Commenter Rachel asked a question a little over a week ago:
I have a bunch of teenage daughters. I try to teach them to respect their father and men in general, like their youth group leader who recently nearly died in the Air Force yet still laughs with them every Friday night. I know I have been a jerk here but I want my daughters to be better than me. I had a discussion with my nineteen year old about ‘settling’ yesterday. Deti says we shouldn’t settle (i think) -I mean who wants a woman who isn’t totally into them. I think he is right. My 19 yr old currently has 2 men interested. One is autistic, he is in her high school class and she treats him like a human being. Since all the other girls treat him like crap she worries that she is encouraging him. Being hypergamous, she doesn’t even see him as a man. The other is a normal shy guy. He appears to be a solid Christian but we don’t know since she only met him at a Christian camp. I have warned her not to dismiss him but he doesn’t push her buttons. Is he the one and she should settle or is he just the first guy she’s met and she doesn’t know any better. I honestly don’t know.
When responding to another commenter, she added:
…he may not be interested, but she is barely communicating with him because she doesn’t want to lead him on – is that just one of those many little choices that lead to spinsterhood?
I initially held off on answering this because I’m not in a position to give parenting advice on the topic. Since Rachel and her husband have multiple teenage daughters, I might hit them up for advice myself in a few years. But as I’ve covered the related question in several posts I wanted to take a crack at it. However, instead of offering parenting advice I’ll frame my response as general advice to young women looking to marry.
The first thing I’ll say is that I wouldn’t worry about a young woman not being interested in any given man. This isn’t cause for concern, and she doesn’t owe them romantic/sexual interest. What would be concerning is if a woman found herself unable to feel attracted towards the kind of men who are in her “marriage league”. I don’t know how often this occurs, but we do hear frequent complaints from the women who experience this.
The solution if that happens is for the young woman to recognize that she has a problem, and if she still wants to marry she can solve it in one of two ways. She can either become more attractive to the kind of man she hopes to marry, or she can humble herself. This may seem obvious upon reading it, but I mention it because it isn’t how we typically see women responding to the problem. Most commonly what we see is a woman urging men to fix the problem for her, either by becoming more attracted to her or more attractive for her. But just like she doesn’t owe it to any given man to be attracted to him, no man owes it to her to become attracted to her. And if the man in question is able to up his attractiveness, this would mean he could hope to attract a more attractive wife. This would solve his problem, not hers.
All of this is made more difficult for young women than it was in the past. Prior to the sexual revolution older women advised young women to not become overly full of themselves, and to look for a husband when young. Ironically now middle aged feminist women are starting to warn younger women of the dangers of overly valuing themselves and waiting too long, but middle aged Christian women are teaching young women the opposite. At the same time, young women looking to marry today lack the wealth of information young women had in the past. When most women married by their early twenties, women in their teens could look at the women a few years older than them to get a sense of what they might hope to attract for marriage. Now far fewer other women are marrying young, so there is much less information available here. Even worse, the lack of information comes as the amount of noise (social media attention, attention from men running day game, etc) has greatly increased.
On the other hand, while the cultural changes have made it more of a challenge for a young woman looking to marry, the relative lack of competition does offer her an advantage. The way I would frame this for a young woman looking to marry is to realize that the best man she can hope to marry is out there today. There may be fewer attractive Christian men looking to marry young, but they exist. Her goal is to find him and attract his attention before another woman snaps him up.
Again, this may seem obvious upon reading it, but this mind frame is surprisingly uncommon. Young women are being encouraged to wait around and judge the performance of a stream of suitors they hope will appear any day now. But other women’s foolishness is a wise woman’s advantage, so while other women are foolishly declaring themselves the pearl of great price, a prize to be won, etc. a wise young woman can quietly go about finding her man before one of those other bitches does. I should add that because modern Christians tend to confuse chivalry for Christianity, many will falsely teach that a Christian woman’s job is to wait around while wiser women are seeking out the man she hopes to marry. This simply isn’t true. The Bible doesn’t give us a formal set of instructions on finding a spouse, but it certainly doesn’t teach the chivalrous model. Consider the fact that only two books of the Bible are named after women (Esther & Ruth), and both describe how the heroine won over her future husband.
Thoughts on Optimizers
Part of the problem with the term “settle” is that it implies that the goal should be other than optimization. More accurately, the problem is either that the woman needs to fix something that is broken, or that she isn’t optimizing enough. We should encourage young women (and men) to seek out the most attractive spouse they can hope to attract. For a husband this would be a combination of his physical and personality traits along with his ability to provide (or signals of such). Most would hopefully add in the importance of seeking a fellow Christian who is strong in their faith. All of this should be in the optimization matrix, but we should also include the young person’s chastity. In 1 Cor 7 the Apostle Paul instructs us that if we burn with passion we should marry and have sex. He doesn’t give us a timeline here, but clearly he isn’t saying that time is no object. At the very least the goal should be to marry soon.
Remember, good men are hard to find.
If a young woman takes this seriously, one thing that should be clear to her is that the kind of man she wants is both rare and attractive to other women. Once she finds him, she should keep that in mind as the culture (including Christian culture) repeatedly tells her what a loser he is. She should be appreciative of him not only because this is proper for a christian wife, but for her own happiness. This is also an area where her parents can assist by setting an example. I can say this from experience, not as a father, but as a son-in-law. My mother-in-law and father-in-law have both blessed our marriage by being truly grateful that I am their daughter’s husband and their grandchildren’s father. This is sadly counter-cultural, especially in conservative Christian circles.
See Also:
My mother-in-law and father-in-law have both blessed our marriage by being truly grateful that I am their daughter’s husband and their grandchildren’s father. This is sadly counter-cultural, especially in conservative Christian circles.
This is well said. One thing my late father made very clear to my husband in myriad ways -including verbally- was how much he appreciated the good husband he was (and still is) to me. It is sadly counter-cultural.
Dalrock
If a young woman takes this seriously, one thing that should be clear to her is that the kind of man she wants is both rare and attractive to other women. Once she finds him, she should keep that in mind as the culture (including Christian culture) repeatedly tells her what a loser he is.
Plus the culture, the churches and her own peers will be aghast at the very idea of marrying when she hasn’t yet “found herself” / “found her voice” / “had a life” / “isn’t yet even 25” and so forth. This noise should be ignored and if possible, pushed back against.
One more thing that has come out in the Anna Hitchings comments: few women today of any age seem to be aware that they ought to bring something to the table, too, something beyond their awesome selves (and vagina). If she wishes to follow a man and marry him, what makes her worth his attention and time? A question that is rarely, if ever, asked.
I very nearly married the first girl I ever dated who actually put in real effort. Seriously it was so out of the ordinary, it nearly happened. Girl game is real ya’ll.
She is 19. She should be ready to meet a man in his mid-20s that has already proven he is a man. Her best bet is a mature man who already has a job, a residence, and shown he has the ability to manage his affairs.
That is the advice I have given my 19-year-old daughter, my 17-year-old daughter, and am starting to discuss with my 11-year-old daughter. Hand in hand with this is the prohibition on “dating” before they are 18.
I advise my 15-year-old son to establish himself as a man with a job, a residence, and maturity before looking for a wife.
A few random observations:
Until “Christian” culture can stop being as toxic to marriage as (if not more so than) the secular worldly culture, nothing will change (witness: “Ironically now middle aged feminist women are starting to warn younger women of the dangers of overly valuing themselves and waiting too long, but middle aged Christian women are teaching young women the opposite.“).
The solution if that happens is for the young woman to recognize that she has a problem, and if she still wants to marry she can solve it in one of two ways. She can either become more attractive to the kind of man she hopes to marry, or she can humble herself. This may seem obvious upon reading it, but I mention it because it isn’t how we typically see women responding to the problem. Most commonly what we see is a woman urging men to fix the problem for her, either by becoming more attracted to her or more attractive for her.
This is related to my last point. Until women can be compelled to realize that until they put their big girl pants on and wake up to the fact that it is on THEM to show that they have “skin in the game” and that THEY are also responsible for taking the initiative to ensure that they “make themselves suitable for a suitable husband,” the future is a studio apartment, cats, boxed wine, and head meds.
Remember, good men are hard to find
No. “Billionaire actor handyman rockstars” are hard to find, but these are not “good men” for marriage. Unfortunately, that stereotype IS the “good man” for most young women, even “Christian” women.
This is a “good man” for marriage and he is not really very hard to find at all:
A combination of his [attractive] physical and personality traits along with his ability to provide (or signals of such).
IOW, beta bux. NOT “good men” or attractive to young women, even if these guys are the “medicine, nutrition, and vitamins” they need for a strong, healthy Christian marriage.
Overall, a very good set of strategy guidelines for young women to solve the problem being described. Unfortunately, it is 1) logical, 2) common sense based, and 3) requires and understanding of cause and effect. None of these are female long suits. Thus, ironically, in that sense it’s better advice for young men if you could adapt the sex perspectives.
A great post, as usual. Two questions –
“good men are hard to find”
Like Feeriker, this seems implausible to me. Why are there few men at the same level of each women? That wasn’t a problem in the past. What has changed?
“There may be fewer attractive Christian men looking to marry young, but they exist.”
Again, what is the evidence for this? Women want to marry later, and pretty much everybody tells them to do so. My guess (guess!) is that a man tends to marry when he meet a woman that he finds attractive who really wants to marry now. That’s how it was. How do we know this has changed, and if so – why?
BTW – economics has little to do with it. Young people married even during the Great Depression and WWII. The rate was depressed from that before and after those events, but I suspect at higher rates than today.
I have to agree with feeriker here. Good men are not hard to find. What’s hard is for Christian girls to know what a good man looks like, and what to do to attract his attention.
I speak only from my region, but even within Christian circles the women have divided up the types of men into two groups; men they want to date versus the men they want to marry. The latter has to be passive. If a Christian man shows any sign of real assertive, the girls aren’t really that interested because deep down they want a man they can control. However, those are men who aren’t arousing, either.
Larry Kummer
“good men are hard to find”
Like Feeriker, this seems implausible to me. Why are there few men at the same level of each women?
Because of female hypergamy. Women tend to have an inflated view of their own SMV and MMV in the modern “youGOGirl” world. Not just in their 20’s, but into their 30’s and 40’s. Only when they hit 50 and most (not all, most) women become invisible does their view really change. Even then, some just carry around an inflated view of themselves.
Women want to marry later, and pretty much everybody tells them to do so. My guess (guess!) is that a man tends to marry when he meet a woman that he finds attractive who really wants to marry now AND is attracted to him. That’s how it was.
It still is. You answered your own question.
1. Women do not want to marry until 25-26 or so, therefore they marry @27+.
2. Men may want to marry earlier but so what?
3. Even women who are settling try to find some attraction in a man. IF they are not attracted to a man, they won’t marry him.
Manosphere 110 level questions.
How do we know this has changed, and if so – why?
We know it has changed because women in the US no longer marry at 20 or 22, but rather at 27 or 28. Those numbers cannot lie.
Why? Cripes, that’s Manosphere 120 level. It’s discussed many places. Short answer: unleashed hypergamy plus choice addiction, aka the Cock Carousel.
@Larry Kummer, Editor
I mean this in two ways. First, we are forever told that good men are hard to find, by women who act as if the opposite were true. Second, it is true when you consider the equation a woman must solve. Not every man is extraordinary in a general sense, but for his wife he is the best combination of desired qualities she could get. She should remember this and be thankful.
It is a good question if the ratio has changed. And it is true that culturally women are driving the delay in marriage. But with this shift I think that fewer men are looking to marry in their early twenties. Part of this is the cultural lecture that a man should not steal a woman’s youth by marrying her; her prime sexuality should not be bottled up (trapped!) In marriage, but should be dedicated to sexy badboys. I also recall being warned as a young man that a man who married a young woman deserved to be devastated in divorce.
Either way, I do think it is harder to find marriage minded young men. They are countercultural and we have unleashed a cacophony of noise. On the flip side most young women are either delaying marriage or are being falsely “traditional” by fixating on a chivalrous script (or both, as Wendy Griffith proves). So a woman who is actively looking may have better options today than she would have had in the past, but the search isn’t necessarily easy. As I mentioned in the OP, one serious challenge is understanding her real MMV. If she gets that wrong she won’t snap up her best option when she sees him, and some other woman will take him away from her.
The Question
I speak only from my region, but even within Christian circles the women have divided up the types of men into two groups; men they want to date versus the men they want to marry.
In other words, the church version of standard dual-track mating strategy: Alpha lays, Beta pays.
The latter has to be passive. If a Christian man shows any sign of real assertive, the girls aren’t really that interested because deep down they want a man they can control.
First of all, the church men who show any degree of being assertive are not consistent; they may pass one fitness test but then fail on later ones. This makes them just another Beta (orbiter).
However…
Reallly deep down those church girls want a Chad who will control them, because AWALT. But in the modern YouGoGrrl strong-independent-woman world they’ve gotten brainwashed to want nice Bob the Beta who will do what he’s told. Underneath that layer of brainwashing, though…
However, those are men who aren’t arousing, either.
Well, yeah. That’s basic Game. It is certain that the nice church men who may accidentally show some masculinity once in a blue moon cannot consistently assert it, so the nice church girls decide he’s not good enough. He’s … contentious … perhaps? Well, maybe he can be molded into something alter marriage (pouty sigh).
A churchgoing man with a solid frame and Game could walk into your zone and have his pick of the girls…not kidding. Scandal might well ensue…
Have you looked at Deep Strength’s book yet? It is well written and right to the point. No word salad. Worth your time.
Dalrock
And it is true that culturally women are driving the delay in marriage. But with this shift I think that fewer men are looking to marry in their early twenties.
How could we know that fewer men are looking to marry in their early twenties? What data would confirm this?
Hi Dalrock,
Thanks for the post. I want to talk to my Christian female friend about this. She expressed that my marriage dynamics have gradually encouraged her to see the good in being a house wife. She doesn’t think she will be able to marry soon, feeling she has no prospects.
I thought I could encourage her to focus on enhancing her own marriagable traits, and persuing a man of equal value.
How can I help her assess her SMV and find some good options?
She is very normal and therefore wants to ‘have it all’ and not ‘waste her education’. How can I help her out in the real world, where I think being too ‘reactionary’ could drive her away?
I really want her to be happy and not waste her 20s on career.
@Anonymous Reader
I don’t have any data, but I’m also not sure we really disagree so I’m struggling with the question. Compared to my parents generation, marrying young was considered weird in the early 1990s. I was 24 and my wife was 20, and both of us got a degree of flack at the time. Her more so than me.
Looking at the median age of marriage stats I was right on time for the period. I also wasn’t one of the first in my group of friends to get married, and as I’ve written it seemed that for those of us who made it to Junior or Senior year in college we were suddenly sought after for marriage.
Either way, we are now over 20 years later, and young marriage is even more weird. Novaseeker has described the accepted UMC script, and I think that most middle class parents expect this to a lesser degree. So a woman in her late teens looking for a husband is very unusual. A 21 year old man looking to marry is equally so. And an 18 or 19 year old man looking to marry would be laughed at.
Again, I’m not saying that women didn’t drive this cultural shift. They did. I’m saying it happened, and while a woman who takes advantage of her youth and fertility while her peers squander theirs has an advantage against her foolish peers, culturally we have made it harder.
Only when they hit 50 and most (not all, most) women become invisible does their view really change. Even then, some just carry around an inflated view of themselves.
It doesn’t end in the 50s for the more attractive women. By the time you get to the 50s range, the percentage of women who are actually attractive is obviously much smaller than in earlier age ranges, even the 40s range, but it is also higher than it ever was because a small portion of women have gotten better at keeping themselves fit through gym work, better nutrition and health consciousness and so on. Most women in their 50s are not attractive, of course, but there is a small group, I would say 10-15%, who are still attractive to men in that age range — not nearly as attractive as younger women, but still attractive.
For that 10-15% the inflated self-image continues, because they know that they are the most attractive women in their cohort, still, and this is reflected on social media and dating apps and the like. It’s also the case that most of the women in this small group do not want to date men who are older than they are (this flips for women around age 40) … they want to date men who are younger or, at the most, same age. The delusion sets in when a woman who is, say, attractive for 52 thinks she can get an attractive 38yo man to *marry* her (plenty of these guys will do an older version of “Mrs. Robinson” with an attractive woman of that age, or even date them, but not marry them, of course, unless they are very option-less). So it doesn’t really end for the women who in the attractive portion of their age cohort. What changes, of course, is that slice of any age cohort shrinks over time — what that also means, though, is that the fewer and fewer women who are in that slice over time get massive, massive inflations of their own self-image and value.
One warning on the motivation for marriage: My exwife said she “married me for my potential” and no other reason. (She almost certainly really married me because she was one of the last ones left in her small church that hadn’t paired off and I was barely enough, but that is another story.)
Watch that this is not the sole reason for marrying or the marriage will have a really hard time working in the long run. She expected I would do everything and since I didn’t become the career rockstar she thought I could should be, she ultimately bailed.
My grandmother put her all into helping my grandfather do well and I had expected the same, yet I have realized I didn’t get anything like that. It also made her think she was a slave to the marriage rather than a valued part since she had to do all the things she did for me, not because she could do them.
This mindset is missing from most Christian women today and it is really tragic.
(BTW, how do I share something like this without making it sound like I am mulling over my own troubles? I see principles there, but others just see it as whining. I am open to ideas on that.)
“A churchgoing man with a solid frame and Game could walk into your zone and have his pick of the girls…not kidding. Scandal might well ensue…”
That approach can work in parts of the South or more traditional areas, but here any girl in a MC/UMC Christian family who wants to get married before going to college or before the age of 25 is seen as misguided.
Again, I can only speak from my region (PNW), but from my own experience older churchgoers have a very prescriptive policy for how Christian men are to behave and what a “Christian marriage” looks like – and it is very, very blue pill. Assertiveness is seen as threatening and decisiveness overly confident. Girls under the age of 25 are considered “too young,” even for a man still in his twenties (28-29).
Anonymous: “How could we know that fewer men are looking to marry in their early twenties? What data would confirm this?”
That’s a great question, but would take expensive surveys to answer. I suggest inverting this. We would know that there is an excess supply of young men wanting to marry when we see young men (in their 20s) saying that they want to marry, but can’t find attractive women who want to marry. I’m sure there are such, but they seem to be rare.
We see an endless stream of women saying this – so we know there are women in their 30s who want to marry.
But I think this framing is incorrect. Few men are looking to marry, esp when young. Marriage occurs when a man finds a woman that he finds attractive (ie. marragable) who wants to marry him. Usually (not always) she makes it happen. Woman could make this happen in their 20s, but no longer want to do so. Woman want to do so at 30, but the supply of men is too small that 1/ they considerable eligible AND 2/ consider them marriageable.
(She almost certainly really married me because she was one of the last ones left in her small church that hadn’t paired off and I was barely enough, but that is another story.)
This is MUCH more common than most people imagine, and until you’ve swallowed the pill and put on the glasses, you don’t usually see such women as bright red flags presenting an unacceptable level of risk.1
Larry Kummer
We would know that there is an excess supply of young men wanting to marry when we see young men (in their 20s) saying that they want to marry, but can’t find attractive women who want to marry.
We see an endless stream of women saying this – so we know there are women in their 30s who want to marry.
Sure, and since men and women are exactly the same except for boobs and babies, what they say or don’t say conveys the exact same message, right?
No.
In reality:
Men in their 20’s – are they encouraged to complain about their situation, or are they told to shut up and fix it?
In reality:
Women in general – are they encouraged to complain about anything that bothers them, or are they told to shut up and fix it?
To ask these questions is to answer them, by inspecting reality. With regard to marriage, the numbers cannot lie.
Now, the question I asked Dalrock is rhetorical, and it’s in the direction of epistemology. How do we know what we know? We know that on average US women do not want to marry before age 27 – because they don’t do that on average.
Actions speak louder than words. Whatever women say isn’t interesting; we observe what they do, and that tells us what they actually wanted at a given time. Women in their early to mid 20’s do not want to get married, on average. The numbers cannot lie.
Now then: What do US 20-something men want, in the context of marriage?
Has anyone bothered to even ask? How would one find out?
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Larry Kummer
Marriage occurs when a man finds a woman that he finds attractive (ie. marragable) who wants to marry him. Usually (not always) she makes it happen. Woman could make this happen in their 20s, but no longer want to do so. Woman want to do so at 30, but the supply of men is too small that 1/ they considerable eligible AND 2/ consider them marriageable.
This is an accurate summary. I do not know if Rod Dreher can understand it, however.
What I see here is a stream of divorces after short-lived marriages followed by a large number of never-married single “mothers” who fornicated. After that would be households that have a male and female in them but it’s a really mixed bag. Think cohabiting partners, usually heterosexual, but only one is the parent. Most of these relationships are volatile and partners cycle in and out of these “households.” The typical American nuclear family is still present, but well…. down toward the bottom of the list.
Betty Wright had some good advice back in 1971–seems very similar to what I’m reading here:
Thought-provoking article again Dalrock. Thank you. A couple of things:
-Asking the contemporary marriage-age woman to ”humble herself” or ”make herself more attractive to marry” is a really steep hill. You will find it well nigh impossible to tell the average marriage-age Western woman, even if she regularly goes to church, that she needs to be humble and feminine. you will find that the words bounce off the well-cultured Feminist Armor.
-The whole concept of women ”settling” is as wrong-headed as it is evil.
That’s because young, marriage-age men have not had the exposure or ability to build themselves into established stable roles in the modern workplace. Competition is hard, employment is not just unstable due to ”flexible” arrangements with corporate employers, but a young man’s prospects are also at the mercy of feminist / diversity / Affirmative Action quotas.
Most young men I know are hard at work building skills, reputations, names and careers for themselves, but there is no way that they can have awesome six-figure salaries that make them ”attractive” to the modern woman. The idea then that a young woman is ”settling’ when she finds someone marriageable is that she could do better. Well, f*ck. So can he.
-The best antidote to the ”settling” trope is what Russian mothers used to (and to my delight, I found, still do) tell their daughters: ”If you want to be married to a general, marry a lieutenant”. The idea is, find a man who has proven himself at least in part as judged by those around him, who has drive ambition and integrity. And support him as he builds his life.
In the last European winter, I asked my son’s fiancée (wife in 6 weeks), whose mother is Russian, if she could finish the proverb. I quoted half of it. She smiled sweetly and completed it. I asked her if she understood it, and if that indeed was how she saw my son. It wasn’t the last fitness test I was to run on her, but she passed it. She was brought up well, but then again, that’s what happens when you have two persecuted Christian parents from a Communist country.
I wanted to add a comment about the idea of settling.
Certainly, life is tough for people who aren’t in the top half/third/quarter of the attractiveness range as it’s unlikely that those people find their peers attractive. And yet, I have seen plenty of people who are not at all attractive to me, who seem quite happy with their partner who is of similar attractiveness.
Also, we all settle in the sense that we have to stop searching and make a choice. There might be someone better around the corner, but you could also go to your grave searching for the bigger better deal.
My conclusion then is to identify what are actual deal breakers, but beyond them to be somewhat flexible. Perhaps you find a woman who is pleasant to be around, and has a pretty face, but really needs to lose thirty pounds, but also is also old enough that she’s unlikely to be on her way to being fifty pounds overweight. A friend was dating a woman like that. They were very well matched except for the deal breaker, she was firm in not wanting kids, and he was equally firm in wanting kids. Because of this, they went their separate ways.
The same principle applies to women in looking for a man. Don’t date someone you would never consider marrying, and if you identify a deal breaker, stop dating them. That is the purpose of dating, to discover whether you are matched enough to marry and raise a family.
Well, that’s my opinion anyway.
I probably overly delight in giving people hard advice that they likely won’t follow. The time to worry about this was when your girls were six.
First off, pray. Modern marriage market is a viper’s nest and for your daughters sake you should pray hard they don’t become a viper.
Your daughter absolutely should not settle because it is cruel for the man and female bitterness is rooted in ingratitude. She should not delay marriage because fornication is soul destroying. You should treat the notion of gettinga degree or established in a career before marriage with naked scorn. You should publicly show gratitude for your husband, especially in front of your daughters. If you haven’t, apologize to him.
None of its easy, it’s all against all your programming, and it’s foolishness to the world. Just remember the paths. The broad paved one you can skip down whistling to hell on, or the hard narrow one leading to salvation and grace, each step being mocked by the peopleon the other path.
Remember also that 5000 people gathered to hear Jesus speak and by the time he was done 12 remained. The parable of the wedding party talks about people who were called to the wedding being thrown out because they weren’t really there for the wedding. This applies to the church. There are peoplein that building who aren’t there for the same reasons. They are not to be trusted.
Esther a heroine to you, Dalrock? A Jewess who married a non-Jew to establish shadow-government taxation power for her people by socially-engineered goy holocaust? What laudable cunning to esteem now and forever, Amen. Look around sometime. Who can’t be criticized the most? You guys, I tell ya. You think the craft is not ceaselessly perfected? on you?
From “How many husbands did Queen Esther have?”:
The sages assert in tractate Megilla that Mordechai married Esther first, and thus King Ahaseurus, “who wished to taste the taste of a virgin, actually tasted the taste of a married woman.”
This advice isn’t really helpful though. Yes it’s all true but it’s like telling a man not to judge a woman by her looks. Good advice but has no effect on who he’s attracted to.
Telling young christian women good christian men are hard to find so she needs to try really hard and snap one up before someone else does doesn’t really differentiate her strategy from that of secular women’s. All women are always trying to find the best man they can today and snap him up. This is nothing new.
And I dont know if chastity is as much of an advantage in today’s SMP as Dalrock implies. Yes, a man will find that to be an attractive feature of a potential spouse, but attractive christian men are not only attracted to (or attractive to) chaste women. And sex is an incredibly powerful weapon non-chaste women can and do use to get and keep the attention of attractive christian men.
Also, telling young women they should value a young man’s chastity is not really realistic either. If a man makes it to the age he is mature enough and stable enough to take a wife and support a family and he is a virgin he either has physical or personality traits that are not very attractive or he has herculean focus and self control like Tim Tebow and is out of the league of most women. It isn’t hypocritical to say chastity should fit into men’s optimization matrix and not womens.
The only solution today for men with daughters is to arrange marriages. That is the only strategy parents can employ that will reliably set their daughters up with a good husband. Parents can teach their sons game and they can have a decent chance of successfully attracting and keeping a wife. It is in the best interests of young women to take them out of the decision making process altogether. The modern dating market is structured to destroy them and it is based on their most primal sexual hard wiring. It isn’t fair to young women to subject them to that. Even with good advice. They need arranged marriages. I have daughters and plan on doing (or at least attempting) this. Hopefully this blog is still around in 10-15 years. I’ll have some 18-22 year olds to marry off. I’ll come here first.
Modern Marriage is like Sumo: the parties enter the ring, stamp the ground with their feet, throw Rice over the Dohyo move to their positions, crouch down then thinking better of it, grab some more rice and throw it, stamp a bit more, return to their position, crouch down, stand up, crouch down, place their fists on the mark and then…. it’s all over in seconds.
I was walking back with my friend from the pub last Saturday night and enquired of him how his eldest daughter was. He explained that it was her birthday – she was twenty one – is it really that long since I went to the hospital and saw this baby attached to various tubes and looking so small and helpless – and that she was throwing a party with her friend of the same age. I observed that we both new two people who had married teenagers. He said it was not like that anymore. I failed to say what i was thinking which is that I doubt that either of his daughters will ever produce grand-children for both are obsessed by their (potentially) glittering careers.
Young marriage put real pressure on men for not to marry young meant that by the time one was able to marry all that was left were the weirdos and the sluts. Now, the man has all the time in the world to sample the entire Baskins Robbins flavours of women and then probably pass on the idea anyway.
In an ideal world, the entire society, or to make it more plausible, at least your immediate community would be engaged a rational-based Christian informed collective effort to create healthy families. What this looks like from one community to another would vary but the everything from the expectations of both sexes to the left and right limits of the meeting and courtship phase to the way each behaves within the marriage iteself (including taking part in the aformentioned community effort to help others) would be reinforced along every dimension of life in such a place.
In the absence of that, we have the subjective reality of everyone defining what families are, what love is, what marriage is, what sex is for, and so on for themselves with the overarching principle in our civilization being “who are you to judge me?”
Many great ideas upthread, especially the one about how the time to worry about this was when they were six. Right on.
The only way you have a fighting chance to swim upstream against all the odds, the unrestrained hypergamy, the total lack of sexual boundaries is to have a series of age-approrpiate, rational discussions with your children from as early as possible about what you expect of them, how you will help and then love each other like a couple of star struck teengers in front of your kids. Add to that an effort to meet and expose them to other families who are at least somewhere on the map with you and hold on, white knuckeld as they enter puberty.
WHen I had the site “the Courtship Pledge” up, the loudest, most common complaint from readers (many of them “red-pill”) was “you can’t control your kids!” or “you can’t control who they fall in love with!”
No matter how hard I tried to explain that I was not trying to control the ultimate outcome in that precise way, and that instead trying to increase the odds of my kids finding a suitable mate and lifelong marriage it was “they will hate you” or some version of that. Every parent does this odds beating stuff, in every other area of life, but when it comes to this topic “who you fall in love with/marry” is a sacred, untouchable variable in your childrens life outcomes.
In fact, almost every single Disney princess and ROMCOM is basically constructed that way.
GIrl has interest from a guy who her parents actually like, but her true love is someone else. Even if the whole community around her is telling her that guy number one is right for her, she must rebel against this and chase the other one, because special individual who won’t be put in a corner or something.
It would even be useful to show these movies to your kids and point out to them how ridiculous the premise is, from a purely rational perspective.
“Do you think the people around you who love you very much would want you to miserable? Or might they have some pretty good ideas about whos personality is a good match for you?”
“If you start your new life together with someone who nobody thinks is right for you, how long do you think it will take for all the inlaws and everyone else to start warming up to them?”
“What are the second and third order effects of a decisions makeing process like that?”
This never has to be a dichotomous “we will pick or you will” proposition. WIth a little creativity, everyone can be a part of the process, and it can be fun and “romantic”
@bigjohn33
This is true when looking for sex, or just attention, from the most attractive men around. Women don’t need to be told to compete with other women in this context. Just try to stop them. But it isn’t true (for the most part) when “traditional” women are looking for a husband. Then the rules are entirely different. Then it isn’t about competing against other women, but savoring the process of judging the efforts of a series of men to impress her. In reality, most women don’t get stuck in this phase, as proven by the fact that nearly all of them still marry. Sooner or later, once they decide to get serious about marriage, they shift back into competition mode. But women like Wendy Griffith who stay in this mode into their mid 50s are the ones writing books teaching young Christian women how to find a husband.
That wasn’t my point. My point was the Apostle Paul told us that the solution to burning with passion was to marry and have sex. Christians should have a real sense of urgency to marry in order to protect their chastity. That conservative Christians have reversed this instruction, to where women who delay marriage the most are demonstrating maximum obedience to God, is a huge problem.
If a man makes it to the age he is mature enough and stable enough to take a wife and support a family and he is a virgin he either has physical or personality traits that are not very attractive or he has herculean focus and self control like Tim Tebow and is out of the league of most women.
I think this is mostly correct. It’s not that chastity in itself is unattractive to Christian women, it’s that the kinds of men who are chaste in today’s society and in their later 20s or older are not attractive to Christian women, generally, with outlierish exceptions like Tebow.
=====
Certainly, life is tough for people who aren’t in the top half/third/quarter of the attractiveness range as it’s unlikely that those people find their peers attractive. And yet, I have seen plenty of people who are not at all attractive to me, who seem quite happy with their partner who is of similar attractiveness.
Yes, I think it works for people who are at least average-ish attractiveness (say at least 4s, which are one level below average). It’s the people in the 1-3 range (and some of the 4 range) who will have a hard time being attracted to someone of their own level. They have to either get more attractive, or accept staying single if they cannot find someone of their own relatively low level of attractiveness attractive.
=====
Every parent does this odds beating stuff, in every other area of life, but when it comes to this topic “who you fall in love with/marry” is a sacred, untouchable variable in your childrens life outcomes.
I think it’s because they see one as undermining the other. So focusing on marriage at younger ages is seen as undermining the materialist part of the life script for the kids — so the emphasis is on nailing that down, and then worrying about finding a mate after that is lined up and done with. Hence the overall life script. People are encouraged in this by the fact that most people still do marry, even if it is later. There is fornication happening in between, yes, and everyone knows that, but that’s considered preferable, on balance, to messing up the materialist part of the life script by emphasizing early marriage in order to avoid or limit fornication. It’s priorities, and they’re pretty clear it seems to me.
I’ll tell you how it used to work and what is still one of the best options, all things considered. Send them off to a christian bible college to the tune of 40,000/year. I graduated from one in socal as a man in 2016, but there are some disturbing trends. First, like Darrick mentions, I have never seen encouragement for young marriage, but in fact, actual discouragement for the young women to get married. You could always count on a early 30s guest speaker PhD, who herself is single, to talk about that god-forsaken season of singleness with such affection and how all the girls should embrace it. Instead, what the girls should have actually heard from speakers is how this is the best meat market of Christian man that they will ever have access to.
After college, churches don’t really focus on the 25-30 group. They have college groups, oh yes, but after that it’s an afterthought. The 25 year old will be left with young adult/career groups that all weigh heavily 30s even though they say 20s/30s. And you can guess who makes up the majority of these groups. Reject guys going to community college at 28, single moms, and just generally unattractive people to the opposite sex.
Believe me, I have a beautiful sister who has tried to find even marginally attractive looking men with a good career in the church, and single ones just do not exist. Good Christian men with a real career and decent looks get swallowed up by their junior year of college. The post college dating scene is bleak indeed, especially when there will usually be a cadre of 28-30 ex carousel riders looking for any ray of light across the pews. Unfortunately few men that are uncoupled go to church anymore past the age of 21. Good luck meeting him there.
And for all the parents talking about arranged marriage, there is only one way. You must homeschool your kids and form a regular bonding program with around 6 other solid families, and ideally in a conservative state.
For most people though, unless you want your daughter to live a life of poverty, they should still send their daughter to college. There are just so many barriers for young men getting a good career started now. Hoping your daughter will find the doctor or lawyer who can raise a family one one income is insane. That, or watch your daughter disappear to Oklahoma and live out of a trailer pursuing the single income life. Look, I wish there were easy answers but there just aren’t.
Oh and keep her away from dating apps at all costs. That’s what inflates the egos of young women more than anything. Average girls getting matched up with local celebrities equals a horribly entitled ego for the normal men she encounters at school and church. If you see any young women staring at an iPhone today, it’s guaranteed that 30% of the time she’s perusing a list of quasi suitors that are trying to bang her. Curiously, almost every girl has got a dating app on her phone now, so no iphones ! Ha, good luck parents!
Spike
>support him as he builds his life
This is the advice my mother always gave me. When she married my dad, he was still in college and his first job after graduation was working out of someone’s garage. Now he owns his own company.
A big part of me regrets that I couldn’t do this for my husband, who’s older than me and mid-career. But there is a lot of satisfaction doing even small things for him, like making the bed in the morning or having dinner ready when he gets home. I can support him like that right now. He’s working on moving up in his field and I’m glad I’ll be there to take the pressure off him so he can focus on that.
I feel bad for women who have been deluded into thinking that doing something nice for somebody else is slavery. There is a lot of satisfaction in it. It’s just quiet and humble and maybe that’s the problem.
I believe that I have shared this anecdote before, but here goes anyway:
On our 30th anniversary my wife and I went out to a nice restaurant. When the perky waitress asked if there was a special occasion, we told her it was our 30th. She was amazed that we had been married 30 years, as if if was unthinkable. She then volunteered that her parents were divorced (apparently everyone is). While I didn’t say anything, I was amazed that she was amazed, though in hindsight I shouldn’t have been.
This was in a very white, though very liberal. upper middle class community,
@Mike
Sending daughters to college is a terrible idea and inculcates exactly the wrong attitude in young women. Racking up a bunch of debt and spending their most attractive and fertile years getting “educated” is counterproductive. Even if they are being exposed to a supposed “meat market” of wonderful potential husbands (who are themselves all broke and indebted). There is nothing wrong with living in a trailer park. God forbid young women prioritize being wives and mothers over not being poor. Your bourgeois boomer attitude is poison.
“Reversed this instruction, to one where women who delayed marriage the most are demonstrating the maximum obedience to God.”
How can Warhorn and Wilson-defenders not see this as fighting words, and instead focus on the commenters or Dalrock’s anonymity?
That quote of his such have church leaders and pastors rending their garments.
despite the fact that this comment section is obviously nearly all male, if any girl is looking for a:
taller than average, stronger than average, wealthier than average, more devout than average, smarter than average, funnier than average, 27 year old dude, hit me up.
Now let’s not forget about the local county jail and drug rehabilitation center. Plenty of good men at them locations. If she can’t find one at them maybe try a state or federal prison. She may have to wait a few years if she goes that route but good men are hard to find. I was down in New Orleans last week and as I strolled through Jackson square and the quarter I noticed plenty of good men sleeping on the side walks and parks grass. Yes mam they be plenty of good men out there she just got look for um. Might have to de-flea some of them but you know love can fix any problems. Happy hunting little 19 year old
“Should have”, not “such.”
As much as I despise the results of modern feminism, it is a wonderful thing that an intelligent 17 year old women is capable of making the decision to attend university all on her own, without needing to be “sent” by anyone. Christian dads are not going to win the game by controlling their adult daughters choices. All the work has to be put in up front of the preceding years so that she’ll actually respect your wishes.
And I have nothing wrong with lower income people or the choices of lifestyle that lead to it. There are many great single income families that homeschool their families, live in cheap states, and earn 35000 a year.
My point is that the default of getting educated is still correct for at least 70% of Christian young women.
There is not this magical supply of wonderful young tradesmen (that unindebted cohort of decent earning, single, Christian men I assume you are referencing). More likely, a young women not attending college will meet the losers of this world, unless she intentionally places herself in situations to come across quality men. But as you say, there are distributions in this life, and some people by the law of averages must fall at either end of the curve.
Tell me where all these great quality single, Christian men are that don’t go to college. Yes, I’m sure you have some anecdotes of high earning tradesmen but they are not normal or abundant. Most tradesmen are not Christian and can often be found at strip clubs and bars. It’s just the general culture, a descriptive fact of a population, not a judgement.
No matter how hard I tried to explain that I was not trying to control the ultimate outcome in that precise way, and that instead trying to increase the odds of my kids finding a suitable mate and lifelong marriage it was “they will hate you” or some version of that. Every parent does this odds beating stuff, in every other area of life, but when it comes to this topic “who you fall in love with/marry” is a sacred, untouchable variable in your childrens life outcomes.
This perhaps represents the ultimate sign of “Lazy Parent Syndrome.” This malady, at epidemic levels in our society, is centered around the idea, seldom expressed verbally, but expressed clearly in attitude, that parenting is a punishment, an onerous chore, a curse, and a burden. Having to do anything proactive in guiding, nurturing, disciplining, and mentoring one’s children is seen as an act of insufferable agony. Afflicted parents view their role as a prison sentence in which they count the years, months, weeks, and days until the child(ren) is/are “out of the nest” and on their own to sink or swim, devour or be devoured.
For LPS patients even the most mundane of parental obligations is borderline unbearable. To step it up a notch and be the navigator for one’s child as they traverse one of the most important and danger-fraught phases of their life, leading to a decision having eternal consequences? WAAAAAAY too much uncomfortable weight and responsibility to bear. Better to let them reach majority age and kick them out into the jungle to fend for themselves, then blame them for being unprepared when they get eaten alive.
The other part of this is that many (most?) parents stumbled blindly into marriage themselves without any guidance from their own elders and wouldn’t have a clue where to begin with their own kids. For most Christian parents (nearly all, in fact), their own marriages are hedonic and not biblical, so they couldn’t model the right path even if they wanted to.
I really don’t know what the solution is, if there realistically is one.
Dalrock:
I apologize as this is OT. Thought you might use this as a future column.
View at Medium.com
I was looking at trade colleges and their recent graduates. It worked for my third daughter – she was dating various emoboys before we introduced her to a real man with a real job. Social media can work for vetting, it’s truly amazing what folks will put on Farcebook. I also recommend getting an Intelius (or equivalent) account to check for criminal records and such.
For improvement, that third daughter went to a culinary college. The granddaughter who’s marrying a grad student she met in college has been asking for cooking tips as well. Being a good cook definitely adds a point or two to the marital value.
tweell
@Feeriker
That’s exactly right – it’s the blind leading the blind. And let’s be honest, most wives are not going to reveal the obvious-to-all-her-girlfriends secret that her husband was likely a beta blob backup plan. So a wife counseling a daughter based on the origins of her own marriage will probably not be that effective, since hubby must forever be kept in the dark. Heck, many of these moms live vicariously through their daughters slut phase in a totally perverted, abdication or parental responsibility and guidance. So getting even the average Christian mom to relay good advice is nearly hopeless. “Don’t settle like I settled for your father!” Let me Get pumped and dumped by bad boys with you (in spirit) and we can gossip by text. Twil be so fun!
Feeriker:
A combination of his [attractive] physical and personality traits along with his ability to provide (or signals of such).
IOW, beta bux.
I disagree. This is a description of alpha bux, or beta fux, take your pick. Either the marriage minded alpha provider, or the good beta provider with more than a bit of charm and swagger. Both men have to be able to stand firm, say “no”, pass shit tests, and walk away from women who aren’t being or doing what they want or who aren’t giving them what they need.
And far too many men are unwilling to walk away from bad deals, because most men aren’t attractive enough to get and keep a woman for 30 years. They just aren’t. And they know they aren’t. So they settle deeply, and take what they can get.
The indignation engine gets new life with #UsToo:
https://blmabuseandneglectblog.com/2019/05/15/us-too/
https://www.ibanet.org/bullying-and-sexual-harassment.aspx
Dalrock,
A few things bugged me about what you wrote.
1. “We should encourage young women (and men) to seek out the most attractive spouse they can hope to attract. For a husband this would be a combination of his physical and personality traits along with his ability to provide (or signals of such).”
“Signals” of a man’s ability to provide aren’t sufficient. While present success is no guarantee of future success, a man’s potential means nothing if he won’t achieve what he could.
2. “If a young woman takes this [a marriage search for a “good man”] seriously, one thing that should be clear to her is that the kind of man she wants is both rare and attractive to other women.”
This again reduces marriage to an institution reserved for elite men and, because monogamy is the norm, elite women. I dare say, men and women are commanded by Christian scripture to marry. This is not optional. Jesus himself, when his apostles say, “If that’s how marriage is, it’s better not to marry,” replies, (paraphrased), “Then you don’t need your dick, do you?”
I think we permit women to make too big a deal of husband selection – and we men spend too much effort at wife selection. I like my wife, and certainly spent some effort meeting several young women and evaluating compatibility while I was a young man, but I would have married any but one or two if pressed, and I wouldn’t have divorced any of them – even the worst!
This is the fallacy of “good men are hard to find.” No man is assured he will marry a “good woman” and no woman is assured he will marry a “good man.” God’s command is not, “find a GOOD woman, and only a good woman, and only marry a good woman.” The most Paul – not Christ – advises is, “Marry a Christian.” The command is, “Marry.”
Finally, marriage is not reserved exclusively to Christians. If the Christian scriptures are to be believed, then marriage is the command of God to ALL PEOPLE, and so it is not a sacrament of the Christian church, but a condition of mankind, generally. While a woman should attempt to discern the heart of marriage prospects, she may easily slip from sensible caution to finding herself judged my her own standards.
The OP worries about two young men, a guy her daughter met at a “church camp” and an “autistic” her daughter doesn’t like. OP worries over nonsense. Here’s what convinced me that my daughter and her fiance were a good match: he loves her (“as Christ loves the Church”) and would die for her. All the rest is gravy.
The most Paul – not Christ – advises
I stopped right there.
g2-(a whole bunch of hexadecimals)
This is excellent advice. There are a lot of predators out there who are hiding from their past. Its not the lies they tell them, its lying by omission. Sometimes that is worse.
A coworker’s son, he was about to buy his girlfriend a ring and ask her to marry him but they had to sit the boy down and be honest with him. They did a background check by hiring a private investigator. They found out that she had filed for bankruptcy a couple of years ago (to welsh on the credit cards) and was walking around with over $100,000 in student loan debt. Of course, their son knew none of this. He was angry with his folks for helicoptering him and he was angry with his girlfriend for not telling him.
There is a non stop parade of articles telling modern Christian women that they are “pearls of great price” and should not settle for anything but the best. But has there ever been an article telling the women what they must do to deserve a great man? It seems like the idea that the woman must bring something to the table is completely alien.
Anon Reader:
Even women who are settling try to find some attraction in a man. IF they are not attracted to a man, they won’t marry him.
That’s not true. Women are marrying men they’re not sexually attracted to. They’re doing so because a woman would rather have been married and divorced than never married at all. The status of marriage is so important to a woman that as a last resort and if she has to, she’ll marry any old guy who’s willing to wife her up, just so she can check “wife” and “marriage” off the bucket list.
“because most men aren’t attractive enough to get and keep a woman for 30 years.”
Ha ha. Platinum coated, diamond-studded pedestal there.
Try this; “Most women are fat and no amount of male attractiveness will change that.”
@thedeti
“Women are marrying men they’re not sexually attracted to.”
Within Christian circles, I suggest that this is not even a last resort, it’s almost accepted when they’re young that they’ll marry that kind of man, hence the whole “get it out of your system” and then get married mentality that Dalrock has mentioned in recent posts. Just make sure no money is exchanged.
Opus:
Young marriage put real pressure on men for not to marry young meant that by the time one was able to marry all that was left were the weirdos and the sluts. Now, the man has all the time in the world to sample the entire Baskins Robbins flavours of women and then probably pass on the idea anyway.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say in that first sentence.
The second sentence is true only of top 20% men.
@ John James R:
Ha ha. Platinum coated, diamond-studded pedestal there.
This isn’t true. Saying that men aren’t attractive enough to attract today’s modern woman is simply fact. Men are getting less attractive in relation to the relative status and attractiveness of women. Most men can’t even bring beta bux to the table, couldn’t even if they wanted to.
Try this; “Most women are fat and no amount of male attractiveness will change that.”
This might be true, but if it is, it does not negate what I said: That most men aren’t attractive enough to attract a woman and keep her attracted for 30 years or more.
I would be thanking them most profusely, getting on my knees and praising the Lord, then getting up and then over the course of a few weeks, being more beta than usual so that the GF would dump me quickly and quietly.
Indeed, this is true. I have noticed this. Whilst I can attract a woman for a short period of time, it in no way transfer into a long term marriage whereby she will remain attracted. It doesn’t even begin to develop much past a few months. Women are fickle these days, expecting them to honour a life long agreement like marriage, haha! Just not going to happen. Not for your average Joe.
The time for marriage has passed. It is for the high class only. For the beautiful, rich and famous only and even then, problems are always just around the corner.
Unless and until society is willing to place restrictions on women, everyone is just whistling past the graveyard. Women’s hypergamy takes no prisoners.
fh, I have no idea what the boy did. I just knew he was angry with everyone when he found out “everything.” Obviously, the boy’s parents were looking out for him, being good parents. But when you are 22 or 25 or whatever he was, he may not see things from the rational standpoint that you and I see it.
My advice to the above women with daughters. They are not going to find a husband who matches their standards. Therefore, they will never be in a marriage for life. They will either get married and then divorced or never get married to begin with. Your daughters have close to zero chance of ever getting their hypergamy under control, you can try but society will override your teaching and bombard them with self entitlement, self esteem and ‘you go girlisms’ and blow up their social media accounts with constant adulations from simps that will flatter and build her up until your daughters sense of worth is higher than most men can attract. There is little to no way to stop this. Then there is schooling and the feminism in higher education, they will indoctrinate your daughter to hate betas, to despise them and mock them. She will be taught that men are abusive, oppressive and out to get her. This will knock unless ten years off her ability to get a husband.
In the end, there is absolutely zero solution to any of this. Society has been invaded and taken over by feminism, it is all that matters. Thus marriage is off the menu for your sons and your daughters; instead your sons will fail because they will receive little to no help from society but will instead receive scorn, hatred and be drugged into insignificance, your daughters, on the other hand, will be fed a daily diet of step ups, free resources, free promotions and never, ending validation.
Forget about marriage, forget about grand children, forget about your society, it is all coming to a close.
That should be… “knock another ten years off her….”
fh,
You are not giving the parents advice. You are giving them doom. Maybe doom is all that awaits the parents on this forum but that is beside the point. We are not ready to burn the planet yet.
Most male celebrities and hollywood stars aren’t “attractive” enough to keep a woman attracted for 10 years or more. 5 years? Sometimes.
One thing that might be helpful is taking about it in terms of satisficing rather than optimizing.
If you treat dating as an optimization problem like the ‘secretary problem,’ where you only win if you find your soulmate, you are going to have a rough time of it. The optimal strategy to the secretary problem for example is to date and reject the first ~36.8% of the dating population just to set expectations and then keep rejecting everyone else until you find someone better than the best match in that first 36.8%. Not exactly a recipe for chastity.
Satisficing differs from optimization in that you’ll accept anyone who meets certain criteria. It’s not settling, because you are still choosing someone who you are attracted to, but you’re deciding to be comfortable with a good match rather than holding out for a perfect match.
@deti;
That most men aren’t attractive enough to attract a woman and keep her attracted for 30 years or more.
Is your advice to the mother of the 19 year old girl, in the original post, that her daughter will never find someone she is attracted to and marry him? Further that if her daughter ever get married it will be to a BB, most likely after the CC?
I agree with your statement, but I am just asking what practical way does it apply, as advice, to the commenter and her daughter?
There is no real practical advice to give. However, it is still advising them of what awaits them. The future applies to them just as it applies to you or I. Marriage is becoming an elitist institution, one that doesn’t resemble Biblical Marriage anyway, just a means to keep the money in the family so to speak.
One man’s doom is another man’s rebirth.
For all to enjoy.
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/marriage-has-become-a-trophy?utm_source=pocket-newtab
This article suggest marriage is becoming and end of life congratulations. Also reserved for the elite (college educated/ good career).
@Opus said, “Modern Marriage is like Sumo: the parties enter the ring…” That first paragraph is great writing, as in show don’t tell. I guess you’re saying marriage ends quickly, but that is not always the case. Women are sadists, and every man’s vulnerabilities and utilities are different. But I loved reading that paragraph. The war is won before it begins. So, on a Sun Tzu level, I can see it as a typical process. The man has no idea it is a contest,or he would not marry her in the first place. “If marriage is a sport, what sport would it be?” Sumo wrestling! The flying rice is a warning that comes too late and is not seen for what it is. lol
@Knightfly, I followed your link to the article by John Davis. Too bad for all this emotional attachment to what women profess to think and be and how they behave, as if morality is relevant to her, as an aside of the water as comprehended by a fish. This is the blogger describes himself: “John Davis (1953 — ) is a retired public official and international lawyer and writes on current gender issues.” I don’t respect any ‘thinker’ who uses the enemy vocab term gender. That Windows OS mind is already compromised. If a true personhood, I don’t think he knows what risk he is taking, or he is old enough to not care: 65/6. Spanish inquisition and 80-year war for Dutch independence, an apropos yardstick. It gets worse. The Spanish Empire was after the 700 years it too to repeal camels from Iberia to all the start of the Spanish Empire. The naivety of average alt-right is breathtaking for this student of history, and psychology. Breathtaking. Popularity really does water down something good. I notice no one has made a rejoinder to my fundamental observation. At least you folks are above empty GE-esque insults. If rather you had some misdirected fighting spirit within yourselves, it might be an improvement.
@bigjohn33 says, “This advice isn’t really helpful though. Yes it’s all true but it’s like telling a man not to judge a woman by her looks. Good advice but has no effect on who he’s attracted to.” You are absolutely correct, sir. And I venture to guess that your comment is not helpful to the virtual denizens here who down purple pills like thirty-something liberated women down SSRIs. It’s on them. Utterly breathtaking. But when I need a break from meatspace oppression, I come out and play and try. As others have said, you can’t make someone take the red pill, can’t make someone unplug. Time is ticking, gents. You are running out of time to learn. Macron of Still There, the NZ Hag, and BIG TECH are coming, which is to say the manifest noose is tightening. They see red pill and they are adjusting their institutionalized strike forces to neutralize it. Time to rebrand?
Did I mention history? This is not the Great Depression, not that easy. Not gonna blow over. But you’ll be in heaven, so who cares? Goodbye to marriage, family, country: earthly treasures to be sure. You have already decided, and at most, as the Oracle said, you want to know why you chose to surrender marriage, family, country. Red pill is not for whiners. Back to meatspace. Thanks for everyone’s steadfast capitulation. Everything on earth is irrelevant until the prophecy of Revelation is fulfilled. Let us with our aggressive pacifism and wisdom help the NWO establish their horrific system and pray that there’s got to be a hell. Amen. You. Can’t. Be. Wrong.
Lol @feministhater blackpilling.
@mike
I didn’t say men shouldn’t go to college. If men are smart and can major in something worthwhile then they definitely should go to college. Im saying young women shouldn’t go to college. College boys are not ideal husband material. They may eventually grow into good men but young women don’t have time to wait around and find out. Young women should focus their attention on 25-30 year old men who are established and can provide and support a family. You can find those men anywhere.
You say you are opposed to feminism but you advocate the feminist life path. You would encourage young women to pay $40k a year for college and have a career. You say you have nothing wrong with lower income people but you refer to them as losers. That kind of elitist crap only exacerbates hypergamy. An average woman would be lucky to have a family with an average man.
And no. Women, regardless of how intelligent they are, are generally not capable of making good decisions for themselves. That is the lie at the root of feminism. Women need men to control them.
Another thing that Christian parents of teenage daughters need to be aware of is the propaganda about education and career that makes women feel like they would be missing out by getting married and having children instead of going to grad school or 80 hours a week at a law firm or something.
A lot of times the parents actually try and dissuade their daughters from getting married in their early twenties for this reason. Especially if their daughter gets really good grades. And it’s not always bitter feminist mothers who try and steer their daughters away from (in their minds) making the same mistakes they did by throwing away their “potential” to be a wife and mom. I’ve seen fathers do this (usually because they don’t want their daughter to “have to depend on a man”).
People still have not caught on to the fact that despite the complaining about how wives are expected to do degrading things like stay home, take care of the kids, and cook while men “have the privilege” of going out and working, heterosexual women don’t actually want to be the breadwinner of the house. It would probably help society (and young women) a great deal if that contradiction were pointed out to them early and often.
It’s good for a laugh though. Life is but a stepping stone to something far better. I care naught for this blue ball. If it burns, it burns.
Until society gets it act together and restricts women’s hypergamy, that is the direction it will take. No amount of feeble advice changes this.
Sorry Dalrock but ‘quality guys’ are only attractive to women that actually want to be wives and mothers, the vast majority don’t and want fun and career firstly.
And they are only physically attractive if the woman isn’t exposed to massive social media and has an awareness of reality (which welfare, student loan debt, and make-work jobs do a good job preventing); otherwise the ‘quality guys’ are just boring.
Any trad 20 year old can sign up to eharmony and put in her profile that she wants to homeschool her kids and support her husband, and she can pick from across the country any of the conservative IT guys that stay in shape and have large savings.
But this is the reality from a real conservation:
27 year old girl in the Midwest, set her profile as open to nationwide matches, paying a monthly subscription to a dating site.
Her: I’m a big proponent for honesty. Obviously, my principal desire is to follow God’s will for my life, but for now, my 5-10 year plan is to stay in this area close to my family, save up for a house/land, further my career, and start getting involved in foster care. First by volunteering and offering respite care to foster parents then eventually going through the training myself. I realize you live fairly far away, so if your own plans don’t really line up with that then I wouldn’t want to waste your time further.
Me: Sounds like your plan doesn’t leave a lot of room for marriage and family.
Her: It’s true that I live a very full life. I don’t believe in putting it on hold til I find someone with similar goals/beliefs that wants to settle down. As far as my career, if I ever married and started a family I’d most likely switch to part time or contract work. Given the mental nature of my work (and the fact I’m not a native speaker) if I don’t use it, I lose it. I’d want to keep my hand in. If you’re looking for someone with more conservative views (aka someone wanting to be a full time SAHM) I understand.
Wonderful post…. i will be quietly sharing it.
For those that take issue with the line that
“good men are hard to find”
(& possibly similar statements), it is tempting for me to agree that this may be an exaggeration or even wrong. HOWEVER it is exactly the aditude that a young woman needs to have in order to have an optimizing mindset and get the best results.
“Good men are hard to find” needs to be firmly fixed in a womans mind BUT not as an excuse to slack off on the hunt….
If she is truly marrage minded then “good men are hard to find” could be the lash that will spur her to work harder to find that good man.
As Rollo (& others) have said, Men should have an abundance mindset to avoid “one-itus” which reduces his attractiveness or could cause him to commit to a bad relationship (an investment with high liabilities). I think, in the same way a woman should firmly baleave that a quality man is available to her, BUT she must be the one to put in the work to find him AND SOON.
Guys today need to crank up the alpha. You will immediately stand out above the crowd, if you do.
Things are that bad.
ACTIONS:
STFU, stop complaining, stop apologizing, delete deference, put yourself first, lift weights, fast and lose weight, buy new wardrobe, hygiene, make more money.
Ladies need to crank up the femininity. You will immediately stand out above the crowd, if you do.
Things are that bad, and only getting worse.
ACTIONS:
Stop complaining, stop bragging about your degrees, titles and salary because nobody cares, hit the gym, fast and lose weight, grow your hair long, wear skirts and dresses, hygiene, learn to like babies and children again.
Also crank up the feminine virtue (assuming you have any left), namely:
– modesty
– gracefulness
– politeness
– affability
– delicacy
– civility
– compliancy (obedience)
– reticence
– chastity
– purity
The cock carousel tends to erode away all of these permanently from the ladies.
What a shocker!
Cause, I’d like to introduce you to Effect. Effect, meet Cause.
This isn’t true. Saying that men aren’t attractive enough to attract today’s modern woman is simply fact. Men are getting less attractive in relation to the relative status and attractiveness of women. Most men can’t even bring beta bux to the table, couldn’t even if they wanted to.
Yep, this is the fact. Men are in steep decline relative to women, especially in the under 35 set, when you take into account what women find attractive (men often overlook this because they project onto women their own attraction standards, which is of course a mistake — red pill 101 there).
Try this; “Most women are fat and no amount of male attractiveness will change that.”
This might be true, but if it is, it does not negate what I said: That most men aren’t attractive enough to attract a woman and keep her attracted for 30 years or more.
Yes, because attraction standards are different. Men project this onto women in saying that men are more attractive because too many women are fat (stats say somewhat higher obesity levels among men than women, but anyway … https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/adult-overweightobesity-rate-by-gender/?currentTimeframe=0&selectedDistributions=male–female&selectedRows=%7B%22wrapups%22:%7B%22united-states%22:%7B%7D%7D%7D&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D ) , but the point is that what women find attractive in men is in very short supply among men under 30, even under 40. Just isn’t there in a significant supply.
=====
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/marriage-has-become-a-trophy?utm_source=pocket-newtab
Yes marriage has become a capstone rather than a building block — that’s true. It is the result of a gradual trend. It’s also been the case in Europe for some time.
=====
Within Christian circles, I suggest that this is not even a last resort, it’s almost accepted when they’re young that they’ll marry that kind of man, hence the whole “get it out of your system” and then get married mentality that Dalrock has mentioned in recent posts.
Well I think that any young woman knows when looking around her in church that the kinds of men that are church attending devout Christians in her age range are simply not attractive men. SO she knows that when the appointed age of marriage comes along later in the 20s, per what Daddy told her she should do, if she wants to marry a Christian it will be likely one of these types. That certainly is very disappointing for her, and that’s very understandable (the unattractive men who tend to be devout and attending church at that age range see things differently, of course, which is also understandable, but you can’t make someone be attracted to you … you have to actually *be* attractive … again red pill 101).
@mike
Your materialism is disgusting. It makes me cringe. Uneducated women don’t get divorced. Uneducated women are happy. Uneducated women don’t have poisonous educated friends.
I was watching colony because i enjoy stories where quislings get killed. The wife is asked why she opened a bar. Her response is she wanted her children to see her as more than a wife and a mother. This is the biggest nonsense of the age. The women i respect most in my life wife and mother first. To the extent they do other things it’s to fill their hands.
This is the attitude from education, from entertainment, from social media. You should protect your kids from this before they are properly prepared to deal with it. But no matter how properly prepared they are you don’t actively throw them in the path of the bullets. That’s just boomer nonsense.
@Deti,
“Men are getting less attractive in relation to the relative status and attractiveness of women.”
I absolutely couldn’t disagree more. It’s females attractiveness that has plummeted which gives a merely thin woman such an extraordinary amount of options that she becomes paralyzed with the hilarious minutia in regards to her new demands.
Female obesity alone blows your whole statement to smithereens.
Also, ask E.E, Latin, and Asian women about Anglo-American males attractiveness. And attractive women in those demographics outnumber Anglo-Am women by about 20-to-1.
But, still go with “Men’s fault.” “Man Up” and your RS McCain-style indirect alpha proclamation is a hanging curveball.
All in all, it’s hopeless. Even a Dalrock, manosphere stalwart commenter runs with “It’s men’s fault” at the end of the day.
U.S. births down across all racial groups (despite improving economy): https://apnews.com/0463abca6436472cb44176602078b24f
I’m nearly obese as an avid weightlifter, so there’s that. Also, to think that the obesity study doesn’t skew in favor of women in our female imperative world, is quite an assumption.
If male attractiveness is in such low supply, then why don’t women around the world think so in regards to American men? Female demands have gone so far through the roof here that (if you accept their standards obediently, as you have done) then I guess you’re right in saying that good men are in low supply. So 6’4″ millionaire, badboy poet athlete standup comedians are in short supply. Okay. What if we men had the leverage to demand 5’10” frugal, quiet, funny women with 38-24-34 measurements, long hair, doe eyes, who are great cooks and like to watch sports. We’d be disappointed too. And clowns like you would misread the situation as; “There just aren’t enough good women, plain and simple.” If there were an overabundance of good women, men would ratchet up their expectations. I don’t know if you’ll understand why, but I can tell you that you are absolutely, perfectly wrong. You have the whole scenario inverted. The gender that ramps up their expectations so that they are always disappointed is the one that has the massive advantage (being outnumbered in terms of attractiveness, thus giving them a bounty of choice). Most men I know, some millionaires, simply want a women who is physically healthy and not insane. They are ALL disappointed in their search thanks to the dregs of the world that American women have become. Let me try one last thing to get you two to wake up. In a culture, the more thirsty gender is the one that has an overabundance of attractive candidates. That’s simple mathematical logic. Try to understand that. Or imagine a global earthquake that forced all people to congregate in say, Australia. We’re all down there and able to bring with us our current looks, education, wealth, status and means. Then you’ll see how attractive or unattractive American men are. American female warpigs would be paired off with guys from New Guinea. American men would be complaining about the pointy elbows of Slavic tens.
@novaseeker
At least on the female end its more possible to preserve chastity whilst securing the materialist end. If they are willing to marry an older man who is more established.
@bigjohn33
“Nothing wrong with living in a trailer park”
Dude. Why do you think trailer parks got their bad reputations in the 1st place?
I dont know maybe crime. Feral children from single moms. Welfare leeches. Filthy dwellings.
Cynthia,
That attitude also leads women to ignore the good things that are done for them. They are so focused on what they were “forced” to do that they don’t see the bigger picture at all. Selfishness is not a good foundation for a marriage.
Mike,
You have been completely infected by modern culture. You may want to step back a bit and learn from those who are older with more experience. Though I won’t hold my breath waiting for that.
tteclod,
You are shortsighted. A man should certainly take time investigating anything he is investing himself in, whether it is a job, investment or anything else. He may not be able to guarantee an outcome, but not looking closely is stupid.
I was stupid myself and avoided strong signals I should have paid attention to several decades ago. I hadn’t realized life had changed from what I expected, so I didn’t see the warning flags as seriously as I should have. Saying to not pay attention is a dumb way to approach a key choice in life.
The OP worries about two young men, a guy her daughter met at a “church camp” and an “autistic” her daughter doesn’t like. OP worries over nonsense. Here’s what convinced me that my daughter and her fiance were a good match: he loves her (“as Christ loves the Church”) and would die for her. All the rest is gravy.
Nothing about your daughter’s side here? What happens when that love your future son-in-law has for her requires action on her part? Will she remain faithful or abandon the marriage, likely along with claims he is controlling and therefore abusing her?
You appear to be falling into the bad idea that a man can solve everything if only he is good enough. Though you are probably only concerned about your daughter, not this young man, in reality.
Jake,
Uneducated women are not necessarily faithful today either. Too many expect well above what they really can attract. They have just as much resentment, if not more, when they don’t get the princess lifestyle they think is their due.
John James R,
I would agree with you if you are saying that men can settle for quite a bit less than perfection. Most men definitely have a lower threshold for what they will accept than women do.
======
Some of this “only marry an already successful man” idea completely negates the value that lasted through history – helping a man reach that success. Expecting to reap the fruit of such success without the help is idiotic. It also ignores the Biblical direction to marry rather than burn with passion. Did the man not have passion for the 10 years (or more) prior? Get real. Him having casual sex prior to that is not good for him in the long run either, even if he can get away with it. God’s moral laws are timeless, even in a degenerate society.
Even many here don’t expect a woman to help a man build a marriage and family, they should just reap the benefits of what he does. This will allow many to support the woman when she decides he didn’t reach his potential and she divorces him later in life.
There is no “The Plan”. There’s general guidelines and advice but actually walking with God is truly the only answer. God is there, and while this doesn’t mean a guarantee of things working out like you imagined, He does, as far as I can tell, guarantee that He will make not just His path for known, but also that you will have the motivation (to use a better, older term, desire) to do so and have access to real actual Life. It sounds like a throwaway, but no seriously, there is no counsel against God and statistics mean precious little on an individual basis. You can never smoke a day in your life and get lung cancer. You can get great riches and not deserve a dime. Of course you stack the odds in your favor by not smoking and by making yourself economically valuable to others. But actual faith is the answer and the only way to get access to the guidance that YOU personally need for YOUR specific life. Our lot is not darker than our brothers in the age of Rome or our persecuted contemporaries.
But there is no “The Plan”. It’s a process of becoming who you are meant to be in Christ. I strongly suspects that attempts to get too clever and discover just the right checklist, like life had a cheat code, are doomed to fail.
To inject a little “white pill” in here, we overestimate the hardness of women’s hearts. I’ve brought up the ideas discussed on Dalrock with plenty of women and a LOT are more interested than you might think. They have literally never heard it before. As long as you come at it from the right place, I’ve had many conversations with women over the years where they’ve actually been very receptive. They know what’s up. If they’re screwing around, they know they’re not happy. If they’re not but have been infected by feminism, somewhere deep in their soul they know it’s not good for them. They’re more open than you think.
Jake and Billy,
Rare indeed, that you will find an uneducated younger woman, married. Maybe back in the day this was common. It is far less so, today. And this is across all 50 states. This was discussed at great length in Charles Murray’s book “Coming Apart.” Marriage is (increasingly) only becoming a feature of the wealthiest and the most elite. The average and the below average, the marginal case, very few (newbie) marriages in the United States.
The most important word that you stated is “history.” You are still thinking the way things were done in “history.” Marriage history is nothing like today.
Hypergamy has (almost entirely) done away with the concept of the “cornerstone” marriage. There was once a time, a young couple (each with nothing, no assets, no career, no education, no nothing) would get married. Just like the lyrics from that song from the 1950s. “It was a teenaged wedding and the old folks wished them well.” The motive for such a marriage was (usually) physical lust and fear of eternal damnation. The kids want to fuck, like RIGHT NOW!!!! So they marry (young.) That doesn’t happen anymore. No more “cornerstone” marriages.
Instead, (thanks to hypergamy) what we have today (if there is any marriage AT ALL) is the “capstone” marriage. You need to finish college and get your career going first. You need to own the house first. You need to have already started paying off the student loans. You need to have already bought the car, got the 401K going, and are already a prominent member of the local community. You have to (basically) have a completely “finished” and successful single life before you have the “privilege” of a marriage. This is especially true if you are a male as her hypergamy will judge your accomplishments with every possible and conceivable mathematic calculation. She is not going to “help” build your life, that only happens in a “cornerstone” marriage. Good luck with that.
Hypergamy Über alles.
Some of this “only marry an already successful man” idea completely negates the value that lasted through history – helping a man reach that success. Expecting to reap the fruit of such success without the help is idiotic.
Helping a man build a life is definitely the way to go. A man has to, at a minimum, be in a position to support a family in order to be married. Because of the way boys have been shafted and emasculated over the past 30 years courtesy of the education system (not to mention every other institution heavily influenced by feminism), it has created a situation where most men under 25 just aren’t economically positioned to marry and support a family, whether women are ready or not. And some women are ready at younger ages.
Helping a man build a life is definitely the way to go. My husband was 20 when we married. I was 22. We built our life together. He was not without some stuff to work on of course, same as me. However, he did have a solid job paying more than the average 20-year-old man was making in 1994. He was quite frankly, doing better than me, even though I’d been to college and he hadn’t.
There was a foundation to build on. There has to be one, and too often today there isn’t, from the women either.
You think by telling women not to settle they’re avoiding beta bux marriages destined to fail; all you’re really telling them to do is hold out for “Billionaire actor handyman rockstars”. Modern women and marriage are the best advertisement for arranged marriage going.
We still have a 50:50 mix of men and women. There isn’t a ‘man shortage’. The problem is that the best women today are worse that the worst of a couple generations ago and our culture has taught men unattractive behaviors.
There was a time in the past when women could marry that beta and still be happy and satisfied in marriage; but now the culture gives her unrealistic expectations, encourages women to throw away their marriages instead of working at them, and they are no longer taught to honor, obey, and help their man. No longer does she look up to him and seek to please him because he is her husband. Now he has to be a rockstar bad boy to illicit that kind of behavior.
I do agree that my ideas on this are influenced from the economic backdrop of living in California where it’s almost impossible to find a young man with an income that could support a household. I’m not talking about materialistic, grandiose living. At the bare minimum, a single household in California without housing gifts from the bank of mom and dad will need at least to be earning around 70k. On that point, if you really want your daughter to live a traditional sahm life, then moving your family to an affordable housing state should probably be a key concern. That is, if you want to see your grand kids and still want her to pursue a traditional path.
I should clear up that I don’t believe 70% of women should go to college, not at all. I meant that at least 70% of the female population that actually go to college, should still go due to the economic hardships of this world and the risk of not finding the one by pursuing a young marriage strategy. Teachers and nurses still require a bachelors degree for the most part. And of course, women, even more than men, have much better access to approved pink-collar work that can be had with a technical education: hygienist, court reporter, vet tech, etc. And it should be clear that college doesn’t block the young marriage strategy. Nearly 40% of the women at my christian college were married or engaged at graduation.
Really, if you want to talk tactics for the cornerstone, build a life marriage strategy, then a young woman should go to a christian university and quickly target her equal because he may be overlooked for the first 2 years, but eventually the girls get desperate by senior year.
I agree that looking for a solid christian man between 25-30 can work, but I’m simply saying there aren’t many that will be physically attractive to your daughter, and found in your local church. The function of the christian mating market results in a very low supply of single men like that at church. Yes, she lowers economic risk going for an older man, but as they say: “The odds are good, but the goods are odd”. Saving that, make an account on Okcupid, christianmingle, eharmony. Print out a bunch of profile pictures of men you deem suitable, and see if your daughter likes them. If you change the radius to all of the U.S., you’ll find something decent, but you may have to say goodbye to your daughter . And I’m not a baby boomer. I’m a recent college grad male struggling through the thick of this insane dating world. And my emphasis on college stems in part from seeing how much lower quality the young adult groups are at churches compared to college. If she sits out college to just look at what comes through the church, you may be very disappointed in who she meets. You wouldn’t believe how almost all of these groups have several disgusting, but physically attractive, players fornicating their way through the attractive girls. So it’s not necessarily a safe strategy either. The wolves are feasting.
Mike,
California is just…. $$$$$$$. A colleague of mine, his son graduates Arizona State University last year with a Computer Science degree. He pulls very good grades and gets an entry level programming job (ENTRY level) at $91,000 a year either working for Google or a company that supports Google. So he moves up to the Bay Area. Okay, $91,000 a year, can he afford an apartment? No. No way. The student loan payments are too large and rent is out of reach. Fortunately (for him) he has a beat-up conversion van. So he drives on up to the Bay Area with everything he owns in his van. He gets a gym membership at LA Fitness. And he sleeps in his van. He’ll either park it at a Wal-Mart parking lot or maybe stays right there at the LA Fitness that he showers at every morning before going to work. Homeless on $91,000 a year.
I don’t know if he attends church. I certainly hope he does. The young man needs God in his life, is desperate for God. Joining the right church will put him into a situation where the parish would be made aware of his circumstances and maybe (just maybe) one member has a vacant “in-law-apartment” that they can’t “legally” rent to anyone, but they might be able to let him “use it” (for a tiny fee) then at least he isn’t living in the van.
Point is this: this young man should be a good marriage candidate. His MMV should be pretty high given his physical youth, earning power, and potential future earning power. He is well beyond “cornerstone” marriage, even if he is still miles away from the “capstone.” But given his living circumstances of the Bay Area (and its massive abundance of pure hypergamy), I would peg his current MMV at about zero. There is little chance the young man dates. I mean where is he going to take her? He picks her up when he driver his “house” to wherever she lives?
I suppose on $91,000 a year he could get a roommate and split a 2 bedroom in San Jose. I suppose that is possible. Maybe he’s just cheap and will not part with $2000 a month for “half” an apartment? How long could you live in your car and eat off a hot plate if you had to?
I lived for two months out of a motel, and used a hotplate or portable gas grill to warm up some meat every night for supper. That was also due to a ridiculous rental market
Helping a man build a life is definitely the way to go.
This is where ‘wife goggles’ come from.
@BillyS
I agree that a man with prior casual sex isnt a good idea either.
It may also be therefore a metric of self-control as well as godliness if he chose not to sin with fornication that will help in the assessment of a good husband.
A lot of the prerequisites also must include a healthy church culture. And the company she keeps to counter the prevailing babylonian culture. The consequences that its all for naught increases when the following conditions arent met
Cynthia says:
May 16, 2019 at 9:33 am
Spike
>support him as he builds his life
This is the advice my mother always gave me. When she married my dad, he was still in college and his first job after graduation was working out of someone’s garage. Now he owns his own company.
A big part of me regrets that I couldn’t do this for my husband, who’s older than me and mid-career. But there is a lot of satisfaction doing even small things for him, like making the bed in the morning or having dinner ready when he gets home. I can support him like that right now. He’s working on moving up in his field and I’m glad I’ll be there to take the pressure off him so he can focus on that.
I feel bad for women who have been deluded into thinking that doing something nice for somebody else is slavery. There is a lot of satisfaction in it. It’s just quiet and humble and maybe that’s the problem.
To which I say, Cynthia, simply do what is right and decent. You can’t change the past, but you can make a good future for yourself and those around you. Life isn’t about what you can’t do, but what you can.
Does he have children? If so, model what your son’s future wife should be. If a daughter, model what she should be to her future husband. Yes – husband. Warn children in advance, as I did, that the surrounding culture is going to tell them a heap of garbage about relationships and that marriage will be at the bottom. That didn’t stop my son temporarily going off the rails (“Everything you raised me to believe was a complete F-ing lie”!) until he had his own God-sent epiphany.
One of my co-workers was getting married recently. His manager, a woman, had been asked to say a few words at a toast. She (surprisingly) said, “Here’s to your wife. May she be an accelerator not a handbrake”.
If all women have this mindset, we might – just might- be able to pull Western civilization out of the fire…..
IBB,
There is nothing new under the sun. The modern way will fail, with lots of damage to all. What cannot continue will not continue, even if you are fine with it, at least relatively so. You fail to realize a society cannot be stable on the current foundation. We are running on the fumes of the past.
Mike,
Move out of California. That solves a lot of problems. Still tight with one income, but more doable elsewhere.
Though not being concerned about premarital sex is a big part of the problem too. A women is almost guaranteed not to get “as good” of a man as she has had unrestrained sex with. Thus her expectations will not be realistic nor will she be satisfied with what she gets. That sex may not even be great (before marriage), but it will seem much better in hindsight as time blurs the bad parts.
So instead of having one partner, she just has one after a whole bunch of others. The same is true to an extent from the man’s side, so your ideas there are still lacking. Of course that is the case most times now, but only for a smaller portion of the men and most of the women. Most men go high and dry for those years, since they can’t pull in the casual sex like the women can.
Note too that several here have already noted that churches are a part of this problem, acquiescing to the idea that young women in the church need experience before settling do for marriage, even though a lot of that will be in harmful premarital sex they claim to oppose.
info,
The problem today is that most, even in churches, will assume that man is a loser if he doesn’t have that sexual experience. Bunch of idiots all of them.
Spike,
They don’t. It is far too late for that, unfortunately. Though many are just demanding passengers rather than handbrakes. They don’t help things out. They just raise gas costs (for the extra load) and demand lots of food and breaks along the way, while still expecting the same progress that would be made without any breaks at all.
I just discovered “professional plus-size supermodel” Tess Holiday: https://www.instagram.com/p/BxQw6Q2lJ18/
She apparently made the cover of Cosmo. The image speaks for itself.
A lot of the prerequisites also must include a healthy church culture
BINGO.
Now all that we have to do is find one, however small, feed it spiritual steroids, and hope it spreads like kudzu across the Western world. Anyone have any ideas on how to jumpstart that effort?
Mike,
Move out of California
That’s good generic advice for anybody nowadays, just on GPs. I’ve been trying to get my widowed nonagenarian mother to do that for the last five years and come live with us, but after half a century of living in the Bay Area she’s determined that the only way she’ll leave her house is in a body bag. “The enemy” (i.e., “vibrant culture”) has engulfed her neighborhood, but she’s determined to preserve “the remnant” and her independence no matter how horrible her quality of life. It’s really bizarre, this Californiadoration. I never could understand it. I got the hell out after graduating high school forty years ago and never looked back.
Dalrock’s blog is the only healthy church culture that I am aware of
Dalrock’s blog is the only healthy church culture that I am aware of
That’s been my observation as well.
feeriker, I live in the Los Angeles area. I think of leaving California, but where to go? Years ago, I thought of Seattle or Portland, but I hear they’re increasingly vibrant as well.
BillyS
They don’t. It is far too late for that, unfortunately. Though many are just demanding passengers rather than handbrakes. They don’t help things out. They just raise gas costs (for the extra load) and demand lots of food and breaks along the way, while still expecting the same progress that would be made without any breaks at all.
-Unfortunately Billy, only too true. Your description is apt, but I still am an optimist, largely because God sustains me as such. Civilization, perhaps won’t get saved but there will always be a remnant who doesn’t bow the knee to Baal.
American woman slams British men for being “short and ugly” (but she’s no prize): https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7038275/American-woman-Jenny-Jacobs-explains-vowed-dating-British-men.html
Remarkably, she went on to marry an American man eight years younger. She’s now 37, he’s 29, and he’s a “medical researcher.” I don’t understand how that happened. Big breasts? A very Thirsty Beta?
She did hit the wall very hard, though.
@CRF
She is 19. She should be ready to meet a man in his mid-20s that has already proven he is a man. Her best bet is a mature man who already has a job, a residence, and shown he has the ability to manage his affairs.
That’s rather unrealistic.
“To become the wife of a general, one has to marry a lieutenant.” /old Russian proverb/
@CRF
She is 19. She should be ready to meet a man in his mid-20s that has already proven he is a man. Her best bet is a mature man who already has a job, a residence, and shown he has the ability to manage his affairs.
That’s rather unrealistic.
“To become the wife of a general, one has to marry a lieutenant.” /old Russian proverb/
@CRF
I have to admit that I was probably too quick to react and phrased it poorly. I didn’t mean to say it’s rather unrealistic, but I will say it’s relatively unrealistic. If she immediately disqualifies all, say, 22-24 yr-old men who do not have their own residence yet, who do not have many affairs to manage in the first place, she’ll be in harsh competition with other women for a few eligible men. People who marry young are supposed to build a life, and prosper, together.
@Red Pill Latecomer
Thanks for drawing my attention to the article in the Mail and the comments both for and against are wonderful. It is not that her observations are entirely wrong – it is true our teeth do not appear to be as perfect as yours and we do drink more heavily but one wonders why then she even considered travelling here to interact with one of us and at that a man came from the County of Essex (where they speak Estuary English). Let me put it this way: Her Majesty missed a trick by failing to name Meghan Markle the Duchess of Essex. The Only way is Essex is the British answer to Jersey Shore. It is in Essex that you will find our Kardashians. Both David and Victoria (Posh Spice) Beckham hail from the county. I would have thought Jenny Jacobs would have been well at home.
@BillyS
“The problem today is that most, even in churches, will assume that man is a loser if he doesn’t have that sexual experience. Bunch of idiots all of them.”
It starts with the perversion of the Gospel:
Combined with using carnal means to attract people:
Leads to highly unregenerate congregations and subsequently drawn from the unregenerate pool is unregenerate Elders and Deacons.
@BillyS
The big difference between the real word of God and the phony bastardization is the spiritual power that comes with it. An effective sword of the spirit that convicts.
One attracts the carnal. And the other attracts the already spiritual and makes spiritual through conversion the unbeliever.
@Mike says:
May 16, 2019 at 7:01 pm
“You wouldn’t believe how almost all of these groups have several disgusting, but physically attractive, players fornicating their way through the attractive girls. So it’s not necessarily a safe strategy either. The wolves are feasting.”
Comrades, I must report Comrade Mike for a chivalrous thought and request he be assigned to a reeducation program for retraining in a proper manospherian attitude.
[ PS –Just kidding.]
Feeriker-
Californiadoration.
Its hard to shake, really. My dad moved there in 1961, before I was born. My moms fa,iy moved there from Arkansas in the 50’s.
Both stories of life in California during those decades are just basically awesome. The area I grew up in, Santa Clarita, is nesteled between the San Fernando Valley and the Antelope Valley. Less than an hour to surfing. Less than an hour and half to skiing. In high school, we were insulated from everything “bad” and iimmeresed in everything fun and cool.
In college, I would drive to Malibu to pick up my girlfriend on Firdays, and go with a huge group of friends to Jerrys Famous Deli on Victory Blvd and sit next to movie stars for a second dinner at midnight.
The weather is always perfect.
And, like all good things, it was ruined–by people and their stupid ideas.
Dal,
Your article is of critical importance to young men and women who want to marry. I am consumed about the fact that Rachel’s 19-year-old daughter is STILL in high school, so I wonder if the daughter is herself disabled or something. In any case…
I have written about my personal experiences coaching a group of “youth” male members of my church. I started with 4 guys, and three of them were teens and one of the guys was 22 years old, a bit old to attend a “men’s youth” small group meetings to my great amazement, but he turned out to be a “greater Beta” with a lot of potential (and he has developed). Our little group grew to 11 guys, given I attend a small church (38 members) that is a huge turnout, including guys from different churches that joined in.
Without further ado, I can say comfortably say that out of the 11 guys in my “red pill” Christian youth men’s group meetings, I would definitely say that at least 9 were “marriage material” if I had a daughter over 18 (which I do not). They display the future “success qualities” that women looking to marry seek out in men. Matter of fact, I find quite a few non-Millennial men today to be reasonably good marriageable men, here in my suburban middle-to-upper-middle class area. It is the women that I often find unsuitable.
First, Dalrock has previously addressed the issue of “women marrying young” having a higher divorce rate than women who marry older. One issue that is rarely address is having kids very soon after marrying. I have met with what I consider “purple pilled” Christian elders and ministers that stated that they advise young married couples to delay having children and building a lasting bond between the husband and wife to then add children, which as we all know, are a blessing, but add massive expenses and require a tremendous amount of energy, focus, and time away from husband-wife bonding. One Pastor from a very large (almost 5k members) First Baptist church here in my hometown said he started to keep records going back to the 1980s of all couples he advised over the years and tried to check up on them later in life and he noted in his own “private survey” that young couples that married young and delayed kids at least 3 years and those who had kids right away had a disproportional divorce rate ratio when compared side by side (not factoring other events, like loss of job, infidelity, etc). Incredibly, this Pastor has been advising young couples to delay kids at least 3 years, 5 years if possible, since the 1980s and has announced his retirement next year, so he has a considerable amount of anecdotal evidence of his own in the alter.
Second, we live in a “YOLO” and “FOMO” culture, whereas You Only Live Once and there is always a Fear Of Missing Out. This may also be contributing to higher divorce rate of couples who marry young. Then you throw in the financial stress of having children early on in a marriage, the decimation of the earning power of the middle class across the board, and you can see how a higher divorce rate for young-marrying couples may compare to a couple marrying after college and starting good paying jobs and delaying kids, for instance. Then consider how many young men and women who “marry young” keep having this weird feeling they are missing out on life, missing out on hook-ups, etc. Our society is incredible hedonistic and self-centered. Sacrificing your life for one’s child is not as sexy as traveling to a “hook-up hotel” in Ibiza, for instance. I saw an ad for “Paradise Hotel” on Tucker Carlson tonight, and it is a hookup show (this TV ad ran during a show for Conservatives). Imagine being a young woman, especially an 8 or higher one, who is “sacrificing” her youth and beauty for sake of husband and child when all she sees on TV as women as pretty as her in luxury hotels hooking up with steroid-jacked dudes. That triggers feelings of dissatisfaction and Hypergamy in her. Is this the best I can do, she considers.
Third, I strongly disagree with the idea that there are few young men of prime marriageable age that are high quality in America today. Most young men are romantic and idealistic, yes, even Millennial men. Young men have this idea of true love and all… men are the real romantics in life, at is until they pass thirty years old. This mindset is ingrained in our culture. It is the women who are out there drinking ungodly amounts of alcohol and hooking-up on Tinder or the local Univ frat house. It is easy for a young woman to do so, not so easy for most young man. The shortage is not of quality marriageable men, but of quality marriageable women.
And I can prove that with anecdotal and actual researched evidence. Take a quick trip to your local suburban grocery store or Walmart early in the day and after 5:30pm mid-week. Take a look at the male shoppers there and see what you notice. Women without make-up, messy (often short) hair, wearing pajamas, fresh-out-of-the-gym sweaty, flip flops and acid wash jeans, etc. Now look at the guys, especially the after 5:30pm guys and see the difference in clothing and overall appearance. The guys here in my area come in wearing suits all the time or working clothes while women come in, often from home, no kid, but looking like homeless bums. For further evidence, run a quick online search and look at some local photographer’s wedding photos and take a look at the bride vs groom in these sites. The grooms are often 2-4 points higher in overall appearance than brides much of the time!! How often do you see some decent looking guys with some fat bride or brides with short hair and masculine looks? Walk into any law office run by female lawyers and see the pics of the husbands… the guys are much better quality than the women.
Now let’s consider a place where high value, quality men TRULY are very hard to find, given high rates of deaths in war, incarceration, deaths due to poor health (often due to smoking and alcohol), and financial problems. I am talking about Russia, Ukraine,and Belarus, specifically. Now look at their women; long hair, wearing sexy western dresses, perfect make-up, walking around in high heels, talking about their incredibly cooking and domestic skills, fairly educated, well-read, etc. To attract the top guys in Eastern Europe, the women have to look amazing and be amazing. Competition and the free-market does that.
If women in America truly had to compete for high-quality men like they do in Ukraine or Russia, our women would be as feminine and capable as these girls are in these countries. Instead of our typical Western curses of widespread female obesity, horrific b!tchy attitudes, lack of any domestic skills, raging feminism, and dressing up as if they were fresh out of a homeless shelter. Then you add in the typical lack of sex-appeal and an utterly lack of understanding of basic male attraction and sensuality and you got your cherry on top. If we had a lack of quality men in America, our cities would be filled with high-heels wearing beauties like in Kiev, St, Petersburg, or Dnipro, but instead we have Westminster area of London, Detroit, and Copenhagen type women.
Fourth, Hypergamy in women is a fact of life. Hypergamy does not care whether you like it or not, or whether you whine about it or even believe in it. Hypergamy is very real, well-documented, and an undeniable face of life. A woman who feels her previously “acceptable husband” is now fat, weakened, and lazy will turn on him in due time. Hypergamy is so ingrained in a woman’s brain, she will almost unconsciously begin to seek out men who are of higher value than you, because, in her mind, she is now “too good” for her husband who is now weak, less successful, and fat, for instance. I wrote a review on the movie “Gone Girl”, where you see Hypergamy at its worst and the wife in the movie gives you a perfect example of what happens when she perceives her husband to have “become lazy” and not the guy she married and then what happens when “the guy she married” makes a comeback on national TV and how it all turns for her.
Marriage today means nothing to a woman’s Hypergamy. Back in the day, when marriage was a real lifelong contract between a man and a woman, her Hypergamy was somewhat in-check because she could not just leave and take over 50% of your stuff and put the man in bondage for life, under threat of prison. Today, she can leave and will leave if men are not careful, do not learn Game, and do not understand this out of control Hypergamy issue very real threat.
(Note: Hypergamy, per se, is not evil. It is a natural “survival mechanism” where men and women select the best mate they can possibly get to try to create the most successful offspring, with best chance of survival. Men want the hottest woman they can get and women want the most successful man they can get. It is natural and helpful in some ways. The problem is that today, Hypergamy does not end the day after marriage; it continues in indefinitely, especially for women. That is where it is a problem.)
Fifth and finally, as I have written before in my own site, RedPillChristianty (soon to be re-launched), men and women were not created by God to have so many sexual partners as they do today. Those engaged in this type of “extended courtship” become damaged emotionally and even spiritually ruined. If you have been following the “infamous” RooshV, he has had a drastic and radical conversion from a player/PUA to orthodox, strict Christianity. He even wrote 2 books about this topic, whereas Roosh explains how he has lost the ability to “pair bond” with women due to engaging in sexual congress with so many women over the years. He is sounding the alarm to young men and women who engage in such a lifestyle, as he has, that it will ruin their chances to have a normal life and a happy marriage in the future.
There is also another topic and one I have also researched about and written about and it is what I call the “acceptable minimums” that women will develop over time when they engage in sexual relations with too many men (say over 20 different men by age 30, for the sake of this discussion). Women have a tendency to take a quality or two from each one of these 20 men and demand that her future husband meet all qualities found in each one of these different men. The result is that she will always be dissatisfied with her husband, who as a mere human being, cannot meet the standards this woman has created for herself in her head. No human being can have so many qualities all rolled up into one. She will always compare her current “looooooo-ser” husband with Chad who has a larger penis, Mike who had a nicer face, Tom who makes more money and has a better car, Jim who is taller, Harry who is more athletic and has a 4-pack, and so forth. She will never be satisfied knowing there is “someone better” out there… somewhere.
In some ways, telling a young woman “not to settle” and Not just marry some dude, any dude who will have her, just for marriage-sake and to prevent her from engaging sexually with too many men, is indeed prudent advice. And yet, a balance must be reached where we tell these same girls not to wait too long, because the longer they are “out there” in the “extended season of courtship”, if you will, will become damaged emotionally, become even more demanding, and will lose their #1 asset, which is their beauty. I am sorry to say, but a woman’s beauty is her greatest asset in attracting a man, like it or not, and her personal attractiveness will be critical in determining how many suitors court her, at least in initial stages of meeting. Just as a man’s physical qualities (i.e. Strength, height, eye color, musculature, etc) will also give him a bigger choice of women in his life.
I want to leave y’all with this final thought: seek out a balance between marrying too soon vs too late, meeting a future spouse who meets all his/her requirements, etc. And be sure to marry someone within 2 points of attractiveness from each other (no more, no less or it creates an unstable situation). And please, do not think because you are married that you are “Secure” and can let yourself go physically and forget your Game. Make a concerted effort to stay in good physical shape (especially for women!), dress well for your mate… and men, for Christ’s sake, learn Game, especially Dread and Amused Mastery and keep your relationship healthy. You have to be sure your woman’s Hypergamy does not become a problem during a marriage or you will be facing a one-sided divorce in due time. A marriage is like a plant, you have to water it, protect from freezing, and move it into sunshine to keep it alive and healthy. But sometimes pruning is required and that is where Game comes in.
You, as a man, must do your part to prevent her Hypergamy from getting out of hand. It may not seem like a Christian marriage thing, having to keep a woman’s Hypergamy in check, but you are living in the real world, in a feminized society. Part of being a Red Pilled Christian is to accept reality, however painful and nonBiblical it may be. In the West, when you combine a society that encourages “easy divorce” and legally reward women who divorce frivolously with riches and even status in Christian circles, married women are prime targets for The Devil, who seeks to destroy your family and put men in bondage for decades to come. As a man, you must accept this fact if you want to get married. Period. That burden, along with all the financial risks associated with marriage, are solely on you, the man. It is unfair, but that is reality.
…Dang I wrote too much. I need my site back up… lol
@Spike
My husband doesn’t have any kids. We’re working on that. It worries me, because every woman I know over 30 has had multiple miscarriages. It’ll probably happen to me too. Those are stories I wish I had heard in my teens. But like you said, can’t change where I am, just have to move forward.
A wife should be an accelerator for her husband. I see others in the comments section saying it’s too late to return to that model, and maybe it is. However, out of all those mid-thirties women I know, they all have regrets. Some even say they won’t let their daughters make the same mistakes.
What women need right now, what’ll fix this, is push-back from other women. We need the permission of the group to express the pain we carry with words other than “men suck.” I don’t know how that starts, though.
For most of the history of Christendom, there was a solution to men not being able to control their urges.
They are called brothels.
You may not like it…it may be sinful…but according to St. Augustine and St. Paul, these places prevented worse sins.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
http://www.medievalists.net/2015/07/prostitution-in-the-medieval-city/
I meant St. Thomas Aquinas.
@BillyS @feeriker
I think you will find this helpful:
G2 says: “Social media can work for vetting, it’s truly amazing what folks will put on Farcebook. I also recommend getting an Intelius (or equivalent) account to check for criminal records and such.”
Absolutely, but keep in mind there are limitations. On women, look for arrests, not convictions, and understand that if they plead to a “disorderly conduct” charge, that really means she was arrested for something much worse. But since women in America are virtually immune to personal responsibility for their actions, prosecutors let them off with a minor offense, if any. Her “disturbing the peace” may be a DUI or a violent assault of someone else. Or theft.
As for social media, I know of several women who dated members of my “red pill Christian small young men group” here and these girls set-up a second FB or InstaGram account the moment they decide to find a guy for a “serious relationship” or marriage and lock (or suspend/delete) their old one, which reveals who they really are and their lifestyle.
But you are correct that at the very least, her Social Media will tell you a lot about the woman. One thing to look for is travel, association to certain groups, and photos of her social activity.
Look for her association with Sororities or “like” fraternities. (Huge red flag). Look for association to radical groups, like open borders, hate groups like La Raza, LULAC, and other far left open border groups (especially troubling if she is not Latin). This means she is a radical leftist (even of pretending not to be) and this means she is probably trouble mentally or has ridden more dudes than a Jui-Jitsu fighter. Look for books about radical feminism in her “books I like” and pictures of her with lots of guys. Every Red Pilled dude knows “one of the guys” type girl has ridden it hard.
Travel is the most critical, and if she has traveled to a lot of weird destinations that “make no sense”, ask her in a joking way “why were you going to Louisville, what’s there to do?” If she has no good reason, be suspicious, but do not show it, but know more research will be needed. Check her social media to see if she has been to “party locations” during Spring Break, in particular, like Las Vegas, Cabo, Baja California, San Padre Island, Cancun, Ibiza, New Orleans, Panama City Beach, etc. If she has been to these, be sure that she has ridden the Carrousel long and hard. If she has been to Dubai, read up on “Dubai Porta-Potties” and run from such a woman.
Also, FaceBook is kind of a mixed bag. She can set her profile to “private” the minute she wants to get serious about a husband/LTR. If you have access to a Commercial FB account, you can go into her profile, even if private. 🙂 Also, ask her to add you to her FB, if she says “I do not use it” or whatever, and you know she has a profile, then you know something is up. You are gonna have to spend sometime going through posts, her replies, and pics to see who this girl really is. Look for pictures in parties, drinking like crazy, being “one of the guys”, etc you should be warned. Look for posts about radical political views or lying about her supposed-Christian faith, for instance.
Many times, you will only get the truth by active snooping and surveillance her cell phone and accounts. Thanks to face recognition and fingerprint locks, these cells should be easy to do when your woman is passed out from drinking at your place late night (which if she is American, that will be every weekend). The other option is setting up a key logger on her PC if her phone is a no-go. That will open up her e-mails, passwords for all accounts (including social media) and therefore, the truth.
Just be prepared for what you will find. I have seen plenty of YT videos of guys finding out who their GFs really are and they are shocked.
To quote RooshV: “do not trust any woman anywhere”. To quote The Bible: “Do not trust a neighbor; even the woman who lies in your embrace, guard the words of your lips” Micah 7:5
—
American: Yes, birth rates are down across all demographics, except illegal aliens who are flooding into the country by the tens of thousands, every single day, unimpeded. Throngs of people, who are totally unskilled, who can barely speak their own native language, and are barely-literate, who are poor, will pay $0 taxes, and will collect tens of thousands in welfare will somehow “rescue” the Ponzi scheme of Social Security? Lol Laughable. This plan is seriously flawed, as only people who earn money and pay taxes contribute to such funds like SS. Illegals work for cash and draw an average of $42k a year if they pop a kid inside the US. Americans, even poorest ones, do not have these benefits, not even close.
Another reason is likely because men are not marrying and because being a “dad” is a horrible deal in America. It is guaranteed slavery of child-support for the next 18-24 years. It is no guarantee you will ever see your child and even if your child is abused, you have no rights. You only have the right to write the check. And if you do not, you go to jail. Who is up for that?
If American businesses and politicians are counting on poor, illiterate illegal aliens from Central America, Africa, and the Middle East to “save” the economy and increase birth rates, I say invest a good portion of your money abroad. That is probably another reason Americans do not want to have kids anymore… they see a grim future ahead in a country that is hyper polarized, angry, “diverse”, and getting poorer by the day, Trump has simply stabilized things to buy the country time, to see if we can get it together. But the future and long-term prospects for our country sure are grim. Even worse in Europe, especially in UK, Sweden, Belgium, and France. My money is on Eastern Europe and SE Asia.
What women need right now, what’ll fix this, is push-back from other women.
Amen to that. As you ask, though, how will that start happening? Is it dependent upon a majority of women suffering from the effects of adhering to the status quo for such time that they “awaken” en masse and push for change? Somehow that seems unlikely.
There’s a mindset that I think can be very helpful in conducting this manhunt: generosity with God.
I think it’s incredibly important to be open to all of the possibilities: that God isn’t calling you to marriage, that God is calling you to marriage with someone unexpected, etc. I don’t mean that one should just wait around and do nothing, but I think that if one is generous with God in giving the men who he has put in your life a chance and giving a life dedicated solely to God a chance, then good things will happen. It needs to be genuine generosity, not just a tool to make God give you the man you want, but genuine generosity is always rewarded by God with an even greater generosity, if not always in the expected ways.
info,
I grew in the Lord under Kenneth Copeland and similar preachers. They instilled in me a firm conviction that God’s Word is true and the basis for all we do in life. I have diverged from much of that in the past couple decades, but the ideas remain completely valid and are not the perversion some claim. The focus on “stuff” is the problem, not the belief God is good. Much of the “failure” in those areas was a failure to use other principles, such as living within our means, taking care of our bodies, etc.
That had nothing to do with the idea that young women should slut it up however. That is completely independent of any specific message. It is an expectation of too many today, including those who preach otherwise. (They almost always blame men for the problem as well, taking the focus of the control spot.)
I am personally not a fan of Joel Osteen, though I did like his dad, John Osteen somewhat. The preaching style wasn’t my cup of tea all the time, but the messages fit what is Written from what I recall.
Though this just goes to show how hard it is to raise the next generation. Even King David blew it in that way, so it is an unfortunate pattern in life and the Scriptures.
@John James R
Those are some great posts, and I think what you wrote is almost entirely true. However, I believe you’re misunderstanding what thedeti was saying. He said the relative attractiveness of men has dropped in relation to that of women. That’s a different argument than saying the absolute or objective attractiveness of men has dropped. As far as I cant tell, his comments are completely in line with yours, although he could chime in with different thoughts.
Anyway, you just basically explained why his comments are true. In the US, I’m nothing. Elsewhere, I might be something. My relative attractiveness in the US is low. Women’s relative attractiveness in the US is high. That’s the reason women are in such demand here. Besides obesity like you accurately mentioned, one could add in tattoos, feminism, unwed motherhood, and female promiscuity for reasons women in the US have such low value and therefore, so many options for men here, especially the decent women.
*can tell
@BillyS
Actually, I worry about my daughter’s beau much more than I worry about my daughter.
@Hank,
But it’s the surplus of good men that gives them low value, not the surplus of good women. This isn’t a situation where women have so vastly outpaced men that we’re not keeping up with their greatness. That’s the illusion you end up with when one gender (in our case, USA–males) provides so many more attractive candidates. The less attractive gender (in number of attractive candidates, in our case, USA–female) gets to be more selective. The insane levels of selectivity by the females in the USA right now only speaks to how paltry their numbers are in terms of providing attractive candidates. So the whole thing is turned upside down. I’m sure some fat, ugly, small town, drunken thug in Russia is right now dumping a 5’9″, long-haired, thin knockout because her nose is just a tad too big. Once again, let the whole world mingle in one solid block of land and then we’d see. Bring a Brazilian up from Sao Paulo and have him spend a year in Seattle. He’ll fly back home after that year, simply stunned with how awful the women were. I know because I’ve been a witness to that exact scenario. If there were only one woman in all of America, along with 300 million men, do you think she’d be kinda selective? Funny, but that scenario would produce a woman whose selectivity hardly differs from any given 7 (international 4, btw) with a master’s degree.
2nd try:first got spammed
I see a few here talking about arranging marriages.
It seems very defeatist to me to just give up and assume you cannot teach your daughter to follow your lead in finding a mate for her. I am no alpha and have rudimentary understanding of Game via Vox’s blog and Roissy’s blog. Yet, I was able to take the driver’s seat in getting two daughters married. The first was closer to a courtship but with strict rules set by myself. The second was a full on arranged marriage. The couple did not have any kind of romantic relationship with each other before the wedding. While not strangers (due to the questionnaire, they knew tons about each other), they were something better than acquaintances.
A fundamental belief I have which is confirmed by Game is that women make terrible choices in love/marriage. Statistics and tropes show that the preceding statement is true: Harley McBadboy. For this reason, she has parents and a father. There’s just no way the father can make a worse decision than she can. This whole situation appears to be by design as the Scriptures confirm the authority and responsibility of the father over his daughter. In addition, both Esther and Ruth had authorities advice/direct their actions. I do believe those are far from the best examples in Scripture for us. Rather we look at the norm: something closer to Rebekah. The men were in charge of the search and negotiations.
I don’t understand how a father won’t allow his daughter to buy a freakin’ used car without his total control over the process, but will barely lift a finger when it comes to her marriage choice/search. Was she your daughter her whole life?
Dalrock has done a good work pointing out the history of the courtly love error. We have to renew our minds and it’s our duty as fathers and leaders to take care of this in our own children. As a wise man likes to say: home school or die. Yes, home schooling is instrumental in arranging a marriage, but I also believe that even that can be overcome. The biggest hurdle is being willing to completely change our way of thinking to align with Scripture on this subject. It’s a lot like trying to understand love without the courtly love model. We’re so steeped in it, we can hardly imagine an alternative.
@Höllenhund,
I didn’t mean to say it’s rather unrealistic, but I will say it’s relatively unrealistic. If she immediately disqualifies all, say, 22-24 yr-old men who do not have their own residence yet, who do not have many affairs to manage in the first place, she’ll be in harsh competition with other women for a few eligible men. People who marry young are supposed to build a life, and prosper, together.
If a 22-24 year old man has a job that can support himself and a wife and kids, I would bless my daughter’s decision to marry him. I want her to use wisdom in picking a spouse, and I believe it is wise for a young woman to marry a man who has proven himself ready to take on the responsibility of marriage. I know few people think or act this way in the modern world, but it is how things used to be. Can still be. Young women have always been in harsh competition for a few eligible men.
That is what I am raising my son to do. Get his life in order and then find a young woman ready to marry and be a Godly wife and mother. That is marrying young and building a life together.
Scott,
Kind of reinforces that worldly prosperity without a full intentional focus on God (which did not happen in the 1950s) will lead to bad things. California has some nice climate, but horrid everything else today.
DC,
Where did the Apostle Paul say brothels were better than worse sin? Augustine might have, but he had a bit of a messed up life and is not Scripture.
Sam,
The problem is not what you teach your daughter, it is that all of society is undermining any such sound teaching and your work is almost certainly not going to work. That is a problem that is not solvable today.
@ BillyS
I think that all of society is stacked against us doing what is right. This is why I ordered my whole entire household around Scriptural principles that work with the design of men, women, marriage, children, sons, daughters, nuclear family, and extended family. This created the support structures necessary to be successful in getting my whole family following my lead. You too can do this, but it won’t be without sacrifice. The world’s way does not work and is anti-civilization. Turning away from this way makes you look different to the world.
If you’re not clear on this, the blog linked in my name tells the story of my daughter’s arranged marriage. This happened in 2015 and she now has two children, thus far. Her husband is a great guy.
@BillyS
The point is with this sermon. Is actually whether one is born again or not. Whether one has actually received the baptism of the holy spirit.
That makes the majority of the difference in the congregation and among the church. Because they will be different from the world. And they will not remain in the traps the modern world has set for them. Because God will deliver them from deception. And provide the means of obedience.
The analogy of the hog and a human is a good analogy for this. The hog is content to eat garbage. And the unsaved can be content in sin and deception.
But God’s people cannot swallow the garbage of this world without vomiting it out. They cannot sin without conscience being pricked. Nor can they escape the discipline of God. As David was scourged for his sins. And subject to fiery trials to perfect his soul even prior to the sin of Bathsheba.
I don’t understand how a father won’t allow his daughter to buy a freakin’ used car without his total control over the process, but will barely lift a finger when it comes to her marriage choice/search. Was she your daughter her whole life?
It goes back to what I said upthread about “Lazy Parent Syndrome.” In this case, Daddy can say “NO!” to his spoiled little princess bitch when it comes to her wanting to buy a used beater because it’s only money, a relatively trivial issue, and he knows she’ll get over it relatively soon, even after throwing a juvenile hissy fit.
Trying to control her marriage decision, however, is something Daddy knows will get ugly if he tries to stop spoiled little princess bitch from getting her way. He knows that she’ll melt down and go full-on feral rebellious, probably getting Harley McBadboy/Fuckbuddy Rockdrummer to knock her up, her way of vicariously cuckholding her Daddy while giving him the middle finger, forcing him to “bless” her choice of a husband. The last thing in the world Daddy wants to endure is that kind of familial ugliness, so, not wanting to invite drama that will probably give him a coronary, he caves in to her manipulation (unfortunately, he doesn’t live in a country whose laws are dominated by something like Saudi Arabia’s Wahhabi Islam, that would let him take control of the situation).
@ feeriker
quote: “It goes back to what I said upthread about “Lazy Parent Syndrome.””
I kind of disagree a bit in the nature of the problem and analysis here. First off, I am the laziest parent I know and the laziest parent my wife knows. I think the issues in the car vs. man search are closer related to preparations with the daughter. The reason the car search works the way it does is a couple of things. First, this is the position dad has held since daughter’s birth: he will do the car buying/selecting/judging. Second, society is programmed to expect this so there is no social push back on dad’s “control freak ways”. So, it is far easier to keep daughter in line on this and dad isn’t losing points with all his friends, acquaintances, church members. But the daughter does submit, generally.
Conversely, when dad is to step into the primary role of the search and selection process the push back is severe. But if this was his position/intention from before his daughter’s birth, and/or he has been very carefully leading his daughter all her life and decides on this a little later, but fairly early in her puberty, then he has laid the groundwork with the daughter. She has expected this, just as the car buying. The second push back is society. People he respects (but maybe should not), family, friends, church people, all will look at him funny. There is tremendous pressure. Oh well. Did you think doing right was going to be easy? So, I believe the issues are more related to planning and being able to ignore social pressures in order to do right. Yeah, people look at you funny.
Extra commentary: I think it’s really frustrating/entertaining to see people saying essentially (in regards to getting their children reared and married), “How can I do this exactly just like the world, but get different results?” Folks, it takes sacrifice to get different results.
Quick advice:
1. homeschool or die
2. reject the courtly love model and teach marriage as permanent and commitment based
3. take full charge yourself
John James, the women in Brazil are appalling and they are extremely lazy and entitled, so yes, the pathetic leftist women in a place like Seattle would be a huge improvement for a Brazilian man. Brazil female beauty is grossly overrated; while it is true that are “hot women” there, we are talking 8-rated body on a 2-rated face being the common denominator. Radical Feminism in Brazil is codified into law there. Look up “Lei Maria Da Penha” and learn how men are guaranteed prison time for unspecified crimes of “mental anguish”, “failure to provide adequate living conditions” (failure to giving women money when they want it), and “moral and emotional harm” are all felonies. They also have a law permitting women to physically batter men, even in public, if the woman is acting in “self defense” when she feel afflicted by physical, emotional, moral, or mental anguish. Then ask any poor Western sap who marries a Brazilian woman and what they have experienced. I can promise you this, if you talk to actual people married to Brazilian women, they will have a hard time finding any positives about her and likely now live in fear of a divorce and poverty. Brazilian brand of feminism makes Rosie O’Donnell seem like Mary Sunshine. Having a Brazilian woman in your life that is not covered in tattoos like a biker gangster and who is not physically violent when she gets even slightly irritated is considered a luxury in Brazil these days.
As for Russia, been there a few years back, more recently to Ukraine. A woman in Western Russia who is below a 7 in looks is like a piece of furniture and virtually invisible there. That is the level of femininity and beauty we are stalking about here. The women in these countries are simply stunning because, unlike America, the guys there are pretty busted and are indeed of low marriageable, hell even low dating value. The competition for women there to find a “decent guy” to even date is exceptionally bad. You can see the free market at work when few quality men exist in a society, forcing the women to become feminine and stunning and develop amazing homemaking skills. Ukrainian women are also great moms, from what I have seen. Watching the young Ukrainian moms wearing cute dresses, wth their long, flowing hair and svelte figures there pushing a stroller, just full of pride was an incredibly enjoyable experience for me.
But would these women hold up their value when moved into a feminist hell like America or UK or Canada? I am not so sure. But in their home environment, these women are simply superb, I almost got engaged in Ukraine once, but knowing I cannot stay in Ukraine permanently, I passed. I have to admit, I was indeed smitten by some of the girls I met there.
It is all about perspective and point of view. As you said, a Russian man coming here would be disgusted and appalled by the low quality of our women and find himself in an even harder time finding a quality woman here in USA, because our women expect a 10-man when they are a 3-woman. American women here are so entitled and privileged to have such a large supply of quality men and to have laws that protect them from virtually any legal liability for any of their worst behaviors.
Feeriker, preach on, brother. And yeah, American parents almost never say “no” to their daughters. American young women are raised to be feral, while the men are raised by be chivalrous cucks. One of Dal’s best articles is on this very topic: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/11/21/overcivilized-men-uncivilized-women/
A must read.
To clarify, I am 100% pro-marriage btw, since marriage is an institution created by God Himself in Genesis. I am for marriage so long as American (and Western men in general) are 100% fully aware and informed that as men, they bear 100% of the financial risks and that if she decides to divorce him frivolously, he will end up poor, broke, and in jail if he fails to meet a judge’s orders to fund her new freewheeling lifestyle. Full disclosure should be required for all men before they enter into a marriage contract in the West, just as full disclosure is required on all commercial contracts (even a simple credit card has a full disclosure of all terms up front, before you can even sign up for the card).
As long as men fully understand marriage to be a one-sided deal where they have no legal rights, only obligations, I am 100% all for marriage. I just do not think men should be lied to about the whole thing and then be surprised to learn how the system really works later in court. Full disclosure and transparency are required in a free and fair society. The men who chose to marry do so with full knowledge of the consequences of forgetting his Game and the absolute power women have over him using the legal systems, i.e. police powers and courts.
Ps. Did you fellas see the crown Princess Martha of Norway recently cheated on, and then divorced her quality, faithful husband of 14 years (and father of her children), “just because” and went in to hook-up with an American Shaman, a satanic priest, just for the hell of it? Great example of how marriage in Western countries are a one-sided deal all the way. The Norwegian leftist press is gushing all over the Princess for her boldness and full utilization of their feminist legal system. Princess is literally taunting men and mocking people who criticize her for exercising her feminist privilege and laughing it up she openly cucked her husband.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/princess-martha-louise-of-norway-american-boyfriend
Feminist laws showing their claws in full view of the planet is one of the best things ever for full disclosure of the realities of the disposability of marriage today.
Keep an eye on Beta cuck Harry and Meghan Merkel for next big royal divorce. He did not even bother to get a Prenup, since his FB followers asked Harry not to do so. lol
Sam, are you in the US? You stand up to your daughter, unless she is truly meek and an uniquely sweet girl (generally, pre-teen), she will not “submit”. She will probably call the cops on you, for “abusing her”. Dad not arrested as this is a conservative area of Ohio and cops sided with the father.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/ohio-teen-calls-cops-after-father-takes-away-her-cell-phone
One Texas dad was actually criminally tried for taking his lil princess’ cell phone. How dare he!
https://www.cnet.com/news/dad-who-confiscated-daughters-iphone-acquitted-on-theft-charge/
He only beat the charge because he was in Texas, a largely Conservative State. If these two dads had been in New York or California, they would have gotten jail time for sure. No man better dare take away a woman’s priviledge and “right” to an iPhone. Period.
Sam, what are you talking about?
@Red Pill Christianity
Pre-Nups are not legally enforcable in England as one may not exclude the jurisdiction of the Court however The Royal Family being sufficiently wealthy and the Courts merely concerned with placing the woman in the situation she would have been in had their been no divorce the settlement will not be that onerous for Her Majesty. That yacht-girl Meghan has Harry’s testicle in her purse is however not in question, nor in my view is the fact that she has not been pregnant anytime recently for the baby she produced was a doll. Maybe there is a surrogate or perhaps she is importing one like do all good liberals from the heart of darkness itself. No birth certificate and a fake one produced – just like, so I understand POTUS 44.
Gosh I am happy to not be married. You guys just keep gracing me with stories of the hell that awaits the man stupid enough to get married and I cannot thank you enough. Thank you gents! And a good night!
@ Red Pill
As I stated before, the groundwork for being a leader in your home is laid from the beginning. Was she your daughter her whole life? Every son and daughter is a born sinner. That’s for fatherly training to fix!
I am no alpha, yet I managed to plan and have the desired results with my daughters. While doing things the way I line out in my blog is no guarantee for things turning out perfect, doing things the normal way is pretty much asking for the news stories you linked to happen to you. You better be in fear of your wife and daughters if you do things the mainstream way!
As for legal repercussions and dangers, I have been well aware of and studied such things since about 1995.
@ Feministhater
I guess you could give up on marriage and family… But I think if your foundations for the marriage are solid, the selection of your woman is made on more qualifications than just the shape of her derriere, your leadership is strong (ignoring the taunts of fearful men), and your plan is to do things in a way that is right rather than mainstream, you stand a good chance of carrying on civilization.
@RPC
I agree with your post and I’m glad that someone finally understands the dynamic in the USA. The surplus of attractive candidates of one gender makes the lesser gender even more bratty and demanding. 200 pound ogres with 3 kids, tats and zero femininity are turning down men who are in the 1 percentile internationally. Yet, even guys in manosphere don’t seem to know what I’m talking about. A 5’10”, lean, ‘nerd’ who makes 95k in America with no tats, decent ‘nice guy’ looks is a MAJOR catch around the world. And no, not because the women around the world are of less quality, but because they are of much higher quality, while men around the world are spoiled and don’t match up to our local nerd. Yet here, the nerd is told to ‘Man Up’ ‘Learn Game’ ‘Master the Dark Triad’ etc all to land an international 5 who is knocking down Haagen-Dazs and swiping left on Tinder all night, breaking wind openly and weighing 200 pounds.
We can’t forget that men compete with men, women compete with women. That concept seems to get mixed up around here.
I lived in Brazil from 1998-2000 and have to say that I have no idea what you’re talking about on that, outside of the fact that it must have changed an awful lot. And the Sao Paulo guy (also late 90’s scenario) was disgusted by Seattle women, not the other way around as you read it. I’ve heard that feminism/obesity cocktail has gained a lot of steam down there so it’d be interesting to go back and see how it’s changed. But late 90’s Brazil was an avalanche of thin, sporty, long-haired uber-feminine beauties. I have heard that they don’t make the greatest wives. The only Brazilian I currently know in the US is a dream. Great wife, healthy, feminine. Were you there recently or is it just what you’ve read?
Also,
LOL at the Norwegian Princess who left her nice Prince (Prince!) to mudshark with a “shaman.” Sadly, that happened to a buddy recently. His ex is with a “Shaman” guru type as well. And my buddy is the most solid, decent man I know. How many millions of times is this script going to play out like this? I know that this isn’t the place to discuss nefarious ways to lay a lot of women but going full-on into some sort of phony guru-shaman larping would really lead to some fun. Shamanism might be the new ‘game.’
John James R
But it’s the surplus of good men that gives them low value, not the surplus of good women. This isn’t a situation where women have so vastly outpaced men that we’re not keeping up with their greatness. That’s the illusion you end up with when one gender (in our case, USA–males) provides so many more attractive candidates…
I know.
@Red Pill Christianity
That’s just defeatism. A girl who is well raised by her parents is not going to call the cops for getting her cell phone taken away; the very thought to do so won’t even occur to her, and if told of that she’d be horrified by the idea.
That kind of thing happens when a child has no limits in life and is raised by the schools/culture and then the parents suddenly try to crack down. Too late, they already gave up their authority over her long ago.
You train a child early to respect authority and obedience later is second nature.
Already have. Your advice is more of the same given to countless men before me. It doesn’t work for the vast majority of men, it is merely a trap for them to fall into. That is men were just ‘sexy’ enough, just wealthy enough, just gamed more, just led better, blah blah blah, it’s the same old tired song over and over again.
Just maintain frame brah!
John James R (JJR), I am glad I am not only one preaching Red Pill Christianity. Clearly, a lot of American men allow the media/mainstream Christian description of American dating and marriage dynamics to defy logic and their own personal observations of the situation. The whole thing, as we all know from Dalrock, Rollo, Roosh, Heartiste and others, is a marketplace, controlled by the “invisible hand” of supply and demand. It is economics 101. Yes, there are some variables and some distortions of the actual marketplace (such as distorting media influences, for instance), but overall, the basic laws of supply and demand controls the entire marriage and dating market.
The proof is anecdotal and is often based on observation and comparison, but it is so blatantly obvious to anyone who spends more than a few days outside their own local neighborhood, it is almost impossible to deny this reality. If you never read Roosh’s book and posts on Denmark and the horrific women there, it is worth a read. Guys who are solid 8’s and 9s in Denmark are forced to date fat, angry feminists in Denmark (3-5’s women) all the time, as that is pretty much all there is there. The market is so dominated by fat feminist women, the guys have no choice, short of leaving the country to seek out women. I also lived in Brazil back in mid 1990s and we used to get a weekly plane load of Danish and Portuguese men and they acted like desperate wolves at the sight of the Brazilian women, which back then, were the girls there were indeed hot and largely conservative in attitude.
It is therefore, preposterous, to see women here self-destroy with alcohol, fried food, hook-ups, and feminist appearance and to accept the premise that there are more quality women than men. That defies all logic and the laws of nature, laws of supply and demand. As I said, go to a country where there truly are few quality marriageable men like Ukraine or Russia and see what the women look like. The guys there don’t even really try… they are pretty busted looking to me. I was told many times how good looking and well-dressed I was and they always asked “how come you are not with woman from your country” and I laughed and gave them a simple answer “they are fat, women of more than 150 kilos” and they laughed at my answer.
American men, internationally, are actually viewed in many parts of the world as you describe, the 1% of the best guys to marry in so many parts of the world. I am NOT talking about fat, bald, drunken losers with an 8-month old pregnant belly, of course. I am talking about the late 20s – early 40s guys who have their life together and stayed in reasonable good shape. My business associate here is an bland beta dude who just turned 41, he is thin and tall, but he is quiet, shy, and boring. He imported a Filipina who is a 5 in my opinion, but she is 21 and they just had a kid together. To him, getting a feminine Filipina homemaker type was a better deal than a local spoiled short-haired freak off Tinder. To her, he is a dream guy, since these girls there all want kids with white, tall guys, as in Philippines today, almost all famous people are 1/2 European background (white) and 1/2 Filipino. Seems like a good match, she is extremely religious 7th Day Adventist and so is he. We will see how it goes in a few years.
Now, in a place like Ukraine, these same American and Aussie “beta” guys who are shunned here (not nerds, but “average” decent 5-7 value guys) are marrying showstoppers 8’s and 9’s with almost no effort at all. No exaggeration. I know a gent he just turned 40 (business client) who has done this and imported a solid 8.5/possibly a 9, very pretty girl, she is a bit shy at first, but very pleasant, a well-read accountant, no kids, never married before. She is 9 years younger than him and he is happy as a clam. To her, marrying a 7 American guy with a stable life, is like marring a 9 or a 10 in Ukraine (which would be very hard for her to do). To him, he won the lottery, happiest man on earth. But given just how much attention his wife gets here in the USA, I am concerned it is a matter of time until she “goes native” and indulges a woman’s hypergamous nature to its full extent. If she gets wind of our lavish divorce laws for women and is presented with a much better deal in another guy, who knows, she may monkey branch and leave him half-poor and ruined. Time will tell if (or when) she will be corrupted by the lull of the dark side of the force we call American feminism and our divorce laws.
These same high value American guys I just mentioned are routinely stuck dating/marrying local women who are at least 1-3 points lower in value than the women are because the marketplace is so skewed in women’s favor. If a woman in our country (USA) has long hair, all her teeth, decent hygiene, and a mild to pleasant personality, she can easily marry up 2 points without almost any effort on her part, but to have a profile in a Christian dating website and being in a church that has a decent number of single males in her age group. If she is Christian, she can even go 3 points above her own value in terms of the guy she can get, because the surplus of quality males far outpaces the supply of feminine, pretty women today. So when I hear that we have “no Christian/quality men” to marry, I just laugh. LOL
In my humble opinion and observation, an American woman today who is not obese, not downright ugly, and puts forward a pleasant, feminine persona out, can easily and I mean easily, marry a guy that will far exceed her hypergamous nature’s basic instinct, provided she has an overall low notch count and has reasonable expectations. If she wants to marry a rich guy who is over 6’2″, looks like Brad Pitt and has a 15-incher in his pants, then tough luck, it will not happen. If she wants a good looking guy (say 6-8 in looks) who has a good job, is in shape, and Christian, she has a huge supply available.
Yes, I acknowledge that many men, especially those men who are frivolously divorced and many Millennial single men are leaving Churchian churches, but many of these guys do so because they feel attacked in church as well. They are still Christian men of good character, who become disillusioned, not with God, but with feminist Christianity (an oxymoron, I know). Bu these guys are there. I know this, I have been running a red pill type “young men’s” small group (ages 17-23 currently) weekly for almost 2 years now.
When I was in Ukraine last time (April-May 2017), I almost had a blood vessel burst in my neck due to spinning my head like a wild lunatic looking at the women just prancing around everywhere. In Kharkiv and even in Dnipro, it was a feast for my eyes, way better than Kiev or even the more conservative Western Ukraine. The level of femininity I saw in Ukraine beat anything I experienced even when I attended a year of high school in central KY, where back in the late 1990s, the girls in KY were spectacularly pretty, thin, homemaker types that were feminine and awesome girlfriends. Now I hear reports of rampant obesity and drug use in KY, so may be different story.
Long term, I worry for Ukraine, however. Western culture is a cancer that will eventually metastasize and destroy women in a global scale via technology and social media. The western feminists and desperate Ukrainians are being sold the false promise to the join the EU for an improved economy and richer country. These pro-EU proponents are working around the clock to push for radical Femen-style feminism there, because to join the EU, Brussels wants to see at least the basic principles of radical feminism implemented. In Kiev, the massive supply of foreigners there and the Beta thirst is ruining the scene there and feminism in Kiev is already considered to be “trendy” in Millennial girls. I would avoid Kiev if seeking out a decent woman to marry (given risks of marriage at all these days), Belarus may be better option,actually.
Keep in mind that even in Kiev, feminism there is not nearly as widespread as Western Europe, Canada, Aus or the USA. Think about it this way: a radical feminist in Kiev is still prancing around with her long hair, high heels, and the best dress she can afford, still trying to find a decent husband to give her parents some grandkids, while here they have purple hair, weigh 250lbs and scream obscenities at men they do not know on the street.
Brazil…. I sigh just thinking about it. I lived there in mid-1990s and back then, being a Gringo (which means American, not white specifically) meant you had an edge on locals and you met a lot of very pretty girls. But I have to tell you, if you go back to Brazil now, you will be quite shocked. I was there for my godson’s Christening (they consider that a Baptism, but it is Catholic thing they do, the parents know child will have to be re-baptized later after he accepts Christ on his own accord and declares his faith, since babies cannot do that). Whatever. I was there
Anyway, so the Left ran Brazil for 14 years straight. They changed everything, including the laws. They have Delegacia de Mulheres which are feminist police stations designed to enforce these insane feminist laws and these steroid-ridden butchdykes cops arrest men who cannot pay bribes to make “problems” go away. The women have been re-wired to embrace tattoos and obesity and demand men accept it. I personally saw women hitting guys publicly in Rio and I asked what the hell was going on and dudes there told me this is pretty much normal across the board (I asked if this happened in São Paulo and no Sul, the guys said “of course!”). But everyone said this is much less of a problem in places like Joinville or Rio Grande do Sul. I cannot say, I was only in Rio for 10 days. I have not been to Joinville in a couple decades, but saw recent photos online and the girls there are just as stunning as I remember them! So maybe there are still Brazilians in the southwest ho are quality girls. But Rio, SP, Belo Horizonte, Nordeste… waste of time.
Another thing I noticed in Brazil is that feminism was so normal the women were casual about it as “this is how it has always been”. Girls wearing no make-up, flip-flops, and stupid soccer shirts were the norm now. The millennial women and even many Gen X women were covered in tattoos. Neck, feet, legs, inside the forearms seemed to be standard. Even at Praia da Barra, I saw only 2 girls without a huge “tramp stamp” right above their butts and I am talking huge tats, and that was across the board normal. Also, a lot of women in Brazil will have a boyfriend/husband, but demand cash gifts to perform standard female duties. Obesity for women in lower classes (favela) to middle class was rampant and I mean Mississippi levels of obesity. I was explained by several people that soy is standard part of Brazilian diet now (to save costs, as a filler) and with the widespread availability of A/Cs and acceptance of obesity socially, women became fatter and fatter. As one guy told me “the only happiness they have is to eat tasty bad food and caixas de Chocolates Garoto”.
I asked myself for days after coming back, how did this happen to Brazil in such a short period of time. Then I remember my days actually living in Brazil in mid-1990s. Brazilians are a conformist society. Everyone follows and imitates what they see on TV, what the stars do, etc. Conformism is widespread in Brazil and anyone deviating is mocked, attacked, and shunned. It is much worse there than here. The media’s version of “mainstream culture” dominates Brazilian women in ways Kim Kardashian can only dream of (despite her massive influence in our female culture). Whatever Brazilian women see the actresses do and look like on “Novelas” they imitate religiously.
What part of the country’s are you, John? Here in Orlando, we have a literal limitless supply of Brazilians, including of course, what seems to be an unlimited supply of single women ages 18-45. I have noticed a considerable decline in the quality of the women coming up form Brazil these days as well, the tattoos, and “cheianha” girls (chunky girls). They seem to drop the “marra” attitude, but still have leftist and feminist ideology and the lack of domestic skills, thanks to having a maid working for them during the week.
When my site comes back online (I am out of country now, but will be back soon) I have a whole guide, controversial as it may be, on how to game Brazilian women in Orlando. If you want some tips on scouting the few Brazilian girls who are not ridden with the cancer of feminism, I can give you some pointers for sure if you want to meet Brazilians in Florida. No joke there.
Multiple replies, as I need to get going with my day….
*JJR: yeah mudsharking is a trendy thing, a Kim Kardashian cultural “gift” to America. This was a trend a few years back then it died down, but thanks to the Kardashianzation of female American culture, mudsharking is now back with a vengeance, as an entire segment of Americans (white males) are demonized as “oppressors” on TV, news, media, and universities. This whole thing reminds me of the 1990s-2010s trends of women seeking out skinny dudes then muscle dudes, then skinny dudes again. For a few years, bearded dudes were the thing, now shaven guys are back. Exhausting for single guys to keep up with changing female taste buds, all directed and coordinated by our media establishment.
The problem is that women are given massive incentives to frivolously divorce their husband because they know they will take the poor sap to the cleaners and leave him broke and for dead and then go party with a “shaman” to satisfy her need to imitate the Kardashians.
I mean why not divorce and steal and “live her life” when it is so easy and painless for her to do it? Incentives matter and all incentives are for women to divorce and lie. Now even the SAT scores will have an “adversity score” that will benefit women who are divorced, for instance. It is a perverse system of incentives against Christian norms.
And yeah, I am with you, we need to learn more about the “Shaman Game”. I think you need to look the part, not just talk it. LOL. Heartiste being down is a tragedy, that is the place with enough PUAs to try this Shaman Game out. I think the strategy is to seek out “spiritual, bit not religious” type girls that are into “open minded” garbage. I am sure this is a niche market.
*Gary Eden / Sam: it is not defeatism. It is realism…. the Red Pill is about accepting reality, no matter how bad it may be.
I am not excusing men/parents not to TRY to raise good kids. That is critical to a functioning society. The problem is that schools openly teach kids as young as 8 to call 911 or tell a teacher if mom or dad hits them or yells at them. My ex-GF worked for an Elementary school in a very conservative county and confirmed the schools use a national standard that require schools teach kids to call 911 or tell teacher if parents do anything that upsets them. The goal is to undermine parents and to empower kids. Imagine that, empowering an 8 year old. Preposterous, only in Western world does that happen. That is like forcing people, under threats of online banning and being fired from one’s job, to accept there are 50 genders or accept that someone can change their entire genetic, age, and cultural identity by simply declaring it to be so. That is 1984 on steroids.
A simple anonymous call to a “child abuse hotline” by a neighbor that does not like you is enough to have a social worker show up announced with a police escort to take your child out of the home until an investigation is complete. Your life is turned upside down by an angry neighbor or an angry relative seeking revenge. Example:
*Opus: Ahh so the feminist laws that invalidate Prenuptial Agreements are also dismissed by activist judges in UK too. Yeah in US men jump into marriage thinking that. Prenup is a magic bullet to divorce scams by women. But these guys have no idea that a Prenup is often treated as a suggestion, a sort of “advisement ideals” for the court. Well, if UK has the same standards for Alimony for women after marriage as the US, the Royals are gonna pay plenty of cash for beta Harry’s actions and then endure a book by Meghan Merkel about “revealing their secrets”.
I just ant to leave you with this thought final. Instead of avoiding marriage (like MGTOW) or jumping into marriage blindly like “traditional mainstream Christians”, why not create a situation where men are fully informed of ALL risks and benefits of marriage in America? How many guys would be willing to marry so Willy-nilly if they knew his “for life” marriage can be ended under a one-sided filing. How many would marry if they knew wife is guaranteed to take more than half his stuff, including much of his future wages in alimony and child support? How about men are made fully aware of the legal perils involved before marriage, so he is not surprised in court by a volatile and unworthy wife?
Why does understanding the risks and benefits of marriage/kids in America/The West is such a bad thing, called “fearmongering” instead of honesty and openness, a key tenant of the Red Pill?
It is like when you go to the doctor for a small procedure, they quote you $500 in out of pocket costs, including insurance payments and pre-approval and then after procedure, all these new “non-covered costs” and fees pop-up and you are billed $2,000. How is it fair or just in a society to lie to people bout the real cost of something until after the procedure is done?
Just as we need transparency in medical services pricing, so do we need transparency in understandings the real legal threats to a man’s freedom and finances before marriage. What’s wrong with that?
(I wonder if the complementarians and “traditional Christians” oppose full disclosure of all risks because guys will bail on marriage completely or demand changes…. so in a way, it is a crime of omission against men).
I have a whole guide, controversial as it may be, on how to game Brazilian women in Orlando. If you want some tips on scouting the few Brazilian girls who are not ridden with the cancer of feminism, I can give you some pointers for sure if you want to meet Brazilians in Florida. No joke there.
From your descriptions it doesn’t sound like they would be worth gaming.
Red Pill Christianity,
I’ve enjoyed reading your posts, as they’ve been very practical and logical. You’ve mentioned multiple sides of the issues, like for instance, the difficulty involving MGTOW for Christian men as well as the risks of marriage. I also like the idea of your group, and while I’m not on the other side of the country from you, I am hundreds of miles away. In any case, I’d like to read your blog and maybe find out more about that group or at the very least, hear more about what you do and discuss there. Maybe it could be a model for other groups.
@ Red Pill
“*Gary Eden / Sam: it is not defeatism. It is realism…. the Red Pill is about accepting reality, no matter how bad it may be.
I am not excusing men/parents not to TRY to raise good kids. That is critical to a functioning society. The problem is that schools openly teach kids as young as 8 to call 911 or tell a teacher if mom or dad hits them or yells at them. My ex-GF worked for an Elementary school in a very conservative county and confirmed the schools use a national standard that require schools teach kids to call 911 or tell teacher if parents do anything that upsets them. The goal is to undermine parents and to empower kids. Imagine that, empowering an 8 year old. Preposterous, only in Western world does that happen. That is like forcing people, under threats of online banning and being fired from one’s job, to accept there are 50 genders or accept that someone can change their entire genetic, age, and cultural identity by simply declaring it to be so. That is 1984 on steroids.
A simple anonymous call to a “child abuse hotline” by a neighbor that does not like you is enough to have a social worker show up announced with a police escort to take your child out of the home until an investigation is complete. Your life is turned upside down by an angry neighbor or an angry relative seeking revenge. ”
I am fully aware of legal issues concerning family/children and the progression of law from 400 years ago until now. I advocate that every man be aware of this stuff at least a little in order to avoid the pitfalls. I would not attempt to get married and have a family in today’s West without home schooling my children. I would give any man a very low (almost zero) chance of success in today’s world if he wants to be a Christian and send his kids to public school.
Here are the four first important and essential things for success as a Christian father:
1. Homeschool or die.
2. Homeschool or die.
3. Homeschool or die.
4. Homeschool or die.
In Re: the neighbor reporting you for “child abuse”. Learning your parental rights in your state and moving out of a state which has bad parental rights laws are two decent strategies for minimizing risk. You cannot control the neighbors reporting you, but you can help to maintain the best relationship with them possible.
Matt 5
“25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.”
@Red Pill Christianity
You are right. Which is why no parent in his/her right mind sends their kids to public school. There are no good schools, even in the very rural areas. As @Sam aptly said: Homeschool or die. It is the number 1 thing you must do as a parent.
You are also right about the immense problem with CPS. Which is why a parent should be careful where they live, establish good relations with neighbors/local sheriff, and be ready with various strategies to deal with a visit by social services.
But neither of those 2 situations mean it is impossible to raise children who respect your authority. It’s not, you very much can do so. To say otherwise is to ignore reality.
*Ferriker, the Brazilian women from southern Brazil are still pretty decent overall. But they are a fast-dwindling kind. Not all Brazilian women are tattooed biker gag look-alike, just as not all American (or Western) women are raging feminists. Even in Denmark, the women in Jutland region there (according to RV) are not radical feminists. AWALT is simply too broad for me… life is nuanced and complex today. Friends and enemies are more and more intertwined than ever before.
I am speaking broadly, most women in Brazil are appalling today, save for a minority in southern Brazil. Even in NYC and in Portland, which feature sone of the most disgustingly ugly group of females I have ever seen in my life, there are still some “hot” girls.
If you guys want to see my Brazilian Girl Game in Florida, it will be back up soon, as soon as my site is back-up. I wrote the piece originally for ReturnOfKings, but they went on hiatus for now.
*Sam, I agree, homeschool or your kids will be destroyed by our “loser factories” (my term for American public schools). I myself attended private school until 11th grade, and public school was so easy, I was bored to tears. I literally learned nothing new last 2 years of high school and I graduated HS at 17.
Problem, Sam, is that not everyone can afford to homeschool. You need a stay-at-home parent to do so, or a relative… which means the husband has to earn enough to be able to afford that. Even rural mormons in Utah are having a problem now, with our “two-income system”, where both spouses are forced to work for less pay.
And no one is saying you have to have problems with your neighbor. Proverbs 11:12 “Whoever derides his neighbor lacks judgement…”. I got it, good neighbor policies are key. But you need to understand that he Left has given children a type of power they have never had before, a power to imprison their parent(s). Even a teacher who gets upset that you will not call your bearded teenage son “Maria” can falsely accuse you of child abuse and turn your life upside down.
Understand this: the goal is to create instability and uncertainty. That is what the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Revolutionary France and all other totalitarian regimes did and still do to maintain control and power. They turn everyone against everyone else.
Consider “identity politics” and intersectionalism. It pits one group agains another, constantly, all the time.
Think about the #MeToo hysteria. Ask any MeToo hysterics, “what constitute harassment?” Their answer is “we will tell you when you do it”. The rules of the game are not written and are unspecified.
The goal is to create a sense of fear and uncertainty. When your neighbor can falsely accuse you of being an “enemy of the state” and send you to the guillotine later that same day, the level of distrust and fear is so great, that you may end up accusing them falsely preemptively out of fear (see French Great Terror). How can you organize any resistance when that is the society you live in? How can you work with your neighbors and form a community to help and support one another when you cannot trust them at all and live in fear of them? How can you get married and trust the woman you live with when she can end it all and steal all your stuff and leave you to die in prison open a false charge anytime? It atomizes you and makes you dependent on the government, as everyone around you seems like an enemy.
Feminists and the Left know this very well. That is why we have the social and legal system that we have today. This is no accident, they tested this out in the Soviet Union and it worked beautifully, until it collapsed for economic reasons (keep in mind that no one toppled the Soviets, they collapsed economically on their own; Reagan simply pushed them faster in that direction). No one rebelled and tapped the regime from within, as no one could trust one another. Then you add millions of welfare-receiving immigrants that never assimilate, economic injustice, and media 24/7 instigating anger, division, and fear…. Balkanization, division, and fear works well and to keep such a country together, only a powerful and rash govt works. What, you think the Democrats push to end the 1st and 2nd Amendments are coincidental too?
I know hundreds of home schooling families. Anyone CAN afford it, it is just a matter of priorities and lifestyle. If it is important to live in the city, have two new cars, eat out regularly, or have the latest tech and clothing, then perhaps home schooling won’t be a priority. If you are sending your wife to work, understand that you are part of the problem. Women competing for jobs is one of the reasons that wages are historically low and a husband/father can hardly maintain a middle class lifestyle for his family. But there is nothing wrong with choosing a lower class lifestyle until the job market changes due to the mass exodus of Christian women from the work force.
Where to find men? India and China.
See: http://www.populationpyramid.net/india and /china — all lower case.
Click on the bars in the graph to see the underlying numbers.
For India alone:
Age, ” # of men in excess of # of women”
15-19, 6.8 million.
20-24, 6.2 million.
25-29, 5.0 million.
30-34, 4.0 million.
Certainly, some of those *millions* of men are worthy/eligible for American women.
Certainly, some of those *millions* of men are worthy/eligible for American women.
I might find Indian and Chinese men annoying in various ways and to various degrees, but in no way do I hate them enough to EVER wish American women upon them. I don’t think that there’s any race or ethnicity of men I despise to that degree or level of intensity.