From the Daily Mail: Why I’m proud to have frozen my eggs at 38: Top scientist urges women in their 30s to follow her lead as she delays motherhood to ‘side-step her biological clock’
A scientist and broadcaster told how she had frozen her eggs ‘to side-step her biological clock’ – and urged other women in their 30s to consider doing the same.
…
She said: ‘I strongly believe that all women in their mid to late 30s should be made aware of the risks of waiting too long to try for a family … and, more importantly, that there’s no shame in freezing your eggs.
…
‘Thanks to modern science we have the opportunity to take a look at our biological clocks and side-step them for long enough to give ourselves a chance of motherhood that otherwise might not have been possible.’
The “top scientist” is Dr Emily Grossman, a TV personality on a British science show. The similarities to Wendy Griffith are uncanny:
- Griffith is a TV presenter for Christian Broadcasting Network, while Grossman is a TV presenter for the secular religion, science.
- Both women have set themselves up as role models other women should follow to attain marriage (Griffith) and motherhood (Grossman), even though both have failed to achieve these goals.
- Both use a poor understanding of their respective religions to not only justify their own bad decisions, but urge gullible young women to follow in their footsteps.
In line with the last bullet point, The Mail explains that Grossman’s strategy is a very low percentage bet (emphasis mine):
…official figures show only around 15 per cent of IVF cycles using frozen eggs are successful – and just 60 babies have been born from frozen eggs since 2001.
This makes it a tight competition for which woman is offering worse advice. Is it 53 year old never married Griffith, explaining to young Christian women that if they hold out long enough God will give them their perfect husband? Or is it 38 year old childless Grossman, explaining that science allows women to focus their fertile years on their careers without losing the opportunity to conceive?
Edit: According to USC Fertility, approximately 5,000 babies have been born worldwide from frozen eggs.
Two useless and gullible twits. May their stupidity bring them much sorrow.
Did these broads ever think of what men might want? Nope? Did they think of the long term effects their selfishness might bring to any children they might bring up like this. Genetic problems? Health problems? Down Syndrome? Retardation? Anything at all? Oh, nope!
Even Science is now trying to pander to the selfish nature of women, still willing to pretend they can put off motherhood until the last millisecond and still come out ahead.
Both of these empty headed bitches deserve scorn and ridicule, they’re an infectious virus at this point.
Pingback: Wendy Griffith’s secular doppelganger. | @the_arv
I knew I’d seen her being stupid somewhere before.
She graduated from Cambridge, if you can believe it.
I am no longer surprised to learn that such and such dummy graduated from such and such prestigious university.
In fact, I think the correlation p value is approaching 1.
Women want fried ice…reality says you choose either fried or ice. That’s just the way it is.
Women were made to be mothers…not cogs in the economic machine.
“just 60 babies have been born from frozen eggs since 2001”
That is a phenomenal statistic.
‘Is it 53 year old never married Griffith, explaining to young Christian women that if they hold out long enough God will give them their perfect husband?’
I’d say this one…it makes women think God is their own personal husband vending machine.
It goes back to praying to God to help you in a natural disaster. He sent you a police car, a helicopter, and a boat…but you stayed as the floodwaters kept coming up because they didn’t produce the correct feelings.
You know what I think would solve a lot of this panic, Earl? If women worried about a husband spent their time serving God instead. As people go their seperate ways in ministries and marry off, the herd will thin out until one day you’re looking at that one person doing the exact same thing you’re doing in the exact same region and it becomes really obvious that you’ve found a genuine partner. Instead people want to marry off in college based on their fleeting emotions and somehow work it out from there. We’ll figure out on the way what God’s will is…
…Or not marry, as it were. The point being, they’re focusing on their needs instead of God’s work.
It’s not clear exactly how many babies have been born from frozen eggs, but by some estimates, it’s in the low thousands. The procedure was first used in 1986. According to the USC Fertility Center, part of the Keck School of Medicine at the University of Southern California, about 5,000 babies have been born from frozen eggs worldwide. – From LiveScience
[D: Thanks. I had just done my own search and found the same LiveScience article. From there I found the USC FAQ. I’ve added an edit to the post.]
This is all about the illusion of control. I’m still coming to grips with just how much women want control of everyone and everything around them. Probably just compensation for their own phyical weakness, but it might just go deeper than that.
Freezing eggs for some hypothetical future husband? Control of her own fertility on top of whatever contraception she uses plus all the child care at her fingertips plus, of course, the option to abort. Control…
Griffith is all about control, too, just in a churchlady fashion. Earl already pointed it out:
It’s obvious that any man foolish enough to wife her up will be given a nice chauffeur hat to wear as part of any wedding ceremony, because she’s not about to give up her church version of YuGoGrrl. God as vending machine is followed by husband as employee / child / slave just as night follows day.
God-as-vending machine is very popular, and not just in the obvious Prosperity Gospel fashion, either. There’s a “Men Do That Too” angle but I am not at all interested in that right now.
@squid_hunt
That would be an improvement, actually. Most women–by far–would best serve God by striving to find a husband, have children, and then through dealing with them will discover God’s will as time and circumstances reveal; which is that we should all hear the Gospel, repent, and be saved.
The delusion is indeed strong. She has to realize that it’s unlikely she’ll ever have kids from her frozen eggs. It just makes her feel better that she has a “chance” at it, I guess. Bottom line is that it isn’t a priority for her, because if it was then she wouldn’t be prioritizing her career during her naturally fertile years, so if it doesn’t work out (which is likely), she shouldn’t be too upset — after all, it wasn’t a priority for her to begin with.
Griffiths is also deluded, but in a more profound way because while Grossman likely recognizes the likelihood percentages involved with IVF of frozen eggs, Griffiths seems to live entirely in a fantasy world where women in their 50s are prizes to be won. Surely that’s a much more profound state of delusion.
Instead people want to marry off in college based on their fleeting emotions and somehow work it out from there. We’ll figure out on the way what God’s will is…
Not too many do marry in college, though. Most seem to wait until the late 20s, thereby leaving the rest of their 20s to “have experiences” (read: date various kinds of attractive yet unmarriageable men) before they marry, acquiring all sorts of baggage (ahem … “knowledge”) along the way. If more people met in college, married there, and worked through their growth in the context of the marriage and following God, things would be much better than they are now in terms of the Christian marriage culture.
I’d say this one…it makes women think God is their own personal husband vending machine.
If it doesn’t happen…well, God failed them.
What other logical conclusion can you reach?
Novaseeker
Griffiths seems to live entirely in a fantasy world where women in their 50s are prizes to be won.
She lives in “Woman-Positive Church going USA 2017” as far as I can tell.
Surely that’s a much more profound state of delusion.
Yes. To be fair, the “WOMAN POSITIVE” part is way more powerful than the other part.
@Anchorman
Ha. The obvious answer is… men failed them. As John Piper explains:
More children who more than likely will end up in a daycare or raised by a nanny. I know someone who tutored children in wealthy homes and they were some of the most lonely ones she ever met. Children are not a fashion accessory. Get a small dog or better yet cats!
There is now a profitable industry preying upon the hopes and desperation of such women.
Elaborate financing up to $15,000 to $20,000 per individual with payment plans of $800 per year for each frozen ovum.
Some examples:
$300 – Initial consultation with our fertility specialist and pre-screening procedures that include hormonal blood work and pelvic ultrasound
• $7,500 – One cycle of ovarian stimulation, monitoring, egg retrieval and vitrification, plus the first year of egg cryo storage
• $2,000 – Medication costs per cycle (estimated)
• $500 – Storage fee per year after the first year and will be billed annually from the date of cryopreservation.
This is roughly $10,000 just to preserve the eggs. We even haven’t gotten to the IVF, which is conveniently where everything crashes and burns, by the way.
The biggest problem for the Wendy’s of the world will be the IVF piece.
IVF fails at high rates because:
1. Egg and embryo Quality
Eggs are 24 are better than eggs at 26, 28, 30 and 35. This is a common problem especially because most women are first submitting eggs for freezing at older age older than 24 years. In 99.9% of all cases. Most women don’t “wake up” to reality until well past 30.
2. Receptivity of the Uterus
Wendy’s uterus and her endometrium at 30 and 35 and 40 will gradually become more thin, less nourishing, weaker and less viable for childbirth. Biologically a human female’s uterus is at optimum firepower between ages 16 and 24. But we care so much about women’s feelings and accusations of pedophilia, we dare not mention these truths about our human evolution for risk off offending sensibilities.
3. Embryo Transfer (The “Rate Limiting” Technical Step)
There are a lot of chemicals in shifting amounts within the body of a pregnant woman. It changes by the hour of the day. It’s extremely complex. You try to implant the embryo on the wrong day and it’s ova. (No pun intended).
Overall, I think this is an excellent way to play off the fears of single, independent, empowered women whose fertility window has closed. Let’s try to set morality and Christianity aside for a moment. If you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars doing this, stoking fears and creating urgency where none really exists because at 35 what’s the urgency? It’s over. Beside, becoming pregnant after 30 is borderline irresponsible behvior by women, especially if you consider current data and stats on premature births and human birth defects. It’s obscene.
There are people out there wisely exploiting this paranoia for money. And clearly, it’s going to work and is already selling like hotcakes.
@Cane Caldo
If your argument is that there would be less sin in the church with that method, I’d agree, but I don’t think there’s any obligation to marry, IF you don’t engage in fornication.
It’s much easier to spot a suitable or unsuitable spousem, though, if they’re doing something other than lazing around waiting on a husband. (And in fundamental baptist circles, a lot of women are doing exactly that.) I’d much rather a woman be busy about the church as a young lady. Actions speak louder than words and I’m raising my sons to look for that.
Great post ConstrainedLocus @ September 11, 2017 at 11:12 am! Additionally, the American male has started to rouse himself from a decades old slumber and the result will be… well, this man explains it better than I can: https://youtu.be/39_lhqjy7JE
@novaseeker
You’re probably right about that. The church I just left was the first church I’ve been in where marriage wasn’t a priority, even for college women. That’s possibility due to 1. the close proximity of LSU and its secular influence (College was a BIG deal in that church.) and 2. our pastor and his wife were closet feminists. The end result was exactly what you’re describing: a bunch of useless young women who spent their time chasing trash outside the church and never getting married. There were also a bunch of perpetual Peter Pans talking about all the great things they were going to do.
At the end of the day, though, I don’t think marriage for the sake of marriage should be something people focus on. If you don’t have a husband or wife, get busy for God until you find one. Relax about it. You should marry someone your’e going to be able to live the rest of your life with and a good start to that is having someone that wants to serve God the way you do. Which is in no way an argument to delay marriage, just don’t make it your primary focus.
American,
Can you try posting using a different email address? From the troubleshooting I did on Friday it looks like WordPress sending your comments to moderation because of the email address. So far WordPress support hasn’t responded to me on the subject, but it should be easy enough to enter a different address. It doesn’t even have to be real, it just has to be unique and something you can remember.
Whenever I see the assertion of Pride such as that made by Dr Grossman I always assume that the emotion really being felt is Shame. The elephant in the room which no one is prepared to mention is her wilful childlessness, her audience being too embarrassed to acknowledge her past present and likely future failure to produce a family – even of one. I presume however that her audience will have applauded her bravery and independence.
It must be so galling to women like Dr Grossman that for a man to embark on Fatherhood after the age of thirty-eight although not ideal presents no obvious problem indeed in some ways it might be to the children born, beneficial.The commenters at the Mail who did not have the advantage of tertiary education at Cambridge and are not Top anything are unimpressed. Can a woman who is cute enough to appear as a television presenter really be a top scientist? Top scientist, like, say, your Bill Nye?
Also, I think about this.
Even if an enlightened, empowered, well-educated, gainfully-employed strong independent woman springs on this risk early, say at age 24 or 25, and decides to freeze her eggs, do you think she’ll freeze more than one?
Shouldn’t she freeze two? What about three?
I mean, she’s smart. She’s going to want to prepare well for this eventuality, right?
But how many 25 year old women have $10K laying around? Or $20K or $30K laying around?
They don’t.
But are they going to seriously wait until 00:40 seconds are on the play clock and hope their one egg, their one uterus and the 5-star, blue chip surgeon is going implant things correctly and at the right time? Gotta have faith. But this is literally and figuratively a Hail Mary attempt, and with predictable results, namely failure.
They don’t have it.
They won’t have it.
So the “customers” of this elaborate fail-rich service will be women firmly planted in bitter, desperate demographic of 30 to 40 years of age.
They will have the money.
They just won’t have the egg quality nor the hormones, resilient uterus muscle and thick, luscious, nutrient-rich endometria to make it all come together.
The fact that young women have healthier pregnancies and children is born in statistical fact.
Inspiring images of Rosie the Riveter and all of the feel-good triumphalism from the Sisterhood have no say.
That’s where I found my previous interests. One even flat out said she wanted to be married and have children.
Then I come around and announce my interests and suddenly she didn’t think that anymore (at least with me).
Point being even church women are still women. If they want to get married, they’ll get married. If they want to follow their emotions, they’ll follow their emotions.
Which is fine, but these women should accept their position with contentment, not harangue God about it.
I don’t think marriage for the sake of marriage should be something people focus on. If you don’t have a husband or wife, get busy for God until you find one. Relax about it.
That is good advice. Serving the Lord is a reward and according to St. Paul…a more rewarding path than marriage. It takes an extraordinary efforts to do it though.
Which is fine, but these women should accept their position with contentment, not harangue God about it.
Of the two, “yell at someone” is the easier and thus preferable option.
They should…but we often know how it goes. They say they want to be married and have kids, reject the suitors who step up, and then lament why God hasn’t brought them a husband and kids. It’s not God who is the problem…but the fact she’s mad that she’s using her free will to choose that she doesn’t really want marriage and kids.
From my experience, they also have to engage in discipleship as a means of justification, in this case, with my twelve year old daughter. Which is a significant portion of why we don’t go to that church anymore.
Exactly whose sperm is going to inseminate these eggs?
And please note…I don’t want women just choosing any man to get married to. There’s plenty of bad options out there she shouldn’t get married to. I’m talking about the ones who reject a decent God-fearing man just because she doesn’t feel the correct emotions…or accept the ones who are destructive just because they give her the proper amount of roller coaster emotions.
“According to USC Fertility, approximately 5,000 babies have been born worldwide from frozen eggs.” ~ Dalrock
Out of 7 billion people.
Novaseeker: thereby leaving the rest of their 20s to “have experiences” (read: date various kinds of attractive yet unmarriageable men) before they marry, acquiring all sorts of baggage (ahem … “knowledge”) along the way.
Or as women put it, they spend their 20s gaining experiences, knowledge, and maturity. They find themselves … learn who they are … get in touch with themselves … know that they want out of life … what they want in a man.
Thus, in their 30s, they are more grounded, stable, mature, seasoned, and wise than they were at 20. In their 30s, they are prime wife material … a true prize … a real woman, that any real man would prefer over a silly, immature, 20-year-old girl-child.
‘Lay not that flattering unction to your soul’
Hamlet, Act III Scene iv
Women get married later because there is no longer old maid shame. Don’t know when it stopped, before my time, obviously. I knew a couple once that had been married more than 65 years where the woman joked (kind of, she was partly serious) that she was afraid of being an old maid. She was 25 when she got married. Different time and perspective than now.
Opus says: Can a woman who is cute enough to appear as a television presenter really be a top scientist?
She’s not that cute. From what I can see, she’s fat.
squid_hunt,
Except they may ignore the husband God sent following that strictly. Waiting until only one remains means a longer time until marrying, which is not a good idea for a long term stable marriage.
Focusing on serving God is good, but the problem today is also delaying marriage and encouraging that is not wise. Most women are called to be married for life, not to have an active ministry. Some may be called to life long ministry and they should do something useful while waiting, but putting of marriage is not a good idea.
This would still require looking beyond their own needs, as we all should do.
Yeah the maturity part is laughable. Having strange men inside you and being in debt from spending money you don’t have on trips doesn’t equal maturity…it equals irresponsibility.
ys: Women get married later because there is no longer old maid shame. Don’t know when it stopped, before my time, obviously.
I think it was during the 1970s that feminists first loudly complained about the “double standard” whereby aging bachelors were regarded as sexy playboys, whereas aging spinsters were regarded as old maids. A lot of 1970s sitcoms had feminist characters who attacked that “double standard” (e.g., Maude from All in the Family; Phyllis from The Mary Tyler Moore Show — both characters went on to their own series).
Here’s a scene from the 1992 film, Bram Stoker’s Dracula, in which Lucy laments that she’s almost 20 and still unmarried. This scene is a feminist swipe at Victorian sexism.
Emily Grossman isn’t fat. She is sorta flat-chested and has a horsey looking face, but everyone has flaws. In my opinion she’s just a normal looking older woman who was probably cute enough to land a good earner as a kid. She passed over all those nice boys in Hebrew School and temple in order to live large. I wonder how many nice young men she shot down, while scoffing and mocking them? More than one, I’d guess.
I note with amusement that even women like this, who are bright enough to get advanced degrees, still lack the common sense and foresight to prioritize what they’re instinctively called to do. Oh well. No baby time for this shebrew, and it’s no one’s fault but her own.
Regards,
Boxer
@BillyS
I don’t know that there’s a biblical calling to be married for a specific individual. I’m curious what your basis for the concept is, biblically. Paul gives us most of our practical advice for marriage and he’s pragmatic about it. You want to get married? Sure, go for it. Live for God.
I also don’t think you can argue marrying younger makes for a stable marriage, which is the implied alternative. (Assuming they did everything biblically correct.)
Compared to an average American female, she’s in pretty good shape. Looks-wise she’s still doing good for 38, even still has the long hair. Problem is, much like a lot of women now, is they are completely delusional and have a prideful attitude.
mgtowhorseman @ 12:24 pm:
“Exactly whose sperm is going to inseminate these eggs?”
If you truly love her then you’ll jerk off in the test tube. Do you think AARP would offer a member discount?
Women are seriously not thinking egg-freezing through. I can’t accept their willful ignorance of The Wall, let alone their “I’ll just rely on modern medicine to give me a baby after menopause” attitude.
re: the edit, that 60 number did seem fantastically and improbably low.
It isn’t (or shouldn’t be) an alternative strategy; it’s an insurance policy, with a chance of paying off in case the regular path doesn’t work out. Most women know the right way to do things instinctively, it’s only the ones that failed at it that go around desperately trying to convince everyone (and themselves first of all) that they meant to do it that way all along.
@squid_hunt
From 1 Cor. 7:1
Each man and each woman should get married, Paul wrote. He follows on in verse 6:
An untwisted interpretation is that there is a command is for each man and each woman to marry, but that concessions–exceptions–might and should be made in specific cases for specific reasons.
It stands as the height of wisdom to conclude that a commanded activity which curbs temptation and sin is going to result in better circumstances–better lives and marriages–if those circumstances are less fraught with stumbling blocks.
53 and still looking for that man to father her child, Does not think that seeing your child finishing school from the video someone made for you to see in the old folks home is not a consideration – She is done, put a fork in her.
You can’t read those verses in context and come away with the doctrine that there is a command to be married. The entire chapter is a “Do what you want, but don’t sin.” passage of advice, not command. The necessity of marriage is based on your own ability to restrain your urges and serve God. And I say that admitting that most people, especially in this current culture, can’t handle being single. That’s not describing an individual call to be married.
But my point is that if you can handle it, and you choose that, don’t waste everyone’s time whining about how things turned out. You want to be superfeminist saving the world in the name of God, don’t come back crying about how no man wants you. Acceept your own decisions. You’re old and likely bossy. No man wants that.
You know what I think would solve a lot of this panic, Earl? If women worried about a husband spent their time serving God instead. As people go their seperate ways in ministries and marry off, the herd will thin out until one day you’re looking at that one person doing the exact same thing you’re doing in the exact same region and it becomes really obvious that you’ve found a genuine partner.
Well, perhaps you ought to explain to God how He screwed up, b/c that’s not his general direction. Well, you and the “Christian feminists” and their white knights, b/c that’s exactly what they’ve been saying for decades.
And it sure disagrees w/ scriptures:
Serving a husband IS serving God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
1 Tim 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Instead people want to marry off in college based on their fleeting emotions
Imagine that!
Prov 5:18 Let your fountain be blessed,
And rejoice with the wife of your youth.
Nevermind that getting married at college age was the norm for millennia, now it’s all the concern about “fleeting emotions.” As if emotions aren’t fleeting in your late 20s, 30s, 40s, etc.
Of course the purpose of marriage:
Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”
Perhaps you can explain to God that He made another mistake, and that’s it’s actually good for a man to be alone during his college years. So good that you’re around to fix God’s errors.
The good news is that fewer and fewer men see any benefit whatsoever in waiting for some girl-child in a woman’s body to sort through her emotional baggage. It’s (they’re) just not worth the effort and men today have enough to focus on in taking care of themselves (and that’s what they would do even if married; today’s Norteamericanas are USELESS as helpmeets) that wasting energy on useless, solipsistic estrogen vessels is a luxury few are willing to permit themselves.
Bottom line: western (specifically North American) women are going to continue to flake themselves into spinsterhood because 1) patriarchy is dead and fathers no longer maintain control over their airheaded daughters as they did in the past, and, perhaps even more relevant 2) we in the West still live amid just enough residual prosperity that we can still afford to indulge these stupid, immature, irresponsible twats and not suffer large-scale societal consequences from it. Let the Great Collapse occur, however, and that will change forthwith.
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@DrTorch
Christian feminist…Yeah, ok.
A woman is not a wife, therefore the obligations of a wife are not on a woman. That argument is nonsense.
Explain to me the biblical basis for shipping your daughter off somewhere to find a man in college. I’ll admit that there’s no direct commandment opposed to it, but it violates biblical principles for protecting your daughters, particularly ones you seem to be pretending to adhere to. What do I know, though?
Isaac got married to the wife of his youth at what? 40?
Your definition of correcting God seems to be correcting the ideas you want to attribute to God without any support in scripture. Again, I’m not saying everyone should refuse to marry so they can be free. I said there’s no biblical requirement and not even a mention of a calling for a specific woman or a man to marry. It doesn’t exist. Grousing about someone else’s daughter not being married is weird. If she’s obedient to the scripture, she’s very clearly allowed. It’s none of your business, Doc.
Top scientist, like, say, your Bill Nye?
Ah, you refer to the ‘top scientist’ that has a Master’s in Engineering?
Explain to me the biblical basis for shipping your daughter off somewhere to find a man in college.
I never said that. You obviously have gone straight to straw man arguments.
Your definition of correcting God seems to be correcting the ideas you want to attribute to God without any support in scripture.
Ironically, only one of us actually quotes scripture.
The rest of your post doesn’t make any sense, so I’ll skip it.
@squid_hunt
That is absolutely false. St. Paul delineates which of his words are commands from God, and which are his advice.
You said “in context”, and rightly so because there is very little written in the NT about remaining single. There are paragraphs of instruction in more than a few epistles about how to be a godly husband and wife, but only a few sentences about remaining single, and those are all given as caveats. And in the beginning they were created male and female and they are to be one flesh. At the end of this world, Christ will do a thing which is essentially so like marriage that we are told our marriages are to reflect that glory.
What does the NT, or any religious work for that matter, have to say about sex and marriage when everyone will be gestated in an artificial womb and born in a lab?
@squid_hunt
Totally agree.
Science is not a religion. Science, proper, actually tells her this is a bad idea. She is choosing to disregard the evidence.
What a cold and clinical way to start a family.
I’m sure natural infertility in a young couple would be sad but this over technological remedy is awful even for those who got married appropriately.
@Dr. Torch
Pretty sure you defended marriage through college pretty thoroughly. If you’re going to play semantic games, I doubt it’s going to go very far anyway. Since I stated there isn’t a specific call for marriage in an individual’s life (And there isn’t.) that’s going to be pretty hard to come up with verses that prove there’s not a verse to disprove me. I don’t know if you can call misapplying instructions to married women toward women in general quoting scripture.
@Cane Caldo
I really don’t want to post I Corinthians 7 in its entirety. It starts off saying, the things you asked of me, yeah, sure. Go get married so you don’t fornicate:
v2 let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
He then explains how that woreks in verses 3-5. In verse six he states quite clearly that it is not a commandment to go marry, but a permission to marry:
v6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
Then states that he’d rather everyone stay single, like him, (v7) that it’s good to be single (v8), but if they can’t handle it to go ahead and get married (v9).
He says God doesn’t want them to divorce (v10) and certainly not to remarry. (v11)
Then says that HE (not God) thinks it’s alright if a lost spouse divorces you that you can remmary. (v12)
V17-24 Paul is saying that whatever state you’re in when you get saved, stay in that state. In context that’s a pretty strong implication that if you’re not married, don’t get married. Although I think you might be able to safely assume that was based on the view that Christ would be coming back VERY soon. As in, their lifetime. I’ve also heard it said that was based on their current persecution.
v 25-36 he reiterates almost everything he’s already said and states a married man (or woman) is going to have problems and be distracted from serving God.
V37 states once again that you do well to not marry. v38 says marrying is doing well, but staying single does BETTER.
It’s saying nearly the opposite of what youre’ saying. It’s better not to marry. That’s what the Bible teaches. He said in context he wasn’t commanding them to marry, but permitting them to marry. I Corinthians 7 is a simple passage that gets blown way out of proportion, in my opinion.
I suppose it is a case of ‘if I can’t have any children then I want all you bitches to be childless like me’. I am guessing that the reason for her single-dom (now that I have learnt of her alleged religion/ethnicity – sounded German to me though unlike America England is not full of people of German ancestry and surnames – but what would I know) is because people like Mark won’t go near her. If he wont then why should we?
Miss Grossman reminds me of the allegorical story of the man on his death-bed saying ‘if only I had put in a few more hours at work’. Miss Grossman also assumes that she will go on without illness or debility until she is ninety-five. About half of all women will fail to reach three score and ten or just a few years over. One cannot serve two masters, which I see is from Matthew 6.
‘Girl-child’…that’s a perfect way to state their emotional immaturity.
I get they probably won’t ever attain the level of emotional maturity a healthy man can attain…but they should at least be more emotionally mature than adolescants, children, and infants.
https://smile.amazon.com/Hite-Report-Family-Growing-Patriarchy/dp/0788163396/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
https://smile.amazon.com/Hite-Report-Male-Sexuality/dp/039441392X/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
Anything to avoid the uncomfortable truth.
* Women want to be cared for
* Women want to be married
* Women want to have children
* Women want to be protected.
But hey……..Frozen eggs, a thinning uterus wall, and Big Daddy Government as the wind at your back is nearly as good . (Sarcasm added – dripping thereof)
That is your reading of it. Listen to the words. It’s GOOD to not have sexual relations with a woman. Did you read that? The only reason marriage is offered is because of ‘sexual immorality’ or ‘temptations. If you can be like Paul and control your sexual lusts then you don’t have to get married to find the solution, you already have it. Even Jesus himself says some are just not equipped to deal with marriage, leave them be.
Explain how modern marriage curbs temptation and sin, currently, as it stands now…?
It is not a command either way. It’s your choice, get married or don’t, it’s your call. Both Paul and God leave this up to you. There is no command to get married or not to get married. One is not greater than the other.
It’s not just specific cases, it’s in each and every single case.
Every single person has their own gift, it’s not one or the other. You are not bound to do either. Paul even wishes everyone was more like him.
Back to square one, ball’s in your court, modern marriage does nothing to curb the temptation of sin. It provides more problems and no solutions. The wife or husband are under no obligation to have sex with each other, you don’t own your wife’s body but she owns you, she can do whatever she wants and anything you try to do to stop it, is abuse. Marriage is a disaster. Paul gave advise for this exact type of scenario. When marriage is a shit deal, one should not look to enter it. It’s better to learn to control oneself instead of placing yourself in a worse situation than before.
In days gone by, many people died without getting married. It really isn’t your business. Fix the shit deal of marriage or don’t, but trying to tell people to get married when the deal is blatantly crap and nothing like what Paul envisioned won’t get your anywhere. The decline of marriage will just keep ticking along.
Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.
Marriage thumpers love to use this one without acknowledging the change that happened after the fall. Eve ain’t Adam’s helper anymore. She sought to control him, to manipulate him. A helper doesn’t cause the crap in a man’s life that a modern woman brings. A modern woman is simply not a helper in any way, shape or form.
*Mic Drop*
Done, let your brother remain in the condition for which he was called.
Can anyone give me the “beginner’s guide” to the redpill? I’m not really interested in something that will sway normal people, I just want to find out what the starting premises are.
I’ve pretty much absorbed the ideology by osmosis. I can’t articulate any aspect (“Female ’empowerment’ is bad because…” “Men and women can’t do the same things because…” “Single mothers are bad because…” “Equalism is a hoax because…”) of the redpill because I only really have seen writings where its premises are treated as if they are material already covered and never mentioned.
@ Dalrock September 11, 2017 at 11:31 am: Ack. Will do. Let’s try this one first, see if that works.
Do these women enjoy or tolerate sex?
I don’t see any fun in this. Sex is suppose to be pleasurable but I guess there is no pleasure in it for these women.
Earl,
You assume the problem is with too many younger women looking too much for marriage. Your concerns might be valid in a different society, but we have most young women putting it off now, so focus on that problem first.
Likely 40+ at best trying to lock down a man for commitment then a while to get him to agree to inseminate. This is no oops pregnancy this is as someone said Purposely sperm in a cup.
Or if they cant lock down then donated sperm. But from where? Canada, U.K. and E.U. have moved away from anonymous donors and the U.S. is moving away from paid anonymous donors.
So great you have eggs. Ladies, check the recipe! Ingredients needed.
So I will ask it again and someone needs to ask these women
Where Is The Sperm Coming From???
Squid,
Most are called to marry. Some are called to a complete focus only on ministry. That is a permanent calling, not a temporary one. Few women are devoting themselves to ministry. Even Paul noted the value of younger widows remarrying, implying the same for most younger women.
He also lived a lot longer. Lifespans declined over the years since the Creation. Apples and Oranges. Abraham also married his sister, but that is not a good idea today.
Are you really arguing that waiting until 40 is a good idea for most today? Really?
I know women can’t cook nowadays but really they need to realize the main ingredient is out of their control.
What a cold and clinical way to start a family….
I agree. It’s cold. Frozen cold. And clinical, lol.
I did?
Silly man…she’s a Cambridge educated female scientist. She’s obviously is too well educated to ask simple questions like that. Besides asking questions like that will only hurt her feelings of egg freezing empowerment.
According to UNICEF, 350,000 babies are born every day.
I believe you were arguing that it was better for women to delay marriage. Perhaps that was just squid, but you seemed to have agreed.
I agreed they should serve the Lord is good advice. Getting married isn’t actually a contradiction to that…because they should submit to their husbands as to the Lord. It would make them better wives IMO.
They shouldn’t really delay marriage though…they should be prudent with who they choose to get married to, and it shouldn’t be based only on if he makes her feel the right feelings.
speculativeramblings @ 3:55 pm:
“Can anyone give me the “beginner’s guide” to the redpill?”
Start by learning natural (uncontrolled) female behavior: hypergamy, 80/20 principle, solipsism, Alpha Fux/Beta Bucks. Draw the connections from that to why modern society is failing: welfare state, endless consumerism, disdain for masculine honor and work ethic, institutional hatred of unsexy men. Then consider how you personally choose to respond: take advantage of women (PUA/grudge-fucking), join women (Tradcon/Antifa), shun women (MGTOW/incel) or swim upstream (search for an unspoiled woman and try to beat the odds). Note that escape is not an option.
Throw in the five stages of grief at some point and that’s the red pill in a capsule.
@BillyS
Give me a verse, please. And no. I’m not arguing to wait until 40. I’m pointing out that saying “Wife of my youth.” is not defined in the Bible as “college age”.
Heh. No. I did not.
Sorry for the off topic comment everybody, but are you guys familiar with pastor Tim Bayly in Indiana? He recently published a book on homosexuality entitled “The grace of shame – seven ways the church has failed to love homosexuals”.
At present, the book can be downloaded for free as a PDF. I’m halfway through it, and it is quite good so far. He calls out folks like Tim Keller, The Gospel Coalition, and Albert Mohler for being dishonest and cowardly soft when standing up for Biblical sexuality.
The book also confronts feminism, and effeminate men/butch women as rebellion against God’s created order.
I wouldn’t call pastor Bayly ” red pill”, but just more of a Berean calling out Complimentarians for being wusses.
I highly recommend the book. Plus it is free.
Did God fail to provide her with a husband, or did He deliver salvation to the man?
speculativeramblings @ 3:55 pm
See this; 95%+ women want a” strong” man not a good man. The blue pill lie from mothers trying to encourage virtue is that women dont like quickies and really want a reliable father. BS!!!!!!
At a primative level They do NOT see good vs bad but strong vs weak. Swagger no matter how unjustified is seen as proof of a strong man. A risk taking rule breaking trouble maker is seen as strong dominating male, will cause gina tingles. That choir boy eagle scout medical school bound nice guy that mama love is seen as weak and dull, because he follows instructions. And Young women would rather be beaten than bored.
I am sure you have personally seen evidence to back this up. Pickup artists and players succeed Because they understand this. We all have seen Tommy Trouble, Johnny jailbird and NO Job Nick get all the female attention he wants. Mr Nice Guy is ignored,and placed in Friend Zone (list of dull attentive males to ask free favors from/ never have sex with).
I’m sure you went that far to make a point…but the idea is they would rather be emotionally stimulated than not, because they often think their feelings are truth.
@AR
”God-as-vending machine is very popular”
Its a way of justifying idleness. Like prayer replacing studying or earning one’s own bread. When in reality blessing comes to those who work. Not for those who are idle(Deuteronomy 28:12)
I just love it when people argue about whether a man is required to marry .. and resort to (wrongly) applying scripture.
Let me ask you men who think a man is required to marry .. Did OUR LORD and Savior the Christ Jesus marry?
I’ll wait for your answer with supporting reference’s.
Not to a physical woman…Christ and the church are seen as what man-woman marriage is modelled after.
Exactly Earl.
Not to a physical woman…Christ and the church are seen as what man-woman marriage is modelled after.
As a man .. you are not required to marry .. and anyone who tells you it’s a requirement has false teaching / knowledge .. and not one other word should ever be considered from those individuals.
Shame on them and their false teachings / interpretations of scripture.
Honestly it’s probably more of a problem of people not praying and not working. But yes you should not only pray and then do nothing. Realistically you should pray and be out there.
In fact there are four types of prayer…it’s not just asking God for things you want.
Blessing and Adoration (praising God)
Prayer of Petition (asking for what we need, including forgiveness)
Prayer of Intercession (asking for what others need)
Prayer of Thanksgiving (for what God has given and done)
@Gunner Q
“Start by learning natural (uncontrolled) female behavior: hypergamy, 80/20 principle, solipsism, Alpha Fux/Beta Bucks. Draw the connections from that to why modern society is failing: welfare state, endless consumerism, disdain for masculine honor and work ethic, institutional hatred of unsexy men. Then consider how you personally choose to respond: take advantage of women (PUA/grudge-fucking), join women (Tradcon/Antifa), shun women (MGTOW/incel) or swim upstream (search for an unspoiled woman and try to beat the odds). Note that escape is not an option.”
Okay, off the top of my head:
Hypergamy: Females tend toward men who are better than them in some (obvious) aspect (such as money or social status). I think it also results in a lust for power itself to cut out the male middleman (or is that something else?).
80/20 rule: The top twenty percent of men get the top eighty percent of women if the lustful desires of both are unbridled.
Solipsism: Females tend filter things through their own experiences. They tend to take everything personally. They don’t grasp the severity of a situation until it personally and directly affects them, and only if it is immediate.
Alpha Fux: Alpha traits are traits that are sexually desirable to women. They tend to shut off the forebrain of women.
Beta Bucks: Beta traits are traits that provide for women and give them their needs. They are unconsciously viewed with disdain but vocally desired.
I don’t know how those first three failures after the colon are linked to the above, but I do know that the fourth one, hatred for unsexy men, results from women pushing themselves into positions of influence (mostly and especially media) and projecting their views (solipsism) into the way that everything else ought to be. I also know that second-wave feminism’s sexual liberation led to the breakdown of the family structure (which leads me to another stopping point; I think that that’s bad, but I don’t know how) as well as the proliferation of state-sanctioned murder, abortion. Second-wave feminism was made possible through first-wave feminism, which was made up of women who were unable to attract mates and had to acquire power through other means.
Are these accurate?
info
[God as vending machine]
Its a way of justifying idleness.
Also blame shifting.
I’m pointing out that saying “Wife of my youth.” is not defined in the Bible as “college age”.
No, it would be even younger. But such is the nonsense coming from a troll.
Oh don’t worry, there is plenty of frozen sperm out there, and plenty of guys who would donate to her needs…..with no conditions attached either…..well, until…..oh it has happened…..
A man was surprised decades after he donated to a sperm bank that he was being hit up with back child support for 18 years! And he HAD to pay!!!!
These women have it all covered. The way the culture is moving, women WILL find a way to make it legal that if man has a “date” with a girl that involved sex some sort of “common law bonding” will be construed as marriage which will require the man to pay alimony for a period of time…..but only of course if the man has a “good job” because if he’s an artist, a classic bad boy….that guy will get a pass because how can you get blood from a stone? Selectively enforced depending on her “mood” and what she “feels” at the moment. There will be no statute of limitations as well.
It’s coming! The “man” tax is slowly and quietly gaining ground here in California, and a decade ago, it was viewed “impossible!” and so was PC culture being mainstream……when I was in college in 1992 we all “laughed” at “that PC nonsense”
We’re not laughing now.
As a PUA/MGTOW, I really enjoy when you write about the end of courtship, Dalrock.
I consult your website Daily.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4835898/Woman-reveals-s-77-dates-TWO-years.html
@ – Jason (September 11, 2017 at 9:20 pm):
History is not a ratchet. And it doesn’t matter what “The Law” says, What matters is whether or not what “The Law” says, is enforced (e.g., The Swamp on the Potomac).
So, when all the male Bailiffs and Cops and Soldiers have had at least one good friend or biological brother/father/son/nephew screwed over by the Family Law courts, what sort of enthusiasm will they demonstrate, for enforcing “The Law”.
Things will fall apart, and The Centre cannot hold. We are headed for a societal collapse.
Something on the scale of 1861-1865, except without any gallantry or mercy. And with people who take electricity for granted, having to go to bed around sundown, because no one remembers how to make tallow candles. And diseases that our Fathers forgot about in their adulthood, because they were supposedly vanquished in their childhood, coming back: typhus and polio, cholera and bubonic plague. And no one calls 911 anymore, not because there’s no one there to answer, but because the cell phone towers can’t be maintained. And cities emptied, because cities have about four to seven days worth of food, and if the trucks stop coming, first there are riots and then there is an exodus.
And as with all system collapse, it happens in two ways: at first, slowly, and then suddenly.
I personally don’t believe we are in the End Times. I’m more pessimistic than that: we are going to wish it were the End Times, but it won’t be.
Antifa (for example) don’t seem to understand how desperately dependent they are on the continued existence of the very cops they try to ping off with their slingshots, etc. — in the absence of cops and courts, and in the belief in the same, people who outnumber them and who are being very, very patient — and who are trusting The Law to deal with them, would simply kill them all.
So, don’t be pessimistic about Totalitarianism. Be pessimistic about Chaos & Death.
Provided (I and others here argue), that you above all understand that this isn’t the Important Place, anyway, and in The End we all will face Judgment from a Just Judge.
Pax Christi Vobiscum
Anyway, on topic to the OP:
This is (in its own terribly sad way), deeply hysterical — in both senses of that word, and with an added touch of irony or two: to Dr Emily Grossman, it is inconceivable that Reproduction Itself won’t bend to the Female Imperative. Her solipsism is impregnable.
Turn, Hamster Wheel, Turn!
.
It’s easier to freeze your eggs than to change your personality.
Excellent start, speculativeramblings!
The welfare state freed women from needing Beta men to survive which, along with sexual liberation, changed marriage from husband & wife to Government & wife (& Alpha stud). You, the hardworking, honest everyman are now useless to women except as tax revenue. Our divorce policies reflect this: they maximize the transfer of wealth from men to women while putting control of the family (children) in the mother’s hands. Fatherlessness is the #1 risk factor for poverty and crime in children but women are solipsistic. They have to be taught to care about their own childrens’ welfare.
Solipsism makes women excellent consumers. They are very aware of their own needs (and wants) and are preoccupied with satisfying them. This makes women natural housewives–it’s their nesting instinct–but when she has money but no children to care for, she fills her home with iphones and cats and anything she can find to fill her emotional hole. Vanity and competition for the sexiest men drive her to purchase five million varieties of shampoo alone.
Women instinctively despise the Beta man because AF/BB; she needs him but doesn’t want him. The 80/20 rule, to her, means 20% of men are fun and 80% are slave labor to be exploited. Where is Ernie Engineer’s reward for working night shifts at the power plant? Even if Ernie himself doesn’t quit in disgust at low pay and nothing but porn, nobody will put in the effort for a Master’s in Electrical Engineering to replace him when he’s gone. Not when amateur surfing is an easier way to get laid.
So here you are. Not one of the 20%. Given low sexual status because you aren’t as sexy as Chad Thundercock and not as wealthy as a major government. You presumably want sex very badly. Something has to give. Either your morality or your libido, or you run the marriage gauntlet with no safety net, gambling with the lives of your future children as well as your own.
So long as women who hate 80% of all men and care more about themselves than their own kids are calling the shots, our society is damned… and so long as women get guaranteed resources from welfare and divorce courts, they have no incentive to improve their behavior.
AAAaarghhh!!! On a more simplistic line – I would shudder at the prospect of dealing with a teenager – whilst trying to examine retirement options. Picture it at the Saturday morning soccer match – ‘No!! I’m not his Granny dammit!’
Have your babies while ur young enough to keep up with them…and enjoy it. I was 33 when my first was born and now I am the ‘old man’ to my teen/early twenties mob (respectfully of course).
@Yac-Yac,
“…To Dr Emily Grossman, it is inconceivable…”
Heh. Also, I can’t help visualizing Ms. Grossman pronouncing that word just like Wallace Shawn.
speculativeramblings @ 3:55 pm:
“Can anyone give me the “beginner’s guide” to the redpill?”
Google ‘The Misandry Bubble’. It was meant to be an intro to the whole thing…
Mandy says:
September 11, 2017 at 3:05 pm
What a cold and clinical way to start a family.
I believe the first test tube baby was born in the UK to a married couple. John Entwistle of The Who wrote a song called 905 in 1978, pertaining to this. Song is quite prophetic.
Mandy says:
September 11, 2017 at 3:05 pm
What a cold and clinical way to start a family.
Forgot the link in the last post.
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/275260/
In reality, student loan debt is an extremely effective cleansing mechanism for the FI. A girl with too much debt is a slave to her debt until she is infertile, and misses the boat. If a whiteknight mangina/cuckservative marries her and pays down her debt, then he is impoverished too, which is a second benefit.
The level of economic ignorance possessed by feminists in particular (and women in general) is astounding. As we discussed before, economics is one of the two subjects (along with astronomy) where female knowledge and aptitude relative to men, is the lowest.
Feminists’ claim that misogyny is the reason for the student loan gender gap
In reality, student loan debt is an extremely effective cleansing mechanism for the FI. A girl with too much debt is a slave to her debt until she is infertile, and misses the boat. If a whiteknight mangina/cuckservative marries her and pays down her debt, then he is impoverished too, which is a second benefit.
The level of economic ignorance possessed by feminists in particular (and women in general) is astounding. As we discussed before, economics is one of the two subjects (along with astronomy) where female knowledge and aptitude relative to men, is the lowest.
@Opus
“”people like Mark won’t go near her. If he wont then why should we?
You have got that right!! I have had enough of She-Brews to last me 10 life times! Every single poster here should date a highly educated,ball busting,self righteous,femtard She-Brew….just for experience…..to realize that you will NEVER do that again and that was the absolute WORST species of woman that you have ever met!
@MGTOWHorseman
“”I know women can’t cook nowadays but really they need to realize the main ingredient is out of their control.””
She could always go down to the rail yard and find herself an Alpha Hobo.
@Anon
“”The level of economic ignorance possessed by feminists in particular (and women in general) is astounding.””
Astounding is an understatement! My oldest sister who is 49(3 years younger than myself) is a prime example.She lives in a $2 million condo and has no mortgage payment. Receives $12K/month income.$7000 from my father and $5000 from my mother(that my father never knew about).She is a “stay at home mom”???? She does not have her oldest son anymore.He is 17 and lives with his father(does not pay child support)….only the daughter,who is 15.She only pays gas,hydro,cable/internet and groceries……and she is always broke.She does not pay condo fees(Family owns the building) or gas for her $120K Mercedes(she charges this to the family office) and has no car payment either.She has $37K in credit card debt?……WTF????? The level of economic ignorance and entitlement is beyond astounding!!!!
Mark,
Holy crap! Why do your parents still pay for her??? I mean, to get $12K/month from her parents when she is 49??
Some issues:
1) There are way more than 5000 kids born so far in the U.S. via frozen ova/embryos. My wife and I have 5-YO fraternal twins that were from egg donors and a gestational surrogate. (The latter 3 were all age 23; I was age 49.)
2) 38 and she’s freezing eggs?!? That’s ludicrously late in life. (She’s neither hot enough, fabulously wealthy enough, or willing enough to dip really low in MMV for husband choosing to compensate.) If I were (back in my pre-father days) to seriously consider a woman for the deal she has to offer, the eggs would have to be from a woman WAY younger than her, under 30 at least, preferably under age 25 (with 18-21 being ideal IMO). That means NOT her ova, so why would I want the high risk of disrespect, marital enslavement, and total permanent deadbedding, inevitably followed by frivorced separation from my children (made permanent even into adulthood due to her poisoning their minds against me) and decades of impoverishment? That leaves out the very real risk of falsified sex abuse allegations or falsified charges of assault against her, putting me in pound-me-in-the-posterior prison.
No thanks. The best way for a white American man of even middle-middle-class means (who doesn’t permanently emigrate out of the West) who is called to fatherhood remains as I have previously suggested. He should NEVER marry, cohabitate with, or (outside of medically-done contractual gestational surrogacy) a Western woman. He should use stranger egg donor(s) and GSs to provide him with children, and hire the child care he needs. It’s 1000x easier to fire a nanny/governess that’s not working out than to expel a faithless wife and mother to his children from his home, finances, and children’s upbringing. Like cancer and pointless violent death, prevention is far preferable to any conceptualizable cure.
Missing word here:
“. He should NEVER marry, cohabitate with, or (outside of medically-done contractual gestational surrogacy) impregnate a Western woman.
Re marrying U.S. Jewish women (the ones that aren’t Orthodox Jews, at least):
Classic Glenn Sacks article on exactly this:
https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/1597433-why-i-didn-t-marry-a-jewish-woman
Gunner Q: Solipsism makes women excellent consumers. They are very aware of their own needs (and wants) and are preoccupied with satisfying them.
Some 20 years ago, I first noticed that women say need when they mean want. It was with a woman I was dating. We’d agreed informally to take turns deciding what to watch on TV, what tapes to rent. I liked horror and action flicks. She liked comedies and romcoms.
But every time she would say, “I need to watch a comedy tonight.” On the logic that she’d had a hard day, so it wasn’t a matter of choice or taking turns. It’s not what she wanted. She needed to see her film of choice. Was I so selfish as to impose my wants over her needs? Being a blue pill nice guy, I graciously relented every time.
This interchange of need for want has infected the entire language. I hear politicians, bureaucrats, everyone say need when want is more appropriate. Even cops say it: “I need for you to come out with your hands up.”
I understand why. A need implies there’s no debate, no room for argument. How can you argue with a person’s need. So now, even the flimsiest want, wish, and desire has been elevated to a need.
I think highly of The Misandry Bubble, but it is NOT a good choice for introducing a man to the Red Pill, particularly a young man. Much better IMO would be collecting links showing him these (with charts/graphs/images as appropriate):
1) The original explanation of Briffault’s Law.
2) Statistics on the likelihood of female-filed frivorce (>70%), cuckoldry (10-30% per child), rape accusations being fake (>50%), likelihood of a child being murdered by his mother (the most common person to do this), female fertility declines post-late-twenties (to the point of being negligible past early 30s for a man who would want multiple children with her).
3) The relative SMV graph through life for men and women.
4) A depiction of how assortative mating has given way to only men >6s getting squat for quality-looks women; this is the diagram showing matchups between columns of 1-10 men and 1-10 women.
5) The Teachman light-green vertical bar graph of women’s previous partner # vs. divorce risk, showing how a woman with 3 previous partners is a borderline choice at best, and at 5+ is a ludicrously bad risk.
6) Perhaps the paragraph or two out of the long “Tangent” essay depicting just how poorly and dishonestly women “do” logic and self-examination.
7) A graph showing how white Western women have been giving birth at far below replacement rate since ~1972.
8) The most brutally direct statistical listing findable of just how badly children turn out when they grow up fatherless (7x more likely to end up in prison, even 40% more likely to turn out homosexual for God’s sake, etc.).
9) Follow #8 up with something on the Tender Years’ policy in fecund marriages experimenting with wrongly giving divorced mothers custody of weaned children.
10) A page from Stephanie Guttman’s or Brian Mitchell’s books exhaustively showing how women do NOT belong in the combat (e.g., real) military, just on the vastly different physical capabilties alone.
11) Lastly, show a graph of how much more socialist the U.S. became when women (unearned, as they can never rightfully earn it by military service or being drafted into same) were handed the franchise.
Those should do….
Red Pill Latecomer says:
September 12, 2017 at 1:42 am
“Some 20 years ago, I first noticed that women say need when they mean want.
This interchange of need for want has infected the entire language. I hear politicians, bureaucrats, everyone say need when want is more appropriate. Even cops say it: “I need for you to come out with your hands up.”
I understand why. A need implies there’s no debate, no room for argument. How can you argue with a person’s need. So now, even the flimsiest want, wish, and desire has been elevated to a need.”
My rejoinder to people that try to pull that on me is to remind them “Not all needs get met, immediately or ever”.
Jack Russell-
I never realized the context of the song 905 was test tube babies. The lyrics seem to reflect the very cynical environmentalist-overpopulation-atheist-people basically suck views of 70s era enlightened types like Pete Townsend.
And everything I know is what I need to know
And everything I do’s been done before
Every sentence in my head
Someone else has said
At each end of my life is an open door
… is the kind of stuff late baby boomers would say “whoa dude. Deep. Its like, there’s no point n stuff, man” to.
And I think “each end” is a nod to Townsends super cool fascination with eastern religion.
@DrTorch
Prove it. Like I said, you’re just attributing your own unsupported opinions as “God said.”
I’ve heard preachers go on and on about how Timothy was about 30 years old when Paul called him young. I don’t know where they got that from, but it’s not totally incredible.
First I’m a Christian feminist, now I’m a troll. Why don’t you just admit I’m right. It might make you feel better to stop being such an arrogant crank. Or you’re welcome to actually prove me wrong when i say I don’t think there’s any scriptural basis for being “called to marry”.
I was genuinely interested in what BillyS would come up with. (And he hasn’t provided anything substantial yet.) I’m not sure why it triggered you so badly, but like I said, it’s a little weird you believe you have the authority to order someone else’s daughter around when she has clear biblical grounds to behave in a manner you disagree with.
It’s easier to pass the blame than look at your own heart.
I consult your website Daily.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4835898/Woman-reveals-s-77-dates-TWO-years.html
Heh.
I’d have to say “more entitled than most”, but, hey, it’s her life. I’m sure the dozens of guys who are sleeping with her don’t mind much at all, really, while she seems truly oblivious to the fact that any guy who actually met her criteria isn’t going to be down with marrying a woman who has the history she does, even leaving aside the spreadsheet.
@American
Looks like it worked. Either that or I approved it and don’t recall.
Wasn’t there a story where a man did a spreadsheet on the dates he had with women and was pretty much vilified for it…or at least called a creep?
I dunno, but there was a husband who created rejections.xls – and women everywhere were mortified.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/relationships/10979082/Frustrated-husband-creates-spreadsheet-of-wifes-excuses-for-not-having-sex-with-him.html
squid_hunt I wouldn’t mind reading from a Bible version that I can understand. I don’t live in the 1600s and neither did the disciples/apostles.
If you have a learning disability, I’m sincerely sorry. Otherwise, your comment comes across as a pointless, snide non-sequitur. Would you like to address the actual discussion?
Squid,
Note that the idea is a man is expected to leave his father and mother, as the norm. Special cases for full time devotion to God’s ministry exist, but nothing in the text indicates a man or woman should seek a life of self pleasure.
Though it is nice how this was spun to be about men marrying when I was only speaking of women in my replies here. I know the usual responders like FH will oppose it and I have no desire to debate the same thing.
This comes down to following first principles. Jesus also said:
This is not a positive “thou shalt marry” command, but it is an expectation that this is the standard.
Note that only 3 classes of eunichs:
– Born eunich
– Made eunich by men
– Eunich for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven
None of this is directly “doing your own thing” which is very common in women today and is more and more common among men. Anyone who would argue that women should intentionally pursue this is not really thinking it through. A good number of women who do that get baby rabies at around 30 and seek out a someone to use. That is not a good outcome and any encouragement of that is misguided.
I do wonder if women who rode the carousel for even a few years should intentionally avoid marriage, having been made “eunichs by men.” (Not blaming men, but rather noting it was acting like modern mankind that was the flaw.
Going back to the first principle:
This shows us that it was not good for man to be alone in a perfect environment. How can it be better now? It may be required in a practical manner, but that doesn’t make it better.
It is just like saying that it is best for everyone to eat a healthy diet, even though some will not be able to do so, or the cost of doing so is too high. The inability of some to do it does not negate the core principle that it is good to eat a healthy diet.
Show me the Scriptures that explicitly advocate staying single for those without a ministry call to do that. I am sure you cannot.
Then explain how it is better for our society that females grow up expecting to not do that in most cases.
Someone else wrote:
(After talking about misapplying Scripture from someone who has not posted a single verse here that I can recall.)
Jesus never programmed a computer either, so I guess that is out of the window. And He never replied to a blog site or posted to a blog, so Dalrock better find something better to do with his time!
====
BTW, whoever thought I was saying marrying in college is good did not read what I wrote. I believe women should marry early and I think most of the modern college experience is an expensive waste of time for all involved, even most men. The same goal can be achieved much less expensively. Marrying in college would be better than marrying closer to 30 though, assuming a normal high school to college progression, not other college avenues.
Prove it. Like I said, you’re just attributing your own unsupported opinions as “God said.”
You say a lot of things. They just happen to be untrue. That’s why I quote scripture, and you just troll. Prove it? Ok
http://www.gospelgazette.com/gazette/2005/may/page20.htm
I’ve heard preachers go on and on about how Timothy was about 30 years old when Paul called him young. I don’t know where they got that from, but it’s not totally incredible.
Yeah it is actually. I’ve heard preachers say lots of incorrect/stupid things. But I’ve learned discernment.
Why don’t you just admit I’m right.
Because you aren’t. And you can’t even use a question mark correctly. But more to the point, it’s clear the only way you’re ever “right” is when you declare it so, b/c you can’t provide evidence for your inane comments. But that is the way of the troll.
It might make you feel better to stop being such an arrogant crank.
That’s what it’s like being right. What’s it like to be wrong?
YACYAC,
A side note, but it is ironic that my ex-wife firmly believes we are in the End Times, yet was willing to divorce me. She clearly had some disconnect, as many do today. Judgment for her foolishness will come soon if she is right. Though the issue there is that she doesn’t believe she did anything worthy of judgment, even though it violates an express command of Jesus. (That is a whole other topic.)
I do agree that things will seem quite steady until they quickly break down. I have no idea when it will come, but it will be worse the longer it is delayed, unfortunately. We need the fire to clean out all the scrub, but it will be very painful when it happens.
Boxer and Earl-
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Spreadsheet boy, the guy who brought me to Dalrock. Doesn’t seem that long ago, but was.
Mark,
Can your parents send me some money? I wouldn’t complain about being broke all the time!
Squid,
Context is important here. That is young for the ministry. Not young for every area of life. I believe Jewish males didn’t start their full ministry until 30, which would fit things if so. That is no indication that 30 should be the target marriage age.
What should a man do from 16 to 30 about the drive to have sex? Paul said to marry to satisfy that if it could not be controlled otherwise (the case with most young men, however many will claim otherwise).
At least part of that is posted above.
squid_hunt
It has nothing to do with a learning disability. We live in 2017 not 1611.
@BillyS
Look, playing gotcha is pretty lame. Quit trying to attribute things to me that I’m not saying. I’ve been very clear that most people should marry because they can’t handle it due to sin. My only point is there’s no call, no requirement, no biblical commandment to marry and I Corinthians 7 is clear about that. I’m not advocating women should wait until they’re 45. I’m not saying everyone should wait until they’re established and have their careers going. I’m saying it’s up to them, but they’re required by God to live righteous in the meantime.
It’s also gross to make that decision and then expect men or God to provide you with a husband when you get bored being single. I also think it’s disturbing women would reassure women they can have it all. It’s a crass bid for money by telling women what they want to hear. But you can’t con an honest man, so women that buy into that are doing so willingly. Horrible as it is, they’ve earned their reward. I don’t want to hear their bellyaching.
@DrTorch
Your link literally quotes zero scripture. It doesn’t even reference any scripture.It’s describing a cultural tradition for which there are almost no examples in scripture. No one goes and gets married at 14 in the Bible. They’re all grown, established men, with wives that are of indeterminate age. Do you understand the difference between a tradition and a biblical commandment? You’re hopeless.
So, no. You have nothing to add.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4835898/Woman-reveals-s-77-dates-TWO-years.html
An exasperated Anna says: ‘I went on my 77th date on Saturday, I think it’s because I’m too picky, it’s always me that does not want a second date and a lot of them think there is something wrong with me.
And yet…
‘But when I mentioned it on TV and I had so many exes texting me and asking for their score.’
In a way she’s correct about these men, worried about the score they got from a woman that rejected them, and that they already suspected had something wrong with her.
They all kind of deserve each other.
Note to self: Don’t be that guy.
Squid,
Then you are a troll. I answered the best I could and you just disregarded it all by claiming you were saying something different than what you wrote. Go for it then.
I gave the evidence that it is an underlying principle and didn’t need a command. Bowel movements don’t have a command either, but I think expecting people to not pee on the seat is fully reasonably and consistent with other Scriptures, even though I can’t quote a specific verse saying that.
And just where did I do that? You throw around accusations pretty freely.
You also provide no Scripture yourself yet command others to do so. Feel free to disagree with what I wrote and reject the Scriptures completely or provide Scriptural support for your position. Otherwise you are arguing just like a modern SJW making others jump through hoops while you contribute nothing of substance and change your positions freely.
I would at least agree with squid about jameswatchman.
I find the NKJV readable. Even the New Living Translation or The Message Bibles have value, though their doctrine can be a bit off at places. Griping about KJV-only is just trying to say “lets you and him fight” while not being involved.
The verses I quoted from the KJV were quite easy to understand. Anyone who can’t understand those probably shouldn’t be participating in a discussion forum.
Lost Patrol,
She would be in my acceptable looks range, but it is soft factors like these that make it likely I will be single the rest of my life.
Note to Gunner Q:
I may borrow some of your ideas if I ever write the book I am thinking of. Those seem like decent points.
“Do these women enjoy or tolerate sex?
I don’t see any fun in this. Sex is suppose to be pleasurable but I guess there is no pleasure in it for these women.”
Hey, they’re Feminists.
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@BillyS
You need to slow down, take a deep breath and go back and read what I wrote. You’re misreading me and misattributing me.
I agreed with you that most people should marry. But when people thump their chest and say, “Thus sayeth the Lord!” when he hasn’t said that and there’s verifiable evidence in scripture that he thinks otherwise (Like I Corinthians 7) I have to take issue. I don’t care how you live your life or raise your family. I have three daughters and I’m raising my children with the intention of them marrying early. I do think there’s practical value in it, I just don’t agree that there’s a biblical command to do so.
Do I think most people will get in trouble trying to live single? Absolutely. I think the Bible supports that position. But there’s no call to marry in the Bible. It doesn’t exist. Your verse in Matthew is the closest and it says in there that you can make yourself a eunuch for the Kingdom of Heaven’s sake. (Although, again, it doesn’t go into much detail on what that means, the interpretations are pretty wide open.)
As I keep providing you with I Corinthians 7, I don’t understand what you’re talking about I have no scripture to support my position. Here it is again:
My Quick Expository on I Corinthians 7
Not everything is black and white in scripture. Running around policing everyone else’s lifestyle is not the point of the New Testament.
What the Bible does say is:
1. If you want to marry, get married.
2. If you don’t want to get married, don’t get married, but you have to act in a chaste manner.
Conflating bowel movements with an obvious decision to get married or not to get married shall be dismissed with the same casual disregard of a shit stained piece toilet paper. Make a better comparison. There is no command to be single or to be married. There is only a choice, to be made by the person themselves.
Paul advises that if you can control your sexual lusts, it is better to not marry and serve God. If you cannot, he advises you to get married. Still, the person has to make the choice themselves. It’s their calling and not yours.
Square this circle.
It is good that a man have no sexual relations with a woman. No ‘outside of marriage’ or ‘within marriage’ there, it is a direct statement saying that not having sexual relations with a woman is a good thing. No sex = good.
It then goes on to explain that sole reason for marriage is the temptation to sexual immorality.
It is good for a man to remain single if he can control himself. That’s all.
The reason why these older women need to convince the younger ones to follow their path is to eliminate the competition.
Any man would choose the 25 year old who’s ready to have babies over the 40 year old who finally decided the time was right.
They need to clear out those young women from the field by convincing them to wait. It’s their only chance.
After Eve took a bite of the apple, her first instinct was to get someone else to do it too.
Nothing has changed.
Again if you read the story of the woman who went on the large number of dates…you understand why ‘game’ as a way to pick up is pretty much a sham. Trying to jump through hoops to produce the right feeling in a woman isn’t going to work if she decides she didn’t have the ‘right’ feel to begin with. In that scenerio you either have to turn pick up into a full time job to get something like a 3% ‘success’ rate…or you just get fed up with how modern women determine the value of a man.
So you are telling me out of 77 men…they were all just clueless about women and had no game? Or she was just going off her feelings the whole time and didn’t have the correct one so she rejected them all despite the fact some of them might have been a good match. This is why marriage is being delayed because women focus too much on their own feelings instead of focusing on the attributes the man has.
Earl said,
Again if you read the story of the woman who went on the large number of dates…you understand why ‘game’ as a way to pick up is pretty much a sham. Trying to jump through hoops to produce the right feeling in a woman isn’t going to work if she decides she didn’t have the ‘right’ feel to begin with.
This passage means you still don’t understand what Game is (and at this point, probably never will).
It is not about brute-force plowing with a woman who doesn’t like you to begin with (although that has worked in a some cases).
So you are telling me out of 77 men…they were all just clueless about women and had no game?
The ones that had sex with her probably did have Game. See, again you fail to distinguish between the SMP and MMP.
Stats-wise, Krauser publishes his daygame stats for a given calendar year (see his website).
1000 approaches.
60 first dates.
27 of those first dates led to eventual sex.
Not bad for a calendar year. Of those 1000 approaches, ones that went nowhere took up only 10 seconds of time. Krauser is shortish, bald, and not classically good-looking.
And the reason why marriage rates are going down is because a lot of people don’t want to get married (even though they may say they want to) and also don’t act in a chaste manner. Seperating sex from marriage has cheapened sex and degraded the attitude towards marriage.
Do you not read how I keep saying it’s all about her feelings? I probably understand the sham of Game better than you do.
SMV and MMV are both based on one thing when it comes to women…their feelings.
@Earl
Aren’t you single? You don’t want to get married? You don’t act in a chaste manner?
I agree with you that separating sex from marriage cheapened sex and degraded attitudes toward marriage. I also think it was demonstrably deliberate.
But.
Statistics don’t define the individual. And cultural trends are irrelevant to biblical teachings. And biblical teachings are mostly ignored by lost people. Sinners are going to sin. That’s what they do.
Earl,
Do you not read how I keep saying it’s all about her feelings? I probably understand the sham of Game better than you do.
What YOU don’t understand is that part of Game is about guiding her feelings in the direction that you want them to go. If you haven’t grasped this, you have still at square one (or worse).
And now, you are claiming to be an expert with Game, despite your admission of getting nowhere with women. That is the classic symptom of a game-denialist nut – claim that Game is wrong about everything, despite non-existent success of your own.
Biblical teachings are also being ignored by a lot of Christians because a lot of them are following the demonstrably deliberate secular route. We are all sinners…however it’s amazing how much Christians (churchians) are twisting Scripture to put the zeitgeist into it.
Until there is ‘last-minute resistence’…or she changes her mind. The menstural cycle is often more influential on a woman’s feelings than a man’s game.
What you haven’t grasped is that women have free will and often are more focused on what their feelings are doing than a man’s game. When they were give that much power, that was the predictable result.
You’re right. People follow their culture. We’re all creatures of our culture. But the point is for Christians to glorify God. Culture isn’t an excuse to ignore Bible teachings but culture also doesn’t change the standard.
Earl’s weak bleats :
Until there is ‘last-minute resistence’…or she changes her mind. The menstural cycle is often more influential on a woman’s feelings than a man’s game.
Which is why a man with Game has several women in the roster at once. Duh!
What you haven’t grasped is that women have free will and often are more focused on what their feelings are doing than a man’s game
So you are doubling down on your ignorance, and adding a weak little power trip in there too.
Game enables a man to steer a woman’s feelings. If a particular woman is too much work at that particular time, he has a deep roster of others to choose from, and can meet new women at will. That is why Krauser did 1000 daytime approaches in a calendar year, to get 60 first dates, but converted 27 of those 60 (45%) to sex.
Again, you are completely making all the textbook failures of a nascent Game denialist nut. Presuming to declare truths despite your own utter lack of success/experience is the worst among these traits. An inability to present an alternate model of attraction is the second worst. Displaying the huge gaps in your knowledge rather than trying to fix them, is the path to remaining very unfulfilled in life.
There are plenty of men who are not tall, rich, or classically good looking who still bed a lot of hot women. You would have to explain why, if it is not via Game (natural or learned).
Sadly, you are very close to the ‘lost cause’ threshold, at this point.
Nah…we just don’t see eye to eye. Your ultimate goal in life is sex, mine is striving to live a Christ-centered life. The two are different masters.
mine is striving to live a Christ-centered life.
A truly pious life is one where you have a zen-like serenity. Not one where you are frustrated about a lack of results with women.
Hence why I said ‘striving’.
I shouldn’t be so frustrated that women often follow their feelings instead of God and men follow women instead of God…it was outline by Adam and Eve, but it is a nasty consequence of the fall.
If I’m to believe a man, who’s time is heavily dedicated to Game, is worldly wise, I’m also assuming he’s quite wealthy. Otherwise he’s foolishly wasting his valuable Time.
I’m attractive enough to bed a lot of women using moderate amounts of game. That would not be a good use of my time. Any truly wise man, believer or non-believer can count the cost of life. Time is money! Mystery said it takes him 7 hours to make a successful transition from initial eye contact to Sex. This does not count the hours and hours wasted on women who flake. What is his time worth an hour if he wasn’t selling game to men but had a business or a job?
Attractive escorts on Back Page or elsewhere go round-the -world for $200 the first time (from what I’m told by John..). If you want a weekly, these ladies are highly negotiable. You can get two or three going for $300 – $400 a week and waste NO TIME! Again time is money. But muh ego? Money is better for the ego and it attracts sluts like flies.
Focusing on money has enabled me to build wealth for an early retirement. Setting aside the moral questions. What sense would it have made to waste my time chasing sluts when time is expensive and whores are cheap? I’ve never been with a whore but it makes more $ense than gaming sluts.
Game, PUA, fools gold.
I endorse basic Game, otherwise known as basic Manhood, in maintaining a relationship or marriage. Managing a woman’s emotions primarily by being indifferent to them while staying on point as the dominant leader.
Slut gamming however is as useless as video gamming. Hope you can afford to waste your time/money.
How can you argue with a person’s need. So now, even the flimsiest want, wish, and desire has been elevated to a need.
Easy. You briefly (in three sentences or less) explain the difference between wanting and needing, then tell them that their expression is a want, which, being the case, you are under no obligation to satisfy, now or ever.
That’s a good point. God gave husbands the authority in marriage…and a wife’s feelings don’t (or shouldn’t) change that. Staying on point is staying in the truth.
Squid,
That is not what you said. You disputed my claim, asserting that nothing in the Scriptures made that command.
Where did I say that? Can you provide a quote?
You misused that Scripture. That spoke of full time dedication to the work of the Lord, not a general skipping of marriage for personal benefit. Though the starting context of my statements was women skipping marriage until later in life.
You keep saying the same thing. Do you hope that makes it true?
You are taking it out of context and ignoring the rest of the Scriptures and other replies here. Singleness is for a certain purpose and is a calling, not a desirable temporary state.
I am not going to waste time arguing with FH, though I think that was squid’s real purpose in twisting what I wrote. FH and I will continue to disagree.
BillyS @ 9:37 am:
“I may borrow some of your ideas if I ever write the book I am thinking of.”
Feel free. I’m not here for fame or fortune.
Regarding some comments via marriage for the sake of marriage not being a good option, let me respectfully disagree. Seeking out marriage is an import active priority if you ever want to be married. Hoping it just happens is like hoping my career just takes off, I just get through undergrad with good grades, I just happen to finish that home repair. Marriage is important for the majority of Christians and women and men should be taught it is an active process. Of course with the usual understood caveats about marriage 2.0 for men.
Boxer (Secret King of All Gamma Males) says:
September 12, 2017 at 8:22 am
“… there was a husband who created rejections.xls – and women everywhere were mortified.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/relationships/10979082/Frustrated-husband-creates-spreadsheet-of-wifes-excuses-for-not-having-sex-with-him.html
I think he would have done well to have told her “I’m having sex next week. Who do you think I should have it with?”. If her answer was in essence anything other than “With ME, of course!”, he could have very reasonably just not brought up the subject again, looked elsewhere for a wife in that core area, and just smiled mysteriously or shrugged when (not if) she asked about it in the future. Hey, SHE broke up with HIM when she said “No” to him in general. No one says a person should be “faithful” to a BF/GF that broke up with them long ago; why would a deadbedding disloyal b***h of a “wife” (who’s already left him in the most fundamental way) get any more of a pass?
Oh, and for those posters still advocating seeking marriage today in America; do you mind telling me where (outside of Amish/Muslim/orthodox Jewish communities or emigrating) such a thing can be found (and kept)? Any comparison between what the Bible says is “marriage” and what passes for it today in the U.S. quickly leads to the permanent conclusion that the latter needs a different name.
Unfortunately Dalrock, this idea – that women can freeze their eggs and establish their careers – is catching on. It’s catching on in scientific circles where women are supposedly (!!!) selected to be smarter.
A young woman science graduate in her early 20s said to me, “Wouldn’t it be right for the government to subsidize freezing of eggs, so that women like us don’t get children with birth defects?”
After asking myself if she was for real, I asked her, ”Would it not be better for everyone of we had a re-think about women’s roles in the workforce, and that they should be having children when their bodies – biologically, are best suited to actually having children?”
She thought about it for a few moments and said, “But that means I would have to get married sooner. I’d have to look after children now. I would be dependent on a husband looking after me. I would have to…”
I have paraphrased her exact words, but you get the gist. Here lies the problem: Feminism has told women they can have it all and do it all, and they can’t. They, like us, have to make choices. So, what is important is,
”What choice is the best choice for everyone?”
Well played. 🙂
@Anon
“”Holy crap! Why do your parents still pay for her??? I mean, to get $12K/month from her parents when she is 49??””
She has a Masters Degree in Education.She used to be a teacher.My parents can easily afford it and the most important thing?…….It keeps her out of Family business!
Did Paul say that it is good not to have sexual relations with a woman, yes or no?
For those of us not in these tight-knit communities, marriage is dead. They really need to change their focus to creating more of those communities instead of arguing the dead-end point of ‘God demands you get married’ even though no Biblical marriage exists much outside those very same communities.
Listen here, I have no calling, thus according to Billy, I have to get married. Well, just who am I meant to marry? Some single mother, some career gal slut? Just who am I meant to risk my very life on to get married to? Some young virgin girl who will submit to me? Oh…. like that’s a reality, hey? It won’t happen so it’s best for me to not get married and learn to control my sexual lusts, that’s without any calling from God to be a single man. It’s just a common sense approach to a shit situation.
The sooner more of the pious gents here get the move on creating their own communities of like minded individuals, the sooner their children will have options in the future. Do you not think it more appropriate to God’s will to fix marriage or create a place marriage functions to the degree Paul states before you bemoan those men choosing not to get married due to their absolute lack of any reasonable choices?
Get a move on instead of moaning and telling men to ‘man up’ and get married. Marriage is a terrible deal for the average man and better left alone for his own sake.
@BillyS
I disputed your claim that it’s a command. You are correct. It’s not a command. In fact, it’s in black and white that you don’t have to marry. That doesn’t mean most people shouldn’t marry for the reasons given in I Corinthians 7. There’s no conflict. You’re just trying to weasel out of being wrong.
You just above stated that it was a command to marry. It’s not. So that would be stating “Thus sayeth the Lord!” when God did not say thus. I quoted it and everything.
This is a blatant lie. I never even implied to skip marriage for personal benefit. I said you are still required to live for God. You’re making stuff up now. Do you have autism or are you just totally incapable of nuance?
Again. There’s no calling to marry or stay single for any individual. Just like the sabbath, marriage was created for man, not the other way around. If someone is living and serving God righteously, marriage is not an obligation. The Bible states that if you can’t do that, go get a wife and continue to live holy. That’s what the Bible says.
You can take your cultural conservatism and pack it. Worrying about what lost people do with marriage has nothing to do what the Bible actually teaches as commandment. As has been pointed out (and which you apparently deliberately misunderstood) Jesus never married. If it’s a commandment for all men to marry and marry young and Jesus did not marry, then Jesus sinned. Otherwise, it’s clearly not a commandment to marry.
@feministhater
Mark says
[My sister] has a Masters Degree in Education.She used to be a teacher.My parents can easily afford it and the most important thing?…….It keeps her out of Family business!
Wouldn’t having a Master’s in “Education” be equivalent to having a forehead stamp reading “Oxygen Thief” (or “Loser”) and thus automatically exclude one from participation in ANY gainful endeavor?
I just have to assume that your parents love your sister enough that they’re concerned about what life in the real world will do to her if she’s left in it on her own and that the subsidy is to protect her from it. Perfectly understandable from a parental viewpoint, if ultimately misguided.
You want a spouse? Be a good Christian. Serve God in the church. Someone will come along. Or not.
Very true.
We’ve “complicated” marriage today by NOT serving God, but ourselves and our own selfish, worldly desires. This is why Christian marriage (or what passes for it) is in as wretched a condition as its secular counterpart. When you walk into any random church on Sunday morning and, after spending no more than an hour there, realize that there is ZE-RO difference in demeanor or character between the congregation and the contents of the office or the local sports bar, it becomes readily apparent why the problems of the World prevail in these people’s lives to the same extent that they do in the lives of non-believers. If the majority of the contents of the sanctuary REALLY took their faith as seriously as they (unconvincingly) pretend to, the “Christian Marriage Therapy” con industry wouldn’t exist at all.
Thank you. My initial comment was that if you want a spouse to go to work in the church and as you work toward your ministries, whatever they are, the herd will thin out and at some point there will be two people that very clearly have a ministry and want to serve God and then it becomes really obvious. If you want to get married.
This obsession with marriage ain’t helpin’ anyone. If you want to make a woman neurotic and cause her to crack, make her constantly think she’s in danger. (In this case, in danger of losing her marriage.) Con industry is a good term for this garbage. If you’re a good, faithful Christian, marriage isn’t that hard. The principles that God wants to develop in you will make the stresses of marriage seem like a non-issue.
And that’s not to say that I have the marriage thing figured out. The principles will still work. Neither did I intend to imply that it’s a guarantee of a successful marriage. You can’t make the other person serve and love God. You can only truly control yourself.
Really the obsession with sex, romantic love, happily ever after marriage scenarios, and Disney princess fairy tales isn’t helping anyone. Which is why I agree serving God is a much better route to find a spouse…and if you don’t it’s still rewarding because you are serving God.
Combining thoughts in this thread with the sluice box are interesting. There is a simultaneous loathing of divorce, which is why many don’t get married, along with a desire to see the guy who wifes up the sluice box chick to get frivorced. An odd study in contrasts.
Luke on spreadsheet guy
I think he would have done well to have told her “I’m having sex next week. Who do you think I should have it with?”.
That would be a form of Dread Game. Married men need Game. This man was seriously Betaized, in the Average Frustrated Chump (AFC) mode as far as I can tell.
Oh, and for those posters still advocating seeking marriage today in America; do you mind telling me where (outside of Amish/Muslim/orthodox Jewish communities or emigrating) such a thing can be found (and kept)? Any comparison between what the Bible says is “marriage” and what passes for it today in the U.S. quickly leads to the permanent conclusion that the latter needs a different name.
That’s been a big topic of discussion here for years. You might search the site for all the articles tagged “marriage” and especially look for Dalrock’s two articles on “interviewing a prospective wife”. It is important to vet not just the woman but her family and social circle. You also could look at the blogs of Deep Strength and Donal Graeme for a religious perspective, and Rollo Tomassi for a more secular one. To be married now is an intentional, deliberate process. It is counter cultural, so a subculture is needed.
I don’t really see it as desire…per se. It’s more of a warning that she’s the type of woman who is the high risk frivorce camp for any guy that marries her.
Squid,
Please quote that as I already requested. My intent was to state that it was the expected ideal. Not a direct command, but it is stupid to wait if you do not have the direct calling Paul had. That was the context of Paul’s “out” which you still avoid addressing. He wasn’t arguing for singleness for personal pursuits, especially not “for a season” as many preach today (and you imply). He was arguing for singleness to do full-time ministry (or to work toward that as any work he did was to support his ministry, not his hobbies).
I can’t find the post now, but I thought it was you who was arguing that the woman should just focus on “doing God’s will” (which is an excuse to do their own in the eyes of most) and live with a husband whenever he came (if he ever came, though that was implied). Did someone else argue to wait until else was paired off to find the one that was left? I believe that was the context of my initial replies. Waiting is only wise in a very narrow sense. Much “ministry” is not really that, even if a woman thinks it is. Delaying marriage for that would not help anyone.
That is false, as I noted. God said it was not good for a man to be alone and made a woman for him. That is the baseline principle. Exceptions, such as Paul, exist, but they are just that, exceptions. Review the Scriptures I already posted.
I am a Biblical civilizationalist and proud of that. I am not a conservative by any means now. Nice to falsely label and then oppose me, but I will stay on God’s principles. You can rage against the way He set things up all you want. You can also put words in my mouth, but that won’t make them true. You have yet to make your point with either logic or Scripture. Pulling one verse out of context does not make a case.
This is like saying “You want a job? Be a good Christian. Serve God in the church. A job will come along. Or not.”
That is dumb advice. You should certainly do God’s work all you can, but you should also do all you can to both prepare yourself for a job and to find appropriate jobs. God is not limited to your efforts, but He is highly unlikely to drop a job in your lap.
Young women should likewise focus on preparing themselves for marriage and taking reasonable steps to make their desire to be married known. They should not delay it for earthly pursuits (even if those sound “holy”) and close their eyes to the opportunities God brings them into.
Are you really arguing young women should ignore self preparation for being a wife and communicating their desire for such?
Who is obsessing with marriage? I haven’t seen it. I may note that it is God’s baseline plan and that we are far from it, but I have not seen that in the church or the world in my 40+ years as a Christian.
feeriker,
I have never been in the bar sense so I could be off, but I expect I would make more social connections at a bar than I do at a church. Tragic indictment against modern churches in my view. (Not your point, but something I have seen for a while.)
Churches rarely provide a godly environment to connect with people, so it is no wonder some seek that out in bars.
AR,
Very good point. Anyone approaching marriage today needs to think about far more than most realize. They also need to pay close attention to any red flags ahead of time, likely cutting things off if those rise up. Some of us need to inform younger men about those red flags so they can look for them. That won’t prevent risk, but it will certainly lower it.
Cane Caldo sez:
Where is this command that each man marry? Chapter and verse, please.
then Billy S. sez:
God said it wasn’t good for man to be alone. That isn’t the same thing as “thou shalt be married.” You’re condemning generations of Christian monks and priests with this poppycock.
I’ve been following this for a while. Bashing squiddy, calling him names, and repeating your general claim without a source doesn’t make your argument for you. You guys sound an awful lot like Artisanal Toad. (I’ll learn next that the commandment can only be intuited by believers, and that Boxer is too stupid/worldly/sinful to get the real meanings of the words of the text, which are only available to saintly geniuses like you two.)
Regards,
Boxer
Thank you, Boxer. You would think this would be an open and shut case. If there was an actual, literal commandment versus vague generalized principles. I’ve not seen many exceptions to commandments in the Bible, either. That’s a new one on me.
It’s not there. There are commands on what you are supposed to do when you get married…and what you are supposed to do if you are not married (the common theme for both is sexual morality)…but there is no command that states you are to get married.
BillyS wrote:
Someone else wrote:
Let me ask you men who think a man is required to marry .. Did OUR LORD and Savior the Christ Jesus marry?
(After talking about misapplying Scripture from someone who has not posted a single verse here that I can recall.)
Jesus never programmed a computer either, so I guess that is out of the window. And He never replied to a blog site or posted to a blog, so Dalrock better find something better to do with his time!
That would be me asking ole BillyS .. here .. https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/09/11/wendy-griffiths-secular-doppelganger/#comment-245235
Let me say this slowly because you’re not very bright BillyS .. YOU ARE AN IDIOT.
Honeycomb, take a deep breath. Step away from the keyboard for a minute. You seem to be pretty new around here, we all cut each of our brothers some slack here, (the word I’m looking for is compassion). Lots of us have been through the meat grinder of life, and BillyS is no different. BillyS ‘just’ went through a frivorce, after close to 20yrs of marriage. He is no idiot, fool, or any other insult you can toss his way, he’s just a fallen man hurt and searching for truth just like the rest of us. He’s just coming at it from a different perspective from you.
BillyS, brother, I know your are lonely.
But you really need to slow down, and get yourself centered, we can all see an almost ‘obsession’ (though that’s not really a good word) that you have looking to get back into the harness of marriage again. You seem to be blind to it as well.
Figure yourself out and what you want to do with the rest of your life, set up a new mission, (don’t let it be marriage or a woman). Have purpose, and glorify God doing it. If it is God’s will that you be married again it will be very clear, this woman will want to help you with your mission (i.e. a true helpmeet).
White Guy ..
He’s just coming at it from a different perspective from you.
Not new .. and obivously you haven’t followed this thread very closely. So back up & read the entire thread. And the one before.
BillyS will not be allowed to use the computer defense. Christ is OUR example .. he did not marry .. the conversation has nothing to do with computers.
He’s an IDIOT.
With respect to vocations:
There is no universal call to marriage. There is however a universal calling to the following of the evangelical counsels of obedience, chastity, and poverty (Matthew 19: 3-12, 16-21). Some are called to follow this in the more explicit fashion that Christ followed them, some to follow them more implicitly in vocations of marriage or (for Catholics) the diocesan priesthood.
Earl-
No argument there, she would be a bad bet for anyone to marry. But read the other thread, more than one wants a guy to marry her and then get divorced. That would be a pointless exercise, and there’s no need to wish evil on a fellow man.
I have never been in the bar sense so I could be off, but I expect I would make more social connections at a bar than I do at a church. Tragic indictment against modern churches in my view. (Not your point, but something I have seen for a while.)
Churches rarely provide a godly environment to connect with people, so it is no wonder some seek that out in bars.
One hundred percent correct. If the churchian majority cared, or was even aware of this problem, they’d be furiously attempting to get their act together.
Dear Fellas:
Billy is not an idiot. He’s reading the text through the lens of ideology…
https://v5k2c2.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/marry-and-reproduce/
Best,
Boxer
White Guy says ..
.. (the word I’m looking for is compassion). Lots of us have been through the meat grinder of life, and BillyS is no different. BillyS ‘just’ went through a frivorce, after close to 20yrs of marriage. He is no idiot, fool, or any other insult you can toss his way, he’s just a fallen man hurt and searching for truth just like the rest of us.
Then he should ..
a) Ask questions
b) Get answers before acting like an expert
c) Not tell other men to submit to a woman until he can figure out how to sucessfully negoiate those channels un-scathed .. which he didn’t (not that is impossible .. just highly unlikely he’ll .. like us .. ever figure it out (i.e. the marriage to a woman problem)
d) Stop acting like an idiot
When gets ALL of that contained .. then maybe he can start talking about scripture regarding marriage .. which he is still wrong.
Any man looking for answer’s and doesn’t listen is a fool / idiot.
Never mind that they won’t have the energy to raise their children because they are old. Raising kids, especially the first time, is a young person’s game.
Dear honeycomb:
You and squiddy already won the argument. Arguments aren’t won by insults (though, this being the internet, insults are usually a fun part of arguments). You guys won the argument just by asking for a source. It was that easy. Namecalling after the fact just obscures your victory.
Billy is a nice guy (much nicer than I am) and he’s older than we are. He grew up in a different era, and he sees the world differently than we do. That doesn’t make him right (he’s not), but it does explain how he gets such a different interpretation from the NT than we do. You will probably never agree with him on this issue, but I’ve learned a lot from him over the years, and generally respect his take on things.
Peace,
Boxer
That’s absolutely true, and goes for men also. The dude who thinks he’s one-upped the wimminz by having kids at 45, with his 25 year old wife. He is going to be hitting pension before those kids are up and out of his house. What (TF) kind of life is that?
At 60, a man should be well established, a millionaire, out having fun, playing golf and enjoying life. He should have gone through dealing with his son banging the neighbor girl and wrecking the car years before. He should have grand-children by then.
Boxer, I’m 56, with 5-YO twins. The only thing I’d have done differently would have been to either have chosen a better wife or NO wife to do this with (hiring what help I needed), and to have had another child. I expect to work til I croak; that’s the deal I knowingly signed up for. As I had certain (important to me) kinds of fun when younger (hiked the whole Appalachian Trail one year, that sort of thing), I accept the tradeoffs. I didn’t want kids til later in life (I only became Christian in 2005), so this is my path.
Oh, and I have 3 footlockers’ worth of books and articles (safely secured at a trusted family member’s house) covering much of what I would want my kids to know about life and choices, in case I die before they reach adulthood.
BTTT
Bumping to the top. Those footlockers I call my childrens’ time capsule.
Oh, and we did the egg donor/gestational surrogate thing to get our kids. I just should have done it without my wife (the “glue beneath my feet” instead of “the wind beneath my wings”).
Dear honeycomb:
Any man looking for answer’s and doesn’t listen is a fool / idiot.
You and squiddy already won the argument. Arguments aren’t won by insults (though, this being the internet, insults are usually a fun part of arguments). You guys won the argument just by asking for a source. It was that easy. Namecalling after the fact just obscures your victory.
Billy is a nice guy (much nicer than I am) and he’s older than we are. He grew up in a different era, and he sees the world differently than we do. That doesn’t make him right (he’s not), but it does explain how he gets such a different interpretation from the NT than we do. You will probably never agree with him on this issue, but I’ve learned a lot from him over the years, and generally respect his take on things.
Peace,
Boxer
You’re right, my bad.
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Break
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@ BillyS .. please stop telling men to marry and we’re good. Thanks in advance.
honeycomb
This isn’t hard. Marriage is for most people, otherwise verses in Genesis about being fruitful, multiplying, filling the earth, etc., wouldn’t be there (hard to fill the earth with a minority getting married).
Marriage is for most, yet, as 1 Corinthians 7 indicates, there are exceptions. If you feel no urge for children and can control your sexual temptations…then don’t marry.
Having said that, if one burns, as 1 Corinthians 7 also states, then marriage is the one right outlet for sexuality by God’s standards.
Oscar says:
September 14, 2017 at 10:24 am
@ honeycomb says:
September 13, 2017 at 1:24 pm
“Christ is OUR example .. he did not marry”
You do realize that Christ has a bride for which He will return, right?
I disagree that the Bible commands us to marry (though it’s definitely the norm from Genesis to Revelation), but the “Christ did not marry” argument is false.
@ Oscar ..
You do realize that Christ has a bride for which He will return, right?
Yes I do .. He did not physically marry while physically here. So, the argument is valid (re: you think it’s false).
@Oscar
In support of honeycomb, if he fulfilled the whole law prior to dying, I don’t think it counts as credit for an after death marriage.
@ squid_hunt says:
September 14, 2017 at 10:41 am
“In support of honeycomb, if he fulfilled the whole law prior to dying, I don’t think it counts as credit for an after death marriage.”
Repeating my statement above: I disagree that the Bible commands us to marry. My argument is not that there is any law that commands us to marry.
@ honeycomb says:
September 14, 2017 at 10:33 am
“He did not physically marry while physically here. So, the argument is valid (re: you think it’s false).”
Since physical marriage is an earthly representation of Christ and the Church, your argument is not valid.
Again, I see no commandment to marry, but that doesn’t make your argument valid. Use a different argument.
Recognizing that, I was stating that it is a valid comparison. If Christ was sinless under the law at his death, then marriage must not be a commandment to a man. I do realize we’re on the same side of the overarching argument.
@ Boxer (Secret King of All Gamma Males) says:
September 13, 2017 at 9:47 pm
“The dude who thinks he’s one-upped the wimminz by having kids at 45, with his 25 year old wife. He is going to be hitting pension before those kids are up and out of his house. What (TF) kind of life is that?”
That’s the truth. I’m 41, and my youngest (my 9th) is 1 year old. Thank the Lord for helpful older children!
That’s how I would understand it. Marriage is an institution by God He created and is best recognized (or modeled) by Christ and the church. If the marriage of a man and woman was commanded by God and choosing to not get married would be sinful…it would have been said.
In fact if you ever notice in Scripture it’s not the fact a person isn’t married that is the sin…but being sexually immoral while unmarried is the sin.
Dear Fellas:
Luke sez:
then Oscar sez:
First of all, congratulations to both of you gentlemen. I definitely didn’t mean any disrespect. I’ll just note that I hope I’m not in your shoes. That’s part selfishness, and part survival instinct. hahaha!
Best,
Boxer
Pingback: Marry and Reproduce! – v5k2c2
@ Boxer (Secret King of All Gamma Males) says:
September 14, 2017 at 11:35 am
“I definitely didn’t mean any disrespect.”
No disrespect perceived. You’re right; getting married, making and raising babies are all best started when young. That’s more true for women than for men, but it’s still true for men. Just as it’s irresponsible to tell young women that they should delay marriage and children until 30+, it’s irresponsible to tell young men that they should delay marriage and children until 40+.
Boxer and Oscar, you both have particularly highlighted an issue important with having kids while old. Yeah, sure, Oscar had a kid when he was 40. It was his 9th. It’s hard to have 9 without hitting 40. Oscar highlighted the importance of the older kids, so the mom has more help when she is in her 40s, as she likely has at least one, if not more than one, teen.
But it’s completely different to start at 40, as Boxer alludes to, and think you can churn out three in five years and have three under 5 when you are 45.
@Cane Caldo [follwing a quote of 1 Cor 7:6] “An untwisted interpretation is that there is a command is for each man and each woman to marry, but that concessions–exceptions–might and should be made in specific cases for specific reasons.”
No, you are actually the one who just twisted it. The concession he is talking about IS marriage, but that it’s better if everyone lives like he does – single and celibate. Also, read verses 25 through 38 in that chapter, and then be honest with yourself about whether there really is is a commandment to marry.
Are you a Calivinist? Just asking…