By way of Pastor Tim Bayly in Redeemer’s effeminate worship… is the following fruity dance at Pastor Tim Keller’s church (click on the blue button to watch it at Vimeo):
Lest you think that Pastor Bayly and I are exaggerating, be sure to let it play long enough to get to the part where one of the men caries the other man as he would a ballerina.
Something seriously wrong there.
From the article:
There’s been video of some fruity displays at a few Catholic church Masses from time to time. My first thought is the priest is a homo.
Then there are priests like Fr. James Martin, SJ
who are becoming more open about supporting gay marriage.
Bayly is never going to get through to Keller until he lays hold of Keller’s wedding china.
I said this on the last thread:
Every time I think I’ve seen it all when it comes to Christians running down men, along comes another example.
If it weren’t so tragic it’d be funny.
You, sir, have outdone yourself twice in one day. You broke the record in the morning, and then broke your own hours old record that same afternoon.
I just… I… I don’t know what to say.
I regularly hear preachers say how many men love to hear submission preached and then use that as a club, but I have never heard such preaching. I only hear complaints about it.
Dalrock,
It would be good to know the time of the carrying. I skimmed through, but only saw them dancing like a pair. I can’t stomach watching enough to see the carrying.
[D: Try 2:40 and 3:45]
Ha, they’ve already blocked it. SO manly.
Why are they NOT wearing tutus?
@thedeti
Are you saying you can’t even? I know what you mean. I’m literally shaking.
To top it off they’re dressed up in semen suits.
So gay.
Thanks Deti!
@Cane
Hilarious! Well played.
Lost Patrol
Wow. Just… wow. I can’t even…. Literally shaking right now….
In reference to my above comment, it brings a new understanding to the expression, “Come dancing “
I haven’t heard it either outside of when Dalrock finds gems like the previous post. But I wouldn’t doubt some men love to hear preachings about submission (to their wives I assume)…there’s a lot of them out there.
“I am against My shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand and cause them to cease feeding My flock …for I will deliver My flock from their mouth” Ez 34:10.
The church as we have known it for 5 centuries is done. Its goose is cooked. It is no coincidence that the 500th anniversary of the Reformation is next month. God’s church is being returned to individual men that will immerse themselves in His word, who will not cease from hunger pains, and cotton mouth for it. And will REALLY sharpen each other as doers. That is the way, the only what …for it is the Being of Jesus, the Christ ….the Word become flesh and dwelling among us.
Bonus thought: The ONLY way Satan attacks God is by using women to attack men, God’s rep her on earth.
@sipcode
I don’t agree with this statement. Satan is tearing down every image of God: Judges, rulers, husbands, fathers, truth. Even the lion has been downgraded and people are all about hyenas these days. It’s pretty consistent across the board.
That’s not the only way Satan attacks God…in fact the first was the flat out rebellion against God where Jesus said He saw Lucifer fall from Heaven. Lucifer didn’t use women in that scenerio.
That Bayly guy is like Dalrock but exclusively focused on Keller. I did a search on “Reedemer” on that site and there are 35 pages of results! The first page at least is entirely devoted to takedowns.
I just don’t understand why Redeemer would include that in their service. What’s the point? How does it build up?
@Cane & Dalrock:
That needs to go in the post itself. I’m still laughing out loud about it. 2 minutes later.
@sipcode:
Every 500 years or so, there’s a big, big shakeup in the Church. Looks like we get to run with the next phase.
Well, at least we have identified ONE good pastor….. How long did that take?
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Well..it’s gone. maybe a blessing in disguise
I think the worst mistake past generations have made is allowing those effeminate soy bois take leadership positions in the church.
Sure the church was feminized. But seriously by the lack of attention paid this is what enabled those faggots to take over:
http://podles.org/files/Church-Impotent/ChurchImpotent_Chapter1.pdf
They were the feminists who were themselves called ”the advocate of women’s rights” back in the day
@infowarrior1:
They most took leadership in the 1800s and we’re actually on the backswing from the disaster of the 1920s.
The whole ballet industry is rife with homosexuality. Even some stories are exactly about the abuse a particular artist suffered at the hands of his gay mentor. Art, certainly. But should it be a form of worship, in the light of this background? Probably not.
Christian men need Game, because Feminism is in the Church.
Cane Caldo wins the Internet today!
Man I must be really out touch with evangelical circles.
I don’t understand what I’m watching here.
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@earlthomas786
That’s not the only way Satan attacks God…in fact the first was the flat out rebellion against God where Jesus said He saw Lucifer fall from Heaven. Lucifer didn’t use women in that scenerio.
What if the devil is a woman? It worked in Bedazzled . . .
Another “courageous” breakthrough. The latest Hollywood buzz is that a trans “woman” might finally get a Best Actress nomination: https://apnews.com/8cd4d5b9085d435b84dca426c6792439/'A-Fantastic-Woman'-could-lead-to-trans-history-at-Oscars
A transgender Chilean actress has turned in one of the most buzzed-about performances of the year and some are hoping she could be the first trans actor to land an Oscar nomination.
Daniela Vega, 28, stars in Sebastian Lelio’s “A Fantastic Woman.” She plays Marina, a transgender woman whose partner (Francisco Reyes) dies, after which Marina is subjected to harsh treatment by the family of her deceased lover and by police investing the death.
Chile has selected the film as its Academy Awards submission this year. But the bigger spotlight may be on whether Vega’s breakout performance — one of stirring strength and compassion — could make Oscar history. Reviewing the movie at its Berlin Film Festival premiere, Variety called her performance “a multi-layered, emotionally polymorphous feat of acting,” that deserves “so much more than political praise.”
While several transgender musicians have been Oscar-nominated, no trans performer has ever earned an acting nod.
Pastor Tim Bayly just recently published a book on how the Church (especially conservative Evangelical and Reformed folks) have massively failed in dealing with the sexual revolution (particularly in regard to homosexuality).
The book is available for free as a PDF. I just finished reading it, and found it extremely helpful.
The title is “The grace of shame – 7 ways the Church has failed to love homosexuals”. It is available from Warhorn media. He says we failed to love, when we failed to shame shameful behavior, and failed to call sinners to repentance.
He also teaches that effeminate men are in sin, and must repent if they want eternal life in Christ. He also talks about the fact that our churches are full of effeminate men.
Pastor Tim Bayly is a ” Conservative Reformed/Presbyterian” type guy who dares to seriously criticize guys like Tim Keller, Albert Mohler, Russell Moore, The Gospel Coalition, SBTS, Desiring God Ministries, etc.
He calls them out for wimping out on Biblical teaching regarding sex, marriage, etc.
I may not agree with him entirely, but I thank God for pastor Bayly.
Sipcode- I’m reading Ez w/ my family. I am frankly terrified of how much of it matches w/ current US culture.
I’ll add to your passage, Ez 22:24 “Son of man, say to her, ‘You are a land that is not cleansed or rained on in the day of indignation.’ 25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey. They have devoured lives; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in the midst of her. 26 Her priests have done violence to My law and have profaned My holy things;
@ Scott says:
September 14, 2017 at 8:21 pm
“Man I must be really out touch with evangelical circles.
I don’t understand what I’m watching here.”
Are Presbyterians considered Evangelical? Anyway, what you’re watching is a homoerotic representation of the Trinity.
No… really. Those three fairies are supposed to represent God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Let’s not forget here that ultimately the decision to allow this, like everything else in Tim Keller’s church and life, was made by his wife. Cut the guy some slack, you know how she gets.
Brothers, it’s hard out here. I read here and the problems you point out make sense. I want to do the right thing. Yet every voice and every pastor in modern Christianity (including ones I generally respect) says that things are just fine. Everything is set up so that a man who gets out of line is in for a severe beat-down and might lose it all. If he stands up for these things, will his wife respect and love him more, when every other voice says he might be spiritually abusive? Maybe. Maybe not.
Thanks, @Oscar. I take ballet and even I was confused. And the remaining confusion was cleared up by Embracing Reality.
Dalrock, as a frequent reader and infrequent commenter, (once a year ? Maybe ? ) I fail to see any advantage whatsoever in men joining any modern “Christian” denomination. Every single major Christian denomination is so poisoned by Modernity and liberalism that it seems to make more sense to resort to more ancient eras…..small groups of the like minded doing bible study and worship in each others homes. Starve these beasts of their income and you will quickly see them wither and disappear. Its the only answer.
@ James
The secret isn’t to worry about denomination, but congregation. Any “Church Flavor” is going to have a high percentage of terrible congregations, you want to find one with strong support for your personal relationship with God. In your area, that could be Catholic or Protestant, Evangelical or Barking Mad.
That said, the Boston Movement / ICOC churches have treated me pretty well. You can find a congregation near you here.
Dalrock, if you keep putting out such excellent content, I’m going to need to get a WP account just to keep track of it all. Then I’d have to write stuff in it.
Watching this obscenity, the scene from Braveheart where the king throws the fag out of the window immediately came to mind.
@Adam,
Heh, I was thinking the same thing as soon as the first person (won’t call him a man, or even a guy) took his first step.
I watched until 0:21, then spent the next ten minutes scrubbing my brain with bleach. God only knows what disinfection procedures would have been necessary if I had watched “the carrying” Dalrock described.
What video hell are you posting next, Dal? Two pastors doing each other’s hair and make-up?
Un-freaking-believable. Even the “Holy Roar” and “Laughing in the Spirit” movements made more sense than this. And that was some scary s**t…
Is there not a tradition of dancing for God: best exemplified in Le Jongleur de Notre Dame where with no other gift than to juggle a monk does just that before a statue of the Virgin Mary. These young men are surely acting in a consensual and responsibly health-conscious way which is now the litmus test of acceptable morality. It is true they do look very effeminate but then women are now applauded for being one of the boys so it is only fair that men should get to be and without opprobrium girly.
Here, Ballet is often referred to as Poofter’s Football: this is both unfair and ignorant – aren’t those Soccer Players always kissing each other? Great male dancers are anything but effeminate, but masculine and with a control of their movements which leaves one in awe. I once had for a client a male ballet dancer – married with a small child – and I do not think I have ever received a more vice like grip of a handshake – I am still recovering.
People understandably tend to equate the Ballet with Opera. In fact the Balletomanes hate the Opera Buffs who in turn are contemptuous of the Balletomanes. Those familiar with The Red Shoes (Powell and Pressburger 1949) may recall the plagiarised young composers initially dismissive remarks as to Ballet. 19th century Ballet composers were I am afraid more or less the equivalent of Twentieth Century Film Music composers. The exception is (for Ballet, I mean) Tchaikovsky without whose three full length Ballets all Ballet Companies would be forced to file for Bankruptcy.
Personally, when in church, I like a four-square Lutheran chorale; Glinka, not so much.
@Oscar
I ain’t got the words.
Adam says:
September 15, 2017 at 1:44 am
Here ya go:
Angels aren’t women.
One of the attractions of the PCA to me is the “regulative principle” – that we will do in worship only what is commanded in Scripture. This includes singing, preaching, prayer, baptism, the Lord’s supper, confession. No interpretive dance, no skits, etc. Keller’s church is part of the PCA.
It’s not clear to me that the video shown is part of a worship service, or whether it is some other program at Keller’s church. If it is part of worship, the church should be censured by its presbytery. But with Keller one of the celebrities, such a thing would be unlikely to happen.
Most likely this was some “arts” program outside of worship (despite the scripture annotation at the beginning). Keller’s church has tried hard to have an outreach into the NY arts scene, which is largely homosexual. I think, despite Opus’ comments above, that the particular moves in this performance are easily misunderstood in our culture. Doug Wilson called Keller out on this very video a few weeks ago.
But what really puzzles me is the reference to John 3:21-30 at the beginning. The passage is about John the Baptist bearing witness to Christ. The title of the Redeemer piece is “Life Together”, but it is totally opaque to me how that title relates to the scripture passage (it’s quite clear how it relates to the ballet).
And a question for the ballet lovers / aficionados in the crowd: is it usual in mainstream ballet for men to lift and handle men like this?
BTW, I notice that the comments are closed on this video. Probably too many “What fresh hell is this?” comments coming in.
Oscar and Embracing Reality have developed the plot line to make this into a Babylon Bee article.
That’s usually the reason why comments are closed.
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@ Cane Caldo says:
September 15, 2017 at 3:01 am
“I ain’t got the words.”
I believe “blasphemy” fits. Wait… did I just leave the distinguished Mr. Caldo speechless? That feels like an accomplishment!
@ Lost Patrol says:
September 15, 2017 at 6:48 am
“Oscar and Embracing Reality have developed the plot line to make this into a Babylon Bee article.”
It’s hard out there for a satirist.
Hmmm makes an interesting point as to whether the performance was part of a service or whether it was as he puts it part of an “arts” program. It has always surprised me somewhat the alacrity with which Pastors are happy for a fee to turn their churches – churches that have been consecrated as places of worship – over to the mammon-idolising arts community. Churches make excellent and ready built venues for lunchtime and other chamber music concerts. I can think of two (and there must be more) de-consecrated places of Worship in London which are now full time Concert Halls. Really, would you prefer to sit in one of the concrete boxes (the sound of the skate-boarders making it through the gap between the doors and the wall) on London’s South Bank or in one of the cities Wren-designed churches?
My theory as to why the American East Coast is so chock-a-block with Homosexually inclined or effeminate men is – in a word – Feminism.
I’d agree…the times you see a woman who is a card carrying feminist that does get married…it’s often to a man like that.
What do you do when you find out your own pastor is enamored with Tim Kellar. I don’t know of any local churches that would be better either.
@Opus
The description from Redeemer Video says “Dance Offertory”. I wasn’t familiar with the term Offertory, so I looked up the term. It can either refer to the offering (passing the hat), or communion. Based on the trays stacked prominently on the table in front of the stage, I would guess the latter. Either way, it would be part of a worship service.
@Splashman
Ha! Perhaps I should find something to cleanse the palate of the sickening fruity aftertaste.
@Dalrock
In one part of the video you can see (I thought) someone holding out a plate (for coins and notes). That is typical of a service but likewise also of a concert at a church. I would have said (had I been asked) that an offertory is part of a service of worship, though which part always confuses me.
The place looks to me more like a concert hall than a church but I think that perhaps that sort of thing is not uncommon in protestant America.
@Hmm, that appears to be a performance given during the offering. Redeemer generally has some type of musical performance of various genres during that period. This had a dance accompaniment.
@Dalrock
The offertory is the offering, and the offertory is part of communion.
In the old days, individuals in the church would bring forth bread and wine to be used to celebrate communion. Now gifts of money buy the bread and wine which are then offered to the people as Christ’s sacrifice for us, and which the people eat as their sacrifice to God. Often the money gifts are set with the bread and wine to show their connection.
I spent some time browsing through Tim Bayly’s archives about Redeemer. Some of his very earliest posts have some blue pill thinking embedded, but he quickly becomes radically based. This guy is very rare. See:
http://baylyblog.com/blog/2013/11/mondays-bill-bill-mounce-wont-allow-his-wife-call-him-lord
His discussions about some of the contortions Redeemer went through to promote women into leadership were very illuminating, and disappointing to read about.
Sadly, he would appear to be on the losing side of a battle within the PCA.
geronimo @ 9:46 am:
“What do you do when you find out your own pastor is enamored with Tim Kellar.”
Bait and black knight him until you’re forced to leave. He’s already dead to Christ and the men left in the church might respond to the rhetoric. Can you rent a Pepe costume and sit in the front row? I bet he’ll know what it means.
Have fun while doing it, otherwise it’s just work.
Primary purpose of Roman Catholicism is to make stuff like this forbidden.
This is a perfect example of something I’ve been noticing for a while. You can divide “Christian” sects up into three groups based on the focus of the service. For the Catholics, Orthodox, and Coptics(I presume), the highlight of the liturgy is the eucharist. For the mainline Protestant denominations, and some Evangelical/non-denominational churches as well as quite a few home churches, the focus is on the sermon. Then, for quite a few non-denominational/evangelical churches, the focus seems to be increasingly on the music/performance.
Yes, the Catholic mass, and Orthodox liturgy have a sermon, and it is important, but it seems to me that the purpose of orthros and the liturgy is to prepare us to partake of the eucharist.
I grew up in and out of different Protestant denominations, and yes, they have music, and occasionally partake of the eucharist, but I don’t recall any of them partaking of the eucharist every week, and even when they did, it was of less import than the sermon.
Lastly, of course, the evangelical churches have a sermon, and likely partake of the eucharist from time to time, but the music performance is becoming more and more important.
Anyway, that’s how things appear to me. I’m sure plenty of people will disagree.
Let’s just bring back the old fashioned Love Feasts. I’d love worshipping the Lord by eating a nice rib roast!
anonymous_ng
Just a quick reminder that only confessional faiths use the term “Eucharist” because it is a theological term based on a doctrine that the rest of the traditions do not recognize. They call it communion usually.
But as to your point, yes. In fact at our parish, the homily is last. It is an exposition by the priest on the readings from that day. As you know, sometimes finding a thread that runs through them is not always easy, but our priest does a pretty good job. He actually delivers it in Serbian and then again in English. He speaks several other languages also.
Approaching the Eucharist at our parish requires slacks and long sleeve shirts for men and head coverings/no flashy high heels, low cut stuff. So at that point of the liturgy if you are not prepared outwardly, don’t approach. You are approaching the body of Christ Himself and communing with all the saints past present and future at once. Receiving spiritual food that a Christian cannot live without is kind of a big deal (to us). The liturgy is one big long corporate prayer and feast.
Teaching, or the sermon in mainline Protestantism is the main thing, because that is the focus. You go there to learn how to apply the scripture to your life. Makes sense from that perspective. This is a rational and intellectual approach to the faith that does indeed have utility. I think the danger of it lies in the risk of intellectualizing the text but not allowing the mysterious movement of the Holy Spirit to do what it does. This was what it was like in seminary for me. Study the Hebrew. Study the Greek. Know every little nuance of it hermeneutically and be able to explain it to others. Win arguments.
And the more charismatic churches? The experience is everything. Not much of either ordered corporate worship or deep theology. Just letting the spirit rush over you n stuff. I have been to churches like that too and felt very alienated because I didn’t know what to do with my hands.
@anonymous_ng
That is not an accident. Reformers (even from before “The Reformation”) intended to refocus the weekly service on God’s Word as the central food of God’s People; explicating it through sermon. I agree with their refocus, but it is not always true that what the pastor says is in fact God’s Word.
I have to agree with this assessment. And fundamental Baptist churches are not immune to it. A lot of pastors treat church like a career path. 3 years as a junior pastor at Daddy’s church. 3 years as an assistant pastor at Daddy’s buddy’s church and then back to the home church to one day inherit the flock. The church is treated like a business. It’s horrible. About 25% of the preaching is dedicated to protecting the church from “usurpers” which is defined as anyone that has a differing opinion. There’s no comraderie among brethern. It’s built on dominance.
Ever hear of liturgical dancers? That sort of nonsense happens around the offertory time at some Masses.
I only saw it in one church. I had no idea why girls needed to be around the altar doing oddball dances.
Earl:
It’s a diversity thing. To the African’s, dance isn’t something recreational. It has been part of their worship for millennia and so it was incorporated into their liturgy; but it was an organic development of a form of worship. The West tried to imitate them, but dancing is something different to us and so when some people tried to force it into the mass, it looked bonkers and is entirely irreverent.
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Yikes. Why are they doing this in the middle of church instead of reading the Bible? By way of a palate cleanser, I give you Baryshnikov in Don Quixote: https://youtu.be/rUnO9-pPz0E. It’s only just over a minute, but proves ballet doesn’t have to be fruity. In fact, classical ballet usually isn’t. The male dancers spend most of their time either lifting girls or doing really high, difficult jumps and turns.
To give these three creatures the benefit of the doubt, we could say they’re not jumping high because they’re trying to be sedate in church, but the whole thing would be less awful if it was two females with one male for the lifts. There are only a few male dancers at the studio I attend, but none of them would be pleased to have to do that fruity dance. The husband and wife team that own the studio always choreograph lots of cool jumps and turns for the male dancers.
@anonymous_ng
(we had a boy at school whose surname was Ng – Chinese, perhaps you are related).
Your division of the three types of Churches are very interesting. I am thus reminded of the great 16th century theological debates as to whether Polyphonic Music was appropriate to Church Service – (was that Vatican 1?). The story doubtless apocryphal was that Palestrina so wowed the Cardinals with whichever of his Masses that they decided it was alright. Pfitzner wrote a wildly historically inaccurate Opera all about it.
One day (in my twenties) I drove up to Paul’s in my Mini Cooper (St Paul’s Cathedral) – no congestion charges then for driving into London nor any fees for parking and no fees either to get into the Cathedral. My sudden bout of religiosity was caused by the performing each Sunday over a period of weeks of one or other of the great Masses written with Orchestra, Soloists and Chorus in their original Mass setting. The Mass I heard was punctuated by one of Schubert’s settings and I must say that in its proper setting it made far more sense than in the concert hall or on record. I like a good sermon, but draw the line at dancing – of any kind; not exactly keen on Eucharist either.
@anonymous_ng
Anyway, that’s how things appear to me. I’m sure plenty of people will disagree.
It’s only one man’s personal observations, but I have attended or visited at churches from all three categories you’ve named in different climes and places (except Orthodox, which I will be visiting); and I think you’ve summed it up well. Sometimes I’ve gotten the impression you can have teaching, or reverence, but not both at the same place.
Neguy-
I agree, I have seen some very excellent stuff from Tim Bayly…he has called out the Gospel Coalition, said that the modern homeschool movement is basically a big matriarchy (true)…obviously what Dalrock found isn’t good, but as far as well-known pastors go, as well-known as Bayly is anyway, I think he is the best I’ve found.
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@Opus, the ng is for New Guy. When I started posting regularly, someone else was anonymous, so I became anonymous_ng. If I remember correctly, Grandmother was born in Sussex. In either event, she was a war bride. There’s no Chinese ancestry that I know of.
@anonymous_ new guy
How interesting. You would not care to share where exactly in Sussex? Since your Grandmother left these shores Sussex has been split in two, that is to say East Sussex and West Sussex. The word Sussex is itself a contraction of South Saxon, as Wessex is of West Saxon and Essex of East Saxon,. There is no North Saxon that I know of.
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Let’s not forget here that ultimately the decision to allow this, like everything else in Tim Keller’s church and life, was made by his wife. Cut the guy some slack, you know how she gets.
Exactly. Pastor Kathy Keller is the real power behind the pulpit, which is the case in most evangelical churches. What Misses Pastor says, goes. Even when it comes out of her husband’s mouth, it’s her voice decreeing it.
@Opus, I was mistaken, not Sussex, but New Cross in London, and married to my paternal grandfather in Mottingham.
Opus
(we had a boy at school whose surname was Ng – Chinese, perhaps you are related).
That reminds me, I met a man from London once by the name of Smith. Perhaps you know him?
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Puke.
New Cross, on the way into London (from the South East – so never stopped there – the next stop being London Bridge). Mottingham is a mile or two to the south: I once spent as a school boy a day at its athletics stadium.
Never met anyone by name of Smith but I once knew a man by the name of Reader.
I posted this on another thread, and while it’s a parody, it sadly resembles “worship” in many churches of various denominations today. No wonder the men are feminized or simply don’t want to participate. The first half of it could pass for a real praise song:
LOL…I found another one of their videos. 80% of the churches they look at are unattractive.
My understanding is that most Bishops have put the kibboshh on that in their jurisdictions. I have personally never seen it,
Opus
Never met anyone by name of Smith but I once knew a man by the name of Reader.
Couldn’t have been me.
I confirmed via the ballet studio owner that the lead guy’s moves are exceedingly, and unusually, effeminate. I did not even prime her other than to say, “I haven’t seen a lot of ballet and wasn’t sure if this was representative or not. What do you think?” The first words out of her mouth was, “I’m not exactly sure how that guy is doing it, but every move he makes looks incredibly effeminate. He dances like a ballerina.” She followed up with, “They’re all obviously skilled. Those other two are fine, but he makes the dance look gay.” Understand: this is not a conservative woman.
This does appear to be during the offertory of a service. In my church the decons are in charge of the collection. The decons in my church are male by biblical decree. That appears to be a female handling the collection plate in the video.
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