The Mirror has an article up titled Nearly half of women in relationships have ‘Plan B’ man they can run away with (H/T Earl). There isn’t much actual data presented, but the enthusiasm for women’s infidelity is standard fare. They quote a spokesman for onepoll.com celebrating modern women’s fickleness:
“This news may cause a few men in relationships to think twice about not taking the rubbish out or choosing a night down the pub in favour of a cosy night in with his partner.
“This could spark fear in men across the UK and be great news for women looking for that extra bit of love and care so that their attentions aren’t swayed.”
…
“One thing is for certain, men across the UK today will be giving their partners that extra kiss goodnight this evening.”
While it is hard to imagine a form of bad behavior by women which wouldn’t be celebrated by the media, keep in mind that the sentiment in the article is merely the secular form of the Modern Christian view of marriage.
Although the data presented is murky, the basic pattern is something my wife and I have observed. Women who divorce almost always expect to replace their current husband with a new one, and they very often already have the replacement selected when they decide to pull the trigger. However, what tends to happen is they have either misinterpreted an interest in sex for a desire to take the betrayed husband’s place, or they have miscalculated the intended replacement’s attractiveness for marriage.
One woman we know explained to my wife that when she left her husband she always expected to marry her (beta orbiter) friend. On paper this looked like a good plan. Her beta orbiter had a good job and was eager to marry her. When she spoke with him on the phone she could imagine herself marrying him. But whenever he came over she found his obsessing over her so repulsive that she never was able to even bring herself to kiss him. There was a reason this man dreamed of wifing up a fickle woman; he had no better options. Since then her romantic prospects have steadily declined, and now she is a late 30s divorcée instead of a 29 year old divorcée. Meanwhile, her ex husband has married a younger woman and received a prestigious promotion.
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Since then her romantic prospects have steadily declined, and now she is a late 30s divorcée instead of a 29 year old divorcée. Meanwhile, her ex husband has married a younger woman and received a prestigious promotion.
Sucks to be her. She’s probably a better marriage prospect now than she was at first.
The beta orbiter is as evil as the cad with married women.
I’ve known women that have successfully monkey branched off their first marriage but its usually Done when they are younger, got married younger, divorced before 30 or around 30.
That said most women think their affair will lead to marriage too. It usually doesn’t. (I don’t remember where I read it but most affairs don’t lead to a long term relationship, the excuse given was that they were “practice” or a determination by the married person that they could find someone else and weren’t the optimal partner. Feminine Imperative rationalizations.
When I read this it simply told me that at least half of them women are emotionally “with a foot out the door” in their married relationships. So once again, it is not men that aren’t committed to their relationships, its women.
Theas:
“Sucks to be her. She’s probably a better marriage prospect now than she was at first.”
That is doubtful. More baggage, more anger, more sense of entitlement, less looks, less willingness to offer anything . . .
@Ras Al Ghul
So you know her then.
“Women who divorce almost always expect to replace their current husband with a new one, and they very often already have the replacement selected when they decide to pull the trigger. “
I’m sure this is a very, very big part of women having a “plan B” man around.
But I think part of the reason for this is so that married women can use this as a pressure point to get their husband to do or be what the wives want. So part of it might be replacement; part might be pressuring current hubby through the stick rather than the carrot.
From the UK.
I heard a very similar story to yours Dalrock, via a sister. Apparantly the woman in question’s entire social circle noted that she ended up in a smaller house with the daughters, was unable to get more than P&D and short term relationships, while he went off got a younger, hotter, tighter new woman and a bigger house etc.
I guess that women can learn by a direct enough demonstration. That divorce wasn’t contagious…
Dalrock, I’m hardly surprised at your story. Every person, man or woman, is the sum of their actions. How you attempt to portray yourself, or how you need others to see you (i.e., narcissism), it not who you are.
The woman’s actions indicate to every future partner that she is willing to dissolve her marriage for little reason–and believe me, that stands out to most guys she’ll want to be with.
Though they may not admit it, and though they may be sexing up this late 30s divorcee, the ones she wants to be with aren’t going to want to be with her, and she will be forced to trade down. Her ex-husband had the much greater chance of trading up, and it sounds like what I’d expect is what happened.
In other words, the wife in “Fireproof” was in no way going to have much of a chance to nail down her McDreamy doctor friend.
The Plan B.
The very foundation of my unceremonious introduction to the world of the Red Pill.
Isn’t “plan B” also the market name for the abortion pill? Kill your marriage, kill your baby… There’s a feminist plan B for any murder she needs to hamster away.
In other words, the wife in “Fireproof” was in no way going to have much of a chance to nail down her McDreamy doctor friend.
I think they revealed he was married and slipped his ring off to flirt with her/get her to bed.
In other words, the wife in “Fireproof” was in no way going to have much of a chance to nail down her McDreamy doctor friend.
It’s a Kendrick movie: of course she was going to get McDreamy.
Oscar Wilde shows the female hamster in The Picture of Dorian Gray. A mother and daughter are actresses. The daughter receives flowers from admirers regularly. The mother laments that she used to get flowers “when acting was really understood”. So it’s not that she’s older and uglier; it’s that the critical faculties of the whole population have declined!
Wilde was gay. Have you noticed that gay men are the best judges of character and society? They are so unsentimental.
One day Mr. Plan B will wake to the realization that she has a Mr. Plan B 2.0 on deck to keep him in line and/or replace him.
But don’t divorce judgements destroy the man financially? How the he manage such a reversal, despite what must have been an adverse ‘cash and prizes’ judgement.
In my post-divorce, I was initially destroyed financially. I had to assume half of her credit card debt and have a ridiculous child support payment, even though they are with me half the time.
That said, I no longer have to take time off every time my children are sick. She now has to care for them on her days. In the marriage, it fell on me, even though we both worked full time. Next, I found that fewer “emotional breakdown” calls while I was at work – I can now ignore them completely and without guilt – meant I was more available for work. Since the divorce, I’ve been promoted twice and am on a short list for an upper management training course used to groom for the executive positions.
I anticipate being able to leverage some things to eliminate the child support soon, or at least have it adjusted to something reasonable. That will end eventually anyway. Meanwhile, my career’s taken off.
I am blessed. I thank God daily for my job and for how He has cared for my family. Results may vary, but this is how I’m overcoming the financial punch to the gut I experienced in my frivorce.
In a similar vein:
http://blog.jim.com/culture/the-false-life-plan/
He even scripts a sex-education video to inform women of these facts.
The author may twist it as something positive, but knowing female psychology it is anything but. The women keep prospective men in orbit to optimize on their hypergamy and be prepared for a trade-up to a better husband after divorce or separation.
Also the notion, that men are extra motivated by what we call Dread Game is ridiculous. It works perfectly well on women and a husband flirting with pretty girls is becoming more interesting to his wife. A wife doing the same just becomes slutty. The article was written by a woman in the usual solipsistic female mindset.
Point is…there are many men who would sex her up, far less that would actually commit to her.
Plan B may look good, but that doesn’t mean she’ll get what she wants.
This could ‘spark fear’?
LOL.
My marriage is rock solid but if I thought for a second that my wife was actually forming an exit strategy – my response would be ‘Why wait’? I am one of these guys that thinks critically; I would rather take a BB in the chest today rather than ignore a problem and take a .44 magnum in the back tomorrow. Things have to be good for both partners and if they aren’t – let’s just skip the drama and bullchit and end it like adults.
I suspect that the women with these exit strategies probably live in trailer parks with other idiots that read British tabloids and take them seriously.
Earl
Plan B may look good, but that doesn’t mean she’ll get what she wants.
Reality is not required to grant, or respect, or even acknowledge her Plan B.
Her Plan B may be someone else’s Plan A, but not quite as she wishes.
For example, the reality behind Stella and her groove.
Glen Filthie, this could and probably will spark fear within the average Beta man.
It thus provides a useful opening for the truth about women, and that in turn will shift a man from the scarcity mentality to an abundance mentality. So articles such as this can be used against the Female Imperative to spread truth.
The orbiter or Plan B is as much a part of modern “dating” as it is modern marriage; being that modern marriage is just state-sanctioned “dating” with clawback provisions enforced by the Sheriff.
The plan B man (or men) are integral parts of a woman’s approach to the SMP during all phases, from ‘exploring’ through nesting. A few may (claim) not be aware – as in they don’t admit to kindling these orbiters (as such) or employing such as a strategy, but the orbiters are there nonetheless; effectively AWALT. Still others – a rapidly growing %, are quite open about all of it.
The end-goal may change as the epiphany phase (h/t Rollo) may inspire/force a winnowing effect, but the central tenet of her approach is always about maximizing her options, so it should be no surprise that even after the wedding bells she continues to keep an option within reach. It is true that the actual viability of that option may be rather tenuous at best, but that matters little if she believes it to be a real option; it is what she imports into the marriage that matters.
The cultural obsession with social media replete with insta-communication and over-sharing provides perfect camouflage for her orbiters; it is easier than it has ever been to incubate a plan B. Her sense of entitlement, her expectations, her ideation of relationship trade-offs are similarly kept at the forefront through fingertip access to an endless supply of fantasy and fear-of-missing-out fodder via alternating doses of voyeurism and exhibitionism.
This is all concurrent with women calling for some return to courtship (ChristianMingle!), but of course not so much so that she must give-up these modern conveniences errrr entitlements (TInder!). Like most of these desires for dissonance, the result is moving the goal of marriage out of the minds of men.
The golden parachute of marriage 2.0 is no longer enough; women desire to have a reserve chute at the ready. I’ve found it to be disheartening – but prudent, to assume all women out there “dating” have a full roster in play and while they may cut the roster down after securing commitment, they are unwilling to fully sever to the one man – one woman approach.
For many women, this falls into stuff that: “men get to do”. So they are merely emulating what they see men doing. For attractive women, this apex fallacy drives so much of their thinking (feeling) on these things that I’ve found the best (only?) strategy for me to adopt is to just become one of those men.
So I’ve dropped the one man one woman thing (in terms of “dating”) and have built my own roster. It was surprisingly easy. Then the women inevitably become frustrated when our stalemate of option-building results in their increased attraction to me while I become less interested in commitment to them. What do they think commitment even means when they can’t even cut ties with exes and “guy friends” and general male attention long enough to get in three actual dates. Its a joke.
It seems the modern woman is hellbent on maintaining a system designed to assure their own fungibility. Its entirely scalable too. 23 or 43, they refuse to step away from the trough – virtual or visceral – long enough to ponder what they actually have to offer a man.
Plan B is always second rate to plan A. That is why it’s called Plan B.
If, as a woman, you have a husband who has committed to you at the peak of your youth and beauty, and you think you’ll get a better man after you’re older, uglier and have stretch marks all over your belly, you’re wrong.
*sobbing*. And here I am struggling to pull myself back after I was sexually abused by girls in my childhood and derailed by the cognitive dissonance… is the only experience of sex available to me safely to be from escorts? Or I put all this effort in -and then die a loveless drone? I still have years to go… and going to take psychotherapy, possibly even surrogate therapy to deal with the scars..
Are there ANY honest good-hearted women left?
Your assessment of the post divorce situation for men and women could not have been more on target. After 13 years of marriage and 2 children, my wife and I divorced. I spent my late 30’s and early 40’s dating many women. My wife was doing the same.
Fast forward 10 years from the divorce and I have had 4 promotions and resultant 6 figure salary, a wife, much younger than me, and a satisfied life. My wife is still dating. Plenty of men will bed her but no will marry her. She now regrets divorcing me and blames me for my divorce. of course, she has totally forgotten her role in our marriages demise.
What I found after she moved out is that a woman is a huge money pit. Here is a short list of things I no longer have to pay for and which in turn leaves me better off financially above the fact that my income has nearly tripled.
– Botox
– Cosmetics
– Anti-depressants
– Wine and booze around the house
– Wine and booze at the bar
– Lawyers for the invariable DUI
– Retail therapy
– All the little gifts and flowers necessary that she feels appreciated
Money pit
Many loyal, beta working stiff husbands ARE the Plan B without knowing it.
Ask me how I know. LOL….
Anchorman and Deep Thought,
Living well is the best revenge.
That’s the list of a sad individual.
One thing is for certain, men across the UK today will be giving their partners that extra kiss goodnight this evening
Obviously written by a woman, in typically delusional fashion. Much more likely, given current sociological trends in the UK, is that men will either walk away, not enter into relationships in the first place, or let their women know in no uncertain terms that they will be more than happy to see them walk away, giving the men back their self-respect, freedom, and peace of mind.
As was the case with Dalrock’s acquaintence, this won’t end well for the women.
I think this just replicates female behavior outside marriages.
If we start with the premise that for many (most?) people marriage is a certified BF/GF relationship, then it follows that a woman generally leaves her BF to swing to another branch with a different man on it. Only rarely does a woman leave her BF without having the swing branch, or at least believing that the swing branch exists (i.e., perhaps not already involved with Plan B but having a specific man on the radar screen whom she thinks will respond well to being the next part of her adventure).
So it stands to reason that women would behave this way in marriages as well, because marriages are basically BF/GF relationships which are state-certified and have certain state-enforced benefits, mostly for the woman. Her decision to leave will be just as related to her having (or perceiving to have) a branch to swing to as it would have been with her BFs prior to getting married.
Lyn87,
You’re right. I had another login name years ago and made my story known on Dalrock’s site. It really was the classic “Pearl Harbor” surprise frivorce, complete with outrageous accusations and a court system all too willing to go off her word alone. She tried to turn my children against me. It worked initially for one, but that soon went away and she then blamed me for “alienating” her from my children because they wanted to live with me. The court believed her (again) and so we split custody.
What did I do?
I hit the Book. With the help of this site and others, I re-oriented my life with God. I’m not where I should be, but I’m closer than I ever have been to being with God.
It sounds trite to people with little or no faith, but there is such wisdom, strength, and love in the Bible and God wants to share His blessings with us.
To this day, the first verse that stuck with me in the early dark days is still one I repeat.
1 Peter 5:6-10
6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, 7 casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. 8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. 10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
OT: First no fault divorce…now yes means yes.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/29/us-usa-california-sexcrimes-idUSKCN0HO07D20140929
It’s going to get worse before it gets better.
Well, it only took two and a half years, but it’s nice to see open hypergamy finally catch up with what I’ve been saying all along…
Be the A guy:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/02/15/the-a-guy/
Once again this article, and the one copied in The Daily, are just glaring examples of how comfortable women are becoming with openly, proudly and defiantly embracing their own hypergamy. There are more than enough ‘B’ guy Beta orbiting chumps to lick up the sloppy seconds scraps and rationalize their proactive cuckoldry in doing so with what their blue pill conditioning teaches them, but men, even average Beta men are being told straight to their faces that they are “the fall back plan” by women from a place of complete comfort and security while doing so.
What I found after she moved out is that a woman is a huge money pit.
“The leach has two daughters, crying, Give, give….” Proverbs 30:15
Hehehe.
Only one of the most privileged positions in the world for a wife+mother, if not THE. But …..
‘She’s too thin and has a b*****d of a job’
Germaine Greer on Kate playing ‘womb’ to the royal family
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/germaine-greer-on-too-thin-duchess-of-cambridge-with-bd-of-a-job-its-not-that-she-has-to-be-a-womb-but-a-mother-9762013.html
“Greer, a prominent women’s rights activist, journalist and academic was made famous for writing the 1970 book The Female Eunuch, which promoted the freedom of women to determine their own values.”
They say the empty womb rattles the most.
…and, not for nothing, but recently it seems every time Aunt Giggles denies an easily observable red pill truth an popular article crops up to put the lie to her assertions.
Last week she claimed the Alpha Widow phenomenon was just another “manosphere trope” – then this article goes viral in the ‘sphere. It’s not the manosphere she needs to worry about, it’s the increasing comfort with which women will openly confirm red pill truths long-established by the manosphere.
Taking out the garbage and an extra kiss… hah. Good luck with that.
If I’m feeling a little neglected I go in the opposite direction and act a little bit difficult, flirt with a neighbor, fill up my schedule with non-wife activities. She then snaps into action and cooks me a great dinner, gives me a PDA, or packs me a lunch for work. Problem fixed.
I don’t know where that tabloid gets off repeating the myth that kissing her ass will make her haaaaapier. I haven’t found that to be true and in retrospect the times I tried it, it worked in the opposite direction.
TFH says:
September 29, 2014 at 11:46 am:
“But don’t divorce judgements destroy the man financially? How the he manage such a reversal, despite what must have been an adverse ‘cash and prizes’ judgement.”
I assume you’re being sarcastic since you’ve noted that women as a group have a negative productivity of about 150%, this translates into relationships too.
I knew a guy that was fretting about his divorce and how he was going to make it, so he started totaling up his anticipated expenses and was surprised that he made enough to cover everything with a bit of a surplus and he wondered how that could be when he and his soon to be ex-wife were always in the hole each month and she made nearly as much as he did.
While there are responsible women out there women tend to spend 20% or more above their income level per month. When you consider all the freebies that they get (dinners out, drinks, movies, food, trips, no cover charges, all the welfare, the list goes on and on)
That’s part of the reason women have so much power in modern society, they spend far more than the earn.
Dalrock says:
September 29, 2014 at 11:25 am
“so you know her then.”
I get around
Can you imagine an article that said “50% of men have a plan B, so women need to clean the kitchen and make sure to give that extra kiss at night”?
If men have a Plan B, they’re evil morons and need to repent. If women have a Plan B, men are schmucks who need to shape up.
crowhill,
+1 to that.
To find evidence of the alpha widow phenomenon, Susan and her commenters need look only to this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2747077/Wife-admits-let-fantasies-past-lovers-ruin-marriage.html
“And yet there is no denying that my past lovers have made their presence felt in my marriage — at times, even making me question my commitment.”
You couldn’t ask for clearer, more compelling evidence of alpha widow status. The fact is that the author is married to a man she’s less attracted to than she is to her past lovers.
In my opinion this is the number one cause of marital problems – she’s just not as attracted to hubby as she was (or is) to the men who got there first.
Another example of women erroneously believe that men think like they do. If man is not needy and has options, a woman’s attraction for him goes up. But the reverse is not true at all. Much of what causes men (especially beta men) to love women and what motivates a husband (or long term boyfriend) to stay with a woman is sense of protectiveness over someone who needs him and has entrusted herself to him. If he believes she has a plan B all lined up, it’s not going to make him want to give her an extra kiss goodnight or be extra solicitous. It’s going to kill his sense of loyalty and his natural male desire to be a protector and provisioner. The only thing an article like this might accomplish (if it accomplishes anything) is to make its male readers feel less committed and loving toward their spouses and to substantially reduce any guilt they might feel about dumping and/or cheating on women, if they are inclined to do so.
“While there are responsible women out there women tend to spend 20% or more above their income level per month.”
Even single women I know would spend more on a dress, handbags, or shoes…than I do on rent in a month. Plus they have to drive a fancy new car and live in a place they can’t afford.
Plus let’s not forget every single medical issue they think needs a doctor to look at them.
“One thing is for certain, men across the UK today will be giving their partners that extra kiss goodnight this evening.”
What an absurd statement, given the fact that the reaction from most men would be quite different from that…oddly enough the author seems to be implying that A Plan men will react by becoming harder working for their women if they find out she has a B Plan, or by treating them in a more romantic manner, when in actual fact, that is the exact opposite of what would most likely occur. That type of thinking and behavior on her part would cause the man to move further away emotionally, be less prepared to commit, or create his own B or C plan, simply as a way to balance the relationship….nowhere in the article is there any mention of the fact that the end result of a woman’s B plan behavior will almost certainly be less commitment from her A plan man.
That said, I no longer have to take time off every time my children are sick. She now has to care for them on her days. In the marriage, it fell on me, even though we both worked full time. Next, I found that fewer “emotional breakdown” calls while I was at work – I can now ignore them completely and without guilt – meant I was more available for work. Since the divorce, I’ve been promoted twice and am on a short list for an upper management training course used to groom for the executive positions.
This is why I don’t understand why guys will marry modern women. One of the primary functions of the wife is to be the helpmate for the man, not the other way around. It not exactly rocket science, so why are so many guys jumping into the blender?
Also, any guy who would marry another man’s wife deserves what he gets IMO, especially if she frivorced her previous husband.
Plan B may look good, but that doesn’t mean she’ll get what she wants.
Exactly Earl. Plan be is probably more often a hamster based deception then anything else.
This is why I don’t understand why guys will marry modern women.
In my case, I had an employer with a very flexible leave policy and I rarely took time off, except for sick kids. The ex worked at a place with a brutal “unannounced leave” policy.
Now, however, she’s on her own.
It may seem mean-spirited (“Why not do it ‘for the children?’ “), but I remember how she tried to absolutely destroy me. Because, you see, you don’t divorce a good man – only an evil SOB.
If, as a woman, you have a husband who has committed to you at the peak of your youth and beauty, and you think you’ll get a better man after you’re older, uglier and have stretch marks all over your belly, you’re wrong.
Correct, but try telling them that:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/are-women-done-with-men-after-age-55/
Are there ANY honest good-hearted women left?
In the US? I know some, but most of them were imported. All of them are already married.
+1 for Crank
@JDG
I know lots of honest, good-hearted women in the US. They’re all over the age of 75
– Botox
– Cosmetics
– Anti-depressants
– Wine and booze around the house
– Wine and booze at the bar
– Lawyers for the invariable DUI
– Retail therapy
– All the little gifts and flowers necessary that she feels appreciated
Cosmetics is the only thing on that list I will pay for. However, I need to add shoes, more shoes, even more shoes, and helping her extended family to make my list accurate. Yep money pit. That’s the nature of the beast. Still, she more than earns her keep.
@JDG
I know lots of honest, good-hearted women in the US. They’re all over the age of 75
I’m laughing, but this really is sad (and accurate).
Awful. What kind of commitment is that? And they wonder why men won’t marry.
JDG says:
“Are there ANY honest good-hearted women left?
In the US? I know some, but most of them were imported. All of them are already married.”
Toad:
“@JDG
I know lots of honest, good-hearted women in the US. They’re all over the age of 75”
I’ll be frank here, any halfway decent woman in the United States, or anywhere else for that matter, is married by 25.
The over 25 set are cock riders, divorcees (so by definition either bad pickers or more likely unhappy disloyal or worse), angry feminists, or batshit crazy (I repeat myself with the last two) or a combination of any of these four.
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Alcockell don’t be so tough on yourself. There’s always hope. And escorts aren’t a bad option, really.
Be the A guy:
My advice is that if you even get a hint that she’s the type who would have a B guy, do not hitch your wagon to that mule. If she doesn’t see divorce as a major pitfall (financial ruin and major status hit), do not marry that girl.
Also, go out of your way to find out what she’s like when she is angry with you before you marry. If she is a modern girl it shouldn’t be too difficult, just disagree with her.
“While it is hard to imagine a form of bad behavior by women which wouldn’t be celebrated by the media”.
Yup. If it bleeds, it leads and if they’re bad, they’re glad.
Ever since Piers Morgan left the Mirror a decade ago the red-top rag has been going down-hill, so you may judge that The Mirror is not normally regarded as the most intellectually challenging of the British dailies and I can confidently state that reading the Mirror makes one feel as if one is suffering from Alzheimer’s as what is read one minute will be instantly forgotten – in fact I cannot recall ever having read the paper.
The research was conducted by Onepoll which is itself part of 72 point which is owned by South West News Service, one of the largest news agencies in the country and run by Andy Young, Paul Walters, and Martin Winter. Not a strong empowered woman in sight at SWNA so draw your own misogynist, pay-gap, rape-culture-in-the-typing-pool, conclusions – personally, I have always suspected that fifty per-cent of married women rather than Plan B have a secret Plan 9 where they dig up the corpses of ex-boyfriends (i.e. go on Facebook) with the intention of turning turn these unfortunate men, shadows of their former selves, into will-obeying, home-improving, trash-carrying, zombies.
If men have a Plan B, they’re evil morons and need to repent. If women have a Plan B, men are schmucks who need to shape up.
Of course. This has been the marching orders for decades. Privileges for women, responsibilities for men.
It should say “50% of women admit to having a Plan B man.” I suspect the number is much closer to 100%.
However, many of them aren’t well-thought-out exit plans in the sense that she has any intention of following it. But any halfway attractive woman can name some guy whose proposal she turned down a few years ago, or whom she dated for a while and who still gets in touch now and then, or who was her best friend in college even though it wasn’t romantic. There’s some guy (or guys) out there that she figures will wife her up if she becomes available — either through hitting a certain age without finding Mr. Right, or through divorce.
It just shows how many options women have. A woman can turn down a series of guys who don’t make her tingle, date but refuse marriage with some who do, say yes to a “starter marriage” when she decides the time is right, and still expect to pick up a second marriage if necessary — possible with one of those guy she wouldn’t marry earlier. Nice work if you can get it.
I actually saw something like this this month… girl I was seeing seemed to be going the extra mile to not appear like she wanted or needed me, like she was running the aloof game on me. I was trying to figure out why and in the argument she added… “I have no problem leaving.”
Which was insane, not only because we were in no way a couple, but because what guy feels more respectful/likes a woman more if she runs that game?
I was kind enough to tell that girl in the same discussion, “next guy you go out with, don’t do that.”
@Alcockell, read my post here, it may give you some hope:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/09/29/a-new-hope/
It just shows how many options women have. A woman can turn down a series of guys who don’t make her tingle, date but refuse marriage with some who do, say yes to a “starter marriage” when she decides the time is right, and still expect to pick up a second marriage if necessary — possible with one of those guy she wouldn’t marry earlier. Nice work if you can get it.
Women have it easier than we do. It’s why men tend not to understand the complaining.
Plan B…….now when I go skydiving I have two parachutes in my rig. One is my main, which I usually land under unless something goes horribly wrong. The other is reserve. If I’ve got line twists that I can’t kick out of, i’m cutting away and pulling the reserve. If I have a hard opening and lines are broke off the main, I’m cutting away and pulling my reserve. If I have a pilot chute in tow and can’t fix it, i’m cutting away and pulling my main.
Now, there is still the possibility that my reserve may mess up and I end up a bug splat on the ground. However, I have a SOLID backup plan. But, that is skydiving. Skydiving can kill you. But there are things that are worse than death. Getting your ass handed to you by the typical Ameriskank woman and ending up a depressed shell of your former self….to me that would be worse than death. Getting with the typicla modern day woman is just as stupid as jumping out of a plane without a parachute!
@Dalrock
Good post! I was just listening to this on the radio about 3 hours ago,while sitting in Toronto traffic.I was thinking what a good post it would be for your blog. Wow!…deja vu.I have had 4 women in the last 10 years or so ask me if I would like to be each others backup plan.I did not know what that meant until explained to me.If neither of us is married by 45 we get married…..WTF?….My reply……….”No thank you! That means that I have to live you? And adhere to all the bullshit feminazi laws?….And put up half of my house as collateral? As well as other assets?……Oh Boy! what a deal!….PASS!”
@ TFH: “One thing everyone should have on their mind at all times is that 70-80% of government spending, or about 20% of annual GDP, is transferred from men to women.”
Any source for this? This would greatly support one of the points I’m trying to make.
I think the UK men will be contacting a private detective and solicitor, but it might be described as removing the trash from the home.
Rewind to my Parents’ time. There was courtship, not dating. The relationship started social, typically with meeting each other’s parents, and grew from there, but the target was marriage.
I think it is both men and women who are damaged by having sex before marriage – women because they will always compare what it was like with the alpha of their distorted, rose-colored, memory, but also men since they will be looking for superficial beauty and will have imprinted on that making it harder to find the wife attractive. Or as one man observed, “What if the first woman you saw naked was your wife?”. Alan Bloom in the Closing of the American Mind noted most college students of his day had a damaged eros. The problem is the order, it should be agape, philea, eros, not eros, philea, agape. (Sex first, if it is good, then comes romance, and if that works then think about marriage).
Eros is a form of love too, and even it isn’t self-pleasure. I’m not even sure promiscuous alphas or pick-up-artists actually have Eros. They have pleasure, certainly, but eros is still a much higher form of love.
@tz2026
This is a thoroughly modern way of thinking. The problem isn’t the order of emotions, it is the pursuit of sex and romantic love outside of marriage. Pickup artists aren’t misusing sex by not feeling romantic love. They are misusing both. The elevation of eros to “a much higher form of love” is the fundamental modern mistake.
Barbie had a plan too:
But look how it turned out:
whenever he came over she found his obsessing over her so repulsive
Many guys seem to think that being a “sure thing” for a guy is good – it isn’t. Women DO NOT want what is easily available, they want what they have to work for. That is what gives it value – the most valuable thing is something she cannot afford, and haa to work hard to attain. Women embrace this – so the guy that isn’t interested, or that they hate initially, is the guy they want. No, it doesn’t make sense – but then women don’t make sense except to other women. The fortunate thing is that they do not need to make sense – you just need to understand what drives them and use it to manipulate them. A lot of beta guys will take issue with the term “manipulation” – which is why they will ALWAYS be betas….
This is why the best game is when you have another woman involved – as it’s instant competition. I’ve used it many times – this is why having a woman that brings other women to my bed is incredibly valuable to me. Something that they have come to understand and exploit. But that’s fine since it benefits me – and I don’t see other women as competition when I get to bed them too. This is why those “Bachelor” shows tend to end up with women that marry the guy – but the “Bachelorette” shows never end in anything long term. Women want the man they cannot have and have to compete the hardest to win – so the Bachelor makes her compete against women she sees as “hotter” than she is so when she wins – as long as he’s not an idiot, she will stay with him. Of course, he has to keep her competing – if she doesn’t she’ll lose interest and look for another man to try to win. This is why sometimes I do something nice for the women I see – not often, and completely unexpected – it makes them melt and stay. But when a woman has 12 guys all vying for her – she’s not interested in any of them – she wants the guy she can’t have. That is why only a foolish man will play those games.
Anyway – women are easy to understand, and manipulate once you know what drives them – they always want better, and what they cannot have. Use it to your advantage… This is why I set myself up in settings with other, younger women all the time. I make women vie for my attention. Even those in my “core” group have to keep producing or they will lose their position to a younger woman that is working for it. When it comes to women – making them work for you IS in your best interest… I always feel sorry for the “Cling-on” type guys… Not enough to skip banging their GF if she’s hot though… 🙂
This is pure projection of dread game. Plain and simple.
@ TFH: I’ll check out the Misandry Bubble.
I don’t doubt your analysis in the slightest (which doesn’t even yet factor in welfare for all those heroic single moms). It’s just easier to point to a figure and a source. The Bubble should do the trick.
Law 16
Use Absence to Increase Respect and Honor
Too much circulation makes the price go down: The more you are seen and heard from, the more common you appear. If you are already established in a group, temporary withdrawal from it will make you more talked about, even more admired. You must learn when to leave. Create value through scarcity.
I’d rather spend my own money and pump and dump then marry a dozen other men’s cumdumpster and risk divorce, child kidnapping, and alimony slavery. Even the alternative conservative media is blaming men as being the problem. Fuck this, women aren’t worth this much trouble and what do I even get out of marriage other then responsibilities and risks.
C.B.:
“and what do I even get out of marriage other then responsibilities and risks.”
credit for time served in Hell
This discussioin reminds me of the saying “Absence makes the heart grow fonder.”
Must have initially come from a woman.
Word.
Everytime I see a man kissing his wife at a wedding, I get this mental image of a man kissing the girl after she partook in a bukkake after all most bukakkes have less cocks then the average woman tastes before marriage. I have lost all respect for women. I don’t even care about the so called “good” girls because even the good girls have watched as men are turned into slaves, drugged to be less passive at their mothers and female teachers requests, and had their kids kidnapped. Adios
It may not work every time, but I can remember that much of the case book from my family law class consisted of cases in which the woman was remarried within months or even hours of the divorce.
I wonder if you could put together any data that might shed some light on how often they succeed (at least short term). Maybe by comparing ages of wives at time of first divorce to their ages at time of second marriage, and throwing out the ones who never remarry?
The ex had a plan C (A and B didn’t work out) and wound up marrying plan E or F. The guy didn’t look anything like me, but he’s pretty much just like I was. Poor sod.
“A study carried out among 1,000 women found a substantial percentage have managed to keep another man waiting patiently in the wings should they end up single.”
Aren’t those men orbiters?
“And, worryingly, married women are more likely have a Plan B in the background than those who are merely in a relationship.”
Well, so much for marital fidelity amongst the masses. People wonder why MGTOW happens.
“It also emerged the Plan B is likely to be an ‘old friend’ who has always had feelings for the woman in question.
But other candidates are an ex-boyfriend or ex-husband, a colleague or someone who they have met at the gym.”
Alright, so some are orbiters. Tracking.
“This news may cause a few men in relationships to think twice about not taking the rubbish out or choosing a night down the pub in favour of a cosy night in with his partner.”
In regards to the former, why not just lay down the law from the beginning of the relationship? Women take out the trash.
The only flaw I can find in the study is that it was conducted by an online polling firm (so it appears to me from the article). When I was in undergrad five years ago, pollers (I did some my senior year as part of a field research project) still hadn’t figured out to accurately poll via the Internet due to a) not knowing how and b) it not having reached 90% penetration stateside. Things may be different in the UK in terms of market penetration but I’d be curious to see if they have indeed found a way to accurately poll it.
Having said that, it’s a disgusting example of hypergamy in action. I may have been a possible plan B for someone I met a few weeks back had I not fumbled it so bad. See AG on that one if you’re curious. In retrospect, as one commenter said on that post, I may have dodge a bullet.
“However, what tends to happen is they have either misinterpreted an interest in sex for a desire to take the betrayed husband’s place, or they have miscalculated the intended replacement’s attractiveness for marriage.”
Serves them right for not honoring their marriage vows (those that already have the replacement selected when they decide to pull the trigger).
@Ras
Agreed about her not having as good marriage prospects.
“So part of it might be replacement; part might be pressuring current hubby through the stick rather than the carrot.”
The problem is they may inadvertently follow through when they didn’t mean to. No fault divorce needs to be abolished. It’d be a start in the turning around of civilization Stateside.
“the wife in “Fireproof” was in no way going to have much of a chance to nail down her McDreamy doctor friend.”
The husband may even decide to pull the trigger on her and she could find herself hosed. Stranger things have happened.
@Redpillsetmefree
Did you get burned by an ex who planned B you?
@okrahead
It is the name of an abortion pill.
“It thus provides a useful opening for the truth about women, and that in turn will shift a man from the scarcity mentality to an abundance mentality. ”
Ding ding ding!
“The cultural obsession with social media replete with insta-communication and over-sharing provides perfect camouflage for her orbiters; it is easier than it has ever been to incubate a plan B.”
Oh yes has it ever been!
“The golden parachute of marriage 2.0 is no longer enough; women desire to have a reserve chute at the ready.”
What needs to be brought back slowly and steadily is the shame of divorce. We can all start this individually. If we know a woman personally who has divorced, tell them directly or hint to them indirectly (whichever works better in the case) that it was a foolish move. Repeat.
“She now regrets divorcing me and blames me for my divorce. of course, she has totally forgotten her role in our marriages demise.”
She probably initiated the divorce, didn’t she?
“Can you imagine an article that said “50% of men have a plan B, so women need to clean the kitchen and make sure to give that extra kiss at night”?”
I smiled at that. Some guy who has another job on the side but contributes to a major daily (like the Daily Mail, NYT, WaPo, etc.) should write that. It’d be beautiful to see the reaction.
“This is why I don’t understand why guys will marry modern women.”
Having yet to marry, I’ll say this. I’m looking for a wife who is the same religious denomination as me and takes it seriously. If I can’t find one that fits that bill, I’m not marrying. Some men may marry modern women (religion aside) because they can’t see all the warning signs (they don’t have male friends who would tell them the truth, their parents are worried they would never get married so they don’t care how toxic a particular woman is, etc.) and are too hopped on losing said chick.
“My advice is that if you even get a hint that she’s the type who would have a B guy, do not hitch your wagon to that mule. If she doesn’t see divorce as a major pitfall (financial ruin and major status hit), do not marry that girl.”
As Scruffy would say, “Second!”
@archerwfisher
How did she take that?
“There was courtship, not dating.”
That is the problem. Anecdotally, in my case, only my grandparents courted (they may have even dated for all I know). How do you get back lost generational knowledge like that?
@A Visitor
“How do you get back lost generational knowledge like that?”
Usually by experiencing all the disadvantages of the alternatives. Wise people listen to the wisdom of previous generations. Western society left wisdom in its dust a long time ago and I don’t see it turning around to recover said wisdom anytime soon (certainly not without a lot of mass suffering due to a major collapse).
In regards to the former, why not just lay down the law from the beginning of the relationship? Women take out the trash.
…and do the dishes, and the laundry, and clean the house, and cook, and especially… MAKE SAMMICHES!!!
@ A Visitor
Slowly and painfully. Its a combination of digging up the past and slowly piecing it all together again.
I almost wonder if God has a “plan B” for misbehaving humans.
In regards to the former, why not just lay down the law from the beginning of the relationship? Women take out the trash…..
…and do the dishes, and the laundry, and clean the house, and cook, and especially… MAKE SAMMICHES!!!
If you lay down the law at the beginning, you’ll end up with the woman who will accept it. The mistake many men make is to be too nice or too scared to spell out exactly what they expect in a relationship.
“Meanwhile, her ex husband has married a younger woman and received a prestigious promotion.”
Which she will punish him for via increased child support and alimony demands as soon as she gets back to family court. Oh and he gets to pay for her legal fees incurred while suing him also. Isn’t nice women have this stop-gap to punish men further for their own (women’s) bad choices. She can move on but if he does he’s taxed and punished. Ah the wonderful state of modern relationships. Satan is proud I’m sure having replaced love and devotion with slavery and a gun.
If you lay down the law at the beginning, you’ll end up with the woman who will accept it.
Assuming that nothing changes. Like, oh, a change in employment for either of you, or children, or moving to a different city, or any of many other things. It’s a good idea to spell out expectations at the start of any relationship, be it personal or business, but it’s also necessary to be prepared for changing circumstances. A substantial personal “buy in” is essential.
Did you get burned by an ex who Plan B’d you?
…That’s putting it mildly.
If you lay down the law at the beginning, you’ll end up with the woman who will accept it. The mistake many men make is to be too nice or too scared to spell out exactly what they expect in a relationship.
You’re preaching to the choir brother. I made sure it was understood from the beginning.
Dave says, “If you lay down the law at the beginning, you’ll end up with the woman who will accept it. The mistake many men make is to be too nice or too scared to spell out exactly what they expect in a relationship.”
Good stuff there. Before my wife and I got married we discussed our roles. I told her that she would be responsible for the house, and I would be responsible for the income. Furthermore, I told her that I didn’t care how the household stuff was handled, as long as it was handled. She could stay home and do housework, or she could hire a maid, but if she wanted a maid then she had to go out and earn enough money to pay her – I certainly wasn’t going to pay a maid if she wasn’t working. Obviously I have veto power over her hiring decisions, and if a maid didn’t take care of things well enough it was my wife’s problem, which happened a couple of times. I’m pretty easy to please, though, and our arrangement has worked extremely well. There was a brief period when I kept going to my sock drawer and not finding any clean socks. I was still in the military at the time, and the phrase I used was, “Socks need to just happen.” It ceased being a problem after that, and we took to calling it “The Magic Sock Drawer,” because no matter what, there were always socks for my uniform.
Over the years we’ve refined things a bit for our mutual convenience. She has a job now that brings in reasonably good money (about 40% of what I make), and now we divide the laundry into his, hers, and ours. I generally do my own laundry and often the mutual laundry (like towels and sheets), which is fine: I prefer the way I do it anyway… and since I work at home most of the time it doesn’t even cost me any real time or effort. In fact, I can hear my clothes tumbling in the dryer right now. I also handle most of my own meal preparations. This way she has less housework to do when she gets home from her job and we can spend more time together doing things we like.
Barring a debilitating medical condition, it is important for a wife to have real, substantive duties that she must perform to her husband’s satisfaction. Like I said: I’m easy to please, so when I do mention something that needs attention she quickly gets all over it… a totally no-drama event. The problems we’ve had have been few and trivial, and it’s been that way for over a quarter-century.
@redpillsetmefree: “Preach it, brother!”
You wanna bang a 10? Hire an escort. You wanna keep a 10 for an LTR or marriage? Become a board-certified hypnotist.
Dalrock, you have previously mentioned “Eat Pray Love” and ” How Stella..” were divorce porn for women. Rightly so. Apparently too, is another Julia Roberts movie, “My Best Friend’s Wedding”, judging from this article.
The article demonstrates the folly of men and women being “friends”. It never works, and it makes me wonder whether women are only friends with men for just the reason outlined. Women are fickle and will betray the man they are with, and if you area party to it, they will betray you as well. It’s just a matter of when and how.
This is why the ancients made them swear to adhere to their husbands in front of all they held sacred and in front of everyone they loved and who loved them – marriage, in other words. And as soon as they managed to get craven politicians to give them wriggle room, literally half of them wriggled out of those vows.
In my wife’s circle of friends, several women are now divorced. One has had a bastard child with her Beta orbiter. I wish him good luck in maintaining his relationship with the child – loo looks like he is going to get the flick at any time. Another has contemptuously divorced her husband, expecting that men will prostrate themselves on the ground for her and being shocked it didn’t happen. Two others have turned lesbian, which is really code for a last ditch attempt at companionship because they have nothing to offer a man.
It isn’t a good look. the prospects of a sad and lonely life loom.
“This could spark fear in men across the UK and be great news for women looking for that extra bit of love and care so that their attentions aren’t swayed.”
Isn’t it exactly this sort of thing that sparks fear in growing numbers of single men compelling them to avoid marriage and LTR? And I think I can safely assume regular readers of this site and the manosphere already know that extra bits of love and care in actuality repel women’s attentions.
It’s ironic. All the manosphere needs to do to be successful is to convince men that: 1) women and sex aren’t worth it; and 2) default sole maternal custody is unjust and a disaster. There’s lots of success with 1); 2) still needs a bit more work. Nevertheless once this happens it’s game over.
But this is what traditional Christianity used to teach.
Deti, you state this continually – “In my opinion this is the number one cause of marital problems – she’s just not as attracted to hubby as she was (or is) to the men who got there first.”
Could be. But could also be just a case of getting past the excitement. A lot of woman marry men they are attracted to, but after some years, the illusion dissipates, and reality sets in.
As AD says – “Love is an act of will” Love is work. In my opinion, it is the lack of feeling the need to work at love, brought about by all the bullshit thrown at society about “true Love”.
Status report almost exactly three years post-frivorce:
1. My finances took a big hit, even though it could have been worse. Alimony was relatively small and was to be temporary (and then was mooted when she remarried after only 1 year). Child support was significant but not nearly as outrageous as others have had to pay and, just as important, was also fairly short-lived because the two kids still at home were teenagers at the time of the divorce. Relative expenses went up because the cost of child support plus the rent I had to pay to be in my kids’ school district matched or exceeded the mortgage payment that was difficult to pay with two incomes, and because I continued to pay two college tuitions without help from her income. Equally bad or worse, my income dropped because my productivity dropped (my income is eat what you kill, not salary) due to increased domestic responsibilities and decreased motivation.
2. But now my finances are recovering fairly rapidly. Child support ended in May (and now she pays me a small amount monthly for our one child still at home, who lives with me), as did the college tuition. My income is back up along with my motivation. I still have to dig out of the debt accumulated prior to the divorce and in the aftermath (some credit cards, a lot of taxes, and fairly significant attorney’s fees), but it’s finally clear that it can be done in good-sized chunks each month.
3. The last child heads off to college next year, at which time I’ll relocate to be near my family (parents, siblings, etc.) who have only been able to offer long-distance support while I have toughed it out alone here. Once there, I’ll get back on the market — something I deliberately chose to avoid until my youngest graduates high school, because neither of us needed any additional complications while he was still at home.
4. I have solid relationships with 3 of my 4 kids, including the special needs daughter who lives with my ex 75% of the time. The exception is my oldest, who broke off all contact with me a year ago over a financial mistake on my part that warranted temporary displeasure but not excommunication. I’m sure this is the result of an extended campaign by my ex to undermine me to the kids; fortunately, only 1 bought into it; unfortunately, 1 did buy into it, at least for now.
5. The divorce war continued after the divorce was final. For a full year now we have been battling in court over ancillary issues — alleged contempt for late child support payments, health insurance for the kids, visitation related expenses after she moved 400 miles away, a new request by her for attorney’s fees, etc. Now that our daughter has graduated high school and is no longer governed by the custody order, my ex will not even meet me halfway for visitation; I have to drive all the way to Green Acres and back to pick up and drop off my daughter — 1600 miles total for each visit. I am routinely incensed at the blatant crap she pulls because there’s no applicable court order.
6. She will have been remarried 2 years in another couple months. She professes to be happy. He was not a corporeal Plan B because she didn’t know him before. She swore prior to the divorce that she had no interest in and no expectation of a remarriage; she was lying to me or to both of us, because she started dating (online) the week the divorce was final. He is not an upgrade in physique, age, money, intelligence, or mileage (he was already twice divorced). But (in her perception) he was an upgrade because he is more outwardly “spiritual” (this means he likes to pray out loud, lead “home church,” etc.; it does not even mean that his character is otherwise unblemished — see the two previous divorces, the adultery against the first wife with the woman who became the second wife, the physical abuse of the second wife, being asked to step down as a lay pastor because of his behavior toward his ex-wife after the second divorce, his willingness to marry a woman who had frivorced her husband (me) and was therefore entering into an adulterous remarriage, etc.). Both my pride and my sense of justice are frustrated that she was able to remarry at all and that the remarriage has not already floundered. But I carnally hold out hope that the remarriage will yet fail and that in any number of other ways our kids and her friends and cheerleaders will eventually see what she really is and what she really did in blowing up a family that should have and would have stayed together but for her selfishness and stupidity.
So, it has been a hellish three years, but I think the corner is being turned. I hope that in as little as two more years I’ll be able to point to significantly more positives — more money, less debt, being ensconced with a group of people who actually like me, perhaps some romantic prospects, and either (a) appropriate devastation in her life, or (b) (perhaps better for me spiritually and emotionally) indifference to her fate on my part, or (c) (ideally?) both.
CAF crypto-Marxists are going to go nuts over this. Their common explanation for why 70+% of divorces are by women is because of abuse, neglect, etc. Now we could probably pin 50% of that on “finding someone new.”
—
Speaking of CAF:
U of Michigan: withholding sex = sexual violence.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=911943
Some help with getting husband on board…NFP
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=911955
The Devaluation of Men
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-29/well-become-isis-devaluation-americas-young-men
Promoting Mutual Submission
http://www.startmarriageright.com/2014/09/heforshe-god-and-marriage/
@David J.
Glad to hear you are bouncing back and that you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. All the best to you.
Your ex – some people don’t receive their just punishment in this life. But, punishment does happen in the next life.
Classic Mirror FUD. The britmen I associate with would instinctively respond to that kind of threatpoint with extra golf (it’s unaccountably popular these last few days). Or more generally, “spending more time at work” (I really did, no monkey business like most fellows).
The would-be “boss” of the relationship will only hear its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar.
If you’ll excuse me, I’m just off to pose fetchingly in my paisley jimjams for those selfies of the old meat-and-two-veg, which will be duly Facebooked to a pretty young Mirror hack of my choice.
From the heforshe-god-and-marriage/ article:
A guiding principle for Biblical marriage is mutual submission. A husband submits to his wife’s needs for affection and cherishing. He is for her, not against her. A wife submits to her husband’s needs for respect and support. She is for him, not against him.
And who decides what her needs are? Who decides when he is meeting them? I used to fall for this bs too, but the bottom line is someone is the head (leader, decision maker, arbitrator, ie: the boss). Following the above advice could be tantamount to set the wife up over Christ in the marriage.
The Bible instructs wives to submit to their husbands in all things and husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church (His bride). I think the difference here is that the husband follows Christ, while the wife follows her husband.
In the biblical model the husband doesn’t look to his wife for instruction or supervision to see if he is doing it right, he looks to Jesus. He is for Christ. Mutual submission is really just submission to the wife instead of Christ.
MarcusD I’m beginning to think of that site as Jezebel for “Catholics”.
…the bottom line is someone is the head (leader, decision maker, arbitrator, ie: the boss)…
There is no human organization in existence where you don’t have the leader and the follower. As soon as you have two or more people in an organization, a pattern of Leader and Follower eventually emerges, if the organization is to remain functional. It is the Principle of Human Government which is actually a part of the Government of God. Even among equals, you still must have a leader. (e.g. the US Senators are all equals; but you still have a Senate Leader). So, it is an aberration to have a marriage (which in reality is a small, nonprofit, kid-producing organization) without a leader. When the feminists talk of equality in marriage, what they meant was to usurp authority over the man, not to be equal to him. And that is contrary to God’s clear commands (1 Timothy 2:12).
“Who are most make-work government employees?” BLACKS #AffirmativeAction
Frugal Nerd on September 29, 2014 at 7:02 pm
“This discussioin reminds me of the saying “Absence makes the heart grow fonder.”
Must have initially come from a woman”.
If that is true why are women always the one pushing to take the relationship to the “next level”? It’s so odd that women insist on getting as close as possible to a man, then after she gets what she wants and they are living together or settled down and married with kids she’s like….I’m bored, see ya loser I’m off to the next guy who puts the cap back on the toothpaste and leaves the toliet seat down. More relationships would work LT if people DON’T live together. But a woman will never accept that, they are the ones always pushing for more, more, more closeness and then are like ewww too close! I’m bored! lol
Women are lunatics.
So she’s saving some of her farts for someone else?
@Dave
There is no human organization in existence where you don’t have the leader and the follower. As soon as you have two or more people in an organization, a pattern of Leader and Follower eventually emerges, if the organization is to remain functional.
“But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.” (1 Co. 11:3 NET)
This principle of the creation order and headship is so important that Paul commanded the Corinthian church to conform with every other church he established and adjust their manner of clothing choices as a constant reminder of the “pattern of Leader and Follower” whenever they assembled together, or prayed privately.
No wonder that part of NOW’s agenda in 1968 was to end this practice.
@JDG
Not could be, it is:
The Deification of Wives
This is common teaching and practice of “Christian marriage” today, and is even codified in the law.
Submission is Whatever The Personal Jesus Wants
ballista74 thanks for the link. Good post.
The Mirror is less reliable than the Mail; the Star is less reliable still. Today’s front page story is:
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/402270/Black-Eyed-Child-ghost-spotted-for-first-time-in-30-years
“If that is true why are women always the one pushing to take the relationship to the “next level”? ”
Actually there are surveys that show men fall in love faster and want to move the relationship along quicker.
ballista, thanks for those links. You’ve inadvertently done most of my research for me for the next section of my book.
@gaza “So I’ve dropped the one man one woman thing (in terms of “dating”) and have built my own roster. It was surprisingly easy. Then the women inevitably become frustrated when our stalemate of option-building results in their increased attraction to me while I become less interested in commitment to them. What do they think commitment even means when they can’t even cut ties with exes and “guy friends” and general male attention long enough to get in three actual dates. Its a joke.”
100% agreed, I was raised one woman at a time and have been frustrated for years. Now I have a soft harem/roster,and lo and behold…….woman are REALLY interested in me. I cant believe it, all i had to do was become narcissistic, cold, indifferent, and generally not give a sh*t about them. Now i get everything i want from women without making any investment in them. It wasnt easy, I really had to work at being a selfish a-hole, it took a couple of years, but now that im here, im loving life. 🙂
@srsly
It depends on what you define success as. If locating a man, any man, and marching him down the aisle, then so long as the woman is fairly young she is more likely than not to “succeed”. I shared the latest data I could find on this here.
But what does the replacement husband look like? To get a sense of this, we can look at the “true life” divorce empowerment tales. Eat Pray Love is probably the most well loved of these, and I shared information on the new vs old husband here. Another popular “true life” divorce empowerment story is How Stella Got Her groove back, and I shared the story of the real man/marriage here. In short, the two most celebrated stories of “success” turn out to be marrying men who needed visas to get into the US. The first replacement husband is 20 years older, nearly bald, and short, and the other celebrated replacement husband is gay and (according to the author) only married her for a visa and the money.
So yes, lots of women succeed.
@Remo
In this case she can’t. They weren’t married all that long and didn’t have any children. He offered her a smaller total alimony amount with larger monthly payments over a shorter term. She was sure she would be remarried soon (she had her plan B in place), so she jumped at it.
Dalrock says, “It depends on what you define success as.”
I’ve mentioned this before but this seems like a good place to mention it again. My SIL frivorced her husband (she had committed adultery with his brother, among other things). He’s a flawed guy, but easily the best man she was ever going to get. BY FAR.
After flailing around for a few years as a divorcee she met a total loser of a guy and latched onto him. No job, little money, twice-divorced, a bit of a gambling problem that she subsidizes, and permanently impotent. He didn’t seem to want to marry her, but I imagine she threatened to cut off the money if he didn’t, so they got hitched – in a bar – a few months ago. As it turns out, he didn’t get his latest divorce decree sent to him, so they weren’t able to get a marriage license in the state where they live now. They had a white-trash wedding but they’re not legally married… although she insists that they are. (County records say, “No” to that.)
Here’s the deal: by any objective measure her first husband was a far better catch than the guy she’s with now, but she considers herself to have upgraded. Her hamster must be stoned.
@Darlock
As someone else mentioned you have gone over some movies that serve as divorce porn. You have also done a few posts on cuckolding. I thought you should know there is a TV show that is cuckolding porn for women (and not the XXX kind).
My wife was watching Call the Midwife from the BBC on Netlfix and in season 1 episode 3, “Maybe a baby” there is a 100% FI dream come true. The complete utter beta husband who is a “good man” and “good provider” waits in anticipation for their baby to born. The baby is born and obviously not the husbands (wrong race). And what does he do, he rejoices and commits to raising the baby.
Now, there is a Christian way to see this as amazing much as Hosea. What forgiveness, what grace! However, the show is a 100% female oriented show so I am pretty sure their goal was more cuckolding female porn than admonishing us all to forgive. I saw the episode through more red pill glasses and while my wife was swooning about what a great beta that guy was I was letting her know she would be on the street. I am not that Christlike yet.
@JDG, @Martel Hopefully the truth will get out there. As for Martel, look forward to hearing about that book when it comes out.
@Kevin
Another way to deliver the same message while watching that would be to exclaim “Oh man! What a slut!” Just let it sit there while you laugh at the incredible absurdity of it. Don’t underestimate the impact of judgment for ugly acts like that. See the previous post where Yohami’s lady friend was so disturbed by my pointing out the AF/BB ugliness that she petitioned for him to intervene on her behalf. It was too painful to bear, so she required a white knight to come to her rescue.
Incidentally this is the sin of the husband in the case you described. He didn’t even call her out on her huge, ugly, shameful sin. In doing so he let her down, as her likelihood of repentance is very low now.
@Lyn87
It reads to me that socks happen because you make them happen. You eat because you are your own cook. Your wife works for other men (or perhaps women), and disdains working much for you. You have no children.
By your descriptions, you are living the dream of the very sort of people that are lampooned as inverted and cross-dressing sex roles in this archipelago of websites; yet you come across pompously, as if you are a role-model. You incessantly give advice on how to be a husband and father–as if you had lived it. I don’t see how you can! If you had read this of another, wouldn’t it strike you as obtuse? Should we take the financial advice of an indebted man?
5. The divorce war continued after the divorce was final.
Was just discussing this over the weekend with a man I know. A foreign bride did not work out as expected, frivorce followed with the usual “her custody” & him a few days per year. Over a few years he’s worked that to more and more often. The latest plan he offered to the court was 50/50 & the response from the ex was basically a torrent of emotion but no facts. Interestingly, the judge has granted the new plan. Perhaps the absence of any reason in her reply was a factor. They’ve been divorced for several years but still apparently wants an authority figure to declare him a “bad man”. Bad man!
Apparently in this case, the woman neglected to set up her Plan B.
David J. says:
“Both my pride and my sense of justice are frustrated that she was able to remarry at all and that the remarriage has not already floundered. But I carnally hold out hope that the remarriage will yet fail and that in any number of other ways our kids and her friends and cheerleaders will eventually see what she really is and what she really did in blowing up a family that should have and would have stayed together but for her selfishness and stupidity.”
Patience brother. People do not change without great effort on their parts. If the man she married is as you describe, it will happen eventually. Besides, you cannot know what happens behind closed doors.
My advice though is to let it go. It doesn’t do any good to waste energy thinking upon her.
Cane Caldo,
Well… I suppose that if you are determined to view absolutely everything I write in the worst possible light, and ignore all the parts that don’t fit the obsessive narrative you have constructed in your head about me, then you might come to some of those absurd conclusions. I have found that people who try to psychoanalyze me based on my internet postings have an error rate upwards of 99%. You are among them. You could perhaps ask yourself why you feel the need to attack me for positions I have not taken and things about my life that only exist in your imagination, but I won’t spend much more thought on it myself. However…
You wrote, “You incessantly give advice on how to be a husband and father.”
“Incessant?” Okay… provide a link to any post I have ever made where I gave advice about fatherhood, or be man enough to admit that I caught you in a lie.
“Actually there are surveys that show men fall in love faster and want to move the relationship along quicker.”
lol…show me the survey that shows men want women living with them. In fact The Onion had this mock story, lol.
Nation’s Girlfriends Unveil New Economic Plan: ‘L…: http://youtu.be/7ADncN9HIa4
Bango Tango on September 30, 2014 at 8:22 am
“If that is true why are women always the one pushing to take the relationship to the “next level”? It’s so odd that women insist on getting as close as possible to a man, then after she gets what she wants and they are living together or settled down and married with kids she’s like….I’m bored, see ya loser I’m off to the next guy who puts the cap back on the toothpaste and leaves the toliet seat down. More relationships would work LT if people DON’T live together. But a woman will never accept that, they are the ones always pushing for more, more, more closeness and then are like ewww too close! I’m bored! lol”
I could be wrong since I’m fairly new to the Red Pill; as I understand game one mistake many men make is not taking a few nights or weekends to spend with male friends or on hobbies once he is living with his wife. At the most extreme is the dread game with radio silence for a week or so while out of town. Once the husband is spending at least some time away from his wife then his wife is more likely to want to make sure he knows who his one and only is.
“Women are lunatics.”
Truer words were never spoken.
Anchorman says:
September 29, 2014 at 11:59 am
For the most part, divorces do destroy a man financially, at least vis-a-vis where he would probably have been absent the divorce. I do, however, recognize the emotional distress calls you describe and understand how their cessation could improve one’s focus on career and/or other wealth building activities. Generally, however, the improvements would probably have been attainable irrespective of or perhaps even in spite of the quality of the marriage.
Unless a new wife offers some built-in advantage (e.g., wealth the dude can tap), divorce is the hands down winner for wealth destruction for any married couple.
One final thing about Cane Caldo’s lie and his weird obsession with me: “You incessantly give advice on how to be a husband and father.”
I did a quick search through my last 100 posts, as well as all seven articles Dalrock has in the “Fatherhood” section for this year (my computer has a function makes that quick and easy). As I knew to be the case; I did not give any advice about how to be a father in any of them. Call me crazy, but I would think that if I were the kind of guy to incessantly give advice about fatherhood, I might have have done so at least once. Apparently Cane Caldo thinks that 0% is “incessant,” so we should all double-check any numbers he puts in any of his posts from now on. FWIW, only a small handful of those posts could be construed as containing advice about being a husband, either.
Now… I’m off to eat the lunch my wife made for me.
@Lyn87
Being a husband and and being a father should not be separated, and cannot be for those who bear fruit; either of their own loins or otherwise brought to them. While we can talk about husband and father distinctly, they are meant to refer to one person. Any piece of advise is about how to act as one role places makes demands upon the other.
Let me put it another way: Your own quoted testimony, and all your husbandly advise, is from the point of view of a man who has not been a father. There is a VAST difference.
You have no skin in the game. You do your own laundry. You do the household laundry. You take care of the household chores. You do your own cooking. If your wife divorces you, what impact will that have on your life? Is it comparable to the man who is a father? No!
Every link to any husbandly advice you have fits the request because implicit within all your advice to husbands is: “Don’t be a father.” There are times that would be appropriate, but I cannot imagine those times are ever as frequent as you give advice, or regale us with how effortlessly and successfully you don’t run your family.
@Lyn87
Hahahaha! Right on time to exemplify the end of my previous comment.
I concur with Dalrock at 11:30 am.
…The baby is born and obviously not the husbands (wrong race). And what does he do, he rejoices and commits to raising the baby… Now, there is a Christian way to see this as amazing much as Hosea. What forgiveness, what grace!
This is not like the Hosea example. God told Hosea to marry Gomer to demonstrate the moral condition and future judgement of Israel.
Hosea 1:2 When the Lord first spoke through Hosea, the Lord said to Hosea, “Go, take to yourself a wife of whoredom and have children of whoredom, for the land commits great whoredom by forsaking the Lord.”
These were the children born to Hosea:
Jezreel was named after the valley of that name because God was planning to punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jesreel (Hos 1:4).
Lo-Ruhamah (she who has not received mercy) was named to denote the ruined condition of the kingdom of Israel and the fact that God would show them no mercy (Hos 1:6).
Lo-Ammi (not my people) was named as a sign of God’s rejection of His people (Hos 1:8).
In spite of popular misunderstanding, Hosea is not an example for men to marry women of whoredom and have children of whoredom as an act of mercy and grace. Forgiveness and grace need to have an element of repentance, otherwise the act is merely enabling the sinner to continue sinning.
Matt 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
God have mercy on us.
JDG is correcting a typical fallacy exhibited in the church – to take the exceptional and make it the example. This is done both with Hosea/Gomer and with Joseph/Mary:
Man-Up Rants Take No Season Off
In response to Cane Caldo bearing false witness against me here, I challenged him to back up his charge with even a single piece of evidence. I wrote:
“Incessant?” Okay… provide a link to any post I have ever made where I gave advice about fatherhood, or be man enough to admit that I caught you in a lie.
Cane has addressed me twice since then. Not only has he not provided a single quote of mine to support his charge, but he has declared that he will not do so.
Cane Caldo has shown himself to be not much of a man. Make note of that, everyone.
Noted. Cane, It’s a silly argument to impute fatherhood to Lyn and then claim he’s a poor one.
Frankly, I like the sound of Lyn’s marriage. His needs are met; he and his wife sound happy with each other. Do they need to follow the housewife & 2.3 kids script to be a success? If you want Lyn to have children, Cane, then I recommend pledging some financial support. “Skin in the game”, y’know.
@Lyn87
Cane Caldo has shown himself to be not much of a man. Make note of that, everyone.
You like everyone else are welcome to your estimations of me, but in the meantime think about about what I said the next time you decide to give advice.
“Men fall in love faster than women do”
http://www.match.com/magazine/article/6030/Love-Explained/
That’s from Helen Fisher. She’s done some interesting work on men and women and how they fall in love. For instance, she’s found that women are much pickier than men.
@Gunner Q
Hey, I guess that’s all that matters.
No, but he has no housewife and no kids and he presents himself as successful. Like your question here, that presentation is wrong-headed in multiple ways.
I don’t want him to have children. I want him to start observing what he writes.
“Women looking for that extra bit of love and care so that their attentions aren’t swayed. One thing is for certain, men across the UK today will be giving their partners that extra kiss goodnight this evening.”
Sure an extra kiss and hug will satisfy her Hypergamy. You go girrrls.
Here is the Red Pill plan B- treat your wife like your kid sister, instigate, isolate, escalate. Tease her mercilessly, neg her hard daily, and screw her like a cave man, Then when you are done give her a hard slap on the butt, get up immediately and go do something interesting while leaving her dripping fluids down her crack. Hypergamy satisfied, for now.
Thanks GunnerQ, I’m still waiting for Cane to show even one quote from me about a topic that he claims I “incessantly” talk about. Four posts and counting since I gave him the chance to supply the quote or be enough of a man to admit he’s lying. Four posts with no quote and no admission. That only leaves one option: Cane isn’t man enough to admit when he’s wrong. Then again…
Personally, I would be content if Cane Caldo would just stopped obsessing about me. I generally don’t like to use the word creepy, but…
Indeed, Dalrock, in that sense, “success” would merely mean to initiate plan b. Not that plan b is good or useful or not cast aside later. Your first link shows the very helpful chart about age distribution for divorcing wives, but it is awkward to compare the age distribution of remarried women to that, and I’m not an economist. What is missing is the age distribution for women entering their second marriage. I wouldn’t be surprised if the remarrying group is actually younger than the overall divorcing group. That might seem paradoxical, but I’m thinking that without a plan b (whatever he may be) already lined up, the odds of remarriage drop by the day while, as I said, they often remarry within hours if they can.
The hamster’s purpose is to declare every action she takes as a “success,” whether it’s objectively success or disaster. A woman could divorce a millionaire doctor who dotes on her and end up with an unemployed slob who won’t pick up his socks, and insist that everything’s going according to plan.
“The hamster’s purpose is to declare every action she takes as a “success,” whether it’s objectively success or disaster. A woman could divorce a millionaire doctor who dotes on her and end up with an unemployed slob who won’t pick up his socks, and insist that everything’s going according to plan.”
I believe that’s what my ex has done. It remains to be seen whether that becomes clear to others.
“Men fall in love faster than women do”
It stands to reason. Men are relatively more decisive. Once they find what they are looking for, they don’t vacillate, or seek the opinions of everyone who would listen. They simply decide, and move on. It’s the womenfolk who ruminate endlessly, as anyone who has ever shopped at the mall with a woman will readily admit to. They simply can’t seem to be able to make up their minds
I think there’s an element of guilt involved with the hamsterbation that justifies divorce. Most states have rules that people who are party to a divorce proceeding complete a class on divorce, which (in most cases) makes very clear the statistical outcome for children of divorce. The stats are pretty brutal and make clear the old trope that “it won’t effect the children” is complete BS.
It’s kind of like pointing out the dismal performance of public schools. Parents will decry the failure of modern public education, “But my school is different.”
Divorce is willful child abuse. Full stop. Period.
Women have a Plan A .. a Plan B .. a Plan C .. and OhShit women have a Plan?!?!?!?!??
I’m sure it can only bring peace, love and harmony to the universe .. any second now 3 .. 2 .. 1 .. okay any minute now … never mind soon I’m sure!
@ JDG
Yes, “mutual submission” is wife-worship; and all Game advice suggests that women hold such wife-worshipping men in utter contempt; it simply doesn’t work. I posted the following in another of Dalrock’s articles some time ago. It was in response to a comment by ‘Doomed Harlot’. I think it makes sense, and is according to God’s plan. What do you think?:
Doomed Harlot:
“Thanks Deti. I do appreciate the clarification, but I definitely understand that “submission” as it is understood does not necessarily mean that the woman is a cowering doormat. As I understand it, it’s practice varies but it really comes down to the husband having the final say (as Sunshine Mary described) when the couple has a disagreement. That’s the understanding I have.”
Biblical, Godly submission is the key; the one and the same submission the Christian has to the will of God. As Christ’s authority on Earth, the wife is submitting to God, not a ‘mere male’. No Christian does it perfectly, but I certainly don’t think the wife’s submission (as a Christian) should be so imperfect as to come down to her having the attitude that she is allowing her husband to have the last word; sounds like belligerence to me; might as well marry a worldly.
The Godly husband is Christ’s authority and representative on Earth; in submitting to her husband, the wife is submitting to Christ. The Godly husband is the spiritual leader of his wife and family. He is the authority on all matters within the family. No need to even mention the word ‘final’, or ‘last’; he is the authority, period. Or will you have two bosses of equal authority? Can’t work, doesn’t work, won’t work, and the Scriptures tell us so.
Also, whenever I see the words dominate and dominant come up, a red flag goes up in my mind, and Cane explained the Biblical reason why: it’s not a matter of the husband dominating his wife; it’s a matter of God-ordained headship:
1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV
[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
No dominance mentioned there: only headship.
… women have a Plan?!?!?!?!??
That was the first thing that I thought when I saw the post.
Snowy – I remember doomed harlot. I hope she has changed her ways. The only quibble I have with your assertion is the phrase “Godly husband”. I believe all husbands have authority over their wives and children much like the governing authorities have authority over peoples (only not necessarily the same types of authorities).
I have heard too many women tell me that they will not submit to their husbands because he wasn’t “Godly”. Then they like to trot out the most unlikely of scenarios to justify their rebellion.
Dread Game Update
Mrs. Gamer had a small eruption of insecurity as we were about to have romance. She accused me of having a gf at my favorite country bar (which isn’t true). I agreed and amplified about having twenty and she said that managing all those would be too difficult and I said that I had a system. There was no number 2 gf and each one got to take a number and I would call them out when it was their turn. She was amused.
Anyway, she brought it up again and I tried logic, which failed, of course, but I kept my composure and just danced with her as she talked and started giving her little kisses of reassurance around her face and she calmed down and we had a happy ending.
The next day, Mrs. Gamer brought up her fears again and Elvis Presley’s “Suspicious Mind” came on and Mrs. Gamer realized how foolish her assumption was. She had cause for dread, but not for her conclusion that I had a gf.
Mrs. Gamer has been pushing for me to stop going out alone to my country bar, which would end Soft Dread. Of course, I can’t allow soft Dread to end, since that wouldn’t be good for the marriage, so I will continue to go to my country bar alone one night, though I will take her dancing another weekend night.
I continue to have to manage my women dance partners; the young, inexperienced ones seem to assume that I am interested in them romantically if I merely dance with them. Dancing with women leads to a rise in their oxytocin levels the more one dances with them, which induces that “falling in love” feeling. Women who are experienced with dancing are aware of the oxytocin effect and know how to manage it, but not these young fillies. So, they have expectations and I end up having The Chat(tm) with them.
I am mildly confused here. First, Dalrock and others insist that men are basically raped by frivorce. Which I agree with. But then, they say that women who frivorce are worse off? Honestly, pick one. Either men are worse off, or women are? Assuming that women are the stupid frivorcing party. I just don’t get this dichotomy?
Oh, I always agree that the children are hurt by divorce. If a woman frivorces, then she just does not give a care about her kids. Nicest way I can put it.
@Sir Charles Pipkins
If blacks were the biggest beneficiaries of AA, then women wouldn’t outnumber men in the workforce.
Let’s make this clear: between the 1970’s and the 90’s, there were more middle-class white women admitted to colleges, hired to corporations and ensconced in government positions than black Americans in total. If aliens or angels appeared at this moment and “disappeared” a black person for every middle-class white woman with a top-to-bottom AA career path/ job, there would be 0 African Americans in this country. Hell, if we removed a black man with a criminal record for every middle-class white woman who received a non-secretarial job (with a degree in a Humanities course) at any American corporation, the AA crime rate would drop to Asian levels. When you consider the MCWWs who received grants and scholarships, the ones who were added to advancement groups at corporations (for “diversity!”), the ones who received med school/law school/etc. berths with lower grades, never mind the millions of government jobs, I can’t even say that my claim is a pure exaggeration. The reason that I’m on standby for admission to college as we speak is based on, literally, “black male veteran < white single mother with sub-school aged children". I have the money to spare, but the public-run colleges and unis' in my area are on a major "gender equality" kick at this time. Id have to travel to the other side of the state to receive the level of interest that a group of last-name-ending-in-Ovas are getting…!
Margaret59 asks, “Honestly, pick one. Either men are worse off, or women are? ”
Margaret, you’re positing a false dichotomy: divorce generally leaves both parties worse off but in different ways. My brother went through a nasty divorce when his whore of a wife decided to go back to her old boyfriend and take the kids with her (in before…: yep, he shouldn’t have married her, but she claimed to have given up her wild past), he was a sucker and she played him like one.
My brother lost his house, was virtually impoverished, and had to deal with her false allegations of sexual abuse. But as bad as it was, he was actually fortunate compared to most guys: her accusations of sexual abuse were SO over-the-top and so obviously a tactical move that they didn’t go anywhere. And she went so wild that even the courts – with much prayer – couldn’t ignore her erratic behavior (which included kidnapping the children for five months). Needless to say, she suffered no penalties for interstate kidnapping, contempt of court, of lying to the police, because she is, after all, a woman. (I had more radical ideas for dealing with the situation, but I got vetoed. Let’s just say that she’ll never know how lucky she was that her false accusations never went far.) My brother got custody of the kids (I’m still not sure the youngest is his, though) and stayed out of jail… lucky man. But as I said… he lost his marriage and his house, and was essentially impoverished for years. The fact that my parents had room for him and the kids, and pushed hard for grandparent’s rights finally tipped the scales.
But she suffered as well. Unlike most women who pull that crap, she lost her kids, but even if she had kept them she would have lost out. She married the “boyfriend” she cheated with… he’s old enough to be her father (she has SERIOUS daddy issues). Then when he couldn’t keep up with her turbo-charged vag, she started banging anything that moved. Her husband caught her, and got angry that she would cheat… lol. They divorced and she married THAT guy. And she cheated on HIM, which made him very angry… lol again. They’re divorced as well. So now she’s a three-time loser whose looks are G-O-N-E, alone, post-wall, without the slightest chance of having what she threw away.
They both lost out, my parents lost out, and the kids lost out… but I think in this case she lost the most.
A partial happy ending,, though. The second husband (the one she was cheating with when she was married to my brother), had a real epiphany when he caught her cheating on him. He realized what he had done to my brother, and was genuinely mortified by his actions. He accepted responsibility, apologized, got right with God, and is a friend of the family even now.
I am mildly confused here. First, Dalrock and others insist that men are basically raped by frivorce. Which I agree with. But then, they say that women who frivorce are worse off? Honestly, pick one. Either men are worse off, or women are? Assuming that women are the stupid frivorcing party. I just don’t get this dichotomy?
That’s because both parties benefited from the marriage. Post divorce, the lawyers take their pound of flesh, and now the man and the woman each have their own homes/transportation, which is costlier than them sharing those resources.
On top of that, there may be ongoing legal battles against each other which incur further legal costs.
It’s not a dichotomy at all. Marriage can be a win-win relationship – but our modern culture has destroyed that to the net loss of everyone.
@JDG
MarcusD I’m beginning to think of that site as Jezebel for “Catholics”.
There are a few account names on Jezebel that I recognize from CAF (ones unlikely to be by chance, either). It doesn’t really surprise me, to be honest. The site has been on a downward trend since it started.
There are a few traditional (leaning) Catholic forums like Fisheaters (which appears to be down at the moment). They do take a hard line against radtrads, though (http://www.fisheaters.com/abouttheforum.html#radtrad). It is interesting to see that they’ve gotten more liberal over time, as well. I guess the Overton window applies to all.
I am mildly confused here. First, Dalrock and others insist that men are basically raped by frivorce. Which I agree with. But then, they say that women who frivorce are worse off? Honestly, pick one.
This is how I see it:
Men are hit harder but can take more and usually can recover faster. Women are hit less but hurt more because they aren’t able to recover as aptly. Children suffer the most even though they aren’t the primary targets.
The problem with beta orbiters (for women) is that they are just there… most women have them if they are attractive. They don’t just go away… even if a woman tries to push them away some – even trying to get them to go to the manosphere and get educated… they don’t believe it. Its very strange to me.
So… if a death or divorce happens, naturally the beta man is STILL there… often RIGHT THERE I would think, ready to swoop in. Very strange… but a clear reality to me.
Speaking of backup plans:
I’m Sorry, But You’re Just Not The Man I Hoped You Would Become When We Got Married
http://www.theonion.com/articles/im-sorry-but-youre-just-not-the-man-i-hoped-you-wo,37061/
Honestly, it’s almost as if you’re the exact same man I married.
Where’s the hopeless romantic who would prepare me a home-cooked meal and rub my shoulders after a long day at work who resides only in an artificial reality I mentally conjured? My knight in shining armor who would surprise me with roses and champagne on our anniversary if he weren’t just a desperate projection of what I wanted in a husband? The strong, sensitive man of my dreams who my friends and family repeatedly told me I would never meet if I married you?
@Lyn and Cane: Can’t we all just get along? Lyn gives a lot of religious instruction but I have not seen the instruction on wifery from him. You know those Catholics, it’s p n v all the time over there and not much creativity. I think the truth is that Cane has a crush on Lyn.
@Marge: “men are basically raped by frivorce. Which I agree with. But then, they say that women who frivorce are worse off? Honestly, pick one. Either men are worse off, or women are?”
It is not a zero sum game. Men are raped by frivorce. The woman maintains her standard of living for a few years while the man’s goes down in most cases. THEN, magically (like a phoenix rising from the ashes) the man improves himself and, now unshackled from the albatross wife, he comes out way ahead while the woman is now hooked to a much worse loser than her Husband ever was or she is a cat lady.
@Margaret59
Men (as a whole) have fewer reqiurements for happiness than women (as a whole). It’s the rare man who has dozenS of pairs of “worn once” shoes or other accessories, in comparison to women. It’s the rare man (means permitting) who sees the absence of an international vacation per year as a shame, in comparison to women (of means). Men don’t do “retail therapy”, *women* do “retail therapy”. Men use things until they fall apart, women are more likely to replace usable items for novelty’s sake. Men are more likely to pull extra shifts than women. Men are more likely to undergo extra training than women (especially if their former wives are holding onto the kids/denying court-ordered visitation.) Men take fewer sick days/vacation days/”me” days than women, even when working at jobs that allow those luxuries. Whether he’s a child of affluence, an immigrant who grabbed his slice of the American pie or a “good ol’ boy”, a weekend of sport(s) and alcohol and food will satisfy any man for decades. In comparison, even a relatively sedate woman will feel antsy after a season of indoor activity (never mind spending years of her life.)
My favorite example(s) for the change in circumstances post:divorce involve military men. Even with a halved pension and alimony/child support, their living expenses plummet when their monetary outlays are divested of
Shopping for fun
Second (or third) car, w/insurance and fillups and maintenance
Keeping up with the Joneses
Multiple trips to the commissary per paycheck…
Give a divorced E-7 about $500 extra a month (after bills and living expenses are paid) and he thinks he’s won the jackpot. Give his ex-wife the same $500 after expenses and she’s logging onto Facebook and complaining about how her ex-husband is “a worthless sack of sh*t who refuses to do right by her or her kids”.
I have a young(er) woman on my FB page as we speak. When she was married, her husband made it abundantly clear that all he wanted out of life was a comfortable home and a full tank of gas. So, he handed his bank account to her and said, “Full fridge, 24-pack of beer, $200-300 set aside for emergencies, use whatever you need when those things are satisfied.” When she divorced him, she was spending $1000/month out of a $2500/month salary for him and using the rest on herself. Post-divorce, she’s receiving the same $1500/month, but she’s using that check to pay for housing and utilities and food (and not on 600-count thread bed sheets or day spas or liquor and condoms, tee hee.) He’s received a second promotion, she’s used his GI Bill benefits to earn a BS in BS ($54K to learn about Shakespeare’s potty mouth, money well spent/sarc.) He’s able to pay his bills, stock his fridge and cooler *and send her an extra $500/month for their children* **AND put aside $500/ month for his post-military life** ***AND BUY A HOUSE***! She, OTOH, moved to a city that turned her support payments into maintenance fees, while forcing her to spend almost 50% of her post-taxes check to stay afloat. He lives on $2599/month and is happy, she **gets** $2000/month from him, earns another $2000/month and is miserable because she hasn’t visited Curaçao since 2008. I’ll stress that again: her monthly monetary input is 65% higher than his, but he’s happy and she’s miserable (and she isn’t even living in NY/LA or an equivalent, where she’d have to earn an extra $1000/month for the lifestyle that she’s leading right now…)
I’m Sorry, But You’re Just Not The Man I Hoped You Would Become When We Got Married
MarcusD I’m convinced this is actually a common hamsterization used by frivorcing women.
Pingback: Lightning Round – 2014/10/01 | Free Northerner
There are lots of Plan B’s…
I keep thinking of that Julia Roberts movie (no Dalrock, not Eat Pray Love, the one before it) My Best Friend’s Wedding. Basically, that is a plan B. I think the term kids use for this now is a “safety.” She cuts a deal with her best friend Dylan McDermitt when they are both like 12, where if both of them are still single at age 30, they must marry each other. They are each other’s “safety.” So, they jokingly do that since…. since… they have nothing better to do and they are kids and 30 is like a million years away and it will never happen and whatever….
…17 years later, both are still single and now Julia Roberts (desperate to get married) is actually looking forward to invoking her Plan B until he meets Cameron Diaz. And gets engaged. So now Julia Robert has to throw the whole wedding for her own ends, and hillarity ensues.
I guess I don’t have a major problem with the above Plan B because (well) they weren’t divorced ahead of time and are just trying to “trade-up” the way some of these Plan B ladies are. But I don’t think those things are all that common now, not that they ever were.
A Woman’s Story: Redefining Marriage Hurts Women Like Me–and Our Children
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=912253
Serious lie?
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=912292
I don’t enjoy being a mom
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=912162
How Can I Encourage My Husband to Come Home from Work on Time? (Oi…)
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=912217
Need advice / counsel on being friends with married person of opposite sex
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=912211
@JDG
I think that’s what’s so interesting about the Onion – that its idea of parody is actually (often) telling the truth. In other words, it’s funny because it is the truth, and we’re not used to hearing the truth. Perhaps it’s the incongruity theory of humor coming through?
The problem with beta orbiters (for women) is that they are just there… most women have them if they are attractive. They don’t just go away… even if a woman tries to push them away some…
I disagree with this. While it is true that beta orbiters don’t just go away the fact is, if a particular woman wants a particular man to leave her alone, she has the wherewithal to make that happen, especially when the latter is a beta. Women know how to be firm and to cut off communication from a man when it serves them well.
A more likely scenario is that the woman with a beta orbiter derives some reward (e.g. affirmation that she is desirable, or an easy Plan B) from her orbiting friends, and she subtly sends out signals to keep them around her. She may not do this all the time, but an occasional encouraging signal is all it takes to keep an uninformed man around. The women with beta orbiters know this well.
“The women with beta orbiters know this well.”
Alpha female with pack of beta orbiters = alpha male with soft harem.
Times a wastin’ to get that husband search rolling in a serious way. Women doing that mysteriously lose the orbiters, and gain a lifelong partner.
@MaMu1977 – excellent summation
One has to agree with Dave: women never have Beta orbiters unless that is what they desire. A Beta Orbiter provides a woman with confirmation of her attractiveness for here is a man who hangs around and gets nothing in return other than perhaps a smile; if he is of a practical nature she can have her plumbing and the like fixed for free; if he is more up-market she can imply to her female friends that she is too good even for him – and subtly raise her SMV. Should she grow tired of her Beta Orbiter disposing of him is not a problem; a withering look, a curt goodbye, will (he is Beta after all) send him both into the depths of misery and away from her. Men do not approach women unless they are receiving some sort of encouragement – what Simon Sheppard calls the tyranny of ambiguity – for the encouragement will never be in writing but by way of her posture or eye-contact or dress, or tone of voice. The Beta who hangs around is being encouraged to do just that.
One also have to agree with Dave that when men make up their minds they will do so quickly; the woman who has to coax her man into a proposal knows deep in her heart that he is not interested. When men shop it is in and out of the shop in five minutes; the same would be true when they go wife hunting – how often does one hear of men who have proposed within a day or so of meeting – I can think of at least four men I know or know of who did that.
When I read about Beta Orbiters I’m reminded of a few years ago, when many women claimed to be the victim of ‘stalkers’. I believed at the time (and still do) that the women were encouraging the stalkers, though in such a way as to give themselves plausible deniability. For example: “I’m going to the Rose and Crown tonight at 10.00 pm and I forbid you to be there…” As mentioned wrt orbiters, the women clearly got some gratification from the whole business.
This is HUGE because I just learned what a ‘beta orbiter’ is. I’ve been referring to this as a ‘can of beans’. The manosphere is full of phenomenon that I’ve observed and would like to read about, but have a hard to focusing in on given topic because I don’t know the lingo. Anyway, ‘beta orbiter’….brilliant.
I’ve found 100% of women I’ve dated to have a backup plan under the ‘we’re just friends’ label. The ‘beta orbiter’ doesn’t bother me. It is the Next Best Thing (hypergamy) threat that is glaringly evident to me, but her head will implode if she gained self-awareness of, that is hard to manage.
Also, I have a problem with the double standard. She keeps the backup plan and labels him a ‘friend’, where I am expected to cut all ties with the opposite sex. Getting on the same page with this has been damn near impossible. I am about to yield and start playing by their rules, which takes honesty out of the relationship, which makes relationships less intimate and rewarding.
Anyway, the study mentioned is fascinating and well timed.
There are a few account names on Jezebel that I recognize from CAF (ones unlikely to be by chance, either). It doesn’t really surprise me, to be honest. The site has been on a downward trend since it started.
There are a few traditional (leaning) Catholic forums like Fisheaters (which appears to be down at the moment). They do take a hard line against radtrads, though (http://www.fisheaters.com/abouttheforum.html#radtrad). It is interesting to see that they’ve gotten more liberal over time, as well. I guess the Overton window applies to all.
I thought that Fisheaters was more “neo-Cat” oriented, which would explain their issues with the Trads. Catholicism, as I see it today (at the remove of ~15 years) seems to be split in four factions: Trads, Neo-Cats, Libs and the “amorphous middle”. CAF seems to be amorphous middle/Lib mix.
I am mildly confused here. First, Dalrock and others insist that men are basically raped by frivorce. Which I agree with. But then, they say that women who frivorce are worse off? Honestly, pick one. Either men are worse off, or women are? Assuming that women are the stupid frivorcing party. I just don’t get this dichotomy?
Different ways and times.
In the immediate aftermath, it’s most common that the man is set back quite a bit — financially, but also in terms of contact with kids, displacement of friendships and living arrangements, health, and so on. Women seem to fare better in the early going because they tend to “win” the divorce.
As time goes on, men recover after a number of years. Women seem to plateau. That’s why the stats indicate that men do better after divorce, financially — in the very long run, that is often true. It is rarely true in the first five to ten years, however.
In terms of future relationships, who is able to do better very much depends on the timing of the divorce relative to age. Women who are under 35 will have an easier time remarrying than women over 40, all things being equal, and a harder time remarrying than divorced men (provided the man is in shape, has a good job, etc.). Women who divorce post-45 are going to struggle quite a bit more in that area, generally, than a 45 year old divorced man will, due to the way the attraction market works. That is made worse by the data (which has been floating around the internet in the past few weeks) which says that beginning around 40, women tend to prefer men who are slightly younger than they are — which is generally not the men who are in the market for a woman who is 45+ unless she is an absolute stunner a la some of the Hollywood actresses of that age (and almost no real world 45+ women are like that, if we are being honest). So there is a mismatch there.
I know an example of this via a friend. The woman — who is a friend of this friend — is in her mid 50s, and has been divorced since her mid-40s. She won’t date men who are over 50 (“they’re too old”, “they’re no fun”, “I don’t act like I’m that age”, etc.). This is a Christian woman, by the way, who runs a Bible Study group for women. She’s not terrible looking for a woman in her mid 50s, but she’s a woman in her mid 50s. Needless to say, there aren’t very many dogs barking up that tree.
It’s that kind of thing that we are talking about. You have to look at the short term and then the long term and also look at different areas (financial, relationship, happiness, etc.) to really get an assessment of who does better overall, and who is “ahead” at what number of years after the divorce (because it often changes over time).
Marcus, the story in that first link is awful. A man left his marriage (of nearly ten years and two children) because he decided that he’s gay and wanted to be with another man. She’s right to be outraged at the turn of events, but – once again – churches worry about the 1-2% of the population that is gay and ignore a divorce rate of 38% among church-goers. Matthew 23:24 says, “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.”
I thought I would take a few paragraphs of this woman’s truly sad story and re-write it from the perspective of a man whose wife left him for her “Plan B Man” rather than a woman whose husband who left her for a gay man.
______________________________
Every time a new state redefines marriage, the news is full of happy stories of divorced couples and their new families. But behind those big smiles and sunny photographs are other, more painful stories. These are left to secret, dark places. They are suppressed, and those who would tell them are silenced in the name of “marriage equality.”
But I refuse to be silent.
I represent one of those real life stories that are kept in the shadows. I have personally felt the pain and devastation wrought by the propaganda that destroys natural families.
The Divorce
In the fall of 2007, my wife of almost ten years told me that she was unhappy and that she wanted a divorce. In an instant, the world that I had known and loved—the life we had built together—was shattered.
I tried to convince her to stay, to stick it out and fight to save our marriage. But my voice, my desires, my needs—and those of our two young children—no longer mattered to her. We had become disposable, because she had embraced one tiny word that had become her entire identity. Being unhappy trumped commitment, vows, responsibility, faith, motherhood, marriage, friendships, and community. All of this was thrown away for the sake of her new identity.
Try as I might to save our marriage, there was no stopping my wife. Our divorce was not settled in mediation or with lawyers. No, it went all the way to trial. My wife wanted primary custody of our children. Her entire case can be summed up in one sentence: “I am female, and I deserve my rights.” It worked: the judge gave her practically everything she wanted. At one point, he even told my wife, “If you had asked for more, I would have given it to you.”
I truly believe that judge was legislating from the bench, disregarding the facts of our particular case and simply using us—using our children— to help influence future cases. In our society, women are seen as marginalized victims who must be protected at all costs, even if it means stripping rights from others. By ignoring the injustice committed against me and my children, the judge seemed to think that he was correcting a larger injustice.
My wife had left us for her new lover. They make more money than I do. There are two of them and only one of me. Even so, the judge believed that she was a victim. No matter what I said or did, I didn’t have a chance of saving our children from being bounced around like so many pieces of luggage.
______________________________
In the original story before I “flipped the sexes” the nice ladies at Catholic Answers Forum felt her pain… as they should. The woman who wrote the original article was terribly wronged, and the rest of the story is even worse than the portion I modified. But if a man had written in with the same story that I wrote, there would be little sympathy for him. He would be told that he must have done something bad to drive her away. He would be accused of abuse. He would be told that it is his duty to “Man up” and send checks to his ex-wife and her new lover “for the sake of his children.”
Her story is the story of millions of men whose wives decide to “Plan B” them. Those men and their children are largely ignored at places like CAF and FotF. I think the only way that most “churchians” would criticize a woman for nuking her marriage and marrying someone else would be if her new partner was a lesbian.
@girlwithadragonflytattoo
The problem with beta orbiters (for women) is that they are just there… most women have them if they are attractive. They don’t just go away… even if a woman tries to push them away some
Well most women don’t try to push them away. They are useful resources. Even they go away, they start complaining: “Good friend, why did you get away? I miss our friendship so much”. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt (in my blue pill days).
But you are right. Even if they are pushed away, they usually stay. They have seen movies when the woman despises the man at the beginning and they end up together at the end. Beta orbiters are the worst.
About Hosea,
I don’t disagree with any of the comments about Hosea. I was not making any point that we need to man up – but if all we get from Hosea is a story about justice we might be missing the big picture. Modern Christians tend to down play the justice of God in favor of forgiveness, but downplaying forgiveness to emphasize justice would be a mistake as well. Gomer is accepted back as a wife and forgiven as a metaphor for how much God is willing to forgive Israel and us, not only as a statement of the deplorable state of Israel. Of course repentance is necessary, but God wants to forgive us. He is not miserly about it. None of that means anyone should marry a slut.
In the story I was relating from the TV show the couple was married, thus complicating things greatly. How each of us would deal with forgiveness of that degree would be trying and I have no answers. Like Darlock said, if the husband just glazes over it with love for the baby she may never be faced with the reality of her sin and cannot repent.
BTW, not a thread on catholicanswers, but on a dating forum… “Should I tell my bf of two years I used to be an escort?”
http://www.girlsaskguys.com/relationships/q1162215-should-i-tell-my-boyfriend-of-2-years-i-used-to-be-a-working
And most of the answers say it’s none of his business, with one saying, “there’s really no difference between an escort and a girl with a lot of ex boyfriends…”
Did Hosea’s wife ever repent?
http://www.forbes.com/2011/03/10/patricia-kluge-lifestyle-billionaire-bankruptcy-estate.html
Enough said.
Sorry, I did sort of run away from comments. I think that, Novaseeker said it best. Long-term vs short-term benefits. I hate to admit it, but that is what is what I have seen in my fellow women. Le sigh. Some find long-term benefits from frivorce, most do not.
However, I also see men marrying the hottest woman they can get, with no interest in whether that woman is really a decent risk for a wife and mother. Men do not get a pass, here. Men will take what they can get, without any consideration of the future of their family.
Margaret, men don’t get a pass anywhere; that’s kinda the point. Is it really necessary to police all discussions of female sin and make sure that 50% of the time is spent on man-bashing for fairness’s sake?
As for your claims, they’re nonsense. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a man marry the hottest woman he could get with no consideration for her other qualities. I’m sure it happens, but it’s certainly not common. A man wants a woman who’s hot AND a good mother, companion, cook, etc. And no, most men do not “take what they can get, without any consideration of the future of their family.” That’s a lie and an insult, and you should apologize. Why do you hate men?
LOL, I do not hate men. You may be right, but I have (anecdotally) seen men do just what I said. What evidence do you have to the contrary? I am well aware that correlation does not equal causation.
Look, Cail, I have a daughter very happily married. And one who is hoping to be happily married. I am not at all against men. My older daughter is really submissive, although she would deny it, lol.
“What evidence do you have to the contrary?”
You misplace the burden of proof.
Nonsense, desidrian. Those who make the scientific theory must have the burden?
For instance, If I say Stan Musial is the greatest baseball player of all time, it is incumbent for me to prove he is, indeed the greatest, no?
I think margaret59 makes a valid point as far as it goes. Back in my younger days (Junior Captain time frame), a young E3 (Brad-Something) started going to my church. Good kid… bit of a romantic, but he got mixed up with a bad girl. She was a bitch and a slut, but hotter than Hell’s Kitchen, and he fell for her hard. He thought he “won” when she asked him to help her move out of her boyfriend’s apartment. Not long after that they got engaged. As I was on the church board at the time I tried to talk the pastor out of marrying them on the basis of 2 Corinthians 6:14, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” He said that she made a profession of faith a day or two prior, and that he was going to marry them in the church.
It wasn’t real. I think they attended church once or twice after the wedding, then they stopped showing up at all. I ran into him a few months later and he was miserable… she got him out of the fellowship of believers, she basically kept his balls in your purse, and she called the shots. I lost track of them after that, but I doubt it ended well. He was dumb and naive, but the pastor let him down as well, since they came to him to perform the wedding and he didn’t tell that naive young kid to snap out of it. Nobody likes it when somebody steps up and tells uncomfortable truths, but that’s what men do… that’s what men of God ought to do more than anyone.
But Cail is spot-on with his response: men don’t get a pass anywhere. But if a woman does what Brad did she walks away with cash and prizes… and if she gets knocked up, with kids and CS as well. When a guy does that he just gets the shaft.
I never said he was wrong about his idea about what happens to general men.
I would never say that all women deal with what I did. Or what my 14 year old girl did. But I must say, I am getting cranky about saying it is all good if men do it?
I understood your point, margaret, but surely you know that there are thousands of outlets where male conduct is criticized without anyone feeling the need to say, “Women do it too.” Even when women are objectively worse than men – such as initiating domestic violence, which is almost always presented as something that men to do women, even though women do it more than men do. The tiny corner of the internet known as the man-o-sphere is the one place where men can discuss things where the “Men do it too” can generally be dropped. Yes, yes… we all know that some men do bad things. How could we not know, since it’s all we hear all the time? As a woman you simply have no idea what it is to be constantly reviled by the society in which you live… even most men have bought into the idea that, “Men are scum.” Here, the fact that men occasionally screw up can generally go unsaid unless it’s germane to the topic. Unlike what women experience, there are no societal pressures or reams of case law that get men off the hook for their mistakes.
I believe that was Cail’s point.
@Novaseeker
I thought that Fisheaters was more “neo-Cat” oriented, which would explain their issues with the Trads. Catholicism, as I see it today (at the remove of ~15 years) seems to be split in four factions: Trads, Neo-Cats, Libs and the “amorphous middle”. CAF seems to be amorphous middle/Lib mix.
The perception of it, I think, varies slightly from person to person. CAF bans people almost without thought, and if the the banned individuals are interested in Catholic discussion, they go elsewhere. A number of people on FE took that route, which may explain why it has become more liberal over time.
As best as I can tell, the “radtrad” notice was added in February of this year, which is about five years after the forum opened (it could be indicative of liberalization). Why it was added well after founding is left to long-time members of the forum to explain, I think.
@Lyn87
But if a man had written in with the same story that I wrote, there would be little sympathy for him. He would be told that he must have done something bad to drive her away. He would be accused of abuse. He would be told that it is his duty to “Man up” and send checks to his ex-wife and her new lover “for the sake of his children.”
My suggestion is that you post your modified story on CAF and screenshot the reactions to it (or archive it: http://archive.today/). We can test the hypothesis that there is an empathy gap between the sexes.
Dalrock,
I thought you might like this great (inadvertent) bit of truth from a new study on marriage by Pew (via NPR).
“Men were less likely than women to have never tied the knot, and the less educated those men were, the less likely they were to marry. That wasn’t true for women: Women of all education levels were about as likely to not be married.”
The ugly truth: Poor guys have a hard time attracting wives, and unattractive women have a hard time attracting husbands. Male MMV depends on achievement, Female MMV is independent of achievement. In other words, there are unattractive women in all socio-economic groups. And education doesn’t have the same positive effect on female MMV as it does on male MMV.
(In fact education itself is probably making women less marriageable. You would expect higher average rates of marriage among educated women because they have fewer government-welfare-driven incentives to stay unmarried, they tend to be thinner and healthier, better dressed, etc. than the less educated, etc. But “education” these days has negative effects on women that offset the higher propensity of higher class women to get married. It often involves large debts which can deter suitors, it indoctrinates women with harmful feminist ideas which are not attractive to men, it encourages and abets promiscuity, and it misleads women into thinking that their MMV prospects will remain high in their late 30’s after they have the degrees and the careers they want.)
Anyway, I wanted to bring the quote to your attention and get your take on it.
IBB, if you want a fictional example of a potential ‘plan B’ setup told from the perspective of a former ‘Beta orbiter’ reminiscing on the past, then there is an anime/manga titled “5 Centimeters per Second” (I know, it’s not exactly a movie, so feel free to replace it with a more fitting example).
It shows that even the proverbial ‘Beta orbiters’ are most likely better off if they move on with their lives.
No one has said that. You continue to try to shift the discussion from women’s behavior to men’s. Why? Why does one single discussion of women’s bad behavior bother you so much that you have to derail it?
You’re backpedaling now on your claim that men act with no regard for their families, but it would be better if you simply retracted it. This isn’t a NAMALT argument; you claimed men in general do that, and men in general do not. Men in general care a great deal about their families, even spending great money and effort to try to hold their families together when their wives blow them up. Men who act with no consideration for their families are rare, so your assertion was a lie, and a blatant attempt to derail us with “But men do it too!”
Yes, men are sinful too, just as sinful as women. Stop the presses! Can we go back to the topic of women’s behavior now?
Also, I have a problem with the double standard. She keeps the backup plan and labels him a ‘friend’, where I am expected to cut all ties with the opposite sex. Getting on the same page with this has been damn near impossible. I am about to yield and start playing by their rules, which takes honesty out of the relationship, which makes relationships less intimate and rewarding.
At the risk of appearing like a white knight, I have to say that it is really not her fault that you found yourself in this situation. If anything, it’s your fault.
You see, women generally approach relationships like a business, and they tend to negotiate the terms, even when they don’t appear to be doing so. Some of us men generally assume that when a woman makes a declaration, or a demand, she is laying down a law. No; she is merely negotiating. If you agree to her terms, it’s because you are happy with those terms. As I once read in a magazine, “in business, you don’t get what you deserve; you get what you negotiate”. Love is a type of business. You invest resources (time, effort, money, emotion, etc) and reap rewards (companionship, pleasure, status, etc).
In my line of work, I negotiate contracts almost constantly, and I have quickly learned that the other party would get my services for free, if at all possible, even though I make them tons of money every single day. When they asked me to do a job for, say 30% less than what others had people charged for the same job, I don’t get angry; I merely show them why they should pay me 20% more than the previous guy charged. This has helped me in so many ways to get paid for my services at a rate higher than the average.
Also, I have a problem with the double standard.
Again, there is no double standard here. She is telling you the terms of the relationship she wants with you. In other words, she is looking out for own interests.
She keeps the backup plan and labels him a ‘friend’, where I am expected to cut all ties with the opposite sex.
The question is, does this work for you? If not, then say so, and lay down your own terms.
Getting on the same page with this has been damn near impossible….
She is the one you need to tell this. She is not forcing you to agree to her terms.
I am about to yield and start playing by their rules, which takes honesty out of the relationship, which makes relationships less intimate and rewarding.
Maybe less intimate and less rewarding to you, but certainly not to her. She is happy to be with you on her terms, because you did not lay down your terms of being with her. Again, it’s your fault, not hers.
As you wrote, you were about to start playing by their rules, not yours. In other words, you jettisoned your rules, and submitted to theirs. Who is to blame here?
And, remind me again: why in the world should a fully grown man allow a woman to make relationship rules for them?
Theasdgamer,
I assume you encourage your wife to go out to her favorite bar to flirt and dance with other men, right?
A married man flirting and dancing with other women; what could go wrong?
Keeping a wife miserable by emotionally manipulating her fear of you being unfaithful doesn’t seem like a good marriage in any sense of the word.
I cringe that any man would take up your example.
I pray you learn how to be a strong leader in your home without the “dread game” crap.
[D: Indeed. Welcome.]
“There is no need for a Plan B, because it distracts from Plan A”
-Street workout teacher.
Good advice for wives. In fact, if half of the things that they are told by their various gurus, personal trainers ad infinitum were applied, husbands of the world would be happy and there would be no need for sites like these.
Spike says… “if half of the things that they [wives] are told by their various gurus, personal trainers ad infinitum were applied, husbands of the world would be happy and there would be no need for sites like these.
… starting with, “Put down the cake and get on the elliptical!”
No married person should have close friends of the opposite sex. And it’s extremely easy to get rid of orbiters for any woman-dress modestly, don’t smile or act friendly, etc. Unless they’re psycotic, they won’t hang around for long; no normal man wants to hang around where he’s not wanted. The problem comes (and others have addressed this) women lie about not wanting attention.
@Mom
Keeping a wife miserable by emotionally manipulating her fear of you being unfaithful doesn’t seem like a good marriage in any sense of the word. I cringe that any man would take up your example. I pray you learn how to be a strong leader in your home without the “dread game” crap.
It’s been said here and elsewhere many times before, but I’ll repeat it.
1. Women do not want a husband who will cheat but they do want a husband that *could* cheat.
2. Never listen to the advice women give about relationships. Observably, the best bet is to do the opposite of the advice they give.
3. Instead of listening to what women say, watch what they do.
Observe what theasdgamer wrote:
Mrs. Gamer has been pushing for me to stop going out alone to my country bar, which would end Soft Dread. Of course, I can’t allow soft Dread to end, since that wouldn’t be good for the marriage.
You don’t know either of them, but after being accused of having a girlfriend he employed some basics of game and defused the situation. They had a happy ending. Notice also that he says that to *stop* with the soft dread would not be good for their marriage. His call to make.
I’ll go ahead and be judgmental here by saying that a married woman that wants to stay married should not have close female friends that are divorced. A married man that wants to stay married should know a few guys who have been frivorced to understand why the game never ends.
Oops, forgot to make the key point: A husband that *could* cheat = SoftDread. He gave her the comfort she needed, the SoftDread supplied the tingles, they got the happy ending. He can answer if he chooses, but it seems to me that if he believes his marriage needs the dread, there are other factors involved. I can think of lots of factors that push a wife’s SMV too close or even above that of her husband, in which case the wife has to be handled very carefully or the contempt sets in and next stop is typically divorce.
Mom says:
October 2, 2014 at 9:32 am
This. It is only in the ever mutable definition of the term ‘friend’ that we even discuss such things. I have my doubts as to the likelihood of success of true friendship between even unmarried persons of the opposite sex based on the idea that however that relationship is defined at various points in time will vary based on the romantic entanglements (up to and including marriage) of the ‘friends’. The extent to which same-sex relationships do not vary thusly is therefore evidence that the concept of opposite friendship is illusory.
BTW, the last comments at the last link to CAF (from MarcusD) on the topic are not as bad as I’ve seen there on the topic.
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Sorry, I did sort of run away from comments. I think that, Novaseeker said it best. Long-term vs short-term benefits.
To be blunt, studying the men that Novaseeker and Cail Corishev refer to as recovering in the longer term from divorce involves a concept called “survivor bias”. IN the investment world it refers to 20-20 hindsight regarding stocks, bonds, etc.
In the divorced man world, it means “those men who did not kill themselves”. There’s no long term benefit in shooting yourself in the head with a .45, margaret, yet men do it every year, every month, every week. A man in the divorce machine is at least 4 times more likely to kill himself than a man of the samse age, income, etc. who is not being divorced.
There is no, none, not any increased risk of sucide for women who divorcing or being divorced.
Something women should bear in mind when posturing on the subject, in my opinion.
The capacity of women to indulge in wishful thinking can not be overstated. I know a formerly beautiful now wrinkled 50+ wreck of a secretary who has the hots for me. She is single due to bad choices in men. I have never been interested in her (I only got to know her when she was post 40 so never knew her when she was hot) and have never given her any indication to this effect. Yet whenever she sees me talking with or dancing with any girl (invariably decades younger than her) she looks visibly upset and sometimes will storm off the scene. Then a few days later she will act friendly towards me in a way that indicates that she still has hope for me. This is despite me not having shown the slightest interest in her over the past decade that I have worked in the same office as her. I suspect that many of the backups that these women think they have are as unlikely as this.
On the other hand I see that virtually any young woman, (especially in their early 20s but also older ones) will have many many orbiters and expressions of interest, almost constantly. Virtually any man, (single or otherwise) who chats them up or is a facebook friend probably has some hope of getting her, despite her, and sometimes they, being in a relationship. In fact, most men that I come across are creepy orbiters and self interested white knight backstabbers who are eager to take someone elses woman if they can and only fail because, with all their faults, most women are actually faithful to the man they are in a relationship with, at least in the short to medium term and are at some level disgusted at the desperate orbiter’s approaches.
I , (I would like to think not uniquely among the male population) tend to avoid even friendship with women in relationships because I know that in most cases the women will either suspect or hope for something more, even as they indulge the friendship out of either politeness or for other motives. This seems to make me more attractive to women, to the chagrin of some of the orbiter wannabe scum. I would like to think that this is because women do have a spark of morality in them and do give some credance to a good character in a man.
Margaret: Sometimes the man gets screwed over in a divorce, sometimes the woman does. There are lots of variables, and a million possible scenarios.
Women who are married to an unemployed or underemployed man, or a man who has a gambling or substance abuse problem, typically come out way ahead when they divorce. They are now eligible for all kinds of government benefits, and the man-child is out of the house. Even if he contributes nothing to the family post-divorce, the woman and the kids will probably have a higher standard of living.
Women married to very high earners often whine about how tough they have it after the divorce, but they and their children typically keep most or all of their lifestyle, at least in the short term. The bad news often comes later, when the man re-marries and has a second set of children. Oftentimes Wife #2 will not want to see a plug nickel go to Family #1. In particular, the upscale college plans of the children often end up being derailed.
It’s the middle-income couples where you really see the financial devastation of one or both parties, especially if the children are young, because childcare costs are assessed by the court on top of child support payments, and at least one parent needs to stay in the “good” school district to keep the children from losing all of their friends. “It’s a lot of money for him to have to pay every month, but she can’t live on it.” It’s the kids from these families who end up badly dressed, missing out on piano lessons and orthodontic work, and moving from better neighborhoods and schools to worse ones. Often several downward moves are made before the mother and her children arrive at their final Trailer Park of Despair.
Back in the 60s/70s/early 80s, before the government started micromanaging it, child care was a lot cheaper than it is now. Relatives of my daughter were paying $1100 per month for one child at a daycare center about a year ago. A divorced woman with two or more young children is simply not financially viable unless she is earning a high salary or receiving very substantial child support/alimony payments. This is especially true in areas where housing costs are extremely high.
Many people initiating a divorce would re-think it, or at least postpone it, if they fully understood the financial implications of divorce. The lower the incomes, the bigger the pre-existing debt load, and the younger the children, the tougher it is going to be on everybody, and in many of these cases one person or the other is left in a completely impossible situation where a downward spiral, once started, is unstoppable.
Laura says:
October 4, 2014 at 9:38 pm
“A divorced woman with two or more young children is simply not financially viable unless she is earning a high salary or receiving very substantial child support/alimony payments.”
Given that:
1) most divorces in marriages involving children without proving traditional legal (e.g., “real”) grounds are filed for by woman;
2) most divorced men will break under “very substantial child support/alimony” payment requirements (to the point they vanish, refuse to work as there is no point, or even consider homicide against the apparent source of their oppression);
there should be a return to presumptive father custody for children not currently being breastfed in divorce that we had for most of our history on this continent. The current experiment in presumptive mother custody is a clear failure on all but feminist (e.g, criminally psychotic) grounds.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2779643/Two-female-teachers-accused-group-sex-student-16-freed-bail-salacious-details-emerge-videotaped-threesome.html
Is JAIL a back-up plan?
Two white teachers (32 & 24) from La .. one married with three kids engage in Lesbian love gone bad (sarcasm).
Seems these two found a 16 year old (17 is age of consent and 21 for students) young black male to have sex with.
More than once and supposedly on video.
I guess the american press left all this inter-racial, LGBT, video (child pornography), married with kids info out .. but what could be the reason .. sarcasm .. It’s sad that I had to go to a uk newspaper to get the whole story.
Wake Up UhMerIkA
The reason why this is not in the news here is because… its not newsworthy. For 16 year old boys, this type of situation is a dream come true.
Its a crime, I’m glad those two lesbians (if you actually believe in that crap about lesbianism) are going to jail, and the boy is a victim, but you are not going to find a whole lot of sympathy here for the boy because… he’s a boy.
If it was the other way around (two gay men, if you believe in that crap) with a 16 year old girl, it would have made the news and the girl’s father would want those two guys killed. Yes, there is a double standard and they should be.
Mom,
No PERSON (single, married, divorced, anything) should have close friends of the opposite sex. That is because (pure and simple) men and women cannot be friends.
IBB ..
Don’t take this personally .. (re: your manhood) .. it is for illustration purposes.
“If it was the other way around (two gay men, if you believe in that crap) with a 16 year old girl, it would have made the news and the girl’s father would want those two guys killed. Yes, there is a double standard and they should be.”
*shaking head with disbelief*
This is why we have lost any future for america.
IBB did you raise a white flag when you surrendered your manhood?
This is a sad day when boys are expendable to abuse and no one thinks it’s abuse.
You would fit in really good at the CDC where they changed the definition of rape.
That was a feminist that lead that change. And I wondered why no one even made a sound afterwards.
Because obviously a lot of men feel this way.
How do we expect a place at the table for men and boys rights with men like you speaking with great silence?
You’ve lost my respect .. I can hear you now ..
IBB to son .. “Good job son” .. Don’t worry about std’s .. pregnacy / children from this twist .. or the inability to ever form a bond with women in the future .. etc.
This thought process is a troubling issue for any true progress for our rights as men and boys.
If I had kids .. I would homeschool them for this and many other reasons.
IBB ..
Don’t take this personally .. (re: your manhood) .. it is for illustration purposes.
“If it was the other way around (two gay men, if you believe in that crap) with a 16 year old girl, it would have made the news and the girl’s father would want those two guys killed. Yes, there is a double standard and they should be.”
*shaking head with disbelief*
This is why we have lost any future for america.
IBB did you raise a white flag when you surrendered your manhood?
This is a sad day when boys are expendable to abuse and no one thinks it’s abuse.
You would fit in really good at the CDC where they changed the definition of rape.
That was a feminist that lead that change. And I wondered why no one even made a sound afterwards.
Because obviously a lot of men feel this way.
How do we expect a place at the table for men and boys rights with men like you speaking with great silence?
You’ve lost my respect .. I can hear you now ..
IBB to son .. “Good job son” .. Don’t worry about std’s .. pregnacy / children from this twist .. or the inability to ever form a bond with women in the future .. etc.
This thought process is a troubling issue for any true progress for our rights as men and boys.
If I had kids .. I would homeschool them for this and many other reasons.
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