In the discussion of Grannies gone wild! newly arrived worker ant Just Asking noticed that something was amiss with the anthill and immediately set about rebuilding it:
Why do you people spend so much of your life discussing things that really have no bearing on your life. If sexy grandma wants to hookup with sexy grandpa for a little action, so what. Let them have their fun. Or are you really that desperate to find something/anything to complain about and yet another thing to blame it all on women. Gee whiz people have you nothing to worry about but what other people are doing.
Fellow colony member T eventually recognized a kindred spirit and started rebuilding as well:
I agree with you. But the manosphere enjoys insulting women, and granny’s wrinkled up lady bits are an easy target.
The OP of course had nothing to do with insulting women or granny’s aging lady bits, but if you are a worker ant you have to do the best you can.
The point of the post was how the media sells the fantasy to women that their romantic prospects somehow don’t decline dramatically with age. In this case the media pulled out all of the stops in an effort to claim that this was true even for 68 year old grandmothers, but the most important impact is actually on 30 something and middle aged women. The media of course also targets this fantasy directly at these younger (but not young) women, as I’ve demonstrated with Eat Pray Love, How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Lorraine Berry, and Single in the Suburbs. But selling this fantasy for the oldest women gives comfort to aspiring divorcées of all ages. If granny still has it all going on, surely their own nagging fears about reentering the dating market are entirely unfounded.
All of this constant reassurance from the media is very effective, even though the message is preposterous. It is absurdly easy to see through these fantasies but the target audience wants to believe. They don’t want to know the truth behind these stories, as CL recently described:
my brother sent some woman (a university student) he’s talking to Dalrock’s post on Eat Pray Cats and How Stella Got Her Groove Back, and this woman said she felt “deflated” after reading it. LOL
It is important to remember that this deflation isn’t an act of cruelty; it is in fact an act of kindness. It is an act of kindness to the children who would otherwise have their father ejected so their mother can collect 30 pieces of silver. It is also an act of kindness to the woman herself. It can only help her to understand that if she decides to blow up her family for profit she can’t actually expect to be magically rewarded with a better man. She needs to know that in real life the best men aren’t pining for a treacherous, aging woman with another man’s children and a track record of not keeping her most sacred of commitments. The best men have the best options, and none of these markers is a positive thing in the eyes of men with options.
Being honest with her upfront will spare her decades of regular Where have all of the good men gone? conversations. One problem with treachery is it makes for very little sympathy. The same women who egged her on to divorce in the first place will never let her forget how foolish she was for divorcing such a good man, and the children she put through the meat grinder aren’t going to have much patience for her complaining about the results of her obvious foolishness either.
While the point of the original post was the catastrophic fantasy being sold to women, there is also a valid point to make regarding the unseemliness of our elderly talking and acting in such an undignified manner. Commenter gdgm+ linked to an excellent article by Kay Hymowitz titled Desperate Grandmas, which covers both the true outcomes for those who sold the culture “feminist wisdom” and the gross indignity of their continued attempts to deny reality.
See also: Why do you care?
Unoriginal worker ant trolls are unoriginal.
As mentioned before, T is a great learning tool.
Speaking of much needed admonishment, I’m searching for one of your past pieces I recalled reading wherein you discussed a husband/wife counselor team. The wife apparently had problems getting the women to listen to anything until they were thoroughly assured their husbands were getting an earful in the other room.
[D: I think you mean this post by Sheila Gregoire. I referenced it here (perhaps elsewhere as well).]
I’m working on a post where I’ve catalogued some examples of said reaction in response to a post on biblical scripture on a “Bible” page on facebook and the post would provide some more grounding for my thoughts.
@TKI
Call it: Counselor Game.
I can’t understand the shamelessness of T and Just Asking. When I read the New York Post article, I cringed with embarrassment for my fellow women. It isn’t kind and loving to allow someone to make a spectacle of themselves without trying to intervene.
SunshineMary,
It hurts their feelings. Or it makes them angry/sad/insert emotion here. It makes it even harder to read into something that most don’t want to believe or understand.
A little (T)flation never hurt anyone.
Don’t you all understand? T’s already got her Eat, Pray, Love story all figured out. She’s got the papers, the hunky foreign dude with the epic name (Juan Hugo Rodriquez Rodriquez Suárez Lopez Sanchez the Third) and just needs that little bit of reassurance, that’s all.
Just because she will destroy her family in the process shouldn’t mean a thing. How dare you criticise her and her vag’s tingles?! She wants to live that life of the Smexy Granny, how dare you deny her, her right?! For shame gentlemen, for shame!
You just wait till I go full T on your ‘tarded asses!
Though love IS love. If you look at the way men interact with each other, confronting each other and giving reality checks is an important and appreaceated part of the dynamic. A man that cares about you calls you on your bullshit so you don`t mess up stuff in your life.
In a similar manner men take responsibility for giving reality checks to children and women. WHen men set boundaries for their children, when men tells them to evaluate themselves realistically so they put in proper effort to actually acomplish what they want, when men push their children to tolerate discomfort to gain something more important, that is all an expression of how men care. Men tend to feel it is very important that their children get these things right and so take on the task of confrontation that involves discomfort. It is being badcop to moms good cop and it is anoble thing to do because you get resistance and become unpoppular by doing so in the moment though ultiamtely you get respected. Men have the same tendency and the same task towards women and with regards to society as a whole. Because women will not AS A GROUP take it upon themselves to call bullshit and point ot harsh realities it is men that has to do so. And it is men who are best at seeing sugarcoated bullshit and who feel most reward by doing so. It is a thing that is intimately linked to testosterone and placing more importance on what one sees as “right” in the grander scheme of things than what someone feels “right now”.
For sure there are other motivations as well in the manosphere for calling out stuff. Taking care of mens interests and sometimes just anger and bitterness. But the core reason why men call out such stuff is because they care about what happens to society and what happens to people. It is about taking responsibility as a man and about caring as a man.
Dalrock is completely correct that the seeling of the divorce fantasy, even for the very old, leads women to miscalculate wether to divorce or not. Everyone looses that way. The women, their husbands, the children and teh society at large that suffers the consequences of divorce and an even more scewed sexual market place.
On the basis of the above I am sceptical of men who can`t see any reason to call stuff out other than to complain about what is a problem for you as an individual. If you are not able to see the way Dlarock and others take responsibility and show a very necessary and costly tough love then what does that say about YOUR lack of an ability to do the same and the selfishness and lack of manhood that underlies that?
T is for Team woman. So are the supplicating manginas like the original commenter.
This is the result of a lifetime of programming, or a PTSD-like effect from excess feminist exposure.
Either way, they continue to parrot the same tired talking points, kind of like how a senile old person keeps telling the same stories over and over, forgetting that they have said it a hundred times.
From Roissy’s The Unbearable Triteness of Hating:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/the-unbearable-triteness-of-hating/
Definitely, telling someone a harsh truth is , in the long run, better than filling their head with reassuring lies. See: all single men who believed that being kind and gentlemanly toward women would get them girlfriends and eventually a wife.
Is this supposed to mean that a guy can’t obsess over guitar, or entrepreneurship, or anything else for its own sake?
That doesn’t really track with experience. Guys who are the best at something most often aren’t doing it to try to impress chicks. Even if they tell you that’s why, and even if chicks are a side-benefit of the obsession, it isn’t really why: they’d still obsess over it if there were no women around at all.
So if the criticism is that Game and PUAdom is just another way of supplicating to the wants of women, I don’t think Roissy has really dodged the criticism.
@The Karamazov Idea–
This group: http://www.familylife.com/weekend
They follow that tactic of assuring the women that the husbands are getting it x10 as bad. Watch for it when towards the end they break up into two groups by gender.
Ooops… *that* woman… she… she speaks with that group. Oh noes! Shoulda clicked the link before posting.
Honestly, I think the only thing that permeates a woman’s mind after 16 hours of marriage counselling is that Jesus doesn’t want her to be a doormat.
Good grief.
The other thing I got from that conference…. They had this video of a pastor type guy. Decent looking, very active preaching “the word”. He’s always away from home. And his wife…. She’s huurrrrrrting. He takes her out for 10th anniversary dinner. He has set up the *perfect* thing– with videos and gifts and waiters doing things– ten homages to *special* moments of their marriage. But the wife’s heart… it is not moved by this.
Then… dude drives his wife to a place where they used to make out. He’s thinking he has done the most awesome date ever. He remembered everything. He did it all perfectly…. He puts his arm around her. The dude clearly expects to get some action here….
But then she slams him down hard. He’s never home! She doesn’t feel loved! He life is empty and meaningless! All those souls saved and mentored mean nothing to her!
The guy his actually shocked. Being a dumb guy(tm) he never knew his wife was in such agony…. And so… the guy… he got down on his knees… and begged god to make him a better husband. He prayed and prayed. There was no making out on his tenth anniversary. Just prayer.
And the wife…. She… she’s moved by this. Her heart is touched. And then she starts praying, too. [I can’t remember, but I assume she’d be praying that her husband would be a better husband, too. But that’s me being cynical.]
And now….
Everything is all better. They are like the classic totally happy couple now. It’s all good. The end.
Now it sounds like a great story. It’s touching. It’s moving. I’m so glad they are together. But let me tell you… the only thing I get out of it, is that when women sow their beach with mines and machine gun nests… when women rebel against 1 Cor 7… the message here is that this is a powerful tool to transform men and make them loving, spiritual, and godly.
But the modern woman does not need any encouragement to shut down on 1 Cor 7. I think… in their minds… they tell themselves that if their husband was more like Jesus then it would be a lot easier for her to obey 1 Cor 7. But the problem is… Jesus would want her to obey 1 Cor 7, too. In reality, she despises Jesus as much as she does her husband.
Hymowitz’s article is okay, but there’s not enough discussion of cats in it to be believable.
Now think about that.
It’s their anniversary, and she’s seething with resentment. That’s totally a classic fruit of the spirit, eh? Reminds me of Esther as a similar banquet. Except that it’s the opposite.
So she goes on this date… and she’s basically got her arms folded the whole time: “I’m physically with you… but my heart is far from you.” (That sounds like that classic Ephesians 5 bit about our marriage represents Christ and the Church. Really.)
So he’s doing everything he knows to please her and her one contribution to it is humiliate him at the most sensitive and intimate moment. Way to go, sister! Sounds like that “Love and Respect” seminar really paid off! Just wonderful reciprocity there…. Let’s see… guy bends over backwards for you while you complain about how he does it. Brilliant! Sounds like bliss to me! I know, I know… after all… she has the hardest job in the world(tm).
Boy, I bet back when they had sex it was mighty uncomfortable. I imagine she just laid back with her arms folded the whole time.
What a bitch.
Yes they so desperately want it to be true, so they bite hard on the “Even Grandma has it easy” line.
One of the best nuggets of wisdom I ever heard was….
People will believe a lie if they want it to be true, or if they are afraid it is true.
It is amazing the manipulation you can accomplish with this nugget. Practically all news and media is based upon it.
“A guy who spends his life obsessing over climbing the corporate ladder to get more attention from women is a loser.
A guy who spends his life obsessing over mastering guitar and playing in a rock band to get more attention from women is a loser.
A guy who spends his life obsessing over pursuing financial rewards and acquiring resources to get more attention from women is a loser.
A guy who….. ah, you get the point.”
uh huh – it’s about co-dependency – being dependent on other’s approval of you as criteria for your own self acceptance… Depending on women or men’s approval of you as basis for acceptance of your self is obviously a losing proposition. You gotta find that within. But a lot of us do exactly the opposite. We seek approval of others (be they female, male, sentient or spirit or god like…) before we can find acceptance of ourselves.
That Hymowitz article about Desperate Grandmas is a murderer’s row of neurotic Jewish women.
@ stingray It hurts their feelings. Or it makes them angry/sad/insert emotion here. It makes it even harder to read into something that most don’t want to believe or understand.
But it doesn’t hurt my feelings or make me feel anything in particular once I get past the yucky thought of someone’s grandma having sex. I don’t feel the “embarrassment for my fellow women” that sunshinemary felt precisely because I am not on “team woman” and I know that someone’s grandmother dating or even acting slutty has nothing to with me personally. Kind of gross, but not my business or problem.
Just asking’s point was basically that she didn’t care about what grandma did sexually and she didn’t think that anyone else should either. My point was that they don’t care, but a woman waving her saggy lady bits around is an easy target and fun for the manosphere to insult. And if you reread the comments there you will see that fun was had by most.
@Some Guy: “But the modern woman does not need any encouragement to shut down on 1 Cor 7. I think… in their minds… they tell themselves that if their husband was more like Jesus then it would be a lot easier for her to obey 1 Cor 7. But the problem is… Jesus would want her to obey 1 Cor 7, too. In reality, she despises Jesus as much as she does her husband.”
My (ex-)wife and I had a variant on this conversation a few months before she filed for frivorce (for the second and final time). Paraphrasing, she reiterated that, regardless of 1 Cor. 7 and Ephesians 5, I was not entitled to either sex or respect because I was not sufficiently Jesus-like in several specific areas. In what I thought was an inspired moment, I referred her to 1 Peter 3 and argued that if a Christian wife is obligated to love, respect, and submit to even an unsaved husband, surely she is required to do the same for a saved but (in her view) insufficiently Christ-like husband. Her response? “Maybe it’s easier to live with an unsaved husband.”
Her conduct has continued further downhill from there, including a rushed remarriage to a twice-divorced “lay pastor” (who, now that I think about it, may give her an opportunity to find out firsthand whether it’s easier to live with an unsaved husband).
“If you are not able to see the way Dlarock and others take responsibility and show a very necessary and costly tough love then what does that say about YOUR lack of an ability to do the same and the selfishness and lack of manhood that underlies that?”
No shit Sherlock? ~ MAN UP!
@Danger
Brilliant. This is it exactly. The lie in this case is believed by women because they want to believe it, and men because they fear it is true.
@ Danger and Dalrock
A comfortable lie is always preferred over an uncomfortable truth.
We find comfort in what we want, and in a perverse way, we find comfort in the things we are afraid of, but know about. What we really fear, that which makes us truly uncomfortable, is that which we don’t know or don’t understand.
T
this article is not about old people fucking.
& T goes out of her way, to passively aggressively tell ppl not to judge the decrepit granny slut …
Its all about the manosphere insulting slut std ridden, white trash grannies, nothing to do with how disgusting & grotesque these hags of so called women really are …
So … Sucking the life out of the moral decency of a society, isnt the real insult, no its calling the decrepit sluts for what they are … thats the real insult
T proving hags arent just treacherous liars, theyre also grotesque decrepit facsimiles of sociopaths
Again T knows what she’s doing, sociopathic liars arent hard-wired, theyre made one failed relationship at a time, on their way to the carousel
You decrepit hags, need to close your legs sooner, rather then later … unless you want to become a std ridden trashy granny slut …
Seriously riding the carousel at the age of 40+ is a sad joke … especially for the men stupid enough to sleep with your decrepit sags & wrinkles
@someguy you said-
“The guy his actually shocked. Being a dumb guy(tm) he never knew his wife was in such agony…. And so… the guy… he got down on his knees… and begged god to make him a better husband. He prayed and prayed. There was no making out on his tenth anniversary. Just prayer.
And the wife…. She… she’s moved by this. Her heart is touched. And then she starts praying, too. [I can’t remember, but I assume she’d be praying that her husband would be a better husband, too. But that’s me being cynical.”
Don’t forget how she rubbed circles on his back while he prayed…
T just loves to fitness test you guys. Apparently her husband isn’t enough.
MackPUA is sending the proper message belittling aged carouseling. Much healthier for a sane society than to encourage that behavior to motivate women to divorce. The whole piont of these last two article is to show the obsurdity of women using the thought of better romance and love awaiting for a woman after divorce as a reason to divorce. Or worse as a way to fill an empty soul devoid of joy and happiness.
And on the topic of sluts, the 2 Live Crew says it best…
(NSFW, No kids)
“The same women who egged her on to divorce in the first place will never let her forget how foolish she was for divorcing such a good man”
if only
instead, other women will join her is transferring her guilt into man-hating, new VAWA provisions, and on and on
the problem is that at NO TIME in the entire life of a western female, is she ever confronted with the truth
indeed much of the “economy” is geared solely to women explicitly denying their aging, as they slather on expensive cosmetics decades after they should have retired
their hero oprah sells skin-fibroblasts to these very women, their “magic lotions” derived from the circumcised foreskins of baby boys, their delusions of long-lost youth obtained thru the screams of children
and these are our Moral Commandantes! issuing orders to men and constructing their Mancage Nation, while they practice incredible evil and pat each other on the back
a huge part of u.s. consumerism is driven directly as sop for aging, frustrated women — they cant get a man (whenever the wish) so they take it out via shopping, guess how the govt and corporations feel about that
half the media and purchasing relies on maintaining females in lifelong states of adolescent romanticism, assuing them that the NEXT bottle of 85-dollar crap will make them fifteen again, the NEXT boyfriend/husband will thrill them utterly, just like on teevee
until after 6 months that wears off, and the NEXT purchase/boyfriend/fix must be found and applied, to assure women who lost it 25 years back that they Still Have It
“and the children she put through the meat grinder aren’t going to have much patience for her complaining about the results of her obvious foolishness either.”
most of them dont even know what happened to them, until it’s too late to confront the person who caused their grief
u.s. females are LOADED with money, houses, cars, new electronic gadgets — all the goodies stolen from fifty years of oppressing the sons of america
while mommy trolls the office and internet for her next male fix, what happens to “her” sons? how do they learn to be men? by imitating mommy and the matriarchy?
the same women who spent the past fifty years screeching about The Chiiiiildren dont give a shit about their own, or anybody else’s for that matter, i watched them over and over toss away men, looking for the next rush, while the hearts of little boys are absolutely crushed
women with most of the money, all the power, complete control over government, law, information, and our sons . . . a Full Female Employment economy, maintained on the destroyed lives of boys and men, largely to sustain the ludicrous fantasies of 30 to 60 y.o. women, which can NEVER be fulfilled, much less maintained, which can ONLY lead to trememdous frustration, and ends up being projected onto Those Evil Men as collective hatred
truly, nirvana for satan
Pingback: Grannies Gone Wild?
Takeaway quote of the post:
in real life the best men aren’t pining for a treacherous, aging woman with another man’s children and a track record of not keeping her most sacred of commitments. The best men have the best options, and none of these markers is a positive thing in the eyes of men with options.
This should be memorized rote so that it can be quoted on demand whenever hamster nuking is needed.
I cringed with embarrassment for my fellow women. It isn’t kind and loving to allow someone to make a spectacle of themselves without trying to intervene.
The horse has left the barn on that one. SSM, I know you don’t do TV, but if you did, you would have experienced reality TV. If people can be “famous”, they will do anything in front of the camera
I don’t particularly think old men’s wrinkles and age spots and bald heads are appealing either. But I don’t dedicate hours of my life bashing them on the internet.
In defense of JustAsking, I would agree that the comments in the post took Granny into a delightful direction of bashing that left the original theme of the post, media driven divorce fantasy, way behind and went its own way. So a new reader that got down into the body of comments which in no way neither agreed, disagreed, reinforced, nor refuted the original theme and set about discussing how, in my case, I don’t want anything to do with granny, nor in other cases where specific cases of Grannies Gone Wild where dregged up, I could see how someone might think us to be petty.
What the newbie doesn’t understand is how all of this is this strange exercise in catharsis and consciousness building where even the most minute and seemingly irrelevant contribution, no matter how off putting or off topic it may be, adds into a greater awareness.
And in the end, I would postulate, that there is, as Dalrock says, a certain kindness even in this cruelty. I have asked this recent question in a roundabout manner as to what do women really want, that rank and file woman, and even what is good for greater society, where not just individual men or women, or some particular group of men or women, but where everyone, men, fathers, husbands, women, wives, mothers, children, sons and daughters is taken into consideration in the greater question of The Public Interest and The Greater Good.
I hold that the value to men of this site is in the foreshadowing, the warning, the awareness of how the culture is laying pitfalls and traps for men with a degree of subtlety that is lost on the most casual observer. An ordinary person would see something like “ChristianMingle” and say “Oh how nice those Christian people have a site for them.” and not see the inherent pandering that is being sold to Christian women and the dangers of that tacit acceptance of divorce and deluded falsehoods and generalizations about divorce. But a Dalrock reader sees this site and says “Watch out”.
The big question for me now is whether a constant education and awareness of men causes more and more to fore sake participation in all social institutions until those rank and file women cry “uncle” and agree to start listening because they see those things that women really want and the historical protections provided to them have eroded away. Or whether enough truth, enough good explanations, enough credible writing can percolate up into the general consciousness that delusion no longer rules the day.
Only time will tell.
I’m surprised that no one has taken an evo psych perspective on post menopause women, in the animal kingdom menopause is a rare phenomenon (almost non existent) and the innate aversion to granny sex is almost universal.
Clearly nature intended a different purpose for mature women, given that they still have over a decade of productive life after menopause.
“I don’t particularly think old men’s wrinkles and age spots and bald heads are appealing either.”
Yes, Just Asking, but the huge difference is that the Grannies Gone Wild media phenomenon discussed in the previous post has no male parallel. None. “Eat Pray Love” and “Single in the Suburbs” or whatever the Hell it’s called have no male parallels either. “Sex and the City” has no male parallel either. Keep all that in mind.
Reblogged this on Breaking through illusions and commented:
Hamsterbatics.
Just Asking,
Dalrock was bashing the article. If you read an article about how average grandpa, with his age spots and bald head was having a great time with young women lining up for him, ( in an age of rampant grandpas divorcing for no real reason ) , you would also call crap on it, as well as make fun of a deluded old idiot.
Just Asking: But women aren’t shamed to like bald heads like men are shamed to accept old and fat women.
I do not believe we have thought through all of the costs to society of sparing peoples feelings by refusing to tell the truth even when it is unpleasant. There is the cost to employers of school and college leavers who think that they are God’s gift to their employer who ought to be thankful to the candidate that the candidate accepted the job offer and who feels s/he is being exploited even when they fail to generate sufficient profit in the first couple of years to warrant employing them, In my case this was an 18 year old who could not add, subtract multiply or divide but who wanted to work in accounts. The education system contributes mightily to this sense of being the centre of the universe.
It happens when appraisals at work fail to adversley criticise a persons performance and then lead to a surprise when hat soeone is canned. Employers afraid of a short-term bad reaction, especially from someone like the school leaver described above, contribute to the problem.
And the costs to society in the increased number of single person households due to hypergamy, both in the increase in the costs of property and in the increases in having effectively to have to do the same thing twice (two lots of coffee in the morning, two evening meals cooked, two homes being heated etc) have never been properly quantified AFAIK. So the politicians, instead of grasping the nettle and dealing with this problem, pander to these entitlement princesses, both male and female, to make the whole situation unmanageable and then wring their hands before prescribing more of the same to make it worse.
here’s a little gem for you guys
http://www.aol.com/video/mother-says-shes-lost-love-for-kids-husband/517687293/?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl24%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D276992
“While the point of the original post was the catastrophic fantasy being sold to women, there is also a valid point to make regarding the unseemliness of our elderly talking and acting in such an undignified manner.”
Many of our “elderly” were bernanakifieidd and butethxtted and e deoulsoed in desouled in teh fed’s desouling oprocess. lzzozololzoz think about all the “ministeresses” who now promote butthexthtand sodommy–somet8ing unthinkable a decade or so ago.
zlzozozozozo
Thanks 2 Dalrock for beaing a beacon amongst da rocks and shipwrecksz of a fiat empire in declinez.
For soem things never decline, and it is best to navigate by such entitiets entities zlozozozo
Not only do their prospects not decline, apparently they are even better than before! I did not know, because I have never been divorced, how delightful it is to be an aging divorcee. Men literally cannot keep their hands off you.
Why Dating And Men Are Better When You’re A Single Mom
@ssm
There are two problems with the material you have quoted, as I am sure you are aware. The first is that this is the sales pitch for a lie. The second that following it will blunt conscience and could put one’s eternal salvation in danger. But you’ld have more chance of demolishing the Rockies by butting them with your head than getting this message through to the majority of the HuffPo readers.
@ SSM – From that same article – apparently she doesn’t have to be practical this time and can just have sex with men that she finds attractive. She’s already had the beta provider, gotten the kids and the house, and now she doesn’t have to worry about those things any more and can just enjoy sexy men.
You were silly and looking for a husband and had an agenda! This time? Who cares!? Well, you care — about everything. About all those feelings and the touching and the joy and the thrill and that passion and the love. Love wasn’t this great last time, was it? Could it have gotten better? And yet you care about nothing. None of those things that were on your list. You have those things yourself — the kids and the house and the career. You start to see the spots in yourself that a man can fill. And you start to see men in different ways. Because you are different.
There are probably plenty of men willing to have no strings attached sex with a single mom. Anyway, I just checked the about section on her blog and apparently her husband left her while she was pregnant.
@sunshinemary
LOL! That article was hilarious! I have a comment there, but it’s predictably in moderation.
This is a family site for married men and ladies, so I try not to get too crass; but there is one thing that frivorced single moms are good for. Younger guys with no self confidence can generally pick these hoes up easily, game and bang them with little to no out-of-pocket cost. Then they can move up to quality women after practicing on the child-support whores. The key is refusing to get stuck in a rut and just get satisfied with pulling yesterday’s garbage out of the gutter.
Women like this (the Eat-Pray-Love set) usually are a little bit older and are usually very desperate (the original author calls this desperation “horny”, but we know what it actually means) so they are easy pickings. They have already proven they are not worthy of any commitment of time or energy, and they usually respond to crass pickup tactics well.
Best, Boxer
Act of kindness indeed. Someone should have told my childless, fat, spinster ex-wife all this, she wouldn’t have ended up so miserable and alone, and I wouldn’t have to pity her. But then you try to tell her anything and you’d have your head bit off.
That huff post article made my skin crawl. It reeked of evil.
I’d like to add another comment. The mother of one of my daughter’s friends recently blew up her marriage. Both this woman and the man with whom she cheated were on staff for a rather large church. The man was also married. Thus, two families were destroyed.
The church fired them both. The woman recently moved out of her husband’s house (they are not divorced yet) to live with this former assistant pastor, who is also still married. Having lost his job as a pastor, the man is now working a low wage job. This new adulterous union will surely not last very long.
The cheating woman came by our house not too long ago to pick up my daughter’s friend. I could sense that this woman was checking me out. It would not have been beyond her to try to destroy a third family. This woman, who is ostensibly religious, has all the markings of a psychopath. This is so sad. Her husband appears to be a decent guy, and her daughter is a good kid.
He left her when she was pregnant? Well, it begs the question: how much abuse do you think this mentally ill trainwreck of a woman put him through to get him to walk away from his own kid?
I would bet she made his life intolerable for years, and once the condom broke, she figured she had him good, with a guaranteed hostage, and she could step up the abuse to levels even she hadn’t dared try before. I’d also be interested in seeing a DNA test for that kid. All sorts of possibilities here.
Her posts on huffpo establish that she’s selfish to the point of being an absolute headcase. My sympathies to her child, her ex, and all others who are forced to dealing with her. I’m sure she’s a real peach.
“why dating and men are better when you’re a single mom”
Yeah! Suddenly, beta males with an income are SO HOT rather than a creepy annoyance to a girl on the go. With your expectations lowered to a sane level, you’re no longer thinking with your priceless vagina and actually perceive men as human beings. Revelation!
“He left her when she was pregnant? Well, it begs the question: how much abuse do you think this mentally ill trainwreck of a woman put him through to get him to walk away from his own kid?”
Well, it could be that she married a sociopath because he was “exciting.”
Single mums: great for blow-jobs, not mu….anything else
He left her when she was pregnant? Well, it begs the question: how much abuse do you think this mentally ill trainwreck of a woman put him through to get him to walk away from his own kid?
I would bet she made his life intolerable for years, and once the condom broke, she figured she had him good, with a guaranteed hostage, and she could step up the abuse to levels even she hadn’t dared try before. I’d also be interested in seeing a DNA test for that kid. All sorts of possibilities here.
Her posts on huffpo establish that she’s selfish to the point of being an absolute headcase. My sympathies to her child, her ex, and all others who are forced to dealing with her. I’m sure she’s a real peach.
She says her husband had a traumatic brain injury from falling off a cliff and then “changed” and left her in the about section of her blog. http://wealthysinglemommy.com.
Then on the blog there is an post called, “what if your failed marriage was really a success” where she says that she knew he wouldn’t be the last man that she loved while she was walking down the eisle. So yeah, clearly she’s not quite right in the head.
Mr. Dalrock linked to an article entitled Desperate Grandmas. It speaks of those who fight aging because their narcissistic selves will not gracefully accepts the laws of God’s nature and their own mortality. That being said, I’m a mid-50s guy who is also fighting aging through physical fitness, but hopefully for the right reasons. I believe that it is good to try to remain productive as long as we are here.
I recently spoke with a couple in their upper 50s who have a three-year old adopted child. Here, the older mother is choosing not to give into aging prematurely. Not because she wants to gratify herself like the depraved grannies gone wild. Instead, she wants to give and nurture. There are still a few good and honorable women left.
From the other post.
I was Just Asking — hence the name.
Meh. A especially dishonest way of expressing your opinion. If you have something to say, you can say it directly (and if some other people think you are wrong, they can directly say you are wrong). This is a free blog.
Instead of saying your opinion in an honest and straight manner (“I think you should not criticize grandpa and grandma having sex: it’s none your business”), you recur to a dishonest question (“What is the problem with sexy grandma and sexy grandpa having sex? Why you are so fixated on this thing that is not part of your life?”). This question is dishonest because it is not meant to ask but to state an opinion in a underhanded way and to shame people who do not agree with you (“You are too fixated”) – shaming language.
So when you are called on it, you can say “I was only asking” so you don’t have to assume responsibility the things you say (plausible deniability). You ring the bell and run like hell.
You are not Just Asking. You are Just Stating Things in a Dishonest Way.
Maybe you think that you are very smart because of this, but her we know this kind of passive-aggressive cheap tricks very well.
I came across this new manosphere blog and thought it was so good I wanted to promote it:
http://misterinfinite.com/
Yes, Just Asking, but the huge difference is that the Grannies Gone Wild media phenomenon discussed in the previous post has no male parallel. None. “Eat Pray Love” and “Single in the Suburbs” or whatever the Hell it’s called have no male parallels either. “Sex and the City” has no male parallel either. Keep all that in mind.
Grumpy Old Men?
I think it’s totally good. The woman should ask herself, when divorcing, would I be happier to never marry again, than to say with my husband.
If the answer to that is yes, and it was in my mothers case, then certainly something is rather wrong in that marriage.
“Eat Pray Love” and “Single in the Suburbs” or whatever the Hell it’s called have no male parallels either. “Sex and the City” has no male parallel either.
I disagree with this. There are many parallels, but they are restricted to caricatures of gay men. Popular culture suggests that it’s OK to be a narcissistic piece of shit if you’re a man, with that caveat that you must only use and abuse other men. Women are off limits.
Most of the gay dudes I know find this very offensive, and will often speak at length (but only in private) about how disgusting it is that they are painted as acting like women in their relationships.
She says her husband had a traumatic brain injury from falling off a cliff and then “changed” and left her in the about section of her blog.
Older men with kids who engage in high risk activities till they nearly die…. want to die.
Yeah, she was great.
@T
She says her husband had a traumatic brain injury… and left her in the about section of her blog.
This man has no decency, just leaving his wife in a place like that.
It seems that every other middle aged female online dating profile I read announces that she doesn’t want a one night stand, someone looking for just sex, a friend with benefits, a short term fling and so on. This has to be a problem for these older women or there wouldn’t be so many stating this. I’ve had women on these sites brag to me that they can have a date every week if they want to but I think they discover after awhile that most of the guys meeting them just want something short term or, if they do want something longer term, it takes the form of being part of his harem or the guy wanting something long term is of a lot lower quality than what she expected or is willing to accept. When they realize this, in their disillusionment they then drop off the internet dating site and resign themselves to a life revolving around church and social activities with other women their age, children and grandchildren, cats and celibacy.
Wrong Mark, its not a sign that “this is a problem for these older ladies”. Those words appear on female dating site profiles ubiquitously, I used to refer to it as the cyber chastity belt, and it generally was coupled with “my kid comes first”. Its just another layer of the same denial that sends these ladies into this mess in the first place, and over developed notion of her awesome awesomeness. They actually WANT that to be the problem, hence the faux resistance.
The contradiction between the women of the developed world being upset at the lack of commitment offered by men, and the very public encouraging of women to become divorcees to the point of telling them they’re still sexy in their twilight years is the most pure form of hypocrisy one could ask for.
Just Asking says:
March 1, 2013 at 8:45 pm
I don’t particularly think old men’s wrinkles and age spots and bald heads are appealing either. But I don’t dedicate hours of my life bashing them on the internet.
I’m sorry, I thought this was a BLOG… you know, a place where perfect strangers can have an unfiltered conversation about, you know, ANYTHING, with the convenience of anonymity.
If this forum is so unsettling to you, here’s a guy type idea…LEAVE!
Boxer
You nailed about the single moms. Good sex game practice for a young man. Child support whores are for booty calls and nothing else. You get tired of having sex with them or they decide they want”more” out of the relationship tell them there are hella guys out there that would love to tap that big ole 35 year old ass. And then move. A single man can have a hell of a lot of fun with todays worthless sluts as long as he undrstands there are no wives to be had.
the guy wanting something long term is of a lot lower quality than what she expected or is willing to accept
I have noticed that their desires often seem very high. Why are they so unrealistic?
Boxer
You nailed about the single moms. Good sex game practice for a young man. Child support whores are for booty calls and nothing else. You get tired of having sex with them or they decide they want”more” out of the relationship tell them there are hella guys out there that would love to tap that big ole 35 year old ass. And then move. A single man can have a hell of a lot of fun with todays worthless sluts as long as he undrstands there are no wives to be had.
[Begins the slow clap]
Just under the roaring applause you can hear him say:
“The bible should have specified not only should women not talk in church,but that they should not talk.
Ifeth a wymyn speaketh removeth her tongue,ifeth she typeth,removeth her fingers.
No, No, I can’t believe you guys STILL don’t get this. If a 40 something woman wants a committed man, she has to be SELFISH and think of HERSELF FIRST. This is a proven strategy that just WORKS EVERY TIME. Ask Bobbi. This is one feisty 47 year old who has her finger on the pulse and her ovaries in a jar. You’re just not dating like grown-ups (H/T Cappy).
http://datelikeagrownup.com/training/ggno/
BTW. Anyone want to sign up with Bobbi as an aspirational 40 something woman? I know you’re out there.
The huff post article is a prime example of the innate female desire to try trading up, which in turn is an innate component of hypergamy.
Not only do their prospects not decline, apparently they are even better than before! I did not know, because I have never been divorced, how delightful it is to be an aging divorcee. Men literally cannot keep their hands off you.
SSM, I dare say that your best bet is with your husband.
Empathologism
I can’t speak for other women on dating sites but I can confirm that many men over 40 really don’t want to get into a serious relationship. Many are recovering from divorce and simply don’t want to risk another failed marriage. Fair enough. Perfectly understandable but what do you suggest those women who do want relationships do about it?
Grumpy old men teehee :). Good one empath. There’s enough sour grapes around here to start a whinery.
what do you suggest those women who do want relationships do about it
Relationships, as they are defined by females, were only possible under the benevolent dictatorship of patriarchy. Men formed families and provided for them because if they didn’t, they’d starve. Read some 19th century novels for what life was like for men who didn’t marry. Boo Radley is a good example. My father told me that when he was young, businesses openly advertised “For Married Men Only” in the want ads, and even entry level decent jobs were held open for married men. If you were from a very wealthy family or inclined to be a hobo, you could be a playa. Otherwise, you were expected to get married and stay married until death, with very few exceptions.
With that in mind, women should accept the fact that the old days are over. Most of us men don’t want to marry ourselves to used up, banged out women who have had more cocks than a Nevada prostitute, beginning at age 14, and slave away working while she sits around complaining for the rest of our lives. Lots of people like to bash feminists, but I am personally grateful for the work they did. They liberated me and those like me, and set you and those like you into the work force, to shift for yourselves.
My advice to women is therefore the same advice I’d give to a young man. The difference is that a young man would take the advice. Even so: You should get as much education as you can, learn something rigorous (something that uses calculus, for example) and get a career. After you have established yourself, then you can start playing at having relationships and traveling.
Best, Boxer
“I have noticed that their desires often seem very high. Why are they so unrealistic?”
It’s an inflated ego issue. They see their value as higher than it actually is. So they see the men who are in reality equal to them as lower than them. At the same time, they make a futile attempt to try to get a male who they mistakenly think is their equal but in reality is higher than them into a long term committed relationship. To admit that these higher quality men aren’t their equals would require them to admit to themselves that their value isn’t as high as they think it is. Women have always had this tendency but societal changes have made it worse. The culture doesn’t reign in their over reaching; it encourages it. And if wasting their time on men who won’t commit to them while spurning the men who would leads to an impoverished old age living alone, there’s always the welfare state to substitute as economic provider, a role that in earlier eras was performed by a husband. Instead of suffering from irrational behavior, this cushioning of the blow encourages it.
What do I suggest woman do about it? Become better, more appealing women and out compete the competition. Which is what most men have to do every day at every level on every issues
Funny story here
I was getting my hair done yesterday sitting next to a late thirtyish early fortyish woman who was bleating about the fact that she was still unmarried talking about a recent date giving the hairstylist all the details critiquing every detail of his behavior as though she was an 18 year old prom princess with unlimited options in men. It sounded out of place to hear this kind of talk coming from such an over the hill women. As she went on and on about her date for 65 minutes the more I realized this women actually had near zero options – but was taking a rare chance at a date to pretend she was still valuable as she harped on it nonstop.
“Perfectly understandable but what do you suggest those women who do want relationships do about it?”
Look for men who make 1/3 as much as you do, so the men are guaranteed Alimony when you frivorce. They might even make it the full 10 years like Kobe’s wife did, to maxx out their social security payment. Or keep looking for the ones that make more than you but haven’t been schooled in the alimony/frivorce scam. Oh right, they don’t exist anymore.
Thank you for the replies and suggestions.
Out compete the competition – may I ask how when most of the competition appears willing to accept these FWB type “relationships”? Just keep becoming better?
Michael,
Getting your hair done?
Tell me you are a woman, or you were at a legitimate barber.
@Claire:
Learn to “put away the gun”. Divorce laws, being what they are, are pretty much a gun at a man’s entire life. When he’s 40 and single, he’s likely divorced, meaning he’s had much of his life ruined. It’s a matter of, for a woman that age, being “better” than the competition at the relationship side of things: so be willing to sign away everything that might benefit you, in the finance sense, in a pre-nup. And mean it.
The willingness alone, and the willingness to follow through on that, will do most of the job itself. Then work to make sure it never becomes an issue.
Reading the commentary here is fascinating, yet depressing. Too many women have fallen for feminism, a category of cultural marxism. Women at large are not the architects of this system, but are dumb followers. The architects are malevolent individuals who wish to destroy our society. And, unfortunately, they are succeeding.
Claire, yep keep getting better and out compete the competition. Make yourself of such high value good men will eschew things like fwb with other women to be with you. Most men will if there is a good return on their investment. Other men have made posts on girl game. Better advice than I could ever give. But it’s all general info kind of stuff. You would have to work out the details, find someone to give you the possibly unpleasant truth out of love etc etc. Might have to change locations, reevaluate your own place in the smp/ mmp, reevaluate what kind of man you can pull and think about the kinds of men you find attractive. Maybe your a better match for some types then others? Have a plan. Do women have plans or is that a man trait?
I understand current trends like fwb puts other ladies in a bind, and I am not being dismissive of your situation. However, work harder and smarter or give up are the only options most folks have in life.
Realize there is a point of diminishing returns on your effort and that the things your friends say you should do is not necessarily what men want in a woman.
Or you could move to a military town.
@Claire
Looking at your original comment upthread I’m not sure this is what you are looking for, but Vox has a post up today on Alpha Game responding to a letter from a 32 year old woman on finding a husband. I wrote a response to a different woman on the same basic topic two years ago, and surprisingly it is the third most visited post today.
Assuming you are not looking for marriage and instead are looking for a “relationship”, my advice would be similar. Not all 40 something men are looking for FWBs. The men who are doing that are good at playing the dating game. There are other men who have little interest in playing the field, even if they don’t want to marry. These are the men you should be focused on, and they come with two challenges:
1) They aren’t able to generate the instant attraction the players can generate, and they are very likely at least somewhat less attractive overall. However, if you are realistic in your own prospects you should be able to find some of them attractive, and you only need to find one.
2) They aren’t the men who are footing what I call the “searching costs”. This means you will have to bear more of the cost to find them, as they might not even be actively looking. The good side here is once you find him he also isn’t looking for that next woman to jump into a relationship with. So long as you aren’t looking to jump into something new either these kinds of relationships tend to be pretty stable.
I think the change in searching costs is the hardest part for women to get past. Women start off as the rock stars of the dating world. Men they don’t know are willing to buy them drinks and/or meals and pay to entertain them just for the opportunity to try to convince her to date them. After years of this it is difficult to accept that it isn’t the permanent natural order of things. To go from that experience to having to do more to actively seek out men has to be a huge shock.
@Robert
OOOOO! Who are these malevolent, diabolical individuals? The Jooz? The Illuminati? Whose necks do we have to stretch?
At age 17 or maybe 23, guys have to give the best girls great dates in order for a chance at a little bit of sex.
At the other end of the line, the karma tables are reversed, and at about upper thirties and above the gals have to give the best men great sex in order for a chance at a little bit of a date.
For women who are peri- or post-menopausal, they should probably bring along a hot young pro. It depends on how good a sport they want to be.
As this is really the first culture on the planet to have vast numbers of single unattached older women (plus a reservoir of those who could be), it’s taken some time to figure this out, as their brains are basically wired as if they were going to be 20 forever. -Women during the stone age stood a good chance of dying during childbirth before age 25, and few of either sex made it much past 30 in any event.
@Claire
Well, Claire, Australia worried about this problem among its older female population. And their proposed solution was for older women to become lesbians.
http://fathersforlife.org/families/lesbianismforcrones.htm
Claire
My issue isnt even about whether they want relationships or not (the men). Its about the effect the cyber chastity belt language has.
Frankly, these days, the divorced men are not only blanching from being jettisoned, they are blanching at having likely lived years prior to the divorce in a sexual vacuum, with wife scooting up her night shirt in the dark once a month to “give him some sex” unenthusiastically, if he was lucky. So, the fact the a woman writes that she is NOT looking for sex doesn’t communicate the virtue she hopes it does, it screams “potential sexual desert” if an LTR/marriage resulted.
Even the man who is after a monogamous relationship, or marriage will be put off by the fact that some woman felt the need to wear some anti-sexual thing on her sleeve. This is completely a different thing than if, once dating, she holds him off for sex. Some men will bail, so be it, but its a different thing to be held off then it is to be WARNED.
If anything the women should be funny and open in the ads, not list off must haves and no way in hell am I gonna type stuff.
To: asinusspinasmasticans
Instead of being a smartass, do some research on cultural marxism, its history and development.
Out compete the competition – may I ask how when most of the competition appears willing to accept these FWB type “relationships”? Just keep becoming better?
Ah. This is a systemic issue, one women have brought on themselves, even you are likely partly to blame because of the place you hold on the team. By looking the other way, by watching women dump husbands in frivorce, by being understanding and not speaking straight at and to other women who were busy creating the population of lonely wenches who will rut on demand just to have a man in their room with some regularity, you have contributed to the problem. Women do not hold each other to account. Period. Heck, the blog called “Sis” which is ostensibly a pro marriage women’s blog had a comment this weekend by a woman named Vonnie, right amidst a thread about marriage commitment where Vonnie states “I believe there has to be some happiness ultimately God wants us to be happy”….(not exact quote) and not a single woman posting around her screamed NO. That is not right! You are wrong, and stop thinking and saying that. Her rationale is THE rationale that left those men you want to date afraid of anything BUT a ONS. Own it and deal with it.
By supporting churches that preach at and to men and coddle women, by adopting a view of biblical marriage that maximizes the feelings of female empowerment and moral supremacy, the church, and you if you are in it, have contributed to the mess. You have to work, uncomfortably, to fix it because you are both a cause and a victim of it. Likely you will, however, fixate on the victim hood and continue to support the causal factors. If you divorced a man that was not cheating with a woman or beating you physically, you directly contributed numerically to the problem and then to expect a man to come along and plop into the place you made a vacancy in is folly.
Older women urged to become lesbians?
Now that is a tough idea to strap on
@Robert
Cultural Marxism sounds like something of an oxymoron to me, given that Marx taught that culture was a reflection of class interest rather than a tool for subverting it.
If you are talking about people like Ernst Bloch and Herbert Marcuse, you may want to entertain the Null Hypothesis: These people are better at diffusing their ideas than whoever you are shilling for, but that doesn’t make them malevolent.
To: asinusspinasmasticans
So I take it that you are a cultural marxist. You have studied the cultural marxists, but like a good disciple, you deny the existence of the movement. Economic marxists pit economic groups against one another. Cultural marxists, such as those you support and believe in, pit the sexes and races against one another.
Robert says:
March 4, 2013 at 12:33 pm
@ asinusspinasmasticans
Robert, we watch as society crumbles right before our eyes and there are those like your critic who dirty the water further. It is becoming obvious that you are either on team good or team evil, the gray areas are becoming black and white.
Ephesians 6:12
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
Or in this case, low places.
Ignore him Robert, those open to understand you, will.
I think the advice for older women is the same for any woman wanting to find an older man….be nice, as attractive as you can be and be sexually engaged in the relationship. Chances are you aren’t going to have kids, so when it comes right down to it the relationship becomes about sex and individual development and growth with a confidant and lover at your side.
Thanks Buck. I like your quote from Ephesians. The architect of cultural marxism is not “the Jooz or the Illuminati” as the critic would say. But as you indicate, the true architect is Satan, himself.
Cheating & beating are not the only valid reasons for divorce – how about constantly putting off children? Refusing for over a year to attend counselling? Or is that just my hamster speaking…
Clair, is that a serious question?
Putting off children is a shit test result, because when a woman says “he doesnt spend enough time with the children”….what is enough time? And the utter stupidity of “he wont spend time with the kids so I am gonna kick him out” is indeed hamster on crack.
His refusing to attend counseling is an excellent choice on his part, counseling is little more than adding someone else to the berating about the time with the kids, and other sundrey, ever changing, ill defined, nebulous, ridiculous emotional pandering she is demanding.
Do your homework. counseling is statistically associated with a one way ticket to family court, or the only other outcome likely is a fully supplicated man, which she will then not be attracted to and wont have sex with him, and the circle is complete, hell in marriage, or hell in the efficiency apartment.
If your question was serious, the men you seek need be warned.
Oh, and yes, those are the only valid reasons for divorce. Period.
The demand for counseling could be the hamster squeaking. As has been shown repeatedly, “counseling” is frequently a euphemism for husband denunciation sessions in which he is exhorted to submit and scurry about his wife with his tail between his legs.
And the question remains, Why? Why are there woman out there that push other women to divorce? Jealousy?
My last counselling session, we go in and talk for a few hours. Finally the dude demands that I apologize for all the horrible screw ups I’ve made as a husband– after all, the husband’s head of the house… my marriage problems can all be laid at the door of my bad leadership.
I said that we don’t have problems because I won’t apologize– rather, my wife has rejected me due to loss of attraction. No one will hold her accountable to do anything other than follow the whims of her feeeeeelings. I’ve followed the laundry list of changes that previous counselors have put to me to no effect. The root of my marriage problems is my wife’s *choice* to turn her back on our covenant wherever it suits her. And as to the leadership dig, the bible doesn’t tell me to lead… it says for my wife to submit. Also… there can be no leadership without requisite authority– and male authority of any kind is repugnant in this culture.
This did not go over well. The counselor berated me for hours, cutting me down in front of my wife. He then pulled her aside, told her that I wasn’t a Christian and that her only recourse now was to find a church that would help her Matthew 18 me.
@Some Guy: Dude, if you have screwed up some stuff (and who among us hasn’t) and you haven’t apologized for it, apologize. You don’t get a pass because she’s screwing up too and won’t apologize for it. And the idea that the Bible only tells her to submit and doesn’t tell you to lead is a dodge. Again, you don’t get a pass because she’s not submitting.
Having said that, it is absolutely a two-way street and the counselor should be holding her accountable too. And she’s eligible for Matthew 18 treatment as well. She doesn’t get a pass on submitting or being sexually available or anything else because she doesn’t like how you’re leading. To the extent she’s saying or the counselor is saying that she does get a pass, they’re flat wrong.
Sorry about the mess, man. I pray God works a miracle for you. It does happen.
Counselling is largely a waste. It is hard to believe I ever had any faith in it. It is good only for satirising:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/boyfriend-forced-to-express-secondhand-outrage,31520/
David J….you made straw man.
It disturbs me when I realize I used to see things the way you do, and did many of us here.
I hope you see things before you are forced to, life gets better and divorce may be less likely then. Your way is like the road to good intentions
And the question remains, Why? Why are there woman out there that push other women to divorce? Jealousy?
Of course not.
Its empowering to know that they too can do so if they wanna, and get a cheering section to go along with it
I’ll give Claire a little bit of a bone….if her question is the man being purposefully unwilling to give his wife a child (ie refuse to get her pregnant) then I would agree that this would be grounds for divorce. Children are one of the main reasons for marriage, and to be willfully deceived and/or denied children by your spouse’s actions is a huge breach of the marriage contract.
It would also go without saying that if the abuse the spouse metes out is toward the children, and not the mate, then the non-abusive spouse would also be right to divorce their spouse to protect the children.
Counseling is a mixed bag. It really depends on the Counselor. Individual, Male, Christian, Marriage and Family Therapy Licensed, and “Red Pill” (look for resources by Schnarch, Friedman, and concentration on concepts like differentiation and self improvement) has worked well for me.
Couples counseling with a local female counselor was a disaster. Even after describing the abuse of myself and our former foster children, providing the arrest reports, providing the diagnosis of BPD (which the counselor didn’t want to read because me having that might be a HIPPA violation), the proof of her homosexual adultery (confessing journals and letters to said woman)…..when *I* tried one last time to get her to hold up even a small portion of her side of the marriage contract, I was asked to read “His Needs, Her Needs” and basically court my wife all over again. I needed to take my now ex-wife on a date and be romantic with her again.
To give you the compare and contrast, almost a year before I actually filed for divorce, my male counselor told me I would most likely be divorcing my wife after I told him about the adultery. He already knew about the spouse/child abuse…so his advice was to get physically, mentally and spiritually strong as possible for the fight. I never got that frankness from the female counselor….just date her and romance her….it is all about you and how you treat her…..
empath…
Counseling is indeed all but the one-way ticket to divorce court. Absolutely no good can come of it whatsoever. Marriages that survive intervention by the helping professions do so in spite of not because of the ‘help’.
The premarital counselling we had was blue pill soaked. It was all about what I had to do to make the marriage work. Thankfully the wife agreed with me it was largely a required formality.
@Claire
Be something that a man of quality values.
“how about constantly putting off children?”
An orthodox jew might consider that possible grounds based loosely on Generis 38 and Onan’s failure to provide children for his deceased brother’s wife. But I would argue that no longer applies under the NT. Sermon on the mount in Matt 5 talks only about adultery as grounds for divorce, and even then divorce seemingly granted on a reluctant basis.
“Refusing for over a year to attend counselling?”
Insufficient material to assess. Given the feminist bent of most counselling, the prescription of supplicating behaviour and the normal loss of attraction that results, I really can’t see the point.
The implication of Matt 18:15 is that if a brother won’t listen to “reason”, the counsel of wise church men will set him straight, or he will be expelled form the fellowship. It says nothing about liberty to divorce because the church classifies one spouse as “unbelieving” (1 Cor 7:14).
.if her question is the man being purposefully unwilling to give his wife a child (ie refuse to get her pregnant) then I would agree that this would be grounds for divorce. Children are one of the main reasons for marriage, and to be willfully deceived and/or denied children by your spouse’s actions is a huge breach of the marriage contract.
It would also go without saying that if the abuse the spouse metes out is toward the children, and not the mate, then the non-abusive spouse would also be right to divorce their spouse to protect the children.
You didnt give her a bone, you created an entirely different scenario that has no relationship to anything she said, and then allowed her to glom onto that as if its relevant. You actually ran her hamster FOR her, that is exactly the type of misdirection and dissembling that frames the hamsters thought process.
Oh….as is “it depends on the counselor”….NACALT
Sorry- at work. Essentially refusal to have children. His own mother after speaking to him without success suggested I simply “forget” my pill. I don’t think dishonesty is a good basis for any relationship let alone marriage and decided against that path.
Emp, just watching my older brothers marriage disintegrate. His wife has been moving with a more divorced crowd lately. Suddenly she realizes that he doesn’t make her happy enough anymore. Coincidental? I don’t think so.
I think the best tactic is to befriend other couples that show a strong relationship towards each other. The re-enforcement of other happy couples can play an important role on a womans’ hamster.
“Essentially refusal to have children.”
On what grounds? Financial? Emotional? Spiritual? More info required . . .
Plus, has a man spoken to him to enable honest voicing of his concerns?
Lauren Silberman becomes the first woman to try out for an NFL team.
And despite this write up from nfl.com, women everywhere can now jump with joy over one more barrier of equality that has now been broken down.
“FLORHAM PARK, N.J. — After the two pathetic and pitiful pseudo-kickoffs, after the stubborn refusal to say how far she’d ever actually kicked a football, Lauren Silberman still could have salvaged her day. (The first kick off went 19 yards)
She could have looked at the reporters from the 30-odd media outlets gathered at the New York Jets’ facility, stared straight at the 20 television cameras filming this regional scouting combine and said:
“The NFL opened this amazing door for me. I am a young entrepreneur. I have created a product geared toward professional athletes and I would be a lousy businesswoman if I didn’t seize this once-in-a-lifetime platform.”
But oh no, she didn’t say that. She didn’t even come close. She insisted she’d trained and over-trained, but she wouldn’t say when exactly she first kicked a football. She swore she was better than what she showed Sunday, but wouldn’t offer any anecdotal evidence to even suggest that. She crowed that she had done this as an inspiration to women, but didn’t offer homage to any female athlete who has not only appeared but achieved in a hitherto man’s sport.”
Now, I know that the more cynical of you are right now saying that even today at the supermarket you saw 4 or 5 women that could easily pass for offensive linemen and were about a Krispy Kreme away from weighing 310, but we should suppress any snide remarks to celebrate with our sisters on this day of accomplishment and barrier busting.
You Go Gurl.
@empath: “David J….you made straw man.
It disturbs me when I realize I used to see things the way you do, and did many of us here.
I hope you see things before you are forced to, life gets better and divorce may be less likely then. Your way is like the road to good intentions.”
What straw man? IF the husband has screwed up and IF he’s never apologized for it, he should apologize for it regardless of what his wife has done or failed to do. In doing so, he in no way lets her off the hook for her misbehavior. Nothing in what I’m saying is non-red-pill.
As for seeing things before being forced to — too late. See my previous exchange with Some Guy upthread (March 1 at 4:15 p.m.).
Leo G
has some good advice on the subject. Women are herd creatures and they will follow the herd. All it takes is for some actress or any popular culture to start talking benefits of staying married and womens attitude and trends will change. A woman hangs around women in long term marriage she will stay married.
I’m glad to apologize for specific things I’ve done wrong, but I will not pretend that I am some sort of unholy combination of Archie Bunker and Homer Simpson just for the sake of some lame counselling session.
The problem is, that according to their ideology, I’m wrong by default. My wife could have shut down due to health issues, but there is *zero* energy invested in exploring that. (“Wait… did you say that she married a dude…? *That’s the problem right there!”) My wife could be had problems bonding with me due to her previous sex history, but it would be unthinkable to dredge that up and hash that out.
No, if we’re going into counseling I want to talk about my wife’s point blank refusal to love or respect me in any way. I can “work on myself” all day and it won’t change that. But the idea that a woman can arbitrarily wrong her husband… and actually, you know, be in the wrong… that’s just inconceivable to the therapy crowd.
I’m not going to apologize when I’m wrong by default.
In a Christian marriage, the burden is on the spouse refusing to have children not the spouse wanting them. If a spouse won’t come clean with why they won’t have children, it’s not up to the wronged spouse to force it out of them. Until they are shown to have a grave reason why they are refusing, their refusal is prima facie evidence of an invalid marital vow.
** That’s my understanding of traditional Christian dogma on the matter.
What straw man?
The presumption that the order of operations is as follows is telling
man screws up
woman is hurt
man wont apologize
woman rightly and understandably then demands counseling
man still refuses to apologize
There was never an assertion that the man refused to apologize….hence, that is the straw man
The presumption of the scenario laid out above is a sort of straw man
** That’s my understanding of traditional Christian dogma on the matter.
Not really correct. The child issue is very tough, especially if utterly intractable. But we do not have even close to enough info to assume that. Read one way “putting off children” is a sign that he WILL ultimately have children and the disagreement is one of impatience. I cant say thats the case, nor can we say it isnt.
Off topic, but I thought this might be of interest to the blog admins…
Masturbation & Sex lectures held in chapel:
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/12730
It’d be interesting to get the religious peeps to comment on this. If I were a Christian (likewise if I were a Jew, Muslim or whatever) I’d be deeply offended by having a place devoted to higher thought and contemplation hijacked for use by crass sex-positive loonies. A time and place for everything, you know?
It’s status as a house of worship is somewhat adulterated. It’s a “college chapel.” It’s probably been used countless times for other crass purposes. They’ll probably have a BDSM exhibition there and then give fisting and sodomy lessons next month. Most college “chaplains” are some kind of Unitarian Universalist cleric with rainbow vestments and a same-sex spouse.
It is important to remember that this deflation isn’t an act of cruelty; it is in fact an act of kindness.
The woman in question seemed to gain from the deflation, so I’d say it was a good thing. If she hadn’t it would simply have been amusing.
Perhaps, but that doesn’t negate my point that when one spouse wants children and the other doesn’t, the spouse that does not is the one under scrutiny in a Christian marriage. If the roles were reversed this would not be controversial here.
If they are using abortifacents that’s another mark against them.
Mike you are incorrect about two things
One, there is no controversy here that has directly to do with whether they put off kids. The issue is about forcing counseling then a divorce.
Second, no, the issue would be the same from a Christian perspective regardless who wants or doesnt want what. Im not saying there is a pat Christian answer fro either, I’m saying that there is NOT a pat Christian answer or position as you seem to assume is the case as some sort of doctrine. Whether said doctrine could be gleaned from scripture isn’t even what I’m talking about, its your idea that in the church, among Christians, there is some built in default on this. There is not.
I agree with Durism as to the issue with the chapel. Though generally such displays should create discomfort for believers, that its held in a particular building, and especially on a campus, sadly doesn’t make the radar.
Well, not so fast. It certainly will among churchians who love to gnash teeth over the facade of a social issue while not uttering a peep about family destruction. This would indeed be low fruit for the boycott prone crowd.
@empath: You’re reading into what I said what Churchians say, but that’s not what I actually said. Believe me, I know better than the straw man you thought I was erecting.
@Some Guy: I appreciate the clarification, and with that clarification, I agree with you 100%.
JustAsking said: “I don’t particularly think old men’s wrinkles and age spots and bald heads are appealing either. But I don’t dedicate hours of my life bashing them on the internet.”
That’s probably because they don’t devote hours of their life trying to minimize your career prospects,negate your social life,restrict you from partaking in stereotypically feminine activities or just generally make your life miserable.
You’re complaining about men on the internet bashing slutty grandmas,men have had to deal with the Temperance movement,the gun control movement,the Junior Anti-Sex League….errr, anti-pornography movement, and radical lesbians wrecking marriage for straight males. Please illustrate how any amount of MRA bashing of any group of women on the internet compares to having the opposite sex pass a constitutional amendment to make your favorite pastime illegal just because they don’t enjoy engaging in it. While you do, I want you to imagine how you’d feel if men made it a felony for you ladies to bitch about your husbands all the time with one another just because we don’t engage in spouse-bashing behind your backs.
That’s probably because they don’t devote hours of their life trying to minimize your career prospects,negate your social life,restrict you from partaking in stereotypically feminine activities or just generally make your life miserable.
I was referring only to the “bashing” someone for being old — making fun of how they look. No, that doesn’t compare to what you have listed — where did I say it did. I was referring ONLY to bashing how someone else looks and making fun of someone for it. How does doing so improve career prospects, help social life, or keep anyone from partaking of whatever activities they so choose. Maybe it’s just a way to vent about how your (not you personally) have a miserable life —
>>That’s probably because they don’t devote hours of their life trying to minimize your career prospects,negate your social life,restrict you from partaking in stereotypically feminine activities or just generally make your life miserable.
Best comment on the thread!
Claire, I remembe some years ago I was home during the day for some reason. Oprah introduced some really hot women from all ethnic groups. She asked them what their issue was, and all of them said men just didn’t want to make a committment.
Then, she showed a chubby woman, couldn’t possibly be over a 5 or 6. And, standing next to her was a man, probably a 7 or 8. They both had big smiles on their faces.
She asked the man why he decided to marry her. He said he was dating around, and nobody interested him at all. One day, the woman, now hiw wife, knocked on his door. When he opened the door, she came in with a large picnic basket, and set up a large cloth on his floor, and supplied everything for a picnic, right there on the carpet.
He dated a few other women, then dumped them all, and started dating her exclusively, and in a few months asked her to marry him.
Oprah asked, “What about that picnic caused you to be interested in her?”
His answer was beyond priceless. “That was the first time any woman ever did anything for me.”
I have told this tale to a number of women over the years, and they all throw tantrums. They apparently want a man, but not badly enough to actually do anything for him.
I sort of hate to disclose this tale, because there will be plenty of narcissistic princesses who do something for a man just long enough to take all his stuff from him when they divorce him.
They are not just bashing someone for only being old. They are bashing and insulting certain elderly people because they believe those elderly people to be adherents or subscribers to certain variants of feminism. And it is feminism and other related ideologies that men rightfully blame for minimizing their career prospects, negating their social lives, and restricting them from partaking in masculine activities that feminists condemn as regressive. Therefore, some men take delight in seeing some feminists or crypto-feminists suffering an inglorious situation.
“Maybe it’s just a way to vent about how your (not you personally) have a miserable life –”
No. I doubt it. What you don’t get is that while old ladies slutting it up looks “fabulous” to you,and perhaps something to be jealous of, to us it looks like a 50 year old man sitting around in a blanket and pillow “fort”,in Superman footie pajamas,playing Pokemon next to all his Hot Wheels and Star Wars action figures,i.e., very,very sad.
Durasim is correct. What the guys are doing is attacking feminism wherever they find it, whether in the “grrl power” culture of twenty-something women, in the cougarism of 40 year old women, or in the self-deluded sluttery of senior citizen feminists. To do otherwise would be unfairly discriminatory,in my opinion.
What you don’t get is that while old ladies slutting it up looks “fabulous” to you,and perhaps something to be jealous of, to us it looks like a 50 year old man sitting around in a blanket and pillow “fort”,in Superman footie pajamas,playing Pokemon next to all his Hot Wheels and Star Wars action figures,i.e., very,very sad.
But I suppose it’s just fine for 50 year old men to “slut it up”. Then would it be okay for 50 year old women to play with Barbie Dolls. Actually both genders could play with Hot Wheels and Barbie Dolls and then slut it up. (This was meant to be a joke)
Many men of 50 and beyond do try to “slut it up.” They’re called “aging lotharios” or “dirty old men” and are frequently the object of scorn and derision. And feminists usually condemn such men as disgusting rapists.
Durasim: “…Therefore, some men take delight in seeing some feminists or crypto-feminists suffering an inglorious situation.”
The concept is called “schadenfreude”, and it is especially delightful when we men see how feminists and their adherents are now starting to suffer the consequences of their own misandric beliefs, and the from the results of the anti-male laws, regulations, and policies which they themselves created.
Women thought that the ‘marriage strike’ is bad? It’s just the start.
Yes, I know and the term is applicable, but I was hesistant to use it. Schadenfreude often has a bad connotation, and the word does not distinguish whether the misfortune of the other person you enjoy witnessing is deserved or not. Sometimes schadenfreude is interpeted as some kind of wanton or sadistic feeling, like taking joy in seeing someone suffer simply because you were jealous of that person, even though the person had not done anything bad or wrong. I think that kind of feeling is morally different from the “schadenfreude” that one feels when you see a person receive the “just deserts” of their bad actions and decisions.
Another call for the church to “man up” for all those poor little single moms:
http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/jennifer-maggio/single-moms-and-the-church.html
WOW! Your post hit it right on the head! Deflation?? I think you just gave them a dose of reality! you just knocked them off their high pedestal! I mean really? Do women really believing this crap they see on TV? They are really more messed up than i thought! Great Post Dalrock!
Hi my name Louie I’m a65yo guy there too many negative people in our society & country i don’t see anything wrong with elderly older women enjoy their lives it’s the year 2014, i personally think women of my age& younger not interesting just aroggent, to me there nothing more attractive and sexy than a grey hair wrinkled elderly women also a huge turn on i may be 56yo but I fancy and I ‘m attracted to women aged 69plus