Regular readers of the blog are aware of the tragic situation with Pastor Saeed Abedini (see the tag with his name at the bottom of the post or start here, here, here and here). One aspect of this tragedy that I haven’t fully discussed is the truly profound change in the narrative which occurred starting in late October of 2015.
The original focus.
Until October 24, 2015 the focus was on the persecution of Pastor Saeed for his faith in Christ, as well as the messages he had to teach. Two years ago the ACLJ published a deeply moving letter he sent to his wife Naghmeh. The ACLJ explains that the letter was “written on the margins of scraps of newspaper”. Pastor Seed opens the letter describing how he wasn’t able to recognize his own face after all of the beatings he had endured. He described the pain and anguish of being persecuted, and how even here he found joy through his faith (emphasis mine):
I could not fall sleep one night due to the pain when all of a sudden I could hear the sound of dirty sewer rats with their loud noises and screeches. It was around 4 in the morning. It sounded like laughter in a way.
…but I knew that in the eyes of Jesus Christ, and in the eyes of my brothers and sisters, I am like the sewer rat, beautiful and loveable – not disgusting and unclean – and like the rats I can scream with joy within those prison walls and worship my Lord in joy and strength.
His focus in the letter was on forgiveness, and he described how he was teaching this to his cell-mate. He explained how he is practicing this as well:
I forgave the prison doctor who did not listen to me and did not give me the medication that I needed. I forgave the interrogator who beat me. Every day when I would see the interrogator and for the last time when I saw him, I forgave him. I smiled at him and with respect shook his hand and I said my goodbye. The minute I forgave them and loved them, that second I was filled with unspeakable joy. I saw in the eyes of the interrogator that he had come to respect me and as he was leaving, he could not look behind him. Love is as strong as death.
Even though he is confined in a prison thousands of miles away, Pastor Saeed still found a way to wash his wife in the water of the word:
Surely you have someone in your family, city, work or environment that have become like poisonous snake who have bitten you and tried to make you poisonous. So, forgive them and use the antidote of love and be Victorious!
The entire letter is very much worth reading, although I will warn you that it is very painful to read.
On June 30th 2015 the ACLJ published a beautiful letter from Naghmeh to Saeed. In the letter she describes how much she misses him, and how she wishes she could care for him. She closes the letter with a promise that just six months later is bitterly ironic:
Saeed, your wife wants you to know that you are NOT forgotten. You are covered in prayer. Your wife and the body of Christ are standing with you. We are giving you what prison walls cannot take away. We are giving you our prayers.
Your loving wife,
Naghmeh
In early September 2015, the ACLJ published an update from Naghmeh to Pastor Saeed’s supporters. The update reminded readers of Pastor Saeed’s suffering and how important it is for someone suffering like he is to know he has not been forgotten:
I made sure that he was told that I had not given up the fight. That we had not given up the fight for his release. That despite government shortcomings, none of us were giving up. That we were getting on our knees and praying and fasting for him each day leading up to the prayer vigil. I knew that during the short prison visits he needed to know that he was not forgotten.
“Remember the prisoners as if chained with them—those who are mistreated—since you yourselves are in the body also.” Hebrews 13:3 (NKJV)
Saeed spoke of a cellmate who died this week in the prison because of lack of medical treatment. Saeed and other prisoners worry about their own medical conditions that continue to go untreated. Saeed has held onto hope that he would be released before his medical condition became too critical.
For several more months the focus continued on Pastor Saeed’s suffering, the lessons he had to teach, and the need to bring him home. During this time Naghmeh clearly continued to work tirelessly to keep him in the minds of Christians and everyone else in the West (as she had for years). As just two examples: In September she announced that she would be fasting for Saeed and the persecuted church. On October 2nd 2015 she retweeted a series of tweets from the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, which themselves were quotes from their interview of her:
The beginning of the change.
Her efforts continued throughout the month of October, including her October 23rd Op Ed in the Washington Post. However, the very next day marked a turning point. On October 24th she tweeted about a “great article” in Christian Today titled: Like her husband Pastor Saeed Abedini, Naghmeh also under fire for her strong Christian faith. The article opens with:
In a new twist to the saga of American pastor Saeed Abedini who is languishing in Iranian prison, it turns out he is not the only one in his family who is on trial for his Christian faith.
Sharing a similar fate as her husband, Naghmeh Abedini said she is also under fire, not from Iranian authorities, but from radical Muslims and even Christians who question her faith…
This all started with a facebook post by Naghmeh where she wrote about criticism she had received:
I have been told many things of which some have been that I am not a good mom for traveling so much…that how could I possibly share about Christ when I have not even been to a Bible School. I have been criticized from what I wear to what I say to the way I parent…
Taking a page from her husband’s letter to her two years ago, she encouraged her followers to learn from her and forgive their tormentors. However, she doesn’t present this as a lesson she learned from Pastor Saeed, but as something recently revealed to her in the Old Testament:
I use to break to pieces after each attack and criticism, but recently the Lord has been speaking to me through the life of Moses. That I should use the attacks to keep me humble. That I should respond as Moses responded. To intercede and ask the Lord to forgive them and to not hold it against them. To have a heart of compassion for them (instead of a heart of bitterness) and to truly know that they do not know what they are doing….We see here that Moses’ response to attacks on himself was to intercede for those attacking him. Because of his response and humility we see the Lord stepping in and defending him.
Today, can you cry out to God for those attacking you? Can you interceed for them and ask that the Lord would not hold it against them? Can you free your heart from bitterness and un-fogiveness? Can you let go and leave it to God and believe that God is your defense? There is so much freedom in letting go and not defending yourself, but instead praying for and interceding for those who are attacking you and criticizing you.
Compare the second paragraph above to Pastor Saeed’s exhortation to Naghmeh two years ago:
Surely you have someone in your family, city, work or environment that have become like poisonous snake who have bitten you and tried to make you poisonous. So, forgive them and use the antidote of love and be Victorious!
As I understand it, there is strong tendency for families of hostages to place themselves in the shoes of the hostage, to feel that they personally are the hostage. This makes sense, and I can’t imagine the pain that Naghmeh and the rest of Pastor Saeed’s family have endured. However, this marked a turning point, and shortly after the article came out Naghmeh sent out the email message accusing Saeed of abusing her from prison and announcing that she would take time off from advocating for him.
She has followed through on this announcement, and following her Oct 24th tweet of the Christian Today article comparing her with Saeed she has been almost entirely silent on Twitter. As I write this (January 5th) the Oct 24 tweet is only the third newest tweet in her twitter feed:
The change progresses.
She has in the meantime written two additional Facebook posts which turned into news stories*. On Dec 7th she wrote a post explaining that her new form of advocacy for Saeed would take the form of praying for him (emphasis mine):
The truth is that I still love my husband more than ever and my advocacy for him has taken a new form of interceding on my knees. The truth is I can not deny Saeed’s love and passion for Jesus and that he continues to suffer in the Iranian prison because of his genuine love for Jesus and his refusal to deny Him. I can not deny the amazing dad he has been to our kids and the spiritual truths he poured into their life until the moment he was arrested. But at the same time I can not deny the very dark parts of our marriage and serious issues Saeed continues to struggle with.
She urged followers to pray for Saeed, including a prayer that God will use his persecution to free him of his wife abusing ways:
So I open myself up once again and become real and raw in asking you to join me in praying for Saeed. This time not only for his physical chains, but the spiritual chains that have bound him for so many years. Those chains that have stuck to him from the culture he was raised in (Middle East) and from his former religion (Islam). I believe that God will use Saeed’s imprisonment to break Saeed of these chains and to refine him and use him as a vessel for the work that He has prepared for him.
Saeed was at least still a topic of discussion on Dec 7th, even if much of this revolved around her accusations that he is abusing her from inside an Iranian prison. But the overall focus was very much about Naghmeh and her suffering. She was especially bitter that religious leaders didn’t come to her aid when she was criticized for making bizarre accusations against her husband (emphasis mine):
I had to turn off every voice including my own and only care about what Jesus was saying to me. It was hard. With the news that came out recently (an email I had sent to prayer partners was leaked to media), stones were being thrown at me left and right and many religious leaders who saw me wounded and bleeding passed on by afraid to touch me or this whole mess/situation. It was hard, but Jesus kept telling me to be silent and to look to Him.
It isn’t clear which religious leaders she is upset with for not coming to her aid (Franklin Graham?), nor who was criticizing her. Aside from myself, I’m not aware of anyone challenging what she has done outside of discussion comboxes here, on news stories, and on Facebook. At any rate, there is clearly also a shift to her new focus which will be sharing the important things she personally has to teach her followers as God reveals Himself to her. She closed the Dec 7 post with:
I am not sure how often I will be providing updates, but I will share as the Lord leads. Starting January 5, I am going to start another 21 days of prayer and fasting. It will be a time of drawing closer to the Lord and sharing what He lays on my heart. I hope they will be a source of blessing and encouragement to you as well.
I praise God for all of the ups and downs, excitements and disappointments, and for the many pains and tears. They have been good for me. They are a great tool to refine us and keep our eyes on Jesus.
With much Love in Jesus
Naghmeh Abedini
Saeed erased, now the focus is entirely on Naghmeh.
Today she followed up with another Facebook post, and in this one the transformation that she began in late October is complete. There is no reference whatsoever to Saeed or his suffering. The focus is on the persecution Naghmeh has suffered for her faith, and the lessons she has to preach as God reveals Himself to her:
Tomorrow I will be starting a three week fast. The focus of the fast is to spend more time in the presence of the Lord and to draw closer to the heart of God. I will be sharing scripture and what the Lord lays on my heart for each day.
…
When I became a follower of Jesus at the age of 9 I had to let go of all I had been taught as a Muslim despite the cost and the rejection and persecution that came from my own family.
As I wrote in my very first post on the topic, there is enormous cruelty in the Christian media encouraging Naghmeh in the way that it is. From reading Pastor Saeed’s moving letter I have no question that he will forgive her for radically changing the way he is seen back home when he was without a voice, when he trusted her to act as his voice. If Pastor Saeed can forgive his tormentors, I can surely forgive them too. But I do pray that the media and Christian leaders will stop feeding the temptation she is feeling, and I pray that she will repent of the dark path she is on. At the same time I pray for Pastor Saeed to be released from prison, and for restoration in his marriage and family.
*For news stories on her Dec 7th Facebook post see the Gospel Herald, the Baptist Press, Charisma News, the Christian Post, and Christian Today. So far I only see one news story regarding her Facebook post today on the Christian Post. However, other online papers are very likely to follow the Post’s lead here.
There’s another man involved.
I’m not sure if there is another man or not. No info there. At the same time, I think Dalrock’s post makes it clear that she is using her imprisoned husband as a stepping stone towards her self-advancement. Or would it be “used” now? I suppose at this point she is probably already done with him.
This is the detaching phase. I’ve seen it before. She’s smoking hot It isn’t like she’s going to have to look too far. There’s another dude.
It is bad enough what Nagmeh has done, but what is equally galling is the “Christian” media who has picked up her claims and waved them for all the world to see. These writers (I’ve looked them up) live in comfortable places such as Nashville, TN; living lives of comfortable ease, claiming to be servants of Christ while never once placing themselves in harm’s way…. and cannot wait for the first opportunity to make a few quick bucks off of backstabbing a martyr who cannot possibly defend himself, and who likewise cannot possibly be guilty of the charges against him. These mean are following the “teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling-block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication.”
The literally teach modern Christians to throw themselves into fornication via divorce court, all to make a quick dollar, just as Balaam tempted Israel with fornication so that he could receive Balak’s gold. Since they teach as Balaam, they have earned for themselves Balaam’s reward.
Also, if this is not proof that the woman is the weaker vessel I do not know what it would take. How much weaker is Nagmeh than her husband? How much greater is his faithfulness; how much greater is his suffering…. yet Nagmeh wants everyone to forget him and focus on her. A weaker vessel in every way.
There could be another guy, or she could be leaning that way. I don’t think she’s smoking hot, but she isn’t unattractive, and if she wanted another man she could find one.
My first thought was also that there is another man. Either that or some extreme solipsism. Or maybe I should be charitable and call it stress management by pretending that her husband isn’t still languishing in prison.
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How heartbreaking it is to think that the one human being whose duty it is give Saeed hope, and who was doing just that for the longest time, will now probably be the one to test his faith to the breaking point. If I were in his shoes, I would find it easier by orders of magnitude to forgive the sadistic Iranian infidel turnkeys and torturers than to forgive the wife, the supposed “sister in Christ,” who betrayed and abandoned me.
If Saeed can even continue to maintain his faith at all in the face of this complete abandonment and betrayal by his so-called “brothers in Christ,” to say nothing of being able to forgive his faithless wife, then he has truly earned a mansion in heaven. It seems that he has no one but Jesus in his corner right now in his hour of need. May the Lord truly protect and have mercy upon him.
Further to my last post, here is a stomach-turning example of the lethal fruits of faux Christianity:
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2015/12/rwanda-and-evils-of-politicized.html?m=1
Specifially:
Finding no refuge among their fellow Christians, many Tutsis who survived the onslaught were protected by people belonging to Rwanda’s most despised minority – Muslims.
Jean-Pierre Sagahutu, a Tutsi who saw his father and nine members of his family butchered by fellow Christians, was offered refuge by a Hutu Muslim family.
“I know people in America think Muslims are terrorists, but for Rwandans they were our freedom fighters during the genocide,” Sagahutu told a Washington Post reporter in 2002. “If it weren’t for the Muslims, my whole family would be dead,” insists Aisha Umwimbabazi, who – like Sagahutu – converted to that religion not only because of post-genocide disillusionment with the church in which they were raised but because there were no ethnic divisions among Rwandan Muslims.
Thanks for collating and publishing all this, Mr. D.. This is one of your most important articles here.
I try to be compassionate to the woman who feels alone here, as well as her husband who is languishing in prison. Both of them are under an insane amount of stress. I hope that she finds her bearings and stops this nonsense soon. Either way, I’ve never been tested the way they have, and I’m glad.
This compassion ought not extend to the drama queens (and kings) who are surely egging her on, giving her favorable press, and (in the most cowardly fashion) libeling her imprisoned husband while he is unable to react, or even respond. It’s shocking and depressing to see the vultures descend on this man’s figurative corpse, merely to churn up a few extra bucks in ad revenue.
This is the way women act when they hop on new cawk. AWALT brothers. We may never find out publicly because he will forgive her and still be waiting- dick in hand- when she hops off the CC and the media will never tell us.
I practically grew up in the church. Over the years, I have come to understand “church speak”.
When Nagmeh said she was going to pray and fast for 3 weeks, what she really meant to say was that she had already made up her mind about what she wanted to do, but she would need a very convincing way to put it to the “body of Christ” (read backslidden heretics in today’s ministry).
Did anyone notice all her talk about “the Lord”, “as the Lord leads”, etc? These are all efforts to bury her upcoming ungodly decison deeply in religion, and shift every responsibility on this god who will “speak” to her during and after her lengthy fast.
My prediction: after her three week fast, Nagmeh will soon announce how the Lord has told her she must separate from Saeed, and be alone. We won’t hear from her for a while.
Shortly after, she will then be “led” to another “brother who has been very supportive, and has stood with” her all along. This brother will likely be a preacher, wealthy and an American. He may even be divorced. Little details will be revealed, because “the Lord tells her to be silent and not to respond to critics who do not understand God’s dealings in her life”.
By the way, the three week fast is not meant to convince God to change His mind, but to silence her conscience, and giver time to put together her arsenal against everything she used to believe.
With her initial charge against the church leaders (“many religious leaders who saw me wounded and bleeding passed on by afraid to touch me or this whole mess/situation”), the tendency from these leaders would be either to stay silent, or to offer her support, as she divorces her suffering husband and picks up another man. Unfortunately, the criticism against her from unexpected quarters (e.g. Dalrock and his minions) will be almost unbearable for her, but will not be enough to stop her. She will marry the next dude, but they will not last. Eventually, she will live the rest of her life alone and in shame.
While I recognize that Saeed definitely needs our prayers, I am convinced that Nagmeh needs them more, because she is about to embark on a journey that may damn her soul, and the souls of many more.
I pray that my prediction is wrong (note: this is not some revelation that I got from God, so don’t come after me if things don’t turn out exactly as predicted).
Looks like we have ourselves a little Winnie Mandela here.
To work into Dave’s point a bit, almost no modern Christians fast. I know of very, very few that ever have, let alone do it regularly. So when it crops up, it’s almost always just Virtue Signaling.
Outstanding Looking Glass Knowing your women
Dont forget a 3 week fast will drop a dress size or two, just to bump up her value for the menz in her circle. I would think she is recieving some form of “comforting” already. I would hazard a guess she has already chosen what to do. If she hasnt divorced\remarried by the end of the year I will be surprised.
“And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.”
Matthew 6:16
I thought the tone of her Facebook update “I will be starting a three week fast” was very much “look at how holy I am everyone!”.
I thought the tone of her Facebook update “I will be starting a three week fast” was very much “look at how holy I am everyone!”.
Yep.
“No, I’m not being a self-centered drama queen who’s scheming to dump her husband. Honest! And just to prove it to all you skeptics, I’m gonna flagellate myself with a three-week fast. See? Look at me deny myself! How can you possibly think I’m being selfish?! Oh, and HOW DARE YOU JUDGE ME!”
@Minesweeper:
I meant to mention that I’ve seen a trend for equating “Fasting” with “Juice Cleansing”. They’re not the same, but if it’s more than one or two random times I’ve seen it come up, it also explains part of the “Fasting for 3 weeks”. It’s a terrible way to lose weight, by the way, as it’s wreck your muscles, but it will drop off fat in the process. (And mess up plenty of other things in the process too.)
Also, while I don’t want to rag on the Pastor any, I can’t help but point out that what he’s doing is not Forgiveness. “Not holding responsible” and “Forgiving” are significantly different concepts. This is a very old error in Christian thought that easily pops up (I know of examples at least back to the 8th Century), but you cannot Forgive (as the Lord means) someone that does not come in Repentance.
What you can do is not hold the torturers responsible for their actions since they were Orders from above. You can also “release” yourself of Vengeance and turn it all over to the Lord’s Hands.
We want to ram these concepts together to make us feel better, but they are not the same and it’s a grave disservice to oneself when you do this. You also put yourself in a situation to mock the Lord, which is something that cannot be done. The Lord is pretty exceptionally clear on this point: “Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.” (Galatians 6:7 ESV)
…you cannot Forgive (as the Lord means) someone that does not come in Repentance.
Absolutely. One of the few things God Himself cannot do: forgive the unrepentant sinner.
He can make it easy for the sinner to repent, or persuade the sinner to turn from sin, even to the point of sending His Holy Spirit to strive with the sinner to consider the error of their ways. But should the sinner close his eyes in death, she is eternally lost.
“Do you still hold fast your dignity? Curse God and die!”
Something I’ve learned to be cautious of is women who are really.. kind of floating off the earth in a super spiritual headspace, receiving these amazing revelations directly from God left and right. And that’s how she’s coming off.
I’ve actually been there and done that. Felt like God was speaking to me SO clearly, and maybe He was, but then it’s a quick leap to pride and you can’t separate out your own female emotions and hamstering and suddenly the “messages” get confused.
It’s really hard to read this situation. At the very least, it seems that she is in a very intense “super spiritual” head space that hopefully everyone knows well enough to take with a grain of salt. Did God “show her” that she was being abused? Does she have the mental maturity to sort out her own voice from the Spirit’s? I don’t know, but it’s dangerous territory.
The empathy flying off her advocacy for her husband was powerful jujube initially. Americans have short attention spans and prefer to toss up a pile of flowers and photos, light some candles, be seen weeping on camera about disasters befalling strangers, then nexting the whole scenario.
Id postulate that her motive was driven by virtue initially. As the responses and outpouring reached the half life of elemental empathium and neared depletion something was needed to replace the rising amount of sham-poo with the more efficacious real-poo again.
That’s where we are now. There are few more powerful empathy sources than her scenario. Imprisoned husband with celebrities and religious leaders publicly chiming in, then revelation that husband is an (gasp) abuser, brings in a new set of advocates, these new advocates are also a source for what Dalrock has called The Whispers, and before you know it a tried and true source of a well titrated IV drip of empathy that can sustain the cravings for years.
The fasting and direct hot line to the Personal Jesus can bolster the end game which is to even create a source of empathy from the introduction of a new man into the equation and moving the object of empathy to the kids because as she will convey…”after all Saeed is a good man and he is their father and we need him to be freed for their sake”
The multiple empathogasms will be so strong that there will be a movement to change the logarithmic base for the Richter scale.
What happened is obvious.
Naghmeh cheated on him and/or doesn’t want to be married to him anymore. Her chosen path out not only absolves her of guilt, it lauds her in today’s twisted society.
Incentives matter. A lot.
@Empath
Word to this!
It would be difficult to trace exactly when, but her solipsism and pragmatism launched her ruse in motion a while back.
She projected the very worse of circumstances for her husband and had to start her plan of action of distraction and redirection.
This woman is not throwing him in front of the bus, she’s pushing him over the ledge in front of an oncoming subway train, but telling us he slipped off the platform.
“There is enormous cruelty in the Christian media encouraging Naghmeh in the way that it is.”
I see them as the worst party to this whole affair, even worse than the Iranian authorities who locked up the pastor. Naghmeh’s actions aside, they are under no pressure or stress from this situation. They are not personally affected or involved, nothing that would cause them to see this through a tainted lens due to emotional trauma. They should know better.
This is how it’s going to be with husbands in America. They’ll be accused of abuse under similar circumstances according to the latest absurd definition the feminists peddle, and unless something turns around fast the church and Christian media will sacrifice them to Baal, too.
“Aside from myself, I’m not aware of anyone challenging what she has done outside of discussion comboxes here, on news stories, and on Facebook.”
That’s the most galling part of all these modern troubles. It isn’t that so many authorities are doing wrong, it’s that nowhere are there authorities doing right.
…
LeeLee @ 8:40 am:
“I’ve actually been there and done that. Felt like God was speaking to me SO clearly, and maybe He was, but then it’s a quick leap to pride and you can’t separate out your own female emotions and hamstering and suddenly the “messages” get confused.”
I’ve wondered if that’s the case with women who find themselves in the limelight and high society. Empath is right that Nagmeh is in a position tailor-made to undermine her fidelity to a very distant husband who is guaranteed to come back “used”, at best.
Therefore, I like the idea of her taking a break from advocacy… but only if it’s to get away from being a conduit for attention. I wonder if the Catholics would let her check into a convent for a few years so she can focus on Christ despite her handicap of no male guidance? There’s a lot I don’t like about the RCC but we Protestants could do with a few monasteries & convents.
“It’s really hard to read this situation.”
No, I suspect another man too. Occam’s Razor.
…
Looking Glass @ 7:37 am:
“Also, while I don’t want to rag on the Pastor any, I can’t help but point out that what he’s doing is not Forgiveness. “Not holding responsible” and “Forgiving” are significantly different concepts.”
+1. No offense to Saeed, of course; sloppy theology is okay when you’re taking blows to the head for Christ.
Dear Moses:
That’s not obvious at all, and by posting this, you’re indulging in the same shit behavior that the religious press is forwarding, when they accuse this man of abuse. If she’s banging someone, that is between her and her husband, as we don’t have any details of it.
Her motivations really don’t matter anyway. She needs to be encouraged to stop doing this. It’s disgraceful and harmful — most of all to herself and her children. (Her husband isn’t in a position to read blogs and he has bigger things to deal with anyway).
The best way to accomplish such encouragement is to deal with all the vultures surrounding her, who are encouraging her narcissistic impulses with sympathy, attention and infamy. The scumstirrer Ed Cyzewski, for example, has been profiled here. He gets a few extra bucks every time you open his blog and read his denouncements of Pastor Saeed, so I don’t recommend it. He’s on twitter. The poor dear blocked me after I realtalked him and hurt his feelz.
There are others on twitter. If you really want to be effective, start an account and (be civil) ask these clickbait whores why they are libeling a man who can’t speak in his own defense. Without these grifters, Nagameh wouldn’t have nearly the incentive to trash talk her husband or otherwise embarrass herself. It’s certainly a weak and cowardly man who would make money off the imprisoned body of his “brother in the religion” and we should be pointing that out at every opportunity.
Boxer
Excellent comment, especially the above quote. Unfortunately, at least in English, I don’t think there is a single word for the concept of “not holding responsible”.
Right on!
Nor are Christians to forgive the unrepentant sinner. “Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” [Luke 17:3 NASB]
I wonder what would happen to the Church if the above was correctly taught. Good things, I believe.
Actually Boxer, while it may end up being shown untrue, the interpretation of recent events and her behaviors as indicative of how a woman obfuscates and dissembles in route to an objective like jettisoning a husband and/or adding a new man is in a sense empirically a valid thought exercise. Its a plain “odds are” conclusion.
Verses jumping on a bandwagon that says Saeed abused the wife….from prison of all things, this is NOT empirically demonstrably supportable based on observing repeated behaviors and outcomes.
I use the word empirical loosely, not meaning probability can be calculated as such. More along the lines of if it walks like a duck. Imagine that expression applied to her present emoting and then applied to her husbands present and recent circumstances and what little behavior we can even discern of him. I daresay there is no duck to walk like in terms of Saeed.
Yes, it is speculation that she wishes to divorce him, or that she has another man, or that she may want to one day do those things. But it is decidedly NOT equivalent to whats been said in speculation about Saeed. In fact whats been said about Saeed is data for the calculation of the odds that she wants to jettison him, while whats being speculated about her is clearly not “data” relevant to the odds that Saeed is an abuser.
Oh, and…it matters because it fits the template, and we spend lots of time here sharing the template, refining the template, defending the accuracy of the template, and deploying cautionary advice because of the template.
Whether Saeed is ever welcomed back by her, he is tarnished beyond what any solvent can clean away. She will have a supplicating husband who evermore works at working his way back into the fold while Christians look askance at him, or she will be rid of him and he will still be viewed as the
redeemedabuserDear Empath:
It’s not manly to gossip about another man’s wife and what she may or may not be doing. I don’t give a damn about any married woman as that’s her husband’s job.
I get what you’re saying, in that it might be an interesting abstraction, but I would think anyone who has read Dalrock for any length of time would be well past seeing this as some sort of novelty. We all tend to know how women work and what they do.
She’s also been under a tremendous amount of stress. I find it entirely possible that she’s just gone a bit nuts and is indulging in some weird escapism. Either way it’s beside the point. The people who are enabling and encouraging her need to be talked to, and the internet gives us the opportunity to talk back to them. Please join me in doing so.
Boxer
It could just be that she’s realizing she’s not strong enough to endure this, and so the solipsism has begun. Wrapped up in piety, of course, as a defense mechanism.
She doesn’t necessarily need to be cheating, although she could be. Plenty of women flake out on their husbands while they’re deployed or even if they travel constantly for work. From what I’ve seen, an affair is more often a symptom, not the cause.
You what makes Nagmeh’s situation so pitiful? She doesn’t have someone in her life who loves her enough to tell her to shutup.
I find it astounding how quickly and smoothly this woman took this horrible event that happened to her husband and instead turned it around and has now made it all about HERSELF.
Reminds me of Hillary Clinton when she said that the real victims of war are not the men who are DEAD on the battlefield, but the womenfolk living back home. “Me me me me!!!”
@Boxer
That’s not obvious at all, and by posting this, you’re indulging in the same shit behavior that the religious press is forwarding, when they accuse this man of abuse. If she’s banging someone, that is between her and her husband, as we don’t have any details of it.
While I can agree with the statement Moses made, that she’s either banging someone else, preparing to bang someone else or simply doesn’t want to be married any longer, I can also agree with your assessment that by making such an accusation he’s engaged in the same thing the religious press is doing: making unfounded accusations not based in fact. The rule is to let every fact be established by the testimony of two or more witnesses.
However, what I cannot agree with is your assessment that this is “between her and her husband because we don’t have any details of it” because not only is publicly attacking her marriage a crime against the community and nation, but the context of him being in prison in a Muslim country for preaching the Gospel makes it all the more egregious. This is NOT a case in which it’s a private matter between husband and wife. In making that claim you are yourself making the same fallacious argument that the “gay” movement makes, that private, consensual sodomy is not a public offense. In doing so you are taking a position that does not agree with God’s position on this.
To take that line of reasoning, how is rape a public offense if it wasn’t witnessed? Isn’t that a private matter between the man and woman? What about theft? Or abortion? I think the record is very clear that something has happened with Naghmeh, as evidenced by the complete change in her narrative. What that is we don’t know, but her actions speak loudly along with the public dishonor and contempt she has heaped upon her husband.
Dalrock has been very reticent to make any accusation of unfaithfulness or a desire for unfaithfulness on her part, instead pointing out that there are psychological motivations (a reverse Stockholm syndrome) for her actions. That may be, but we also have a vast repository of evidence that demonstrates we shouldn’t listen to what women say but rather watch what they do. As others have pointed out, she is signalling the end of her marriage and branch swinging monkeys almost never let go of the current branch before having a good grip on the next.
No novelty whatsoever. However, I confess to there being a sense of novelty to these behaviors for me because of chagrin despite my awareness of them.
Weird escapism shouldn’t involve besmirching her husband.
Incidentally Boxer, have you taken on some shares of Twitter recently?
Something of a tangent, but….
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/05/cologne-mayor-women-careful-migrant-mass-rapes-promises-guidance-can-prepare/
..when REAL sexual assault is committed by Muslims, its magically all the womens’ fault.
Never was the self-loathing of the West clearer.
“Not holding responsible” and “Forgiving” are significantly different concepts.”
Actually, they are one and the same. When you forgive someone, you absolve them of the responsibility for their offending actions. It is akin to a bankruptcy in a way. You discharge their old debts, and give them an opportunity to begin again. As long as you hold them to their responsibility (which they failed to uphold in the first place), you are demanding justice, not forgiving them.
The price of forgiveness is always paid by the forgiving party. The motivation to “pay” this price by the forgiver is either based on the offender’s repentance, or (for the Christian) the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
1. Forgiveness means not to seek justice (or to absolve the offender of responsibility):
…He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psalm 103:10
2. Forgiveness through confession and repentance of the offender:
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Proverbs 28:13
3. Forgiveness could be for the sake of Christ:
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you Ephesians 4:32
Straw-man.
You and the other gossips here have no evidence of her banging some lothario. You’re just fantasizing and indulging in gossip. It’s very unmanly to gossip, and you should stop doing it.
Especially inappropriate to speculate about your Christian bro’s wife this way. Call her to account for the shit you have evidence for, and let her husband deal with matters that are only evident in his house. How he deals with her is for him to decide, once he’s free.
Boxer
On that we don’t disagree. You should call her to account for this — but you shouldn’t make up shit that we don’t have evidence she’s done.
I think twitter is a very fun way to get the feminists all stirred up, and in the process I can publicize some countercultural thoughts that appear in places like this.
I don’t know if it has any real effect on traffic to this site when I post links, but I’m happy if one extra dude who is stuck in a bad marriage can get to a place where he can figure out what’s actually going on.
Try it out. You might enjoy the trolling life.
Boxer
Actually Boxer yours is the straw man, and I admit up front to getting deeply into pedantic territory with this mini-discourse.
My comments and at least some of the others are merely stating what is suggested by what we can see, not stating that she is doing anything at this time or any time in the past.
I genuinely do not believe that even if she were to end up divorcing him, or with a man, or whatever, I do not believe it would have been a volitional scheme on her part as it isn’t with most women. It is a high functioning instinctive type thing that can be denied genuinely if need be. Its as if the woman thinks (and who doesn’t ever think something askew on some occasion) it would be nice to be out of this mess and have a better man and not have to be a Jezebel to get there, and this subroutine kicks in to start laying the ground work.
Maybe she isn’t banging a lothario. Maybe her husband’s abuse of her from the prison is that of the husband who temped his wife with Lothario. Hmmmm.
@Boxer
Reading comprehension. I said “publicly attacking her marriage” and there is a mountain of evidence that she’s done just that. I was actually *agreeing* with you WRT accusing her of cheating and that it was no different from what the media is doing in supporting her unfounded accusations.
However, calling this woman out for publicly attacking her husband while he’s in a foreign prison and likewise attacking her marriage after she did so in an incredibly public manner is not fantasizing or gossiping, it’s commentary on what she did in public. Nice attempt at male shaming though.
You calling it a strawman is actually a deflection on your part because I was pointing out your error in claiming what she did so publicly to her husband is a private matter between her and her husband. You didn’t address that because while it might have been a private matter if she’d kept if private, she chose to make her accusations to the public and her husband is not in a position to respond. Even worse, by publicly betraying him she gave his jailors a powerful tool to break him.
Whether she’s committed adultery, wants to commit adultery, wants out of her marriage or is just over-stressed and can’t continue, none of that is relevant. There is no excuse for what she has done to her husband and even if her accusations were true (which beggars belief) her instruction that she’s violated is to “Submit to your husband even if he is disobedient to the Word, that he might be won over without a word by your quiet and chaste conduct.” 1st Peter 3:1-2a
“Especially inappropriate to speculate about your Christian bro’s wife this way. Call her to account for the shit you have evidence for, and let her husband deal with matters that are only evident in his house. How he deals with her is for him to decide, once he’s free.”
^^ Wise words these are.
Especially inappropriate to speculate about your Christian bro’s wife this way.
Refresh my memory, Boxer – you’re from a Mormon background but not Christian?
I find it odd why you want to police speculation on the causes of a celebrity Christian woman’s inappropriate behavior. If the speculation is inappropriate, it’s caused by her inappropriate actions.
SirHamster:
I don’t explain myself to strangers on the internet.
Best,
Boxer
Using the bankruptcy analogy, I think there is a third possibility. You do not demand payment, nor do you discharge the debt, but you simply ignore it. That is what I would call “not holding responsible”. Of course, legally, I expect it would be possible to demand payment at a later time. But if you never do, then you did let it go.
Thus, I continue to posit that “not holding responsible” and “forgiving” are significantly different concepts. Admittedly, I do not think it is easy to release the desire for justice, but I think it is the position that God desires Christians to hold, although He would always prefer that repentance and forgiveness occur.
Another common belief about forgiveness is that Christians must unconditionally forgive others because we are forgiven by God. This is not true, for Jesus himself said “Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” [Luke 17:3 NASB]. Note that we are commanded to forgive our brother if he repents (which is a condition for forgiveness).
“Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” [Luke 17:3 NASB]. Note that we are commanded to forgive our brother if he repents (which is a condition for forgiveness).
Note that jesus was referring to a fellow Christian brother, not an unbeliever. The implication is that a fellow believer who knows he has caused an offence, and who has been rebuked for his offence, is likely to be convicted for that offence. Moreover, he must be aware of what Christ said about an offending brother who wants to pray:
Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. Matthew 5:23-24
What do you do about an offending unbeliever who does not repent? Do you hold them to ransome until they do? Well, I think another set of rules apply to them: you forgive in spite of their lack of repentance, for the sake of Christ.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Matthew 5:43-47
And the offending Christian brother who has been rebuked for his offence but fails to repent? We are to treat them as unbelievers and forgive them the same way. In other words, we really have no choice other than to forgive those who offend us.
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Matthew 18:15-17
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First, I will repeat that I believe there are 3 options, not 2, when someone sins against you. They are:
1. “Forgive” them (regardless of their subsequent behavior)
2. Do not “forgive” them, but instead “hold them to ransom” and likely experience negative emotional or physical distress.
3. Turn it over to God. That is, release the hurt and let God heal you as needed. Allow God to deal with the offender as He chooses. When you do this, you will be able to love the offender through God’s power, regardless of whether they are Christian or not.
It seems almost everyone thinks the only options are to “forgive” or refuse to “forgive”. If they do not repent to you, then I believe the third option is the best and correct response.
I agree there should be a difference in response to a Christian as opposed to a non-Christian. Rebuking a brother is appropriate because God desires repentance and reconciliation within the church. However, rebuking a non-Christian is a different story. They probably don’t desire reconciliation, and they almost certainly would not accept rebuke.
If you notice, Matthew 5:43-47 does not say to forgive them. I don’t think the Bible ever says to forgive unconditionally (if it does, please let me know where.). Many people interpret it to say we must forgive without repentance. For example, we must forgive or we won’t be forgiven by God is based on Matthew 6:15 (“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.” [NASB] )
This is an occasion where knowledge of the culture of Jesus’ day is likely to be helpful. I have studied forgiveness fairly extensively (I needed it after my divorce). It seems that the Jews had a well-developed process for forgiveness, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard about it in a sermon. In short, forgiveness to the Jews consisted of multiple statements of repentance (3, I think) before the offended party was required to forgive them. In short, forgiveness was always conditional. So there was no need to specifically state this requirement when speaking about forgiveness.. It was an understood part of their culture. Jesus knew this and he spoke accordingly.
Lastly, I will say that releasing the hurt and the sinner to God does not mean that you are allowed to be vengeful toward them. As Matthew 5:43-57 states, we are to be loving to them, not hateful.
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