Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”
4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.
— Eph 6:1-4 (NKJV)
Sunshine Thiry was skeptical of my statement in a recent post that tearing down fathers is a modern Christian Father’s Day tradition. Specifically, she was skeptical of my statement:
For Christian leaders [Father’s Day] brings out contempt for husbands and fathers, including the now traditional (if not obligatory) sermon tearing down men in front of their families.
She hadn’t noticed such a tradition, so when she went to church on Father’s Day she wanted to see how her pastor would handle it. Her pastor confirmed the tradition, taking time to explain to the congregation why he was deviating from it. Thiry quoted her pastor’s explanation in her post Do pastors tear down men on Father’s Day?
I have to tell you, it’s our goal on this Father’s Day weekend to lift you up and encourage you. And I have to tell you from history I’ve learned that often Father’s Day is one of the worst days that dads can ever choose to go to church. Because often it’s the only time churches feel like they’re going to have the ears of dads and so what they do is they plan to beat them up royally for all they’re not doing right. Ever been to one of those Father’s Day services? Oh man, I have. In fact, here in the early days of my ministry here, you know what we’d do? Oh man, we planned. We planned for you guys. And then what we did is we’d sing “Cats in the Cradle and the Silver Spoon”. And we’d talk about how you have so royally blown it, the world has gone to hell in a hand basket, and then we’d try and help you recover. And we wondered why dads didn’t like Fathers Day at our church. We don’t do that anymore. What we want this to be is an encouragement to you, we want this to lift you up, and I can’t think of a better story than Abraham’s because he’s like us – far from perfect. And yet he was used significantly from God.”
This tradition shouldn’t be surprising. Father’s Day is a day set aside to honor fathers. This doesn’t translate into modern Christian culture because honoring fathers is a truly alien idea. What would that even look like? Note that Thiry’s pastor doesn’t say that he will honor fathers, he says he will try to encourage them.
Keep in mind that this isn’t about one sermon, or just sermons on Father’s Day, or even about pastors. This is about modern Christians feeling profound discomfort with the idea of honoring fathers. This isn’t a biblical tradition, because the Bible is clear on the importance of honoring fathers. This is about modern Christian culture. Even when modern Christians set out to honor fathers, what they end up doing is tearing fathers down in front of their wives and children. Even worse, this is so deeply ingrained that no one notices. It doesn’t seem out of place because tearing down fathers in front of their families is what we always do. In the post Thiry is responding to I mentioned the movie Courageous. Note how well her pastor’s description of his previous Father’s Day sermons summarizes the plot of the movie:
We planned for you guys. And then what we did is we’d sing “Cats in the Cradle and the Silver Spoon”. And we’d talk about how you have so royally blown it, the world has gone to hell in a hand basket, and then we’d try and help you recover.
If you haven’t seen the movie, or if it has been a while, take a moment to watch the trailer for Courageous to see what I mean*. Despite the uncanny resemblance, Thiry’s pastor wasn’t ripping off the Kendrick brothers in his Father’s Day sermons, and they weren’t ripping him off either. This is the formula for approaching the topic of Christian fathers; tear the fathers down in front of their wives and children, and then try to inspire them to do better. As I noted above, this is the pattern even when modern Christians set out to buck the trend of tearing fathers down. This may be hard to believe, but the Kendrick brothers intended for Courageous to be the antidote to the secular denigration of fathers. They explained this during the production of the film in an interview with Past The Popcorn:
Interviewer: As Stephen [Kendrick] was saying this morning, you can start holding up Courageous as the antidote to the popular culture, which now denigrates the role of the male—which rarely prevents viable, positive role models. As a critic, I can point to that as a very unique and special thing that comes out of your work. Do you feel that’s something that’s naturally come out of your work as something God-given, or is that something you’ve really focused on—honed and developed?
Alex Kendrick: I would say that we’re driven to do that. That’s the heartbeat behind what we’re doing, other than the general desire to please the Lord. When I turn on the TV—and we don’t watch TV much any more at all—every other character, every other commercial, demeans and devalues the role of the man. It’s terrible. Just take note of the commercials that you see when you’re watching TV. How many of them make the woman look like, “Well, I’m the smart one. The man can’t figure this out, but I can.” And while there’s plenty of demeaning behavior spread around to both sexes, it does seem heavily biased to be anti-father, anti-man. And in movies, when parents are having problems with their children, things get resolved by the parents saying to the children, “Oh, I’m sorry. I was wrong all along. You were right.” I mean, even look at Finding Nemo. I love the movie! It’s very well done. But at the end, the father says, “I’m sorry, Nemo. You were right—I was too hard on you.” That seems to be a running theme.
Watch the trailer again, and note that even the trailer has all of the elements the Kendrick brothers are complaining about in secular entertainment. It has all of the elements they wanted Courageous to be the “antidote” for when they were making it. The fathers are failures and the wives are alternating between telling them what they are doing wrong and telling them the right way to do what they decide to do. The main character needs to learn to follow his son’s lead instead of the other way around (running vs building a shed), and in the end he apologizes to his teenage son for not being a good father and pledges to do better.
In a separate interview with CBN (updated link) Alex leveled the same criticism against secular entertainment:
Alex: Look at how media is portraying fathers today. You look at almost any commercial, and the father figure is the idiot, the goober, the guy who doesn’t get it. The wife or mother is the one who really knows what’s going on, the smarter one. And you can’t name one TV show right now that has a really good, honorable father. This generation is growing up with anti-heroes rather than heroes. Rather than Superman, truth, justice, and the American way, it’s now Bart Simpson and his dad, Homer.
Yet after Courageous, Alex went on to help a friend by appearing in the Christian movie Mom’s Night Out. If you aren’t familiar with the movie, it is so full of exactly these themes that it even shocked the feminists at Dame**:
And that’s the biggest problem with Moms’ Night Out: The moral of the story isn’t that the women are supposed to stay home and not have fun, but that the men are totally hapless morons without them around—and that this lesson is still being drilled into our heads in 2014. We’re supposed to feel better about this “men are total idiots, the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world” philosophy (and that latter piece of wisdom was actually uttered in the movie in case you missed the point). But this story of the helpless manchild is a disservice to men—and families—everywhere.
The feminists have it right in this case. Tearing down fathers is incredibly harmful to families. Why is it that even feminists can see what Christians cannot? Mom’s Night Out was a huge hit with Christian audiences, as was Courageous. These anti father themes didn’t stand out to Christians because Christian culture is even more anti father than secular culture is!
A Problem With Authority
At the root of the antipathy for fathers is a revulsion for husbands and fathers having authority. This is true for both secular and Christian culture. For modern Christians the reaction to biblical headship ranges from outright hostility to vocal ambivalence. This poses a serious challenge for those who want to tell Christian husbands and fathers to man up. How can they implore men to follow their God given obligation to lead their families without crossing this bright line and reminding everyone that men have authority which comes with this responsibility? In Fireproof the Kendrick brothers negotiated this by inverting the biblical roles of husband and wife, and teaching that a husband’s job is to win the heart of his wife. If a wife rebels against her husband or takes up with another man, this means her husband didn’t love her well enough. They followed this same non-threatening and non biblical pattern in Courageous with fathers and their children. They avoided the question of authority and instead focused on fathers winning the hearts of their children. Alex explains this in the CBN interview:
Alex: Here’s a principle that we say very clearly in the movie. If I have great conservative rules and regulations, and values in my home, but if I don’t have the heart of my children, they’re not going to listen to me. They will listen to the people that they think really care about them. And most of the time, if a dad is not engaged, it doesn’t matter what his views are. They’re going to listen to their friends. But if a dad captures the heart of his children, then he can speak into their lives, and they will listen, and value what he teaches them.
Harming the most vulnerable out of fear.
Thiry’s pastor mentioned that the tradition of tearing down men in front of their families caused fathers not to want to attend church. However, the discomfort of fathers is insignificant compared to the harm this is doing to the families of these fathers. We live in a culture where the family is under assault and wives and children are taught that rebellion is a virtue. The children most harmed by this are the ones having the most trouble honoring their fathers. This could be because the father has serious flaws, or it could be because the child is particularly rebellious. It could even be both. For good fathers with healthy families contempt for fathers from Christian culture merely introduces sand into the gears. Everything is harder than it needs to be, but they are able to power through despite the harm Christian culture causes. This isn’t the case for families who are struggling however. Nearly half of all marriages end in divorce, and large numbers of children aren’t even born to married parents to begin with. For families that are on the edge, for families who are suffering greatly, heaping contempt on the father only makes all of their existing problems worse.
Ironically the common defense of tearing fathers down in front of their wives and children is that it is an act of courage to fix struggling families. However, going with the flow and following the secular culture’s attack on fathers takes no courage, and injecting strife into fragile families doesn’t make them better.
*You can also see my review of the movie here.
**The still from Mom’s Night Out at the top of the Dame review captures this perfectly.
Pingback: Modern Christian culture’s deep antipathy for fathers. | Manosphere.com
Pingback: Modern Christian culture’s deep antipathy for fathers. | Neoreactive
Modern “christianity” may simply be targeting their core demographics. The majority of churchgoers seem to be those groups who are drawn to marriage most. In this era that means late 20s, early 30s women who have fallen off the carousel, and responsible, eager “holding out for the right woman” incel “men”.
The pastor only reinforces the contempt the born again wives have for their husbands, and dampens any guilt she may have. All judgement and shame is reserved for the husband, who will take it like a good sub just as he does at home. The wife loves this and makes sure that the whole family attends from now on.
The church leadership doesnt mind abandoning their core doctrine as long as their “inclusiveness” slows the decline of their hemoraging attendance rate. Anything to keep the money flowing. But they’ve got it backwards. Christianity started out with only a handful of people, under an environment of relentless persecution. But it flourished into the largest religion in the world, because it provided a timeless, immutable doctrine. Abandoning that doctrine for a temporary increase in popularity is folly. Nobody respects a prostitute.
to begin with, plz correct the word ‘modern’ into ‘postmodern’, thnx
http://socialmeems.com/2014/06/03/beautiful-advice-from-a-divorced-man-after-16-years-of-marriage/
Topical. I posted this at Heartiste. It’s a man whose wife of 16 years recently lowered the boom and he has 20 pieces of advice that women have been sharing the stuffing out of online. I bet you can’t guess what the summary of all 20 gems of advice boils down to……..
A few years ago we were at church on Fathers Day and the pastor spoke out that he didn’t want this to be another one of those sermons tearing men down.
Then that’s exactly what he did. My wife even laughed at it. This was before I discovered this blog and the manosphere in general, but that did tick me off.
Oh, and people mention Homer Simpson, but one of the original oafs was the father from the Bernstein Bears. Crummy books to begin with, and that just seals the deal. Yet “conservative” parents love them.
And of course, Abraham is a great example for fathers; God had to intervene to save both of his sons!
I hope you don’t mind my posting a link. https://youtu.be/hBaFJHUZ6IA
This is the only mention Father’s Day got at our church this year, and I found it incredibly insulting. It depicts a father with no authority, no manners, cute enough with the wife, and well-connected with the kids on a superficial level, but not remotely respectable. The part about the daughter and her boyfriend breaking up, with the father being a helpless bystander with no say in who she dates was the worst. Unless maybe the part where his son and he share a “manly” moment by stinking the women out of the room. That might be worse. Ugh.
I thought our church didn’t go for that caricature of fatherhood (certainly there’s been no hint of it in the preaching), but I guess it’s more pervasive than I thought.
This is one reason why I love that show The Middle. Besides being funny as hell and criminally underrated, the dad is never the buffoon. He’s a respectable, conservative father who doesn’t kowtow to the Mrs. and usually outperforms her when he has to take over for her. It’s refreshing.
@DrTorch:
My mother actually removed the Bernstein Bears books from our house over the issue. It really was very bad in those books.
Hell yeah!
Protestantism is rooted in rejecting Papal authority and replacing it with the authority of everyone (i.e., no one). Why should this be surprising?
It would really be refreshing if churchians collectively would stop insulting our collective intelligence and just come right out and admit that they despise the traditional family unit (i.e., the patriarchy) as prescribed by Scripture and as constituted for most of human history. If only they would be honest enough to put forward candidly what their behavior loudly proclaims: that they have no use whatsoever for anything the Scriptures have to say on marriage, family, and fatherhood because it clashes with the modernist secular humanism that is their real faith. The fact that they not only do not actively promote family formation among young men and women from within their congregations, but actively discourage it is but one indicator of their antipathy not only toward fatberhood, but stable families, in which a husband and father’s headship just might preclude so many of the problems (e.g., divorce, juvenile delinquency, teen pregnancy, substance abuse, etc.) that plague “Christian” families just as much as non-Christian ones. But of course that would rob power from the CEOs, er, pastors, SIW SJWs, and other frauds that infest churchian franchises today and that perpetuate the inertia and dysfunction that render these institutions so ineffective and irrelevant. Heaven forbid that a few strong fathers guide a church back to its scriptural moorings (a la Joseph of Jackson). Far too many undeservedly powerful people would have too much to lose.
K-Idea – the only pertinent point in his diatribe that I could find was number 9 – be silly.
@The Karamazov Idea
The List of 20 did indeed trigger my gag reflex, but many of the comments equally so. Particularly the women that gush – in effect: “ANY woman would submit in a heartbeat to a man who loves like this!” It’s like a 3-year old insisting they would be forever happy if only every meal included a 5 lb. bag of C&H sugar. But a 3-year old eventually grows up, unlike our culture which seems instead to double down with every passing year.
This is why Christians are seen as wimps and I believe is a major cause of atheism and the huge lack of respect for Christians in the culture.
http://www.returnofkings.com/66648/why-is-modern-christianity-so-wimpy
In my experience watching American TV, the worst shows for covert matriarchy are those directed at presenting a supposedly conservative family.
The worst feminist propaganda I ever saw was on an episode of The Cosby Show.
On the other hand, my wife has brought home a new thing called “Mom” from the library, which is pretty funny (if crude) and the women are portrayed as being at fault, as much or more than the men. So much so that it surely must make some viewers think, what those women need are some good, authoritative men.
To my eyes, a lot of American TV is fairly friendly towards male perspectives and masculine behaviour. Just not the “family shows”, which seem to go out of their way to neuter the father.
You say “modern Christian culture,” but my thoughts are:
-America was never a Christian country.
-The days of yesteryear when men were honored, Father Knows Best, etc…..what was the source of that? Was that really Christianity? And were all fathers honored?
I agree completely however that the “Let’s beat up on a man” mentality is what currently permeates every single ounce of media in this country, and the Church no longer recognizes it as an aberration.
@Dalrock (or anyone),
How would you recommend encouraging a father who has a lot of “sand in the gears”?
I tell my husband “you’re such a great Dad” quite a lot, as well as specific ways he is a good Dad. But every time he hears fathers/men torn down in sermons, or even TV shows, his response is feeling crushed and “I need to do better”.
It feels like this message out there undoes all my effort in building him up…
Spot on Dalrock. I’ve heard more than a few “tear down the fathers” sermons over the years, and they weren’t limited to father’s day. Mothers day sermons always were full of compliments. That all changed in recent years though. We are blessed with a Pastor who has a desire to seek the truth. When presented with facts about feminism and misandry in American churches (including ours), he actually took a look at what was really happening and made changes accordingly.
[D: Outstanding.]
TFH, there is a lot in what you say, but it is also possible that women are doing it deliberately, or at least semi-consciously:
https://davidcollard.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/women-policing-the-hierarchy/
This is precisely why I support gay marriage. If marriage itself was strong, I might have opposed gay marriage.
How can you support something that doesn’t even exist? There is no such thing as gay marriage. People call things all sorts of things, but that does not make the thing what it is called. Man + woman = marriage. Anything else is a fraud.
Mr.Roach,
I think the idea is to not argue the RCC here. I grew up under it, but found it deviated from the Scriptures too much. Believing in the authority of one man has some dangers as well, especially when that man can displace the father in a home. Note that it is woman man God, not woman man Pope God.
Julian,
My wife and I really like The Cosby Show, but he is quite a buffoon in many places and I can’t think of a single instance where she was wrong.
I skipped church on Father’s day since I am still working through the pain of being rejected by all my adopted children in favor of their birth father. I didn’t need reminders of that.
Quite disappointing when I realized that.
I can’t see even bothering voting in the next presidential election, though it is tempting to vote for the Democrat to speed the destruction and perhaps reduce the pain if it comes sooner.
I thought our church didn’t go for that caricature of fatherhood (certainly there’s been no hint of it in the preaching), but I guess it’s more pervasive than I thought.
Yep, it’s hard for women to see it.
Protestantism is rooted in rejecting Papal authority and replacing it with the authority of everyone (i.e., no one). Why should this be surprising?
Papal authority is rooted in falsehoods. Do you really want to go down this road on this thread?
Dalrock has searched for years for a church that is willing to course-correct in this way. Maybe you should connect your ‘Spartacus’ Pastor with this blog, so he gets more recognition.
We’ve already gone down this road. I’ve shared a link with Empath and would be willing to share with others I know I can trust, but I am unwilling at this time to go public with my location for obvious reasons.
BradA, I could tell you about the episode of The Cosby Show which offended me so much. I remember thinking, well, that will put young men off marriage. But it is depressing to contemplate such things.
As for Catholicism and Mr Roach, yes, I agree. I am still a Catholic, and my understanding is that there is a hierarchy of Christ, man and woman. This is all through scripture. In a limited sense, there is also a hierarchy in the church which reflects that. In theory, a woman is under her husband’s authority most directly as her head. Above him, in some respects only, is the parish priest, the bishop and, ultimately, the pope.
In the Catholic system, women are always under the authority of a man. Even the orders of nuns, although many of them seem keen to forget that.
The pope is constrained by scripture and tradition and the general thrust of both has been in support of the authority of the father and husband, mitigated by various considerations. Recent popes have been more or less “feminist”. John Paul II was quite strongly, Benedict much less so, and Francis is probably in between. He has made some feminist noises, but he has also referred to the authority of St Joseph in the Holy Family, at least tacitly. And he has refused to countenance women priests of course, and even women as top bureaucrats in Rome.
TFH, that is a good point about mothers and sons. I shall have to think about that.
Dear TFH:
Very interesting remarks, as usual.
A feral mother’s goal is to have her son be *her* servant, not some other woman’s. “Treat her like a queen and kiss her ass” is perfectly sound advice for such a woman to give. It keeps her son in this role, with her as the recipient of the son’s labor, rather than some other chick.
You know what I think? Nature created man and woman as a complimentary system, rather than to exist as “individuals” who wander around consuming without working, masturbating to internet porno, and reading cosmo.
Engineers who work at Lockheed Martin create fighter jets out of various parts. In the holistic role of the jet fighter, these parts do not fit nicely together. The jet fighter is made to perform at extremely high levels of stress, where it is very close to being pulled to pieces. The different parts of the jet fighter don’t “like each other” very much, but when they’re welded together, they can go at mach 3 and shoot guns out their wings and such.
Like the jet fighter, the pairbonded human couple is a system which is forced to perform at high levels of stress. We evolved* to work as a team, and while the different parts of the system are often being pulled violently apart, the system as a whole is able to survive difficult experiences.
Nature** created women and men not to get along perfectly, or to agree on everything, but to survive and raise kids in a hostile environment. Whether we like nature (or the environment, or whatever) is irrelevant. Nature doesn’t care that you’re unhappy in your marriage, or that you want to fuck some other wimminz, or whatever. Nature wants you to survive, and staying with your spouse is the way to do this.
This is the real crime of feminism, by the way. It’s not that they’re mouthy cunts or that they dye their hair blue. It’s that they have effectively (through social and legal pressures) ruined a system that evolved over millions of years, hindering people’s very survival in the process. Should all this free money dry up and living get more natural, a lot of people will probably die off, and it’s thanks to the feminists.
*or were created, if you prefer
** or God, the gods, etc.
Regards,
Boxer
Yes, Boxer’s point is a good suggestion. I would put it another way. It is to the advantage of mothers to keep sons around to help look after her and his siblings (assuming that early humans lived in small bands of a few families).
Another possibility is that mothers are inclined to give the “be a SNAG: girls love you for it” message because it is the received wisdom and that is what she would tell any young man. Alternatively, she may be worried that her son’s becoming an alpha could land him in trouble. Or hope that a beta son will enhance the well-being of her grandchildren. (And the likelihood that she will know them and have them near her.)
In a more Freudian sense, women have a lot of lingering and residual resentment against men, even those with good husbands. And giving bad, weakening advice to a family male may be a bit of “payback”.
I think it was Robert Trivers who pointed out some years back that the interests of parents and young are to some extent in conflict. (The theory of parent-offspring conflict.) So mothers’ and sons’ genetic interests will not necessarily be the same. They only share fifty percent of their genes.
In a wider sense, I have published the idea that the interests of the genes themselves drive sexual reproduction, not the interests of individuals within a species. If the interests of women were the only thing that mattered, women would reproduce without sex (asexually, like rotifers):
https://www.academia.edu/11776453/Why_sex_REALLY_evolved
JDG – “How can you support something that doesn’t even exist? There is no such thing as gay marriage. People call things all sorts of things, but that does not make the thing what it is called. Man + woman = marriage. Anything else is a fraud.”
Words have meaning. I have been yelling this from the mountain tops for years. The moment we, as men, decide that we can put any definition we want to any word we want, we have fallen (again) into the female trap of emotionalism.
It started with Adam and persists to this very day!
Dear Dalrock:
Protestant Christians have a distinct advantage here, over Mormons, Catholics or Jews, since they generally just have to follow the bible. Matthew 18:20 suggests that listening to one of these feminist lunatic pastors is totally unnecessary, and that it’s just as good (I’d argue better) to study the religious texts with family members, and to take the eucharist by themselves. In time, most men could find some serious friends to invite to their homegrown service, and community can spring up among them.
For all the other religious bros, who are obligated to go listen to some of these man-hating freaks, at least once in a while, I’d hope you would all protest in one way or another.
There are many ways to protest. The first rule ought to be to never, ever give one of these family-hating priests any of your money. These churches often have huge investment funds (some catholic and anglican dioceses are valued in the 8 digits in the USA) so they don’t need your money anyway.
It’d be extra funny to read about some serious bros taking over some churches through subterfuge, and then (surprise!) throwing some of these scroungy priests and rabbis into the streets. Feminist religious men need nothing more than to do some real work for a change, and most of them will realize the natural consequences of their poisonous teachings, so it’s all for the best. Try getting elected to the boards of some of these pozzed out churches/temples/synagogues, and then go to work. If you start encouraging the reading of the dalrock blog in the service, it’ll get press coverage, and I’ll come join you (I’m ready to convert to Christianity or Judaism if it’d mean I’d get to hang out with some actual men, for once.)
It’s coming up on 4 July. That’s revolution day. Resolve to topple some infrastructure and deconstruct the ideological apparatus. It’s the least you can do in the spirit of the holiday.
Regards,
Boxer
One thing I have noticed is that if a woman basically likes you, she will put up with a lot more so-called “sexism” and chauvinism than you would imagine. This applies to many wives, but also to other female relatives and acquaintances.
They may well complain, but they tend to stick around for more.
To give one example, I had a classic case of “mother finds your blog” a few years ago. I have cleaned up my blog quite a bit since then, but it did have some fairly graphic material on it once. My mother complained about the “attitude to women” shown on my blog.
Funny thing though. She stopped complaining quite quickly and seems to have made a full recovery.
(I did make the, I think, cogent argument to her that I had been offended by the increasingly crass behaviour of women all my life, and what I had done paled by comparison, at least to my mind.)
i hate being single
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=967770
Report from the field, generally corroborating the theme of this post.
On Father’s Day, I attended Sunday worship with Mrs. Wapiti and my 4 sons. I was hoping against hope that dads would be uplifted in the day’s sermon, as were mothers the month prior.
Unhappily, I was greatly disappointed. The lead-in to the sermon was a 2-min video about fatherlessness and the impact on father-absence on children. Which I suppose wouldn’t be so bad–it is, after all, factual–if the context about how most kids come to live in a father-absent home in the first place was provided–i.e., not because Dad voluntarily bailed, but because a choice mommy either involuntarily removed him from the family home or wasn’t invited to participate in the first place (in the case of unwed childbearing).
The sermon, administered by an associate pastor, followed bad with worse. This fellow’s heart was in the right place, I suppose, but he does a lot of prison ministry, and this experience skews his perspective. Consequently, his sermon berated men for being screw-ups, immature self-centered boys, and therefore failing to model a proper father mdel to their children and as a help-meet to those heroic mothers who then have to take up the slack. I suppose this exhortation would be appropriate for incarcerated men or ex-cons, but this was not the audience in attendance: family men who by and large have little if any direct experience with the penal system.
My whole family got up and left 10 minutes in. First time I had ever done that. Haven’t been back since, and unsure if we’ll return. As it is, we already habitually arrive late so as to miss the worship that tilts uncomfortably into Jesus-is-my-boyfriend, heaving-bosom territory.
@ Karamazov,
I see your “20 pieces of advice”–which some argue may have been written by a woman–and raise you this “10 Marriage Tips from a Woman’s Perspective“, written in response to that post, and also reportedly written by a woman.
Well, in the First Family of Christianity, the human father is an afterthought. So, there’s that.
@Dalrock
Nice Post!
@JDG
“”We are blessed with a Pastor who has a desire to seek the truth. When presented with facts about feminism and misandry in American churches (including ours), he actually took a look at what was really happening and made changes accordingly.””
The Evangelical Church that I attend is the same way.The Pastor(and good friend) started to look into the BS marriage laws,feminism and misandry.One of the main reasons was all the divorce and separation that was occurring among couples.I remember this about 10 years ago when he and the Church counselors started take a deeper look at things.
@TFH
“”But now, gay marriage is useful in exposing the supposedly ‘pro-marriage’ frauds for what they are.””
I support gay marriage also.For much the same reasons.I don’t support them adopting kids though!!!
When the cops are called to a house because of DV,99% of the time they arrest the man(innocent or not).With a gay couple?…….who do they arrest now?….which man?…..This will throw a wrench into the works!
Also,I want to see these idiot lesbians paying alimony and hear them complain about it…..and laugh my balls off at them!
Father’s Day was not even mentioned at mass (nor Mother’s Day before it). The only reason I knew it was “that day” was when it was mentioned in passing during the final blessing that the Knights were putting on a breakfast to honor fathers. In fact, the only reason I know these days even exist is the silly ads on the side of websites.
It’s actually a good test to see if the pastor is preaching on the gospel or following the cultural agenda (that, or if he mentions TV shows in his homily which always pisses me off since I don’t know any).
These modern holidays were created in the 1900’s, just like birthdays or the bastarding of St, Valentine’s Day & Christmas. Postmoderns reflexively need to celebrate something once they gave up their traditional religious Feasts. But whatever is created just malforms into pure commercial crap without root or meaning. And when people still properly celebrate traditional religious holidays (holy days) there simply isn’t room for the self-aggrandizing of Father’s or Mother’s Day. One can’t celebrate everything. Father’s day doesn’t even come close to making the cut.
@seriouslyserving
@Dalrock (or anyone),
How would you recommend encouraging a father who has a lot of “sand in the gears”?
I tell my husband “you’re such a great Dad” quite a lot, as well as specific ways he is a good Dad. But every time he hears fathers/men torn down in sermons, or even TV shows, his response is feeling crushed and “I need to do better”.
It feels like this message out there undoes all my effort in building him up…
Not knowing your husband, I’m going to present two possibilities of what might be going on here:
1. False humility. Or, an emulation of false humility that he’s witnessing from other men who overly exert this “I need to do better” mantra because they think it displays righteousness. It doesn’t come off sincere, however, and it essentially is a mockery of the Holy Spirit. If the man is truly in prayer seeking the Lord and how to “do better”, the work in him will be done which will generate in him a confidence in trusting in God. If a man is expressing “I need to do better” and it’s done as a show and not in sincerity, Matthew 6 explains “He has his reward.”
In this case, what should you do? Pray for him. This isn’t something that is for you to fix.
2. A genuine feeling of failure, self doubt, fear, and confusion.
Again, pray for him. Stay in your lane, you are not his counselor. Work out your own issues through prayer and express the joy you receive having done so. In either case, your husband will witness your conduct (1 Peter 3).
For you, I’m curious if the encouragement you’re giving him is from a Wife 1 perspective, Wife 2 perspective, or does your heart genuinely revere his role as head, you have full faith in him, you edify him naturally, do not internally feel judgement toward him or have longing expectations of him? Have you put full faith in obeying God by surrendering your opinion (and expectations) of your husband and accepting God’s opinion and declaration of him and who he is to you?
Some practical advice: Turn up the sexual heat in your marriage. Demonstrate the longing you have for him. Sexual intimacy breeds sexual intimacy. This is an area you can initiate from will power and continue through sheer desire that will come from it. God gave this to you, the pleasure experienced in this one flesh bonding. We wives often overlook how important this is to our husbands and how valuable it can be to them when working out their own self doubt, fear, failures, and confusion. Even if it is something he’s not asking for: http://sarahsdaughterblog.blogspot.com/2013/10/make-sure-he-is-highly-sexed-man.html
Making sure your husband knows you long for him intimately may not resolve all of his concerns that “he needs to do better” but it certainly will go a long way for his confidence and knowing you respect him and are truly committed to being his helpmeet, in every way.
Also, though it is seen as an innocent enough question from a devoted wife, I caution you on how much you tell of your husband. Whether or not we, strangers reading it, develop an opinion of him, your motivation within your heart is my concern. Your comment indicates your own frustration that “your efforts” are being sabotaged. Again, you are not your husband’s counselor charged with fixing or psychoanalyzing his well being and spiritual development, or how he views himself as a father. Edify him to your children, edify him in front of your children. Express to him your understanding of God’s declaration that husbands are the head. Don’t entertain the movies and shows that have the theme “men are buffoons.” I’m not sure your husband needs encouragement so much as he needs to know he is honored and respected, by you and your children.
Exactly right. Modern people in general do not believe in authority; many don’t even know what it is.
“Bravely facing the applause” is the new version of moral courage: going with the flow, telling women and homosexuals what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear, and patting ourselves on the back as if that were virtuous rather than vicious.
One for JDG –
H/T – KMLA
Growing up, our priest would read the bulletin for his homily. 45 minutes top for a normal Sunday service!
2. A genuine feeling of failure, self doubt, fear, and confusion.
Heaven help any man who feels this way and who lets any hint of it show in front of his wife.
“In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.”
The from the C.S. Lewis book The Abolition of Man. Could have been The Abolition of [Men].
The only reason I knew it was “that day” was when it was mentioned in passing during the final blessing that the Knights were putting on a breakfast to honor fathers.
Very telling that it was left to the Knights, a group of men, to step up and honor their fellow men in this way. Did such an idea occur to none of the womenfolk?
Just sayin’…
Father’s Day at church, the preacher preached on how he doesn’t like most Father’s Day sermons because of the demonisation of fathers, and the contrast it is with the typical lionisation of mothers on a typical Mother’s Day sermon. (Our Mother’s Day sermon was about “bad mothers”: a visiting preacher talked about a mother who was in prison for murdering one of her kids; how she, in turn, had a bad mother too, which is why the cycle of violence continued; and ultimately about the mother in prison accepting Christ’s offer of salvation. A beautiful story.)
He spent the sermon building up his own dad (trying to avoid a bit of awkwardness, since his dad was in the audience!), and then turned it over to sharing time for any of us to share about the impact our fathers have had on our lives.
A few women spoke up. A widow, who lost her husband when her children were still young. She spoke about how difficult it was for her kids not having their dad, and how the rest of us need to count our blessings – that we have fathers at all – even if our fathers aren’t perfect.
Quite a contrast to the typical deadbeat dads sermon.
@Mark
I have some lesbian friends who are duking it out as we speak – I feel a perverse sort of schadenfreude watching it from afar, especially since I attended their “wedding”.
The main point of contention is the pets. Each of them wants one of the pets, each of them doesn’t want another one, and they’re both animal-rights wackos, and suddenly none of their friends really want to get involved. My longing and hope is that the one animal gets put down.
Boxer:
Gentlemen, Boxer has thrown down the gauntlet. He is literally offering to convert to Christianity if he witnesses those of us who claim to be Christian men actually acting like Christians in our respective churches.
(If any of y’all want to take the easy way out, you can go to your nearest conservative Mennonite church and join us, which, for the most part, are un-pozzed. But I’d personally rather see you guys stir up a revelation and throw out the heretics in your pulpits, excommunicate the heathens in your pews, and rejoin your churches to Christ’s Church.)
@ Julian, TFH
Another thing to keep in mind is that mothers tend to overestimate the SMV of their children, especially their sons. In other words, they think their sons are already attractive to a lot of girls, just as they are, so they just tell them to go out there and “be themselves” or whatever, since they just assume that’s all that their sons would need to do in order to find girlfriends.
@Wapiti
“The lead-in to the sermon was a 2-min video about fatherlessness and the impact on father-absence on children. Which I suppose wouldn’t be so bad–it is, after all, factual–if the context about how most kids come to live in a father-absent home in the first place was provided–i.e., not because Dad voluntarily bailed, but because a choice mommy either involuntarily removed him from the family home or wasn’t invited to participate in the first place (in the case of unwed childbearing).”
I think it would be interesting to see the reaction when they show that 2 min video at a Mother’s Day sermon. Why not hold the women accountable for their decisions also?
@Mark
“Also,I want to see these idiot lesbians paying alimony and hear them complain about it…..and laugh my balls off at them!”
I can guarantee it. Ex-wives don’t like to pay alimony either.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/role-reversal-wives-angry-paying-alimony/story?id=8662940
Long-time lurker, first time poster
Stop right there.
You shouldn’t become a Christian as way of hanging out with certain kinds of people socially – or, really, as nothing but a means to any end whatsoever, however good an end it might be.
You should only become a Christian if you believe Christianity is true. Fortunately it actually is true.
There would likely be a lot of men willing to convert/revert to such a movement. Look at the “promise keeper” phenomenon, or the “black men only” meetings that the Nation of Islam holds. They fill whole stadia with tens of thousands of men for these meetings. Unfortunately, those two examples are trojan horses, led by men who browbeat the audience and make them feel badly for social problems that they had nothing to do with (most of which are caused by feminists and other such losers — not working class men).
@ Zippy
“Bravely facing the applause” is the new version of moral courage: going with the flow, telling women and homosexuals what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear, and patting ourselves on the back as if that were virtuous rather than vicious.
Nailed it.
@Zippy
The Bible says that Christians will be known by their love for each other. (Not known for, say, their willingness to collectively throw all their men under the bus.)
In order for unbelievers to change to believing that Christianity is true, they need to see Christians living out a good example – actually being different from a dying, corrupt, perverse world. If we aren’t any different than the world, than how can we claim that Christianity is true?
Boxer (and many, many other men) are itching to actually see something that’s different. The majority of Christians in America right now embrace heretical, anti-Christian doctrines like feminism. And I don’t blame Boxer for a second if he says “I choose not to believe in whatever belief system it is that leads people to live like that.”
The one thing I like about the Orthodox church I attend is that the topic of the day is set by the liturgical calendar. So, while the priest made mention in passing of it being Father’s day with a proforma honoring of fathers, the sermon was over Matthew 6:22-33 with no attempts to link the text to men or fathers.
@Retrenched
We (Anabaptists) bravely faced resistance against the evils the world has perpetrated on us: Social Security, government standards of education, the military draft, World War I, immodest fashions for women, fashions for women teaching them to dress like men, and so on.
Surprisingly, the world and government eventually backed off and accommodated these things. The Lord takes care of his people.
Conversely, mainstream “Christianity” fully embraced the welfare state & social security, fully embraced government schools (the homeschooling movement is an interesting aberration to this), and has 100% hook line and sinker adopted worldly fashions. Not to mention being really, really interested in fighting the government’s wars.
Where are those who will say “no”, even at personal cost to themselves? (And we need those who will say “no” to more than baking a cake for a homosexual wedding. We need those who will say “no” to a remarriage of a frivolously divorced woman, and call her to repent and turn from her sins.)
@anonymous_ng
One of the negative aspects of the Protestant Reformation was the introduction of the sermon, where one apex-alpha male gets up and exposits the wisdom of his own mind for 45 minutes.
The Hutterites got this one right, too. They have a collection of 400 year old sermons. Since they were good enough for back then, they’re good enough for today, too. There’s no point in anybody chasing the “best teaching” and “a really dynamic pastor”.
Re: the Catholic vs Protestant debate
The argument has a flawed premise: it assumes one side or the other has it right. I’ve come to the conclusion that today’s Protestants no more have it “right” than today’s Catholics (I am not Catholic, btw, I am a Protestant).
If I may suggest a few resources:
“Church of Tares” – a documentary on the seeker-sensitive/purpose-driven church movement.
“The Real Roots of the Emergent Church” – a documentary on the emergent church movement
“Strange Fire” – John MacArthur’s critique of the Charismatic church movement
Book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Fire-Offending-Counterfeit-Worship/dp/1400205174/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1435849140&sr=1-1&keywords=strange+fire
Conference video: http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-series/325/strange-fire-conference
The two sessions by Joel Peters (which focus on the Word of Faith theology) were the best. If you don’t want to read the book, or watch the entire 20+ hours of conference video, those two would be your best option.
Seeker-driven, purpose-driven, emergent, and charismatic. I’d wager that the vast majority of Protestants are attending a church that falls into one of those categories (ALL mega-churches fall into one or more of these categories). Of course, emergent and charismatic theology has also made significant inroads into Catholic churches also, so this is not just a Protestant problem.
A couple of things are obvious about the 4 church types: (1) they have a low regard for scripture, and (2) they don’t teach the gospel. Oh, they may teach a watered down, feel-good gospel, but sin, repentance, and Christ crucified…no, they don’t teach that. Which leads me to a painful conclusion:
The majority of “Christians” are not saved; they are not regenerated; they are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
I know that is a harsh statement, but you can’t seriously look at the theology, proof-texting, scripture-twisting, and shenanigans in today’s churches and believe the Holy Spirit would sit silently by while an indwelt Christian participates in them. No, the Holy Spirit would be screaming at them “GET OUT.” Therein lies the problem in debating scripture with modern Christians. You can’t debate scripture with an unsaved person, because to them it is foolishness.
Most would agree that the traditional, mainstream Protestant denominations died spiritually a while ago. God has removed their lamp-stand. But, the truth is most evangelical churches are just as dead. Their lamp-stand is also long gone. This is why Catholic vs Protestant arguments are senseless. Arguing about which lamp-stand-less church is better is like arguing which room in Hell is better.
Seriously Serving… from what you’ve said at lgrobbins site about not feeling like he’s alpha enough, like you feel like you’ve made the wrong choice in husband because he only has alpha moments… how you are “against” seducing him (and my seduction post for wives to desire their husbands)… that might be the problem.
“Some practical advice: Turn up the sexual heat in your marriage. Demonstrate the longing you have for him. Sexual intimacy breeds sexual intimacy. This is an area you can initiate from will power and continue through sheer desire that will come from it.”
Take Sarah’s Daughter’s advice….
*oops you said you feel like he’s “not” alpha enough.
DeNihilist says:
July 2, 2015 at 8:53 am
One for JDG –
Thank you sir, thank you very much.
@Looking Glass…kudos to your mother! Excellent to hear.
The one thing I like about the Orthodox church I attend is that the topic of the day is set by the liturgical calendar
Yeah, b/c we never read that Jesus used the things around him to aid in his teaching *eyes roll*
@Dalrock (or anyone),
How would you recommend encouraging a father who has a lot of “sand in the gears”?
I tell my husband “you’re such a great Dad” quite a lot, as well as specific ways he is a good Dad. But every time he hears fathers/men torn down in sermons, or even TV shows, his response is feeling crushed and “I need to do better”.
It feels like this message out there undoes all my effort in building him up…
seriouslyserving: I think it is important for your husband to understand that he is actually devaluing your support by allowing himself to dwell in a culture of despair (and teaching you to stop complimenting him rather than continue). You are doing what you need to do. He must do his part too. That might be finding alternative media to enjoy where that message that he isn’t good enough doesn’t exist. It is important for you to keep up your good work but not to feel like it is your responsibility to compensate for the entire world. You may need to convey to him that you feel he is placing too much weight on influences outside your relationship. I’m sure your husband loves you very much and would be willing to change if he understood how much his inability to take your compliments bothers you. Environment is a huge influence on our moods and attitudes. Ask him to consider how his is affecting both him and your relationship and what the two of you can do to change that.
For the record, I think this is the comment made by seriouslyserving that dragonfly is extrapolating from.
https://unmaskingfeminism.wordpress.com/2015/05/16/the-biblical-hoochie-mama-submissive-wife/comment-page-1/#comment-13855
Specifically, seriously says:
“Yes, I have noticed this too. And as the wife of a non-alpha man (well, he has alpha moments), it bothers me. Because it seems to imply that women like me are doing it wrong, or at least, that we chose wrong.”
I read this as her saying she herself does not feel like she chose wrong, but rather that she is made to feel like she chose wrong by all the women who have the super-alphas studs that they can’t stop talking about. If your man isn’t a super alpha 24/7 then the women who don’t have that feel an implication that they are doing it wrong or did not make the best choice. If you aren’t following the RPW script to a tee or if your man doesn’t like lingerie or other seductive tactics, then you are the odd girl out. Its much like the pressure moms put on other moms with their kids. The implications that so and so isn’t in the right school, or has the right clothes or toys.
I once wondered why so many societies had to periodically designate some women as ‘witches’ and exile them from society (or worse). The reason for this is now apparent…
Feminists are witches, actually, according to the Holy Book, for it is clear feminism is nothing but rebellion against God and His rules; against nature and its rules; and against society and its rules. You could easily and safely substitute “rebellion” for “feminism”, and you’d still convey exactly the same thoughts. And, remember that the original sin committed by Lucifer was rebellion against God’s authority.
For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee….
1 Samuel 15:23
I think men should look elsewhere when it comes to picking their wives. Most American women are eternally and irreversibly contaminated. Even the good ones will have a hard time respecting men and treating them with honor. This is not unsurprising because they grew up in a culture that tells them at every turn that men are dishonorable and stupid.
No, I am not saying there are not good ones among them. Personally, I believe there are still many American women who, though influenced by Western culture, have not imbibed it, and are far more open to making corrective changes than most. But their proportion is dwindling everyday.
Men should look to other countries. Asia, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Guatemala and even some parts of Africa still have stunningly attractive and truly traditional women who will love and respect their men who provide for them. American women, by and large, with some exceptions as stated earlier, are utterly useless.
J_N:
Certainly.
Then they need to be extra careful that if and when they profess Christianity they are doing so because they actually believe it to be true, not just because it is “something that’s different”.
Modern family relations seem complex, but are understandable in analogous terms.
Image Chris and Pat contemplating a business partnership. However, according to the law, if the relationship fails, Chris would keep a majority of the assets and Pat a majority of the liabilities. Further, Pat would be obligated under threat of jail to keep supporting Chris regardless of the other partnerships Chris entered into and regardless of Chris’s post partnership duties, which are not enforced.
It is very easy to understand why Pat would be reluctant, and why Chris would go all out, even for years, in convincing Pat that Chris would be a fantastic business partner. If Chris would succeed, it would be very easy to see why Chris would no longer be as motivated to keep up the partnership, especially if a new and more attractive, albeit less reliable, opportunity arose. It would also be understandable why Pat would go all out in keeping the partnership together, and why Pat would be more willing than Chris to put up with feedback on how to be a better partner. And why Chris would have little tolerance for any criticism of their handling of the partnership.
As you may have guessed, Chris is the prospective wife/mother, and Pat is he prospective husband/father.
Happy Father’s Day Pat, and man up you loser. *sarcasm off*.
lg – ” but rather that she is made to feel like she chose wrong by all the women who have the super-alphas studs that they can’t stop talking about.”
let me finish this for you,
or all the beta men who are continuously derided in the manosphere for being whom they are, made to feel that there is something broken in them because they are not out trying to bang every skirt they see.
seriouslyserving says:
July 1, 2015 at 10:38 pm
@Dalrock (or anyone),
How would you recommend encouraging a father who has a lot of “sand in the gears”?
I tell my husband “you’re such a great Dad” quite a lot, as well as specific ways he is a good Dad. But every time he hears fathers/men torn down in sermons, or even TV shows, his response is feeling crushed and “I need to do better”.
It feels like this message out there undoes all my effort in building him up…
Since you said “anyone,” I’ll give it a shot.
Your husband is trapped in a “works” mindset. What can I do better? How can I please God? What do I need to do to show God I am worthy of Him?
No wonder he gets depressed feels he needs do better. No man can live up to God’s standards, and every time tries he is going to fail.
Your husband is in a similar position as Martin Luther’s friend Philipp Melanchthon. Melanchthon was concerned about constantly falling short of God’s standards; of sinning, despite the fact that he tried not to sin. Luther’s response:
If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.
This is where Luther “sin boldly” quote comes from, but the lesson isn’t that we should sin boldly. It’s that we should accept that we are sinners; accept that we are still in the flesh, and that we will continue to sin–even after we are saved. The solution isn’t to beat ourselves up about our sin. It’s to repent and accept God’s forgiveness. Realizing that God’s love for us isn’t diminished on iota because we are sinners. Your husband doesn’t need to keep proving himself worthy to God, because he never was worthy in the first place.
If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:10
1 John was written to a group of first century BELIEVERS–believers under the tutelage of the Apostle John. If they can’t walk through life without sinning; if they can’t be perfect in all their ways, how can your husband? Why is your husband holding himself to a higher standard than the Apostle John held his converts to?
Tell your husband to accept the fact that he is a sinner,and will continue to be one until he exits the flesh and is raised again with a new body. Our soul has been regenerated, but our flesh is still the same sinful flesh as it was before we were saved, and the flesh still exerts an influence on us–even after we are saved. God knows this, and has made provision for it. Christ covers all our sins–all of them–the ones we commit before we are saved, and the ones we commit afterwards.
@Dave
“Men should look to other countries. Asia, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Guatemala and even some parts of Africa still have stunningly attractive and truly traditional women who will love and respect their men who provide for them. American women, by and large, with some exceptions as stated earlier, are utterly useless.”
Ukraine and Russia get my vote on where to look for wives, but beware of the party girls. They make American women look like prudes. Also, be mindful that your foreign bride doesn’t become too indoctrinated by all the feminist nonsense.
Also, be mindful that your foreign bride doesn’t become too indoctrinated by all the feminist nonsense.
A truly traditional woman from anywhere in the world will be thoroughly disgusted by American women’s feminist nonsense, and will never accept it as normal. The reason is that their “primary socialization” is already completed, and they have already established their norms. Thus, they will see the American woman as being abnormal, and will constantly tell their kids not to emulate them.
Has anyone seen this? A woman felt she was being made into a victim by the military’s policies regarding “sexual harassment”, and she’d had enough:
Her letter here.
JN,
They don’t (AFAIK) believe the whole Bible, including the Baptism of the Holy Spirit being real, the Gifts of the Spirit being something that continues to operate as needed, etc.
I stick with what is written and remain firm to that. I have found many “Bible” churches and others that claim a fundamental commitment do not for some odd reason.
This just goes to show that humans will still mess anything up and it is the reason we will not have perfection on the earth until we are all changed completely into His image. We can and should do what we can on this earth, but we can never perfect God’s righteousness in a human vessel.
That is why tilting against windmills is so stupid. Things like the Purpose Driven Church have great merit. They can be misused, but please show me what cannot. I don’t and am unlikely to follow that stream much, but I have read both versions of the book and find they had merit.
It is like rejecting sound diet advice because some people take it to the extreme. Or even better, because they spend the first chapter of a book on it going on about the mythical “evolutionary past” that laid the groundwork for what they claim. (Look at the Paleo diet and Bulletproof Diet for that, among others.)
Truth is truth, wherever it is found. Go back to what is written and hold that up. We won’t convince all, but that is not our job. Our job is to present the truth, in words and deeds.
====
I noted before that I believe Boxer is not far from true salvation. I will let God work it out, but his statement indicates to me he just wants a demonstration of the reality of what we preach.
====
It sounds like srslysrvng (or however it is spelled) is more lamenting the fact she didn’t marry an alpha. Stop worrying about that and be the best wife you can be. Most men are not alphas and certainly not the top of the heap ones.
I can’t figure out what I am. I have traits of alpha, delta, gamma and sigma. That would make me a gamma per some, but that doesn’t fit in my mind. The key thing is that I will do my best to pursue what is right, taking care of my wife along the way but not following her.
Srsly likely just needs to quite worrying about it all and just be a helpmeet. Her husband may or may not flow the right way, but SD is right that it is not her job to make everything right.
The theological schizophrenia we’re seeing with Father’s Day is the product of the unspoken belief that husbands are ultimately responsible for their families and yet ultimately not in charge. It’s what I call “backseat-driven” marriage; the backseat passenger ultimately gets to “decide” where the vehicle goes, even though the driver is actually doing the driving, but if anything goes wrong as a result of that decision, the driver is held responsible in a court of law, not the passenger.
This presents a huge problem, however. How can you tell fathers and husbands to “man up” and take responsibility for their families while avoiding the fact that they’re not really in charge? Imagine Eisenhower ordering Patton to drive the Germans out of France, when he’s also not allowed to give orders to the Third Army, without that fact being brought up at some point once Patton goes out to fulfill his duties. The analogy reminds me of George C. Scott’s line from the film Patton “If you won’t let me kill the enemy, why did you pick me to command?”
It’s why the “man up” discussion has to be constantly reframed to prevent this realization from ever taking place (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain). It’s why the message to fathers is all over the place; if it remains in one spot, the charade is up. Thus, the father needs to “man up,” but before he gets around to assuming the authority he “doesn’t have” in order to “man up,” the argument gets reframed so that “manning up” isn’t about making decisions for himself about what to do, but always – always – carrying out the orders of someone else. Additionally, if the discussion remained in one place for too long, fathers mighty get a little uppidy and have the nerve to challenge the Sacred Truth that what’s going wrong in society is their fault, only their fault, and will always be only their fault.
This is why you will never, ever, ever hear them talk about how fathers or husbands have the wisdom or discernment to make the decisions; someone has to tell them what to do.
It really comes down to the old quip, “Hey, who’s in charge here?”
@Zippy
I deduce someone’s beliefs by how they act.
If someone claims to be a Christian, yet has no fruits of the spirit, and instead has all manner of sin in their life, I don’t think they believe that Christ actually died to save their sins.
If someone says they believe in Christ, and they have found victory over sin and have turned away from the world’s wicked ways, then I will believe that they, too, believe in Jesus.
Sola fidelis has been stretched in the modern day to absurd proportions. Christianity has been boiled down to nothing other than mouthing the sinner’s prayer, and then claiming “I believe in Jesus” – whatever that means. And most of them, that belief means absolutely nothing.
Boxer says:
Related to this, all women have the innate drive to shit test all men, even sons. (By shit test I mean the wide array of behaviors intended to deconstruct men, not just the quick verbal jabbings.) When women give their sons the original shit test they are providing a service to other women by causing the beta sons to flag themselves as such.
Has anyone seen this? A woman felt she was being made into a victim by the military’s policies regarding “sexual harassment”, and she’d had enough:
There is some truth in what she says about being made into a victim (made to look like a victim would be more accurate), but she is still a feminist. She is a feminist on the right who thinks the gap between men and women CAN BE lessened. She is WRONG.
Men and women are not, and can never be (in this world), the same. That gap will always remain. It will always be an irritant to every woman who wants to occupy men’s spaces. IMO she is not an Airman, she can’t be. She is yet another woman occupying some man’s rightful place.
The fix doesn’t end with treating men like rational human beings, although that would be a good start. The fix doesn’t end with implementing policies based on an understanding that not everything is a man’s fault. Neither is it completed when they remember that women are also capable of deviant behavior. Any fix needs to include the radical notion that women are not men with breasts, and ARE NOT as capable as men in MANY arenas. When this truth is remembered (along with the others) then we might be on our way to something manageable.
Fat chance on that happening though. There is a greater chance that T will return to tell us how she is now picking up her husbands dirty socks and throwing them in the hamper for him than for our decadent society to make the reforms mentioned above.
@seriouslyserving
I tell my husband “you’re such a great Dad” quite a lot, as well as specific ways he is a good Dad. But every time he hears fathers/men torn down in sermons, or even TV shows, his response is feeling crushed and “I need to do better”.
It feels like this message out there undoes all my effort in building him up…
Maybe he actually needs to do better? Has he found a specific area that he wants to improve? Could it be that he is a good enough father by your standards but not by his own?
@seriouslyserving
My advice would be to ask him not to put down your husband.
@Elusive Wapiti
Now that’s a decent list. I looked up the guy who wrote the first list and he seems to be into “counseling.” Ostensibly the list was for his son. If that’s the case, he needn’t have left a list. His wife will leave the kid hen-pecked enough that all of this stuff will be instinctive.
SarahsDaughter,
Very incisive comment, as usual. 🙂
I certainly need to pray for him (and in general) more regularly – thank you for this encouragement.
My gratitude and respect expressed to him are certainly genuine. He is a very good father and husband, and I try to let him know this a lot. I worry though that it comes across as “stilted” because I’m not the type of person to express a lot of emotion typically, and so I end up over-thinking my wording before I speak.
More sex? That will be a fun homework assignment 😉
My intention in asking the question here was simply to gain an insight into how it makes men (who are good fathers and husbands) feel when they are constantly exposed to this message that they are not good enough. I just thought perhaps Dalrock and some of the other guys might be able to give some guidance to a wife wanting to support her husband who is in this position.
I know it isn’t my role to psychoanalyse or fix him, but I do feel that having a better understanding of where he’s at will make me a better helper to him.
Dragonfly,
As lgrobins has already pointed out – you completely (purposefully?) misunderstood my comments there. My husband is not a typical “alpha” dude, but rest assured, there is plenty of attraction and desire in our marriage. And I am very pleased that he chose me as his wife. There is no other man I’d rather be with.
And I don’t recall reading your post on seduction. Just the one that lgrobins wrote, which I did comment on.
I was saying there that I think seduction has an element of “fakeness” to it. That is stems from wanting to create the appearance of desire, rather than allowing yourself to be vulnerable with your husband.
If you have any actual criticisms of me, I would gladly hear them, but please don’t go around changing my words to make me look bad.
Kate Minter,
I’m not sure it’s my place to tell him what media he should be consuming or not. But I do try to remind him of my view of him and God’s view of him when he makes these comments.
New anon,
Thank you for your comment! That is very helpful.
Michelle,
I certainly acknowledge that my husband is not perfect, but my concern is that in expressing “I need to do better” (or similar comments), he’s not expressing actual conviction of the Holy Spirit, but a general sense of negativity. Sometimes he does express specific areas he would like to improve and asks me to pray.
Dalrock,
It’s funny you should say that, because when he gets down on himself, I often say, “Don’t talk about my husband like that!”
It does seem to lift his spirits. 🙂
@seriouslyserving
Both Sarah’s Daughter and Dalrock have given you good advice.
The most important thing to remember is that he is fine the way he is. Your only focus should be on yourself, your own moral improvement. While in times of great crisis you may need to build him up, in more normal circumstances this can be subtly emasculating if he senses that you are constantly being his cheerleader because you think he needs you to cheer.
So, when he insults his own performance as a father and husband, use some discernment. If it is a deeply held belief, indicative of great struggle and anguish, then, sure, go ahead and have a deep conversation with him in which you try to build him up. Hopefully you don’t have to do this too much, however. Too much of this and you become his mother. If it is a recurring problem, suggest he seek advice from his own father or some other older man you both trust.
If his comments are an indication of his true Christian humility, then just tell him how much you admire his humility and his constant struggle to improve. Then change the subject (or, alternately, point out some ways that you too would like to improve as a mother, although try to do it in a way that does not just invite him to reassure you!).
But if his comments are just passing negative thoughts, more emotional than rational, then don’t give them much response. If you take the comments too seriously, then you risk suggesting to him that you too believe he is not measuring up. You might even use a gentle version of some of the humorous techniques men employ on their wives, but only if you can pull it off with obvious affection rather than ridicule. For example:
Him: I’m just not doing enough as a father.
You: I know. You work all day to support us, come home and spend the whole evening with your children, and then you have the nerve to go to bed once they are asleep! What a slacker!
Not all men would appreciate this kind of response, but some do (mine does), so do a trial run and if it is a disaster then drop it. But men have moods too, especially young men who have a lot of stress from supporting a family, and the manosphere wisdom that it does not always pay to give passing moods much attention can sometimes work on men too.
Pingback: “Modern Christian culture’s deep antipathy for fathers?” | See, there's this thing called biology...
Our latest move after leaving the Army took us back home to the great Pacific Northwest. We’re very blessed to be near family for the first time in many years, and we’re very blessed to have found an excellent church. Not perfect, of course, but excellent.
First, I’ve learned something new that I didn’t know about the scriptures every time I’ve attended, which I haven’t been able to say in decades.
Second, both Mothers’ Day and Fathers’ Day cemented my belief that choosing this church was a good decision. In both cases, there was a short word honoring mothers (on Mothers’ Day) and fathers (on Fathers’ Day), then the pastor went right back to his verse-by-verse series on the Book of Exodus. Not even a hint of father bashing.
Third, the one time that headship came up in a sermon, the pastor taught Biblical headship with zero equivocation, dilution or apologies.
Finally, this last Sunday the pastor spoke a short word about the Supreme Court’s decision on gay marriage. I’m paraphrasing, but essentially he said, “mark my words, they’re going to come after the churches. They’re going to try and force us to stop preaching that homosexuality is a sin, and they’re going to try and force us to conduct gay wedding ceremonies. They can stuff it.” That last part was a direct quote.
Like I said, we’re very blessed.
Not trying to twist your words at all… “And as the wife of a non-alpha man (well, he has alpha moments), it bothers me. Because it seems to imply that women like me are doing it wrong, or at least, that we chose wrong.” You said it bothers you to see other women with alpha (more alpha?) husbands in the manosphere talking about their lives… it would not bother you if you were ok with your own husband and secure with who he is. If you were confident in who you both are as a couple, why would anyone else’s relationship bother you? That is something I picked up on in your comments… it also was very condescending to imply that women who want to seduce their husbands (or even that like to wear makeup) are somehow less vulnerable and achieve less intimacy than women who don’t enjoy seducing their husbands and who wear little to no makeup at all. Very strange theology or ideology of what makes a good marriage in my opinion. These are all opinions I saw of yours on her page. Again, comparing yourself to others who aren’t like you to see if they’re more or less intimate or vulnerable with their husbands? I’m not sure.
Maybe it’s just the whole comparing ourselves to others thing, but it doesn’t usually bring anything good from it. You end up feeling bad if you compare up, and you arrogant if you compare down to another. Like it said, it bothered you to compare yourself to other women and their husbands… so why compare?
lgrobbins was extremely against my whole seduction post, even writing a post somewhat about it.
Not trying to make you look bad
but honestly, that comment (to me) does look not good if you know what I mean… think of it from your husband’s perspective if he saw your comments about him, would it build him up or make him feel worse? If you are constantly in your mind comparing him to other men (especially men who may be more “alpha”), and he’s (in anyway at all) coming up short, or you’re saying that seeing these other people in the manosphere makes you feel like you chose wrong or like you are supposed to think you chose wrong, don’t you think that would critically injure his self-esteem or make him feel like a failure to you? I remember one of the MAIN things my mom taught me about men is that YOU NEVER compare them to another man even your own father, or it makes them feel less than the best man for you (and turns them off from you).
Its just not good to constantly compare to others… other people may have different gifts, talents, or abilities. I’m sure your husband has his own unique alphaness (for lack of a better word) and it’s important to build him up even in your own mind.
Has the video of Thiry’s pastor been edited? She said to start watching at the 26:00 mark, and I didn’t find the quoted section there. I also skipped around to several other places and couldn’t find the quoted segment in the video.
Dragonfly,
I know it might be hard for you to comprehend, but here it is:
I don’t want my husband to be more “alpha”. That was my point. When I say he’s not a typical alpha, I don’t say that as an insult or to point out his “falling short”, because I don’t see it as falling short.
Anyway, I’m not sure this is the place to have this discussion. If you had a problem with my comments on lgrobins’ blog, why didn’t you reply to them there?
@Dave,
I joined my church because God told me to do so. As crazy as that sounds. And it is crazy. And I’ve done nothing but fight with them since I joined. They want me as a leader. They gave me a calling and then asked me to resign because I was teaching the young men the truth. I told them the truth about the feminist rebellion and that state marriage is a lie.
All I can do is keep speaking the truth. And hope and pray for my truly Christian brothers and sisters to listen. And to see that we are not alone.
This may sound stupid to the incels here. Waiting for their wife. Waiting for God to provide. I haven’t felt a woman’s touch in 6 months. The longest for me ever. Since I turned into an “adult”.
And there are dumb slut women all around me I could plate… There are plates everywhere…. I work with them…
I am doing what I can to hold on to my baptismal covenants. But what can I do? Marriage is dead. Christianity is dead. I don’t know what to do anymore.
Church is awful. They all just want me to man up and marry some slut single mother. The women they try to tie me into are gag worthy. I can get such better women just myself… Better women ask me out! They ask me!!!
These women aren’t Christians. And now I am. But what am I to do?
A sister in my church, who has participated in “my” rebellion, told me to find a wife outside of America. She warned me about American women. She told me to find a foreign wife. Straight up.
I guess it’s a chance.
But why shouldn’t I spin plates again? I’m so much better then the women around me and they’ve all turned feral. With support and encouragement from the church that God told me to join.
Keep fighting I guess. What else can I do? I don’t want to break my covenants. They aren’t between me and you. They are between me and God himself. How can I break them?
I’m so confused.
On the topic of women in the manosphere: a lot of us are here because this is the only place that “gets it” about men and women and attraction. We married more dominant, masculine men on purpose. It’s not like we just lucked into our lives and then stumbled upon the idea the idea that this is what would make us the happiest. These stories are so common because it’s very much a shared experience. It’s unfortunate if it makes others uncomfortable, but I don’t think it’s meant to be smug or malicious.
@Dragonfly,
Thank you for wishing me a happy father’s day. You did and someone else on your blog. Other then that? My dad sent me a text in reply to what I sent him. That’s it.
At church the sermon was good though. My Bishop had several talks about how necessary fathers are. Along with a huge chunk about what we need to do for women.
Cause yeah. That’s what I need to do. More for women. As if I haven’t given enough. When do women give back to me? When do they play the clown? When are women going to start picking me up?
I feel blessed. I’m way up I feel blessed. I’m way up. I feel blessed. I mean whatever it’s worth.
That’s lessons and lessons and lessons.
@StringsofCoins:
Be Strong and Do the Work. The Lord’s with you, when he calls you, even if it seems hopeless. You never know what will walk in the door tomorrow.
Noah is always a good reference here. God told him to build an ark (and cue Bill Cosby, “right, what’s an ark?”) and it took a very long time. Noah also really didn’t know what came next. God knows what’s going on, He is in control and it’s really only upon us to do what he asks us to do. We really don’t know who will walk into our lives tomorrow, but we need to be ready to do what we’ve been called to do. That’s also why Prayer is so useful.
I’m so much better then the women around me and they’ve all turned feral.
Pride comes before a fall, and what ever is good about you (or any of us) is by the grace of God. To me it sounds like you acted out of obedience, and God is molding you and testing you. Please stay strong friend, but never forget that it is God who gives you grace, and God who gives you strength. Apart from Him we can do no good thing.
They all just want me to man up and marry some slut single mother.
A 1000 times no. Only if God Himself made it undeniably clear that this was His will would I recommend such a mission.
A sister in my church, who has participated in “my” rebellion, told me to find a wife outside of America. She warned me about American women.
She is correct. 97% of Americans have sex before they are married. For women this alone would have ruined most marriage prospects in pre-feminist America, and for good reason. Women with multiple partners are a higher risk for divorce and bring other problems to a relationship as well.
She told me to find a foreign wife. Straight up.
If you must marry, then I too recommend you consider a foreign bride, only vet her very prayerfully and carefully first.
Find a foreign woman to marry.
The beginnings of my conversation with a woman from my ward.
If you’re going to marry even women say to marry a non American woman.
Find a foreign woman to marry.
The beginnings of my conversation with a woman from my ward.
If you’re going to marry even women say to marry a non American woman. We’ve destroyed our own women. What a joke.
@SS – Ok, I’m glad it doesn’t bother you then.
@Jane Dough “On the topic of women in the manosphere: a lot of us are here because this is the only place that “gets it” about men and women and attraction. We married more dominant, masculine men on purpose. It’s not like we just lucked into our lives and then stumbled upon the idea the idea that this is what would make us the happiest. These stories are so common because it’s very much a shared experience. It’s unfortunate if it makes others uncomfortable, but I don’t think it’s meant to be smug or malicious.”
Yea… the only way I found the manosphere was when a MALE manospherian started linking to my articles I was writing because he thought they fit right in with the overall theme.
He added me into his blogroll of manosphere blogs.
I was already an anti-feminist wife, I married at 20 to an older more mature man… and I already have kids and am not yet 30. This is manosphere cliche, but reality for me.
My grandma died so now I’m the man of the house.
I’m the man of the house.
I don’t even know that man means.
The truth keeps women traumatized.
I feel blessed
@seriouslyserving
I worry though that it comes across as “stilted” because I’m not the type of person to express a lot of emotion typically, and so I end up over-thinking my wording before I speak.
I used to worry about this too. Afraid that what I’d say would sound weird or corny. I learned that it was always received appreciatively by my husband. – Side note; this is yet another interesting thing I learned about men in general. They don’t often say things they don’t mean. So they presume that we also don’t say things we don’t mean. This works well when we are expressing gratitude and respect (no matter how cheesy we think it sounds). However, it really hit me hard when I realized that when I’d succumb to being irrational and flippant, saying cruel things out of anger that in a calmer state of mind I would never have said, what he heard was the temperament it would have taken for him to say those things. For him to “go off” like that, he’d have to literally hate me.
My intention in asking the question here was simply to gain an insight into how it makes men (who are good fathers and husbands) feel when they are constantly exposed to this message that they are not good enough.
We’re very sarcastic in our home, using the humor that Mulier mentioned above. When we hear a pastor or other type of relationship/motivational speaker start in on berating husbands we tend to laugh together and have an “agree and amplify” kind of conversation of the absurdity of it all. I’ll say something like, “My goodness, how do you even tie your shoes in the morning without me?” (which has added humor to it since, for a time, I did have to tie his shoes due to a back injury). When we get a whiff that a movie or television show we’re watching is going down the “men are buffoons” path, we do the same, actually we start making predictions because it really has become so predictable.
As for how my husband feels about it, he knows it’s a tool used by the enemy to attempt to break down the family. It’s been a very long time since I’ve seen him concerned about what someone else thinks of him or how he fathers his children, though I do remember him anguishing over whether he’s doing it all right (is there a father who doesn’t?). Our oldest child will be leaving this nest in less than a month, it’s been a great opportunity to reflect on how, even when we didn’t have a clue what we were doing, God’s been good – He’s answered our prayers – that no matter where we’ve messed up, He’d help keep our children on the right track.
Believe it or not, and maybe it’s having read Hillaire Beloc now, I think it all goes back to the Reformation. The Reformation in the end is where relativism snuck into Christian theology isn’t it?
The East/ West Schism (from the little I’ve read on the history of Constantinople) certainly led both halfs of the argument to chose to be on the wrong side at times just to be on the other side often enough. The Reformation was a multiple schisms all competing with each other, all trying to be more sympathetic to the peasant than the other, and voila, isn’t relativism inevitable when you have a bunch of people competing for one target audience?
Don’t get me wrong, the current Pope is a symptom of just how off-course the Catholic Church’s leadership is. But in the late medieval period, the faith survived even when everyone knew that bishops and friars were still only flesh and blood fallible human beings. The Reformation didn’t make Catholic leadership suddenly gets it’s act together, nor did the new churches among them spawn a leadership uniquely less fallible than that of the Catholic Church it replaced. It only created more room for making excuses, more opportunities to pick the wrong side just to be on the other side, and more room for confusing the fallibility of churches with the fallibility of the faith.
Are you hell-bent on a temple marriage? There are lots of foreign women who would probably make a pretty good wife to you, and would likely eventually convert too.
I would never marry a homegrown Mormon woman in a million years. Too many horror stories to count, and they’re all entitled bitches who studied advanced ball busting in MIA Maids. Good luck to you bro.
Boxer
Dear Zippy:
You’re talking about me, supposedly; but I never said I was seeking out novelty. I said I’d pledge allegiance to a group of honorable men, and I would. There’s a long tradition of hardcore Christian brothers who were skeptical, agnostic types. Here’s but one example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duns_Scotus
The concept in Christianity is not “belief” but “faith”. Faith is, as I understand it, something like “I don’t know if this is true, but I’m going to hold to it anyway, because I promised I would…” then sticking with the idea despite the hardships. That’s a very manly concept, and I dig it.
Best,
Boxer
My good friend is dating a loser – need some advice.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=967877
Are we doing enough to promote true marriage?
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=967866
The concept in Christianity is not “belief” but “faith”. Faith is, as I understand it, something like “I don’t know if this is true, but I’m going to hold to it anyway, because I promised I would…” then sticking with the idea despite the hardships. That’s a very manly concept, and I dig it.
God used to require more from humans, but we messed it all up, and never really satisfied His demands. So, He concluded that He would make it easier on the human race: Just believe and be saved! No more, no less.
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.… Galatians 3:21-23
Are you hell-bent on a temple marriage? There are lots of foreign women who would probably make a pretty good wife to you, and would likely eventually convert too.
My advice to all the single guys out there: give up on American women! because they are not worth the hassle. Most can’t cook and aren’t willing to learn. They generally don’t know how to value and respect men. They are often manly in their approaches to relationships. They tend to drain you emotionally, rather than refresh you. For the most part American women are almost all damaged goods.
I recently went out with a foreign woman during my recent trip. The difference between her attitudes and those of American women I dated before was like night and day. She was a woman in every sense of the term. Feminine, beautiful, graceful, open, respectful and responsive to my male approaches. I had to dial down my game because she did not need any significant amount of game. I instantly lost appetite for American women forever. Men who have never dated foreign women probably don’t know how women are supposed to be.
No, I am not too naïve to think that foreign women are angels. But what is clear is that these are real women, not the hermaphrodites that we have in America.
@They Call Me Tom,
You should read accounts of the pre-Reformation church by someone like Rodney Stark. The Catholic Church was extremely sick. Many priests were flat out drunks who couldn’t speak Latin, didn’t know the Mass to preside over it, etc. There was an enormous cleanup of the Catholic Church that came out of the Reformation. Also, the early reformers had no intention of starting their own breakaway church. I’d agree that the Reformation has had many many negative consequences, but the Western church was in dire need of reform.
My apologies. The quote can be found at the 06:00 minute mark, not the 26:00 minute mark.
Dave says:
July 3, 2015 at 8:38 am
Cosigned, and plus 1000. I can tell you from direct personal experience that everything you say here is 100 percent true. The hardest part, for men who have experienced nothing but the hell of relationships with Norteamerikanas, is letting go of the cynicism and mistrust that were the inevitable poisonous fruits of your past relationships. That’s not to say that you should throw caution and common sense to the wind, but, as you so correctly stated, there’s no need for battle armor either; this field is completely different.
The modern American woman’s sexual strategy in action. They are very transparent about it, if you are just looking: http://time.com/3940782/parenting-wanting-kids/
@Dave says:
July 3, 2015 at 8:25 am
“God used to require more from humans, but we messed it all up, and never really satisfied His demands. So, He concluded that He would make it easier on the human race: Just believe and be saved!”
Uh…. no. Justification by faith has been God’s way since the Fall.
Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Galatians 3:6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[a] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
Boxer @ 1:16 am:
“The concept in Christianity is not “belief” but “faith”. Faith is, as I understand it, something like “I don’t know if this is true, but I’m going to hold to it anyway, because I promised I would…” then sticking with the idea despite the hardships. That’s a very manly concept, and I dig it.”
Well, mostly. Do you believe that first-century guy named Jesus was God Incarnate? You have to believe his offer of salvation is genuine in order to take advantage of it. The “I recognize I’m evil and this guy Christ has the only offer that makes sense” belief can be sufficient but at some point, you need to confess Christ as God. (This is the point of baptism.)
Faith maintains that initial belief. It cannot create it. That’s what Zippy is talking about.
…
Mr. Roach, JN and They Call Me Tom:
Sheesh, what’s with the Protestant-bashing? Are Prots the only group of Christians capable of error? If it’s escaped your notice, feminism and related problems are busting the kneecaps of us all.
No woman “deserves” an attractive alpha male, just as no man deserves a “hot” woman. What you deserve is based on how attractive you are, in a culture which has a market-based approach to relationships. Some people will be happier with that than others will be, as is the case with all markets. All of life is a market now, whether you like that or not.
Yea… the only way I found the manosphere was when a MALE manospherian started linking to my articles I was writing because he thought they fit right in with the overall theme.
Been there, done that, and I know it’s flattering Dragonfly. But you aren’t the first and won’t be the last. So take my advice and avoid getting sucked down the rabbit hole.
Best course of action is to write the stuff you desire, while taking pains to try and be more of an influence on open-hearted wives in your immediate, real life circle. The dividends take longer to pay off because the investment is greater, but it’s much more satisfying. Not only that, but it does wonders to help you be both more compassionate and more humble.
Just my .02
I’d like to cosign Zippy and Gunner Q. I don’t comment very often, and it is because by the time I get to the bottom of the thread, someone has often already said what I wanted to say.
Dave said: Just believe and be saved!
Oscar said: Uh…. no. Justification by faith has been God’s way since the Fall.
I believe Oscar is correct, and here’s why:
“18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!” – James 2:18-19
Then James goes on to write:
“20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.”
We are not saved by works, but if we are saved there will be works. At the same time, just because someone does works does not mean that those works were done through faith in Jesus Christ. He may be motivated by any number of reasons. The true believer WILL also have works, but those works will be as a result of his faith and will bear good fruit.
No woman “deserves” an attractive alpha male, just as no man deserves a “hot” woman.
Yep!
What you deserve is based on how attractive you are, in a culture which has a market-based approach to relationships.
I would say that what you usually GET (or what you can expect) is based on how attractive you are (to the opposite sex). IMO “deserve” has nothing to do with it. If we all got what we deserve all (or at least most) of us would regret it.
@MarcusD
Thanks for posting those videos.I already saw them via friends and loved them.The thing that I liked about the 2nd one.The “hot” blonde holding up the placard “There is NO rape culture in the West” I would but her a drink and chat her up…..no problem! The ‘UGH’ obese,tatted hog with ‘SLUT’ written across her chest?….”keep on walking you slab of beef”.This is the supreme irony in this scenario.If you were going to “rape” one of these two women?….which one would it be?….I know my answer!!!…L*(and we are not rapists….just doing a comparison)….. I posted before on another thread about the “Slutwalk” here in Toronto.Myself,brother and friends were witness to the “Premiere Slutwalk”.We thought that we were going to see all these “HOT” women,dressed like skanks,parading themselves around.Did we get a surprise! The only thing that we saw that day were obese,tatted vermin,such as,the one poised at the microphone.These ‘vermin’ are nothing more than attention whores…plain & simple.They are not getting ‘dates’…let alone even meeting quality men.Quality men run so away so fast they break the sound barrier…..Thanks!
@SunshineMary
I see that you have a new blog.Good for you.I notice that it does not contain the same sort of articles that you posted on your last blog? May I be so inquisitive(or dumb) as to ask you WHY? you have changed your blog?My reasoning is that I really liked your posts on your last blog…..(So did a lot of people here that comment at Dalrocks.I use to read them…never commented)….You are one of the women(Elspeth included) that I enjoy reading your posts.Just curious.I thought you had a REALLY good thing going and thought that you might turn it into a book.Just my opinion.Thanks.
@Neguy – I don’t disagree that the Catholic Church needed reform. I just don’t know if The Reformation was the correct approach (Sort of like the French Revolution, there was no doubt a justifiable cause for revolution, the revolution itself though, failed to solve more problems than it caused.) We can see where the Catholic Church is today, the leadership has clearly lost its way.
I will look into the author you suggested, because I become more and more curious about the medieval period the more and more it seems like that’s where the west is headed.
@GunnerQ – The intent is not to bash Protestants, but to question whether The Reformation led us to where society is today, not intentionally, but simply by unforeseen consequence. Perhaps it goes farther back, perhaps where we are societally is an inevitable dead end that humanity couldn’t help but visit at some point.
And fwiw, my comments about the lost leadership of the Catholic leadership are not about practicing Catholics either. The four years or so it took me to read bits and pieces at a time of The Decameron convince me very much that the failures of Church leadership are not directly reflective of the practicing members of that faith. The congregants can be wiser than the ones at the pulpit.
@All My American Friends
Have yourselves a GREAT “Independence Day Weekend”
The trouble with going hard “red pill” is that it is aking to swallowing the kool-aid or going full moron. There is only a limited amount that can be said, and it generally has been said. Now, I enjoyed SSM and Elspeth’s blogs… but they take time. Heck, it takes me 45 minutes to an hour to write what I do most days, and that is driven by the daily readings from the book of common prayer.
You cannot demand that a person remain nicely etherized for your examination. People have lives: they have children, they have to move jobs. I’m quite aware that almost all the women from Traditional Christianity still communicate via various media, and do it quietly, privately, and that works for them.
What works for women will not work for men: can we leave the women alone. Beside, to quote Elspeth, the correct answer to most questions wives have is ask your husband .
JDG, Oscar,
We are all correct, actually. God had already planned to send Jesus to die for our sins right from the time Adam and Eve sinned in Eden. Every sacrifice that was offered until His death were essentially symbolic, and looked forward to His death.
The point I tried to make in my earlier response was that God subjected man to stringent rules under the law, so that he will better appreciate the free salvation when it was eventually revealed. Man labored “under the Law” whose main function was to act as a schoolmaster to discipline, and hold man by the ears, until salvation came. Through the Law God showed the utter futility of man’s efforts to please him, so when Jesus came and showed an easier way, it was much easier to cast our faith upon Him for salvation.
Incidentally, this is the only way to get anyone to come to Christ today. He must be made to feel the full weight of God’s stringent demands, and see himself as utterly incapable of ever meeting them, so that when Christ is presented as his sin sacrifice, he will embrace Him with both hands and with his heart. Failure of preachers to do this is the primary reason a lot of people who claim to be Christians never really knew God. No one can truly accept Christ’s salvation until convicted of his sins and he sees his powerlessness in saving himself.
God knew the end from the beginning. He knew that Adam would sin even before he did.
Happy Fourth, to those who celebrate.
The Fourth stands as a reminder of those men who sought to break connections with a dysfunctional past and create a new life for themselves where they could be who they were created to be. So can the men of today do the same. The future hasn’t happened yet. It’s ours to create. But mind the lesson of what follows here:
LADY MAGDALENE
The man on the right is a man undone
He’d give you his soul
If you asked him for some
A child in his way for he needs to believe
That love is a song for each man to sing
The man on the left is a prize un-won
A candle unlit and a song unsung
Believing that love is a dreamer’s dream
The man on the left,
The me in between
The man in between waits between the two
Not hearing the lie and not seeing the true
Unknowing what is and denying what seems
And there he will sleep
The man in between
The man on the right was a man undone
The man on the left like a prize unwon
And God only knows
What their time will bring
Or what will become
Of the man in between
Lady Magdalene,
I can hear your distant trumpet
Calling from the morning mountain
Singing to the passing river
Take me home,
Show me peaceful days
Before my youth has gone
Lady Magdalene,
Make the sound of silent thunder
Calling from the lips of Abraham
Make a sound that we may wonder,
Where we are
Take us to your soul
For we have wandered far
Neil Diamond 1974
Album: Serenade
So much sadness here – the son calling out to the mother that no longer exists, anywhere.
“Get me outta here. Please take me home.” But, in terms of mother, we can’t ever go “home” again. That which she gave us (motherly love) has no do-overs. It is our lot to leave father and mother and cling to she who must be obeyed (e.g., see “Eve”). That is the system which God designed: Built specially for the man who needs her, a help that turns out to not be perfect. It is a curious thing to see so many of the created thinking they can escape the design of the Creator.
Oh … wait – here is the real system which God designed: her desire (in both Biblical meanings of the word) will be for her husband, and he will rule over her. What’s love got to do with that, that system design put into place at the very beginning? Nothing about “submission” there. Plenty about “ruling”. That is, the action resides with him, not her. As his help, meet / proper for him, her action depends on what help he requires from her.
Finally, note that he was to rule over the she that his Father gave to him – not the one he went out and got for himself. Somehow we don’t discuss that part of it much.
Without that gift from father, many just sit alone and cry out to “mother” to come and lead them home.
What hath society wrought?
Chris,
Yes, you can only say so much, so many times. My old article posts take time. They are my bread and butter, but no time for the research. Plus, no one is paying you for this and we all espouse the values of family, so therefore a lot of us will actually get offline to be with families. That is our first priority, rather than making sure the men online have reading material. Truth being, there is nothing a woman can say that men can’t say.
I also agree that the answer to everything is “ask your husband”. Articles and posts on submission and how to be a good wife should be the shortest article/book in the world with one page saying “do what your husband requires” and the rest all blank pages.
@Mark
The ‘UGH’ obese,tatted hog with ‘SLUT’ written across her chest?….”keep on walking you slab of beef”.
I can’t understand why feminists wonder why there’s a stereotype of feminists being unattractive.
I think part of the interaction in the first video was female intrasexual competition in action – Lauren was probably the most attractive women there. Besides that, I think many/most feminists seem to demand ideological conformity from women.
Why the surprise? Christian literature loses Joseph, the father figure, rather quickly. His purposes are complete once the young Yeshua is located debating the rabbis in the Temple. Then he disappears.
Only in the Old Testament does a father figure exist for the duration, and following the Old Testament by my view makes one not Christian, for there is non Christ to follow in those chapters.
Add in the fact that under the Catholic brand of Christianity, the clergy are most likely gay and not the types to be parental, and how can one expect any respect for fathers and still be able to practice what the dogma dictates?
It is our lot to leave father and mother and cling to she who must be obeyed (e.g., see “Eve”)
Regarding “she who must be obeyed” please site chapter and verse.
Oh … wait – here is the real system which God designed: her desire (in both Biblical meanings of the word) will be for her husband, and he will rule over her. What’s love got to do with that, that system design put into place at the very beginning? Nothing about “submission” there.
As recorded in Eph. 5:22-24, the apostle Paul wrote:
“22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
And as recorded in Col 3:18 he wrote:
“Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.”
So I guess for you the writings of the apostle Paul do not count. Sorry, but the apostle Peter disagreed with you when he wrote (as recorded in 2 Pet. 3:15-16):
“15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”
And it looks like Peter agreed with Paul about wives submitting to their husbands, as recorded in 1 Pet. 3:1-2:
“1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct.”
But you already know all of this, so why do you keep repeating the same fallacies over and over again? Where is it written that Genesis overrides the New Testament? Why can’t you see that the account in Genesis does not contradict the teachings of Paul and Peter, but rather all are part of the same teaching?
The woman was made for the man, named by the man, and in Christ is to submit to the man. Why is this so difficult for you to see? I’m guessing it is because you are under the thumb of a woman and you like things that way. I hope that is not the case, but when I read things like “she who must be obeyed”, it really looks that way.
I would just like to say that against some very strong competition TFH is surely the most brilliant and perceptive commenter in the Adrosphaire.
… and congratulations to Dalrock in getting a mention in F. Roger Devlin’s excellent hard copy book which I have spent the last three days reading or rather largely re-reading, Sexual Utopia in Power.
Can you believe it was 95 degrees fahrenheit in my apartment on Wednesday! Hotter than the Sahara according to the Mail.
Women are not written about in the Scripture about a man leaving his father and mother because women were relative property at the time it was written. They do not get to stay with their family and do as they wish, though some twist the words to mean that.
====
Salvation is very simple:
Getting through the door requires some simple steps involving the individual believing and confessing specific things. Good works should follow, but getting through the door is the key.
Not making it far on the journey may seem appealing in this life, but is not even then most of the time. It certainly will not be something pleasing in the next life.
A challenge for those who think salvation is so flimsy: Exactly what happens at salvation? How does one lose it? Is it merely an entry into a ledger someplace or is it an inner transformation as indicated in II Cor 5:17? If the latter, what Scriptures show a re-death of the spirit? Or multiple cycles of that for those who believe it is always an iffy thing?
That is why I fall in the eternal security camp, though it is foolish to act stupid even if I am completely correct! It is one area I have no desire to ride near the walls.
====
Marrying a foreign wife and bringing her to the US will still face the same risk. Moving to her country will bring up a whole load of additional risks. No easy path no matter what you choose. Best to actively seek God’s guidance on the matter and trust Him to keep you no matter what happens.
I heard one of these father day sermons… maybe 7, 8 years ago? I don’t go to church much nowadays. It was Calvary Baptist Church in Smyrna, Georgia. Literally, the sort of church where parents frowned on dating and promoted courting, and people traveled far from literal farms.
The father’s day sermon was about King Saul, and a concubine of his who had two sons, and after he was killed and then a treaty had to be made with some protected local tribe he attacked, they demanded the heads of his sons or something. So the new king had the concubine’s sons killed, and the sermon ended with him saying she was a devoted mother even after their deaths, guarding their corpses against the crows.
And people wonder why I’m not a fan of church these days…
Mrs. Thiry
My apologies. The quote can be found at the 06:00 minute mark, not the 26:00 minute mark.
Thanks.
The woman was made for the man, named by the man, and in Christ is to submit to the man.
Seconded a million times. If most men insist on this, the feminist-infected hermaphrodites will naturally be purged from the gene pool, because no one will want to procreate with them, and the women who eventually find husbands will serve as powerful examples to those coming behind: if you must have a man, you must learn to love, honor, serve and support him. The alternative is to die alone as an ugly cat lady, whose decomposing body is accidentally found by the mailman several days after her uneventful departure, and whose exit is mentioned only in connection with the challenges involved in getting rid of her stench.
Marrying a foreign wife and bringing her to the US will still face the same risk.
Not necessarily. Once a person (man or woman) has been primarily socialized, they will subsequently have a hard time changing their core belief systems about right and wrong. Cigarette makers know this well so they tend to market to kids. An adult who grew up believing that smoking is bad will be much less likely to take on smoking as an adult. In the same vein, women who grew up feminine and who are later brought to live in a feminist country will not readily imbibe the new “normal”. As far as those women are concerned, feminism will appear abnormal and thoroughly disgusting. The homosexual crowd also know the importance of primary socialization so they are bombarding the kids everyday with their filth.
The real reason why a foreign woman might take on the feminist characteristics of the host country is that the foreign woman was never truly traditional in the first place; she was not properly vetted. A closer scrutiny would have exposed her for what she was even in her own country.
One trick to use with a foreign woman brought to the US is to treat her like a woman should [originally] be treated. In other words, love her and lead her, and never cut her off from her roots. Make regular annual/biennial visits with her to her country and her people, and take the kids along. Maintain a cordial relationship with her family, because they will help enforce your position as the husband should a challenge arise. Lecture and brainwash her with your own thoughts/ideas/wants/desires on an ongoing basis and extemporaneously. Most importantly, keep her busy and limit her exposure to America’s feminist nonsense. Most [real] women are content when their husbands love them, and provide for them. She will not mind having fewer friends and that might even bring you closer together.
Moving to her country will bring up a whole load of additional risks.
You don’t have to move to any country no matter how feminist America becomes. Personally, I am pretty confident that had I a desire for the American woman, I would tame her right here in the country. But I have lost appetite for any woman brought up under the American influence. Foreign women is the way to go. For any American man who has never dated a non-American woman, I strongly recommend that they do, if just for the experience. Chances are they will never, ever go back to dating an American woman again.
No easy path no matter what you choose. Best to actively seek God’s guidance on the matter and trust Him to keep you no matter what happens.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. We must all seek God’s guidance and help as we weave our paths through life. But we must do this in faith and with confidence, knowing that God is on our side. We cannot afford to be frustrated by the stupidity of feminism.
Account: “This 95-Year-Old Catholic Couple Died in Each Other’s Arms.”
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=968065
I think my daughter in now sexually active
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=968053
An example of a feminine woman who remains disgusted with feminism even after living in America for 15 years. Here
“Marrying a foreign wife and bringing her to the US will still face the same risk.
Not necessarily. Once a person (man or woman) has been primarily socialized, they will subsequently have a hard time changing their core belief systems about right and wrong. ”
I’m not so confident in this assertion. When the benefits are so great (or at least perceived benefits), women being human will change, consciously or unconsciously. The anti-male family court system and divorce laws highly incentivize women to divorce. The danger is so great that I still would not recommend that an American man marry a foreign women and remain in the U.S., no matter how conservative or traditional her upbringing and culture. American culture praises women for being the way they are today. The legal climate rewards bad female behavior in marriage.
@Dave
Pretty incredible that this comes from an Icelandic woman, with Iceland, like the rest of the Scandanavian countries, being one of the most heavily feminist of the lot.
@MarcusD
Ouch. The comments on the second one….some bordered on, “don’t be such a grump. It’s 2015 and she’ll do what she wants. You’re just uptight.”
The one on page 2 with a Catholic woman lamenting that she’d feel terrible if her daughter got pregnant because she forebode the pill struck me particularly. That’s exactly what the provision against artificial birth control in the Catholic church is supposed to prevent: thinking of children as burdens instead of gifts. The problem isn’t the gift. The problem is that the proper circumstances in which to receive the gift were not achieved.
When I was younger, I was into riding dirt bikes and climbing rocks and such. Young men are accustomed to risk. The problem is that the risks often outweigh the rewards in the marriage game. So, what to do?
Marrying a woman who was raised with a strong, loving father is probably the best thing a young bro can do to minimize the risks of ending up in divorce court. Having the father nearby to be on his side or give him counsel (who else knows the wife’s tricks better?) is another upshot. Emigrating to her society, where fathers are respected, is another huge leap into the safe zone.
Of course, there are no sure bets in this life. The vast majority of married bros on this blog hitched up with American women, and most of them seem to be doing OK. With all your precautions, it’s possible that your plane may plow into the side of a hill shortly after takeoff. That sweet, submissive Hungarian girl you married might stab you with a butcher knife and leave you in hospital, after draining your bank account. Anything can happen. The point is to minimize the potential for risks, so that you can get the most out of life. Foreign raised women seem like a better bet in this regard, but in the end, nobody gets to predict the future.
Boxer
“in the First Family of Christianity, the human father is an afterthought.”
St. Joseph was not an afterthought and is mentioned in the NT as often as Mary.
On whether women deliberately and intentionally deceive men as some kind of “Payback” I think this is dead wrong. Women are programmed to spout this bullcrap when asked just as they are programmed to hide ovulation even when their behavior changes are consistent, drastic, and very obvious to the keen observer. I don’t even think it is a cultural thing. I think our Indian, Chinese, and Japanese friends will support my view that it is not a bug in the programming- it IS the programming.
And you may emigrate out to some pristine culture where fathers are respected, only to realize the feminist takeover of your new country is shockingly swift and thorough. What to do then?
In the end, we all get one shot at this life. Bros who are hell bent on marriage and family ought to be prudent and cautious, but to eschew all risks is to consign oneself to living in the basement of his parents house. Life is a risky proposition. Minimize the risks and prepare for the worst, but don’t go so far that you refuse to live.
An intelligent and resourceful man can get by and prosper in nearly any environment. Just be judicious and live a thoughtful life, appreciating all the subtle risks of the situation, so that you’re not surprised down the road.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/aww/
Here’s one of my favorite texts, authored by a Jesuit priest, way back in the day. It’s still relevant.
Boxer
I know a great many couples where the woman is from south east Asia and I have to agree with Dave. Even after many years and some with their kids now grown, these women are NOT like American women. They were brought up with strong family values and taught to respect not only their husbands but men in general. They hate the idea of divorce. For them it is a status hit.
You really have to spend some time with such women to know what Dave is talking about. The difference is like night and day.
@The Karamazov Idea
Ouch. The comments on the second one….some bordered on, “don’t be such a grump. It’s 2015 and she’ll do what she wants. You’re just uptight.”
Many of the female commenters on CAF were promiscuous themselves, thus the thinly-veiled defense of it (e.g. “it’s no big deal because I did it myself”). They defend high N. A few even suggested to a woman in another thread that she lie to a future husband about her STD status (in fact, if they, in their lack of medical expertise, think the STD(s) in question “are not that dangerous” they advise the OP to just pretend it never happened).
CAF is obviously a destructive force towards the Church.
I found a solution that worked for me. I never became a father. MGOTW and loving it :).
Boxer’s comment got me thinking of the downside risk of a foreign bride that is not mentioned: You and she will be from very different mindsets in other areas of life for the most part. This only works if the wife is mere property, in actuality or in effect.
I would want to see more evidence of successes along that route to face such a hill. I would rather face the risk with a US wife than with one I could never connect with. I do enjoy the fact that my wife and I grew up in the same relative period of time and can discuss much of it. That would be impossible with a huge culture difference.
JDG,
Is any of that because they are a bit alienated from white/black/hispanic women in the US? They are not an active immigrant culture these days so I wonder if their exclusion from the mainstream could reinforce what you have seen.
“Boxer’s comment got me thinking of the downside risk of a foreign bride that is not mentioned: You and she will be from very different mindsets in other areas of life for the most part. This only works if the wife is mere property, in actuality or in effect.”
Brad,
You’re right that different mindsets can be a complication. Speaking as somebody who is doing this, I find it fascinating to see my own country through my foreign fiancé’s eyes. It’s like I’m experiencing my country for the first time too. Of course there can be some frustration when different cultures have different ways of doing things and the ideas clash. It’s important that a man and his foreign bride are patient and have commitment to each other.
When a foreign bride comes to a western country, she won’t know a lot about how things happen or what the social cues are, or to even go from place to place. She’ll rely on the husband for everything and become dependent on him and defer to his knowledge and experience at first. This sounds very similar to the biblical vision of marriage, right?
Hopefully, during that initial time, deep bonds can form and appreciation and love can continue to grow from that. Hopefully, this is her priority and not listening to the feminist crap so one has to choose her foreign bride carefully like any American woman.
But I’ll reiterate what others have said, once I dated outside the West it was hard for me to consider dating Americans again. The experience is just a whole lot more pleasurable. Forget trying to hook-up or have sex in the US. Just getting a phone number or an American woman to return your calls is an intractable problem for many men here.
Boxer says there’s no sure bets in life, and I agree. But you might as well pursue marriage in a way that reduces the aggravation.
You and she will be from very different mindsets in other areas of life for the most part.
This wasn’t true for me or for many of my friends with Asian wives. Yes there are differences, but not near as many as the differences you find between a sane man and your average PC indoctrinated local girl.
This only works if the wife is mere property, in actuality or in effect.
This is flat out wrong. It works like anything else. How much time you are willing to put into it makes the difference.
Is any of that because they are a bit alienated from white/black/hispanic women in the US?
Not at all. Like I said, they were brought up with strong family values and taught from their youth to respect their fathers and husbands.
I found a solution that worked for me. I never became a father. MGOTW and loving it :).
Really? Personally, I hate the idea of a choice being forced upon me. Those who became MGTOWs (in the generally accepted sense of the term) when they would rather being in relationships and have a family, are defeated by feminism, in my opinion. They did not make their own choices, but got a choice forced upon them by this ungodly movement. It is like a black person living in Apartheid South Africa saying they loved being relegated to Soweto, when they would rather be in the heart of Johannesburg. I don’t see how anyone could love that.
Why not dust up your passport, and pay a visit to other countries? There are far too many beautiful women out there who will love and appreciate you and thank God everyday for you being in their lives. This is exactly what Jesus would do; this is exactly what He did—He left those ungrateful Jews, and went to the Gentiles who appreciated His salvation more:
He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:… John 1:11, 12
And, the early Apostles did exact same thing: leave those who would not appreciate them and their messages, and go to those who would:
But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” Acts 18:6
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46
Why insist that these ungateful American women must dictate your eternal choices? A man’s attention, affection and love are like a lifeline to a woman. She craves them and literally lives for them, and will do everything under the sun to extract them from a man. Why continue to cast your pearls before swine? Why not give what you have to those who will appreciate it?
Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
Matthew 7:6
In my view, I consider a foreign bride seeker to be MGTOW. He is pursuing his dreams on his own terms.
BradA @ 2:08 pm:
“Boxer’s comment got me thinking of the downside risk of a foreign bride that is not mentioned: You and she will be from very different mindsets in other areas of life for the most part. … I would rather face the risk with a US wife than with one I could never connect with.”
I agree. Looking for a foreign wife is like joining the military; it solves your current problems by giving you entirely new ones. Foreign brides can be good for guys naturally inclined towards exotic cultures and languages but I wouldn’t recommend them for the stay-at-home types.
…
feeriker @ 9:20 am:
“Pretty incredible that this comes from an Icelandic woman, with Iceland, like the rest of the Scandanavian countries, being one of the most heavily feminist of the lot.”
Is Iceland considered part of Scandinavia? They haven’t seemed very feminist in recent years, for example when their bankers wrecked the local economy and became overnight pariahs among their own countrymen.
…
Dave @ 4:34 pm:
“Those who became MGTOWs (in the generally accepted sense of the term) when they would rather being in relationships and have a family, are defeated by feminism, in my opinion.”
Then why do feminists hate MGTOWs? Why aren’t they pleased to see men walking away if that’s their definition of victory?
No tyrant can tolerate the free man.
The 20% divorce rates for foreign brides are too high, but they are much lower than the divorce rate among the locals (50%). The foreign bride samples include mail order brides, which probably includes more than a few “money for visa” business deals.
My sample set of over 100 has a divorce rate of about 3%, and this is among a group made up mostly of Protestants, Catholics, and non-practicing Catholics.
One of the 3% was frivorced by her husband who went back to the Philippines to find another wife. He just wants someone to support him financially and truly has a screw loose IMO. The woman made a good wife.
Another waited until her husband was deceased before getting involved with another man. I know almost nothing about her marriage or the man.
The last example is not from the group mentioned above, but rather is a case involving the parents of a friend. His father was a missionary and his mother took on a career where she became successful and began to make way more money than the father did. At some point she walked away from her husband and possibly her faith too, though I haven’t confirmed it.
There are no guarantees, but IMO shopping in a foreign market makes a lot more sense right now than shopping in the local ones. Maybe not shopping at all makes the most sense for those who can hack it, but it is better to marry than to burn. As always, vet very prayerfully and carefully. I attribute the success of my own marriage to God’s grace, lot’s of answered prayers, and our obedience to His word.
Then why do feminists hate MGTOWs? Why aren’t they pleased to see men walking away if that’s their definition of victory?
There is more to it than that.
1. Men walking away was unanticipated by the feminists. They had assumed that men will continue to show interest in them, but the terms of their relationships will be dictated by the feminists. It was both surprising and disappointing when men simply walked away rather than negotiate with them.
2. Men walking away strikes at the very core of female desirability. To women generally, men walking away, regardless of the reason, tells them that they are not sexually desirable enough. This explains why women can’t handle rejection. It strikes at the very core of her being. Same reason why “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”. She is not angry because the man refused to giver an orgasm, but for telling her she is not sexually desirable enough, even though she had offered herself to him.
But I did not write my earlier response from the feminist’s perspective. My only objective was to see it through the male lens. Did any of these MGTOWs (again, using the term as is generally understood and accepted) become MGTOWs out of personal preference, or the choice was forced upong them? The way to know is this: would they remain MGTOWs if the quality of available women were extremely high? If they would not, then the choice was forced upon them, and they have been defeated by feminism, in my opinion. Note that the nature or type of choice does not matter. Even a man forced against his own will to become a doctor, or an astronaut, when all he would prefer to be was a musician, has been defeated by whatever forced him into making a decision he detests. One great thing about us humans is that we are very adaptable. With time, even Gitmo occupants will come to “love” their new homes. Stockholm Syndrome readily comes to mind.
In my view, I consider a foreign bride seeker to be MGTOW. He is pursuing his dreams on his own terms.
I totally agree with this. Taking it further, only MGTOWs can attract and hold the interests of the right woman. It may be argued that one of the reasons why women get bored with men is because those men are not MGTOWs enough. All grown men are supposed to be MGTOWs, for in being a MGTOW that you show the woman everyday that you live for a higher purpose, and her value to you lies in her helping you to fullfill that higher purpose.
And, no, raising kids, getting a job and paying your bills is not the higher purpose of which we speak, though they are all very important. All animals do that in one form or another. True MGTOWs are committed to a life mission which totally consumes them and focuses their energies.
Unfortunately, the term “MGTOW”, as is generally understood and accepted, does not reflect this.
I almost ended up being divorced by my Colombian wife and being part of the 20%. Ironically, even though I knew from the beginning to avoid American women, I only discovered the red pill recently, after googling “How do Christian women justify divorce?” I had been repeatedly threatened with divorce, told “I don’t love you,” and basically treated like garbage over 2 of our 4 years of marriage.
I think that being the first foreigner she had met, and of much greater education and wealth, enabled me to give just enough appearance of alpha at first. That doesn’t last.
Even with a hot Latina, if you try to appease her instead of staying in charge, and don’t bang her often enough, you’ll be in serious problems. And apparently, protestant Christianity in Colombia doesn’t protect against the “God wants me to be happy” mentality.
At least my disillusionment helped me learn that I should be her leader, not her servant.
I’m still very much in favor of Latinas. They’re worth it, but be prepared!
“Best course of action is to write the stuff you desire, while taking pains to try and be more of an influence on open-hearted wives in your immediate, real life circle.”
Definitely! Many in real life read my articles already… so its a point of conversation in a good way because they actually see our marriage in real life. I had one friend that’s older than me and married longer that told me recently that she loves how we are with each other – how its so obvious how much fun we have together and how it’s made her want to put more effort into her own marriage just watching us (and she reads my blog, too). So yes, I don’t have the chance for a “dual life” here on the internet. My real life people keep me in check.
@ Dave says:
July 3, 2015 at 4:44 pm
“Failure of preachers to do this is the primary reason a lot of people who claim to be Christians never really knew God. No one can truly accept Christ’s salvation until convicted of his sins and he sees his powerlessness in saving himself.”
Agreed. Touchy-feely, Joel Osteen-style preachers of today who refuse to give people the bad news (without which The Good News make no sense) are the ones of whom Paul warned us.
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
They will reap their reward.
One of the main reasons for seeking wife-material abroad is because one does not have the Western mindset.
Exactly!
I think it is good that women like lgrobins and Elpseth and Sunshine Thiry post their stuff. Feminists are most frightened, and men most heartened, by women who reject feminism.
Otherwise, it is easy for feminists to write antifeminist material off as being only the opinions of bitter males.
That is also why the WomenAgainstFeminism movement was such an encouraging development among (often attractive) young women. I noticed some of the reactions to that from older, feminist women; and their shock was palpable.
When one spouse gives up on the marriage
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=968172
@ GeminiXcX says:
July 4, 2015 at 10:19 pm
“How much of the ‘failure’ of preachers is actually deliberate? These ‘teachers’ exist, because they know they’re being searched for. Give the people what they want to hear (not what they need to hear) keeps pews full and cash-flow coming in.”
It looks deliberate to me. Your reasoning seems sound.
Statins linked to lower aggression in men, higher in women
https://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2015-07-01-statins-and-aggression-in-women.aspx
Student Sugar Babies Increase 1200%
http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2015/07/03/student-sugar-babies-increase-1200
However, you kind of put your foot in your mouth, and my foot up your a**, with this one, you boob.
I agree that Brad didn’t intend any insult or malice with his comment. It is, unfortunately, one that is frequently made by jealous and/or scorned American women, whether feminist or not, who seeth with rage at what they can’t even begin to compete with; American men shackled to stereotypical American wives and who are bitter about not having chosen more wisely, or Americans of either sex who have never traveled abroad and are both ignorant of and hostile to anything foreign. Not very reputable company to be lumped in with.
The Christian and secular propaganda just as the female fantasy tries to create the completely unrealistic phantom of the SUBMISSIVE ALPHA. A man who is exciting and tingle-inducing, but also submissive when it counts.
But the truth is that Alpha always exerts authority – this is what makes the woman even more interested in him. No woman and not even most churches would acknowledge that fact, that men should rather be more dominant and take the reigns of the household into their own hands. They shouldn’t fuss over their shortcomings like some sniveling fools. Healthy masculinity is unafraid of itself and that is what makes it so much fun and exciting for women, because their nature is completely opposite to it.
Trying to erect the mythical SUBMISSIVE ALPHA simply does not work – the man either becomes a domesticated weakling that hardly any woman is interested in (often divorce) or a woman attempts to tame a Dark Triad man with plenty of vices, which of course backfires on her even more as those men can’t properly form healthy relationships. The few Red Pill men who have unleashed the Alpha withing are precious few, but at least that community is growing worldwide.
These “teachers” exist, because they know they’re being searched for. Give the people what they want to hear (not what they need to hear) keeps pews full and cash-flow coming in.
This is precisely why I favor non-paid, volunteer ministries. You wanna be a preacher? Great! Keep your secular job, and preach without being paid; it shows your commitment to the Lord’s work. Let the donations go for what it was meant for: the Lord’s work, not to create a cushy lifestyle for some overfed preacher.
The pastor who leads at my local church still keeps his secular employment, and he is not being paid by the church organization. He does not even get into the finances. All donations/funds generated by the local branch are handled by an independent body, which forward them to the head office. The local church may request money to meet expenses, but it never takes money directly from the locally generated revenue.
With few exceptions, only the church secretary and maybe very few heads of ministries could go full time. Everyone else should be unpaid volunteers. Jesus learned carpentry and, when the going got tough, He made money come out of a fish. Paul learned tent-making, and patched tents to pay his bills. Peter was an accomplished fisherman. Matthew worked for the Roman IRS. He was probably an accountant. Luke was a highly skilled physician who had access to the most noblemen of his day.
But many preachers of today? Most have no marketable skills outside the church. It is a shame, actually, because as long as they depend on the church members for their income, they cannot be true to their callings.
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Matthew 6:24
Zelcorpion… No woman and not even most churches would acknowledge that fact, that men should rather be more dominant and take the reigns of the household into their own hands. They shouldn’t fuss over their shortcomings like some sniveling fools. Healthy masculinity is unafraid of itself and that is what makes it so much fun and exciting for women, because their nature is completely opposite to it.”
No woman? LOL I just wrote this last night and it says exactly what you’re saying.
http://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2015/07/05/the-nice-guy-wants-to-be-your-partner-not-a-leader/
JDG:
>The 20% divorce rates for foreign brides are too high, but they are much lower than the divorce rate among the locals (50%).
Women, and some lazy/emotional men, may argue from emotion. A wise person argues from results and facts. I have seen the 20% rate that JDG cites given by some department of the US government.
The relative rates mean that, even with the few “money for visa” fraudsteresses that JDG mentions, and even with the cultural disagreements that Brad mentions, these foreign bride marriages have less than half the chance of failure and betrayal.
Gee, I can have less than half the risk, for the cost of a few plane tickets…. Let me think….
My personal experiences agree with what Dave and JDG have written. I encourage anyone looking for a wife to do so elsewhere. My biggest problem is that I could only go for 2 weeks. I had enough time to start pursuing one woman, and it turned out I did not choose a wise candidate. But that one case does not disprove the massive difference between women there and here.
And yes, there are exceptions… but these women are a very small minority. Some women who comment here show themselves as great examples.
Dave:
>The way to know is this: would they remain MGTOWs if the quality of available women were extremely high? If they would not, then the choice was forced upon them, and they have been defeated by feminism, in my opinion.
I see your point, but I choose to say that I was victorious, being able to have the self-respect and self-confidence to demand I be treated better than garbage. My own parents think I should marry an ugly, unattractive, and disobedient “Christian” woman. Of course they would not admit that quite so bluntly. But they ignore the kinds of women on offer (here), and think I should be able to marry one.
So, I consider myself at least partially a success. Sure, I’d like to find and marry a good woman. But marrying a bad one seems hateful toward myself and toward my future children.
GeminiXcX and Brad:
>‘BradA on July 4, 2015 at 2:08 pm
>This only works if the wife is mere property, in actuality or in
>effect.’
>I’m assuming this part of your comment was made in ignorance as well,
>but your assertion of rubbish here just insulted my wife, as well as
>me.
>Feminists degrade foreign women as slaves/property. I suggest for you
>to reconsider your position.
Brad is right… if he has, on this topic, the worldview and principles of a feminist. Many feminists would say that I want to treat my wife like property. I will do what I can to have a strong marriage, including limiting her ability to be rewarded for divorce by being able to steal my house/property. I expect to be the leader, and will have the attitude she follows or gets left behind. Ballroom dancing can be great for teaching this.
Since my attitudes conform, as best I can, to Scripture however, I of course do not see them as bad. So I agree with Gemini’s statement that Brad was being a boob 🙂
Dave at 7:20
>This is precisely why I favor non-paid, volunteer ministries. You wanna be a preacher? Great! Keep your secular job, and preach without being paid; it shows your commitment to the Lord’s work.
That is a great post. I am not sure why so few others understand these points. Yes, Paul wrote about the minister getting money from the gospel.
1 Cor 9 says:
9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.”[b] Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
But, the same guy that was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write/dictate the above, also included this as the very next statement:
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
And in 2 Thess 3:10-12, he says that when he himself was with the Thessalonians, he had the rule that if you do not work, you do not eat. I.e., Paul worked in order to eat. I am positive that meant work other than serving the gospel.
Paul shows both sides: providing for yourself, and being provided for by the gospel. So I think pastors should follow Paul’s example, and provide for themselves at least half-way.
@Dragonfly – exceptions exist in the West and they confirm the rule.
I found women become nervous when I talk to them and their husbands/boyfriends the first time about the Red Pill. Not only do they fear that their man might become more aware of what is happening, be much more difficult or impossible to control and manipulate or might even leave them (if they are not married yet). They have been brainwashed so much by the anti-male propaganda, that submission to her is like the worst hell imaginable and the 1950s were times of abject horror and female oppression.
And the complete disconnect with reality is that the man who turns them on like in 50 Shades is absolutely dominant and has total control over her. But alas – the lover is someone else to women than the husband, who is the provider chump. The exciting billionaire lover can defile her all he wants. Her husband however must behave according to her emotional whims. Exceptions exist, but usually those women come coupled with those few positive Alpha men. The same women behave differently when being with their Beta boyfriends.
You’re in or from Poland right? My mom’s family is 1/2 from Poland and they seemed to have different ideas of femininity & sex than American women.
I moved to Poland a few years ago, but grew up in multiple Western countries and know the difference intimately. And the women here are getting Westernized by the months despite most of them being Catholics.
Some of the ones in the US are probably more traditionally minded than the ones in Poland.
Arguing that risks don’t exist is idiotic. Blaming someone noting them as a feminist shows that you have not fully engaged your brain.
Are any of you really going to claim:
– The foundational experiences of 2 people raised in 2 different cultures will not be different?
– That a woman can live in the modern American culture without any risk of being converted by it?
– Acknowledging risk automatically makes one a feminist or whatever “bad” group you want to name?
You did immediately back off and admit (using your numbers) that marrying a foreign woman will not remove the risk of here being changed by this cuture.
Some of you need to study risk better. You would do poorly in business or life in general if you ignore a risk because it doesn’t fit your pet suggestion. A smart person counts the complete cost and does not rely on others to think for him.
None of you would make it long in the security field, where thinking of risk is an underlying principle. Ignoring something can be VERY costly!
Perhaps you are looking in the mirror too much that you are seeing your own reflections and tossing out the term book too freely. Maybe you stopped realizing that the world is not a simple set of rules that you can ever tightly control. Fortunately, that is not my job to correct.
Having a foreign wife, wherever the location, is not a panacea. Accusing me of being a feminist because I successfully consider all risk is laughable, though too common.
@MarcusD: That video made me spit my coffee out. Basic organizing 001- 8th grade class President campaign level is to have a “Kill Squad” ready to go into action in case a speaker is heckled. You just surround the heckler with signs and drown out anything they try to say with cheers.
Every single Presidential campaign stop has these plans in place- all 20 of them or so- every single time they appear in public. This is so basic I am still laughing. These chicks had YEARS to plan this “Slut Walk” event. LMFAO.
On foreign brides.
I spent some time living in the kind of country where western men had a lot of success finding girlfriends and wives. I completely understood the appeal of the local women, who were generally very beautiful and sweet (at least when they were young…), and I became friends with many of the local women and so had an inside view into their lives. I found that usually the women I would most want to marry off to the western men I knew–the women who were most traditional and with the gentlest souls–were not usually the ones who were dating anyone at all, much less a westerner, because, of course, they were the most respectful of their culture’s mores.
I left with the impression that western men who come looking for a wife should try not to be blinded by the apparent “paradise” of women but use extra time and discernment in order to learn this culture’s own social cues. The women who were most interested in western men and most open to dating them still appeared very demure in comparison to western women (and they perfectly understood that this was part of their charm), but of course they were also in many ways the least traditional and had their own motivations for being adventurous. So it seems worth it to take a lot of time to be able to see past the initial impressions in order to understand the women of a culture more clearly. Also, if you spend a lot of time there, you can perhaps come to know and become more acceptable to the kind of women you are actually seeking.
I had two other notes of caution. First, make sure that the culture is one you are comfortable with your descendants identifying with. Every culture has its negative aspects, but you should choose a culture that you can live with happily, since it is entirely possible that your children will see themselves in the light of that culture and choose to embrace it, and on down through the generations. You are taking that culture on as part of your legacy, so pick the culture of your potential foreign bride with discernment.
Second, study the middle-aged women of the culture to make sure you can live with them. (This is like the advice to study the mother of a potential bride, but on a society-wide basis as well as an individual level.) Sometimes there is the expectation that a woman will “pay her dues” as a young woman by being deferential, but once she is older then it is her turn to become very demanding and even aggressive.
@MrRoach
Protestantism is rooted in rejecting the authority of the Pope to speak for God, an authority no man has a right to claim.
@ MarcusD says:
July 5, 2015 at 1:11 am
“Statins linked to lower aggression in men, higher in women”
Even more reason (as if we needed more) to get and stay fit. Compound movements with heavy barbells (squats, deadlifts, presses, cleans, snatches) stimulate the body to produce more testosterone, as does eating red meat. By getting and staying fit, we avoid the need for statins. And we make ourselves more masculine.
And the women here are getting Westernized by the months despite most of them being Catholics.
That totally sucks as I thought Poland was one of the few countries in Europe that still has (had?) strong Christian values.
Are any of you really going to claim:
– The foundational experiences of 2 people raised in 2 different cultures will not be different?
I didn’t see anyone make this claim. The argument is that the differences are often an asset rather than a liability, and that problematic differences are usually over come with less effort than the differences between a feminist and a sane man. Even if they weren’t the extra work would be more than worth it.
– That a woman can live in the modern American culture without any risk of being converted by it?
No one made this claim either. The argument is that the risk is much less, and it is.
– Acknowledging risk automatically makes one a feminist or whatever “bad” group you want to name?
This wasn’t argued either. You wrote: “This only works if the wife is mere property, in actuality or in effect.” Which sounds a lot like a feminist position.
Perhaps you could explain what you meant by “This only works if the wife is mere property, in actuality or in effect“.
Western women would consider any woman actually living up to the biblical teachings of wife like behavior as being treated as property. In spite of feminist wishful thinking, this “property” model is the representation that works best. Furthermore (as it turns out), foreign women are often brought up to honor these Bible based teachings (which I repeat, feminists believe equivalent to treating women like property).
Thousands upon thousands of families (of which I am acquainted with more than a few) have made cross culture marriages work just fine. The wives in these families would be amazed to learn that they are merely property (as would their husbands).
Gents,
Concerning foreign (non-Western) wives:
I’m technically a foreign husband who married an American wife, so I don’t have a dog in this hunt, but it seems to me that you’d want to carefully screen candidates for marriage regardless of their origin. A typical two week vacation isn’t enough time to do that.
If you have family in the country of your choice, you can probably get them to pre-screen some candidates and play matchmaker for you, but my guess is that few of you have that luxury.
That means you need to actually live in the foreign country of your choice for a year or more. Not every profession gives you the opportunity to do that, but you can probably figure out a way to make it happen. If you do, you can attend a local church and meet ladies there.
Alternately, you could attend an immigrant church in the States. For example, in my home town there is a Ukrainian congregation.
Either way, be prepared to prove yourself – not to the young ladies you’re targeting as potential mates – but to the older ladies of the church, especially the empty-nesters. They won’t accept you right away. They’ll be suspicious of you. But if you manage to convince them that you’re good husband material, they’ll pre-screen young ladies for you and introduce them to you.
Also, be prepared for those older ladies to be nosy, pushy and overbearing. They have a lot invested in their communities, and they’ll want to vet you before letting you in. Don’t even bother “gaming” the young ladies. That’ll earn you the older ladies’ scorn, and they won’t introduce you to the good ones (or any, really). The ones you can “game” aren’t the ones you want, anyway.
And make friends with the men in the church. You’ll never overcome the older ladies’ suspicion if you don’t.
Good luck, gents.
@BradA
Regarding Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven Life”, it’s come about through a process of the Hegelian Dialectic. White Paint (Thesis of Truth) + Black Paint (Antithesis of Lies) = Grey Paint (Synthesis of Compromise). Do this enough and eventually, all you have is Black Paint.
The best advice I’ve ever read regarding researching sound theology was to read what early Church Father’s commentaries on various subjects. There is nothing new under the sun, that includes finding a “new meaning” in scriptures to tickle the ears of those who will not stand for sound doctrine. There is an abundance of shallow nonsense to be found in Christian bookstores these days.
I used to attend an SBC Seeker-Friendly Mega Church near me and there always seemed to be a push for small groups to take on the latest “Christian” book that was popular. The Purpose Driven Life was one of them. Looking back on these books, most of them had sound teaching, but almost all of them had a sprinkling of secular psychobabble or elements of outright heretical crap. The bad thing about them was the eagerness to adopt a new book without taking the time to review the material because of the book’s “buzz”.
Either way, be prepared to prove yourself – not to the young ladies you’re targeting as potential mates – but to the older ladies of the church, especially the empty-nesters. They won’t accept you right away. They’ll be suspicious of you. But if you manage to convince them that you’re good husband material, they’ll pre-screen young ladies for you and introduce them to you.
Great advice. American men looking to marry non-American women need to know that most of these women do respect the views of their elders, and will often defer to them. They are used to being in submission to those they consider to be above themselves. Often, they will do things in obedience to their parents/elders, even if they would rather do otherwise. The rebellion to authorities that is so common with American women is glaringly absent with foreign women. So, American men should always remember that they often do not need to do much to convince the would-be foreign brides to be with them, but must demonstrate their worthiness to the parents and guardians of those women.
And, that is a great thing actually. A woman who is used to respecting authority of her parents and other elders will have litle difficulties submitting to the authority of her husband.
I am currently talking to a foreign woman. During one of our conversations, we talked about Facebook, and she happens to have a FB profile. As I checked her profile I joked that “How come you have more FB friends than me? You’re not supposed to have so many friends!”
I was only joking actually, and did not mean anything by that comment.
She immediately responded that “If you don’t want me on FB I will get off the site”.
Wao! I didn’t expect that response at all. But I began to respect her a bit more by her submissive attitude.
Bomb explodes at Winnipeg law office, leaving woman with severe injures, police say
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/bomb-explodes-at-winnipeg-law-office-leaving-woman-with-severe-injures-police-say
—
Commenters on various Canadian newspapers suspected that this was either revenge against the lawyer’s husband or something to do with her own focus (family law). As it turns out, it was the latter – the lawyer in question was the wife’s lawyer during their ten year divorce proceedings.
@All My American Friends
Have yourselves a GREAT “Independence Day Weekend”
Thank you, but I don’t see the point of celebrating the Independence Day of a Country that has voluntarily eschewed it’s hard-fought for freedoms only to be enslaved again for the empty promises of security and provision. Independence Day in a America should be a day of mourning.
Dave, it is indeed a good sign. However many women have that instinctive submissive behaviour, especially early in a courtship. It can change in my experience, as a woman’s true personality kicks in.
Persistent submissive instincts are the most desirable. Ideally, they last throughout a marriage. Although I think “game” helps, I suspect a lot of this is just how the particular woman is made. Some women just “ask permission” and so on and hardly seem aware they are doing it. Others treat getting you a beer as if it were an international diplomatic incident.
@Reg G ” Independence Day in a America should be a day of mourning.”
Chin up, old thing. Your XX-chromosome kickyball team thrashed the Japs 5-2 last night. Campeones, campeones, ole ole ole!
And we’ve got more than a few spare Royals kicking about (lack of recent GoT type dynastic strife, unfortunately), if you want to reconsider all that Tea & Shouting unpleasantness. Young Harry seems a natural fit for your national style, what say ye?
Would that it were so simple, Laura. While I agree with you that it should be that simple, unfortunately for many women the issue is not one of obedience, but heart attitude. It’s one thing for a wife to obey the way a child does when you tell him to eat his vegetables or clean his room. He has done what is required, but often with his whole body offering the real feelings behind his obedience. But you expect some of that from an 8-year-old who doesn’t fully appreciate the long term reward that comes from learning obedience today.
It’s a different issue when it comes to husband and wife. If you have been friends with or related to a couple who operates on this dynamic (and my husband has a friend who could have written that), then you quickly see the difference between “just do as your husband requires” and a sincere desire to do as your husband requires. The first is a childlike, pouting obedience because you have to. The latter is borne of growth in faith in God and loving gratitude for what your husband adds to your life. Husbands know the difference, as indicated in the linked comment.
2 Corinthians 9:7 says that even God wants us to give to Him as we have purposed in our hearts, not grudgingly or of necessity, for He loves a cheerful giver. If God, who is all loving and merciful, prefers loving and cheerful obedience, how well do we expect a man to take a wife who doles her “submission” out piecemeal solely because she has to? Sometimes circumstances dictate that it’s all you can muster, but always?
Submission and obedience are actually not the same thing, which is why women like Lori Alexander and April at The Peaceful Wife are valuable. Someone needs to help wives who want it learn the tools to crucify their flesh and to respect and submit to their husbands joyfully. My ego was too quick to get in the way of my ability to do that online. I have decided to plant seeds as the opportunity presents and move on trusting that God will provide others to water and that He will give the increase. As Dragonfly described, standing down and simply living real life often provokes curious questions and comments which provide an opportunity to drop a seed and move on.
I appreciate Chris noting that my marriage advice was rarely ever more specific that “listen to your husband”, and the kind words from Julian and Mark, but it takes a certain special kind of woman to attempt Titus 2 online unless you’re going to do it privately, and I have come to grips with the fact that I ain’t her.
I should clarify that my comment was in response to lgrobins. Lots of Laura’s around here now, LOL.
Be cautious. As career military, I saw many a serviceman marry and ‘bring back’ a foreign wife to the Land of the Big PX. Many, perhaps nearly a majority, went “American woman” within 5-10 years of being here, and were as bad if not worse than the native-born.
Interestingly also, though, I know a woman who married a stereotypical ‘macho’ Brazilian in South America, they came back to the US, and in 5 years he went completely Beta. She left him. *chuckle*
Men walking away was unanticipated by the feminists. They had assumed that men will continue to show interest in them, but the terms of their relationships will be dictated by the feminists. It was both surprising and disappointing when men simply walked away rather than negotiate with them.
Indeed. In rough terms, men in the USA are what kulaks were to the USSR – they are seen as an enemy of the system as long as they act as a class with its own interests. Their labor is harnessed and their existence is tolerated, but never on their own terms. Those terms are dictated by the government, and the formerly “oppressed” classes, i.e. women and nonwhites. Anyone of them who shows any resistance to the new normalcy is marked for “neutralization” one way or another. They are all assumed to have an innately backward, oppressive mentality that needs to be monitored and fixed.
This reduces his chances to mate, and thus reduces the chance of grandchildren, so the female psyche is flawed even in terms of this biological imperative.
It’s not flawed. As far as the situation of her son is concerned, her primary imperative is to compel him to support her and care for her when she’s old. That’s why it’s common for mothers to betaize their sons. Whether he sires children or not is of secondary importance.
In a more Freudian sense, women have a lot of lingering and residual resentment against men, even those with good husbands.
As far as I can tell, it’s fairly common for women to experience resentment. The average woman resents that she can get pregnant and that all sorts of average men hit on her. When she becomes old, she resents that she cannot get pregnant anymore and that men no longer hit on her. She’s under the constant, simmering impression that she was somehow “wronged” by Nature, God, Providence, men etc. She believes she deserves more, but was tricked out of a better fate.
Pingback: Modern Christian culture’s deep antipathy for fathers We live… | Honor Dads
In rough terms, men in the USA are what kulaks were to the USSR – they are seen as an enemy of the system as long as they act as a class with its own interests. Their labor is harnessed and their existence is tolerated, but never on their own terms.
In the USSR, the kulaks, both real and imagined, were exterminated.
@ PokeSalad says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:05 am
“As career military, I saw many a serviceman marry and ‘bring back’ a foreign wife to the Land of the Big PX. Many, perhaps nearly a majority, went ‘American woman’ within 5-10 years of being here, and were as bad if not worse than the native-born.”
I observed a lot of that in my own 22 years in the Army. But we need to admit that the majority of wives Soldiers bring back from overseas are bar sluts. They’re not the kinds of girls typically pre-screened by church matrons.
I once wondered why so many societies had to periodically designate some women as ‘witches’ and exile them from society (or worse). The reason for this is now apparent…
A mundane explanation is that such women were mostly common criminals. They performed illegal abortions, sold poison, illegal aphrodisiacs, contraceptives and snake oil, recruited prostitutes and/or prostituted themselves etc. The usual antics of sleazebag women. It was convenient to get rid of them by making them confess to witchcraft.
In the USSR, the kulaks, both real and imagined, were exterminated.
A minority of them were. The rest were resettled to Siberia and other remote regions, or were forced to join a collective farm after their belongings were confiscated. The level of repression depended on the level of threat they were deemed to represent to the new order. The policy was to liquidate them as a class.
Oscar knows what he’s talking about. Virtuous young women usually are found in the same place that virtuous older women are found, who aren’t afraid to set boundaries. (And you’ll find men of virtue not far from them as well.)
They will (rightly) view someone with suspicion who wants to swoop in and poach on of their women, since they know you will then fill up her head with ideas about equality and why her traditional culture is stupid and should be abandoned, and they will question your ability to provide true, masculine leadership.
You’d be a lot better off reforming your own culture / religion and then picking off one of the virtuous women left in it. I sure know plenty of virtuous women who were born in America, hold American passports, etc.
But we need to admit that the majority of wives Soldiers bring back from overseas are bar sluts. They’re not the kinds of girls typically pre-screened by church matrons.
Yep! Vetting is essential even over seas, but IMO it is well worth it under current circumstances. Just another side note, I don’t agree that one must live in the woman’s country for a year to properly vet her. Myself and several of my friends did so with out doing this. In fact, this occurred in very few of the 100 or so families that I and my wife are acquainted with. As I mentioned before 97% of those marriages are still intact.
@ Dave says:
July 6, 2015 at 12:10 am
“Great advice.”
@ J N says:
July 6, 2015 at 4:14 pm
“Oscar knows what he’s talking about.”
@ JDG says:
July 6, 2015 at 5:02 pm
“Yep! Vetting is essential even over seas, but IMO it is well worth it under current circumstances. Just another side note, I don’t agree that one must live in the woman’s country for a year to properly vet her.”
Thanks for the feedback, gents. I need to stress that I’m not writing from personal experience here. As you may – or may not – know, I’m a Central American immigrant to the US who married an American woman.
I am, however, writing from personal observation. The behavior I wrote about is how the matrons of the immigrant churches I attended as a kid handled things. They have enormous influence in the community, and guard the girls’ honor with zeal.
It’s also how my aunts and cousins attempted to handle things for me. A younger cousin of mine visited my family in the US (she’s drop-dead-gorgeous, and now married to a very fortunate American man, by the way). She returned home with lots of photos. Just weeks later my mom received all kinds of requests from her sisters for me to fly down and meet girls with whom they wanted to match me. I was already dating my wife, so I politely declined.
If a man finds a different process by which to successfully vet young ladies overseas, more power to him. I just know that the process I observed is time tested.
Again, good luck gents. And be careful out there. Gold diggers are a universal phenomenon.
@ JDG
I should have added; it may be very helpful to the group if you’d explain the vetting process you and your friends went through.
J N says:
July 6, 2015 at 4:14 pm
“I sure know plenty of virtuous women who were born in America, hold American passports, etc.”
Amish women commonly get passports? Would never have guessed it.
Hells Hound:
“She’s under the constant, simmering impression that she was somehow “wronged” by Nature, God, Providence, men etc. She believes she deserves more, but was tricked out of a better fate.”
Yes, and I have read almost exactly that in a woman’s magazine.
The current “solution” is for women to try to be “the equals” of men, even to use the language men use in describing sex for example. It is ultimately doomed to failure.
The most contented women are probably those brought up in the “old regime” who were not lied to about their nature, and who embraced it.
Pingback: Lightning Round – 2015/07/08 | Free Northerner
Pingback: Disrespecting respectability, dishonoring the honorable. | Dalrock
Pingback: What would it look like for Christians to honor husbands and fathers? | The Sunshine Thiry Blog
Pingback: “What Would it Look Like for Christians to Honor Fathers and Husbands?” | See, there's this thing called biology...
And exactly why don’t the men that ARE good fathers and Christians stand up and challenge this? Cowards. Pecksniff preachers stand and insult good men and the women who are the cause of all this sit unchallenged for THEIR behavior? Nonsense.
Pingback: Feminist self loathing | Dalrock
“And you can’t name one TV show right now that has a really good, honourable father” – I can .. Spiderman uncle Ben .. he is acting father but still is.
Pingback: Did he take notes? | Dalrock
Pingback: This Isn’t the 1950s Anymore! | The Anarchist Notebook
well, they had to make “promise keepers” for christian dudes who were crap dads and husbands. it was huge. because believing in imaginary friends as an adult dude tends to effect the judgement. when god is a man, a man feels way too much in common with god. women don’t have that.
men really are screw ups on a large scale. they need to use their free will to stop themselves and repent. and i’ve been to a mother’s day sermon where head dude talked about how wombs are soon going to be made in labs.
1) lol. no they won’t.
2) that is way creepier and way worse than bros being told to man up.
Pingback: We need to focus on respect instead of fairness. | Dalrock
Pingback: Don’t fear marriage and fatherhood, but beware those who are working to destroy your family. | Dalrock
Pingback: What Prager and Wilcox are selling. | Dalrock
Pingback: Good advice for interesting times. | Dalrock
Pingback: God’s Drill Instructors (language warning) | Dalrock
Pingback: Will Wilcox and the men of National Review respect you in the morning? | Dalrock
Pingback: How the Kendricks, Rainey, and Lepine see the married fathers they go to church with. | Dalrock
Pingback: Christian films show the feminist revolution’s power - Fabius Maximus website
Pingback: Can a strong America be built with broken families? - Fabius Maximus website
Pingback: The government solves the fatherhood crisis! - Fabius Maximus website