Business Insider has a new article today titled How To Know If You Have The New Condition Called ‘Relationship OCD’. The article suggests the problem is rare, but what they are describing sounds like a clinical version of something I call the whispers, something our culture bombards women with on a daily basis. Here is how Wikipedia describes the symptoms of what it calls Relationship Centered ROCD:
A person may continuously doubt whether they love their partner, whether their relationship is the “right” relationship or whether their partner “really” loves them.[6] Even when they know they love someone or that someone loves them, they constantly check and reassure themselves that it is the right feeling. When they attempt to end the relationship, they are overwhelmed with anxiety. Staying in the relationship, however, they are haunted by continuous doubts regarding the relationship.
Then there are the Partner Focused ROCD symptoms:
Another form of ROCD includes preoccupation, checking, and reassurance seeking behaviors relating to the partner’s perceived flaws.[7] Instead of finding good in their partner, they are constantly focused on their shortcomings. They often exaggerate these “flaws” and use them to prove the relationship is fundamentally bad. The fact that they are unable to concentrate on anything but their partner’s flaws causes the sufferer great anxiety, and often leads to a strained relationship.
While this is a defined disorder, it also describes pretty much every blog or magazine aimed at women in the western world. Seemingly every week there is a new Cosmo quiz to determine if your man is (still) the right man for you. Newspapers around the world warn women that they might be trapped in a semi happy marriage.
Divorcedmoms.com has thoughtfully created a separate section just for moms Thinking About Divorce. This important resource warns women everywhere (but especially mothers) that they may be settling for less than they deserve in a relationship. The Huffington Post helpfully republished the same article to warn their own readers of this hidden danger. In another article divorcedmoms.com offers tips on deciding if you should divorce, including this nifty graphic.
I could go on at length, because entertainment aimed at women is drenched in this. This isn’t just a secular problem either. Every modern Christian’s favorite movie on marriage Fireproof is a story about a woman who has to decide if she should divorce her husband for the doctor she works with. She doesn’t have a Cosmo quiz to help, but with the help of the Book of Oprah she is able to determine if she loves him or not, and if he loves her enough for them to stay married. I won’t ruin the fun for those ladies who haven’t seen the movie yet, because figuring out if she should stay married or embark on an exciting path of divorce empowerment is the whole fun of the movie.
When you think about the harm this constant sowing of discord causes, it is amazing that our divorce rate isn’t even higher than it is. However, even when this doesn’t lead to a broken home it still creates a incalculable strife in families across the western world.
The Voices are often experienced by patients as whispers, especially when causing agitation and hair-raising fear and the patient doesn’t want to listen. But the real problem is when the Voices are very clear and authoritative, and the patient wants to hear.
As the generation raised by the Dumbest Generation of Narcissists (in the History of the World) comes to media ripening, I suspect this kind of thing will only continue. As art/TV has informed us lately, it’s only worse for those kids:
http://timberstjames.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/this-is-what-was-so-unsettling-about-hannah-horvath-and-hbos-girls/
Now we are the generation of men and women that was raised by the generation of men raised by women.
One author I’ve enjoyed, who helps me break the Matrix’s hold from time to time, has been the late Christopher Lasch (especially his “The Culture of Narcissism,” which amazingly was published more than 40 years ago).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Lasch
Cognitive dissonance is the best medicine for continously uprooting and re-forming media and material consumption patterns. E.g., Jenny Erikson is guaranteed to happen. Leif just bought into the system too hard to spot her in time. Now he’s hashtagging “Not the woman I thought I married” while folks who sell blog ads nod approvingly at Jen’s click-through rate. By the way, have you seen the new iPhone?
So if you are satisfied and happy, you are many peoples’ worst enemy. “We keep you alive to serve this ship. So row well, and live.”
Christian families need to unplug from modern culture. No television, no daily newspapers and sharply limited magazines, movies and Internet. Not only does that stop the whispers from reaching your family, it frees up a lot of time for, well, family stuff. Walk the block with your spouse. Send the kids to the playground. Play non-electronic board games. Answer every complaint of “I’m bored” with pencils and paper… adults included. Even get a landline instead of cellphones? Entertainment technology offers a counterfeit social life in addition to giving the Cathedral a wide pipeline for their poisonous ideas.
It would be interested to see if there’s a correlation between hours of television watched and divorce rate. This could be the simplest “fix your marriage” patch in existence.
Christian families need to unplug from modern culture
Most Christian families have done exactly that. Churchian families, on the othet hand…
The male corrollary to this would be:
Now you tell me. My ex-wife was diagnosed with and treated for OCD at one point. ROCD might make some sense, including explaining why 15 years of off and on marriage counseling never seemed to help. Is it possible to have ROCD, borderline personality disorder, and narcissistic personality disorder all together? Would one or more of these diagnoses explain why she still goes out of her way to complicate every interaction, regardless of its negative impact on the two teens still at home?
Yeah it is.
You wouldn’t be here if you did that GunnerQ.
My God I need to catch up on the literature as I am not equipped with the skill set to ethically diagnose this disorder.
It reminds me of a guy who I was a first-year in grad school with who dropped out because he couldn’t stomach the underlying dark side of diagnosis and psychopathology.
In the classes on that subject (sort of the grad school version of abnormal psych) we learned that the DSM (…) is essentially an encyclopedia of disorders defined by their hybrid statistically/rationally derived criteria sets.
Unfortunately, the “rational” part of that derivation is often political, hence the disappearance of homosexuality between DSM III and IV.
Upon learning about how this process worked, and also gaining an understanding of the mental health clinicians’ use of the terms “distress,” “inappropriate,” and “impairment” he concluded that psychologists and psychiatrists had simply usurped authority that was rightly owned by clergy many years ago and had become the new cloth. We now use the word “inappropriate” instead of “sin” to determine what is socially normative and acceptable and even have the power to temporarily imprison people with no trial.
I sometimes wish I had the courage to leave when he did. I think he was right.
It’s very interesting that the site is all about what makes for temporary happiness, not the Biblical or historic legal reasons for divorce. If the relationship isn’t comfortable all the time, let’s not put the work into it to make it work, no matter what the consequences of divorce might be. Fire up the lawyers!
Yikes.
David J:
“Is it possible to have ROCD, borderline personality disorder, and narcissistic personality disorder all together”
Of course, that’s called “Typical American Woman”
Seriously though, personality disorder people share a lot of the same features, whether they are BPD, ASPD, NPD, or HPD. And OCD, and anxiety are often a tell tale sign because doctors don’t want to diagnose a personality disorder because it can’t be fixed, but they can treat the symptoms.
Imagine the anxiety a person “wearing a mask” feels that they will be discovered. Or the “depression” from spending all that energy trying to appear normal.
I personally think its about 1 in 3 women that have some kind of significant disorder (this is way above what the stats say, but based on observation and the accounts of every man I know, about 1 in 3 of the girls they date is full crazy)
Yes, there’s a lot of overlap in the cluster B personality disorders (the B stands for “bat-shit crazy”). If someone matches enough of the symptoms to be diagnosed as borderline, there’s a good chance she could also fit enough of the symptoms for narcissistic, histrionic, etc., though there’s probably one of the bunch that fits her best — on a particular day, at least.
My personal view is that pretty much any woman who’s spent more than a few of her formative years (especially the teens and 20s) being strongandindependent without the calming guidance of a strong father, husband, or religious order will exhibit at least a mild BPD. In some of them, combine that with a chaotic childhood from a broken family or some kind of serious childhood abuse, and you get full-blown crazy-pants.
I love this quote from the divorcedmoms article:
“They say things like, “I know my relationship isn’t perfect, but at least he doesn’t yell at me.” Or, “He really is a good dad.” Or, “He will always be faithful to me.” When I hear things like that, I am reminded that breaking up with someone is an act of courage. To be honest with someone about why the relationship isn’t working is an act of love. When you can accept that your relationship doesn’t make you the best person you can be, and you correct course by breaking up, you become immeasurably stronger.”
Yes, not only is is ok to do so, but it’s really a form of heroism to blow up a marriage with kids just because you don’t perceive it as “perfect”.
@Crank
Not only this, it is “an act of love”. The soon-to-be ex-husband should be eternally grateful for that.
At first I had a tough time discerning your angle with the quotes you were critiquing. Because I was like, “wow, that’s a perfect label”, being that concisely describes the syndrome so succinctly.
Pingback: the Revision Division
I think we need the same thing for men, called “Is secretly looking at p0rn right for you?”
imnobody00 says:
Not only this… “an act of love”. The soon-to-be ex-husband should be eternally grateful for that.
Indeed, he should be SO grateful that he’s willing to give her the bulk of the marital assets, plus a big chuck of whatever he makes for the next couple of decades (while taking on the bulk of the marital liabilities himself, of course). And if he doesn’t feel sufficiently grateful, those nice men in the blue uniforms, or black robes, or backwards collars will ensure that he has the requisite attitude adjustment.
I’d also add the effect ROCD has on husbands. My wife has OCD – the real one – and constantly would focus on my perceived faults. I had so many I started to believe that I really was a piece of crap. That led to stress, anxiety depression and suicidal ideation.
Then one day, I decided quite simply, not to play the game any more. no more bowing to manipulations, no more acceptance of “not good enough”, no acceptance of her gay friends.
Lo and behold, I got my mojo back, along with my sex life.
My advice, for what it’s worth, is this: married men, don’t take any crap from your wife.Change your bank account if it is a joint one. If she has debts in her name, cut her loose with them while you get your house in order. Challenge every “fitness test”. be prepared for a backlash, but realize that a lot of it is hot air.
Kindest regards and Peace. God bless you, Dalrock.
Reblogged this on vikingbitch's Blog and commented:
Okay, had to check in on the Manosphere today. I have read Roosh V and Chateau Heartiste. It always floors me how critical the men are of American women, yet they criticize women all the time. Men have NO idea what pressures are put on American Working White Woman? If you are black or Latina, you are juicy and phat if you are overweight. If you are an overweight Working White Woman, well you are fat and grumpy. Working White Women are expected to breastfeed, work outside the home full time…
[D: Comment redacted. Follow the link if you want to read her full comment.]
I honestly think that there are just too many flaws in the institution of marriage for it to work for Thinking Working Whites.
If the White race is to survive and thrive, we must abandon some of the tenets of Christianity and embrace our Pagan roots
American
@jf12:
“The Voices are often experienced by patients as whispers, especially when causing agitation and hair-raising fear and the patient doesn’t want to listen. But the real problem is when the Voices are very clear and authoritative, and the patient wants to hear.”
I do not recall exactly where I read it, but a good rule of thumb for discerning voices is to assume, in the following order:
A) You are hearing the devil
B) You are hearing yourself
C) You are hearing God, but misinterpreting Him
D) You are hearing God accurately
Pretty safe way to go. Could prevent a boatload of divorces.
Scott,
“psychologists and psychiatrists had simply usurped authority that was rightly owned by clergy many years ago and had become the new cloth”
Many, many.
The trouble is that the long-term maintenance of authority requires actually “authoring” (creating) something of value. A tree is known by its fruit. That one hasn’t produced much.
“A person may continuously doubt whether they love their partner, whether their relationship is the ‘right’ relationship or whether their partner ‘really’ loves them. Even when they know they love someone or that someone loves them, they constantly check and reassure themselves that it is the right feeling.”
It’s science envy.
One’s wedding vows or commitment to God are not hypotheses to be continually tested, but rather like a seed that is planted and continually tended.
Of course, that does not apply to a relationship, there being no such vow. Another reason why serial monogamy is poor preparation for marriage.
Unwobbling – That A,B,C,D order of discerning voices applies to everyone except Neale Donald Walsch, right?
Reading this post, a 1994 Dave Matthews Band album track came to mind:
“It’s a typical situation in these typical times. Too many choices.”
Too many choices + lack of honor/duty/loyalty/keeping one’s word = societal catastrophe.
Steve H, yes, too much ‘choice addiction’ (perhaps Dalrock’s greatest — of many — concepts).
As an edifying follow up, on the topic of voices, whispering or otherwise:
‘To one of the brethren appeared a devil, transformed into an angel of light, who said to him: I am the Angel Gabriel, and I have been sent to thee. But the brother said: Think again — you must have been sent to somebody else. I haven’t done anything to deserve an angel. Immediately the devil ceased to appear.’
*That’s* how it’s done.
D: Comment redacted. Follow the link if you want to read her full comment.
That was truly funny.
Her boyfriend is a successful ACCOUNTANT. But she’s ready to say bye because he has no goals… When asked the right questions, she admits that it’s because he’s not helping out around the house, not planning trips on the weekend… He’s an ACCOUNTANT, not an event planner. I solved all that by hiring professionals to help with the cleaning, cooking, maintenance, etc so there’s more time (when not working) to enjoy life (together). But it’s not about that. It’s the doubt that every popular funded media source feeds to she and her friends. This is EXACTLY what you’ve written about: http://www.quora.com/What-do-you-do-with-a-boyfriend-who-has-no-goals-or-enthusiasm-for-basically-anything/answers/5678458
The definition of insanity does not always involve a patient whose views are in opposition to the nature of reality. They can be clinically insane if their views are merely in opposition to societal norms. So if everyone jumps off a bridge and you refuse, you’re crazy.
A woman who blows up her family for cash and prizes isn’t nuts. She’s behaving rationally: she’ll be encouraged by her peers, praised by society and financially rewarded. If she gets the house, the kids, alimony, etc. then her life is exactly the same as if was before the divorce except there is no pesky husband around anymore.
If you think all this is wrong, you should see a shrink. You might be crazy.
TomC that is how culture and politics work.
@TOM C
Matthew
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Tom, according to the Bible you are wrong. It doesn’t matter what you or anyone else thinks insanity is. It only matters what God thinks.
Spike is right. The man is the head of the marriage, just as Christ is the leader of the Church. We should imitate Christ in that regard – caring and compassionate to the bride, but willing to chide her when she acts innapropriately.
David, I’m sorry you had to wind up with someone who was emotionally unstable. The disorders you mentioned have similar symptoms and making a distinction between each one could’ve proven difficult for the shrink. My prayers are with you and your kids.
“They say things like, “I know my relationship isn’t perfect, but at least he doesn’t yell at me.” Or, “He really is a good dad.” Or, “He will always be faithful to me.” When I hear things like that, I am reminded that breaking up with someone is an act of courage. To be honest with someone about why the relationship isn’t working is an act of love. When you can accept that your relationship doesn’t make you the best person you can be, and you correct course by breaking up, you become immeasurably stronger.”
….and the Father of Lies chuckles approvingly…
So a relationship is about the woman being the best person she can be?
If she finds for whatever reason that she can no longer be the best person she can be with you? Time to pay up, f*cker.
Time to prepare yourself for the transformation from full time dad to part time dad and monthly check. Time to prepare the children to divide their time between two different households. Time to prepare them to have their own court appointed attorney (4 year olds love having their own attorney). Don’t worry daddy will pay for it.
If you are middle class, time to prepare yourself and your children to accept an enormous decline in their standard of living and future options. Why? Simple. Because mommy deserves a chance to be the best person she can be, of course. What kind of monster would deny her this most basic of human rights?
Isn’t she courageous! Is not her honesty sublime!
If you have doubts, we have a court appointed psychologist to help get your mind right about the whole thing. Daddy will pay for it.
You know how in videos, maybe it started in music videos, there will be interrupting popup text boxes giving some extra information or opinion, like “Christina appears to be channeling her Mickey Mouse days”? There could be mandatory Google Glass popups for women, telling them what to think all day.
That sums up the modern religion pretty well. In fact, many New Agers would say that “being the best person you can be” is our reason for existence and should be the basis for everything we do.
Of course, they’d also say that applies to both men and women. But as a practical matter, in a marriage, if one person insists on getting the gold mine, the other has to take the shaft. And the female imperative makes clear which will be which.
“The trouble is that the long-term maintenance of authority requires actually “authoring” (creating) something of value.”
NOT TRUE
Authority is backed by power,namely at the end of a barrel.
Authority is consolidated by not tolerating and questioning of it’s power,thus zero tolerance and seizure lawz.
The State is the alpha male in YOUR relationship and the woman has the keys top it’s power,thus
(on topic with our gracious host’s posting here)
The beatch is continually lowering the standard in which she will set the pigs upon you.
Thus YOU are the bitch,man.
(dominant my ass)
(my post above)
Which is why the paganist is correct,the new G-d is The State and wimmin the Golden Calf.
Xian’s refuse to come out of her,preferring to render unto Cesar what is not his,namely,your primary
possession,your own flesh and blood.
Xian’s instead play the heretic and hope the PTB and populace come along,rather than preach
OUR GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND WILL BE NOT BE MOCKED.
Onward Christian soldiers has been replaced by (blessed) LGBT weddings whilst hetero marriage is dead x3.
Lacking the will to stand upon conviction,the populace falls into Baal subservience.
All hail the horn-ed God of the FI
Note: I edited the OP to make a more prominent link to the nifty graphic in the divorcedmoms.com article offering tips to a mother deciding if she should divorce.
Relationship OCD? Relationship Centered ROCD? Partner focused ROCD?
I can hardly believe this is even a thing. People worrying about their relationships — this is now OCD? A man fretting over whether his wife is going to divorce him is a diagnosable, treatable mental disorder? A woman with furrowed brow over whether her boyfriend is “cheating” on her needs therapy?
It’s as if the American Psychological Association read “The Whispers” and said “Quick! Revise the DSM-V! There’s a new malady we must diagnose and treat!”
How about just “Stay married”?
It’s ok we know you love God. In the mean time. “Put your hands on top of your head your are under arrest for being different.”
The divorcedmoms site is the hand of Lucifer himself.
We are doomed.
@Dalrock
Whoever made that graphic is a, ah, special person. The orientation of the hand (and therefore the checker’s head) doesn’t match the text or checkboxes.
CODE
Oppositional disorder
DECODE
Standing upon righteous principle
CODE
Anger problems
DECODE
Righteous indignation
Solution?
Solution?
Don’t look for the church to find answers.
The Curse of Potential
http://therationalmale.com/2013/09/19/the-curse-of-potential/
Nursing Power
http://therationalmale.com/2013/11/25/nursing-power/
It’s not a ‘new’ condition. It’s an evolved feature of the feminine psyche – it’s called hypergamy.
The kind of men (and women) who frequent Dalrock probably don’t need to be told this, but it’s one of the things I often wonder about: there’s no male equivalent of this ‘divorcedmums’ site is there?
I mean I know it sounds obvious, but the articles, the approach – ‘aren’t you haaaapy?’ – the advice to blow up your family if you’re ‘thinking about divorce’ – it’s absolutely unthinkable that there’d be any men’s version of this. It just clearly demonstrates how one-sided the whole business is. If a man divorces he loses his wife, and his kids. If a woman divorces she just loses her husband – she generally keeps the kids. It means there’s just one hurdle for her, but the hurdle for him is massively high.
Ultimately, men simply aren’t going to risk marriage. It’s amazing how we’ve collectively handed power to women to muck up the most fundamental building block of society.
Satan is a fallen angel. Any chance that Satan is a fallen female angel (like Elizabeth Hurley in that Bedazzled remake?)
Right. It’s a natural condition of women, that’s being allowed and encouraged by modern conditions to run wild.
My great-grandmother started every morning by going out and pumping water from the well into buckets and carrying it inside, where she heated it over a wood stove for laundry, cooking, and other needs. From spring to fall, she spent a few hours every day in her large garden, which supplied most of the starches and vegetables the family ate, some of which she also canned for winter. She raised chickens for eggs and butchered them herself for meat. She put three meals on the table every day, and helped out on the farm when all hands were needed. She sewed many of the family’s clothes and did other crafts to give the family nice things. She kept the house clean and tidy, mostly with elbow grease and simple cleaners like bleach and vinegar. Oh, and she squeezed the raising of seven kids in there somewhere.
She didn’t have the time or energy to sit around gazing at her navel and wondering if she made the right choice or if she could be 25% happier and more fulfilled somewhere else. If you’d asked her about that, she probably would have laughed and called it a damn-fool question.
But then we had to go and invent vacuum cleaners and indoor plumbing and salad-in-a-bag. We reduced a long day’s hard, physical work to a few hours of mostly pushing things; and most people cut the work back further by having fewer kids. Instead of a bad back from too many hours of scrubbing and carrying, the main danger became ennui and a Valium addiction. Then bring in therapy, which encourages people to sit on a couch and explore their feelings endlessly, and you get to where we are.
My great-grandmother would have told them to work out their “doubts” in the potato patch with a shovel.
@Sasha
This is very much worth noting. There is no divorceddads.com (I had actually double checked), and
last I checkedthere is no male equivalent to shouldidivorcehim.com (previous post). This is almost exclusively a female phenomenon. Women are outright obsessed with divorce, etc, and entirely shameless about this obsession. Not only are women shameless about this, but they frame this shameful obsession as something which makes them more moral. While all of this occurs right under our noses, where else but here will anyone comment on it? This is something the “pro family” Christian websites could do instantly to make a huge difference, but unfortunately they are generally part of the problem, selling the same stuff perhaps slightly dressed up in Christianese.There is only one reason to think Satan is not a woman. The Bible refers to Satan as male. All the real evidence is contrary to that.
Personal ROCD anecdote, concerning my wife’s relationship with her sisters. She spent two hours and forty five minutes talking on the phone late last night/early this morning OCDing with one of her sisters against misperceptions of facebook insults of the other sister against another relative of theirs.
@ Sasha,
When you are looking to move a herd of cattle, you send in a collie to bark and nip at the heels of the cattle.
The collie is inconsequential………and the cows could ignore such noise if they had the wherewithal to step on the mutt’s head.
Unfortunately women are herd like in their mentality…….and prone to listening to the incessant barking of some little bitch.
@Cail, all too true. “She put three meals on the table every day” and women today complain about making a sandwich.
reading some of these posts & articles can be so depressing. i don’t know if i should consider myself lucky i never married anyone.
Anonymous age 72 says:
June 24, 2014 at 11:02 am
There is only one reason to think Satan is not a woman. The Bible refers to Satan as male. All the real evidence is contrary to that.
Mustard suggests:
Perhaps Satan is “male” simply in the sense that he has a strong active-and-dominative principle, rather than a passive-and-receptive principle.
In the matter of being able to procreate or reproduce himself, he may be utterly neuter and barren. No “consort,” nor a capacity for one.
It is entirely possible, even, I think, a necessity, that there is a profound “cognitive dissonance” — or should I plainly say, multiple-personality-disorder, or insanity — within the Evil One. The dragon, after all, has seven heads.
In ‘The Passion of the Christ,’ Mel Gibson’s portrayal of him as a malevolent (but sterile) androgyne, may be pretty close to the mark. (And is this what he wants to turn us all into, in his self-made image?)
Not really wanting to press this subject too far, just thinking.
@Rollo
I agree that this isn’t strictly socially created. There is an innate female tendency in operation, but this isn’t a natural or normal (and certainly not healthy) expression of it. We are in an unusual time where we are wealthy enough to afford to indulge this tendency beyond all sanity, and the true costs of doing this haven’t fully appeared yet. Even worse, we have not just removed what would be healthy checks on this tendency but we have actually reinforced it with the media and a culture which asserts that this pathology is the height of morality. This isn’t hypergamy, it is hypergamy on crack with government subsidies and the blessing of the church.
The best way to consider this is to imagine a society where everything, from the family and economy to the law, education, culture and even religion and morality was radically reshaped with a single minded purpose of encouraging men’s worst sexual nature. Now imagine what men would look like in that society. The pathology you would see would take on the shape of men’s innate drives (his fallen nature), but it wouldn’t give you anywhere near an accurate understanding of what men are normally like. Having the whole thing magnified makes it easier in some ways to view the more subtle mechanics, but it also is very misleading.
I must agree with Rollo, nothing new here. This even happens with “old school” women. For the past several months I’ve been unfortunate enough to have to witness my “unhappy” 85 year old mother decide to divorce my invalid 90 year old father. Apparently he has outlived his usefulness. She told me she just couldn’t stay in that house anymore even though she had 24/7 caregivers on site. She keeps making references to things that happened 50-60 years ago as the cause of her unhappiness. My god, they’ve been married for 62 years. She’s never worked outside of the home. Always had a housekeeper. Never wanted for anything. The interesting thing is she has started looking for me to fill the decision making role my once dominant father always filled. Interesting because she has never previously shown much interest in me, my wife, or my kids and was always a distant mother. The last time I was visiting to get her and my father’s finances arranged she told me how thankful she was for my help and support and admitted she had never really gotten to me me very well. If I hadn’t started following Dalrock and company several months ago, I would be clueless about what is going on.
“She keeps making references to things that happened 50-60 years ago as the cause of her unhappiness.”
Madness. Sheer freaking insanity. I don’t know what else to say. How does one even begin to respond to something like that? I don’t even know you, bradford, and I find this absolutely horrifying.
I’ve thought about that before; it’s hard to even imagine what that would be like in practice. We hear a lot about how it’s a male-centric society because there are sports on TV and pretty girls on the magazine covers, but that’s just entertainment for keeping guys docile.
I’ve been unfortunate enough to have to witness my “unhappy” 85 year old mother decide to divorce my invalid 90 year old father. Apparently he has outlived his usefulness.
One the saddest, most depressing things I have ever read. Whoever can still believe that ‘mankind is basically good’ in this modern age…
I’m sorry you have to deal with this nightmare, Bradford.
@Cane
It really is strange. My best guess is just having a check in the “yes” box (to divorce) was too subtle. They wanted to really stress the empowerment of a woman deciding to divorce, so they wanted a woman’s hand there doing the actual checking of the box. But this then would have partially obscured the box showing that in fact she chose to divorce him, again making the choice of divorce too subtle and not empowering enough (even though the text of the article is designed to seem even handed). So they had to put the woman’s hand behind the screen, but not matching the orientation of the check in the box or the text. I can think of no other explanation.
@Dalrock
After thinking about it: The impression is that the choice is on your side of a screen, but the decision will be made clear on the other side. Presumably, because those on the other side know the right choice.
“Here, just take this and everything will be fine…”
@Bradford
She may be unreachable, but if anyone has the leverage to reach her it is probably you. As you reference, she is leaning on you as her new male leader and protector. This dynamic is even in play to a large degree when the oldest son is a teenager and the unhappy mother is middle aged. Part of why she feels safe divorcing your father is she knows she has you to fall back on. She won’t be without a man looking after her, plus your father can’t fill that role.
Again you may not be able to change what she decides, but your opinion right now matters far more to her now than she will let on. One thing I’ve seen sons do with middle aged mothers is talk to them about how foolish their friend’s divorced mothers look. They talk about how these women abandoned their father, turned their kid’s lives upside down, and now complain to their sons that men don’t want to commit. You might be able to tune that speech to better fit the life stage your mother is at. I say this not to put additional pressure on you, since you can’t be responsible for her choice, but to suggest you might have some options to try or at least consider. You will know you are hitting paydirt when she becomes irrationally angry at what should be perfectly rational and fair statements from you about what she should expect post divorce, and (for example) what your family’s focus will look like with respect to caring for your father.
Dal,
“I agree that this isn’t strictly socially created. There is an innate female tendency in operation, but this isn’t a natural or normal (and certainly not healthy) expression of it. We are in an unusual time where we are wealthy enough to afford to indulge this tendency beyond all sanity, and the true costs of doing this haven’t fully appeared yet. Even worse, we have not just removed what would be healthy checks on this tendency but we have actually reinforced it with the media and a culture which asserts that this pathology is the height of morality. This isn’t hypergamy, it is hypergamy on crack with government subsidies and the blessing of the church.”
I don’t disagree. You’re talking about (usually older) women who have already taken wedding vows; when I was speaking of the female longing for masculinity/headship, I was speaking of (younger) women choosing which suitors to pursue for marriage in the first place. There is a distinct generation gap there. The conflict between those different generations of women is an unappreciated dynamic driving the process you identify.
And we are not, in fact, wealthy enough to indulge that tendency and underwrite that conflict. We are selling future generations into slavery to do so. To me, the silence of the churches in the face of that gravest of sins will be the lasting shame of the church.
Thanks for your thoughts Dalrock. They make a lot of sense. Just a miserable situation. My mother is not a bad person, was a good mother, is a Believer, knows the Bible, taught Bible classes to large groups of women for several years. We all can fall prey to our sinful natures.
I know exactly what you mean, Zodak. There are days I ache for female companionship and there are days I feel like Neo dodging bullets. There’s a verse in early Isaiah where God promises eunuchs an eternal reward better than any family could be. It keeps me going.
Although I prefer to think of myself as a Christian monk rather than eunuch or incel. That’s an idea worth kicking around, a Protestant monastic movement to emotionally and financially support our young men in these hard times. If anybody reading this has a large ranch in a remote area, it’s something you might consider… I lack the resources where I am.
Cail, I’ve had the same observation about labor-saving technology. Having large amounts of leisure time requires good self-discipline… something women appear to have more trouble with than men, even back in medieval times if I interpret all those “court intrigues” correctly.
Scott @ June 23, 2014 at 5:45 pm:
“I sometimes wish I had the courage to leave when he did. I think he was right.”
He was right to not wield power above his competence. You, if you can use the power you have responsibly then you are the one who should have that power. Abandoning power and authority to the lost does not advance Christ’s kingdom.
@Chris Dagostino: Thank you. Much appreciated.
The best way to consider this is to imagine a society where everything, from the family and economy to the law, education, culture and even religion and morality was radically reshaped with a single minded purpose of encouraging men’s worst sexual nature.
One could make a point that the Mohammedans have this. Still, it is hard to imagine such a society, because it is men that build it, and nearly every chance they get, they try to do best by all. Our sin nature is not rebellion, which is what makes women so devastating. Our sin nature is abdication, the abandonment of our moral leadership. When that happens, it tends to be wiped out and hard men that do not tolerate rebellion take the women. Either that, or it gets so violent that it burns itself out. Raping and murdering, and avoiding same do not leave much time for building anything.
The Shadowed Knight
There is no other outcome possible from democracy.
This is another point in favor of authoritarian states. If the primary selection of leaders is by vote, women will eventually get the vote, and proceed to destroy it all. Any voting must be limited in scope to preserve the nation from its women. Allowing women to be emancipated is also contraindicated.
The Shadowed Knight
Re: graphic. She is communicating through a clear window, dynamically illustrating the power of her choice to the person (the viewer’s pov) on the other side of the window. Clearly, that person is her soon-to-be ex. Since she didn’t have to go through all that trouble, showing off etc, then she is either taunting him or rubbing his nose in it. Why through a window? Maybe he’s in prison.
I’m nominating Pink’s Just Give Me a Reason as the ROCD theme song.
I have nothing useful to add (others have already given excellent advice). Just popping in to express my absolute sympathy for you, your father, and your mother too; who will go down in your family history as an utterly foolish woman who betrayed her tribe. Quite sad, when you think about this historically. I hope you can illustrate the stupidity of this particular choice.
It also strikes me that she may have some neurological problem that is driving her strange behavior. Encourage her to get checked out by a physician if you can. As we age, our skullstuffing often starts misfiring, or so I am told (I’m not a physician, mind you; I just occasionally read their journals).
Regards, Boxer
@Bradford
This puts you in an even more influential position. You can calmly and lovingly remind her that she knows perfectly well divorcing your father would be sinful, and let her know you love her too much to enable her in committing this sin. For example, no, neither you nor anyone from your household will help her move out of the marital house. No, you won’t be swinging by to fix things that break in her new divorced residence, etc. But of course this really does have to be something you are doing out of love, so you have to mean it. It wouldn’t hurt to have her pastor on board either, especially so the church doesn’t step in to enable the sin instead of you doing so.
There are no strong independent 85 year old women.
@Dalrock and Bradford
I would suggest that if you’re having a hard time deciding whether it’s loving to present your mother with this reality: Love for your father will do.
No there are not. The near future will mercilessly drive this truth home.
Yes Cane, I’m afraid you’re right. Sorry if I’ve over shared. Don’t want to monopolize the discussion. Just seemed relevant.
[D: It is relevant. Thanks for bearing my unsolicited advice.]
There’s nothing more endearing than when women “whisper” their matronly or sisterly advice to each other before weddings:
How and when did the expectation that the primary purpose of marriage was “happiness” get started?
So a relationship is about the woman being the best person she can be?
And how do we define “best”?
Totally OT, but get a load of this: “Men, Step Up” (http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/2014/06/12/men-step-up/).
So a woman gets touched by a perv on the DC metro, but then goes on a rant aimed at men and rape culture, and how they should start making subway patrols to protect women. Odd.
After reading through all the commentary, I have a couple thoughts that may be able to add to the discussion with my first post.
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that these external forces (whispers) are getting worse at an earlier age, causing newly married men to be hit even harder by the “third wave”, so to speak. Strangers willing to give advice on the internet about whether another person should divorce their husband is similar strategy to the saboteur single friends making a girl in her early 20’s feel bad about having a serious relationship of any kind. It is just an obscene escalation of bad influence- what they have been doing for their entire adult single lives without consequence. The fact that these websites even exist tells me that the weeds are crowding out the bermuda- and they didn’t just pop up yesterday.
Secondly, thank you to all who have provided Scripture and testimony. I don’t know if I will ever want to get married knowing what I do about the system (I am 34), but I am finding a new faith in the principles of Truth that will provide a strong foundation, shall I ever find myself in that position. My struggle still remains that if there is a vengeful God, I pray that arrival is sooner rather than later. The problems are in abundance right now- further delay would only seemingly require more retribution. I just wonder how long we will be allowed to continue under a watchful eye.
Keep up the good work.
Oh, I’d agree, in fact my last two post were about exactly this:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/06/18/controlling-interests/
http://therationalmale.com/2014/06/12/owed-sex/
As I detail in Controlling Interests, it’s gotten to the point where the women who’ve grown comfortable with overtly admitting to hypergamy and (proudly) admitting to their own sexual pluralism strategy will come into conflict with the women who, by necessity, need to keep that strategy secret from men.
These are the women who’d rather the author of this ROCD study keep her trap shut about the inherent doubt hypergamy places on women because it make men that much more aware of the strategy being used on them to consolidate long term provisioning.
“How and when did the expectation that the primary purpose of marriage was “happiness” get started?”
When we abandoned formally arranged marriages specifically and when we quit associating marriage with inheritance and property laws generally.
You can breed with any fertile female. Why choose one girl over another if not for happiness or financial prudence?
No fault divorce made marriage the same as getting a boyfriend. romance. Illegal aliens have a reputation for hard work because they were hiding. They couldn’t go into a government building and sign up for freebies. Now that marriage is just about romance gay marriage is palatable. It’s just about love now. http://news.yahoo.com/via-surrogacy-men-opt-become-single-dads-182314847.html That will be the best fix for marriage
No fault divorce made marriage the same as getting a boyfriend.
I said this very thing to my pastor last week.
It also strikes me that she may have some neurological problem that is driving her strange behavior. Encourage her to get checked out by a physician if you can.
Bradford, that’s a good point. Is there a history of Alzheimer’s or senile dementia in your mother’s family that might be influencing this type of behavior? This runs in my 80-year-old mother’s family (and it historically has struck the women at the same age she is now), which is why I’m keeping a close watch on her now.
Sorry jf12 but I just can’t make myself click the play button on that video.
Sorry jf12 but I just can’t make myself click the play button on that video.
Me neither. Pink is a perfect living, toxic example of everything that is wrong with millennial women.
Instapundit has linked to this. Welcome everybody.
One could make a point that the Mohammedans have this.
No. You can have several women in Islam but you have to support your wives. A society when men could express their worst nature would have a lot of free sex for every man and no commitment.
A society of single women without child support or alimony. All men (and not only alphas) could have access to sex to multiple women and women could not refuse. Even more, women would support all men via taxes.
The more similar thing is some African societies where women support themselves, their children and their lovers. But only alphas can enjoy this.
So a woman gets touched by a perv on the DC metro, but then goes on a rant aimed at men and rape culture, and how they should start making subway patrols to protect women.
Well, society already has a position of that nature. It is known as “husband,” but the use of rape culture means she is not getting any offers. Until you find one of these “husbands,” you can do for yourself, woman. Stop acting like you are owed protection. Men do not owe women protection. That reinforces the Matriarchy, and harmful sex roles.
The Shadowed Knight
@greyghost
“No fault divorce made marriage the same as getting a boyfriend. ”
No, it’s better. It’s a boyfriend who has to pay you a bunch of money (usually) when you decide to break up.
TFH,
President Hillary Roddam Clinton takes office and command on January 20th, 2017.
That is pretty much it for us. We’ll be England (circa 1946.) We had a good run, albeit a short one.
@feeriker, true enough. But her voice is richer since she’s had children.
Sure, the world makes sense (sarcasm /off). Now we are giving advice to people, the logical conclusion of which is that you should actively look forward to getting crushed by a boyfriend/girlfriend so you can get on to your true love.
http://elitedaily.com/dating/why-your-second-love-deserves-more-credit-than-your-first/613124/
“No fault divorce made marriage the same as getting a boyfriend. ”
No, it’s better. It’s a boyfriend who has to pay you a bunch of money (usually) when you decide to break up.
Not to quibble, but I think that the tender years doctrine had a big part of this as well. A return to default paternal custody would go a long way in reducing frivorce.
OT: medical ethicist thinks doctors should collude with a wife who deceives her husband, and a hospital that switches babies
“Telling parents they’re not a child’s biological mother or father can do more harm than good, expert warns”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2666934/Telling-parents-theyre-not-childs-biological-mother-father-harm-good-expert-warns.html
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/6/23/genetic-testing-infidelity.html
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/06/17/peds.2013-4182.abstract
The “expert” is not a journalist or chat show host, but Dr Autumn Fiester, Director of Education in the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.
She and her co-worker Marissa Palmor focus on a “case of misattributed maternity”. It is bad enough that a medical ethicist should expect doctors to conceal the error when they discover that a hospital has switched babies at birth; but obviously most cases of “misattribution” will involve deliberate deception by the mother regarding paternity.
Their study is entitled “Incidental Findings of Nonparentage: A Case for Universal Nondisclosure” and concludes “Our proposed policy of universal nondisclosure … provides a viable solution to the disclosure dilemma”.
“Viable”, perhaps; convenient, certainly; but hardly ethical.
But her voice is richer since she’s had children.
*UGH!* Are saying that thing actually bred? Dear God, please intervene and protect its offspring. They’re otherwise in for a horrible childhood.
I’m not sure if this will be interesting to anyone reading–but a quick side note on psychological disorders as constructs that can be detected or validated.
This particular article appears to be a piece of literature produced by the pop culture quoting sources and research groups that are trying to develop a conceptual framework for the disorder.
Often, these unrecognized “disorders” start off this way until they (often way later) become an ICD or DSM code that can be billed for. However, during that time, if the powers that be are able to get it into the lexicon of clinicians through “awareness” campaigns, etc, this process gets accelerated.
Several examples of this are Nonverbal Learning Disorder and even Psychopathy. These were found in the back of previous DSM versions as “areas for further study” and then ultimately made it to full diagnosable status later.
Many of them continue to be of dubious status long after they are recognized (Dissociative Identity Disorder has a large contingency of clinicians who simply deny it’s existence–I am one of them) for many reasons.
Even so, during the interim periods, clinicians who’s pet project will be ROCD will simply diagnose OCD and put something in the identifier sections like “Relationship Sub-Type” until it just becomes a new thing.
But like I wrote way upthread– a disorder is not a construct in the strictly scientific sense. It is a disorder because of the consensus of DSM working groups. That consensus is driven by many forces–only one of which is “science.”
“So a woman gets touched by a perv on the DC metro, but then goes on a rant aimed at men and rape culture, and how they should start making subway patrols to protect women.”
So much for a strong and independent woman…
I like this guy
This is how you solve the wife problem. Instead of trying to incorporate niceness into getting the magic pussy This is what I advise young men. My son will get this one day maybe 8 years from now
That consensus is driven by many forces–only one of which is “science.”
Are the other ones “political correctness” and “money”?
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Cail,
> “Oh, and she squeezed the raising of seven kids in there somewhere.”
I recall someone complaining on another thread that a family could not give children enough attention if they had 1 more than this. Seems to fall a bit short with your story.
“Another form of ROCD includes preoccupation, checking, and reassurance seeking behaviors relating to the partner’s perceived flaws.[7] Instead of finding good in their partner, they are constantly focused on their shortcomings. They often exaggerate these “flaws” and use them to prove the relationship is fundamentally bad. The fact that they are unable to concentrate on anything but their partner’s flaws causes the sufferer great anxiety, and often leads to a strained relationship.”
This describes me and my ex-wife’s treatment of me. And because of her treatment of me, in the end all I could see of her was her flaws…’Do unto others…’.
Men get their purpose in life from an ideal. Now it might be a stupid ideal, but nevertheless it’s something bigger than one’s self. Women on the other hand get their purpose from the group. And “the group” in this case is our sick, dysfunctional culture.
“Are the other ones “political correctness” and “money”?”
Absolutely. It’s why it is never a good thing when an entire profession is dominated by one political ideology. (See “pollege professors” as an example).
@James K
Fark’s headline was (as they often are) quite funny:
@IBB: “Any chance that Satan is a fallen female angel”
This is something I have wondered. “He” certainly behaves like a rebellious female. “He” is basically given the post of second in command of the entire universe and refuses to “submit.” “He” capriciously leaves, apparently because “he” is not haaapppy. No reason is ever given except “he” is jealous of God and wants power for himself. Then “he” proceeds to wilfully sabotage everything God created and loves out of pure spite. Sounds pretty female to me.
@Bradford: Divorcing 90 y/o man after 62 years marriage where she never wanted for anything, never worked, and brings up events that happened 50 years ago.
This is my own mother, parents married for 52 years. My Dad is still relatively healthy but I can definitely see her dumping- or even worse intentionally fucking with his insulin- the second he stops working. We have made it clear to our mother that an autopsy WILL be done and told her the reason. She CONTINUOUSLY brings up that my Dad’s parents- long dead- came to the house and interfered with her weekend for the 1st 4 months of their marriage- in 1959! She continually brings up how my Dad told her in 1976 that she would have to take a semester off of college because he could not afford tuition. She never returned because she wanted that club to use against him for the rest of his life. I think this is extremely common with herb men who refuse to stand up to their wives and tell them to knock it the hell off. The woman just keeps getting worse and worse, more and more unhinged until she is a mass of anger and cold hatred for the man who provided her everything for her entire life. Life Shit Test: FAILED. I agree with @TFH: Tell your mother if she wants to destroy your family then consider it destroyed and she can be on her own as an 85 y/o single woman. I would bring the pastor to the discussion as Dalrock suggests- and a box of kittens (a cat-lady starter kit).
You may also want to file a Guardian/Conservatorship case for your mother. Get her declared incompetent, take over as her Guardian/Conservator, and then dismiss the divorce. It will be cheaper, much cheaper.
“I feel in my heart that I need to leave my marriage. There is no abuse or evil happening to me from my spouse and I would clog up this question box if I went into all of the details. When I pray about it, I hear the answer telling me to “GO” and to have faith that the Lord will help me survive.”
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=12113401#post12113401
@Daniel Gilson
Even more striking than the question is the answer she received from a priest:
@TFH
She really is something. Her rage is palapable. Most of the other comments are surprisingly good though.
I should add that BostonBridgit’s comments can only help others see the truth. Every time she throws a fit she helps those reading understand that being pro lifetime marriage is now taboo.
Sidebar, tomorrow match between Germany and the United States, it will end in a 0-0 tie. Neither team has any vested interest in doing ANYTHING other than hunkering down and going totally defensive. Why attack when all you need is 1 point to advance to the next round?
TO: Dalrock, et al.
RE: Heh
Cosmo et al are written by miserable women who want company in their misery. — BostonBridgit on Instapundit
Used to be that misery enjoyed company. These days it INSISTS on it.
Hamsterlator: I don’t know why I’m unhappy, and if I tried to explain I know I’d just look foolish and selfish, so don’t ask me to.
Fr. Serpa’s answer is classic: technically correct but confusing and liable to be unhelpful. Yes, the state is in charge of dissolving the legal partnership of marriage and things like division of property, but what does that have to do with the question? For a woman looking for a way out, that can only serve to give her an excuse: “I’m not really leaving the marriage in God’s eyes; I’m just legally separating myself from him for practical reasons.” But once she does that, what are the chances that she’ll ever come back to the marriage, and not be knocking on the rectory door looking for an annulment before long?
TO: All
RE: Women
For the most part, women are ‘herd creatures’. They follow their perceived ‘alpha female’.
The man who finds an honest-to-God woman is truly blessed. For she will not listen to the background noise as put forward by Cosmo and other such outlets of that ilk. She’ll listen to God instead.
RE: Divorced Women
I suspect that if you’re considering marrying one such woman that you look VERY closely into the background.
Trust but verify.
Most divorces are initiated by women and based on personal experience/observation it’s not because of adultery. And the argument of ‘incompatibility’ is just so much dust in the air.
My first was because she wanted to ‘trade up’ from a captain of infantry to the senior partner in a successful CPA firm she worked in. He left his wife of 20 years and three children for a ‘younger’ model. But after she had a child by him, she raped him in Family [Dissolution] Court as well. The second couldn’t successfully dominate me after I became an honest-to-God Christian. And a year after my rebirth, she left.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Who can find a virtuous wife. Her worth is greater than rubies. — Proverbs 31]
P.S. My current wife is the pleasurable admixture of the woman described in Proverbs 31 and the female lead in the movie Lifeforce. We’ve been together longer than my other two marriages put together.
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TO: All
RE: Speaking of Cosmo and That Ilk
If the woman you are involved with is reading that on a regular basis and not laughing at the stupidity therein….
….Flee at once!
If you’re married to one such, be prepared for trouble. The ‘key indicator’—as we say in the Army—will be complaining about little things about you.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Stupid, adj., Ignorant and proud of it.]
She’s half space vampire?
TO: inncoentbystanderboston
RE: The Current Mrs
The ‘good’ half nudge-nudge, wink-wink…. 😉
TFH and Dalrock @ 12:16 and 12:24 on June 25 —
‘BostonBridgit’ has posted on Dalrock’s blog in the past, as noted by Deti in this past thread:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/advice-to-a-single-woman-in-her-30s-looking-to-marry/#comment-85124
Doesn’t sound like things have improved for her in the last few years… She’s posted as “bridget” and “theobromophile” among other names.
Good find gdgm+
That better explains her venom, especially the post she commented on. It also fits tfh’s rule on projection when someone makes outrageous accusations out of the blue.
Thanks Dalrock.
In case people are wondering how I “found” her, it was her avatar/photo over on Instapundit, which is the same one she’d used on your blog, and I recognized it and her name (“Bridget” isn’t a common US name anymore). This is an example:
http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/190667/?show-at-comment=740510#comment-740510
I believe she proclaimed in the past that she would never be married. These posted comments could indicate why that is true. She generally has a reasonable view, but this is clearly a sensitive spot for her. I wonder what skeletons are in her past.
(I was speaking of Bridget/Bridgit)
@pivot
A
B
C
D
E You are a TV news anchor or talkshow host
RE: Projection
TARGET!
“encouraging men’s worst sexual nature.”
Wouldn’t that be the PUA community? To align with the men’s Christian community as 2 sides of the same coin could be to its detriment.
There is a precisely why I call Lifetime “the Evil man channel” to my wife and her family. Because generally, men are the villains there.
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I can’t help but notice how closely the Relationship and Partner focused OCD criteria match common symptoms of clinical narcissism.
Perhaps ROCD/POCD can be redefined as “Narcissist Relationship Tendencies”
True narcissists are incredibly insecure and thus will find ways to push others away before they are “exposed” (amplifying trivial problems to end relationships, start fights, etc…). They are also always on the look out for “better” objects (not people, objects) to date and befriend, so as to enhance their outside image and increase attention and validation. Buttttttt, they also need constant narcissitic supply (affirmation, importance, recognition, from positive or negative attention, it doesn’t matter) so they are loathe to actually go through with the break up (hence the anxiety over ending it, uncertain where they might get narcissitic supply from next).
It’s a never ending cycle. It is not limited just to chicks, as I’ve been there before in my college days, but I have met a rare few chicks who didn’t act like this in various degrees. A little doubt from time to time in a relationship is only human, but this ROCD/POCD stuff is classic narcissistic behavior.
P.S.- This is FFY from old times… I still read every post! Always good stuff, Dal.
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I’m tired of labels. Ocd is rare as is personality disorders in general. Autism and mental illnesses such as bi polar are too very rare. The media over exaggerates these conditions. People use these conditions to excuse bad behaviour.
Hideous articles like the one you linked are to blame. “He’s gorgeous, he treats me well, but there is something missing.” “The relationship you deserve” this is divorce food… its intended to be. For some reason these writers want people to be on there own. Are they in cahoot with lawyers? What is their motive? Why are they imposing impossible standards on people?
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