselves to you, or rationalize their accomplishments or characteristics.”
True. The neg seems to be a PUA (pick up artist) technique that’s advocated as “game.” And maybe some women go for that kind of thing (which is pretty sad and unfortunate) but I’ve never found this type of behavior appealing at all.
The only advice I can offer for the hypothetical 30+ single woman is two things: pleasantness and contentment.
The pleasantness refers to your looks and personality, by looks I don’t expect you to be a red-hot mama or a classical beauty, just someone a prospective man can look at and think to himself, “If I was to get married, I wouldn’t mind waking up to someone looking like her in the morning”. If you achieve that, you have a sporting chance at least.
Having a pleasentness to your personality to match may sound like a kinda obvious thing to cultivate, but from anecdotal stories I have heard from family and friends over my life, it obviously gets overlooked.
Finally, the contentment refers to both the fact that instead of hoping for Prince Charming to rescue you from singledom, you might just find that aimming for a more realistic option might end up being a better option in the long run since you are more likely to hit moments of happiness more often if you are content with your life.
I’m no wordsmith and I do wish I could express myself better, but I hope that my post was good enough.
ctgvip@
“why the hell wouldn’t a woman use her best years to try to marry a rich good looking guy?”
Most of the time, she isn’t trying to find a husband. she’s trying to ‘have fun’ and “explore her sexuality” and “travel”. There’s time later for marriage.
“alpha and beta males will never not be desirous of attractive females and women will never not be desirous of the alpha males that match their life stage”
Yes, the attractive women will still find men willing to marry them. The question is whether those attractive females actually are attracted to the men willing to marry them.
You’re claiming that male alpha status shifts from the athletic high school jock to the 30 year old guy with the good job to the C- student geek who starts Microsoft or Apple. True to a point, but only to a point. Alpha is less an issue of how much money the man makes or his economic status, and more a function of his personal attitude and mien. The woman who gets with the jock in high school but then marries the accountant is responding to her immediate needs. After she secures the alpha f*cks, she then gets with the beta for his bucks. It’s not about alpha or perceived alpha. It’s about the woman optimizing her sexual strategy depending on her circumstance. But more importantly, the entire society and system have been structured to maximize the most women being able to pursue the alpha f*cks-beta bucks strategy.
lol @ irrational confidence
Confidence is MEANT to be irrational, who the hells heard of self concious confidence …
If you have to constantly think about being confident, you’re not confident, its the exact definition of insecurity …
Which is WHY game stresses INTERNALISING natural confidence
Nothing rebuilds a man more then finding the natural security of masculine confidence …
@deti
Just love your translation in May 2012 (Hamsterlation). It’s blunt but unfortunately true. I’ve seen a few occurrences of that with really hot women who now are still alone but have been ‘pumped and dumped’ with a few kids. As a beta male persona, I just could not go out with them (woman in their late 30s) when they approached me, thinking that I have to now support the alpha male’s DNA with the money I have saved, and yet not having my genes survive the next generation. I guess I’m one of those males that have given up too and would rather put the money in a foundation THAN making sure the alpha males genes are taking care of through future generations. I guess ‘nice guys do finish last’ when men settle with these women.
Its called irrational confidence for a reason.
And self esteem was heavily promoted by the humanists. It plays onnthe hamster, because the order has been reversed. A young woman that bases her self esteem on her beauty has no genuine base. The beauty of youth is a gift. A young woman does almost nothing to get it. Yet even this can be ruined if she is fat, deliberately trashes herself, cuts her hair off, gets tattooes. Oh wait. . .
Whereas, a man that sets out to gain skills and achieve something, has something concrete to base esteem on. It might be a set of skills, or renivation work on his house, or a car he restored from a burnt out shell.
The point is that self esteem is a lie. It is meant to come after achievement. Not before.
@observer. Interesting point and so honestly true.
An observation I also believe is that these late-30’s use-to-be-hot women would go back in a second to their pump, hump and dump boyfriends if they had their youth restored because they would have options again to ‘choose’ among the “feel-me-so-good-but-treat-me-so-badly” boyfriends. Why choose when u can have fun procrastinating. I really do think that these women do ‘settle’ with the 2nd round of men because their choices are limited because their looks, youth and fertility are fading away like tears in the rain. The only authentic hot women are those that are already married with men with mansions; they were smart enough to marry these provider men in their 20’s when they were hot. Why would any woman stick around with a jock past 25 is beyond me; yet I’ve seen it happen time and time again.
@deti
@van Rooineh
I want to express my thanks for your posted insights. It really helped me sort things out and re-affirm (& confirm) my convictions with regards to marriage and heirs.
pathetic. obviously a post by a Neanderthal that thinks women have no business supporting themselves with their own career. It’s funny how so many “men” lament gold diggers, yet the male- only garbage attitude in the professional well paid work force doesn’t leave women much choice. So one can rightfully deduce that men wane gold diggers- so stop complaining. To add, why in the world would a woman want to desperately marry some schmuck she’s not attracted too? So she can say, ” oh look, I’m married too, part of the club!” if you can’t find someone you are attracted too, or not able to attract what you are attracted to, you’re better off single than miserable with someone you don’t really want- just so you can say to your friends you’re married.
“An observation I also believe is that these late-30′s use-to-be-hot women would go back in a second to their pump, hump and dump boyfriends if they had their youth restored because they would have options again to ‘choose’ among the “feel-me-so-good-but-treat-me-so-badly” boyfriends. Why”
NO no no no when will you sexist men ever get it- it has nothing to do with a “bad boy” attitude- these guys are most likely Hot they work out take care of themselves and dint look pregnant. That is why women chase “alpha men” it’s another or perhaps polite word for HOT. Women like men prefer someone they are attracted too (not incl gold diggers) these men know they are hot and that not many men bother being athletic so they have little competition and yes act like jerks- again because they don’t have alot of competition for women out there. So yes they get alot of play because they are the ones that bother to improve themselves. This self defeating “all women only care about millionaires” garbage is bull- a great excuse because you don’t want to bother improving yourself – like so many women, who can afford to at least, do with gym and surgery. Who do these alpha men marry after they are done ploughing through the attractive women who do hot alphas marry? (this afterall is who you betas are complaining about- because as we all know those cute athletic alphas will not date average “beta” girls and from the whining by betas on this board looks like even they don’t want beta girls) well many marry women with money, yes, even men can be gold diggers- so enough with the whining – it goes both ways.
Many are falling into the “dumb hot jock” stereotype, many of those so called dumb athletic jocks get university scholarships, where they study programs that have high earning capability- like finance and business, many also come from wealth and privileged backgrounds, many also work in these industries upon graduation and many are very successful financially- life is not a
Hollywood movie- quite the opposite. On the opposite end, for every bill gates (he was from a wealthy family too- whoops sorry to burst your beta geeks always win in the end mentality) there are millions of beta geeks who work under an alpha MBA. The rule these days seems to be the winklevoss effect- athletic, privileged and wealthy- don’t know many from lower class backgrounds that have the time or support to play sports. Again, your Hollywood movie doesnt fit with reality.
*corrections included*
oh poor beta males, can’t get that hot girl because the Alpha males have her boohoo waaaaaa. whining douches, try being an everyday Jane, educated, from a working class background- you are passed over for many more things than a whiny beta male. beta women with no connections but that fancy education we were told to acquire
have a heck of a time finding work, a profession or career that seem to drop
in your laps so easily. not to mention
that we also have to hear the heavy complaining of you all whining about how
the busty pretty blonde won’t date you-
so you spend your young working life
running over everyone and everything-
having your daddies pull strings so you can get that high laying job ( you get nit from your accomplishments or talent but via connections) so one day you, too, can get a shot at barbie, just like alpha male. In the meantime us educated unwashed and unconnected plain ethnic looking gals are passed over for a great paying career path no matter how many times we prove our merit beyond any doubt. But, hey, it’s ok, we understand that your friends and family must ensure all the good jobs go to you beta geeks- afterall you need that BMW and oceanfront property to put you on equal footing for a hot wife footing with the hot rich
alpha! what do those plain beta geek girls need a career for anyway? degrees are enough to make some clothing out of, no need to actually use em- not when when an unwashed vagrant with better skills than yourself comes between you and your future barbie! Take that Alpha!
Ps. Imagine what the dating lives are like of the “unwashed” educated plain Jane. At least you connected beta jerks can buy your way into a barbie; because your connections have cornered the market for good paying careers, can’t even buy the male equivalent to your barbie fantasy. selfish.
[D: You have used three different handles before I could approve your first comment out of moderation. I’ve consolidated your previous comments on this handle, so please continue using this one.]
Is there a point in there sheane, or is it just your run of the mill man bashing?
Woman who is North of 35 have a slim chance indeed. 35 is the end of the 50/50 chance of sucess. I have no idea why women dont seem to grasp the facts here. They are a pool of diminishing returns after that age. Looks, attitude, health, reproduction all start there downward spiral. I am 44 soon to be 45, I date many women from 28 to 44 “my age”. In honesty the 39 and up better have there crap wired tight or they are getting cut away. I have noticed many women I approch and date have long lists of stuff they wish to have in a man. On a few occations I fell on the ground in laughing fit when they dared to tell me. If you are older then 35 the best you can hope for is a 50/50 split with a man in his life and expences “with a prenup”. I will not entertain a woman who cant take care of herself. My white hores has been long since been put away, my armor stowed away and my lance hold up my tent that I fish out of now. American, Canadian, UK and french women suck. Germen woman are a close third. I am well traveled , “extensivly traveled”. I will say this with no reservation american men are highly prized as the best husband material across the globe with no exceptions. But at home in our own country the women treat us like crap, get bored or unhappy and walk out. Then dare I say they are suprissed that men are not queing up to line up to get 1/2 the crap taken away, there children and left in financial limbo for the rest of there power earning years. If you missed the free ride on a man back in your 20’s to bad in your 30’s most men know the rules of the game and choose not to play. I am guessing by 30 you have had a few bites at the apple, you put it back for a better one down the line and now your done. Take it with a gran of salt after all feminist dont need men or are you not buying that load of crap any more? all the successful women I have ever known all have one thing in common, they go home at night and feed a cat. turn on the TV and listen to the golden sound of silence.
REDONKULAS.COM
Sheane THIS IS FOR YOU
I am doing a vid on beta male to alpha males. but to be honest after 35 both alpha and beta males are skittish about any relationship with her. perhaps a pump and dump or a few late night upgrades aspecially if she is gifted in the use of her slot A and I dont mean talking. You have obviously had your bite at the apple put it back for a better option and now becoming invisable. Call us men what ever you want, insult our penis size, go a head and tell us we wont or cant get laid. Bottom line a day of reconing is comming and it will come in the form of high rise tower retirment communities full of the invisible women. because by that time us men do little thing like die, and leave you all super powered feminist holding the bag. the best joke ever. PLEASE KEEP UP THE RUNNING OF YOUR SLOT A IT JUST GET FUNNER AND FUNNYER.
REDONKULAS.COM
@ RJ:
“An observation I also believe is that these late-30′s use-to-be-hot women would go back in a second to their pump, hump and dump boyfriends if they had their youth restored because they would have options again to ‘choose’ among the “feel-me-so-good-but-treat-me-so-badly” boyfriends.”
Yes. But since they can’t go back in time, what they really want is for the alpha boyfriends to return to them and marry them. The fact that these women could not extract commitment and devotion from an alpha frosts the hell out of them.
And the reason it frosts the hell out of those women is the message it sends them. Which is:
“You were good enough for a romp in the sack. But you just aren’t worth the investment or commitment of time, money, resources, and exclusivity. You’re not good enough for marriage. You don’t measure up, you don’t cut the mustard. I have no problem having sex with you. You’re fun and hot, but you won’t be forever, and I don’t want to be around when the fun and hotness slam up against The Wall.
You. Are. Not. Good. Enough. FAIL.”
@ Sheane:
I’m gratified to Dalrock for pulling your posts out of moderation. The sheer entertainment value alone is worth the time I’m wasting reading and responding to them.
It isn’t until we get to your 8:02 comment that we finally see the real reason for your screed. You’re a plain, unattractive working stiff woman who couldn’t secure commitment from the hot alpha you wanted for sex and marriage. Or, I’m guessing you let one or two alpha studs pump and dump you, and you came to the same conclusion as your beta male counterparts. But judging from your spelling, grammar, run-on sentences, lack of subject-verb agreement, and syntax, that university education and degree in women’s studies or marketing or mass communication or English didn’t do you much good in landing you the cubicle HR/PR job you’re probably working at.
Re your 6:07 comment: More women than men are finding jobs. More women than men have college educations. More women than men are employed. It’s becoming more and more common that women are outearning the men they date or come in contact with. Men don’t want gold diggers. Men want pleasant, feminine, kind women.
And we don’t blame you for wanting attractive men. But all of you want the attractive men and there aren’t enough to go around. So don’t blame us because there are a lot of women doing exactly what you say: marrying men they aren’t attracted to, for the status of being married. Many of those women are doing this precisely after riding the cock carousel.
Re your 6:37 am post: Thanks for proving exactly one of the points we have been making. Women like you are shallow and superficial: you’re attracted to alpha men, looks are important, and women like you have become masculinized. Alpha jerks are attractive because they don’t put up with your shit. They don’t have to; because if you don’t do what they want; they’ll find another woman who will.
Alpha men don’t get married when they are done, because they never get “done”. They don’t have to be “done”. They don’t marry. The rare alpha who does marry, secures a top woman (See, e.g., Vox Day, Rollo Tomassi.)
Re your 6:55 am comment: A few hot jocks get scholarships and study rigorous subjects. Most flunk out and flame out. Sure, a lot of alphas come from wealth and privilege. So what? The mass of men well understand the hierarchies we live in and which are imposed on us. We’ve been navigating them since grade school.
RE your 8:02 comment: Ah, getting to the good part. So, what’s really going on here is that you’re all butthurt that the hot alpha stud you probably pined after wouldn’t give you the time of day. And what’s worse, you actually had to WORK to get to where you are – just like Ernie Engineer and Paul Plumber and Tom Teacher and Eddie Steadyman. But you weren’t interested in Ernie or Paul or Tom or Eddie because they’re pudgy round the middle and thin on top and a bit mundane. They don’t “improve themselves” and don’t “work out” and look athletic, so you turned up your nose at them. No, you passed them over and let the hot alpha turn you out after drinks at the bar one night, and then he didn’t call you back the next day.
No, Ernie and Paul and Tom and Eddie don’t get Barbies. Most of them get nothing. Or they get a used up, turned out, washed up ex-carouseler who’s between the ages of 28 and 33, desperate for anything she can get. She used to love the hot alpha bankers and lawyers and financiers; or F*ckbuddy Rockbanddrummer. But since they won’t even take her home for a pump & dump anymore, she’s now decided she’s really attracted to accountants with receding hairlines and middle managers with expanding waistlines. Yeah, those are the guys she really wanted all along because they’re “such nice guys” and she “wants to do it right this time” and is “tired of the playas and the games” RIIIIIGHT. What these guys need to know is that what’s really going on is she can’t pull the hot guys like she used to; she’s running out of time and options; her bio-clock is roaring like a freight train; and she needs a husband NOW NOW NOW; and once she locks him in and gets her one or two kids, she’ll divorce him because she just isn’t haaaaappy.
And finally, Sheane, if you want marriage to a halfway decent man, if you’re at a 4 or above in basic attractiveness, you can get a man anytime you want. I guarantee you that you could find at least two men in your general vicinity who would wife you up TOMORROW if you made yourself available for it and turned down that attitude that screams out from your writing. And even if you didn’t want marriage, you can get sex anytime you want. Sex is constantly available to you as a woman. Sex is available only to a handful of men. Most men can’t even get average women like you to get coffee with them, much less have sex with them. And most men can’t even use their bank accounts as attraction points, contrary to your opinion.
NEXT!
@Deti – CLASSIC !!!!!
I’m finding that when we get all the way down to the bottom of the points of most women who comment in and around the sphere, they break down into three basic categories.
1. Women who are unable to secure commitment from sufficiently attractive alpha men. (See, e.g., women commenting on this thread and the “are women done with men at age 55” thread, and HUSsies.)
2. Women who could not secure commitment from sufficiently attractive alpha men, but secured commitment from a less attractive man, and are attempting to rationalize and hamsterize their choice/circumstance.
3. Women who were able to secure commitment from at least one alpha. (See Stingray, SunshineMary, RedPillWifey.)
There are so many problems with the “alpha” / “beta” nonsense it could fill several books….
I have to ask, where in america are most of you guys (and gals) writing in from? Are they coastal urban areas?
I also have to say that I am WAY more attractive now then I was in my 20’s. I have the same (actually a better more fit body now) I was always thin, but only caring natural tone that I was given by my genes. I know how to “own” my look way better now as well. I think if I were to have gotten married in my 20’s not only would I be unhappy now, but I don’t think I would have had enough independent experience to help mentor my children if I had not lived the life I had and instead attached myself and been codependent since I was 23. 23 is so much different now than it used to be. Your just graduating into a (now) unpredictable and ever changing climate. I look at 23 year olds and they have that “wet behind the ear” look in their eyes. Any guy that likes that, cool go for it.. It would have never been the guy I would have ended up with if I was 20 ( I mean come on, you can’t even order a wine when you are that old) 23, just graduating and figuring out what city I wanted to line in what job offer ( even though it would be temporary ) to choose, let alone a life mate who not only I would be happy with for the rest of my life ( I never wanted to get a divorce, no problem against it) , but who would also be happy with me and the younge woman I was about to become.. I know how to cook clean, iron, etc.. My mom and dad have been together since they were 15 and 18. They are best friends and adorably in love, and that’s great! Yeah it would have been nice, but in their time, people didn’t have the option of going away to an amazing school that was a 4 hour flight away. They didn’t have the option to spend a semester in Europe studying. Also, since this is a berry differen and changing rapidly climate, girls are having sex WAY younger than ever before. Wouldn’t you want to marry someone that could help coach her? Bot because she has experienced the same exact things, but because she has had the experience. She can more then empathize when her daughter calls her from college at 22 and is stressed about a dating/relationship situation or upset. I know some guys in their 30’s and 40’s who have the view that woman do expire, however I know a lot more men that love a woman for actually being a woman. Which is being kind, selfless, warm, sexy and sentual ( yes all the thing that would make a feminist cringe) but also can hold a great Job that she enjoys but doesn’t get her panties in a twist and needs to either go to the gym for hours or drink away her stress 5days a week.
Maybe it is about your personality, or the “vibe” you give off? Or the type of man you are looking for. I mean if you are a Pelope Cruiz don’t date guys who are into a Gweneth Paltrow type. ( I don’t know why you would want to) I think people gravitate to those who are similar in a certain way. Maybe so me of these girls were Barbie dolls in their 20’s , maybe these woman had issues they needed their 20’s to work through that we’re out of their control, maybe they were introverted and shy. Whatever the case may be, a common thread here I have noticed is that you have to take into account the times we live in. That whole sex in the city stuff, woman (should be) past that crap. It’s fun and funny to watch, but as “cool” as Carrie was, she was also a very self centered and self indulgent character. I wanted to scream get over yourself, when I watched some of the episodes again. It reminded me ( well minus all the drinking sex and scandals) of how my friends and I used to discuss things when we were in high school ( yes in the 90’s -when brow lipstick was considered hot) but n the note of lipstick.. When a girl in her 20’s wears it, she either looks older than her age, or slutty, unless she is rocking that 1920’s thing, but even then it looks a little pervy. However a woman in her 30’s? Come on! That’s sexy hell.
Anyhow I really wanted to know where most of these responders lived, and wanted to share just a bit of my thoughts based on reading (and skimming) some of the comments here. ( which btw, I agree sometimes on what both the men and woman have had to say here)
But to the young woman out there. You’ve done your thing in your teens, twenties, and now your 30’s. the most important thing is to keep growing, and challenging yourself. Keep an open heart and an open mind. Be warm, be kind. Take a class, learn a new hobby, keep yourself interesting to you, and others will want to be apart of that.learn how to stand up straight when you walk, and smile with just your eyes, hold that twinkle. That is what real men fall in love with. Don’t loose it and become bitter. If you never had it, go find it inside yourself, do things that will give it to you. I have seen men in their 30’s look at woman in their 50’s who have that look, give off that energy, and I can tell that for a second, he was in awe by her.
I didn’t edit, reorganize, or proof read.
I am waiting for a train typing on my iPad.
JDM says:
Blah, blah, blah…
If you are going to do a parody of an aging feminist about to hit the wall, you could at least throw in a few curve-balls that don’t come straight out of the feminist playbook. It makes it somewhat more credible.
Hahaha.. I didn’t know I was doing that. ( I am actially not into the feminist view point) Thanks for letting me know.
Actually, I wonder. From what I wrote what have you assumed my age and situation are?
@ JDM – at least in your thirties- I think late 30’s early 40’s. Quite honestly it doesnt matter how old you are nor your build. I strongly suspect the attention your getting is not from marriage minded men but quite the opposite.
As you mentioned “I know some guys in their 30′s and 40′s who have the view that woman do expire”.
Allow me to shed some light from a guy in his 40’s who has dated women in 20’s, 30’s, and late 40’s that are 8’s-9’s and borderline 10’s.
I confirm with their observation- they do expire.
Yes you are correct, I have seen/dated attractive older women “who have that look” and “that physique”.
To be be exact ex professional Harley Davidson Catalog model (size 2), ex professional Land Rover catalog model (also had her PhD- size 2), ex professional tennis player (size 0-2), and ex professional body builder (size 2) whose build was better than Dara Torres and 8 pack year round (amazing build & athlete).
You are seriously missing the point as so clearly depicted in your response.
Yes, men are attracted to a killer physique from women 18-50. Lets put aside the condition of the skin, plastic surgery, and physical maintenance(required) for a moment.
The “inside” is the problem.
Feminized women at any age are unattractive – get it ? The “altitude” and seriously thinking you know what men want in a wife / mother material is skewed.
Morales / virtue / modest is attractive. If you doubt this – the highest value in the market place is a attractive, virgin with high morales / standards – This cannot be denied.
In addition, there is a VAST difference between “attraction” and “attractive” = get it ?
I dont care how attractive a woman might be (yes I love a disciplined hard body physique on a woman) but the hysterical, psychotic, attention whore personality is a instantaneous deal killer and/or a woman who cant hold a somewhat intelligent conversation (I like smart / educated as well).
Best of luck trying to land a guy that meets your standards of which I strongly suspect will be lowered as soon as you figure out that no decent guy want to marry a slut let alone a woman who looks / behaves like one.
~Shalom
In addition – this might be a bit of speculation on my part, but i dont think so.
If you came from a home that had a moral /stable father in place. You would know what a man finds attractive instead of getting your cues from Cosmo / Self / Femanzi and your self esteem would be obviously higher and you wouldn’t need implants for men to find you attractive and most important – you would be married to a decent guy.
~Shalom
JDM has to be a parody, from some guy. That first sentence gives it away: ‘I am way more attractive now than I was in my twenties’ and it just goes on and on and on. LOL
I’m amazed men had the grit to read jdm’ s post. I bailed in the 1st couple of sentences
@Ton – I do agree. I can say for myself, Its a learning experience in proces. I am self training myself in the of hamster rationalization interpretation translation school. This website is a great way to learn and get insight/feedback from others who are far more skilled at it.
As the old saying goes – Iron sharpens iron…
~Shalom
1)you didn’t answer the question. Where in America are you guys residing in? 2) guys if u don’t want to read my post, don’t I haven’t read a lot of yours. 3) a lot of what I wrote was actually my personal advice to the young woman reading this thread 4) Though you date woman hold their apperence as their calling card, you have not married a single one of them. ( you are correct that certain woman do age poorly, especially if they are ‘over processed’ for a majority of their life from wearing too much make up, processing the crap out of their hair, to over extending their body since they have been young. all of these woman you have mentioned also have highly competative aspects in competion and not much else. models are incredibly. 5))obviously crazy is a deal breaker 6) I think plastic surgery is really gross ( unless a nose job or a really unfortunate condition the girl has had for a long time, like a nose job, things like that ) in general I think plastic surgery, enjections, all that suff does not make a woman prettier, it ends up making them creepy looking, and does not help them to age more gracefully. ( Just my opinion) 7)You could very well be dead in that some of the attention I receive from men as well as boys would not be for a LTR instead it would b for bedding. 8) As well as the assumptions you made about my age, character, and current situation you are very off. I an curious as to what others assume my situation might be. I have not ridden the carousel as you guys put it. However I’m not a prude either. I have been in long relationships all have ended on good terms, and i have also been single. When I was single I did not slut it up. An occasional brief dating and bedding, however realized this was not someone i wanted to engage with further. I was never attracted to the ‘alpha male’ that kind of peacocking never attracted me I have encountered, known, and still know alpha male types and have never found their personality structure attractive. I do however enjoy when a man take the lead. I have always been attracted to the quieter man, an observant man. When I was younger ( high school) a lot of people didn’t understand that. ( girls and the alpha men I knew) I was teased for some of my crushes. do not consider myself to be an alpha or beta, i can take and handle the reins when need be, and let others lead as well. . I would not consider myself a 9-10 physically . i am no Megan Fox. I would say I am a 7-8 and have been rated that by guys. I always understood that no one person is perfect ( it would be insane to think otherwise) we all have our baggage we bring along with us ( people gain extra baggage along the way, some have had it since they were kids) it is very important to not let these bags become too heavy or all consuming this way you can keep evolving and be able to hold a bag or two for others. This is true for men and woman a like. i feel that it’s being able to know that you can carry the bags a man comes with, and that he an carry your as well. Something else I would like to add, I would have had no problem being ( for lack for a better way to simplify this concept) ‘barefoot and pregnant cooking, keeping the house, and actually being there to raise children’ I think the fact that woman have held such and importance on their career has been part of the downfall of the American children growing up in the younger generations. However this is the world that is existing now. When I have children it will be increadibly important to me ( and always was) to be there when they come horn from school each day. To make sure they have family dinners where cell phones are not included, help them with homework, etc.. To keep somewhat of a family structure that has seemed to deteriorate in today’s society.
@singer etc. You are all wrong wring wrong. Keep playing from the Angry Beta male playbook- hr? Wrong genius! go back to bitching about alpha males. Theyre hot, get the girls you desperately want etc etc it is what it is. I dont care, never did, but you bitter set obviously do! Hey you shouldn’t be so bitter I’m sure daddy set you all up with a nice job to make sure you can compete with hot alpha- what’s wrong? That barbie pumping and dumping you after the money is gone? Or perhaps cheating on you behind your back? Don’t worry you can get another one, daddy will provide an even higher paying job you don’t deserve! Take that Akpha! Boooohoooo waaaaa waaaaaa keep your assumptions up you know what they say about that, they make an ass out of you not me.
@jdm aka 50’s throwback
What’s wrong with men keeping house? And looking after the kids? I know several that do and are happy- their wives make 6 figure salaries. What’s so wrong about that? It’s ok if you are too lazy to go out and work but it’s not always women that want to stay home.
@jdm
Notice how when women stand up for themselves and throw the dirt right back in their faces these beta males refer to calling women sluts and oh dear FEMINists!!! Looks like even with all of daddy’s work connections (hey daddy worked hard to throw other more qualified and accomplished people out of work so you could take Flopsy to the south of France! Show some gratitude!), their bmw’s and big homes and buying their way into a barbie they are still miserable. Amazing!
@ JDM – I am sorry about not guessing your age or situation correctly. My ESP (extra sensory perception is in need of recalibration). There is a recalibration station in San Diego – it located off “Apathy Place” and ” Attention Cocotte Avenue” before you get to “Psycho Path Way”
Allow me to suggest that ALL people have a self perception bias and are prone to self deception / compartmentalized thinking. If you think this is incorrect – then you are in deception. The question is how self actualized are you ? It takes a rather robust person of strong character to “know thyself’ the good and the evil and work at reducing the evil and increasing the good. External change is easy compared to internal change – this cannot be denied.
If must know where I reside- San Diego, CA and have resided in Phoenix, Boise, OR, & WA. Most of my relationships have been in the So CA & AZ.
Your arguments are self effacing whether you realize it or not – here is a example:
“I have not ridden the carousel as you guys put it. However I’m not a prude either. ”
” An occasional brief dating and bedding”
This alone is indicative of your morals and upbringing.
In addition:
“You could very well be dead in that some of the attention I receive from men as well as boys would not be for a LTR ”
I think you might have missed my point – humility, morals, all encompassing femininity is very becoming and will raise any woman a couple points in my book (most men as well).
All encompassing femininity is a rare sighting in the USA. What is seen is quite the opposite and hence the unattractiveness.
You have no idea what true femininity does to a man – none. If women only knew that acting/dressing/behavior of a base person vs feminine “class” does to a man. Then they have a lot better shot at trophy status or close to it.
It is said “absolute power corrupts” this is true. When a woman perceives she has “the power” it spoils whatever beauty she possess despite outward attractiveness. With that being said – I would be curious to see the outcome of your situation. Why not get some testicular fortitude and pony up a picture of yourself & your beau ?
Btw, best of luck in the commitment department. May you find what you are looking for.
~Shalom
I also NEED to mention. This post is supposed to be advice for woman. That’s what lead me here. Not telling them they have ‘expired’ and pointing out what they may have done wrong in their 20’s. Advice about moving forward. Which is why I asked where very one is living. Lets be real. Dating and looking to find marriage under or over 30 varrie’s if you live in Texas, Florida, Ohio, Los Angeles, Arizona, Michigan, New York.. So I think the advice should vary as well.
@deti and the genius terrencepopp
Boy you both are really bitter that you have to pay for it- show some gratitude- see previous posts. now newsflash for you and warning you hold on to your pot bellies, you too could have a woman IF YOU LOWER your standards. Look if you don’t have daddy to mow over qualified candidates and put you in a high paying job to pay for barbie, then, well, you have no other choices. Well you do, you can gripe about feminists and ASS u (not) ME that alll women are sluts, because the Alphas took all your game. boohoo oooo waaaaa
Oh and don’t get us started on your crap grammar.
[D: I should just zap this stuff, but it is too entertaining.]
@singer you are a pompous and arrogant know it all- no wonder you have been on the carousel for so long- decent women stay faaaar away. enjoy.
JDM says:
I also NEED to mention. This post is supposed to be advice for woman.
Good advice…in case that wasn’t obvious.
Lets be real.
Yes, lets do that…
I have seen men in their 30′s look at woman in their 50′s who have that look, give off that energy, and I can tell that for a second, he was in awe by her.
This qualifies as both very bad advice and stock feminist fantasy. One thing it certainly isn’t is reality.
Spinelessly have to agree with Sharrukin, I’m afraid ..
” I have seen men in their 30′s look at woman in their 50′s who have that look, give off that energy, and I can tell that for a second, he was in awe by her.”
Never happened. Ever.
Even with Thatcher. Unless they were gay.
Perhaps you may have misinterpreted a shudder.
JDM, dahhling, your ‘Hispanic peasant’ stereotype is simply todie for. I was in stitches.
” berry differen “ lol.
Are you ‘resting’ at the mo? Pray tell when your next production is opening.
Tam the Bam says:
Never happened. Ever.
Even with Thatcher. Unless they were gay.
Perhaps you may have misinterpreted a shudder.
There are exceptional women who can look reasonable at that age, but they still don’t compare to a woman in her prime. And they are the rare exception. It is a silly fantasy that aging women tell themselves so they can sleep easier at night.
Her entire post is just a defense of the status quo and justification of her choices in life. If a women wants to sleep around and end up alone, or be forced to settle for someone when they are on the reverse slope of their fading youth, then its great advice. As far as children go, marriage, or good men…not so great.
Some things she got right. Men are attracted to confidence and poise, with the understanding that obnoxious and loudmouthed are not the dictionary definition of confident or poised.
JDM is so right. As she says, she is not a slut, and is it her fault that she receives attention from men and boys. It’s true she dated and bedded some guys, short term but they weren’t her type, so she moved on – I’d have done likewise. JDM says she is a 7 or an 8 so it is hardly surprising that Dalrock’s advice for those who have difficulty finding a man is of no use to her – advice such as deferring to a man, and trading excitement for long-term stability. Taken at her own estimation, I’d say she is almost perfect, if you are in the market for a wife – grammar and spelling should not be a deal-breaker.
@JDM
“I also have to say that I am WAY more attractive now then I was in my 20′s.”
Learning to put lipstick on a pig, doesnt make you hotter in your 30’s ….
THERES TWO types of hot chicks …
Hot chicks who dress slutty, ie dress & act to be hot
Hot chicks, who use their looks to bag, serial commitment
The problem with both types, is the fact they both become alpha widows, too quick & too rapidly to actually be in a real LTR
Plus theres the fact, precisely because they never get to see a real society, theyre also ridiculously poor judge’s of character …
Also basically because theyre hit on, practically constantly by dancing monkey alpha’s, they think all men should have a ridiculously high level of cocky funny & drama …
On the upside .. hot women dont require obscene amounts of confidence & aloofness, making hot chicks alot easier to be in a relationship …
As long as you can keep them interested, with drama, cocky etc. …
Only sluts & whores require obscene amounts of confidence & aloofness
Are hot chicks worth a LTR?
If you can keep up with their warped view of a priviliged princess … yes
But you should really have serious amounts of Bank, to provide the right type of environment for a 8 or 9, if you want a decent LTR with one …
I aim for 8′ & 9’s, but I know i’ll always default to hot tight 20 year olds …
Which is why I try not to hit on 8’s & 9’s, as it’ll ruin my taste for hot young tight chicks …
I seriously cant be bothered with the great white whale of a 8 or 9, when theres hot young tight chicks, around every corner …
Addendum :
Hot chicks who dress slutty, ie dress & act to be hot, are basically putting lipstick on pigs …
You cant cover natural hotness with oodles of make up & slutty mini skirts & low cut tops … dressing like a slut has a limited rate of return …
Men will see a hot natural chick dressed like a slut, as a sign of insecurity & batshit crazy … & stay the hell away from her, leaving her to the pump & dump alpha’s to pick off her carcasse … until she hits the wall
Dress like a slut & alpha’s will pick your carcasse clean, until you hit the wall …
Remember beta’s & solid men will always hit on decently dressed women, to protect them from the hovering alpha’s looking for a new carcasse to vulture off …
Reject a beta at your peril …
“have to ask, where in america are most of you guys (and gals) writing in from? Are they coastal urban areas?”
-I live directly on the beach in Los Angeles, CA – the spinster capital of the United States. I would say this qualifies as a coastal urban area.
“I also have to say that I am WAY more attractive now then I was in my 20′s. I have the same (actually a better more fit body now) I was always thin, but only caring natural tone that I was given by my genes.”
NO! NO! NO! NO! YOU DON’T!! This is the most common delusional lie unmarried women in their thirties CONSTANTLY say use to obscure the truth!! Unless you were 100lbs overweight you DON’T look better than you did in your 20’s!! Not only that – it’s biologically impossible!
“I know how to “own” my look way better now as well.”
-It’ doesn’t matter. Men don’t care about this. Question: Which one looks better naked? A poorly dressed 23 year old 7.5 in short shorts and a Target t-shirt? Or a 34 year old who was a 7.5 at 23 in a designer black dress wearing solid gold from head to toe? Which one looks better naked? Not to mention more biologically fertile, less likely to have baggage, less likely to have a high partner count. The list goes on and on.
I’m not going to bother to respond to the rest of your post. It’s all typical delusional 30’s Pre-Spinster gibberish which is addressed on this website. More men are becoming aware of this. You mention Sex in the City on HBO. This is the perfect example of the LIE that’s been sold to women they can jump from sex partner to sex partner without repercussions until they are ready to settle down. Then all the stars and planets align and Mr. Big pulls up in his limousine to take you to the alter. In real life women like this end up in dive bars getting passed around (assuming anyone wants it) getting older and older. Reading this website will expose all your lies. As you read you will come face to face with the facts that no con game continues indefinitely. Eventually the word is out. Only a few suckers are left to pick up the tab. Everyone knows the con. The game is over. The internet has made this possible. You will NOT be able to have your cake and eat it too. The game is over.
P.S. Learn to type correctly and use paragraphs.
@sheane ” you are a pompous and arrogant know it all- no wonder you have been on the carousel for so long- decent women stay faaaar away. enjoy.”
Thank I do enjoy my time and not being nagged to death. Btw, you played the “your a loser” card”, which is a femnazi tactic to deflect the validity of a what I wrote. It is quite obvious what you wrote is reduced to a ad hominem / straw man argument (is that the best you can come up with ?)
Obviously what I said is true and got to you 🙂
You know nothing about me. Nothing. You made assumptions about my social life that are wholly inaccurate. Whatever – I really don’t need your helpful advice. It isnt about dating, courting, or sex, which is not a problem at all, if I choose.
However, I will address something you brought up
– where are the “decent women” ??? WHERE ????
The only “chaste women” I have met is NON AMERICANS (exception the exception of a few divorced Mormon or Islamic women). Absolutely astounding !
In addition – PLEASE DEFINE “decent women” – have fun with this one 🙂
Here some more for “giggles” about Ms. JDM 🙂
– She is past the childbearing age
– Her virtue /chastity and upbringing is quite obvious.
What woman in her child bearing years would remain in a LTR without seeking marriage ?
It is quite obvious of her virtue /chastity (lack of) and her morals (lack of again)- she has doesn’t know how to blush nor is she embarrassed.
Any decent man will respect another person for realization & repentance.
However, realization & rationalization (hamsteralization ) = venal/base/absence of morals and someone not to be trusted nor respected.
Allow me suggest to stop attempting to justifying immoral behavior that is rampant in America. What you are suggesting is in horrible taste.
For centuries and currently, a womans chastity/honor was valued and prized (ie “Much ado about nothing” offers a serious & comical side into this)
~Shalom
@Miss JDM – One more for the road.
“Not telling them they have ‘expired’ and pointing out what they may have done wrong in their 20′s.”
Jack wrote some responses that were “classic” of which I would like to repost. Before, I do what strikes is the personal autonomy and lack of introspection of which
– why should a chaste man choose a marriage minded older woman who has had multiple partners vs a chaste marriage minded younger woman ?
Either you assume that man is idiot or you are doing your best not to look like a fool. Every action has a repercussion / consequence. It is quite obvious this wasn’t taught to you by your parents or in school. This is the price one pays for their actions. The sooner you quite attempting to shame a man into marrying you and change actually change yourself.
Btw, here are Jack replies that are noteworthy”
-How would it feel. Well, a large number of Christian men are ALREADY on the receiving end of that attitude, or a version of it. When Christian women engage in licentious behavior with non-Christian men, they are implicitly saying the same thing:
“Despite your commitment to Christ, you are not good enough. I would rather sleep with this non-Christian guy than even consider dating you. However, if I ever change my mind, you will be required to pretend this offense never occurred. This way, I get to have sexyfuntime with the college boyfriend, while maintaining nicechristian guy as a marriage ‘n’ babies backup plan.”
Oh, the women didn’t mean it that way? Well, we are all free to interpret the signals others send us, just as you have decided to have follow your interpretation of my words.”
AND
At least for me it is a deliberate choice. Not so for lots of spinsters.
Women are the gatekeepers of sex, and men are the gatekeepers of commitment.
I refuse to give commitment to a woman who did not guard her virtue. She gave it away to other men, and I find it unattractive. No judgment implied. Just not attracted to women with a past.
Therefore, I’ll just stay single and date. It is not my problem that lots of women have blown their chance to get married and are now stomping their foot demanding that men suddenly be attracted to something we are not.
~Shalom
I’m glad to see this post is still alive and well. I am in a similar position as the OP. I’ve read various posts from you guys about how much power a woman has over a man. I’ve got very little game, so I’m curious how this power actually works. What I was taught about men have hovered around “The Rules” or some variation (let his calls go to voicemail, do accept dates with men who call after Wednesday, or whatever day it is, act aloof, etc.) Now, of course that doesn’t work. So how direct should the OP and other women in their 30s be? I had a friend who met a guy and told him “I like you and I would like to date you.” Now I’m not sure what tone she used, but the guy disappeared for about 3 weeks. She contacted him and he said he talked to some of his married friends and felt he wasn’t ready or didn’t know how to date. So taking the wait and see approach isn’t the most effective. (Lord knows I spent too many years thinking “well, he didn’t ask for my number/say anything to me/ask me out so I guess he doesn’t like me. I’m probably not his type.”) So what’s the happy medium between demanding men date you and waiting patiently for them to ask?
I had no idea men hate women so much…and its really sad. It seems that all men commenting here releasing accumulated aggression towards women. In other words, a bunch of losers being regularly rejected by women, including those in their 30-s:)
What do you mean ?
You can ask politely?
Oh…. and of course that comes with the risk of an ego-bruising rejection.
That something men have to deal with all the time, that all the woman date-initiators can’t seem to take. The rejection causes the woman to take up some entitlement attitude with the false dichotomy of “demanding men date you” and “waiting patiently for them to ask.”
“I had no idea men hate women so much…and its really sad. It seems that all men commenting here releasing accumulated aggression towards women.
-Speaking for myself only – I absolutely do not ‘hate women’. I just hate what most women have chosen to become.
“In other words, a bunch of losers being regularly rejected by women, including those in their 30-s:)”
I was rejected by women in my 20’s. I was interested in a long term relationship and marriage. Girls I was interested in sensed this, and rejected me for it. We can’t know what’s in peoples hearts and minds. But we can observe peoples actions. Their actions proved they were interested in partying, and having multiple sexual partners when they were young. Not a long term relationship leading to marriage and a family.
At least not back then…
Fast forward to 2013. I’m single and live on the beach in Los Angeles. My income was $170,000.00+/yr in 2012. It will be the same or more on 2013. Women can sense this. Just like they sensed me in their 20’s and rejected me. However now it’s the opposite problem. Far from being rejected as you claim; I cannot get these women to leave me alone.
Let me repeat that for you in case you did not hear it. I CANNOT GET THESE WOMEN TO LEAVE ME ALONE. I wish this statement was an boastful exaggeration. But it’s not. I live in Los Angeles. It’s the spinster capital of the United States. There are millions of single never-married 30+ year old women here. They have no problem passively or directly approaching me. It sounds like I’m bragging. I wish I was. But I’m not. I’m repulsed by this women. So It’s the exact opposite problem vs. my twenties. Here are some recent examples:
Yesterday:
Hit on by thirty something single mother.
Past 2 months:
Hit on my Spinster at Land Rover dealer
Hit on my Spinster at Grocery Store
Hit on by two “born again” Spinsters asking how often I go to church at church.
Hit on by Spinster asking me about converting to Judaism because I got Matzo Ball Soup .
Hit on by attractive but “slutty looking” girl at Jamba Juice. Talked for 15-20 minutes. I was hoping she was still in her twenties. Trying to get to her age. Finally got it. She was 31 years old. No thank you. Goodbye.
I’m interested in courting, dating, pair bonding (Thank you Dalrock) marrying and having children with you IN YOUR TWENTIES. NOT IN YOUR THIRTIES. This is an ultimatum. A non negotiable demand. An order. It’s my way. Or the highway. ANY women over 30 and unmarried is too fucking old. And there IS something wrong with her by default. She is good for one thing only – and it’s not marriage.
Don’t like it? Then marry some unattractive low income loser who doesn’t care because he has zero options and needs a warm wet place to dip his wick stick. Or just continue the behavior you established in your youth lilly-padding like a frog passed around into your 30’s and 40’s from guy to guy – like the whore you are.
Wow, why do I miss all the fun? This post has turned into a great example of hitting the wall.
I haven’t laughed so much in awhile. Keep em coming! You know you’re getting to the heart of it when the responses you get are covered in shaming and nonsense posts about pot bellied losers! I love it!
It is true: we are all a bunch of losers, regularly rejected by women and thus bitter and twisted and angry (A-my is so perceptive) but it is strange that although people like A-my come here presumably to read the head-essay, they never seem to engage with Dalrock but merely everyone else en masse. Is D wasting his time? Is his advice so bad? What exactly is so daft about being vaguely pleasant and placing oneself before eligible men – if marriage is your desire? Perhaps that is just too much like rocket-science to be easily grasped. I guess we will never know. Far better to indulge in a bit of male-shaming. That is certainly the way to attract men who might just conceivably be interested in you, I’d say.
I guess marriage is just not what these fillies want. Perhaps it is just pump and dump after all – silly of me to have ever supposed otherwise. Certainly women in their thirties that I have met in recent years seem to have gone out of their way to give the impression that they are too good for everyone and everything and with fitness tests to match. I just wish that they would stop ringing my door-bell, stalking me, or abusing me in the Bar for failing to respond to their tests or alleging that as a result of my non-interest that I am pursuing them in some inappropriate manner.
Gentlemen…. I was sincerely hoping back for a responses from A-my.
Lets see if she can come up with some testicular / mental fortitude worthy responses to further explain her post.
Michael says:
May 26, 2013 at 2:43 am
RE what Michael says!!!
I’m 50+, married 20+ and absolutely not looking, I really have NO interest but I’m engaging and flippant in public.
I don’t wear jewelry (no wedding ring) other than a conservative wrist watch. I’m reasonably fit, and look 40 something (I’m told).
I get hit on all the time, and like Michale said, this is no boasting, its fact.
I’m very polite, always immediately say I’m married etc., the usual response is “so?”….no shit!
I was at a function recently and a cute 21YO was all over me, and I was with the Mrs, who is very good looking…bold? forward? crass?….
So, this same function, I found my table adjoining a table of 30 something career girls, all droning on about no good men, blah, blah, blah.
These women were all nice looking and from a purely “would I bang that?” perspective, they were all very “do-able”. Then they opened their respective mouths, it was nauseating! Each had a recent date story and the graphic details, the nasty deconstruction of “his” performance, quirks, etc. If they were the last women on earth, I’d have to snuff them just to have peace and quiet!
You can educate, employ and dress a pig up, then apply lipstick, but it’s still a pig. These women were expired for one reason…shit attitude!
All the married women at this function were…in a word… pleasant!
Gals, this isn’t hate speech, I’m trying to help you here…be pleasant, maintain virtue, learn basic manners, stay fit, dress like a girl, lose the foul mouth, tattoos and lack of sobriety and attitude!
No, I am not going to explain anything really. Can just shortly tell my story. As you already guessed I am in my thirties. I will only marry a man, whom I am in love with. It happened, that I was in love only 3 times and all 3 relationships failed (I did not have relationships apart from this) and it took me too long time to recover each time. So, that’s the reason I am still single and its not something I planned. And now I am in love with 43 years old man, crazily in love (I am 34). How I got here? I just searched what expect men in their 40-s and accidentally found this blog. It really hurts when you read all these comments from men. It does not matter how old are you, you still want the very best for yourself, and when I say “the very best” I dont mean A-class guys, or how you call them. What I wanted to say in my post? That there should be a reason for men to be so much aggressive towards women and my guess is that they don’t get what they want, maybe it was too harsh to call them “loosers”, but still.. I will probably not come back here. As I understood its sort of a close “we hate women” club.
P.S.English is not my native language, so there might be parts I did not explain well.
And I, that had the same boyfriend from 20 to 28, the ONLY man I ever “knew” and that I expected to marry, but didn’t work out because HE decided at almost 30 that he didn’t wanna became a decent family guy anymore….and now single with 29, should I also be considered a carrossel rider by every man that I know from now on,just because I’m single at this age?
A-My, we are not woman haters: we just dislike what we see in most unattached women we encounter today, as said above. If by contrast, you are pleasant and feminine in your demeanor, have guarded your virtue and remained fit and without tattoos, then you are very much in the minority. Most unattached women over 30 fail at least 2 or more of those criteria. I’d bet bottom dollar you know such women at work or at church.
The same advice goes for Carolina: be pleasant and feminine, guard your virtue, stay fit, dress well, no tattoos or body piercings other than earrings. If you are already that, you’re one leg up on the competition.
@A-my & Carolina
Try & use some reading comprehension …
lol do you think men would spend so much time talking about women, if they hated them?
You guys dont understand what theyre trying to tell you …
Theyre telling you, you’re responsible for your own actions, & complaining & blaming men for your own actions, & choices is pointless
You cant change or undo the actions of another person, you can only take responsibility for your actions & move on …
As long as you dont take responsibity for your own actions, you’ll never learn from your mistakes & you wont be able to move on …
A prime example … Carolina …
It doesnt take 8 years to realise, if a relationship is working out or not …
If you dont know a relationship will lead to a family after 2 years … you should have checked out
It’s your own fault for staying in a dead end relationship
We all know WHY you stayed in a dead end relationship … it had nothing to do with the hope of a family …
Take responsibility, learn from your mistakes & move on
If you cant find a husband, but still want a family, get IVF, find a sperm bank, etc
Women have ridiculously huge options to choose from if they want a family
It’s not easy to find a husband when you no longer have your youth & fertility to offer … be realistic
“You can ask politely?”
I was exaggerating to make a point. I don’t go around demanding men date me. That’s ridiculous. I have asked out men and been rejected. Maybe that’s some women’s problem. They’ve been rejected and done their share of rejecting men, so they don’t want to risk another rejection.
This is why I asked about women’s power. Because most of the women I know don’t think of themselves as having much power in the initial phase of the relationship, at least. They still leave it up to the man to initiate.
A-my / Carolina, I’m wondering how your comments got approved and whether this blog would benefit from having more of them.
@Carolina
He didn’t want to be come a decent family guy with you because he’s sinful, and well, why should he? He was tapping you for free. You set up an arrangement whereby he had nothing to gain from marriage.
Besides: What did he learn about you? He learned you’re willing to give up the thing he finds most precious (Which was patheitic of him to value most, I’ll agree.) if you think it will get you want you want. In this case: a monopoly on his time, money, and sexuality.
Let me rephrase your question: Why should you be given a pass for riding the cock carousel for eight years just because you stayed on one cock?
When we phrase it that way, it becomes obvious that what you did was slutty and stupid. H probably wasn’t fully conscience of the reality that you presented him with, but we’re made in God’s image so there’s always a bothersome niggling in our brains when things aren’t quite right. I addition: He’s obviously got poor self-control when it comes to women. You could have been married to that.
@A-my
” you still want the very best for yourself, and when I say “the very best”
I think you are a bit confused.
If a educated / chaste man wants to marry a educated / chaste woman. Is that the very best ?
Quite often people have standards for others that are higher for others than what they have for themselves – this is hypocrisy.
A chaste man doesn’t want a woman who has had multiple sexual partners- she is morally, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally damaged goods.
What can she contribute to raising moral daughters ? It is the highest form of parental hypocrisy to tell your children not to do what you have done (As a general rule of thumb – apples dont fall far from trees my dear A-my).
Despite what a carousel thinks (male or female) – if one thinks they are going to change stripes overnight and become monogamous. HA HA !!! Any person that believes that is delusional fool. This like having your cake, ice cream, chocolate topping, whipped cream, diet and not working out while expecting to loose weight- It simply isn’y going to happen (Mackpua said this a lot nicer than I did “It’s not easy to find a husband when you no longer have your youth & fertility to offer … be realistic
The real issue I think is the long term emotional/spiritual/mental damage done. They have poor relationship /emotional etiquette and are unsuitable for marriage partners. The unwillingness change has serious consequences of which takes a person down a even a darker road from a psychopath to a triad / borderline sociopath.
~Shalom
@Hopeful
I was going to reply later on, as what you’re asking for requires a lengthy comment lol
If you’re getting rejected by men, it basically means you dont know how to talk to men
It also means, you dont know the type of men who’re attracted to you …
Girl game for women in their 30’s changes dramatically …
Basically because 30 year olds have been coasting in their 20’s & havent dated for so long in their 30’s, they dont know who is attracted to them
& they dont know how to talk to men … as strong masculine attention is no longer there, the closer you get to 30 …
The key to a successful relationship, is to know the type of person who is attracted to you, & to actively seek out a person receptive to you
Body language is 80% & words 30% of all communication
You cant make ppl fall in love with you, what you can do is seek out ppl who want to fall in love with you
The main problem for women, especially in their 30’s they have no idea the type of man who actually wants to settle down with them …
This is the MAIN reason they’re still single in their 30’s …
Teach yourself how to spot the guys who are attracted to you & want to settle down with you, they are usually not who you think they are …
If you want men to ask you out, you need to use techniques such as fractionisation & compliance & kino
Basically talk to a person ,longer then you normally would, & touch the other person frequently ie their arm, tap their shoulder or arm to emphasise a point you’re making etc.,
You also need to calibrate the right level of IOI’s you need to give, to let him know you’re interested in him
This is key, as men arent very good at knowing if a woman is interested in him
Basically talk to him longer, escalate the kino, until he realises you’re interested in him
Just make sure, you’re subtle when you’re escalating
As men have a slut radar, which is triggered very easily …
I’ll cover conversation later, as its late over here … lol
I just want to point out what A-my did here…
…was drop what can only be described as a nuclear neg, and then demand men Demonstrate Higher Value of themselves. I’ll refrain from commenting on what the responses say. We’ve all read the playbook.
@MackPUA
“Teach yourself how to spot the guys who are attracted to you & want to settle down with you, they are usually not who you think they are …
If you want men to ask you out, you need to use techniques such as fractionisation & compliance & kino
Basically talk to a person ,longer then you normally would, & touch the other person frequently ie their arm, tap their shoulder or arm to emphasise a point you’re making etc.,
You also need to calibrate the right level of IOI’s you need to give, to let him know you’re interested in him
This is key, as men arent very good at knowing if a woman is interested in him
Basically talk to him longer, escalate the kino, until he realises you’re interested in him
Just make sure, you’re subtle when you’re escalating
As men have a slut radar, which is triggered very easily
I’ll cover conversation later, as its late over here … lol”
MPUA, this is really great advice and I look forward to reading about what you have to say about conversation. I think I could personally apply a lot of the tips which you’ve provided to Hopeful because the way she’s described herself and situation is pretty much the same thing (minus a few small differences, i.e, have never been a “carousel watcher”) I’d say about myself. I’m also wondering if you could please elaborate more on the “slut radar.” What do you think would be a happy medium between that and what you’ve previously described as the “bitch shield.”
It is late over here and I have not been checking my personal emails over the weekend. I skimmed the last 2 comments based on some girls email and I think they are spot on.
I would like to reply to micheal and more of what he had to say. 1st I meant you could be dead on, not dead in. The I and o are right next to each other on the touch screen, and I didn’t proof read? My bad. There are some very good points of advice in some of these comments, it just might b difficult for some girls to weed through because there is so many negative comments as well. So, a bit about me. I met, fell in love with, and married a man all in my thirties. I went to a good school, upon graduating I didn’t know what I wanted to so with the rest of my life. I knew I wanted to travel so I made that my priority. I took a job bar-tending which was quite lucrative, provided me with time off and I also learned a lot about people. ( I did not slut it up obviously) after that I put my “degree” to work and took a job out in Los Angeles producing movie trailers, me and a solid team then started our own company. I got tired of making grey trailers for crappy movies , and went into event coordination ( not party planning) where I represented venues, and built on my contacts from entertainment I had a good customer base. Again, I felt like I wasn’t contributing in a certain way that fulfilled me. I went on to help charity organizations with their events. Moved to NYC because there was more of the clientele am mentality that I felt suited me ( as opposed to the “new money” vibe out in LA) I have even very happy ever since.
Micheal, you obviously are attracted to a somewhat alpha woman who is competitive either by looks or performance. I am not an alpha woman, however I can be if need be. I was also never attracted to alpha men, that kind of peacocking just doesn’t do it for me. However I do like a man who can take control and knows what he wants. You live in sandiego by the beach, a lot of people love it there, for me personally you would have to be paying me way more than 200,000 a year to live there. Again you and I are very different, I preferred Venice beach.
I could go on, but honestly it isn’t worth it because some of you will agree, some of you will try to pick apart every word I say and judge me on it. I also have a fundraiser that I am hosting with my husband tomorrow and have other things i would prefer doing than trying to defend myself to a bunch of strangers who I obviously don’t have a common ground or understanding with.. I thought some of my words might be useful to someone reading this, ( because i actually have experience on the matter) but it doesn’t look like it.
Take care and best of luck to all of you..
JDM – as a general rule of thumb I avoid ad hominem since I admire “bit more class/good forum” and intellectual honesty. However, in this case, I am going to make a exception and combine rebuttal question in the form of a ad hominem. With that being said – please bear with me.
“You could very well be dead in that some of the attention I receive from men as well as boys would not be for a LTR ”
vs.
“I am hosting with my husband tomorrow”
Come come my dear. Do you honestly think this would go unnoticed ? Why lie ?
Being a ex married guy of 17 years – this is the “first time” I have ever heard a women refer to her marriage as a “LTR” (this just might be my sheltered interactions). However, marriage is a marriage and is intended to be quite permanent while LTR are not.
With that being said – your opinion and credibility is along the lines of a scatalogical term ( I am being kind with you since I am quite concerned about hurting your feelings due to “thin skin”).
With that being said – I dont think you should attempt to defend yourself among a whole bunch of strangers since obvious the content and character shows intellectual dishonesty.
I could go on but I think sums up quite a bit.
~Shalom
@ JDM
I’m not quite sure what you angle is on here. If you’re married it’s a moot point. You’re posting on an article advising women how to get married in thier 30’s. However you just said you had a
Husband. A miracle in itself if you waited to your 30s to wed vs. your twenties.
I do not live on the beach in San Diego. I live on the beach in Los Angeles.
All points have been discussed on this website. Women who wait until they are nearing the end or out of their 20s to marry should not be surprised when they are sitting home alone googling advise on how to get married after 30.
They had over 10 years to get it right and willingly chose not to.
@michael singer
lol I swear JDM’s hitting on you, she says you cant afford her 200,000 a year & you’ll have to do better then venice beach …
Now thats what I call hypergamy, holy cow… lol
Guys, this is what a married chick looks like … beware, forewarned …
JDM- “for me personally you would have to be paying me way more than 200,000 a year to live there.”
JDM … still holding out for the millionaire plumber … at the age of 30 …. omfg !!! greedy woman …
My bad I meant michael … lol not singer
@mackpua – Michael lives in LA and I live San Diego.
It is a bit confusing she was addressing however she wrote “You live in sandiego by the beach”
Whatever, whatever she wrote doesn’t add up:
– Vast difference between LTR & Marriage (married people they do NOT refer to their relationship status as LTR)
– She never made any reference to children (I might be mistaken) but she did have any.
– Her whole So CA to NYC (“I wasn’t contributing in a certain way that fulfilled me) is really meet a guy and followed him to NYC
Why do think I suggested for for her to gather some testicular fortitude and pony up with a of her and her LTR now become husband ? LOL 🙂
Allow me to suggest a typical “psychopath”
~Shalom
Cane Caldo:
Yep. There is no get-out-of-consequences-free card for premarital sex. Eight years of fornication is still eight years of fornication. Just because you always ride the same horse it doesn’t follow that you aren’t riding the carousel.
It is interesting the transition of guilt / shame.
1. Guilt would accompany the first sexual experiences.
2. Shame is now accompanies those who lack sexual experiences
3. The lack of shame / guilt is sign of “emotional burnt toast”
Immediate sexual gratification without actual commitment presents a bill with extraordinary interest.
@sheane
@JDM
Why is it impossible for a woman to get sexually assaulted? Because it is easier for a woman to run with her skirt up than it is for a man to run with his pants down.
@Zippy
“Yep. There is no get-out-of-consequences-free card for premarital sex. Eight years of fornication is still eight years of fornication. Just because you always ride the same horse it doesn’t follow that you aren’t riding the carousel.”
Someone needs to explain, a relationship outside of marriage is still fornicating …
As ZIppy points out … if you fornicate for more then 2 years, its almost as bad as cock hopping, as you have no guarantee of commitment
As everyone knows … sex without commitment is useless, especially in a LTR
Which is why, you should never stay in a LTR for more then 2 years, as there is no guarantee of commitment
Basically a LTR over 2 years is a waste of time
In exactly the same way, a marriage without kids is useless & meaningless
A LTR with no guarantee of commitment, especially after 2 years, is FWB
A LTR with no guarantee of commitment, is useless, women should be running away from them like the plague …
This also applies to marriage without kids, if you dont have kids, the marriage is useless, as you’re basically FWB, without kids
You cant have a family without kids, as thats the whole point of marriage
A childless marriage is useless, its no different from a LTR with FWB, you might as well stay FWB & save yourself the cash from a useless wedding
LTR with no guarantee of commitment is fornicating & basically cock hopping …
This is basically the problem with the women, commenting in this thread
They stayed in LTR’s & STR’s with NO GUARANTEE of a commitment, idiots …
An LTR for more then 2 years is NUTS, nuttier then a hamster hitting the wall …
Get your commitment, or get out of the LTR … tick tock ladies
There is a difference between a punch and murder. There’s a difference between a carousel, and an LTR that never becomes marriage. Sure it can be called sin, but it is not the same sin.
@ LIA
“YOU MEN ITS THE SAME FOR US WOMEN…”
-Another deluded female espousing her kinds likeness to men. NO ITS NOT THE SAME NOT EVEN CLOSE.
“A MAN SHOULD MARRY A WOMAN HIS OWN AGE, THE OLDER MEN GET THE HARDER IT IS,”
-Correct me if I’m wrong but haven’t studies proven the most married couples remain married where a “healthy” age gap exists? Someone correct me if I’m wrong in this. I seriously did see a statistical study showing somewhere between 5-10 years being “healthy” age gap. Something like that.
” MOST YOUNG WOMEN UNDER 30 DO NOT WANT SOME OLD DUDE”
-Not sure what you mean by “some old dude”. However I would actually agree with the jist of this because “most young women” are wasting their youth today.
“HERE IS ANOTHER STUDY…WHY MEN AND WOMAN SHOULD BE THE SAME AGE, THEY DO GO THOUGH CHANGES ROUGLY THE SAME TIME:””
-Yes. In a perfect society. More precisely, the society that ended in the middle of the 20th century.Men and women should date and marry young and go through life’s changes together. Most wealthy households have long term successful marriage. My Aunt and Uncle spent ages 18-25 in a 400 sq ft studio apartment next to train tracks that shook all the pipes in the house every time the train went by. Today they been married almost 50 years, are worth 2-3 million dollars and look back and laugh about it.
This is NOT what women are doing today. Women WASTING THEIR YOUTH and expecting what they are “entitled” to , be it good husband, nice guy, good father, good provider, soul mate, whatever – to just “appear” when they are ready and not before. Usually sometime near or after age 30. Sure. They CLAIM they are looking for it all along. But their ACTIONS prove otherwise. And in this world ACTIONS are what counts. Observable, provable ACTIONS.
Now, I will cut the other female commentator some slack. She “claims” she was with the same man for 8 years. ages 20-28. However the fact remains she WASTED HER YOUTH. This man sucked the youth out of her and guess what? SHE KNOWINGLY AND WILLFULLY LET HIM. Now her youth is going, going, gone. Is she a slut? In my opinion: Absolutely NOT. I want to make that point clear. However from my point of view it matters little. I’m still putting it all the line (marriage) for a stranger who ‘claims’ she was only with one guy (or even a few). And what am I getting in return?
ZERO YOUTH.
ZERO FERTILITY.
ZERO HISTORICAL BONDING.
And in the end all I have is HER WORD she is telling the truth.
I agree 100% with Michael. Even if he had been making the $170k salary he makes now when he was in his 20s, I bet that the women still would have rejected him! It is crazy, but so many women in their 20s don’t want to be in a relationship or tied down with a man at the start of his career. Women in their early-mid 20s routinely reject good-looking men who make good money simply because those women want to party it up, play the field, and don’t want to settle for a “boring” man. Of course, by the time those women hit their 30s, those “boring” men are looking much more attractive. Those men, however, are well aware that they are more attractive to their same-age peers and aren’t willing to settle for just anyone, which must be difficult for those women to handle.
I met so many women in their 20s who essentially had an attitude like, “I am hot and can do whatever I want and if a man doesn’t like it, I’ll find someone else.” When those women get older and eventually wise up, they realize how hard it actually is to find a compatible man.
One of the things I see some otherwise attractive women do that just makes me question their sanity is getting tattoos. Do women not realize that having a tattoo makes men assume that they are either slutty or trashy and unworthy of marriage? I know white collar women who have them and when I see them it just kills my attraction. Most men I know absolutely hate seeing tattoos on women.
Urgh. Tattoos. Un-Art. The province of slaves, articled clerks, and barmaids.
But that’s just me being bigoted ol’ me. Aesthetically, I can be a bit jittery and gunshy, and could never bring shame to my surname by allowing it on myself. Even to hide scars.
The only thing with a tattoo allowed to get naked in my house is the odd side of Danish bacon.
I have been following the comments on this page for a couple of weeks. There are comments that I think really cut to the heart of many matters and there are some comments that seem bitter and unresolved.
Someone castigated a woman for spending years 20-28 with the same guy in the hope of winding up married. He said it was the same thing as banging unlimited alpha males for eight years and that sex should only be had once married.
Really, jackass?
So you are going to lash out at a woman that was not being easy and was offering sex in a relationship that she believed was a pathway to marriage? You think you are going to help this cause by lambasting a woman that entered into a monogamous relationship and stayed there for eight years only to have her guy not want to go through with it?
You blame her for that situation? Newsflash, alpha males do not stay in relationships for more than three months (according to comments here), much less eight years, so how could she not have seen him as anything other than an alpha?
This has not been brought up yet, but clearly as a man of exceedingly high morals you would never help a woman sully herself… Ergo, you have never slept with a woman, as to do so would make you a hypocrite that has debased the notion of female purity, which you appear to hold so dear.
I am not making virgin jokes and I really have no axe to grind on this matter; however, it is true that people want to experience what they want to experience no matter the consequences. If a girl wants to feel like a model she is going to make a good short term decision / poor long term decision and bed the quarterback. And the chips fall where they may…
Maybe because I have always been fortunate in that regard; the last thing I care about is whether or not a woman is a virgin. Clearly testing is in order and everyone has a moral duty to make sure they are right before entering into a marriage; however, how does virginity help me? I guess if I had severe jealousy and insecurity issues I would want to make sure my wife was a virgin, but I don’t…
The thing I don’t get here from many posters is that you can’t just make do with winning. Your female peers were given some information regarding feminism and I am not sure it worked out for them very well … All these women are coming back around and you now get to reject them due to their age and CRC proclivities. Reject them in favor of what though? If you had a girl in her 20s (general tip: there is no apostrophe in 20s, etc.), it would not occur to you to give a crap.
Whether or not the girls that did or did not want you were in their twenties, as you have stated that you are embittered that they did not, it would not change the highly rational part of many of the comments here… None of that changes family court and many of the most reasonable gripes that men espouse when avoiding marriage. Not getting a defective situation 10 years earlier does not harm your life, it probably improves it… How does getting a woman that has ridden fewer c**ks change the fact that we are unfortunately living in a reality TV world with female role-models that could not be worse? How does it change the fact that both marriage and divorce are massive industries? We have a society problem, it was allowed to get to this point by all involved.
The thing is that it’s not like their lives suck compared to yours. You can yuck it up about how they came back around against a veritable biological time clock, great… Maybe they have a cat and a shitty job and a shitty life, but they are doing just as well as most guys out there.
So you say the loss of opportunity at family means more to them? Maybe or maybe not, I don’t know and I don’t care, but it sounds like the bitterness on this board has a lot more to do with an eternal truth than feminism… alpha males have always banged whatever they wanted to bang… the difference these days, as opposed to all of prior human history, is that today they just bang what they want to bang instead of executing you and your entire family and then banging whatever they want to bang.
Assuming you knew how to read, write, or anything approaching such dignified endeavors, I would love to see how these complaints would resolve themselves 500 years ago. My guess is not very well.
Anyhow, I am on board, I just think the bitterness is a detriment to the important societal commentary.
J
My dating life disproves the notion women in their 20’s do not want some old dude.
True they don’t want some old dude hitting on them in a dance club, however, they respond well to a muscular, fiscally secure older man they meet in the gym or at the store leading them into a relationship. Throw in some Southern charm and a couple of war stories….
Blimey what an exquisitely punctuated .. tantrum.
I can almost hear the little patent-leather slip-ons drumming on the cubicle’s carpet-tiles.
I feel so, so collectively Shamed ..
Anyway
“.. prior human history, is that today they just bang what they want to bang instead of executing you and your entire family and then banging whatever they want to bang. “
Cool. As long as they’re paying for Princess’s (or should that be Princesses? do I care??) upkeep, and I’m not around to listen to the whining, the Alphas can till their own damn’ fields.
Anyone using the word blimey must have had ancestors that were familiar with the term “prima nocta.” I couldn’t have asked for a better comment than that one.
J/VIP
Critique of punctuation, and now vocabulary, is a tool of faux intellectual pedestrians. We get that a lot here. Usually it is less artfully done, I give you that.
But seriously, did you come as a proof reader, an editor, or as someone who wishes to engage in the discourse? You will find some comments that follow, strictly, every rule of grammar, perfect syntax, excellent reference indicators, etc. Others type in all lower case.
We don’t care. Your last sentence in your lengthy post above seems an apt summary. Best to stick with it.
Maybe try a short opening summary, some quickly stated support statements, then a strong concluding statement like the one I just referenced.
Knuckle cracking Mother Superiors come and go here while the grammatical knuckle draggers (Tam, not a reference to you or anyone specific at all) find a place; sometimes they are even given the podium. .
@ ctgvip “Someone castigated a woman for spending years 20-28 with the same guy in the hope of winding up married. ”
“lambasting a woman that entered into a monogamous relationship”
“You blame her for that situation?”
Blame her or feel bad for her ? No. She shot her wad. This was her STUPID decision. No one coerced her into it.
Her lack of prudence / foresight is quite obvious and has consequences. Hopefully she learned a lesson to prepare for marriage. The majority of “smart” women want a commitment /decision in 8-9 months vs 8 years since women have a “shelf life’ – This cannot be denied.
She has “shot her wad” big time. Not just physically, but mentally, and emotionally, and morally.
She is mentally & emotionally bonded to this guy, She will never be able to let him out of her head & emotions. She will always return /think/ wonder about him. How in the heck does she explain 8 years of promiscuous lifestyle to parents, friends, and not to her future spose ?
Rather uncomfortable situation unless she finds man “just like the old one” who did the same thing to another woman (ie uncommitted long term relationship) and hence it doesn’t matter. If she is fortunate she find a guy “just like her” – Sounds like ideal relationship material imo 🙂
Every action has a consequences and there is perfect justice.
~Shalom
Anyhow, I am on board, I just think the bitterness is a detriment to the important societal commentary.
We’ve talked about the bitterness on other threads before. I agree that bitterness is a bad place to be, and that guys need to make decisions about what they want to do with their lives on the basis of the facts and what they want or are willing to do and not be bitter about things being the way they are.
I do not think that means that guys should “man up and marry the sluts” unless they want to do so. I do not think they should be shamed into marrying ex-carouselers, because this is a “win” for them — again, unless they themselves want to do so.
Finally, we’ve discussed quite a few times on this blog that LTRs are not more moral than STRs, from the perspective of Christian morality (this is generally a Christian blog, even though many of the comments veer off of that) if they are sexually active (which they almost all are), because this is simply a different kind of fornication. It isn’t “worse fornication” if you are not “in a relationship”. That’s a fundamental premise of this blog, and it very much goes against the conventional societal wisdom you seem to have imbibed, but is quite in accord with Christian moral teaching about extra-marital sex.
Btw – good article “Can recreational sex turn a selfish, irresponsible man into a marriage-minded provider?”
http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/can-recreational-sex-turn-a-selfish-irresponsible-man-into-a-marriage-minded-provider-2/
@ctgvip. I thought what you wrote was great.
I had no idea this was a Christian Blog.
This is all making a lot more sense now.
Also, I never said I was in an LTR currently.
I said I had been in long relationships in the past.
My apologies for mixing up the two west coast guys on here. Both of your tones are so aggressive that they just blended together for me.
@ JDM – A suggestive read to all women. There is a bit of humor in there as well.
Thanks to OPUS for the suggestion.
THE INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY OF WOMEN by David Stove
http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/women.html
~Shalom
No sweat empath. I do it on purpose (not correct sloppy diction and so on), I’ve got nothing to hide by using spellcheck and so on, I’m utterly shameless about it. And the “prima noctis” thing is a myth. At least Over Here. Anyway both mum’n’dad’s surnames (who knows who the rest were? Does anyone?) have been armigerous since the 12th and 11th centuries respectively, i.e. when they first pop up in records (in trouble, and up before the beak, as usual).
Got a right one here. Even more mincingly self-regarding and flatulent than King, if that were possible lol. Right I’d better shut up, or the intended thread derail by the utterly furious grammar nazi will have succeeded. Must have a shedload of pie-faced, bandy-legged daughters still on his hands.
Jackass, here.
1. Sin is sin. Sex outside of marriage is sex outside of marriage.
2. I didn’t say they were the same. You are inferring that because you don’t like what I said. Bummer for you because–as the rest of your remark indicates–you have no idea how she can help keep herself from getting into the same situation because you think “shit happens”, and it just “happened” to her. You believe there is no lesson to learn; that there is nothing from which she “really” ought to repent, because you think she didn’t “really” do anything different than lots of other you believe worthy women do before marriage. Therefore: You think it’s acceptable to fornicate outside of marriage in an absurd attempt to gain marriage. That’s stupid and slutty; as I said.
I didn’t lash out with just any old thing: I came with the truth. And good for me and her for my doing so. If someone had been swifter to her than I with the truth, she would not be demanding justice for her own stupidity; which must then be condemnation of her. From a material perspective: She might very well have a great husband, instead of an asshole ex-boyfriend.
Yes.
That sentence makes no sense. What are you asking here? Can or cannot alpha males stay in a relationship for more than three months? Did she or did she not stay in a relationship with him for eight years? She could not have seen him as an alpha because he stayed around for more than three months. She could have seen him as an alpha because alphas are what girls want period, and for eight years she obviously wanted him because she stayed.
Stayed in what, though? A sexual relationship that was outside of marriage. The bounding cock carouseller at least can say that she made multiple attempts with various unworthy dudes. This one kept banging away at the same knucklehead for eight years; never learning that obviously neither he nor she were worth marrying to each other. After eight years and 20 notches, a woman will know she’s doing something wrong, and start looking for marriage material, with a marriage-minded attitude (whether that’s a good bet for a man to take is another question). This woman still thinks that her situation is someone else’s fault.
“The mouth speaks out of the abundance of the heart.”, and, “It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out.” Men–neither alphas nor betas–do not defile women. Women defile themselves; just as men do.
Newsflash: Grammar Nazi Gasses Himself with Stupid Remarks. Chokes to Death on own Confusion; Perfectly-Punctuated Petulance
@ JDM
Normally I don’t break my own rules. I never write from work. However I want to respond to this comment from JDM:
“I had no idea this was a Christian Blog. This is all making a lot more sense now.”
Do not write this off as as Christian blog. It’s not entirely a Christian Blog. From what I can see there is a Christian element to it, which is why I like it. It’s more civil, intellectual and morally centered. But it’s not exclusively a Christian Blog. So please do not waive your hand and dismiss the replies as being religious based. Some commentators are religious centric. Some are not. The most amazing thing is you will see a common theme regardless of religion or atheism.
I’ve noticed no matter what the person’s religion everyone possesses five (or six) basic senses. So anyone can see what is happening to society today even if they are not quite sure yet.
@ JDM
Ok, it all makes sense now. I had no idea it was a Christian blog either and was really having trouble getting my head around why so much anger and spite was infused into commentaries that are predominantly fact. It is almost like a lot of people here are gloating when they deliver the harsh dose of reality.
If I was a doctor and had promiscuous patients that I repeatedly told not have unprotected sex and some of them wound up testing positive for HIV, I seriously doubt that even though I was “right” in warning them not to do it that I would get any pleasure for delivering the harsh news. I certainly would not gloat about it or do a happy dance in my office.
I would focus on being caring and compassionate no matter how bad the news or how at fault someone was prior to having to receive it… but hey, maybe that is just the compassionate agnostic in me … Ironically, I find many of the comments on this blog wrathful…
I don’t see many comments here that are not factual, it’s just seems a lot of the comments are colored in a “haha, now that you have made your bed *bitch* go lie in it mentality.”
I would really like to see a blog like this that provides these kinds of great insights without the judgement, in my opinion it cheapens and discredits the whole exercise.
@ Cane
What is the point of even having a conversation about any of this stuff when you might as well say to a woman in her 30s looking to marry:
1) You are a sinner
2) Your transgressions have made you unworthy of love, respect and marriage
3) You are beyond saving, even if you do repent I have judged you, labeled you a whore, and shamed you
4) I am a hero for pointing this out well after the damage has already been done
You offer absolutely no constructive advice even though the title of this page is advice to women in their 30s looking to marry. The damage is already done according to you, I don’t really see how kicking someone when they are down and pointing out how bad they fuc*ed up is helpful.
Here is some advice for women in their 30s looking to marry:
Move as far away from where ever ideas such as the ones above are coming from and take some personal development classes, get in shape, figure out a way to make a meaningful contribution to the lives of others, which will allow you to find happiness, which will in turn make you attractive to men, and the relationship you have been looking for will follow.
@ ctgvip
Now I have to stop what I am doing again. Listen to me ctgvip. Are you DEAF? Read what I just wrote. Above your comment.
This is NOT exclusively a Christian blog. From what I can see it has Christian element setting it apart from other sites which makes it (in my opinion) one of the more civilized intellectually morality oriented discourse blogs you will see on the internet pertaining this subject; AKA the reality of women marriage and gender relations in the 21st century.
If you want to see “anger and spite” “infused into commentaries” go visit the predominantly NON CHRISTIAN AND NON RELIGIOUS blogs. There you will see spewing nastiness with less than half the facts you will read on this website.
Again. Do NOT attribute anything you read which doesn’t sit well with you emotionally to this being: “oh it’s Christian blog”.
It gives you a license to dismiss. I know what your doing. Stop labeling.
@ctgvip
Yes.
Yes.
This is where you try to reframe what I am saying, because you don’t like it, and because you don’t want her to be saved. I haven’t labeled her a whore, but clearly pointed out that she’s been living as a whore. This makes sense of why she feels like she has been treated as a whore by her ex-boyfriend. I have not shamed her. She confessed to her own deeds. My words do not add to her sin. Nor have I accused her of anything outside of what she admitted. You have lied.
No, I am a fellow sinner who tells the truth as it was revealed to us. You have lied.
The constructive advice is already known to everyone on this blog: Don’t sleep with people to whom you are not married. Yes, the damage to her schemes of fucking a man into marriage have been very badly damaged; irrevocably so. I suggest now she move on, and rebuild upon the Rock, Jesus Christ. If she hasn’t or won’t bend the knee to him, then she’s hopeless anyway; as are we all.
You, however, tell her to lean on her own understanding; to depend upon herself and her “personal development”; to leave when she has found the one place that will tell her the truth.
Tell me: Which bit of advice you gave is not lifted straight from the Oprah Playbook?
The paragraph that starts: “You offer absolutely…fuc*ed up is helpful” should be in blockquotes.
Sorry to make you work overtime, Dalrock.
[D: No problem. Strangely the blockquote tags were there in the text. I removed them and put them back, and now it seems to be working. Maybe there was a typo neither of us could detect.]
@ctgvip
The post you are commenting on was in no way unkind to the woman in question. Don’t take my word for it. Go ahead and read it. Once you are done, feel free to quote whatever part of the OP you found too judgmental. I strongly suspect that your issue isn’t with the post as I wrote it, but the comments of others who (not unlike you) shared their own thoughts on the internet.
@ Michael
I am not sure what my ears have to do with anything going on in this forum, but heck, let’s not get bogged down in the details.
My last comment was directed at Cane.
This is from his comment to me above: “1. Sin is sin. Sex outside of marriage is sex outside of marriage.”
This is from something that just came through while I was writing this: “I suggest now she move on, and rebuild upon the Rock, Jesus Christ. If she hasn’t or won’t bend the knee to him, then she’s hopeless anyway; as are we all.”
I am just working with the material that is coming at me here, I am not trying to purposefully work religion into every comment in an attempt to discredit the blog or anyone else.
What I believe to be the good ideas on this blog stand up because they are reasonable and we live in a cause and effect world. If you wait too long, guys will not want to marry you, if you sleep around too much, guys will not want to marry you, if you do x, y and z, guys will not want to marry you.
These are just biological facts. We are programmed to want more fertile females with whom we can reproduce (younger equals more fertile), we are programmed to not want to raise the children of other men, especially from other tribes, we are programed to look for people with whom to interact that do not engage in risky or dangerous behavior that can drag us down.
People can use morality to explain why humans do certain things, such as not marry a woman in her mid 30s that has been partying for 15 years, but not amount of moral argument is ever going to be more powerful than the fact that men are biologically more attracted younger and more fertile females that have done less damage to their bodies over the years.
I just don’t understand the emotional investment in it… It is what it is because it is what it has always been.
@ Dalrock
I was not commenting on your article, just enjoying the opportunity you have provided to respond to comments. I did not mean to say that your blog was judgmental, I was trying to express how nice it would (in my opinion) to see a bunch of comments that discussed these issues without be judgmental tonality, which I think might be a pipe dream given the nature of posting things online. It is solely what I felt about some of the comments, which of course is not on you.
@ctgvip
You just made the case for a blind universe where “things just do things”. You used the term “work”, but that was either an error or a lie on your part. We can know that it’s not “work” in the sense you used it, because “work” necessarily implies “trying” to do something for a “reason”–but “trying” and “reason” are things that are done by a mind that can perceive and act and react.
You appeal to an instinctual basis for instruction, when instinct requires no instruction–by its very nature.
Why should anyone care what you believe? You’re just an meaningless thing instinctively doing things. You ain’t even tryin’ to know nothin’ ’bout that larnin’ shit, dawg. On what grounds are you an authority on the mechanics of socio-sexual relations, or even an authority on the “reasonableness” of others or things?
What you are referring to as religion, I very much am trying to work into every comment in an attempt to give credit to this blog, and everyone else. This religion is the only light that makes everything seen. Understand: when you’re talking about sex and relationships with a Christian, or in a Christian format, you’re talking about the foundations of our beliefs themselves. The brokenness of the relationship between Adam and Eve and God caused death to descend upon the world. It is what necessitated our Lord to denigrate himself to becoming the lowliest human, and then subject Himself to torture and death, so that death and brokenness might be banished forever.
Your biological facts are shadows of things. Come out of the shadows.
Cor Blimey!
We stand rebuked.
I would obviously be wise to go outside now; I might be a little while.
@ ctgvip. allow me do a slight rewording and remove the religious connotation of the following
“1) You are a sinner”
2) Your transgressions have made you unworthy of love, respect and marriage
3) You are beyond saving, even if you do repent I have judged you, labeled you a whore, and shamed you
TO
1. All actions have consequences / predictable outcomes regardless of ones knowledge of them. Ones interactions with others or lack of interaction regarding sexual practice alters ones personality.
2. Because of behaviors one has taken in the past forces one to choose from partners of equal morals to yours (ie perfect justice). At this level of morality – men dont respect women, nor honor/cherish women and the concepts of marriage. As a result, these men at this level of morality make poor marriage partners and the relationship is a casualty before it makes it out of the gate (The same hold true of men.)
3. You have reaped what you have unknowingly sown. Chaste men & women of higher morality refer to this level of morality as whorish and no desire to pursue this level level of morality / relationship in marriage due the predictable consequences that will occur due to the previous behavior and the alteration of personality that occurred.
~Shalom
@cygvip
Agreed 100%. I thought it was people giving woman insight and advice. When I read some of the comments I was taken back by all the judgment and well yeah, wrath. That is why I wanted to know where everyone was from.. Something didn’t add up. There should be more sites/blogs that discuss this topic (that are not linked to magazines.) This is also what lead me here as well. I know some woman ( some recently divorced, some never single) and they are looking for actual advice. Dear Abby meets Dear Adam type of thing..
Anyhow I have enjoyed ur posts. Too bad we can’t get together an make that happen..
JDM says:
I thought it was people giving woman insight and advice. When I read some of the comments I was taken back by all the judgment and well yeah, wrath.
Here’s an insight…the lack of judgments and outrage in the past are why so many women are in the fix currently under discussion. You want advice that offers no judgments, but that isn’t what is going on with the men they might want to marry. They may not articulate that, but they will walk away, and explaining why this is happening is important.
Lol.. Hence, a womans insight / advice show lack of judgement and therefore impotent.
@JDM
I assume you are talking about my comments, as those are primarily to what ctgvip responded.
When you say judgment do you mean some sort of penalty, or an assessment of the situation? People are free to go onto whatever course of life they prefer. You seem to be upset that you and others are not made to feel nice. Let’s put aside the question of whether or not you ought to feel nice, and move onto the important question of: How is that helpful? Making decisions based upon what feels nice is what got us into trouble. There’s very little doubt that extra-marital sex feels nice.
There are no penalties except that you can’t unread what you’ve read. I’m taking advantage of that. If it makes you feel nice, you can think of it as marketing.
Or Game.
Seriously guys?
Not a single person i know ( including my 22 year old brother) hesitate if not, as a rule they won’t go further if they find out the other is either a virgin ( well then it stops dead in its tracks) or has only slept with a few people. (Post college) I even knew some girls in college that couldn’t give away their virginity. Guys found/ find it creepy and get scared to be the 3rd person to be slept with. . ( for the record I have recently heard or read someplace that the average age of a girl to loose her virginity used to be 16/17, and in the past decade apparently about 90%of girls under 14 have had sex!)
Who wants a partner who can’t bring something to the table? ( sexually or otherwise) I know it was a top priority for me, and yeah I had sex before I got married, who wouldn’t. Granted don’t go giving the milk to every farmer that is thinking about buying your cow ( but is more interested in the free samples of milk) However if u find someone who is really interested in buying the cow, ya gatta make sure they like the milk!
I guess bringing a 23 year old 5/6 to the table works more for you somehow.
An ex-client, and now good friend of mine does it all the time. He’s 43 great looking, great job in entertainment, obviosuly weathy, and doesn’t date over 24. know why he does it ” They get complicated past 24. At 25/26 they start wanting things, nagging you.. Ehhh .. I just can’t”
I get it, I really do. I cringe and I laugh, and go about my day.. Not my thing, just creeps me out.
Let me apologize. Just like a woman to say one thing and do another. I shouldn’t have re-engaged. I forgot there was no point in me doing so. You don’t care about how I see things or how I have seen things, or what I believe to be true. Or any of the opinions I have posted for advice. I’ll stop and disengage again.
I did however glance at some of the first few posts back in April 2011. Those were great. Honest, real, blunt in some ways, and just condescending enough. Where the posts have gone from there, who set the new tone of this site? I don’t know that.
JDM says:
Who wants a partner who can’t bring something to the table? ( sexually or otherwise)
So there isn’t a problem then is there? Why all the complaining about ‘Peter Pan’s’, marriage strikes, and men refusing to commit these days by so many women?
Most women these days are certainly qualified according to your sexually experienced standard and yet more and more men are headed for the exits.
@JDM
There you have it folks: The cow has spoken.
@ Michael
Excellent.
I think that is a very clear way to communicate the cold hard facts of the situation that many women / men may find themselves in if they engage in certain types of behavior. It’s direct without the moral high horse or heaping shame on anyone, which I argue is un-necessary and counterproductive.
If the idea is to try to advance ideas that will improve men and women’s lives and communities, it doesn’t make much sense to me to for people (in general) to let loose with comments that intentionally or not, cut people down and close them down to different ideas.
I don’t think you help someone who is fat and looking online for answers on how to become thin –by calling them names and talking about all the bad decisions they have made and how they have ruined their bodies and no one will find them attractive in the future …
I think all you can do is educate people as to the kinds of habits that result in the situation they have found themselves in and give them information that will help them to a better place. They do what they can do and hopefully pass the information along to people that can use it to prevent the kinds of problems they are having.
*** I kind of feel like there is a serious no-win game being played out there:
If the younger women are the most virtuous by having had fewer years to make “bad” decisions (JDM just shared an appalling statistic about 90% of 14 years olds having had sex, which I hope is a type-o) and at the same time these young women are statistically the most probable to get file for divorce and drag you through the legal system, do most if not all roads lead to (post-apocalyptic) rome?
Are men left to decide if they want a woman who was on that carousel that everyone keeps talking about; however, is 300% less likely to divorce him and crush him in family court -or- play rush and roulette with the younger and more virtuous woman that has been raised on a healthy diet of house wives of whatever and other reality tv and rag mags are out there.
Seems like you are just asking what barrel of the shotgun someone wants.
Cane.
The Farner sells the cow.
I know you are sexually suppressed now because obviously (from previous comments) you can’t control yourself around things that “feel nice”, so you sustain all together. Don’t know any middle ground do you? Sorry about that problem you have. It seems like Jesus has really helped you out with that.
It may have been girls 14 and had sexual experiences. I heard it on the news I think as I was making breakfast. Last time I checked it was 90%of girls te age of 22. Which is why it shocked me. I remember my brother being 13 an what some of the girls were saying and doing and that was a while ago.
Regardless times have change and will continue to do so with technology, media, dual income house holds and divorce rates on the rise. I personally know 4 girls who have been divorced and 1 is remarried. There reasons vary. However I will never know what actually made them make that descion, an now they are getting back into “the game” and are incredibly frightened and timid for many reasons adding to it about how altered the playing field has become with media and technology having so much more weight then ever before.
@JDM
What is it you want? lol
First you were complaining about men speaking their minds … & now you’re literally having a conversation with yourself … lol
Address the questions & comments, & stop trying to condescend & change the subject
“Finally, we’ve discussed quite a few times on this blog that LTRs are not more moral than STRs, from the perspective of Christian morality (this is generally a Christian blog, even though many of the comments veer off of that) if they are sexually active (which they almost all are), because this is simply a different kind of fornication. It isn’t “worse fornication” if you are not “in a relationship”. That’s a fundamental premise of this blog, and it very much goes against the conventional societal wisdom you seem to have imbibed, but is quite in accord with Christian moral teaching about extra-marital sex.”
I do not believe that all sin is equal. Simply in terms of theology. I’ve already stated that a monogamous sexual relationship that ends is a sin, after all divorce is a sin, the adultery that follows is a sin. But it is not equivalent to a promiscuous ride on the carousel, where the sin is repeated, where stumbling blocks are knowingly put before many more people. Promiscuity involves more sinning than a monogamous relationship does.
If I may, is there any sin involved in a monogamous sexual relationship that stays monogamous? Is not sex in marriage better ‘fornication’? Is the sin in divorce due to the sex that precedes it, or the adultery that follows?
As to pragmatics, it makes a big difference if a woman is monogamous in terms of std’s, exes to deal with, etc. etc. etc.. One other man is significantly different than ten, fifty other men. A woman from an LTR is closer to a frivorced woman. Still carrying a lot of risk… but not as much risk as a true carousel rider in my opinion.
I’d never start a marriage with a divorced woman, given the choice, it just seems like a really bad gamble. But if my only choice was between a serial adulterer and a divorced woman… the latter is the better choice morally. They are not equally bad choices, even if they are both bad choices.
Nitpicking I guess. If a LTR woman was trying to be self-righteous looking down upon the carousel rider, and pretending that virtue was hers to wear… she’s unrepentant. Unrepentance is the equal sin they share. The fornication is of differing magnitudes in my understanding.
@JDM
Yes, I’m familiar with the transaction. Sex is the milk. You produce the milk. You’re the cow. Did your father actually sell you, or were you a free-range heifer?
You want me to be sexually repressed because it would validate your worldview. And since it hasn’t been a topic, all we can really know from your comment is that you’re curious about my sex life.
@ctgvip
Bingo.
You prefer Michael Singer’s explanation of the facts on the ground because it doesn’t sound like bad things are going to happen to decent people…until you really think about it, and then it seems like we have to pick which barrel of the bad things shotgun.
The truth is that bad things are going happen to bad people, and that nice, non-judgmental way of stating the situation lulls a person into believing that the way they currently exist and operate is ok. It’s not. The fear of bad things is the beginning of seeking good things.
What’s more: Caroline didn’t ask for advice in the comment to which I responded. She asked if she should be considered a carousel rider for engaging in pre-marital sex for eight years.
I laid out why the answer was yes. I did not say she was the worst carousel rider, or even equal to, but clearly stated yes she was, and why.
More to the point: She came here to throw other 30yo women into harm’s way by asking is to compare her version of eight years of extra-marital sex against other women’s variants. This is the part, in case you missed it:
Do you not see the framing of this argument dressed up as a question? This is precisely why the nice way of stating the facts doesn’t work. Because all she wanted was to feel nice; not to actually get better, or to find a decent guy. She wants emotional ammo to use against the impending sense of doom that is falling upon her; when it is precisely that fear that could break through the narcissistic tendencies that our society constantly trains us in.
You’ve fundamentally misunderstood the situation, ctgvip.
Cane Caldo says:
You’re logic and presentation of same are well done, cheers!
Concise, clear and you hit the nail on the head….women want to hear sweet nothings, they want to be sold a bill of goods, they crave a daddy to tell them it’s all better. Isn’t this “game”?
These gals damaged themselves by their own conduct and simply want to be validated. If this isn’t Eve in the garden, what is?
JDM et al, this blog can’t whitewash your life, but what we hope to do is steer your younger sisters and daughters onto a better path. You too can help and it starts with accepting logic, facing uncomfortable facts, owning your past and advising others not to go there.
Earlier someone was barking at me because I wrote a post that said I now understood this to be a Christian blog and that the posts were starting to make sense to me from that perspective. Then I got a couple darts thrown at me about how this was not a Christian blog, it was a secular blog and my calling it a Christian blog was somehow trying to undermine the blog.
I don’t know what it is and I am getting a little exhausted by the process. Maybe Dalrock will weigh in or maybe he won’t, it doesn’t sound like there is much upside for him either way.
I never said that bad things were not happening and I am not trying to sugar coat anything. It is possible to give people the hard, cold reality of their situation without being a pompous dick in the process. That is what this conversation is about and what it has always been about from where I sit … There is always a way to tell someone what they need to hear without being a dick.
If this is a religious blog, I think it should have an indicator tucked into the headline (e.g., Advice to a woman in her 30s looking to marry a Christian man) because I have a feeling that a lot of women and other people come in here believing that this is a secular discussion, and then take a double barrel shotgun blast of fire and brimstone when they are looking for help, information, and perspective. And yes… many people can start that long and tedious process by asking questions intended to make themselves feel a little better about the things they feel awful about inside.
Regarding the two options or barrels, you missed it, but I was pointing out that the options you have described for men such as yourself are pretty rough: you have a 50% chance of being made a sinner when your 23 year old non-carousel rider divorces you after a few years, or you can take the 10% chance of being made a sinner yourself when the 35 year old former carousel rider (your term, not mine) divorces you, but to get a high probability of success for your marriage you have to swallow that bitter pill of knowing a woman her age probably has a pretty sizable sexual past.
So do you go for much higher odds of being forced into sin in a situation which “feels” much better and is much more comfortable at the outset (23 year old), or do you go with a much lower chance of being forced into sin, even though there was probably sin galore before you got into the picture and it doesn’t “feel” nearly as good at the outset (35 year old)?
Here is something to think about: if you marry the carousel rider you have a 10% chance of being made a sinner (much better than 50%), but you also get an amazing 90% chance of keeping 100% of your shit, such as your children, house, car, cash, business, investments, boat, dog, etc.
So, do you swallow your pride and take the 90% chance of staying married and not having your life ripped apart, or do you take the coin toss with 50% odds of being forced into sin and having your life torn apart? I am sure someone is going to hit me with a flamethrower on the statistics, yes, generalizations, but try focus on the framework.
And, yes, when it works, I don’t think there is anything much better than a 23 and 28 year old couple starting their life together and staying that way forever.
Gentlemen, may you keep your odds of success high, sins low, and bank accounts flush…
I wish you to the best.
@ctgvip
This is not a Christian blog, per se, and I don’t speak for Dalrock, but only try to present the universal, scriptural view of sex and marriage.
But I am a convinced Christian, and exuberant about it. What I say is considered rude because the materialist view is dominant in our society; even in church. And even though you believe yourself to be tolerant: I really sounds like an asshole to you. That’s half our problem.
I understood what you were saying. From a purely materialist standpoint your shotgun barrels argument makes sense. (I ended my guest post here with essentially the same argument.) I just know the materialist standpoint is useless, and so I cut the bull. I find that using materialist examples tends not to move people to a Christian perspective, but to confirm them in their materialism; which is ultimately nihilism. This is the other half of our problem.
You want the solution to the problem of male-female relationships, but when I tell you that this is all revealed in Christ you can’t hear it. You think I’m just regurgitating holier-than-though church mumbo-jumbo (Your suspicions are not unfounded as churches and Christians are full of mumbo-jumbo. That’s what materialism does. “Things just work.”) but what I’ve said here is fairly rare in Christian circles, and they are said for your betterment.
The best to you (and Caroline, and JDM) but may you never be satisfied until you find that best.
Hey, you sound like a nice guy in this message. I respect your beliefs, it’s just gets a little out of balance when one guy wants to ask questions to find new ideas, challenge them, form new ideas, etc., and the other has the skeletion key to all the locked cabinets in the universe and questioning that premise could compromise his salvation. Our respective rewards and incentives are entirely out of balance, to tell you the truth I am surprised we made it this far.
Let me be clear, I am not saying you don’t have it all figured out, you very well may and you could be absolutely correct. I respect your beliefs, but for me, I just try to implement the 30 day waiting period before making any major life decisions based upon blog postings.
Thanks for the message and be well.
@ctgvip
On the contrary…well, I’ll address that another time. Ask yourself: Do I really read like a guy who doesn’t question the premises?
I don’t have it all figured out. Somebody showed me where the key was, and I just keep using it because it keeps working.
The waiting period is not a terrible idea. Anyways: He’s God. Our timelines are utterly mutable.
ctgvip says:
Here is something to think about: if you marry the carousel rider you have a 10% chance of being made a sinner (much better than 50%), but you also get an amazing 90% chance of keeping 100% of your shit, such as your children, house, car, cash, business, investments, boat, dog, etc.
Actually there isn’t that significant of a difference.
You would have to wait until they are about 50 or 55 to get a 90% chance.
And then there’s this…
At age 35 about three-quarters of women will be able to conceive without treatment, but by age 40 only half will, says Owen Davis, M.D., director of the IVF Program at Cornell Medical Center in New York City. By age 45 it’s under 10 percent.
A lot of men are coming to the rather obvious conclusion that it’s not really a wise decision to marry at all. You are essentially arguing that men should wait until after 35 when women have limited options for remarriage before taking the plunge. If that is what a man is facing as far as the implied quality of wife, then why bother at all? Why put everything on the line for so little return?
@ctgvip
Thank you.
It is simple law of cause & effect. It applies to everything and everybody regardless or race, gender, religion, social class, and is scientifically proven
You did hit the nail on the head – simply present the facts (educate) and hope a person makes the right choice.
It is absolutely delusional to expect anything else. It removes all responsibility. Much like forks make people fat or smoking causes cancer but it isn’t their fault despite my buying cigarettes and smoking them.
For some odd reasons the majority of evangelical Christians actually think this doesn’t apply to them because “G_D” forgives the sinner.
Of course G_D forgives if a person repents.
However, HE doesn’t stop the consequences. Otherwise, think there would be a blockbuster world wide conversion to Christianity of cigarette smokers and many other bad habits or evil behavior. Imagine if a convicted murder would be freed from jail because they asked “Jesus” for forgiveness. A bit ridiculous and shallow in thought imo.
Regarding the original thread of “Advice to a woman in her 30s looking to marry. ” The outcome is predictable. For those guarding their chastity ie “exceptions to the rules” – they should do just fine since they are conditioned and sensitive to those just like themselves”.
For the those that didint guarded their chastity ie ( general rule of thumb) – their outcome is quite predictable – they will become involved with “someone just like themselves”)
The all encompassing panacea is to think one can have their cake and eat it too while covered with hot fudge, whipped cream, and cherries, and not work out and not gain weight.
~Shalom
I would suggest that my comment at 11.30 on the 25th February 2013, (wherein I discuss Caroline – the girl who had the same guy from the age of 20-28) should be re-read, especially by new-girl CTGVIP, who may have missed it.
Why by the way is it that – given the almost infinite size of the Internet – one tiny blog in a far-flung corner thereof, and in particular one thread with any numbers of disparate commentators should drive people (women) into a state of apoplexy just because of something someone wrote weeks and months ago. That is a rhetorical question of course. So long as just one male fails to toe the party-line Big Sister will feel justified in having a hissy-fit of outraged entitlement. 🙂
@OPUS
New Girl?
I am a 35 year-old, never married, 6’5″ tall, 240 lb, male that lives in Texas. Compared to Los Angeles or New York, Dallas is heaven on earth for a reasonable social life.
Nonetheless, it is doubtful I will ever be married for all the reasons discussed on this board, but I am not upset at women about it. I am naturally curious about this topic and am trying to get to the bottom of why there are a lot of people that seem really pissed-off.
The cat is out of the bag with respect to serious male / female problems in our culture. Divorce, values, ethics, morals, etc., it is a state of decline and the patient is probably going to have to hit rock bottom before accepting treatment.
The genie is not going back in the bottle anytime soon, so have a drink, make a buck, and be happy you dodged a bullet because millions of women opted never to fire a shot.
As far as I am concerned, guys should be buying half of these women cocktails for sparing you the anguish of being dragged through family court.
I call bullshit on the above. No Texan could possibly still be up at 3.17am I’d suggest your place of residence is almost certainly somewhere in Europe – given the time difference. As for the height and weight, isn’t that a cliche for all Texicans?
Anyway, previously, the only people who came to this thread to make it all about themselves were women. If you are not of that sex, you certainly give a more than passable impersonation thereof – with your call for non-judgement whilst indulging in the very opposite. Taking over – high-jacking – a blog, is, if I may say so, at the least, selfish – but thanks for the shaming.
They Call Me Tom:
Promiscuity involves more sinning than a monogamous relationship does.
Not really. Fornicating with the same man for eight years isn’t any more morally upright than fornicating with different men for eight years.
You might argue that one does more overall damage to individuals and society than the other; but if so, the ranking isn’t obvious. If anything serial monogamy has probably done more damage than one-time hookups, because few people are confused about the latter being morally upright behavior.
Serial monogamy is the preferred female form of promiscuity; but it isn’t inherently better than any other form of promiscuity. You are perpetuating the myth that it is.
A rewrite of a JDM comment above
and are incredibly frightened and timid for many reasons adding to it about how altered the playing field has become with media and technology and the women having so much more weight then ever before.
and are incredibly frightened and timid for many reasons adding to it about how altered the playing field has become with media and technology and the women having so much more weight then ever before.
Take two
nevermind…..html hell
Opus, I wasn’t born a Texan, but I “got here as fast as I could” as the saying goes. I have been up all night quite a few times. It happens.
VIP:
“Nonetheless, it is doubtful I will ever be married for all the reasons discussed on this board, but I am not upset at women about it. I am naturally curious about this topic and am trying to get to the bottom of why there are a lot of people that seem really pissed-off.
The cat is out of the bag with respect to serious male / female problems in our culture. Divorce, values, ethics, morals, etc., ”
“It is less that men are pissed at women; as it is men are pissed in general.
Most of the men commenting on and around the manosphere were rule-followers. They did what they were told. They were explicitly told that if they followed the rules, they would be able to find a woman, marry her, and enjoy marital bliss. They listened to all those in authority over them: parents, teachers, Scout leaders, civic authorities, counselors. They followed those rules: Be nice. Be yourself. Give her what she wants. Apologize. Pedestalize. Supplicate. When those failed, they were told that they weren’t doing it enough, and needed to double down. Be nicer. Give her MORE of what she wants. Apologize more. Pedestalize more. Supplicate more.
A big part of this is that these men were never taught anything true about women, their natures, or their true attraction triggers. Making matters worse is that women in general are notoriously bad at articulating what they find attractive, especially to men. Either they don’t know; or they know and can’t put it in words; or they know and lie about it to avoid the appearance of bitchiness and shallowness.
Another big part of why men are pissed is that they come here, learn about Game, and then try it out on dates, or girlfriends, or wives, and discover that it works – in most cases, spectacularly well. So not only were men not told the truth; they discover everyone from their early life was either (1) woefully ignorant and hopelessly incompetent; or (2) malevolently lying to, defrauding, and deceiving them.
Another big part of why men are pissed is that Game and the truths taught here absolutely decimate their pretty lies and illusions about the true nature of women. They learn women can be as base, sinful, shallow, and evil as they are. They learn all women have it in them to cheat, and that many will do so under the right conditions. They learn that as much as all men are essentially selfish horndogs who want to bang everything they see; all women are essentially ruthlessly self-interested, solipsistic, and hypergamous.
A fourth big part of why men are pissed is that they learn that while men are reviled for wanting sex from their wives; women are supported and cheered on for divorcing their husbands for “unhappiness” or “growing apart” or “just don’t want to be married anymore”. Men simply want what their wives promised them; but women are allowed to break that promise and get cash and prizes for doing so. Men are hated for working hard; while women are told “you go grrrrrl” for being career girls. Men are hated (at least publicly) for being sexually successful with many women; but it’s a woman’s by-God BIRTHRIGHT to sleep with as many hot men as possible and delay marriage until the very last minute. Men are hated and sued and fired from jobs for awkward sexual approaches; but women are encouraged to be as sexually aggressive as they want and pursue the hot alpha men in the workplace. Men are stifled and controlled and muzzled, on pain of arrest or lawsuit or criminal process. Women can literally say and do anything they want, whenever and wherever they want, with or to whomever they want, with impunity; and nobody has any right to judge them for it. The entire culture, from top to bottom, every institution, even churches, is complicit in this.
Another big reason is that there are a lot of men who have lost everything in a divorce – lost wives, families, children, property, and enormous amounts of money – all because their wives simply didn’t want to be married anymore. Women file or cause to be filed something on the order of 80 to 90% of all divorces. Men are pissed at the sheer injustice of the system which permits an ex wife to continue receiving an income stream from an ex husband. She retains all the material tangible benefits of marriage and none of the obligations; while he retains all the obligations and none of the benefits.
Any questions?
Sounds like 30+ women need advice on how to coax divorced men back into the dating game. If that can be done. I’m sure there is a blog out there that addresses this, considering that by 30 that is a big part of the dating pool.
@ Opus
This will be my last comment on this message board. It will include what is possibly one of the dumbest sentences ever written, which is in a quote from you.
“I call bullshit on the above. No Texan could possibly still be up at 3.17am I’d suggest your place of residence is almost certainly somewhere in Europe – given the time difference. As for the height and weight, isn’t that a cliche for all Texicans?”
Of the 26 million people that live in Texas, or 8% of the population of the United States, it is not possible that one person is awake at 3:17 AM? That has to be on the shortlist for
Is that a racial epithet that you threw in there at the end for good measure? Obviously you are trying to knock Texans by inferring that they have some connection to Mexicans, which you clearly hold in extremely low regard.
So, Opus, good luck with things, l will bow out of this discourse here at the intersection of stupidity & racism.
@ctgvip
I’m a big ol’ honky Texican myself, and I didn’t detect a hint of racism in Opus’ comment.
We should do a meet-up of Dalrockian Texicans.
Speaking of Dalrock: Somebody tried to disparaged him as “Dalie” the other day, and I thought that was awesome. “The Dalie Rocka!”
–better–
The Dälie Röcka.
Here’s another racial epithet. A Texacano! Yes, I know, not as good as the Opus but I’m trying my best here!
I’m an over 30, post divorce single man. the only thing that could possibly coax me back into marriage is if our laws mimic islamic martial laws.
This is going to get lost in the deluge of comments, but, oh well.
Dalrock wrote:
“Which is it; does passion and chemistry decline as you know the person better, or does it grow? And who is to blame when she later divorces the man she never really felt attraction for when she discovers that “she doesn’t love him anymore”?”
Attraction usually increases for a woman once she has sex with a man. However, it can decrease as she domesticates the man. Which of these factors will ultimately be stronger in a relationship is not entirely certain. So, it’s a judgment call. Not every woman is going to be able to find someone who really turns her on.
I do not believe that all sin is equal. Simply in terms of theology. I’ve already stated that a monogamous sexual relationship that ends is a sin, after all divorce is a sin, the adultery that follows is a sin. But it is not equivalent to a promiscuous ride on the carousel, where the sin is repeated, where stumbling blocks are knowingly put before many more people. Promiscuity involves more sinning than a monogamous relationship does.
Eh, no.
Every sexual act in an extra-marital context is fornication. From the moral perspective, if you are in a sexually-active non-marital relationshipo, every time you have sex, it’s another sin of fornication. It isn’t only one sin of fornication because the repeated instaces of it are with the same person. It’s multiple instances of fornication, just as if there were multiple partners — fornication isn’t based on whether it is done consistently with one person or with many. Every individual extra-marital sexual act is fornication, whether or not it is done with the same person.
If I may, is there any sin involved in a monogamous sexual relationship that stays monogamous? Is not sex in marriage better ‘fornication’? Is the sin in divorce due to the sex that precedes it, or the adultery that follows?
Fornication is extra-marital sex. Married couples are not fornicating because theyare married. Yes, it’s a bright line rule. Divorce is a sin in and of itself, not relating to the marital sex which precedes it -0- which is not sinful – or whether sex takes place afterwards.
“I’m an over 30, post divorce single man. the only thing that could possibly coax me back into marriage is if our laws mimic islamic martial laws.”
I know that when a lot of divorced Christian men say they’ll never remarry, they don’t necessarily rule out ltrs involving intimacy. However, what happens if they meet a woman who they would like to become involved with, but she’s saving herself for marriage?
Will Dalrockian fare be served at a Texian Dalrockian meet up? I suggest, because of the cool labeling possibilities that said convention be held in Roca Pequena. Dalrockian Texicans who have sadly domiciled away from Texas could find that more central. It won’t help the Europeans much.
“However, what happens if they meet a woman who they would like to become involved with, but she’s saving herself for marriage?”
Well, if she’s really a marriage-minded woman, she’d break it off. I know I would as a marriage-minded woman. Now, I’m not sure if the man would change his mind or not, but, I can say as a woman, I’m less concerned with him changing his mind and more concerned about my welfare in a situation like this. The last thing the woman needs to do is try to change his mind. He may change if the woman is worth it, but since I can’t hold my breath that long, I’d be on to the next one.
I let her go her own way Perspective. You’re a darling but cannot understand what legal, state sponsored marriage does to a man. or what a bad deal most wives become
No woman is worth it. After all new makes and models hit the market everyday. Some even come with cool after market parts and body kits.
For those who were freaked out by JDM’s comment,
I’m not sure where she heard that, but it didn’t sound right so I did a quick google search and found that her statement is inaccurate.
From News Strategist’s American Sexual Behavior: Demographics of Sexual Activity, Fertility, and Childbearing,
Now it’s likely that JDM and I don’t run in the same circles, but my experience doesn’t line up with her comment,
I work almost exclusively with men and have had numerous conversations with guys about their thoughts on women and marriage. While a small number (I’d guess around 10%) said they wanted someone who was experienced enough to know what she was doing, the vast majority wanted to marry a virgin or a girl with very few previous partners. They might differ on what that number was or how they defined a slut (some putting a number on it and others describing it as having a transactional approach to sex or an attitude of giving it away easily to boost self-esteem) but they were virtually unanimous that they didn’t want to marry a slut however they defined that to be. Her comment about girls having a hard time giving away their virginity also doesn’t ring true for me; I have chosen to save sex for marriage so I could be biased and overly optimistic, but based on previous encounters and offers, I could lose my virginity very easily by this weekend if that were what I wanted to do. Finding a single Christian guy who wants marriage as well as kids and likes dogs has proven to be more challenging however….
“Fornication is extra-marital sex. Married couples are not fornicating because theyare married. Yes, it’s a bright line rule. Divorce is a sin in and of itself, not relating to the marital sex which precedes it -0- which is not sinful – or whether sex takes place afterwards.”
Then answer the root of my question… what is the difference between marriage that never ends in divorce, and a monogamous sexual relationship, that never ceases to be monogamous?
Questions have to be asked of the Sanhedrin from time to time. I hope I’ve made it clear that I’m not a moral relativist. My argument in fact is quite the other way around. If slapping someone in the face is the same as murdering them, simply because both are sin, then you are no longer being objective. They are two different things. Both sins, but different sins. Neither sin righteous, but different sins. Can you explain to me how the sins are identical to one another, other than their being sins?
@They Call Me Tom
That they’re not married.
If you can’t see this, it’s because you have bought into the idea that having sex is one sin because you equate the sex with the relationship–a relationship based on nothing but emotions. If a man and a woman date and have sex every day for a year–because they “feel in love”– they commit 365 instances of extra-marital sex. You’re counting it as one sin even though it’s a sustained pattern of sin just as bed-hopping is.
If a woman has a one night stand every Saturday–to fulfill her “emotional needs”–then she only commits 52 instances of extra-marital sex.
These are both idolatrous versions of witchcraft to use physical things to satisfy spiritual desires.
Somewhere in the recesses of your brain you have the idea that sexing a man into marriage is a legitimate strategy. You may think it’s not optimal, but you can understand it. That’s wrong.
“I let her go her own way Perspective. You’re a darling but cannot understand what legal, state sponsored marriage does to a man. or what a bad deal most wives become”
But I do understand and it sucks. I can also understand why a lot of men would be adamant about not wanting to go through with it-especially if they’ve already been divorced. However, (and you may think this sounds naive and unrealistic) but aren’t there ways to work around it? For example, if he’s more discerning (not trying to place blame on him, but some extra precaution always helps) about who he decides to marry and share his life with the second time around, wouldn’t his marriage have a better chance? And for the legal side of things, if he’s concerned about losing all (or most) of what he’s worked for, couldn’t he do a pre-nup to protect himself financially?
“No woman is worth it. After all new makes and models hit the market everyday. Some even come with cool after market parts and body kits.”
You’re a darling too,(lol,Yankee trying out the Southern charm),but are we talking about cars or people?
Perspective
The problem is by law. No man has right not to be taken to the cleaners. Any woman can do a man in by law and there is nothing that he can legally do about it. There is no right woman to marry. There is no wife, only a legal gun to his head. Ton does care about any of that frivolous shit what his statement was is a change in the law would make him consider marriage. It is in the law. As a woman a smart move to “save” marriage (and this goes for you wannabe Christians actual churchians calling yourself traditional saving civilization) would be rather than play pick the right woman games have the laws of misandry removed .
@ Novaseeker
That is quite possibly one of the screwier comments I’ve read. It doesn’t matter if its one partner or multiple partners? That’s ridiculous. Of course it does.
Hey darling, my 1st wife was a virgin. She went to church twice a week, and choir practice once a week. Her family is stable, no history of divorce, she was a state ranked swimmer, low maintenance and could give sugar lessons on being sweet.
All that was gone by year 7 of our marriage. I choose much of what the Christian manosphere says to chose. It did no good, and no matter who a man marries, a man has no legal protection or standing once he signs the contract.
I offered the girl vows between me, her and God. Initially she was good with that but succumbed to peer pressure. The main argument being with out the contract she would be out of luck if we went our own ways. She craved legal advantages over me. This girl was a pharmacist with no school debt. She’d not need my money if we split…
You are naive darling, but it’s part of your charm. Pre nups are worthless. Judges throw them out everyday. Greyghost has the right of it, as he often does. On paper at lest, I am a high value man and I am off the marriage market unless the laws change.
Cars, women, women, cars…. I use terms men understand
That is quite possibly one of the screwier comments I’ve read. It doesn’t matter if its one partner or multiple partners? That’s ridiculous. Of course it does.
Not morally it doesn’t. It’s all fornication — each act is a separate act of fornication. Your extra-marital “monogamy” is irrelevant. Cane said it quite well a few posts up, to wit:
If a man and a woman date and have sex every day for a year–because they “feel in love”– they commit 365 instances of extra-marital sex. You’re counting it as one sin even though it’s a sustained pattern of sin just as bed-hopping is.
If a woman has a one night stand every Saturday–to fulfill her “emotional needs”–then she only commits 52 instances of extra-marital sex.
Then answer the root of my question… what is the difference between marriage that never ends in divorce, and a monogamous sexual relationship, that never ceases to be monogamous?
It’s as Cane said — they’re not married.
The issue, I think, is a misunderstanding of what Christian morality really is in this area. It’s not that “Christianity emphasizes monogamy”. It’s rather than Christianity holds that all sex outside of marriage is morally illicit and sinful. Whether it is in the context of a monogamous fornicating relationship, or a promiscuous fornication relationship, it’s all fornication. The “monogamy” of a non-marital sexual relationship does not make it moral, or any more moral, than a promiscuous series of sexual encounters. The key to Christian morality in this area is not monogamy, per se, but marriage. Sex is only morally licit between married people of the opposite sex. Therefore if people are not married and having sex, it is immoral — each act is immoral, and it isn’t rolled into one act because it’s in the context of a relationship. And therefore if people are married, each instance of them having sex with someone to whom they are not married is also immoral as extra-marital sex. Of course that requires monogamy among married couples, but outside of marriage, monogamy is of no moral significance — it’s all fornication.
Can you explain to me how the sins are identical to one another, other than their being sins?
What I just wrote, and also what Cane wrote. Any sex outside of marriage is fornication and sin. Any sex. Whether it is with a regular monogamous lover, or with a ONS. It’s all fornication. Non-marital monogamy is of no moral significance — the sex is still immoral fornication to the same degree as ONS sex is. It’s the same sin — sex outside of marriage. The exact same sin.
The confusion arises from the idea that the key is monogamy. It isn’t. The key is marriage. For the culture as a whole, outside of Christian moral teaching, it very much is the case that monogamy per se has been elevated to a higher status — that’s what our society teaches, and what therefore most people believe. It isn’t Christian moral teaching, however. As this blog has pointed out time and time again, extra-marital monogamous relationships are effectively the same as promiscuity, just the preferred female version of extra-marital sex. It’s all the same sin, however — the sin of having sex with someone other than one’s opposite sex spouse.
Just to clarify — among people who are married, of course, having sex with someone to whom they are not married is also adultery, which is an even more serious sin than the very serious sin of fornication.
Just to add to what Nova said:
And serial monogamy is often confused as being as “moral” as marriage or just a little bit less moral, because of the “monogamous” nature of the serial relationships.
Boyfriend and girlfriend are together and date in college for a year or so. Their dating includes sex. They are sexually exclusive with each other, and “accountable” to each other, and go through the motions of trust and emotional intimacy and commitment.
This is where the confusion is, and why it is widely believed LTRS and serial monogamy carry less moral culpability. It is because the LTR has the appearance of marriage, and many of its accoutrements and benefits: sexual fidelity; implied trust; commitment to the relationship’s growth and continuation; responsibility and accountability.
Where the comparison breaks down is that the participants are “committed”, but not really; because the LTR exists only in whatever form the two agree on at any given time; and lasts only as long as both of them want it to. The LTR’s contours and characteristics can be changed, abolished, redefined or renegotiated at any time by either or both of them, without explanation or recourse. And if one of them wants to end the LTR, it’s over. All he or she has to say is “I don’t want to do this anymore”, and just like that, a months or years-long investment is gone in an instant. Poof.
Marriage, at least biblical marriage, is different. Its contours and characteristics are defined by an external source (God, if you like) and imposed on both parties, who agree to the terms. And marriage is for life and can be ended only in the most egregious circumstances. Even if it is ended, the participants are almost never free to enter into another marriage (at least not spiritually).
@Zippy, Nova
Not really. Fornicating with the same man for eight years isn’t any more morally upright than fornicating with different men for eight years.
Minor quibble. Since the above conforms to the normative pattern more closely I would argue that there is a qualitative difference. However, both our still morally wrong and undermine the fabric of society. It is the difference between a mass murder say and the one who only murders one man. The mass murder is qualitatively different but also wrong.
I get both Nova’s and Cane’s argument that one LTR is actually a conglomeration of errors. However, there is qualitative difference in sin based on its conformance to the pattern set by God.
@Ton,
No woman is worth it. After all new makes and models hit the market everyday. Some even come with cool after market parts and body kits.
Which is a completely un-Christian perspective. I don’t care if you are married by the state, but I do care that any sex has the approval of God. A marriage of _some_ form has to exist. And like all good things women take work. Lot’s of work. See Cane’s, I think apt, comparisons using the word “husbandry”. It is not for nothing that men are cursed with the “sweat of our brow”. And that sweat includes women.
We’ve been working through the trails that women bring for a very, very, very long time. This did not start in the 60’s and it will not end until the coming of Christ.
@They Call Me Tom,
Then answer the root of my question… what is the difference between marriage that never ends in divorce, and a monogamous sexual relationship, that never ceases to be monogamous?
One would have trouble doing better than Cane’s short quip, but I’ll join and say that marriage in Christian terms has always been seen as a “three fold cord” (cf Ecc 4:12). You are also probably Protestant so lack anything approaching a sacramental understanding of the world. But marriage is an act of God that He preforms physically through the function of His people (i.e. “Church). If you just “live together forever” you have not participated in that act. You are not married. You are living in sin.
At which point I’ll defer to Cane’s able dismantling of your presumptions on relationships which Nova follows closely on and to which I can add nothing of value.
@Deti,
Even if it is ended, the participants are almost never free to enter into another marriage (at least not spiritually).
Another minor quibble, all sides agree death does allow for remarriage. Even if some view this as creating a very unusual circumstance that should not normally exist (I _believe_ some Orthodox for example use a penitential rite even in this context…will have to double check…someday…).
Good women… next stop the twilight zone
Damn fingers.. what women are not worth is being subjected to the current law. I know you and the other Bible thumpers here are on team woman, but your appeals to men to become legal slaves to the state and women is ridiculous. Good luck with it but you should work on some one else besides me
And your appeal to join team woman for God will not work either.
God said he looks at the heart, mind and motives in his perfect judgment. If a man enters a LTR with a real heart felt commitment, but without the legal sanction of the Govt, and the woman now has real consequences for bailing (no cash and prizes)…win/win…yes?
Oh Buck that will never do. Got to feed men to the machineguns after all.
@GKC & Buck
These statements are essentially the same, and wrong. We have been given the law of marriage. Attempts to circumvent it are therefore proof that the heart, mind, and motives are in the wrong. Similarly, those circumventions are not then manifestations of conformity to the divine, but of a more total rebellion. They–and you here–are claiming it as some sort of moral high(er) ground. It’s marriage on their terms, as if they owned it.
On Zippy’s blog someone made a similar comment; that if it were his daughter he’d rather her shack up than sleep around. Well, who cares what he wants? All that tells me is the type of sin he prefers. I could infer that what he prefers is that it would be a sad fact if his daughter made herself god of her own marriage, but he’d find a way to deal with it if as long as he gets token godhood also, and she doesn’t embarrass him too bad.
Run of the mill bar sluts at least can claim everyone else was doing it. It’s better to be either hot or cold.
I suppose you could apply it to some hypothesis of two feral children on an island who have had, and will not have, contact with the outside world…but then marriage would be moot anyways.
If marriage isn’t about permanent monogamy (and monogamous sex), and it isn’t about love, what is it about?
How is a permanently monogamous relationship different from marriage?
I thank you for the clarification, if I understand you right, you’re saying that sex outside of marriage is the sin. I don’t disagree, I’ll have to read and reflect though on whether the two scenarios are identical.
I’ve had sex with one woman outside of marriage, now that I’ve done that I should turn myself into a PUA? Because the sin’s already been committed after all. My theological understanding is that it is a sin, a sin I’ve repented for, and that it can stop there and be different than a PUA. Not sinless of course, but different.
I guess my primary question is, what is ‘marriage’ in this context. if it’s not making a monogamous commitment before God, what is the correct definition?
“One would have trouble doing better than Cane’s short quip, but I’ll join and say that marriage in Christian terms has always been seen as a “three fold cord” (cf Ecc 4:12). You are also probably Protestant so lack anything approaching a sacramental understanding of the world. But marriage is an act of God that He preforms physically through the function of His people (i.e. “Church). If you just “live together forever” you have not participated in that act. You are not married. You are living in sin.”
I was raised Catholic. I’m in the wilderness at present, at least as far as a church designation is concerned. I’m about halfway through Summa Theologae. That said, my sacriments stopped at baptism. My theology doesn’t stop with the New Testament, so I doubt I’m a Protestant. Outside of the Catholic Church’s leadership, Catholocism is the closest to my own theology… as I don’t know much of Orthodox theology.
If marriage is an act of God, how can we distinguish between a permanently monogamous couple and a married couple?
If God is the third party and not man…
@They Call Me Tom
Several things.
1) It’s about committing to be with someone for life.
2) It’s about creating and raising children; secure in their parentage, heritage, and place in the world. I’m talking multiple generations of children: kids, grandkids, etc.
3) It’s about a man loving his wife, and the wife respecting her husband.
4) It’s a reflection of the Gospel and the Trinity
Because monogamy is only one part of marriage. Sure, it’s important, but it’s not the only thing. Take my number 2) from above: Is a single parent married because marriage is about raising children? Of course not. If something awful happens to you, and you can’t have sex, is the marriage over? No. If You can’t have children, is the marriage over? No. If, God forbid, one of you commits adultery, is the marriage automatically over? No. Finally, marriage is a commitment you hold yourself to; your spouse holds you to; the community holds you to; and your spouse holds you to. Monogamy describes the number of people you are having sex with. It does not define what a marriage is.
They’re not identical; they’re comparable. In some ways each is worse than the other, and for different people. For example: The woman who continually seduces one man she calls her “boyfriend” in the hopes of eliciting a marriage from him does more damage to that man, I think. It’s also a worse sin in this age because it’s given a level of respect that has a corrupting effect across society. It’s a “private sin and public pollution”; as Zippy says.
On the other hand, a woman who spends eight years hopping from bed to bed is widely experienced in men. She’s probably damaged herself more than the other woman has. However; everyone is clear that her behavior is not good; so the pollution effect is smaller than the monogamous one.
No, you should not become a PUA. Think about it this way: If you were ruined by sin, it was at some point before you actually slept with a woman. Even if we’re just considering sexual sin, lust is in the heart, not the loins. This is true of all men and women; even the ones who married as virgins, to virgins. Does that mean that such a man or woman should commit adultery because they’re already sinful? No. And if one of the did, should we in the community just shrug our shoulders and say, “Well, it was the natural course of things.”, and give that person the same respect we did before? No.
But, as you say, we can stop there and be new creations. You can kill the old sinful you, and be born again in Christ; putting on the New Adam. The one who will not take the fruit from Eve, but will subject her to God when she tempts him or sins against herself, because the New Adam loves God more than Eve, and because he loves (is committed to) Eve unto death.
Every Christian who marries, marries a sinful, lustful person. Marriage is choosing to make this particular one your responsibility because you just can’t stay away from them, and can’t stop wanting good things for them; the responsibility to lead if you are the man, and to obey if you are the woman. Both are in service to God and the other.
@ Novaseeker @ Cane:
The following comment from Cane was endorsed by Novaseeker:
A: “If a man and a woman date and have sex every day for a year–because they “feel in love”– they commit 365 instances of extra-marital sex. You’re counting it as one sin even though it’s a sustained pattern of sin just as bed-hopping is.”
B: “If a woman has a one night stand every Saturday–to fulfill her “emotional needs”–then she only commits 52 instances of extra-marital sex.”
B is a thousand times WORSE then A. Not to mention thousands times as dangerous. In all the ways that count as discussed on this website.
Anyone with a room temperature IQ can see that.
@Michael
Sin is not a matter of counts. It has all been paid for by Jesus Christ, everything we have done and will do, since all our lives were after He paid the full penalty.
Staying in it is quite harmful as a preacher I listen to notes since it allows Satan to eat our lunch and pop the bag! Staying in it is not good, but neither are many other sinful things in life. Sin often has a gradient in our impact on us and others, but it is all horrendous in the site of God. In that sense, one instance is just as bad as multiples. We need to walk in God’s forgiveness and transformation for both!
“Every Christian who marries, marries a sinful, lustful person.”
Agreed. I forget the exact wording of the passage (Jesus’ response to the Pharisees)… something to the effect of, ‘I gave you marriage to keep you from your (sin).’ I apologize if that’s a bad paraphrasing. I understand that, if that’s what you’ve been getting at, marriage being to love, what Christ’s resurrection is to a sinner.
As to your 1, 2, 3, and 4… 1, 2, 3, and 4 are what I expect of marriage. But I imagine every marriage at some degree has one of those compromised from time to time, and yet isn’t a divorce (of the permanent variety anyways). It is a sin against the marriage, but does not need to be an end to the marriage.
“On the other hand, a woman who spends eight years hopping from bed to bed is widely experienced in men. She’s probably damaged herself more than the other woman has. However; everyone is clear that her behavior is not good; so the pollution effect is smaller than the monogamous one.”
This makes enough sense. This issue is to you as suggestions of pacifism and redistribution are to me when associated with Christianity. You feel the need for special correction in this regard because this kind of sin is so seductive for lack of a batter word. Is that fair to say?
Of course Tom. I doubt any two humans have been married and not faced a variety of challenges. Welcome to life.
I would agree with Cane that you should not go the PUA route just because you messed up before. You should never seek future sin whatever you have done in the past.
@Michael ” Agree.
“B is a thousand times WORSE then A. Not to mention thousands times as dangerous. In all the ways that count as discussed on this website.”
Both actions carries negative consequences – that cannot be denied.
The > the number of partners. The > greater the number of negative consequences.
Better to avoid both.
@They Call Me Tom
Yes, that’s very similar.
Understand: I’m not telling you that you should get married, or that it’s better to get married. I’m saying that is only acceptable to have sex within marriage. Nor am I suggesting it’s better for you to find a woman who has had a bunch of partners. This whole time we’ve been speaking in the abstract; about how the types of sins of types of people affect themselves and others.
What Michael and Michael Singer are alluding to (well, I’m interpreting it as allusion, because otherwise I think they’re just wrong) is that it is generally NOT a good idea to marry a woman who is severely damaged, and they are right that the more partners a woman has the more damaged she will become.
What’s important is the exhibition of true repentance; whether from what we consider plain old vanilla sins like lust in the heart, or from a lifestyle of bed-hopping, or from the continual seduction of her boyfriend. True repentance is visible. The person rebukes their past sins, and lives differently than they did before.
Honestly, that can be hard to find. Living either of those lifestyles imprints upon the person a comfort with that sin; it confirms them in it. They’ll say things like: “All those mistakes made me the person I am today.”, and they’ll mean for you to take it as a good thing. Women who think of themselves as Christians and traditionalists are famous for this argument. It’s a lie of omission that is meant to prey upon your Christian duty to forgive. The truth is: Yes, they would be different. They would in fact be better having sinned less, as anyone would. If you hear such self-justifying statements: Beat feet, my friend.
If you keep the frame of reference that God truly knows what’s best–and that anyone who speaks against what is clearly said in scripture and Christian Tradition from the early church does not have the truth in them–then you will have a huge advantage over the rest of the world.
All the truly fundie groups still have this figured out; Amish; Mennonites; very traditional Catholics; Primitive Baptists; hardcore Pentecostals; hardcore Mormons; etc. They still marry young. They stay married. Their women wear skirts and aren’t tarted up. The parking lots of their houses of worship are filled with full-sized vans because that’s what you need to carry around eight kids.
For the record: I’m not a member of any of those, but the rest of us have clearly lost something they still have.
I will never walk into the pointless meat grinder that is marriage as the positive things people try to say about it doesn’t exist. What other men choose to do is on them, but I have seen to much to fall for the pro marriage propaganda team woman likes to spit
This isn’t a whinge, C C, but it just struck me (again) that
“All the truly fundie groups still have this figured out; Amish; Mennonites; very traditional Catholics; Primitive Baptists; hardcore Pentecostals; hardcore Mormons; etc. They still marry young. They stay married. Their women wear skirts and aren’t tarted up. The parking lots of their houses of worship are filled with full-sized vans because that’s what you need to carry around eight kids.”
are not a very congenial populace, from the perspective of the controlling interests of modern, globalist industrial society. The interests which live exclusively off the surpluses generated by the masses.
Wonder what the relative taxable/”entrepreneur-exploitable”/disposable income ratios of all those groups you listed is, compared to the allegedly anomie-ridden, child-free, amoral, free-spending and corrupt Western masses?
The fundies are tolerated (for the moment) because their numbers are too vanishingly small and irrelevant to impact the revenue-streams. Also they’re useless for waging serious War against rival polities with. I suspect if the numbers change (i.e. they achieve “success”), the attitude of the masters may also harden … I’ll be keeping a closer eye on developments in for example Israel, as an indication of the likely trend.
The parking lots of their houses of worship are filled with full-sized vans because that’s what you need to carry around eight kids.
A guy I graduated high school with has (with his wife) 12 kids. and they drive a 15 passenger van. He joked with my husband recently about “that little thing” we’re driving, a Suburban. They aren’t any of the groups you listed (maybe hardcore Pentecostal is a good characterization).
It was a very different conversation than we’re used to having with people who call our “little” truck a bus and go on about the fact that we have 5 kids.
Of course, like most modern Protestants, we drop the ball on some of your list of Christian family virtues, but we do our best.
@Cane “What Michael and Michael Singer are alluding to (well, I’m interpreting it as allusion, because otherwise I think they’re just wrong) is that it is generally NOT a good idea to marry a woman who is severely damaged, and they are right that the more partners a woman has the more damaged she will become”
First – the more partners a person has the greater the difficulty to pair bond. The damage is done and not “the more damaged she will become”. There are also emotional, mental, spiritual consequences – To suggest these consequences are for the positive or neutral is absurd. They are for the worse.
I think you are really missing something. G_D does forgive sin and we are to forgive others. However, G_D does not remove the consequences (there are exceptions – its HIS call).
If that is the case – what about a person who has contracted HIV during their sexual escapades ? G_D forgive them if they repent and “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” ~ Matt 3:8 and Luke 19.
Again, forgive yes but the consequence is not removed- this cannot be denied.
Ask any smoker, alcoholic, drug addict. The damage incurred to themselves and others is de facto.
For some odd reason – you are saying G_D removes the consequences. HE doesn’t. Here are some scriptural references.
– David & Bathsheba (David had a sword in house and Absolom did on the rooftops what David did in secret)
– Mose didn’t get to enter the promise land when he got angry and disobeyed
– Saul disobeyed and lost the kingdom and the dynasty
– Paul had religious Jews chasing him till he was imprisoned and beheaded
– CS Lewis point out “forever following consequences” in his book “Pilgrims Regress” aka the little brown girls.
In addition, there are multiple scriptures for marrying a person who is divorced. One commits adultery if they marry a person not properly divorced ”
“And anyone who marries a divorced woman also commits adultery.” ~Matt 5:32
One can marry a “repentant” ex -immoral, ex alcoholic, ex druggie or whatever.
However, to expect smooth sailing and to expect the spiritual, emotional, biological, mental issues to be completely erased is delusional and against the social / medical studies as well as the scriptures. I
Unless G_D does a “Hosea and Gomer”, I prefer to do what Paul suggested 1 Cor 7 to be single or equally yoked and I’ll pass on the druggie, carousel rider, alcoholic etc…
~Shalom
@Ton,
team woman
Getting accused of being on team woman is almost laughable. But whatever.
@Cane,
These statements are essentially the same, and wrong. We have been given the law of marriage. Attempts to circumvent it are therefore proof that the heart, mind, and motives are in the wrong. Similarly, those circumventions are not then manifestations of conformity to the divine, but of a more total rebellion. They–and you here–are claiming it as some sort of moral high(er) ground. It’s marriage on their terms, as if they owned it.
They aren’t the same. One claims that (a) is good. One claims that (a) is bad and of the same type of bad as (b) but of less consequence. The various forms of sexual immorality were granted different status by God in the Law. There is plenty of evidence for differentiating between seriousness of a given, admittedly, mortal sin. I’m not denying that it is both bad and deadly. Buck is denying both.
I suppose you could apply it to some hypothesis of two feral children on an island who have had, and will not have, contact with the outside world…but then marriage would be moot anyways.
First major props for properly using moot. The desert island scenario is covered at least in Orthodoxy as the couple themselves are ministers of the rite. Anglicanism and Catholicism have a bit of trouble with that. I imagine Zippy can give us the standard desert island scenario if he feels so inclined. I honestly don’t know what it is. I imagine most Protestants would accept a “vows before God” explanation even without feral children.
@Buck,
God said he looks at the heart, mind and motives in his perfect judgment. If a man enters a LTR with a real heart felt commitment, but without the legal sanction of the Govt, and the woman now has real consequences for bailing (no cash and prizes)…win/win…yes?
As I said above the involvement of the state is not required. The involvement of God is. An LTR is not marriage. In fact you are hopelessly conflating the states recognition of marriage as marriage. The State recognizes and attempts to order marriage for good reasons (such as inheritance) and has for a very long time. It however doesn’t properly _create_ it.
@Ton,
Oh Buck that will never do. Got to feed men to the machineguns after all.
This is extra funny given that I tacitly agreed up thread that the state wasn’t required. Snark without facts is so hopelessly feminine.
@They Call Me Tom,
How is a permanently monogamous relationship different from marriage?
A marriage is a relationship between three entities (and five persons!). You, your wife, and God. Marriage is for the sanctification (which is why Orthodoxy and Catholicism hold it to be a sacrament and “high” Church protestants hold it to be something _like_ a sacramental) of the married couple. It is directed for involving the couple in God’s creative act (that is children are intended). By involving us in God’s action it draws us closer to God.
I thank you for the clarification, if I understand you right, you’re saying that sex outside of marriage is the sin. I don’t disagree, I’ll have to read and reflect though on whether the two scenarios are identical.
I’ve had sex with one woman outside of marriage, now that I’ve done that I should turn myself into a PUA? Because the sin’s already been committed after all. My theological understanding is that it is a sin, a sin I’ve repented for, and that it can stop there and be different than a PUA. Not sinless of course, but different.
No one disagrees that you would be different because of the unmerited sacrifice of Christ and your desire to work with that sacrifice. However, a LTR is not a marriage. Full stop.
if it’s not making a monogamous commitment before God, what is the correct definition?
Absent any other considerations this is enough for most of Christianity. However as a Christian you are part of a community and not some lone wolf. “Do not forsake the gathering together of yourselves as some have the custom,” but instead join with the Church, God’s instrument and His people, in the creation of the marriage.
@Cane,
Ok. In what ways, and for whom?
You’ve talked about a woman’s “desoulment” when seeking love from multiple men. I’d argue that you are correct and that by separating herself from the normative God given behavior the most she is the most destructive of her nature. It isn’t so much the count, as to how she is attacking the type. Also in the process she spreads this pollution the most rapidly.
We seem to see this work out statistically. Women with higher n-count are more likely to attempt to dissolve the marriages they are in. They are also more likely to seek out weak husbands who they can create affairs with. The net harm is greater to society. Men likewise experience overall less joy when they bed hop.
There seems to be a very different attitude displayed for the woman who justifiably seeks a man to whom there is some argument she is owned marriage (cf. Judah and Tamar Gen 38) of which “shacking up” could be seen as a type and the seductress found in Proverbs who is singled out for special criticism by Solomon. Again, I’m not saying either is a gold standard.
So both men and women lose “more” from the seductress and less from the copy-cat of morality.
Actually now that I think of it I’d also use St. Paul’s speech to the Athenians. The altar to the Unknown God was bad, but it was superior to the Altar of Zeus. The attempt at the virtue is likewise better than not even trying.
@Ton,
I will never walk into the pointless meat grinder that is marriage as the positive things people try to say about it doesn’t exist. What other men choose to do is on them, but I have seen to much to fall for the pro marriage propaganda team woman likes to spit
Which would also be Dalrock of all people. I’m missing where anyone said, “it will be easy,” or “bad things won’t happen.” I’m also missing that bit about how so many marriages succeed for decades. I’m nearing 20 years now. Sure, it could all explode, but the probability is obscenely low. Overall it has been good for all of the people involved. Start looking beyond yourself and that failure. I hope you two are one day able to reconcile even if that is eventually in heaven.
@Tam the Bam,
Also they’re useless for waging serious War against rival polities with
They always have been. Always. Always will be too. Yet we continue to exist and even sometimes thrive. Amazing yes?
@Elsbeth,
We all do. Heaven knows my family fell short. We only have two children; and for very stupid reasons that are not very correctable now.
“We only have two children”
What’s wrong with “only” having 2 children? I’m guessing you wanted more?
Define succed?
Yes you and the others are on team woman as your purpose is to feed men into the grinder. For whatever noble sounding bullshit you use to justify it, that is what you and others call for
I do not shirk hard task, nothing in my life implies that but there must be some return on my effort. With women and marriage it’s all suffering and no positive return
Read and read some more, unhappy men, and shit wives is the common marriage story. Perhaps you are the one who should look beyond himself and his experience
@deti
Excellent summation. I hope that straightens out for the laayydies (bill burr voice) what the commenters here are coming from.
@Ton
Excellent comments. I am divorced and I say never again. You have been replaced as the head of the household, banished and little book, sexy moves or even the Good Book is going to change that.
You are all one phone call away from having a jackboot on your back and cuffs on your wrist.
Also, it occurred to me today for the first time that men don’t have to do shit to fix this situation. Honey you want to get married do you? Well then you and the wimmenz fix this society you upended and maybe I will think about it.
They broke it and it is up to them to fix.
@Ton
You are already married. You should not do so again anyways. No one is saying you should. I’m not saying anyone “should”. Nevertheless: Life in this world is a march towards the machinegun nests. You will die, and other people are going to take your stuff. Period. Keep your eye on what is beyond this world.
@Tam the Bam
If you look through my comments, you won’t find a single admonition that we should do anything to save society, or civilization. Indeed, we Christians count the destruction of Babel as good, and God saves His remnant in the manner that suits Him and for His purposes. Nothing any of us do will change that. I would LIKE to be part of that remnant, but that’s His business. I’m not God’s business partner, or His market. I’m His slave.
@Elspeth and GKC
Here, too. I’m just saying what I’ve been told. What I’ve done is worthless, and not the goal.
@Michael Singer
I didn’t say it would. If you marry someone, you’re choosing to accept those sins and consequences; as Christ took our sin and consequences on Himself. I’m not saying anything radical here: This is Ephesians 5. Ton called marriage “marching towards machineguns”. I’m fine with that. You and Ton and others might be absolutely baffled that I would WANT to march towards machineguns, but the answers is that I love my wife, and I’ve committed to protecting her; even taking the penalties that are rightfully hers onto myself. Furthermore, Ephesians 6 tells me how to equip myself so that those machinegun bullets do not kill me. I don’t fear those who can kill the body–as my wife could every night–but Him who can destroy my body and soul in Hell; who is the Lord.
For women: A good wife will keep this truth very close to her heart. She will be a source of her husband’s persecution; which the husband takes on her behalf.
No, I’m saying to marry is to agree to take those consequences on yourself. You are correct that there can be no atonement without blood sacrifice. Christ took our consequences (evil, pain, and death) and made the ulitmate and for-all sacrifice for our sins. Now we are called to go and do likewise. That means taking the consequences others onto ourselves. Can you stop an addict from being an addict? No, but that’s not what you’re called to do. You’re called to take those consequences upon yourself. It’s not fair, but by becoming a Christian you signed up for unfairness as surely as a soldier signs up to be shot at while everyone else stays home and parties…even your wife.
Now, if I were talking to the wife: this would be a whole different conversation. I find it’s almost useless to relate what that is to those who are faithless, because they IMMEDIATELY turn the expression of love into a quid pro quo. Immediately. See Adam: “The woman you gave me, gave me the fruit.”
So, God doesn’t remove those consequences. What does He do? He turns them into greater glory and honor than we can imagine.
Yes, David was shamed by Absolom. The same David who is the forebear of Christ Himself.
Yes, Moses was kept from Canaan (the Promised Land). This is the same Moses who met and conferred with Christ in the Transfiguration.
Saul never repented, and so his house was doomed.
Paul counted his persecution as glory, and of all the books of the New Testament, His are the most numerous.
It is a faithless gospel that teaches rejecting consequences.
@GKC
There is another party to marriage, and that is the community. So, not only are they the islanders ministers, but they are the community. The wedding is a community celebration. The bloodied sheets of hymen rupture are shown to the community. They are PART of the community. You can see it in the negatives too: When no-fault divorce was implemented–which was the communal rejection to judge the goodness of marriage–divorce became common. Ripping the thread of community from the tapestry of marriage unraveled the whole rug; right out from under out feet.
Some of you are going to interpret “community” as “the state”. It’s not the same, but the state can (and does) function as the community when no one else will. Government has not taken the place of God (as is so often wrongly said); it has taken the place of community because we’ve abandoned personal investment in other people’s marriages in preference for a heartless bureaucracy. If you don’t like the rampant divorce in your community, then you had better provide better community (and judgment) than the state does. It is up to us individually and collectively to keep marriage holy by individually and collectively holding each other to the standard.
Yes to everything but the last sentence. Women will not tell each other how they’ve been mistreated when a prima facie hookup doesn’t pan out as anything but a hookup. However; she will wail herself hoarse if she wanted it to be something more. And when one of those fornication relationships finally “works out”, she’ll say it was all for the best anyways. The inescapable message is that serial monogamy fornication is nominally bad, but is a legitimate path to marriage. Don’t believe me. Read the so-called Red Pill women’s blogs.
I’m baffled that you can’t see this. I’m not talking about the pollution of the sin of lust, but the pollution of the sin of pride; of self-godhood. Lust is much easier on the flesh to repent from than pride. “It burns us, Precious!”
shinzaemon
Also, it occurred to me today for the first time that men don’t have to do shit to fix this situation.
That is the fix and how to “SAVE” civilization.
These marriage traditionalist guys are all so horrified that men that don’t marry are going to destroy the world. If it is so great fuck your wife and enjoy your family and look down your nose at the savages.
Chesteron
Every man here knows and had an idea it was not easy. But lie you are telling is marriage for a man is a criminal act by law. To be enforced when the wife says she isn’t happy. And you know this and have chosen a path as a man as others have under the guise of churchianship to not do anything to change that. But rather let the men here know how bad they are for seeing the elephant in the room and dare saying anything about it.
MGTOW and the PUA along with criminals are going to do your job for you. They are going to bring the consequences to the female imperative you churchians were too cowardly to bring. And the standard churchian response is to spare themselves and serve up more young men to feed the beast so they can live the comfortable churchian life dress up with Christian righteousness.
Dying doesn’t bother me Cane. It’s been a very real professional risk for 24+ years, my new gig has not reduced the that in any fashion. A few of my hobbies also come with the very real risk of dying, but if I die on the job or skydiving, my children will get my stuff. Big difference then losing it in divorce. And losing the stuff isn’t the worst part. Living with a woman full time is the daily death of a man’s soul, pride and dignity. Marriage is infinitely worse then death.
My ex was unfaithful so I do have the option, and I believe more then one wife if Biblically legal. Since I still pay the ex every month, adding a second wife is allowable as well.
@Ton
One day you’ll realize that Christ’s death of soul, pride, and dignity did not start when He was crucified, but when the Creator of the universe chose to become a pitiful creation; when Him who was and is utterly untouchable put Himself, HIS pride, HIS dignity, and HIS soul through daily death by taking on flesh for the sake of others.
You call such behavior foolish, over and over again. That’s not the truth. That’s not Christ.
Big whoop. If you knew the truth you’d know this is literally the case for everyone every day. This is a world where babies are slaughtered by the millions, but you think you deserve better because you carried a weapon for the wealthiest, most awesomely arrayed superpower the world has ever seen? God is not impressed with you playing soldier for the physical world. Neither was your wife, apparently. Nor is anyone else–as you painfully know. The truth is that your children will take what you leave them in death, and ruin it; selling your possessions, and your legacy for a good time. Then, having squandered everything you wanted for them,and almost never thinking of what you did for them, they will die.
So where are you now? For that matter: Where is civilization; for which you so proudly fought? You pride yourself on being a soldier, but you come here and profess cowardice, spite, regret, bitterness, and envy. Worse: You spit on marriage; which God has said is good.
You profess to be a Christian, but cannot speak the truth on the most fundamental things of Christ. Both those things cannot be true. Just admit the truth: Marriage is good, but your wife dishonored it, you, and God with adultery, lying, pride, and all sorts of filthiness. Meanwhile: All of those around you abandoned you, and your marriage, and left you to die, daily. You were too weak with anger and your own sin to continue justifying her sin, and now you’re divorced. Whatever problems you have with marriage you and your wife and the community brought into it. The problem isn’t marriage: The problem is you thought you and her and we were good enough. You were wrong.
Nevertheless: God is good, and what He has said is good, is good; even marriage. And even though neither I, nor my wife, are good enough for marriage, we plead with Him to hide away our sin; to strike down our sinful selves and so elevate Christ and His goodness and sacrificial love for everyone around us to see.
When I decided to reconcile with my wife it was because I decided that I would rather her kill me in a murderous rage, than to willingly and daily spit on God’s word for my own selfish desires, for my pride and dignity. Those, too, would die with me, and I longed for something more. I wanted to live and exult and love forever. That path goes through the death of pride and dignity.
From the materialist perspective: Marriage is worse than worthless, but Christians are not of this world. This is why I never approach the topics of marriage, sex, and love from a biological perspective, or from any perspective other than God’s truth. It’s foolish to even speak of love if you don’t believe in it as something greater than yourself.
God has done you a favor by using your ex-wife to show you how weak you are. He rebukes and discipline those He loves for their betterment, but destroys those who reject His word.
The truth is marriage was good, generations before we we’re born. The things built into it which was good and helpful are no longer built into marriage.
I never fought for civilization. Don’t go visiting my thoughts. With all your fancy words, you don’t know a damn thing.
As for the rest, save your selfrightoues horseshit for others. The way I see it, you and others are preaching this shit to make your own poor decision seem noble and Godly. We are supposed to rejoice in our wives, and drink from their fountain, not the daily grind of familial warfare marriage is today
The Lord our Father is supposed to give us good gifts, is my ex wife a good gift? What you said and what the Bible says does not jive. but I know your type has a 10000 word reply to rectify your mistake with the Bible
And when one of those fornication relationships finally “works out”, she’ll say it was all for the best anyways. The inescapable message is that serial monogamy fornication is nominally bad, but is a legitimate path to marriage. Don’t believe me. Read the so-called Red Pill women’s blogs.
I cannot deny the truth of parts of this statement but as I have done time and again, I ask:
When You’ve Done What You’ve Done, What’s Left to Do?
I think there is a balance buried in here somewhere between the fact that I behaved dishonorably and whorishly and the fact that in the end, it worked out. That a great marriage emerged against all odds. I could go all Calvinist and try to play the “God knew I’d repent and he would come to faith so it was his plan” card as I’ve seen others do, but at least I don’t do that.
Your implication that acknowledging the gift of extremely unwarranted grace equals justification of past sins is off base, Cane.
At least for some of us.
@ Cane
“If you marry someone, you’re choosing to accept those sins and consequences”
Lets avoid the the churchy unscriptural language/concepts and bring it to common vernacular- is that acceptable ?
You are correct. And the keyword is “IF”.
When it come to marriage, sex, and children every person has “deal breakers”.
These “deal breakers” consist of multiple behaviors including personality discorders, lifestyle, moral habits, personal cleanliness, eating habits, and “relationship etiquette”.
It is fair for both parties to know the deal breakers and be truthful.
Unless I have multiple “Hosea experiences” and know absolutely sure G_D dovetails the situation – I’ll pass.
Btw, I have no problem dating / courting women as described if I chose to. I prefer to pass – I have found it a complete waste of time, energy, and resources.
In addition, I use 1 Cor 7 as a de facto standard and enjoy my single life.
I think your missing the main point of consequences (whether good or bad) – everyone single person has these and quite often we pick our on “life instructor”. Our response determines the final outcome (blame other people, avoid responsibility, repeat the same mistake over & over ala rationalization hamster or learn a painful lesson from it – Btw, its a good idea to learn from others and their mistakes).
This life is nothing more to show what type of person one is – either one is decent, virtuous, or bad, evil and many different degrees in between. Dont make to much of it.
Just do the best with what you have and “show some class”
Btw, bringing the scripture back in regarding Paul- I commend Paul for taking the “throne in his flesh/messenger from Satan” and “being content in all situations” very insightful. He was always with gracious and poised despite ” his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.”
I seriously dont think the Modern Evangelical “Christians” would recognize a real prophet or a real apostle.
~Shalom
Don’t backtrack now, soldier-boy. The mouth speaks out of the abundance of the heart. As you have rightly discerned: I am an enthused proponent of marriage, for those to who can accept it. In a similar way, whenever death is brought up, you always bring up your military service. And if you were in the service, then you were fighting for this civilization. Period. My words aren’t fancy, but plain. You just don’t like them.
It’s telling that you would respond to my short remark about you fighting for civilization, but leave untouched my two paragraphs on your marriage.
No, she is not, and yes it does.
The Bible says: “A prudent wife is from the Lord.” If your wife wasn’t prudent, then she wasn’t from the Lord. What I said was God used your ex-wife. He is the Lord of good and evil–of life and death. He turned the wickedness of your wife into an opportunity for you. Yet, you come here and spit on the very idea of marriage itself; except as something impossible; lost to the past. Is God the god of the past only, or are His words meant for us today?
You and your wife are the things built into marriage. Therefore, it was your wife and you who were not good, as your marriage is a wreck. Marriage itself, is wonderful. A huge part of this is the community–which is us all–does not support marriage as they are ordained to do. Now you’re on the side of the community. You speak like the rabble to tear down the idea of marriage itself.
Unless your protest is that since no one is fit for marriage, then no one should be married. In which case I would have to respond: Who are you to take away what God has given? Who’s business is it of yours to say that others cannot do what God has allowed? In this way, you would be no different from your ex-wife; except that you felt the consequences when she said it to you with her harlotry.
Whichever way we slice it: Your problem with marriage is your own pride. Pride that was so weak it could not survive a woman. I’ve been there.
The Bible says that when your ex-wife committed adultery, she sinned against herself; she soiled herself. Because the two are one, then her sin was keenly felt by you. The world says that she sinned against you, and that you are soiled. Who do you believe? We will know by what comes out of your mouth, and how you conduct yourself.
And the rich (in pride) man went away sad; for he had many possessions (feelings).
You take “one flesh” too far Cane. I’ll go investigate it myself, but my gut reaction is that you are reading too much into that.
@Elspeth
I’m not sure exactly what you’re accusing me of, because I’m reading your words here as being that of which you are accusing me.
I know all good things come from God, and therefore good things come from me only in as much as I am dead to myself and Christ is alive in me. Whatever good I do, is of him, and whatever bad is of my sinful self. If a person is already married, this opportunity and ability to die to yourself and let Christ live in you is still available. In whatever measure a Christian is a good spouse, or good parent, it is the Spirit living within him that does the good work.
Here is the balance between you (or me, or anyone) behaving dishonorably and the fact that it “worked out”: The spirit convicted us of dishonor, we plead to God to save us, and He does because He has said He would, and He is good to His word. And because He wants good things for His children He gives us what is good for us. And because He disciplines those whom He loves, he uses temporal pain and death to teach us, that we might not suffer eternal pain and death. All we really have to do is believe these things are true, and the rest will follow.
From here we can go our separate ways in regards to whether this happens through faith alone, the sacraments themselves, whathaveyou. That’s a different discussion.
I would hate to come off as accusatory, but I guess in essence I was accusing you of arguing that most if not all “red pill” women whose fornicationships ended in marriage allow the hamster to tell us that our sin wasn’t so bad because it all worked out.
I was pointing out to you that it isn’t the case.Not by a long shot. It’s possible however, that I totally misunderstood what you were saying.
@ Cane “I am an enthused proponent of marriage, for those to who can accept it.”
Can I safely assume “Christian Marriage” ? The “Christian Marriage” that is outlined in the gospels & epistles ?
For example 1 Peter 3
1. be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives (dont be a Femnazi and show show class)
2 chaste and respectful behavior (this starts before marriage )
3Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses (ie dont dress like a typical woman as in many parts of the USA)
4but let it be the hidden person of the heart, gentle and quiet spirit (not the nagging and complaining )
5… former times the holy women also, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands (ie example)
6just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear (this means dont freak out)
To Men:
See above and be cool/kind since she is given to hysteria and mood swings, so that your prayers will not be hindered.
If a person doesn’t subscribe to what is written in the holy scripture before marriage it is foolish to think they will after they are married.
~Shalom
@ Deti
Women do not understand the inherent unfairness of divorce law in this country and none that I’ve spoken to, including family, care to inform themselves.
I was reading about Helen of Troy and Cleopatra. I was reminded men have fought wars (countless needless deaths, primitive yes, but there is a point) over beautiful YOUNG women. Not their IQ. Not their job skills. Not their debating abilities. Not their confidence or profess of being independent. Beautiful YOUNG women. NONE of these women are over 30.
They MUST know men could truly careless about the above mentioned qualities. Yet they still press on in utter denial. A pity this realization only occurs sometime between their first dip on their social life chart and and frantically Googling “How to get married at 30” or “How to get married over 30” and ending up here. Yet they STILL are in utter and total denial.
In spite of the obvious. That’s what just blows me away. Have you ever noticed the thousands or MILLIONS of You-Tube video views receive posted by an 18-24 year old with a pretty face? Take a look at the still on this video. Would this video receive almost 50 million views if the women in the video where over age 30?
There are thousands of You-Tube videos like this with young fertile, attractive girls going about their day or having some fun posting random videos receiving millions of views.
It just totally blows my mind how any young women can believe the lie that she can party her youth away and get married at 30+. At least not without significantly lowering her standards drastically and immediately. Like going from dining in Beverly Hills to The Olive Garden. Yet they refuse even the Olive Garden and eventually are left with selections of Cafeteria Food.
I don’t know how any women who professes to fall in love and have a family could be so foolish and brainwashed to waste a decade of her youth in selfishness and be so astoundingly stupid as to believe she can cash out all her chips at the last moment. I can’t get to the heart of what would make a women so foolish to flout the obvious truths that have existed since the dawn of civilization.
I fought because I enjoy it, a byproduct is of course supporting the usa, but I never woke up and said let’s do this for uncle sam or western civ. I did it, and still do for fun and pay.
You cane are somewhat better with the shaming lauange then femisinst but still very far from the mark.
I did not divorce my wife for infidelity, I divorced her for lack of sex, mismanagement of family resources and a variety of neglect. I found out about her infidelity after the divorce. None of her misbehavior mattered to the judge and he threw it into no fault with a quickness. By the time I found about her being a whore… well it was only a relief as it explained so much.
You don’t know a tenth part of what you think you know.
It is interesting how many words you need. the Good Book, taught this hillbilly the more words the more lies.
@ Michael “I don’t know how any women who professes to fall in love and have a family could be so foolish and brainwashed to waste a decade of her youth in selfishness and be so astoundingly stupid as to believe she can cash out all her chips at the last moment. I can’t get to the heart of what would make a women so foolish to flout the obvious truths that have existed since the dawn of civilization.”
This is soooo true. Its not whether the woman has a beautiful face and rocking body that makes her so darn unattractive and undesirable marriage material – it is the stolid multiplied to the 10th power.
As Judge Judy put it “Beauty fades and dumb is forever”
@Michael Singer
Yes, I’m speaking of marriage as it is in the Gospel and Epistles.
No doubt.
And yet, these indicatives and imperatives were given to people who did not display them, but who were still married, and were giving themselves in marriage. Those folks weren’t any different than we are today. The kingdom of heaven is still at hand–salvation is available for any who seek it.
If you have a wife, and she’s not prudent, then she needs to be submitted to the Lord because we know that she is not of the Lord, because if she were, then she would be prudent.
If you are looking for a wife, and she’s not disposed to be submitted to the Lord, then this process is going to be very rough indeed. Tread carefully. I would counsel against marrying such a woman for obvious reasons. More importantly: I would have to take her unwillingness to submit as the sign that it is: She is not of the Lord. Therefore, I should not marry her because we should not be unequally yoked…and there’s going to be trouble.
For myself, I think rephrasing those things into rules can almost immediately start leading us astray. My preference is to reiterate them as closely as I can, and to think about them in the way they’ve been given to me as best I can. The time for specificity is in applying them to a particular person, or action. So, I don’t give out rules like, “It’s a sin to have cleavage showing in public.”, even though in almost any case of it, we would recognize it as sinful. Better to say, “Your adornment must not be merely external.” That’s WAY better.
We don’t need to measure hemlines, or catalog wardrobes to know if a woman is immodest. We know it when we see it. All that does is encourage legalism. It encourages women to dress modestly according to whatever rules, and then be slutty on the inside. That’s MUCH worse. If we focus on the inner adornment, we’ll get good outer adornment thrown in. The outer adornment is meant for signaling.
By the way, GKC, this is why the overt slut is preferable to the co-habitating girlfriend, and the cad is preferrable to the fornicating boyfriend. They are more true; hot or cold, but not lukewarm. If my daughter was fornicating with her boyfriend, I would immediately demand they break up, and everyone understands why.
But what does having them break up do, if sin is in the heart? It stops the continuation of that manifestation of sin. Now, having succeeded in that: What do we call a girl who is in a sexual relationship one day, and then not the next? A slut. But we know stopping sin cannot be what caused the slutting. Therefore: the slut was there all along, as surely and as vilely as in the bar slut.
If you encourage them to get married, and “make an honest woman of her”, then you’re accepting the idea that one can move from sin into virtue without going through repentance. God will not let us get away with conjuring up virtue by satisfying legal proprieties. We will be instructed.
If it’s of interest to anyone: I have tried this myself. Total failure. We had a miserable marriage. Once I gave up on the idea that I was doing or had done anything right, and that I would never feel love to her or from her, I could resolve myself to love as action. I was going to prove how worthless it was to lead and protect my undeserving, and rebellious wife by doing what was good for her according to Biblical standards, as best I was able to see, and even if it killed her.
It didn’t. God has blessed our marriage; though it’s not a quid pro quo. God owed me nothing.
That’s the difference between Game (as laid out in the 16 commandments of poon, the iron rules, evo psych, and all that nonsense) and the Gospel. Game is about action towards the benefit of yourself, and the Gospel is about action towards the benefit of others; in this case, a wife. It’s the difference between loving yourself, and loving another.
You simply can’t Christianize self-love. Churches across America have been working on it day and night for a very long time, and even they can’t get it down.
@Elspeth
Whether and which women do that or not is able to be seen. To be perfectly clear: Yes, I was arguing that self-justification is true of many of them. I’m not trying to pick a fight with you, but to warn other men. Don’t pick a fight with me, either.
@Ton
No doubt. But now you’ve resorted to “Well I only kinda-sorta did this, and it wasn’t exactly the way you said, so you don’t know me!” as a legitimate statement. See you around, Ton.
@ Cane
I dont think being a “Christian” has anything to do regarding with a successful marriage partner / marriage material.
It comes down to keeping ones word and behaving like a decent person (integrity).
There are plenty of times I have seen the following
– Non Religious people take the “high road”
– Religious / Christians take the “low road” (ie lie, cheat, steal, take pleasure at someones else expense).
From Cane:
“That’s the difference between Game (as laid out in the 16 commandments of poon, the iron rules, evo psych, and all that nonsense) and the Gospel. Game is about action towards the benefit of yourself, and the Gospel is about action towards the benefit of others; in this case, a wife. It’s the difference between loving yourself, and loving another.”
The changes that come from Applying the Gospel in Romantic Relationships (hereafter referred to as AGRR) as opposed to game are subtle. As a frustrated college student trying to make PUA tricks jive with a conviction that premarital sex was sinful, I had spotty success. I have since (with the help of the Christian manosphere, h/t) changed gears from looking for a date or a girlfriend or a makeout to looking for a wife (and preparing myself for the responsibilities that husbanding entails). It has changed how I go about things subtly. From the outside I might appear to DHVing to an entire group, but if I have my head on straight that night I am actively trying to help other children of God feel comfortable and loved. A PUA might see me next’ing a girl after a date where the girl seemed unresponsive and call it “not rewarding bad behavior;” I am simply looking for a woman who might be willing to be submissive. I approach more women unromantically (there are some less-attractive women in my congregation whose day will be made by a nice guy flirting with them a bit); a PUA would see that and think I’m setting up jealousy plotlines.
It is very much an internal change. I am still growing into it.
Having lost my game, for His sake, I have found it, ha.
Bullshit cane. Don’t be such a fucking pussy because you cannot brow beat me into your horseshit
You don’t know the tenth part of my life, or the Bible or any other topic on hand.
Don’t pick a fight with me, either.
Well Okay, :). We’re good.
@Ton
You don’t know a tenth part of what you think you know.
You don’t know the tenth part of my life, or the Bible or any other topic on hand.
When you point the finger at someone and say things like that in the arrogant manner that you are saying them here, just remember there are three fingers pointing back at you. It might do to look in the mirror and lose that arrogance, realize that you don’t know it all. Even about your own life.
Do like the marines do point the whole damn hand as a complete gesture
RA, what have you accomplished that I should give a rat’s ass about your silly ass opinion? Where have I ever claimed to be an expert on much besides my profession, power lifting and myself?
Yep Greyghost, that’s how it’s done, fist or flat hand. One finger conveys what?
It’s the get married, women are worth it, save civilization crowd which thinks it knows all and has all the answers
http://terminallance.com/comics/2010-08-27-Strip_59_Knife_Hands_web.gif yeah that’s not finger pointing there.
A drill sgt I knew told me there was a block of instruction on how to gesture. Pretty wild they have things that dialed in. Any rate I adopted much of what he told me where I was a kid
hey
a women over 30 doesnt need advice to get married unless she is unatractive or has other issues a women at 30 is more sopisticated than her at 20 and will attract the same kind of guy…like goes with like…if she wants a family so does he and to the guy complaining posting videos of teenagers in bikinis u are a pervert NO its not all about age i know lots of women who got married around 30 .. u guys are so pathetic using religion as a cruch ok seriously what year is it?? ok? you really think any body is paying attention to u? everyone has sex get over it… well except u ha. so seriusly though using religon because you just want to control women with a double standard because its ok for guys to sleep around but when a girl does it shes suddenly a whore? i dont think so. and how dare you think you can tell other people what to do with their sex lifes or how many guys they sleep with as if its any of your business because????? GET A LIFE !
@ seriouslypleasedropit
Why not join a singles group and date a girl who won’t spread her legs for you until your wedding night?
I am simply looking for a woman who might be willing to be submissive
Im thinking there is a problem with this remark
Liz
a woman that sleeps around is a whore. As for marriage. Based on your comments you are not marriage material. You are most likely good enough to have sex with. Until you decide you want some new dick. These churchian fools still thinking there are wives to be had are pathetic as your comment shows. You are an example of what the modern church is worshipping and you are obviously unimpressed.
Churchians
All heil this good pussy fellas. MGTOW and PUA are missing out. We need to save civilization for these fine examples of educated brides. Show her the love fellas. You need or want love baby come talk to greyghost he has what you want and what you need. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_uRIMUBnvw
Advice to an angry Hamster
No one here wishes to control women through religion or otherwise, and neither do we want to tell women what to do for their sex lives.
We merely observe:
That Promiscuity is slutdom in the same way that Daylight means its morning, and the more promiscuous a woman the less marriageable she is – if you doubt this, ask any man.
That so many 30 something women with glowing profiles and photos to match fill the bandwidth of OKCupid in search of that so elusive husband, and with little success.
That finding teenagers attractive is normal for men – sorry, but that is the way God/Darwin wired us, and there is nothing to be done about it, and all the sophistication that a thirty year old may have will not override this.
That male promiscuity is not only not necessarily unattractive to women but has far less serious consequences for men than for women – we are the catch; we do not have to marry if we do not wish to – so women have to make marriage worth a man’s while, and promiscuity is not a deal maker (other than for pump and dump).
I am sorry if this is unacceptable but it is reality and Dalrock’s essay is there to be taken for what it is worth. If you get nothing from it, so be it. All Dalrock is doing is setting out what he considers is the way to best attract a husband. That’s all. It is simple advice, and if you, Liz, think he is mistaken I am sure we would all be happy to learn in exactly what way it is so. That you have ended up here suggests that advice in this area is what you are seeking so your views as to Dalrock’s errors would be of inestimable interest to us.
@ Liz – Lets leave the religious stuf out.
– If a 28+ year old woman that is “all that with whipped cream and a cherry on top” is wondering why I am not a “trophy” wife and looking to get married.
Then the answer is quite obvious – she is NOT trophy material.
“everyone has sex get over it” – Wrong again. Some people have self esteem, morals, and want the same in a marriage partner. There are consequences for every single action and is a universal law, and one actions dictates what they are. People are chaste or they are not. Just because the majority of the Western population fornicates doesn’t make fornication chaste/moral.
My sincere wishes is you marry someone “just like you” 🙂
~Shalom
empathologism:
I am willing to be corrected. Thoughts?
Lol… “who might be willing” – The word that is amiss is “might”.
Either a women “is and gets it” that she is a “help mate / ezer “, respectful, and is willing to “put herself into subjection” to her husband and in return the husband is going to sacrifice himself or she doesn’t.
Maybe / might doesn’t work. That means the man “maybe / might ” sacrifice himself.
Its a black/white / 100% all in or not. The relationship will suffer/fail due to lack of integrity on one side or both.
~shalom
@Ton
“Hey darling, my 1st wife was a virgin. She went to church twice a week, and choir practice once a week. Her family is stable, no history of divorce, she was a state ranked swimmer, low maintenance and could give sugar lessons on being sweet.
All that was gone by year 7 of our marriage. I choose much of what the Christian manosphere says to chose. It did no good, and no matter who a man marries, a man has no legal protection or standing once he signs the contract.
I offered the girl vows between me, her and God. Initially she was good with that but succumbed to peer pressure. The main argument being with out the contract she would be out of luck if we went our own ways. She craved legal advantages over me. This girl was a pharmacist with no school debt. She’d not need my money if we split”
I’m really sorry to hear about all that Ton, there’s nothing worse than betrayal. That your ex was once all those things when you first met but then so drastically changed must have it made all the worse.
“You are naive darling, but it’s part of your charm. Pre nups are worthless. Judges throw them out everyday. Greyghost has the right of it, as he often does. On paper at lest, I am a high value man and I am off the marriage market unless the laws change. ”
Yeah, you’ll have to excuse my naivety on the subject. Lol, I’ve never had any personal experience with it, so definitely not an expert. I don’t blame you for wanting to stay off the marriage market until the laws change. I’m just not sure how or when that’s going to be. Hopefully the much needed reforms will come about soon.
@Grey
“The problem is by law. No man has right not to be taken to the cleaners. Any woman can do a man in by law and there is nothing that he can legally do about it.There is no right woman to marry. There is no wife, only a legal gun to his head.”
Of course it’s not right that he’s taken to the cleaners. I didn’t say it was. However, I don’t necessarily agree that there is “no right woman to marry.” Yes, you can go ahead and call me clueless, but I still believe that if it’s a good match,there’s a high chance of the marriage lasting. It may not guarantee it, (and I don’t think there’s really anything that does) but I believe it would definitely be a start. I mean, how would a married couple be affected by divorce laws if their marriage is solid and they remain together?
“Ton does care about any of that frivolous shit what his statement was is a change in the law would make him consider marriage. It is in the law. As a woman a smart move to “save” marriage (and this goes for you wannabe Christians actual churchians calling yourself traditional saving civilization) would be rather than play pick the right woman games have the laws of misandry removed .”
I’m not too clear about what you mean by “frivolous shit.” But I agree that many of the divorce laws are unfair and need to change. You propose that women and “churchians” should have the laws changed, but even if they do their part in working towards that goal, it’s probably going to take a while.In the meantime, should those making an honest effort still be denied? Even if they’re trying, and even if they themselves did not make the laws?
@Persp
Even if marriage laws were solved …
The problem is marriage is a one sided contract
All women who marry, marry a alpha beta paradigm, not a man
This creates an extreme one sided relationship
The man is emotionally committed to the relationship, but the woman is only biologically committed as long as he remains alpha
This creates an emotionally satisfying relationship only for the woman, but the man is never able to lower his guard & build a relationship, which satisfies all his needs, as he has to be alpha all the time, in order to keep the wife
This forces the husband to become distant & walled off from the family
Also women have obscene personalty defects & are extremely dysfunctional
Women are never taught to self correct their hypergamy, irrational & illogical behaviour
Also women are never taught to hold themselves responsible for their own actions
This causes her to shit test, throw hysterics & fits
Which she expects the husband to correct, instead of correcting her own irrational & hamster behaviour
This creates a highly hostile environment for the husband, & causes him huge amounts of distress having to deal with a woman, who’s never been taught how to have a relationaship with a man
Also whats even worse The man brings all the resources, the woman just brings her vagina & her vagina
Traditional marriage & monogamy has to be made satisfying for men
Even women like Sunshine Mary refuse to see men need sex at least once a week …
Thats how little women value mens rights in a marriage, all women want is an alpha to biologically attach to
Women very rarely go out of their way to give a crap about a mans rights in a marriage
Perspective
I can tell you care about this subject. The most important thing to understand is that it is all about laws of misandry that is it. There is no “wife” because by law she doesn’t have to be one. She won’t be because it is not natural for a woman to be one. All of this talk about game, finding a good women etc. is the frivolous shit I was talking about. It is all just a work around for the laws of misandry. rmaxgenactivepua comments above are a page of the frivolous shit from having a sexual relationship with her husband to giving a damn about a mans rights just as a human being is not normal for a woman to do with out it being something that takes care of her. with out the laws of misandry a woman will do the things that men need and be pleasant to her man not out of kindness but out of pure wicked selfishness. And she can be romantically loved for that to the point of a man proudly and with hesitation dying for her. I could love that woman too even knowing what I know. It’s called being a man and it is part of that sweat of his brow and toil thing in genesis.
I don’t know if you are single ,married or are looking for a husband or boyfriend when you can understand this concept you will be in a good position to be a pleasant woman to spend a life with. That behavior coincidentally looks a lot like that biblical submission stuff. If you want to be a pleasant woman you are on your own. You will always be unsure of yourself nowhere in culture will you have affirmation not even in church. Even the laws of misandry will be used against you being a pleasant wife. God will step in and sooth your soul and give you the inner peace and it will come not when you want it or when you think you need it. I hope this helps out some. I’m not as an elegant as some writers are. I do wish you well.
As a woman of 28, just let me add my personal 2 cents on this issue:
Men like to put themselves up on this pedestal, like they are some kind of precious mineral that is in short supply and that all the womenfolk are freaking out about it. Statements such as ‘What many women in their 30′s don’t get is that men in and around the same age range and a little older usually become too independent to change. It’s really hard to give up our freedom and space for someone else…’ illustrates this mindset.
The thing is – news flash- there are plenty of women in their 30’s and even late 20’s who think the same way and I would bet that it is increasing.
For the late 20’s and early 30’s ladies of current, our generation got hit pretty hard by the recession. All of the things we missed out on in our early 20’s – starting a career, taking vacations, starting businesses, buying Art, hanging out with friends who actually have money to do stuff, and having upper class parties that don’t involve frat boys and beer pong -we are just barely doing now. This does not leave a whole lot of time for a significant other.
We realize that the romantic world is passing us by and that we are appraching our precious ‘sell-by’ dates. Surprisingly, the more emotionally grounded and confident of us are fully aware of this and genuinely aren’t worried. We are not under the dick trance. A few of the lucky ones found their man and had their babies and good for them. Most of us, however, are savoring our independent lives and have thus developed eccentricities and habits that can get in the way of sharing our lives with another person.
By nature men are too analytical. Most of them have this very systematic, black-and-white template on how they view the world. It reminds me of an electrical engineering class I took in college – digital logic theory – all women want to marry and have kids OR they are ‘crazy’ and deny it with their ‘hamster wheel.’ The truth is boys, the world is a crazy, uncertain place with many variables, very few of which are predictable. This isn’t diagnosing a car problem – this is dealing with the real people in the real world where there are many shades of grey. I advise the men out there to take advantage of the social sciences while they are in school so that they can be better equipped to deal with human factors in the real world so that they don’t fall into the this-or-that thinking pattern.
You propose that women and “churchians” should have the laws changed, but even if they do their part in working towards that goal, it’s probably going to take a while.In the meantime, should those making an honest effort still be denied? Even if they’re trying, and even if they themselves did not make the laws?
Yes all here should focus on what can be done to change the laws. Remember women vote so no changes in the laws of misandry unless it is in line with the natural nature of women. 50 years of appeal to empathy of women to the plight of men and even children makes no difference to women. They will always vote for there own selfish interest even overriding the constitution. So The battle for change comes from the need to make it in her selfish interest to remove the laws of misandry. This is where MGTOW , the PUA, and the peter pan types come into play. These men deny commitment to women. 2 say no and 1 is just undesirable. The PUA kills two birds with one stone they deny commitment and waste away the fertility of the feral slut . The MGTOW and the peter pans give her no gina tingle options so she stays on to ride the carousel. How the churchian are failing civilization is they are in awe of the feminine imperative and fail to teach what I am typing here now to the Christian young men. That failure makes them churchians giving women no gina tingle to follow. The truth is women don’t give a damn about god jesus or anything else it is about strength and gina tingle. It is normal At this time with the goal of changing the law the churchians are helping with the cause. Women when in a position of where it is in there selfish interest of pleasure will the laws change. The mechanics of getting that done is a whole subject. Men need the laws changed or to have some serious game. You as a woman just need to know the truth. Speak kindly and bring something more than a pussy to the table. And you will not be denied. Any beta male will do as a person, churchians are not your only option (he’s not Christian any way if you think about it) Find one with game or a MGTOW type and not try to measure your worth with how much of a burden you can be. A women that has more than pussy to offer will get a commitment purely for the soothing pleasure you bring. I still don’t have it down how to tell a women how to get a loving man in todays world. My goal and heart bis more set on making sure you are a miserable cat lady that dies alone working every day paying taxes as a single no dependence. With nobody knowing she is dead until the odor of her decomposing body comes through the walls of her dwelling. Sounds bad but I have a 7 year old son to worry about. good luck and be pleasant
Jane, as a fellow woman, let me warn you to prepare yourself for a thrashing. That is, if the men posters here even respond to you.
Jane
I’m sure no man here is good enough for you. I know I’m not. I wouldn’t waste my time marrying If I was you. You seem too together to allow yourself to be trapped in situation like that. I do agree with you on the comment about men that think a woman that does want kids is crazy. let them think that. I wouldn’t want my daughters with guys like that any way. If you have your independence down I would just look to see what others are thinking as you have down and feel secure in knowing you made the right choice. I do thank you for not marring some guy and having a child to abuse for your own selfish desires. I have to give you love for that.
Jane says:
Most of us, however, are savoring our independent lives and have thus developed eccentricities and habits that can get in the way of sharing our lives with another person.
@Jane
If you dont need men
Why are you behaving like a demented crazy cat woman, & commenting on a thread about single women want to marry in their 30’s?
Who wants to count the number of cobwebs & bats flying out everytime Jane opens her legs … lol
Jane enjoy your barren bomb & children & family you’ll never have … you’ve earned your stupidity
Gold star for being the poster child for batshit crazy cat lady …
@ Jane
Tell me, did you ever get a passing grade in the ‘Electrical Engineering’ class you took in college?
You are correct, men think in black & white terms……..right & wrong. Electrical wiring is a perfect analogy…..women are wired (hard-coded) a certain way, men are wired (hard-coded) a certain way.
Start screwing with the wiring, and all hell breaks loose.
Much like your electrical engineering class, there are certain irrefutable laws of physics that are not going to rescind themselves because someone ‘feels’ it should be that way. That’s a perfect recipe for burning down the house. (Feminists, congratulations on a GRAND bon-fire to date)
Jane, you are self admittedly in your late 20’s, early 30’s. You talk brave right now, I give you 10 years before sheer PANIC sets in.
Enjoy the waning days of the feminist movement, and all the platitudes it has to offer.
Feminists are on borrowed time, and once time is up………men will once again take their rightful place as family leaders.
OR
The die-hard non-conforming feminists will suffer a fate similar to Fantine in Les Miserables.
TICK, TICK, TICK…..
Addendum : barren womb … not barren bomb …. lol
Perspective, darling your naivety is charming, nothing to excuse.
I did not find out about the ex’s infidelity until recently. Learning it was relief. Most likely she went about sabotaging our marriage because of it, ( the problems and her infidelity seem to coincide) and lifted a burden from me
Stranger words, but that’s how it was.
The problem is not that marriages fail, but men bare an inordinately large share of the fiscal burden, as in all, and what not. You simply don’t know if you choose wisely for many years after the wedding, and the courts do nothing to offset the risk
Then there are the marriage which have failed but don’t end up in divorce, which seems to be 50% of more of the “successful” marriages. You know, where there is debt out the ass, no money for hobbies, nothing but a rash of shit for wanting to go do your hobby, no gratitude, no respect, crap cooking, messy house, no sex….. no thanks. As it stands now, I have no trouble finding girlfriends, and they are easy to replace when they don’t behave. Which is rarely because they know they are easy to replace.
Most people need the.carrot and the stick to behave well. in marriage, there is neither to inspire the wife to behave well.
@ Jane
“Most of us, however, are savoring our independent lives and have thus developed eccentricities and habits that can get in the way of sharing our lives with another person.”
So……..I’m guessing when you say ‘eccentricities’ you mean a house full of cats?
Hopeful’s warning, funny as hell.
@Jane
“The truth is boys, the world is a crazy, uncertain place with many variables, very few of which are predictable. This isn’t diagnosing a car problem – this is dealing with the real people in the real world where there are many shades of grey.”
Very well said
@GG
You give some good advice, but I’m just a bit unclear about your stance. In your first post to me today you said,
“God will step in and sooth your soul and give you the inner peace and it will come not when you want it or when you think you need it. I hope this helps out some. I’m not as an elegant as some writers are. I do wish you well.”
Thanks, I wish you well too, but then in your second post it’s,
“My goal and heart bis more set on making sure you are a miserable cat lady that dies alone working every day paying taxes as a single no dependence. With nobody knowing she is dead until the odor of her decomposing body comes through the walls of her dwelling. Sounds bad but I have a 7 year old son to worry about. good luck and be pleasant”
Just a bit confused. Are your wishing that “God will step in and sooth my soul and give me the inner peace and it will come not when I want it or when I think you need it?” Or as you previously stated, is it your “goal and heart bis more set on making sure you are a miserable cat lady that dies alone working every day paying taxes as a single no dependence. With nobody knowing she is dead until the odor of her decomposing body comes through the walls of her dwelling?”
Perspective
I consider myself an MRA. I am married father of 3 and a soldier in the war on men. Both statement I made are true from me one applies to you and all women. And the latter applies to all women and you if you choose that way of life. My true stance is the latter as a soldier and a father that loves his children. I am human and I am fighting for a purpose. You to me are a woman that gives a damn what I told you was sincere and I meant what I posted A pleasant woman as yourself will be fine. There is nothing I could say or do that can change that. You are in the driver’s seat on this one. I can say and mean both because both are true. Look at Jane’s comment up there. That is not pleasant. I fully encourage her to keep doing what she is doing. Go out and make eye contact and smile lose weight if you need to feel confident and know in your heart you are a pleasant woman. You will be blessed.
“Are your wishing that “God will step in and sooth my soul and give me the inner peace and it will come not when I want it or when I think you need it?””
Yes
@Ton
The truth is marriage was good, generations before we we’re born. The things built into it which was good and helpful are no longer built into marriage.
The truth is you’ve read so little of history you feel comfortable saying things like this that are so wrong it is obscene. You’re fond of agreeing with GB4M about reading great books and then you blow by Helen of Troy, one of the most powerful figures in Western literature. Happy marriage? I don’t think so.
The Christian saga starts with the upheaval of Adam and Eve for Heaven’s sake. What fantasy land are you living in? Marriage has _always_ been hard. There have _always_ been forces seeking to destroy it. Christian marriage was so hard in one of the few recorded passages where the apostles balked in mass with Jesus was where he talked about _marriage_.
One of my biggest beefs with the ‘sphere is they point out a real problem and then proceed to shoot themselves in the foot with silly comments like these.
Don’t be such a fucking pussy because you cannot brow beat me into your horseshit
You don’t know the tenth part of my life
Uh-huh. So he pointed out where you were wrong, tore apart your argument. And now… “you don’t know me!!!!”
Really? Look if that’s your framing I don’t know if I can blame your wife going nuts anymore than I can blame a dog for being overly aggressive when dealing with a passive-aggressive master.
Of course he doesn’t, “know you,” he’s addressed what you have _said here_.
@Micheal S.
My sincere wishes is you marry someone “just like you” 🙂
Justice is always satisfied in the end.
@Jane,
For the late 20’s and early 30’s ladies of current, our generation got hit pretty hard by the recession. All of the things we missed out on in our early 20’s – starting a career, taking vacations, starting businesses, buying Art, hanging out with friends who actually have money to do stuff, and having upper class parties that don’t involve frat boys and beer pong -we are just barely doing now.
That you were able to write something about men being on a pedestal and then this says something about you. It says men should avoid you like the plague. Who expects to buy art in their 20’s (I make a sizable salary and the best art in my house is my daughters)? Upper class parties?
It is like a parody…but it isn’t…
In the meantime I may sip some wine from the cellar I built and and paid for with the money I made by not wasting it in my 20’s on “art” and “high class parties”.
Incredible post from SSM relating the risk of marrying a near “expiring 30 year old”…..
http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/2013/06/04/she-married-for-sperm-and-legitimacy-but-now-shes-outta-there/
For the late 20’s and early 30’s ladies of current, our generation got hit pretty hard by the recession. All of the things we missed out on in our early 20’s – starting a career, taking vacations, starting businesses, buying Art, hanging out with friends who actually have money to do stuff, and having upper class parties that don’t involve frat boys and beer pong -we are just barely doing now. This does not leave a whole lot of time for a significant other.
To be honest, this sounds like self-parody more than anything else.
I graduated from an HYS in the late 80s and then went to law school, and I can tell you that as someone who was your age in the early 1990s, we were not going to upper class parties, starting businesses or buying art. We were busting our asses at work trying to get ahead in the rat race like everyone else has done. Sure in the late 90s there were some techheads making a ton of money with startups and the like in their 20s, but that was so far outside the norm as to be akin to the kind of thing one sees on television. If you’re focused on the nonsense you mention in your note, it stands to reason that there isn’t any time left for a significant other — like any other “good” in life, it requires time to find one, and then time to invest in one. If you do not take that time, it generally doesn’t “just happen”. If you’re happy with that, fine, but just don’t come back to the net when you’re 40 and whinge about the decisions you’re making now, at 28, because you were catching up with your art purchases, vacations, and upper class parties, having missed out on these when you were 24. Again, either you have no clue as to how ridiculous you sound, or you are just engaging in self-parody.
Another Day: Another Hamster. This one going by the name of Jane, here to tell us, not that Dalrock’s advice is wrong, but merely irrelevant by being too analytical. ‘The lucky ones found their man’ is what she says – but apparently Jane’s luck was curtailed by The Credit Crunch – buried amongst her attempt at man shaming, and oblique reference to the Fifty Shades trilogy. We all need to attend Women Studies class, apparently – though I note that what Jane studied was Digital Logic Theory. Must dash – I’m off to buy some Art, go on Vacation, start a Business, move in Upper Class circles, and just generally be Fabulous; and just as soon as that recession blows over.
Of course marriage and Chrstains have always been under attack, but their use to be societal and legal protections for married men. There are none now.
As I said, don’t know the tenth part of my life or any other topic, both of you being thoroughly blinded by your indoctrination
@Ton
Indoctrination in what? …
Re-reading the already classic paragraph from Jane, that Novaseeker quote above: it doesn’t make sense. If Jane was failing to start a career, go vacationing, move in Upper Class Circles, and so on, then what exactly was she doing, that prevented her from finding a soul mate. With all that time on her hands and alleged poverty to motivate her, you’d think she’d have been first down the aisle.
Jane, it has to be said, is not the only person this week who has been making similar excuses: Mervyn King, retiring Governor of the Bank of England, was blaming the fact that he was single until 2007 on his having pursued his career, at the expense of his love life; as if having a degree in Economics morally prevented one from having a life outside of work. King eventually married an aging Divorced Gold-digger who had previously spurned him whilst he was an under-graduate in the late 1960s – amazing what money can do to make a woman re-evaluate. There is, I think, hope for Jane.
Jane is an independent chick, she’s got that thang taped down. She’s hip, she’s with it. She’s a modern gal! No man is enough for her. So, ride on Jane! Don’t let no stinkin man get in your way, sista! I’m sure you’ll be moving around the upper class in no time, having your pick of the cream of the crop. No need to spend your valuable time with us.
Jane, your time is now! Make it happen. Girrrrrrrl Power! Grrrrrrr! That’s right! No men need apply for this fantastic piece of asss!
Feminist hater
I agree with you on that one . That pussy divine needs to be here http://heartiste.wordpress.com/dating-market-value-test-for-women/
@ Jane
“For the late 20’s and early 30’s ladies of current, our generation got hit pretty hard by the recession.”
That’s what student loans and credit cards are for right?
“All of the things we missed out on in our early 20’s – starting a career, taking vacations, starting businesses, buying Art, hanging out with friends who actually have money to do stuff, and having upper class parties that don’t involve frat boys and beer pong -we are just barely doing now. This does not leave a whole lot of time for a significant other.”
-This generalization is completely backwards. What Jane is saying mostly applies to 1-5 scale rated women who are physically undesirable to men. Men are interested in young, attractive, fertile women. Most young, attractive, fertile women are wasting their youth on selfishness taking trips clubbing bar hopping and having fun doing all of the activities your describing in their youth. They remain unmarried, sampling different men as they go along; or at best lily padding from man to man in serial monogamous “relationships”. They are in college accruing massive debts “finding themselves” with worthless psychology, sociology, media, and arts, degrees. Then one day they are “ready” to marry, usually around late 20’s 30’s. By then it’s too late. That is what you need to understand Jane. You’re just not getting it.
“We realize that the romantic world is passing us by and that we are appraching our precious ‘sell-by’ dates. Surprisingly, the more emotionally grounded and confident of us are fully aware of this and genuinely aren’t worried. We are not under the dick trance. A few of the lucky ones found their man and had their babies and good for them. Most of us, however, are savoring our independent lives and have thus developed eccentricities and habits that can get in the way of sharing our lives with another person.”
-Keep telling yourself this. It’s a very typical feminist retort. One which I’ve learned is mostly untrue. The facts are unpleasant. Men are (I hope) and will continue to “wise up” to the game of women counting on getting that one last sucker – many times the type of nice guy they rejected in their youth – to ride up with a pick wallet and scoop up the leftovers – right before/after their sell by dates. This worked in the past. But every con game comes to an end. More and more men are and will continue to find out about this.
-You had referred to the “few” women to find their man and have babies as “lucky” – this gave you away.
“savoring our independent lives and have thus developed eccentricities and habits that can get in the way”
Doesnt even make sense
She’s actually proud of being an undateable pain in the ass … lol
“But every con game comes to an end. More and more men are and will continue to find out about this.”
That’s the truth of it. I imagine most people have given one ex a second chance, maybe two… and if they weren’t a fool, they’re done with them and done with any other ‘lets-get-back-in-touch’-ers. Especially when they realize that there are younger women out there more interested in them as a person than any of the ‘lets-get-back-in-touch’-ers.
@ Liz
Do you know what a ‘run-on sentence’ looks like?
Given the complete lack of correct grammar, capitalization, punctuation, & spelling in your little ‘tirade’, I’m going to guess you are between 18 and 25…….commenting on this blog with your iPhone.
Liz, you are free to sleep with whomever you wish. Spend your sexual capital as foolishly as you desire. Just don’t expect a white knight to swoop in during your late 30’s to gladly pick up ‘sloppy seconds’.
Men are getting wise to your gender’s little ‘game’, mostly due to the sheer duration of the scam.
You will have your 40s and onward to regret the cock-hopping you did here in the present.
Picking last is not a good strategy in choosing a husband. Just ask aging feminist Kate Bollock.
No one wants to purchase a carton of milk with tomorrows date on it as the expiration date.
If a family, children, & husband are NOT important to you……..keep on your chosen path.
Twat.
” this is dealing with the real people in the real world where there are many shades of grey” .. such as the grey of a nice cat’s fur, or the hair of a middle-aged lady.
I knew people who bought “Art” in their 20s. None of it at all expensive. Or any damn’ good, even forty years later.
Mind you I knew the drunken chancers who churned it out it, as well. Let that be a lesson to you all.
@ seriouslypleasedropit
Hey, that’s a great way to spin it, especially the part about “simply looking for a woman who might be willing to be submissive” – Fifty Shades of Grey being so popular with the wymminz these days.
Kind of an all-purpose cad’s get-out-of-jail-free card you’ve manufactured there. You’re gonna need it!
Jane
Stop this crazy thing!!!!!!
Jane – “Most of us, however, are savoring our independent lives and have thus developed eccentricities and habits that can get in the way of sharing our lives with another person.”
Though my wife was 24 and I was 29 when we married, she was already very independent, as was I. We have never really been “tight” as in the TV romantic way, yet support each others endeavours. To be honest, I never could handle the girly girls that a lot of men seem to want, they are just too dependent. For me, this marriage has been very good. Eccentricities/habits can be the spice of life!
Its tough to settle especially if a woman lived the type of life being glorified in this video
http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/sluts-friendship-women/51af543a2b8c2a5917000070
Also, have a gander of the comment section to the right.
@ Liz
You are quite stupid.
“a women over 30 doesnt need advice to get married unless she is unatractive or has other issues a women at 30 is more sopisticated than her at 20 and will attract the same kind of guy”
– Wrong
“if she wants a family so does he”
– Wrong
“to the guy complaining posting videos of teenagers in bikinis u are a pervert”
-This video is approaching 50 million views. The only possible explanation is the video still. Finding younger women attractive is normal. These girls are in college. You have to be at least 18 to be in college. Every dollar in my bank account says the majority of clickers on that video and thousands of others like it are men. If the girls in that video where aged by 10-15 years and the same still were used it would have drastically less views. Possibly 10,000 vs. 50 million. You will see this all over You Tube. An attractive YOUNG girl makes a pointless video and uses her pretty YOUNG face/body as a video still and receives anywhere from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands or millions of videos within days or weeks. The reason is obvious. If you aged those EXACT SAME WOMEN and made them 30 years old – they would not even get a FRACTION of those views.
“NO its not all about age i know lots of women who got married around 30”
– Learning by example huh? They got away with it. And so can you. Right? This is the problem with women in their 20’s today.
“u guys are so pathetic using religion as a cruch ok seriously what year is it?? ok? you really think any body is paying attention to u? everyone has sex get over it… well except u ha. so seriusly though using religon because you just want to control women with a double standard because its ok for guys to sleep around but when a girl does it shes suddenly a whore? i dont think so. and how dare you think you can tell other people what to do with their sex lifes or how many guys they sleep with as if its any of your business because????? GET A LIFE !”
– You have got to be in your late teens or 20’s. Nobody is trying to control anyone.
@ Liz,
“if she wants a family so does he”
WRONG. NOT when your youth is GONE. NOT when your fertility is GONE. NOT when your history is GONE. That’s what your not getting. You seem to feel this is given. That just because you (she) want’s a family “so does he”. As though it will always be yours for the taking. Any time you want. He will always be there.
WRONG
WRONG
WRONG
You think that because you have your pick of men in your twenties this will continue indefinitely into your thirties and beyond. You are wrong. The QUALITY of man that is both available to you and willing to be a family man drastically declines as YOU get older. Unless you are will to settle for HALF OR LESS the kind of man you could have married in your twenties – you must strike while the anvil is hot. Your window is between 18-27. That is a fact. And I would argue 27 is somewhat pushing it because it’s going to take at least a year of dating to get a proposal. Assuming you ever do. This is what you and the vast majority of young women do not see until it’s too late.
Of course if you and your ilk have no intentions of marriage you should never get married and need to be honest with everyone. Do not pretense behind self proclamations of monogamy and romance and marriage – while you continue to indulge in a buffet of cocks.
Liz wants that Lotsacockasrockas buffet! You go gurlfriend!!
Sorry…don’t mean to break the flow..but must comment to pass some useful knowledge that I never forgot a decade ago.
@Hurting May 31, 2013 at 3:56 pm
“Women do not understand the inherent unfairness of divorce law in this country and none that I’ve spoken to, including family, care to inform themselves.”
I think most do. One ‘manipulative’ woman told me how, during her divorce proceedings, she got to keep most of the marriage assets by postponing court hearings until she found a sympathetic ‘female’ judge. If some women don’t understand the unfairness of divorce law, then I am certain the female lawyers will educate them fairly quickly.
Jane I give you 2, maximum 3 years before the panic mode starts to kick in.
And it will be harder and harder to hide your desperation under your glorious fancy words.
I hope you find the Beta of your “dreams” to settle DOWN with, and then divorce him to get all his money!
ok, I’ll join in now on the thrashing.
@Jane
“We realize that the romantic world is passing us by and that we are appraching our precious ‘sell-by’ dates.”
Remember, once u reach that ‘sell-by date’, you must relabel yourself as a dry-f#ck.
It is amusing to read these comments (in response to Jane) about a women’s “shelf-life” when you are living the exact opposite. I am in my 30s and get more male attention than ever even from men who know I am not single. If you don’t get fat and are not a psycho, it is damn easy to attract men in your 30s.
As for kids, male comments are valid here of course – it is easier to get pregnant in your 20s. Thankfully I have no desire for kids unless my boyfriend manages to convince me to have one, when we’re married but so far he’s got no baby fever either. So, yeah, I am loving my unmarried childless 30s! I do feel sympathy for both men and women my age who are desperately trying to settle down in hope of children though.
@content
Any mildly obese out of shape 30 year old chick can get attention from hordes of beta’s …
BTW grats on finding the chump, at the unfertile age of 30, after riding the cock carousel for over 10 years
Your bf’s thrilled with your roadkill vagina …
@Content
Any 30+ years old man that approach a 30+ year old woman for the purpose of marriage is insane.
On the other side, any 30+ years old man that approach a 30+ years old woman for the purpose of pumping-and-dumping her for few nights is a strategic genius, since he’s just exploiting the fact that woman CONFUSE these approaches with willingness of Long Term Relationships leading to a Marriage.
So tell us, of all those approaches and attentions you are getting, from how many of them you do have the REAL possibility of a Marriage proposal? My guess would be maybe 1% or less…
LOL even your “boyfriend” has not married you!!!
Hm, Content, you obviously cannot read a heading. Advice to a woman in her 30s looking to marry…. Yea, silly twat, if you’re not looking to get married, this advice does not apply to you.
However, the advice about to come from my fingers does.
You will not be content for much longer. Your life is entirely meaningless and you will realise this when it is too late to do anything about it. Then, you will be asking what happened. It is at this point I hope you remember this article and maybe, just maybe, for the first time in your miserable existence… think.
Please, continue though. No man should have to deal with you. Every man is better off without you in his life, your boyfriend included. You will have your crisis, for your purpose on this planet has been squandered away without a thought or prayer. Mark my words, your shelf life has already been and passed… you just don’t realise it yet.
Funny thing is, I have no interest in the commitment and risk of marriage, unless there are kids to be had. In my opinion, a woman who doesn’t want to have children doesn’t really have any reason to be getting married… outside of vanity. So not much interest in a women in her late thirties unless she actually is that special, rather than just thinking she’s that special (when she isn’t) as many women do.
Ok, question. I understand your reactions to Liz’s naivete, but what makes Content unmarriageable? She’s expressed no interest in having children. Is that why? She hasn’t shared how long she and her boyfriend have been together or how serious they are. Just needs some clarification.
A man is nothing more than an item to be acquired for her, that and she has no idea what a man really wants in a woman.
She’s not marriageable because she’s over 30, single and dating, presumably having lots of sexy sex. Everything she does, everything she has ever done has always been about her. She’s selfish, pathetically entitled and has no inkling of what it really takes to have a marriage.
When it really comes down to it, she’s nothing. She is nothing, will be nothing and no one on this planet will ever respect or remember her. She doesn’t even have the luxury of bringing wonderful children into a world to love, protect and raise them so that they remember her fondly and keep her company through a lifetime full of hardship.
She forgets why she’s here. She doesn’t serve our Lord, she doesn’t serve a husband or children, no one other than herself. She’s vanity, plain and simple.
Is that enough of a reason, Hopeful?
Depending on how “boyfriend” is defined in this context, I’m not sure I can go with your “single and dating” conclusion but I can see the rest of what you are saying.
Thanks.
@ content
It’s possible you are one of the exceptions to the rule meaning you are attractive and have maintained 20’s looks in your 30’s. in spite of this you are good for one thing and one thing only. Can you guess what it is? Here’s a clue: it’s not marriage. That’s why men still approach you. Theres still a little bit of free juice left to extract. You won’t realize it until its too late and you are looking up from the trash can.
Remember. You did it to yourself.
At this point your highest likely successful recourse toward marriage is to settle for a man who is half or less of what you could have married in your 20s while you we’re spending your youth “having it all”.
@ content
…But you won’t do that.
Jane, Men got hit way harder during the recession than women. It wasn’t called the mancession for nothing. Then the money that was supposed to be spend for infrastructure was spent on “socialist programs”. What good is that spent money doing now, as compared to a repaired bridge?
@Hopeful “easy to attract men in your 30s.” There is a vast difference between “attract” & serious suitors.
Unfortunately, you have “shot your wad”. The time to meet someone suitable and court – takes a minimum of 2 years. You have backloaded your biological clock and will be forced to hypogamy a 3rd tier man if you can find one to pony up and marry you. Chances are you will stay single (I hope I am wrong)
Btw, I have dated attractive women in their low / late 30-40’s that could turn heads ( yes, they were “exception to the rules / trophy”. However, marriage is a entirely different matter.
Morals and relationship etiquette is deal make or deal breaker. Nearly all women are disqualify just by the way they dress, act, speak.’
Any unmarried women in her 30’s will more than likely join her fellow single sisters.
Here is a idea 🙂
You could attend Mark Driscoll church and advertise “never married / without kids” !!
Seriously though – G_D looks favorably upon real repentance.
Habe you considered informing younger women not to fall into the same trap you did. I think if you did that, G_D would respect that and perhaps your situation around. To expect divine assistance otherwise is quite foolish.
~Shalom
Hi guys,
Can I just say that not all over 30 single women are as demanding as people continue to continherimply here… Some of us are just usually tied up with life’s ups and , in the process,s and are constantly accused of being snobbish. Take me for example. 30 going 31. Working fulltime. Studying part-time postgrad. Living in a foreign country. Not really a loud person by nature (tend to say little to people I don’t know, probably seen as ‘too quiet’). These are four facts about myself.
Now let’s move to the things that people say, both nice and not nice, some true, some untrue. Examples:
Always told how i look like a model.
Always told I have a nice body.
Always asked ‘how can you be single?’ You are a lovely person. Funny and warm.
Always told ‘talk more, talk more’ (???). Get your life happening, dear.
Always told you work too hard, get out and party
Always asked ‘why don’t you drink?’ (I do, I just don’t drink beer and I don’t jump on top of the table. Never did even in my 20s).
Seriously who wants a partner or wife who jumps on top of tables?
Anyway….
So just before we say the over 30 singles are choosy, let’s remember some are usually just ignored by the potential males. They just decide you don’t exist. So what’s a girl to do? Just try and relax, I guess.
Ahem! I meant to type… ‘Continue to imply’ and ‘Busy with life’s ups and downs, and in the process, dubbed ‘snobbish’….
And those married friends that continue to ask why you aren’t dating….every damn day. Gosh…
@Michael Singer
Were you answering my question? I never said it was easy for a woman in her 30s to attract a man. If so, I appreciate it. Your advice is good.
@Michael Singer
Were you answering my question? I never said that it is easy for a woman in her 30s to attract men. If so, I appreciate it.
Unknown says:
June 9, 2013 at 6:01 am
“And those married friends that continue to ask why you aren’t dating….every damn day. Gosh…”
I hope you are talking about your gal-pals here.
As a guy, I never ask this sort of question…don’t care, not important!
This, by the way, is why guys can have and are friends without conflict, we talk about sports, cars, politics, work, whatever, BUT not the love life! Don’t care, don’t want to know!
You gals are unbelievable in what you ask and say to each other.
@ Hopeful – you are correct and that you didnt say that ( I misapplied – my apology).
Deti gave some seriously good advice for women. However, I suggest it is more that a outside makeover. It is a inside makeover of real repentance / major lifestyle/ moral changes.
It is really useless to expect divine assistance without real repentance and payback (this is required in OT/NT as well – it consequences and G_Ds nature).
It is one matter to take a the person out of the environment, it is a entirely different matter to the take the environment out of the person. To get rid of that “taste/lifestyle/” out requires a “seachange” that goes against society, media, and current apostate evangelical teaching and will wretch ones heart/soul/mind to the limit and G_D has a natural order (ie consequences) that will test / try / chasten your repentance ( The New Covenant / Holy Spirit will forgives and will removes bad behavior if one can “hang in there” during the process and figure out that actions / words/ behaviors have consequences and one reaps exactly what they sow.
For some odd reason the Western evangelical churches has misunderstood the Apostle Paul writings and have taught the destructive schizophrenia “grace/favor” supersedes/nullifies the stern commandments of Yahshua /Apostles (including Pauls other writings) and reaping/sowing ( there is no such verse in the OT/NT that shows that). In essence, critical thinking has left the church and left society. The “called out” are the “light of the world” per se.
~ Shalom
@ Michael Singer
Sorry to post twice. I’m glad you clarified your remark about 30+ women expecting divine assistance. The more I thought about it the more it bothered me. God is a mighty God and He can do what man sees as impossible. So anyone can ask for divine assistance with any endeavor. However, as you have pointed out, we must submit ourselves to His will in order to expect these blessings.
@Unknown
Although I can understand your post, it sounds very reactive. Yes, we all get busy. I work full time as well as attend school, so I get what you are saying. But we can’t go through life blaming other people. You can’t control what men do. So focus on what you can control–yourself. That’s the essence of many of the previous posts. If you are seeking a post-grad degree, then I’m sure you’re pretty bright. So you can come up with creative ways to manage your time and prioritize. Ask yourself what is important in life and then pursue that.
Constructive advice: let your friends (married and single) know that you are looking. A lot of career-oriented men are single into their thirties, and many of them don’t have much time for a life. There was a time in which every man I dated was someone I met through a friend, either as a set-up or just someone who happened to be at the same dinner party. One of them was someone my mom set me up with; he was 34, never married, and she talked up what we had in common and suggested that he take me out when I was in town.
Give it three dates to see if there is chemistry. Do not waste a single second on a man who does not have character. Likewise, do not give an extra second to a man who smells of being a commitment-phobe.
Oh, yes, men will tell you their level of commitment to marriage – if you listen. Are his friends and co-worker married? Did he live with a girl for five years and then break up? (Two problems: you’re his rebound chick and he’s more than happy to waste women’s time.) Does he think that you ought to shack up before marriage? (You’re not there to go on a multi-year audition to be his wife; he wants to marry you or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t, find out sooner, not later.) Is he tired of being single? Does he smile when he says that his friends are after him to find someone, please?
Do NOT get into an exclusive relationship until he asks you to. First, you’ll avoid the nonsense in which you commit to a guy who isn’t committed to you, and second, you’ll weed through ‘em faster.
@Ton
“Perspective, darling your naivety is charming, nothing to excuse.”
Well thanks:)
“I did not find out about the ex’s infidelity until recently. Learning it was relief. Most likely she went about sabotaging our marriage because of it, ( the problems and her infidelity seem to coincide) and lifted a burden from me”
Though I’m sorry again about your ex’s infidelity, I’m glad that finding out brought you relief, rather than distress.
“The problem is not that marriages fail, but men bare an inordinately large share of the fiscal burden, as in all, and what not. You simply don’t know if you choose wisely for many years after the wedding, and the courts do nothing to offset the risk.Then there are the marriage which have failed but don’t end up in divorce, which seems to be 50% of more of the “successful” marriages. You know, where there is debt out the ass, no money for hobbies, nothing but a rash of shit for wanting to go do your hobby, no gratitude, no respect, crap cooking, messy house, no sex….. no thanks.”
I really hope that the divorce laws change soon, but more importantly, I hope that marriage can return to the way it once was,( yeah, I know, lol, there’s my naive and idealistic side again) so that divorce won’t be necessary.
“As it stands now, I have no trouble finding girlfriends, and they are easy to replace when they don’t behave. Which is rarely because they know they are easy to replace.”
But what if one day you meet a woman who you feel is irreplaceable? What if she’s the most darling of the darlings?:)
“Most people need the.carrot and the stick to behave well. in marriage, there is neither to inspire the wife to behave well.”
I might think that if the wife wasn’t really in love with her husband, but if she is, then I would think that the fear of losing him and his love would be enough to inspire her good behavior and respect. I’m not married, but if I were, and my husband were to leave (or even threatened it) all the cash and prizes in the world would be of little consolation.
No one is irreplaceable darling. That’s more magic thinking then reality
Same with your notion of love.
@ Grey
“I consider myself an MRA. I am married father of 3 and a soldier in the war on men. Both statement I made are true from me one applies to you and all women. And the latter applies to all women and you if you choose that way of life.”
No, I definitely do not choose that way of life.
“My true stance is the latter as a soldier and a father that loves his children.I am human and I am fighting for a purpose.”
I respect that you’re an MRA and a father who loves his children and wants the best for them. Props to you for that. I’m just not entirely clear how working to ensure all (or most) women end up as cat ladies that die alone will help your purpose.
“You to me are a woman that gives a damn what I told you was sincere and I meant what I posted A pleasant woman as yourself will be fine. There is nothing I could say or do that can change that. You are in the driver’s seat on this one.”
Thank you, and you’re right, I am a woman who “gives a damn.” It’s hard not to with the way things are going. And thanks for your encouragement, I really appreciate it.
“I can say and mean both because both are true.”
Please bear with me, but again, not entirely clear how both can be considered true.
“Go out and make eye contact and smile lose weight if you need to feel confident and know in your heart you are a pleasant woman. You will be blessed.”
Will do and thanks again:)
@Hopeful ” I’m glad you clarified your remark about 30+ women expecting divine assistance.”
Slow down a bit… Whoa !!
Any person looking to get married – NEEDS “divine assistance”. Elizeer bringing Rebecca to Isaac comes to mind. His sole function was to find a wife for his masters son.
– A 30+ ex carousel rider will meet someone just like her if she can find a guy.
– A 30+ moral / chaste woman who is a “disciple” and has been following Jesus and wants to get married has nothing to worry about (this is the exception to the rule). G-D will satisfy her desire and she will reap exactly what she has sown
– A 30+ prodigal daughter that returns to her fathers house after blowing her inheritance on riotous living (no pun intended). Well, that is a entirely different story. While the father will receive her back – that it is just the start. The daughter picks up exactly where she left off but without her inheritance – everything is given to the one who didnt leave(go back & read it). Repentance and breaking out of that lifestyle has consequences.
Do you think it is fair to expect a chaste moral man or a repentant man who has been battered and now figured out the hard way of cause & effect ?
The scriptures do speak of restoration, however, it is after repentance, a severe “beating” and it is never as glorious as it first was and it is with tears.
This is life – one have to lose something to appreciate the value and hold on to it so as not to lose it the second time.
~Shalom
Shalom Michael: I enjoy your comments here. Props to Dalrock for allowing such a wide diversity of masculine thought to blossom in his comments section.
So there’s a Hebrew kid I went to school with. We went to a predominantly Protestant school and were both the odd men out (I was born a Mormon) so we made friends and ran around as boys. We both went off to college but kept in touch off and on. He went to New York City and got married to a hot little She-brew chickie (she was super hot, too, no b.s.) and I didn’t hear from him again until this year.
Turns out this nice Jewish girl from a nice home and religious family was secretly a bull dyke. She has since left him, taken all his money, and is shacking up with her dyke girlfriend. Just for laughs, I looked them up on facebook. They’re there, cuddled up, this still moderately hot woman snuggling with a big, ugly, horsey looking bitch. They’re apparently getting “married” and they have found a rabbi who is going to “marry” them. I wish I was making this shit up, I really do.
Yes, grabbing a young virginal religious chickie is a good start, but it is never a guarantee of an easy ride.
Regards, Boxer
@Boxer
You know you’re screwed when a dyke has more masculinity then the husband …
Unknown says:
June 9, 2013 at 6:01 am
“And those married friends that continue to ask why you aren’t dating….every damn day. Gosh…”
And when those friends will stop asking, that’s when you will realize it is too late to do anything about it. If u want sound advice, take a look at some of the posts above made to Jenn. I think there’s a certain type of guy u want, and if he doesn’t approach u, then nobody else is good enough. I also think u may have enough self-control not to let an alpha cad play u, but u are too vain (with all the compliments that your friends dish out) to allow an ordinary nice guy to even have a chance to date you. If u are really “as hot and juicy as u say your friends say about u” and have no kids, then u shouldn’t have a problem. Either lower your standards, or make the first move. Maybe a bit of both.
Disregard if u have an affinity to the feline species.
@MackPUA
“Traditional marriage & monogamy has to be made satisfying for men”
How do you propose this should be done?
@8boxer – whoa ! My condolences to your friend. That is a kick where it hurts to the nth power. Given what what limited info you gave – the information doesn’t add up and I’ll do my best to ‘frame it”.
I have a quite number of Mormon friends and have the highest regards for them (much more than evangelical “Christians”). The children & family are well behaved, educated, and have the highest morals/chasity I have from denominational Western Christianity (The secular social studies support the outcomes of lower divorce, higher education /morals/ chasity etc….).
How do single & married Mormon women dress, act, and speak in public ? Modestly. I think you would agree.
As you mentioned regarding your friend.:
– “she was super hot”
– “nice home and religious family”
Sorry but “super hot” from a supposedly NY orthodox Jewish speaks quite a bit about her morals. A womans morality can be “generally” be seen quickly in how she dresses, acts, talks, and her devotion to G_D and the scriptures.
Btw, I have attended LDS services and studied Mormon theology quite a bit – I respect the love of righteousness, holiness, and stern obedience and the knowledge of the OT/NT is impressive (btw, my Mormon friends enjoy the banter / challenge / insight from a Jewish Christian perspective).
The LDS Thirteen Articles of Faith and LDS KJ theology / belief is “spot on” even more than mainstream evangelical (ie apostasy) Christianity with the exception the 8 & 10 mentioned in the articles and the Joesph Smith stuff – it is tad bit anti-semitic / Jewish replacement orientated imo.
Regardless, of theology belief – It is the behavior that counts.
Many kudos & blessings.
~Shalom
@Unknown
“Can I just say that not all over 30 single women are as demanding as people continue to continherimply here…”
Who said that?
30yo single woman are quite easy to catch, compared to early & mid 20yo.
Also, I understand the “busy busy busy” argument, but that is NOT an excuse.
Make time for the things that are important to you.
The way I operate, you have ONE SHOT. I ask you out, if you say “I have lessons, I have yoga, I am working, bla bla bla” I run away fast and far.
I will tell you a day and a time, you HAVE to follow me and SHOW UP.
If you REALLY can’t, you propose an alternative date RIGHT AWAY.
Anything different than that, you lose me. Next.
Of course there will be guys that will bend over your needs and they’ll modify THEIR plans to stick with yours… BUT YOU DON’T WANT THEM… That’s not the Alpha you want. You want someone to follow, not someone to be followed by (deep inside you know this is TRUE, don’t deny it).
You say your problem is that you’re ignored… That is BULLSHIT.
I’ve have NEVER seen in my whole life an attractive girl get ignored. NEVER HAPPEND. NEVER WILL.
What you’re truly saying here is: YOU ARE IGNORED BY THE (1%) ALPHA MALE THAT MAKES YOU TINGLE. All other men does not EXIST TO YOU.
You don’t fool me. The poor “model” with a killer body that doesn’t get attention from men, so she’s still single at 30. Yeah. Sure.
Get over your solipsistic character and you’ll see how many good guys are out there for you.
Your responses are super helpful (Buck, RJ, Bridget etc…). And to think that I stumbled on this page by accident!
By the way…I don’t think I am super dupa hot. I think people exaggerate the compliments. I am a very average-looking person. I don’t think am ugly either. Just in between 🙂 But am relatively nice, I think. I was raised to be (my mother is quite religious). My ‘being too nice’ and ‘too quiet’ has been seen as naive a million times…I lose count 🙂 That said, I do have my bad days (I am human LOL)
With regard to wanting a certain type of a guy…I think we kind of all have that, but in all honesty, I wouldn’t consider my expectations high-end. I don’t do the whole ‘he drives a Merc’ talk. Sometimes I suspect that men think I do. The two no-nos I am sure about are ‘lazy guy’ (can’t keep a job, any job) and ‘ladies’ man’ (the ones you see with a different girl every 2 months. I know MANY of those). I don’t want to be one of his many. I honestly would die in cryland and heartache…and depression!!
I do think that men DO decide to ignore people like us. They just decide ‘ok, this nice girl…let me just smile at her and go ahead with my day’. May I add that I have made two first moves, that left me hurt…so, well, I felt that maybe I was not meant to be loved. My first love (he made the first move) didn’t work due to distance, and quite frankly, I think he was just not that into me (reality check here, my fellow 30+s:).
That, there, is the story of the ignored 30 year old who just decides to live on with a whatever will be will be. I am thankful for many other good things in my life. I try not to remember the good things all the time. Helps a lot with general attitude towards life.
*Try TO REMEMBER the good things (typo, once again).
@Perspective
“Traditional marriage & monogamy has to be made satisfying for men”
“How do you propose this should be done?”
I covered this here
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/the-red-pill-going-mainstream/#comment-84825
&
here
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/the-red-pill-going-mainstream/#comment-84708
Given what what limited info you gave – the information doesn’t add up and I’ll do my best to ‘frame it” … As you mentioned regarding your friend.:
– “she was super hot”
– “nice home and religious family”
Well, I met her once, when she was about 20 and I was a bit older. She floored me, and I was surprised and quite in awe that old David could pull such a fine specimen of femininity. Long hair, perfect figure, and outgoing personality. I guess she didn’t find the minor fact that she enjoyed licking another woman’s cunt and asshole to be worth telling the poor sap.
The part of this story that *is* hard to believe is that a rabbi, anywhere, is going to marry two dykes. Of course, I don’t know if that’s true, but the dykes in question seem to think they’ve found one, and are boasting about it in public. While we (Mormons) certainly scrape the bottom of the vagina worshipping barrel, but even we don’t do shit like that (not yet, anyway, and I imagine I’ll be a very old man when two dykes are welcomed into the temple to get hitched).
Robinbreak, I am not a model. I am told I *look like* one.
Oh, let’s not forget to mention the 0.5% kids that do notice me, because apparently, I look ‘around their age’. I am thanful for my genes, but when it comes to wishing that awesome 30-40 year old would notice me, they don’t help me much. By awesome, I don’t mean looks. Far from it.
For instance, I wouldn’t, in my true, honest heart and lungs and every damn breathing item in me, feel right dating a 21 year old. I know some women don’t mind this. I don’t think I look 21. As I said, people exaggerate. Maybe 25…I don’t know. Is this me being the ‘alpha’ thingy? I think not. I just wouldn’t feel right. Relationships and dating is all about feelings. Right, folks????
@8boxer – “old David could pull such a fine specimen of femininity”
Sounds like trophy material in the 9-10 range.
What is Davids story ? From what it sounds like it is a much older man and younger woman. Such mismatches rarely workout.
Btw, you are correct. Any rabbi who is regarded will not marry two men/women. It would be curious to see the rabbi’s credentials/training.
@MS
“A 30+ moral / chaste woman who is a “disciple” and has been following Jesus and wants to get married has nothing to worry about (this is the exception to the rule). G-D will satisfy her desire and she will reap exactly what she has sown”
Great comment Michael. It’s nice to see someone making the distinction between these types of single 30+ women, and not just assuming them to be former (or current) carousel riders, when they in fact have been chaste and are saving themselves for marriage.
@Ton
“No one is irreplaceable darling. That’s more magic thinking then reality.Same with your notion of love.”
A lot of people say that, but then they’re taken by surprise and meet someone who just isn’t like the rest. It happens. For some early in life and for others, a bit later. Same with my notion of love, I don’t really think it’s magic thinking. I’ve observed it in real life.
What you witness darling is two people living the same delusion.
If I had 1k dollars for every woman who has said “he’s the one I love and irreplaceable to me” and went to whoring as soon as her beloved deployed I could own a second GT 500
@Unknown
Sigh! I give up! The world is FULL of men with great jobs and are not players and are single. But these guys are boring, not like your “FIRST LOVE” alpha-f@ck…and it was fun being with him because ‘distance & absence makes the heart grow fonder’…right? Of course! Even now, u think about him & have fond memories of him. He’s stamped into your brain forever!
“My first love (he made the first move) didn’t work due to distance, and quite frankly, I think he was just not that into me”
Oh my dear he was. And he was not only INTO YOU, but INTO ALOT of many other women while u were away.
“there is none so blind as those who will not see”…english proverb closely paraphrasing Jeremiah 5:21
@Perspective
“A lot of people say that, but then they’re taken by surprise and meet someone who just isn’t like the rest. It happens. For some early in life and for others, a bit later. Same with my notion of love, I don’t really think it’s magic thinking. I’ve observed it in real life.”
A woman is NOT able to love anyone but herself.
The notion of love for a woman is a very selfish notion. It refers to what she feels. It’s just about HER and not about the person “loved”. Butterfly in the stomach. Palpitations. Excitement. Emotional turmoil. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.
He is not “THE ONE”. She’s just FEELING he’s the one. Her emotional state is giving him all the value of the word “love”.
The VERY minute those feelings are gone, the men is FINISHED. He will count ZERO to her. NADA. FINITO. KAPUT. Next cock is already on the horizon!
On the other side, the notion of love for a man is an altruistic notion.
I measure the love I have for a person with the degree of the things I would do for her.
Would I drive 1000km to meet her for an hour? Would I commit a crime to protect her? Would I kill for her safety? Would I spend everything I owe to get her healthy? Would I chop a limb or die to save her life?
When a man loves a woman, he’s capable of immense sacrifices for her.
IMMENSE to the level of craziness.
“A lot of people say that, but then they’re taken by surprise and meet someone who just isn’t like the rest. It happens. For some early in life and for others, a bit later. Same with my notion of love, I don’t really think it’s magic thinking. I’ve observed it in real life.”
My experience is that as robin says, men love women. A man will do anything for a woman he loves. He’ll empty his checkbook, spend all his money, work himself into an early grave, throw himself in the path of a bullet or a speeding car.
But the feelings a woman has for a man are more like respect, leading to good feelings, leading to sexual desire. First, she respects him and who/what he is, and more to the point, what he can do for her. Because of that respect, she grows to need him. She feels the good feelings mostly from his attention: giddiness, butterflies, validation. That leads to sexual desire.
@Perspective
You’re spouting feminism, & romance drivel, waiting around for the one, will never happen …
Thats not very realistic, there is no such thing as perfect chemistry
The closest you can get to the one, is somebody who values commitment & a relationship for life
This is why biblical or traditional marriage is so important
It creates “the one” for everybody … by placing commitment for life first
“Great comment Michael. It’s nice to see someone making the distinction between these types of single 30+ women, and not just assuming them to be former (or current) carousel riders, when they in fact have been chaste and are saving themselves for marriage.”
But here’s the thing: If a woman is 30 or above and has never been married and has wanted to get married, something’s wrong, even if she hasn’t been carouseling. What’s usually wrong are one or more of the following:
1. Her standards for men are way, way out of sync with her marriage market value. She has vastly overvalued herself. (by far and away this is the most common)
2. Expecting God to deliver her alpha stud on a silver platter
3. Complete failure to look for available, eligible, marriageable men
4. She has confused her higher sexual market value with her lower marriage market value
5. She’s too busy with her job/career/school
6. She’s physically unattractive
“The closest you can get to the one, is somebody who values commitment & a relationship for life”
and rmax, it’s a curious thing that having a list that’s only that long, and there are still few women out there who could make the cut.
@Deti – I do agree with you on your observation for the 30 year old “general rule of thumb ” average Sunday morning only Christian who was carousing the evening before.
However, the “exception to the rule” 30+ pious, holy man/woman who is a real deal “disciple” (rare as hens teeth) is a different story (I cant overstress the rarity of this in America). They are out there – I have met a couple and it is really a “G_D/ Jesus” first thing (Imo. they are being prepared).
The only way for them to meet is by divine appointment / intervention.
@Deti
Spot on as usual. This sums it all up pretty well:
“But here’s the thing: If a woman is 30 or above and has never been married and has wanted to get married, something’s wrong, even if she hasn’t been carouseling. What’s usually wrong are one or more of the following:
1. Her standards for men are way, way out of sync with her marriage market value. She has vastly overvalued herself. (by far and away this is the most common)
2. Expecting God to deliver her alpha stud on a silver platter
3. Complete failure to look for available, eligible, marriageable men
4. She has confused her higher sexual market value with her lower marriage market value
5. She’s too busy with her job/career/school
6. She’s physically unattractive”
…most of the Christian girls that I went to school with that are unmarried, these are the precise reasons, and they don’t seem to be able to understand them.
Also, this one girl in particular that I’m thinking of, claims to be a virgin, but she is a total cocktease. She lets the guy get to second base and then expects him stop, and tells him, “if you want more, put a ring on it.”
Ugh.
Dear Human Scorch:
This is most likely going to get me flamed, but I don’t care too much. Please see below…
Also, this one girl in particular that I’m thinking of, claims to be a virgin, but she is a total cocktease. She lets the guy get to second base and then expects him stop, and tells him, “if you want more, put a ring on it.”
She’s doing exactly what the religious girls I date do, and if you ask me, that’s fine. In fact, if I had a daughter or sister, I’d be proud of her for holding out. There’s a chaste 10 percent of Protestant/Catholic/Jewish/Muslim chicks who are in the marriage market, as opposed to the no-strings sex market. Sorta frustrating to meet these, but the ones I’ve stumbled across usually make it clear up front.
If you don’t want to put a ring on it with one of these, go out to the night club and get a hot, loose slut for a night full of fun. There is no shortage of women who will fuck immediately.
Regards, Boxer
8oxer:
Seconded; so long as she’s consistent and does this with every man she “plays” with.
Advice to a woman in her thirties: Don’t. Buy a cat; learn to knit; study the NT, but please don’t hold yourself out as marriageable, not now; it is unfair on any man who may have thoughts of marriage and family to present yourself to him as a suitable candidate: You are not. The man can do a lot better but if he can’t, he should not be thinking about marriage either. There may be exceptions, but usually it turns out badly, so don’t. Sorry.
“Also, this one girl in particular that I’m thinking of, claims to be a virgin, but she is a total cocktease. She lets the guy get to second base and then expects him stop, and tells him, “if you want more, put a ring on it.”
“Sorta frustrating to meet these, but the ones I’ve stumbled across usually make it clear up front.”
So should these girls just have sex? Or should they lay down the law, no physical contact whatsoever? I’m confused. It could be this attitude that drives girls to the carousel, among other things. They are thinking guys won’t like them unless they have sex with them.
A 30 plus year old woman with the eyes I have now is not marriage material on the face of it. Something is for ever wrong with that chick. The basic nature of women will be she is not capable of being a good wife due to what it takes to live on your own until you reach 30 plus. To go 10 years with out marriage for a marriageable woman should be impossible if not for something about the woman period.
@ Hopeful:
“So should these [religious] girls [who go only so far and no farther] just have sex? Or should they lay down the law, no physical contact whatsoever? I’m confused.”
No, these girls should not just have sex. They have every right to say “I’ll go this far and no farther with physical contact, unless and until there’s a ring/date/wedding night”. This is how they weed out the dickbags and the players and the cads. A quality guy will respect that and if he really likes her, will stick around. But he’ll also limit his investment and commitment, and will apply gentle and ever-increasing sexual pressure.
For the record, I have no problem with men being dickbags and players and cads. They are looking out for their own interests. If she has a right to look out for herself; those men have every right to do so as well. And these men who want fast NSA sex and who won’t ever offer commitment will move on to other targets.
“It could be this attitude that drives girls to the carousel, among other things. They are thinking guys won’t like them unless they have sex with them.”
Let’s get the terms straight. When you say “guys”, you’re talking about “hot, alpha studs, top men, high status men”. You’re not talking about “all men” or “most men” or even “many men”.
You know, I keep hearing this: Women are giving up sex because they think that by doing so they’ll get the top, hot alpha stud’s commitment. It might be that some women think this, but I can’t see her making the same mistake over and over and over again – sex with hot alpha leads to either (1) pump and dump or (2) STR of no more than a few months or (3) rarely, a position in a soft harem — without figuring out that her strategy of “sex leading to relationship” isn’t working very well.
The more likely explanation is that these women are willing to take their chances to get however much of the hot alpha man she can get, and they’re willing to do this because anything with an alpha is better than commitment from an unattractive beta. If she gives up sex, she at least has a slim chance for a long term commitment. If she gets that, great. If she gets a STR, not so great. If she gets a harem spot, eh. If she gets pumped and dumped, it’ll hurt, but she got bragging rights and some sex out of it.
The bottom line, at least how it looks to me, is that women choosing to give up fast sex are taking a flyer on possible commitment; but if they can’t get that, they’ll take the sex. Because sex with a hot alpha beats being a beta “loser’s” girlfriend or fiancée or wife. That’s how it looks to me; and my experience is increasingly backing this up.
“A 30 plus year old woman with the eyes I have now is not marriage material on the face of it. Something is for ever wrong with that chick.”
Oh, I don’t know, grey. I don’t see the situation as totally hopeless. She will have to embrace deep, deep change. She’ll have to change her attraction vectors and widen them considerably. She’ll have to get used to the possibility she might not have kids. She’ll have to lower her standards for men a lot; and come to terms and grips with the fact that the hot alpha studs she wants for marriage are probably out of her reach. She’ll have to accept that for the hot alphas, she was good enough for sex/STR/pump and dump/soft harem; but not good enough for commitment or marriage.
Then the question becomes whether she can be attracted, really attracted, to the men who will be willing to offer commitment. Because this is the root problem – most of the over 30 women getting married are marrying men less attractive than the men they fornicated with; and when you get down to it, that lack of attraction eventually surfaces in some form or another (usually vague “I’m not haaaaappy” complaints).
Then the question becomes whether a man, armed with red pill knowledge, will decide that, all factors known and all things considered, she is worthy of his commitment. Some of these women are quite well preserved physically and are staving off The Wall. Some of them have domestic skills and can be quite nice. These are few and far between, though. Almost none of them, however, are virgins, and many of them have partner counts well into double digits (and all the baggage that goes with that). It’s just a matter of how much risk he is going to be willing to take on. One thing a man should demand – in addition to attractiveness, she has GOT to bring a lot to the marriage table, and I mean A LOT. She needs to bring a sweet submissive personality and a truckload of domestic skills. She cooks gourmet meals, she cleans house, she’s willing to be a SAHM; she washes his skid marked underwear, she does all or nearly all light and medium duty housework.
To add to my comment/reply to Greyghost:
On an over 30 woman altering herself to make herself attractive for marriage, I don’t see most women being willing or able to change that much so as to make herself marriageable.
“You know, I keep hearing this: Women are giving up sex because they think that by doing so they’ll get the top, hot alpha stud’s commitment. It might be that some women think this, but I can’t see her making the same mistake over and over and over again”
Thanks, deti, for clarifying. You’d be surprised how often people repeat the same thing and expect different results.
“One thing a man should demand – in addition to attractiveness, she has GOT to bring a lot to the marriage table, and I mean A LOT. She needs to bring a sweet submissive personality and a truckload of domestic skills. She cooks gourmet meals, she cleans house, she’s willing to be a SAHM; she washes his skid marked underwear, she does all or nearly all light and medium duty housework.”
This helps a lot. I can agree this is rare because I don’t see a lot of these qualities among my friends.
@ Hopeful:
“You’d be surprised how often people repeat the same thing and expect different results.”
But see, I’m not convinced this is entirely accidental. I don’t believe women are doing this with the hope of snaring commitment. And if they are, then I have to ask: How many times does such a woman need to make this mistake before she finally figures it out? If it’s a “mistake”, there are women out there making this “mistake” five, ten, 15, 20 times.
How many times do you have to get burned before you figure out the stove is hot?
How many cads and players have to pump and dump you before you figure out they’re not going to offer you anything beyond a few nights of “fun”?
Hopeful: You’d be surprised how often people repeat the same thing and expect different results.
Indeed. Insanity, in various context, has several definitions (all of which can overlap)….
— Psychologically, “insane” means, unable to distinguish reality from fantasy.
— Legally, “insane” means, unable to distinguish between right and wrong.
— Science is based the principle of experimental repeatability. Hence, Albert Einstein formulated the scientific definition of insanity:
“Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.”
One thing I have observed (in real life) is an alpha male getting tired of their alpha female (not sure if that term applies) even though the girl is hot and there are children involved with the pair. Then consequently I have seen that alpha female giving up the alpha male in disgust and then trying (successfully because she is still hot and can play the game pretty good too) for another alpha male in a committed relationship. Of course this happened at that crucial timeframe age of 30+. I wonder if she thinks that the beta’s are not worth it or if the alpha’s are the best she can do since she has the alpha taste in her system. Maybe it’s really about the sex, where SEX=VALIDATION; “I’m still desirable.”
[quote]Let’s get the terms straight. When you say “guys”, you’re talking about “hot, alpha studs, top men, high status men”. You’re not talking about “all men” or “most men” or even “many men”.
You know, I keep hearing this: Women are giving up sex because they think that by doing so they’ll get the top, hot alpha stud’s commitment. It might be that some women think this, but I can’t see her making the same mistake over and over and over again – sex with hot alpha leads to either (1) pump and dump or (2) STR of no more than a few months or (3) rarely, a position in a soft harem — without figuring out that her strategy of “sex leading to relationship” isn’t working very well. [/quote]
Um, as an actual women who has dated men, not a man speculating about what it’s like to be a woman who dates men, I’m here to tell you that you are *wrong*. The betas refuse to go without sex; the alphas are much more patient (as they don’t have anything to prove).
I’m here to tell you that every guy who was a jerk to me about my desire to wait (which they *all* knew going into a relationship with me) was a total beta male. They think that women put out for alpha males, or that they deserve sex, or that if they could get the chaste girl, they would be total studs. Or something. Either way, their personalities are so wrapped up in denying their beta-ness that they are demanding jerks about sex.
Maybe the problem is that you all take a beta definition of alpha, i.e. “beds lots of women,” while I take a different definition (“strong, in control, smart, successful”). But the latter men tend to be much better about waiting, and much nicer in the process.
Or maybe I should just title this thing, “Dating insecure men really s–ks”.
bridget, do the patient alpha men stick around afterwards? Is there a point when they get tired of waiting and go for other women who may be less attractive but who put out quickly? Do the betas who demand sex stick around after they get it?
Deti, do you remember when SSM said something like men don’t understand how badly women want alphas? That explains the carousel. Everything else is hamster spin.
I’m pretty much of deti’s mindset… a woman can draw boundaries prior to marriage, so long as they’re well meant. Meaning that they aren’t simply tests, ego stroking, manipulation, etc. etc. When it is those things, a man proceeds knowing what he’s in for if he puts a ring on that woman’s hand. I don’t tend to proceed if they’re not boundaries but tests.
Bridget
Alphas don’t ask for sex(the definition of an alpha is a man the women desire sexually that is it the reason he is alpha doesn’t matter.) A beta will ask for sex because he has no game. When I was on it I never ask for sex. You just did what it took and she asked for sex. (less is more) I’m fat and old now and out of practice. The alpha was not waiting for his prize he just knows how to pull ass. And you as you stated appreciate alpha dick.
Deti
I like how you tried to be nice and describe a situation where a woman at 30+ is marriageable and once you really thought about it it kinda came apart on you. Ignorance is bliss. Knowing things makes this different. 30 plus year old woman is unmarriageable That is why they do the single mom routine because they don’t want the guys that think they are marriage material. And the guys they want know them hoes are for fucking not marriage. (there is a big difference)
“That is why they do the single mom routine because they don’t want the guys that think they are marriage material. ”
?????
Hopeful says:
“That is why they do the single mom routine because they don’t want the guys that think they are marriage material. ”
?????
“You’ll make some lucky girl a great husband one day” Translation…That isn’t going to be me.
They bed the creeps and bad boys rather than someone they know would make a good husband.
My understanding of men is growing. Apparently I don’t understand women at all.
@Bridget
Judging by your avatar, My guess is you’ve never been with an alpha, hence your confusion … lol
“One thing a man should demand – in addition to attractiveness, she has GOT to bring a lot to the marriage table, and I mean A LOT.”
– I’m unsure of what you mean by “A LOT”. An attractive girl in her 20’s with a low partner count almost feels like striking a diamond in this technologically advancing morally defunct 21st century era.
“She needs to bring a sweet submissive personality and a truckload of domestic skills. She cooks gourmet meals, she cleans house, she’s willing to be a SAHM;”
-Ah. This is what you meant by allot. Good luck. I’m not sure where you plan on finding this in addition to youth and beauty outside of insular ultra conservative religious communities. ”
“she washes his skid marked underwear”
– That’s just revolting and disgusting at once. Any man with “skid marked” underwear deserves to be single. My advice: Call his mommy and ask how to wash.
“she does all or nearly all light and medium duty housework.”
-Good luck. Having a women keep the house so the man can focus on income needed to supply the house seems like a standard benefit from a time long gone.
@Michael
Most women overseas, expertly cook, clean & give a damn about their kids
Expecting diamonds from a slut, no chance
It appears that ‘bridget’ has also been posting around the Web as ‘theobromophile’.
Michael, your womanly lack of knowledge about male anatomy is showing, dear.
Only the very daintiest of SWPL men can avoid the old tramlines, it’s an unavoidable corollary of the wearing of trousers and engaging in heavy labour.
We lack the huge globes of fat that women employ to lift the cloth away from the critical aperture.
And then there’s the hair …
Maybe we should revert to the traditional and extremely masculine Bronze Age European garment of the kilt/foustanélla/and whatever the Galicians call it? I’m in.
Hopeful
A woman bringing a lot to the table is one thing to me. The chick gives a damn about the people around her. It is unnatural and torture for a modern women to do that but that is the price women pay for the feminine imperative. To help out the ladies I say this as advise to an old bitch trying to land a chump. Read stories about old cat ladies that died and nobody missed them. And then see the world in this way “it is in your own selfish interest to see the people around you starting with your husband to be better off emotionally and spiritually with you in their life. Measure your worth by the joy of the people around you and not by how much of a burden you are on the people around you and calling that empowerment.
Bringing something to the table is not being SAHM (in today’s female mindset a worthless bitch) or anything else. Just be a helper to the family. If you are doing so much you are stressed out and burden the family with misery you are a burden regardless of how much you cook clean or money you make. A woman’s greatest gift to the family and the one she was made by god for is emotional cheer for her family. It starts with sex and goes from there and women with sense can build up such good will in her family and circle that she is immune to hard ship. Solid men have a sense of duty and loyalty to good people a young woman submits to her man as she ages the man will love her when she is no longer young and beautiful in appearance. The good will she has built is strong. When you see that you know the man has a good wife. You can tell by the way he carries him self around her. The whole household has a fell of secure strength and warmth.
The average woman today because of the law cannot gina tingle for a man that can appreciate such a woman. An alpha is actually a defective man what makes him alpha is his sexual desirability of a women and that has no basis in any civilized logic what so ever. In the so called oppressive patriarchy she would use this on her most productive man because it was in her selfish interest. Just following her natural nature as a women. This is what happens in a feminized society from this set up read this article on game and scale this up to western civilization. http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/wrapped-around-his-finger/
Notice how insecure and unsustainable that is. But everyone is “happy” That is how an insane and irresponsible society looks and why women didn’t vote.
Bridget:
Let me start by saying your avatar description of yourself as a “Massachusetts-based lawyer” speaks volumes, and tells me much about where you’re coming from. It tells me you approach life from a sexually “liberated”, politically liberal, radical feminist worldview. That alone informs your opinions.
I’m sure you’ve dated “actual” men. The men here have actual experience with actual women too. Wives, girlfriends, dates, sex partners. Your statements are based solely on your own experience. My statements are based on not only my experience, but on the collective observations and experiences of many of the men posting and commenting here and elsewhere. So I am not engaging in speculation here. Perhaps your limited experience might not be as informed as my conclusions gleaned from the observations and experiences of myself and others.
There is a lot of difference in the descriptions we use here as opposed to the definitions you try to foist on us. The kind of men you claim to like (“strong, in control, smart, successful” ) are classic alpha type traits. So are the men who “bed many women”, which you erroneously call betas. The term “beta” as it’s used around these parts describes men who get no sex or very little sex.
Finally, the term “beta” as you’ve used it – the guy who won’t wait for sex and becomes a jerk when sex isn’t forthcoming – are what feminists term “NiceGuys ™” – men who follow the rules women like you say they should follow to get dates and sex; and then get understandably frustrated when the girl won’t respond or put out (despite the frothy, fulsome promises of what a “turn on” nice men are).
It’s not about speculation or “insecurity”. It’s about observable truth.
Michael, June 15, 9:42 pm:
When I’m talking about a woman bringing A LOT to the marriage table, I’m talking about a 30+ woman sincerely looking for marriage. What I mean is that she has to bring a lot of sweet, submissive, feminine personality and domestic skill to offset her age and sexual experience and baggage. She needs to be Miss Happy Homemaker, nice, sweet, and sexually available.
And when I used the hyperbolic “skid marked underwear”, I was emphasizing the domestic skills and sweetness. The point is she does what the household requires without complaining. The male counterpart is cleaning out the sump pump, unclogging the toilets, replacing electrical and plumbing, and heavy housework – all of which typically fall to the man.
If I am going to have to do those tasks without complaining; then she can by God wash the smelly tighty whiteys.
With regard to her doing all or nearly all the light to medium duty housework – well, if I am going to be expected to earn six figures so as to keep her in her 2500 sq foot house, I am not going to do laundry or dishes when I get home from working 12 hours a day in the world where I have to fight and slay dragons. I kill the dragons so she doesn’t have to. By the same token, she can wash the dishes so I don’t have to. That’s the tradeoff, my friend.
Now, if she wants to keep a house AND slay the dragons, that’s HER choice. But if I’m going to take over the dragon-slaying, breadwinning functions, she will have to do the housework functions.
To add to what Deti posted up. Just be a cheerful and helpful member of the household. If you are an empowered twat and think the rolls are “unfair” or sexist just be a non burden. It is unnatural for you as a woman but that is the cross you bare and what faith and prayer is for.
‘The Betas refuse to go without sex; the Alphas are much more patient’, so says Bridge (the Massachusetts based lawyer) at 05.19 on the 14th inst. Ye gods, that is as back to front as it could be I’d say. Still, I have never been to Massachusetts so perhaps it is different there, but why, do I get the impression that Bridge is having trouble finding that Christian Grey type to ravish her yet all she ends up with is Betas who get their wicked way?
Now I see: Bridge is a chocolate-loving wanna-be lawyer, having already chickened out of engineering. WTF? Motherhood would have made her happier than chocolate I guess, if only those Alpha Dudes – rather than those boring Nice Guys ™ – would settle. Has law ever made so much as one woman one bit more desirable? I always felt that dating a female lawyer would be a bit like going gay: two people otherwise indistinguishable – rather like marrying yourself. Can you imagine the conversation when they both return home after a hard day proof-reading or whatever it is they get up to. Did anyone see that movie Secretary; that is how it should be, – and yet another Alpha called (Edward) Grey; that Maggie Gyllenhaal was cute however, and not a degree to her name.
Opus
That movie secretary was pretty neat when it came out. It would be something to see it now with my new eyes. You just suggested something for me to be on my day off.
@ greyghost, 11:17am
“A woman’s greatest gift to the family and the one she was made by god for is emotional cheer for her family. It starts with sex and goes from there and women with sense can build up such good will in her family and circle that she is immune to hard ship.”
This really got my attention and got me to de-lurk. You jogged my memory of something I read perhaps two decades ago. In Victorian England the woman’s role was seen to be “the Angel of the family.” This was in the context of some feminist (Virginia Woolf?) declaring that it was precisely this concept which had to be “destroyed” to save women.
Ok I wik’d it and evidently it was a poem, “The Angel in the House.” I wouldn’t be surprised if someone referenced this before.
SPINSTERS IN LOS ANGELES AKA THE SPINSTER CAPITAL OF THE WORLD: UPDATED REPORT THIS MONTH
In hopes of women over 30 recognizing reality I would like to add additional Spinster encounters to my monthly report.
1) Mid to Late 30’s white/redhead career spinster at the Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf in a business suit. Smiled at me and started making conversation. No wedding ring.
2) Mid to late 30’s white/blonde in Hospital Scrubs smiled then constantly looking at me (10-15 times over) while I purposefully ignored her. No wedding ring. Kept trying to get me to notice her. Vibrations indicated she wanted conversation. I was busy staring at the 23 year old yonder.
***In my mind any 30’s+ women without a wedding ring is a Spinster. The fact she is “seeing someone” is irrelevant to the definition.***
3) Mid to late 30’s white/jet black haired spinster. No wedding ring. I was at the Plastic Surgeons office in Santa Monica getting a consultation (need to get ready for Ukraine). A women walks and pays $400 something for Botox injections. She had a VERY Aristocratic demeanor. Front loaded and snobbish. It’s important to emphasize this because it was very noticeable. Physically she was an older looking 35 obviously very committed to diet and exercise. Yet it didn’t matter to me. I didn’t know her from her twenties. So she felt “old” “dried up” and “infertile”. Just like all the other unmarried Spinsters here. Ms. Aristocratic attempts to pay for her Botox injections and her card is declined.
“Maam I’m sorry it was declined”
“Why?”
“I don’t know Maam would you like to try again”
(swipe)
“No I’m sorry it’s still showing declined”.
“It shouldn’t do that”
(swipe)
“I’m sorry it’s showing declined”
“Hold on”
(Mumbling)
I didn’t see the rest her uncomfortable conversation because I was called to the waiting room. But after I left the doctors I saw her again. She was outside at the bus stop waiting on public transportation.
🙂
@ Smith
“In Victorian England the woman’s role was seen to be “the Angel of the family.””
My Mom.
I would like a 30+ year old unmarried women to explain to me why this video will have over 50 million views.
It must be because of the girls achievements, income, sense of humor, confidence, ambition, determination, intelligence, sense of humor, social standing, number of friends, traveling experiences and impressive conversational skills.
@Opus: I don’t think I’d ever marry a lawyer, so I’ve never dated a woman. The average woman might know how to screw you over in a million possible ways, a female lawyer definitely knows. The only thing preventing a female lawyer from exploiting their husband, is their own sense of honor and love. Such traits are a rare find in a woman who isn’t tempted daily with the knowledge that they can be malicious with the full approval of the law, and be rewarded for it.
Sure, they’ll write and say, “Men are intimidated by my intelligence.” When the truth is, it’s their familiarity with implements of torture, and their work as a torturer.
‘ never dated a woman who was one’ on the first sentence.
@They call me Tom
Women may say, that men are intimidated by female intelligence, but that is the usual female projection. I tend to find that woman who have degrees and the like are intimidated by any man no less well qualified and smart than they are. Men do not gain degrees and the like to impress women; that is only a means to an end – to be successful and thus attractive to women. Men thus wear their qualifications lightly; the same cannot be said for women as only a brief examination of the writings of females lawyers on blogs like this one make all too clear – they want you to know that they are lawyers (yet when has one even attempted to help out, as Novaseeker and myself were doing on the latest thread! – consider Bridget posing above). Women are not going to be one bit more attractive to men because of their qualifications, and their purpose in acquiring degrees and the like is merely to put themselves in the presence of top males. The catch is, that, being so full of their own superiority (a typical female trait) they forget that the purpose of their qualifications was not merely to be superior but to catch a man. They thus reject the very men to whom they might otherwise have been well suited. Female Lawyers so it seems to me frequently bear the same relation to men as Transvestites do to women. They may wear shoulder pads (metaphorical and otherwise) but they are faintly ridiculous. All the qualifications in the world will not stop them from acting and thinking like women as soon as they are put under any pressure or as soon as their privilege of having a Vagina is threatened.
As most female lawyers are utterly unattractive and fail the boner test, you Tom need not feel that you have in any way missed out.
women today are certainly nothing like the Real Ladies that we had back then.
@RB
“A woman is NOT able to love anyone but herself.
The notion of love for a woman is a very selfish notion. It refers to what she feels. It’s just about HER and not about the person “loved”. Butterfly in the stomach. Palpitations. Excitement. Emotional turmoil. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.
He is not “THE ONE”. She’s just FEELING he’s the one. Her emotional state is giving him all the value of the word “love”.The VERY minute those feelings are gone, the men is FINISHED. He will count ZERO to her. NADA. FINITO. KAPUT. Next cock is already on the horizon!”
I agree there are women who very self-absorbed and fickle when it comes to love and relationships, but aren’t there men like that too? Is there a difference between male and female fickleness? For example, I know of men who’ve proclaimed to be in love with women they were dating only to disappear after the first or second date. And even when NOTHING physical happened, just in case anyone is thinking that this might have been a pump and dump scenario.
Perspective:
I’m fascinated by how wedded you are to the refrain “BUT MEN DO IT TOO!!” Every bad female behavior seems to your mind to have a male counterpart that is just as destructive.
Sure there are men who can be selective about dating. I’ve refused to date a woman further after one or two dates; mostly because I could tell she was not interested. The looking around, the recoiling from kino, the seething disrespect in her eyes were my clues. Other reasons were that I could tell I wasn’t interested – she didn’t smell or feel or “taste” right. Body agenda. I remember kissing one girl goodnight at the end of our first date. It was like kissing my sister.
Any man who says he’s in love with a woman after one date is mentally unbalanced. He won’t get another date. It’s not possible to be in love with a woman after one date.
I really don’t know the basis of female fickleness. I can only presume it’s because the guy does or says something on the first date that repulses her – like says he’s in love with her.
@deti
“I’m fascinated by how wedded you are to the refrain “BUT MEN DO IT TOO!!” Every bad female behavior seems to your mind to have a male counterpart that is just as destructive.”
Thanks for your reply. I’m honestly not “wedded” to the refrain, “BUT MEN DO IT TOO,” it’s just been my observation that just about every issue men have with women, can be found in some degree to some extent in certain men too. My reason for pointing this out was not to pick on the guys, but simply because I’m interested in knowing more about how these differences manifest with men, as opposed to women.
“Sure there are men who can be selective about dating. I’ve refused to date a woman further after one or two dates; mostly because I could tell she was not interested. The looking around, the recoiling from kino, the seething disrespect in her eyes were my clues. Other reasons were that I could tell I wasn’t interested – she didn’t smell or feel or “taste” right. Body agenda. I remember kissing one girl goodnight at the end of our first date. It was like kissing my sister.”
These are some of the differences I was curious about. Thanks for explaining.
“Any man who says he’s in love with a woman after one date is mentally unbalanced. He won’t get another date. It’s not possible to be in love with a woman after one date.”
Agreed for the most part, however, if the woman is mutually smitten, I’m not sure a second date would be totally out of the question. My friend’s parents met in the 70’s when the Mom was 18 and the Dad was 24. After their first date they decided that they wanted to marry. They did, and have been remained happily together for over 40 years now. Yes, I know this sounds like an exception, and I won’t argue that is probably is, but it does happen. Rare, but still possible.
“I really don’t know the basis of female fickleness. I can only presume it’s because the guy does or says something on the first date that repulses her – like says he’s in love with her.”
That she was repulsed might be a reason for the fickleness, but I’ve heard of both men and women suddenly losing interest, even when nothing really went wrong, and even no “I love yous” were uttered on the first date.
@deti
Just wanted to add that while I think it’s true that saying “I love you” on a first or second date is moving way too fast, in some cases,the couple may have already known each other for a while, or were even friends prior to dating. If that’s the case, then they’ve most likely already had a chance to get to know each other as people. In that scenario, I still think it would be best to hold off on saying “I love you” right away, but I don’t think that having feelings for each other or even being in love (just not saying it right away) by the first or second date would be entirely impossible or unrealistic if there’s already some kind of history (even if just platonic) between them.
defective men do it too. The behavior described for women in normal for women.
It is true “man do it too”.
How many men? Few of them, as this kind of behavior is much more common between women.
For what reasons? The vast majority is for sexual reasons… either she is not sexually available, or not willing to put out in reasonable time, or she is not “clicking” with him – which translates in “she’s not (going to be) fun to have sex with”
The point is, a men interest is very easily turned on by following easy steps.
A woman interest has to be earned with hard work, day by day, is not cumulative and is never granted. Not to mention the steps to follow are often unclear (most men are oblivious of them) because the women expect men to read their lunatic mind.
As I’m reading this site questions have emerged. First of all, according to this post women in their 30s looking to marry should shift their focus from men in general to marriageable men. This is good advice, however, as many of you have mentioned, women don’t know the difference between men in general and marriageable men. How would they approach women? Would they approach women at all? What are the distinguishing characteristics?
My other question has to do with a woman’s virginity. So hypothetically, say man interested in marriage meets woman interested in marriage who he considers marriageable (she’s agreeable, a great cook, family oriented, a virgin, etc.). So if she’s a virgin and is saving herself for marriage, that means she will not sleep with aforementioned marriageable man until she’s married, right? And man would want to date this woman for at least two years? How would this square with the important role sex plays in men’s lives? I feel I’ve missed something here.
Hopeful:
Marriageable men are the ones who say they’re looking for wives. They usually have good jobs, stable employment, and family and friend connections in and around the area. They tend to be average to slightly above average in initial attractiveness, with at least some alpha confidence/dominance traits.
Cads and players are not marriageable men. Cads tend to pump and dump, and then disappear. Cads push hard and heavy for as much sex as they can get, as fast as they can get it. Players are “cads with integrity”. Players are almost always up front about the fact that they’re not about marriage.
I doubt a man would need two years if he has a woman who is marriage material, who is a virgin and who is saving herself for marriage. One year is probably more like it. If both of them are reasonably sure they are right for each other, are attracted to each other, are head over heels for each other and want to be married, then after 6 months they can get engaged, and then have a 6 month engagement and get married.
@Hopeful
Virginity is not a requirement.
I personally would like to marry a woman with less than 10 sexual partners on her personal history.
That means when I ask her how many sexual partners she had, her answer should be “three” or less (given she would lie about that for sure, dividing the real number by 3, unless of course she’s a virgin).
I have been told by every single one of my date’s mother that I am superb marriage material… It’s a pity that their daughters never agreed with that…
I am actually grateful I am not married to one of those girls. It would have been a huge mistake.
Also, I am atheist. So I don’t put myself under the highly stringent standards of Christians and such.
And yes, I would like to have sex with my partner before deciding whether or not she’s worth getting married.
@Hopeful
I would echo Robinbreak’s comments……virginity is not a requirement.
I don’t believe any man prospecting for 30+ year old women would kid himself he’s going to find a virgin.
It sounds like you do want children, so be honest about that up front (not on the first date up front) but let it be known (tactfully) that this is important to you. It will help filter out players & cads.
Certainly agreeable, good cook, & family oriented are a good start. I would trade ‘agreeable’ for ‘willing to defer to my husband’. If you can accept that obligation, then perhaps you are in it to win it.
Attraction is VERY important to a man, so always have your game face on, and take care of yourself (slim & trim, and ready for him).
Where to find this person is another matter altogether. Many marriageable men have checked out……as they feel the risk/reward is not there. You will not find them on Match.com, etc.
Start pursing group interests, hobbies, crafts,……….whatever. Marriageable men who have checked out are filling their time in other ways. The best of them will not be drinking beer alone in the basement.
But you may find them taking a home improvement seminar at a Lowes or Home Depot.
OR
A car show
OR
A boat show
OR
a cooking class
I think the best advice is to start meeting people in general, but not at the bar/club/dating website (cads, & players ALL).
If you can think of a gender neutral interest (i.e. Men would be in attendance) that interests YOU…..then you already have something in common & an opening line.
YOU may have to approach him, as I said……….he may have checked out. It doesn’t mean you can’t coax him back into the game.
BUT……you will have to convince a prospective candidate that there is MUCH in it for him.
Convincing him you are a go-getter career girl is NOT going to get you any traction.
Best of luck to you Hopeful.
Casey
@ Hopeful
A low partner sex count is important (as Robinbreak pointed out).
No man wants to marry the town strumpet.
A partner count > 10 for a woman in her 30’s = a woman who cannot pair bond.
@Hopeful: Ideally it wouldn’t take two years if both parties are honest with each other. The two years is to try to outlast any attempted deceptions. After that, physical affection can go a long way without leading to a pregnancy. It can go a long way without even nudity. It’s not the pinnacle obviously, but it is sustenance.
What no one is telling Hopeful is what IMO she most needs to understand.
That is, becoming married for American men is now an act of insanity if producing children is unlikely, and a woman already in her thirties is pushing the limits of potentially giving a husband children. I suggest she do the following:
1) Tell any prospective husband that she absolutely wants children, and that she would not feel any need to delay starting to have them.
2) That she accept that she may not be able to use her own eggs for all (or perhaps any) of their children, and explicitly tells PHs this.
And, 3) that she focus her husband search on men potentially able to afford fertility treatment.
As her appropriate mate age bracket is mid-30s to at least late 40s, #3 should not be that difficult unless she has some other major drawback or hindrance to becoming a prospective wife and mother.
(Examples of major issues to a PH would be warpig general looks, no boobs, men’s hair length, tatoos/piercings, morbidly obese, low libido, N>>6, city/state/region residence immobile, owns any cats or large numbers of any animals, overly specific on religion, height obsessed, major debts/spendthrift, chemical dependences, no useful skills (especially domestic), already has children, trash hoarder, gambler, vegetarian, weird religion, feminist, criminal record, history of >1 previous marriage, and such .)
@ Luke
What you outiine is sheer insanity to attract a potential husband.
She will frighten off any potential mate by being so ‘me’ centric.
Honestly, would you want to hear your life’s agenda laid out for you like this on a first date?
The true insantity for modern men is having children at ALL! The risks are enormous, and the rewards few in the current environment. Starting a realtionship with the girls agenda at the head of the class is a sure-fire way to divorce.
If she wants a HUSBAND more than she wants CHILDREN, then maybe she is marriage material, and will subsequently be blessed with a child.
If she wants a CHILD more than a HUSBAND, then she should go get a vile of frozen sperm and leave men out of it.
Hi again, Casey. Perhaps you can clear up something for me. Basically, why TF should a red-pill man marry UNLESS he is sure he wants children, and with that particular woman? So, unless children are likely, marrying Hopeful or any woman has to be considered unwise and ideally unlikely. And, since telepathy is unreliable at best, a woman near the Wall as is Hopeful has to TELL PHs she wants kids.
Re your advocating bastardy, I hope you did not mean it. Have you seen the life outcome statistics for those children?
http://www.dottal.org/LBDUK//effects_of_fatherlessness.htm
“…children from a fatherless home are:
5 times more likely to commit suicide.
32 times more likely to run away.
20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders.
14 times more likely to commit rape
9 times more likely to drop out of high school.
10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances.
9 times more likely to end up in a state-operated institution. 20 times more likely to end up in prison.
“That is, becoming married for American men is now an act of insanity if producing children is unlikely, and a woman already in her thirties is pushing the limits of potentially giving a husband children…1) Tell any prospective husband that she absolutely wants children, and that she would not feel any need to delay starting to have them.”
This sounds like the man is just a sperm donor. Although I understand making wishes known sooner rather than later, it’s also important for a man (and anyone for that matter) to feel valued.
Hopeful, I got remarried SPECIFICALLY because I wanted children (healthy, genetically mine, and raised a certain way, i.e., SAHM and homeschooled). My wife and I got married not quite 3 years ago. We have happy, healthy twin girls about a year old, with near-term plans to add a boy. (We went the fertility route, with an egg donor and gestational surrogate.)
We met via an online dating site, and I specified in my profile what I was seeking. My wife thought that sounded cool with her, and the rest is history.
P.S. Hopeful, I’m a (fully-involved) FATHER, not just a “sperm donor” (and banker).
Many men would find something stir in them at the prospect of becoming a father.
@ Luke
Thanks for pointing that out to me. I am aware of the statistics.
No, I am not an advocate of bastard children & fatherless homes.
Nor am I in favour of the removal of the pivotal role of father through divorce.
If Hopeful is TRULY a marriage minded woman (and for the record, I believe she is) then she needs to attract a man by putting Him 1st & children 2nd….not just for today, but always.
Any man looking to get married probably wants children & that discussion will come up in it’s own good time.
Leading with a list of ‘Here’s what I WANT from the relationship’ rather than ‘Here’s what I BRING to the relationship’ is a mistake.
Perhaps quoting Ephesians 5:22-33 would attract the right type of mate on a dating site. What men really want is the god-given right to lead their families
Now that you two friendly guys have given such wonderful advice as related to reality. I can see where the cat lady thing comes in. Thee is no man gushing over his beautiful bride for this woman that time has past forever. She most likely should see herself as a loyal companion and helper to an older man in his fifties that just needs to have someone affectionate and kind to share his life with. Legally that is not something a man can have in a marriage. And every one here knows. And no woman Hopeful included has something like that in mind. Women who do see them selves that way are married. and stay married for a long time (death will end it) Marriage to women today is what am I going to get (gina tingles and security, and no submission or even the slightest obligation) To women that is a happy marriage and is fully supported as the norm by law and culture (churchian church too) A nineteen year old low to no sexual experience (may 1 or 2) can pull that off with a combination of blissful ignorance (sexual innocence) just starting out economically ( relative security easy to achieve) She is so damn sexy the groom is motivated to please her and sexually aroused by her so all is good. Oh yeah and she is not responsible for a damn thing. Now all is good. Society under a feminist imperative isn’t going to let that stand. (no reason to explain it again but it is why we have a manosphere)
My advice to Hopeful is first off you are not going to get that marriage. My suggestion is to seek the way of the helpful companion and focus on what you have to offer. Don’t do it as a process but make it a part of who you are as a person. Look for a man that appreciates that and responds positively to kindness. Learn to gina tingle from such a man . Most guys that have natural gina tingle will not appreciate kindness it is something they are entitled to and can get from any bitch younger and more sexually exciting than you. Keep that in the back of your mind. Also remember guys in that age range live in full misandry at least as long as you where alive and younger men know no other life. Be a source a soothing comfort and mean it. He knows by law you are just a burden on him but hey that lie will be much more a effective and than plastic surgery and make up for the lie of sexual beauty.
@Luke
It sounds like you have a nice family. You targeted a very specific subset of women (and your wife obviously had a very specific type of man in mind when she met you and you fit the bill). This isn’t a bad thing by any means and you don’t need me to tell you that. But for me, and other women in their 30s looking to marry, we would need to balance that direct targeting with a broader approach, with no more than 5 must-haves. I’m guessing that you and your wife have a strong relationship that would continue even after your children are grown and out of the house?
Thank you, Hopeful. I believe the answer is yes to your last question, but its relevance?
I’m 51, and my wife is near my age.
We just hope to still be alive and healthy (mentally as well as physically) when the last kid leaves home. We honestly both wanted this life, where we’re forever bonded as parents as well as husband and wife. If we’d just dated, who knows if we’d still be together not even 4 years later (and you know from my above posts that I’m dead set against entering known-in-advance barren marriages).
Dating by any name is transient, and unlikely on average to last even several years.
Family lasts generations, even beyond one’s death. That is what we wanted to make.
(Okay, I admit that I see some patriotism in our family-making, and further see that having children THAT WERE RAISED TO VALUE FAMILY is better old-age security than a gov’t/corporate system that’s diving fast while trailing smoke, but those are hardly our chief motivations.)
@ Greyghost
You underestimate me.
I can fling mud at feminist spinsters all day long when required.
I just don’t feel it’s required in this case (from me anyways).
I do appreciate your bringing the cat lady thing to the table though, as fear is a powerful motivator.
A magazine for Hopeful to subscribe:
http://www.alaskamen.com/
@Luke
The reason I asked the question about the durability of your relationship is because it reveals a flaw in the drive-to-procreate wish. It’s not a bad wish, but when it is elevated above the person you are hoping to procreate with, that can raise problems after the procreating and raising are done. Case example: couples who stay together for the kids and then divorce when the kids go off to college. And of course, the numerous examples of divorce presented on this website.
Casey
Not meant to throw stones at you fellas. Just to add to what you all had for her. Hard subject to discuss with out ruffling feathers. My guess that is why so many have such a hard go at it. Myself included. Never had these conversations as a young man but I do have a 7 year old son that will have this conversation as long as I live. Along with my daughters.
The cat lady thing was to show the frustrations an older woman will have when you really start to talk about actually getting married in your thirties. Looking at the conversation and applying it to reality it explains a lot about female loneliness that is never ever brought up during the you go girl cheer leading.
overall Hopeful you are getting an inside look at the world most women never see or even consider. Love to see how things work out for you. I have 2 daughters I need to work on in a few years to see them into adulthood.
@ greyghost
No offence taken….it is a tough topic to broach. But a real & necessary one.
My son is being given daily doses of red pills.
He’s 14 and his generation has a better chance of seeing a turnaround to this mess than mine.
Hopeful:
I don’t know a lot about you from your comments. From what I can tell, you’re a 30+ woman looking for marriage.
Read Dalrock’s advice from the original post.
Here’s my stock advice.
1. Consider if you really want a husband. For example, if you are really busy with a rewarding career, then you’ve demonstrated you don’t really want a husband and you aren’t really available for one. If you haven’t cared about your physical appearance and have let yourself go, then you’ve demonstrated by your actions that you don’t want to do what it takes to attract and keep a man. Consider it.
2. If you’ve considered it and the answer is “yes” you do want a husband, then do the following.
3. Do everything you can to improve your physical appearance. Weight down, hair long, makeup on. The biggest physical appearance problem women have in the contemporary US is their weight. Lose. The. Weight. Never go out unless you look your best. (Do not waste time or effort being pissed off that guys like hot women, pretty women, pleasant looking women who are “easy on the eyes.” We’re hardwired this way. It just is.) You’ll be pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to meet the threshold “pretty” and “Nice” standards.
4. Be nice. Be pretty. Don’t get fat. Be available.
5. Lower your standards in the kind of men you are willing to date. You’re not as attractive as you were at 20, 21 or 22. You’re just not. It’s a fact. You will have to widen your attraction filters. You will have to consider men you might not have considered a few years ago. Consider men who earn less than you. You will have to consider men who aren’t as physically attractive as you might like. You will have to consider men who are divorced and/or have children. You will have to consider men who are five, 10, perhaps even 15 years older than you.
You need to find a man who you can be attracted to and whom you can follow; but you can’t afford to be picky. Your age and other factors, including competition with younger women, limit your options.
6. Be careful of the younger man who shows interest. He’s probably a cougar chaser looking for a fast pump and dump.
7. Date with purpose. This is serious business. You’re in this to find a husband, not to “play the field” or “have tons of fun” or travel. Politely and kindly decline further dates with men whom you know don’t fit.
8. The “how many men have you had sex with” question will come up if things get serious. Answer honestly. He WILL find out if you don’t.
9. It’s possible you might not be able to have children; or that a compatible man might not want children. Given your age and the pool of available men, you might need to jettison this as a “must have”.
10. Consider covenant marriage (if you’re religious, marriage in the church through a ceremony without the formalities of State legal marriage). But check the laws in your state.
Deti,
Your advice is well meaning, but besides considering older men and possibly divorced with children (which I agree with) most of your advice to Hopeful seems tailor made to encourage her to marry some guy she isn’t really into and will find it hard to remain with simply for the sake of getting a man. I could be wrong, though.
Elspeth:
Could be. She needs to find a man she’s attracted to (sexually attracted to, who turns her on) and to whom she can submit.
The point of the advice is to get her to consider that the pool of men who might – MIGHT – fit that bill could be wider than she thought.
Most women only see the hot alpha studs. Look, Elspeth, Hopeful, and all the rest of you – I get that you wanted George Clooney/Denzel Washington/Cary Grant/Sidney Poitier. OK? I get that. Hey, I wanted a combination of Maria Von Trapp, Jane Russell, Jenna Jameson and Sophia Loren.
But there aren’t enough George Clooneys and Denzels to go around. There just aren’t.
There aren’t enough Sophia Lorens and Jane Russells to go around either.
I had no choice but to accept that I wasn’t going to get Sophia/Jane/Maria/Jenna. Why can’t women, especially 30+ women, accept that George/Denzel/Cary/Sidney isn’t coming for them either?
At some point, you take what you can get, or you move on with nothing. We all have to make our choices and live with them.
@Hopeful
Here’s a few good blogs/articles/books I found online. They’re pretty great reads which I thought offered a lot of realistic and helpful advice.
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2013/02/female-game-for-women-in-their-30s.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tracy-mcmillan/why-youre-not-married_b_822088.html
http://www.amazon.ca/Why-Youre-Not-Married-Yet/dp/0345532929
http://www.gettheguy.co.uk/about-us/
http://www.amazon.com/Get-Guy-Learn-Secrets-Deserve/dp/0062241745
Lol, I thought I was just sending the links, but as I soon as I hit post comment, the images came up! The cover for the book “Get the Guy” is a bit over the top, but don’t let that fool you, the contents are actually pretty good, and worthwhile to read.
I don’t think most women are looking Denzel or Clive Owen. I’ll use Owen as my white substitute for Clooney, whom I do not think is at all hot. Now that we have that out of the way…
Contrary to popular Deti/manosphere assertion, most women understand that they will have to marry a mere mortal man, with all that the imperfection and humanity that comes with him. There are plenty of men around who are attractive enough that a woman needn’t marry a guy who doesn’t do it for her.
That was all I was trying to say.
Elspeth, she’s almost certainly going to have to go for a guy that’s 5+ years older than her, more likely 8-12. The unattached guys her age want and can get younger women than her. She needs to be one of “the younger women” for a guy, who thus will be nontrivially older than her.
Aren’t you familiar with this sort of graph?
“There are plenty of men around who are attractive enough that a woman needn’t marry a guy who doesn’t do it for her.”
Really? Glad to hear that some woman out there thinks so. I’m hearing an increasing chorus of female bloggers joining in the “Where are all the good men/There are no good men left” chorus. Perhaps you should clue Susan Walsh and her commenters in on your little secret.
And your refrain above sure isn’t what I hear from the MSM, which provides a constant drumbeat of No Good Men Left/All Men Are Pigs/He’s Gotta Be Hawt/No Bald Men/No Fat Dudes/You Need The Looks and the Money and the Swaggah and the Attitude or You Ain’t Getting With Me.
All I’m trying to say is if women want to find a man, they’re going to have to tune out the culture, leave The Herd, and widen their attraction filters.
Agreed, deti. The saying amongst the “not got a clue yet” female crowd in some large cities is the “6-6-6 Rule”. That is, if he’s not at least 6 feet tall, making six figures, to deep six him. That’s a good way for women either or both of sub-9s/older than mid-twenties to find themselves at 50 childless and alone (but for their 10 cats), wondering just when their Prince Charming will come. (Hint: before 33, he married the sub-26-YO who understood that he was still on his way up, and that most men aren’t romance novel heros.)
If a woman’s really, really, really wants to marry a man, move to a military town, be height weight proportional, make a man feel valued and you’ll be married in no time. Poor bastard
But if you really love a man, do him a favor and don’t ruin his life by marrying him
Luke says:
June 28, 2013 at 4:17 pm
RE: The “6-6-6 Rule”,
The way I heard it from the sex-in-the-city gals I knew went a bit differently.
To Wit;
at least (6) feet tall, (6) figure income, at least (6) inches of meat, or forget it.
I actually heard tarts ask those questions to guys who approached them, that and “what do you drive?”. I was asked a similar series of questions once and my response, “oh, so you’re for sale, sorry, I don’t date prostitutes.” The look on her face, priceless!
What I found laughable was the crass, entitled, demanding attitude of these women…AT 20-28, MY how things change when the ticking of the clock becomes deafening! hahahaha
Ton says:
June 28, 2013 at 5:55 pm
“If a woman’s really, really, really wants to marry a man, move to a military town, be height weight proportional, make a man feel valued and you’ll be married in no time.”
Western North Dakota (Williston, Dickinson) or Alaska also do pretty well that way. I was in Anchorage, Alaska in 2005, and saw a guy that looked like a college swim team captain walking down the street arm-in-arm with a real warpig, an absolute bowser.
Deti, great advice for all of us women, but let’s remember not all women are after looks. Personally looks are a bonus (I was like this even in my 20s). I would not want to marry a good looking man with a personality I can’t stand.
I still affirm that men choose to ignore good girls. By ‘good girls’ I don’t mean dressed in convent attire and praying all day. For instance, they will ignore the ‘kind of nice’ girl just dancing with two or three friends with a drink in her hand (alcohol or non alcohol) and hit on the drunk girl pulling another girl’s hair in the club or making fun of people’s outfits (mean, loud etc). Men love the dramatic girls. I once liked a guy at work, and I think he knew I did. He just never asked me out. Next thing I heard, he was dating the girl who had slept with 4 different collegues. The girl everyone was whispering at work about. The kind that breaks families. That was the one he chose. So yes, men will go for the drama queens, and leave you there with your ‘nice girl’ personality, no matter how good you look. That’s my experience anyway.
Unknown:
It’s true that for women, attraction is not all about looks. In using the Clooney/Clive Owen/Denzel paradigms I’m talking about confidence/dominance, not just looks.
“I still affirm that men choose to ignore good girls.”
Eh, no. Let me hamsterlate this sentence to bring out its true meaning:
“I believe that the men I find attractive and that I want to date choose to ignore good girls like I believe myself to be.”
First, Unknown, you have to acknowledge that you’re not talking here about the 80% or so of men you never notice and would never give the time of day to. You’re talking about the hot, attractive men who you like. Problem is, all the other women like them too. They go for the hottest women, the best looking women, the easiest marks sexually, the ones drowning in male attention.
The man you liked at work was an attractive man who likely had his choice of women to date. If he weren’t, you would not have noticed him.
“Men love the dramatic girls.” “Men love drama queens.” Eh. Wrong again. Alpha studs pump and dump drama queens, or have brief flings with drama queens. Men only like them because they tend to be easy targets for fast, easy sex.
Deti, you are right about ‘the ones I find attractive’ bit, but not on the ‘hot guys/men’ part. I always tell people this…if I were after looks, I would be married by now. I know some really good looking guys…they are just not nice people and to me, beauty with no character or heart has always been a bit hard for me. I am a relatively nice person. Not perfect, just nice, so I would love to settle down with someone relatively nice too (not perfect). The other good looking man I know sleeps with anything female. In this day and age of diseases, I can’t take that risk. I am gearing myself to probably spending the rest of my life alone. Love wasn’t meant for me, I guess.
Unknown, I hate to hear you being so down on yourself. Haven’t you met “relatively nice” guys? I’m sure you know some now. Are they all in relationships?
@ Unknown
You are looking for someone with BOTH good looks and a great personality.
That man is already married; probably to someone younger than himself.
A dwindling marriage pool, coupled with a dwindling SMV will make for a lonely life if you maintain unrealistic standards.
Game. Set. Match.
@ Unknown
20% of the men are having sex with 80% of the women.
You only see the 20% swath of men.
Time to choose a more porous filtering process.
Unknown:
How old are you?
—Your age is relevant because at this point in your life it could well dictate and limit the age and kind of men who will be available to you for marriage. If you’re 30+ you might consider men a couple of years younger but this is not likely. More likely, you’ll need to consider men in their 40s, divorced men, men with children, and never-married men willing to settle down.
How many sex partners have you had? (“Sex partner” means a man whose penis you have touched in any way for the purpose of sexual gratification.)
==Your partner count (“N”) is relevant because a man interested in you WILL ask about this. He doesn’t want overused goods; he doesn’t want damaged goods. Women with N of 0 to 3 will probably be OK. But women with very high Ns (10 and up) tend to have a very hard time bonding to their husbands. And it isn’t just penis-in-vagina sex that counts. If you’ve been intimate with a man and you’ve in any way touched his penis, he is a sex partner and he counts towards your N. At least he will to any self-respecting man. You don’t get to fudge your count down by saying BJs and handjobs and anal don’t count.
What kind of field do you work in or are planning to work in?
What is your annual income?
–These are very relevant because generally, men in less prestigious or less remunerative positions won’t be attractive to you long term. You’ll eventually seethe with resentment at the fact that you outearn them. If you’re a lawyer in private practice, you’ll be hardpressed to make it with a construction worker or a starving artist or a truck driver.
What extracurricular activities besides work do you engage in regularly? Do you regularly meet and interact with single men around your age or a few years older? (For purposes of this question, exclude regular church attendance.)
–Designed to assess how accessible and available you are to men, and how you meet them. You’ll meet more men at a coed swing dance or ballroom class than you ever will in a cooking class or at the bars. Church is excluded because there are veritable mountains of anecdotal evidence from the manosphere that church is one of the absolute worst places for both men and women to meet each other – bad for men because one nuclear rejection spoils the entire barrel; and bad for women because there just aren’t many attractive men who regularly attend church.
How many serious long term relationships have you had, ever in your life? (A LTR is one that lasts at least six months)
Have you ever been in love?
—These questions are designed to determine your experience with men, how you find them, how you keep them, and your general attitude toward relationships with men. In other words: How important is love to you? How important is it to you to have a man in your life; and what are you willing to do to make it work? Do you really want a man in your life, or does the thought of being that passionate and caring about one man scare the hell out of you? Does a man cramp your style? Are you willing, really willing, to live with, care for, and be with a man?
In the last year, how many dates have you been on?
In the last year, how many different men have asked you out or otherwise shown sexual interest in you? Of those men, how many were you sexually attracted to or interested in?
–These questions are designed to find out how accessible and available you are for dating and relationships. Attractive women get interest from men. I’ve never, ever seen an attractive woman who presented herself well, yet who involuntarily went without male company. Not once. Not ever.
In my experience, if an attractive woman is having trouble generating interest from men, one of the following is generally happening:
a. She is too busy. She’s working all the time, she’s got too many things going on. She doesn’t have time for a man.
b. She is too picky for her attractiveness level. She is turning down suitable men because she doesn’t think they’re hot enough. Her standards are way too high.
c. She is a bitch. She’s not nice, she’s mean, she’s unkind, she’s unpleasant to be around. (These kinds of women usually get pumped and dumped by the best looking men, who keep them around only as long as they aren’t a hassle.)
d. She hangs around the wrong venues. She doesn’t meet men because there aren’t any men, or are very few men, in the social and professional circles she moves in.
e. She limits herself only to the best men and refuses even to consider men to whom she could be attracted, but won’t give them a chance.
The rest of this is going to sound harsh. Please bear with me.
If you are not too busy, you’re in the right places, and you’re neither picky nor bitchy, and men still don’t seem interested in you, then you are not presenting yourself physically in the best way you could. In my experience this means at least one of the following:
a. You’re overweight. You need to lose weight. (This is by far the most common problem.)
b. Your makeup and hair don’t work for you. You need to put on tastefully applied makeup. You need a good hairstyle. Long hair is better than short hair.
c. You don’t wear flattering clothes for your body type and shape. You need better, more flattering clothes that accentuate your good points and conceal or downplay your bad ones.
You will be very pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to meet most men’s attractiveness thresholds. It is not difficult at all, really.
Last question: Have you ever asked out any men you were interested in? If not, why not?
–This is designed to determine what you do to demonstrate your interest. We don’t live in 19th Century Puritan, Victorian era England. You’re free to ask out men you’re interested in. If you are interested in a man, what do you do to let him know that? Do you seek him out to talk to him? Do you touch him? Do you make it very clear, crystal clear, that you are interested?
Just a few things to think about.
@ Deti
A very thoughtful, articulate, concise, & accurate list of advice.
Allow me to add a couple observations of behaviors that scream “low esteem” and automatically detract points from a woman:
– Tattoos
– plastic surgery of any kind
– overly high heels
– revealing clothing (womans fashion of today were street walker clothing of yesterday)
– swim / gym ware clothing selection
– “ALTITUDE”
Deti mentioned a very important factor of having a high partner count:
More partners = less feminine behavior.
Very feminine women (ie chastity seen mostly middle eastern culture) is incredibly attractive and much different than sexual attraction. It can attract any man, much longer lasting, and can bring about the a desired healthy outcome for both parties.
Its too bad Western women have traded this in for the disastrous short cut educated feminized stumphet approach.
I believe it is mistaken to think of Victorian England as Puritan. Puritan England was in the middle of the Seventeenth Century, and the Puritans were sent with guns and Bibles to New England so that the rest of us could enjoy the remainder of The Renaissance in peace. It was during the Victorian era that the concept of The Boyfriend was invented, enabling young women to have a pseudo-relationship but of course entirely on their own terms so the fact that The Boyfriend now seems to be dieing seems to me to be a thoroughly desirable thing. I have some delightful cartoon drawings of a very risqué nature (from one of my Victorian ancestors) which suggest that Victorians were in fact rather free and easy although of course without the benefit of Abortion or The Pill. What the Victorians did have was a belief in Marriage as the essential economic unit, although as can be seen from the Sensation Novels of the 1850s a sympathetic view towards bastardy.
Casey:
Girl game is mind-stultifyingly simple. All a girl has to remember is:
1. Be pretty.
2. Don’t get fat.
3. Be nice.
4. Be available.
That’s all there is to it. It’s really just that easy.
Deti,
Very good advice as always. I’ve read a little of the interview questions for prospective wives Dalrock posted a little while ago, so I have some sense of what kind of answers you’re looking for, but if you wouldn’t mind enlightening us as to answers that are acceptable so that Unknown and others can know where they fall? Since you’re writing….
@ Deti
Yes, spot on.
Yet, many women fall flat on their face with that list: due entirely to following the standard feminist dogma.
OR otherwise stated…..the opposite of your list.
🙂
@Hopeful ‘o I have some sense of what kind of answers you’re looking for”
Interesting comment.
How about telling the truth for starters ? Nobody likes being lied to – nobody.
Your statement is quite indicative of your morals (or lack there of).
It is pure hypocrisy to have higher standards than what you have for yourself.
@ Deti – I would suggest one on one counseling for women (even workshops) and charge by the hour.
Hopeful:
Let me give you a couple of real world examples.
1. 32 year old woman from small city. Attractive, good job, outgoing, well liked. Lots of dates, LTRs and STRs. Problem? Too many ONSs and flings. Partner count probably above 30, had had at least three abortions. Finally settles down with man who carried a torch for her since high school after she (accidentally on purpose) got pregnant at age 33. She’s still married to him, but she didn’t do nearly as well as she could have had she purposed herself on marrying in her early to mid 20s at the height of her SMV.
2. Second woman: I’ve known her since our first year in college, when she was 18. Hard midwest 8, very physically attractive, never without male company. Unmarried at age 29. Met husband through online dating; married to him 10 years, hopelessly unattracted to him. Problems?
–high partner count. N=5 by age 19; N probably over 15 by age 29.
–hung out in wrong venues. Worked as a special ed teacher; only hobby was semi-professional community theater in a major metro area. (Education=female dominated. Community theater = mostly gay and bisexual men. The few straight men who get into it are either effeminate omegas or quickly snapped up.) Relied on meeting men at bars, which contributed to high N. Dated and got attached to men she had no chance of marrying because of religious, political or cultural incompatibilities.
–fluctuating weight; couldn’t keep it under control.
–emotionally distant and unavailable. Wouldn’t let men get close to her; when they did, she blew up the relationship.
3. 30 year old woman. Attractive 7. In superb physical shape and conditioning. Worked as an elementary education teacher, past career as professional dancer and dance teacher. Problems?
–never put a priority on relationships and finding a husband.
–high N, mostly ONSs and flings; inability to keep relationship going. Contracted herpes from last LTR.
–acts like a bitch. Is mean, nasty, sullen and angry towards men (hence propensity toward pump and dumps).
–pays attention only to the very best looking men; had grown accustomed to attention from top men; attention now plummeting and her SMV nosediving because she has to disclose she has herpes.
Deti’s advice is excellent but I wonder about his final suggestion – that a woman interested in a man should feel at ease to ask him out. Perhaps I am just too old-fashioned, but that does not seem to me to be good advice. If a woman asks a man out, she runs the risk of rejection; this is something women are not used to. Given a man’s unending thirst for women the possibility is that the man will accept the invitation and perhaps even turn up the date (I have to confess however that whenever I have been asked out, I always accept, and then flake – had I wanted to date them I would have asked; as I don’t, I did’t) but he will form the idea that the woman is either easy or desperate. If, however, the woman waits for the man to ask her out, she will not risk rejection and although perhaps then disappointed by failing to receive an invitation, no one need ever know of that disappointment and thus she will look neither desperate nor easy nor effectively lower her SMV. There are many ways for a woman to encourage a man without it ever being possible to suggest that she is doing so and thus without running the risk of lowering her market value.
most women understand that they will have to marry a mere mortal man
Says the woman who snagged a non-believing alpha.
Hopeful:
In response to yours, re “answers I’d be looking for”
Here is what I would want in a wife were I looking now (I’m not, and even if I were single I wouldn’t marry at all in this SMP:
1. Lifetime N= 5 or less.
2. No STDs. No abortions.
3. No tattoos. Piercings: ears only.
4. No prior marriages. No children, whether bastards or by prior marriage. (Exceptions made for widows; however, a widow will have to qualify extremely highly in other areas if I am to take the place of a deceased husband/father).
5. Demeanor is feminine, demure, modest, kind, pleasant, and submissive.
6. Long hair. Good makeup. Reasonable weight. Feminine, modest clothing.
7. Burns with passion for me. Literally begs me to have sex with her.
8. Wants to have children, and stay at home with the children until the youngest is in school. Then wants to return to part time work to help with expenses.
9. Is willing to subordinate her needs to those of the family and to me.
10. Is not pining away for a past alpha or failed relationship.
11. Openly disdains sluts.
12. Openly disdains “the herd” and refuses to follow it.
13. I am the most important human being in her life. I rank above her parents, her family of origin, even above our children.
14. No history of any kind of mental illness or addiction.
15. No history of treatment for mental illness.
16. Is not currently taking or using hormonal birth control.
17. Not on any maintenance medications for chronic health conditions.
If a woman asks a man out, she runs the risk of rejection; this is something women are not used to
Equality as a learning experience.
There are many ways for a woman to encourage a man
Like compiling an n count, a few stds and a college debt.
“How about telling the truth for starters ? Nobody likes being lied to – nobody.
Your statement is quite indicative of your morals (or lack there of).
It is pure hypocrisy to have higher standards than what you have for yourself.”
Let me clarify my questions. I was not implying anyone lie to anyone. I was simply asking for a barometer to see where the ideal is and where I and whoever else reads this blog stands. Dalrock did a post on interview questions to ask a potential wife, so that is what I referring to when I said I had some idea of what the criteria is. I wasn’t even expecting anyone to write such thorough responses, but just thought everyone would link me to that post.
“Is not currently taking or using hormonal birth control.”
I may have referenced this before, but women (probably a very small percentage) are on birth control for other reasons besides controlling births of children. For those with heavy menstrual cycles and other PMS symptoms that affect the quality of their lives, the hormones in birth control pills can be beneficial. Of course, if you are only using them for regulation, about 3-6 months of taking them works and then you can stop. I know men hate hearing about menstruation so I won’t talk anymore about them. If a woman is on birth control long term or for a long time, I can see that as being a red flag.
“Not on any maintenance medications for chronic health conditions.”
You mean serious chronic health conditions?
Opus:
The advice for a woman to start asking out men is based on a few things.
1. The over-30 woman is racing against time. She’s run out of time to sit back and let the attractive, high status men vie for her attentions while she selects the best one(s). That train has left the station. She needs to find men she’s interested in and gauge their interest. She can’t wait for suitable men to ask her out.
2. The men who will be interested in her (and more suitable for her) won’t be as assertive as the alpha studs she’s used to. She will have to seek them out.
3. If she wants to find a husband, she needs to bear some of the searching costs Dalrock has written about. She needs to bear some of the rejection risk, the monetary outlays, and the emotional investment and commitment.
4. She needs to make it crystal clear she’s interested in a guy; and the best way to do that is to break the ice herself. There’s no room and no time for ambiguity, coyness, subtlety, cloying double entendre, or “cuteness”. She needs to be a bit more direct. If things are going to happen, she’s going to have to help make them happen.
@ hopeful:
“Not on any maintenance medications for chronic health conditions.”
“You mean serious chronic health conditions?”
I mean chronic health conditions. If a woman between ages 28 and 40 is already on meds for depression, diabetes, hypertension and arthritis, how will her health be when she’s 45? 50? 60? 65? Will I be stuck caring for an invalid? Now granted, some women are injured or contract these illnesses after marriage through no fault of their own. But… too many women are overweight, or suffering from chronic medical problems, before they even get married. A man should not be saddling and sandbagging himself right out of the gate, starting off a marriage with a woman with serious medical problems. It’s harsh, but Marriage 2.0 is risky to begin with. A woman with those kinds of problems will soon either (1) start ballooning up; or (2) suffer markedly decreased libido. She just will be either too sick, too tired or too much of both, to give him frequent sex.
Sex is the one tangible benefit a man gets from marriage. Why should he saddle himself with a woman who is likely to be unable or unwilling to give that to him?
Granted, this is a different male view of marriage. But then, marriage 2.0 is different from how marriage 1.0 was.
Do not marry a widow. every widow I know would trade the life of their new man for the return of deceased husband. You will always be number 2, there will be no gratitude etc
@deti,
> 7. Burns with passion for me. Literally begs me to have sex with her.
How would this play out for committed Christians? I doubt I would want to marry anyone who would have sex with me prior to marriage since that would show that sex inside marriage is not really that big a deal for her.
@ mikesinger:
“Deti: I would suggest one on one counseling for women (even workshops) and charge by the hour.”
Meh. Might sound like white knighting or even sappy and short sighted. But those three women I wrote about? I know each of them personally. And I could list 10 more with similar stories. These are just women that I know.
The best that can be said for their satisfaction levels in their relationships and marriages is that they are “not unhappy”. What the hell is that? Is that some kind of great life goal? “I want to grow up to marry a man I’m not unhappy with”? “I want to live a not unhappy life”?
Some of the women I know in situations like this are downright miserable. They screwed up, they know it, and they can’t fix it.
It pains me to see women end up like this – high N, can’t make a relationship work, thinking they can snag a great guy for commitment if they just slut it up and put out for him right away; they don’t improve themselves; they are bitchy and nasty and miserable. Maybe some out there will listen. I sure hope so.
When dealing with women for extended periods of time, not unhappy is a pretty good outcome.
@ Hopeful
Honestly, re-read Dalrock’s post.
Deti has given you excellent advice, and prior to that……..Dalrock did an excellent job of laying it all out on the table as well.
I’m hoping you aren’t just regurgitating questions until you hear the answers you like. If so, go ask your girlfriends how to land a guy.
Their action list will be more palatable, and will include all the requisite feminist claptrap that will ensure you stay single for life.
OR
Get busy with the list already provided by Deti, Dalrock, & other men who are telling you what they want in a mate.
@Hopeful
I meant exactly what I said. If you need to ask what a barometer for morals/values then it is quite obvious you had sex at a very early age, come from divorced home devoid of values, high parter count, and will use sex as a substitute or a means to get a man to “like you”.
Men or women of high morals/values want the exact same in a partner. They will have a general tendency to be prudish and conservative.
I have caught women lying about regarding very crucial information. Self control, strong morals, and relationship with G_D is a amazing filter. Many woman say they want a “Christian man” but in reality they do not. The scriptures are based in well defined male/female roles that are equally important. The catch is that real Judeo-Christian marriage is anti feminist and considered degrading to American woman ( are you up for obeying your husband and calling him “sir” ? I didnt think so…..Btw, the man is be equally respectful and affectionate in return)
Any woman who is not married by the age of 30 is suspect. Though I “court” older woman (older single or divorced ). The age the divorced women marry and have children is quite indicative.
The best barometer simply look how a woman behaves, her friends, and her family (Apples do not fall far from trees). If a woman lies regarding her partner count, it will be seen in her to emotional health. It is quite easy to change the outside, the inside is still the same and the bad behavior will eventually exhibit itself. This has made for very messy & hurtful break-ups imo.
Btw, ANY woman that requires “hormonal birth control” to control “heavy menstrual cycles and other PMS symptoms” is subject to uncontrollable mood swings and is overly spiteful AND overbearing for 3 weeks of the month – this cannot be denied.
@Brad “> 7. Burns with passion for me. Literally begs me to have sex with her.”
Let me take a stab at this. Btw, my ex-wife was my first and I court and practice abstinence.
The way a “committed Christian” handles this is using Boyle’s law (ie analogy) and courting. The “fitness testing “to find out if one is a “committed Christian” or a typical pew warmer. This requires time, observation, and lots of prayer to actually know(de-facto) if the other person is a “committed Christian” and equally yoked material.
The reason I mentioned Boyle’s law is it is like a cap on a radiator – the “cap” is present to keep the “temperature” and “pressure” manageable. Remove the cap to reduce the pressure and a car will overheat due to the increased temperature.
Therefore, having ” attraction tension” under control is present and needed during the courting process. It takes participation both parties but the man leads the way in this.
Hope this very rough analogy helps.
@ Deti
I can see why “pains me to see women end up like this” but the the overall problem is nobody is happy and the kids are the one who take the biggest hit (correct me if I am mistaken).
The only “happy” or “non complaining” women I have seen/met are non American.
The reason I mentioned the “counseling/workshops” – your “hamster translation services” are much needed on a broader scale (ie pre marriage).
Btw, when I went to counseling for during my divorce – the counsels said my expectations for marriage were pretty close to what you stated :
1. Be pretty (as you can).
2. Don’t get fat (take care of yourself and dont have kids)
3. Be nice (cook and clean since you are not working see 1&2)
4. Be available ( since you are not working and dont have kids – see 1&2)
Needless to say my ex went through the roof when she was told by 2 women counselors that it was a “good deal” and a lot of women would love this arrangement.
I think Chris Rock summed up it up very well in his series “Not Scared” – any attempt to make a woman happy is only screwing yourself.
Casey and mikesinger,
I’m not going to waste time defending myself because I know you won’t believe me anyways (seeing as you believe women’s actions over their speech). I’ll just continue to read and ask questions.
Thank you all for your time.
I probably should have added to my list of things I would look for in a wife:
18. Has nonexistent or very little noncollateral debt (i.e. consumer debt, credit card debt, school loans).
19. Willing to sign a detailed prenuptial agreement stating the following in the event of the marriage’s failure:
a. She waives alimony with prejudice forever.
b. She waives all claim to my retirement plans, 401(k) and pension plans with prejudice forever.
c. She is willing to go through a covenant marriage and forego civil, legal marriage.
d. I am under no circumstances responsible to pay her premarital debt even if I paid some of it during the course of the marriage.
e. If the marriage ends because of her adultery, she accepts a lump sum settlement of $10,000. She takes with her her personal effects and the cash settlement. Title to all remaining marital assets, including all real property, vehicles and liquid assets, goes to me.
@ Hopeful
I am not asking you to defend yourself, and if you re-read my posts to you…….I haven’t attacked you. So there is no necessity to defend yourself against me.
If I come across as curt, it is because time is of the essence. Now pretty please, with sugar on top……move along to the action list that will help you land a decent man.
OR
View the attached for a reference for how MEN feel about this topic (i.e. the obvious course of action to get tangible results).
I belive Deti nailed it on the head to unknown 🙂 Guys are far more simple then some females make them out to be.
@ Deti
1. Lifetime N= 5 or less.
-You will have to raise this number the older she is. 10 is the limit for me. And that’s pushing it way, way to much.
2. No STDs. No abortions.
-Check
3. No tattoos. Piercings: ears only.
-Check. Tattoos on women are trashy tasteless gross and fugly. I hate tattoos. They detract from a women’s essence. Despite what women with tattoos think I suspect tattoos are a common turn off to MOST men. Strippers and Porn Producers go out of their way to not hire tattooed women and even cover up tattoos using their hands and angles. I was curious and looked up “ads” for strippers and porn stars and you would not believe how many say NO TATTOOS on the ads. Why would they do that if most men did not care about tattoos? Piercings are basically feminine in culture so I don’t care if other parts are pierced but certain parts do seem to scream slut.
4. No prior marriages. No children, whether bastards or by prior marriage. (Exceptions made for widows; however, a widow will have to qualify extremely highly in other areas if I am to take the place of a deceased husband/father).
-Check
5. Demeanor is feminine, demure, modest, kind, pleasant, and submissive.
-Check
6. Long hair. Good makeup. Reasonable weight. Feminine, modest clothing.
-Check. Short hair can also be hot – but only on a certain type of women.
7. Burns with passion for me. Literally begs me to have sex with her.
-Begs? Dude. I think your pushing it way to hard here LOL
8. Wants to have children, and stay at home with the children until the youngest is in school. Then wants to return to part time work to help with expenses.
-Check
9. Is willing to subordinate her needs to those of the family and to me.
-Check. But not to extremes.
10. Is not pining away for a past alpha or failed relationship.
-Check.
11. Openly disdains sluts.
-Check
12. Openly disdains “the herd” and refuses to follow it.
-CHECK.
13. I am the most important human being in her life. I rank above her parents, her family of origin, even above our children.
-I disagree with this. I think you are being too selfish and self centered. This is an unreasonable request.
14. No history of any kind of mental illness or addiction.
-Check
15. No history of treatment for mental illness.
-Check
16. Is not currently taking or using hormonal birth control.
-Why? What’s the big deal?
17. Not on any maintenance medications for chronic health conditions.
-Check
A huge issue for me is that she does not have any serious genetic issues that can be passed onto my children. I am somewhat of an extremist in this. I agree with key positions from both the far left and the far right on this point. I don’t feel people with genetic issues should be able to birth children. I understand they are in love. But it’s not right to pass on genetic disorders to innocent children. In this case it’s best to adopt.
The facts are we, as human beings, cannot get around the laws of nature. The further humanity continues to stray from the laws of nature the more severe the punishment will be in the future.
After the movie Gattaca came out I realized if humanity maintains it’s current reproductive course more and more people will have genetic health issue as they are spread through the pool. Peoples genetic reproductive rights will be called into question. This will occur only when it’s too late.
People will look back and say how foolish 21st century people were allowing this to happen. I know I’m pissing off allot of people off by saying this. I DON’T don’t mean to sound like Hitler because that’s the knee jerk reaction I always hear when I dare to bring this topic up. People become furious. It’s not my intention to inflame emotions or hurt anyone’s feelings. Only to adhere to logic and scientific facts.
So when a girl tells me she has some kind of pertinent genetic issue (outside normal things of course) that has to be controlled with injections pills doctor visits etc. Dating leads to marriage/sex/kids and I have a duty to make sure my offspring starts off with the best hand of cards as is possible from me personally.
The problem with eugenics, is you are asking people who aren’t the product of perfect eugenics to set the standards for perfect eugenics… it makes eugenics imperfect. And imperfect eugenics is pointless, isn’t it?
It’s ethically problematic as well… but throw that out. Pragmatically eugenics doesn’t work either, no more than an all-powerful government or an all-powerful dictator.
@Hopeful – since “simply asking for a barometer to see where the ideal is” – here is a old saying for your consideration.
If you have to ask how much it cost, then you can’t afford it.
I relayed this as nicely as a I could to the last two “hopeful” women who decided that they wanted to settle down with a sincere “Christian” man with morals after taking too many trips around the block with the “bad boys” (They found out I was quite sincere since I didn’t take them up on their “offer”).
It is quite interesting to see the reaction of one of them who I told this to (she was very attractive ex- trophy wife who was very, very, wealthy from her divorce (she was married to one of the San Diego Padres owners). She really wanted to know what I meant by “what do you mean I cant afford it ?” when she asked what I found attractive in a woman .
She had no idea what “moral currency” was and that she was “bankrupt”.
Best of luck with your search.
~Shalom
@Michael “16. Is not currently taking or using hormonal birth control.
-Why? What’s the big deal?
She is either sexually active or subject to unbearable/uncontrollable mood swings. Simply spiteful AND overbearing for 3 weeks of the month – this cannot be denied.
Real PMS is a unbearable to live with – plan on it getting worse over time and divorce is quite inevitable.
Read up on this – there are plenty of medical & social studies regarding PMS.
@mikesinger
I’m finding it difficult how you can speculate on my morality from what I’ve written here. Like I said yesterday, I’m reading and asking questions here to learn so I’m going to keep doing that.
mikesinger: ANY woman that requires “hormonal birth control” to control “heavy menstrual cycles and other PMS symptoms”….
Do you really believe that’s why so many single Christian women are on the pill — to “stabilize their cycles….blah blah, blah….” Perhaps this is true in a few cases but I’d bet that most of them are on it for another reason. Either they’ve no intention of waiting til marriage, or, perhaps they are trying to protect themselves against the consequences in case they “lose control” of themselves and it “just happens.”
Because if it were really about the cycle, not secretly having illicit sex while pretending not to, there’s a lot that can be done nutritionally for PMS.
van Rooinek
I agree with you. The majority of women are not on birth control for period regulation. Most women that say that are lying.
From what I’ve gathered from the men who post here, you are looking for the outliers. The women you consider marriageable are a very small percentage of the population. The women (or woman may be) who use birth control for period regulation are a very small percentage.
And I’ve personally asked my doctor about PMS symptom management and have been told that there is nothing nutritionally that can be done. Ob gyn’s push birth control pills which I refused for years. There’s not much a medical doctor can do for PMS; you just take some aspirin, use a heating pad and just deal with it.
@ Hopeful:
“From what I’ve gathered from the men who post here, you are looking for the outliers. The women you consider marriageable are a very small percentage of the population.”
Sadly, yes. In times past, an average man could count on a lot of help to keep his wife in line. He could count on his family, his wife’s family (especially his father and her parents), the law, society, and culture to tamp down her hypergamy. If she got out of line, a man no less than her father told her in no uncertain terms to go back to her husband. She couldn’t divorce unless she could prove real (not imagined), egregious misconduct bordering on criminal. All of society stood aligned with preserving the marriage. If she really wanted a divorce, she left with nothing; the children stayed with their father; and she was consigned to a life of dependence and spinsterhood. The social and cultural penalties were double if she committed adultery.
Now, there is nothing which tethers a woman to her marriage except her own character. All of society aligns with the wife. The families do nothing to preserve the marriage and in some cases agitate for its destruction. The law protects her and punishes him. Society eggs her on – to delay marriage and motherhood; to undermine her marriage once married; to assert her continual “independence”; to claim “unhaaaaappiness”; to cheat and seek sex outside the marriage; and to divorce on the flimsiest of pretenses. Not even the well-being of her own children will keep her married to her children’s father. The stakes are incredibly high. The husband’s financial and emotional future hangs in the balance. If she wants a divorce, all she has to do is file, and for the sole qualification of being Mrs. Beta, she gets half of the marital assets and virtually guaranteed child custody which secures her an income stream – even if the divorce is 100% her fault and there is video evidence of the local college football team running train on her. In other words, she can commit the most heinous acts of adultery against her marriage and STILL win. She won’t be denied child custody unless someone proves she’s a multiple felon and currently addicted to at least three different legal or illegal substances.
So, with the woman’s character as the sole adherent binding her to a marriage and to a promise that everyone around her encourages her to break, don’t you think it’s a good idea for men to assess that woman’s character, past and present? We know past performance isn’t a guarantee of future results, but assessing how someone behaved in the past gives one a pretty good idea of how one might act in the future.
If she drank and cheated on a BF; odds are she could drink and cheat on her husband.
If she had an abortion; she’s not very good at making decisions and doesn’t value the lives of others. If she doesn’t value the life of a helpless baby growing inside her, what makes a man think she’ll give two shits about his life? And why in God’s name would a man trust his child(ren) with her?
If she squanders her own money, why should she be trusted with the fruit of a man’s labor?
If she has indiscriminate slut sex, she lives only in the moment, doesn’t value herself, and doesn’t understand long range ramifications of current decisions. It also indicates that personal relationships aren’t all that important to her and that she has a lot of trouble forging long-term bonds and commitments. If she acts this way toward herself, why would a man think she’s in it for the long haul and will care about him 1 year, 5 years, 20 years hence?
That’s why a man should look for an outlier. That’s why he can’t settle for the woman of poor character who could be reined in by society and controlled; or penalized and ostracized by society if she couldn’t.
@ Hopeful
I think you brought the animal out in Deti. He’s spot on in what he has said to you (this post & others). There was a time when women were held to a much higher standard.
Now any skank is supposed to be revered for her shitty decisions; and the consequences thereof foisted on any man in the vicinity.
Yes, we are looking for outliers…..but only because quality is now the exception rather than the norm.
@ Van Rooniek – I’ll try this again. Here is a repeat in reference to single women on the pill.
“She is either sexually active or subject to unbearable/uncontrollable mood swings.”
@Hopeful – “I’m finding it difficult how you can speculate on my morality ”
I have found people are “exception to the rule” or “general rule of thumb”.
The “exception to the rule” are disciplined and very few and are far between- this cannot be denied.
Again, since you have asked “what is the the price of admission” – then you dont know the cost.
Since you dont know the cost then you are not a “exception to the rule” and are a “general rule of thumb”.
Here is a very simple analogy – It is quite easy to visually distinguish a disciplined person to non disciplined person (ie A Navy Seal or a Officer to Enlisted personnel).
A feminine/chaste woman can be spotted very quickly and her chastity initially gauged by a very brief interaction. It is a different attraction mechanism and is literally a “kick in the gut” reaction vs a sexual urge. I have only observed this in women from the Middle / Far East, European women, and never in American women.
Being Jewish, I have number of Middle eastern women and there are rules of modesty/conduct that American women would find absurd and backwards. However, these are centuries old courting rules that are intentional and quite elegant. It is keeping the glandular under control which is 180 degrees different than the current protocols.
Given your replies it is quite obvious you havent interacted with men who have morals and lead a chaste life.
~Shalom
Hopeful: The women you consider marriageable are a very small percentage of the population.
The women that are OBJECTIVELY marriageable, are a very small percentage of the population. NO man should marry these messed up women. The good news is that even the really messed up ones, can repent and straighten out, and many (but not all) of the consequences of bad choices, can be mitigated by… wait for it… not repeating them endlessly.
Fortunately I eventually found one good woman. But it wasn’t easy.
@mikesinger
I invite you to read some of my other posts on this site as they will fill in some details so you don’t have to make assumptions.
I’ve been trying to steer some friends to this site so that they can get a reality check. Thanks to deti and others who have posted great advice, I can start that conversation and have at least some answers to the questions I know they will ask and objections they will raise. My questioning has not just been for me. I know the men on here at times feel like they are hitting their heads against the wall trying to make women understand their plight, but I have learned and continue to learn a lot from this site and plan on passing the knowledge on.
Casey and Hopeful – Yes, all the nice guys I know are taken, and the ones that aren’t taken have never shown the slightest of interest in me.
Deti – Long response there. I’ll answer when I get a moment. But let me summarize…I’m 30. Never married. No kids. Average salary (takes care of me, at least. I live a sort of simple life). No dramas. No medication etc. Been in love once. Second one…I am not sure it was love. I think I was just needy. He didn’t love me anyway.
And not overweight, thankfully 🙂 It also doesn’t help me much that I don’t drink much. Most of my friends who drink are a lot more popular/noticed by men. Am the boring kind of girl that will drink a glass wine and then maybe juice and that’s the end of my ‘drinking spree’.
In short, I am just what my name tells you – unknown.
@ Hopeful
Welcome to the Manosphere……I knew there was a red pill woman in you.
@mikesinger
“A feminine/chaste woman can be spotted very quickly and her chastity initially gauged by a very brief interaction.”
Interesting comment. I’ve heard of men being able to distinguish between chaste and non-chaste women, and I agree that for the most part it’s probably easy to spot based on demeanor and the vibes they give off. However, what about if a woman is non-chaste but dresses and acts conservatively? I’m thinking that most men would somehow still be able to tell, I’m just curious how? I’m not asking for myself, I really am just intrigued and curious.
“It is a different attraction mechanism and is literally a “kick in the gut” reaction vs a sexual urge. ”
Another really interesting comment. What would you say is the difference for men between the “kick in the gut reaction vs a sexual urge.”
Lastly, you made a comment, which I’m not able to now find (apologies) about how a woman coming from a divorced family contributes to a lack of morals on her part. Do you and another men consider a woman with divorced parents to be a deal breaker? If so, I suppose I can understand the apple doesn’t fall from the tree logic, however, I know of people who came from divorced or “broken” homes, and still managed to have good marriages not only in spite of, but sometimes even because of their upbringing, in the sense that they learned early on not to make the same mistakes their parents did.
I know of people who came from divorced or “broken” homes, and still managed to have good marriages not only in spite of, but sometimes even because of their upbringing, in the sense that they learned early on not to make the same mistakes their parents did.
I know a 4 pack a day smoker who lived into his 90’s in good health.
@Perspective – before I “proceed”. Mind if I ask how many partners you have been with ?
“I’ve heard of men being able to distinguish between chaste and non-chaste women, and I agree that for the most part it’s probably easy to spot based on demeanor and the vibes they give off. However, what about if a woman is non-chaste but dresses and acts conservatively? I’m thinking that most men would somehow still be able to tell, I’m just curious how?”
Pretty much the same as slut tells. None of these are surefire tells for a nonchaste woman who dresses conservatively. But the odds go up that she’s a slut if any of these are present:
1. She smokes. (Even if you’ve never seen her with a cigarette in her hand, you know if she smokes. Smokers cannot get rid of the smell. Look at the stained teeth, the wrinkled lips, nicotine stains on the fingertips. Listen for the hacking smoker’s cough and the husky smoker’s voice. Gives them away every time.)
2. She uses profanity frequently in regular conversation.
3. She is 30 or over, never married, and works in law (private practice) or medicine. (she could be a lawyer, physician, secretary, paralegal, nurse, technician or physician assistant. The point is she works around a lot of high status, powerful, wealthy men who are used to getting their own way.)
4. She looks prematurely aged. She is getting crows feet; yellowing teeth; wrinkling at the eyes, the lips and décolletage; and gray hair, in her late 20s or early 30s.
5. She talks about evenings at the bars and her “fun” nights out.
6. When describing herself, she uses the adjectives “fun” and “likes to have a good time” and “enjoys travel”.
7. Jaded and cynical outlook on life. Talks about the double standard for sexual conduct for men and women and complains about its “unfairness”. Says things like “It’s a man’s world” and “men have it easier than women.”
8. Liberal political leanings. Votes heavily Democrat. Either doesn’t go to church at all; or attends a church/synagogue but is openly critical and cynical about faith and religion.
@deti
Thanks for the detailed reply, appreciated as always.
Perspective:
The “Kick in the gut” vs. the sexual urge mikesinger is talking about:
I don’t want to speak for him but I know what he’s talking about.
With nonchaste women, we notice things like the display of skin, the cleavage, the hypersexual conduct. We see her doling out attention to the attractive men and her taunting and mocking the unattractive men. It’s a “I want to bang her” urge. We don’t much like these women; we just want to have sex with them.
With chaste, kind, pleasant women, we notice the attitude, the feminine nature, the pleasant demeanor, the kindness. It’s not initially sexual. It’s more overwhelming and intoxicating, in large part because it’s so rare. It’s an “I need to possess her, protect her, care for her and keep her close” urge. We want to have sex with them, but we like these women very much and want to keep them with us.
@empath
“I know a 4 pack a day smoker who lived into his 90′s in good health.”
I think I know what you’re trying to get at with your response, but I don’t really think the two scenarios are equally comparable. The smoker chose to do that to himself, whereas the children of divorced parent’s were born into it and had no say in the matter.
@Perspective:
“a woman coming from a divorced family contributes to a lack of morals on her part. Do you and another men consider a woman with divorced parents to be a deal breaker? If so, I suppose I can understand the apple doesn’t fall from the tree logic, however, I know of people who came from divorced or “broken” homes, and still managed to have good marriages not only in spite of, but sometimes even because of their upbringing, in the sense that they learned early on not to make the same mistakes their parents did.”
With all due respect, Perspective, this is ridiculous. It’s comments like these that make the hardened regulars around here question your good faith and make us think you’re trolling.
OF COURSE there are exceptions to the rule. There are ALWAYS exceptions to EVERY general principle. You’re citing to the exceptions that prove the rule. Come on, Perspective. Please. Puh-leeeeeze.
Like Empath said, there are 90 year old 4- pack-a-day smokers.
My great granddad lived to 89 after smoking like a chimney and drinking a half a bottle of Jack Daniel’s every day. (I’m not exaggerating.)
My uncle was divorced twice and he still found a decent woman to marry him, third time a charm (hope his kids are that lucky. So far they haven’t been.)
The point is that MOST smokers are cutting their lives short. MOST alcoholics are going to die early. MOST divorced people just suck at making relationships work and aren’t good at selecting suitable mates. I cannot believe that you don’t understand this.
Look – a woman with divorced parents to me wasn’t a deal breaker, but it sure as hell was a red flag. First, a woman from a broken home has probably grown up without her father in the home and hasn’t lived with him. She views relationships as more disposable because, well, her own parents ended their marriage. So if things get tough with me, she’ll just end it because, well, that’s what married couples do when things get tough. She’s never seen anyone keep a marriage together through tough times. She learned that when the going gets tough, you get divorced.
Second, if she grew up with a stepdad, he could have abused her sexually or emotionally. Sorry. Don’t want to deal with that baggage. A lot of these girls want to marry to get away from that. A man should be wary of having to clean up that mess. Her future husband can also count on a less satisfying sex life if she’s been emotionally or sexually abused.
Third, a woman from a broken home has probably never watched a healthy, well adjusted man live his life. She doesn’t know the rhythms and customs of his life. She doesn’t understand how a healthy, good, kind man lives, reacts, responds, works, plays, eats and otherwise manages his life and his home. She doesn’t understand it because she’s never seen it or lived with it, day in and day out.
Fourth, a woman from a broken home doesn’t know how to submit in a healthy way. She either cannot submit because she had to take charge of herself and maybe even her mom and siblings; or she thinks submission means “timid, cowering doormat who never speaks up or voices her opinion or does anything”.
Just about every woman I’ve ever known from a divorced family had some pathology, some deep insecurity; some huge problem that I could see I was going to have to either work through, help her work through, or just live with. The fact that most women have a sexual history by the time they get to their husbands is bad enough. Why compound being a child of divorce on top of the shit he’s already going to have to deal with?
@deti
Thanks again. What you wrote about the “kick in the gut vs the sexual urge,” is what I sensed what most men mean by it, I was just looking for someone to articulate it, which you’ve done a great job of.
“I think I know what you’re trying to get at with your response, but I don’t really think the two scenarios are equally comparable. The smoker chose to do that to himself, whereas the children of divorced parent’s were born into it and had no say in the matter.”
This is just hitting grand slams with underhand soft pitches.
Perspective, OF COURSE the child of divorced parents had no say in the matter. Of course the child of a broken home didn’t do this to herself. That’s not the point.
The point is that the damage is already done by the time the daughter of divorced parents grows up and starts dating. Many times the damage is concealed and doesn’t reveal itself until it’s too late, and sadly even she herself doesn’t know about the damage or its extent.
And most importantly, the people who will bear the brunt of that damage are the man who marries her, and her children. It will take months and years to sort through the flotsam and the jetsam to fix it – and that’s presuming the damage even can be fixed.
Yes, it’s unfair. Yes, it’s tragic. Yes, it means a lot of daughters of divorce will be crappy marriage partners. Yes, it means a lot of daughters of divorce shouldn’t be getting married. Tough. I’m more concerned that they don’t fuck up a man’s life in the process or make babies who themselves with have their lives ruined.
“With all due respect, Perspective, this is ridiculous. It’s comments like these that make the hardened regulars around here question your good faith and make us think you’re trolling.OF COURSE there are exceptions to the rule. There are ALWAYS exceptions to EVERY general principle. You’re citing to the exceptions that prove the rule. Come on, Perspective. Please. Puh-leeeeeze.”
Deti, thank you again for detailed answer. It’s fine if you disagree with what I’m saying, but why would that make you and the hardened regulars question my good faith and assume I’m trolling? All I did was express my opinion on why children of divorce shouldn’t be judged and share some real life examples of children of divorce who I know and whom have been able to make their marriages work in spite of, and yes sometimes even (and I did say “sometimes” so I know it’s an exception, but still thought worth mentioning) because of it. I may not always have the right words, and I may come across as clumsy at times in my attempt to find them, but it’s never my intention to annoy or aggravate anyone. Do you really think I would have been posting here were almost a year now if I were simply trolling and not genuinely interested?
Here’s another problem with daughters of divorce:
The daughter of divorce almost always has deep, deep trust issues, especially towards men. She has never learned how to trust a man. In fact, she learned how to distrust men.
She has never put her trust in a man to take care of her, to be there when she needs him, to love her when she’s unlovable, to supervise her, and to put boundaries down for her. She either was told not to trust; she put misplaced trust in a dad or stepdad; or her properly placed trust was destroyed.
The question then becomes: “Do I want to be the man/boyfriend/fiancé/husband to sort through that mess? What will my marriage look like? I will have to start from scratch teaching her my expectations, expecting her trust and submission; when she has NEVER done these things and I can expect fighting and resistance and pushback and failure every step of the way. It will be a long, hard slog. I’ll have to do without sex sometimes. I’ll have to put up with “duty sex”. I’ll have to pay for her counseling/therapy. I’ll have to push through her walls and defense mechanisms and her “issues” and her general fucked-upness. Do I want that for my life?”
@ Deti & Perspective
Many thanks Deti – way better than I could have communicated it.
Here is just a smidge more. As mentioned, I have seen / felt it from non American women who have a very natural “grace” demeanor to them. The attention to detail is seen in their clothing selection, grooming, personal habits, and manners (They are “unspoiled” by western profligation and it is quite obvious).
In addition, they are quite comfortable with them self and not competing with other women. This is probably the most striking ie the lack of insecurity around “base” women (I have sense a disdain and pity instead).
Once I actually figured out what the heck it was, I have sensed in group settings (ie vibe) first and seeing it second.
As Deti mentioned – It is very intoxicating & overwhelming.
This is mere IMO observation but women with high #’s lose a bit of “soul” every time they connect and as result become a bit desensitized.
In regards to divorced families and lack of morals/discipline passed to children. This is seen commonly seen with distant / absent fathers. There are plenty of social studies to back this up.
@ Perspective:
“It’s fine if you disagree with what I’m saying, but why would that make you and the hardened regulars question my good faith and assume I’m trolling? All I did was express my opinion on why children of divorce shouldn’t be judged and share some real life examples of children of divorce who I know and whom have been able to make their marriages work in spite of, and yes sometimes even (and I did say “sometimes” so I know it’s an exception, but still thought worth mentioning) because of it.”
OK, Perspective, you’re not a troll. But since you’ve been here a year, you know how devastating divorce is. You also know we deal in generalities. Generalities are useful to express generally known and accepted principles. You also know that the buzzwords “judgment” and “judged” don’t carry a whole lot of weight.
I’m sorry if you believe that children of divorce are being “judged” by my assessments and observations. But the simple fact of the matter is that a woman from a broken home in today’s day and age presents too high a marriage risk, for the reasons that I’ve expressed. I suppose if a man wants to marry a daughter of divorce; if he wants to roll the dice and take his chances, that’s fine. I wouldn’t recommend it, but if he wants to do that, I guess that’s his right. He ought to have all the facts, figures and reasons before him so he can make an informed choice. But if he rejects a woman because her parents are divorced and she’s exhibiting the issues I’ve expressed, even one of them, I can’t fault him for doing so.
I think a man ought to be judging. He should be vetting and reviewing and scrutinizing his potential GFs, sex partners and wives HARD for any issues, problems and lack of suitability. And one of those things he should be finding out is whether she’s the product of an intact marriage.
Is this tragic for women? Yes. Does it mean a lot of people are getting married who probably shouldn’t be getting married? I think so. Does it mean a lot of those people will be divorce statistics? Probably. But it’s more tragic for men who aren’t getting what they bargained for. It’s more tragic for the hapless husbands who bargained for a wife, and instead got a babbling, immature, screwed up head case. It’s more tragic for the children they will spawn who themselves will be caught up in a vicious cycle. It’s got to stop somewhere, and that means there will be – or at least should be – a whole lot of people in their teens, 20s and 30s right now who aren’t going to marry, and who shouldn’t marry.
Deti,
Your 1:47 comment is fantastic. I wonder if I may use it for a future post? (Can’t say when, I’ve noticed a nasty habit of mine is planning on writing a post and then not getting to it until much later. Could be tonight, could be next week) You’ve said before that you don’t mind, but it doesn’t seem right to not be involved in a conversation at all, see a comment, and then use it without making it known first.
Nope, sorry, the 1:58 comment.
The conversation here is excellent, so I was wondering: Why is it that females engage in behaviour likely to wreck their chances of marriage?
Is it:
1. They had never considered these points?
2. They considered them but just don’t care?
3. They observed that there are enough guys only too keen to wife them up no matter that they are in their late thirties and have all sorts of red-flag issues?
I would not however wish to give the impression that all men are marriage-able. I certainly never seriously considered what I would need to do to be attractive enough to marry and stay married or which women would make good wives, and I am afraid to say the exciting ones are usually dreadful and despite their protestations tend to have (with the Vagina Goggles ™ removed) enough red-flags to sink a Battleship. I can only wish that my parents or teachers had addressed these points to us as callow youths. The important thing always to remember is that the Man is the catch and thus he should not sell himself short: Women need to respond to that fact. Being single has its considerable charms. 😉
One must judge each case on its merits, but I would say, that being the daughter of divorced parents is, if not a red, then at least an orange flag. Bastardy, and adoption likewise. That is not of course to say that all women from intact families are desirable and I have known some where I would rather have eaten neat barbed-wire rather than hang around her parents (domineering mothers and weak fathers – or the reverse). All women tend to turn into their mothers (as Wilde dismally observed) so getting to observe Mother is important and yet there are exceptions.
The advantage of young marriage was that the girls had Locke-ian Blank Slates. Twenty years in Corporate Cubicles and on The Alpha Carousel, quickly reduces all women to a state of unmarriagability. Is repair really possible?
Opus, if I may, I’d like to give your question a crack. A lot of it has to do with women projecting what they want in a husband onto themselves. If a woman wants this in a husband, then it stands to her reason that he would want the same thing from here (because we are the same dontcha know. And yes, I was like this too and was sadly mistaken).
So we think men want strong, independent, powerful women. In a sense this is true. However, strength in a woman is not nearly the same as strength in a man. Neither is independence (which translates better to self reliant) and neither is powerful. Well, I don’t think powerful really translates at all. The closest thing would be her power in beauty.
So, in a sense, it is your #1. We’ve never considered them from the point of view of a man. What we’ve been taught has been how a man attracts a woman. Unfortunately, men do not care much about these things. What makes it worse is that we skew these things into a woman’s perspective and they mutate into some weird form of what they originally started as.
I think I know what you’re trying to get at with your response, but I don’t really think the two scenarios are equally comparable. The smoker chose to do that to himself, whereas the children of divorced parent’s were born into it and had no say in the matter.
The most frequent mistake people make when seeing an analogy is to focus on the inoperative portion of it. The part of the analogy that is important has nothing to do with the scenarios and everything to do with math. Yes. Math. That you know of an exception means NOTHING with regard to the generality being mentioned or used. In this case, generally these kids are damaged (more than half the time, strictly speaking) and generally smoking is bad for you (more then half the time, strictly speaking)
Forget the specifics and focus on the mechanics. Its not uniquely female, but it is predominantly female form to use exceptions as data. Fail. That was my point. The other derivation of that is to say “it depends on the individuals”…..no, the generality being valid or not does not depend on the individuals because its not about the individuals. Being able to communicate with generalities is not only correct, it is essential. Otherwise each time we addressed any topic we’d have to send lengthy surveys and do interviews of everyone involved or mentioned so we could consider said as individuals.
Sting:
Anything I write anywhere is fair game for anyone to use in any way they see fit: To use as a springboard for a post, as social critique, to criticize me, to agree with me or disagree with me, whatever.
@ Stingray
This. Modern women, are fed lies about what men want or look for in women, assuming that the woman in question is told anything at all. The end result is frightening, something that is neither man nor woman.
As for the chaste v. unchaste “vibe.” It is most discernible from a truly feminine woman. Perhaps the reason why is because if a woman is feminine in the West these days, it means she was raised to reject the current culture, and thus is more likely to live in a chaste manner. But what Deti describes is true: With a “sexy” woman a man is filled with lust, and wants to take her then and there. But the “sexy” woman is ultimately disposable in the man’s eyes; he will toss her aside when he is done with her. But a truly feminine woman, one who is… chaste doesn’t seem quite right, actually. “Pure” or “Innocent” might be better. That kind of woman is a treasure, especially if she is good looking. Encountering such a woman stirs something deep inside us, a possessiveness which drives us to claim the woman as our own, to protect her and take care of her as though she were our most prized possession. Something in us tells us that a woman like that is worth investing in, and that our time and resources are well spent upon her.
Anything I write anywhere is fair game for anyone to use in any way they see fit:
Logistically, speaking, of course. I know that this is true of any comment anywhere. I just don’t like taking without you at least knowing. Next time, I won’t ask, I’ll just let you know.
Donal,
Oooooh, more for my post. Thank you! 😉 (This is my way of telling you that your comment could end up in the post as well. 😉 )
Opus
I think Stingray’s response hits the nail on the head. As a woman, I can say many of the women I have known have just assumed a man would be there, just as Dalrock has said before. Magical thinking. As deti and others noted before all a girl has to do is be pretty and nice and men will flock to them. But as you guys have pointed out, pretty and nice have to come with other characteristics like submission and domestic skills to be considered long term. And women have different idea of what constitutes pretty and nice as Stingray has already said.
“the important thing always to remember is that the Man is the catch and thus he should not sell himself short”
You know, a lot of relationship advice given to women says this exact thing (you know, changing out “man” for “woman”). I know you guys have all read and heard the women who insist that they deserve better, and that they are the catch and that any man worth their time has to prove himself worthy.
“Modern women, are fed lies about what men want or look for in women, assuming that the woman in question is told anything at all. The end result is frightening, something that is neither man nor woman.”
This. THIS. In my experience over the last 30 years, most women are not being told to be nice, feminine, pleasant, demure, submissive (to men they are dating or are attracted to), or pretty. They’re not being told to watch their weight.
This is a hobby horse of mine for obvious reasons, but women aren’t being told that their Ns matter.
I can’t even tell you how many indignant responses I get when I confront women with the fact that, well, yes, how many men they’ve had sex with affects their value as a woman and as a potential wife.
“You’re calling me a SLUT!”
“That shouldn’t matter AT ALL. If it’s ok for men to sleep around and then settle down with a wife; why can’t a woman sleep around and then settle down with a husband?”
“There’s no way her sexual past should disqualify her as a wife.”
“that’s not FAIR!”
“That’s SEXIST!”
And time and again, the only reason women give is that, well, if it’s OK for men, then it should be OK for women. Because anything else is “unfair”. Beyond that, they cannot give any reason why a woman’s N is irrelevant.
Look, ladies. For men, our Ns don’t affect us. We don’t spend time pining away for past loves. When they break up with us, it hurts us, sometimes for a long, long time. But when we get over it, we’re over and done with it, we move on, and whatever bond was there is severed.
It’s not the same for you ladies. Your Ns DO affect you. Because the higher your N, the greater the chance there was a really hot alpha in there somewhere and you’re still pining away for him (them). Your bonds to those men aren’t so easily severed. And the higher your N, the less “sticky” your bonding ability becomes; until at some point you become unable to bond.
Sure, there are men who report being unable to bond, but they are men with Ns of 50, 60, 100 and up. The number of men with Ns at that level is infinitesimally, vanishingly, small, so small as to be statistically insignificant. They are the exception to the rule. By contrast, the average women has an N of somewhere between 6 and 11 by the time she gets to a marriage altar. The average man’s N is between 3 and 6. And we men are right to be concerned about that.
Even Susan Walsh has said that women she talks to are dumbfounded to hear that their Ns of 15, 20, 30 puts them into slut territory. They just cannot believe that men even care about their Ns. They are flabbergasted to hear from some relationship advisor that, well, uh, yeah, quality men will have sex with you, but with that N, they will never, EVER marry you.
Deti,
It’s the should that gets them every time.
Regarding N count, I think that women thinking it doesn’t matter is a millennial thing. My generation (X) knew that a high N was bad. What we didn’t know was that sex in a relationship was bad as well. We were taught that as long as we were in love and in a monogamous relationship, it was ok. We did know that one could not have too many monogamous relationships or it would be a huge discredit (it becomes an excuse pretty quickly). But as long as it was a LTR, sex is no big deal. Reading Dalrock’s take on that (he has a name for it and I am blanking on it right now) was a big shock to me when I first read it.
@Deti
I am sorry that women say these ridiculous things to you, for one only looks like a jealous loser when one points out that a woman’s promiscuity affects her reputation; more importantly they know it despite their Hamster squeals, for women always go to great lengths to hide their promiscuity or round-it-down in some way – they may say it is sexist but you just try suggesting that they are sluts and you will feel their claws. They would not do that if they really thought promiscuity did not matter. When word gets round that a woman is a slut, men cease producing flowers and wining and dining; and make blunt propositions. Rejection is merely laughed at, for to be rejected by a slut does not affect a man’s SMV and reveals the woman to be a hypocrite; to sleep with a slut however may well lower a man’s SMV both in the eyes of other men and of other women – no one was ever thought well of for going with a prostitute. Given average looks, average age and average weight, a woman’s marriage-ability drops off a cliff with a high N count (at least in relation to other women) – even should she not wish to marry it affects how she is perceived. I’d say that beyond Youth, Beauty and being slim (or the lacks thereof) the main deal killers for men would be Promiscuity, STDs, Abortions, Tats (cured or incurable) and one or more Marriages/LTRs (cohabiting or otherwise). Expecting men to ignore female promiscuity is equivalent to a man expecting a woman to ignore male impecuniousness – Cinderella remember was both chaste and impecunious! the Prince had money and for all we know had a high N count – that was immaterial however which, is why the tale is silent on the matter.
The male fantasy is of the woman who will sleep with everyone whenever asked but such a woman is never top of anyone list of potential brides, and see the response you get should you suggest that a woman of your acquaintance should immediately give it up for all the guys in the group! A man so propositioned by a group of women (subject to recovery time) will be only too happy – well I would and my SMV would rise accordingly – given average looks age and body-weight for the lucky women. Would you really want to be known as the guy whose wife had slept with every guy in the street. Such a woman would be better advised to pursue a career providing sexual services for a fee, as Dr Johnson once observed to Boswell.
@Perspective – I believe you can sometimes tell a virgin woman just by looking at her face. She has a youthful radiant beauty that goes missing in others who have lost their innocence.
Sting,
But as long as it was a LTR, sex is no big deal.
Might you have been thinking of this one of Dalrocks:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/womens-sacred-path-to-marriage/
Or perhaps this one:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/but-we-were-in-love/
Observer,
I can’t remember a specific post. If I remember correctly it was over 2-3 posts that it took me to wrap my head around it. The term I couldn’t think of in my earlier comment was Serial Monogamy. For women my age, a limited number of serial monogamous relationships were considered ok and even a good thing (as demonstrated in the posts you linked to).
Sting:
Your answer to Opus’ question is excellent. I think that is much of the issue: that women project onto themselves what they want in men; and so they think that men want strong, powerful, independent women.
Some of it is projection. And some of it is fathers teaching their daughters these things too. It isn’t that fathers are male feminists or that they want to sabotage their daughters’ lives. It is that these men genuinely want the best for their daughters. These men live in the same society as their wives, ex wives, and other women. These men grew up hearing about feminism, hearing about strong independent women. Most were raised by feminists. Some married feminists and were divorced by feminists. Nearly all of them work with and around women, most of whom are feminists. So these women’s fathers were saturated in the feminist culture as much as every one else.
And what’s more, these men, these fathers, see what’s going on around them. They see the divorce, the delayed marriage, the low quality of men around them; the general disinterest many young men have in education, hard work, marriage and fatherhood. They see more and more women going to college and getting careers. They know their daughters “can’t count on” marriage; many of those fathers are themselves divorced. They know their daughters need educations and jobs, if for no other reason than as a “fall back” safe position just in case she finds herself divorced. These men of course don’t want to see their daughters unhappy, or lonely, or destitute.
And it’s a contradiction to tell these girls “go! Go get educated and get jobs! Anything a man can do, you can do better! You need to learn and earn! You can’t count on a man or a marriage to take care of you!”
But then to say in virtually the same breath:
“Now, if you want to actually attract a good man for marriage, then all “learn and earn and go go go” stuff I just got done telling you is bullshit. You do all that on a date, you’re a ballbuster bitch. If you want to get a man, you cannot act, think, talk, or fuck like men. You have to be nice, pretty, available, and not fat. Be pleasant, kind, and submissive. Learn to cook and clean and grow your hair long. Wear nice makeup. Wear things he likes to see you wear. Learn to count on him, rely on him, and submit to him.”
And fathers don’t want to tell their daughters to be “submissive” because in today’s culture, “submissive” means “weak, timid, chained to a kitchen, fodder for violence and abuse.” It conjures up caricatured movie images of a pot bellied, unshaven, unkempt man in a “wife-beater” undershirt slapping around and bullying a cowering, weeping woman half his size.
And so, a large part of the “strong, independent, powerful” woman we see is a result of dads egging daughters on to achieve, to learn, to earn, and to stand on her own two feet.
And fathers don’t want to tell their daughters to be “submissive” because in today’s culture, “submissive” means “weak, timid, chained to a kitchen, fodder for violence and abuse.”
Technicality, but no, that’s not what it means. That’s what it hamsterlates to. They cannot change what things mean. They can distort, refuse, or be plain stupid, but meanings are meanings
Btw, Here is a excellent article regarding femininity from the Society of Phineas
http://societyofphineas.wordpress.com/2013/06/16/gentle-and-quiet-femininity-on-display/
@Deti – One other question I didn’t answer…no, I am not relationship/marriage-phobic or anything. In fact, I am probably the opposite. I tend to care too much (not in a freakish ‘I love u after 5mins’ kind of way, but more of a ‘looking forward to knowing you better’. I admit, I am a bit of an emotional person. When I love, I love 100%. My first love could attest to this if he were here (things didn’t work between us. I loved him more than he loved me). If I ever love again, I doubt that will change. I can’t pretend to not love/care for someone.
As regards looking…well,I sort of gave up when I turned 27/28. By giving up, I don’t mean starting to dress like a sack of potatoes. Being ignored (and 1 polite rejection) was killing my already very low confidence-in-dating self. This is my third year of acceptance; acceptance that I was not made to be loved, but to love. I have tried all I can. Sad, but no bitterness, just plain acceptance and getting ready to spend the rest of my life alone. Acceptance that people often lie to me that I am a lovely girl with a great personality (if I am so lovely, why am I unseen?). I am thankful for the good things like family (though far away), good health, a few friends (4, actually) and an ok job that takes care of me. I guess you could say I live a simple, peaceful, ok, sad life (if that makes any sense). If I am good as I am told, then I need to remind myself that good people always finish last.
“And it’s a contradiction to tell these girls “go! Go get educated and get jobs! Anything a man can do, you can do better! You need to learn and earn! You can’t count on a man or a marriage to take care of you!”
But then to say in virtually the same breath:
“Now, if you want to actually attract a good man for marriage, then all “learn and earn and go go go” stuff I just got done telling you is bullshit. You do all that on a date, you’re a ballbuster bitch. If you want to get a man, you cannot act, think, talk, or fuck like men. You have to be nice, pretty, available, and not fat. Be pleasant, kind, and submissive. Learn to cook and clean and grow your hair long. Wear nice makeup. Wear things he likes to see you wear. Learn to count on him, rely on him, and submit to him.””
I hear ya. Hence the rise of the “just in case.” Dab a little in the career, dab a little in the social life. And I think why you see the plethora of “strong” women on television. They chase down and arrest criminals in high heels and then later hook up and sleep with some guy. Previews say she’s smart, strong, sexy…She can engage with the guys on their level, she can shoot pool, drink you under the table, all while looking fabulous. Well for some women.
And considering women’s logic, would they perceive this contradiction? What do you think?
It may be something endemic to all women, but certainly modern Western Women have trouble distinguishing fact from fantasy. Seeing women like that on TV and in the movies rots their brains, and leaves them with the impression that they too, “can have it all.” And of course, when this blows up in their face (as it always does), it isn’t just them, but men and society in general, that suffers the consequences.
@deti
“They know their daughters “can’t count on” marriage; many of those fathers are themselves divorced. They know their daughters need educations and jobs, if for no other reason than as a “fall back” safe position just in case she finds herself divorced.”
I can confirm this personally with a real life example. My brother has only 2 daughters (no sons) and that is EXACTLY what he is teaching them. He does not count on a man to support his daughters, and does not want to support them during adulthood, and yet the daughters (attractive) can easily get husbands; and yet he is not teaching them on how to nab a good husband now that they are in their early twenties.
Unfortunately he has the ‘live and let live’ attitude towards his children which is a train wreck waiting to happen.
Just curious about the role of personal responsibility while we are talking about societal messages being taught.
Both men and women have commented on this blog about being sold a bill of goods. Women are sold the “you go girl” message and men are sold the “be a good person and provider and you will get a good wife” message.
For the women in particular, when should they take responsibility for their singleness predicament? Like the case of RJ outlines (of his nieces I presume?). At what point is it her fault she is husband-less? When she’s 42 and can’t do much about it anyway? I guess you could direct these questions towards men, but that’s not the point of this post.
Deti,
I completely agree about fathers. I remember very well my own father doing exactly what you said. He flat out told me, Stingray, you have to be careful. You need to get an education because the divorce rate is at 50%. If your husband ever leaves you, you have to have an education to fall back on. I don’t know if his implication was that my husband might leave me for younger and hotter, but that’s what I was afraid of (remember First Wives Club?).
I came out of this very lucky. I was told from the time I was 10-12 that I had to pay my own way through college so I started saving early and worked every summer. I came out of school debt free because of this. My mom also stayed home with us before we went to school and until high school was home from work by the time we got off the bus. She took good care of us and my Dad and I learned a lot from her. Enough that I knew I wanted to stay home as well, when we had kids and enough to know what a joy it is to serve the man in my life. I think all of this was enough to offset at least a bit of what I was being told that was untrue (Plus, I met my husband at college. Thank God).
I never had any cognitive dissonance about any of this, I guess, because I was debt free. Work and then stay home with the kids was the plan and what I did. I never much cared what other women thought of this plan of mine and for me, it worked (and in my field, I didn’t take any jobs from men either, thank goodness).
At what point is it her fault she is husband-less?
According to whom? According to culture, never. It’s the men’s jobs to man up and marry this catch of a woman.
According to the sphere? I’m inclined to say it was always her responsibility even though she was completely being led in the wrong direction. It is on all of us to discover the truth. Though there is obviously the huge problem that most never realizing that there is something else out there to even take into consideration. It used to be that schools taught kids to think. School taught kids to discover the truth for themselves and to not be afraid to learn about any and all possibilities. This is no longer the case. Now, we are taught, this is the way it is. There is no other perspective and if you dare to think for a moment there is, we will scream at you and try to shut you up, because your thoughts are dangerous. So, I don’t really know that answer to that question.
@ Stingray, Hopeful
I don’t know if there is a specific point where you can clearly ascribe blame to the woman. It has to be case specific. The real problem is that for many, if not most, women this point almost certainly comes after it would do any good for the woman. It is so very, very easy for a woman to screw up her life for good, at least when it comes to being marriageable.
Men can screw up as well, but the message to men: “be a good person and provider and you will get a good wife” is much easier to recover from. After all, the provider part is still important, and the rest can be fixed with a determination to change your attitude and behaviors.
@Stingray
Sleeping around, & not staying a virgin, makes womens lives tougher
Feminism is the icing on the cake for masculine, overly sexualised women, who refuse to remain virgins
At what point is it her fault she is husband-less?
Smv crossover point. The hitting the wall point. When her attractiveness in the dating market falls off a cliff.
At that point, she`s had years of affirmation and attention. She`s spurned multiple beta men because she believed the lack of tingles indicated a poor match. She`s reached the shallow end of the opportunity pool, and her options are diminishing, day by day.
She was told that she`s special, awesome and beautiful. She`s been told not to settle. That she deserves someone amazing.
If she hasn`t been able to make a selection by then, in her mind its still the mans fault.
SPINSTER REPORT:
Coming to you live from Los Angeles. At approximently 1:15pm PST I was hit on by a blonde aging Spinster in the elevator appx 35-40 years of age. Has that “I used to young and hot but I suntanned too much” look.
She gave me this “deliberate stare”. What was I thinking after she looked at me?
“Please don’t talk to me!”
“Please don’t talk to me!”
“Please don’t talk to me!”
“Please don’t talk to me!”
Sure enough she starts talking:
” Hey have you ever wondered why _____________________?”
Me: “Yes” (Shut up please I don’t want you to talk to me)
Her: “Lol Yes I’ve always noticed how bla bla bla don’t you think bla bla bla”
Me: “Yes” (Go away u old bag)
Her: “So that shirt looks really good on you it’s really PRESSED looking”
Me: “Thank you. I’ll tell my dry cleaner”.
Her: “Ha ha ha” “Did you just move in?”
Me: “No. I’ve been here 7 years”
Her: “Oh really well I moved in 2 months ago bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla”
Me: “Ok”
Her: :”bla bla bla bla bla bla”
Me: “Ok”
Her: “Lol lol bla bla bla bla”
Me: “Ha. Ok.”
Her: “And so anyways bla bla bla bla blab”
Every time this happens to me (1-2x a month). I get a hopeless feeling in my chest. A sick feeling. Like choosing between starving and eating leftovers out of a dumpster.
Advise to women over 30? Advise to women over 30? Get married before you turn 30.
Dammit I’m pissed off.
fuck ;lkjsdgf;l/kjqwsreg;’khlasdg’;kjlasdfg’;kjasdfg’kj;adsfg;kadsfglkhjqwsdsv ‘pjuo fucker :?KLJSzdf/;lj dammit as;/lkhjsd;lkg fing bull shit s!!! do9nt want you ;ljm.sdflkjsdglkj;ljkasdrgladfbg go away ;lkjmsdfdg;klsdg;kl get lost lkjsdflkjsdfglk lease me alone!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
😦 😦 😦 😦 😦
Good grief, Michael. If you wanted her to leave you alone you should have just drooled all over her. Now, (since I get the impression that this happened in your apartment building?) she’s going to be looking for you. Best of luck to you with that.
😉
“Alpha Males” make it look so easy and I’m tempted to believe its because allot of times women will actually talk to them first. Not only talk but engage in extended dialogue.
Every time one of these women do this feel like It’s like I’m getting the treatment she gave Alpha Males in her 20’s. Except I’m getting it about 15-20 years to late. I used to complain about girls not talking to me first and was told:
“Most girls will come up and talk to the guy first if we see something worth having”
😦
After every one of these spinster encounters I reflect on that statement from 10 years ago. I start to wonder if it’s true. And it makes me sad knowing this when women like the women today approached me.
I guess I wasn’t worth having.
😦
@ Stingray
Lol. Ya. In my apartment building. In the elevator. I’m still stewing. Lol.
Michael, how are the Polish lessons going?
@Michael “Advise to women over 30? Advise to women over 30? Get married before you turn 30.””
CLASSIC !!!!!!!
deti said: And fathers don’t want to tell their daughters to be “submissive” because in today’s culture, “submissive” means “weak, timid, chained to a kitchen, fodder for violence and abuse.” It conjures up caricatured movie images of a pot bellied, unshaven, unkempt man in a “wife-beater” undershirt slapping around and bullying a cowering, weeping woman half his size.
Yep. Based on what I’ve seen and heard all around me, based on my own marriage, those of my family, colleagues, and friends; and based on the fact that feminism is so deeply woven into the very fabric of contemporary society on ALL levels that no one would know where to even begin to remove it, biblical submission in marriage is a non-starter, even for those who call themselves “Christian” (as opposed to run-of-the-mill churchian, where such an attitude is to be expected). Even “Christian” (once again, as opposed to churchian) fathers have generally been so steeped in feminist dogma, without even knowing it, that they at least subconsciously think that any potential husband for their pwecious wittle pwincess is going to be a loutish, irresponsible brute who ultimately beats, demeans, and abandons her. (This, by the way, is perhaps the ultimate measure of feminism’s short-term success: getting men to instinctively and reflexively despise and distrust each other.) On top of that, and more commonly the reason, is that with too few exceptions worth naming, “the Church” has been co-opted by the culture, often willingly so, meaning that this feminist dogma has become as readily accepted as the Scriptures – probably even more so.
Ultimately, however, almost NO woman in the western world today, no matter how “Christian” she portrays herself to be, will EVER “submit” to a husband. Even if she’s clearly aware of the biblical definition of the term (as opposed to the description deti cited that is no doubt the most popular) and even if she clearly understands the Scriptures’ prescriptions on the subject, she WILL NOT do it. There are two main reasons for this.
First, even women in the western world who do not identify as feminists (and may vehemently object to it, at least outwardly) have gained too many “spillover benefits” (to use an economics term) from feminism, mostly in the form of freebies from men and unearned and unsustainable “empowerment” at men’s expense (both of these gained with the help of a government gun in men’s bellies), and freedom from responsibility and accountability. To “submit” to a husband in the biblical sense of the word means a woman giving up/back these unearned bennies and assuming some responsibility and accountability (by submitting to both God and her husband), which is like asking a chronic heroine addict to go clean, cold turkey. It ain’t gonna happen without a lot of nasty kicking, screaming, and violence, if it ever happens at all.
Second, fathers, pastors, church elders, older brothers, various male relations, and other assorted males in positions of authority and influence over women have largely abandoned their headship duties. Again, most are slaves to the current culture AND realize that with headship comes responsibilities, a not-very-popular concept these days, even among those who call themselves “Christian.” Thus, a woman who submits to her husband means that the husband must exercise responsibility for her moral and spiritual well-being as well as major decisions influence her and the family’s lives. Far too many men today either are incapable of taking on such responsibility (having lacked role models in this during their own formative years) or try to avoid it (having been steeped in the adultolescent culture where shirking responsibility for as long as possible is considered a worthy goal). They cannot conceive of it being either desirable or necessary for a woman to “submit.” End result: daddy tells thweet pwincess that it’s up to her to take care of herself, meaning that she sees no reason to submit to ANYBODY, much less any man, one she probably can’t trust anyway. (And daddy wonders why his own marriage is either on life support or dead and buried.)
Will any of this change any time soon? Who knows, but unless those of us here who are discussing the issue swell to something close to a majority, I can’t be optimistic.
Women do not submit because the laws of misandry make it unnecessary. If being a submissive and good wife gets them the best deal. You will see feminine smiles and tenderness on every corner. “Old fashion” days women have this image of feminine virtue chase because before the laws of misandry and men had real constitutional rights that were recognized that was how a woman took care of herself. (the pretty ones usually did better than the less attractive ones) They were no different than the frivorce skanks we have today. Both doing what they think is best for her. Wicked selfishness made productive by civilization. I bet they have no problem with submission or just plain helpfulness from women in Syria right now ( Syria’s Civil War: Assad’s Fall Could Mean an Alawite Genocide) type that in and check out the article very graphic. Sometimes people need to be reminded about what the collapse and “let it all burn” really means and what it looks like.
@ Michael
“Advise to women over 30? Advise to women over 30? Get married before you turn 30.”
This should really be added to the bible somewhere………preferably near the FRONT.
Can I get an ‘Amen’, brothers?
You get the “Amen” from me, Casey.
Imagine a bakery whose business model was for the first four days after stuff came out of the oven to let in only broke people, giving away the goods to them while locking out the would-be paying customers. Only when crumbs are left, do they let in the latter people, and try (!) to charge them full price. Not much of a business plan…
Not some, not many, but MOST American women now follow this as their de facto life plan for marriage and family. It’s no wonder that many men think, as I do, that not only do young women are NOT the best potential deciders of whom they should marry (that belongs to their fathers, informed but not equally by their mothers). Neither should they have the vote.
““Alpha Males” make it look so easy and I’m tempted to believe its because allot of times women will actually talk to them first. Not only talk but engage in extended dialogue.”
Women usually talk to me first, but it seems to be a hit and miss thing. Some women I’m absolute magic to, but not all of them. I’m probably more of an Omega than an Alpha though, maybe there’s something in some women that can’t help but be fascinated by the moth that isn’t fluttering about their flame. But, I’m not married, so I haven’t attracted a marriageable woman yet… so does it make a difference in the end that I get approached until I do get approached by a marriageable woman?
Women in their late thirties and beyond should not be marrying: although the average age of death is three score and ten, in fact the grim reaper pretty consistently scythes humans from about the age of forty five and at twenty per cent per decade. Few die before 45 or 50 but by 55 or 60 20% are gone and so it continues until 95 or 100 by which time we are all dead. The wife of a lawyer acquaintance of mine who met her whilst at Cambridge (she was a fellow student) married her then and had children early and it was just as well that they did, for tragically she succumbed in her mid forties to some disease. If you leave it until you are 40 or above it is not just that you will merely have a trophy child (children need siblings) but that there is a considerable chance that you will never see any grand children and perhaps not even last until your child is even adult.
Carousel Riding and pursuing a career are so much more fun, it seems.
Physical beauty & sexual allure are the currency of a younger woman.
She would be wise not to squander her capital, for that which is lost to the sands of time cannot be replenished.
@ donalgraeme
Ha. Russian lessons. Russians really hard! However after seeing a recent couple from the Ukraine, It’s encouraging!
Once upon a time…..
An attractive young westernized female inherited a kitchen in a castle. At the center was long banquet table covered with the best made from scratch home cooking imaginable; succulent fruits and vegetables; fresh award winning meals desserts and scrumptious delicacies.
“Look at those long lines! There are so many patrons! So many to choose from! This banquet should be reservation only! No: This is my banquet. I’m in charge. I will decide who sits and who stands. After all, one of these lucky patrons will purchase the banquet and kitchen hall permanently.”
Her large castle like doors slowly creak open. It’s time to make her decision.
All the hungry shoeless shirtless CADS, line cutters, vagrants, losers, players, wanna be musicians, aspiring D.J.s, artistic bums, and Alpha male ‘dine and dashers’ come pouring in to feast at her banquet table.
“Come in!”
“Come in!”
“Come in!!”.
Meanwhile, the good men wait outside. She has plans for them later. So she closes the door and a blizzard sets in. Temperatures outside plummet to -200 below zero. The good men start freezing to death. She occasionally peeks outside the window to make sure they are still alive.
“Don’t worry! Nice guys finish first with me in the end!”
Meanwhile her party rages. The shoeless shirtless CADS, vagrants, losers, players, wanna be musicians, aspiring D.J.s, artistic bums, and ‘dine and dashers’ eagerly tear into her feast, chomping, licking, and slurping up her scrumptious succulent dishes and drinks. Not even her kitchens and storerooms go untouched. She toasts so much her arm gets sore and she has to file a social services claim.
Time goes on. The good men are still outside. The shoeless shirtless CADS, vagrants, losers, players, wanna be musicians, aspiring D.J.’s, artistic type bums, and Alpha male ‘dine and dashers’ are getting full. They start to get up. However at first she is too drunk on feminism and self entitlement to realize they have skipped away without paying the bill, let alone purchasing the castle. Suddenly she realizes what’s going on:
“Hey babe your sign said it was free!”. They laugh as they leave.
She jumps up and runs to open her castle doors for the good men. To her shock it’s springtime outside. The harsh blizzard has passed. Only a few good men are still thawing out.
“Come in gentlemen! Come in! I’m ready for you now!” “I’ve saved the best for last!” She shouts.
—–
The banquet table is a mess. There are sloppy dishes and leftovers everywhere. Anything left over is tainted, stale or inedible. A few losers are still passed out under the table. She still needs to get their names so she can friend them later on Facebook.
“Time for you to clean up the mess! There are sloppy dishes for you! Get to it. Hurry up and clean the floor! Fill my castle with food and prove to me you deserve to eat here! What are you waiting for for? Eat those leftovers!”
Suddenly she notices these good, honest well dressed successful, family oriented providers are not sitting down to eat her “succulent dishes”. She panics. Her time is limited. She needs a sucker to sigh that contract.
“I expect full payment! My tastes are better now. I’m an experienced confident women. You should only be so lucky to have me! I’m older and hotter and know what I want. “I expect a signature on my castle contract. Someone has to pay for this!”
Suddenly the castle bishop walks in: “What’s going on here!? Why is she still standing here?” “Man up and marry that slut!”
@Michael – CLASSIC to the nth degree !!!!!!
Wow. I read a great deal of the comments here and I feel heartbroken.
I am 33 and unmarried. I was married, once. He was FAR from an alpha male, but his nice attitude changed shortly after marriage. He took us into bankruptcy and was abusive. I ended the marriage.
I have no kids.
I am *very* shy.
I feel I am attractive, but not overly much. I don’t consider myself a trophy by any means.
I am 5′ 3″ and 130lbs
I don’t socialize much. I will not set foot in a bar. I live in a rural area (not in or near any big cities) and there are limited opportunities to meet people.
I am nice and don’t have high standards. I do not want children.
—
Reading this site makes me feel hopeless. Am I really unable to find someone to share life with simply because I am 33?
Couple of “red flag” stand outs.
I. “I dont want kids”. When a woman says that it means this:
– cant have children
or
– I want kids but I am lying to get a husband.
II. 5’3″ at 130lbs is way too “healthy. Honestly at 5’3” you should be wearing clothes no larger that a size 2.
If I were a size 2 I would be nothing but skin and bones. I’m not saying that loosing a little weight wouldn’t be a good thing, but I am far from fat. I wear a size 8.
You know nothing about me other than the small snippet I posted. I don’t want kids. I never have. You can assume I am lying or infertile, but that doesn’t make it true.
Maybe I should ignore most of what is here if all you guys want is super model stick figures who want to be stay at home moms. Which is the impression I get from your reply.
@Wyst
A word of advice (seeing that you are looking for a shoulder to cry on): You are unlikely to gain much sympathy here – as everyone commenting here is surely a woman hating mysogynist who delights in female misery – for even from the limited details that you have provided, and beyond the ‘woe is poor me’ stuff, the facts are that you were married but chose to end that marriage, and now you say you don’t want children, which is a little as if a man would say that he bewails being unable to find a woman to marry but does not want to work when he does so. A desire for voluntary childlessness is hardly a great selling-point when attempting to attract a man – consider whether a convent might not be what you would really prefer – away from all those nasty men, and remember that you do not have a great track record, for any man should be asking himself: ‘If she has bailed on marriage once why should it be any different with me?’ You need an answer to that, and what you have so far provided is not really adequate, is it! Further: a man with options, would surely, even if you can overcome the above objection, be seeking a woman of a more appropriate age, that is to say mid twenties, rather than mid-thirties, so if he wants you, then what is wrong with him – perhaps he too has limited options? We only know what you tell us so it is a little unfair to blame Michael Singer for using the only information that you have provided to make an assessment. You should be grateful that a commenter of his calibre is prepared to provide time of day to even consider your problem. Gratitude is something so far lacking from your comments.
More generally: I am prepared to bet that when you unilaterally ended your marriage you had at least unconsciously performed a cost/benefit analysis that a new and better and richer man would be yours for the taking. As I have heard your tale many times before (when I did this kind of stuff as a lawyer) I am also not prepared to bet that it was not his but your financial impecuniousness that led your kindly husband to despair as you failed to respond to his leadership.
By the way you are not Unmarried, as you suggest, but Divorced – your marriage has been dissolved. You are not a Spinster, but a Divorcee. I make no comment on your weight as I know little of such things – is 130 really lbs a lot? 33 is not too old, but it is not 23.
@ Wyst
Let’s end the suspense. Do you receive alimony from your EX?
@wyst “I wear a size 8.”
Which is a strong indicator of no exercise, no diet, no discipline, no self control, no physical activity, and no fun to do things with, and have no stamina in sack, argumentative, no self inflection, defensive – do I really need to continue ?
You are a self inflicted casualty and don’t even know it.
As mentioned, a size 2 (fit /tone/muscle) would do wonders for you physically, mentally, emotionally and get you going in the “right direction” – it is a “healthy lifestyle” – get it ?
As you are right now, how would you like to meet a man “just like you” ? LOL !!!
I find it funny and hypocritical that women have higher expectations for men than what they have for themselves
@ Michael Singer
“I find it funny and hypocritical that women have higher expectations for men than what they have for themselves.”
Ahmen to that, brother.
@wyst “if all you guys want is super model stick figures who want to be stay at home moms”
LOL… Every woman I know wants to be ” a stay at home mom”. And yes I expect my significant other to diet, exercise, and take care of herself.
It is simply “doing the best with what you have” (As a side note, a woman has to have a smaller waist than me. )
Your “no kid” gig is a shallow lie- the biological urge for children in women is insatiable. It is very much hard wired in genetically.
LOL- way to many career women have suddenly changed their mind and have have wanted children at a later age.
As mentioned, women that don’t want kids either cant or are lying- this cannot be denied.
Just keep on doing what your doing(don’t change) and please report back “how it is working for you” 🙂
Micheal Singer
getting some of that game huh? agree and amplify.
Thanks but I dont know if it is “game”. I am just SHOCKED at the lack of introspection from woman. I wish I would have know this information WAY before my failed 17 year marriage and 2 engagements post divorce.
Unless a women trades her “rationalization hamster” for the “realization hamster” she is harmful to herself and all around her.
Marriage and children go hand in hand.
Women circa 2013 put off having children, just like they put off marriage to a good man (keyword: good man). All through the peak of their physical beauty and fertility in their prime 20’s.
Many women openly professed not to want children in their 20’s.
They were sincere.
Why? Because they were having fun. The “smarter” ones instinctively knew having sex with a string of uncommitted losers would not pay off. Hence the need for birth control. They could always wait until the last minute for a responsible quality provider to have children with – if and when they changed their minds.
Unfortunately they did not take into biological reality or how men would perceive them at 30+ (a stranger) into consideration.
@Michael. Here is some insight from a old dude.
The ex-wife could not have kids. The emotional stress and blame was detrimental (she blamed me for her endometriosis and inability to conceive).
I have dated since my divorce and have seen women in their late 30’s change their viewpoints (ie lie) later into the relationship.
My post divorce engagement experience also included highly educated (double masters to doctorate level) and were career women. In review of their marriage/divorce – they “lied” to their ex-husbands about not wanting kids and then later changing their mind. Interesting enough, these women “divorced” their fathers because they were weren’t good fathers.
One of them actually “got it” after some serious discussion that the failed marriage was MOSTLY “her fault” since she had the guy was a great husband (ie “fun”) but :
– married a guy who didn’t want kids
-“amended” the original marriage agreement and forced kids down his throat
– divorced a guy who wasn’t a good father
She had amended the original agreement and once I communicated and put into real world terms that she committed a “breech of contract” she “got it”. After we broke off the engagement – she even attempted to get back together with the ex hubby ( I have seen this quite often).
I really blame the American pastors promoting pastors who are promoting feminism, easy divorce, and adultery. The Christian pastors are not used to being confronted/challenged by a single male Messianic Jew with OT/NT scriptures and literally act like Jr High School girls.
~Shalom
Opus said: As I have heard your tale many times before (when I did this kind of stuff as a lawyer) I am also not prepared to bet that it was not his but your financial impecuniousness that led your kindly husband to despair as you failed to respond to his leadership.
Yep, that’s the very first thought that entered my mind as soon as wyst made the statement “[h]e took us into bankruptcy and was abusive.”
I’d be willing to wager that he “took [them] into bankruptcy” because he had no choice – probably because she wouldn’t stop her reckless spending. (I dare any man to try to FORCE his wife to stop spending. It ain’t possible, friends. You can’t stop her, and her debts become YOUR debts). Her definition of “abusive” is probably just a description of her husband having to use well justified rage and screaming to berate her for her irresponsible spending that was forcing them into bankruptcy. He knew his financial health was being destroyed because of HER, and it was his last, desperate attempt to correct her, one that she rejected.
Do I know this is the case here for sure? No, but I’ve seen it happen often enough (including in my own marriage, where only the real threat of us losing our home got my wife to straighten up, fly right, turn her credit cards over to me, swallow some common sense pills, and FINALLY accept my fiscal headship) to know that it’s the most painfully common fiscal scenario in a marriage. I have no reason to think, based on what she’s posted here so far, that wyst’s case is any exception. If it’s not, then she herself dug the hole in which she finds herself.
Am I really unable to find someone to share life with simply because I am 33?
In your own words not overly much
A 33 years old woman can be a good find for a dude in his 50’s
Wyst:
I read your comment. First off, you’ve been getting some hostility because you came in here denigrating the other commenters for negative comments You offered vague information designed to paint you in as favorable a light as possible while blaming your divorce 100% on your ex husband, and you accused your ex husband with the amorphous buzzword “offense” of being “abusive” (more on this later). After receiving a bit of pushback you then reverted to shaming language, accusing the commentariat here of wanting nothing but “super model stick figures who want to be stay at home moms” when you in fact know nothing of the sort. This sort of shaming language is old hat around here and carries absolutely no water whatsoever, so I’d recommend you avoid it in the future if you’re still reading.
Now, let’s get down to brass tacks. Don’t answer here; just answer to yourself.
1. How many lifetime sex partners have you had? Anyone dating you will want to know this. This indicates your ability to bond, your overall character, and the value you put on relationships with men.
2. What, exactly, were the precise circumstances surrounding your divorce? Be completely honest and disclose everything that led up to it, and I do mean EVERYTHING. You said he forced you into bankruptcy. How, EXACTLY? What role did you play in that bankruptcy? And—this is important – you said he was “abusive”. The word “abuse” and its various forms are extremely overworked around these parts, and we view claims of male on female “abuse” with a healthy degree of skepticism. The way I see it, some things are “abuse”, and some things definitely are NOT “abuse”. How, EXACTLY, was your husband “abusive” to you? Be as descriptive and precise as you possibly can, and be honest. I am extremely perceptive, and I will see through any attempt to embellish or conceal.
These things are “abuse”:
— Real, actual, physical violence involving actual hitting, punching, kicking, pushing, or use or threatened use of deadly force when not undertaken in self-defense.
And if you were really, actually physically abused, I’ll ask:
Did you contact the police? If not, why not? Did you swear out a complaint or press charges? If not, why not?
Did you seek medical treatment? If not, why not?
Did you document exactly what happened when it happened? Names, dates, places, things said? If not, why not?
Did you take photographs of the abuse? If not, why not?
These things are NOT abuse:
–Loud arguing involving yelling, shouting, screaming, crying, or raising voices.
–Putting you on a budget or requiring you to be accountable for the money you spend.
–Asking you about the money you spend.
–Expecting you to account reasonably for your whereabouts.
–Asking and wanting to know about your friends, your family, and generally with whom and where you spend your time. Asking you to account for your whereabouts at any given time. Asking who you were talking to on the telephone or chatting with on Facebook or text messaging.
–Expecting you to submit to your husband’s leadership.
–Telling you that you may not make a major purchase or undertake a certain activity because your husband believes it to be injurious, detrimental, unwise, or generally a bad idea.
–Asking for certain sexual acts or practices. Expecting frequent and regular sex.
–Asking you to cook, clean or otherwise take care of the house.
–Asking you to maintain your physical appearance in a manner pleasing to him.
–Asking you to wear certain clothes, keep a certain hairstyle, and/or lose weight.
–offering gentle criticisms of your weight.
–Your husband undertaking defensive postures and restraining you from hitting, striking, pushing, or otherwise physically injuring him.
If your husband did not actually put his hands on you and cause or threaten to cause, real, actual, physical injury to your body, then you were NOT “abused” and he was NOT “abusive”.
That’s for starters. Chew on that, and I’ll be back with more in a moment.
@ Ton “A 33 years old woman can be a good find for a dude in his 50′s”
I am late in my late 40’s and what is offered simply not disciplined nor attractive.
Wyst:
Part II.
Some of these observations might surprise or even shock you, so be forewarned.
Why do you not want children? Be honest. Is it because you cannot have children? Most women do want children of their own; it is the very, very rare woman who does NOT want to be a stay at home wife and mother. This is a red flag. You need to have an answer for this when you start getting serious with a guy. This is unusual, especially for a shy woman living in a rural area who doesn’t bar hop.
You’re not “unmarried”. You’re divorced. You need to be willing to explain why, and what happened, and reassure a serious suitor that you’re not going to bail on him when the going gets tough. Your divorce is a big, big red flag. I’d have serious, serious reservations about getting into an LTR with a divorced woman, even a childless one.
While we’re on that subject, your stated background indicates you don’t get out to meet available, marriageable men very much. You’re shy, you live in a rural area (not many inhabitants), and you don’t engage in the usual nightlife/social life activities common to rural areas. You’re limiting your availability, and you’re limiting your ability to meet men. You’re limiting your ability to meet people who could introduce you to men.
What are your standards for a man? You need to make an honest assessment of what you’re looking for, and then make another honest assessment of whether you can reasonably “get” that in a man. Most women in your position have standards for men which are unreasonably high. If you are a 33 year old divorcee who really doesn’t want children, you probably should consider:
–men 40 years old and up
–divorced/widowed men with children in which you assume the stepmother role
–men a bit below the physical standards of men you previously dated/were married to
You need to decide how important love and a relationship are to you. Are they worth overcoming your shyness? Are they worth getting out there and meeting new people? Worth stepping out of your comfort zones? Worth perhaps going to bars to meet people and get practice socializing (not to go home with a guy)?
Are you willing to adjust your standards and wants? What are you willing to do to get a relationship if you really want one?
Are you willing to lower your standards if it becomes clear to you that you’re not attractive enough to get and keep a relationship with a very high status man? Are you willing to relocate for a man? Are you willing to do online dating? Are you willing to consider an older man? A younger man? Are you willing to recognize and understand the difference between what you would ideally want and what you can reasonably get; and make that work for you? Are you willing to submit to a dominant man’s leadership? Are you willing to engage in a covenant marriage which doesn’t involve a marriage certificate or legal marriage?
Make an honest assessment of your physical appearance. You said you’re average; not drop dead gorgeous but not ugly; 5 foot 3 inches and 130 pounds. Consider the following:
Long hair is better than short hair.
Dresses and skirts are feminine, and are better than pants.
Tastefully applied makeup, every time you go out.
Dressed to look good every time you go out. No slobbing out when you go out and about. No sweat pants. No flip flops. No t-shirts. (Remember, you live in a rural area where everyone knows everyone. I know this; I grew up in a small town where everyone’s up in your business all the time.)
Tattoos? No. Cover em up or get them removed.
Piercings? Ears only; no more than two in each ear.
Heels? If you date a tall guy, wear them. They make your legs look great, they thrust out the chest and the derriere. Heels are feminine and accentuate the best parts of a woman’s body.
No cleavage displays.
Your life and domestic skills. What do you do for a living? What hours do you work? Do you travel a lot? Do you even have time for a relationship? Can you cook, clean, take care of a house? Can you make healthy, appealing meals; or does that just not appeal to you?
Last thing. How’s your health overall, physical and mental? Any history of mental health problems? Depression? BPD? Bipolar? ADHD? Ever been treated for an addiction of any kind? All this needs to be disclosed fully. Any history of STDs, ever in your life? Any chronic conditions like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, arthritis, high blood pressure or family history of any of these?
Look, I know you probably don’t want to hear this, but at age 33, you are either at the very end of or past your peak physical attractiveness. Whoever dates you now will not get the benefit of your peak attractiveness. So you will need to make up for it in other ways. A man doesn’t want to take on a woman whose body is falling apart; and if he decides to take on that risk he has a right to know what he’s getting into. Mental health issues are huge; he will not want to take on a woman with deep seated mental problems. Those issues portend an inability to cope with the trials and tribulations of life; a tendency to blame others for one’s problems; and a propensity to run away from and avoid problems instead of facing them head on and dealing with and addressing them.
Hope this helps get you started and on the right track. Good luck.
@Deti – I think you are a “undercover white knight”
I’ll be honest, I am not reading all the replies. I do appreciate those of you posting real advice for me, thank you! I don’t have high standards or “a list” of needed attributes. So, I am fine with being realistic.
I don’t get any alimony. He did make the financial choices in the relationship. He chose to take a new job in a different state that didn’t pay for any moving expenses and didn’t pay hardly any more. I packed up everything in the house, my parents moved the furniture. I actually made more money, I have a BS in Biology and work in a lab. He was a journalist. You can believe me or not, but it was indeed his poor choices that forced us into bankruptcy.
I do not wish to discuss the abuse. It is over and I have moved on. There is no more contact between him and I. He moved to another state.
I know I am different than most women, but I honestly dislike children. I have no siblings and the interactions I have had with kids are not positive in nature. I do know many like-minded women though, so it isn’t unheard of.
—
Again, I do thank those of you who have posted tips to help me. I will be taking these to heart!
I am likely not going to post more, as my personal life details are my own. I work full time and make good money. I don’t care to get someone who makes less. All I want is someone who cares about me and will share life’s journey with me.
Interesting enough what is a “lab rat ” with a BS degree working in a lab in a “rural area” – that is a bit of non sequitur. Labs are in well populated areas the last time I checked.
I have had the pleasure of knowing (quite well) and working with a number of “lab rats” over the years while I worked in the biotech field. Interestingly enough many of them were very smart, poised, educated, did quite $$$ well, and lived in Southern California (San Diego/Los Angles where there are NO shortage of men)
Till this very day, ALL of them are unmarried despite by their best intentions to marry.
Along my career, I worked & became friends with a divorced “modern” Islamic woman who had a masters from Kent State whose husband had left her for a younger woman (stupid guy).
Imo, she is the epitome of morals, femininity, discipline, and grace. She had well over 15 marriage proposals despite being divorced, mid 30’s, and a child from a previous marriage. She finally married a man from German royalty (the fear of Islamic religion was dismissed when the parents met her and her family). Btw, they are still married to this day and doing well.
Comparing her to the group of never married women who never got a serious proposal (all educated / rank 8-10/$$$,big cities ) and wondering where all the “good men are at ?” I could go into details why they never married and are still unmarried but the bottom line is “they never got it”.
@ Wyst
Wyst said: “I don’t care to get someone who makes less.”
If I can take that phrase as it reads, it sounds like you want a man to make more than you? (Or was it a typo?)
Hypergamy is old hat around here, and if you are engaged in it…….you are fighting an uphill battle. Your prospect list just became that much shorter.
At 33, 130 lbs, size 8, divorced, don’t like children, and admittedly shy………you probably need to do (as Dalrock said) some thoughtful pruning on your ‘husband’ list.
Let me read your husband list as it stands:
* Makes more money than you
* Doesn’t have children
* Doesn’t want children
* Doesn’t pay alimony or child support
* Ideally has never been married
* Is OK with dating someone who needs to lose 15 – 20 lbs.
* Is OK dating/marrying a divorced woman
So with that list, you are drawing from a very small candidate pool before considering the rural ‘land-lock’ you are in.
The one thing you have going for you is you aren’t drawing alimony from your EX (from the man’s perspective).
@ Casey- you are being far too kind. Try 25lbs to 30lbs over.1 size = 10 lbs hence size 8 to a size 2 is 3 sizes = 30 lbs minimum 25 lbs).
@mikesinger,
Didn’t follow all of the responses but:
Interesting enough what is a “lab rat ” with a BS degree working in a lab in a “rural area” – that is a bit of non sequitur. Labs are in well populated areas the last time I checked.
Is not true. Some are some aren’t. Many bio labs aren’t. Many tech labs are. If she says she’s working in bio labs it is very possible she is out in the country. It reduces:
1.) Protestors
2.) Break-ins (animal “rights” protestors if it is a testing lab)
3.) Neighbor complaints
4.) Environmental impact hurdles
Now feel free to poke away at any real crazy stuff she is posting. I didn’t read what she said.
@wyst – Deti posted some great information for you. Take it to heart.
Try to find a divorced man 10-15 years older than you who already has kids from a previous marriage so that he might not mind that you don’t want any. His kids may live with their mother, and so you may not really have to spend much time with them, but do honestly and sincerely be nice with them if he has them.
If he has married before, he will be more acceptable into getting into a married relationship with a divorcée in her 30’s as opposed to a single guy. The divorced man will be looking for a woman who is pleasant to both look at and pleasant to be around. He wants companionship and someone to take care of him by cooking, keeping the house tidy, and washing and ironing his clothes. You maybe could get outside help once or twice a week with the housework, but don’t expect him to do any of it. If he does, then it’s a bonus.
@Michael Singer: You mentioned women should have a smaller waist than you… and it reminded me of a fact that accidentally slipped in an article a couple months ago. The article was in the line of ‘heavy used to be hot’, afterall the average woman had 36-38 inch hips in past eras too. The fact that slipped was that while the average waist on women today is in the realm of 36″ as well… the ‘curvy’ women of former generations had waists averaging less than 30″. Women today aren’t the same as the Marilyn Monroes of previous generations. The article didn’t highlight the fact, but rather gave it a way when they compared the average female figure (along the lines of 36-24-36) of the present and in the 50’s… and gave away what’s changed… women are getting thicker around the midsection than they used to be.
@GKChesteron – what you mentioned is true.
However, I am referring to “general rule of the thumb” vs your “exception to the rule” since it is very difficult to attract scientist, bioengineers as such to rural settings.
Any idea why the big pharma & bio-techs moved their research labs from the New Jersey/East Coast to the West Coast ? Location…Location… Location makes for a attractive package. San Diego/Bay Area has become a hotbed for research the last decade or so.
Sorry to say but in review what she is offering, there will be few if any takers regardless where she is at.
How many guys are going to sign up for a +30lb who doesn’t want kids due to personality conflicts and a failed first marriage in which “she did nothing wrong” ? (this screams damaged goods all the way around- no pun intended).
I suggest she get professional help since she has a great benefit package who will help sort through and replace the “rationalization” hamster with a new and improved “realization” hamster.
@ They Call Me Tom”women are getting thicker around the midsection than they used to be.”
This is truth !!! I recently moved back to So Cal after a number of years and was quite shocked by this. WHOA !!!!!
I don’t mind a little wide hipped or a bubble butt – it can be quite attractive.
However, the “thick” mid-section destroys the female symmetry and attractiveness. It reminds me of a refrigerator.
Many of the femnazi’s are shaming men for not “loving women” as they are (Just as Wyst indirectly did above “All I want is someone who cares about me and will share life’s journey with me”)
In addition, if it is there now there is a very strong chance it is only going to get worse with marriage.
Needless to say it seems a fit, proportioned, well disciplined, feminine, and physically active women is a really rare find at ANY age these days.
I’ll add but not too much fun because…
To use some Bible lingo: some demons can only be cast out by fasting. Adapting to a reduced-fun standard of living is hard. Studies bear out that it takes years to accomplish and backsliding into those habits of spend now, suffer the plastic’s big outstanding balance later is easy. And let’s face it, virtually every girl in the city develops the habit. So she must get busy doing the hard stuff of – to use some Bible lingo – going and sinning no more now. Think of it as a purgatory in preparation of putting on the white garment later when the bridegroom arrives.
And of course she should get herself on a sexual fast too. She must push out the toxic memories of all those Alpha Player gina tingles or she’ll waste away unhappy. There are techniques for re-imaging past memories so they don’t impair one’s good judgment going forward. Use ’em.
what I found interesting about wyst’s followup comments was that she blames her husband 100% for the divorce. They divorced in part because he was “abusive”. They went bankrupt because he took a job in another state making no more money than he had before.
It’s all him. It’s always him. Whenever women come to the ‘sphere to report a divorce, that divorce is always, always, ALWAYS 100% HIS fault.
Just once I’d like to see a woman come here and say something like “I’m a divorced woman, and you know what? Some of it was actually my fault. I own my part in the breakup of my marriage.”
And I’d also like to see a woman actually substantiate the “abuse” part. I’d like to see a woman say “yeah, he was really abusive because he was getting drunk and beating me up” or “he was beating the kids”. Not the “he would ignore me” or “he would yell at me sometimes after he had a tough day at work”.
Just once I’d like to see a woman come here and say “yeah, my marriage went down the tubes and I played a big part in that.”
@Deti – I have seen both. However, it is is rare. I dated a woman who took blame / responsibility for her divorce. She was the “exception to the rule” compared to the rest. Regardless, she was still emotionally “burnt toast and ver crispy around the edges”.
She left her first husband of whom she had two kids for a “alpha” and committed the classic “feral / hypergamous” fling of the highest proportion (The guy was a bouncer / body builder for Madonna of whom she trapped with a child out of wedlock.)
Needless to say, she regrets her first divorce and hates the ex-husband from the second marriage. Interestingly, she readily admits her mistake and knows she is not relationship material and has self inflicted emotional damage.
It is quite a shame since she is educated, smart, beautiful, and a year round physique that exceeds that of Dara Torres.
I’ve read Mrs. Feldhahn’s book and it’s one that I’ve recommended too. (But I recommend Dr. Warren Farrell’s Why Men Are the Way They Are more highly.) I recollect that she says women want to be cherished and men want to be respected – men want to be loved just as much as females do; the difference has to do with how people of each sex understand what being loved means and how they prefer to receive love.
Butterfly Flower wondered, “I can’t imagine an adult voluntarily staying single.” Ha, as if this outcome is totally voluntary! As the song goes, “Lemon tree, very pretty and the flower is so sweet. But the fruit of the poor lemon is impossible to eat.” Too many American females fit the Lemon Profile and as you wrote, Anonymous Reader, “Men don’t want to be around that sort of thing, and they avoid women who are contempuous.” Or who are difficult, hard to please, demanding, emotionally needy — I’ll add.
(Hmm, time to bring back the quaint institution of charm school.)
“I’ll be honest, I am not reading all the replies”.
-Lol
“He chose to take a new job in a different state that didn’t pay for any moving expenses and didn’t pay hardly any more.”
-This is one of the main reasons she divorces? Ha Ha Ha. Perhaps it was an better opportunity? Long term planning perhaps? Hey man. My first “job” was working full time for free as an intern for 6 months. Sitting in with senior staff researching regulations consulting clients constructing positions and learning everything scratch from A-Z. People laughed at me for working for free. But in the long term it paid off 100 x over. It gave me connections and hands on experience I needed to command a higher starting salary. Imagine if I had a women yelling at me calling me an idiot for working full time for free, demanding I get a regular job instead, to help buy her the things she “deserved”.
“I do not wish to discuss the abuse. It is over and I have moved on.”
-Lol.
“I do thank those of you who have posted tips to help me. I will be taking these to heart!”
“I work full time and make good money. I don’t care to get someone who makes less.”
-Lol
” All I want is someone who cares about me and will share life’s journey with me.”
-I’m having Match.com flashbacks.
I cannot say that Wyst’s follow-up has impressed me.
I seem to recall that she married ‘for better or worse’ but we are led to believe that her marriage vows had the alternative phrase, ‘unless he is made bankrupt’ in other words, we are looking at female Hypergamy. I am also suspicious of the alleged Bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is fairly rare unless one is embarking on a business venture and as her husband is a journalist, it is difficult to see how – and she gives no clues – he could have reached such an impecunious state. She could have explained – it is hardly a personal matter – but she chooses not to do so. Many a marriage however survived Bankruptcy as Bankruptcies end after a few years and then the person can start again! One is no longer imprisoned for debt. At the moment she is the one making money (so why did she not help her husband out?)
Neither do I buy into all this (excuse of) ‘I am shy’. I take that as code for ‘I will only give it up for some guy who makes my Gina Tingle’ – and I am betting that when she meets that guy the baby-rabies will set in too. Her failure to give even a clue as to what the abuse amounted to (and dear god how often have I heard the claim of abuse) persuades me that such abuse as there was can have been none other than him putting his foot down as a responsible husband. When we try to pin her down on exactly how her husband was abusive we are then told that these are private matters and that she has moved on, in other words she is making it up to make herself look like a victim.
Unfortunately Dalrock’s is hardly the best place in the universe to come to, if you are seeking a White Knight (or a mangina) although she has of course had half a dozen or so men fussing over her which was presumably her intention – some go to Facebook others….
How about this for non-sequitor: ‘I’ll be honest [which part of her messages by the way aren’t honest] ‘I am not reading all the replies’ and then later ‘I thank those who have been posting tips I will be taking them to heart’.
p.s. no one ever paid for my moving expenses!
I’m 42 Mike, and rarely date women in their 30’s but will that hold true when I am 50? Who knows? Unlike a lot of reports, I see no shortage of early 30’s gals with nice bodies and seems to me many dudes would be happy with them physically…. most fellas don’t train 2-3 times a day 4-7 days a week which I believe is reason #1girls are willing to date me when I am 15-20 years older than her.
As for the gash, all she wants is someone who cares for her and will share life’s journeys with her….. and yet she has a check list. Really too predictable to be funny any more.
@ Wyst
Wyst said: “Reading this site makes me feel hopeless. Am I really unable to find someone to share life with simply because I am 33?”
No, Wyst…..you are unable to find someone because you are unwilling to do any of the work to attract a man, nor take any of the responsibility for your failed marriage.
@deti:
Concerning the idea of “honesty” from women who drop by here, don’t hold your breath. Granted, I’ve seen a few drop by in other threads who have posed questions or sought the manosphere perspective in a genuinely respectful and sincere way, and these are the women who are generally treated with courtesy and respect in return. However, they are the rare exception to the norm. What we usually see are wyst’s type, the ones who swoop into the fray of conversation out of nowhere, immediately begin whining about all the “hateful, misogynist comments” and then launch into a blamestorming sob story about their own “victimhood” at the hands of a man (or multiple men) who was/were demons in human form, her suffering being ALL his/their fault, she having been merely an innocent little flower. Given the very unpleasant responses that are the logically expected result of such an approach, examples of which are scattered all over this site, one would think that such women would think twice, thrice, or more about making their introduction in this way. But alas, no, the brain stem overpowers, and the default emotional response emerges.
I think simple logic dictates that such women will continue to constitute the majority of those who visit. Facts, logic, and accountability aren’t prevalent traits in the gynosphere. The rare exceptions that manifest themselves should be embraced and welcomed, but they will never be the majority.
I love how all of the guys on here think they know what every other guy in the world wants in a woman. First of all, not all guys want children. I was divorced with no children at 31 years old and found myself looking for a new partner. Finding a woman who did not have or want children was not an easy thing. I joined an online dating site and as a 6′ tall, attractive male making a good salary, I had women flocking to me. The problem was almost all of them wanted to get married and have children immediately.
Then I was contacted by a 37 year old divorced woman. She had many of the characteristics that Deti seems to find so unappealing. She has relatively short hair and it’s actually shorter now than it was when me met. She has tattoos and a few piercings over his arbitrary limit of 2 per ear. She wasn’t exactly my type and was actually much thinner than my ex-wife. Not all guys want a size 2 woman. She also lived almost 2 hours away from me when we met. There were so many things making me think that we would never get beyond a first date, but I went ahead with it anyway. Three years later we are married and it has been the most amazing three years of both of our lives.
I might be a rare find, but with the exception of being divorced, I exactly match the description of Wyst’s husband list as summarized by Casey. Rural landlock can be overcome by utilizing this amazing thing called the internet. I would have never found my wife by going out to bars, but because she was living in a very rural area she expanded her search radius and found me. So, despite what the guys on this site believe or want you to believe, men like me are out there. Try browsing through some childfree websites and you will find plenty of guys wishing they could find a woman who doesn’t want children.
@ Opus
Opus said: “One is no longer imprisoned for debt.”
Disagree, if you are a man who owes alimony/child support….you absolutely CAN be imprisoned for your debts.
it is very hard for us straight guys that are hoping to meet a good woman to share a life with since many of us are just coming out of a divorce, and we just hope to meet the right one this time around especially after having our wife cheated on us.
@CF Man:
To each his own. I’m glad that you found the woman of your dreams. Seriously. And I agree with you that no two preferences are alike and that stereotypes and assumptions don’t universally apply.
Bear in mind, though, that what we are talking about here are GENERALITIES, rules and facts that are most commonly encountered, as well as pitfalls that very often happen, thought NOT ALWAYS. Exceptions to the rules can and do occur. You are one of them.
CF Man:
The point was not my trying to state that I know what every other man wants in a woman. I clearly don’t.
The point, at least in part, was to get wyst to consider the following crucial question that every woman in her position should be asking herself, and that is (H/T M3):
“What do I have to offer?”
Because that’s what men are (or at least should be) asking women, more or less directly.
“What do you, as a woman, have to offer me? Why should I invest time, money and resources into a relationship with you? What attractive traits or characteristics do you have that I want?”
According to the information Wyst was willing to disclose, her sole selling point is that she is a nonobese female available for marriage.
Sorry, but she’ll have to do better than “I’m not grossly fat and I have a functioning vagina”, particularly when she has the negatives of:
–age 33 and either past the Wall or about to hit it any day now
–initiated a divorce from her ex husband because he “forced” them into bankruptcy
–dislikes children
–demands a man who outearns her
–a bankruptcy on her financial record
–claims her ex husband was “abusive”
Because you can bet women are asking that of men, sizing them up, and demanding to know:
“What do you as a man have to offer me? Why should I give you the highest compliment I can give a man – access to my body and my sexuality?”
@feeriker, deti
I can’t say I disagree with either of your replies, but I guess I had a more important point that I wanted to make but didn’t express very well. I’m not necessarily an exception to the rule, I just allowed myself to get to know a woman who may not have matched all of the criteria I initially set out to find. By limiting our options to only those people we think we are going to be a perfect match with, we may pass right by our most ideal partner. In the grand scheme of things while looking for someone to spend the rest of your life with, is a few years in age difference really all that important?
This goes for both men and women. I work with a woman who broke up with a long term boyfriend and got into online dating. At first she would only talk to guys who were over 6′ tall, severely limiting her options. After 4-5 horrible dates she finally decided to lower her height standard and met a guy who she’s crazy about and they have been dating for a few months now.
Physical traits aside, the other issue I wanted to address is the idea that all women want to have children. This is absolutely not true and it was this statement, “Your “no kid” gig is a shallow lie- the biological urge for children in women is insatiable.” that lead me to this comment page. There are quite a few childfree women and men who know that this statement is complete nonsense. Not all women have the innate desire to procreate and some will have themselves permanently sterilized in order to be completely sure they never do. The declining birth rate is evidence that more and more women are choosing not to have children. There is also a growing number of men who find this a desirable trait. A woman who truly does not want children should seek out a partner who feels the same way rather than aiming for someone 10-15 years older who already has children. They are probably not the guys that typically read this blog, but they are out there.
@CFMAN “There are quite a few childfree women and men who know that this statement is complete nonsense. ”
Sorry bro but I beg to differ. Look at the stats
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db21.htm
Here are some more recent interesting statistics from 2009.
Number of births by age
Here’s how the numbers played out among U.S. women in 2009.
-Ages 15 to 19: The number of births fell 6 percent.
-Ages 20 to 24: The number of births fell 3 percent.
-Ages 25 to 29: The number of births fell 2 percent.
-Ages 30 to 34: The number of births declined slightly.
-Ages 35 to 39: The number of births fell 3 percent.
-Ages 40 to 44: The number of births declined slightly.
-Age 45 and over: The number of births increased slightly.
If a woman sincerely says she doesnt want kids – guess what ?
She just doesn’t know it yet !!!!!
If you haven’t figured it out yet – there is double standard with women “They reserve the right to change their mind AT ANY TIME”.
Due to conditioning – IT NEVER ENTERS HER MIND THAT SHE has amended the contract.
Every SINGLE TIME I have seen a woman say “I dont want kids” it has been a flat out lie and in “my circle” even went as so far to has hubbies vasectomy reversed and then proceeded with artificial insemination. Fertility clinics are big $$$$$ private pay /elite insurance payment.
@ Michael Singer: I prefer women to have hips of some sort, and a butt of some sort. That goes for petite and curvy women alike. A girl with a figure like this: I I just isn’t interesting to the eyes, whether it’s 20″ from side to side or 36″ from side to side. Put a slender waist with either though, and it suddenly becomes a whole lot more appealing.
(20″ or 36″ around would have been better put… oh well, stream of consciousness typing gets me again.)
It would be interesting to look at the stats of women giving birth by age and in & out of wedlock.
Something else Wyse mentioned that didnt add up regarding location, so called “abuse” & financial situation.
– Lab in rural area = rare
– Paying journalist career in rural area = no work
– He left immediately after divorce
– She stayed in rural and making $$$
Last time I checked most disagreements are over work, money, etc..
Connect the dots and the situation of finances, so called “abuse” unfolds.
I wish her the best of luck finding a dude given “her situation”
@ They Call me Tom
I’m not that picky regarding the specific shape. While I prefer a athletic narrow hipped w/ a booty ( I limit myself to extreme athletic / discipline much like Dara Torres ). It really comes down to their mental /emotional/spiritual IQ – I cant handle “dumb or mean” no matter how attractive they are.
Discipline of body, mind, spirit is “flat out” attractive on any type of a womans physique at any age.
@CF
“Then I was contacted by a 37 year old divorced woman. She had many of the characteristics that Deti seems to find so unappealing. She has relatively short hair and it’s actually shorter now than it was when me met. She has tattoos and a few piercings over his arbitrary limit of 2 per ear. She wasn’t exactly my type and was actually much thinner than my ex-wife. Not all guys want a size 2 woman. She also lived almost 2 hours away from me when we met. There were so many things making me think that we would never get beyond a first date, but I went ahead with it anyway. Three years later we are married and it has been the most amazing three years of both of our lives.”
Thanks for posting. Such views coming from a man in the sphere are rather unusual, but nonetheless refreshing. Your post interested me on several counts. First, you mentioned that your wife is several years older than you, (which I don’t think there’s anything wrong with) but just curious if her age was/is ever an issue for you? And if so, what was it that made you overcome that and go on to date and marry her? Second, you mentioned that she contacted you first. Did that have any bearing on how you perceived her and the relationship? I sometimes hear that it’s fine for a woman to initiate, but others seem to insist that it should solely be role of the man. In regards to your comment about “the many things making [you] think that [you and your wife] would never get beyond a first date,but [you] went ahead with it anyway.” What was it that made you decide to proceed with pursuing the relationship in spite of these doubts?
@CFMAN
“Physical traits aside, the other issue I wanted to address is the idea that all women want to have children. This is absolutely not true and it was this statement, “Your “no kid” gig is a shallow lie- the biological urge for children in women is insatiable.” that lead me to this comment page. There are quite a few childfree women and men who know that this statement is complete nonsense. Not all women have the innate desire to procreate and some will have themselves permanently sterilized in order to be completely sure they never do.”
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but then the commentator, MichaelSinger posts;
“If a woman sincerely says she doesnt want kids – guess what ?
She just doesn’t know it yet !!!!!
If you haven’t figured it out yet – there is double standard with women “They reserve the right to change their mind AT ANY TIME”.
Due to conditioning – IT NEVER ENTERS HER MIND THAT SHE has amended the contract.
Every SINGLE TIME I have seen a woman say “I dont want kids” it has been a flat out lie and in “my circle” even went as so far to has hubbies vasectomy reversed and then proceeded with artificial insemination. Fertility clinics are big $$$$$ private pay /elite insurance payment.”
Although I’m not sure I agree with his stance that “Every SINGLE TIME [he has] seen a woman say “I dont want kids” it has been a flat out lie,”
I think he makes some valid points about something that could conceivably (no pun intended) be a possibility, that being a woman who might just change her mind about having children after initially deciding that she didn’t want them. So for yourself, as part of a voluntarily child-free couple, would you say this is a common occurrence in child-free circles? Or would you say that those (particularly women) who have chosen to forgo children of their own have generally done so with resolve?
@ CF Man
31 years old..
Marrying a 37 year old with tattoos..
You must be quite the catch to scoop up a women most men your age would rather pass on if they could help it.
@CF Man
‘Not all guys want a size 2 woman” That is true.
Not all guys want a size 8-12 either – That is true also,
I would venture to guess that 99.98% of all women look their best “slender” vs. “Plump”.
In regards to “I dont want kids”. I give this one more try since I really think you missed it.
When a woman says “I dont want kids” – it means one of two things:
– She is physically unable to conceive and rather than admit the physical defect and “save face” she will say “I dont want kids”.
OR
– She is lying to you or to herself and reserves the right to change her mind and you have no say in the matter despite all previous oral and even written agreements. Stupid male, dont you know that a woman has a right to change her mind at any time while you do not. GET IT ?
If you seriously doubt this – the media has been vomiting artificial insemination/single parent by choice for single career women who can afford it while screaming at the top of their lungs “where are all the good men at?”
Btw, best of luck with your gal. May you both find what you are looking for.
@CF
“Then I was contacted by a 37 year old divorced woman. She had many of the characteristics that Deti seems to find so unappealing. She has relatively short hair and it’s actually shorter now than it was when me met. She has tattoos and a few piercings over his arbitrary limit of 2 per ear”
Uh uh uh there. First, the “arbitrary” limit on piercings (one per ear, in normal location, and NO MORE anywhere else, ever, including in the past) is a good way to screen out the impulsive-in-a-bad-way (think short time horizons), so it is very useful as a fast way to tell which women are most probably NOT ever going to be marriage material for degreed, productive (read: generally employed at non-bovine poop jobs) men. Tattoos? Even more useful as common women detectors. Figure that each one that a woman has that is visible when wearing tank top and shorts = the slut-past equivalent of one gang bang that she doesn’t regret. Each tattoo that is not so visible? That’s the equivalent of one gang bang that she does regret (but still engaged in voluntarily at the time). Oh, and tats that she’s gotten professionally removed? I’d count the visible-location ones as half a GB, and non-normally-visible locales as 1/4th.
Classic picture on the subject of women riding the cock carousel in their 20s —-> crappy romantic/reproductive life the next 50 years:
CF Man caught a woman at the right time. 37 divorced chick most likely know she was at the end of the line and made an effort to be something CF man found attractive. So wyst make yourself pleasant to be around first and foremost and close the check list book.
A certain amount of NAWALT going on here today I see. One cannot argue with happiness or the ease of familiarity.
The Prince of Wales married a nineteen year old virgin and look how that turned out! – but as a general rule there are a number of characteristics which are likely to be impediments to a lasting marriage, and when a woman claims that she never wants children it is probably best to assume that she is just not that into you.
@CF
“Three years later we are married and it has been the most amazing three years of both of our lives.”
Too early to make any statement of any sort…
Let me guess… weren’t the first three years of your previous, unsuccessful marriage also “amazing”?
Give the woman some time, and she’ll show her hand…
It’s funny how, every time I read those comments of the like “I am the exception to the rule” then it turns out they are not exceptions. They are just on the path of very probably follow the rule… They don’t realize it because of the honeymoon phase of the first years of marriage…
“I am the exception to the rule! I married the slut 6 months ago and it’s been wonderful since then! I am the luckiest man alive!”
LOL
@Michael
There is plenty of data to back up my statements.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/06/25/childlessness-up-among-all-women-down-among-women-with-advanced-degrees/
“Nearly one-in-five American women ends her childbearing years without having borne a child, compared with one-in-ten in the 1970s. While childlessness has risen for all racial and ethnic groups, and most education levels, it has fallen over the past decade for women with advanced degrees.”
A study done in the UK had similar findings.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2289923/Portrait-21st-century-British-woman-One-childless-age-45-fewer-half-married.html
Besides these articles, I read and participate in childfree communities. There are lots of women who have lead happy lives without children and many older women who have no regrets and have never changed their minds. You are telling yourself and everyone here lies about what you think women want when you really have no idea. Your own anecdotal evidence may say one thing, but you just aren’t meeting the right people. Of the women you know that say they don’t want kids, how many of them put serious thought and consideration into that statement? There is a huge difference between someone who jokingly saying “I don’t want kids” while faced with a misbehaving child, and the woman who knows deep down that she never has and never will want children.
@Perspective
The only time age was ever an issue was the first time I saw how old she was. She was outside of the range I was looking for and almost passed her by for that reason alone. Other than that, age has not been a factor at all. I needed to get back into the dating scene and there were many other attributes I found very attractive in her. Our first phone call lasted over 3 hours without a single moment of awkward silence, so why would I not at least go on a date with her and see if we were as compatible in person?
She initiated contact by sending me a “wink”. I then initiated the first actual conversation. Given her rural location outside of my search radius, we would have never met if she had not found me first. I went into the date with the intention of taking things very slow and continuing to date other women until I found the right person for me, but things we her just worked right from the start. I can’t explain how or why and I don’t want to sound like I’m writing some BS fairy tale, but this is just how it played out.
@Michael
“You must be quite the catch to scoop up a women most men your age would rather pass on if they could help it.”
I know in the anonymous world of the internet everyone can claim whatever they want, but I have no reason to lie when I say that I am actually quite the catch. A very attractive, athletic, well educated guy with a great job. When I got divorced I heard quite a few rumors that news was spreading fast that “HE is single now!!!”
You also know nothing about my wife and despite her age which so many people here seem to think is approaching old hag territory, there are many guys my age who wouldn’t pass her up.
@robinbreak
You make too many assumptions. No, the first three years of my previous, unsuccessful marriage were not amazing. My previous marriage was VERY different than my current relationship for many reasons. I have lost count of the number of family and friends who have told me how much happier I am now than I have ever been in the past.
I’m not sure what rule you think I’m claiming to be an exception to. I met a great woman who happens to be a bit older than me and we have a great relationship. I can’t predict the future, but the whole “give the woman some time and she’ll show her hand” bit sounds like a terrible mindset to be in.
Finally @Luke
Thanks for the laughable tattoo/piercing analysis. I have spent a great deal of time researching and writing about tattoos and how people with tattoos are perceived and this is a new one to me. Do you have a similar rating system for guys with tattoos?
I did a quick search through the older comments on this page and wasn’t surprised to find that it’s a fairly common theme to dismiss women with tattoos for various reasons. I personally love tattoos and didn’t get my first until I was in my 30’s. Nobody that knew me before my tattoos would have ever expected me to go out and get one because I’m just not “that type of guy”. People who meet me when my tattoos are covered are always shocked when they first see them, because again I’m just not the type. But that is exactly the problem with making this type of assumption. I am the type of guy who gets tattoos, an so is your doctor, teacher, lawyer, and yes the stereotypical biker, gang member and convict. Every class of people now have tattoos and the presence of tattoos can no longer be used as an accurate indicator for anything about a person. What may have been true about people with tattoos years ago just doesn’t have any relevance today now that nearly 20% of the population is tattooed.
Wow watching someone at the beginning of their red pill journey is awesome.
Give him time…
He already has an history of making bad decisions regarding relationships and marriage.
This is just an other one, he just hasn’t realized it yet.
Come back in 5-10 years, great-catch CF Man.
We’ll welcome you.
“No, the first three years of my previous, unsuccessful marriage were not amazing.”
I would have LOVED to ask you the same question back then for the records. Your answer would have been VERY VERY different from this one…
Finally, first marriage divorce rate: 46%
Second marriage divorce rate: 67%
Good luck
@robinbreak
Again with the assumptions. You really know nothing of my past relationships.
The history of bad decisions you speak of consists of marrying a lifelong friend, a woman who I had know literally my entire life and dated for years. I would not have answered that my marriage was amazing back then because my ex’s mother died shortly before we were married. She was an only child and extremely close with her mother. This changed her and changed the course of our marriage right from the start. We stayed together a few years longer and mutually decided to separate.
We are still good friends to this day, just very different people than we were when we were married. I do not consider my previous marriage to be a bad decision.
It is thought that the higher divorce rate in 2nd marriages is due to people staying together “for the sake of the children” in their first marriage. All that statistic says to me is that there are a lot more unhappy first marriages out there than subsequent marriages.
I don’t wish to pile on CFMan’s misery – he’s happily married – but, he does come across as a very easy going fellow. After the end of his marriage he ‘found himself’ at a dating site – as if that happened irrespective of his own volition. He is 6 foot attractive and had many offers yet ends up with a woman six years older – i.e. on rapid collision course with the wall – and with as we would say around here a number of red flags – such as the Tats and the Piercings and a Butch Lesbian Hair-cut, none of which would surely be on his list of desired features to be sought in a partner. Further: she approached him rather than he taking the initiative. He does not want a family so it rather looks as if he has acquired a substitute mother – someone to boss him around.
I wonder what the CF represents and what motivated him to materialise (like a Tardis) at Dalrock?
Opus
CF represents childfree. I chose that name because I was directed here from a childfree website where the members were laughing at the comments about all women wanting children and sharing stories of how that statement is blatantly false for so many people.
You need to read my post more carefully or brush up on your reading comprehension because I never claimed that I accidentally found myself on a dating site. I said that found myself searching for a partner. Joining a dating site was just a logical next step for me. You are also painting a picture of my wife that doesn’t even come close to representing what she really looks like. Another thing you missed is the fact that she simply showed interest in me and I took the initiative to make the first real contact.
The substitute mother things is the most hilarious part of your response and just further proof that you really do know absolutely nothing about me, my wife or our relationship. I really did not expect to get this much entertainment value out of posting on this site. The idea that my wife is acting as a substitute mother had me almost rolling on the floor in laughter. That might be what the guys here are looking for in a partner, but it could not be further from the truth for me.
Is it so hard to accept the idea that people can find happiness in someone who doesn’t fit your list of ideals? For the guys who do find women well before they hit “the wall”, do you plan on using a time machine to keep her young forever? I really just don’t understand this obsession. My wife is extremely attractive, in great shape and doesn’t look anywhere near her age, which is why putting so much emphasis on a number seems so crazy to me. I chose to be with her because of who she is, not how old.
Continue with your assumptions about me and speculation of my future and I will continue enjoying the life that I have chosen for myself with a wonderful woman.
Stories like CF man are great for generating hysteria. he hooked up with and is “happy” with what on the surface is a used up skank. (37 years is to long to not be a used) She may have her head on straight for any woman can be loved by a man and the man happy with her. Well these times are a time of change. This one maybe one on the margins. Meaning she has the ability to see the writing on the wall and made the choice to be pleasant and submit and be “happy”. The hysteria will come from women seeing this story and thinking there is still hope for them doing what they know . Being modern empowered bitches in rebellion. The only “women” I tell the key to are under 12 types, the rest get the feminist you go girl empowerment. Get a good education ,date and don’t get tied down and keep your independence, be true to yourself, all of that. I want the laws changed so all of you women here seeing CF Mans story say “hell yeah” and stay true to your standards and get that man you want and he’ll be glad to have you. “how’s that female suicide rate coming along?”
@CF “For the guys who do find women well before they hit “the wall”, do you plan on using a time machine to keep her young forever? I really just don’t understand this obsession.”
In my opinion I think what people are trying to say is that within a decade being with her, you will be bored with her. You will wake up one morning and look @ your wife and wonder: “Who is this old lady with sagging skin?”. And yet you will find younger women still pursing you since you will still be ‘attractive’ to women in your 40’s. Even Ashton Kutcher divorsed Demi Moore before she reached 50…and ‘they were in love’.
Facial physical attributes of women change quite a bit in women in their 40’s, unless you want to expense some cosmetic surgery on them…But then again, it did not work very long for Demi.
@CF Man
Children born out of wedlock is a all time high and increasing – this cannot be denied
Abortion rate is decreasing – this cannot be denied.
The result is more babies 🙂
Btw, on a personal note from a guy who dated single “career women” in their 40’s (ie masters to phd). The single ones wanted kids and the divorced ones had kids well into mid 40’s.).Overly educated women have set the bar so high and as a result are very unattractive, unfeminine, and illogical. They simply argue over insignificant points.
I know quite a few attractive career spinsters for 10+ years who had change to change their goals from wanting marriage/family to hopefully finding “a decent guy” to marry. Interestingly enough, they are all single to this day.
Sorry bro, I dont suggest using UK stats – they have polices in place that makes it very difficult for men & families. How about using US Government for US population ?
Sound fair ?
Here are some US Government statistics for women.
http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/cb12-ff08.html
CF man
The comments here are based on the reality of family men in todays world. You have lived a life “Child Free” so have by default as a blue pill man lived a good life. You have a lot to offer on the approach you have taken with your life for young men to avoid misandry and live well. Rather than cheer for your girl discuss the day to day mechanics you lived by to remain child free and finding the same type of women. You also mention you have a blog or forum with like minded men. You all would be a great bunch of fellas to bring the red pill to and add to the MRM
@CF “It is thought that the higher divorce rate in 2nd marriages is due to people staying together “for the sake of the children” in their first marriage”
Sorry bro, this doesn’t make sense at all since the divorce rate for 1st marriages is through the roof.
Havent you heard of the definition of insanity ? ie Repeating the same mistake and expecting a different outcome ?
Allow me to suggest that it is incorrect – the definition of stupidity is repeating the same mistake and expecting a different outcome.
Maybe it is just because I am from flyover country in the US, but…
On the childless women bit, I have met only two childless woman in my entire life who was childless by explicit choice. One of them is a high powered litigator married to a now retired state police investigator. The other is my cousin, an attractive blonde now 42 years old, twice divorced, who had elective tubal ligation. Because of her parents’ divorce, though, and her, well, let’s just say, COLORFUL past sexual history, she is so screwed up that her decision to remain childless is probably a blessing for all involved.
As for the rest of the childless women I know… They give the phrase “weeping and gnashing of teeth” new meaning. It is a horrible, deep and everlasting pain that lives just beneath the surface. I have one good friend who can barely stand to talk about it without it sending her into paroxysms of bitterness and grief. She is simply unable to discuss it, because it still hurts so badly after 18 years of her unhappy marriage. (She and her husband never discussed kids; it was only after she married that she discovered she never ovulated and her husband didn’t want kids because of a family history of hereditary diseases.)
Gen 30:1 ~When Rachel saw that she bore Jacob no children, she envied her sister. She said to Jacob, “Give me children, or I shall die!” ( I know the bible is true based on this single verse 🙂
A number of women have are self inflicted medical casualties. By engaging in sex & contraceptives (the pill) from a very young age. They are simply infertile or have extreme difficulty conceiving.
From my understanding the pill increase the risk of polycystic ovary syndrome and raises testosterone which makes for extremely difficult conception. Btw, here are some interesting side effects ” irregular ovulation, insulin resistance, excessive hairiness on the face, back and thighs, increased acne and fat accumulation around the waist” (btw, my ex-wife started the pill at a very young age and had exhibited many of these symptoms and then later to found out she had PCOS). So much for hindsight…
@CF
“It is thought that the higher divorce rate in 2nd marriages is due to people staying together “for the sake of the children” in their first marriage. All that statistic says to me is that there are a lot more unhappy first marriages out there than subsequent marriages.”
It is thought by whom??
By people that try to stretch every piece of information to prove their situation is the best possible, even if the data clearly point the other way?
This is called “confirmation bias”.
Deti
Big picture wise you are right that is another reason this “marriage Strike ” thing is so effective at getting people to step back and notice when 50 years of talk and stats on the destruction of America meant absolutely nothing. A male birth control pill would be so much fun. I would start watching TV again. Just think carousel riders trying to get knocked up towards the end of the ride with the players on birth control. Or the savvy ones trying to get the well paid “beta” on the CS hook and his blue pill ass is responsibly using birth control because he cares about women’s health. She either ages out or “cheats” and the chump knows it isn’t his. This is a great time to be alive and participate in changing history.
@CF Man
You make my point for me, again. You repeated that you ‘found yourself’ – as if it was something that merely happened to you and without the activation of your will. Yes, you asked her out, but only after she had first approached you. I am sorry, however, that my picture of your wife bears little resemblance to the reality but you must understand that I merely relied upon what you had written. Obviously I am mistaken and far from being a Mother figure she is the perfect loving wife – lucky you. You married your wife (who looks younger than her age, is in great shape, and is extremely attractive) for the person that she is – so please tell us more about that, because so far all we know are her, from out point of view, less than desirable physical traits – I mean the Tats, Piercings and the Crew-cut. We know she is without issue and has no desire for a family, although we have no idea about Her N number [how many guys she has shagged before you] Abortions or STDs. We like to know about those things here too because we think that past behaviour is the best and only guide to future conduct. Are you certain that her views on remaining without children will not change? Are you certain that your resolve in that regard will remain unchanged? What do you see as the purpose of marriage if it is to be childless? After all you have committed yourself to provide for her for the rest of your days even though you could easily have attracted any number of women a decade younger than yourself – you were not without options, so why settle. Companionship is estimable, but male desire is fickle. We fear that in ten years, when you are, say, 44, your wife, by then, a saggy menopausal 51, and your looks and height still attractive to women in their twenties, that you may be motivated to stray, which without the motivation a family might bring to stiffen your resolve – for what could possibly be stopping you – will lead you to do just that, which would of course be quite unfair on your wife, and she – frankly then past her sell-by-date – will be left unhappy and unable to do much about it, other than to divorce.
@robin
I understand what confirmation bias is, but I was simply repeating information found in the first article I came across when searching for divorce rates in 2nd marriages.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-intelligent-divorce/201202/the-high-failure-rate-second-and-third-marriages
“However, I believe that the prime factor affecting the breakup of second and third marriages is that there is less glue holding the marriage together: children, family. Parent-child relationships can be a source of conflict in some marriages, but overall children act as a stabilizing factor in marriages and when children are absent the marriage is prone to be rocked by minor storms.
Because the great majority of children born to married couples are born during their first marriage, when the parents are up to about thirty five years old, most couples in a second marriage do not have common children to bind them together. Conversely, not having shared responsibility for kids means it’s easier to leave when you are going through a rough patch. Perhaps ‘for the sake of the kids’ is not reason enough the stay together, though it can sometimes save a relationship.”
@mikesinger
You are all over the place with your posts. I’m not sure what your information about birth control pills, abortion rates or babies being born out of wedlock have to do with anything being discussed here. I am talking about people who choose to not have children and the data in my first link, which is from the US, shows a steady decline in the number of women having children. The bible verses also don’t mean much to me as I’m an atheist.
@deti
Again you are using the limited sampling of people you know to make generalizations about women. One thing I need to point out is the difference between childfree and childless. Childfree women, those who made the choice to not have children, do not like being referred to as childless because it implies that something is missing from their lives. There are many women who desire children but cannot have them for any number of reasons. Those women are not childfree.
This may be partially due to your location in the country, but I suspect it is more due to the fact that people have a tendency to surround themselves with like minded individuals. Someone with children is much more likely to associate with other couples with children. People who choose to remain childfree will seek out other people with the same lifestyle. We are in the minority, but that doesn’t mean we don’t exist, you just have to know where to look.
Opus
You are looking way too deep into my choice to use the word ‘found’. I promise it really doesn’t mean anything.
My choice of partners doesn’t even come close to fitting in with the ideal that the guys on this site are looking for. I know a lot about her past and I’m sure it wouldn’t hold up to your scrutiny. You hear about a few traits that you find less than desirable and automatically assume the worst which is why your image of her is so skewed based on the limited information I have provided. But I’m not going to sit here all day and justify my reasons for being with her. Our relationship is perfect as far as I am concerned and that is all that matters to me at this point. I did not settle for her, I chose to be with her and would do it all over again.
The subject of marriage without children is a whole different discussion and I don’t have the time nor the desire to get into that here. Only time will tell if your grim and frighteningly detailed projection of my future infidelities will hold true, but I’m betting that you are wrong just like you have been about just about everything else you have assumed so far.
My views on women and relationships are shockingly different than those held by most of the men on this site and I see no point in trying to defend my stance to this crowd. I have explained all that I care to and shared my story for those who are interested in an alternate perspective on things.
@ CFMan
What is an athiest, childfree, happily married man doing on this blog?
If you are here for shits & giggles, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Generalizations have a place in this forum, and are valid in representing 90% of the populace.
Maybe you don’t fit those generalizations.
If you believe in what you are preaching, then head back from whence you came.
It’s the five stages of grief. He knows something is wrong but he doesn’t know what. He is in denial. Let him work his grief.
@ CF Man
“I know in the anonymous world of the internet everyone can claim whatever they want, but I have no reason to lie when I say that I am actually quite the catch. A very attractive, athletic, well educated guy with a great job. When I got divorced I heard quite a few rumors that news was spreading fast that “HE is single now!!!””
-If this is true why did you resign yourself to a divorced 37 year old women with tattoos? You were 31 years old. You were in your peak market value. If you are good looking and successful why not pursue within your own level?
“You also know nothing about my wife and despite her age which so many people here seem to think is approaching old hag territory, there are many guys my age who wouldn’t pass her up.”
She has passed her expiration date. She is divorced. She is tattooed. And in a certain manner of speaking she is a stranger because you have no history with her. Yes. A stranger. From ages 18-37 she was a STRANGER.
And by marrying her (with your qualifications) you serve as an example of why young women circa 2013 in the peak of their youth, value and fertility can continue to bang around lily padding from one cock to the next with ZERO future repercussions/consequences because YOU will always be there in the end.
@ CF Man
“I know a lot about her past”
You only know what she tells you.
@C F Man
You must forgive me for looking so close into the use of the word ‘found’ for I now see you also used it in your first post where you explained that your wife ‘found’ you. You are surely very desirable but hardly demonstrating testosterone-driven desire for a woman. I have also been reading your other comments and see that your first wife and you came together having been in LJBF (friend) territory for a long while. This also, if I may say so, looks very passive. As you explain, her mother died about the time of the wedding and her personality changed. Most would regard that marriage as a failure and something to be regretted and perhaps lessons learned but that does not seem to be your view as you do not regard marrying her as a bad decision. You and your first wife remain friends and seemingly this is not a problem for your second wife. As you explain, you needed to get back into the dating scene, and yet it also appears that you married the first person you dated, and not withstanding your good looks etc joined a dating agency. I have always perceived dating agencies to be the bargain basement store of romance, but perhaps I am just too old fashioned. You sport some Tats. I have to confess that I have never quite grasped the point of land-based men so indelibly marking themselves. I have one friend with a (small) Tat and which he is deeply embarrassed by (its his name) and he puts it down to youthful impetuousness and a desire to appear masculine – but that of course can not be the case with yourself as your Tat is a recent acquisition and you are sufficiently mature not to be so insecure as to your person.
I, like you, am not much of a religious person myself but I must say, I thought Michael Singer’s quote from Genesis well chosen, and stressed a very obvious point – namely that women want children – could the Hebrews have been so mistaken? I think not for if I had been given £5.00 for every time I had heard a woman say (after having sworn she never would ) that having a family was the best thing she ever did I would be a wealthy man. Some die childless but that is rarely through deliberate choice. It frequently goes with the territory – creative people, for example seem to die childless. The exceptions – the J.S.Bach’s of this world merely prove the rule. As our good friend TFH always says women are not very good at grasping cause and effect and only realise later what they are missing – women, perhaps like men, only know they want children when they actually have them. Of course you could be correct and childless couples will become the way of the future, although frankly that merely seems like the sect of the Shakers writ on a larger and secular scale and with more sex (swinging? – why not) than praying. To wilfully collaborate in what – if all follow your way – must result in the deliberate death of our species is surely nothing other than self-inflicted genocide. If you protest that that is not what your group desires I must refer you back to the quoted article which you seem to view with some glee, to demonstrate that you are the future and we on the wrong side of history. I cannot think of any animal that has any instinct to do other than (survive) and reproduce and thus I find it hard to grasp that in the last twenty or so years Human Nature has so radically changed that the desire to reproduce (that is to say to have sex) has changed. It’s your choice but a person whose response to children is as negative as yours is does seem to me to be lacking something essentially human – as if one would refuse to laugh or smile.
Why by the way is may GayDar faintly pinging.
Opus, Casey, mikesinger, Michael, greyghost, deti and others (forgive me if I left anyone out):
I’d say this is the one place where true equality exists. You guys critiqued CF Man with the same vigor as the women who have posted (Liz, Perspective, Content, even me). You all minced no words.
So this male birth control business: would men be on it from a young age? Would it be some extra dose of hormones that inhibit sperm production? A given man on this pill (if it even is a pill) could stop taking it when he marries and he and his spouse wish to have children? If you haven’t thought it out this far I understand, just trying to see how it would be different from current birth control options available to women.
@ Opus,
“I have always perceived dating agencies to be the bargain basement store of romance,”
There are. For WOMEN. Not for romance, but sex with men far outside their ratings. A five can post a dating profile and will have 30-50+ emails in her box the same day – from guys out of her league. All looking to get laid under the pretense of a relationship (giving her just the excuse she needs). For men this is IMPOSSIBLE.
Online dating is an artificial market for women. The laws of supply and demand are skewed to women. As a result guys like CF man who go online – do not command their fair market value.
@ Michael
Re: Online dating………….EXACTLY RIGHT.
The whole damn thing is skewed towards women getting copious amounts of attention from men out of their league. It’s a suck & fuck fest for the ALPHAS.
I once tried an introduction service where I paid DAMN good money……….only to find that these organizations are placating to women as well. I can’t tell you the number of times my ‘criteria’ was breached in the selection ‘process.
Opus
The gaydar comment was great. I really am starting to feel like this is all one big joke being pulled on me. Maybe the gaydar is pinging because of the circle jerk all the guys here are participating in.
You are wildly misinterpreting almost everything I post and I don’t understand your obsession with my use of the word found. In the context you are referring to, I used it because we were on a website with a search engine. When you search for something and get results, how else would you describe these results? I searched and then I _____ what I was looking for. Fill in the blank.
My reason for posting the link showing the decline in birth rates was just to give evidence to back up my statements about more women not wanting children. I’m not trying to claim that one position is right or wrong, but it is a choice that individuals need to make. I don’t think that the future will lead to all people refusing to have children. There are more than enough people having children out there and a small percentage of us deciding against it will not lead to the extinction of our species.
I also never claimed that human nature has changed drastically over the last few decades, I do not associate the lack of desire for children with the lack of desire for sex and never said anything negative about children in any of my posts. Many CF people like children, we just don’t want our own. Not desiring children of my own was a personal choice and bears no reflection on my thoughts about other people wanting children.
I don’t understand how you can continue to deny the fact that not all women want children. I don’t care how many ancient people wrote about it and how many of your friends and family members have and want children.
Everyone also keeps asking why I settled or resigned myself to a woman who doesn’t meet YOUR standards. The answer is that I didn’t settle for anything, I FOUND exactly what I was looking for. I also know quite a few people who used online dating to start serious relationships. I also know a few women who absolutely hate the fact that there inboxes constantly fill with guys just trying to get laid. Online dating sites are what you make of them.
It seems like many people here have been burned badly by past relationships, failed marriages, bad online dating experiences, etc… and just can’t accept the idea that not everyone will share those same negative experiences.
It is very obvious that I have different ideals than everyone else here and don’t fit in here at all. I came here to refute one comment about women’s desire to have children and had to stay to defend myself against the assumptions being made towards me. I see no need to continue this debate because it is going nowhere. If I remember in 10 years from now I’ll stop back here and let everyone know how things are going for me. I’m sure I’ll be on my 4th or 5th wife by then.
@ CF Man
“Everyone also keeps asking why I settled or resigned myself to a woman who doesn’t meet YOUR standards. The answer is that I didn’t settle for anything, I FOUND exactly what I was looking for.”
– You went online looking for a 37 year old divorced women with tattoos?
Did you include that in your dating profile?
“I also know a few women who absolutely hate the fact that there inboxes constantly fill with guys just trying to get laid. Online dating sites are what you make of them.”
-Women also hate getting hit on by guys in bars. Is that why they always go there? Right. If you think women hate getting an ego boost from a full inbox – you are even more lost as a man than you appear to be. But look on the bright side. At least your not as bad as this guy:
http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/girlfriend-weighs-more-170300690.html
I don’t understand why Gloria wants to lose weight.
She should get fatter!
CFMan,
I’m happy you are happy with your choice, really.
I, as a Christian, hope nothing but peace, health, happiness and fulfillment for both of you.
What most bloggers here are driving at, and I agree with, is the numbers/odds of success.
Lets face facts, 50% of ALL marriages fail, this is under the best of circumstances…first time around, etc.
When you toss into the mix factors like:
May-December (almost 100% failure rate),
Tattoos
childlessness
2nd go around
female initiation
on-line meet
well, lets just say, you are quite the gambler.
If you are the catch you intimate you are, the future will be a rapidly aging wife and a rapidly increased market value for yourself. This simply does not bode well for success (staying together).
@ Michael….
The story quotes her boyfriend as saying “Gloria has thick skin”.
NO KIDDING!
So does a whale.
CF Man says:
July 19, 2013 at 8:02 am
Finally @Luke
“Thanks for the laughable tattoo/piercing analysis. I have spent a great deal of time researching and writing about tattoos and how people with tattoos are perceived and this is a new one to me. Do you have a similar rating system for guys with tattoos?
I did a quick search through the older comments on this page and wasn’t surprised to find that it’s a fairly common theme to dismiss women with tattoos for various reasons. I personally love tattoos and didn’t get my first until I was in my 30′s. Nobody that knew me before my tattoos would have ever expected me to go out and get one because I’m just not “that type of guy”. People who meet me when my tattoos are covered are always shocked when they first see them, because again I’m just not the type. But that is exactly the problem with making this type of assumption. I am the type of guy who gets tattoos, an so is your doctor, teacher, lawyer, and yes the stereotypical biker, gang member and convict. Every class of people now have tattoos and the presence of tattoos can no longer be used as an accurate indicator for anything about a person. What may have been true about people with tattoos years ago just doesn’t have any relevance today now that nearly 20% of the population is tattooed.”
Just keep lying to yourself, if that keeps you from weeping every time you take a shower in a bathroom that has a mirror. Being that I’m an M.S. level scientist, I know numerous people with serious careers requiring STEM degrees, often grad ones. The ONLY one with a tattoo is a never-married careerist woman (fire captain, to be precise) — and she regrets her choice to disfigure herself decades ago. Tattoos are in general a maximum level of social class indicator. More specifically, they tend to mean someone is morally dissolute and/or either does not have a college degree or does not identify with that level intellectually, and wishes to broadcast this. (Think of broads with a 3-digit “N” who get a tongue piercing; same deal.) So, do you work on oil rigs, drive an 18-wheeler, sweep the floor in a car paint & body shop, cover the weekend shift running the counter at a head shop, peon on the loading dock at a warehouse, or what? God knows I wouldn’t hire a man with visible tattoos for anything that involved either client contact or required a specific college degree. (There’s no need to, as the better candidates almost always are untattooed.)
I do know that proper, professional tattoo removal commonly takes something like 10-20x the cost that acquiring it from the neighborhood former biker/drug dealer whose Hep B is in remission (he says), especially if the disfigurement is colored, rather than the easier-to-treat black types. Here is an alternative option for you, if you’re broke: http://tinyurl.com/plgysvm .
Of course, no amount of money will upgrade anyone at tattoo-level to a better sort. That has to come from within…
@ CF Man
“I am the type of guy who gets tattoos, an so is your doctor, teacher, lawyer, and yes the stereotypical biker, gang member and convict. Every class of people now have tattoos and the presence of tattoos can no longer be used as an accurate indicator for anything about a person.”
-There are 350 million people in this country. And 7 billion on this planet. Of course you will fine ONE tattoo for every class of person. There are just too many people in the world, period. However your not talking about percentages in each class. Tattoos are an “indicator”. Isn’t that the most reason people get tattoos? To send a message about themselves? If so – aren’t tattoos a form of behavior? Yet I am being told not to judge people according to their own behavior?
“What may have been true about people with tattoos years ago just doesn’t have any relevance today now that nearly 20% of the population is tattooed.”
-Then according to you 80% of the population is NOT tattooed. I would love to see how the remaining 20% statistically breaks down age, education, income, drug use, criminal history, and sexual partner counts. If and when such a study were conducted I would bet every dollar in my Scottrade account the findings would support many of not most “preconceptions” about tattoos.
Tattoos are trashy on both men & women. The Generation Y group has taken to tattoos like a duck takes to water.
This presumably comes from some failed notion that this somehow tell the world ‘they are special’ by ‘personalizing’ themselves in this way.
I draw conclusions about everyone I see with a tattoo. I.E. they can’t fucking think for themselves.
It looks pedestrian, and I dare say among younger cohorts it is more rare and unique to NOT have a tattoo.
A tattoo makes both males/females look as if they should be receiving/giving a $2 blowjob in an alleyway.
@The story quotes her boyfriend as saying “Gloria has thick skin”.
NO KIDDING!
So does a whale”
THAT IS HILARIOUS !!!
I recall a comment by a drop dead beautiful woman that I dated for a while and someone asked her why she didnt have a tattoo since it would look great on her physique.
Her reply was classic ” that would be like putting a bumper sticker on a Austin Martin”.
“I draw conclusions about everyone I see with a tattoo. I.E. they can’t fucking think for themselves.” I too tend to prejudge most people with tattoos as sheep. Then again, I’ve a few unique scars with unique stories… maybe I’d lean on tattoos as a crutch for ice breaking if I wasn’t so fortunate. Ha ha.
“Data gathered from a convenience sample of 450 college students indicated that tattooed respondents were substantively and significantly more likely to be sexually active than nontattooed college students.”
Koch, Jerome R., et al. “College Students, Tattoos, And Sexual Activity 1.” Psychological Reports 97.3 (2005): 887-890.
“Participants with tattoos and/or body piercings were more likely to have engaged in risk-taking behaviors and at greater degrees of involvement than those without either. These included disordered eating behavior, gateway drug use, hard drug use, sexual activity, and suicide. Violence was associated with males having tattoos and with females having body piercings. Gateway drug use was associated with younger age of both tattooing and body piercing. Hard drug use was associated with number of body piercings. Suicide was associated with females having tattoos and younger age of both tattooing and body piercing. Tattoos and body piercings were found to be more common in females than males.”
Carroll, Sean T., et al. “Tattoos and body piercings as indicators of adolescent risk-taking behaviors.” Pediatrics 109.6 (2002): 1021-1027.
“Women with tattoos were more likely to be younger, to drink more alcohol, to have more psychiatric symptoms and to show borderline personality features than were the non tattooed women. They were also more likely to report child sexual abuse (CSA).”
Romans, S. E., et al. “Tattoos, childhood sexual abuse and adult psychiatric disorder in women.” Archives of Women’s Mental Health 1.3 (1998): 137-141.
“Clearly, the strongest association between tattoo and diagnosis is found in the personality disorders, particularly antisocial personality disorder. (1,2,6,7,11-13) In DSM-III-R, antisocial personality is grouped in cluster B of the personality disorders. Patients with disorders in cluster B are described as dramatic, emotional and erratic, as demonstrated by histories of civil arrest, divorce and chaotic lifestyle. (16) The patient in case 1 has a classic history for antisocial personality disorder, and the subject’s tattoos are typical of that diagnosis. Characteristics of persons with this disorder that may predispose them to tattooing are failure to plan ahead, impulsiveness and recklessness about their own safety. Antisocial personality, like tattooing, is often seen in several generations of a family. Self-abuse and low self-esteem are common in this disorder.
Borderline personality disorder also belongs in cluster B of the personality disorders, and the patient in case 2 is representative of this diagnosis. Persons with borderline personality., like those with antisocial personality, tend to be impulsive, to show lack of control and to engage, often repeatedly, in self-mutilating behaviors. (16) These are common behaviors in tattooed individuals. Tattooing may serve to bolster the defective ego and the unstable self-image that are major components of borderline personality disorder.
After antisocial personality, alcohol abuse and psychoactive substance abuse show the strongest association with tattoos, as reported in the literature. (8,11,13,17) Individuals with these disorders may be trying to fulfill needs engendered by their damaged egos. When intoxicated, they display impulsivity and lack of control. Drug addicts may actually use their tattoos to facilitate contact with drug suppliers while avoiding police detection. (11) Addicts commonly use tattoos to specify their drug of preference, displaying the letter H for heroin or M for marijuana, or the numeral 13 for morphine. (18) (M is the 13th letter of the alphabet.)”
Raspa, Robert F., and John Cusack. “Psychiatric implications of tattoos.” Am Fam Physician 41.5 (1990): 1481-6.
“Adults with BMs have had their first intercourse statistically earlier and were more sexually active compared with controls. There were no statically significant differences in sexual orientation, sexual preferences, engaging in risky sexual behaviors, frequency of masturbation, and history of sexual abuse between the groups. In contrast, the frequency of sexual intercourses was statistically higher and oral sex was more likely to be a dominant sexual activity in adults with BM compared with controls. The multivariate logistic model revealed that adults with BM were four times less likely to participate in religious practices and twice more likely to have early sexual initiation.”
Nowosielski, Krzysztof, et al. “Tattoos, piercing, and sexual behaviors in young adults.” Journal of Sexual Medicine 9.9 (2012): 2307-2314.
“Women who were pierced, compared with those without piercings, were more likely to have personality traits of low constraint or high negative emotionality. Women with piercings were also more likely to report having had, during the previous year, five or more heterosexual partners (odds ratio, 5.8, 95% CI: 2.3-14.6) or any same-sex partner involving genital contact (odds ratio, 10.3, CI: 2.9-37.2). The associations with sexual behavior in men were weaker and not statistically significant. In this population, body piercing in women was associated with sexual behavior. Having multiple heterosexual partners or any same-sex partner was very rare among women without piercings.”
Skegg, Keren, et al. “Body piercing, personality, and sexual behavior.” Archives of sexual behavior 36.1 (2007): 47-54.
@ Marcus D
WOW ! ! !
That’s what I thought when I did that research last year (out of curiosity).
@CF Man “My reason for posting the link showing the decline in birth rates was just to give evidence to back up my statements about more women not wanting children”
Lets try this “uno mas tiempo” and look at “big picture”
– THE ECONOMY IS DOWN
– birth rates are down (you are correct)
– children out of wedlock (WAY UP)
– abortion (down)
– M/F marriages (down)
– Older women having children (UP and the only category increasing)
Here is a article sourcing US Departmment of Health & Human services
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765592822/Number-of-older-women-having-babies-continues-to-grow.html?pg=all
Single mothers by choice US Data
http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-21.pdf
For CENTURIES a womans value and desire was seen to have have children and raise a family – that is the reason for the 6000 year old Torah scripture of Gen 30 ( ie the oldest recorded case of baby rabies).
Do you think that has suddenly changed overnight ?
LOL…. I sincerely believe you dont know women very well.
Allow me to suggest you are in the middle of a mine field and simpy dont realize it.
While I sincerely hope what Opus, Deti, Casey, Buck, Michael, myself and others wrote is regarding your situation is totally incorrect and you are not a statistic.
Best of luck regarding you and the love of your life.
~Shalom
Correction / explanation on above regarding the stats.
Women that should be having children is way down (20/30 year olds married)
Women that should NOT be having children is up (teens to 40’s unmarried, mid 40’s up married )
I wonder what the CF represents and what motivated him to materialise (like a Tardis) at Dalrock?
While I’m sure that counselor’s question is rhetorical, I’ll point out to the peanut gallery that CF Man seems most desperate to convince himself. In this regard, I don’t think he’s really arguing with anyone else.
He’s seen the brutal truth of the situation on this blog, amply illustrated, and in a strange homage to Sigmund Freud, he’s begun a one-man psychodrama, vomiting up his internal conflict, for the edification of the audience. It’s clear that he knows, on some level, that he made massive mistakes in his life, primarily concerning this woman he had the misfortune to be entrapped by. His protests here are merely attempts to shore up the edifice he’s built between his ears, for the sake of his own ego.
Regards, Boxer
As a man with a lot of tattoos I’ve never felt the need to tell folks without ink how sheep like they are etc. Nor has anyone I know with ink. Cannot help but wonder if it’s the bitching of beta boys who hate seeing men that aren’t like them be successful in the SMP.
Oh well not going to waste time thinking about it. Got a lovely brown haired girl with amazing tits who treats my like gold to take on her 1st motorcycle ride.
@Ton
Everybody has its own goals.
If my goal was to bang as many chick as I can, for One Night Stand purposes, disregarding their quality, then yes I would have no problem to get myself full of tattoo and piercings to reach my goal.
But I won’t kid myself. If that’s the road I’m choosing, it’s clear I am actually giving up on marriage and on a few career paths (medical, engineering, CEO, etc).
@ Ton
Ton, you are playing your part as an Alpha perfectly. Banging lots of chicks, riding a motorcycle, etc. (Nothing against motorcycles, I have one too).
You are decidedly Alpha, I am decidedly Beta. As Robinbreak pointed out, we all have choices & goals.
To your point about Beta Bitching……..there’s truth in that. Alpha’s have/will continue to do well in this market. What is annoying to Betas is the number of women that are carousel riding with your ilk and then expect us to ‘man up’ 10-15 years later.
After all………Alphas don’t generally make good marriage material.
As for your gorgeous brunette with great tits……….I assume her canvas is spoiled with ink too?
The gorgeous woman I’m with……….does not have ink.
Like attracts like.
@ Ton
Tattoos are prevalent in people age 30 and younger……i.e. generation Y. It this was anything but a ‘peer pressure’ phenomenon it would be spreading to people of ALL ages.
Let’s do a little math………when did Father get booted out of the house in earnest by the feminist movement? ANSWER: about 30 years ago.
What child demographic is most likely to have social problems? ANSWER: homes where no father is present.
Which young adults are most likely to get tattoos? ANSWER: the ones with the most behavioural & social problems.
So let me ask you this: How is your relationship with your father? Is he even in the picture?
How about your gorgeous brunette with great tits? How is her relationship with her father? Is he even in the picture?
How about your friends with ink? How is their relationship with their father? Is he even in the picture?
Like attracts like: you know a lot of people with ink…………I don’t.
Perhaps the word sheep was too strong………we are just peer-bonding with others like ourselves.
I’ve never encountered a gal yet with tattoos who was not a meat gobbling protein receptacle. And yes, a 5 minute conversation with any of them reveals daddy issues, split home, abuse etc. If I were a play’a I’d LOVE tattoos on women…it is a neon sign saying DTF!!!
@Buck -“tattoos -…a 5 minute conversation with any of them reveals daddy issues, split home, abuse etc”
I have encountered the same exact thing including drugs – I am quite thankful when I see them. It saves a lot of time.
@ Buck
“DTF” is an acronym for what? Dick to Face?
Well I’m not sure anyone would call me an alpha in the SMP. I have my share of success, failures joys and heart breaks. My marriage crashed and burned, my ex-wife was unfaithful, and I went without sex the last 5 years of my marriage. After that horror, I take my sex life seriously. I don’t have chicks throwing themselves at me, chicks never approach me… I’m getting by the best way I can given the world I live in. I would have preferred for my marriage to have lasted, to have had more kids etc etc. The american dream stuff. That’s not reality
My profession doesn’t care about tattoos. Most of us have some, some more then others, some none at all. I certainly understand not wanting tattoos for whatever reason. What I don’t understand is hostility towards men who make a different decision then me.
I can also say that whatever works for a man with some women will work against you for other women. Such is life.
The girl I am dating now has 1 tat, it’s a memorial to her late brother. In the weirdness of this world we both lost brothers, both brothers had the same favorite song and we both have weirdly similar tattoos. The three girls I booted after deciding on the brown hair girl had no tattoos.
Which is my MO by the way. Get back from down range, spin some plates, choose the one I like best, rinse repeat as required.
lol’ ing at the notion quality girls… or that they don’t groove on “bad boys” & do one night stands or chicks without tats haven’t seen a mile of cock before breakfast
DTF= down to f#ck
Again, I love freedom, please color the hair wild, gets lots of exposed tattoos, gauges, piercings, you name it…this makes the selection process so much easier! I love the Gay pride parades and slut walks too, please identify yourself! Thank You!!!!
Tattoos are trashy, that’s all I got to say about that. To each his own however. But I’ll bet many who are tattooed will regret it time from now.
Anecdotally speaking, there do exist women who don’t want children. I should know, I was married to one. I didn’t want any myself so that part worked out since no child support was involved in our divorce. The divorce itself? I was very nauseatingly blue pill then, the supplicating kind of nice guy that often drives women berserk. That part is definitely on me. For her part, she was the typical woman who reacted poorly to my blue pill self. If I knew then what I know now, could I have put the marriage back on track? Who knows, but I’m certainly not giving the ex another chance.
@Hopeful:
Regarding your questions on the male pill, all of them are very good ones. To offer one man’s opinion, speaking only from my personal perspective, I would be all for such a pill in theory. However, given what we know of Big Pharma’s habit of synthesizing narcotic combinations that yield benefits early in their life cycle, only to reveal themselves as often lethal toxins in a few short years, I’d be VERY hesitant to unconditionally recommend such a “miracle drug” (if you live here in the U.S., you’ve no doubt been inundated with TV ads from various major law firms over the last few years urging people who’ve used these “miracle drugs” and have suffered their hideous side effects [or their surviving families in the event that the drugs killed them] to sue the manufactures for negligence).
All of that said, knowing nothing about the current prototype drugs, if I had to hazard a guess, I’d say that it would probably be most ideal for men under the age of 40 (in the way that the birth control pill is most effective and safe when used by women under that age). HOPEFULLY it’s effects are reversible with the cessation of the drug’s use – although that might not be certain, depending on where in the experimental stage the current generation of such a drug is.
Again, it really depends on how the drug is engineered. Also, again, my own opinion is that any man who considers “taking the plunge” with this, especially with the first generation of the drug, should think long and hard before leaping and tread carefully once he does.
Mikesinger said: Correction / explanation on above regarding the stats.
Women that should be having children is way down (20/30 year olds married)
Women that should NOT be having children is up (teens to 40′s unmarried, mid 40′s up married)
IOW, exactly the stats we expect to see in a society that’s in the process of imploding.
Random Angeleno said: But I’ll bet many who are tattooed will regret it time from now.
Yes, indeed, and ditto for those with multiple piercings. Whenever I meet these Gen Y-ers or Millennials who look like graffiti-covered pin cushions, the first question that comes to mind, one that one of these days my self-control will fail to curb my tongue and lead me to ask:
“What do you really think that shit is going to make you look like when you’re seventy, grey, wrinkled, balding, and otherwise devoid of every last vestige of youth that allowed you to get away with such juvenile exhibition in the first place?”
This would assume, of course, that their foolish lifestyle decisions and recklessness let them live to any age even close to seventy in the first place.
As much as I think CF Man made a serious mistake (probably a whole string of them), I think I understand him a bit. First of all, being CF myself, and occasionally visiting CF fora, CF is more common than some guys here seem to think. People who are really CF – men and women – are not just people who don’t wants kids yet… we don’t want kids at all. My wife and I are both CF, and always have been, even as children. Call us defective, call us weird – you would undoubtedly be correct in those assessments – but that doesn’t change anything for us or those like us. As it turns out, my wife developed endometriosis at puberty (long before we met), and was physically able to get pregnant, but it would have been, in her case, a life-threatening condition. Not that it mattered: since neither one of has ever had the slightest desire to procreate. That part of us is simply switched off. It’s not universal, nor is it common, but neither is it unheard of.
As for CF Man’s choice to settle for a woman who is undoubtedly beneath him in SMV/MMV – guys do that all the time. I was a freaking Omega loser until I hit about 20, at which point I “came out of my shell.” At 25 I married a woman most here would consider an apex female, but I could have been scooped up earlier (when I was still a blue-pill Omega and didn’t know that my SMV/MMV was about to skyrocket) by a wholly unsuitable woman who recognized my potential SMV/MMV before I did. It’s sort of like finding something in a garage sale that is far more valuable than the owner realizes… you can get FAR more value than you pay for IF you can spot something that is “underpriced” through the ignorance of the owner. Fortunately that didn’t happen to me – it would likely have ended in disaster and misery.
Who knows? Maybe that’s what happened to CF Man. Maybe he under-rated his SMV/MMV and over-rated hers. It should not be controversial here to say that cougars like CF Man’s wife are capable of deception with regard to their desirability. Perhaps he became enamored with a woman who has certain desirable traits, got Oneitis, and pulled the trigger without considering the long-term fallout of marrying an inked-up divorcee six years his senior. She’s probably comfortable in her own skin, and her (presumably) extensive sexual past probably gave her the ability to rock his white-bread world right into the jewelry store, then the wedding chapel. Here’s something to consider: when this comes off the rails, it may not be him who hits the kill switch. Former sluts have a hard time sticking with the “great guys” they occasionally snag: especially if he makes good money that is vulnerable to post-divorce acquisition via the state.
Testosterone injections kill sperm production and increases boners. No need for anything new.
Live to 70? What a horrible fate
@Lyn87 “we don’t want kids at all. ”
Forgive me for mutilating a dead horse. As mentioned ad nauseum when a woman says she doesn’t want kids it is for one two reasons.
1. She cant conceive
2. She is lying and wants kids
In the case of your wife with her endometriosis (btw, my ex-wife of 19 years had it also).
It never removed the desire to have children from her – it was quite often a heated topic ending in bitter acceptance (hypersexualization and birth control at a early age has consequences).
In the cases where women cant conceive it is simply changed to “dont want kids” to avoid embarrassment & save face (This is exactly what we did- I went along with it for her sake).
While I do think there are certainly “exceptions to the rules” in regard to woman NOT wanting children (ie .01 %) – the vast majority (ie 99.99 %) “general rule of thumb” do.
And out of that 99.99% that do want children, there are is a low single to double digit (ie 15% for example) that cant whether it be for lack of a partner, inability to conceive, disease etc that simply say they dont to avoid embarrassment and save face.
Mikeslinger,
I won’t give much of an argument to that. The vast majority of women want children at some time in their lives. But while it is a vast majority, it is not universal (and I think 99.99% is pretty nearly “universal”). Rather than arguing over percentages that neither of us can prove, all I can suggest is that skeptics do an internet search for “Child Free By Choice.”
It’s not huge, but if you think it’s only 0.01%, then it’s bigger than you think.
In fact, I discovered the Mens Rights community after dabbling in the CBFC community, myself. Unlike CF Man, though, I didn’t crap all over the carpet and leave.
In the past (on the Spearhead, I think), I suggested that CBFC’ers and MRA’s are natural allies in some ways. CBFC people (especially CBFC women) get screwed by feminism pretty badly too, since feminism insists on special privileges for mothers… much to the detriment of the child-free. So the CBFC boards are FILLED with women who have nothing good to say about mothers in the workforce getting special treatment – which is a core component of feminism.
I just wanted to thank everyone who posted here. You killed about 30 minutes of my time at work entertaining me. I have never seen such a nasty group of chauvinistic manchilds. Thank goodness for feminism. I’d never date any of the losers like you.
@Lyn87
“CBFC people (especially CBFC women) get screwed by feminism pretty badly too, since feminism insists on special privileges for mothers… much to the detriment of the child-free. So the CBFC boards are FILLED with women who have nothing good to say about mothers in the workforce getting special treatment – which is a core component of feminism.”
Completely makes sense, thanks for posting.
@CF Man
Maybe it’s the heat, but you seem to be arguing that “it’s not that second marriages are inherently much worse than first ones (regarding divorce rates)”, but “first marriages would be as abysmal a prospect as second ones if it weren’t for kids holding the misery filled sack of shite together (temporarily, until the kids escape the miserable ‘nest’)”
Sounds like an argument not to get married, rather than an argument that second marriages aren’t any less crap than first ones…
maybe you could explain your poinr and/or my error?
@Daz
“Thank goodness for feminism. I’d never date any of the losers like you.”
and we men in turn thank you for keeping your ugly, bitter, twisted, misery spreading, soul-less feminist self away from us
luv’n’hugs sweetie
missin’ you already…
XXX
@ Dazzel
@ Dazzel
And what were you Googling at the wee hours of the morning sweetheart?
Keeping in mind the name of the column is “Advice to a Woman in Her 30’s Looking to Marry?”
Sure sweetie, we all know what you were doing. You are coming up close to the wall and looking to get married (you know, because all that feminist bullshit that has been pumped into your head is backfiring on you).
You might be surprised at the pedigree of some of the ‘losers’ on this sight. Very good marriage material. You however, are NOT good marriage material.
You can go stuff your man-shaming rhetoric,
Come back in 10 years when you are alone, childless, and regretful.
I long await someone such as Dazzel explaining precisely how or why Dalrock’s essay is defective. Assuming, as the essay does, that women in their thirties do indeed wish to marry and that some are having difficulty doing so, then what exactly in its simple advice is wrong with the essay? I’d like to know, but all we ever get is shaming and the revelation that the latest Female supremacist, Dazzel spends her time at work, not engaged in her employers affairs, but surfing the net for articles about how a thirty year old (perhaps herself) might marry. Clearly Feminism has no answer to the question or at least one which works – Dalrock’s just might.
I am not one of those men anxious to marry – a woman in any age group, let alone her thirties – but if I were, then Dazzel is hardly – on the basis of her lone comment – going to be someone I might place, even in my long-list.
@ Dazzel
Behold!! Here is another up & coming career gal feminist demanding equal pay for equal work; while Googling on the internet on company time.
@Casey
to be fair, she wasn’t going to do anyhting productive anyway…no time lost.
as you asked; just what was she googling to end up on this thread? lmfao
I use to have three ear peircings, one for each of my kids birthstones, and one for my wifes. As they invariably got lost, I quit replacing them.
Interesting, a bit of the original advice from Dalrock was this – ” The other group of men I would consider are men younger than you”.
So maybe CF Man’s wife is a reader of this blog…….
I would like to see a University study highlighting the relationship between income and tattoos. I bet every dollar in my Scottrade account an inverse relationship exists. It would be very hard to produce the study. You would need a large sample and a way to verify every persons income. Perhaps a sociology professor will read this someday and find a way to fund the study so we can confirm what we all know is true.
I wonder if the average 30+ year old women past her biological expiration date, with high partner counts, loaded with debts (student loans, partying etc), feels any conscious remorse or biting awareness; when she passes herself off as something she is not; in the process marrying a man with the types of qualities she rejected in the beauty of her youth – a good man, a provider, low partner counts, a good person, responsible, a man with low/no debt, good father etc.
I sometimes wonder if these women are bothered by it.
OT
I would like to know; what do you people think about the incoming sexbots/virtual women? Do you think the government will ban them, or will the female suicide rate skyrocket?
Michael says:
July 21, 2013 at 3:12 pm
“I sometimes wonder if these women are bothered by it.”
Answer…NOT AT ALL!!!
The over-the-top ego of all women, but especially used up sluts is truly mind-numbing.
I guarantee you her past “mistakes” ( if that’s even what she calls them) are directly blamed on some man…father, priest, uncle, ex-boyfriends, ex-husbands, men in general.
Women simply are not introspective.
If some dried up old whore lands a guy WAY above her market value she immediately thinks she can do better, Mr white knight is beneath her.
@Buck
and all her older, uglier harridan mates think the same; that they can do better than the guy WAY above her MV too. Delusion is contagious in the herd
Not a study, just my experience. Have a nephew that has all those bad things, tats, piercings, sometimes coloured hair. His live-in is the same. Both are hard workers and realized a niche business opportunity away from the city. They opened a business, and are doing incredible in red neck land..
Get it that they may be the exception, but really, in some areas, including a very small town that the wife and I have a place, it seems that there are more tats then not. and most of these small towners are hard working/living people.
Interesting enough every woman I date says I am chauvinistic and they like it. One girl refusing to date me doesn’t cut down the herd by very much
Tattoos are so common you might just get your little heart broken. They are very popular in the trades, who normally do well. Pro athletes and entertainers could throw the numbers. I would also like to see the numbers adjusted for debt. Most folks having no real wealth when debt is factored in. I do appreciate the posts. You can tell a lot about a man from such things.
Well I did not want to bring personal experience into it but since someone else did………
One of my friends from high school is an elevator mechanic, they make $45 an hour and are tatted up. Same for my friend who’s a dock worker. Military , cops, firemen make good money and tatts are common. Same for car and bike mechanics and there’s 30+ men on my crew, we all make 140k+. A lot and I mean a lot of older men / vets have a tatt and now are at there peak wealth/ income
Personally I would not care what the results say since I am supremely happy with the money I have/ make and my life in general.
Originally tattoos and piercingly were used to mark an owner’s slaves. Therefore women who voluntarily tatoo their bodies in this way have a slave mentality and a serious character flaw.
Leviticus 19:28…do not mark your skin with tattoos, I am The Lord!
God said DO NOT do it…case closed!
Per annum income /= class. Tattoos are low class not low earning. Understand now?
I am bored at work once again. Decided to come back to see the whiny, defensive replies I’d get.
For starters, I’m a feminist, not a man hater. All you crazy misogynists have the term wrong. The original intention of feminism was not hating men, but just wanted to be equal to men. Yes, men and women are not equal physically, but we should be valued the same as a living being and have the same rights and benefits as those with a wiener. I mean, hell, it’s just not cool that simply because I was born with a set of ovaries that my lot in life should be to submit to weenies and work at home.
I don’t understand what you men have against a career oriented women. I have never been career oriented. Just working crappy jobs. Now that I am 25 (YES, 25, not in her 30s! But I wish I was in my 30s because I like older men and I would be closer to their age so it would be more socially acceptable for me to date them *sigh*). But now I’m a little more career-minded because I just got a great new job and want to go to school. But somehow this terrifies you all. I don’t think you want to be outdone by a woman monetarily. I think it hurts your man-egos.
Oh, and I’m not on the internet on company time, really. For the time being, I work 12 hour shifts on nights until I get my new job. My boss says you need to have things to do like get online, video games, books, etc or you will never stay awake. So my boss has given me permission to be online. There is no work to do. It’s a brainless zombie job.
Oh, and I do want to get married. But I’m not in a rush. I don’t like to be chained down. I want to travel. And I also don’t want children….EVER. You know how hard it is to find a guy who doesn’t want kids? Not all women need someone perfect. You all must have some real trouble in the real world dating to have such bitterness. My standards aren’t too bad…..I’d like someone who doesn’t want kids, who works, has good hygiene, and drives. I think these are all standards that everyone should have, anyways. But you wouldn’t believe how many men out there lack ALL of these damn traits.
Oh wow, you guys killed 10 minutes for me this time. It’s almost my break time! I can go put another nail in my coffin (smoke a cig). Thank you all for making 9pm hit rather quickly. 😀
*popcorn
And for the record I wasn’t looking up anything on dating. A lady in an online community I went to posted the article fretting because she was worried about her own love life. Your article isn’t helpful to women but makes them feel inferior. As a matter of fact, i think that’s all you’re good for. Thankfully I’m not someone who will buy into any of this crap, but some sensitive women run into this site I am sure. And I am sure what they read will trouble them. How dare you all. 😦
Oh my god Dazzel
You can’t imagine how many feminist stereotypes your are trending.
Michael, do you want to take a crack at this one? I don’t know where to begin.
(I’m having choice addiction……..just like poor Dazzel)
@Dazzel “I’d never date any of the losers like you.”
Please do us “losers” a favor and post a picture so this wont occur. It will save both parties time, money, as well as opportunity cost.
Better yet, just make sure that you have a “tat” & a “coffin” & in view.
@Ton ” vets have a tatt and now are at there peak wealth/ income”.
Whether there is a correlation between “tats” and income is inconsequential since I think you are missing the point. Hence, allow me to “reframe” what is being mentioned in light of the very insightful studies of Marcus D. Whether there is a difference between men & women (there is ) you are comparing apples and oranges in regards to income vs ethics/morals.
There is a very strong correlation between “tats” and emotional, moral, mental, sexual upbringing/wellbeing – this cannot be denied.
You are confusing what a person has gone through and what they essentially are vs what they possess in monetary terms- this is vast difference. Here is a example – there is no correlation between the ability/character/virtue of a car driver vs the type of car they drive. If that is the case then people who drive the most expensive / nicest cars are the best drivers/have the highest character virtue.
While money / disposable income allows for a wider option of choices – it cant take away the abuse nor incidents as mentioned in the studies that Marcus D provided. Btw, my experience with women mirrors what the study outcomes.
~Shalom
Casey- Okay, so I am flowing with feminism. This does not offend me because I consider myself a feminist. But don’t pigeon-hole me with the RADICAL ones, because even I don’t like them.
This is obviously a place filled with men that are for men’s rights. So how come it’s okay for you guys to whine and moan and expect your rights, when you guys expect a woman to pretty much forgo her rights when she gets into a marriage? How come you want to keep her trapped at home and be the breadwinner yourself?
It’s easy for you guys to say a woman should be this, a woman should be that, the Bible says women should be submissive, blah blah blah. And that’s because YOU, your gender, is NOT the one getting the short end of the stick. Hell, a majority of religion and culture gives women the short end of the stick.
And yet you guys are whining about it? Women have been oppressed throughout history. You guys are so……so archaic.
Dazzel, there will never be equality. NO such thing exists. Only the right to be the unique individual you are.
@ Ton
You must have meant to type 40k yr. Not 140k. Unless you are a Ferrari mechanic. The jobs you mention are blue collar jobs. Not white collar.
I have never seen such a nasty group of chauvinistic manchilds. Thank goodness for feminism. I’d never date any of the losers like you.
How original. Come back when you have some fresh material to work with.
I was going to just ignore dazzle. She is and MRA training aid. https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/advice-to-a-single-woman-in-her-30s-looking-to-marry/#comment-87456 that comment there was word for word out of the PUA, MRA play book of female quotes. The Shaming, the boasting, really something to see. I got a woman to reply like that a couple times from a comment on a yahoo article.
Yeah Ton you are promiscuous tatted up slut.
Michael
You would be amazed at what some “blue Collar” jobs pay.
blah blah blah blah, a feminist is a man hater. Feminism demands equality where there is none. Men and women are different, to deny the obvious is stupidity. We just accept that, you on the other hand have to use laws, shame and petty insults to try to get people to believe in your crap.
Take it elsewhere sista! Moxie and giirrrrrlllll power don’t work here. I know, grrrrrrrrr! How dare us men say this to you?! Call the Obamanator and tell him your problems, cause, quite frankly my dear, I just don’t give a shit.
@Daz
do what you want, we don’t care about anything that you have to say. if you’re looking for bitter, try a mirror (a strong one).
scared?? *lmao* repulsed is the word.
Nope 140k is starting pay, part-time work. 60 days on, 60 days off. Job depends on your DD 214 & try outs, which is more of a formality.
Yes blue collar, all kinds of men do all kinds of work. Are you also anti blue collar? Does our money not count or is white collar men the only men in the world?
I’m only speaking on the money issue as its a potentially quantifiable metric. ‘m hmm
As for tattoos & sin, last I looked we are all sinners and unworthy of God’s love. Which is the point behind Grace.
Thanks for the kind words Grey Ghost.
We either believe God is a benevolent dictator who admonishes us not to do harmful things, so as to help us enjoy a better, fuller life….OR….in rebellion, we believe he is a cosmic killjoy just out to wreck our fun.
Yes, all have sinned….and your point?
So I should ignore His law because everyone else does too?
What, since my neighbor got a tattoo I should mistreat animals…????
I am old enough to know that those who follow His law closely live better, those who choose to ignore His law usually don’t have things end well.
At last! (I feared we would never get there) Dazzel has explained: she is a member of an on-line community that linked the above Article; and a lady who posts there and who is fretting about her own love life, has taken Dalrock’s article to heart. It’s all Dalrock’s fault because as Dazzel explains the article makes women [well some, mainly slags] feel inferior and although Dazzel being the tougher-than-old-boots person she is this cannot hurt her, is nevertheless afeared that some other woman might be upset and take Dalrock’s cruel advice to heart. Shame on you Dalrock for failing to point out that any woman, no matter her age, her promiscuity, her LTRs and broken marriages, her Bastard Children, her Tats, her STDs, and drink and drug habits cannot also find love! and is every bit as marriagable if not more so and deserving of love than the unreal type of woman that Dalrock describes. It is the duty of every man (especially those who comment here) to man-up by going-down on one knee before these deserving women and do so before they are snapped up by the local Christian Gray and I have that on the authority of no less an authority than Pastor Driscoll himself.
‘Women are cheap today
Cheaper than yesterday
La la la da da da
La la la da da da’
(to the tune of Donna e Mobile)
What I am saying is we are all sinners of all manners of sin. The fact is if I knew more about you, I’m 100% certain I could find all manner of sin and ungodlyness.
As for me being trash and low class, sure. If it makes you feel better. My questions are who are you for me to care about your opinions? You don’t feed me, fuck me or rate me at work. why does it bug you someone does differently then you? A person’s tattoos do you no harm, infringes on none of your rights or property, or is your lust to control others that strong, your sense of self that small that you simply cannot say it’s not for me and move on happily in your life?
Ton, sounding like a feminist isn’t good. Just know we are not judging you, just identifying you.
@ Dazzel
So let me get this straight:
1) You want to be married, but you are in no hurry. (Cock Carousel)
2) You want to meet someone, but you don’t want to be tied down (again….Cock Carousel)
3) You want to be married, but you don’t want children (because that cramps your style)
4) You work some zombie job presently, which pays SFA
5) You smoke
6) All Men’s Rights Activists are misogynists
7) All misogynists are crazy
8) You admit to being a feminist
9) Your standards for what you want in a man are LOW, and yet you cannot find ONE (more likely, cannot see him if he stood in front of you).
10) EXCEPTION, you want a man who does not want children……….that is pretty rare, and those who don’t want children, probably see little benefit in ‘tying the knot’ with you.
11) You somehow believe men are frightened by you going to school (presumably for some fucking stupid _________-ology degree).
12) You wish to date men in their 30’s, and you are 25 (for some reason you think society believes this is a problem…….NOPE, not if you have what men in their 30’s want: that being pleasant, attractive, slim, & available)
13) You seem to think that #12 is something other than Hypergamy.
14) The men you meet (& probably fuck) don’t meet your criteria of, don’t want children, employed, good hygiene, & drives a car).
15) You signed off your post with a man-shaming “How dare you all”
Indeed, how dare YOU Miss ( or should I say Ms.)
Dazzel……….you are the POSTER child for women making stupid, short-sighted, selfish, & idiotic decisions.
You appear to be VERY lousy marriage material.
I’ll wager the men you ‘date’ are Alphas, and you are riding the carousel for as long as it will turn for you.
If you are 25,and cannot attract a decent marriageable man in his 30’s….it’s because you are not one or more of the following:
1) Pleasant
2) Attractive
3) Slim
4) Making yourself available
Any man in his 30’s at the HEIGHT of his SMV is not going to settle down with a woman who DOES NOT want children (even if he also does not want children) if she brings NO other attributes to the table.
1) Money
2) Rock hard body
3) Pleasant demeanor
I’ll wager you don’t meet any of these criteria.
How dare YOU Ms. How dare YOU.
@Casey
“Any man in his 30′s at the HEIGHT of his SMV is not going to settle down with a woman who DOES NOT want children (even if he also does not want children) if she brings NO other attributes to the table.
1) Money
2) Rock hard body
3) Pleasant demeanor”
So a man who does not want children and who is considering marriage with a woman who also does not want children feels that the woman will have have to compensate by offering, “1) Money2) Rock hard body,3) Pleasant demeanor”?Why would he perceive her not wanting children as a negative point if he doesn’t even want them himself?
@ Dazzel
Feminism is NOT about equality……….and it NEVER has been about equality. It is, and always has been about putting men’s throats underneath the jackboot of feminism.
The men on this site recognize that feminism is about FEMALE discrimination against men; and the assigning of all costs for your misandry, stupidity, and short-sightedness to the shoulders of men.
We refuse to play by those rules any longer. We are sick & tired of being put in the corner by the feminist fascist state.
You can’t see the truth, because you have been awash in feminism your ENTIRE life. Dare I say, you are the one who is afraid.
You are afraid that this little scam is coming unglued, and that men will opt out of marrying trolls like yourself.
You are afraid that if men rose up in increasing numbers to take back their masculinity; that your feminist state would fold like a cheap house of cards, which it is indeed.
When you sign on for your nightshift tonight, take a hard look around at your lonely, zombie job life…….where you try to kill time to get through those 12 hours.
You can thank feminism for all it has brought to your life.
You go GIRRLRRLLLLL!!!!!
@ Perspective
I didn’t say he’d see it as a negative point if he also does not want children.
I’m saying that with that requirement removed, others become more important and steadfast.
What does a perspective mate offer to my life? Certainly you ask yourself these questions too when considering a man, no?
Does she bring financial resources to the relationship, or am I putting myself at undue risk for an Alimony suit down the road?
Is she attractive? Associative pairing plays a role here…..5 with a 5, 7 with a 7, 9 with a 9, etc. If she isn’t putting an effort into her appearance; why am I bothering in the first place?
Is she pleasant? Does she spend her time bemoaning what the world has done to her up to this point? Does she have a lot of negative things to say about men inparticular?
The single, employed, high earning, marriageable, intelligent men out there are asking themselves these questions. (I certainly do.)
@Casey
Sorry if I misunderstood, maybe “negative point” weren’t the right choice of words to describe what you said. Perhaps lacking would have been more suitable? You can tell me if I’m wrong, but I just got the sense that it was implied that you felt a woman who doesn’t want kids is lacking, (even to men who don’t want kids themselves) and would need to compensate even more so than women who do want children by offering the attributes you mentioned.I understand that most men want a women who is financially responsible, pleasant, and fit, but it just seemed you were emphasizing that a woman who doesn’t want kids would be expected to possess these attributes even more so than a woman who does want children.
@ Perspective
I wouldn’t say she is ‘lacking’……but I might question if she TRULY does not want children, or if she is just spouting feminism, and will rescind this edict at a later date.
On this earth, there is certainly one thing that men CANNOT do: give birth to a child. To have children, we need a woman. If children are NOT important to a man and/or woman, then his reasons for marrying just diminished significantly.
I can’t speak for the other men on this site (chime in guys), but I know I don’t want to marry a woman who is an undue risk to me. Financial irresponsibility is high up on that list.
Attractiveness is a necessity for both men & women. The last time I checked, women are grading men with a list of their own.
Men find woman who are good looking, pleasant, & fit attractive, with a great deal of discretion on what ‘good looking’ & fit’ means to any individual man.
What is universally found unattractive is:
1) Obesity
2) Bitchiness
3) Combination of both
I guess it comes down to this question: With the issue of children removed, what reasons are you giving a man to marry you?
Companionship can be attained without getting married.
@Casey
Thanks for clarifying. In answer to your question,
” I guess it comes down to this question: With the issue of children removed, what reasons are you giving a man to marry you?”
If a man DOES want children then I can see why a woman who DOESN’T want them would need to make a compelling case as to why he should marry her. Although granted, a man who does want kids probably wouldn’t waste his time a woman who doesn’t them to begin with.
However, if a man and the woman who he is considering for marriage with do NOT want children, some reasons for why they might want to marry could be religious/personal values/morals. If a man is in love with, attracted to, and wants to live with a woman, then at some point they’re obviously going to want to consummate the relationship. If one (and especially both) do not believe in intimacy before marriage, then what else can they do other than marry to make in order to make it legit religiously, morally, and legally?
(just some minor editing for that last part)
If one (and especially both) do not believe in intimacy before marriage, then what else can they do other than marry, in order to make it legit religiously, morally, and legally?
Why would he perceive her not wanting children as a negative point if he doesn’t even want them himself?
Wow perspective anything to avoid the slightest hint of submission. Ladies please have something to offer. You are not the prize. It is not enough to be female and then be a burden. Be a helper, be someone that adds to the life of the one you burden. Any woman her that is thirty and single and would ask a question like that, you need to be 30 plus for ever and single for any man that makes a commitment to a woman like that is getting burden and nothing else.
@Perspective
“If a man is in love with, attracted to, and wants to live with a woman, then at some point they’re obviously going to want to consummate the relationship.”
I think this phrase encapsulates what Casey is getting at. “if a man is in love with….” That’s a big if. Casey suggested some things that would fill that “if” (attractiveness, pleasantness, availability,etc.) that work for him. So if both the man and woman don’t want children, the man would be looking for what other benefits the woman presents. His question is a good one.
@GG
“Wow perspective anything to avoid the slightest hint of submission. Ladies please have something to offer. You are not the prize. It is not enough to be female and then be a burden. Be a helper, be someone that adds to the life of the one you burden. Any woman her that is thirty and single and would ask a question like that, you need to be 30 plus for ever and single for any man that makes a commitment to a woman like that is getting burden and nothing else.”
I’m not trying to “avoid the slightest hint of submission,” and I’m not sure why my question would make you think that. I’m not full of myself and never said I’m the “prize,” but neither am I or will be a “burden.” And if God wills it that I marry, I feel that what I have to offer will be of value.
@Hopeful
“I think this phrase encapsulates what Casey is getting at. “if a man is in love with….” That’s a big if. Casey suggested some things that would fill that “if” (attractiveness, pleasantness, availability,etc.) that work for him. So if both the man and woman don’t want children, the man would be looking for what other benefits the woman presents. His question is a good one.”
When you word that way, I think I can finally see what Casey was getting at.Thanks.
@ Perspective
Those are questions rarely raised here……but valid.
I am curious to know what religious man holding on to his virginity into his 30’s would NOT want children. I don’t know…….just asking.
Finding a man in his 30s who does not want children & who believes in marriage before sex is rare. I’m assuming he may be a deeply religious man who has been divorced by his wife and already has children. I doubt you’ll find such a man as a virgin at the age of 30.
It sounds like you are going WAY back in time……..to when women were chaste, and their husbands took their virginity. Not a bad concept, just largely not a reality in the here and now.
I assume you are speaking of yourself in these posts, so I’ll assume that is your goal. You wish to marry a man, and have sex later. In which case, that is what you offer this man…….sex within a marriage.
To that end, you still need to get him to marry you……..and that requires you to attract this man; and my previous post points remain valid.
At least you know the TYPE of man for which you are looking.
Also, if you are this deeply religious………I assume certain Chapters/verses out of Ephesians are NO problem for you? In particular 5: 22-33.
If you can abide by those chapters, then you have a shot……and are sincere in your faith. If not, then you are trying to use sex as the tool to get marriage.
“I feel that what I have to offer will be of value.”
A woman has only two things to offer:
– Regular sex
– Submission
If a woman does not offer even one of those, she does not deserve a husband.
And no, a woman can not offer “love”. They can only take love. RM wrote about this some time ago (an article called “Women in Love”).
Sex is vastly overrated. I’ve been taking meds, exercising and meditating to kill my sex drive, and have achieved a wonderful combination of contentment and clarity. I advise doing the same to other mgtow. Free yourselves from the invisible chains and lashes of women.
@Casey
“Also, if you are this deeply religious………I assume certain Chapters/verses out of Ephesians are NO problem for you? In particular 5: 22-33.”
If I’m not mistaken, these are verses on submission, and no they’re not a problem for me.
“If you can abide by those chapters, then you have a shot……and are sincere in your faith. If not, then you are trying to use sex as the tool to get marriage.”
I am sincere in my faith would never try to use intimacy “as the tool to get marriage.” That should never be perceived or used as a tool or a burden within marriage. I know some (or most) might disagree with me on this and think it’s a bunch of romantic nonsense, but I think intimacy within marriage should not just be seen as a physical release, but also as a means for a husband and wife to grow closer to one another, hence the term, “intimacy.”
@ Perspective
One other thing, if you are this deeply religious……..a comparably religious man will value that in you; so you have that to offer as well (and it is rare.)
Be selective about where you choose to look for this man.
Perspective
You are not full of yourself I can tell that. but you are immersed in feminisms blue pill. A woman that does not want kids has to one serious phreak to marry. Now I am 48 now so “children” is not a reason for me to marry now if that was something I was looking for. (I have three that I want and love enough to be an MRA) For me personally I know too much to marry now for any reason. The only reason to marry now is to have children with birth certificates with all the names and addresses the same. Until some guy invents a fish tank a guy can jack off into to grow a child that is the way it is. (If that was an option even blue pill greyghost would have done that.) To answer your question no kids these days is a huge negative. Fill that with what you should have brought to the table anyway for a man that is blissfully ignorant and looking for a wife.
@Casey
“Those are questions rarely raised here……but valid.
I am curious to know what religious man holding on to his virginity into his 30’s would NOT want children. I don’t know…….just asking.”
I think the answer to this question can found in the very words you used to describe this type of man, which is, he’s, a “religious man” who happens to “NOT want children.” I know, rare, but still exist.
“I assume you are speaking of yourself in these posts, so I’ll assume that is your goal. You wish to marry a man, and have sex later. In which case, that is what you offer this man…….sex within a marriage.”
I know some men feel that all a wife has to offer is sex, and that companionship can be found by other sources, but I still think (and know)there are men who actually like having their wives around for something other than that. And although many wives are not the main bread winners, many also still work (I know I will) and help provide financial support, and the domestic duties, such as cooking and cleaning, which I’m prepared to be entirely responsible for. Yes, I know men are perfectly capable of doing this on their own, without a woman, but I’m sure most would agree and expect that she will take on most (or all)of the domestic duties as some of her primary responsibilities.
@Casey
One other thing, if you are this deeply religious……..a comparably religious man will value that in you; so you have that to offer as well (and it is rare.)
Be selective about where you choose to look for this man.”
Thanks, and will do.
@GG
“To answer your question no kids these days is a huge negative. Fill that with what you should have brought to the table anyway for a man that is blissfully ignorant and looking for a wife.”
I can respect your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but why exactly do you think a woman who doesn’t want kids is a “freak” and a “huge negative?” You’re blessed with children of your own and seem to embrace your role as a father, which is wonderful, but why do you think it’s so wrong for women in particular who choose not to have children of their own?
@ Dazzel
So you admit there are radical feminists. Thanks for that; as it adds proof to the points below.
What you are missing is that it is MEN who are currently giving up their rights when they get married. Marriage has never been more skewed towards the benefit of women than it is right NOW.
Does your gender fret about losing their children in divorce?
Does your gender fret about where the money will come from after divorce?
Does you gender risk suspension of their right to travel (suspension of passports)?
Does your gender fear speaking up in mixed company about female inequality?
Men are very much getting the short end of the stick, as we have to shoulder the fallout from your gender’s shitty decisions; and the perpetual right to change your mind with zero consequences to yourselves.
Western women are so NOT being oppressed. It is MEN who are being oppressed.
When you get to your future Alma Mater; be sure to ask which direction the Male Studies department is located. HINT…….there isn’t one.
There are quite a few classic quotes on this thread that are pure gold !
@ Opus “Shame on you Dalrock for failing to point out that any woman, no matter her age, her promiscuity, her LTRs and broken marriages, her Bastard Children, her Tats, her STDs, and drink and drug habits cannot also find love! and is every bit as marriagable if not more so and deserving of love than the unreal type of woman that Dalrock describes.
It is the duty of every man (especially those who comment here) to man-up by going-down on one knee before these deserving women and do so before they are snapped up by the local Christian Gray and I have that on the authority of no less an authority than Pastor Driscoll himself.”
@ MGHOW – This is very true regarding the discipling the sex drive. It does bring “contentment and clarity.” as well as see / hear women for what they are. It makes it very easy to call women out as well as walk away /ignore women (btw, women HATE to be ignored – it is simply unnerving for them and removes all perceived power).
@Perspective ” women in particular who choose not to have children of their own?”
When a woman says they it means they cant or they are lying /omission and will amend this later.
If they cant- the question is why ?
If they don’t – the question is why and when?
She is not a phreak for not wanting kids she needs to be a phreak if she doesn’t want kids. Phreak is a sling figure of speech for a very sexual woman. As I was saying earlier the only reason a man has for marrying a woman is to have a uterus on had to grow his children in. And if there was fake uterus and a real woman I would choose the fake uterus for children and use the woman for booty calls (sex on my terms) For me no children is and was a deal breaker for even blue pill greyghost because I knew then women were just a legal, financial, emotional and just all around burden. The fantasy project on to a woman when you see her always seem to be better than actually having her around especially when her tingle for you wears off.
I know you like the conversation but try not play dumb here.
Wow a bunch of males feel they’re being oppressed. Call the media. THIS IS THE STORY OF THE CENTURY.
@GG
“I know you like the conversation but try not play dumb here.”
One thing I will never do here (or anywhere else) is “play dumb,” and I’m still unsure as to why you would think that. Just to be very clear, if I’m asking you or anyone else a question about what they’ve written, it’s because I DID NOT understand or need clarification about what they’ve said.
“She is not a phreak for not wanting kids she needs to be a phreak if she doesn’t want kids. Phreak is a sling figure of speech for a very sexual woman.”
I was curious about that term and actually looked it up, I didn’t come across any definition that defined “phreak” as a “sling figure of speech for a very sexual woman.” And what does “sling figure of speech” mean? I don’t necessarily think a woman who marries without wanting children is what you define as a “phreak.” It’s just that if she’s religious and doesn’t believe in sex before marriage, and then meets, falls in love with, and is attracted to someone, she’s not going to consummate that relationship until they marry. Intimacy is just a part of marriage. It doesn’t mean she has a raging sex drive or is a nymphomaniac.
“As I was saying earlier the only reason a man has for marrying a woman is to have a uterus on had to grow his children in. And if there was fake uterus and a real woman I would choose the fake uterus for children and use the woman for booty calls (sex on my terms)”
Yes, but I think I had mentioned in my previous posts that I was talking about men who marry and who DON’T want children, not those who do.
Honestly, I don’t know why so many women ‘bristle’ at Ephesians 5: 22-33
It has many directions in there that the husband is to follow. I.E. Loving & cherishing his wife.
Coles Notes:
Wives: Submit to & respect your husbands
Husbands: Cherish & love your wives as you would yourselves.
@ms
“When a woman says they it means they cant or they are lying /omission and will amend this later.
If they cant- the question is why ?
If they don’t – the question is why and when?”
Based on your posts about this subject, it seems you have a firm belief that women who say they don’t want kids are either unable to, or lying/omission. I don’t claim to know what goes on in the minds and hearts of every woman who says she doesn’t want children, but I just find it hard to believe that nearly everyone of them who says they don’t want kids,either can’t, are lying, or will change their minds at some point. Although I think it’s quite possible that women who voluntarily choose to not have children sometimes think about what it would have been like to be mothers, and perhaps even feel some regret, I think that most are at terms with their decision and have done so with resolve.
“It’s just that if she’s religious and doesn’t believe in sex before marriage,”
If she’s religious, wouldn’t she want children? Is it possible to be deeply religious (I’m meaning specifically Christian here, Biblically so) and not want children? Maybe I missed something.
Nice shaming attempt; try again with a real answer.
@ Nope
Thanks for making my point……..I’ll assume you are both:
1) Female
2) Sarcastic
Men’s Rights Activists bring up valid points as to how they are being shit upon by the feminist movement, and you choose to make fun of those points.
I believe that was item # 2 on Gandhi’s list of progression.
1) First they ignore you
2) Then they make fun of you
3) Then they fight you
4) Then you win.
That looks like progress to me. Please come back & fight with me, because that’s even closer to our goal.
I’ll put this in simple terms, Nope……go FUCK yourself.
@Hopeful
“If she’s religious, wouldn’t she want children? Is it possible to be deeply religious (I’m meaning specifically Christian here, Biblically so) and not want children? Maybe I missed something.”
Yes, typically it would seem that those who are religious would want children, but at the same time, I don’t necessarily believe that the two are mutually exclusive. I know some will disagree, but I do believe it’s possible to be a person of faith who also happens to have chosen to not have children.
Slang is the word Perspective. Typos on an explanation just makes things worst.
Yes, but I think I had mentioned in my previous posts that I was talking about men who marry and who DON’T want children, not those who do.
I was basically answering the question for myself before
Now a man that doesn’t want children in this day an age and still thinks he can have a Christian marriage is delusional. By law there is no such thing. That is an expectation that is too much to ask for. If you are looking for a husband this late in the game and wanna play Christian bride you may be out of luck. best bet is to go to a church and have this frank conversation. You may surprise yourself.
::Mental exercise::
A woman who claims that they do not want children is like a woman who (more so in this current age) vows that they will remained married to their husbands.
Above is but one reason why men have suspicion of women who claim that they do not want children.
@Perspective “I think that most are at terms with their decision and have done so with resolve.”
“I think”…….. LOL…..Sure about that ???
I respectfully disagree and “I think not”
To suggest the empowered, educated American women have somehow “evolved” and “are at terms with their decision and have done so with resolve” is delusional or a faux pas.
Why have so many women historically use sex/pregnancy to trap a man ?
Given the amount of unwed mothers (on the rise) , declining abortions, in this culture where birth control is easily obtainable, sex education accessible – your argument is ex facie.
In addition, a quick review of history, civilization, and personal experience with women prove otherwise.
As mentioned earlier, there are 99.9999999% of women that want children or will come to want children ( to the point it becomes quite insatiable) .
The rest are those given to a religious sect, damaged goods, or a very unique path. The “exception to the rules” are truly scarce.
@GG
“Now a man that doesn’t want children in this day an age and still thinks he can have a Christian marriage is delusional. By law there is no such thing.”
To each their own, although I’m not sure what you mean when you state “by law there is no such thing.” Is there actually a law that prevents this? Again, I’m “not playing dumb,” I just want to know.
“That is an expectation that is too much to ask for. If you are looking for a husband this late in the game and wanna play Christian bride you may be out of luck. best bet is to go to a church and have this frank conversation. You may surprise yourself.”
I’m not playing “Christian bride” or anything else. My faith is not a game, it’s sincere. You say “I’m this late in the game” and yes, I know I’m not in my early 20’s anymore, and the available prospective mates decrease with each year. I’m under no illusions, and neither do I have this insanely crazy list of what I expect in a mate. If God’s wills it, I believe it will happen. If not, I will accept that too.
“best bet is to go to a church and have this frank conversation. You may surprise yourself.”
Believe it or not, I’ve actually already have had this conversation with many people (men and women) from church. Granted, some voiced opposition, but most were surprisingly supportive, and there were even a few who had similar views.
@mikesinger
“I think”…….. LOL…..Sure about that ???
I respectfully disagree and “I think not”
And it’s fine if you disagree. And since I can’t read minds, no, “I’m not sure about that” that’s why I said, “I think.” However, when I meet late 40 something and fifty something women who don’t have children, and who I know did not have any medical condition that prevented them from doing so, and who seem to be okay with their marriages (yes, they’re married,not crazy cat women) and their lives in general, then I would think it’s reasonable to come to the conclusion that they actually did not want to become parents.
“To suggest the empowered, educated American women have somehow “evolved” and “are at terms with their decision and have done so with resolve” is delusional or a faux pas.”
I didn’t say anything how “empowered, educated American women” are “evolved,” I just said that some (and I believe that “some” is more than the percentage that you say) are okay and yes, at terms with their choice of never having children.
“Why have so many women historically use sex/pregnancy to trap a man ?
Given the amount of unwed mothers (on the rise) , declining abortions, in this culture where birth control is easily obtainable, sex education accessible – your argument is ex facie.
In addition, a quick review of history, civilization, and personal experience with women prove otherwise.”
The above scenarios are truly unfortunate and I completely disagree with the lifestyles that led to them, however, you speak mainly about unwed mothers, but I refer mostly to those who are married and did not partake in lifestyles with practices such as “sex/pregnancy to trap a man.”
“As mentioned earlier, there are 99.9999999% of women that want children or will come to want children ( to the point it becomes quite insatiable) .
The rest are those given to a religious sect, damaged goods, or a very unique path. The “exception to the rules” are truly scarce.”
Again, I respectfully disagree with your “99.9999999%” and also lumping nearly all women without children by choice in “religious sect, damaged goods, or a very unique path.” None of the women who I know who arenot parents by choice fit into any of these categories.
Women are good at lying. Including to themselves. @ women over child bearing age who had no medical issues
“This late in the game” is during this period in time in history. With the family laws we have in place any man that marries is just a target drone for misandry. You have absolutely no reason to treat your husband as nothing more than a prop on your stage in life. I know this and you know this and it is impossible for you to guarantee any man from frivorce just something to know. That being said you are on your way to getting what you would like by at least talking about it. Rather than seek affirmation and support seek romance. Also you may have already met the man you want and just haven’t allowed yourself to see the guy. Your greatest gift as a woman is sexual so get used to being sexually stimulating with out being a slut. Just as a drill right here describe yourself sexually how you like to be touched and put more into descriptions of the feelings and passion rather than the action. Be alive and make us blush let yourself feel out loud with sexual emotion. Get used to it and you will get attention. get some of that gina tingle in your life and manner. God gave you a wonderful mind and body try to enjoy it and let others know you enjoy your life and sexual body. Try that and see what you get. You are way too stiff.
@Perspective”None of the women who I know who are not parents by choice fit into any of these categories.”
Please do tell then. What are the specifics ???
Btw, this is coming from a guy who married a women who could not conceive due to a early sexual activity and abetted by parent supplied conception (self inflicted casualty). Transitioning to eligible bachelor entering into single hood (w/o kids) again in early my 40’s.
My experience / education included dating/courting divorced women of Master/phD education level who “amended” their ” terms with their decision and have done so with resolve” to their ex-husbands dismay. They dropped the baby-rabies bombs on these poor guys who thought they married a fun, educated, beautiful life long companion who didnt want children (WRONG !).
They made their husbands life a living hell demanding children (demanded a vasectomy reversal) .
Interestingly enough, the hubbies cheated on them with women without kids. Which resulted in divorcing their fun ex-hubbies for not being good fathers and husbands.
Little did their realizing their gross breach of contract (ie It is a womans right to change her mind) would leave them as working full time mothers in their mid to late 40’s (thats what a great education does a woman 🙂 )
No decent guy in his right mind to going to step into that mess.
Tough biological lesson learned imo…
Again, as mentioned when a woman say she does not want children – there is a specific reason.
@Perspective “but I refer mostly to those who are married and did not partake in lifestyles with practices such as “sex/pregnancy to trap a man.”
My career is in the medical field. I personally know many MD’s, RN’s, and such in the medical field. Many of the educated medical professionals have had experienced out of wed-lock “coercement” despite the level of education, age, and low failure rate of contraception.
Re how many women really don’t want children, over their entire lives:
In Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s excellent “Creating A Life”, of the childless women earning over $100,000 a year, only 14% of them had definitely always wanted to avoid having any children. The rest were largely regretful.
Agreed completely that marriage is a poor, poor idea for any man, religious or not, with the sole exception of one who is CERTAIN he wishes to have children WITH THAT SPECIFIC WOMAN. I’m on my 2nd marriage, and absolutely would not have remarried but for wanting children. (I’ve just turned 52, and my children are toddlers. My wife is near my age. We went the fertility clinic/ egg donor/IVF/gestational surrogate path.)
For the “I just know God will send me to Hell if I have sex outside of marriage, and I HAVE to have sex or I’ll just die” crowd, here is my answer:
1) understand that the marriage the Bible tells us to get is no longer an option, and who can be castigated for not obtaining the unavailable?
2) Alternatively, find a woman with whom you can have just a religious ceremony, with NO marriage license/registration with the state (and NO children, probably). You’re covered religiously, and as long as you don’t cohabitate in common-law-marriage recognizing state AND don’t have children, you aren’t vulnerable to divorce court prison rape.
This is just getting silly. Plenty of people (men AND women) do not wish to become parents for a variety of reasons. Anyone who suggests that…
… is simply delusional. That number means literally 1-in-a-BILLION. Rounding up, that’s four women on the entire planet, and since I’m married to one of them, that means there are only three left. Absurd. While I concede that most women will eventually want children; the idea that you can literally count all the voluntarily nulliparous women on the entire planet on the fingers of one hand just means somebody has yet to master Google searches.
Really… just freaking look it up. This link gives a list of links to some Child Free By Choice (CFBC) websites. http://www.childfree.net/websites.html, and there are plenty of others. Shoot, there are plenty of cities and towns in the U.S. alone with CBFC clubs where child-free adults go to get away from parents and their incessant chatter about their children and grandchildren.
According to to the scholarly “American Demographics,” about 19% of women between the ages of 40 and 44 has never given birth. Obviously such women are at or near the end of their childbearing years and so very few will go on the have children. In this day of 100% female reproductive freedom, that can only mean that a pretty large group of women simply don’t want kids and never did. Since these women tend to be wealthier and more highly educated than average, PLUS (as women) they hold all the cards – it is simply inconceivable (okay… pun intended) that ALL of them are either infertile or nuns.
What’s more: females make up the bulk of the CFBC community on the internet. The odds of an adult American woman being CFBC her entire life are almost the exact same odds as an American bride being a virgin: roughly 1-in-5.
As for the Hopeful’s question, “If she’s religious, wouldn’t she want children? Is it possible to be deeply religious (I’m meaning specifically Christian here, Biblically so) and not want children? Maybe I missed something.”
The two have little to do with each other. In the Bible, God said “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the Earth” exactly twice, and Hebrew scholars debate whether it was meant as a blessing rather than as a command. Either way, it appears once when the human population was two – the other time was right after the flood and the population was eight. That appears to have been successfully completed – there is no reason to think it still applies.
@Lyn87
Amen to that! Thank you for the excellent and very informative post:)
@Lyn87 – “there is no reason to think it still applies.”
Lol… When dealing with women, reason does not apply.
Since you quoted scripted, here are a couple of my personal favorites regarding baby rabies and hypoagency:
~When Rachel saw that she was not bearing Jacob any children, she became jealous of her sister. So she said to Jacob, “Give me children, or I’ll die!” Gen 30:1
~Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said……Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my slave in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me.”
~She was deeply distressed and prayed to the Lord and wept bitterly. 1 Sam 1:10
Regarding “If she’s religious, wouldn’t she want children”. Depends on your perspective.
From a Jewish perspective, it is shameful to remain childless.
From a New Covenant perspective – Paul wrote shared some wonderful insightful on this topic (1 Cor 7 & 1 Timothy 5). He wished everyone could be like him but if not gave concessions “since it was better to marry than burn with lust as well as “But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.”
Btw, there is a broad documented history of Catholic nuns over the centuries who has avowed to chastity and hence childless.
“According to to the scholarly “American Demographics,” about 19% of women between the ages of 40 and 44 has never given birth.”
Again what is the reason ?
Is it out of deliberate choice, lack of marriage suitors, or self inflicted sexual / birth control at a early age etc ? What is the cause ? (ie LOL – where are all the good men ? )
Do you have ANY statistics that show the cause ??????
The premise to your arguments are on thin ice that is cracking 🙂
Btw, for future reference- if you are going to get into a scriptural argument with a Jew. Its a good idea to reference your reason with scripture (ie “That appears to have been successfully completed – there is no reason to think it still applies.”). You reasoning is incorrect – “Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end”.
The infinite G_D will have a infinite increasing family.
To man he gave dominion and to woman fruitfulness and YHWH has created them in HIS image to be one.
~Shalom
Btw, here is are couple of verses to put a nail in the coffin of ” That appears to have been successfully completed – there is no reason to think it still applies.”
~”His righteous acts will be told to those not yet born. They will hear about everything he has done.” Psalm 22:31
~And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” Gen 3:15
The divine fiat in Gen 1:28 is eternal and is irrevocable.
Perspective
I never heard of those types before but I think that is where you find your place to meet and greet. Lyn87 has done us right.
@Michael: “I sometimes wonder if these women are bothered by it.”
Yes, some are. I know a few, but it doesn’t matter. If they were young again, they would do it all over again, because they would have all the attention of a movie star from the gorgeous alphas, and it is too hard to resist, unless they were not that way to begin with.
The day a bunch of white man sit around and debate about what happens to a MAN’s body, I’ll say you are being oppressed
The day a man can’t get his boner pills without a government symposium, I’ll say you are being oppressed
The day you aren’t making a fair equal wage in any job field, I’ll say you are being oppressed
The day men start making government rules for your body, I’ll say you are being oppressed
The day you are raped and then held responsible for reporting your own rape, I’ll say you’re being oppressed. Even better if someone says “you were asking for it.”
The day you drink alcohol and are compromised by someone who preys on you, I’ll say you’re oppressed
The day you walk into a government building and your hygeine products are confiscated, I’ll say you’re being oppressed
The day a bunch of white women sit around talking about your penis, which they do not have,m
The day you can get pregnant, and then have a state decide that if you have a miscarriage, that you should be forced to wait 24 hours before you are given medical attention – even if you could die from bleeding, I’ll say you’re oppressed
The day you are judged for what you do to your body and what you wear, I’ll say you’re oppressed
Till that day, you’re not oppressed. There is no need for a male studies unit because you’ve not had your voice and image silenced for years. Your entire history is built on a group of men. You have no group of men making decisions about whether you can use Viagra; women who use birth control to prevent painful cysts in this uterus have been subject to days of debate by the government. If you’re 79 and want to pork someone, no problem! Your doctor signs you up for Viagra, no question asked.
You have rights that exist because you’re a male. I have no sympathy for your male rights. None at all.
“Yes, some are. I know a few, but it doesn’t matter. If they were young again, they would do it all over again, because they would have all the attention of a movie star from the gorgeous alphas, and it is too hard to resist, unless they were not that way to begin with.”
-I think you’re onto something. I sometimes wonder this too. I have heard a few 30+ unmarried women say things like “Knowing what I know now if I could have have done things differently I ____________ “. Something like that.
But then I think to myself, the only reason is because of the consequences from her age, and watching her options shrink (yet still lying to herself oblivious of how men actually feel/see her at 30 vs. even 25).
I think I bet if they could “go back” they would do the same thing. Except perhaps budget a little more time closer to the end of her sexual market value plunge around 30.
I have a story I would like to share which, coincidentally, reflects this very subject.
Nope says:
July 22, 2013 at 11:33 pm
“The day a bunch of white man sit around and debate about what happens to a MAN’s body, I’ll say you are being oppressed”
Better start saying it, or lose your status as a presumed-honest person. That’s exactly what men on men’s sites discuss when they’re talking about child support (where we’re forced to work to pay for a child whose birth we never agreed) and frivorce (where we’re forced to work to pay for a divorce to which we never agreed).
Today I was feeling in the zone. I asked out my clients front desk receptionist. She is 26 years old. She turns 27 in December.
She politely turned me down (all smiles which was nice) because she is “seeing someone”. Okay. That’s cool. I get it. I mean… I would not want you to say yes if you were seeing someone already, right?
Yes. She is attractive. But considering my income and connection to her boss she is not beyond my level. I would consider her a 7.5. I Googled her card and looked up her Facebook and her Boyfriends Facebook.
Well guess what.
Her “boyfriend” CAD Alpha male with hundreds of photos of him and other girls at parties on rented boats at clubs in vegas full on student loan credit card fueled lifestyle (unless he comes from money who knows) . I the guy is at least a nine looks wise. She is only a 7.5. There is no possible way this guy does not cheat on her. You cannot possibly look like him with all the social connections with hotter women than Kelly and think he would remain “faithful” enough to her to turn down girls like she did to me. According to HER Facebook page HE does NOT have “in a relationship with” only HERS has that listed “in a relationship with”. According to her Facebook she has been dating this guy 5 months. With pictures of him and her on vacation – you know the type of photos I’m talking about.
His Facebook and Linked In profile touts himself as a Marketing and Events promoter for the “youth lifestyle” “movement”. But I did extensive research and the guy just has an pop out website with clients logos as clients but nothing else! Like he just copy pasted them there passing them off as his clients! He is not mentioned in a single publicist article anywhere. Not a single one. I scoured the internet trying to see if he could be equal or more successful than me. But I can’t find anything except his website and twitter feeds, Facebook, Linked in etc. Things he can post. But nothing from a single third party source. Any “marketing and events promoter” of any significance would be listed on multiple trade show, expo ads etc. But there is nothing. It’s just a website copyright 2013.
In my opinion she turned me down because she wants to make it work with a guy who is clearly a CAD Alpha male – well beyond her looks wise, enjoying all the pirates booty the lifestyle with hundreds of girls arm in arm and dozens of places.
She turned me down, knowing I am a successful single attorney. 😦 She turned me down. The man who grosses $171,000.00 and is looking to get married to one women for the rest of my life and have a family. Instead she would rather say no because she is “seeing” a guy like that? I could understand if she was 18. But she is almost 27. Popping gum answering phones at the front desk for $11.50 hour is not a women who is on any career path. I would think she would recognize what I have to offer. Even if I made less than half!
Why don’t women GET IT ??????
She has 3 years and 5 months left until age THIRTY.
THIRTY
THIRTY
THIRTY
And instead of giving me a chance she would rather gamble (and lose) those last remaining years of her 20’s on another CAD Alpha player with HUNDREDS of party, club, vacation photos arm in arm posing DOZENS of girls many of whom are MORE ATTRACTIVE than her. Any man who is put into that situation cannot be faithful. He CANNOT be faithful. It is impossible. It is impossible.
Does she actually think she is going to “lasso” this man into some kind of a commitment now nearing 27 soon to be 30? Would have never guessed she was seeing a CAD Alpha male. She looks like a very nice sweet girl + attractive. She is only 26 turning 27 soon. It takes at least 2 years for a girl to get a marriage proposal these days. I am only slightly older and financially successful (high income, self practicing attorney, live alone on the beach,) . Her boss has been my client for 5 years and gets my bills. That is proof + reputation.
Why are these girls oblivious to what other women of the past (and in other countries) knew instinctively? How much time does she think she has to waste on the CAD Alpha Male king of the party? She is 26 years old. Soon to be 27. She doesn’t have time to be “seeing” this guy if she wants a husband and family. Yet that didn’t stop her from turning me down today.
The reason I worked so hard to become who I am is (in part) to prove myself to a girl like her. But even with her KNOWING who I am – I still cannot be the one shes picks until she turns 30 something? Loses her looks and pair bonding abilities? I would rather kill myself than marry a women in her 30’s .
I don’t I don’t know what I’m going to do if I can’t marry a good girl in her 20’s. I can’t believe this. 😦
‘
They don’t even realize it until it’s too late.
@Michael- be thankful she turned you down. Be thankful you didnt waste time, money, pick up a std, pick up a child support payment.
Given your situation – look outside and marry outside of the the USA.
@Michael:
I have to ask you, based on your description of your client’s receptionist: why the hell would you WANT this woman? Based on your description of her, she’s not only not anything really exceptional to look at, but she’s shallow, not very bright, and obviously a terrible judge of men. Seriously, is THAT the kind of woman you’re looking to mate with? You can do much better than that – although you’ll probably have to expatriate to Latin America or Asia to do it.
“Kelly” is really, truly beneath you. Let her continue to ride the CAD Alpha Male carousel and pay her not one more bit of attention. You’ll feel better about it in five years when she’s 32, desperate, used up, and dumped by Mr. CAD Alpha and all of his CAD Alpha pals he’s shared her with. Let some other schmuck be Mr. Beta Bucks on the starting path to divorce court.
Why don’t women GET IT ??????
Um, maybe because they’re women? I hope that question was intended as rhetorical.
@Nope “The day men start making government rules for your body, I’ll say you are being oppressed”
Are you referring to abortion ? Abortion outside of medical necessity is murder.
A woman who would murder her unborn child for the of the sake “convenience” to exercise her right to govern her body should let disclose “her right” to potential marriage suitors.
“The day you are judged for what you do to your body and what you wear, I’ll say you’re oppressed”
I suggest take “you ” take up your argument up with Islamic men who follow Sharia law. Let us know how that works out.
“The day you drink alcohol and are compromised by someone who preys on you, I’ll say you’re oppressed”
I beg to differ – sounds like a drinking problem coupled with promiscuous lifestyle (ie easy)
Btw, you forgot to mention “The 41% of women who have a child out of wedlock is oppressed”
Michael
Michael that is a sad story I don’t want to be my daughters story. I’m going to have to save that one for her she is 12 now. I guess freshmen in high school is a good time for her to see that. As an MRA I want that story told about as many woman as possible and I want all men to have the power to control their fertility to deny those women children.
As more women age out I see an artificial womb being made for old bitches to have children and with that a demand for “eggs” The younger versions of the old career women selling eggs to finance the ride on the cock carousel. Where we have thoughtful men here with concerns about men doing that “alone” something like that being done by career women will be seen as great. It will be so great that taxpayers will “help” women not as successful enjoy motherhood via an artificial womb.
You dodged a bullet on that one overall but not hard to do with red pill eyes. Nothing like a productive red pill men. The perfect husband for any mans daughter. A natural beta can be taught the red pill and game and will be a beta with game. ( the best man the country can produce) A natural PUA can never be beta and will always be a Cad. Biggest mistake a church can make is not red pill the Christian men and teach them game. You would be a perfect guy for a surrogate to father hood type. You are looking for a wife to make a family. Save your self the hassle and use a surrogate. Train yourself with a doll to get into the rhythm of the hrs you will work to care for your child. Any losses you think you will suffer will be more than made back ten fold. If you made a million dollars a day what would you buy with your money. God works magic on a mans heart and soul with his child. When your child looks at you with those eyes and you will know it when you see it is soothing to the soul. I couldn’t make enough money, drink enough alcohol, do enough drugs, or fuck a pretty enough girl that compares to taking care of your own child. Welmer Price over at the spearhead describes his time with his kids well.
Mikeslinger,
You’re simply wrong and I’ll show you why:
Your references to Rachel, Sarah, and Hannah are anecdotes. Three women wanted babies. Since I stipulated that the vast majority of women want babies, the fact that you could come up with three examples means exactly nothing. The fact that childlessness is shameful in Hebrew culture is cultural – not Biblical (which is what “hopeful” asked). The has nothing to do with why so many modern Gentile women choose to remain childless.
Your references to Paul say nothing about women who choose to remain childless, so what you wrote is completely off-topic. Then you mentioned nuns, who are voluntarily childless – that actually undermines your point.
You took issue with the statistic I quoted from the scholarly journal “American Demographics,” but only offered your unsupported speculation about why one woman in five remains childless. Considering that any woman with an functioning uterus can have a child in this day and age – and be supported by the state – the fact that so many do not should be a big clue that they are simply choosing not to for a variety of reasons. If you look up some of the links I posted you will see LOTS of reasons women make that choice. We may or may not know all the reasons why each individual woman chooses not to bear children, but we are simply beyond the point where you can deny that the practice itself is fairly common.
BTW, for YOUR future reference, if you are going to get into a scriptural argument with a Bible scholar, you saying, “I’m a Jew” isn’t going to make me concede your point. And your reference to, “Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end” is also off-point, since it refers to the Kingdom of God and does not contain any individual commands.
Your “nails in the coffin” are only in the coffin of your argument, by the way, since both scriptures refer to Jesus and the fact that you are a Jew (I’m assuming you mean religiously Jewish and not just ethnically Jewish) means that you don’t acknowledge that. Psalm 22:31 refers to Jesus, and has nothing to do with bearing children. Likewise Genesis 3:15 is God’s curse on Satan and how Jesus will destroy his work, and also has nothing to do with bearing children.
The divine fiat in Gen 1:28 was directed to specific people in a specific time for a specific purpose, and there is no indication that it applies to everyone at all times under all circumstances.
@Lyn87
Didn’t you hear Michael say “This cannot be denied.”, a phrase uttered by him after spouting nonsense backed up by nothing but anecdotal evidence? You come in here with your scary womanly intelligence and think that facts and evidence can be used to deny that which cannot be denied.
It was, to their credit, that the Christians, by inventing Monasteries and Convents allowed those who preferred celibacy to matrimony to avoid reproducing. The love of God was the greater motivation. What is the greater motivation now other than promiscuity, free-loading, and self-centeredness?
There seems to be (as I indicated somewhere above) some essential lack of humanity in those who attempt to justify their unwillingness to reproduce on the grounds of choice – choice being one of the great curses of our times. It reminds me of one married woman whom I know of (as she used to visit my friend for extra-curricula sex) and who had had her uterus removed – and for no medically compelling reason, and whilst still in her twenties. This same woman was soon making a false rape allegation against my friend – which happily came to other nothing – but it was all of a piece with her nuttiness, I tend to think.
I am surprised that Lyn 87 who elsewhere is the height of common-sense and learning should be espousing childlessness, and I must say that (the new to me) groups opposed to reproduction seem to me to be rather like the Atheist groups – that is to say just as the Atheist groups say they don’t believe in God but one suspects that secretly do but prefer to hate him, (why else do they go on about him so much) so the childfree groups one feels are – far from being indifferent to children – antagonistic because children will cramp their style. This is just one step on from the women who age 38 or 43 produces a Trophy Child and then revert to their corporate cubicle, or as might have happened even in my lifetime, send their child off to a boarding school at the earliest possible age whilst claiming that dumping their child in a child-farming dormitory is the kindest thing they can do and thus at the same time redeeming themselves – whilst playing the part of victim – of the burden of Motherhood.
You will all of course say that I am a hypocrite as I am without issue, and am not a believer.
@ Nope…..re: July 22, 2013 @ 11:33 pm
“The day a bunch of white man sit around and debate about what happens to a MAN’s body, I’ll say you are being oppressed”
Response: White men sitting in robes sit around and debate what happens to a man’s body all the time. In family court, men are forced to pay alimony to ex-wives against their will. They are also held to earn at high levels into the future, again against their will. That sounds an awful lot like slavery to me.
“The day a man can’t get his boner pills without a government symposium, I’ll say you are being oppressed”
Response: I’m not sure what you are comparing this to, perhaps the ‘morning after’ pill? In any event, the pill we CANNOT get is a male birth control pill. That would go against Feminist interests if our gender held those cards.
“The day you aren’t making a fair equal wage in any job field, I’ll say you are being oppressed”
Response: Your gender has tilted the playing field to your advantage so that the LAST person anyone would like to hire (who has to follow ‘Affirmative Action’ legislation) is an able-bodied, Caucasian, heterosexual man. Let us not forget whose gender suffered the most job losses in the 2008-2009 economy disintegration.
“The day men start making government rules for your body, I’ll say you are being oppressed”
Response: In addition to my first response, in most states, a man CANNOT get a vasectomy without the consent of his wife. This is classic hypocrisy by the oppressive class…..females. “My body, My choice….Your body, No choice!”
“The day you are raped and then held responsible for reporting your own rape, I’ll say you’re being oppressed. Even better if someone says “you were asking for it.””
Response: You are coming across as incoherent. Let’s level the playing field, on college campuses across the country a woman can get drunk, consent to sex, sober up, and then claim rape the next day.
Essentially, she can change her mind after sex. Male students accused of such a charge by the college/university are NOT entitled to legal counsel. It is essentially a ‘he said, she said’…….where her word is accepted as gospel and his is put in a trash can.
In the reverse scenario, a minor man (under 18) who was statutory raped by his 29 year old female teacher was still found culpable to pay child support for the child they produced. (This is even though she was CHARGED & found GUILTY!)
“The day you drink alcohol and are compromised by someone who preys on you, I’ll say you’re oppressed”
Response: There is such a case on file where a drunk man was raped against his will by a woman acquaintance. She bore a child, stuck him with child support…….and admitted to doing ALL of this. No charges levied, or taken seriously. Honestly……read Helen Smith’s new book “Men on Strike”
“The day you walk into a government building and your hygeine products are confiscated, I’ll say you’re being oppressed”
Response: Grow Up! Any time I travel I am frisked, groped, & have to hand over shampoo, conditioner, lip baum, etc.
“The day a bunch of white women sit around talking about your penis, which they do not have,m”
Response: You trailed off there……anyway, your incoherence is growing. You seem to think that white men sit around talking about vaginas. I can’t say I’ve ever had such a discussion.
“The day you can get pregnant, and then have a state decide that if you have a miscarriage, that you should be forced to wait 24 hours before you are given medical attention – even if you could die from bleeding, I’ll say you’re oppressed.”
Response: Men can’t get pregnant. So apparently, you are saying that medical attention will NOT be forthcoming if you are bleeding out. I won’t dismiss it out of hand, but I do find it difficult to believe. If this is truth, then yes……..this is a terrible wrong.
“The day you are judged for what you do to your body and what you wear, I’ll say you’re oppressed.”
Response: We are ALL judged for what we wear, & what we do to our bodies. This is true from wearing a ‘speedo’ to getting ‘tattoos’. I assume your real beef is that you don’t want women to be judged for having an abortion? The law is currently & clearly on your side right now, but don’t expect others to necessarily agree that ‘abortion’ is a sane & rational choice for birth control.
““Till that day, you’re not oppressed. There is no need for a male studies unit because you’ve not had your voice and image silenced for years. Your entire history is built on a group of men. You have no group of men making decisions about whether you can use Viagra; women who use birth control to prevent painful cysts in this uterus have been subject to days of debate by the government. If you’re 79 and want to pork someone, no problem! Your doctor signs you up for Viagra, no question asked.”
Response: Correct, our voices have NOT been silenced for thousands of years…….just the last 40 or so. You seem to feel that by exacting retribution on the current cohort of men, that it ‘evens’ the score. Are you honestly trying to tell me that birth control is NOT readily available to women?
You seem to have much anger around men & sex. I’d guess you’ve suffered some sort or cruelty or abuse in your life, and if so…….I empathize for you.
“There is no need for a male studies unit because you’ve not had your voice and image silenced for years.”
Response: The age old cry of the ‘Oppressor’.
You have rights that exist because you’re a male. I have no sympathy for your male rights. None at all.
Response: I have no doubt you hold no sympathy for either men, or men’s rights.
It is difficult to respond to writing so incoherent and scatter-gun as Nope provides, and until she writes something somewhat clearer in support of what I take to be, her female supremacist position, any response is surely pointless. We should not have to guess, as Casey vainly and bravely attempts to do above, what it is she is trying to say. Doubtless we will wait in vain. I will refrain from interrogatories to elicit her meaning.
Michael, I always found playing mixed sports the best way to meet “marriageable” women. They are fit, into a healthy lifestyle, and you have a reason to talk to them. Not saying that Riders do not play sports, of course they do, but a lot of honest, good looking, mate appreciative woman seem to gravitate to mixed sports in my opinion.
@ Sarcasm,
While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I am definitely NOT a woman. I am, however, married to one.
@ Opus,
If you think that I am “advocating childlessness” then you’re inferring something I have frequently made an effort to NOT imply. My wife and I are Child Free By Choice (and By Biology – but that’s secondary). I willingly admit that I’m a freak of nature – and my CFBC attitude is part of who I am. That switch has just never been turned on in my head. Sometimes there’s a fine line between genius and madness, and I have come to accept my numerous (and sometimes humiliating) quirks as the flip side of my prodigious gifts. I don’t say that with any sort of pride – I have no more control of my I.Q. than I do over my height or my eye color… I’m an extreme outlier and that is just how God made me. There are traits that I just don’t possess, and the paternal instinct is one of them. I don’t advocate childlessness in general, and while I recognize that CBFC is certainly not for everyone (or even most people), for a not-insignificant minority of men and women, it fits who were are.
I’ve heard all the arguments against CFBC. There’s even a little game called “Breeder Bingo” (http://whynokids.com/advice-tips/breeder-bingo/). Take a look: the shaming language aimed at CBFC people to “Parent up” is eerily similar to the shaming tactics aimed at men to “Man up.”
I’ll admit that a lot of CBFC people approach it from angles I don’t share. There is a lot of anti-Christian hostility in the CFBC crowd, as there is in the MRA crowd (try telling men to be sexually responsible or say something critical of “game” as a means of getting drunk coeds into bed and you’ll see what I mean). The amount of atheism and child-hatred in the CFBC movement reflects poorly on the movement in my estimation, like the amount of reflexive anti-Christianity and woman hatred the crops up in the MRA from time to time. (For example: I hate feminism – but I don’t hate women, and I know that men are capable of evil and women are capable of good. I think the vast majority of MRAs are reasonable men and would agree with that, but certainly not all.) In both movements I try to sift the worthwhile from the dross.
@ Michael
I’m sorry for your pain around this ‘Kelly’ girl.
She doesn’t get ‘it’ because she is 26, and male attention & sex has always been readily available. The import into her hamster mind is that it will ALWAYS be available.
She will drive as fast as she can right at that ‘wall’…….and hit the ejector seat button right around age 33 – 35.
This is where YOU are supposed to come in; to give her the life she now knows she’s always wanted, now that she has sampled a buffet of cocks.
You are to give her the cream of your abundance, while at the same time the cream she offers you has curdled.
Forget this woman; she is nothing but a cautionary tale for this website.
Lyn87 this is maybe going to sound bad but I think that CFBC group would be a gold mine for a MGTOW type to mine pussy no pun intended. Too many guys trying live by rules of a civilized society.
Greyghost – no argument from me. Within the CFBC community there are a lot of amoral women who are hyper-scrupulous about their birth control. A man would not encounter many marriageable women there, but then again, there are not that many marriageable women anywhere (and either way it wouldn’t matter to an MGTOW guy). At least a guy wouldn’t be likely to end up in debtor’s prison for non-payment of child support.
@GG-July 22
“Perspective
I never heard of those types before but I think that is where you find your place [CFBC group] to meet and greet. Lyn87 has done us right.”
@GG-July 23
“Lyn87 this is maybe going to sound bad but I think that CFBC group would be a gold mine for a MGTOW type to mine pussy no pun intended. Too many guys trying live by rules of a civilized society.”
@Lyn87(In response to GG comment above) –” no argument from me. Within the CFBC community there are a lot of amoral women who are hyper-scrupulous about their birth control. A man would not encounter many marriageable women there, but then again, there are not that many marriageable women anywhere (and either way it wouldn’t matter to an MGTOW guy). At least a guy wouldn’t be likely to end up in debtor’s prison for non-payment of child support.”
Grey, not sure if you were serious about your suggestion in your above comment to me on July 22 about using the CFBC groups as a meet and greet, but based on your assessment in your comment above to Lyn87 on July 23, on how you feel CFBC groups would be a “gold mine for MGTOW type to mine pussy,” I really don’t think that would be a suitable place for me or any other marriage-minded gal to look for a potential spouse. Thanks anyways though.
Perspective,
I think greyghost was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. I was. I’ve never been to a meeting of CFBC people, although they have them near where I live. I just never saw the point of going to a meeting with people based on the single commonality of not wanting kids. Having said that, there are Christian CFBC guys (I’m living proof) out there. My wife and I met through a Christian dating service in the pre-internet days. Maybe you ought to consider that, keeping in mind that people can say anything about themselves – that doesn’t mean they’ll meet your legitimate criteria.
I have utmost respect for men who have a religious marriage, but legal marriage is government sanctioned slavery for men.
Why? Imagine a virgin woman who married at 21. Here is her progression:
-21/25 years old. Condition: Fresh
Thanks to her virginity and some game, she is totally hot for her husband, though shit tests him from time to time because she is jealous of her cock carouselling and butthexting friends. Her occasional temper tantrums and mind games are still worth it because she is in her sexual prime.
-26/35 yr old. Condition: Stale
Now that it has been 4 years, she has lost her attraction to her husband (Dr Helen Fisher discovered that women run out of attraction chemicals in their brains after around 4 years and then seek a new man. Can’t remember the link though). Thus, she needs a lot more game for her hypergamous impulses to be kept in check. She believes she can do better than the current slob she has and cheats on her husband a few times before she runs out of her sexual currency. Occasionally uses sex as a weapon to get her way.
-36/45 yr old. Condition: Trash
As a result of her cheating, she cuckolds her husband with a child who is not his, of course he doesn’t know what’s going on. She is very bitter towards her husband because she “wasted her youth” on him. She is getting increasingly insecure because of rapidly losing her beauty as a result of age and giving birth. Still, she is still fuckable in a dark room if her husband visualizes her as someone else. Possibly divorces her husband, uses the child as a hostage and takes his livelihood.
-46+ years old. Condition: Toxic Waste
“I can’t really tell you how to be happy but I can fucking tell you how to be unhappy. Have a 55 year old wife. That’s how.” – Mark Minter
Having completely lost her womanhood, she has become a “non-man”. Turns into a raging harpy and makes his husband miserable, who continually stone-walls her. Shortly thereafter, her husband dies of cancer and she gets some cats to replace him.
What can a wife really offer her husband? The differences between sexes is vast.
-A woman’s SMV continually decreases, whereas a man’s SMV continually increases.
-Due to their solipsism/hypergamy, women can never be content and always desire more.
-Women can not understand cause-effect, lack foresight, lack accountability and are less intelligent overall. (or equally intelligent but can’t benefit from their wits because of their emotions).
-Women become more bitchy/insecure as they age and give birth.
Can a woman tell me, what does she actually have of value to offer? She will still turn into a hideous parasite. (or a masculine butch if she works and earns more than her hubby thanks to affirmative action)
My fav comment from the manosphere:
“Because if hypergamy catches foothold, it is the end of the human female’s “right” to be worshipped for her innate superiority. Contrarily, it is the very reason she is no better than a male “pig.” The human female will now be known for the selfish fucking whore she always was.”
Legal marriage is worthless. Women would also be worthless if not for their wombs. However, as a result of VR sex/sexbots, and artificial wombs, women in future will become:
I R R E V E L A N T
Wrong answer Perspective. Those men that are there are in an exclusive community that is child free. Today is the first time I heard of that. For a woman that doesn’t want children That would be the perfect place. Relax and enjoy the lust lady. If you meet a man that is sexually excited by you and speaks don’t let what some anonymous guy on the internet (that would be me greyghost there) keep you from that motivate dick. Go out there and be sexy and get you that dick like you need to. A blue pill chuchian learning about game and the nature of women is not going to leave the church and become a PUA or player if anything he will be Christian with gina tingle. As said above You allowing yourself to be the sexual being you need to be will be the snow balls chance in hell line that you will be a slut. Right now you should be on one of those sight getting to know those type of men (don’t be in there debating and shit talking about goodness and marriage) go in there to discover ways to be pleasing and enjoyable. And don’t forget to let them know what is enjoyable and tingling for you. You need to be there with one hand on the keyboard and one hand working your tickle spot. (Please god don’t let her ask to explain tickle spot on Dalrock’s blog) You need to get you some of those orgasm’s . And practice talking sexy, you are likable for some reason and I would hate to see that waste away with you trying to not be a slut or seen as a proper lady. Don’t worry about it. You can start off by post up the most effective way for you to be brought to orgasm. If you can do that you will be married in a year and liking it. Nothing is more attractive in a woman that a proper lady that is a nympho in private. Being a chef helps and remember only one word from the bible “helper” That frigid tight wad stuff is working There is not a chance of you being a slut Now get sexy and like it.
PS some of Dalrocks millions of readers are perves and are really looking forward to hearing from you. I know I am.
Lyn87
Sometimes I find you need to forget all of the stiff images and be human and enjoy life. A relaxed sense of humor will help see the joy in the world.
@ Greyghost
I’m not comfortable with a surrogate. I feel its’ morally incorrect. It also feels like a self confirming affirmation I’m inferior in some way. I want a wife. Just like men have had the right to for thousands of years.
@Lyn87
“The has nothing to do with why so many modern Gentile women choose to remain childless.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
Last time I checked the “entire world” population is growing.
Interestingly enough – in vitro has been increasing
Hammond, P., et al. (2009) In vitro fertilization availability and utilization in the United States:A study of demographic social, and economic factors: 1630-1635.
“Then you mentioned nuns, who are voluntarily childless – that actually undermines your point”
You miss the subtlety of the comparison.
How many women enter in nunnery (miniscule) ?
How many American women choose to live of chastity (miniscule) ? LOL 🙂
The Apostle Paul chose a life chastity not childlessness -vast difference as Opus pointed out.
Btw, he had Timothy “as a son in the faith” indicating spiritual fatherhood.
“directed to specific people in a specific time”
Sorry but I dont see a statue of limitations on this.
The commandments of G_D are eternal. Paul pointed this out in 1 Tim 1:8 “We know that the law is good if one uses it properly” . In addition, Yahshua came to fulfill the law not dismiss it. Every single foundational covenant is built upon and amplified and never dismissed. If that is the case then the covenant to Abraham to make his “seed as numerous as the stars” would be void.
Btw, the last time I checked the universe and stars are increasing 🙂
G_Ds Kingdom will be increasing and there will be babies:)
“No longer will babies die when only a few days old” – Is 65:20
“childlessness is shameful in Hebrew culture is cultural – not Biblical ”
Last time I checked the entire bible was written by Jews (Luke is unknown).
Christianity is a Jewish religion.
Its a good idea to remember who the children are and who is the goi grafted in.
“you will see LOTS of reasons women make that choice” & “American Demographics,” about 19% of women between the ages of 40 and 44 has never given birth”
Here is link that you referenced.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/06/25/childlessness-up-among-all-women-down-among-women-with-advanced-degrees/
– Again what is the reason ?
– It does sight “reasonable speculation” but not captured.
Here are the bigger questions that are avoided and are not captured in the data:
– Fertility ? (this is a big deal for women > 30)
– How many childless women are divorced (Divorce rate is up in 1st to 3rd )
– How many childless women are married
– How many childless women had abortions ?
Again, the studies showed the result BUT not the reason – get it ??
Page 7 from this study gave the stats but not the reason
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_025.pdf
Fertility in women SHARPLY decrease over the age of 30 – cannot be denied 🙂
Given that most educated/professional women put off marriage and childbirth to their 30’s/40’s after decades of contraception and possible abortion (cant have the birth of a child interfere with my career path or suffer a child out of wedlock) have shot them self in their right foot and their left leaving them without husbands and without children.
That is a bitter pill.
Btw, I am ethnically a Jew (last name “Singer”) and Disciple of Yahshua. Remember, the original ecclesia were orthodox Jews ?
~Shalom
@Lyn87 “The has nothing to do with why so many modern Gentile women choose to remain childless.”
Btw, by “modern Gentile women” is it fair to assume: educated, age greater than 30, sexually active /promiscuous, birth control etc ?
Please permit me to ask a obvious question:
Is there any time in history that shows women “choosing to remain childless” ?
WEEKLY SPINSTER REPORT:
Coming to you live from the white women Spinster capital of the USA – Los Angeles, CA.
This report is not of a Spinster however it reflects on what is commonly discussed on this site. Less than 15 minutes ago I was hit on be a FAT FIVE , Otherwise known in LA as a “confident five” in the downstairs lobby.
Let’s review shall we?
ME:
5’11 – 6’0ft fit physical condition between a 7.0-8.0 (depending on what a women prefers) self practicing/self employed attorney net $171,000.00 2012 lives directly on the beach. and “DDD” (Disease Drug Drama Free as they say) Car? Land Rover. Debt? Debt Free.
HER:
20-30 pounds overweight OR a naturally big boned with fat (can’t tell which) overly confident FIVE whose ass doubles as a thick seat cushin. Face is prettier than body but still slightly above average at best. Her rating? FIVE. Other guys might even mark her as a 3 or 4. Which is probably more accurate. Her only redeeming quality? She was under 30. Perhaps 26,27 or 28.
Yet she had no problem sizing me up and approaching me first. Making conversation, asking what I do, introducing herself with a “I can get you” stare. Then finally complementing me on my bright yellow tie when I laxed off the conversation as she left.
You see gentlemen: These women have no problem gaming YOU when they see something they want.
Dear G-d:
Next time a women approaches me, please, I pray, please send me a girl who is at least or above my overall equal level when taking into account my all my pluses and minuses. I understand I’m being sent spinsters and confident fives. It’s almost kind of amusing, in a way. I know the Lord has a sense of humor. I deserve my punishment, as I am a sinner and imperfect, or perhaps have grievously sinned, and deserve to be approached by confident fives and Spinsters, when the real women I want to marry (based on her appearance) turns up her nose or shows no interest in me. Perhaps this is favor, for an even worse punishment. If so, I thank you for your mercy and beg you for forgiveness. Please Lord, I don’t want to be alone the rest of my life. I would like to get married; and it only takes one women. In closing, please forgive my sins for whatever I have done if aware or unaware. Amen..
@Michael,
The way you describe these women is funny. You should have a blog (if you don’t already. If you do, I’d like to read it). Are these white women that are regularly approaching you?
@Michael “please send me a girl who is at least or above my overall equal level”
Allow me to suggest G_D is answering your prayers.
Keep in mind the older you get – the more valuable you become. That is opposite for a woman.
This is great news !
Even at the age of 35 (my favorite age) you can “easily” wed 8-12 years younger on a 8-10 scale.
Lets see a equally aged 35 year old woman do that 🙂
@ Michael
I know this much to be true: Women can SMELL desperation.
If you could not give a crap about women in general, as you do this FAT FIVE…….it may nullify that desperation that 7 & up women sense.
@GG
“Relax and enjoy the lust lady. If you meet a man that is sexually excited by you and speaks don’t let what some anonymous guy on the internet (that would be me greyghost there) keep you from that motivate dick. Go out there and be sexy and get you that dick like you need to. ”
Grey, I know your aim is to provide some advice, but a lot of the words you use are rather explicit and I’m not comfortable being addressed that way. I would really appreciate if you could provide advice without the salaciousness.
Your statement, “don’t let what some anonymous guy on the internet (that would be me greyghost there) keep you from that motivate dick. Go out there and be sexy and get you that dick like you need to.”
What exactly do you mean by this? I’m looking for a human being(male) to share my life with, not a piece of anatomy.
“A blue pill chuchian learning about game and the nature of women is not going to leave the church and become a PUA or player if anything he will be Christian with gina tingle.”
Sorry, don’t really understand the above statement either.
“As said above You allowing yourself to be the sexual being you need to be will be the snow balls chance in hell line that you will be a slut.”
Again, please bear with me, but what exactly are you trying to say in the above statement?
“Right now you should be on one of those sight getting to know those type of men (don’t be in there debating and shit talking about goodness and marriage) go in there to discover ways to be pleasing and enjoyable.”
Why would I be “shit talking” about goodness and marriage, when I’m completely for those things?
“And don’t forget to let them know what is enjoyable and tingling for you. You need to be there with one hand on the keyboard and one hand working your tickle spot. (Please god don’t let her ask to explain tickle spot on Dalrock’s blog)”
Ain’t gonna happen. I’m respectful and intend to keep it that way.
“And practice talking sexy, you are likable for some reason and I would hate to see that waste away with you trying to not be a slut or seen as a proper lady.”
Why would I need to “practice talking sexy?” Isn’t it enough to be friendly and pleasant? What’s wrong with being a “proper lady” and NOT wanting to be seen as a slut, especially when I’m NOT one?
“Don’t worry about it. You can start off by post up the most effective way for you to be brought to orgasm.”
Again, no way Jose, ain’t gonna happen.
“That frigid tight wad stuff is working There is not a chance of you being a slut Now get sexy and like it.”
What do you mean, “that frigid tight wad stuff is working?” Working with what?
“There is not a chance of you being a slut”
I don’t know, I’m thinking if I were to take your advice about posting explicit things online with total strangers (which again, I will NOT do) might have the recipient of such posts thinking otherwise.
“PS some of Dalrocks millions of readers are perves and are really looking forward to hearing from you. I know I am.”
Sorry to disappoint, but not gonna happen. This ain’t no 50 shades of Grey. And no, I haven’t and will not read it.
@GG
“There is not a chance of you being a slut”
In response to the above by Greyghost, I meant to write,
No, there’s not a chance, but I’m thinking if I were to take your advice about posting explicit things online with total strangers (which again, I will NOT do) might have the recipient of such posts thinking otherwise.
Michael
I wouldn’t go the surrogate route in your place either. You seem like you still think you will find someone. Just a suggestion for a man that has a need and desire for a child. I wouldn’t worry too much about that mother stuff. Next time you see a woman based on appearance just walk up to her and tell her “based on physical appearance alone you would make a great wife. I would love to see if the character of such a woman would make a great wife” Just come out and say so. see what happens.
I saw the hint of a sense of humor coming out in your perspective. You’re almost there, I bet somebody here will email Dalrock and ask him to email you some contact information. One more good advice from greyghost don’t text over a tit shot or something silly like that, That kind of thing will never go away and will make you look bad.
I have learned something from this exchange. To have the man you want you have to explore what his needs and wants are. Flirt a little and speak of the things you want. (goodness and marriage) Give reason to see to it your needs are met. Nothing wrong with a woman doing what it takes for her man.
You are a little rebellious and have it dressed up as being proper. You will be in your forties having this same conversation. Describe a good date with a man. And no dirtiness but none of that stiff setting stuff either. Put in some emotion and how you would feel from the sound of his voice or how the hand felt when you touched with a hand shake at the opening greeting.
Casey @ Michael:
@ Michael
I know this much to be true: Women can SMELL desperation.
If you could not give a crap about women in general, as you do this FAT FIVE…….it may nullify that desperation that 7 & up women sense.
Casey has nailed it. You’ll have to work on “turning off” the “desperation scent.” One of the most effective ways to do this for a man in your position is to adopt what is basically a “fuck-it-I-really-don’t-give-a-shit” attitude where women are concerned. Seriously, just act as if you’re just not interested at all. Remember that woman crave power over men, and men ignoring them drives them NUTS. Even I (who wears a WEDDING RING, fer cryin’ out loud!), an average-looking (at best) middle-aged guy gets attention from women ten to fifteen years my junior – 7s and 8s at that. Just by showing not the slightest bit of interest in them.
Try it. You’ll be surprised at how well it works.
@ Hopeful
These are women I regularly come into contact with on a weekly basis out and about in the good areas of LA. Most of them are Spinsters and confident fives. With an occasional single mother. I wish I had time for a blog lol. It’s not just me, but other guys here too. There are just so many people crammed into such a small area.
@ mike singer
Thank you for the encouraging words. I need them. Thank you! Every time a spinster or confident five breeches my personal space I leave feeling like someone took the wind out of my sails.
@ Casey
You’ve confirmed my worst fears. I can see no other reasonable explanation. Other than some sixth sense. I do want someone. I hope that does not come off as desperate. But maybe women are so intuitively sensitive they see it that way. I can’t just forget I like women. I can’t turn off the faucet of lust.
@Michael – Good article worth reading
http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2012/02/observations-on-american-women.html
@GG
“One more good advice from greyghost don’t text over a tit shot or something silly like that, That kind of thing will never go away and will make you look bad.”
Although I’ve already very clearly expressed that I would never partake in any kinds of stunts or shenanigans as such, (and I think you know this, so if I didn’t know any better it would almost seem like this warning came from a place of sh#ts and giggles, though I could be wrong so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt) just for the record, you can be assured that no “tit shots or something silly like that” will ever be texted from me to anyone else.
“I have learned something from this exchange. To have the man you want you have to explore what his needs and wants are. Flirt a little and speak of the things you want. (goodness and marriage) Give reason to see to it your needs are met. Nothing wrong with a woman doing what it takes for her man.”
I agree it’s important to talk about needs and wants, but if you’re referring to sexual needs and wants, then I don’t think it would be appropriate to speak of that when me and a potential mate are first getting to know one another. I would think that after a commitment to engagement has been made would be a more suitable time to bring that up.
“You are a little rebellious and have it dressed up as being proper. You will be in your forties
having this same conversation.”
I really am intrigued and wondering what exactly it is about me that makes you say I’m “a little rebellious and have it dressed up as being proper.” If you could give me some examples that would be great. Also wondering why you think I’ll be having this conversation in my 40’s?
“Describe a good date with a man. And no dirtiness but none of that stiff setting stuff either.”
I’m obviously not going to include any “dirtiness,” (remember when you suggested in previous posts that I adopt a 50 shades of grayish persona to which I promptly objected to? No offense, but that just ain’t me.) I can however see how I might be perceived as “stiff.” I think I come across as guarded when I’m not sure of the guy’s (or really anyone’s) intentions. I guess it’s just a way to guard against potential hurt and embarrassment, and also to keep impropriety at bay. But when I do meet someone who I’d like to get know better, I am capable of more openness and approachability.
@lyn87
“I think greyghost was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. I was. I’ve never been to a meeting of CFBC people, although they have them near where I live. I just never saw the point of going to a meeting with people based on the single commonality of not wanting kids. Having said that, there are Christian CFBC guys (I’m living proof) out there. My wife and I met through a Christian dating service in the pre-internet days. Maybe you ought to consider that, keeping in mind that people can say anything about themselves – that doesn’t mean they’ll meet your legitimate criteria.”
Agreed and thanks for the advice.
You guys……you guys are really obsessed with all this stuff, aren’t you? Just wow. I mean, I’m pretty much the exact opposite of you all, but I don’t get riled up like ya’ll do. Ya all must spend yer life on this blog.
Also, one of you happily attacked me saying I have low standards and take in lots of schlong. Well, I haven’t been laid in many years, and that pretty much sucks. But that’s because my standards are really high. But the funny thing is, you attack me for having low standards, yet you all whine about women have unrealistically high standards. Make up your mind. You are acting like your typical indecisive woman!
And insult my job all you want. I’m not going for some ‘ology’ degree. I’m going for probation and parole.
I stumbled into this space about 2 weeks ago from Instapundit, and since then have been reading and thinking about a lot of what gets said here — much of it is 180 out from my personal experience (thank God!). Haven’t yet really decided where I come down on all of the discussion points.
For the moment, I just want to say that I think that men derive a lot of benefits from a marriage (I mean one that works) beyond sex or fatherhood, and that this receives too little emphasis in some of these discussions. For one thing, I think that wives can civilize men, and that a lot of us men need some of that. And I could say other things about the benefits, but the main thing is that we should avoid being reductionistic in talking about what we “get from” marriage.
This is for mikesinger who seems so eager to see some real statistics on the reasons for women not having children. Although I suspect he will somehow find a way to dismiss this information and continue believing his own lies. Just to be clear from the start, I did my research and came back here to discuss the subject of being childfree and will not respond to other issues because I don’t feel it’s worth my time. I’m doing this because of how grossly misrepresented childfree women are here and want to set the record straight.
The statistics are not readily available on the web, but there is an excellent book on the subject called ‘Kidfree and Lovin’ it!’. The author surveyed over 4000 people without children, whether by choice or by circumstance and continues to do so today, adding to the stats. As far as I know, it is the most comprehensive study of its kind.
She asked the question, “If you DON’T want children, what are your reasons you don’t?”, and these were the top responses.
84% I don’t have the urge or drive to be a parent
79% I would have to give up my lifestyle
72% It is financially restricting
69% I would have to restrict my sports, hobbies and/or travel
62% Overpopulation / I don’ think the world needs more people
55% I don’t particularly like kids
53% I don’t like the way kids are being raised today
The book then goes on to talk about each of these reasons in detail and includes quotes from people who responded to the survey.
“If I do have a biological clock, someone stole the batteries.”
“Maternal urge” was never really there for me like I sensed in almost everyone else!”
“I am wired wrong, I hear or see a baby, and feel repulsed and disgusted. A baby animal and I go weak and get all bubbly for it. That’s where my maternal instinct went.”
“Absolutely nothing that revolves around being a parent appeals to me. Just as women know from a young age that they’ve always wanted to be a mom and have however many children, there are women like me who know from a young age that they never wanted them. All the things I envision for myself and my future don’t involve kids.”
The list goes on and on, but I think you get the idea.
She then goes on to talk about the fears that some childfree people have and the top fear is the idea of regretting the decision later in life although it seems that fear normally doesn’t amount to anything later on.
“While one in three of us worry that we might regret it in the future, I have yet to find in my field of research any older men or women who actually have regretted it. I’m sure they’re out there, but they are not among the childfree groups I belong to.
And just so nobody tries to claim that all of these women are not having kids because they can’t find a good man to marry them. Only around 22% of people surveyed were single and out of those, only 4% wished they had children.
Finally, when asked “Are you happy being kid-free?” an overwhelming 96.9% answered Yes.
Out of the 3.1% who answered No only 20% are not able to conceive and 28% are single.
So there you go. What more proof do you need that your information on women who don’t want children is just a bunch of made up nonsense supported by statistics that by your own admission don’t even discuss the reasons?
And one final thing to top this off. I was at a dinner in NYC last night and met 2 women who were in happy marriages without children. Both women were attractive, educated and successful and were both very friendly and very happy If these women are so scarce, how is it possible that I met two of them in such a short period of time? Including my wife, that makes for three happily childfree women in the same room at the same time. What are the odds? A lot higher than you think.
@ Dazzel
Dazzel said on July 21, 2013:
“My standards aren’t too bad…..I’d like someone who doesn’t want kids, who works, has good hygiene, and drives.”
Dazzel said on July 24, 2013
“Well, I haven’t been laid in many years, and that pretty much sucks. But that’s because my standards are really high.”
And:
“You are acting like your typical indecisive woman!”
Right, it’s we male bloggers who are acting like an indecisive woman.
Dazzel, you cannot swagger on to this site, shooting all ‘big & bad’ as a feminist and expect to be treated with kid gloves.
Why are you here? If you don’t see any value in Dalrock’s articles…….then go elsewhere.
BUT
If you do see some value in his articles, then please stay & learn. Perhaps you’ll come to realize why it is you haven’t been laid in many years. (and I don’t intend that to sound crass or mean).
Trying to ‘man-shame’ & attack the regulars on this site will get you no pity nor sympathy.
Dazzel said: Well, I haven’t been laid in many years, and that pretty much sucks. But that’s because my standards are really high.
ROTFLMAO.
No, “sweetheart,” I think it’s perfectly safe to say that the reason you haven’t been laid in years (assuming that you’re telling the truth here, which is always a problematic gamble where femtrolls are concerned) is because you have the personality and attitude of a cornered mongoose. Not exactly something that serves as a “man magnet.”
@ Michael
I don’t know what to tell you, other than your actions do come across as desperate. The sleuthing you did on Kelly was helpful, but women would find that type of ‘web-crawling’ creepy.
Don’t get me wrong, we’ve all been there…….myself included. Loneliness is not a good bedmate.
Things didn’t turn around for me until I quit looking, and started investing my time & resources in ME.
I think that annoys a woman more than anything else, a guy who is comfortable in his own skin…..and spending time & money on HIMSELF.
Go & do something on your bucket list…….scuba dive, learn to fly, anything that pleases YOU.
@Michael and Casey,
Yes, there is a hint of desperation. But these women who are approaching you are a bit desperate too, right? I don’t think you will come off as desperate to the right woman (I know that sounds too romantic and wishful). I think those women sense desperation because they don’t want to admit that they are actively seeking a mate (as feminism encourages the independent, don’t need a man thinking) and that they should have been all along. So they project their desperation onto you.
I know I’m going to be opening myself up for ridicule and I’ll take whatever comments in stride for this next remark. For what it’s worth, Michael, and from what you’ve posted here about yourself, I’d give you serious consideration as a mate. As Casey, deti and others have posted before, the right woman is seriously considering what she has to offer you. That’s why she’s not in your face. My wishful side is showing again; they don’t call me Hopeful for nothing.
@CF Man. “The author surveyed over 4000 people without children, whether by choice or by circumstance and continues to do so today, adding to the stats”
LOL !!!!!!!! This is called “shooting fish in a barrel”.
“The author surveyed over 4000 ”
That is NOT a study… Not even remotely close……
LOL… Dont quit your day job 🙂
@ Hopeful
There will be no snide comments from me. None are necessary.
@mikesinger
Thank you for reinforcing my original reasons for not continuing to post here. You reacted exactly as I thought you would “LA LA LA, I can’t hear you!!” when faced with hard evidence that directly refutes your opinions of this subject.
You casually dismiss and laugh off the responses from 4000 people in the specific demographic we are talking about, yet are perfectly happy to back up your own views with personal experience with a handful of childfree women. Do you realize how foolish you are making yourself sound?
I suspect you don’t.
Local Jargon:
As I have been reading stuff posted here recently, I found myself doing a bunch of googling etc to catch on to some of the local dialect, in the process creating a little glossary. Here it is, in hopes that it might be helpful to any other newbies.
DTB: Dump the b**ch
DTF: Down to f**k
FWB: Friends with benefits
GCG: Good church (or christian) girl
ILYBINILY: I love you but I’m not in love with you
IOI: Indicator of interest
LJBF: Let’s just be friends
LTR: Long-term relationship
MGTOW: Men going their own way
MMP: Marriage market place
MMV: Marriage market value
NASWALT: Not all single women are like that
NSA: No strings attached
ONS: One-night stand
PUA: Pick-up artist
SAHM: Stay-at-home mom
SMP: Sexual market place
SMV: Sexual market value
STR: Short-term relationship
YMMV: Your mileage may vary
6-6-6: 6 ft tall, 6-figure income, or deep-6 him. At first, I assumed that the third 6 was measured in inches 😉
Some that I kinda get from context/usage but that I’d like more definition of:
Blue pill
Game
Red pill
CF man I think what you have is really interesting. As the old saying goes “There is some one for everybody” One thing you need to understand the child free is a unique group of people. Also MRA types are in a large part family men. They are the 80% of men, betas, the back bone of any civilization. Spend less time winning them over and more time about the CF people and how they find and meet each other. Speak of the lifestyle and the day to day life. I’m a family man myself the whole point of living is to enjoy the kids and mine are awesome. As an MRA type that has chosen a path of having the laws of misandry removed the goal on my part is to make as many childless spinsters as possible. There is a reason for it but what I’m most interested in is that there emotionally happy group of people that are childless and that I find is interesting.
.
@CFMan
“Thank you for reinforcing my original reasons for not continuing to post here. You reacted exactly as I thought you would “LA LA LA, I can’t hear you!!” when faced with hard evidence that directly refutes your opinions of this subject.”
Just wanted to say I really appreciate your posts and find them to be quite informative, so I would hope that a few disagreements here and there with some of the other commentators would not deter you from continuing to post here. You might disagree with what some or even most of the people on here have to say, but there’s also lot to learn, and there are even some commentators with similar views, If you haven’t read most of Lyn87’s posts, I would encourage you to do so. I guess when it comes down to it, you don’t really have anything to prove. There’s always going to someone who disagrees with you and your lifestyle, and insists it’s this and that, even when you’re living proof of the contrary. Oh well, c’est la vie. Whether you decide to keep posting or not is obviously up to, but regardless, best of luck to you and your wife and congrats on your marriage:)
@CF Man- What you presented was a “survey”. Get it ? A “survey” from a author who writing a book.
Yawn….. I proceed w/o the shaming and ad hominems.
Anyone can conduct a “survey” and write a book as well.
It is not a “designed” study designed by a impartial researchers that has “very specific controls” over a broad population (as you mentioned 20%)
The result is a “survey”
Btw background is specifically in the biotech/medical field. The vast majority of my job is gathering and relaying clinical/social outcomes from clinical/scientific/social studies & medical journals regarding in organ transplantation(The transplant teams range from world thought leaders specifically genomic / proteomic research to case workers). Presenting a “survey” is a referred to “shooting fish in a barrel” in professional circles.
In addition, reviewing patients conditions and “situations” of which “each one is truly unique” despite having a identical illness.
Maybe….Just maybe you dont realize how unreliable the data is to support your premise is..
I think you might be missing my original premise – so I try this “one more time”
To suggest that “women” do not have a innate insatiable desire to have children is ridiculous.
When a “woman” mentions “she” does not want children she is either lying (which includes unconscious / conscious and omission) or unable.
Every action has a consequences- when a woman “says she doesn’t want children”
What is the action ?
To say otherwise is to suggest that feminism and the effects (birth control, education etc) and all that is associated with it has somehow genetically altered Western “women” to remove this “innate insatiable desire.
I don’t think so….
No one (especially women) likes to admit a physical, emotional, mental deficiency brought on by a promiscuous lifestyle or simply admitting ones mistakes (delaying marriage, abortion etc) quite often the consequences are irreversible.
Now if you are man who believes that “somehow women” don’t have hard wired “baby rabies” that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
My personal experience and findings is otherwise.
I think your just viewing the “tip of the iceberg” – most of the mass is underwater and therefore unseen.
Imo, I think your in for quite the surprise of your life when you find out how deeply deceiving women can be.
~Shalom
@ Hopeful
“I know I’m going to be opening myself up for ridicule and I’ll take whatever comments in stride for this next remark. For what it’s worth, Michael, and from what you’ve posted here about yourself, I’d give you serious consideration”
-So are you 30+ lbs overweight or over age 30? It’s got to be one…
@greyghost
I agree 100% that CF people are a unique and rather small minority. I am not trying to claim anything to the contrary, simply trying to show that we really do exist. I have encountered quite a range of MRA’s and while this site seems to attract the family oriented type, there are quite a few who don’t want anything to do with women at all and never want to settle down. As you saw in the data I posted, an overwhelming majority of CF people are happy. The most common reason given for this happiness is simply freedom. Freedom to go out whenever we please, focus on our own interests, our own hobbies, our own relationship. I am glad that you found happiness in having children, but the statement “the whole point of living is to enjoy the kids” summarizes one of the biggest reasons that I chose NOT to have kids. I love my wife and the life we have together and couldn’t imagine a life that completely revolved around raising a child. I have seen many friends go through the process of becoming parents and did not like what I saw. It wasn’t until later in life that I made this decision and it was mostly due to what I saw happening to all of the people around me having kids. When I log into Facebook and see that 90% of people my age are using a picture of their child to represent them, I see that as a loss of personal identity.
@perspective
Thanks for that post. It’s good to know that someone is getting something from by posts. It’s not the disagreements that turn me off to posting, but the blatant disregard of facts and evidence. I would be happy to stick around to answer honest questions that aren’t a direct attack of my life choices. If I wanted that I could visit parenting blogs and ridicule them for their choices to become parents. That isn’t my goal, I’m just here to show some of the people here who seem to have very limited world views that there is another side to the story no matter how much you try to convince yourself (and others) that it is a myth or a lie.
@mikesinger
I really don’t care what you want to label the data that I presented. As others have pointed out, I don’t need to prove anything to you. I know that you are wrong and will no longer address you in my comments because talking to brick walls is not how I like to spent my time. The people who are actually interested in hearing what I have to say have gotten the message and responded accordingly.
@ Michael
If Hopeful has been reading these blogs, yours in particular……..I’m sure she’s gleaned that age & weight are non-negotiable for you.
Perhaps an olive branch would serve you better in this circumstance, as opposed to a stick?
@ Michael
I met my wife through a female friend, and that female friend was the sister of someone with whom I worked.
This female friend was interested in me as more than friends; I was not interested in her as anything but a friend. We happened to be out (as friends) when I met my current wife….turns out my friend’s co-workers had ties to my current wife.
Without that chain of events; and without that friendship I would not have met the person I am with today.
I guess what I’m saying is: Don’t upchuck all over the chain of events that may lead you to your mate.
“The sex-role patterns of voluntarily childless women are reported from the results of an in-depth interview study that compared 30 childless, 29 delay (subjects who are currently childless, but plan to have children in the future), and 24 parent (subjects with their first child under the age of 2) wives and husbands, chosen on a purposive basis. Sex role is conceptualized as a complex variable composed of behavior, attitudes, and self-image, and as the interface between psychological and situational phenomena. The hypothesis tested is that the childless women are less traditional in sex-role orientation than either the delays or parents, indicating that psychological factors are more important than situational factors in distinguishing the groups. The data confirm the hypothesis.”
Bram, Susan. “Voluntarily childless women: Traditional or nontraditional?.” Sex roles 10.3-4 (1984): 195-206.
————————-
“There has been little in-depth theoretical study in sociology of the motives of women and men who are childless by choice. This article begins to remedy this deficiency by analyzing the motives articulated by twenty-three childless women and men using Weber’s typology of social action and distinction between primary and end motives. In-depth interview and focus group data reveal that, compared to men, women more often were affected by the parenting models of significant others, saw parenting as conflicting with career and leisured identities, and claimed the lack of a “maternal instinct” or disinterest in children as dominant influences. Men more explicitly than women rejected parenthood because of its perceived sacrifices, including financial expense. Both women and men were motivated by personality traits that they deemed incongruent with good parenting. Declared motives especially demonstrated instrumentally rational action in Weber’s schema, although affectual and value-rational actions also were present. Respondent motives are compared to those that they, and empirical studies, have attributed to parents.”
Park, Kristin. “Choosing Childlessness: Weber’s Typology of Action and Motives of the Voluntarily Childless*.” Sociological Inquiry 75.3 (2005): 372-402.
————————-
“This study examined the potential implications of religious affiliation on perceptions of voluntarily childless couples. Undergraduate students were given a vignette about an adult couple that either had children or that was childless, and were subsequently asked to complete questionnaires that rated the couple on a variety of personality dimensions. It was predicted that individuals who identify with pronatalist religious sects have more negative perceptions of those who are childless. There was a significant contrast in the views that Christian individuals held toward couples that were voluntarily childless versus those that had two children, suggesting that this religious affiliation is associated with perceptions of those who stray from the standards of the pronatalist society.”
Hook, Alyssa N. “Perceptions of the Voluntarily Childless: The Negative Stigma of an Unconventional Ideal.” (2012).
————————-
“We examine double standards in norms on voluntary childlessness. Whether choosing childlessness is more accepted for men or for women is not a priori clear; we formulate arguments in both directions. Multilevel analyses are conducted, including individual and societal-level variables. Our sample consists of 44,055 individuals nested in 25 European countries, obtained from Wave 3 of the European Social Survey (2006). Subjective norms were measured with a split ballot design, with half of the respondents randomly assigned questions regarding women choosing not to have children, and half assigned items regarding men. Findings indicate that men are more disapproved of when choosing not to have children than are women. Overall, this double standard is endorsed by women, not by men. Clear cross-national variation in the double standard exists, which is partly explained by the level of gender equality (GEM). Surprisingly, the higher the gender equality, the stronger the double standard.”
Rijken, Arieke J., and E-M. Merz. “Double standards: a cross-European study on differences in norms on voluntary childlessness for men and women. Paper presentation.” 2011 Annual Meeting of the Population Association of America (PAA), Washington, March 31-April 2, 2011. 2011.
————————-
“Widowed childless older women had lower psychological well-being than did widowed mothers. However, among married women childlessness had no significant effects on well-being. Results also show that physical capacity, religiosity, quality of social interaction, and strength of social support are all positively associated with well-being among older women. Jewish women reported lower well-being than did catholic women who, in turn, evidenced lower well-being than did protestant women.”
Beckman, Linda J., and Betsy Bosak Houser. “The consequences of childlessness on the social-psychological well-being of older women.” Journal of Gerontology 37.2 (1982): 243-250.
————————-
“Negative attitudes toward childlessness still remain, and most people hold strong beliefs about parenthood as a vital mode of fulfillment. Research findings, however, tend to show that people are better off not having children, particularly women, singles, lower socioeconomic strata, and people residing in less pronatalist societies—especially when these characteristics act in combination. The reasons empirical findings do not map onto beliefs may be because parents are exposed to different stressors that cancel out or exceed the emotional rewards; because childlessness has a number of advantages that promote wellbeing; and because of effective adaptation and compensation by involuntary childless persons. The reason why the beliefs do not map onto the findings may be attributable to cognitive biases and that people mistake the rewards of parenting for happiness, when they have more to do with meaning. The current review reveals an interesting paradox: It appears that a familistic culture and strong pronatalist values and attitudes go together with low fertility rates and marked negative emotional effects of having children, whereas fertility rates are higher and parents derive greater happiness in more individualistic cultures where people hold less pronatalist beliefs (see also Bernhardt and Fratczak 2005). The rosy views or myths about parenthood thus are the strongest in countries where they are the most likely to be false, and vice versa.
This paper clarifies and debunks some of the myths about parental status and wellbeing, an illumination is important as commentators and policymakers are trying the curb and understand the consequences of the rapid growth in childlessness across Western nations. Indeed, final childlessness among women born after 1970 is likely to range between 15 and 25% in industrialized countries (Sobotka 2004).”
Hansen, Thomas. “Parenthood and happiness: A review of folk theories versus empirical evidence.” Social Indicators Research 108.1 (2012): 29-64.
————————-
“Marciano (1978) also investigated male pressure in the decision to remain childfree, collecting data from a total of 100 married couples from the National Organization for Non-Parents and finding that if it was the husband’s decision to remain childfree and not the wife’s at first, she was likely to come into agreement with him. On the other hand, if it was the wife’s decision to remain childfree, only very rarely would the husband consent. The more likely result, if she remained adamant, was divorce.”
“Today we know that childless couples have a variety of reasons for their decision. Such families may belong to the voluntarily childless (also called childfree), involuntarily childless (as in case of fecundity impaired) or temporarily childfree (people who have no children but expect to have them later).”
“Nonetheless, the difficulty of distinguishing the childfree from the childless in demographic data is also worth noting, with the consequent risk of overestimating the phenomenon. Again, we should be aware of the need to disentangle the permanently childfree from the temporarily childfree. This is a very important issue and one that is essential to achieving a clearer understanding of the phenomenon. Questionnaires and other psychological investigations may help quantify the percentage of childfree couples and document their intentions for the future; however, it is not at all easy to determine what percentage of people who consider themselves childfree forever will subsequently change their minds. People may be absolutely sure of their desire to be childfree at the moment in which they answer questionnaires, but may later change their minds. Heaton et al. (1999) for example, observed the data from a sample of 13,017 respondents of the US population aged 19 years and older. Six years later, nearly half of the sample had not yet carried out their intentions to have a child, and a fifth of the respondents had changed their minds. This would suggest the instability of childbearing intentions and the difficulty of determining a clear border between those who are permanently and temporarily childfree.”
Agrillo, Christian, and Cristian Nelini. “Childfree by choice: A review.” Journal of Cultural Geography 25.3 (2008): 347-363.
————————-
“Although the majority of women in Europe and the United States continue to become mothers at some point in their lives, both reproductive choice and greater autonomy have created the possibility for women to choose to remain childfree, in ways not possible for previous generations of women. Other studies have highlighted social change, affluence, higher levels of education, and the support of partners as key factors in enabling women who desire to do so to remain childfree (Burgwyn 1983; Campbell 1985; Joshi 1989; McAllister and Clarke 1998; Morell 1994; Safer 1996; Veevers 1983; Walby 1997). Although I found childfree women located within a wide range of social groups, I did find a relationship between being childfree and higher social class.
While I found the existence of a pull toward the perceived freedoms and opportunities associated with the lifestyle of childfree women, as have other authors, what my findings establish that is new is the existence of a more radical rejection or push away from motherhood as a normative female gender marker. These women reflect a radical departure from hegemonic understandings that to be a woman is inextricably bound to motherhood. Indeed, an increasing number of women reject and resist pronatalist cultural imperatives of femininity that conflate woman with mother, highlighting the emergence of a positive feminine identity separate from motherhood.
It may be that there have always been women who preferred to remain childfree. The choices of women in the past have remained hidden. Being childfree has always been socially sanctioned for some groups, such as spinsters, widows, nuns, and nannies (Weigle 1982). Although these roles may have provided legitimacy for those who eschewed motherhood, they were defined by loss, self-sacrifice, and/or the nurturing of others’ children. They failed to challenge, and even served to bolster, pronatalist cultural discourses that fused hegemonic femininity with motherhood. As Di Lapi (1987) has observed, poor, single, and lesbian women have generally been framed by others as unfit mothers and expected to remain childless. Campbell (1999, 72) has argued there have always been individual women who sought to prevent conception, aborted unwanted fetuses, and abandoned or killed a newborn child. What is new is both the increasing numbers of women who eschew motherhood and that increasingly they are able to articulate their rejection in ways not generally available to previous generations of women.
Giddens (1991) argued that late modernity has given rise to fundamental transformations, which have had a profound effect on the nature of the self. Modernity has created new possibilities for being a woman that exclude motherhood. In describing the pull of remaining childfree and a more radical push away from motherhood, and by articulating a rejection of motherhood as central to their sense of femininity and identity, childfree women highlight the transformative effects of agency. Unapologetic, childfree women underscore how meanings of femininity and identity are highly complex and individual and cannot adequately be explained through essentialist notions of the convergence of woman with mother. Their rejection of motherhood exemplifies how modernity has given rise to wider possibilities for women to shape a fulfilling gender identity that is separate and uncoupled from the hegemonic ideal of motherhood.
I suggest that a trend to remain childfree and an articulation of the lack of desire for motherhood create new possibilities to forge a childfree femininity. Indeed, future research could explore the ways cultural discourses associated with motherhood may never have adequately explained women’s subjective experiences. For example, Benn (1998) and Adams (1998) have shown that the public face of motherhood fails to account for the private experiences of women who are mothers. It is possible that my respondents rejected motherhood because they did not experience the maternal desire that hegemonic femininity suggests exists. Instead, they seem to have experienced a sense of female gender identity unshackled from motherhood, a childfree femininity. Although the findings of this study cannot be used to generalize, they can usefully inform debate and highlight the need for further research into the subjective experiences of identity both in women who are mothers and those who are childfree, among white women and women of color. Further research might also inform a fuller understanding of masculinity by contrasting.”
Gillespie, Rosemary. “Childfree And Feminine Understanding the Gender Identity of Voluntarily Childless Women.” Gender & Society 17.1 (2003): 122-136.
————————-
And another:
Kelly, Maura. “Women’s Voluntary Childlessness: A Radical Rejection of Motherhood?.” WSQ: Women’s Studies Quarterly 37.2 (2009): 157-172.
@Casey
“I guess what I’m saying is: Don’t upchuck all over the chain of events that may lead you to your mate.”
Excellent point. Glad that the particular “chain of events” in your life, led to meeting your wife.
@Casey
“Perhaps an olive branch would serve you better in this circumstance, as opposed to a stick?”
Agreed
@CF Man “I really don’t care what you want to label the data that I presented.”
Bigger Yawn 🙂
That is the point – its not a study, it is the bottom of the barrel “survey” data from a author selling a book.
Somehow you think I am disagreeing what you presented – I’m not (despite it being low powered, biased, and a barrel shoot).
What you presented was the outcome and not the specific cause – get it ?
If I a condemned for critical review of pointing out grossly obvious flaws- then your premises are ill founded and a red herrings since they record the consequences and it is not designed to capture the specific “cause/reason” among other things- get it ?
So you are stating that:
-women have no innate desire to birth children (baby rabies )
and
– there is no correlation between childless and birth control, abortion, promiscuity, sexual hyperventilation, education, age, delayed marriage, no fault divorce (choices made by women)
and therefore
-some women intentionally”choose” remain “childless.
Wow…Am I ever wrong about this subject. Thank you for clearly setting me straight. I greatly appreciate it.
So if a women decides to remain “childless” and marries in her early to mid 30’s or so. I wonder what is her medical/moral condition? Did she remained abstinent or chaste or what is the bearing of the moral/virtue compass ? LOL 🙂
As mentioned “good for you” that you found something that works for “your situation”.
~Shalom
@ Hopeful
(extends olive branch)
… Thank you for the compliment.
@ Casey
Your correct.
I wonder why Hopeful would give Micheal “serious consideration”.
She hasn’t met him in person.
Doesn’t know what kind of person he is nor what he looks like.
If I had to guess, I’d say it’s because he makes a plenty of money and has a beach house.
@ MGHOW
To be fair, I would expect ‘earnings potential’ to be high up on the list of priorities for women. It’s also why Michael has exclaimed he pursued a high earnings career……to attract a woman.
On a man’s list, (in this case Michael’s) physical attraction is high on the list of ‘must haves’……and I don’t consider that any more unique than I do a woman’s desire for a man that makes good money.
Michael’s frustration comes from the fact that his plan to acquire a mate has not worked to date; as many women foolishly believe one or more of the following:
• Marriage will always be there me
• I don’t need a man to feel complete
• I look better at 35 than I did at 25
• I can begin my family at age 40
Hopeful has conducted herself pretty well on this site, so let’s give her the benefit of the doubt.
This is hardly a website where romance springs eternal; and frequented by gold-digging bitches.
@ MGHOW
Those characteristics are certainly a better thing for her to care about than some of the other things women are drawn to. I can’t speak for Michael, but for myself I wouldn’t mind a woman being drawn to my job/salary and home if I was assured that she wasn’t intending to steal them from me.
donalgraeme “if I was assured that she wasn’t intending to steal them from me.”
This is a untenable position and in business terms would mean as long as I continued to increase profitability “we” have a agreement. If there is a unforeseen change – then there is a amendment to the agreement.
The only way what you are suggesting would work is if the womans appearance/attractiveness never decrease or her weight would never increase.
Thank you MarcusD. The last study was particularly interesting.
@michaelsinger
I said I would not respond to you, but now you are putting words in my mouth and I am not going to sit back and allow that to happen.
I never claimed “women have no innate desire to birth children (baby rabies )” although the burden of proof lies in your hands for that one and you haven’t provided proof that it does exist.
I also never claimed that “there is no correlation between childless and birth control, abortion, promiscuity, sexual hyperventilation, education, age, delayed marriage, no fault divorce (choices made by women)” and frankly don’t care if there is or isn’t a correlation because that isn’t what I am arguing here.
Easy access to birth control absolutely contributes to the ability for more women to remain childfree. Abortions as well. If a woman gets pregnant and chooses to abort, is that not her exercising her choice to remain childfree?
The only point I am arguing is that some women intentionally choose to remain childFREE. Not childless, but childfree. A more accurate statement from me would have been as follows:
-SOME women don’t have an innate desire to have children
and
-SOME women do not want to give up their childfree lifestyle and value their freedom more than they value having children.
therefore
-SOME women intentionally choose to remain childfree.
I’m not speaking about morals, not speaking about remaining chaste, just the idea that women can, and do, choose to not have children and actually mean it. Some women have the desire, but choose to remain childfree for other reasons. Other women do not have the desire at all. Regardless of the reasons, the fact is that women make deliberate choices to not have children every day. This cannot be denied.
One last thing for you to think about… If the desire is insatiable for women to have children, how is it possible to stop after having just 1 or 2? Are you implying that all women who say they want only 1 child are also lying? If what you are saying were true, how would it be possible for a couple to decide ahead of time exactly how many children they want and stop at that number? I’m genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on this.
@CF Man – “the fact is that women make deliberate choices to not have children every day.”
Yes they do. And if abortion / murder is by convenience, then their are emotional, physical, psychological side effects as well. Given the “education”, higher income, and contraceptions available- one would think that abortion would drop to practically nothing.
Not the case.
http://kff.org/womens-health-policy/state-indicator/distribution-of-abortions-by-age/
Interesting enough the highest age range for abortion is 20-29 and the second highest range is 30-39 SURPASSING the up to 19 year old range. WOW- the “older/educated” 30-39 olds SURPASSED the up to “less educated / inexperienced” 19 year old range – this is quite alarming.
Since you stated “I’m not speaking about morals, not speaking about remaining chaste”. Easy access to birth control absolutely contributes to the ability for more women to remain childfree. Abortions as well. If a woman gets pregnant and chooses to abort, is that not her exercising her choice to remain childfree?”
I would like to bring it back in the loop since abortion / murder for convenience is quite deliberate, selfish, and deliberate in this matter.
THIS IS A SICK & PERVERTED EXCUSE FOR BIRTH CONTROL.
If gaining ones freedom involves murder of the innocent then G_D help you.
I have a certain viewpoint which include very very unkind words regarding a woman/couple who proceed forward with a abortion/murder due to convenience. I’ll be polite and say there is history of “perfect justice” and nature depicting reaping what one sows.
A human that can kill its own young for the sake of pleasure & convenience is a worse than a animal – it is a feral vicious beast that eats, sleeps, drinks, defecates, copulates day in and day out – it is not human being – there is no soul or conscious.
Any man expecting nurturing from a partner that doesn’t want children, may want to know the specific reason why. If not, caveat emptor.
Regarding “If the desire is insatiable for women to have children, how is it possible to stop after having just 1 or 2? ”
– That is to far broad brushed of a question given the socio/ economic / stability and many other variables and involves spousal decision.
– In addition, I dont have any experience nor have I investigated it nor have the desire to.
“the fact is that women make deliberate choices to not have children every day.”
Yes they do.
If they do it by promiscuity, murder and other base things – if the shoe fits then wear it proudly for all to see.
~Shalom
@Michael
“-So are you 30+ lbs overweight or over age 30? It’s got to be one…”
I’m not over the age of 30. I’m right on the nose. As far as weight, that’s personal. Since BMI has become a somewhat controversial measure of health especially for minority groups, I’m more inclined to use body fat percentage and waist to hip ration, which are both with the normal limits (less than 33% and less than 0.8).
@MGHOW
“I wonder why Hopeful would give Micheal “serious consideration”.
She hasn’t met him in person.
Doesn’t know what kind of person he is nor what he looks like.
If I had to guess, I’d say it’s because he makes a plenty of money and has a beach house.”
Speaking in generalities here, it sounds like you are protecting men’s (in this case Michael’s) best self-interest. Nothing wrong with that as we all do it. As a marriage-minded woman, any man who values family and hard work causes me to perk up. Have we been dealing with women who value all the wrong things so long that we don’t recognize a woman who does? (I mean that rhetorically).
@Casey
“To be fair, I would expect ‘earnings potential’ to be high up on the list of priorities for women. It’s also why Michael has exclaimed he pursued a high earnings career……to attract a woman.
On a man’s list, (in this case Michael’s) physical attraction is high on the list of ‘must haves’……and I don’t consider that any more unique than I do a woman’s desire for a man that makes good money.”
I agree. In Michael’s case, we’re not talking ‘earnings potential,’ as he is already established in his field, but rather ‘earnings.’ Hence MGHOW’s concern that I could be after Michael’s earnings.
@donalgraeme
“Those characteristics are certainly a better thing for her to care about than some of the other things women are drawn to. I can’t speak for Michael, but for myself I wouldn’t mind a woman being drawn to my job/salary and home if I was assured that she wasn’t intending to steal them from me.”
I agree.
Gotta risk some reject, right guys?
Abortion exists for the sake of eugenics, and nothing else. Planned parenthood always has it’s signs and billboards in the harder parts, never ever in the well-off parts. It started for the sake of eugenics and continues for the sake of eugenics.
@They Call Me Tom “Abortion exists for the sake of eugenics,”
At the tip of the iceberg – yes i believe that is a portion of it in terms of population control.
The unseen mass of the iceberg is $ and I do mean huge $$$$$$ for the harvesting of anatomic fluid and such.
In ancient times, certain civilizations offered their children in human sacrifice to appease the gods.
It is quite amusing to think what race of people would do something so inhuman ? What where other characteristics of those civilizations ? What was the outcome of those cultures ?
Quick history review shows there was a lot more than meets the eye and the old adage applies – History repeats itself and apples dont fall far from trees.
Being a Jew, I use to think that genocide for the geopolitics/eugenics, was inhuman.
After consideration, abortion / infanticide of the defenseless unborn for the sake of birth control / convenience for sexual gratification (ie non medical) is the highest form of evil.
It will be interesting to see what the outcome of all this will be.
Hoary old joke…
Q: What’s a good name for an abortion clinic located in a black neighborhood?
A: Crimestoppers.
It’s not widely known, but blacks get close to HALF the abortions in the U.S.
Likewise, married blacks in this country have a birth rate that not only is below that of married whites, it’s so low that it’s well below replacement rate. Without all the illegitimate births among U.S. blacks, their numbers would actually be declining.
What the Rabbis (Oral Tradition) have to say on the subject – very insightful
“For thus we find in the case of Cain, who killed his brother, that it is written: ‘The bloods of your brother cry unto Me’ (Genesis 4:10) — that is, his blood and the blood of his potential descendants….
Therefore was the first man, Adam, created alone, to teach us that whoever destroys a single life, the Bible considers it as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a single life, the Bible considers it as if he saved an entire world.
Money and a beach house is good enough for me. I can feel my dick getting hard already. Oh man that isn’t Michele it is a Michael oh well never mind.
@mikesinger
Let’s sum things up.
– My question regarding how it would be possible for women to stop having children after just 1 or 2 is “far too broad brushed”, involves spousal decision as well as many other variables.
And
– You have no experience, have not investigated nor do you have the desire to look into this
Therefore
– Women that don’t want kids either cant or are lying- this cannot be denied.
Is it safe to say you aren’t actually qualified to make the above statement with any degree of accuracy or certainty?
Now onto the topic of abortion, which I am not debating the merits of, but need to again clarify a few things. It seems that all of your angst is misdirected towards childfree women when women who are already mothers are getting more abortions than any other demographic.
“Women who are already mothers have more abortions than anyone else, and by an increasingly wide margin. When Guttmacher Institute researchers last ran the numbers in 2008 they found that 61 percent of women who terminate a pregnancy in this country already have at least one child. That was before the recession, though—before the poverty rate rose to swallow 40.7 percent of women who head families, many of whom know they can’t afford another child.* So I asked the National Abortion Federation, a professional association of abortion providers, to run the numbers on the women visiting their clinics and calling their hotlines in the past few years. The resulting figures shocked NAF President Vicki Saporta, who called to tell me that every year since 2008, a whopping 72 percent of NAF clients looking to terminate a pregnancy were already mothers, up at least 10 percent from the years before the economy crashed.”
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2011/10/most_surprising_abortion_statistic_the_majority_of_women_who_ter.html
72% of women looking to terminate pregnancy since 2008 were already mothers.
So you can throw all of the statistics about abortion by age range at me, but the numbers you provided don’t make any mention of whether these women had previous children or not. Again, I am not here to argue abortion, single mothers, etc. Simply to properly represent women who choose to not have any children. Childfree women are generally very cautious about their birth control methods, often times opting for permanent sterilization, requiring condom use even while on the pill, etc… These are not the women having frequent abortions, so please direct your ranting and shaming in a different direction.
As you mentioned earlier, the reasons involved in the decision to have children, or not to have children are very complex. My wife and I have discussed the issue in great length and she wasn’t against having children when we met. It was through weighing the pros and cons, examining our situation and looking at our future together that we decided that children were not for us. People are very quick to have children without putting much thought into why they are having them. Many parents never thought it was a decision they had to make, but treat it as the next stage in life. Graduate High School, go to college, get a job, get married, have kids. Many in our circles refer to this as the life script. Question a parent about why they wanted children and you will never hear the end of it. But to question a CFBC person about their choice to remain childfree, which in many cases involved much more thought than those who have children, is perfectly acceptable. I am proud of the fact that I chose to remain childfree in the face of extreme pressure from society. That decisions, however, did not revolve around promiscuity or murder. It is a lifestyle choice that every potential parent should really put thought into before going forward with having kids.
I hate to throw a wet blanket on this discussion, but if you waited until your 30s, you’re probably done.
I got married when I was 25, right after I graduated from law school. If I was going to get married, I knew I wanted kids and I didn’t want to wait until my wife was in her 30s and couldn’t have any.
I’ll let all you ladies in on a little secret: moms are hot! Just look at Kate Middleton. Real men want wives who can have kids. Men who don’t want kids probably aren’t very good in bed, either. They don’t want kids because they know they can’t get the job done.
If you want to find a husband and have some kids, start going to church on Sunday (Catholic and evangelical are best). You’ll meet real men, the type who can actually make babies. But don’t wait too long, once you hit your mid-30s, you’re probably not going to be able to have kids and you won’t be as attractive to real men.
[Dalrock – This thread is pushing my lap-top to its limits – Windows 7- so perhaps needs either closure or division]
Reading the comment back to myself from Lyn 87 and CFMan’s masterly exposition of his position – perhaps the ladies who come here would take a leaf out of his book as to how to defend a position – I would like to say, that for me, somehow, in the absence of medical, financial or other good reason, the decision consciously to opt-out of parenthood seems to me to be a thought too far. One of the amusing things about Atheistic sites is, even as the commenters attempt to disprove the Deity’s existence one senses that it is not so much disbelief, but dislike that motivates them and in like manner those who seek to justify childlessness -as a life-style choice – seem to me to be doing something similar, that is to say, not a dislike of children as such but a refusal to take that step, much as a child might balk at the idea of going to school for the first time.
As an aside it strikes me as ironic that America a country that boasts of its freedoms can nevertheless so it seems place unfair pressure on those like CFMan to reproduce such that he can feel ‘Proud’ in resisting doing so. In England , we are I think a lot freer for (as I have observed before) there seems to be no pressure at all on anyone here, man or woman, to marry or then to reproduce, or for that matter anything else – perhaps that is why we produce people like Newton, Faraday, and Darwin, and copious other eccentrics like John Logie Baird . It is merely amusing (for me) to observe the countless menopausal women bemoaning their failure to even produce one trophy child as they take their place in their sisters or brothers families, as ‘Auntie Doris’ who dotes on her Nieces and Nephews. ‘Oh so good with children’ everyone says, ‘ how strange/sad that she had none of her own’ and then ‘but her husband had bad sperm ‘[dear god how often have I heard that explanation ] or ‘she never met the right man’ even as everyone knows she was the town bike. It is always the man’s fault!
For me, there is just something rather sad about deliberate childlessness – the use of the term Childfree, which I deprecate and which grates, seems to me to have the same sort of anti-social in-your-face attitude that one always gets with the LGBT crowd, who even as they parade and boast of their Pride give off a whiff of masochistic Shame.
@CF (wo)Man “Is it safe to say you aren’t actually qualified to make the above statement with any degree of accuracy or certainty?
Repost from above that I think you might have missed
“….. her endometriosis (btw, my ex-wife of 19 years had it also).
It never removed the desire to have children from her – it was quite often a heated topic ending in bitter acceptance (hypersexualization and birth control at a early age has consequences).
In the cases where women cant conceive it is simply changed to “dont want kids” to avoid embarrassment & save face (This is exactly what we did- I went along with it for her sake).”
And
“The ex-wife could not have kids. The emotional stress and blame was detrimental (she blamed me for her endometriosis and inability to conceive).
I have dated since my divorce and have seen women in their late 30′s change their viewpoints (ie lie) later into the relationship.
My post divorce engagement experience also included highly educated (double masters to doctorate level) and were career women. In review of their marriage/divorce – they “lied” to their ex-husbands about not wanting kids and then later changing their mind. Interesting enough, these women “divorced” their fathers because they were weren’t good fathers.
One of them actually “got it” after some serious discussion that the failed marriage was MOSTLY “her fault” since she had the guy was a great husband (ie “fun”) but :
– married a guy who didn’t want kids
-”amended” the original marriage agreement and forced kids down his throat
– divorced a guy who wasn’t a good father”
So to answer your question regarding “My question regarding how it would be possible for women to stop having children after just 1 or 2 is “far too broad brushed”, involves spousal decision as well as many other variables.
And
– You have no experience, have not investigated nor do you have the desire to look into this”
That is correct- I dont have any experience or insight that I can share on what makes a woman stop having children
However, I do have a fair amount of personal experience (19 years) with a ex-wife who wanted to have children and could not.
In addition, my medical career over the last 15 years has put me into contact of many educated men/women of the upper class. Of this, it is VERY common for most women MD’s to stop practicing or severely curtail their practice once they become pregnant. This is a underground joke among male physicians since the women md’s are given preferences/opportunity to the upper education level involved to assist caring for the sick.
Needless to say, they dont carry out their promise and this is lying by omission.
Btw, the maternal “instinct” is quite strong in women – this is blatantly obvious and reasonable.
If a women denys maternal instinct – there is a very specific reason(s).
Looking at it from a different light- what would be said of a man who wanted to marry a women but didnt want to have sexual intercourse with her or did not want to provide for her ?
I can give my opinion but you are more than welcome to draw your own conclusion.
@mikesinger
I didn’t miss anything you said earlier, but I did miss where your relationship with your wife who had a medical condition which made her incapable of bearing children can be considered a controlled study. Remember when you stated above in your dismissal of my survey data which had a sample size of 4000:
“It is not a “designed” study designed by a impartial researchers that has “very specific controls” over a broad population (as you mentioned 20%)”
In the case of your 19 years of personal experience with your ex-wife. Your sample size is 1. I don’t care if you have 100 years of data if your sample size is 1. And talk about biased. If an author selling a book is biased, what would you consider a man who was blamed for his wife’s inability to conceive?
I’m also not sure what women MD’s stopping practice after having children has to do with women who DO NOT WANT CHILDREN. In case you missed it in every singe post I have made here, I am talking about people who do not choose to have children. Your ex-wife who wanted children and the MD’s who had children are not CF women. Get it?
Saying that something is blatantly obvious and reasonable doesn’t make it true. Please provide me with the study data that proves maternal instinct is a real phenomenon. I can show you at least one scientist who says otherwise.
“One scientist who believes that mothering behavior is learned and not instinctual is Sarah Blaffer Hrdy, professor emeritus of anthropology at the University of California at Davis and author of Mother Nature: A History of Mothers, Infants, and Natural Selection. Hrdy has studied primates for more than three decades and believes that the desire of a mother to care for a child depends on her desire to be a mother and the amount of time spent bonding together. Although she concedes that maternal responses exist, she believes they are biologically conditioned, but not true instincts. In an interview with Salon.com she said, “A woman who is committed to being a mother will learn to love any baby, whether it’s her own or not; a woman not committed to or prepared for being a mother may well not be prepared to love any baby, not even her own.””
——————————–
Desire for sex and desire for procreation are very different things. See this study:
http://www.recherche.ouvaton.org/telechargement/erotic_vs_reproduction.pdf
“Reproductive behavior” VS “Erotic behavior”
What are the particular characteristics which suggest, in mammals, the
existence of two types of sexual behavior?
To a remarkable extent, recent studies have shown that rodents’ and
hominids’ sexual behavior depended on different neurobiological processes,
which enables to explain the differences in their behavior.
…
On the other hand, when we observe the sexual behavior of hominoid
primates, especially that of human beings, we notice a variety of activities
around several areas of the body: sensual caresses, oral-oral, oral-genital,
genital-genital or anal-genital activities… This sexual behavior of hominids is
very different from that of the lower mammals (Bagemihl, 2000), and rather
seems to correspond to a behavior of stimulation of erogenous zones, in order
to obtain erotic pleasure. At the neurobiological level, were also discovered
innate and crucial processes which explain the erogenous zones, the erotic
reinforcements (Agmo, 2007) and pleasure (Kringelbach & Berridge, 2009).
For all these reasons, this behavior appears as being rather an “erotic
behavior”.
The evolution from the “reproductive behavior” of the simplest mammals
to the “erotic behavior” of hominids is gradual, and it is due to the mammalian
brain’s evolution. It is still the same factors which intervene, but their
importance is not the same any more: decline of hormonal control (Keverne,
Martel, & Nevison, 1996; Signoret, 2006), impaired olfaction (Swaney &
Keverne, 2009; Zhang & Webb, 2003), dominance of erotic reinforcements (Agmo, 2007), corticalization and development of cognition.”
——————————————————–
I’m not really sure what your conclusion would have been, but my conclusion is that you are making up hypothetical scenarios that have nothing to do with the conversation at hand. This is especially true in the context of this website where most guys think males and females are so drastically different in the way they think.
@ Steve
“I’ll let all you ladies in on a little secret: moms are hot! Just look at Kate Middleton.”
-Yes if it’s your wife and your child and she married you during her prime years.
“Men who don’t want kids probably aren’t very good in bed, either. They don’t want kids because they know they can’t get the job done.”
-This seems a little silly
@mikesinger
I just noticed the little shot at me by adding (wo) to my name and calling me a woman.
This happened shortly after proudly beating your chest and proclaiming “Yawn….. I proceed w/o the shaming and ad hominems.”
Cute. Trite and childish, but cute.
@Opus
I appreciate the honest commentary.
It’s funny that you worded you reply in the way you did and your post made me realize something. I see some very interesting parallels between the group of men on this website and the groups you are speaking of (CFBC and Atheists). You said “even as the commenters attempt to disprove the Deity’s existence one senses that it is not so much disbelief, but dislike that motivates them” As an outsider looking in at this group, I see a bunch of men who are projecting their personal struggles with women onto the women of the world. You (the collective you) seem to assume that all woman out there are just like the ones you have encountered in your past. Quick to scream NAWALT at anyone who dares to challenge your views. Do you truly believe that all women are out to get you, or are you just unhappy with they way you have been treated by them so far? Trust me when I tell you that people viewing this group as outsiders have very similar opinions as you do towards the groups in question.
I was in agreement until the last sentence of your first paragraph. “…refusal to take that step, much as a child might balk at the idea of going to school for the first time.”
A child does not research the pros and cons of school and make a decision based on that research. A child would not learn the basic skills required to succeed in modern day society if they were to skip school completely. In my opinion, a mature adult who consciously decides to not have children after contemplating the decision is really not on the same level.
I do find it ironic and interesting as well that so much pressure is put on both me and women to reproduce in this country. This is why I fight so hard to make sure we are properly represented. I read things like what mike singer is preaching here and I take it personally because he is essentially saying that CFBC people do not exist as a group. When you meet a woman and she can look you in the eye and say that she has never had the urge to produce a child, how can you deny that her feelings are real?
And if those urges don’t exist, how can you claim that the decision to not have children would lead to a sad life? A common phrase around CF communities is “I would rather regret not having a child than regret having one.”
Think about that one for a minute. If someone does not want a child, but has one, neglects the child and drives themselves into a life they are unhappy with, how is that a more sad life than if they were to never have had that child in the first place. If you don’t think this situation occurs, browse through this site to see some of the many stories from mothers who had children and regret it after the fact. Those women are living sad lives.
http://childfreedom.blogspot.com/2011/04/i-regret-having-kids.html
I completely disagree with your interpretation of the terms childless and childfree. The suffix “less” is usually attached to things that are deemed to be negative. Spineless, heartless, etc… When a person chooses to not have children, they don’t feel like their lives are “less” anything, but “free” of the burdens that go along with having children. If you want to see that word as confrontational and in-your-face, that is your prerogative, but that is not how it is intended to be taken.
@CFMan
I have no intention of being drawn into the matters you have segued onto, nor for that matter of your proselytising on behalf of those seeking to justify their posited victimhood of childlessness, other than to say that I am not in agreement with your views or the slant that you put on them.
You certainly reason better than those (other?) women who come here but the reasoning is in view of a sophistic nature, and I suspect that you are using voluntary childlessness as a Trojan horse to undermine the positions generally held by Dalrock and contributors to and readers of the site. Sorry.
@Opus
Fair enough. I thought we were heading down the road towards an actual intelligent discussion, but I guess I was wrong. Call me what you wish, but rest assured I am an actual man and my intentions were genuine from the start. Everything I posted here was 100% honest and I was ready to bow out of the discussion before I was encouraged to stay by greyghost and perspective. I was even accused of crapping on the carpet an leaving by Lyn87 who happens to share my views on being childfree.
If I really had an agenda to undermine the positions of readers of this site, I would have brought it up a long time ago, not days into the conversation. If I am not welcome, I would be more than happy to leave and never come back but a really thought at least a few readers here were interested in what I had to say.
@ CF Man
You are very welcome here. I personally enjoy laughing at your comments. It’s far more entertaining than anything on TV.
You married a 37 year old divorced women with tattoos. You traded your home for a warm biscuit on a cold day. And you are convinced it’s the best biscuit ever. We should all be so lucky.
I spent many years not wanting children. I decided I did indeed want a family less than two years before (at age 44) I left atheism and became Christian. Leave aside the narcissistic and patriotic/socially-responsible reasons for doing so (America and the West need more, not fewer children born into white UMC intact families from high-IQ parents).
It ultimately comes down to this IMO. We all admit that actions are far more important than are words in this life. Well, the ACTION of deliberately NOT having children during this short, fragilely uncertain life is showing that a person thinks that what they are, the combination of their genes/culture/personal development/actions, is so wretched and awful that it should not go on, let alone be propagated. THAT is the message intentionally barren people shout at God/the Universe with their entire lives as the breath of air behind that shout.
The next question to naturally arise, then, is of course “so why don’t you try to fix yourself?” (so that you judge that what you are IS now worthy of carrying on, not disappearing after your death like whispers in your sleep when living alone. The way to tell if someone has in fact improved themselves (at least in their own judgement) to not be in effect horrid wretches the world will be better off without (or at least not miss at all) once they are dead, is if they change their POV and life goals to the point that they now DO try to start a family. (Claiming credit for someone else’s reproduction, like nieces and nephews from a sibling that you visit occasionally, or even stepchildren/adoption, is IMO more than a bit like telling the IRS that since your neighbor paid taxes, that you aren’t required to pay them yourself, e.g., no, that doesn’t fly.)
Phillip Longman’s essay “The Return of Patriarchy” touches eloquently on this process.
http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2006/the_return_of_patriarchy
“To bear or not to bear, that is the question” for women. I know personally 2 couples that faced issues on childlessness.
COUPLE 1: My cousin (Husband) & wife agreed not to have children in their late 20’s early 30’s..Wife was working at a day care and was sick of seeing children, let alone seeing one of them at home after work. Then one year, in her late 30’s early 40’s, she had the baby-rabies. Tried desperately, spent over $70k on IVF..Nothing! Went into a depression. Had to now live childless and have twangs of pain when mentioning anything about the topic.
COUPLE 2: My friend and his wife married late 20’s. Wife just DOES NOT want children. Even now in her early 30’s, DON’T WANT CHILDREN. Husband does but is ok with her decision, which was made before marriage (to her credit). To this day, still does not want children, but who knows if the switch may get triggered.
No offence to CF or Lyn or Michael Singer, but I think Lyn87 is correct by stating that people that way are hard-wired ‘differently’ than the masses. No amount of conditioning can change that. And then there are others that are in denial and have good sociopathic skills to hide it from the true CF people (however small the CF numbers are – IMO – no stats).
I myself am childless and it was by procrastination – working to make $$$ (successful) but not to make a life (I made mistakes in ignoring my internal drives & relationships, and there were lots of opportunities in the past) – and it was the feminist movement that contaminated my mind (I truly believe that) – “be nice” – “no you can’t f#ck her because you’ll take advantage of her”. Women in North America (US & CANADA) even in their early 30’s are still very solipsistic. They say they want a good provider but they truly want is their former alpha’s to rekindle old relationships. Only when hit in their mid-to-late 30’s do they change. Only when their looks starts to fade and men are stopping paying attention to them do they change. I have personally seen this too on many attractive women from the past. But by then, they have nothing to offer a successful man…Truly they don’t. Sure they are f@ckable (and plenty of dry-f@cks oh yes, plenty), but to be with them in a committed relationship without a child with my DNA, I can never do it. BUT ALAS, THERE ARE PLENTY OF LONELY MEN WHO WOULD. I have seen it!
Too bad we were not back in the old Roman days, when women were virtuous everywhere and whores were hidden in whore-houses, and MEN WERE TAUGHT TO BE MEN. Today, men are taught to be like women, women are taught to be like men, sluts are everywhere and virtuous women are hidden in places where no man can find them.
@CF wo(Man)
If want to put on the rose colored glassed and buy into the all encompassing panacea that the American woman is evolving out the “maternal baby rabies” – that is your marketing delusion.
There is a reason for everything.
There are “exception to the rules” and to suggest that “exception to the rules of women that do not want children ” is from education, higher income (ie increased opportunities ) is unfounded and unreasonable.
Regarding “exception to the rules” and they are quite disciplined and deliberate (this is coming from a man who waited till marriage regarding values) and in my late 40’s with a 6/8 pack due to diet/exercise/lifestyle (physical, mental). It takes a quite a bit of resolve/discipline to override instinct and drives.
To suggest the typical immoral/undisciplined American women has evolved out out maternal baby rabies while abortion rates are decreasing and births to unmarried women is increasing in a society that has contraceptives and sex education is unfounded and unreasonable – this cannot be refuted by any reasonable person.
“do with women who DO NOT WANT CHILDREN” – I HEAR AND UNDERSTAND YOU – GET IT ?
However you are missing what I am simply stating.
If a woman says doesnt want chidlren – then she is unable to or lying (comission or omission) – GET IT ?
As mentioned there are “exception to the rules” but that number is very very very very very very very very very small – world history show that – this cannot be refuted and has been for a very specific purpose such as the religious orders.
What I am simply suggesting is due to increased opportunity which has decreased morals of America women and afforded them opportunity of contraception & abortion on demand has left women carrying the side effects of the inability to conceive on demand as well as decrease their window to find partners who will marry them.
~Shalom
@CF (wo)Man “I just noticed the little shot at me by adding (wo) to my name and calling me a woman.”
This was intentional. Given your logic, reasoning ability, methodology, tactic, and “flavor/styler” – it strongly resembles many a irrational conversation with a typical American woman.
Since I do not have the opportunity to see the gender given the medium – it is a honest “gut guess” of which I may be mistaken but I dont think I am. If I am – it would not be the first time and nor the last.
Arrg! I wrote a comment and it disappeared. I will assume operator error on my part, in which case I may have sent it into moderation purgatory. It may appear, but in case it does not:
CF Man,
I apologize for my “crapping on the carpet” comment. Your initial posts fit the paradigm of feminist carpet-crappers who drop by from time to time. It is now clear to me that I put you in that category with insufficient cause, and I withdraw it in light of your more recent posts. There are surely areas where we agree (CFBC) and others where we would disagree (theology), but I recognize a skilled debater when I see one.
CF Man
I agree with Lyn87`s stance on you being a skilled debater, but I respectfully disagree that some of your earlier posts ever fell into “feminist carpet-crapper“ territory. I think you`ve done a good job throughout this thread presenting your stance, but it seems as though some of whom you`ve debated with are just not ever going to accept or believe that there actually is more than just an extremely small percentage of women who don`t ever want to have children simply because they don`t want to. To that I say, to each their own. I`ve realized that sometimes it`s just better to bow out of discussions when it`s clear that you (I mean the universal you) and the other person are just not ever going to see eye to eye. Leaving the discussion doesn`t necessarily mean the other person is right, it`s just that to stay engaged in such a debate usually means it can and often does go on indefinitely, and that the original purpose can become derailed in favor of competing for the last words. This can get tiring; unless you just really enjoy the debate.
In response to your comment below to one of the other posters which was,
“If I really had an agenda to undermine the positions of readers of this site, I would have brought it up a long time ago, not days into the conversation. If I am not welcome, I would be more than happy to leave and never come back but a really thought at least a few readers here were interested in what I had to say.“
As I said before, it`s obviously up to you if you stay or not, it`s not like you need permission. Accusations of trolling to those with dissenting views and telling them they`re not welcome just seem to be part of the territory in the sphere, so I would just take such comments in stride. As long as you`re not disrespecting anyone, and the blog master (Dalrock) doesn`t actually ban you, then I see no reason to stop posting if you wish to continue. Regardless of your choice, best of luck.
@CF (wo)Man “Please provide me with the study data that proves maternal instinct is a real phenomenon. I can show you at least one scientist who says otherwise.”
False premise & Red herring and dishonest (typical female)
Maternal instinct is not a “phenomenon” it is “hard wired instinct”.
Here is a rather insightful & credible research paper on Voluntary, Involuntary and Temporary Childlessness in the United States that cites U.S. Bureau of the Census and published studies that was presented for review at the Princeton hosted ” Population Association of America 2013 Annual Meeting” ( this is where all the key opinion leaders / thought leaders attend ). In review of the data, findings, and credibility this is very good in the regards they are simply showing the data, controls, and outcomes in a inductive manner of reasoning (ie the data speaks for itself) rather than your scientist opinion (as side not – unless they are incredibly noted/published/lauded – their opinion is debatable & worthless since it is mere speculation)
Any “survey” or a quote from a “single scientist” that contradicts sound reason and hard data better better have something a bit more convincing.
Here is a interesting tidbit from below that is backed up and reasonable (I could go a bit deeper with stats & outcomesbe gentle since chances are I am treading in a rather emotional “mine field” and dont wish to distress a woman on this rather delicate topic in addition to being off topic regarding the original blog.
“The work of Veevers (1973) is especially applicable in this regard. In her studies of voluntarily
childless wives, she showed that two-thirds of the childless women in her sample did
not decide on childlessness prior to marriage, but “remained childless as a result of
decisions to postpone having children until some future time, a future which never
came” (1973: 359).”
I could go a quite a bit deeper w/data but as Opus eloquently confirmed it is quite obvious you are a woman and attempting to justify the decision as a deliberate choice vs. the corner you painted yourself into.
Here you go..
http://paa2013.princeton.edu/papers/131904
Mikesinger, your lastt post’s point about most lifelong childless women not originally specifically intending to end up that way is supported by the data in Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s book “Creating A Life”. For example, only 14% of women earning over 100k/yr who were childless at some menopausal age (48?) always knew they definitely did not want children. Instead, she found widespread regret among those women about their situation, similar to many who only managed one child before the age portcullis slammed down on them once and for all. Repeatedly, U.S. women overestimate how long they can delay having children by 10-15 years over the actual. Plus, high earnings are negatively associated with fertility in women, the opposite for men.
CF (wo)Man “Please provide me with the study data that proves maternal instinct is a real phenomenon. I can show you at least one scientist who says otherwise.”
Troll …
50 year old marries a 37 tattooed hag …. troll bait …
Pretty much everything CF (wo)Man’s posted so far is pure troll bait, stop feeding the guy … lol
Seriously the hilarity in his posts gets worse everytime CF (wo)Man opens his yap …
My lap-top seems to be behaving somewhat better today (although it may be me).
Even so, this thread – a thread it should be remembered merely about the best way for a woman in her thirties, should she be minded to, to go about attracting a man – has now garnered no less than One thousand three hundred and fifty six comments (1,356). The principal reason for that in itself remarkable fact is that it is clearly Kryptonite to certain women and cat-nip to their Hamsters. As always with such women they always succeed in making the thread about themselves and their Vaginas, even as they lob-off insults at the regular commenters – as if it is all Deti’s fault that they are past their best-before date. Somewhere, now way up above, such that I doubt I could even locate it, I listed by number of posts all those women who had come here to explain that Dalrock was wrong. I seem to recall that there were over thirty such women even then. That number has continued to grow. Along the way however a few men have also chipped in, such as most recently CFMan whose earliest post at 09.58 am on the 18th July began: ‘I love how all of the guys on here think that they know what every other guy in the world wants in a woman’. Now, I don’t think it can be laid at Dalrock’s door that he ever implied that he was speaking for all men’s taste, nor could the same criticism be levelled at Deti’s expanded list of desirable qualities – there may well be some Brad Pitt look-alike out there who prefers women who are fat old and ugly – though I rather doubt it. The fact that a man may – wisely or not – settle for what he can get or what he thinks he can get, should not be confused with the perennial desire for youth, fertility and beauty. As Dalrock wrote ‘it is about getting the most bang for your SMV buck’. CFMan however (and like so many of the women) makes it all about himself, and in his opening off-hand assertion managed at the same time to get in an insult at the commenters here. Getting the backs of the commenters up, is a pretty good indication that his purpose as Lyn 87 put it is to be a ‘carpet crapper’. This thread is not, as I indicated, about voluntarily avoiding parenthood and it is instructive to compare the way this thread has gone with say in comparison the present lead thread on Domestic Violence to see how well a Dalrock thread can develop: on topic, in an at all times constructive manner, and without it all being about any one particular contributor.
To those who supported me posting here, or at least acknowledged my ability to debate. That is all that’s really important to me. I learned a long time ago that the goal of a good debate is not to convince your opponent of your views, but to convince others who are looking at the debate from a more objective position. Like I have stated many times before, my goal in posting here is to make sure CF women and men are properly represented. People reading this who have not been consumed by anti-feminist views presented here will see my posts for what they are worth. Others will call me a troll and dismiss what I have to say. To that I shrug my shoulders and continue on.
@Lyn87
No offense taken.
@Michael
I have thoroughly enjoyed laughing at your post as well, so if I stay, don’t think it’s for your benefit alone.
@mikesinger
You have yourself so convinced that I am not who I say I am that you fail to realize that the data you presented in your most recent post actually supports my argument. As someone who is a self-proclaimed expert on statistical analysis, I fail to see how you can still speak in nearly absolute terms (99.999999%) when the data presented clearly shows otherwise. I don’t know what color glasses you are wearing when looking at the world, but I suspect they are more heavily tinted than my own.
Your constant repetition of your claim “If a woman says she doesn’t want children – then she is unable or lying” while at the same time presenting data to the contrary shows just how biased you are. For the record, my logic and reasoning ability stem from the fact that I am a systems engineer with a degree in electrical engineering. I just don’t feel the need to repeatedly throw my credentials around to prove a point like you are so quick to do.
I would love for you to dig a bit deeper regarding the stats on the study you posted, because I did exactly that and found more data supporting my claim. I find it very hard to believe that you held back because you were afraid of causing distress to women. If that were the case, you probably wouldn’t be posting here in the first place.
From the study you posted, Figure 1 shows a breakdown of women categorized by type of childlessness.
Total Sample: 6850
585 were found to have no intend to have children while retaining the ability to do so and another 44 were sterile due to operations specifically intended for contraceptive reasons, for a total of 629. That is nearly 10% of the total who are voluntarily remaining childless. Based on your estimate 99.9999999%, you are off by a factor of 100 million! In your expert opinion, would you say that a factor of 100 million is statistically significant? If you would drop the BS, take a serious look at what both of us have to say, you might be able to see that it is the way you are stating your claims that I take issue with. You want everyone else to back up their claims with hard data, but you don’t hold yourself to the same standard. Just admit that your original statement is flawed, or at least should be modified to include the significant number of outliers which you seem content in repeatedly ignoring.
The Veevers study from the early 70’s is antiquated and even Veevers states as an opening paragraph “Although this research is exploratory in nature, and its conclusions are tentative, some of the implications are directly relevant to the on-going debates concerning the social meanings of parenthood, and the relative merits of personal freedom to procreate versus personal peril from unlimited population growth.”
Why don’t you take a look at this much more recent study which examined the Veevers data from 1973. “Since 1973, a large amount of research time has been devoted to examining the voluntarily childless”
http://www.spi.ox.ac.uk/fileadmin/documents/pdf/Childlessness_-_Number_5.pdf
The second major theoretical perspective, leading from the first, involves the separation
of „femininity‟ from „motherhood‟. Traditional perspectives, of course, see the two as inseparable (Balmer 1994), with Russo coining the term „motherhood mandate‟ in 1976 to
reflect the prevailing view (Russo 1976). Failing to reproduce means a female is „defective‟ and has not developed properly‟ (Hird 2003). While some evidence suggests this view is on the decline (Ryder 1990), the role of motherhood to female identity is still widely perceived as
central (Ireland 1993; May 1995).
——————————
The views on CFBC people and motherhood are changing, although not surprisingly they remain the same in this group of men who hold true to the traditional marriage roles. This is the fundamental difference that we have and why we will never come to a consensus. Call me what you will, but I do not want a submissive wife who matches the set of ideals put in place on this site. The repeated “HA HA, you married a 37 year old with tattoos” is getting old. I know who I married and I am happy with that decision. The fact is, I can go home and enjoy every moment I spend with my wife and she is more to me than a trophy, sex object and baby factory. Men on this site don’t seem to fall into that extreme of a belief system, but I have encountered plenty of men in the “manosphere” who do feel exactly this way. I don’t buy into the market value bullshit when looking for a person to spend my life with. I want someone who I can actually enjoy a life with. Continue to throw statistics at me and point out the red flags in my relationship while sitting around waiting for an ideal woman to walk into your life and I will go home, day after day, to a happy marriage.
@Luke
Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s book is just as biased as the data from the book I posted earlier, and even it supports what I have been saying the whole time. 14% is a huge number compared to what is being claimed here.
Since I Have not, and do not care to, read her book I found some admittedly biased reviews from amazon. Where the book currently has more 1 star ratings than 5 star.
“Ms. Hewlett’s book reminds me of that discredited Harvard-Yale marriage study in the 80s that said women needed to marry early, or not find husbands.
Hewlett’s data has been soundly criticized in the press. Fortune, among others, found her data (one small study of 500 women!) to be way off base.
Family size has been declining for generations in all industrialized nations, as women’s opportunities have opened up in education and work. How one feels about this change probably has a lot to do with one’s politics and preferences. Hewlett’s is clear: she’s a Mom of five. Good for her, but if her intention was to get other women to act more like her, why not write a book about how happy she is about her life choices—rather than generalize from a set of flawed data, purporting to “help” young women “plan” to have babies early?
“Scare” young women is more like it. Just like that debunked Harvard-Yale study, and putting forth frightening “facts” and biased journalism is just plain obnoxious.”
—————
Hewlett’s claim that she wanted to write a book about successful women and then uncovered the tragedy of how many of them ‘forgot’ to have children is disingenuous. She has an ax to grind – she can’t stand the fact that some women haven’t reproduced (the author herself just HAD to have a baby at age 51 despite her husband’s reluctance). So she gathers data from discredited studies, asks misleading questions, and then draws her so-called conclusions. For instance, she says only 14% of women she surveyed wanted to be childless yet almost 50% of those surveyed were. Therefore, there must be large numbers of women yearning to have kids but who just haven’t. Yet she arrived at that ‘conclusion’ by asking women if, while they were in college, they thought they would have children. But, interestingly, she does NOT ask them if they still think they want children (if she had and the numbers were the same, she might actually have had a real piece of data!). She just assumes they do and, q.e.d. they’re unhappy and unfulfilled. Wouldn’t it have made sense for her next question to be, “Now that you’re older, do you still think you’d like to have children?” The fact she didn’t ask seems to me to indicate she realized a lot of the women in her survey would have said “no;” so she took her “when you were in college” question and leaped to the conclusions she had already decided upon.
Too bad this author gets so much spotlight. She has so little to say, and no data to support it.
————-
It does not surprise me that a reader of this site would push a book like this. This book is further proof to what mike singer said earlier (Yes, I am agreeing with something he said) about how biased surveys done by authors with a book to sell can be. In that light, let’s remove that data I presented from the discussion since there has been more than enough evidence presented here since then to support my claims.
@Opus
I understand how far off topic we have come. If I redacted the first sentence in my original post, would your views of me change? I had no idea that I would be getting into a heated debate about the CFBC lifestyle when I posted that. My intention was to provide an alternative view of what men may want. While I recognize now that you are not here to claim to know what all men want, many here do seem to claim to know and understand how all women work and think. And that is my biggest issue with what is being said here. In one breathe people say that we are dealing with generalities and in the next will claim that ALL women are a certain way. You can’t have it both ways. Perhaps NAWALT is more true than you are willing to believe.
@ CF Man, Mikesinger
We’ve wondered a long way into the cornfield on our way to the outhouse, haven’t we?
As Opus pointed out, the thread here is ‘Advice to a Woman in her 30s Looking to Marry’.
Not sure how this got to be so hotly debated, the idea of women wanting/not wanting children. If we could return to centre here for a moment; perhaps some common ground can be found?
For women who want to marry & have children (for the record, I believe they are in the substantial majority) perhaps…….just PERHAPS, it is a DAMN good idea not to push that event off into your late 30s early 40s.
Certainly science has clearly demonstrated the increased risk to the child in pushing pregnancy out to that age. (I know; I’m an evil monster for DARING to state the obvious). Women who find this statement offensive, grow up!
For men & women who don’t want children……I guess this is a non-issue as to when you meet/get married. However, I’ll wager attraction is still a significant part of both parties ‘scorecard’ on getting into a relationship.
The older a woman grows, the less likely she will remain attractive to a man her same age.
I think that is particularly so if the parties DO NOT want children, with that contract covenant removed; the woman may need to go OLDER to find a man who doesn’t want children; and the man will look for younger (as he instinctively does if the plumbing is functional).
If I recall correctly, someone stated CF Man is 50, and is wife is 37? That sounds like proof positive to me.
To those who decide they truly do not want children (Perspective, CFMan, etc.) then I would give my best to you in the life you’ve chosen.
To those who women who WANT to get married & have children…….you’d better get to work.
@mikesinger
rather than your scientist opinion (as side not – unless they are incredibly noted/published/lauded – their opinion is debatable & worthless since it is mere speculation)
The scientist I quoted is incredibly noted, published and lauded.
Education
Radcliffe College, A.B. (summa cum laude), 1969
Harvard University, Ph.D. (Anthropology), 1975
HonoraryDegrees
Honorary Doctorate (Science), Harvard University, June 4, 2009. [PDF]
Honorary Doctorate (Humanistics), University of Humanistics, Utrecht, January 29, 2009
Her list of publications and peer reviewed studies is far too long to post here, but you can see for yourself if you like.
http://ihhr.asu.edu/OHU/18.pdf
Whoever said I was 50 was incorrect. I am 34 (nearly 35) and my wife is currently (gasp) 40! She was 37 when we met.
@ CFMan
I think your last reply was directed at me, not Mikesinger, if you need to……..direct your response at me.
For the record, I am NOT attacking you. So shields down, my friend.
The person who said you were 50 was ‘rmaxgenactivepua’ @ July 26, 2013 at 5:49 am
I haven’t read all of your posts back and forth with Opus & Mikesinger……as they don’t interest me and are off topic.
Let’s agree you can come up with a scientific opinion that delaying children into your 40s as being ‘Neutral’ to the health of a child.
Let’s also agree that I could counter with one that says the risk of autism, developmentally delayed, & intellectual disabilities go up significantly.
That’s a DRAW.
So it comes down to what EACH of us personally believes to be so. I personally believe the latter, because it intuitively makes sense to me.
So, I have to ask………if you do not want children; why are you so vested in this topic about how LATE you can safely have children?
Peace .
@Casey
He’s not saying delaying children is healthy, he’s saying women have no maternal instincts … lol
CF (wo)Man “Please provide me with the study data that proves maternal instinct is a real phenomenon. I can show you at least one scientist who says otherwise.”
Sometimes people get it right: Folks, isn’t this what we ALL really want? —
“A husband and wife who were born on the same day and celebrated their 75th wedding anniversary last year have died just a day apart. The couple’s son Les Brown Jr said that 94-year-old Helen Brown died on July 16 and 94-year-old Les Brown died on July 17 in southern California….The Browns were born on New Year’s Eve in 1918. They met in high school and became teenage sweethearts before eloping in 1937 at the age 18.”
However, Red Pil wisdom intrudes, even here–
The couple eloped because their parents thought the marriage between a wealthy man and a working-class woman would never last.
Of course it lasted. Wealthy man + working class woman = Hypergamy.
Source:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2378717/Couple-born-day-eloped-parents-did-want-marry-die-just-day-apart-75-years-wedded-bliss.html
@van Rooinek – I bet the bride in question was a virgin and remained faithful to him all her life.
At the risk of inching back toward to the topic of the thread (/hat-tip to Casey), it is incontrovertible that a non-trivial percentage of women of child-bearing age do not wish to become mothers. We can say that without the slightest fear of contradiction based on the following facts: 1) infertility among pre-menopausal women is relatively rare, 2) the social safety net makes bearing bastards a viable “career choice” for women, and 3) any slag can find somebody willing to shag her. If a woman doesn’t have children in this day and age it is entirely because she doesn’t want them enough to have them – at least for the moment.
Whether they are truly CFBC (like my wife and CF Man’s wife), or either infertile or lying to their partners or themselves (which mikeslinger claims is the case for – literally – all but four women in the entire world), is largely immaterial. The reason for that is that a woman’s window of “good” fertility is maaaaaybe two decades. Whether a woman get a world-class case of Mad-Cow Baby Rabies after that window is closed is a moot point, since she is functionally the same as a woman who has hated children with a purple passion from the day she was born – the result is the same either way. No amount of post-menopausal regret will “reset” her uterus.
Since the thread is about advice to women at the end of (or beyond) their fertility window anyway, we’re reduced to discussing a small-group-within-a-small-group: fertile unmarried women over 30. The breeding preferences of a woman past menopause is immaterial: nature has made the decision for her, and the answer is a resounding, “NO!” The question becomes whether a man seeking marriage to a woman over 30 wants his wife to bear his children. Some will, some will not. Some of those who will not already have kids and don’t want more, in which case a CFBC woman might be the one who backs away (a woman who doesn’t want her own children is unlikely to want to raise someone else’s). By the same token, a CFBC woman might be willing to marry a father who does not have primary custody.
Life involves trade-offs – if you put things off you may not get to change your mind later. You may regret your decisions no matter which way you go. The “good” is sometimes the enemy of the “great.”
I’m happy with my decisions (but then again I’m a freak of nature), and I know that many CFBC are as well. I also know plenty of parents with profound regrets. The obverse is also true in both cases. As long as people are honest with each other we can all make informed decisions… and then live with the consequences.
John Deigh says: uly 26, 2013 at 10:55 am
@van Rooinek – I bet the bride in question was a virgin and remained faithful to him all her life.
Agreed. And I’ll bet the groom was also a virgin, and remained faithful for like.
Um.. typo… faithful for liFe….
@Casey
My reply regarding the status of the scientist I quoted was correctly directed to mikesinger. The last line was tacked on after the fact and was not directed at anyone in particular, just clarifying incorrect information which was stated about me.
I never made any claims regarding the age at which it is safe to have children, so I’m really not sure where that is coming from. You admit to not reading all of my posts, so perhaps you are mixing up what others have said with my words.
@rmaxgenactivepua
I never stated that “women do not have maternal instincts” because I would never make a statement of that magnitude in absolute terms. What I did is provide evidence showing that instinct may very well be more learned than innate. If you disagree, take it up with Dr. Sarah Blaffer Hrdy, not with me.
Asking for proof of something is not necessarily a rejection of those claims, so like I have told others here before you, please do not put words in my mouth.
@CF(wo)Man
“CFBC people and motherhood are changing” & The Veevers study from the early 70′s is antiquated ‘
Yawn !!!
I think you missed the “U.S. Bureau of the Census, 2010” and for reference – studies are not dismissed due to age (stupidity to the nth degree here) to be dismissed they have to be found faulty or disproven. As mentioned, your scientific source is a opinion / viewpoint.
Given your reasoning- your a atheist and dont believe in the bible.Well. a lot more people read & believe in the bible (most published/read book in the world)- so you should believe in it also. When I was referring to a credible scientist – it is in the league of Linus Pauling etc…
Your portrayal of “CFBC” is not a true nor accurate.
There is always a reason as you mentioned why you and your husband did not choose to have children.
Given the information provided regarding history, morality, and lifestyle allow me to suggest that there was quite a bit of duress that leveraged “by choice” of the CFBC as well as other women.
This CFBC “from” a womans point of view is simply a “thin veneer” given previous events and decisions that are vast and damaging.
Given current stats of HepB & C, Herpes, (and other factors) and morals values that you have shared, and a little bit of insight in your “situation” – I am quite sure your “CFBC” was a forced duress decision due from previous decisions and therefore “CFBFU”.
You can jump up & down insisting a woman is not “damaged goods” who doesn’t want children due to her resounding disciplined decision – I say politely say BS.
@michaelsinger
I have kept my grammar nazi card in my back pocket until now, but please for the love of god learn to use the word “an”. Reading your rants is making my head hurt.
You just love pointing out what I have missed, when I really didn’t miss anything. My assertion that the Veevers study was antiquated was not based simply on its date, but on more recent studies which stated:
“Research into this topic has moved on enormously since Veevers‟ complaint of „selective
ignorance‟ in the 1970s (Veevers 1973) and, if the „Low Fertility Trap‟ is indeed in action, the
rapid changes in attitudes towards, and rates of, childlessness will continue to change rapidly
(Lutz, Skirbekk et al. 2006). As such, further research into this field is crucial.”
I also stated that this data did not detract from my argument, so I fail to see your point either way.
So please stop with the childish insults.
I’m not sure what your line about the bible was getting at. Just because something is widely read and accepted, doesn’t make it true. At one point in time we all thought the earth was flat and some people are still gullible enough to believe that it was created 6000 years ago.
I appreciate your wonderful insight into my situation which you know nothing about, but please don’t classify your words to me as polite.
CF (wo)Man “Call me what you will, but I do not want a submissive wife who matches the set of ideals put in place on this site.”
Would this be a male to female transgender or metabolic disorder ? (this is meant as honest observation) ?
If not, where you beaten by your father or raised by a single mother ?
Are you “fully functioning”, checked your testosterone/pituitary levels checked ?
“infertility among pre-menopausal women is relatively rare”
12% is the figure I saw last. “Rare” is defined (statistically) as 1/2000.
@mikesinger
I’m not even sure what you are asking in your first question.
Never been beaten, my parents are still together today. Grew up in a perfectly normal and happy household in a fairly affluent neighborhood. Haven’t had my levels checked, but I am 6′ ~230lbs, have a perfectly normal sex drive, thick facial hair, can squat over 400lbs and deadlift the same, so I don’t think I have a problem in that area.
Any other misplaced assumptions you would like me to respond to?
CF man
I get no kids. Tell us about the women in the CF community and rate their physical appearance.
@greyghost
Just like any group of people, they are varied. Some very attractive and some not so much. I would say they fit into the normal distribution from what I have seen.
It may go against what you guys are looking for, but looks are just not my #1 criteria in a woman. And, no this does not automatically mean that I am with someone who is unattractive, because I’m sure that’s the next conclusion many of you are jumping to. Looks are important to me and I am very attracted to my wife, but if that was all there was to our relationship I wouldn’t expect it to last. Unless you plan on jumping around from one young woman to the next for the rest of your life, looks will eventually fade in your partner. If that truly was the most important factor in your decision to be with that person, I feel sorry for you as you grow older together. Or perhaps (pure speculation, so don’t ask for studies to back this up) the relationship will eventually shift focus towards children because there is nothing but the superficial between the husband and wife and they need something in common between each other. I really have no idea what is going on in the minds of the typical guys who post on this site because I am not like you in any way.
Sure, everyone wants an attractive wife who can satisfy their sex drive, this much is obvious and pretty much universal. But the whole submissive angle just doesn’t do it for me and I honestly don’t see the appeal. If that is your thing, more power to you, but don’t complain when you find yourself in a failed marriage because your wife hit “the wall”, a wrinkle showed up on her face, her ass is not quite as firm as is was when she was 20 and you no longer find her desirable. If looks were all she had to offer you from day 1, what do you have worth holding on to?
First of all, there is no commonly-accepted definition for words like rare, common, or unlikely among statisticians. There is certainly no such definition for “relatively rare,” which is what I wrote.
If we’re going to insist that everything everyone here writes adheres to the most strict possible use of each term according to some ambiguous definition you vaguely recall from Statistics 101, then we’re all going to be in a lot of trouble – you included. When I wrote “relatively rare” I meant it in the way the phrase is commonly used. If you’re going to argue about statistics, then your first challenge is mikeslinger’s contention that 99.9999999% of women want to bear their own biological offspring.
Anyway, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Office of Women’s Health:
Subtracting out the fertility problems due solely to the male partner, female infertility is less than 7% (about half what you said). Here’s the HHS link (http://www.womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/infertility.cfm#b).
Since more than 93% of U.S. women of child-bearing age have no infertility issues at all, it is certainly fair for me to say that infertility is relatively rare for purposes of this discussion. The point was that, since 93%+ of women CAN give birth during their fertile years, while only about 81% DO give birth during that time, AND women have 100% reproductive freedom (including substantial economic benefits available to all mothers), the idea that only one-woman-in-a-BILLION is Child-Free By Choice (which is mikeslinger’s contention) is nonsense on stilts.
Can we get back to the topic at hand now?
van Rooinek said Sometimes people get it right: Folks, isn’t this what we ALL really want? –
Yes, I dare say that it is. Amazing, isn’t it, from today’s perspective, to think that this was once the NORM, although certainly not with the life longevity that was the case with this particular couple. What I find particularly eye-opening is that when my wife and I tell people we’re just getting acquainted with that we’ve been married for a “mere” 20 years, they look at us with amazement, as if it is an accomplishment equal to the three-quarter-century mark the Browns reached.
Tragic.
I notice that in support of his position the child-deprived one refers to an anthropologist by the rather odd name of Hrdy (a woman) who has decided that mothering is not instinctual but learned. I might have guessed that such an academic existed, but even were I to learn that every University in the West had an academic with similar views that would not impress me in the least, but merely persuade me that Academia is every bit as full of prejudice and gullibility as I have long considered it to be.
@ Opus
Agreed, just because you are published……doesn’t mean you are credible.
It just means you are towing the party line; in this case, feminism.
Seriously, this is the same academia that gave us gender studies. Hardly fair & balanced.
@CF (wo)Man – For giggles 🙂
” 6′ ~230lbs, have a perfectly normal sex drive, thick facial hair, can squat over 400lbs”
If that is a gauge for masculinity then late 40’s, 5’11 @ 175lbs and free bar squat 500 lbs for 3 sets w/o a belt ( set a limit to 500lbs due to age).
“love of G_d learn to use the word “an & “Grew up in a perfectly normal and happy household ”
Ok, if you say so.
Thank you for show clearly you are a woman masquerading as a man ( ie troll).
“please don’t classify your words to me as polite.”
Well please don’t:
– Red herring CFBC vs maternal instinct
– Suggest that “CFBC” doesn’t contain duress decisions and discount “CFBFU”.
– Masquerade as a white knight male insisting a woman is not “damaged goods” who doesn’t want children due to it is her choice and the consequences of her previous actions/lifestyle having NOTHING to do with it.
– Have a double standard
If you want to figuratively “cross dress” as a troll and suggest and suggest as a male and you prefer women who are fat old and ugly and insult – that is your business and expect to be called out for it chic.
If you really are a man and this bothers you then allow me to suggest getting some testicular fortitude and intellectual honesty since you have clearly stated you have none.
@Opus
Talk about off topic. You are attacking this woman because of her odd name, which happens to be her married name. What does that have to do with anything being discussed here?
I doubt she randomly decided that mothering was a learned trait, and that’s really not an accurate description of her position anyway. If you read beyond the first sentence you would see that she does believe maternal response exists, just not exactly in the way we think it does. She also happens to have 3 children of her own, so she’s not a bitter old hag who wishes she could have kids looking to make excuses for herself.
I also don’t hold a position on maternal instinct and do feel that MOST women probably are hard wired to want to have children. I simply asked for proof it existed and was given a bs answer and told:
“False premise & Red herring and dishonest (typical female) Maternal instinct is not a “phenomenon” it is “hard wired instinct”.
But I still have not seen the studies to show it’s actually true. If it is so blatantly obvious and absolutely true, it should be easy to find data to back it up. I searched and could find none, which is why I posed the question to begin. In the process of my search I discovered the study that I linked to showing an alternate theory to what is commonly accepted as true without question.
Your attempts to paint me as a feminist with an agenda are failing. I would honestly like to see this data if it does exist.
@mike singer
Excuse me, but I think your insecurity is showing. This isn’t a masculinity contest, because clearly you would be the winner here. You are obviously the more macho man here. I was simply offering some evidence of my normal testosterone levels. Wow, you are sensitive.
Your desperation to discredit me is just seething out of everything you post. Each post contains more and more lies about what I have said. I have literally done nothing that you are accusing me of.
– See my previous post for the red herring explanation.
– Please point out to the audience where I said a single word about duress decisions.
– Please point out to the audience where I uttered the words “damaged goods”.
– I am a man, so this point has zero merit.
– Not sure what double standard you are referring to here, please explain
– Please point out where I said I prefer women who are fat, old and ugly
This doesn’t bother me at all. I find it great entertainment and good writing practice. I have received multiple complements on my debating skills from members of this site and you continue to shout the same crap at me over and over and over again. If you really are saying you believe your own lies about 99.9999999% of women lying or not being able to have kids, even after it has been thoroughly disproved by multiple people here, you are the one who needs some intellectual honestly.
CF(wo)Man “Maternal instinct is not a “phenomenon” it is “hard wired instinct”. But I still have not seen the studies.”
– People knew 6000 years ago before studies that reproduction was intercourse between a man and woman.
– Regarding maternal instinct and delaying childbirth (+ 40 year are the ONLY growing class in this study ). Wow – older women who are the highest risk/lowest fertility are the only ones that show a increase in childbirth. How can this be ???
Fertility Declines for All Women, Except Those Ages 40 and Older, 2008 to 2009 (pg 4)
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2011/10/REVISITING-FERTILITY-AND-THE-RECESSION-FINAL.pdf
As a whole, studies / data require time / money, effort discovering / refining the unknown not the known.
@CF (wo)Men -Since you asked
– To the best of my recollection your debating skills were complemented by women.
– You have revealed yourself as a woman(troll) as noted by other men due to the inability to reason, inability by inference to connect the dots, blatant double standard among MANY other female traits ( LOL – do you need to see “a study” for those female traits as well ?)
Fyi, here is a example.
– You presented “a survey” of 400 from a author of a book and then a scientist as credible/reliable source while demanding a “studies” in return.
The double standard is breathtaking and hypocritical and typically female.
In addition, the whole testosterone levels information went way over you your head as did the masculine call.
You bit the bait for lack of better words ole girl 🙂
No surprise CF (wo)Man backpedalling on his asking for proof of maternal instincts lol
CF (wo)Man “Please provide me with the study data that proves maternal instinct is a real phenomenon. I can show you at least one scientist who says otherwise.”
Oh good grief… Masculinity is now determined by an immutable characteristic (height) and how much of a gym rat a guy is?
If any of you have ever seen the movie Black Hawk Down, it depicts the actual events that happened in the Battle of Mogadishu on 3-4 October 1993. Take a look at the excerpts:
One particularly hairy and gruesome scene that’s not in that clip centers around one particular guy from the 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment. He survived (19 guys didn’t), and several years later that same guy worked for me in Afghanistan… he’s a funny bastard that used to just randomly start singing the “Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy” song from the “Ren and Stimpy” cartoon to crack me up.
He didn’t seem like the kind of guy who could lift a quarter-ton (Look Mommy: No Belt!)… nor was he particularly tall, so I guess he wasn’t much of a man. / sarc.
Damn CF Man just asking a light hearted and get all insulting. You take yourself way too serious. Go ahead and call me mutha fucka and I won’t post to you again.
Does anyone (apart from myself) recall the scene from Hitchcock’s 1964 movie Marnie, concerning the instinctual behaviour of the Jagwarandi. Of course, Sean Connery’s character is far more interested in the instinctual behaviour of ‘Tippi Hedron than the stuffed and fearsome looking Jagwarandi itself. Strange film: Connery knows that Hedron is a lieing thief, and more or less anti-sexual, but still marries her, more or less against her wishes, and seems largely determined to ascertain her secret, that is to say knowledge of her past. In Lacanian terms he is looking for the ‘objet petit a’ which either does not exist or is merely excrement. Strange man that Mr Hitchcock.
@michael singer
It’s obvious that I have been labeled a troll by you and there probably isn’t anything I can say to change your mind on that, so it’s time to stop pulling punches and tell you what I’m really thinking.
Humans have a drive to have sex, which leads to reproduction. This is hard wired. The answer to how we as humans grew to understand reproduction is much more complex than, people just knew it.
I don’t understand why you continue to post studies about older women showing an increase in childbirth. Yes, women are delaying childbirth. Some women are also choosing to opt out completely. What exactly is your point?
Wow, you were able to come up with a single example that shows I am guilty of 1 of the 5 things you accused me of. Impressive. If you are so thoroughly convinced that I am a woman and a troll, why are you still trying so hard to prove me wrong?
Your laughable attempt to claim that I “bit the bait” on your little testosterone question is particularly amusing to me. Why do you feel the need to come back with more manly lifting stats than me? After all, if I’m just a woman it should be expected that you could lift more than I could. Do you honestly expect people to believe that you intended that as bait when you posted it? Seriousl Michael? Your need to prove your manhood has been shown multiple times throughout this thread. Gloating about what kind of shape you are in, your job, your 6/8 pack and then your impressive squat numbers. You are a shallow, fragile man who feels the need to constantly inflate his own ego.
You can’t even be man enough to admit that your ludicrous statement about the percentage of woman who are truthful about not wanting children is just made up nonsense that is so far off the mark of reality, it’s not even funny any more. You want to talk about testicular fortitude and intellectual honestly, yet you continue to grasp onto your own bullshit lies. I understand that the relationship you had with your ex-wife was difficult and I don’t take lightly the plight of a woman who desires, yet cannot have children. I get that, we all do. But you need to seek therapy, get over that relationship and stop pretending that every women in the world is like you ex, because NOT ALL WOMEN ARE LIKE THAT!
@greyghost
I answered your question honestly. The remainder of my reply was not intended to be directed at you, but to this group in general. I apologize if it came off that way. That was not a direct attack, but a response that I felt got us back onto the topic at hand. I shared my true feelings about what I desire in a woman and what I feel is lacking in the desires of many people coming here for advice. It may be slightly more complex than that, but I see looks at the top of most lists of things guys here are looking for in a woman. The obsession with “the wall” is proof enough of that.
If my post sounded defensive, that’s probably because it was, but it was not meant to be insulting. I’m just calling it as I see it. Just as everyone here has done to me. I have been criticized and ridiculed for my choice of women, tattoos, cf lifestyle and labelled as a women. But when I talk directly to the topic of the article and express my feelings about it, you deem that offensive. Talk about a double standard. Perhaps I’m not the only one taking myself too seriously around here.
@Cfman
Whats your point, you come in here bragging about bagging a tramp stamped 37 yr old, & poorly veiled justification for sinking so low lol
Your 30+ go find some hot fertile chick to pillage already, theyre all pretty much the same lol, minus the triple chins & saggy boobs
…
rmaxgenactivepua
The dude didn’t come here to discuss his lifestyle he came here to talk shit about us. what a wasted opportunity
“what a wasted opportunity”
This is one of the first true statements said about me since I got here. It’s a shame that I was forced into attack mode by a certain few members here and couldn’t have a real discussion.
If I really wanted to talk shit, I could have easily said what I said and more, a long time ago. You think quite highly of yourself if you presume that I wasted all of the time I did here just to talk shit.
lol cfman, so what did you want to talk about … be aware most of us’ve been at this for quite a few years
When it comes to relationships, marriage etc., the commentators on here know their subject matter pretty well …
Note this threads about expired women, who have a 40% chance of popping out dyslexic, biology & nature refuses to take the idiocy of gender bs sociology seriously …
How about an honest discussion about the idea of living a childfree lifestyle. I was demonized for even mentioning that, but I would think a real conversation on the topic would be very useful for a single woman in her 30s looking to marry. The article doesn’t state that it is only intended for women who are looking to marry and also have children.
How about the women out there who do want, but cannot have children? Would it not be beneficial for those women to realize that there are actually men in the world who would be accepting of their problem and who would prefer to remain childfree themselves.
I would think that would be much more productive than claiming that every woman without a child at a later stage in her life is damaged goods, pretending to not want children to save face.
As I suspected: Closet Feminist Man is here merely to proselytise by high-jacking the thread for his own private shame.
Advice to a woman in her thirties seeking to marry: improve your position, and get ahead of the competition by making it clear that a family is very much an optional extra and that you will devote your entire time to your man and with no distractions. Why didn’t I think of that earlier, and now thanks to new legislation one need not even marry someone of the opposite sex to achieve just that happy result.
Cfman. the fact is women shouldnt marry men if they dont want kids
Marriage is for kids, which is why a man slaves away for a family, something women are too lazy to do
Women want kids, but they dont want to pay for them, lazy cows
Women who expect a man to slave away for no kids are scum
Men who marry for companionship are idiots, if you dont want kids go co-habit or ltr
Giving away half of your wealth to a woman is insane
THATS precisely what you’re advocating
All you’re doing is extending the role of provider to a barren used womb, its sick
“First of all, there is no commonly-accepted definition for words like rare, common, or unlikely among statisticians. There is certainly no such definition for “relatively rare,” which is what I wrote.”
It is a definition that I have seen frequently used in studies, and is also cited in medical journals (e.g. “The Lancet”) for describing what constitutes a rare disease (I’ve seen another definition twice, both within 10% of the above). Lacking an entry in Wikipedia does not /not/ make it “commonly-accepted.” The other words you refer to are not relevant to this discussion.
“If we’re going to insist that everything everyone here writes adheres to the most strict possible use of each term according to some ambiguous definition you vaguely recall from Statistics 101”
It’s not that, actually (and it has nothing to do with what I “vaguely recall,” though I do find that comment amusing) – you are orders of magnitude off from the definition I stated. Beyond that, even 7% is not rare at all.
“Subtracting out the fertility problems due solely to the male partner, female infertility is less than 7% (about half what you said).”
So, where is the disagreement? You’re not being entirely consistent in making your point (e.g. shifting definitions). Of course, in your defense, we haven’t really agreed on definitions of infertility (current or lifetime, primary or secondary, infertility or sub-fecundity, individual or couple, etc) or the regions/countries and/or development status, and so forth.
“If you’re going to argue about statistics, then your first challenge is mikeslinger’s contention that 99.9999999% of women want to bear their own biological offspring.”
I believe you are taking hyperbole (or should that be hypobole?) far too seriously.
Up above Deti gives a list of tells for sluts – things which are generally undesirable in a woman, and I have just recalled another one which I do not recall that he mentions; a very obvious one too, namely tanning. It is only in recent years though the fashion seems to have declined somewhat recently that woman would seek either real or artificial tans. My theory is that as usual they are imitating men. Workmen out in the sun, depending on their colouring, will in the summer acquire Tans. It works for men because it shows physical activity and strength. Women then think that it makes them attractive too, but of course it just ages the skin. Women I knew who were keen on tanning were also most promiscuous. So Tans and Tats are both bad news I would say.
A discussion on a child free lifestyle? That’s like having a discussion on being satisfied with a minimum wage job. Some people indeed have to accept that, but I doubt it’s anyone’s actual goal in life. It kind of reminds me of the people who say there is no sexual component whatsoever in rape, not because it’s true, but because it helps them cope better.
Yes, people can still contribute to society, be good people, etc. etc. even if they find themselves unable to bring children in the world. But it certainly isn’t the ideal… save for perhaps nihilists, who don’t have ideals anyways. Unless of course, you child-free identity group folks mean to tell me that you not only don’t want to have children, but also don’t associate with anyone who has children, and refuse to go anywhere where children might be brought. If that’s the lifestyle you’re after, then you really are talking about a child-free lifestyle rather than adapting to your personal circumstances. Then you simply have a different ideal than I do.
@Opus
Light skin was a sign of wealth/class amongst women in ancient cultures, particularly the Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmetics_in_Ancient_Rome)
@ Opus – that is rather insightful on the tan. I have a virtuous woman friend who is of the upper echelon of society that is modern day Islamic woman from Turkey, she makes it a point to wear a rash guard, board shorts, and lots of sun screen for this very reason.
@MarcusD “I believe you are taking hyperbole (or should that be hypobole?) far too seriously.”
THANK YOU !!
As mentioned there are exception to the rules and general rule of thumbs and baby rabies is standard fare.
@CF (WO)MAN
Yes you are a female troll. It is quite obvious.
– You make mountains out of mole hills and mole hills into mountains which is a very common female trait.
– Immediate shaming and ad hominem are quite obvious
– Inability to think logically and reason.
– Grammar nazi
– Infamous double standard across the board
Here is a example of the inability to think logically and reason.
Offer a reason if you can Missy – have fun 🙂 Btw, I will help you along.
“I don’t understand why you continue to post studies about older women showing an increase in childbirth. ”
1. Why would a woman of of the 45-50 year age chose to give birth when:
– A higher likelihood of having pre-existing medical conditions that could worsen during pregnancy or that could complicate a pregnancy
– A more difficult time getting pregnant
– A higher chance of miscarriage
– A greater risk of having a child with Down syndrome or other chromosomal abnormalities
– A greater risk of labor and delivery complications
– Greatest mortality
– Great cost and least amount of insurance
Any insight ideas princess why a woman would choose this ??
As mentioned women of the 45-49 age bracket is INCREASING – the only one!!
As a side note – most studies stop at the age recording data at 44, this study captured it.
I would speculate given that women are delaying – this is increasing and will continue to increase.
As previously mentioned Princess, CFBC is a mere facade for CFBFU and baby rabies is real. If a woman says she doesnt want children there is a specific reason why or she is lying.
~Shalom
@CF (wo)Man”How about an honest discussion about the idea of living a childfree lifestyle.”
(Btw you missed a question mark – sorry I couldnt let this pass 🙂
Sure- Lets !!! I have 19 years under my belt- how about you ? But wait, mine wasn’t “by choice” so I guess I don’t qualify.
rmaxgenactivepua brought up some very good points “Men who marry for companionship are idiots” it is “Giving away half of your wealth to a woman is insane” is actually a conservative estimate. There are many more factors than just financial wealth – women don’t age well and seem become even more mentally unstable (YMMV on this one).
In retrospect, given the commonality of abortion, contraception, lifestyle risk factors and how they really reduce fertility- it would not be a bad for the younger guys to DEMAND to see the potential wife medical records before marriage.
Ladies. Sounds ridiculous but it worked for me: visualize. I read this somewhere, did it, and within a year I was engaged. Think about what you want. Find a picture that encapsulates it. Put it on your bedside table and look at it every morning when you wake up and last thing as you turn out the light. Mine was actually an ad for Tiffany’s from a magazine. It was a winter evening. There was perfect snow falling. The Mom is holding the door open; warm light spills out onto the surrounding snow scene. A child is peaking out from behind her. Handsome hubby is coming up the path dragging a small Christmas tree and holding a Tiffany blue box. Big smiles all around. I have been very happily married for 13 years. Give it a whirl and see what happens!
CF Man speaks of Fox News as “biased”, when they simply have both liberals and conservatives speak on their programs, unlike CNN/MSNBC/etc., who are 100% liberals/socialists/Marxists. Then, he extols someone with a Harvard background as having been educated well, when that hasn’t been typical for decades. Not keeping up well, is he?
@They Call me Tom
Your analogy to minimum wage jobs just doesn’t make sense to me, unless of course the person in that minimum wage job was independently wealthy and truly enjoyed the job they were doing. If they are happy with their job and don’t need the money, who are you to say it is not the right position for them to be in.
I interact with people with children every day. I have quite a few friends with children and get along with them fine, I just don’t WANT any of my own. This is not adapting to my situation, this is a deliberate choice. A choice that you, and a vast majority of people here see as the wrong choice, but nevertheless it is a choice that I and many others like me are happy with.
@Michael Singer
Did it ever occur to you that many of the women giving birth in the 45-50 year old range were not having their first child? Your statistics are not specifically talking about women giving birth for the first time. While that number has risen over the years, it is believed by many that the initial delay in child birth is in large part due to women staying in school longer. This accounts for the delayed START in having children and only seems to shift things by a few years.
“Over the last three decades, women have been waiting longer to start having children. In 1970 the average age of a first-time mother was about 21. In 2008 the average age was 25.1.”
The stats of fertility rate for different age ranges that you keep throwing at me do not consider whether a woman has already given birth, so someone with 10 kids having another at age 45 would add to your statistic even if she started at the age of 21 and continued to bear children into her 40’s. Get it?
Could it possibly be the advances in medicine in recent years that is allowing women to have children later in life in a safer way? The average life expectancy in this country has risen nearly 10 years over the last 50 if you want an indicator of our advances in medicine over the last half century.
On to your next post…
My question was rhetorical in nature and a question mark wasn’t necessary, but thanks for trying. There was no need for a hyphen your sentence, you forgot the closing parentheses, a period, as well as the apostrophe in couldn’t. That was all in your first, 12 word, sentence fragment. Please don’t try to play the grammar nazi game with me, you are seriously out of your league.
And you are absolutely right in the fact that because you were not choosing to have a child that you do not qualify. Living with someone who truly desires a child and cannot have one is immensely different than living as a couple where both parties made a conscious decision to not have children. The sooner you accept this, the sooner we could be on a road to a meaningful discussion. Not that I think there is any hope for that at this point.
@Luke
The first time either Fox News or CNN were mentioned in this thread of 1400+ comments was in your post accusing me of speaking about them. Where are you getting this from? Is it customary on this site to just pretend someone said something and then criticize them for it?
“The average life expectancy in this country has risen nearly 10 years over the last 50 if you want an indicator of our advances in medicine over the last half century.”
It also has a lot to do with nutrition.
@Rmax
“Women who expect a man to slave away for no kids are scum”
Plenty of married women-both with children and without, work and contribute towards the family expenses. Some are even in arrangements where the financial divide is exactly 50/50 and sometimes even more.
“Men who marry for companionship are idiots, if you dont want kids go co-habit or ltr”
LTRs and co-habitation are not viable options for those who do not believe in sex outside of marriage due to personal or religious reasons.
@TCMT
“Unless of course, you child-free identity group folks mean to tell me that you not only don’t want to have children, but also don’t associate with anyone who has children, and refuse to go anywhere where children might be brought.”
Not at all. I don’t dislike children, and almost all my friends are parents.
@ Luke
This isn’t really a political thread. I’m not sure how old you are, but there is little to no difference between Democrats or Republics. They are two sides of the same coin. Anyone who donates believing otherwise is old or oblivious. If you think Democrats and Republicans have different agendas there is a good chance you’re old.
FOX News, MSNBC, CNN, is doesn’t matter – all of them are part of the corporate owned mainstream media which forms “sheeples” opinions. If you were young and smart you would turn off your TV and get your news from the internet from a variety of non-mainstream news sources such as Democracy Now, Al Jazeera, Russia Today, The Young Turks, and even Michael Savage. The whole spectrum from A-Z. That is – until those independent internet news sources are purchased by the mainstream media. At which point they will masquerade as independent news. In which case you will have to use the internet to look at overseas news sources.
The whole liberal vs. conservative thing is tired and played out. This country is controlled by one party – the Republi-Crats. If you are old, you need to understand this. Things are not the same as they once were. Not even 20 years ago. Things change. That’s why Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich became so popular. And the all mainstream news channels blocked them out.
All mainstream outlets were heavily baised against Ron Paul and Kucinich. The mainstream news wants to keep a one party system in place with the illusion of a two party system.
Now I believe this thread was about advice to a 30 something year old women who wants to get married?
@CF (wo)Man – Hello Missy !
“his accounts for the delayed START in having children and only seems to shift things by a few years.
As usual – chic tactic of making a HUGE mountain into a molehill.
Childbirth in 45-50 yr when fertility is the lowest and requires $$$ assistance, defects are the highest, miscarriages are the highest (multiples are typical) and this is all you can come up with what would possess a women to go through that highest cost with the least guarantee ?
LOL x 10 to the 10 power !!!!
My experience with baby rabies goes a bit past my marriage. During the course of my career in medical – many of colleagues were educated 8-10’s making $150k +, women md’s, and thousands of cases. Where do you think I got when if a women says they don’t want babies they are lying or they cant ? It came from observation and verbal attestation from educated $$$ women.
In addition, once I became single and dating again (29-45) all educated (master & MD level) women without kids – this also proved to be true over and over again.
Earlier stated – you are red herring the inherent baby rabies drive for CFBC instead of CFBFU.
Why not be honest and admit the shortcoming ?
Common animals eat, sleep, work, drink, play, eliminate, and coitus.
To actually suggest CFBC as a healthy lifestyle for young healthy couples would be to produce shallow self centered people.
How stupid many men are.
Women become “less attractive” in their 30s than in their 20s? Oh, if only I were brazen enough to post a picture to disprove this. I’ll toot my own horn here: I’m 30 and flat out gorgeous. And if you losers on this board who determined women who are 30+ to be unattractive compared to 20-somethings saw me, you’d forget every “attractive” 20-something woman and be chasing me to the ends of the earth. And you would swear I looked 25 at the absolute oldest.
The men making such comments are miserable wretches who just want to spread their malicious feelings to other people. Misery loves company.
There are no dramatic changes in a woman’s appearance from 20 to 30. I’ve done modeling work at this time and there are literally no differences. Miserable people, please see therapists, and stop using the Internet as bins to dispose of all your emotional garbage.
And I noticed this page has been hijacked by miserable males who are – based on the many rantings about height and appearance – unattractive, older and miserable and who want to exalt 20-something women over 30-something women simply to lash out. There is distinct misogyny here. May all the venom you spewed come back to you tenfold.
@ God Help the Morons “How stupid many men are.
Women become “less attractive” in their 30s than in their 20s?”
Your argument is self refuting – you just unknowingly proved it.
Now in regards to physical appearance – all things being equal – one will get more “mileage” from a younger woman – this cannot be denied.
I sincerely hope you find exactly what you are looking for and then some.
Don’t forget to put some extra sun screen over your tats while you tan.
To “God Help Morons Like Me”:
If women over 30 are so attractive TO MEN, please explain why the Sports Illustrated swimsuit models, Miss America-type beauty pageants, Playboy/Penthouse noncelebrity women, etc., are so overwhelmingly much younger than that (typically under age 25). You are undoubtedly falling prey to the “as they become less physically and personally less attractive to men, their “MUST HAVE” checklists about men they might date get longer and longer” syndrome. Hint: not only are you rapidly running out of ova, with the ones left increasingly a rotten mess, unworthy of a family-seeking man’s commitment and resources. You’re also clearly a loud screecher, a harpie, a harridan, a real b*tch, that few men at your theoretical MMV are going to want around, aside from when your labia or lips are wrapped around their schlongs. Who would want to listen to you for the next 40 years? Not me. (Oh, and I’m a professional, married with two toddlers, and one more coming next year, so the “no woman could ever want a HATER HATER LIKE YOU!!!!!!!!” screech would be grossly wrong.
@ Michael Singer
“Now in regards to physical appearance – all things being equal – one will get more “mileage” from a younger woman – this cannot be denied.”
I’m not so sure Moron would not try to deny it.
By the way, I think its a troll. I mean I hope its a troll, otherwise she is definitely in the running for the Deluded Narcissist of the Year award.
While I usually don’t pay any attention whatsoever to the femtrolls who come here with their toddler tantrums/intellectual bulimia purges, we’ve been getting a sufficient number of these of late that it prompts a couple of blanket questions:
1. If this site is what they claim that it is (i.e., nothing but a forum for miserable, lonely, pathetic, dickless, hate-spewing sperm-waste excuses for little boys who live in their mothers’ basements collecting unemployment and playing xBox games), why do they dignify us with their precious attention and their “pearls of righteous wisdom” that we mere swine are obviously incapable of absorbing?
2. Do they all just cut and paste from some template that they download from a datebase at femrage.org? It sure would be nice if even one of them would vent in something resembling original prose that had a point to it.
Oops – make that “database” instead of “datebase.”
DM says:
May 25, 2013 at 11:06 am
“I have not ridden the carousel as you guys put it. However I’m not a prude either. I have been in long relationships all have ended on good terms, and i have also been single. When I was single I did not slut it up. An occasional brief dating and bedding,”
You just described being on the cock carousel. Your “N” is obviously well past 3, as opposed to the <2 that gives the much lower frivorce risk.
@ YHMP – I think you are onto something. She is both !!!
A twenty something will definitely be definitely have better skin tone, ineffable youth, and more time on her hands vs nearing expiration date.
@God Help the Moravians
I am the regular White Knight at this blog, and I am perfectly prepared to take at face value and without your even having to post a photo (this is assuredly NOT a dating site even with, as you say, so many miserable wretches) that you are indeed drop-dead gorgeous, that there is no difference between yourself as a 30 year old drop-dead gorgeous woman and your 20 year old pouting-nymphet self and that it is merely male misogyny that has constantly shown the average age of the Miss World winner to be just under 23. Your long experience as a model proves all this.
You will have no trouble, when you so desire in catching the Alpha male of your dreams as he will surely likewise see no difference between yourself and a twenty year old. What advice however do you have for your sisters in their thirties who are not so naturally endowed as yourself and who are now having trouble finding men – any man – to date let alone marry.
p.s. Are you perchance related in any way to CFMan’s drop-dead gorgeous 40 year old wife.
“Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round thy table. Behold, that thus shall the man be blessed that feareth the LORD… yea, thou shalt see thy children’s children, and peace upon Israel.
Psalm 128:3-4,6
“Children’s children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.”
Proverbs 17:6
“I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.”
1 Timothy 5:14
Perspective it seems you’re considering a child-free marriage is this right?
If so, please consider these verses and the fact that God set up the covenant of marriage – not humans. In His divine wisdom he allowed sexual intimacy only within marriage. This most often naturally results in children. Those unable to have children have my sincere pity.
The blessing of a godly marriage is in the expansion of a godly family. A blessed man will train up sanctified seed for God.
Getting married is making yourself available to have babies.
Children are a blessing from God – who are we to cut them out of our ‘plans’?!
Who are we to tell our creator that He got it wrong because we don’t ‘feel’ like having children?!
The insult to God grieves my spirit.
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
Proverbs 14:12
@ God Help the Morons
The title of this tread is “Advice to a Woman in Her 30s Looking to Marry”
How did you stumble on to this thread?
How is your search for a mate going?
You may or may not be attractive, I haven’t a clue; aside from your boasting of same.
Keep heading down that path, and keep making the mistakes of your sisterhood…….that being putting ALL else above marriage & children.
This is NOT going to work out for all of your sisterhood, and if you could take the blinders off long enough to get a clue……you might see the advice from Dalrock is both prescient & on target.
@ God Help the Morons
And in keeping with your original post………..How stupid many women are.
BUT
I prefer the correct grammatical syntax…..so I’ll change it to “How stupid are many women.”
@ God Help the Morons
And……..I don’t believe anyone on this thread has been able to trump your venomous posts.
Case in point: Below are two photos of Mena Suvari. In both photos she is beautiful, but she was much more beautiful and youthful in appearance in her early 20’s. Moreover, as a hollywood actress in her 30’s, she has made an effort to keep herself in shape. She is not representative of most other women in their 30’s who have let themselves get fat and out of shape, who have cut their hair shorter, and who have become bitter, man-hating shrews.
Mena from around 2000 – 21 years old: http://i.imgur.com/uXP7cPv.jpg
[img]http://i.imgur.com/uXP7cPv.jpg[/img]
Mena from 2010 – 31 years old: http://i.imgur.com/b9vxeem.jpg?1
[img]http://i.imgur.com/b9vxeem.jpg?1[/img]
@Michael Singer.
2 questions for you, since you conveniently ignored them the first time.
1. Did it ever occur to you that many of the women giving birth in the 45-50 year old range were not having their first child?
2. If you are so certain that I am a troll, why do you continue to try so hard to convince me, or yourself, that I am wrong? I’m not sure why you would expend so much time and energy debating a proven red herring, feminist, woman, or whatever else you have decided to label me.
Men who endlessly debate with people they accuse of being trolls are either lying to themselves and do not actually believe the person is a troll or too stupid to realize that it is pointless to argue with a troll. Which one is it in your case?
When your responses have turned to those used by young children and teenage girls, I just don’t find the sport in continuing this. To answer you back in your own language, I guess I would say LOL x 10 to the 10 power + 1 x infinity.
Even when used in a mocking way that last sentence almost sounded too childish for me to post, but I couldn’t resist and it was a nice nostalgic trip back to the days of my childhood. I can’t remember the last time I had to pull the x infinity card on someone.
@rmaxgenactivepua
“Marriage is for kids, which is why a man slaves away for a family, something women are too lazy to do”
An interesting trend can be seen over the last ~20 years. Having children is being seen as less and less important for a successful marriage. In fact there was a 24% decrease in people saying children are “very important” to a successful marriage between 1990 and 2007. The top 2 factors, faithfulness and a happy sexual relationship remained virtually stagnant over this same time period.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2007/07/01/as-marriage-and-parenthood-drift-apart-public-is-concerned-about-social-impact/
——————–
Americans of all ages, this survey finds, acknowledge that there has been a distinct weakening of the link between marriage and parenthood. In perhaps the single most striking finding from the survey, just 41% of Americans now say that children are “very important” to a successful marriage, down sharply from the 65% who said this in a 1990 survey.
Indeed, children have fallen to eighth out of nine on a list of items that people associate with successful marriages — well behind “sharing household chores,” “good housing,” “adequate income,” “happy sexual relationship,” and “faithfulness.” Back in 1990, when the American public was given this same list on a World Values Survey, children ranked third in importance.
The new Pew survey also finds that, by a margin of nearly three-to-one, Americans say that the main purpose of marriage is the “mutual happiness and fulfillment” of adults rather than the “bearing and raising of children.”
In downgrading the importance of children to marriage, public opinion both reflects and facilitates the upheavals in marital and parenting patterns that have taken place over the past several decades.
—————-
Only 21% of adults ages 18-64 said that the main purpose of marriages was for having children, while 68% said it was for mutual happiness. Even among the religious only 25% said children were the main purpose.
When asked about the importance of children for a successful marriage, nearly 1/3 of whites surveyed said “Not too important”. This number was lower among blacks and hispanics, but still in the 15-20% range.
Based on this survey data, it appears that my reasons for marriage are actually more in line with the general public than yours as I would rank mutual happiness and fulfillment at the top of my list and the need for children at the every bottom..
@ John Deigh
Ha. I remember this actress.
God Help the Morons would look at her (and others) and say is just as/more attractive at 31. Not so. Something as “changed”. It’s a feeling. Yes she is still attractive, for her age. If I knew her from before – she would still continue beautiful at 31 and beyond. But had I NOT known her from before she would just be another 31 year old women who “looks good for her age” but is not worthy of marriage (unless I’m 15-20 years older than her) precisely because of her age.
God Help the Morons is a women. She does not understand what men see.
God Help the Morons might be gorgeous for her age. Key phrase” “for her age”.
Let’s pretend God Help the Morons is a “10” (ten). She would be floored; absolutely blown away to learn that 8 out of 10 men marriage minded men – if given the option in a controlled study etc- would choose a 20 year old seven or eight over a 31 year old ten.
That 20 year old has 10 years of innocence, youth and fertility left. Like all the other 30+ women who are suddenly suspecting that something isn’t right “God Help the Morons” landed on this blog for a reason. My guess is she knows what it is.
Have you ever been outside for too long and “wondered” if you were being sunburned? You don’t consciously know your being burned. But your body tells you something that makes you ask “am I being sunburned?”. Well at that point you ARE being sunburned. “God Help the Morons” is at the point. “Am I passing my expiration date?”. Yes “God Help the Morons”. You ARE passing your expiration date.
This is when the denial must kick for these women. Wait! I’m GORGEOUS. I CAN’T be passing my expiration date. So she continue’s to stay in the sun and get cooked. She will learn later just how long she was actually out playing in the sun. It was too long. She DID in fact pass her expiration date and did not notice because she is GORGEOUS. Men noticed. Internally. Men noticed. But she did not.
Keep living in denial you stupid women. Men have not changed in thousands of years. And they are not about to change because you think you’re GORGEOUS at 31 year old. For 99% of women the magnetic attraction that pulled us in when you were 20 – is severely declined by age 31.
Time is against “God Help the Morons”. It would do no good to tell her that at 31 and never married she has entered an almost kind of “guilty until proven innocent” stage. Things are so out of control these days there is really no way to tell the difference between the good girls and the bad girls. I.E. girls who are victims of circumstance or held true to their moral codes and simply found themselves never married at 31 vs. girls who rode a Farris Wheel of cocks and selfishly partied their youth away pursuing Alpha males.
The latter outnumbers the former 10:1. If not more.
“God Help the Morons” has all these things going against her. She doesn’t even realize it. And it would not to any good to tell her because she is GORGEOUS….
And confident
And independent
And humorous
And educated
And makes a good income
And “knows herself” better at 31
And “owns it” better at 31
And all of the other typical excuses she thinks make her more attractive at age 31.
@Perspective
Hannah’s correct, check out her quotes
Your women without children stance, goes against the bible
Genesis specifically tells women to give birth, as part of their fallen nature, also Timothy 2
Also the vast majority of married women without children, dont work, they leech like parasites off their husbands, theyre scum
Marriage doesnt automatically make sex safe, or biblical
Sex is for specifically for having kids, THATS the whole point of sex in marriage
A REAL marriage has children, FACT
Otherwise its a marriage of convenience, its no different from living in sin, get your facts straight …
@ God Help the Morons
There’s been a lot of talk on this post specifically about the benefits of hindsight. A lot of claiming to be so much wiser and better than one was when one was younger. I ran across this blog post on Evan Marc Katz’s websitehttp://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/if-we-never-stop-changing-how-do-we-choose-a-partner/ which address this very point. Basically, it’s a psychological coping mechanism.
Also, if you haven’t read his blog, you should. Evan Marc Katz is a dating coach who helps women. His blog, coupled with this one, will give you some insight into male thinking.
These idiotic christian women, have NO idea what a husband is for
The WHOLE point of having a husband, is to prepare you, to make you mature enough to have a child
THAT’S WHY you have a husband, he prepares you, matures you, & forces you to grow mentally as a woman, so you have capabilities to have a child
YOUR HUSBAND gives you maternal instincts, he triggers them by being dominant & MASCULINE
A husband prepares you spiritually & mentally & biologically to have children, THAT’S the whole point of a husband
THATS a biblical fact …
You idiotic christian women need to stop thinking of men as providers
Men are DESIGNED to prepare you for child birth
Why the hell do you think, men are dominant & aggressive, it has NOTHING to do with keeping a woman happy
Being a leader & dominant & competitive, forces a woman to mature & get herself ready for child birth
Leadership & dominance are ALL about preparing women for child birth
Through loving a husband, she learns how to be maternal
@rmaxgenactivepua
“Also the vast majority of married women without children, dont work, they leech like parasites off their husbands, theyre scum”
I highly doubt this is true. Where are you getting this idea from?
“Sex is for specifically for having kids, THATS the whole point of sex in marriage”
Do you intend on never having sex again after having the number of children you consider ideal? Or are you saying that married couples should continue having children indefinitely?
“A REAL marriage has children, FACT”
I think your statement needs to be revised to say ” A REAL Christian marriage has children.” I know that a lot of people posting here regularly are very religious, but I don’t see anything in the site description that states this is a religious oriented site.
“Through loving a husband, she learns how to be maternal”
Let me get this straight. A women has an undeniable, hard-wired, innate maternal instinct, but still needs a husband to learn how to be maternal? Your statement is a direct confirmation of my post about maternal instinct being more of a learned trait than an innate one. A point which you argued against and labelled me a troll for. Would you care to explain the contradiction in your posts?
@CF (wo)Man says: “1. Did it ever occur to you that many of the women giving birth in the 45-50 year old range were not having their first child?”
You still didnt answer the question despite your noted debating skills by other women bloggers.
Regardless, I’ll be your huckleberry (You just pulled the carpet out from your own feet).
Here you go Missy 🙂
1.Why would a 45-50 yr women have “additional children” so late when fertility is the lowest and requires $$$ assistance, defects are the highest, miscarriages are the highest (multiples are typical) and this is all you can come up with what would possess a women to go through that highest cost with the least guarantee if she already has children ?
2. Why are women in the 45 -50 year old range show the only increase ?
The answers is quite obvious.
Btw, the last time I checked “teenage girls” are the one arguing that “a authors survey of 400” to be credible instead of reliable study data. I could go on and on and on. But it is quite obvious you are a woman given your reasoning/logic (lack thereof) as well as lack of value judgement / risk vs benefit.
I suggest showing the information to your husband and asking him for a credible answer.
@Hannah
“Children are a blessing from God – who are we to cut them out of our ‘plans’?!”
Yes, they are indeed a blessing, I never said they were not. I do however believe that there reasons-not all of which are selfish, as to why some may not want to have any of their own.
“Who are we to tell our creator that He got it wrong because we don’t ‘feel’ like having children?!
I never said I was telling the “creator that He got it wrong because we don’t ‘feel’ like having children.” Also, when you were word it that way, the part about not “feeling like having children” it seems that you’re making it sound like those who do not want children just decided on some frivolous whim as opposed to coming to that choice based on an informed decision.
“The insult to God grieves my spirit.”
I believe that those who view people who make this choice as “an insult to our G-d” have it all wrong. There are plenty of people of faith who are CFBC, and who good individuals sincere in their faith.
@CF WOMAN & rmaxgenactivepua
“Also the vast majority of married women without children, dont work, they leech like parasites off their husbands, theyre scum”
This is a venal relationship. Another way to look at is legalized prostitution. It is too bad the man doesn’t realize this and has exposed himself to long time legal risk.
The “damaged goods” will eventually suffer a emotional crisis or depression (typically post menopausal) and/or from previous behaviors.
Skeletons eventually do make their way out of the closet.
““A REAL marriage has children, FACT”
This is EASILY confirmed by looking at a worldwide view. The population is growing and not decreasing. Interestingly enough – children out of wedlock is increasing.
” still needs a husband to learn how to be maternal?”
Yes they do.
Just as many gender higher learning specific traits are passed by those who have far more experience than a neophyte.
There is a vast difference between position and experience. A mother of 3 will have more experience than a new mother.
In addition, what mother would abort / kill her unborn child for sake of convenience / birth control?
@rmax
“Also the vast majority of married women without children, dont work, they leech like parasites off their husbands, theyre scum”
I know of NO married women WITHOUT children who DON’T work. As I mentioned before, plenty of married women- both WITHOUT children and with, work and contribute to their family/household. Some by as much as 50%…and sometimes even more.
“Sex is for specifically for having kids, THATS the whole point of sex in marriage”
Then why do countless men on this site and elsewhere list regular sex as one of the main reasons to marry?
“A REAL marriage has children, FACT”
A REAL marriage is one recognized by law and religion. I know of no State or even religious marriage that becomes null and void if the couple chooses to not have children.
“Otherwise its a marriage of convenience, its no different from living in sin, get your facts straight ”
It’s not a marriage of convenience or living in sin. Intimacy within a marriage without children is not fornication. “Pump and dumps” and cohabitation outside of marriage are.
@Perspective:
“…it seems that you’re making it sound like those who do not want children just decided on some frivolous whim as opposed to coming to that choice based on an informed decision.”
Thanks for your response – would you mind explaining this for me… what the informed decision not to have children might be based on? Thanks in advance!
@rmax
“These idiotic christian women, have NO idea what a husband is for”
Not sure if you were referring directly to me but since it seemed to be implied, just for the record, I’m no “idiot” and I do know the reasons for having a husband.
“The WHOLE point of having a husband, is to prepare you, to make you mature enough to have a child”
A husband certainly plays a very important role in this but I don’t believe it’s the “WHOLE point” of having one.
“You idiotic christian women need to stop thinking of men as providers”
Again, no idiot here and I don’t think of a man as a “provider.” I have a post-secondary education and a job. Even if my husband said he would be fine with me staying at home, I would not want that, unless of course, he had a real issue with me working. However, I doubt that will ever be the case.
@Perspective – “I know of NO married women WITHOUT children who DON’T work.”
That situation was my ex-wife. Very self destructive to say the least.
Btw, this is also common in upper income families where their whole day is shopping, lunch, and pampering (I saw quite a bit of this is Scottsdale, AZ).
“Again, no idiot here and I don’t think of a man as a “provider.” I have a post-secondary education and a job”
Here is the problem my dear. Trying raising a child and working 10+ hours a day. Not a very fulfilling – So much for post-secondary education. Every single time I have seen post-secondary education ( and that is all I have been involved with) – it does more harm than good since in the attempt of “trying to have it all” resulted in broken homes and divorce.
Should have concentrated on finding a good guy and getting his education ahead instead of yours. If you plan on having kids – your secondary education is TOTALLY USELESS and contributes nothing.
There is no such thing as the “American dream/having it all” – it is one massive lie.
Any two people that can stay together, “like” each other, and raise straight healthy kids has got their act together and is truly blessed.
@Michael Singer
Oh Michael, sweetheart, you just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. I have to apologize for assuming you had actually read and understood the study you linked to, rather than just pulling a single number from one of the pretty charts that you think helped your argument. Here is a quote directly from the data you provided and are questioning the reasons behind.
——————————-
Experts suggest that much of the fertility decline that occurs during an economic decline is
postponement of childbearing and does not represent a decision to have fewer children.
In other words, people put off having children during the economic downturn, and then catch up on fertility once economic conditions improve. It’s too early to know if fertility will bounce back as the U.S. economy recovers, but survey findings from the Pew Research Center and vital statistics data have shown that the recession is more strongly associated with fertility declines among younger women, who presumably have the luxury of postponing fertility until better economic times prevail. Conversely, older women are less likely to say that they have postponed fertility due to economic declines. They are the only age group that has shown consistent, if not rising, fertility in recent years.
————————-
Older women are less effected by the economy due to their higher degree of financial stability in later years. This really isn’t hard logic to follow and all of this information was in a link that you provided. But I’m the one who lacks the logic and skills needed to connect the dots. Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
Since I assumed you had already read that, I provided an additional reason why this may be true by naming medical advances. IVF has become more reliable as well as more available due to more insurance companies covering fertility treatments in recent years. So I did in fact answer your question already, but I guess you needed it explained a little slower.
I would like to hear your answer, since it is so obvious to you. Let me guess. Women who say they don’t want children at an early age are lying.
@CF “wo”Man
” IVF has become more reliable as well as more available due to more insurance companies covering fertility treatments in recent years.”
-Just because there is a slight improvement in IVF does in regards to fertility. This does not prevent the miscarriages nor birth defects – which are “the highest” in this age range-this cannot be denied.
“Older women are less effected by the economy due to their higher degree of financial stability in later years”
These women are close to 20 years in their career. They are not financially effected. Why did they put off childbearing till all the risks were the highest ?
Again Missy – go ask your husband for a reasonable answers:
– why put off childbirth till the risks were the greatest ?
– why have a 16 year teenage while one in is in 60’s ?
CF (WO)man
Interesting enough you are openly advocating CFBC within the context of marriage (and you have proclaimed to be a atheist and supporting murder/abortion)
Since you are a moral relativist who are not going to have kids (CFBFU) – the obvious question is why get married ? Tax break ?
What are the benefit of marriage ? What is in it for you ? Who cares Mrs CFBFU is your married or not?
Michael Singer wrote, “Any two people that can stay together, “like” each other, and raise straight healthy kids has got their act together and is truly blessed.”
Well said.
@Michael Singer
—————-
U.S. births hit an all-time high in 2007, at more than 4.3 million. Over the next two years, the number dropped to about 4.2 million and then about 4.1 million.
Last year, it was down to just over 4 million, according to the new report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
For teens, birth rates dropped 9 percent from 2009. For women in their early 20s, they fell 6 percent. For unmarried mothers, the drop was 4 percent.
Experts believe the downward trend is tied to the economy, which officially was in a recession from December 2007 until June 2009 and remains weak. The theory is that women with money worries – especially younger women – feel they can’t afford to start a family or add to it.
That’s true of Mary Garrick, 27, an advertising executive in Columbus, Ohio. She and her husband, David, married in 2008 and hoped to start having children quickly, in part because men in his family have died in their 40s. But David, 33, was laid off that year from his nursing job and again last year.
He’s working again, but worries about the economy linger. “It kind of made us cautious about life decisions, like having a family. It’s definitely something that affected us,” she said.
Kristi Elsberry, a married 27-year-old mother of two, had her tubes tied in 2009 after she had trouble finding a job and she and her husband grew worried about the financial burden of any additional children. “Kids are so expensive, especially in this day and age. And neither of us think anything’s going to get better,” said Elsberry, of Leland, N.C.
Many of the report’s findings are part of a trend and not surprising. There was a continued decline in the percentage of premature births at less than 37 weeks. And – as in years past – birth rates fell in younger women but rose a little in women 40 and older, who face a closing biological window for having children and may be more worried about that than the economy.
————-
I’m not arguing the fact that birth is more complicated and risky as a woman ages. Women are delaying childbirth due in large part to the economy and when they hit a certain age they realize the risks will begin to outweigh the rewards of having children and decide to go for it. Many studies over the last century have shown that birth rates are tightly tied to the economy.
@Michael Singer
I am an atheist, but have never stated my position on abortion in this discussion. You are, once again, putting words in my mouth that I did not say.
My wife is now on my insurance plan, which is cheaper and more comprehensive than her own and this saves us both money. When tax season arrives I think we will see some additional benefit as well. If one of us is ever in a serious accident, I don’t want to be denied visitation rights because we are not family. As we grow older, the ability to make potentially life altering medical decisions is virtually impossible without being married.
I also personally like being able to refer to her as my wife as opposed to my girlfriend and like the idea of openly showing a commitment to each other through the ceremony of marriage in the presence of our close friends and family.
@Hannah
“Thanks for your response – would you mind explaining this for me… what the informed decision not to have children might be based on? Thanks in advance!”
The informed decision to not have children could be based on a variety of factors. Some examples might be if one or both parents have an illness or have struggled with an addiction in their past and do not wish to potentially pass that on to their offspring. Another reason might be in the case of divorce, the couple may not wish to have children brought into it as they’ve often been shown to be adversely affected. I don’t mean to sound overly negative, but a married couple might also not want kids because they don’t want to bring them into a world where they’ll be exposed to so much and even when the parents put their all into raising them right, protecting them and keeping them safe,happy, and healthy it may still not be enough.
@MS
“That situation was my ex-wife. Very self destructive to say the least.
Btw, this is also common in upper income families where their whole day is shopping, lunch, and pampering (I saw quite a bit of this is Scottsdale, AZ).”
That’s unfortunate. I couldn’t live like that. I’d feel guilty and just unfilled in general. You seem like you don’t approve of the above scenario, why did you allow your ex to not work?
“Here is the problem my dear. Trying raising a child and working 10+ hours a day. Not a very fulfilling – So much for post-secondary education. Every single time I have seen post-secondary education ( and that is all I have been involved with) – it does more harm than good since in the attempt of “trying to have it all” resulted in broken homes and divorce.”
But I wasn’t talking about a wife with children. However, even if I were, it’s possible for the wife to cut back and work part-time. In today’s economy, I know of very few families who can afford living on a single income. It would be great if every mother could devote all her time to raising her children, and for those who can, it’s certainly a blessing. Unfortunately, that set-up is just not a practical or viable option for many families.
“Should have concentrated on finding a good guy and getting his education ahead instead of yours. If you plan on having kids – your secondary education is TOTALLY USELESS and contributes nothing.”
It’s NOT totally useless. It not only allows me to have career/job options (so that I’m not limited to a minimum wage job forever) so I can take care of myself and pay my bills. It will also allow me to contribute to my household when/if I marry, as I don’t think that my husband should have to provide for me when I’m capable of doing so myself. This isn’t about some “I am woman, hear me roar,rah rah rah” feminist argument, it’s just about pulling my own weight and fairness.Aside from that, contrary to what many men on here say, education and socio-economic background ARE important factors to many men when considering a wife. I know that most men don’t mind a woman having less education and income than themselves, but the overwhelming majority that I’ve met expect at least SOME post-secondary and the ability to hold down a job.
Debating the decision to have children is folly. I could take either side and argue compellingly. The issue must be reduced to its essence, not debated on technical points.
Is NOT having children a sin, an affront to God? That becomes a birth control debate, not a child free debate. Debating childlessness is, again, folly when BC would be the issue.
@CFM
“I also personally like being able to refer to her as my wife as opposed to my girlfriend and like the idea of openly showing a commitment to each other through the ceremony of marriage in the presence of our close friends and family.”
Agreed. Marriage tends to result in a stronger commitment than LTR or cohabitation.
Congratulations Perspective – you have just prevented Ludwig van Beethoven from being conceived. 😦
@MS
“Should have concentrated on finding a good guy and getting his education ahead instead of yours. If you plan on having kids – your secondary education is TOTALLY USELESS and contributes nothing.”
Just fixed some typos below.
It’s NOT totally useless. Aside from my current job, it will allow me to have other greater career/job options than if did not have my education and would otherwise be limited to minimum wage jobs. It allows me take care of myself and pay my bills. It will also allow me to contribute to my household when/if I marry, as I don’t think that my husband should have to provide for me when I’m capable of doing so myself. This isn’t about some “I am woman, hear me roar,rah rah rah” feminist argument, it’s just about pulling my own weight and fairness.Aside from that, contrary to what many men on here say, education and socio-economic background ARE important factors to many men when considering a wife. I know that most men don’t mind a woman having less education and income than themselves, but the overwhelming majority that I’ve met expect at least SOME post-secondary and the ability to hold down a job.
@Opus
Thanks Opus, but I believe Beethoven passed centuries ago.
@Perspective
I think what Opus was hinting at is that the child you chose not to have could have turned out to be the next Beethoven. I hear this argument against being childfree all of the time and it is a particularly weak one. “But what if your child would have become the doctor that cured cancer?”
The fact is a vast majority of children will grow up to be average. Not world changing artists, doctors, inventors, scientists, etc…, but an average person sitting around in front of a computer arguing with strangers on the internet. Some will grow up to be great leaders and have a major positive impact on society. Others will shoot up their schools, murdering dozens of innocent people along the way or commit acts of terrorism.
I wonder if he has considered this opposite extreme. What if by not having a child you prevent another career criminal, murderer, rapist, or serial killer?
@CFM
“I wonder if he has considered this opposite extreme. What if by not having a child you prevent another career criminal, murderer, rapist, or serial killer?”
Oh gosh, I might make some mistakes as a mother but I’d be confident (and would pray fervently) that theynever become that.
Lol, maybe they’d need some therapy at the bare minimum, but hopefully that would be all!
@Perspective
Your comment put me in mind of Beethoven merely because both his parents had problems of a severe nature as did his elder siblings. They however had neither yours nor Closet Faggot Man’s humanistic sensibilities. Ludwig, himself also had major problems for not only was he rather short but was also incredibly deaf which is hardly part of the preferred job description for a Composer. Whenever I hear the opening of the last movement of the Ninth (which I prefer not to do) it is clear that anyone capable of and willing to write such a cacophony should never have been allowed near manuscript paper. Happily in 1827 his Doctor contrived (as only the medical profession can) to shorten his life thus putting both Beethoven and humanity out of its misery.
My remark is usually met with a ‘what about Hitler’ remark, but I say that Hitler was actually a rather talented watercolour artist and dog lover, so we clearly benefited there – as did his dogs. It hardly becomes a confirmed Satanist like me to suggest that playing God is not something that humans, tempting as it is, should succumb to, weighing the value of human life on some kind of profit and loss calculus.
@Opus
I specifically chose to not mention Hitler because I was certain that have heard that argument many times before and would be prepared with some twisted form of a rebuttal talking about the positive aspects of his life. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
Perspective the reasons you’ve listed as possible reasons to choose not to have children are based in FEAR not informed decision!
Your examples:
One or both parents having an illness or having had struggled with an addiction in their past and do not wish to potentially pass that on to their offspring.
Possible divorce or not wanting to bring them into a world where they’ll be exposed to so much.
So –
Illness
Addiction
Divorce
Unsafe World
Of course these variables mean results may vary!
You are right when you say that even when the parents put their all into raising children right, protecting them and keeping them safe,happy, and healthy it may still not be enough.
This is true because we are given free will.
Does this mean we ought to play God?! Absolutely not!
It is a sin to worry. Children are a blessing from the Lord – and He is in control.
I’m not at all wanting to fight with you Perspective – I just want to be able to show you the error before you marry. Dear girl I am of the opinion that women ought not bring her own agenda to the covenant of marriage.
You have a few things to offer your future husband – your youth, your purity, your looks and your availability.
To be a woman worthy of a man – you need to be prepared to do whatever it is HE wants in your life together. Don’t come with expectations and a checklists of your own desires – it is my thought that this is rooted in selfish pride.
So if you are virginal – whatever age you are right now and whatever looks you have are what you offer a man.
In order to increase the field of interest – DROP your checklist and make yourself available to join a man in HIS world! If he wants a quiverful of children – praise God! If he wants you to homeschool his children you’ve already dropped your expectations of ‘time-to-yourself-as-an-adult’ (self-indulgent yummy mummy talk). If your husband DOESN’T want children then you accept that he is accountable to God for this decision. Pray that he is given wisdom and discernment and continue loving him with a meek and quiet spirit.
Not matter what your husband’s mission is in this life – you are his HELPER.
He is the captain. First-mates don’t join a ship with their own map!
Be sweet be kind be flexible and willing – and may the Lord bless and keep you.
“She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future.”
Proverbs 31:25
x Hannah
@ Hannah
Perspective the reasons you’ve listed as possible reasons to choose not to have children are based in FEAR not informed decision!
Fear can be perfectly rational, and it often is.
Imagine if you were in the end times – Luke 21:23-24 – would you want to bring a child into the world during those times, or would choosing not to, be based on fear and thus a “sin”?
Is choosing not to run across a busy road due to a lack of faith or because of worry?
Children are a blessing from the Lord – and He is in control.
And blessings can be corrupted. He is control, yet your children also have free will. Maybe your children will be a blessing, I certainly hope so, but you speak too soon. We enter a new era of darkness, let us not condemn those who wish to spare the unborn of evil and suffering. Perhaps it is something some of the men on here may understand more than others.
Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed— and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors— and they have no comforter. And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive. But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.
You should also understand that in the context of the old testament, and when most did not have the Spirit, blessings were understood to be in the form of material goods, status, beauty, and children. For example, those who were poor or childless could not considered to be blessed. In the new testament, while these can still be blessings, those of the Spirit (ought to) concern themselves with the matters of the spirit.
Having said all that, I do believe there are many who do not want children because of selfish reasons. I have yet to encounter a couple who do it for reasons I have mentioned.
As for the matter of Perspective, she needs to be upfront about her intentions of not to having children to her future husband. And even then, I am not so sure she has a right (biblically speaking) to deny him if he wants children afterwards.
@Hannah
I’m printing this and forwarding to all women I know. Excellent advice!
@Michael Singer: “Should have concentrated on finding a good guy and getting his education ahead instead of yours.”
I totally agree. I even tried pushing that to my brother’s children (all woman family). They told me to back off!! That I was strange. Even my brother (who used to preach what we all men here preach) started dishing out a lot of feminist crap..”They are too young to worry about such matters.”. “You are causing them too much anxiety!” “She was only teasing the guys, not sleeping with them.” “What are you implying when you say: Don’t slut around; that you are worth less when you are 30, 40; that your looks will fade as u get older?”
(I think I used the word uglier – I’m such a monster)
I retorted (to him): “Is it better that they have children out of wedlock? Is it better that they are alone @30, 40? Do u really think that a 30 year old woman is more attractive than a 20 year old girl?” To which he said that he can talk to a 30/40 year old woman but not to an immature 20 year old girl. Then he told me to piss off.
How do u make a blue-pill guy swallow a red-pill? Was I being too crude? I used to be Mr. Nice Guy and now they are somewhat shocked at the bluntness of my new found beliefs that were always there but buried deep in feminist bullshit over the past decades.
@RJ
“Michael Singer: “Should have concentrated on finding a good guy and getting his education ahead instead of yours.”
RJ response to MS-“I totally agree. I even tried pushing that to my brother’s children (all woman family).”
There’s many men here who keep insisting that a woman’s education is completely worthless. Just to be very clear, I UNDERSTAND most men DO NOT see it as vital as YOUTH and BEAUTY. However, if it’s not valued by men at all, why then do I continually come across educated, professional men who claim preference for educated women, and who even say they would not become seriously involved with one who iss not? I constantly hear this coming from both religious and non-religious men. Since this is the case with a substantial portion of men, then don’t you think advising women to ditch their education would limit their options? I’m not saying that a young woman should exclusively put all her time and efforts into education/career and neglect marriage, I’m just saying that I don’t see why it’s necessary to forgo education all together. By the time the average woman completes her undergrad degree, she’s only 21-23. Still in her early 20’s and thus her prime. Is that too late now? And contrary to popular belief, for many people (myself included) college is one NOT one big smorgasbord of drunkenness, promiscuity and “good times.” There’s many people who are there to actually learn and get their education. Many students also meet their future spouse at school. That’s not to say college is specifically for a “MRS” degree, it just happens by chance for many.
A marriage of convenience isnt a real marriage, its no better then co-habiting
The whole point of marriage is to create a community of children
A marriege of conveneince is exactly the same as a cohabitating couple, except for a piece of paper, its bullshit
“We enter a new era of darkness, let us not condemn those who wish to spare the unborn of evil and suffering. Perhaps it is something some of the men on here may understand more than others.”
That’s original. Haven’t heard it offered by every single eugenist that ever existed. Can you offer something better than cut and paste?
In answer to your cut and paste, something not cut and pasted: If we do enter a new era of darkness, we need to bring to life those that can bring the light. Passivism, submission, etc. should be condemned. The abusers and exploiters who would try to encourage victims to put up no resistance deserve a special ring of hell all for themselves.
Afterall, Farenheit 451 was one of my favorite works of fiction, but the story would have been very lame if, after escaping the dystopia, instead of preserving the past so that it can in time be restored… they all instead resigned to lay down and die at the end of the tracks.
Hopeful – thanks for your encouragement 🙂
@ They Call Me Tom:
“If we do enter a new era of darkness, we need to bring to life those that can bring the light.”
Amen!
@Perspective “There’s many men here who keep insisting that a woman’s education is completely worthless.”
Depends how one looks at it (As a side note I have only dated/engaged to master to phd post divorce).
Higher education for women for a woman is not waste if her values/morals remain intact. If morals are further degraded then it the price paid exceeds what is received in return. She will increasingly damaged goods for life and be detrimental to herself, children, husband, and others.
As a side note, imo most women only make it through school by sponging off guys in exchange for sex. So much for being self sufficient.
Really think about this – what good is it to have a higher education (master on up) that leads to a short term career ? What good is higher education that deceitfully promises a career if one cant maintain a healthy relationship due to wrecked values /morals ?
Women who have left the care/protection of their fathers to purse a high education are a casualty without knowing it.
rmaxgenactivepua “A marriage of convenience isnt a real marriage, its no better then co-habiting”
In the context, you mentioned, you are correct (ie legalized prostitution).
Marriage is really a “state of mind” that is based on circumstances, agreement, and mutual values/integrity of the highest virtue.
@Michael
A marriage with no children has no long term commitment, no reason to stay together, other then sex & conversation … very weak foundations for long term commitment
A marriage with no children, is too easy to break a marriage contract
What’s there for a couple to commit to, if they have no children? They’re penis’s & vagina’s? The endless amounts of sex?
Can a man & woman really bond to each other, if they have no children?
What are they going to bond to, WHERES IS THE BIOCHEMISTRY to keep them bonded & commited to each other in a long term relationship?
Marriage is a PROCESS OF BONDING two people together to a child, to create the biochemicals neccessary for a long term relationship
IF they have no child, where are they going to get the biochemistry to bond over for life?
@Hannah
Great post
Western culture has no cultural idea of submitting to men, they dont have a concept of safety & deferring & speaking through the judgement & authority of man
Women dont know how to be women …
@rmaxgenactivepua – I agree with you.
Marriage w/o children is very dry (I can speak from personal experience). Life gets rather boring very quickly with just two people. Chris Rock said either your married & bored or single & lonely (there is some truth there- people are wired to cohabitate(marriage) and reproduce.
The only exceptions to this are those who are “unknowingly” unable to reproduce and have to make the best of the situation (this is now quite common given the abortion & birth control – these drastically lower fertility).
I really believe the only way a marriage can stay together is for both parties to have integrity. I am is basing this on the frivdivorce commonly seen in America w/kids involved. Interestingly enough the woman is destructively bonding to the children instead of her husband. The only bond to her husband is to his wallet.
@rmaxgenactivepua
You can argue all day about the definition of marriage in the eyes of the church and I couldn’t care less, as I am not here to debate religion. That is an entirely different subject that I have learned not to even attempt to debate. But when you try to bring science into the picture please don’t just make up facts. You call marriage without children “bullshit”, then make up some pseudoscientific bullshit to back it up.
“Marriage is a PROCESS OF BONDING two people together to a child, to create the biochemicals neccessary for a long term relationship”
The biochemical stages of love (lust, attraction, attachment) are well studied and none are dependent on having children. There is plenty of evidence for the bonds between parents and their children, but the bond that 2 adults in a monogamous relationship have to one another does not require children.
@Michael Singer
“Marriage w/o children is very dry (I can speak from personal experience). Life gets rather boring very quickly with just two people.”
You are once again leaning or your own personal example of a failed marriage to demonstrate that life gets boring with just two people. And as I have pointed out many times before, you are speaking of a relationship where children were desired, but not possible. This puts you in a very different situation when compared to a couple where neither partner desires children. There are many people in dry, boring marriages both with and without children. Just like there are many people in exciting, loving relationships, both with and without children. Children are not the influential factor here.
Chris Rock was talking about parents in his marriage bit that you mentioned.
“That’s right, that’s right. Marriage is a boring ass shit. Cause once you’re married you gotta hang around with other married people and that’s just disgusting. You have to go to dinner with six neutered adults, a bunch of women talking about diaper genies and hair coloring.”
That doesn’t sound at all like the married, childfree, couples I spend my time with. In fact, our friends who are parents particularly love going out with us to get away from talking exclusively about their kids all the time with the other parents they typically spend their time with. One couple who we are very close friends with is getting inspiration from how happy we are together and using that to rekindle their own relationship which began to dwindle after having 2 children. They are now making an effort to find more time for themselves as well as more time with other non-parents.
I’m also not sure how marriage can be considered legalized prostitution when the woman is working and earning money. This definition is only applicable when the women earns no money and is valued only for sex. I don’t know about you, but this is certainly not the kind of marriage I have or desire.
@Hannah
“He is the captain. First-mates don’t join a ship with their own map!”
Thank you for expanding on exactly what it means to be a submissive wife. You have made me even more certain that I would never want be in a relationship such as the one you described.
I want to spend my life with someone who can help me decide where to go, not just blindly follow my lead. I wonder if the desire to be with submissive women is what leads men to believe they will be bored after a short period of time. I married someone who is my intellectual equal, has common interests and who I truly enjoy spending time with, not someone who refuses to think for herself or is “prepared to do whatever it is HE wants in your life together.”
I would put the emphasis in that lest sentence on TOGETHER, not on HE. My marriage is a partnership, not to be compared to piloting a ship. If you are happy with that type of arrangement, more power to you, but the whole thing sounds rather dull and boring to me. Much as you see my life without children as unfulfilled, I would consider spending the rest of my life with a woman who doesn’t bring her own thoughts and ideas (i.e. the map in your analogy) to the table as unfulfilled.
Hello people. Unknown is back with random questions. A bit off topic, but if a man acts as if he likes a woman, but never actually says it, what does it mean? That he simply doesn’t like the woman? Is there any chance of honesty? I know this man in his 30s…nothing physical has happened between us. We just talk to each other a lot. I gathered the last bits of courage left in my loveless, shy, withdrawn self and only said ‘I kind of like you’. He did not say anything about it, but responded to other matters we had talked about…food, a bit of religion and travel etc. Men are better placed when it comes to making first moves, so I believe if he liked me, he would say it. He seems comfortable around me. Can someone give me another straight tell-it-like-it-is answers? I like this man, but I have been rejected twice in my never-noticed life, I just want to save myself from it happening to me again. He is not perfect (childish, actually, even though he is older than me), but he is nice to me. Women are busy worried about marriage and here I am just worried about having someone nice by my side before I die. Someone who loves me and someone I can love back. I would be fine with marriage if it were to come my way, but I wouldn’t want to coerce anyone into it. Any pointers? What stops a man from telling a woman their true feelings? That is, why not just say ‘I like you too’ or ‘Sorry, am going to have to say ‘no, I like you as a friend’. Rejection hurts, but I like that you leave knowing the truth. Any answers to a single semi-depressed 30 year old woman would be appreciated.
@Perspective – Dalrock just did a blog on this – “Better get out the spackle” which referenced a very insightful article.
The author succinctly explained what I touched upon about women and higher education.
http://www.returnofkings.com/14238/a-vindication-of-the-writings-of-men
@CF WoMan
More proof that you are a troll.
You repeatedly change the argument:
“This is EASILY confirmed by looking at a worldwide view. The population is growing and not decreasing. Interestingly enough – children out of wedlock is increasing.” (July 30, 2013 at 1:11 am)
Your reply “@Michael Singer U.S. births hit an all-time high in 2007, at more than 4.3 million. Over the next two years, the number dropped to about 4.2 million and then about 4.1 million.”
There is a vast difference between “US” and the “world” or is that to difficult given your “superior argument skills” – as mentioned you have repeatedly done this “chic tactic” before.
Here is a article from the LA Times referenceing the UN
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-global-population-growing-faster-than-thought-20130710,0,1785617.story
Here is rather insightful article on childless cities
http://www.city-journal.org/2013/23_3_childless-cities.html
Here is a rather insightful bit of information:
“History has shown that rapid declines in childbearing—whether in ancient Rome, seventeenth-century Venice, or modern-day Tokyo—correlate with an erosion of cultural and economic vitality.”
Nothing is new under the sun – nothing.
To suggest CFBC is a choice is unfounded. Just because immoral culture that has murdered/aborted over 50,000,000 children doesn’t suggest CFBC during the entire course of ones lifetime – this cannot be denied.
Btw, you are wwwwwaaaayyyyy incorrect regarding my experience. What I saw in with patients medical records/case history could easily surpasses your measly survey of 400. In addition, many highly educated career minded medical professional women who decide to have children later in life despite previous decision not to – they got it that career and having it all is quite boring. They got bit by baby rabies harder than anything I have seen before.
You are also incorrect regarding Christ Rock “Never Scared” of which I saw in Los Angeles. I recall him mentioning when one is married they are thinking about killing their partner and when one is single they think about killing them self. He also mentioned about looking in the mirror and wondering what can be done to make her (wife) happy since having everything – nothing makes her happy (typical woman).
In addition you were quite incorrect about IVG and insurance. The best of the best PPO’s pay a small fraction of this elective surgery.
Btw, you never came up with a answer why the increase of women outside the empirical age range for childbirth would subject them self to the least chance of successful childbirth ?
@Hannah
Thanks very much for your detailed response.
“Perspective the reasons you’ve listed as possible reasons to choose not to have children are based in FEAR not informed decision!”
Yes, fear is big part of it.
“Your examples:
One or both parents having an illness or having had struggled with an addiction in their past and do not wish to potentially pass that on to their offspring.
Possible divorce or not wanting to bring them into a world where they’ll be exposed to so much.
So –
Illness
Addiction
Divorce
Unsafe World”
Yes, all the above factors worry me. But something else I forgot to mention is how the children might turn out. I know parents who have tried to do everything to ensure their children grow up to be decent human beings, but instead, some become insolent, disrespectful, entitled, rebellious, and wildly out of control. As if this wouldn’t be hard enough for the poor parents, they have to endure people pointing their fingers at them, judging them because “they must have not raised them right,” even though many times that’s far from the case! I would also be particularly nervous about having a daughter(s). I don’t dislike other women, but I don’t particularity approve of what’s becoming of them in the Western world these days. I wouldn’t want my daughter to be influenced by any of that. Also, I would fear the treatment she would receive from other women. Sometimes a girl is blessed and has some good, loyal, supportive female friends, but a lot of the time, there’s ugliness, bullying, and betrayals that come from other women. Some girls are savvy and tough and know how to deal with the BS, but many fall into depression, drug abuse, promiscuity and even suicide. I just don’t think I could bare it if my child were to be subjected to that.
“I’m not at all wanting to fight with you Perspective”
I know.
“Be sweet be kind be flexible and willing – and may the Lord bless and keep you.”
Thank you and same to you.
“She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future.”
Proverbs 31:25″
I very much like the above quote, thank you.
@Michael Singer
I was not actually responding to your confirmation that real marriages have children, so my US statistics were not an attempt to change the scope of the argument from the world to the us.
What I was doing was using the data you provided to tell you exactly why the birth rates increased in the age groups you are referring to. I don’t understand why you keep insisting that I did not answer the question when it has already been answered, twice.
But here is pretty much the same answers I have given, just from a different source.
—————————————
Why More Women are Delaying Pregnancy
According to statistics, one in five women today delays pregnancy until after the age of 35. In fact, over the last 15 or so years there has been a whopping 50 percent increase in first births to women over 40 years old. The reasons for this are many, but the most common ones are:
Getting a career going – Many women delay childbirth to concentrate on building up a career first. Once on a career path, some women find it difficult to take time out for marriage and children.
Ensuring that they are financially secure
Improved medical treatment and prenatal tests
Improvement in fertility treatments have made it possible for women to conceive and have a healthy, normal pregnancy and baby despite advancing age. Prenatal tests have also helped in that couples can know whether or not a fetus will have any genetic abnormalities or defects such as Down Syndrome.
Of course, one cannot forget the stories of celebrities who have given birth after age forty. The list includes actresses such as Halle Berry, Nicole Kidman, and most recently 48-year old Nancy Grace. They have given hope to legions of women who would have at one time thought they had let the opportunity of motherhood slip by.
The proliferation of online support groups of and for women who have successfully became moms after age 35, whether for the first or tenth time offers added inspiration.
————————————
Will you stop bringing up the survey (which was 4000 people, not 400) data I presented already. I already agreed that it could have been as biased as you claim and have not referenced it since. Yet, you continuously refer to your extensive experience with “highly educated, career minded, medical professional women”. This seems like a very selective group of people that can in no way represent the US populous, let alone the world of women.
The point that you seem to be missing, over and over again, is that it doesn’t matter how many personal accounts you have of women saying they didn’t want children who changed their minds later. I can give you personal accounts of women who knew they didn’t want children from an early age and still remain childfree and happy even after they are well beyond child bearing age. You can throw statistics and study data at me all day, but I personally know people who don’t fit the picture you are painting. Just like you tried to make assumptions about me and my background and were wrong on every single account. You even admitted yourself that there are exceptions to the rule. I’m simply trying to argue that the number of these exceptions are higher than you realize and the number of voluntarily childfree women in the world is continuing to grow.
This is in part due to the higher acceptance rate of childfree couples. The latest issue of Time Magazine even has a Childfree Life article on its cover this month, bringing the subject into the media.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2148636,00.html?iid=op-article-mostpop2
I am meeting new childfree couples on an almost daily basis, both in person and on the web. Membership to childfree communities is on the rise and more and more media attention is being placed on couples who have chosen this lifestyle. This cannot be denied.
The latest article you linked about cities with fewer children, pretty much states the obvious. Big cities are expensive to live in and don’t have the space that larger families want and/or need, so they are moving away. No surprise there.
Thanks for clearing up Chris Rock’s views. My views on marriage have now been completely shattered by a comedian’s feelings towards women.
Regarding IVF and insurance. The coverage may not be universally available, but it has gotten significantly better in recent years. The treatments themselves have also advanced significantly, so my point was not exclusively about insurance coverage.
—————————–
Since the 1980s, 15 states—Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Rhode Island, Texas and West Virginia—have passed laws that require insurers to either cover or offer coverage for infertility diagnosis and treatment. Thirteen states have laws that require insurance companies to cover infertility treatment. Louisiana and New York prohibit the exclusion of coverage for a medical condition otherwise covered solely because the condition results in infertility. Two states—California and Texas—have laws that require insurance companies to offer coverage for infertility treatment. While most states with laws requiring insurance companies to offer or provide coverage for infertility treatment include coverage for in vitro fertilization, California, Louisiana, and New York have laws that specifically exclude coverage for the procedure.
—————–
Unknown @11.45
I will endeavour to answer your question; the question of what it is that this man feels for you and what if anything you should do to persuade him to advance matters. The answer is, I am afraid , that I do not know what he feels for you if anything; whether he is too shy to ask you out, or whether he has no desire to do so. I can say however that if you ask him out you run the risk of being rejected and thus hurt, and further you then rob him of the chance for manliness by your making that first move. Would you want such a man? – surely not. On balance, then, it is better to wait. If (and this seems to be the case) his presence is making you anxious, then for your own peace of mind, do not put yourself in his way too much, for absence makes the heart grown fonder. If he wants you he will come and get you. If not he won’t.
This is just my view; there are any number of castrated feminised men who read this blog who will tell you otherwise, and who are happy to go with undesirable women, but you are not such a woman, are you? … and remember, you are only thirty; you have plenty of time to meet someone, so don’t settle out of desperation.
@Unknown
I thought we covered this already …
You need to talk to more men, socialise more
You’ll never find a sucker to take you in, if you only talk to one or two men
Are you nuts?
It’s not the man at fault here, its you for not doing the legwork & spreading your net wide enough
Talk to guys who want to bang you AND looking for a relationship
Men who want you, will ALWAYS give you clear signals
Talk to guys who want to aggressively PURSUE YOU
Yes it might make you feel like a slut, but at your age of 30, your smv sucks …
@Opus – Thanks. It is nice of you to think of 30 as young:). I won’t ask him out. I will try not being around him and see if it bothers him. Actually, I have tried the distant thing for a week, but he found a reason to talk to me by Wednesday. It only lasted 2.5 days. He came to ask me something work related. I will try to be a little more distant. If it works I will be the happiest 30 year old ever…he really is nice to me, but I do wonder how many other women he is nice to. We’re friends on Facebook and yeah, you guessed right, he has many female friends. I wonder if I am just one of the many? Maybe he is just generally nice ? I am keeping my expectations very low. Rejection hurts like hell. Been there twice. I almost died of a disease called tears. There is this comedian we both like. The other day he joked about watching the comedian’s movies together at his place (he has heaps of his movies). Of course, my response was straight up – ‘that would be fun.’ Guess what, now it is like he forgot he suggested that. He doesn’t like going to the movies. He told me that for sure. His words exactly ‘I have lots of his movies. I would rather you come over we watch and laugh than bothering with a bunch of strangers at the movies’. How can a man say this to a woman he knows and forget?? How brutal! Was he just joking? I ask myself so many questions.
@Maxgen…yes we covered some of this, but please appreciate that I am not a very confident person. I can lie that I am this confident and drop dead hot woman wanted by all men and no one here would know, but I am being honest and realistic because I want honest and realistic answers. I am an average looking woman with a great personality (according to my workmates and friends anyway) but really, I am one of those semi-quiet women (the kind that only gets talkative around people she already knows). I know this is my biggest undoing in dating, but what else can I do apart from trying? Talking to a man I fancy has NEVER been easy for me since teenage. It has taken me 7 weeks to say to this guy ‘I kind of like you’. You suggest talking to other men…which ones, Max? I don’t know many men. I wish I knew many:( I am a relatively shy person.
Unknown:
I have much respect for Opus but I disagree with him on this one.
I think you should ask this guy out. Yes, you do run the risk of rejection. Yes, it might not go well. But things aren’t going well for you now. You have nothing to lose by asking this guy out. You like him. He might like you. You’ll never know.
You don’t have plenty of time to find someone. You’re 30. You’re running out of time. If you want something, you will have to be the one to go get it. The fact that the guy found a reason to talk to you despite your distance is an indicator of interest. It’s probably about the clearest IOI you’re going to get from him. Go ask him out now.
Women who say they want boyfriends and husbands in today’s SMP will have to bear some of the risks and searching costs. That is going to include risk of rejection, monetary outlays, and addressing sunk costs.
@Unknown
You’re delusional, that guy will never give you the time of day
You’re going after alpha’s at the age of 30 …
My point is you’re talking to the wrong men, read my above post again, I spelled it for you
Talk to men who want to aggressively pursue you
The key is aggressively …
Men always give clear signals, if they give you mixed signals, theyre not interested, its that simple …
Stop picking the wrong guys, stop going for guys with tons of female friends
You need to find beta’s, the guys you never look at, go for those … the dweebs lol
The guys who cant get a date, to save their life … the guys you dont feel anything for
You know, Unknown, if you put all this advice together, asking this guy out won’t be as big of a risk if you are talking to other guys as well. I agree you’re gonna have to take a risk. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
@ Perspective
Re: your decision to not have children for all the FEARFUL outcomes.
What if you raised great children?
What if the father you selected to raise a family was a stable, god-fearing man whom raised his children according to the scriptures?
What if your children gave you SO much joy?
What if on mother’s day, your kids drew a terrible card for you….but it didn’t matter. To you it was a Rembrandt.
What if………you actually LOVED having a family, & all the joy it can bring?
The price of LOVE is………LOSS.
One way or another, we will all pay that price eventually.
I know more about the price to be paid than most of the bloggers on this site. My wife died of cancer when my son was still in diapers.
Is it awful to pay that price? YES.
Would I undo meeting her, and courting her, and marrying her, and having a child with her? NO.
I certainly have my regrets about her dying, but I do not regret what we built when we were together.
What if, by opening yourself up to the possibility of children………..that man entered into your life?
@ Unknown “He came to ask me something work related. ”
Do you work with this guy ? One of the golden rules in business is not to crap where one eats.
If so, good luck on this one.
If you think rejection hurts like hell / uncomfortable try working in a environment hours a day where people are talking behind your back. Not to mention the possible repercussions / damage to your career.
If you are going “to pursue”- come up with something subtle that appeals to him since you are in a minefield whether it be work or rejection (“get over with it” as a buddy from Italy use to say).
He should “get it”. If not, then he is simply not interested.
Well since you didn’t ask …
Unknown, what is the matter with you? The fellow did ask you out.
Look >>> ” His words exactly ‘I have lots of his movies. I would rather you come over we watch and laugh than bothering with a bunch of strangers at the movies’. “
And you gave a characteristically non-committal, open-ended, character-armoured, fire-and-forget response.
” ‘that would be fun.’”
He hasn’t forgotten. He thinks you have.
Remember he’s likely more than a bit leery, as a workplace thang that crashes and burns is career suicide for the man (“the predator”, always). And even opening with a view to you-know-what on a workmate can land you (Mr You, that is) in front of the HR harpies and a sexual harassment number nailed to your CV’s casket.
Go stick a Post-It on his screen or whatever, if you lack the maturity to ask him with your actual voice. Write on it “So. How come this movie collection of yours is so awesome and better than on the silver screen? I demand proof. Any time you like.”
DON’T sign it. And don’t let any other girls see you doing it.
I have this mental picture of you sitting on the park bench together on lunch breaks, thighs pointing dead ahead but parallel and not touching. Definitely not touching. You in your Annie Hall hat, and beside you on the bench … Forrest Gump, yarning away.
Honest, that’s what you’re making the guy sound like.
Just get on with it. You won’t die. Every man here has been bitch-fried by nuclear rejections so horribly and so often your intestines would shrivel just to hear it. Trust me, the first half dozen serious ones re-ea-eaaally hurt, as bad as you can imagine. And men don’t do that to girls, anyhow, in my experience. Nor do they blab about it after. Just in case .. oh never mind, “Next!?”
After a few burn-offs, you get the 1000-disregard stare. I kind of miss ’em now. Y’know, feelings ‘n’ shit.
Whisky. My people invented it as a surefire cure-all for the human heart.
@Casey
Thank you for your thoughtful post. The possible scenario you describe in regards to having children would certainly be a blessing. However, and I don’t mean to sound so negative, but it could also be the opposite too. I wish I could say that I know the risk would be worth it, (and for many, I’m sure it is) But I just don’t know how I would handle the possible grief and regret that could come with it.
I’m very sorry about your wife. But I’m glad you were blessed with some happiness together while she was still here and of course, the gift of your child together. I’m sure she’s watching over you both. May she rest in peace and God Bless.
@Deti and Hopeful, based on my past experiences in trying to let a guy know I like him, Opus may be right. I have even had one apologise to me for giving me the wrong impression and liking me ‘as a friend’. The ‘sorry, I am seeing someone’ line is not new to me. Some of these experiences have worsened my confidence levels. I am even more withdrawn than I was at 21.
@Michael, you picked it up even though I did not want to state it. Sadly, very sadly, we work together, but not in a related way (as in we don’t have to talk to each other). Two different disciplines. But same head boss (sadly). I am scared as hell, but at the same time…I can’t resist his attention. Maybe I am just a needy freak. I don’t know.
@Max, trust me, he is not alpha male. You could pass him on the street as the delivery guy any day. In fact, he gets the least attention compared to all the men I work with (married, in relationships etc). He has told me some of his darkest secrets (personality issues). That does make me wonder if he sees me as this ‘friend’ and not this ‘female’. No alpha males are ever interested in me anyway. Most men ignore me, actually. It is the women who always tell me how nice of a person I am, how well groomed I am etc. Men never compliment me. It just never happens. You say I pick the wrong guys. Again I ask, which guys?? I am the unknown girl that gets no chance to ‘pick’. Every single day I wake up with the fear (and acknowledgement) of the fact that I am likely to spend the rest of my life alone.
@Tam, how was I supposed to respond? Kissing him? Surely he could not have misread what I said. I responded with a wide, genuine smile. As he always does, he stared into my eyes and said nothing else. Then he forgot. That was the end of it. The only other thing he has told me so far is that he thinks I am funny and ‘I like your jokes, you make me laugh so hard’. You can see why I am confused. Nothing direct like my clear indication that I like HIM (not his jokes or movies) has been uttered. What is a girl supposed to do? Strip naked? You know I can’t do that.
Guys always complain that women are choosy, when it is them that get to ‘pick’.
@Unknown – I agree with Tam. The guy did ask you out and was probably expecting you to ask him when you should come over and watch the films. The guy is probably really shy and isn’t used to asking women out.
The next time you talk with him, when there is a pause in the conversation, slip in something like, “So… does your offer to watch the (comedian’s) movies at your place still stand? Maybe we could watch some this weekend.” If he says, Okay. Then you say, “Great, what time should I come over?” If he says, I don’t know, say something like “Is 6 okay?”
Maybe he just wants to be friends, maybe he’s into you, however I think you are going to have to make most of the moves in this case.
@Perspective – go back and read what Tam the Bam said. He did ask you out but you didn’t bite. As THB mentioned – This is waaaaayyyy thin ice for the both of you.
What about a work related lunch to pick his brain / ask questions whether just the two of you or in group? This is will you a chance to check compatibility and give you a chance to know each other.
As a side note – lose the tingles and get your priorities straight.
This is one of the reasons I remain in favor of arranged marriages. I doubt they would work well in the current legal climate, but something like this could be solved by a very good matchmaker. Having to rely on “reading IOIs” and other such things opens a lot of areas for mistakes.
Typo on name@ Unknown – go back and read what Tam the Bam said. He did ask you out but you didn’t bite. As THB mentioned – This is waaaaayyyy thin ice for the both of you since it is work (Btw, typical female by omitting the truth and not mentioning work 🙂 )
What about a work related lunch to pick his brain / ask questions whether just the two of you or in group? This is will you a chance to check compatibility and give you a chance to know each other.
As a side note – lose the tingles and get your priorities straight – bullets are live regarding this situation and the consequences are costly if you cant think straight.
@BradA
I once asked TFH about arranged marriage, and his view was that it would only work within a culture of arranged marriage, and he was further of the view that modern America was not that culture.
My own view is that at any time a man has a choice of no one or a choice of one person to marry should that be his desire. We think we have endless and unlimited choice, but that choice is illusory. When choice is limited decisions are easy: when women in their forties are still dithering, they will never decide any more than they ever did. They will delay decision until the only people who will have them are The Church or as Prime Minister John Major once felicitously put it in his fabulist vision of Rural England, ‘Old Maids bicycling to Holy Communion through the morning Mists’. We know they were not like that when they were younger; Major referred to OLD maids.
@ JohnD and Mikesinger, thanks. I will need to find the courage to, which, as is, is diminishing. While I am doing that, I will keep hoping he will remember that it was HIS suggestion, not mine. For now, I will try Opus’ ‘be distant’ idea and if he seeks my attention again I will use your suggestions. Remember however that I have already told the guy I like him. He is well aware of this and he is also aware I am single. He is not shy, I see how he talks to other workmates. On a rate of 1-10, I am a 8% shy and he is a 1% shy. But you see…it is these games that frustrate me. Why bother inviting me to something and forgetting? Why traumatize a woman like this??
@Brad, I agree arranged relationships are ok to some extent, but not arranged marriages. Relationships allow you to assess yourselves for marriage. Marriage is a lot to ask of someone and I personally believe it is better to not pressure anyone into it if he or she is not for it. It is important to discuss the subject in good time though.
“Higher education for women for a woman is not waste if her values/morals remain intact.”
And many do.
“As a side note, imo most women only make it through school by sponging off guys in exchange for sex. So much for being self sufficient.”
Most women I know made it through school by holding down a job (or two), taking student loans, and sometimes scholarships. Some are lucky to have their parents help them out but due to increasing economic difficulties, parental funded education seems to occur more within the wealthy/upper class-not so much with average middle class families.
“Really think about this – what good is it to have a higher education (master on up) that leads to a short term career ? What good is higher education that deceitfully promises a career if one cant maintain a healthy relationship due to wrecked values /morals ?”
Assuming her values remain intact, I think a short term career would still be more beneficial than no career at all. Even if she only worked a few years prior to starting a family, she could still manage to put away a substantial amount of income that would no doubt be beneficial to her family and household. Also, a woman with higher education who even works part-time in her field, can make a make a lot more in much less time than one with no education. Women without post-secondary are often limited to positions like cashier, receptionist, store clerk, baby sitter, janitorial work, etc. Then there is nothing wrong with these positions, but the little income generated from for all the time and effort put into them, not to mention the crappy treatment from others who deem such people in these positions as “lowly” and “inferior” in spite of earning an honest living, may not be worth the stress, often crappy pay and working conditions, and most importantly, the time away from her husband, family and household.
“Women who have left the care/protection of their fathers to purse a high education are a casualty without knowing it.”
For families concerned about their daughters becoming “casualties” there is the option of sending her to a college in their city or earning her degree through correspondence or online. But really, a lot of female students are there simply to earn the piece of paper and to get out as quickly as possible. Honestly, it’s not one big “party” for a lot of young women. Many are shy and are quite anxious by the social aspects (even the harmless ones) of college, and are literally just counting down the days until grad.
I know this topic has already been beaten to death like a pinata and after this I’ll try to put it to rest, but in response to your comment about a child free marriage being “legalized prostitution,” I’m going to have to say I agree with CFman’s reply which was;
“I’m also not sure how marriage can be considered legalized prostitution when the woman is working and earning money. This definition is only applicable when the women earns no money and is valued only for sex.”
@Unknown – I hope it works out for you, but realize that it may also be possible that he only likes you as a friend.
Perspective, thanks for your warm response to my thoughts – much appreciated!
@Perspective “Assuming her values remain intact,”
– How many women make it through the follies of youth & college with morals intact ?’
– How are you defining morals intact ?
“Women without post-secondary are often limited to positions like cashier, receptionist, store clerk, baby sitter, janitorial work, etc.”
Really ? What degree did they get their education in ? Many women I know w/bachelor degrees make $95k – $150k.
“As a side note, imo most women only make it through school by sponging off guys “. My observation -more girls with their boyfriends than the other way around.
In addition, I had Las Vegas as part of my territory as years. During that time, I found out (interesting story) many 9-10 female students would fly in and would work Fri-Sun due to big $$$$ ROI for minimal time.
“Honestly, it’s not one big “party” for a lot of young women”
Sorry but my experience based on SDSU & UCSB from the 80’s begs to differ. Dalrock posted a recent article – Better get out the spackle / Vindication Of The Writings Of Men over at Return of Kings that confirms this.
While there are “exceptions to the rules”, I am referring to the “general rule of thumb”.
“about a child free marriage being “legalized prostitution”
ANY marriage in the USA is legally reduced to “dejure legalized prostitution”
No fault divorce as it is leaves any marriage as “legalized prostitution” (Kids can sometimes be a deciding factor for working out the situation).
By your reply, I dont think you really understand no fault divorce and how it is gender biased against men.
@Michael Singer
“Sorry but my experience based on SDSU & UCSB from the 80′s begs to differ. ”
This statement practically defines confirmation bias. You are using two of the the biggest party schools in the nation to support your idea that lots of women party in school. According to FiestaFrog.com, SDSU or STDSU, as it is sometimes referred to, is currently ranked 26th in the country and UCSB (“University of Casual Sex and Booze”)is ranked 12th on the list of top party schools. These schools are the exceptions to the rule, not the “general rule of thumb”.
“By your reply, I dont think you really understand no fault divorce and how it is gender biased against men.”
So, because the laws are biased against men, marriage is legalized prostitution? Since prostitution is trading sex for money, I have to assume that you think marriage is primarily about sex. How else could you make the leap from marriage to prostitution?
I’m not following your logic here, or perhaps it was just a bad assumption on my part to think that there was logic to be followed.
@ CF (wo)Man – “You are using two of the the biggest party schools” ranked 26th & 12th.”
That is where I and my friends attended.
Btw – so are you inferring that that only these 100 schools are the only ones and none of the other schools “party”?
Btw, college campuses across the nation have seen “a increase” in drugs and binge drinking, casual sex, abortions, and STDS – this cannot be denied.
Regard to Marriage 2.0 based on no fault divorce – it is legally “dejure” (look it up) legalized prostitution. Somehow the legal system has determined the “standard of marriage” can be maintained in two households across all economic classes
Since you use surveys, dismiss empirical data except your own, and give credibility to movie stars / celebrities (yes you did this – typical woman ). Any logic or interpretation of empirical data is totally useless.
@CF (Wo)Man
“According to statistics, one in five women today delays pregnancy until after the age of 35.”
“the number of voluntarily childfree women in the world is continuing to grow.”
– What other countries beside the USA ?
As mentioned, never never never denied CF- Not by a longshot.
As mentioned “ad nauseum” – there is a reason why or she is lying.
“Will you stop bringing up the survey (which was 4000 people, not 400)”
Whether it be 4, 40, 400, 4000 whatever – the actual number simply doesn’t matter. As you pointed your own double standard in using only empirical data.
“I can give you personal accounts of women”
Allow me to reply to you using your quote “Your own anecdotal evidence may say one thing, but you just aren’t meeting the right people. ”
As mentioned, my background is in medical specifically hep b/c, organ transplantation of which I see all sort of people with “their situation” and work with people a heck of lot smarter and better educated than myself.
Also, report & present credible empirical statistics / studies.
Interestingly enough, I am from San Diego, CA which has really unique demographics due to the proximity to Mexico as well as the Asian population (family orientated cultures).
“Time Magazine even has a Childfree Life”
North America is one big experiment in world history- there has been no other country quite like the North America – We are not a “race of people” where as other countries are (Aussie land is twice removed cousin)
You really missed the subtly of Chris Rock. In economics there is the law of diminishing returns. Well, there the law of “diminishing returns for human nature as well”. The same hold true in marriage and all intimate relationships.
If CFBFU works for you and your husband – cool. I honestly believe that is the best solution for your situation as well as society (apples dont fall far from trees).
Many societies have benefited from certain people NOT breeding.
@Michael Singer
“What other countries beside the USA ?”
Oh, I don’t know…. Maybe in a majority of developed countries in the world!
“In most of the less developed countries the percentage of childless women in their late 40s is typically under 10 percent. And in some populous nations, such India, Indonesia, Pakistan, South Africa and Turkey, the proportion of women remaining childless by their late 40s is below 5 percent. In contrast, in the majority of developed countries childlessness among women at the end of their reproductive careers is above 10 percent. In some countries, such as England, Germany, the Netherlands and the United States, the proportions are substantial, with approximately one in five women in their late 40s remaining childless. Higher proportions are observed in Italy and Switzerland, where one in four women in their late 40s is childless. (See graph)
In Australia, Germany, Italy and the US, the proportion of childlessness among women in their late 40s has doubled over the past three decades.”
“Btw – so are you inferring that that only these 100 schools are the only ones and none of the other schools “party”?”
Absolutely not. What I’m saying is that any school on that list is likely to have a much higher rate of partying than the average school across the nation and using them as examples to prove your point is just confirmation bias.
Now you mention that the area you live in has a unique demographic, as if that is supposed to strengthen your argument for using your own experiences to back up your position.
You are not denying CF, but you ARE denying that women are CF by CHOICE. You have made this very clear. You even have the audacity to discount my own personal decision in the matter by referring to me as CFBFU and insisting there has to be some skeletons from my past influencing the decision and that I really did arrive at this point on my own terms. You questioned me about my past and then refused to believe my answers. I must by lying, because I don’t fit into your mold. Are you really that narrow-minded?
@ CF (wo)Man aka Femnazi
“Time Magazine even has a Childfree Life”
North America is one big experiment in world history- there has been no other country quite like the North America.
I’ll connect the dots and feel free to agree or disagree.
-America is “not a race of people” – it is a experiment
-America does not have a common culture &values
– America is arguably the largest “exports” of immorality in the world
America is a young country and has fragmented values, fragmented religion, and multiculturalism.
These are all undeniable. There are more but lets “kiss”.
CF is nothing new. It has been seen in other cultures throughout the centuries. In review, it would appear Rome would probably be the closest to the US/UK/Europe.
Two points:
All the “spouting” the increase CF is merely “argumentum ad populum” (it is occurring – there is no denial). However, his pony has not made it around the track – it is simply out of the gate.
The outcomes of this wave of CF is yet to be seen – it will take another 25-50 years. Given the history of Rome (violent & Hedonistic to the nth degree) and US/UK current cultures(the same) – what do you think the outcome will be ?
To spout CFBC is “by choice” without “behind the scenes” credible/believable information is obvious screaming contradiction.
The unspoken omission of the “behind the scenes” credible/believable factors that went into the “by choice” is what is not mentioned for numerous reasons.
Do you honestly think everybody is THAT stupid/gullible to go along with CFBC with some willy nilly shallow reason ? This lack of credible reasoning alone shows you are femnazi. They may not say it to your face – but somewhat intelligent people do think and draw conclusions of which observation over time will reveal all.
You previously asked if I thought “marriage is primarily about sex”. The reason I didnt answer because that is takes the top of the list for the most asinine question asked of which I ignored. Whatever brings two people together will either keep them together or break apart.
People marry for multiple various reasons and each situation is truly unique and individual – this cannot be denied.
As mentioned, there is the law of diminishing returns/happiness in relationships.
This “law of diminishing returns/happiness” requires more fuel w/women.
Relationships / life can become quite dry between 2 people over time – lets see how you and hubby are doing after 5-10 years.
I congratulate you for your choice. What the outcome will be is still unknown – time tells all.
After really thinking about – you have expanded my criteria of CFBFU (excluding born deficiencies).
If woman mentions she doesn’t want children she is lying and/or unable and/or emotionally sterile.
@Michael Singer
I’m not really even sure what you are arguing at this point.
Your bulleted list of observations about america have no bearing in this argument, so I’m not sure which dots you think you are connecting. We are not discussing the outcome of the choice to remain CF, just the fact that people make the choice for their own reasons beyond the lack of ability to biologically birth a child. I’m not here to list my reasons for my choice or justify it.
I asked you if you thought marriage was primarily about sex because in order to fit the legal definition of prostitution, it would have to be. You are contradicting yourself by saying it’s not about sex and at the same time equating it to prostitution. Throwing in the incorrectly spelled and redundantly used term “dejure” into the argument doesn’t bring marriage any closer to the legal definition of prostitution.
Do you honestly believe that the law of diminishing returns is negated by having children, or that having children will automatically strengthen a marriage? I will see how my relationship with my wife is in 5-10 years. I’m guessing that due to our excellent communication that lead us to decide not to have children that we will be doing just fine.
@CF (wo)Man “fact that people make the choice for their own reasons ” True. Very very true. Very few people are willing to make public of the “real reason” to remain childless when a couple is in the child bearing years.
“contradicting yourself by saying it’s not about sex “- sex is a component of marriage. Finances are a component of marriage. Nothing more nothing less. How they are used is a entirely different matter whether they are used as leverage or coercion.
Since you are on your second marriage – the stats are against you and there is a strong chance you will use this against your husband given the bias against men in the court system.
Since you are unfamiliar with Marriage 2.0 – here is quick run down since you are having a very difficult time connecting the dots.
Marriage that allows women to “no fault divorce at time divorce is legalized prostitution:
– Many couples take lifelong vows.
– Many women frivolously divorce their husbands breaking the lifelong vow
– Men have no say in “no fault divorce
– Women leave the marriage with cash & prizes.
Here is a article that may shed some insight.
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/the-morality-of-marriage-2-0/
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/12/31/lowering-the-boom/
Now if you doubt this – would you marry someone if the written agreement was if anyone did something illegal / immoral they would get none of the community assets acquired during divorce and no say on raising of the children/limited say with a built in judgement clause to avoid divorce lawyers/court ?
Btw, this takes testicular fortitude on both parties- this is called “at fault divorce” or marriage 1.0
“the law of diminishing returns is negated by having children” & ” is in 5-10 years….. that we will be doing just fine”.
I believe in sowing / reaping and consequences. As mentioned “whatever brings two people together” will keep them together or break them apart. This “whatever” can be subject to change depending on the person. People change, desires change, goals change, – this cannot be denied. What keeps two people together (imo) is integrity of the “whatever brings two people together”.
As mentioned, there is no outcome data of CF and I suspect there will eventually be some sort of data however, it will be awhile before 25 year landmark data arrives. IMO, it is not needed – just look at history which simply repeats itself. What happened with childless couples in hedonistic Rome with be the same outcome in hedonistic America or UK or Europe.
And right on cue; here’s “Brittany” now going to church to find her a gullible ‘Churchian’ man to Man Up and marry her: http://omg.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb-news/britney-spears-wacky-church-ensembles-194553276.html?page=1
Mr. Singer- It will be interesting to see what Narcicism will get the western world in the next generation or two. ‘America Alone’ was an interesting read soley for the statistics on child birth rates alone.
What’s funny is, we know what happened to Rome, but we’re centuries separated. Constantinople was around for centuries, had no separation whatsoever from Rome’s fate in terms of historical knowledge… and Constantinople went the way of Rome all the same. One can only hope that modern day ignorance is somehow the magic pill that prevents the western world from repeating the pattern.
Would someone explain why “going to church” is not listed as advice to an unmarried women in her 30s? Church seems to be a place many women in thier 30s find themselves going to every or every other Sunday in the hopes of meeting a Husband. Is church still a good place to meet a nice guy for a girl who wasted her 20s with others?
@Michael ” Is church still a good place to meet a nice guy for a girl who wasted her 20s with others?”
The association of a “nice guy” meeting girl who wasted her 20s at church is a bit of a non sequitur and deceptive. This is given the that the “nice guy” has standards and looks for the same in a partner. I hope I am making sense.
@They call me Tom “interesting to see what Narcicism will get the western world in the next generation or two.”
I’m currently re-reading Gibbons on the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and it appears to be a bit more than good ole fashioned Narcissism & Hedonism in America. The major difference is women have a “education” and hence can inflict more damage when angered (Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned 2.0).
Any society that murders it owns children and the educated are unable and/or unwilling to breed is unhealthy or a truer diagnosis is sick.
Once Rome lost the ability / willingness to promote family values and childbirth – the world fell into the dark ages. The breakdown of the family is the sign of a sick culture – including in this is childlessness by intention or by accident. Given the amount of women on BC and the abortions that have taken place – many women unknowingly became casualties (Included in this is the inability of American women to bond- they are simply “damaged goods and are not marriage/family material”).
@Michael
“Would someone explain why “going to church” is not listed as advice to an unmarried women in her 30s?”
Michael Singer has hinted at it. Considering Sunday morning worship services have been called the “Sunday Nightclub,” I can see why it’s not recommended. Not that I don’t believe there are good men in the church. I do. However, it can be one option among many others. For me, as a black woman, the black church isn’t the best place as there are very few men in the church (most tend to be married even if their wives don’t attend church at all or attend another church, or older, or divorced, which isn’t an entirely bad thing, but you never know). Of course, there are a few diamonds in the rough, but a woman in her 30s should focus on surer bets like work (as long as it’s not same dept), meetup groups, friends, community activities, etc.
@Hopeful ” meeting girl who wasted her 20s”
I think something got lost in translation. While the vast majority of churches are apostate, the situation is a “nice guy” and a ” girl who wasted her 20s “.
The problem isn’t the men in the church – the problem is her. Remember, she is the one who wasted her 20’s not the “nice guy”.
How does a girl waste her 20’s ? By partying, duplicitous relationships, limiting herself to alphas, excluding beta suitors etc.
She is emotionally & mentally damaged goods and is now outclassed by younger women. In addition, she is a ticking biological clock. She can plough ahead like the typical American woman and go to meetup groups, friends, community activities and probably stay single or settle for someone way below her expectations or she can have a metanoia and turn from her developed bad habits.
The problem isnt the men in the church – the problem is her.
“I think something got lost in translation.”
Yes. I’ll clarify my remarks.
Michael asked “Would someone explain why “going to church” is not listed as advice to an unmarried women in her 30s? Church seems to be a place many women in thier 30s find themselves going to every or every other Sunday in the hopes of meeting a Husband.”
Here, I took the focus of these thoughts as directed towards women finding men, which is why my answer focused on the woman’s point of view.
Then Michael ended by asking “Is church still a good place to meet a nice guy for a girl who wasted her 20s with others?”
Here, the focus to me changed from the woman’s point of view to the man’s, which I feel you addressed in your comments from the man’s point of view.
“She can plough ahead like the typical American woman and go to meetup groups, friends, community activities and probably stay single or settle for someone way below her expectations or she can have a metanoia and turn from her developed bad habits.”
Are you advocating repentance on the woman’s part here? Repentance from her feminist ways of degrading men and a spirit of humility and submission to God? If so, I agree with you. Unless the woman repents of her pride and selfishness (which I feel is at the root of women’s problems with men) than any subsequent meetings (whether romantic or otherwise) with men will be compromised. I’ve prayed for and advised some of my friends to stop dating and really seek God for themselves so that they stop creating more players and making it hard for good women and men out here trying to find each other.
@ Hopeful – One can place church / religion on the back burner per se and focus on the problem. I prefer to do this since “religious terms” have a tendency to cloud the issue.
The problem is behavior, relationship etiquette, and expectations. There is now a backlog of failed relationships and unhealthy behaviors which have consequences.
Unless those are acknowledged and worked through to the point of they are put safely under control – they will come back to destroy all relationships. There has to be major shift in thinking and behavior – these dont come overnight and without cost.
Repentance / metanoias have real cost.
Enter back the gospel of discipleship and repentance that leads to life (not American churchanity). What you posted was spot on “advocating repentance on the woman’s part here?” and “really seek God for themselves…..stop creating more players “.
@Opus, Michael, Hopeful and everyone else who took the time to answer my silly questions…I just wanted to let you know I have given up on this. The ‘distant’ thing lasted a day. He walked over to me to say ‘hi, I just wanted to say hello’. And NOTHING else. He hesitated for a minute and left (Of course, I responded). This would be completely fine if we were both 21 or 22 playing games in some college cafeteria. But we are in our 30s and the MAN won’t man up. So, well, this is the end of it, I guess. The hard part is how to go about deleting him off my Facebook. Anyone here think this is a bad idea? I just don’t want to be tempted to stalk and get frustrated any more than I already am. The games tire me. The whole thing is affecting my ability to go about my daily duties way more than I thought it would. So frustrated:(
@Hopeful- Repentance, humility, even just regret at how she treated others (if she’s actually come to an awareness that it isn’t just about what she gets out of things) are a sign of maturity in a woman. I think a woman who does know better by the time she gets to her thirties certainly has better prospects than a woman who doesn’t.
It worked!!! Thanks to Dalrock, deti’s and other men’s postings, I was able to convince one of my brother’s daughters (early 20’s) to get her boyfriend to marry soon; and she is doing that right now.
What is strange is that it was easier to convince the daughter than the father (still resisting).
Advice to women in their 30’s is to mentor the next generation to not repeat the same mistakes they did.
@Unknown “The hard part is how to go about deleting him off my Facebook.”
He is on your Facebook ? Bad move.
You work with the guy – it is be a faux pas to do so.
As a sidenote, I think your romantic expectations are getting the best of you- they are a tad unrealistic.
@ Michael, I know. I just didn’t think it would affect me this much. As regards Facebook, HE added me (sent the request). I never add workmates. They always put me in the awkward position of accepting their requests (I accept them because I don’t want to appear rude). I would prefer if they did not send those requests. Especially THIS ONE! He never likes or comments on any of my stuff, once or twice, maybe, but I notice how busy he is on all other workmates’ profiles. I just want to move on…but he will notice straight away if I delete him. Awkward. Awkward. Awkward.
RJ, what has that young man done to you that you would want him to throw away his life and become a slave to the state and the whims of a woman?
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
Nothing new nothing remarkable it really is so predictable it becomes a little tedious.
“Revenge!!!” she cries in the name of Equality.
Hi Ton 🙂
Sorry that wasn’t clear who I was talking to was it!?
Unknown – I don’t understand how you imagine this guy you like is playing games?!
He says this:
‘I have lots of his movies. I would rather you come over we watch and laugh than bothering with a bunch of strangers at the movies’.
Very very clear and straight forward and easy to follow the cue no?
But perhaps he’s shy or not clear on your interest – what are your intentions btw?
So he doesn’t lock in the date and you avoid him.
You say
“How can a man say this to a woman he knows and forget?? How brutal!”
What’s brutal about him not repeating his offer?!
If you’re really keen on him – don’t threaten to delete his facebook as if that’s the only option left in life – approach your friend (work-friend mind you – risky business as Michael Singer warns!)
and as him directly if he’s still keen on having you around to watch those movies and if he IS keen, what would he like you to make for dinner?!
Simple 🙂
If he chooses to reject your approach well you’ve lost no dignity.
Your suggestions of stripping naked to show interest were hilarious btw! Girl you don’t need to be so hasty – offering to cook him food will show you’re keen enough 🙂
All the best! – and don’t get so dramatic about the Facebook deleting thing. This guy’s done you no wrong. He might end up being your husband! And even if not, you’re friends right? No need for vengeance mode.
@Unknown, start using the word YES.
Your reply to his move suggestion was a non-committal statement. It’s the type of statement guys have heard over and over from women that want to say no, but don’t want to hurt the guy’s feelings by giving him a flat rejection. Many guys have gotten burnt by forging ahead after such a statement so often, that when they get a non-committal response they just let it drop.
“That would be fun” vs “yes, that would be fun.”
@ Hannah, I wish it was that easy for me:( My intention is to get to know him better. I would love to date him. He is a nice man. Average looking but looks are last on my list. Nice man. Very clean too. However I am confused about this ‘niceness’ (generally nice vs nice to me). It is all mixed messages. Asking is very hard. Very hard for a woman like me.
I now see that my answer to the movies thing may have been weak. I thought I was clear and responsive enough. But I didn’t use a dismissive tone. I answered happily! When I am happy… it is usually very clear on my face. I wish I said something like ‘I would love that. Maybe next weekend?’. It bothers me that he has forgotten. Things are a little strange between us now.
@j, thanks. I will remember the yes word. I wish he could ask me out for lunch or something. My answer will be faster than an express train. I will probably faint (in shock and happiness:) But now back to reality…the silence continues:(
Aloha darling! How is my favorite Kiwi?
Unknown, J has the right of it, your answer was noncommittal. Hannah’s advice is spot on but you should say something about how you now realize your 1st answer was vague. Otherwise he’s likely to think your 1st option fell threw and he’s your plan B
OR you could set up an email address, send him a photo of yourself and say ask this girl out, I know she’ll say yes
@ Unknown
1. Your emotional sensitivity is to volatile – drop it to a steady state. You are not able to think, talk, act clearly. The mixed signals is due your inability to “receive” not to due to his transmitting.
2. Go back and read what Hannah said about what he would making him dinner and he’ll bring over a movie. However, I suggest a working lunch is guise of getting to know him and spring boarding into dinner/movie.
3. Do not delete him from Facebook. This is stupid, childish, and you have just given him the upper hand. If a woman does that , this signals to me a cold shoulder and I do like so in return and I hold my position.
@MS
“Really ? What degree did they get their education in ? Many women I know w/bachelor degrees make $95k – $150k.”
I was actually referring to women with only a high school education. I would still consider women (and men) with even just a bachelor’s degree to be educated.
I’ve come across quite a few commentators on here who seem to be for women just marrying right out of high school and not going to college. These are the women to whom I was referring would be limited to minimum wage jobs if they later decide to work part or full time.
“ANY marriage in the USA is legally reduced to “dejure legalized prostitution”
No fault divorce as it is leaves any marriage as “legalized prostitution” (Kids can sometimes be a deciding factor for working out the situation).
By your reply, I dont think you really understand no fault divorce and how it is gender biased against men.”
Although I wasn’t talking about divorce in my last post, I do in fact understand how it is gender biased against men and I completely disagree with the system. I think the only costs the man should be responsible for during divorce are child support and whatever the his ex-wife contributed to during the marriage. And if she was abusive to their children and an unfit parent, I don’t think she should be granted full or even partial custody.
@Hannah
“Perspective, thanks for your warm response to my thoughts – much appreciated!”
You’re very welcome Hannah-anytime:)
@Perspective
Here is a very insightful explanation of “no fault divorce / legalized prostitution”.
Divorce takes 2 people and is certainly needed in “some” situations.
However, what is in place is criminal and the outcomes that it is producing is horrendous.
@Michael, thank you. I will not delete him. The last thing I would want to do is to have him think I want nothing to do with him. I am trying to work on my emotions at the moment. Really trying.
If he talks to me I will suggest making him lunch instead of dinner. Then movies. Now the wait…@Michael, thank you. I will not delete him. The last thing I would want to do is to have him think I want nothing to do with him. I am trying to work on my emotions at the moment. Really trying.
If he talks to me I will suggest making him lunch instead of dinner. Then movies. Now the wait…
@ Michael (and the men here), if a woman tells you she misses you, and you respond with ‘I know. Hang in there’, what (in terms of liking the woman or not liking the woman) would you mean by that? Assume that you know the woman likes you. Could that possibly be a nice way of saying ‘I am not into you, which is why I won’t say I miss you too’?
Unknown:
On the facts posited, he likes her. He’s using a little game. He’s acknowledging her interest while showing his own interest in her, but at the same time he’s not appearing overly eager.
If he didn’t like her he would not respond.
Thank you Deti. Men have some really interesting ways of confusing a woman.
“RJ, what has that young man done to you that you would want him to throw away his life and become a slave to the state and the whims of a woman?”
Assuming you are not sarcastic, I thought one of the key points in the many posts is to encourage ‘young’, attractive women with high SMV to marry young and start a family instead of wasting their valuable SMV riding the carousel with PUA’s.
I am purging my bitterness and being pro-active with the young women I know.
(I just cannot be endlessly bitter like some are here..it eats me up inside)
Of course my actions does reduce the harem count for PUA’s, but I am biased with this one. Also I know this young man. He is not a PUA-alpha-male type (like you are I am assuming based on your posts – not knocking you, just stating the obvious), so he would not be happy being alone. Is it a risk for him? Sure! But society is not going to change during my lifetime with regards to marriage rules, so I am changing my little corner of the world and providing advice to the next younger generation based on the good blogs and useful comments I have read here (yes, including yours). At the very least, this young woman won’t be stumbling here, asking “what to do” because she is single, losing her looks and cannot find the mate “she wants”.
On the other hand, with women over 30, well, there’s plenty of advice here and I can offer none except to parrot what others have said before. If they missed the boat, well, they had their chance. C’est la vie!
I found another perfect example:
Well, most of the women my age (early 30’s) would have happily gone on dates in our early twenties. In fact, we did, sometimes. I don’t think there was any avoidance of the good guys. But I, for one, am deeply, deeply glad that I didn’t marry the man I was in love with at 20, or the one I was in love with at 24. I am more mature, thoughtful, confident, and relaxed now than I was in my early 20’s (and I dress better now too!). While life has taken its toll, I actually think I’m a better catch now than I was then. But then again, I’m single, so what do I know about it? 😉
*sigh* C’est tragique…
I am more mature, thoughtful, confident, and relaxed now than I was in my early 20′s (and I dress better now too!).
She is also significantly less fertile than she was in her early 20s. Some interesting numbers on fertility here: http://www.socalfertility.com/age-and-fertility.
If I’m interpreting their numbers correctly, a woman In her early 20s is fertile 20-25% of the month (about 7 days each month). At 30 that drops to 15% of the month (4 days each month), and the rate goes every year.
Plus at 30 she now (on average) will have a 20% miscarriage rate (vs a 5% rate in her early 20s), and that rate goes up every year she ages. So, even if she manages to get pregnant, there is a 1 in 5 chance she will miscarry.
There is really one (and only one) incentive for a man to marry in modern society: to have children and raise them within a family. But, as can be seen from the numbers above, having children with a woman over 30 is a 50/50 proposition (the odds of having multiple children with a woman over 30 is the proverbial long-shot bet).
Combine that with the 50% divorce rate, and the chances of having even a single child and remaining married “till death do us part” is at best 25% (1 in 4). The odds of having multiple children and remaining married “till death do us part” would be so low as to probably not even be worth computing.
She is not only not a “better catch now” she is for men who want to have children and a family (which is most men who want to marry) not a catch at all. She’s the fish you throw back, because you can’t think of any reason to keep it.
Just a comment…I’m a woman, 47 years young. I’ve been married since 25. When I was 46 my husband went through his mid life crisis. He was seeing a young woman and partying. After 3 months he wanted me back! Of course I said never. Why did I say never? Because I found someone better. Honestly, I have all kinds of men whom would want to be married to me. What I’m trying to say is. There is no shortage of men to marry at any age. I cant be that unusual with these findings. Everywhere I look I see men in need of love and companionship.
This is never going to make an impact, but as a PhD statistician I am going to tell you why all this red pill crap is wrong. Women peak sooner, but men have a broader peak. Those graphs are wrong because, with a fixed number of people in the world, equal between the sexes, you have to scale the curves so that the area under each one is the same. E.g. the top valued man is not a “10,” ever. He’s some relatively lower value scaled by the fact that men’s sexual prime lasts longer. Why is this, for the non math geniuses out there? Because if there are 50 men who are 7.5’s, and there are only 30 women, then men’s actual score and actual value on the dating market is downgraded because he can’t just choose a 7.5 and take her. He is downgraded by competition in the market.
Not only does the male curve have a broader prime, and therefore more area, there is another factor at play – women hit menopause around 55, but most men want to keep having sex into their 70’s. So there are even more men competing for the same women. Finally, consider that “alpha” males often have several girlfriends, taking more off the market. And women are out of the game for longer to recover from being dumped. And women are more likely to focus on their kids after divorce and stay out of the dating market. Lots of factors mean that there are more men competing for the same women. This all serves to downgrade men’s real value on the dating market.
So take that blue curve, and shrink it until the area underneath is the same as the area underneath the women’s curve. This is why women tend to date men 5 years or so older, rather than 16 years older. A lot of this red pill stuff is wishful thinking. There is a little truth to it, but the relative less availability of women overall makes it a weaker effect. If you looked at the curve and said to yourself, “I am going to be a 10 at age 36!” you are probably only going to be a 7.5 because your whole curve has shrunk, due to you competing with a whole lot of men. So that’s the red pill for you. Enjoy it!
Let me add that there is even less area under the female curve because the super attractive part up until age 18 is not even legal for dating. There is a giant tranche of men who are 6’s and 7’s who are going to be competing for a much smaller tranche of 6-7 level of sexual attractiveness in women. So a lot of men will have to either settle or be alone.
Are any of the men still commenting?
I’m late to the discussion, but I found this blog today and after reading it and all the comments, I wish I could apologize to the “beta orbiters” I had for how I treated them when I was younger. I’m 4 months into being 30, but I’ve been aware of my impending expiry date as a marriageable woman, partly because of my mother’s training. She got married around 23 to my biological father in their home country, moved to America with him and had me and my younger brother, then divorced and was able to snare another younger man (she being 32, my stepfather 29 at the time) to marry and take care of us all. I grew up envisioning that by the time I was 25 I’d find someone like my wonderful beta stepfather, not because of any sordid incestuous attraction – but because he was a great provider, worked as an educator, and he was a great leader and father). My fantasy husband and I would raise 5(!) children together. Go ahead and laugh, but I’m a hopeless romantic, a 2nd-gen immigrant with ‘old world’ tastes, and I really love and get along with kids! I thought my fantasy was definitely attainable because I’d watched my mother get the same deal with her beauty and agelessness (today she’s 55 but routinely gets mistaken for 35), plus I felt I had the ‘advantage’ of growing up Westernized, being educated, having my youth and her genes, and being much more ‘likable’ than my mother. My mother suffers from narcissism and is quite abusive, even and especially when she’s being worshiped like she demands.
I discovered that it was ‘easy’ for me to attract boys starting in middle school. My stepfather treated me like his own daughter, though, and he was very protective of my virtue – my first date was my senior prom! I was insecure because my mother was constantly belittling me (telling me I was ugly, a closet lesbian, too nerdy), but when I got to college and had to beat the male attention off with a stick, my ego ballooned. I was convinced that I was better than the betas that I used to get along well with in high school, and could get myself an alpha to marry instead of the boys who wanted to discuss Mortal Kombat and Dark Avengers all day. Yet I felt no one would ask me out but the hopelessly-optimistic betas who persisted despite the fact that my stepfather taught at the university I attended, and was around more than ever to guard my every move. I spent/wasted a lot of time flirting and less time caring about the opportunity my stepfather gave me (free tuition). I used to be studious, but dropped my scholarly interests to be one of the popular girls, and stopped taking life seriously – instead hitting up every party and social on campus, playing a game with myself to see which alpha I could get to ‘fall in love’ with me next. My stepfather had connections to help me get summer jobs, as well, and I screwed those up because I didn’t do the work. I’d avoid being at home because my parents were constantly fighting, and I didn’t want to be a housemaiden, taking care of my new 2 young stepsiblings and doing chores, basically being responsible in any way when I felt I was entitled to ‘the college experience’ and had earned it by being a jailed-up late bloomer.
My stepfather was diagnosed with terminal cancer, and it changed my whole college experience. My mother wasn’t willing to give up her job to be a housewife and look after anybody either, my brother had already moved out to escape my mother’s abuse, and I didn’t want my stepfather to have be both father and mother as he was dying, so I dropped out of college and stayed home to help in any way I could. I think my stepsiblings saw me more as a mother than their sister during that period, because I babysat, fixed their meals, made sure they caught the school bus, helped with homework, tried to keep them from understanding how badly their father was doing. My stepfather finally passed away when I was 23, and shortly after the university gave him a funeral (and my stepfather’s will went into effect), my mother kicked me out because she wanted to get married again, and I would be a tip-off to any potential suitors/suckers that she wasn’t as young as she looked. I went out into the world for the first time without ‘Dad’ to help me, and I had no job, no formal education (only some college), no skills, just my looks. I latched onto the first male who would have me, moved in with him, and gave away my virginity at age 24. Then when that guy got tired of me, it was on to another one, an alpha who knew me from college. My third live-in boyfriend raped me at age 27, and again there was another psychological shift. I wasn’t able to get a criminal conviction against the man (charges were filed but dropped by prosecution for ‘insufficient evidence’), but I’m in the middle of a civil lawsuit against him and the church I joined where I met him, since that church actively tried to cover up that he had assaulted me. I feel like ever since I lost my dad, I’ve been wandering in a haze of life where the mist keeps getting thicker as I age and wonder if I’m salvageable.
My thing is – it will sound insane to most people, but I think some my horrible experiences were necessary in some way because they’ve forced me to see that I was no ‘catch’ in my 20s, and I have to race against time if I’m going to have a shot at giving away the love I know I have in me. I realize now that I was entitled, spoiled, and insecure growing up partly because I had nothing to work for or earn on my own. I was so selfish until my father dying while my mother acted like she was being deprived of life made me see that I didn’t want to be like her, but that was where I was going to end up because I was on the path. I spent every dime I touched because I knew my parents would bail me out of trouble when I needed it, and now I’m on my own trying to fix my credit history. I used to get As in school, now I’m uneducated and working as a housekeeper to keep myself afloat, but in a way I appreciate it because it’s reinforcing the ‘old world’ teachings I had growing up that I tried to escape – that a woman should know how to keep house. I’d like to go back to school, but I’m hoping that that can be a part-time thing I’ll do from home while I raise children. I want to be a stay-at-home mother – to this day I get a lot of happiness from checking in on and visiting my younger stepsiblings and bolstering them up as much as I can, especially when my mother decides she ‘quits’ for weeks at a time and drops the children off at my apartment. I’m not suited for alpha males. It has nothing to do with my looks or that I still get mistaken for being an 18-year-old by complete strangers, but rather that I want a man of substance … if that man will have me.
A lot of comments upthread asked the woman to evaluate what she can bring to the table for a man. Hmm … debt? Working-class income? One thing that I think I have going for me is that my experiences haven’t broken me. I believe in and really try to self-improve – reading, researching, praying, etc. to get better at life. I probably do have some psychological work to do still, but I don’t think I’m resentful or angry. I’m always being complimented on my smile, if that means anything – I can’t help that I smile even when I’m talking (most of the time). I’m grateful that in spite of her faults, I had a mother who modeled hygiene, health, and feminine dress and presentation very well, and I keep myself up to look sweet without being slutty. I can cook any dish from my parents’ home country, a lot of American dishes, and I love to experiment with my own recipes. I can make clothing. I’ve learned to show that I’m a giving person and not just convince myself that I’m so, or that because I’m soft-spoken and rather shy it means I’m submissive, when my actions should show that to be the case. My N is 3, and I’m determined to keep it there until I (hopefully) marry – not to be crass, but if my sexual desires get that intense, masturbation is a lot less headache than the guilt I feel after cheating my future husband out of myself little by little. I don’t smoke, drink, do any recreational drugs, have any prescriptions to worry about, I’m 5’3″ and 115 llbs,, no illness in my family that I know of, keep myself healthy. No tattoos. I speak 3 languages. I don’t have a religious affiliation, I was raised Catholic but I think I lean more towards Judaism in my personal beliefs – I read from the Tanakh/’Old Testament’ daily but don’t believe in the writings of the New Testament? (I forget the rest of the list!)
All this goes to say that to read the comments where men trash certain women for being 30+ older unmarried really cut to my heart, but I know no one would be saying anything if there were no problems to speak of. I understand that nobody wants to be anyone’s consolation prize in marriage. It’s a huge step for a man to choose any single woman and say ‘lets do this forever’, much less to choose a woman who gave him the cold shoulder back when she thought she had ‘better options’ than commitment, security, stability, and a purpose for living and loving.
@ Eva; Seriously, you should network at whatever church you attend, and you would likely find some guy there willing to take you on. Hell, maybe try getting back in touch with one of those beta orbiters you feel so bad about having mistreated back in the day. Surely there must be at least one in particular that sticks in your mind. Reason for such a tough sell at age 30 is because your best reproductive years are behind you. While you stand a good chance of getting a man, the reality on the ground is you might not be having any children because you waited too long.
Pingback: A Must Read Story | Donal Graeme
Thanks for your reply Theodore! Concerning my old friends, most of them are married and the ones who aren’t either won’t talk to me (yeah, I became that much of a raging beyotch once I thought I was hot) or they’re in relationships likely leading to marriage. I also feel like it would be opportunistic of me to go back and basically say “you were my 2nd choice when I was flying high, but now that I’m lagging in the race wanna be my 1st choice again?” – nobody deserves that. I thought maybe it was best to try and start fresh, and live honestly and hope one man will see that the good I’m trying to establish outweighs the bad that I’ve done. I don’t attend a church and personally don’t think the church is the best place to find men – maybe I’m wrong? I thought maybe to get back into my ‘nerd girl’ hobbies, and I’m also moving out to a part of the country where the male-to-female ratio favors women so I can take advantage of the job opportunities, as well as hopefully start dating again (the smart way this time). It’s just, you’re right, the children dream really breaks my heart if it turns out that I’m dried up. But it’s really encouraging to read you say that I at least have a chance of marrying.
@Kelly
So is your PhD the root of the reason you are on this thread?
If this woman could snag a beta after 30, than any woman can:
Amy Webb: How I hacked online dating
I think your chances are better than you believe. Both my wife and I married late (37 and 35 respectively), and we have two wonderful kids. Church is a bad place to look if you aren’t devout yourself. Spiritual men deserve spiritual wives. The “nerd girl” hobbies is a good idea – conventions, cosplaying, etc. Cosplaying always struck me as an overlooked opportunity for harvesting alpha nerds. Go as Daenerys Targaryen and rustle up your Jon Snow.
Be friendly, kind, and slender. That’s really all a woman needs at any age.
“My third live-in boyfriend raped me at age 27, and again there was another psychological shift. I wasn’t able to get a criminal conviction against the man (charges were filed but dropped by prosecution for ‘insufficient evidence’), but I’m in the middle of a civil lawsuit against him and the church I joined where I met him, since that church actively tried to cover up that he had assaulted me.”
This should be a BIG red flag for any man thinking of marrying you.
Eva,
Bee said it best, you may not be marriagble. At all.
Ask yourself this Eva, seriously, how does a live-in-boyfriend rape his girlfriend? How does that work? You are living together, you are boyfriend and girlfriend. Am I correct to assume the two of you were already having consentual sex? How does he rape you?
I am not surprised that the prosecution dropped the case. The DA probably figured he or she would be wasting the taxpayer’s money knowing there would be no chance at all at convicting your ex-boyfriend. I know nothing about your situation, but I do know a thing or two about rape. Live-in-boyfriends, they don’t rape girlfriends.
You want to get married Eva? Re-evaluate and re-examine your life.
@Bee and @innocentbystanderboston
Wow, I’m really sorry that part of my story offended you! I realize it’s a red flag, it’s not something I go around telling people anymore – I got a lot of “wtf” and “oh please” reactions like yours when I did try to report it, so I’ve learned my lesson in that regard. I’m not looking for an argument or being snide (it’s hard to convey tone online), I just genuinely want to know: if you have a girlfriend, and she’s dead asleep in bed next to you while you’re awake and aroused, is it acceptable to spread her legs and start humping her until she wakes up in pain? I have text messages from my ex where he called his actions rape and apologized; I showed those to the police and charges were filed but later dropped for “insufficient evidence” and that’s what I can’t understand to this day. I also mentioned I’m in a suit against the ex and the church that punished me for reporting my ex (I was kicked out of membership) – the suit is still ongoing, but my ex has defaulted on coming up with a defense. I honestly don’t know how men see rape, I could be crying for no big deal. Anyway, it’s over and I’m trying to re-evaluate and re-examine my life, that’s why I thought I’d post here and be honest and hopefully the men would be honest with me. ‘Not marriageable’ is the only answer I need if that’s your honest opinion.
@asinusspinasmasticans Thank you for your advice 🙂 I have a few questions if it’s okay:
– do you find that you and your wife are an age exception compared to other married couples you know?
– how did you meet your wife/she meet you?
Are thirty plus women really having suh a hard time marrying? I’ve been to a lot of weddings where the bride was over thirty.
No AJ, they’re not, in fact that are getting married at record rates. I advise all women to not even consider marriage until they’re at least 35. Have fun! Getting married young to a man who is at the start of his ladder is such a bummer. That’s what thugs are for, duh! That young man can just get his shit together and marry the 35 year old cougar when she is good and ready!
@ AJ –
They are having trouble marrying the man they want to marry.
@Eva –
My wife and I are older, smarter, and better looking than the parents of our children’s friends 🙂
I met her on a ship where we were both working. Neither of us could speak the other’s language upon first meeting, though.
@AJ and FH: Maybe the better questions to ask instead are:
1. “How many of those women over 30 who are marrying at such record rates are STILL MARRIED after, say, five years?”
2. “Of those women over 30 who divorce after five or so years of marriage, what percentage find another victim within 12-24 months and remarry and what percentage find that they’ve blown their one and only shot at marriage and are destined to be cougar wannabes and/or feline foster parents for the rest of their lives?”
@Eva,
“Wow, I’m really sorry that part of my story offended you!”
I am not offended by anything you have written here. You have not offended me at all. “Offense” may be a defense mechanism for you.
I desire to help young people who wish to marry to make wise choices in a mate. My comment was meant to point out to single men that this part of your life story should be a BIG red flag when considering a woman as a mate.
The rape in your situation is only one of many moving parts that are packed together in this season of your life. Each part is a red flag in and of itself.
“‘Not marriageable’ is the only answer I need if that’s your honest opinion.”
I will let IBB comment for himself.
I think you are over reacting to my comment. Show me where in my comment I said you were “Not marriageable”.
Eva:
Unfortunately, I can’t offer you any specific useful advice, but I will say this: a hearty Thank You for being so candid about your past and your current situation. That is all too rare an attribute among women who visit here. But that rare quality is what will probably not only help you recover faster from the devastating effects of your past, but will also very likely help you attract a man who will consider you to be marriage material. If your other qualities create attraction signals in a man, your honesty, however painful it might be for both of you in the short term, will be infinitely beneficial in helping both of you to assess the feasibility of a successful life-long relationship. If he’s willing to understand your past and accept it for what it is and you for who you are, and thus has at least SOME tools at his disposal with which to cope with it, then that puts you light years ahead of most people in similar situations and will preclude a lot of unnecessary suffering, for both of you, in the future.
Best of luck to you and God speed!
Third live in boyfriend at only 27, and he is a Rapist. Wow!
Eva:
This is going to be very hard for you to read, I think.
Yes, the “My live in boyfriend raped me and I’m suing him over it” is a huge red flag. It indicates that a relationship with you could be risky.
The fact that you’ve filed a lawsuit against him (presumably for money damages) and against the church that kicked you out is even worse, because it strongly indicates that you haven’t gotten past it. No man should enter into a relationship with you until you really have put that past behind you. Because as long as you are pursuing a lawsuit over it, it will be foremost in your mind.
I’m not saying you weren’t raped. Perhaps you were, perhaps you weren’t. You are not responsible for what you claim was your ex shack-up’s conduct. Claims of other persons’ civil liability to you notwithstanding, you did put yourself into the position of living with a man who would or could or did do that to you. I realize that no one is perfect and things cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy. But I bet that if I drill down deep enough with you, I would discover that you didn’t vet your shackup very well; you didn’t assess his character; or you did know his deficient character and you went ahead and moved in with him anyway.
Take your share of the responsibility, own it, resolve not to do it again, learn from it, and move on. The lawsuit indicates that you want someone to pay for what was done to you, so that you don’t have to take your share of the responsibility for your part in it.
If you really want it to be over with, drop the lawsuit and let it all go. Don’t contact your ex BF. Drop the suit against the church. Shake the dust from your feet as to both him and that church, and move on with your life once and for all.
Eva,
Do Exactly as Deti said. You must do all that first. Until you do that, you are not marriable material in my eyes. I’m sorry if that stings.
And if you DON’T drop the lawsuits, and they go to trial, win or lose Eva, you may have done some PERMINANT DAMAGE to your marriability far worse than the size of your N. For the rest of your life my dear. Because subconciously, you have convinced yourself that through everything that has happened with live-in-boyfriend #3, you need to be made whole by someone else for what you feel he or the church took from you.
What did he take from you? What did the church take from you? That is why some entity files a civil lawsuit, to be made whole by someone else in the form of financial damages.
You can sue anyone for anything, that is true. But it supposed to be a big deal. I have sued twice and have been sued twice. In both cases where I filed lawsuits (specifically because it was such a big deal), the party I was suing cut me a check for ALL that I asked for just hours before we went to trial (that way they didn’t have to pay a lawyer to show up in court to represent them in what would have been a sure loser for them.) In the two cases where I was being sued, the other party kept asking to cut a deal and I kept saying “…nah, lets go to court” and they dropped the case just hours before we got there. They dropped it because theirs was a loser and their position was not a big deal, no damage to them on my part.
Ask yourself this, why do you want this boy to give you money? I’m sure he hurt you, but what do you gain from taking money from him? What did he take from you that you weren’t already giving to him freely, of your own free will, that now requires financial compensation? What did the church take from you that requires them to pay you?
@Bee I’m sorry if I read your comment wrong, it was only one sentence and I conflated my response to you with my response to @innocentbystanderboston. I didn’t say you said that I was ‘not marriageable’ (ugly grammar? haha). I was replying to @innocentbystanderboston because he started off his comment saying I may not be fit to marry – what I mean to say was, “okay, if that’s your opinion that’s all I need to read to be clear on your opinion”.
@ferriker Thanks, your words mean a lot to me.
@Opus Yup, I was a real winner at 27, I think that’s why I did so well in picking men to share my time and assets with.
Maybe it’s nobody’s intention, I just can’t help feeling beat up by some of the comments. I don’t know how else to explain that I KNOW I’m in deep because of my life choices.
@deti Okay, your comment hurts, but I do appreciate you writing to me. I haven’t been in any type of relationship (or even dated) since my ex, at first I thought I would wait until the suit was over and try to re-build my life, but it seemed like the suit was ending and I turned 30 this year and I didn’t think I had any more time to gamble. You don’t have to ask, I assure you that I chose to be with the guys I did because I knew I had nothing more to offer than sex and being a maid, and I never vetted any guy because I needed them more than they needed me (e.g. when I met the first guy, I was homeless). But I guess with the ex in question – a prominent leader in the church where I met him, and being told by him that our relationship would lead to marriage – I thought I had picked a good man. We had a lot in common and I thought we respected and treated each other well, he helped me get back into college, and I didn’t move in with him until after a year of knowing him. Certainly I’d never heard that he had hurt any women before me. When I first went out looking for a lawyer to represent, I admit that I was hurt and destroyed by how he and the church mocked me and chased me out. The incident also happened right before I was meant to start at my new college, and I couldn’t keep it together to make it through my classes, so I flunked out. I ended up moving to another city because I couldn’t stand to be stalked and threatened while the criminal charges were in process. Today I have a large chunk of my debt owed to screwing up with the college that I’m probably never going to be able to pay, but I feel like if the assault had never happened I wouldn’t have shipwrecked my education. That’s what I’m suing for. I never contact my ex, I’ve severed all ties with the church as well, nobody knows (or should know) where I live and I’m trying to keep it that way forever. It’s just really painfully hard to read that I should consider swallowing the assault, the aftermath, the physical and financial devastation on my own if I want to move on – meanwhile those people threw a party when I left. I’m not angry or crying about the past everyday anymore, but there’s absolutely no hope that I can ever clean enough toilets to get my head above water if I’m not allowed to ask for accountability.
You said that I should take my share of the responsibility, and I promise you that I did that. When the church started to investigate my claims, I told them the entire story including my share in committing sin. I also told them that all I wanted was for someone to make sure the ex wouldn’t repeat his behavior with anyone else. But when the church assembled to judge me and the ex, I was kicked out of membership for fornicating, but the pastor denied that I made an allegation of rape and the pastor told the church that it was actually my ex who confessed to having a sexual relationship outside of marriage and that he wanted to repent before God. That’s just not what happened – I’m the one who approached the pastor and for months the pastor avoided me or getting involved to help, and my ex told everyone I was a liar who was just getting back at him because he didn’t want me anymore. People mocked and harassed me for being a slut with a rape tale. It was at that point that I thought there was no choice but to get the law involved. Nobody thought there was any truth to what I was saying until the ex’s text messages came to public knowledge, and yet to this day no one has sent me a hint of apology. Is it right that I should bear responsibility for my share, but that the others shouldn’t? Am I supposed to bear 100% responsibility for everything so that the ex doesn’t have to bear anything at all? That’s what I read when I see your advice to drop the suit. Yet I hope all of this doesn’t make me sound like a feminist rebel who just wants to be right. I realize you mean well, I’m trying not to take these comments as condemnation.
@innocentbystanderboston I didn’t see your comment before I wrote a lengthy reply to @deti, but basically I’m suing for my lost/wasted tuition fees. I don’t know if it’s that the opinion of women in general around here is low, and so the expectation when a female poster comes along with a seeming sob story is that she’s likely to be hiding a dagger behind her back … and I’m not looking for sympathy, but it feels like I’m being picked apart because I was the female in the equation. I don’t know that trying to be candid is helping my credibility with you. I don’t want to use the tired NAWALT, because I can’t write enough times that I’ve done wrong. But wrong is wrong whether you’re a man or woman, why am I the only one being told to grin and bear it?
Hello Eva
It’s time for you to stop talking now. Really. Find a godly older woman; preferably a flesh and blood one who pulls no punches. Who calls it straight. I hate to say this, but you might have to find a non-church going woman for it. But find her. The older the better, really.
I’m thinking you’re not gonna find her in your former church because how is it that you were shacked up with a guy from church and no one called you guys out for living in sin?
Look, I’m a woman, and my radar went nuts when I read about your lawsuit and rape. You’re not ready to get married. You may never be. But take at least a year and get yourself together. You sound like a basket case.
I say this with all the Christian sisterly love I can muster.
@Elspeth Thank you for your advice, I mean that sincerely.
I’m honestly embarrassed that I showed my face here. I didn’t realize that people would view me as a basket case. Thanks to all who tried to help.
Eva,
It wasn’t my intent to hurt you. I think you just overshared here. Rapes by people you’re already having sex with and ambiguous lawsuits against churches smell funny.
Even if you have everything together, something tells me you have things to work through that will pop up as soon as marriage gets difficult. And marriage always gets difficult at some point.
Take a little time. Build some accountability. Whatever you do, don’t panic and get married for all the wrong reason just because you’re 30. Your future husband deserves better.
Be well.
@ Eva:
I’m honestly embarrassed that I showed my face here. I didn’t realize that people would view me as a basket case. Thanks to all who tried to help.
Please understand that, as counter-intuitive as it seems to you now, the intent here is not to shame, ridicule, embarrass, or compound the hurt, but to help. I won’t presume to speak for Elspeth here, but I do not believe that she intended the term “basket case” as an insult. Rather, it’s a descriptive term of your present state, one that DOES NOT mean that you are beyond hope of salvage or redemption. As so many here have said upthread, it’s going to take a LOT of work on your part to become whole again, but it’s “doable” IF you want it to happen badly enough. Berlin was rebuilt in a day after the devastation of World War II, and a there is no “quick fix” for a human life that has suffered from years of destructive behavior. It takes time and effort – lots of it. But the reward of a healed life will be worth every minute of it.
And PLEASE, follow Elspeth’s advice: find that older woman who can give you the guidance and mentoring (“tough love,” if you will) that you need. Preferably from a Christian woman, but if not, from any woman with the right experience and frame of mind. Like all else on the path ahead, it might hurt at first, but you’ll be eternally grateful for the medicine to the soul it will provide.
Again, good luck and God speed, and please don’t be a stranger here.
Berlin wasn’t rebuilt in a day…
Sorry!
If I may say so (and we English always laugh about this) you Americans are always suing each other. Legal cases are things that should be avoided like the plague: they take ages, and thus until they are over you will be forever worrying about the outcome. There is of course a 50% chance that you will lose, and when that happens you will want to sue your lawyer for misfeasance, so it will just go on. Then there are the costs and the other sides costs if you lose will be your responsibility also. Litigants are always the worst judges of their own case, and pursuing a case is a way of avoiding reality. Don’t do it, move on. Put it all behind you; take Deti’s advice. Try living without a man for a while. They only seem to make you unhappy.
Eva:
No doubt you are in a tough bind. I hope you realize that the man you were living with was of poor character. I also question what was going on in a church in which he was a “prominent leader”, fornicating with a woman and living with her.
I am not expressing any opinion on the merits of your lawsuit, or the tough financial situation it put you in. You might very well have a good lawsuit, or it might not be a good lawsuit. I don’t know how much responsibility you bear or he bears or a church bears. I don’t know about any of that and I don’t care.
The cynic in me wants to say that you are coming here because you want to snag a man to support you and to help you fend off your creditors in case the lawsuit doesn’t net you any money. I don’t care about that either.
What I am saying is that everything you wrote about is a heap-ton of baggage. It’s all an enormous legal, personal, and financial mess, and a man will have to really, really think twice and thrice before getting seriously involved with you. If you want to get past this, find a husband and get on with your life, the legal issues have GOT to be resolved first.
Eva:
I didn’t get to read some of your other comments.
You’re not being picked apart. It is just that we’ve seen stories like yours before. It always seems that the further we drill down, the more baggage we find.
Elspeth is right. There’s a lot more going on here than can be handled on a website GO find an older lady who might be able to give you some advice.
Keep reading here and don’t be a stranger. But you should not write anything further about your personal circumstance here.
I honestly don’t know how men see rape, I could be crying for no big deal.
Its been a few years gone now since I realized that the majority of Christian women I have ever met have been raped, and/or sexually abused as a child. The numbers are such that on a given street, one of the houses on either side of you has a victim, a perp,, or both in it. One woman I knew cheated three times on her husband and claimed that she was raped all three times. Oddly, after “the rape” she proceeded to have months of sexual liaison with each man, risky public sex, sexual activities never done with her husband, and so forth.
I do not really have a strong opinion about actual rape and its converse, actual rape false charges. Those both are other matters. But this pseudo rape stuff, in marriage, in relationships, and its step cousin sexual abuse as a child has reached epidemic. the epidemic is not one of rape and abuse, it is one of attention seeking.
the epidemic is not one of rape and abuse, it is one of attention seeking.
BINGO.
This will be my last round of “attention seeking”, and I’ll gracefully bow out.
If a woman seduces a man into marrying her, decides at some point early on in the marriage that she’s unsatisfied, and decides to put her husband through a ‘no fault’ divorce…takes his children…cleans out his finances…crushes every good opinion he’s ever had about his wife and women in general…the woman is dead, undeniably wrong. Insult to injury is to take her husband’s money – money she didn’t earn – as alimony to fund her affair with the next men that tickles her fancy. Final nail in the coffin is the majority of society – friends, relatives, the divorce court, feminists at the top – siding with the woman against the man. Regardless of how much love and dedication he put into his family, he’s seen as the sucker who should’ve known better, and got what he deserved for not offering up his testes to please his “unhaaapy” wife.
If a man convinces a woman to live with her, promises her the world, and decides at some point before entering into the marriage that he gets to cash in on the sex part of the contract…takes what little dignity she may have left before meeting him…destroys her hope and ability to function…crushes every good opinion she’s had about him and men in general…the man shouldn’t be held accountable, because the woman made her bed and lied in it with him. Insult to injury is to take his girlfriend’s reputation and smear it publicly as far and wide as he can manage, so that no one living within a 1000-mile radius of the woman will go near her – efforts to repair her life be damned. Oh, and he recently married (not to raped chick), so he’s made like Alimony Wife. Final nail in the coffin is the majority of society – friends, relatives, criminal courts – siding with the man against the woman. Regardless of how much love and dedication she put into trying to build a union with this man, the woman is seen as the one who should’ve known better, but she’s got what she signed up for and really should just let the past go.
I feel like an ass because I was able to see how the first case is an injustice, but I’m not able to see how the 2nd case merits humiliation. That’s probably why I made a serious error in judgment in coming to this site for help.
Eva,
Paragraph #1 involved a sacred act between man and his wife that she violates and (with the power of FORCE from government) extracts pain and wealth from him (for life) through no fault of his own. She broke a contract they both signed before God and Country and he must make her whole. What’s worse, she not only destroys him, she destroys their children, the product of their union that was supposed to be sacred. What she did is an immoral act.
Paragraph #2 involves no sacred act, no union, not even a goverment sanctioned civil ceremony between he and her. They just shack up together (for whatever reason, maybe they just want ot save money?) and either one can end it for any reason (or no reason.) There is no contract. No legal document. And no children. They are roommates (friends with benefits) until one (or the other) calls it quits. The fact that one roommate is hurt by this does not mean that there is any legal repercusions. What he did is an amoral act.
The fact that you compare paragraph #1 with paragraph #2 means you lack the most basic fundamental level of discrimination that men demand of other men (the same discriminaton that society does not demand of people like you) because you are a woman. It does not surprise me that you would think to mention those two paragraphs in the same post. I can say that because (as a woman) you lack moral agency.
Understood @innocentbystanderboston. I may be female without the capacity to comprehend, or whatever (so as long as you’re not insulting me, because I haven’t insulted you or anyone here). I just don’t buy that what the man of the 2nd scenario did is amoral because God doesn’t, either.
Dinah’s story would not appear in Genesis if otherwise. She was a daughter of Israel who strayed and went flirting with the Canaanites surrounding her, who fell prey to a Canaanite prince and was violated for walking into that trap. Her brothers refused to force her to marry the man who raped her, and killed the entire city of men where that rapist ruled. God allowed the tribes of Simeon and Levi (the brothers who exacted vengeance) to erect tribal banners that displayed images of Shechem (city that was destroyed).
There was another woman who was in grave error and played the harlot, and her story appears in Judges. She was a Levite’s concubine but was playing the harlot (i.e. slutting it up) with some other men behind her husband/master’s back. She and the Levite went to visit a town in Benjamin tribal territory, and long story made short the Levite offered his woman to the townspeople, and his woman was gang-raped until she died. In the end, a war between this pocket of Benjamin people was fought against a confederation of Israelite tribes to establish righteousness. God allowed the side that was seeking justice against the Benjamites to win.
No contracts, no sacred acts, no unions, nothing of the sort, yet God showed up for both of these women who had both sinned without question. I’m done my best to lay myself bare, repent, and hope for some justice – but I’m being talked out of what God Himself sanctions on record.
@ Eva; When you “consented” to move in with a guy to “live with him,” having sex regularly is an implied part of the bargain. How the fuck did you get to be as old as you are and not know that?
For your consolation, there is no short supply of blue-pill guys out there willing to look past your baggage and would still marry you. Playing devil’s advocate here, you don’t even have to tell them and just keep it a secret that no one ever knows. You’ve already gone incognito, you’re making a new start, good luck with your new life.
Here’s your dilemma, Eva. Any red-pill guy whether he is younger than you, similar in age to you, or older than you is only going to see you as Grade A Pump & Dump Material, because the red pill man knows the institution of marriage is fucking dead. So yeah, you’re only option is to find a nice blue pill guy who believes the swill/truth you believe in. Hey good luck to you again.
@Theodore: I’ve been advised not to detail any more on my story. I think that’s wise for me to avoid being seen as even more insane than others have already pointed out to me. But maybe re-reading what I’ve already committed to written evidence will answer your question, which I take as “how do you say no to sex after agreeing to live with a man”.
If you’re speaking for red-pill guys in saying that you all agree that “the institution of marriage is dead”, can I ask you in all honesty what the point of complaining about the status quo here is about? I’m not talking about stupid me who believes in “swill” that I now have to sell some hapless victim to save my eggs – take me out of this. The comments critique women’s immoral down to the last detail, but even if a woman comes along saying “I read this and I understand more than ever now that I’ve screwed up, can I make up for my past somehow given your insight into the problem”…she gets told off and wrung out for her tears. Is this a site with a teaching/healing purpose, or a no-women-allowed club for men to engage in schadenfraude? If it’s the latter, that’s not I thought I was getting into when I posted my story for you guys to tear apart. If it’s the former – what am I saying in my posts to provoke some of you to torture me for my experiences??
” But maybe re-reading what I’ve already committed to written evidence will answer your question, which I take as “how do you say no to sex after agreeing to live with a man”. ”
Form*, not evidence
@ Eva: You agreed to living with a man you had no intention of having sex with is where you went wrong. My apologies for being crass.
Okay, thanks, Theodore. Hopefully the admin can stop by to erase my story so I can be spared punches from future readers, but in case not..
A disclaimer for my long-winded personal tale upthread:
I am a 30-year-old woman who missed the marriage boat because I rode the cock carousel. My father spins in his grave at how my life has turned out. I am the deserving target of male mockery. There has never been a fuck-up like my story. In fact, to this day I continue to fuck up because I wont let the past go and strongly believe I suffered a crime that nobody else agrees I could have suffered. All of this shows that though I desperately want to be of value to a good man, I will never make it. Men should rightly avoid my personal trainwreck. The rest of the blah-blah I typed out was just filler information. Please ignore and/or refrain from tomato throwing. I am a self-made clown, but I have feelings.
I spent 10 seconds looking at Eva’s comments, but even that was enough to conclude that, in all likelihood, she’s a feminist troll. Ignore and ban her.
@Eva,
You said you speak 3 languages and like children. Those two things qualify you to work as a nanny. In order to get a top tier, good paying nanny job you would need to move to a wealthy city; i.e. New York, Washington D. C., San Francisco, etc.
@hoellund (sorry if wrong spelling) You gave me 10 seconds of your time, but have enough information to judge that Im a feminist troll. Lets see if I get banned, it should prove what the men at this blog are really about. (Hint: it wouldnt be trying to turn women from their wicked ways)
@Bee Theres no difference in pay between being a nanny and a housekeeper, which is my job. So respectfully, how would a job switch help this crazy feminist dumb broad get married?
I swear, the only people who read anything I had to say with their bash-carousel-rider glasses off were Deti and ferriker.
@ Eva. The men on this website have both higher standards and lower expectations for women than our culture as a whole. But as they have pointed out, there are a lot of men out there (but not here) who are not going to view an Old World 30-year-old woman with an N of 3 as being beyond redemption. Compared to a lot of women out there, you’re in good shape. Move to a new place to get a fresh start, and then be sweet and feminine, deferential but intelligent, humble and dignified, and you’ll be fine.
You don’t even have to hide your past in order to get a good, beta man to care for you. Tell him that you regret your past, as you do, and that having given yourself away to jerks makes you all the more grateful to have a good man now. Treat him like a prince among men, especially in public, and he’ll be delighted to have you.
It sounds to me like you’re really excoriating yourself. Perhaps part of your hope in pursuing the rape issue (a topic that many men will have great sympathy for if discussed in private, but that will cost your reputation a lot when pushed out in public), is to have someone else, especially your church, tell you that you’re not completely wrong.
Of course you’re not completely wrong, Eva. Of course you are also made in the image of God. The rape topic is, at this point, probably a lost cause that is hurting your chance to move on. So, get a fresh start and start talking to a good cognitive-behavioral therapist who can help you sort out the irrational thoughts from the productive thoughts. You’re not the worst person who ever lived, and once you can correctly evaluate yourself, you can draw a man to you who will happily put on a pair of wife goggles.
RE: Eva,
She presents herself as a pretty enticing case for “used, but not abused” for a potential beta-chump buyer.
I just want to point out, that ANY woman who goes the lawyer up and sue route for a perceived transgression is a HUGE red flag!!!
I mean, let me get this straight, she is having regular sex with this guy and suddenly this one incident is a rape that requires her to sue him and (deep pocket alert) the church he is affiliated with! I’m sure the shyster lawyer she consulted (assuming that’s all she did with him) calculated that the church would settle quietly out of court to just make it go away. What with the Catholic church taking its lumps in the media over this sort of thing with priests.
I’ve been in LE for 30 + years, rape victims are usually very hesitant criminal law participants, let alone civil action plaintiffs.
This is a huge warning sign my beta chump friends….proceed with extreme caution!
When I was dating I would discretely inquire about her use of the cops against suitors. Trust me, if words like… arresting officer/charges/bond money/jail visit/parole/probation officer/case pending/court date/restraining order/child custody order/suspension/revocation …or any combo of same comes up….run like your hair is on fire!!!!
IBB,
Paragraph #1 involved a sacred act between man and his wife that she violates and (with the power of FORCE from government) extracts pain and wealth from him (for life) through no fault of his own. She broke a contract they both signed before God and Country and he must make her whole. What’s worse, she not only destroys him, she destroys their children, the product of their union that was supposed to be sacred. What she did is an immoral act.
Paragraph #2 involves no sacred act, no union, not even a goverment sanctioned civil ceremony between he and her. They just shack up together (for whatever reason, maybe they just want ot save money?) and either one can end it for any reason (or no reason.) There is no contract. No legal document. And no children. They are roommates (friends with benefits) until one (or the other) calls it quits. The fact that one roommate is hurt by this does not mean that there is any legal repercusions. What he did is an amoral act.
The fact that you compare paragraph #1 with paragraph #2 means you lack the most basic fundamental level of discrimination that men demand of other men (the same discriminaton that society does not demand of people like you) because you are a woman. It does not surprise me that you would think to mention those two paragraphs in the same post. I can say that because (as a woman) you lack moral agency.
Excellent comment!
And now I understand why Dalrock has posts up such as ‘Debasing marriage’ and ‘Women’s sacred path to marriage…’.
Somehow women are being taught by our current feminist society that ‘shack-up’ is the SAME as marriage. No wonder Eva made the comment she did.
It is useful to point out that the two do not have the same value, neither to the man nor the woman. But the only person who suffers in the long run, is unfortunately, the woman, which is what Eva has found by bitter experience.
How deceitful of these feminist women to lie to young women like Eva!
Eva, honestly, we ALL see your problem. And it is quite simple: things went seriously wrong somewhere in your life but it is not TOTALLY your doing. And if I may offer a ray of hope, you are young enough still to turn this around. But you HAVE to take Elspeth’s advice and seek an older woman in real life you admire (preferably a HAPPILY MARRIED woman) who can advise you on the issues you raise. Avoid the so-called ‘professional’ therapists – they are steeped in the kind of ‘wisdom’ you don’t want (i.e. more feminist lies).
Take charge of your own life from now on. You have a great future ahead. As others have noted, you are way ahead of the game compared to other women your age!
Good luck, and +God bless.
First and foremost, Eva sounds like a troll. Just look at this comment:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/advice-to-a-single-woman-in-her-30s-looking-to-marry/#comment-95660
Am I expected to believe a woman who is 30, working as a housekeeper, and been through such experience would be able to use a words like “red-pill guys” and “status quo” and “hapless victim to save my eggs” and of course the all endearing “schadenfraude” when it hasn’t even been used in the 1500+ comments already on this thread?
Give me a break.
Reread any part of this post. It’s too logically thought out. It’s likely some random white knight man posting, or a really good feminist woman. Props if you’re actually a woman and was able to construct a post like that.
——————————————
However, I will post some actual advice to other women in such situations, and “Eva” if “she” wants to take it at all:
As deti says, your past is your past. You cannot change that. It is not about who was “wrong” or “right.” The only actions that you can control are your own. Stop dwelling on it including dropping the lawsuit.
Forgive those who have sinned against you if any. Repent and ask God for forgiveness for any responsibility that you had in the matter such as not properly vetting the man, living with him, having sex with him, etc. pre-marriage. Ask God to show you where you were engaging in sin and repent.
Read the parable of the talents. Read the story of the vine and the branches. As a Chrisitan you must abide in Jesus, and you will bear good fruit.
Dress modestly, act modestly, cultivate the fruits of the Spirit in your life, pray, read the Word, do good works as you were created to do in Christ Jesus, be chaste.
Along with this also cultivate your physical appearance — exercise, have good nutrition, touch yourself up with make-up, etc. so as to take care of your temple of the Holy Spirit.
Actually, I gave too much credit. It’s probably not a man at all. Sounds like a bitter feminist who is familiar with the manosphere as a whole.
@Deep Strength
Semantic analysis would seem to indicate that Eva is a female feminist.
@ Deep Strength: Cut her some slack. I wasn’t exactly polite in conversing with her. Her story was too good to pass up for my personal amusement at which I did indulge at her expense.
Eva, take this opportunity to learn. Its that simple. Odd isnt it to have to read through blunt and at times hyperbolic reactionary content and have to restrain reacting to the provocation to find any useful meaning. Because that is the day and life of a married man. Nothing straight forward, passive aggressive, Say one thing do another. Be on receiving end of a divorce because one day, after kids, homes, vacations, a decent relationship that is just not heady like early days, sacrifice, shared experiences….bam….she is unhappy.
Figure out what is being said here and why and you will actually make huge strides towards fixing your life and having a happy marriage one day.
95% of the ire you sense here is about the histrionic claim of rape and the absurd litigation that followed. That’s bat shit nuts Eva.
@Eva:
You indicated that the rape occurred when you were 27 years of age; three years ago. You indicated that the civil law suits are in the middle; if I remember the wording correctly. Therefore you have retained an attorney for three years, yet you are financially broke. The attorney would require you to pay periodic fees for the filing of motions and such. If this story is true, your attorney would direct you to seek therapy for the purpose of the therapist testifying in court that the rape resulted in you not completing your college courses. But you did not mention having a therapist, despite being so open about so much. This to me seems incongruent.
But you might be conveying an honest account (MIGHT). Whether you are being honest or not I have the same advice for you that I have for others. Read the New Testament and pray. You claim to believe in God and read the Old Testament. That is a start, but Jesus Christ is the answer. You indicated that you attended a Christian church, so you are aware of the Christian faith. Pursue that and drop the lawsuits. Forgive the rapist and church. Move on with your life.
God bless you, @Mulier and @Spacetraveller. I didn’t think there was any point in coming back here for a ‘day 2’ session of getting kicked around – but your posts help me see myself as not so much of an ogre today. I’m willing to take advice/critique from anyone who can see me as human! I’ll just do my best to ignore anyone else who trashes me for no reason.
Oh, except this comment from @Deep Strength, because I can’t resist:
[i]”Am I expected to believe a woman who is 30, working as a housekeeper, and been through such experience would be able to use a words like “red-pill guys” and “status quo” and “hapless victim to save my eggs” and of course the all endearing “schadenfraude” when it hasn’t even been used in the 1500+ comments already on this thread?
Give me a break.
Reread any part of this post. It’s too logically thought out. It’s likely some random white knight man posting, or a really good feminist woman. Props if you’re actually a woman and was able to construct a post like that.”[/i]
I’m a woman living in North America in 2013, not 1703. I know close to NOBODY read my story (most of you were too busy sniffing for blood) but I stated that my father was a professor before he died. I’m a college drop-out, but I’m able to read and think – maybe not perfectly or ‘like a man’, but I come with a brain. And if you had read the comment I was addressing (the comment you quoted in disbelief) you would see that I used some of the very terms that were presented to me from the comment I was replying to that you quoted. “Red pill” shows up in this thread – you just haven’t read/don’t remember the whole thing. I spelled it wrong, but “schadenfreude” is a term I knew all on my own. I’ll therefore take your props as a compliment!
@vascularity777: Thanks for expressing your doubts without personally attacking me, I appreciate it. I’m taking Deti’s advice not to write any more details here on the public forum, but if you have a way of me contacting you privately then I can answer your questions.
“Eva, take this opportunity to learn. Its that simple. Odd isnt it to have to read through blunt and at times hyperbolic reactionary content and have to restrain reacting to the provocation to find any useful meaning. Because that is the day and life of a married man. Nothing straight forward, passive aggressive, Say one thing do another. Be on receiving end of a divorce because one day, after kids, homes, vacations, a decent relationship that is just not heady like early days, sacrifice, shared experiences….bam….she is unhappy.”
@empath This translates to what, exactly? “We’re beating you up because women beat us up, and you’re a woman, and you’re available for us to beat up, so we’re beating you up, and…how does it feel?” Hey, feel free to not address me, actually.
@ Eva:
I choose to sustain my healthy boundary of limiting contact to this blog. As indicated above, your best bet would be to have an older Christian women befriend and mentor you.
Every person in this world has committed sins. None of us are perfect. With God’s grace you can overcome this. I wish you the best Eva. May God bless you…….
@vascularity777 I really try to find an older God-fearing woman to model, it’s concrete advice that would help to me ground myself faster. Thank you for your kindness, and God bless you, too!
Has Unknown ever really sat down and asked herself why she wants to be married? I mean really thought about it beyond just scratching the surface and coming up with the usual easy answers. I see many women in their 30s who have made getting married their top priority, it’s like they’re trying to fill this huge void in their life. If a person said they were trying to fill a void with drugs or alcohol most people would say that was wrong and it doesn’t address the underlying issue (whatever that might be), however when a person tries to fill that same void with marriage, nobody says a word. They just let the person skip on down the yellow brick road.
Unknown I’m not saying you’re the typical 30 something desperate for marriage, but as Dalrock and some of the commentators mentioned, make sure you know exactly what you want out of marriage and from your future husband.
Now, how can a 30-something woman stand out? I’ll address this from my limited POV as one person. I’m into fitness, so for me a woman who is fit is a great sign because it tells me a lot about he. By fit I mean someone who you can tell they workout and have been working out for a while, I’m not talking about someone who goes for a walk once or twice a week. You see in order to be in really great shape, it takes discipline. I know I’m looking at someone who knows what a long term commitment means. Someone who knows how to set and achieve goals, Someone who probably has other areas of her life in shape also. Granted this isn’t always true, but it tends to be a pretty good indicator. Now for the average guy, as Dalrock mentioned you really just need to be faster than the other campers. Here in America, the bar is pretty low when it comes to fitness. Basically if you’re not fat, you make the first cut.
Best of luck and Dalrock……..keep up the good work.
CNM
I discovered that my story was pingbacked at another blog, and I tried to post this there when I read what was being said about me, but it looks like my comment’s never going to survive moderation.
@vascularity777 Why are you bearing false witness against me?? You asked me details about my story, I explained why it was best not to air anything more on the forum, I asked to be able to answer your questions in private, you declined, the end. Why do you have to make it seem like I was trying to pick you up? From a forum where 99% cant stand me??
I was searching for a way to get my story erased from the Net, and I found that it was pingbacked here – not that anyone should believe me or my motives. I’ll leave you all alone if you would kindly agree to do the same for me. I find a lot of the readers to be unnecessarily cruel over at Dalrock, its spilling over here behind my back and God only knows where else, and I havent done anything to the manosphere to be treated as spectacle. If nobody believes Im for real, why mistreat instead of just ignoring me?
Again, thanks to those who treated me with some level of human decency. To the rest, enjoy your corner on the world wide web, and I’m terribly sorry I came across this place to intrude where I could never be welcome.
@ Eva:
No false witness. I plainly communicated to you here on this blog that I did not believe you and I also replied to you as if you were being real just in case you were. Our chat is over. If you have a need for argument and histrionics find somebody else. I have gone through enough of my own crap and now am in a place in my life that I do not have to put up with women who get off on head games. You’ve been offered sound advice from at least two here. Take it or leave it. I wish you the best….
You said this at the blog I’m talking about:
“She could also have a side agenda of fishing for a man. She offered private contact with me as apparently she picked up on my proclivity to white knight. Although I do not trust her, I treated her with dignity. Perhaps part of her story is true????”
I never said you didn’t believe me. I never said you didn’t treat my case as real just in case it was real. I said you made it seem as though I tried to come on to you, but I asked for your contact only because you asked me personal questions that I didn’t think I should answer here – and that was what I told you upthread. The people at the other blog would not have the whole story without reading here, and that’s why your comment over there came across as dishonest to me. If you think I’m being histrionic for trying to stick to the facts, it’s your prerogative.
Anyway, you’re right, there’s nothing more to say. Take care.
Saw this yesterday: http://www.ariseindiaforum.org/nurse-reveals-the-top-5-regrets-people-make-on-their-deathbed/
Hi Eva,
Nice to ‘meet’ you. I’d like to encourage you not to leave, but to stay and learn 🙂
Your first comment here was just a few days ago, and you’ve already received help and instruction in that time… which is a blessing and not something to discard.
I have a few thoughts on your story that you shared….
Firstly, if this is the first blog of this nature you’ve visited, then you’ve taken in the teachings INCREDIBLY fast!
You read this blog and it’s hundreds and hundreds of comments all in one day, and have processed much already. I’m impressed. You obviously have a sharp mind.
Secondly, your essay reads as a checklist of manospherian speech – recognising you had beta orbiters, the fact that you’ve just passed 30, that you’re accepting of your place in society, that you’ve assessed your mother’s negative example showing you ‘what not to do’ as a woman, that you’re shy and sweet and submissive, that you dream of a husband and children to look after, cook, clean and sew for, that you’re attractive and have youthful genes, that you’re slim, that you’re from a foreign country, smart enough to speak 3 languages yet humble enough to be grateful for your maid’s wages, that you honoured your dying stepfather by caring for him and his children, and that you have ‘old world’ tastes.
Again, it seems you absorbed much of what is discussed around these parts at an incredibly fast pace.
I have some questions and some observations, if you’d like to answer them I’d be happy to interact with you some more, if you’d prefer not to that’s ok 🙂
It appears that you have been unhinged since your stepfather passed away. I am sorry that you are without a man to look up to. Is your brother able to guide you in the absence of a father or husband?
Your mother sounds particularly nasty by all you’ve shared. It sounds as though she has made you suffer. This is truly sad. But my suggestion is that you choose not to speak unkindly of her to others. Choose to honour her, appreciate the blessings that she has given you, and overlook the sins with love as a daughter who esteems her mother.
This may be very difficult, but it will give you practice in several fruits of the spirit 🙂
Saying you were homeless at 23 sounds very dramatic.
Were you actually homeless as in living on the street? Or having been kicked out of home, were you in-between places?
The reason I ask is because your mental state would vastly differ depending on which situation you were in.
Leaving home at 23 is not young. With some education and much practice in the home looking after siblings, you probably left home far better equipped for life than many.
You could have got a job to pay rent, so I wonder why did you latch on to the first male who would have you?
Staying pure until 24 is admirable… I don’t then understand what made you throw it away when you did? Is it because you were accountable to your stepfather and when he died you had no internal moral guide to steer you? Were you still a believer throughout this time?
Then you say that your first live in boyfriend got tired of you, …. WHY did he get tired of you? This could be one of your clues as to why you’re not yet married at 30. (Not a personal attack btw! Just a good possible mirror blind spot check :))
You say you went from the first guy to another and then one more…. serial monogamy. Why? For the romantic thrill? For safety? For provision? Think hard about this, because it will indicate a weakness you could work on.
Ok and now the really big thing…. it’s difficult to address online because I don’t want to come across as insensitive, nor do I want to be graphic in my words.
You say your third live in boyfriend raped you.
To me, this is the reason you’re here. The rest of your story reads like a manosphere catch for some lucky man out there. You’re aware of your past sins and actions, and you regret them. If you value anything about what you’ve been through, it’s that you now recognise your flaws and temptations. You’re interested in self-improving. Even the n 3 passes Deti’s oft repeated good advice…
So I may be wrong, but cushioned in among sweetness, prettiness, slimness, cooking, smiles and a smart brain, you’ve got this curve ball that doesn’t fit in. But you want it to.
Do you want sympathy, validation or justification? Maybe all… or maybe you want the men here to peel back the story to show you the truth of the matter and that’s the thing you’re here to look at.
Better the ugly truth than a pretty lie.
I can relate to that.
Anyway, my take on this Eva, is that you’re living with a guy, sleeping in his bed, sharing your body with him on a regular basis. You agreed to sex by moving in. How and when and where it occurred should stay between the two of you. You mentioned pain, but pain is not the indicator of rape.
Rape causes shame, self-loathing, self-hatred and self-harm… that sort of damage is never going to be repaired through financial gain…. only at the Cross.
Drop the charges. Apologise where appropriate for your actions against your ex boyfriend and church. When you discuss your history with potential suitors, tell them you have lived with and had sex with 3 men. DO NOT share with them the time you woke to your boyfriend having sex with you. It doesn’t matter what word you use to describe it, the guy you tell is being forced to imagine you sexually with another man. Don’t do that to him. Use your wisdom and act with discretion. Drop the charges for this reason also.
@Eva:
“I’m not suited for alpha males. It has nothing to do with my looks or that I still get mistaken for being an 18-year-old by complete strangers, but rather that I want a man of substance … if that man will have me.”
and:
“I don’t smoke, drink, do any recreational drugs, have any prescriptions to worry about, I’m 5’3″ and 115 llbs,, no illness in my family that I know of, keep myself healthy. No tattoos. I speak 3 languages. I don’t have a religious affiliation, I was raised Catholic but I think I lean more towards Judaism in my personal beliefs.”
Eva are you here to meet a man that might one day ask to marry you? Why not. But prove yourself over time, interact with others and inquire about their lives…. be consistent and cheerful and show yourself to be trustworthy. You’ve let it known that you’re available, eventually men are likely to ask more about you. Be relaxed with your approach rather than advertise yourself, and you might hit it off with someone here that one day allows you to be the mother of his 5 children 🙂
In the meantime, continue reading…. and keep working away at your debt. Good on you for being committed to not having sex again outside of marriage. Refrain from explain how you relieve that burden though!
@Eva:
“I find a lot of the readers to be unnecessarily cruel over at Dalrock, its spilling over here behind my back and God only knows where else, and I havent done anything to the manosphere to be treated as spectacle.”
Eva remember you’ve only been here at Dalrock’s for less than a week….!
I encourage you to hold back judgements that are based on hurt feelings.
Wait. Read. Listen. I’ve been reading here for several months and can honestly tell you that you’ve had very kind gracious commenters give you their thoughts! Elspeth is a warm wise online big sister to me , Empathalogism is paternally perceptive, Vascularity777 is humble and kind, and Deti’s words are worth several reads. Be grateful 🙂 Don’t be quick to dismiss what you’ve read here! Oh and donalgraeme is a thoughtful blogger, I don’t think his post treated you as a spectacle at all, you may be imagining something that’s simply not there. He wasn’t mocking you or pointing fingers… I think your comment intrigued him.
Lastly Eva, it interests me that you veer toward Judaism after being raised Catholic. Besides not reading the New Testament, do you still believe that Yeshua died for your sins and has forgiven you? I consider myself a Messianic Gentile, and very much enjoy reading the Old Testament too… but am constantly amazed and overjoyed at how both covenants are revealed through each other. I’d encourage you to read the New Testament and discover how truly Jewish it is. Jacob Prasch from Moriel Ministries is a teacher I’d recommend to look up… he is a Messianic Jew and has much wisdom.
“I run in the path of your commands, for you have set my heart free.”
Psalm 119:32
May God bless you and give you wisdom Eva.
Kind Regards, Hannah
I must say that I enjoyed those fruitful discussion, I am an author and writing my new book,”100 Men Can’t be wrong”. I will seek to reveal this very point hence I ask women to stop complaining about men and train them. Sadly some of us as men were train even by our mothers not to trust woman etc. A woman should never marry a man she cannot train to understand and love her fully, on the other hand she must train herself to be valued and remove her low self worth as taught by society.Stop trying so hard to please him,you are not his slave, you are his equal.
Pingback: Sex, Lies and Statistics. |
@ Collin
Jesus, what claptrap. “Women need to stop complaining about men and train them”.
You are a White Knight and a part of the problem, not the solution.
I dare say your last name is probably indeed hyphenated, displaying to all the castration your father received at the hand of your mother.
Men don’t require training. They simply require the world to let them BE men; not this watered down fruit cup to which you aspire.
See what happens when you start trying to explain things. It’s all thrown back with some rationalization hamster BS. Raped by a live-in boyfriend at 27? Most any girl I’ve ever known, if there is genuine attraction..would be highly aroused and very into this type of thing with a serious boyfriend. Key terms: Genuine attraction. Seems the guy dodged a bullet, you were cashing in on beta provisioning and he repulsed you from the beginning…I don’t buy the waiting till marriage bit, you mentioned giving yourself away to other previous men but wouldn’t for a man promising commitment and sharing his home with you? Poor guy. Fact is, he’s maintained his reputation and gotten married in a feminized world and a just as feminized church! That’s almost unheard of by today’s standards. If I’m wrong, and I’m sure you’ll say I am..then I apoloize and will just say this, that kind of thorn in your side is what men, good men have been dealt 100 fold. Nobody white knights the poor beta ex-husbands who just got divorce-raped, even the manosphere doesn’t really feel sorry for them. At least you have cheerleaders and 99% of the population will back you up instead of “well you probably had it coming” like most of these guys, it may seem tough on here but don’t lie, the vast majority of the people in your personal circle have consoled you or had your back…if not then I don’t believe a word of your “mistaken for 18, hot small body, sweetness, feminine, etc.” 30 year old hotties still have an army of white knight orbiters. You’re on here trying to figure shit out. Proof is in the pudding. You’re argumentative and will rationalize everything away with ease instead of really looking deeper, or accepting you totally fucked something up somewhere…that’s when you actually get heated on here. I HATE girlfriends like this much less the idea of being married to one.
It’s a damn 3 year lawsuit…no wonder you’ve been single since then, I would run too! Sad thing is…if you’re exactly as described and didn’t grossly embellish all the good things while understating the cons, I see no reason you shouldn’t be able to not only find a man but at the kind of beta who is quite accomplished in other areas to the point he wouldn’t just support your lawsuit but pay the lawyer fees and your debt himself! Hahahaha
Ugh, I’m sure Eva feels like she was really raped, but I don’t think any smart guy her age or older is going to agree. I had a classmate I dated when I was still a blue pill white knight–and she oddly asked me about a situation wondering if it was rape. (basically, a coworker made moves on her in a car, she sort of pushed him away and said no, he kept going) I was a white knight of course, and horrified.
To her credit, as messed up a girl as she was (talked the talk of being a devout christian, but had a number like 4 or 5 at age 22. Textbook alpha widow.) she later recognized that it was definitely not rape, just sex that she didn’t really want, but let happen, because she could have resisted, exited the car, etc.
To any ladies reading, if you’re talking to smart, sane guys, pretty much all rapes follow one or two situations.
1. Girl attacked by a guy, who uses physical force/threat of great harm and forces her to have sex. Quite often has physical wounds as a result. Knives, firearms, or similar weapons are sometimes involved.
2. Guy slips her a drug in a drink, and guy has sex with her while she is drugged.
Getting drunk and hooking up? Not rape. Having sex with a guy who lied and promised marriage, etc? Not rape. Your boyfriend having sex with you while you’re asleep in his bed? Weird, but not rape. You said stop during sex and he kept going? Not rape.
Getting in one of those situations, ladies, and talking about how you got raped, and your hope was destroyed by the “assault” how you can’t trust men, etc and so forth, will just make you look like a girl who seriously needs a lot of counseling for her issues, preferable with a sane Christian. Enormous red flag to any guy who’s had experience dealing with women…
I wasn’t going to comment about Eva’s post, but what changed my mind was confusion about seeing the same type of comments continuously come up in regards to what Eva claims was her rape. Before I elaborate, I want to make it clear that I understand that when a woman agrees to live with a man, there should be an understanding on her part that sex is going to be a part of that arrangement. However, does that really mean that her consent is not EVER necessary? Even (or especially) when she’s asleep and has no way to give that consent? Why would he do that while she was asleep? And if she wasn’t providing him with what he wanted, then why not just break up with her? Would the reaction to what Eva says was her rape have been much different if they were married?
Although I do think that WITHIN marriage, intimacy is “a wifely duty,” however, if the wife is pretty much always consistent on that front, but occasionally is just too exhausted, stressed, ill, or maybe even just not in the mood, does that really mean its OK for her husband (or boyfriend for the “religious” non practicing) to just wait untill she’s asleep and do what they please?
Although I don’t think this scenario would be as traumatic as one where the woman was assaulted, drugged, and physically forced upon, I can’t say that I think it’s not wrong either.
“Perspective”
Problem is, those type of claims are why rape isn’t looked at so seriously as it used to. It used to be a heinous crime. Like murder, kidnapping. Now, it can mean anything from “evil thug attacked a woman” to “woman got drunk, had sex, now is screaming rape.” Unfortunately, now it means more the latter. So people don’t care so much, and victims who actually were raped are lumped in with fools who just regret hooking up.
Here. This is an example of where that mindset leads. http://groupthink.jezebel.com/being-a-woman-in-public-1446742738 This woman–who is a frumpy, chubby lard, if you look up her picture, is talking about how she felt violated or threatened just being *looked at*, probably by a guy wondering if the fatso was having a panic attack, she was breathing so rapidly. You can already find articles where women are writing about how they are “sexual assault survivors” because they were hooking up with some guy, and he briefly started doing something they didn’t like, before stopping.
That’s where that goes. No one can deny that for her bf to have sex with her while she was asleep was weird or rude, but seriously? Let’s use our common sense powers again.
Situation 1: girl’s live in boyfriend, who she constantly shares a bed with, has sex with her while she’s asleep. She says it’s rape and was robbed of her hope, devastated, etc.
Situation 2: Woman is walking to her car in a parking deck. Thug jumps out, attacks her, drags her behind a car and rapes her.
Anyone who says both of those incidents should be called “rape” is insulting the women who actually suffer a traumatizing crime.
Also, “Perspective” considering how this was an intimate couple sharing the same bed, we have no idea if the guy had reason to think it was just fine. Not to be horrendously crude, but a lot of women who have the hots for the bedmate sometimes wake him up with a… well, certain something. Maybe she had done that before, and he figured then his actions were similar. Maybe one of them had joked about sleep sex, who knows. It’s impossible to know.
On a side note, there was an Australian case about that just recently. A divorced couple was in their own house for a night, in the middle of proceedings or something, and the woman was apparently feeling the urge and he woke up with her mouth somewhere private on him. He filed claim for sexual assault, because it was sex without consent. The courts threw out his claim, saying he had no case.
Or you can ignore what all the “facts” are and focus on yourself as an individual.
Pingback: Fun with Numbers, Graphs, and “PhDs” | Just Four Guys
sorry, no self respecting man desires a washed up 30+ year old career driven women. You made your choices in life. Deal with the consequences.
@Eva
I still think there’s hope for u, if your genes are as good as u laid them out to be. But here’s the caveat: Put this rape thing behind you. Drop the suit. Forget about the rape! Never talk about it again. If u are tempted to still engage in that in any form you have to ask yourself: “What is it going to cost me if I still think/behave that way?” The answer is clear: YOUR HAPPINESS (marriage, kids, etc).
From a males perspective, I’ll share a story or 2 that I discovered recently from a cousin. This young very attractive woman in her late teens got beat up by her boyfriend a few times, and I think it was not deserving, but she was also becoming very narcissistic…but she always said “she fell down”. Now forward 10 years later, she gets into a new relationship, has 1 kid with the live-in boyfriend, and she gets beat up again. At that time she was living with the boyfriend but still was actively dating another guy, and the boyfriend knew it and she knew he knew. BUT this time she goes straight to the police after the incident – no tears from what they told me. Now the kid has no father because he can only see him 1 hour per week supervised visit…and the father never struck the child once, but he’s deemed as a bad parent (he took care of the kid while she was out cheating on him).
For me, I remember 2 decades ago I was with this chick. After dating her for a year, I find out she was raped a few times – one of them was her cousin so I guess it must be true. Yes, damaged goods to say the least…but the sex was great. Anyway, towards the end of the relationship, we had a very emotional and tearful discussion..and she tells me I raped her. I couldn’t believe it. I bursted out in tears and told her how can she say something like that! Sure she retracted it immediately and apologized profusely but the damage was done.
These are 2 small examples of the red flags that some men here are referring to.
If u are as sweet and pretty as u say u are, and if u have deflated that narcissistic ego that most girls get when they get hit on a lot, then there is a small window of opportunity that u can live a happy life with a guy who u would have rejected in your prime.
Lot of people here have gone ‘red pill’ marine corp drill instructor on this unfortunate woman Eva, and although it must be said ‘not without cause’.
All the same, I expected this to be a christian blog. I do not care what church you belong to, or what ‘old testament’ fable you point to…. Christ made it absolutely clear his was the time of the new covenant and the first law was ‘Love and Forgiveness’.
I am ashamed for many of you on account of how you treated this woman, no matter what possible faults or discrepancies on her account you allude to.
You have failed her.
“JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
—Matthew 7:1-5 KJV
Pingback: Susan Walsh Endorses Graph Where Female SMV Falls 50% By Age 31 | Just Four Guys
etype,
you’re either a no-sack having white knight mangina screwup, or a woman eternally living in fantasyland. Let’s leave the Chruchianity where it belongs…..in the pugh-laiden hypocritical buildings of vain testament and collection plates.
If we’re looking to piss magic fairy dust or fart rose-blossomed unicorn farts there’s plenty of feminist “women are the greatest” sites out there to which she could pose her question. If you’re a woman coming to the manosphere to find out about your shortcomings then you should already know…..unless your head has been in the sand…..that you’re gonna be a “sacrificial lamb.” Go sell your holier than though self-righteous crazy somewhere else…….we’re all stocked up here!
Listen ‘patriotblogspot’ – you’re no man, no christian, you can’t spell, you’re stupid, you write like any other pretend ‘internet toughguy’, and the smart money says you’re a frustrated juvenile delinquent who doesn’t understand the reason you’re a sack-of-shit is because you do not or can not stop and ‘think’, calmly, rationally and honestly – like a man – and not the foul-mouth two-bit punk, that you are.
Thank you for your reply, even if it lowers the collective IQ of this blog 50 points. And thanks for bending over and taking my boot up your ass – like a loser.
Have a nice day.
PS.
One other point: Any ‘sphere’ where losers like you feel free to run their mouths is not a ‘manosphere’ – it’s a loser-sphere. As for ‘sacrificial lambs’ I understand you would need them – you’re not tough enough to take on anything else – so you jump on some fucked-up woman like the coward you are… you don’t have the balls, brains or heart to take on anything greater than a messed-up woman who opens up to you and asks for help. So you shit on her – because you are a useless sack-of-shit and that’s all you got.
Thank you and carry on with your losing.
Wow, etype, looks like you have it all — faith, hope, charity, virtue, brains, self-control, spirituality. You must be one of those “ten-talent” guys that the Master was referring to, destined for a big promotion any day now. It’s great to have your broad experience and deep wisdom here.
Gentlemen:
“etype” sounds like a woman, who is writing a post, based upon what she thinks a man would write like. I don’t find it convincing, with all its over-the-top rhetorical exaggerations and impotent threats.
My money says “etype” is one of eva’s girlfriends (if not “eva” herself, in a bizarre multiple personality disorder episode) white knaving.
Based upon the text, etype also seems to have a serious feces fetish going. Every other sentence is referent to excrement. One f—ed up individual, to be sure…
I hope she sticks around, as I find her clowning funny, but I hope none of you brothers are taking her too seriously.
Regards, Boxer
You know e-type, I used to actually care about stopping women making mistakes by correcting them and scolding them for their stupid actions. Now I just give them high praise. Much more fun watching human society crawl into the sewer. Eva is not judged by us, she is judged by her actions, which were piss poor and selfish. There really isn’t more to say I’m afraid.
And anyway, the judgment Christ is talking about is PUNISHMENT, i.e. death by stoning, not being judgmental. Every single person is judgmental, else I expect you, right here and now, to tell pretty women every single day to marry ugly men. DO IT! Or shut up!
That’s correct. If there is a god who created us, then he gave us our brains for a reason. He expects us to judge, and to use our very best judgment.
Men should pass over a relationship with a trashy single mom, a dramatic attention-whore, and a frivolous divorcée. This is exactly as it should be. Giving such a person your precious committment is casting pearls before the swine, as it says in the text of the bible.
Listen, I doubt any of you have more reason to hate women and this feministic fucked-up society than I have.
Your talk of ‘white-knighting’ et. is babble.
As for ‘judgement’ – wrong. Christ said ‘be not in judgement’. I said you were not Christians, but the truth is nor am I… none of us are – we can only try to be. The ability to acquire wisdom, to be intelligent, to be humane, is the ability to hold two ‘opposing views’ at the same time. One of these is Heaven, ‘the Kingdom of God’, the other is the world as it is. To hold both in harmony in one’s mind is the best we humans can hope for in this life.
If someone is lying to you, for sake of fucking you over – cut them off, kick them out, destroy their plans in whatever manner required – it is the right thing to do. To not surrender to evil is worth more than life. But if someone asks for help – help them without asking for anything in return. Most of all for ‘moral superiority’, because you will gain nothing, but you will lose whatever morals you have.
As for ‘eva’, you would have lost nothing showing her compassion, honesty and good faith, while at the same time being aware of the various snares women set. But some of you used her plight to dance on her neck. She is not perfect, that is why she asking for your advice – but she is not preternaturally evil either – she is human, just like you. You haven’t failed her as much as you failed yourself. If you expect the worst from people, male or female, that is all you are going to get. Expect the worst, but hope for the best, and you will be surprised now and again, and the ‘best’ makes all the shit we have to pass through worth it.
Really etype? That’s the best you’ve got? Your cut-down didn’t even make me laugh…..and that’s a sad representation of how pathetic you are at bringing it! If anyone is lowering the collective IQ of this blog it is you by defending someone as worthless as Eva. Are you a lesbian? Is she your Gloria Steinem for the week? As far as for a boot up the ass, there’s other women on here with much more worth that kick a lot harder than your pathetic ass ever could. Why don’t you run along over to Happy Halo where you’ll be a lot more useful. Nothing you say here has any value.
Question, y’all.
If you had a dime for every women who came shrieking in here screaming “NOT WHAT I EXPECT FROM CHRISTIANS IFHJEFUIWNHFIDQWIEQWEB”, would you listen when the world came to your door begging you to release the global supply of copper?
Wow, I typed in “unmarried over 30” and came up with this page. I was just looking for some tips and found all of you haters! There are a lot of people who are REALLY down on women in here.
I’m 31, never married, stable white collar job, rent but could own if I wanted. I think it’s harder to date, PERIOD, when you’re over 30, male or female. In my 20s it seemed to come so easy. It is so much harder now. 1) Social networks have dried up. Parties are more likely to be with your friends’ tots and end early. 2) Not as many people around in dateable age range, and again, most are married/partnered. 3) People have all kinds of hangups, restrictions, responsibilities.
I do think it is harder for women, but my experience dating lately has been less than stellar, indicating we men have issues over 30 as well They fall into 3 or 4 categories.
Single moms – have to admit, a turn-off, could possibly tolerate, but kid is all they talk about
The desperate – too clingy or too crazy, can see why they still aren’t married (or are divorced)
The younger ones – vapid and shallow, flakes, can’t be counted on, trying to “find themselves,” annoying friends, vocabulary seems to devolve the younger they are
The careerists – no time to do much, also don’t seem to care or at least try very hard to seem like they don’t care, may also be single moms at same time, compounding scheduling issues.
I’ve come to the following conclusion: THE BEST ONES ARE ALREADY TAKEN!
So we men have to also adjust our sights, so to speak. We are not all perfect catches after 30 either. I’m more set in my ways, more dull to do job routine. I’ve still got my hair, but I’m not in quite as good shape as I was at 24-28.
My plan is if I don’t find someone after 2 more years, I’ll settle on the best “single mom” available.
Well usually women in their thirties that were never married before are Very High Maintenance to begin with, and won’t settle for Less.
Women over 30 (particularly over 35) need a dowry. A dowry could be…
…a house/condo (or two) that is/are paid for (or at least, one with substantial equity)
…a substantial retirement account
…a very lucrative career or at the very least
…a very lucrative education that translates into a very high paying career
What she does not need is….
….credit card debt
…bankruptcies
…an expensive car loan/lease
…a terrible credit history
…illegitimate children
Basically over 30, she has bring something to the table (something that would be expected on the man.) If she doesn’t have these things, maybe she is not marriagible?
@innocentbystanderboston
I agree that a woman over 30 having one (or even most) of the following that you’ve mentioned such as:
…”a house/condo (or two) that is/are paid for (or at least, one with substantial equity)
…a substantial retirement account
…a very lucrative career or at the very least
…a very lucrative education that translates into a very high paying career”
IS a definitive asset. I’ve never really been convinced by the argument of many in the Manosphere that a woman not having all (or even just some) of these things you’ve mentioned does not affect her marriageability. I know a lot of women (including under 30’s) who’ve been snubbed by men who initially seemed attracted to them only to later withdraw interest and contact when she told them she was lacking some (or even just one) of the following. A woman’s career, income, and education DOES indeed matter to a lot of men. Just like a man’s appearance matters to a lot women.
Copious amounts of evidence support the opposite conclusion, Perspective. Remember: what people say and what they do often differs.
I’ll start you off with this:
Shackelford, Todd K., David P. Schmitt, and David M. Buss. “Universal dimensions of human mate preferences.” Personality and Individual Differences 39.2 (2005): 447-458.
Buss, David M. “Do women have evolved mate preferences for men with resources?: A reply to Smuts.” Ethology and Sociobiology 12.5 (1991): 401-408.
Wiederman, Michael W. “Evolved gender differences in mate preferences: Evidence from personal advertisements.” Ethology and Sociobiology 14.5 (1993): 331-351.
—
Slightly related (the government as “lead figure”), for those who asked in a previous thread:
Kasser, Tim, and Yadika S. Sharma. “Reproductive freedom, educational equality, and females’ preference for resource-acquisition characteristics in mates.” Psychological Science 10.4 (1999): 374-377.
Don’t confuse MMV with SMV.
Don’t confuse MMV with SMV.
I shan’t confuse the two. That said, Perspective mentioned marriageability (and the above-mentioned studies focus on that, as well). As for SMV, women do shift their focus more towards physical appearance (e.g. facial masculinity, waist-to-shoulder ratio, muscle development) in a mate, while men don’t change all that much (on average, since men may go with a women not as attractive, or more attractive, or the same. E.g. Townsend, John Marshall, and Timothy Wasserman. “Sexual attractiveness: Sex differences in assessment and criteria.” Evolution and Human Behavior 19.3 (1998): 171-191.). Lots more to say on the subject, of course.
When a marriage ends, whatever assets she brings into the marriage is her’ s, whatever assets you bring are her’s and whatever assets you create together might be half yours.
The dowry idea is as dumb as getting married
In an age where outside of the very rich (or very poor) and where one income has become insufficient on which to tolerably live (if married with children) a woman’s earnings and lack of indebtedness are factors in addition to such traditional factors as chastity and legitimacy, and that a man should weigh when deciding whether the woman is marriageable.
The danger for the woman is that with those things IBB mentioned she will be prey to young men seeking an easier life. I was having my shoes shined yesterday; before me, a youngish good-looking man who I could not determine whether he was a poser or a villain was having his very expensive shoes shined. The Shiner commented on the quality of the shoes, and the man responded by saying that the shoes were the gift of a very kind person. So they might be, but the woman sitting beside him and who gifted them as I could then tell from her happy smile, was clearly somewhat older than he; he could clearly have been with a younger woman, but he might not have had the fine shoes and other expensive looking clothing. In life, a balance is needed and I hope that the balance that Aaron achieves is not that of the single mother he says he might settle for in two years.
Ton,
Not even a little bit true. If she has a house before she gets married and he doesn’t and they get married in a community property state, she better have signed that pre-nup to protect it because he’s getting half. Thats the law. And even in some not-so-community property states, if he had a job at all during their marriage, he can claim part of the equity of that house. I’ve seen this.
That is why I tell fathers and mothers of adult children who are getting married, that if they want to be in the lives of their grandchilden and they don’t want to enrich the loser spouse their children marry (against the will of their parent’s wishes) for fear that the loser spouse just wants to be a leech of of their kids, then buy the kids a house, don’t give it to them, let them live in it (rent free) and NEVER give it or sell it to them. Irrevokable trust! The asset remains in the parent’s name. So when dingleberry loser divorces their kids (frivoulously) he or she does not get one penny from the house.
Opus,
We don’t have to be talking about someone who has a whole lot to lose here. This doesn’t have to be a Richard Gere/Julie Christie situation ala American Gigalo. We could be talking about a woman who has just a little bit more. Remember the question on this post: what can a woman in her 30s do to give herself a leg-up in the marriage market? Some people on this blog would say she has no hope at all, and I disagree with that. I think that if she is in her early to late 30s and she wants to be married, its a good idea to save up some of her earnings and get a small home (somewhere.) That requires a massive amount of fiscal discipline and deferment of instant gratification on her part (something that women generally do NOT have/do because there aren’t moral agents) but it shows a man who is also marriage minded that she is in the right mindset for marriage. She gets it. There are a whole bunch of things he does NOT have to do (to drag her along kicking and screaming towards fiscal responsibility) because she is already there in her mind.
For middle-class men, high physical attractiveness can render women desirable for dating, sexual relationships, and even marriage regardless of their occupation, income, and education — provided that they do not exhibit the obvious trappings of a lower-class status and lifestyle. In comparison, women appear unwilling to date, marry, or have sexual relations with low-income, uneducated males regardless of the men’s physiognomies and physiques.
Women with higher SES have higher socioeconomic standards for their male partners (Townsend 1989, 1998; Wiederman and Allgeier 1992). Higher-status women may shift their economic standards because they judge their own mate value to be higher — even though their income and occupational prestige are relatively unimportant to men. Alternatively, they may simply believe that men with inferior status and earning power offer few advantages and therefore do not merit their (the women’s) investment. These explanations are not mutually exclusive (Townsend 1998).
Townsend, John Marshall, and Timothy Wasserman. “Sexual attractiveness: Sex differences in assessment and criteria.” Evolution and Human Behavior 19.3 (1998): 171 -191.
“Remember: what people say and what they do often differs”
I haven’t really found this to be true based on my observations. In most cases, when I’ve heard a guy say he’s looking for an educated and ambitious woman (that he’s also physically attracted to of course) then that’s exactly what he’s looking for.
There’s many men who care a lot about pedigree/lineage as well. For example, even if the girl who grew up in a trailer park, goes on to earn good grades, attends and graduates college, gets a good job and income, and is generally doing well for herself, that still isn’t good enough for some men to consider her for marriage. Such men would expect that she had been born into that mileau; as opposed to earning her way into it. I think this can be particularly true of men who grew up in the burbs (and/or the upper class) and for the most part came from privileged backgrounds. Having witnessed situations like this in real life, I’d say classicism in the dating world (and society in general) is unfortunately still alive and well.
I haven’t really found this to be true based on my observations.
I generally lean towards trusting studies conducted over 30 years, six continents, 200+ countries, and 600,000 people before I trust the observations of someone on the Internet. I’m sure you’ll understand why.
Beyond that, the usual fallacies of hasty generalization, etc.
@MD
“I generally lean towards trusting studies conducted over 30 years, six continents, 200+ countries, and 600,000 people before I trust the observations of someone on the Internet. I’m sure you’ll understand why”
I’m sure it would seem that these studies are more reliable, “than someone on the internet” (which coincidentally includes anyone and everyone who posts online forums:) but I really don’t really think it’s making a “hasty generalization” to come to your conclusions based on your life and experiences.
which coincidentally includes anyone and everyone who posts online forums
Plenty of technical errors in your reply, that I need not point out. Anyhow, the benefits of research seem to escape you, given your reply. And yes, it is a “hasty generalization” when you generalize (e.g. draw conclusions beyond scope) from a small sample (e.g. the classic N=1).
@MD
“Plenty of technical errors in your reply, that I need not point out. Anyhow, the benefits of research seem to escape you, given your reply.”
Although the thread isn’t about the apparent “technical errors” in my post, it’s fine if you point them out. I don’t mind criticism so long as there’s some validity behind it. And I do in fact see the benefits of research, I just don’t base my life on it.
“And yes, it is a “hasty generalization when you generalize (e.g. draw conclusions beyond scope) from a small sample (e.g. the classic N=1).”
What do you mean by the “classic N=1”?
Perspective, you seem to speak with some less than earnest men ha ha. While there are women whose best feature is there personality, and it sells the rest of them… or looks, and it makes their personality tolerable, that’s never been the case with ‘educated and ambitious’, it never sells the rest of the package. Many women who imagine themselves educated, and imagine that it’s there best feature, aren’t all that intellectually stimulating. And ‘ambitious’? Sounds like a short trip to divorce court as she gets ambitious for half of your income.
@TCMT
“that’s never been the case with ‘educated and ambitious’, it never sells the rest of the package.”
And I understand that. I didn’t say it was a selling point, What I said was that there are some men who expect these traits (educated and ambitious) in a woman they’re considering for marriage and would not proceed with courtship (in spite of being physically attracted to her) if they discover that she lacks these characteristics.
That was me.
If all I wanted was the physically attractive one, I would have grabbed the one whose daddy was willing to pay me to take her off his hands. She was a 9. And we had absolutely nothing to talk about, nothing.
@ibb
“That was me.
If all I wanted was the physically attractive one, I would have grabbed the one whose daddy was willing to pay me to take her off his hands. She was a 9. And we had absolutely nothing to talk about, nothing.”
And that’s exactly the kind of thing I was referring to. There are indeed men who want and expect to be able to have a conversation with a woman they’re considering for marriage (wouldn’t it be pretty boring if they couldn’t?) Her ability to do so usually correlates with her education and intelligence to some extent.
@IBB
I am glad you mentioned Julie Christie for in my view any blog-post that has failed to draw attention to Miss Christie is frankly wasted, however, much as you may wish it, she did not play opposite Richard Gere in American Gigolo. I felt it important to correct this. Perhaps you were thinking of Darling where she plays the ultimate in hypergamous women – or Dr Zhivago, where she plays yet another slut or Far from the Madding Crowd, which I have not seen – another slut – you get the picture. Can’t imagine therefore why they haven’t given her a Knighthood or sent her to The House of Lords, which is usually what happens to bad-tempered aging actresses who have lost their looks (Rigg, Mirren, Dench – though not Redgrave – I have seen them all on stage, including Miss Rigg completely naked – essential for the part apparently – but not I regret to say Christie – perhaps she is too posh for that).
I am not (as with yourself) one of those who thinks that women hit some kind of wall at thirty-five, and thereafter become unmarriaaible, quite the contrary in fact, for I really do not see that any woman has any difficulty in finding a man if she puts her mind to it – most however despite the crocodile-tears and handbags simply do not want to, and at best prefer to seek sympathy for their freely chosen single-dom where they can blame men for only being after one thing whilst indulging as suits them. My theory is that the sluttier they are the more they complain about the state of morality in the country. A sure and fast rule that never fails.
There is, round here, a youngish woman who used to come out drinking on Sunday nights (band night). Not fat, but there was something seriously wrong with her and out of a scale of ten no one could say she was more than a 1. One could only feel sorry, for clearly she wanted a boyfriend but everyone avoided her – yet, lo and behold, that is exactly what she has achieved – he is not very prepossessing but he is her age and not fat and you can see them walking together hand-in-hand. So there really is someone for everyone if they want it are prepared to make an effort and not reject on the basis that the guy has failed to reach a suitable score on her 365 bullet-point checklist.
@Perspective
which coincidentally includes anyone and everyone who posts online forums:)
You’ve basically taken my point, then seemingly pretended that it opposed my point. Beyond that, the point of research is to go beyond the subjective (and the so-called “mind projection fallacy”), to obtain an objective understanding. That is a benefit of research, and one, contrary to your claim, that you don’t seem to understand. “N=1” is a joke – it means a sample size of one, which is basically the person stating the claim.
If you are willing to sign a pre-nuptual agreement, You are 50% on your way. Men are well aware that marriage could be a serious set-back if things don’t work out. The reality in today’s world is that men lose in the divorce ring. Now I know this advice is a sideline to your concern, but it is a factor that is real to men….just ask them. I would never marry a woman without a pre-nuptual agreement….it’s suicide.
@Captain No Marriage – I would love to get married, however I am not one of those ‘marriage is not my top priority’ women. Rather, love is one of my top ‘what I wish to have in life’ things (I think there is a bit of a difference). I think love is the most beautiful thing anyone can ever have. I believe in family and all that, but I realise/acknowledge not everyone is lucky to have this stuff in a lifetime. I happen to be one of those people (I am unknown and non-existent to men, as my name tells you). I do not want to do is to spend the rest of life alone, but I might have to because quiet women were not meant to be loved or noticed. That is my ‘crime’ and that is why I am single. If I do meet that man who wants to marry me for the right reasons (Because he LOVES ME and I love him, not because friends are getting married), then I will welcome that with open arms. Family is important to me and I hope to start one if I meet the right person (key word, right, not perfect). I think marriage is a huge commitment that needs to be wanted by both parties that get into it. I cannot coerce a man into dating me, let alone marriage. I stumbled on this page when seeking relationship advice, not particularly marriage. What I wanted to point out was not all of us 30s women are as choosy and ‘seeking the alpha male’ as most of the comments here implied. I just wanted to put it out there that there is a group of women called the ‘unnoticed/ignored/unloud/kind of introvert women that are single because they cannot measure up with the drama queens that men tend to love. Men do love loud women. I say that because I see it almost daily everywhere I go. Nice girls are not their cup of tea.
I meant to say I am not one of those ‘marriage is my top priority’ women. At the same time I am not cynical about it either. It is a great thing. It should not be forced/coerced at all (based on age or whatever). Love should be the number one motivation to get married. For me, it is. But men don’t want quiet women so I guess I don’t fit in much.
Men do love loud women.
As a general rule, I don’t think this is true. I know it’s not true for me. The introverted women usually have the qualities I’m looking for, as well.
@Unknown
“Men do love loud women.”
This may be the case with some men, however, I think it’s more of a case of men loving “expressive” women (which sometimes goes hand in hand with being loud.) I think it’s safe to say that men (at least most) like to know how a women they’re investing time with really feels about them. That she likes them, is attracted, enjoys his company, etc. To an extent, these things can be demonstrated by a pleasant demeanor, smiling, looking and acting feminine, but my guess is a woman who is actually able to vocalize her appreciation and love is the one who often most clearly and perhaps effectively gets those feelings across.
@Unknown
You only think men like loud, boisterous, drama-laden women because that is what you see other women around you doing and talking about. Men prefer nice girls, but nice girls are nary to be found.
I prefer a pleasant, quiet, drama-avoiding woman.
I would, however, advise you to consider that love is not a good basis for a marriage. Love is a feeling that is fleeting. Far too many marriages based on mutual love fall apart when the love just doesn’t feel the same one day.
They Call Me Tom says:
July 8, 2013 at 10:06 pm
”The problem with eugenics, is you are asking people who aren’t the product of perfect eugenics to set the standards for perfect eugenics… it makes eugenics imperfect. And imperfect eugenics is pointless, isn’t it?
It’s ethically problematic as well… but throw that out. Pragmatically eugenics doesn’t work either, no more than an all-powerful government or an all-powerful dictator.”
While I agree to a point with what you say, however as an Atheist & lover of all things science I’m still an avid supporter of eugenics.
~~~Agree. To. Disagree.
@ Aaron, do you mind me asking how old you are? I just want to know so as to ‘weigh’ your advice, not to disagree with you or anything. I know that love is not the only thing, just one of the strongest, I think? Also, what in your opinion would there be to consider the most, then? I always think when everything else is gone, it’s the only thing left (?). Money, careers, good health, good looks, fame etc., all fade. And they do so in no specific order. Love, in my opinion, includes friendship, companionship, being able to understand and help each other, arguing, making up [and making love; very important hehe!:], agreeing to deal with ‘things will not be perfect, but we will be reasonable and try’ etc). Am I really this naive at 31?
MarcusD – But why are the rather quiet women single and unknown?? All the loud women I know change partners like clothes.
Perspective – I think I am expressive. I show emotion (laugh, love, cry, talk when necessary etc). If a stranger (man or woman) talks to me, I respond. I don’t do the whole ‘try and figure me out’ silence demeanor or the ‘making judgements’ silence thing). With people I know (family, friends etc), I actually don’t consider myself quiet. What I am not is the woman who gets invited to a party and walks around every corner greeting everyone and asking them “are you married? how many kids do you have? how is your relationship? Is so and so good in bed? How is the mortgage taking you” (nothing wrong with these extrovert habits per se, but that’s just not me). I am the woman who will say things like “That a nice dress/shirt” etc (and I will mean it), and usually the other person talks more than I do after I say that, which kind of helps. If I don’t say something along those lines, I simply introduce myself. I admit starting the conversation isn’t always easy (with men as well as women) but I have done it once or twice. This, I guess is what is not “expressive” enough. I admit too, that I do not go to gatherings alone unless I know at least one person there. The only place I go to alone is shopping. And maybe church (the few times I go. I am not going to lie that I go to church every Sunday. Last time I was there was on New Years’ Day to welcome 2014:).
Im so scared of losing my youth and not finding the right guy. Im 30… :(. I hope this feeling, too, shall pass.
@ Danika,
I just noticed your post. Placing the comment on this older thread will not be noticeable to most others. Perhaps post on the most recent thread so others can comment back to you.
There might not be a “right guy”, or a Mr. Perfect as some elude to.
I’d like to extend a huge “thank you” to the author of this blog. I am a single woman in my late thirties, and loved your honest advice and perspective. I find that websites focusing on issues that affect singles are either “doom and gloom” oriented or “rah rah rah, it’s great to be single”. Your blog is the best thing I’ve read in a LONG time! Keep up the writing. You are obviously talented, intelligent, and able to consider things from all angles.
OK, I am new to this blog and don’t understand what’s going on. (Dalrock, I left you a comment elsewhere and you replied…now I can’t find it…this blog has been going on a while with plenty of popularity, apparently!)
Dalrock always has good points, even if they are too cynical and dry for me to quote safely in public. But some of the comments are hateful. Translating everything to assume someone would still sleep with her ex anytime? And telling someone who’s 130 pounds that she is overweight?? Where is that overweight?
I may get a string of comments indicating you don’t believe me, but I’m not husband-hunting; I’m married with a baby and I am concerned with the state of marriage (more like singleness) in the church today, particularly how people either romanticize it and think that their romance was the only divinely-inspired one, or they become hardened and harsh, driving off marriage prospects, or they SPUR the hardening of others by quoting useless stuff about being “patient” when, as has been noted, time is not on the women’s side. I find it foolish to pretend that biological clocks don’t exist, that 25 is no better than 35 and 35 no better than 45, when God has clearly allowed human bodies to work a certain way.
So I am interested in this blog. But wow, some of the comments seem full of disgust for women who aren’t a “10” on whatever scale. I know plenty of attractive women, and not many under 130 pounds (and some are very tall).
Also, the single women in their 30s whom I know were not out sleeping around when younger (to the very best of my knowledge). However, there was a place where a commenter, I think, said that if a woman really decides to get married, she’ll have a proposal within a year. That was true for me.
I do think that there are Christian women who expect men to show up to court them out of the blue, no flirting to signal the men (that would be wrong), no online networking (because that’s not trusting the Lord), and no enlisting any matchmaker (wrong era, plus the first two reasons). It’s not so much that they are looking for a 6/6 as that they expect to ONLY find a Christian guy a CERTAIN WAY, and meanwhile the months and years tick by…
there’s so many comments that i’m not sure if any woman will get to mine but i feel that what i have to say is important to understand for women no matter what age:
recognize, accept and empathize that men have a been given a rotten deal. forget the whole smv mmv debate. a man marrying is essentially putting his future at the mercy of the whims of a woman, and any self respecting man with half a functioning testicle will recognize that the risk:benefit ratio of marriage is very skewed against them. even worse still is that particularly prudent and logical men will be much against a high stakes gamble, no matter how much you may sweeten the deal. he has realized that what he has in life is enough, that he doesn’t need to risk everything to maybe have things get a little better(commited sex and companionship and all that lovey dovey stuff beta guys want) if the woman in question is great(notice how utterly dull such prudence must seem). child support isn’t as devestating as a divorce and all the bs that comes with it but it is similarly harmful to the man, so also aknowledge the risk he is taking by having a child with you, as well as the potential emotional damage that can be caused to him to see his child’s life ruined by a reckless mother. even if you know in your heart that you’re the perfect loyal marriagable woman, you have literally nothing to convince him so, words mean nothing, and actions have yet to be known, actions that will span a good 20+ years to be considered valid proof.
what can you do to REALLY stand out from the other women? aknowledge to them that you understand that a woman is asking far too much of a man by asking him to play russian roulette with his future. i’ve heard of this but don’t know if it’s true, but i’ve heard that it’s possible to have a wedding ceramony without having the legal binding following. basically if you ABSOLUTELY MUST be married, have the whole ring and chapel thing, then you have to simply tell him that you don’t ask or expect him to sign on the dotted line(aka his balls aren’t being put under a guillotine with a fickle rope holding it up). what you want is to build a healthy family in an unhealthy society, not the institution of marriage. ask for what you actually need to build a family; a strong, stable and commited man to be the head of the household, that’s it. being a strong family man does not mean having the “courage” to sign a contract where there are 0 advantages and nothing but severe risks. by revealing to a man that you have also taken the red pill, as making known that you’re willing to play by a new set of rules that you can both can work with, you present yourself as a viable option. basically he’ll be your husband minus having to worry about the lifetime alimony and being bankrupt in divorce court.
anyway that’s just my two cents. i’m still young and don’t know all the legaleze of family laws and i hear just living together can be enough to condemn a man. either way, men have been apologising for things they didn’t do for the past 50+ years, they got shafted for it of course so many are done with the bs. as a woman, it’s time to do your share of apologising on behalf of your gender, and i have a feeling that it will have a good result, if you’ve been paying any attention to dalrock on male/female dynamics then you’ll understand why i say that. it wasn’t fair for either gender, but as always, women hold the cards, so you have the opportunity to mend the bridges the collective gender has burned, if not only until you find a decent man who’ll be there to stay.
This linked essay would go as well for men seeking a wife, but I suspect women (with their often-psychotic levels of hypergamy) would benefit from it, so it’s posted here:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2014/05/15/312537965/how-to-marry-the-right-girl-a-mathematical-solution?ft=1&f=1001
It’s a mathematical solution to how to pick a spouse. Specifically, it’s how an astronomer and mathematician successfully picked a wife (worked out well for him).
Apt cartoon for almost any woman wondering why her long-time BF won’t propose:
Good cartoon to explain how male interest will decline post-wall for the female crowd when they pass 29:
White women are the only ones who look old at 30.
Pardon my skipping forward most of a 1000+ posts. I was getting more and more horrified, as usual on such threads, as my general thoughts turned from “I don’t quite agree with his take on that” to “my God, traditional or not, how does that idea regarding women jibe with any concept of Christian neighborly love!?!” As what Avery Cardinal Dulles dubbed one of the ‘Neo-Conservative Catholics,’ I have a different take as a single man in my thirties.
What struck me as the fascinating part of the original argument was the notion that “[t]he other group of men I would consider are men…men who would traditionally have been marriageable in their 20s but essentially dropped out of the dating/marriage market due to lack of interest from women their own age…[t]here have to be quite a few unclaimed eligible bachelors out there whom the right woman could coax back into the game.” As arguably one of those at 34, buried in his books over the past decade after early failures at gaining the attention of both Catholic women (coming from secular schools and university, to cultural confusion) and secular women (approaching via chaste morality and virginity, to hilarious results), I’m still likely less successful than most of the women who I would be considering marrying (due to a mix of choice of field/career, time spent in ministries & volunteer work in lieu of overtime, and being the caretaker of my elderly father), but that’s a sad reality of many men in today’s world who have done everything right but are in a bad position. It speaks rather non-traditional of me that I’m among more than a few men who, after more than a decade of living alone and taking care of one’s own place (yes, men can vacuum and do dishes), would be perfectly willing to be the stay-at-home parent for a growing Catholic family at least part/much of the time if his former-longterm-single wife had a career in which she had invested a long time, was far more lucrative, and which she did not yet want to completely give up (forgive me if I feel that women as well as men can have both a vocation as a spouse/parent as well as a telos as a productive member of society beyond the walls of the home — it merely means that the couple needs to work together that more closely to see the both the husband’s and wife’s small-v vocations alike supported).
bodyidealsarestupid says:
July 21, 2014 at 5:15 pm
“White women are the only ones who look old at 30.”
Perhaps (and the even higher rates of obesity among Hispanic and black women in America compared to the high rates among the white women there makes that debatable), but it’s irrelevant. Most white men vastly prefer to have children with white women, to the point that if that’s not an option, they won’t have children at all. (I consider this laudable, a manifestation of the strong instinct against cuckoldry, which a white raising a nonwhite child arguably is, even if the NWC is genetically related.)
Episteme says:
August 8, 2014 at 6:18 pm
“It speaks rather non-traditional of me that I’m among more than a few men who, after more than a decade of living alone and taking care of one’s own place (yes, men can vacuum and do dishes), would be perfectly willing to be the stay-at-home parent for a growing Catholic family at least part/much of the time if his former-longterm-single wife had a career in which she had invested a long time, was far more lucrative, and which she did not yet want to completely give up (forgive me if I feel that women as well as men can have both a vocation as a spouse/parent as well as a telos as a productive member of society beyond the walls of the home — it merely means that the couple needs to work together that more closely to see the both the husband’s and wife’s small-v vocations alike supported).”
This has repeatedly been described as routinely qualifying as nothing so much a disaster in the making. The wife will feel far higher status than her husband, along with likely having easy access to higher-status males through her work. The likely results will be one or more of largely or completely shutting down the sexual relationship with the husband, her having one or more affairs (possibly openly), cuckolding him, and divorcing him without traditional (or, real) grounds. The last typically has him lose most or all custody of the children, losing his assets, and being assessed ongoing child support (!) based upon the career he no longer has, having giving it up for being a SAHD. The CS will thus likely range between terribly onerous to absolutely unpayable, with the effects that he’ll be a periodically-jailed fugitive who never again sees (at least while minors) his children, who in the meantime are taught to despise and hate him and his values. Not much of a life plan IMO.
@butter flower- You can’t understand how a man can’t live alone without a female? And do you seriously believe single men live like hermits? Good lord do you people live in the middle ages or have the middle age mentality or what! I don’t’ understand the stupid way women think! Nobody is a hermit for goodness sake. Oh give me a freaking break! I’m 48 years old and still singe and loving it! I’m not bitter nor lonely. I have lots of friends- stay active physically and i’m deeply involved in my church and many other activities. You must be a female only females seem to wilt like flowers when they aren’t with a man (that is dating or married)- my self worth is not determined by the people I’m with or women I date. Being single doesn’t make you a looser either. Being straddled to someone you don’t love would be a fate worse than death for me! If I had the attitude of many people l know I would have married 20 years ago to the first woman who was interested in me and would be divorced and miserable by now! At this stage in my life sex really isn’t an issue since i’m not 20. I am extremely independent person- rather introspective- kind of a loner but not alone. Introverts like myself enjoy our own company. Considering how some people i meet get on my everlasting nerve I prefer my own company. People drain me emotionally- I gain strength from being alone- listing to music- writings- drawing- etc. When i want to be with people I do so and I love to talk as well about many subjects. Seems to many of my friends have gone down the divorce court route- getting married and dealing with a bunch of squalling kids is the last thing I would ever want to deal with! Geez!!!!! I date occasionally and I let the ladies know that I am in now way getting married to anyone period! I am only looking for Platonic relationships. I realize I am different and there are always exceptions to the rule. So now you have met an exception to the rule- LOL I feel sorry for people who think a relationship is going to make them happy or fulfill them! I and my relationship with the Lord is what fulfills me- Yes I like to have people in my life- life would be boring and lonely without other people in it- but seriously I don’t need a woman in my way 24/7. I love having my big King size bed all to myself. I really get peeved when i read comments about single men are selfish- that is a bunch of b.s.! I give of my free time to others- church and other organizations as well as my money. How many women give their free time to organizations let alone there precious money to different religious organizations? The bigotry and hatred of single men is beyond me- I hold such people in contempt and not worthy of my time.
While, as a woman who has reached 30, and also wants to get married I do appreciate the advice to be realistic and humble in your expectations to find a good man that can tolerate you.
However, I dont appreciate the snide arrogant comments from nice guys (who actually seem like embittered assholes) claiming “revenge’ on women who did not want to screw them in their twenties. Contrary to popular thought, women are not all spoiled. We are not all dumb, rich floozies. We were actually not all hot in our twenties (I myself am actually, oddly enough, getting more attention now).
And we were not all unrealistic about looks n our twenties (I dated nice guys in my twenties, that were not that great looking or anything of the sort, the relationships just happened to deteriorate due to general DIFFERENT life goals and physical distance (moving to another country).
Contrary to popular thought, women are not all spoiled. We are not all dumb, rich floozies.
In Western society? Maybe not all, but certainly enough to make it seem like all.
I am a 32 y/o widow with a 4 y/o child. I had a husband that I deeply loved. He was highly intellectually gifted and emotionally sensitive, living by the values and ideals that we shared (he f.e. worked for humanitarian aid and human rights), empathic, creative, humorous, attractive (8-9). He was gentle, shy, introvert, not so masculine or dominant… but that fits me. I lost him 2 months after our child was born.
Dating was not on my mind for some years. For the last months I have tried dating again though and would really like some advice. Dating confuses and saddens me. Some help would be nice.. thanks!!
This whole MMV thing is hard. Men do tell me they find me attractive (average photo score 9 out of 10 on dating site), young looking, feminine, caring, fun, smart. Sometimes also much younger guys. But there are also many men who don’t want to date a single mother, someone with emotional bagage. I find it difficult to decide which men I have a chance with.
In my 20s many attractive (physically, emotionally and intellectually) male friends were single and available. Now all the good ones seem to be married. I have looked around at friends, acquaintances, internet profiles, did some dating.. also with guys I would not normally go out with. Many men have some major issue… drug addiction, attachment problem, psychiatric disorder, promiscuous lifestyle. Others have difficulty in the social and emotional field. Or a very superficial life style (partying, drinking, superficial friendships, gadgets, working only for the money). It’s scary!
I know well what I want. I really don’t care about money, height, weight, status, shyness, not-so-smooth-flirting skills, age, late or ex wife and children. I do care a lot about personality, intellect and shared values and ideals, a love for God, people, nature and life… and a deep love between us. Physical attraction helps, but is less important in the end… I could marry a less attractive guy (5-6).
There are some men who are interested…and they are mostly kind and good enough men… but I think I can’t love them in the way a wife should love her husband. Some examples… please tell me what to do….
– Widower-friend, 44 y/o, young child, unattractive (5), said he would like to marry me. We would superficially make a good couple. We are friends, there is trust, he is stable, a good provider, we have good team work, similar background, children the same age. But he has mild brain damage and misses deeper emotions and bonds.. he does not feel, understand or express them well. This makes me feel lonely and unconnected. I have taken some distance now, I don’t want to hurt him.
– Ex, 31 y/o, childless, moderately attractive (7). Only man I had a LTR with before my husband. Fun, attractive, long conversations, childloving, emotionally and socially normal enough, smart enough, good provider. Just single again after a LTR. I feel okay around him, am not deeply in love, miss some emotional and intellectual depth, and his life style is superficial (gadgets, marketing job, partying, drinking, superficial friends), we had some bad conflicts in the past. He expressed serious interest in dating, marrying, having children with me.
– Internet-dating-guy, 26 y/o, moderately attractive (6-7). Somewhat less intellectual and educated, somewhat shy with women, somewhat less socially engaged and mature, somewhat less humorous… but kind and warm and genuine and normal. We can talk for hours on the phone and I feel a real connection, he says he does too. I am scared that a man this young would never get really serious with a 32 y/o single mom though….and he is not as serious as older guys.
– Smart guy, 40 y/o, reasonably attractive (7-8). Good job, extremely smart, serious, intellectually satisfying friendship, broadly interested, many shared values. Emotionally and socially awkward…. which makes connecting difficult. He does not ask questions, show initiative, play, conversations stagnate, he is not good with children, with emotions.
– Divorced guy, 37 y/o, unattractive (5). Very smart, creative, great laughs and conversation, our children know and like each other, we have many shared values, some conflicting ones.I found out he makes satanic music!
Sorry for the long story. I just wanted to share honestly my thoughts and feelings…. and also some examples to show what i”m doing… because i’m clueless how to proceed. I realize I am probably expecting too much… I search for a deep and meaningful emotional and intellectual connection, real love, shared values. It’s difficult to settle for being a moderately good team running a family….although that’s probably what most marriages are??
Should I give up? Settle more? Wait? Concentrate on my own life with my child, find a good cause to work on, and forget about a husband?? I am very family oriented though….not a career woman. Go for one of the men now available to me.. ? Which?
Oh and a tall, dark, handsome (9-10), dominant, humorous alpha army officer. But I think I’ll pass for that.
I think a lot of women look for the wrong things when meeting guys. Most look for “chemistry” or “butterflies”. These subjective/irrational things might work when you’re young and dating around, but are not a sustainable long term strategy for finding someone you’re compatible with long term.
some ladies go the other direction and look for superficial status symbols, like style or money. Here if you’re trying to date someone with more money than you or someone who’s *too* good looking, they might be just as superficial as you and find a better option.
IMO it’s best to look for someone who you can relate to, have similar philosophies with, and can have fun with. Fun is the key ingredient to a long term relationship and is not the same thing as “butterflies”. If you can do things with your partner that you both enjoy then you’ll become a team. Once you’re a team of equals then you’re good to go.
This so called article or long winded advice is the same kind of crap that a group potetial snot nose spinsters put together in morning boardroom brain storming sessions at those over priced girlie fashion magazine. So to the writer I would like to give you some constructive commentary for life. Your an empty headed dim witted tw That felt good. I’m going to the bathroom now, bye.
The thought occurs to me that women menstruate between the age of 35 – 50 years old, even though pregnancies are higher risk at that age, and women are less attractive to men. And that’s not to mention fact that healthy women live 30 – 40 years after menopause. By male reckoning, God made some mistakes here.
So…
Hottentroll Apron thinks that according to what she calls “male reckoning,” that the ideal design is for a woman to drop dead the moment she ages out of fertility. Obviously she has some reading comprehension issues, because we spend a lot of time here talking about how the ideal arrangement for children is to be raised by both of their biological parents. Sometimes we even discuss the virtues of extended families and the benefits of grandparents and other elders in the lives of younger generations. I think God knew exactly what He was doing, as His design amply demonstrates.
Is that the best you can do?
By male reckoning, God made some mistakes here.
It would be a mistake to assume that God makes mistakes. If one finds one self at odds with God, one can only look in the mirror to see the problem.
People as they are now are in a continuous state of imperfection. The fact that people die should be a big clue. We are fallen and not the same as we were when the 1st man and women were created.
Lyn87:
Neither here nor there, but your avatar is different. You’re the same dude that’s posted here for years, I expect?
Human beings, in sharp contrast to most other species, give birth to children who are helpless for many years. Most of the higher brain functions develop in this extended infancy and childhood. God or nature or whatever caused us to evolve longer lifespans as a result, as grandparents help keep these infants alive during the crucial period. No mistakes were made at any level, except perhaps in your own mind.
Hope this helps, you feminist dullard.
Boxer
Boxer noticed the different icon next to my name and asked if I’m the original Lyn87.
Yes, it’s me. When I typed the post above I mistyped my e-mail address, so not only did it put my comment into moderation until Dalrock manually unlocked it, but WordPress apparently assigned that comment a different icon since it didn’t recognize the address.
Good eyes, Boxer – I’m guessing you’re an “S” rather than an “N” according to the MBTI. I probably never would have noticed, as I am so far off the scale as an Intuit it’s a wonder I can remember what color my own house is, much less the color of my usual icon.
Ruth, you are calling men that are 5s or 6s “unattractive”. Meanwhile, you are over 30 with a small child. Just your age makes your MMV max out at about 7, and having a little one living with you costs you 2-3 more points to most men. I think if anything the men you are describing are ultimately ABOVE your MMV, once they think about it more deeply. I predict that if you don’t quickly and drastically dial back your hypergamy, you are guaranteed to price yourself out of marriage.
What a horrible bunch of women you are… Men should Go Their Own Way and avoid adult babies like you lot.
“Meanwhile, you are over 30 with a small child. Just your age makes your MMV max out at about 7” That’s being really generous… I would have said 5 max for the snowflake but average 3.
Very hard too for us good single guys today looking to get married.
I’m reading the “article” and some of the ridiculously long comments tread in absolute and utter disbelief and disgust.
I weep for the future of the US (seeing as most of the posters seem to be Americans) and the world as such looking at this. What a bunch of cynical (trying to sound sophisticated and “realistic” no doubt) moronic claptrap.
Historically average marriage age and age of first birth has fluctuated wildly, depending on conditions. Mean living age mean little in that regard since it’s just that, a mean. Child mortality and a hazardous environment brings the mean way down. 60 or above has always been a realistic goal if you survived early childhood and kept out of trouble.
Which brings us to the not often heard truth, that marriage age and age of first birth has not changed that much through human history. It has always been around thirty plus minus five years, exempt in the exceptional cases of nobility and poor people.
Seeing as the last hundred years have on average raised living standards to hitherto unheard of levels, easily giving everyone at least five years more an average, marriage age of 35 for woman is completely normal and understandable.
Poor people and/or people in rural remote areas have always married earlier and had the first child earlier. Mostly out of lack of opportunities and out of desperation, loneliness or sheer boredom.
Which in turn makes all of you a bunch of pleps of the lower mental rung.
I actually kind of hope that is true. Or that you are just a very vocal minuscule minority.
Flies attract other flies I guess.
By age 30 most people (and people historically) are just starting on life. You are just gaining your feet and establishing yourself as a human being. Unless you have the statistical unlikely gift (curse in disguise?) of inheriting wealth. And then it’s only in terms of material possessions (your mental development will at best be the same as your peers).
Following the general consensus and theme of this thread you allegedly generally have to do everything of formative import in your life In a span of less than ten years.
But ten years is *nothing* if you also have to make a living, get general footing in life and educate yourself! Ten years go by in a wink.
Only people in their teens and very early twenties don’t realize this, being raised on the television and the “reality” of popular fiction in general.
Statistically it is very, very few people who have accomplished anything of note or worth by the age of thirty.
Biologically most woman are more than capable of having healthy children to around age 40.
Chance of conception will drop, true. As with most things biological, there is an arch. That also means that young woman also have a higher chance of miscarriage than woman at the hight of fertility. It doesn’t mean either that you should only have children at the apex of that arch. Nature wouldn’t have permitted pregnancy evolutionarily of there wasn’t chance of success.
With a healthy sexual life it is statistically very possible to be a mom at 40 or above. Of course you shouldn’t take it for granted, but then again nothing in life is given.
Not having children is also an often overlooked option on this age of overhyped motherhood. It makes sense evolutionarily that you can then help care for the genes of your siblings and family instead.
Turns out to be one of the reasons nature probably have permitted homosexuality and old age too.
Men have virtually no expiration date. It is not biological cheap to keep testes in swing and sexually active behaviour (in the very general sense) up. At least as risky and resource consuming as what a woman’s body has to deliver.
If there was little or no chance of making a woman pregnant it would simply have been removed by evolution.
The only thing limiting a man is how fit and attractive he can make himself to the opposite sex. Age seems to be a part of the handicap principle (vis a vis Amotz Zahavi).
That is a man that looks good and is successful at 60 will be incredibly attractive to a woman no matter her age. Today, due to the vagaries of short lived tendencies and fashions she might not be willing to admit it, even to herself fully. But measuring her vaginal fluid level and composition doesn’t lie.
Hope everyone has had a good start to 2016.
There is a book that I would like to recommend, and although it is not Christian based, it does offer a lot of helpful advice that seems conducive to finding a life partner.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Soulmate-Secret-Manifest-Attraction/dp/006169696X
@ Perspective
And a good 2016 to you!
A word of caution:
I didn’t read the book, but the title alone set off red flags. “The Soulmate” myth is a feminist lie that plays a significant role in modern women’s absurd relational expectations. Also, the “Law of Attraction” has is roots in Pagan occult practices. The most effective lies are wrapped up in some truths.
from a classic “a tree grows in brooklyn” 1943
“dont be a fool, they told him. she’s no good. her family’s no good. besides, how do u know you’re the one? if she had you she had others. oh women are tricky. we know. we are women. you are good and tender-hearted. you take her word for it that you are the man. she lies. dont be tricked my son, dont be tricked, our brother. if u must marry, marry a good girl, one who wont sleep with you without the priest saying the words that make it right. if you marry this girl, you are no longer my son, you are no longer our brother. you’ll never be sure whether the child is yours. you will worry while you are at your work. you’ll wonder who slips into your bed beside her after you have left in the morning. oh yes, my son, our brother, that is how women do. we KNOW. WE are women. WE know how they do….”
does this not sound like blasphemy in the face of our “religion” we have in this country called feminism? can u imagine anyone in “polite” society saying this, even a “christian” pastor? no, u cant say this, this is offensive to women, to their daughters, cousins, girlfriends, wives etc. ….men cant handle the truth. they need to pedestalize women in order to be w/ them. i believe this is what we need to get back to, as extreme as it sounds…its not extreme, its LOGIC, honesty and honor. but u know what? men also are just as silly as women and seemingly just as illogical. why is it that so many men like to marry slutty women, even porn stars? i always thought men didnt want to marry even a girl who wasnt a virgin, but maybe only the true alpha dudes can afford to be this picky? betas have to pretend a slut isnt a slut i guess, and debase virgins so sluts dont seem as bad…sad. the reason there are so many slutty women is that men….LOVE slutty women! this is something the man-o-sphere is not acknowledging pretending women are ALWAYS at fault, u guys love alpha women too…slutty women= alpha women…i wonder why so many women choose to slut it up? can u guess? why do u even need to tell a man to not seriously entertain non-virgin women for marriage? its the same as imploring girls to not consider the bad boy, it should be common sense especially for men who are supposed to be so damn “logical”….. even in churches virgins are shamed and are “judgmental” so even christian girls lose their will to be virtuous! what incentive is there to be virtuous? all u get to be is a social leper and idiotic, whilst whores are praised everywhere for their “empowerment”
another thing is why, even in churches is the term “long-term relationship” given the same status as marriage? since when? according to the bible a “long-term relationship” is really “long-term fornication”, and a girlfriend shouldnt be given the same respect as a wife. no wonder marriage isnt taken seriously when its likened to “relationships” AKA “long-term one night stands” and fornication is respected and thoroughly accepted to the level of marriage, even for religious people….this society is truly fucked if even churches are feminized…..
Rebuilding the slut mound there.. won’t do no good. No ring for sluts. This is not a site that promotes your take on ‘alpha women’. No such thing but anyway… sluts are to be used, not to be married. Only desperate men take that option.
Please take your cuck fantasies elsewhere.
Even on the (cough) “Christian” dating sites, which I was a fool to sign-up with for about a year…….lesson learned. Never again. No dates btw……..I wasn’t “letting God lead me” and my profile didn’t have enough, or it had too much……most Christian women would put on their profile “Any distance” yet you contact them / wink / smile and its immediately “the distance is too far” (she only lived twenty miles away). Happens a lot.
Every single-mom rates herself as “hot” and “very attractive” because her friends told her, or the “dating experts” determined this “scale” and her ego (Edging Out God) took over. I saw women who were average claiming to be “hot”. Real humility in a woman is on God first, not on her looks or honestly accepting where she is physically. More than likely…she’s just average.
Most men and women are AVERAGE looking. Case. Match. Set. Point.
Christian women belittle and bemoan that there are “no real men around” yet their own expectations are never called into question. Evangelical American Princesses abound…..
And a final note……….if a woman, who is a single mom is demanding perfection from a very imperfect world in her “future husband” remember the measure for which you will be judged upon as well. besides…..a “princess” and “royalty” would NEVER. NEVER……NEVER have a child with the “court jester / clown” no matter how hot he is…………..
I have served jail time ten years back.. I have quit smoking and barely drink.. I went back to school and have a good job.. I am also a single father of 2boys who are performing above grade level expections..This post is aimed towards a person who stated “make sure he doesn’t have a prison record” Really?? A man can still cheat and break your heart with a harvard education doll.. Goodluck..
Well many of us Good men will certainly stay away from a Career woman since they are very Greedy And Selfish since they really want the Best and will Never settle for Less.
I know this is an old post but I’m writing anyway because, well, why not? It’s anonymous. I arrived at this site because I am bummed out about my situation and not sure how to proceed in arriving at the family life of my dreams. I am 34 (strike 1) with a five year old son (strike 2) that was produced within a loving 8 year marriage with my husband who passed away two years ago. My son wants a dad and I want a spouse to share my life with.
I was and will always to some degree be devastated at having lost my spouse after what did not feel like a very long run together. I miss having a partner and best friend to confide in and to be on my team in good and bad times.
I’m pretty but not nearly as pretty (youthful?) as I was in my 20s of course, though I’m probably in better physical shape since I didn’t really need to make an effort with exercise when I was younger as I do now. I think I’m fairly humble. I have had men show an interest in dating me but the ones who I can tell would date me seriously with a desire to commit are either quite a lot older than me or men who I am otherwise unattracted to based on chemistry, looks, financial situation etc.
I am presently dating a man who is 28 (not my preference at all to date someone younger – but he literally appeared on my doorstep for piano lessons and we had good chemistry and common interests so we started dating). He’s a great guy and will be a wonderful catch of a man, probably to a much younger woman someday. He does not want a traditional marriage type relationship, a position he has held for some time before knowing me and which may not change in future, but which I also realize may change when he meets a young woman who inspires him to commit to the vocation of marriage. I am thankful to have someone to spend time with and enjoy experiences with but the longer we date the more clear it is becoming that it is painful for me to build something with a person who is not interested in making a permanent commitment to a shared future together.
As a single mom and widow I may be in a unique position to not need to work and to have plenty of money. Even though I don’t require financial support, I am old fashioned I guess because I need any man I am seriously involved with to want to…and I need to know he is able to provide for me. I desperately need the comfort that comes from having a man who I can view as an equal and someone I can admire who wants to protect me and cherish me. For those who have never had that and wonder if it’s out there, it is. Because I’ve had that experience before I have to believe there are other men out there who I could share a profound connection with but I am worried that my circumstance of already having had that loving partnership and producing a child from that relationship may prove to complicate matters too much for a man who is my equal and who might otherwise consider me a suitable life partner.
@anonymous please
If the 28 year old told you that he doesn’t ever intend to marry, please believe him. Break off the relationship with him before your son becomes attached to him.
@anonymous please
What Original Laura said.
Also, I wouldn’t consider either your age or the fact that you have a young son to be “strikes against” you. You are a widow, which is something altogether different from the usual irresponsible single, never-married woman with children so common these days, who attempts to dress up the toxic baggage from her past that she carries as some sort of gift to be treasured. That’s not you, and you shouldn’t view yourself in that light. You didn’t ask for your circumstances and it is perfectly normal and natural –indeed, God-ordained– for you to be seeking a husband and father figure for your son.
You didn’t mention your faith specifically, but have you investigated whether there are any Christian networks or support groups for widows and widowers in your area? That might be of tremendous help. Anyway, God bless you and good luck!
Fully concur with two posts above. If he has flatly indicated no interest in the marriage relationship you seek, it is a fact. Some guys would play along with what they think you want to hear. This one is being honest.
A widow with child is quite different from contemporary “single mom”. The men I know will see this as a totally distinct category. No strikes.
I think I understand what you are looking for, and it does not seem unreasonable; but it does seem like you have a list of qualifiers that greatly narrows the field. Too old, too young, not enough money, not good looking, etc. Fair enough but there comes a time when lists should be reviewed.
You’re hoping for a man that will provide for you, protect you, cherish you, and that you can admire. Most guys looking to marry will happily sign up for these things. It is the natural order. It is what they want too.
Just to let you know, some of the other things you named sound like they are straight out of the feminsit playbook. You want an equal, a partner, a best friend, someone to be on YOUR team. To many men, this description does not sound like husband.
FWIW, I sincerely hope you find what you seek.
This is true. Feeriker gives good advice. I’d just go further and point out that if you are (as I assume) banging the younger man you speak of, you ought to stop. Widows have a protected status, but if they start banging random men or having short-term flings, then they descend rapidly into being a regular skank-ho, that no man would want.
If you have had sex with some dudes, quit doing that, and get back into long-term planning. You’ll rapidly ruin your chances for a decent man otherwise. We aren’t as dumb nor as forgiving as we were when you were last single. You’ve noticed this, I think.
Lost Patrol had the same reaction I did to your “equal partner” demand. That sounds like a rancid feminist, and not a modest widow who is an observant Christian. Men here are also right to tell you to lose your entitlement. You are mid 30s, and while you might think you’re in good shape, you’re competing with a lot of hot 22-year olds. You have to be smart to get what you want, and concentrate on building your brand by advertising qualities that those young hoes lack: modesty, understatement, respectability, and the ability to keep your important commitments. In many ways you have it easier than you would have, because younger and hotter women are such disgusting slatterns these days. Even so: Be realistic about the type of man you can get. There aren’t many hunky handyman secret-millionaires out there, despite what you’ll read in the romance novels.
I hope you get your man. He’s out there.
Boxer
It is sad that the justifiable support and resources that society bestows to the unfortunate (and uncommon) young widows is being misappropriated by butt-slut, CS-receiving single moms, who outnumber widows 100 to 1 in the under-40 set.
Widows should be the ones doing the most to delegitimize single-mothers-by-choice, for they eat up the resources that would (and should) go to widows with children…
I would not agree that having been married before and having a child would not make things harder. They most certainly would!
They are not as bad for a widow, but they are a challenge that some men will not want to take.
She needs to be less concerned about aiming older and instead focus on some more realism. An older man is quite likely and she needs to accept that. She may be more attractive than most her age, and that would be a good thing, but she is still older.
Boxer makes some good points as well.
I think, it is, if not wrong, then at least unhelpful for Anonymous Please to describe herself as a single mum – for that term has undesirable connotations: She is a widow with a child. Without wishing to appear moralistic I do find some cause for concern in her fourth paragraph. In the most passive way she says that she found herself dating a younger man who she says literally turned up on her doorstep, as if she had no choice in the matter (he may be hot but she should not confuse that as people always do in those circumstances with his having similar interests – women always find that they have similar interests to attractive men). She describes him as someone not wanting a traditional marriage – so then why date him? She says that traditional marriage is a position that he has held for some time, so are we to assume he is presently married and she his piece on the side? That he will be a passing fancy is not merely indicated by their age gap (six years is far too old when he is only twenty-eight – for a man dating a thirty four year old with a child is liking dating your mother – I know: I did the same at his age) but her acknowledgement that one day he will make a good husband to some younger woman. She knows she shouldn’t and that he will pass: I detect regret.
If as appears to be the case Anonymous Please is a tutor of Pianoforte it is not exactly common for adult men to want to take up the instrument (or just turn-up) and progress will – at best and not withstanding Bill Murray in Ground Hog Day – be slow. Unusual situation – are we getting the true and full story??
Finally: is bummed-out an American expression?
Here is some good advice for real Christian women wanting to marry. Also has an article for Christian men wanting to marry. Lots of Red Pill reading.
http://ijustmetme.com/2014/07/9-reasons-you-may-not-know-why-christian-singles-ladies-cant-find-their-boaz-david-or-joseph/
Most single women nowadays will Never be marriage material at all since they’re and always will be Party Animals.
Hey Dalrock, great post for women in their 30’s. They need to hear this stuff.
It’s not all about beauty when you turn 30 – brains is still important!
/Adam – ReelingHimIn.Com
Hi,
I have been married for a very long time. Married very young and stayed married. Here is what I would say to all those individuals, male or female, looking to be married. Come to know and love yourself first. If that took time and you are now in your 30s, 40s etc… so be it. Understand that getting married will always feel like you are taking a chance. You are, live with it. Being married will always be about taking the time to understand this human you have married, accept this and get on with your life. In the meantime, be the person you were always born to be. Speak well of others, have compassion and be gentle. You will attract those who act this way and collide with someone who you are willing to take a chance with.
Mary
Mary, instead of giving the same cliched modern ‘find yourself’ advice everyone has received since birth and that has also failed two generations of human beings, why don’t you instead detail how you came to be married young and stay married. It seems to go against the premise of your advice to remain single until you know and love yourself.
Being married isn’t all that you said, it’s part of it, sure. Marriage, in the end, is the taking of a vow, the joining of two people to make a family, who then have certain roles and benefits that they are then to bestow on the other. By squandering those benefits, youthfulness being once, the very advice you are giving tends to hollow out the idea of marriage.
I would love it if you could just add one little component to your advice, to see if you really mean it or not in the context of a Christian life. Simply add ‘remain a virgin’ whilst they get to know themselves and love themselves. I’m sure plenty of Christian women spend their single lives finding themselves and loving themselves, it’s all they do and all they speak about.
And once they are thirty and finally ‘found themselves’ which tends to mean they’ve run out of suitors, suddenly marriage becomes important. Which is to say it never was.
Hi there,
I read your response and do appreciate your feedback. My post reflects my reality and my advice is low keyed as I am. Relationships are work, period. Finding someone is work but leaving your heart open to this takes courage.
You and I approach these ideas differently. My goal in posting was to convey my thoughts and leave space for more dialogue.
Sincerely,
Mary
I just noticed that Anonymous Please posted in August 2016 and is almost certainly long gone from here. However, since there’s a bit of a discussion I thought I’d add some quick thoughts.
Anonymous Please said:
“I have had men show an interest in dating me but the ones who I can tell would date me seriously with a desire to commit are either quite a lot older than me or men who I am otherwise unattracted to … I am presently dating a man who is 28 … He does not want a traditional marriage type relationship”
This is a familiar scene. Our female protagonist is holding out for her ideal suitor. The only men willing to actually commit to her are men she is not attracted to. Meanwhile, she is happy to receive attention from a younger man, who won’t commit to her. Of course, his attention reinforces her opinion of her high self-worth and that she can do better than the men who have been serious with her.
There are three highly likely outcomes:
She continues with her current activities of dating the most attractive men she can find, who continue to refuse to commit to her. As her 40th birthday barrels towards her like a truck on the wrong side of the highway she will lament that there are no “good men” left. Queue bitterness, cats, and a feminist blog.
As above, but she contrives to get knocked up by one of the non-committal hot guys. She may succeed in reeling the sucker in, or he may bail and leave her, now with two kids from two different fathers. Same ending as the above, but with bonus child support.
She settles for one of the men she is not attracted to—probably an older man with a stable job and kids from a previous marriage. Yet, she somehow still knows she could have done better. She can still do better! She stays alert for attention from hotter men. Her attraction to her husband settles into grudging routine and mild arguments. But her secret-millionaire-handyman-prince will be along soon to rescue her. You’ll see.
When men are allowed a trial subscription to Marriage Monthly they tend to opt out right before the trial expires and commitment rears its costly head, as the adage about heifer purchase and complimentary dairy goes. Here’s the secret, ladies:
Your sexual marketplace value is determined by the caliber of men who are prepared to commit to you, not the men who are prepared to have sex with you.
Those are the men for you. Stop fantasizing about the rest.
Mary,
Your bromidic advice isn’t nearly as good as you think it is. Nobody needs to “learn” to love himself/herself. Self-love is hard-wired into the deepest recesses of our beings. Everybody loves himself/herself every minute of every day from birth to death. “Love of self” certainly doesn’t need to be taught: to the extent that anyone needs to “work” on it, it is to learn how to reign it in it lest it consume oneself.
On the contrary, the Bible is crystal-clear about the need to project love to others rather than turn it inward toward oneself. “Love thy neighbor as thyself” would mean precisely nothing if self-love wasn’t already present and strong in each one of us. Our creator knows that we naturally love ourselves so much that when He tells us to treat others well He made a radical demand, and He uses our love of self as the benchmark we must meet.
To put it another way – God demands that we love others… a lot. How much? As much as we love ourselves: that’s how much!
The emphasis on “self-love” is at or near the root of a great many of our problems, both individually and societally. Would a woman who loves others as much as she loves herself deprive her children of their father, or use the courts to deprive her husband of his income and his children? Hardly.
If love of self was important for us to foster the Bible would have made mention of it at some point. It doesn’t, but it says a great deal about the sin of pride.
Funny, that.
A quick follow-up. Ephesians 5 uses self-love as the benchmark for how husbands are to love their wives. In fact, right after telling husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church, Paul drives the point home by telling husbands to love their wives as much as they love themselves.
Love of self is so strong that it is comparable to the love Christ has for the church. It is our natural state.
Hi,
Starting a dialogue, no offense meant.
Mary
Mary,
Dalrock is very open about having dialog here, but this is a rough-and-tumble place where (for the most part) men exchange ideas with other men in a manly way. Women are welcome, but it’s important to understand that Marquess of Queensbury rules don’t apply, and it’s best to avoid leading off with something as monumentally stupid as saying that “love of self” is something that a woman looking for a husband should set as her first priority… or even be working to increase at all.
Not only should it not be her first priority, it shouldn’t even be her last priority. She already loves herself… everyone does. She needs to learn how to love others, because that does not come naturally. In fact, Titus Chapter 3 specifies the kind of love that young women need to be taught: the older women are to teach them to love their husbands and their children. Everyone always talks about the love mothers naturally have for children, but scripture (and 5000 years of observation) say that women’s self-love is greater than the love they feel for their own offspring.
FWIW, the rest of your post was relatively unobjectionable, if unoriginal.
Also, I doubt anyone took offense. That’s how we talk around here.
…it’s best to avoid leading off with something as monumentally stupid as saying that “love of self” is something that a woman looking for a husband should set as her first priority… or even be working to increase at all.
Lyn, she probably doesn’t know any better than to default to New Ageism (“Come to know and love yourself first.”) and solipsism (“My post reflects my reality…”). It’s what modern western women are immersed in and it has the effect of even further inhibiting what little critical thought capacity exists.
Your point about posting something so monumentally stupid as women’s need to love themselves Ueber Alles just underscores that point. No one with any sense of awareness of their surroundings who wanted to be taken seriously would have ever dared make such an inane statement in these environs. This leads me to assume that “Mary” is either a troll (and not a very bright one) or suffers from some form of diminished mental capacity (harsh, perhaps, but I go where the evidence appears l lead me).
Mary,
It is not offensive. It just wrong. People don’t stay married because they love themselves. They get married because they put their marriage ahead of themselves. Because it is not always going to be good. There are going to be bad times. And staying married during the bad times, that is easy if (and only if) the marriage comes first, and NEVER yourself.
@Mary
What marriage really is a rundown:
I’m glad you read it but I wish you would try to understand it. Dalrock wrote this post because there are numerous 30 + year old so called Christian women complaining about not being able to find a ‘real Christian’ man to marry. And get this…. they all followed your advice to a T and spent their time ‘finding themselves’ and ‘loving themselves’ – often with other men – and now cannot understand why, after having squandered their most fertile and attractive years with men they were not serious about, Christian men want nothing to do with them.
It’s called ’cause and effect’. These women gave the things men want from them for marriage away to other men for free and now want full payment from the Christian men who have worked themselves into a good economic, social and emotional stable position. Any man who accepts such a deal is a man who doesn’t have options and thus isn’t the man these women are looking for, hence the problem. They want what they cannot have; and they cannot have it because they listened to the hogwash you promote.. which is nothing more than modern day hokum, closer to the pagan worship of self.
In the end you are spreading lies, silly little lies that help no one but sounds so good to those whose ears are itched by such lies rather than the truth of marriage.
feeriker,
I think your first notion about Mary was probably the correct one… that she’s stuck in the default cultural mindset rather than acting as a deliberate troll. Granted, what she wrote about self-love and “my reality” is spectacularly bad, but it has become pretty standard fare for people in general and women in particular for the past few decades. The church has not proved to be much of a bulwark against it, either. Unfortunately, thanks to Mary I’ve have the Whitney Houston version of that dreadful paean to pride, “The Greatest Love of All,” running through my head off-and-on for the last few hours.
A related thought occurred to me this morning: women are told to love themselves (because it is right and they “deserve” to), while men are told to prove themselves (because it is their duty and society deserves their efforts and sacrifices). The difference is profound, it is pervasive, it begins in the nursery, and feminists are utterly blind to it… while they comically squawk about “everyday sexism” as if women were the ones who get the worst end of the deal.
I don’t have much to add beyond what’s been said (feministhater did a particularly good take-down), except to stress that a woman in her 30’s looking to marry ought to be asking herself the question everyone asks of men: “What do you bring to the table?” Then apply Mark MacIntyre’s penultimate paragraph to the answer:
If she doesn’t like what’s on offer she can either accept her lot or figure out how to bring more to the table herself.
What marriage really is a rundown:…
The man said many useful things, but he was not convincing enough. He should have quoted specific passages of Scripture to back up his claims. Failing that, all he succeeded in doing was expressing his own opinions. A lawyer may claim that the law said certain things, but unless he can show his audience the specific parts of the law that says what he claims, he is yet to prove his case.
“Your sexual marketplace value is determined by the caliber of men who are prepared to commit to you, not the men who are prepared to have sex with you.”
Shouldn’t that be your MARRIAGE marketplace value?
“My post reflects my reality and my advice is low keyed as I am. Relationships are work, period. Finding someone is work but leaving your heart open to this takes courage.
You and I approach these ideas differently.”
I’ve always said – women approach relationships like work, which is why they expect to be paid for it. During and after the relationships demise.
Men approach relationships like recreation or hobbies.
Women approach work like recreation or hobbies.
Pretty much you can exchange what men think about relationships with that women think about work. and vice versa.
Dave,
I also thought the guy made quite a few good points, but I wouldn’t hold his lack of references against him: the list was a summary that he derived from a book, which presumably has the references.
I have a different problem with it: although I think he’s spot-on for most of the items, I take issue with about three or four of them, and if they’re backed up by scripture I would contend that the writer was playing fast-and-loose with the text. In my experience, that is a VERY common trait among people who try to make long lists from scripture: in order to increase the number of items (often so as to end up with a round number… like 20, for instance) they pull in the most tangential quotes and apply them to the subject at hand as if they fit perfectly.
What I thought was particularly worrisome is that, in the end, he came right back to, “Be a man and get married” without addressing what that means in today’s environment wherein Biblical marriage is, in fact, illegal for all practical purposes. It’s well-and-good to say, “Marriage is covenant and not a contract,” but I think due diligence would require him to least acknowledge that the state considers it to be a contract (for husbands) and will back up that view with armed intervention if the legal head of the house (the wife) asks them to. He even came right out and said that a person (and let’s be real – he means the wife) may call 9-1-1 for “abuse” (which he “conveniently” left undefined). In fact, he declared that a wife who calls 9-1-1 is doing the “loving” thing when she summons men to do violence on her behalf to the man she vowed to submit to. While I acknowledge that there are extremely rare cases wherein that may be the least-bad course of action, that door has swung so wide that 99% of the time it’s used to usurp headship from the husband rather than deal with actual physical danger. My hackles go up when even “conservative” Christian speakers feel the need to throw a bone to the Divorce-Industrial Complex and the Duluth Model mindset that drives most of it.
@PokeSalad
“Shouldn’t that be your MARRIAGE marketplace value?”
Yes, of course. I assumed that would be synonymous in the context of this conversation, but perhaps I should have specified.
@ Mark McIntyre:
“Your sexual marketplace value is determined by the caliber of men who are prepared to commit to you, not the men who are prepared to have sex with you.”
Quibble here. Her MARRIAGE market value is determined by the caliber of men who are WILLING to commit to you, not the men who are prepared to have sex with you.”
A woman’s sexual market value is determined by the caliber of men she can pull for sex. But most women have to look downmarket to find men willing to marry them. Most women can have sex with men whose SMVs are much much higher than theirs, probably up to 5 points higher. Most women’s SMVs are higher than their MMVs, for this very reason.
@thedeti,
Yes, you and the others who pointed this out are quite right. That was what I was getting at, but the two terms do have different accepted meanings. I’ll be more accurate next time.
Mark:
Yes, but notice I also changed the first “prepared” to “willing”.
It’s not enough for a man to be prepared to marry a woman, He has to be not only able to do so, but ready and willing to do so. So women’s MMVs are determined by the caliber of men willing to marry her. not just “in a position to marry”, but “ready and willing to marry”.
And it’s not just ready and willing to get married. It’s ready, willing and able to marry HER.
Lyn:
To me, the Todd Friel/Wretched piece about marriage at the end, where it was essentially “Man up and get married” missed the mark completely. He says God wants everyone to marry. Well, not really… Paul says if he could he would have everyone be like him, serving God while unmarried with no children. But he realizes that most people won’t; so he tells them “if you can’t contain yourselves, get married because better to marry than to burn (in hell)”.
There’s also no acknowledgment of what legal marriage is now.
Lyn87,
Your comments bring out a good point. The underlying themes must be considered. I would say that I don’t believe my wife really loved herself much, but she was very selfish as indicated by her actions in leaving me after so many years. What “love” means in this context can vary greatly and it is important that everyone is on the same page.
Deti,
Most men remaining single today are not doing so to pursue ministry. That doesn’t eliminate the risks, but a Biblical stance would push toward marriage unless full ministry was the direction. I am not sure exactly how you scope that properly.
Deti
To be fair, he did say, “Unless you’ve got the gift of singleness, God wants us to pursue a spouse. Now… He might give you the gift of singleness by not providing a spouse, but if that isn’t the case we should be getting married.” Also, the “burn” Paul refers to is to burn with passion. He’s addressing believers: the reference to “burning” is not a warning against Hell-fire.
Like you, I see the bigger issue as this: if marriage is NOT a contract, why would a Christian not consider himself married unless he had signed a legally-binding agreement before witnesses and registered the union with the state? A church does not need a state-issued liquor license to administer communion, so why would a Christian require a state-issued marriage license to enter into the communion of marriage, and what does it do to the nature of the covenant when one voluntarily cedes formal headship over that covenant to the state (especially when the church enthusiastically goes along with the state’s anti-Biblical rulings)?
I have nothing against marriage per se, but I also know that a guy who thinks a wife demonstrates love by initiating potentially-lethal proxy violence is not the sort of guy who’s likely to have the back of a man who takes his advice if things go sideways for him. It’s one thing to speak in sex-neutral terms (and even that is problematic), but Family Law is anything but sex-neutral, and the state WILL enforce what it sees as a contract by force, so the fact that he gave a nod to the Duluth Model with nary a word to wives about abusing their privilege or to churches about supporting accused husband is telling… and what it tells me is to be suspicious.
Billy S,
You wife betrayed her vows, betrayed you, and betrayed the Gospel for the sake of her own short-term happiness.
Trust me: she loves herself PLENTY. In fact, those are the actions of a woman who loves herself more than anything in the Universe… indeed, more than everything else in the Universe combined.
I wouldn’t disagree with you Lyn. Though she also lacked serious confidence in herself. This action would still likely not have happened without support from a wide range of sources, including (unfortunately) my now previous church that preaches “no divorce” but never reinforced that with her.
(I was kicked out because I was having a really tough mental struggle handling all this on my own and the leaders got tired of dealing with me. That would be the topic of a whole post in and of itself.)
I would agree that one of the things I kept trying to work through with my wife was that the world didn’t revolve around her (or me for that matter). So that would certainly reinforce your point, but I would have probably equated proper confidence with love in the past. Perhaps I just need to change my own views.
This would be a message to get out as well. Many may not properly realize what “love” is. Though some of it could be solved if people really thought things through.
There’s also no acknowledgment of what legal marriage is now.
If I was a cynical sort, I would be acknowledging legal marriage as this:
“for a man, getting married today means you’ll probably either win small or lose big…” – Lyn87
Mary:
Why don’t you expound on your success recipe? Married how young? Virgin at marriage? Husband chaste at time of marriage? Husband wealthy or from a wealthy family? Husband attractive? How attractive are you? Do you give your husband sex on demand or make him grovel for it? Are you submissive?
My point is there are a whole lot of factors that going into a successful marriage, you just have to expound on which version: yours or his?
I bet there are alot of women, christian and otherwise, who think they have a successful marriage but if you asked their husbands in a forum like this, you would get a different picture.
Strikes me that by following this simple list, most women will gain attention no matter their age:
1) Be kind
2) Don’t be fat
3) Cook
Women often mistake kindness with niceness, although they are quite different in practice. A “nice” person my look good on the surface, but they lack deeper spritual values, such as charity, compassion, and empathy. The last two are rather closely linked, as it is difficult to be fat on wholesome food.
In the Western context, very few women have all three, so they beat men away with sticks if they do. If a 30s women is also open to age gap relationships, she has the pool of 30-60 yo men at her disposal. Much better odds to compete with a 45yo woman than a 25yo, especially as most women if 25 would not entertain the idea of a man of 45.
(And pro tip, if you batch cook, as most of my female friends and relatives do, give your suitor a few containers when you cook something you think he might like. If you are expecting him to take you out, the least you can do is provide him with a homemade lunch.)
The last portion may have seemed manipulative, but what is meant is that women must learn to be useful. Learning to batch cook, what heats well, how to package properly, what is widely appealing, these are necessary skills that must be practiced. The most useful thing a woman can do to help in a wide variety of situations (death, illness, childbirth, moving, parties etc.) is to provide food. If a woman cannot do that, huge swaths of social ties and interactions cannot be made or maintained. Food is central.
Isa says:
March 14, 2017 at 12:41 am
You make some good points here. What I think is really most important, though, is that a (potential) wife adopt the attitude of a helpmate, That might mean cooking, or it could be any dozen other things. The word “attitude” is what’s really important. Far too many women today, especially the young ones, seem to have the attitude of “hey, you’ve been graced with the presence of my awesome and irreplaceable self in your life. What, you want me to actually CONTRIBUTE something to the relationship? SEXIST PIG!!!!!”
A couple of years back I cataloged a whole laundry list of things that I, a now-single man, do daily and on weekends to maintain myself, my body, my wardrobe, my pantry, and my house. In casual conversation with certain random women I made mention of this list and the key items in it. I was APPALLED at how many of these women –the MAJORITY, in fact– admitted that they not only could not do most of the items on my list, but WOULD not do them even if they had to. We are talking about things that their grandmothers did as a matter of daily routine (cooking, laundry, clothes mending, ironing, to name just a few). I asked a couple of them that if a man could do all of those things himself and that no women of his acquaintance could or would do any of them, what use would he possibly have for such a woman that would justify the resources of his that she consumed (and no, sex is an insufficient contribution, meager and transient as it is)? I never got any answers to that question.
Feeriker,
You are right that attitude is the most important. Any woman, even an older one, can learn to do any of the things you noted. Being a helpmeet is a key aspect however, and few women meet it, at least when you talk to them that is what comes across.
Attractiveness is important, but only to a point. That has a much wider range than it may seem. The attitude may even make someone who doesn’t otherwise fit the profile to be more than acceptable.
I still doubt I would personally aim for a very overweight woman, but I could be much more flexible on some of that if the attitude was right.
The danger is thinking the attitude was good before marriage and then getting surprised after marriage. Though many of the young princesses you note would not even try to pretend to have that attitude, so that ironically helps a searcher.
@Feeriker
Shocking isn’t it? At my cousin’s wedding they had to search out my grandmother, as none of the bridesmaids could sew on a button. A button. I understand most people cannot french hem chiffon, but why is simple mending beyond their ken?
Of course the overall attitude is the most important, and a woman need not be model thin, merely healthy. I do find that giving simple steps of “things to do” broken down is a bit more successful than giving advice verrryyy open to interpretation. I dare say all of the women you describe would think of themselves as having a “good wifely attitude.”
i have been dating for 30 years now and yet am not married i need help desperately add comment
Pingback: Advice for women over the age of 30 who are looking to be married. | Σ Frame
OMG! This site if full of really angry men I’d NEVER date!
Send me to a deserted island with 20 cats first!
Relationships are not worth it with such negative people such as those here.
Such angry, jaded, men. How horrible 😦
No wonder you’re all here, writing toxic comments, instead of out on dates and having fun.
–Change and ladies will be attracted to you guys. There’s a lot of nice ladies out there, but if you’re not a good catch, a quality guy, they won’t go for you. Also, make sure you have a decent appearance, I mean, clean, well-groomed and stuff. Stop the hate! Gentlemen don’t behave this way!!!!!!
There’s both, men and women with bad personalities and unrealistic expectations. If you were women, you’d understand things better from a woman’s point of view, instead of being so judgemental and playing victim or insulting half the nation’s population.
Your looking for women but you hate women???? so confusing!
If you were gay men you’d be complaining about MEN not WOMAN.
LOL, just do what women tell you and they’ll desire you. One of the oldest tricks in the book.
How about ladies change from their promiscuous, rebellious, negative, obese, challenging authority ways…men might be attracted to you too.
Lol! No one cares what you think. Just leave. Lol!
That’s right. MGTOW is fueled not by collective action (i.e. marriage strike), but by women making themselves unattractive.
Women are the losers in this scenario, not men. Despite their endless attempts to play catch-up with things like VAWA and punitive child support, women will never achieve the security and happiness of patriarchy. Never.
“There’s both, men and women with bad personalities and unrealistic expectations. ”
true, but the LAWS are ALL on the women’s side, how many women do you hear of losing their kids\ home\ pension\ future earnings and even freedom from jail as they cant pay their alimony ??
as well as all their shared social contacts and under the threat at any moment of the VAWA police turning up expectantly at your door because you had a heated argument.
but as usual, as women just dont get it, they push for more and more and more. when will they be satisfied ?? who knows, until all men are emasculated financially and physically ?
one thing is for sure, fool us once, shame on you, we aint going back in a hurry and we are telling the younger generation (who are getting it) just how insanely titled the field is now (and is increasing) in a womans favour.
* just how insanely *tilted* the field is now (and is increasing) in a womans favour.
p.s. I wonder how the original commentator got on – 7 years after so she is now around 40-ish. Did she heed the advice?
I see that another one of our two “classic” threads is still attracting henput. Sadly, none of their contributions are in any way original, nor do tthey contain anything coherent or factual worth arguing over. Twattheheck’s estrogenated spew is no different, which is why I’m surprised anyone responded to her. If she were really open to enlightenment or correction, all she would have to do is read the OP and the entire comment thread from the beginning – which of course she never had any intention of doing.
My response was more for me than her. This is the type of thinking that shows when a man goes from ‘blue pill’ to ‘red pill’.
Hopefully the lurkers see this as well.
The thing I love most about this article is that, instead of making women feel dumb for wanting to feel strongly about their partner (romantically) like many other manosphere sites do (and they often even go as far to say it’s impractical and rare anyway so quit trying or even thinking it’s possible), you actually say it’s a sin not to! I can give up a whole lot of nitpicky ‘needs’ for just that kind of connection.