116 Responses to Father’s Day sermons are the symptom, not the disease.

1. Anonymous Reader says:

   June 12, 2018 at 10:40 am

   The sort order is fairly dynamic, so I pulled whatever was top of the list when I returned until I couldn’t bear to read any more sermons.

   Thanks for doing that so many others do not have to.
2. Damn Crackers says:

   June 12, 2018 at 10:42 am

   “Equal pay for equal work. Amen.”

   Is this from the Nicene Creed? I don’t seem to remember it.

   Also, you have 354 days in the paragraph after the lede. I don’t think you meant the Lunar calendar.

   [D: Thanks! Fixed.]

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4. Hmm says:

   June 12, 2018 at 11:03 am

   For myself, I never minded the “be the man God called you to be” stuff in Father’s day sermons, so much of what you copied above didn’t trigger me much. But the one about the kids giving the present to Daddy really honked me off.
5. Dalrock says:

   June 12, 2018 at 11:13 am

   @Hmm

   For myself, I never minded the “be the man God called you to be” stuff in Father’s day sermons, so much of what you copied above didn’t trigger me much.

   Right. It is more subtle, and more to the point perfectly normal (in Christian culture). The thing to keep in mind is this is the response to a day set aside to honor fathers. They could follow their mother’s advice and not say anything at all if they don’t have anything good to say. Many pastors do just that (and others don’t preach topically on holidays in general). But these pastors felt the need to take a day set aside to honor fathers (which corresponds to a biblical command), and go after fathers instead. Secular culture provoked them into going after fathers. Remaining silent as secular culture honored fathers was simply too much to bear.
6. Damn Crackers says:

   June 12, 2018 at 11:28 am

   Here’s the real Father’s Day slap in the face:

   http://pulpitandpen.org/2018/06/11/united-methodists-remove-father-from-apostles-creed-to-be-more-gender-inclusive-to-god/
7. Cane Caldo says:

   June 12, 2018 at 11:32 am

   Remaining silent as secular culture honored fathers was simply too much to bear.

   Boom!
8. Anonymous Reader says:

   June 12, 2018 at 11:49 am

   Anti-man sermons are a symptom the same problem as Patterson’s firing from the Fort Worth seminary. Feminization of the churches manifests in multiple ways, and anti-man sermons are one means of preparing the conflict space for future feminist gains. The SBC women who signed the open letter are able to operate within the SBC partly because men have been demoralized and even demonized by the denomination itself

   But all these women demanding Patterson’s head on a plate didn’t just appear overnight. Without women’s studies departments in SBC-approved seminaries the rot might not be so deep.

   Anti-man, anti-father sermons are an easy problem to point to. Some tradcons might even be able to notice them, if right in front of their eyes in big, easy to read typefont.
9. Dalrock says:

   June 12, 2018 at 11:57 am

   @Anon Reader

   Anti-man, anti-father sermons are an easy problem to point to. Some tradcons might even be able to notice them, if right in front of their eyes in big, easy to read typefont.

   Indeed. What makes this even harder to deny is when secular commenters take note, as I’ve shown with War Room and Mom’s Night Out.

   But this creates an intractable dilemma. Should they double down on denying that it is happening? Or should they defend the anti-father messages they love as either perfectly normal or justified? To deny the message is to admit that it is evil. To defend the message is to admit that this is how they really feel.
10. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    June 12, 2018 at 11:58 am

    Is that the same Doug Phillips formerly of Vision Forum, son of Howard Phillips?
11. feministhater says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:11 pm

    The problem today is not rebellious women. It is men who have not taken the rightful spot in leading their families. I know there are rebellious women. I’m sure none here. Some men are comfortable giving up the lead role.

    And this is why I don’t care anymore. If they are so blind as to not be able to admit that women are in rebellion, then there is no point. None so blind as those who will not see. No fixing this I’m afraid.
12. Dalrock says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:14 pm

    @Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    Is that the same Doug Phillips formerly of Vision Forum, son of Howard Phillips?

    That was my original belief. However, looking at other sermons I no longer think so. For one, he has submissions from 2018. Another clue is in one sermon he references going to the big city, and both cities he mentions are in Canada. The Vision Forum Doug Phillips is in Texas. I just updated the post accordingly.
13. Cane Caldo says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:26 pm

    @Dalrock

    Indeed. What makes this even harder to deny is when secular commenters take note, as I’ve shown with War Room and Mom’s Night Out.

    It’s easy to under-estimate the powers of equivocation wielded by Christians. When it suits them, secular criticism can be ignored by the mere observation that the critics aren’t Christian and therefore can’t understand. Yet, in the twinkling of an eye, the same Christians can turn about to marshal secular criticism against fathers.

    Criticism of Christians for portraying fathers as dolts? They just don’t understand the higher calling of being a Christian father that all Christian fathers fail to achieve. Total out of wedlock birth rates high regardless of faith? That’s self-evident judgment upon Christian fathers because they’ve set a bad example for everyone else.
14. thedeti says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:27 pm

    All women have a rebellious streak. It’s their nature. Eve, not Adam, was the one who disobeyed FIRST. Eve, not Adam, was the one who was deceived, in large part because she WANTED to be deceived. God announced the curse of Eve: “Your desire shall be to rule your husband, and he shall rule over you.” Women constantly chafe and bristle against the constraints and boundaries and rule of men. Daughters do this with their fathers. Wives do this with their husbands. Can women overcome this? Yes, through prayer and effort and mindfulness. Do women who overcome this occasionally relapse? Yes, every one of them.

    Do most women overcome this? No, mostly because men are constantly told to indulge and allow and placate. (Just as Adam did by “hearkening to the voice of [his] wife. His sin was listening to what his wife told him he should do, which led him directly into disobedience to God’s command. The clear implication of what God told Adam was “If you had listened to me and done what I had told you to do, instead of listening to her and doing what she told you to do, you would have been fine. But you listened to her anyway, just like I knew you would.”)
15. Anonymous Reader says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:42 pm

    But this creates an intractable dilemma. Should they double down on denying that it is happening? Or should they defend the anti-father messages they love as either perfectly normal or justified?

    Patterson’s head on a platter suggests Door #2: double down on beating up other men in order to please their Mommies, Dominatrixes church sisters. In the longer term it means driving more men out of church and seriously betaizing, if not gelding, the rest. Of course it also means a split in the SBC is now baked in the cake – not “if” but “when”. Beth Moore may yet wind up queen of the SBC, only to have about half of the churches leave, shrinking her empire quickly.
16. Anonymous Reader says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:49 pm

    Related topic: a couple of local churches held “Lady’s Movie Night” last week on Friday.
    They showed the Kendricks War Room.
    A friend of mine sends his children to a Christian school. One of the last assembly / chapels in May featured Fireproof.
    This is considered to be “pushing back” or “resisting” the popular culture.
17. vfm7916 says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:50 pm

    @thedeti

    Yep, the first commandment was violated before it was in existence when Eve desired to be as God. She also wanted Adam to receive the fruit from her, not God, and become his God.

    That is the struggle of every man and every woman and the underlying driver of sexuality. Anytime a man puts his woman over himself it’s the violation of that commandment. Women are always driven to attempt to become Gods, explaining their solipsistic thought processes.

    It’s when they follow God’s order that they achieve peace and happiness. In order to do so Women need those external behavioral controls from religion, culture, relationships, etc. Men develop internal controls on behavior, as they constantly orient themselves to the world that can kill them at any time. This is the faculty that creates headship, civilization, and worship. As the controls break, so does everything that follows on until the savagery reaches a point where Women must mitigate the risk of violence to themselves through full submission to their Men. That point will probably be the rebirth of Christianity, though it will be a very militant Christianity not interested in turning the other cheek.
18. Oscar says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm

    @ thedeti says:
    June 12, 2018 at 12:27 pm

    All women have a rebellious streak. It’s their nature. Eve, not Adam, was the one who disobeyed FIRST…
    Do most women overcome this? No, mostly because men are constantly told to indulge and allow and placate.

    Few women are even aware that their flesh naturally rebels against their husbands’ authority. Even fewer acknowledge that natural tendency. Even fewer actually struggle against it. Even fewer conquer their rebellious tendencies.
19. Winston Smith says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:55 pm

    The demand to “show more emotion in worship” is a specific demand for men to stop being masculine and act more feminine. I always felt this tension in church, when I was younger and still attended, as though my natural masculine nature was being rejected in favor of effeminate displays of emotion. I remember hearing those sorts of admonitions, that I must not be a “real man” because I wasn’t (*acting like a woman*) emotional enough.

    The church’s message seems to be, “Men: act like women, submit to women, submit to your children, submit to our leadership and the church, and then maybe, just maybe, if you’re a good little boy, we will accept you as a second-class citizen who can be ejected from his family at your wife’s command.”

    That Top 10 List is completely insane, if that pastor is suggesting that fathers should be doing the opposite of all the “jokes” contained therein. We’re supposed to give our kids the keys to the car and our credit card? To encourage our sons to figure skate? This is just horrendous advice. And I would have taken it as a bad joke, except the pastor afterward states, “Men have a lot to work on.”
20. Anonymous Reader says:

    June 12, 2018 at 12:58 pm

    As another aside, “contempt of husband by wife” is one of the 4 marriage-killers that Gottman discovered during his relationship research in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s. It’s no secret that men need respect at a basic level. In a sense, churches that engage in man bashing are just another form of nagging, disrespectful, contentious wife.

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22. ys says:

    June 12, 2018 at 2:27 pm

    Amazing work here. I am sure it took a lot of time, so thank you.
23. vfm7916 says:

    June 12, 2018 at 2:32 pm

    If a woman can’t respect the person she chose as her husband, how can she respect God?

    Rhetorical, naturally.
24. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    June 12, 2018 at 3:29 pm

    @vfm.

    If a woman can’t respect the person she chose as her husband, how can she respect God?

    The Greek word used in Eph 5:33 is Phobos which means to fear with reverence. The evangelical church has removed the fear of god from their culture and worship so it is natural that there is no respect/reverence/fear of husbands. The new spiritual path is the fear of women is the beginning of wisdom and the contempt of husbands is the second step.
25. Hugh Mann says:

    June 12, 2018 at 4:13 pm

    Isn’t Father’s Day a creation of the greeting-card industry? In the UK we have Mothering Sunday, originally a day when you’d visit the church you were baptised in (your ‘mother church’), but ‘Father’s Day’ is a complete and utter fake day, unless you celebrate St Joseph’s Day as they do in Europe.

    I do actually tell my kids not to get me anything for Father’s Day, because “Every day is Father’s Day!”
26. Nathan Bruno says:

    June 12, 2018 at 4:20 pm

    @Hugh Mann

    Father’s Day was championed by a woman who was raised by a widower because America had celebrated Mother’s Day for 50 years prior. Our greatest president, Calvin Coolidge, urged every state to celebrate it.
27. RichardP says:

    June 12, 2018 at 4:21 pm

    @deti said: If you had listened to me and done what I had told you to do, instead of listening to her and doing what she told you to do, you would have been fine. But you listened to her anyway, just like I knew you would.

    That is close, but still misleading.

    … Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world. 1 Peter 1:19-20

    … the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. Revelation 13:8

    The final sacrifice was chosen before the creation of the world. The final sacrifice was chosen before the creation of Eve. God knew what Eve was going to do before he even created her – and so he created a rescue from her punishment before he even created her.

    God knew how he was going to create Eve before he created her. God could have created her to be different, but he did not. Actually, he could not. Because God created a rescue from what Eve would do – before he even created Eve.

    Why would God have created the final sacrifice, our rescue from the wages of sin, before he created Eve – unless he planned to create Adam and Eve with the ability and desire to rebel against him? When someone looks at something and says “it is good”, that does not mean it is perfect. It means that it turned out just the way the creator of the thing wanted it to turn out.

    We cannot argue that, out of God’s foreknowledge, he realized that Adam and Eve would need a savior, and so he created one. We cannot argue that – because God created that savior before he created Adam and Eve. That means he knew that he was going to create Adam and Eve so that they would need a savior. That shows intent. Not just foreknowledge. Unless you want to argue that God did not know what he was doing when he created Adam and Eve – and that argument just makes no sense. As Isaiah 29:16 says, the clay doesn’t say to the potter “do you know what you are doing?”. (paraphrased).

    God saw that Adam was alone and saw that it was not good for Adam to be alone. Assuming that God was looking at the actual man Adam, that means he was saying it was not good for Adam to be alone AFTER God chose the lamb that would be sacrificed as recompense for the sin Adam had not yet performed. God did not intend for Adam to reject Eve. Had Adam done so, he would have been right back in the predicament that God created Eve as a rescue from. Why would God create a rescue from Adam’s aloneness and then expect Adam to reject her? Why would God choose the final sacrifice – before he created Adam – and then expect Adam to not need the final sacrifice?

    This may not make sense to us, but that is what the words say. This may not make sense to us, but it is God’s game, not ours. He says as much in Isaiah 29:16, referenced above, and in Isaiah 46:10, quoted below:

    I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. (NIV)

    This is God’s game, not ours. And whatever he pleases to do does not have to make sense to us. And yet we continue to impose on the words a meaning that makes sense to us, a meaning that is clearly at odds with what the words atually say.

    … Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world (before the creation of Adam and Eve). 1 Peter 1:19-20

    … the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. Revelation 13:8

    Those words mean something. And yet, all of our discussions about the Adam and Eve story fail to account for these words.
28. Frank K says:

    June 12, 2018 at 4:30 pm

    Common Anti-Father Father’s Day Sermon Themes:

    Mock fathers, following the lead of feminists who for decades have portrayed married fathers as (at best) useless oafs.
    Blame fathers for the single mother revolution and the host of social maladies feminism has wrought. More on this topic here.
    Blame fathers for children (and fathers) falling away from the anti-father church.
    Tell men to man up and/or accuse them of being bad fathers.
    Jokes about how Father’s Day is less important than Mother’s Day.
    

    I am fortunate enough to say that I’ve never heard such tripe during a homily. I guess it really is different on the other side of the aisle these days.

    Perhaps some of you should talk with Scott about joining the Orthodox Church.
29. Frank K says:

    June 12, 2018 at 4:33 pm

    Here’s the real Father’s Day slap in the face:

    http://pulpitandpen.org/2018/06/11/united-methodists-remove-father-from-apostles-creed-to-be-more-gender-inclusive-to-god/
    

    Why do the United Methodists even recite the creed? I seriously doubt they believe even a fraction of it.
30. Oscar says:

    June 12, 2018 at 4:36 pm

    Jonadab,

    I’m not so sure that phobos means “fear with reverence”.

    Phobos is the name of a Greek god, one of Ares’ (god of war) twin sons, Phobos and Deimos (fear and terror). Supposedly, Ares would send Phobos and Deimos through an army, spreading fear and terror among the ranks.

    In other words, phobos is the kind of fear that makes warriors’ hands shake, their knees knock, and their bowels run at the sight of the enemy.

    We see that kind of fear throughout the Bible when people encounter God’s glory.

    Exodus 20:18 All the people perceived the [f]thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak [g]to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak [h]to us, or we will die.” 20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may [i]remain with you, so that you may not sin.”

    ….

    Isaiah 6:6 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,

    “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,
    The [a]whole earth is full of His glory.”

    4 And the [b]foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the [c]temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,

    “Woe is me, for I am ruined!
    Because I am a man of unclean lips,
    And I live among a people of unclean lips;
    For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”

    …

    Revelation 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like [j]a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun [k]shining in its strength.

    17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I [l]was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”
31. Dalrock says:

    June 12, 2018 at 5:32 pm

    @Frank K

    I am fortunate enough to say that I’ve never heard such tripe during a homily. I guess it really is different on the other side of the aisle these days.

    Perhaps some of you should talk with Scott about joining the Orthodox Church.

    Not all Protestant pastors do this kind of sermon. As I noted above, some pastors choose to say nothing at all if they can’t say anything good, and others don’t preach topically on any holidays. My own pastor falls into the latter camp.

    But more importantly, the sermons themselves aren’t the problem. They are the symptom. Dislike for fathers, especially married fathers, is a near universal modern Christian phenomenon. Go on to CAF and ask what they think about War Room, Courageous, etc. and you will find that aside from obvious Prot vs Cat issues they very much love the anti married father message.

    This is an issue that thrives because it is cloaked in denial. A big part of that is the whole “sucks to be you!” denial each group is tempted to fall back on to avoid confronting the ugly truth immediately around them. This is very much like the smugness of many Catholics on the issue of divorce, when there is nothing to be smug about.
32. earl says:

    June 12, 2018 at 5:46 pm

    The other thing which isnt pointed out…whenever a husband tries to discipline his wife’s rebellious streak…she can summon the state to throw him out. Or claim abuse because of the badfeelz.

    I’m more than okay with the fact men should set boundaries and temper her rebellion. I’m not okay with state or cuck pastor undermining. So ladies can continue to be rebellious and cry about the fact there is no manning up. A cake and eat it too scenario.
33. earl says:

    June 12, 2018 at 6:37 pm

    I’m aware that Prots don’t have the book of Ben Sira (or Sirach or Ecclesiasticus) in their Bible…however chapter 3 does have a great message as to what showing honor and kindness to a father is about and what you are considered when you don’t. (of note it also talks about honoring your mother as well)

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ben+Sira+3&version=NABRE

    ‘Kindness to a father will not be forgotten;
    it will serve as a sin offering—it will take lasting root.
    In time of trouble it will be recalled to your advantage,
    like warmth upon frost it will melt away your sins.
    Those who neglect their father are like blasphemers;
    those who provoke their mother are accursed by their Creator.’
34. PokeSalad says:

    June 12, 2018 at 8:54 pm

    None so blind as those who will not see.

    “Closing your eyes…is worse than being blind.” – Johnny Adams
35. Lev Bronshtein says:

    June 12, 2018 at 9:03 pm

    A number of factors at work:

    1) too much soy
    2) gay
    3) gay
    4) soy
    5) Boomer

    Get your pastor to lift. More testosterone makes a big difference.
36. PokeSalad says:

    June 12, 2018 at 9:48 pm

    Get your pastor to lift.

    “Truly, tis easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than to get a cuck pastor in the squat rack.”
37. Sharkly says:

    June 12, 2018 at 9:58 pm

    Get your pastor to lift. More testosterone makes a big difference.

    
38. JB Harshaw says:

    June 12, 2018 at 10:55 pm

    @ Dalrock

    The disease is a profound contempt for fathers, especially married fathers.

    No, sorry Dalrock,you’re close, but that too is just a symptom.

    The REAL underlying disease is a desire to NEGATE or ERASE the very existence of God, the Father, and most specifically to do so because of an overwhelming desire to blatantly REJECT and DISOBEY his LAW (all of it); and by “erasing” him (never mentioning him, essentially just denying HIS existence*), they believe they are justified in creating & substituting their own “laws” (thus we see a whole array of sinful behavior (all “rationalized” away via the substitute “gods”).

    I noted long long ago the absence, almost total AVOIDANCE of even mentioning God the Father in many many churches in recent decades.

    * This is what any/all attempts to elevate either “Jesus” (aka “Buddy Christ”) and/or “The Spirit” (as a sort of Star Wars-y impersonal “Force”) — or for those who are even MORE blatant to substitute some “Mother Earth/Gaia” figure; all of these are really just DENIAL of the existence of God the Father (Psalm 14:1**) and are forms of blasphemy and idolatry.

    ** Note how their behavior MATCHES that of Psalm 14 verse 1, to wit: 14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
39. Sharkly says:

    June 12, 2018 at 11:48 pm

    @Dalrock

    Wow, this is a real eye opener:
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jun/12/suzanna-walters-northeastern-professor-asks-it-rea/
40. tkatchev says:

    June 13, 2018 at 2:54 am

    conservative Christians

    The only conservative Christians are the Tridentine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. Everyone else is not “conservative” and never was.
41. ray says:

    June 13, 2018 at 3:27 am

    ‘BILLY REPLIED, “I WAS JUST WAITING FOR YOU DAD, I WAS JUST WAITING FOR YOU.”’

    Not many days go by any more when I don’t think that, at least once.

    He is Papa, after all.
42. ray says:

    June 13, 2018 at 3:33 am

    vfm7916 — “That point will probably be the rebirth of Christianity, though it will be a very militant Christianity not interested in turning the other cheek.”

    Good. That’s the kind of Christianity with which King Jeshua is returning. His advance parties already are very active, and He and they are searching the planet for warriors. Not Pillsbury DOUGH BOY ‘pastors’.

    Those are the ones He’s ejecting right now.
43. DrTorch says:

    June 13, 2018 at 5:38 am

    Good point by JB Harshaw. Those that are doing this are following the lead of their father, the Devil.

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45. don bosch says:

    June 13, 2018 at 6:08 am

    Yep.
46. bdash 77 says:

    June 13, 2018 at 6:17 am

    I just love DAL!!!
    brilliant post

    FYI
    

    SOUTHERN BAPTISTS are passing a resolution to ban and punish those who do not tow the line of their SJW leaders.
47. Spike says:

    June 13, 2018 at 6:23 am

    One very common theme in the above sermons is that pastors recognise the problem with families: the father is absent, underperforming or not taking on his responsibilities as a father.
    What pastors seem clueless about is understanding the cause: feminism, and the agent of feminism – the modern wife, along with the legal apparatus of The State – has stripped men of their place in the family.
    Most men who marry by choice want the responsibilities of family and children. They aren’t allowed by Mother and State to carry them out, for modern feminist thought has given too much power to mother /wife.
    Had it not been for my own father having been almost destroyed by his second wife, I would have been clueless about it too.
48. Scott says:

    June 13, 2018 at 6:44 am

    Perhaps some of you should talk with Scott about joining the Orthodox Church.

    The thread or remnant of patriarchal teachings (and commensurate fathers who still attend) is very fragile indeed and is fraying. In American Orthodoxy especially, it is collapsing under the weight of equalitarian thought and the overwhelming culture.

    Even in the ethnic churches, (like mine) we have Serbs here who within one generation–heck immigrants–who are all grrrrrrl power and there is nothing institutional in the surrounding culture to stop it or slow it down. It would take a very strong priest indeed to speak truth to that power. So much of what looks like patriarchy is aesthetic. (Our rules prevent women from even setting foot behind the icon screen, for example) but the poison has seeped in.

    I’ll give an example. It is not uncommon to see a woman wearing a low cut, pencil tight dress that stops 3 inches above the knees with 3″ spiked sexy heels wearing a head scarf to receive communion. I mean, come on. Or if you have conversation about this in mixed Orthodox company (like say, me and my wife are standing around during coffee with a, shall we say, less traditionalist oriented cradle Orthodox couple), and the subject of submission or obedience comes up, you will almost definitely get equivocation from the priest, in order to to not upset the woman standing there. Offline, he will acknowledge the Truth of hierarchy.

    The best you can do right now is find a parish where the priest will not confront you or second guess the way you have your home organized, and to his credit, mine doesn’t.

    On the particular matter of Fathers Day (or mother’s day, or whatever) again, the ethnic churches simply do not have those traditions in [Serbia/Russia/Greece/Bulgaria/whatever] so on those days, the homily is just going to be about whatever saint is being commemorated or whatever the liturgical calendar calls for from scripture. Heck, even the calendar itself is off by 2 weeks, so when America is celebrating Christmas, we are on Advent Sunday. When you enter the door of our church, you are stepping into an alternative, ethnic, Christian dimension that gives zero S&@%s about what American Christianity is doing that day.

    This will not work for most Americans to convert to, because they don’t want to take on all the ethnic traditions and culture to become Orthodox. It’s why I keep saying that America is ripe for a truly American Orthodox tradition to emerge, but I think the whole system of denominationalism will have to collapse first, and an in-home, first century catacombs. style Christianity where serious Christians literally cannot find jobs or be present in polite society for that matter will start up. You only need one canonical priest to walk away from the 401-c-3, pretending to play nicey-nice with the state to take his vestments, his sacraments and go home.

    But rest assured, the poison of egalitarian/feminism is there. It manifests differently. Its not a seething-under-the-surface contempt for married fathers as Dalrock describes. Its more of a resignation that hopefully it won’t infiltrate deep enough to destroy us like it has mainline protestantism. It’s a false hope, but that’s what it looks like to me.
49. BillyS says:

    June 13, 2018 at 8:59 am

    JB Harshaw,

    I noted long long ago the absence, almost total AVOIDANCE of even mentioning God the Father in many many churches in recent decades.

    * This is what any/all attempts to elevate either “Jesus” (aka “Buddy Christ”)

    While I agree with some of your points, degrading “Jesus” is quite stupid on your part.

    [Phl 2:9-11 NKJV] 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    His Name is above all names and rightly deserves our focus.

    [Rom 10:8-10 NKJV] 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Jesus is the only name that allows for salvation. Some misuse it because it is so powerful, but do not arrogantly think that focusing on the Father alone is sufficient, especially not if that father happens to be just an impersonal force in your own eyes.

    In fact, the relationship in marriage is connected to the relationship of Jesus and the Church, not the Father and the Church. Thus the name of Jesus is far more important than many realize.

    Some may find it fun to scoff at a “personal Jesus” (and I would share scorn making Jesus their token “god”), but that very personal relationship with Him is the only way of salvation. He provides the way to the Father.
50. Oscar says:

    June 13, 2018 at 9:20 am

    What Scott wrote is why I keep saying, don’t get cocky, kids. This is a spiritual battle, not just an ideological one.

    There’s no logical reason why 1% – 2% of the population (homosexuals) should have led the other 98% of the population by the nose, but they did. There’s no logical reason why a tiny fraction of 1% of the population (trannies) should be leading the other 99.9… % of the population by the nose, but they are.

    We’re watching Romans 1 play out in front of us in real time. The elites – including those in the Church – denied God, and that denial trickled down to the general population. So God “gave them over” (see Romans 1) to a sexual revolution. And then He “gave them over” to a homosexual revolution. And now he’s given them over to “a depraved mind”.

    No Church is exempt from that “giving over”.

    We need repentance, like in the book of Nehemiah, and that can only start with the Church.
51. AnonS says:

    June 13, 2018 at 9:51 am

    I don’t think change ever happened with a “saving hearts and minds” approach.

    Initial movements might be lead with a charismatic leader but without additional elements it doesn’t keep going.

    1. Networked elites and hierarchy that can support and defend people in the movement. When you have people watching your back it is easy to hunt down lone wolves one at a time as a group. Also providing services for the group like lodging and encouraging buying within the network whenever possible. Early Christianity had Roman nobles, Jews setup membership groups with dues, and European Nationalists have worked to setup alternative economies for their members. Elites and hierarchy are the different parts of the body working together.

    1 Cor 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

    2. Change bodies and the mind follows. Most Churches have the same basic feel-good / you-should-do-better message every week. It is just emotional Novocain that women and numales keep coming back to ease their constant background anxiety. What happens when the gut biome, inflammation, and hormones return to a healthy level? The large percent of the population that would be more naturally right wing start waking up and getting increasingly bored of basic messages. Their sense of cringe, disgust, and boldness reawaken. When you feel great internally the slings and arrows the world don’t seem as scary. I was one of them, testosterone is a hell of a drug.

    3. The spiritual element. Partly that every culture has a religious element and partly that it provides a legal shelter in today’s environment (Scientology). Starting more American Eastern Orthodox churches with the parish members all due paying members of the larger traditionalist movement is a big opportunity. I’ve found the WELS Lutheran group okay for prots (only one I’m aware that don’t let women vote) but the messages are still going to be pedantic and the pastors milk-toast from what I’ve seen.

    Who is trying to do this for traditionalism in America? Identity Evropa is the only group I’m aware of.
52. earl says:

    June 13, 2018 at 10:19 am

    the subject of submission or obedience comes up, you will almost definitely get equivocation from the priest, in order to to not upset the woman standing there. Offline, he will acknowledge the Truth of hierarchy.

    Yet another example most men (clergy included) fear women more than they fear God.

    I think it’s high time we start offending women with the truth. If they have a problem with it, they should take it up with God. Obviously this supplication to their rebellious hearts isn’t working anymore…and is in fact making things worse for everybody.
53. RedPillNoob says:

    June 13, 2018 at 11:35 am

    Don’t worry, once the Western World catches on to the PROPER way of doing things, like this, then we’ll all rest easier…. hahaha!

    http://www.bbc.com/travel/gallery/20180612-chinas-kingdom-of-women
54. BillyS says:

    June 13, 2018 at 11:42 am

    Oscar,

    Note that rejecting the Creator is what leads to the mess. This is why such a small group could overturn society. God gives societies that reject Him as the Creator to all kinds of evil, as it notes in Romans 1.

    How many Christians really believe He created it all today? Very few, unfortunately.
55. Damn Crackers says:

    June 13, 2018 at 11:54 am

    What if one church just refused to let women into service without their head covered. Would that be a good start?
56. JB Harshaw says:

    June 13, 2018 at 11:58 am

    @BillyS

    While I agree with some of your points, degrading “Jesus” is quite stupid on your part.

    Except you do me an injustice by misunderstanding/misrepresenting what I was saying.

    It is not ME degrading Jesus, it is the general “church” (and “Churchianity”) that has degraded/corrupted their (mis)representation of him, turned him into something he is not… a “fake” Jesus who is JUST their “best buddy” — and a sort of “wish granting Aladdin’s Genie” — just as likewise they have degraded/corrupted the gospel, cheapened it, and turned it into a “coupon” that has “no cost” whatsoever.

    The problem is that they keep the name, but deny his SON-ship — by denying the Father his FATHER-ship, indeed denying the very existence of the Father. (Cf 1 John 2:23 “No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” — and note that just using the NAME of “Jesus” is NOT “acknowledging the Son” if it does not acknowledge that he IS the “Son” — who by definition has, and was doing the “will of his Father”).

    but do not arrogantly think that focusing on the Father alone is sufficient,

    This is a strawman — I did NOT suggest any such thing. Simply that the churches who have (effectively) “erased” the Father, in favor of a fake “Jesus” and/or a false “Spirit” — are fundamentally apostate. (And the occasional “hand wavey” mention of “the Father” in a formulaic manner {like when reciting some creed, of as some word tossed into a song} doesn’t count; CF Isaiah 29:13a The Lord says: “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”)

    As for this:

    especially not if that father happens to be just an impersonal force in your own eyes.

    If THAT is your viewpoint of the Father… then I would say you know neither the Father, NOR the Son; you may be following a “Jesus” a “Christ” (or a “Spirit”) but you are NOT following THE Jesus Christ who is the Son of the FATHER. (Cf 2 Corinthians 11:14 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.)

    Your final note:

    Some may find it fun to scoff at a “personal Jesus” (and I would share scorn making Jesus their token “god”), but that very personal relationship with Him is the only way of salvation. He provides the way to the Father.

    I don’t find it FUN to “scoff” at it… but I do think the MANNER in which salvation has been “cheapened” — and the modern (non Biblical) language & phrasing of the “personal relationship” (especially in an era when the word “relationship” has been so thoroughly tainted, DEBASED to a triviality by people who quickly, instantly “fall in love” and then, just as quickly even flippantly discard/destroy/deny whatever “relationships” they have) — is not only deserving of “scorn” but needs to be removed from our vocabulary (if indeed, it ever really belonged there to begin with).
57. JB Harshaw says:

    June 13, 2018 at 12:15 pm

    @BillyS

    Also, just as an FYI, my use of the phrasing “Buddy Christ” was a SPECIFIC reference to this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Christ
    Buddy Christ is a parody religious icon in the film Dogma. In the film, he is part of a campaign (“Catholicism Wow!”) to renew the image of (and interest in) the Catholic Church. Viewing the crucifix image as “wholly depressing”, the Church, led by Cardinal Glick (George Carlin), decides to retire it, and creates Buddy Christ as a more uplifting image of Jesus Christ.[1] The icon consists of a statue of Jesus, smiling and winking while pointing at onlookers with one hand and giving the thumbs-up sign with the other hand. The Buddy Christ was later produced as an action figure and a bobblehead.[2] The image has since been turned into a popular Internet meme.

    And arguably is NOT really a “parody” at all… quite frankly that IS the image of “Christ” (a different “Jesus” and a different “gospel”) that “Churchianity/Churchians” worship.

    As sickening as that is, in part BECAUSE it is so blatantly a “parody” I think it is arguably LESS problematic than say these “best buddy Jesus statue” things: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=jesus+sports+statues&t=ffsb&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images– which as I noted, turn “Jesus” (and said “personal relationship” with him) into some kind of “guardian angel” or “good luck charm” or “wish granting ghost/genie” (and in no small part I think so called “parachurch” entities like FCA are responsible for the proliferation of such nonsense; which is at best insipid, and at worst blasphemous).

    Among other problems is that such things tend to UNDERMINE the faith of children & youth (see they ASKED God to help them win the game, or at least stay “safe & unharmed” during it… and because they lost, and got injured… well they conclude that “God doesn’t work/doesn’t exist” etc) that’s the consequence of such horrid/inane theology.
58. Bee says:

    June 13, 2018 at 12:19 pm

    Damn Crackers,

    “Would that be a good start?”

    YES. Good idea.
59. Boxer says:

    June 13, 2018 at 12:38 pm

    Damn Crackers writes:

    What if one church just refused to let women into service without their head covered. Would that be a good start?

    It would take much more than a uniform change to reverse the feminist trend. Bear in mind that women love to take on exaggerated behavior in (what Simon Sheppard calls) “the alien role.” The women who go to that church would adopt the head covering, and then flaunt it, while using it as a prop to further their own feminist praxis. For the wearer, the head covering would become a marker to show the world how “correct” she was, and for the observer wimminz, it would become a token of “oppression.”

    A few months ago, I was in Dubai, and this is exactly the sort of communicative signal that Muslim wimminz project. For those wimminz who wear hijab, it becomes nothing more than a fashion statement, and for those who don’t, the non-wearing of it becomes a symbol of rebellion.

    Boxer
60. DrTorch says:

    June 13, 2018 at 12:42 pm

    What if one church just refused to let women into service without their head covered. Would that be a good start?

    Yes, I think it would be a good start.

    Open query. Many of the churches I’ve attended over the past few years have had laymen from the congregation do the reading from Scripture. There has been a trend in all of them to have a woman do this reading (lead in this reading?) Sometimes there are two readings and it’s a man and woman, sometimes one reading, and as best I can recall, usually a woman gets that slot.

    Thoughts on this? I would suggest that it is “leading” the congregation in reading the Scriptures. I think it’s wrong.
61. earl says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:17 pm

    @ Boxer…

    The reason it would be a good start is that it would promote submission amongst women instead of rebellion. Really anything a woman does can be turned into an attention grabber. If they choose to attention signal forms of submission…that could be the start of the change for the herd, who more often than not attention signal their rebellion.

    Obviously the matter of her heart is the bigger indicator…we have plenty of more evidence of what they do when they rebel.
62. BillyS says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:23 pm

    JB Harshaw,

    I don’t waste my time on many movies, so references to those will miss the point with me.

    Too many degrade a personal relationship with Jesus, including some here. That was the point of my response. I do not agree with making him an ornament in your car, or effectively like that, but you must personally obey Him, even to get to the Father, since He is the only way there.

    We may not disagree as much as it seemed, but your post implied more.
63. BillyS says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:23 pm

    Scott noted above that women can outwardly comply, while completely missing the spirit of things.

    Sad, but that is where we are.
64. anonymous_ng says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:25 pm

    @Scott The thread or remnant of patriarchal teachings (and commensurate fathers who still attend) is very fragile indeed and is fraying. In American Orthodoxy especially, it is collapsing under the weight of equalitarian thought and the overwhelming culture.

    I’ve been thinking about some of these issues recently.

    If the priest refuses to address an issue, isn’t that tacit approval of it? If the priests’ wives don’t cover their heads, why would any of the other women?

    I wonder if the people drawn to the priesthood and pulpit aren’t also averse to conflict.

    IDK, just random thoughts.
65. Anonymous Reader says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:30 pm

    What if one church just refused to let women into service without their head covered. Would that be a good start?

    It would only happen in a very small church, probably part of a small denomination or an independent.
    Whether it would mean anything would depend on why the women were doing it.
    That would depend on the frame of the men in that church…

    So the answer is “probably not”.
66. Boxer says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:36 pm

    Dear Earl:

    The reason it would be a good start is that it would promote submission amongst women instead of rebellion. Really anything a woman does can be turned into an attention grabber. If they choose to attention signal forms of submission…that could be the start of the change for the herd, who more often than not attention signal their rebellion.

    You have yet to address my counterexample. If you go to the Dar al Islam, you’ll find hijabi wimminz who are every bit as slutty as the typical American skank. Their “form of submission” is merely a fashion statement.

    In fact, upscale shops sell burqa and hijab which are adorned with flashy paints and jewels, so that these “submissive” wimminz can get sexual attention from men on the street. Of course, skank-ho princess will excuse this in all the same ways Christian sluts will. “It makes me feel good and boosts my self-esteem,” and such. Truly, there is nothing new under the sun.

    Obviously the matter of her heart is the bigger indicator…we have plenty of more evidence of what they do when they rebel.

    This bit of realtalk comes close to contradicting the first paragraph you wrote. Of course it’s nice to see wimminz dress modestly and all, but in order to stem the feminist tide you need to reverse all the social laws and mores which offload the consequence and expense of female promiscuity onto men. For instance:

    *No child support without a) a marriage, and b) a criminal conviction of the husband.
    *No state sanctioned abortion for any wimminz who doesn’t have a panel of physicians attesting to a) a life threatening consequence, or b) a serious deformity or illness in the child.
    *Criminal penalties for a married wimminz who fucks another man.
    *Criminal penalties for an unmarried wimminz who gets pregnant.

    In the Soviet Union, they used to send unmarried mothers to a work camp, for ripping off the social services agency. This would be a very good start for the U.S.A. In China, they still give a court-ordered hysterectomy to repeat single mothers. This would also be acceptable.

    Basically, if you want to cure our society, you need to reconstruct a healthy social system. You can’t merely encourage some piece of clothing. The wimminz laugh at shit like that.

    Best,

    Boxer
67. Boxer says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:41 pm

    Scott noted above that women can outwardly comply, while completely missing the spirit of things… Sad, but that is where we are.

    Why is this surprising to a bunch of self-described Christians and Jews on Dalrock? Your own religious texts allude to this much. In fact, it’s right at the beginning of your Bible.

    https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/otesources/01-genesis/text/articles-books/foh-womansdesire-wtj.pdf
68. earl says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:42 pm

    You have yet to address my counterexample.

    Read my second paragraph.
69. earl says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:43 pm

    Never mind…you did. The italics threw me off.
70. Boxer says:

    June 13, 2018 at 1:44 pm

    Dear Earl:

    Read my second paragraph.

    Your second paragraph appears to contradict the first. I noted this, but screwed up formatting, so perhaps it was difficult to read. My apologies.

    You wrote:

    Obviously the matter of her heart is the bigger indicator…we have plenty of more evidence of what they do when they rebel.

    This bit of realtalk comes close to contradicting the first paragraph you wrote. Of course it’s nice to see wimminz dress modestly and all, but in order to stem the feminist tide you need to reverse all the social laws and mores which offload the consequence and expense of female promiscuity onto men. For instance:

    *No child support without a) a marriage, and b) a criminal conviction of the husband.
    *No state sanctioned abortion for any wimminz who doesn’t have a panel of physicians attesting to a) a life threatening consequence, or b) a serious deformity or illness in the child.
    *Criminal penalties for a married wimminz who fucks another man.
    *Criminal penalties for an unmarried wimminz who gets pregnant.

    In the Soviet Union, they used to send unmarried mothers to a work camp, for ripping off the social services agency. This would be a very good start for the U.S.A. In China, they still give a court-ordered hysterectomy to repeat single mothers. This would also be acceptable.

    Basically, if you want to cure our society, you need to reconstruct a healthy social system. You can’t merely encourage some piece of clothing. The wimminz laugh at shit like that.
71. Opus says:

    June 13, 2018 at 2:00 pm

    Boxer has what might appear to be some very good suggestions including considerable restrictions on abortion. I think it worth mentioning (as the English have never heard of Roe -v- Wade) that in Britain the law states and quite clearly that to obtain an abortion a woman must have certificates from not one but two medical practitioners stating that the continuation of the pregnancy (this is up to the end of the second trimester) would involve damage to the mental or physical health of the women. Some fifty-one years after the Act of Parliament reversing the complete ban on abortion there have been eight million abortions.
72. earl says:

    June 13, 2018 at 2:00 pm

    A big thing which would be a start in offloading the consequence of female promiscuity onto men is banning the pill and any other form of artificial contraception.

    How often do we hear the story about ‘oops’ when in fact she knew what she was doing in tricking the guy.
73. earl says:

    June 13, 2018 at 2:05 pm

    I’d probably ban abortion altogether as well even in those minor iffy cases. More often than not they use the iffy cases to get it legal so they can turn it into backup birth control for slutty wimminz. The whole safe, legal, rare thing falls apart with the rare part.

    You would know a woman would think twice about lots of sex with random men if…

    a) she didn’t have some blocker to stop pregnancy from casual sex
    and
    b) she didn’t get cash and prizes from the state for it.
74. earl says:

    June 13, 2018 at 2:11 pm

    Your second paragraph appears to contradict the first. I noted this, but screwed up formatting, so perhaps it was difficult to read. My apologies.

    I suppose it’s could be a chicken-egg thing…which causes which, the clothing forms the attitude or the attitude is the reason for clothing oneself like that.

    I suppose the test is to find a modestly dressed woman and see how she acts. It’s pretty simple to figure out how a scantly clad woman acts.
75. Damn Crackers says:

    June 13, 2018 at 2:24 pm

    @Boxer @Earl – In a strange way, women in the US did and do flaunt their head coverings in church. Look at a church scene from an old movie or look at a modern AME church in the hood. The women their have the largest and most ornate hats you will see anywhere.
76. Random Angeleno says:

    June 13, 2018 at 2:29 pm

    I am a Catholic. Will say the homilies remain about the particular liturgical time of year and about the readings of the day. The most mention of Mother’s and Father’s Day I’ve seen is at the very end of the Mass when the priest will typically take a moment to mention some announcements from the weekly bulletin. All I’ve seen done is they will ask mothers to stand on Mother’s Day and fathers to stand on Father’s Day, then they often engage the parish to bless them. This is only to say the rot hasn’t proceeded that far in the parishes I’ve attended Mass at.

    Last time I saw Fireproof mentioned at CAF, this was awhile back, someone posted that he thought the wife behaved like a whore and it got to him that she never apologized onscreen for doing so. Think that shut up that discussion as no one came on to debate this fellow. So while there is considerable feminist yakking over there, inroads do get in now and then. Don’t know what they thought of Courageous and War Room as I don’t scan it very often. Used to rely on Marcus to give us the CAF gifts that keep on giving; whatever happened to that guy?
77. Jacob Nessamar (Jacob) says:

    June 13, 2018 at 4:22 pm

    You folks talking up Eastern Orthodoxy and catholicism make me facepalm. You know your religions are just neoplatonism for the masses, right? Mix in a little paganism and ancestor worship. Just like “conservative christianity”. I’ll give you this, though… If the hypostatic union is true, then you Eastern Orthodox boys have the true and most consistent of the Christian faith. But it’s not, and you don’t. According to the Protestant Historicist understanding your religion and kingdoms were judged: The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. 21Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft.
78. poetentiate says:

    June 13, 2018 at 6:19 pm

    It’s takes some serious hormone poisoning and endless immersive propaganda to get young men to go for this in any numbers. You would think that they would want to try to avoid scaring them all away with the fabulous prospect of being the butt of jokes, the buffoon, the barely worthy of respect “servant-leader”, but no, they continue to barrel on down on the way over the cliff.
79. Frank K says:

    June 13, 2018 at 11:48 pm

    Its more of a resignation that hopefully it won’t infiltrate deep enough to destroy us like it has mainline protestantism. It’s a false hope, but that’s what it looks like to me.

    Take heart, Scott. The Soviets and their puppets were never able to destroy the church, and they certainly tried. They bulldozed churches or converted them into other uses (I recall that St. Stephen’s in Budapest was used as a stable by the communists), but the church survived and is back.
80. Sharkly says:

    June 14, 2018 at 1:46 am

    Damn Crackers says: What if one church just refused to let women into service without their head covered. Would that be a good start?

    Yes. Any start at rolling back Feminism, and following God, is good, even if it fails.

    One man scorned and covered with scars still strove with his last ounce of courage to reach the unreachable stars; and the world was better for this.
    ~Don Quixote, de la Mancha 1605-1615 ~Miguel de Cervantes

    Boxer says: It would take much more than a uniform change to reverse the feminist trend. … it would become a token of “oppression.”

    True. You are correct. But that is not why we should or shouldn’t do it anyway. Just because it would really bother feminists is almost reason enough. LOL

    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

    We should do this because God asks us to do it because of the angels. His ways are higher than ours and at many points completely inscrutable to us.
    Here are some other translations of the last verse that may explain it better:

    1 Corinthians 11:10 This means that a wife should wear a veil on her head as a sign she is under authority, especially when gathering in the company of heavenly messengers. (VOICE)

    1 Corinthians 11:10 Therefore, a woman should wear something on her head to show she is under someone’s authority, out of respect for the angels. (NOG)

    1 Corinthians 11:10 Therefore she should [be subject to his authority and should] have a covering on her head [as a token, a symbol, of her submission to authority, that she may show reverence as do] the angels [and not displease them]. (AMPC)

    We need to do it because God specifically asked for it, of us. And if we start throwing out commands we don’t like, we’ll never stop throwing parts of the Bible out, until society is opposed to it all, and completely opposed to the God who sent it to us.

    If my wife ever reconciles, I may have to have church at home to set the appropriate ‘church rules’. The church my wife currently takes my sons to has taught them to repeatedly chant “Jesus is my best friend”, I’m not sure if the fear of the Lord is adequately taught in that thought alone.
    Right now I fellowship with you gentlemen, and I almost never wear a head covering, except when I’m required to for safety.
81. DrTorch says:

    June 14, 2018 at 8:25 am

    You would think that they would want to try to avoid scaring them all away with the fabulous prospect of being the butt of jokes, the buffoon, the barely worthy of respect “servant-leader”,

    Men joke around and tease each other all the time. I don’t think the newcomers or young mean recognize the disdain behind it is real.
82. BillyS says:

    June 14, 2018 at 8:45 am

    Boxer,

    Why is this surprising to a bunch of self-described Christians and Jews on Dalrock? Your own religious texts allude to this much. In fact, it’s right at the beginning of your Bible.

    Many of us know this, but it is still sad.
83. Luke says:

    June 14, 2018 at 9:07 am

    Satire, but sadly plausible these days:

    http://babylonbee.com/news/man-forced-to-give-up-headship-of-home-after-failing-to-open-jar-of-peanut-butter/

    Man Forced To Give Up Headship Of Home After Failing To Open Jar Of Peanut Butter

    “EAGAN, MN—In a tragic end to his long-running role as head of the Johnson home, family patriarch Jared, 39, was forced to give up his biblical headship after failing to open a stuck peanut butter jar at the request of his wife Friday.

    The husband and father of three attempted to open the jar several times but was unable to loosen the cap in the slightest, prompting him to immediately give up his God-given authority over his household, per biblical guidelines.

    “It’s been an honor serving as head of the home for the past 15 years,” Johnson said in a statement. “I made some mistakes—that camping trip in Michigan three years ago wasn’t a highlight, that’s for sure—but I like to think my time as patriarch was beneficial to my wife as well as my kids. I’m definitely a better person because of it.”

    The man’s family wished him well in his new position as pathetic, submissive, beta father. “Frankly, we always suspected he wasn’t cut out for this. He had to call a mechanic to replace the transmission in our Pontiac last summer, and he only owns two power tools,” Johnson’s wife, Heather, told reporters. “His new role as passive wuss suits him much better.”

    Mrs. Johnson was subsequently able to open the jar, and immediately assumed Mr. Johnson’s former position as God-ordained leader of the home.”
84. Anonymous Reader says:

    June 14, 2018 at 9:09 am

    BillyS
    How many success stories of dating can you present?

    I’m not defending “dating”. “Dating” is largely dead, thanks in part to the hookup subculture.
85. BillyS says:

    June 14, 2018 at 9:35 am

    Then why do you demand strong alternatives if you say dating isn’t working anyway?
86. Anonymous Reader says:

    June 14, 2018 at 9:42 am

    BillyS
    
    Then why do you demand strong alternatives if you say dating isn’t working anyway?

    1. Wrong thread. This is supposed to be in “Payback”.
    2. Asking questions is not issuing a demand.
    3. Because fixing part of a problem, even if only at the micro level, is better than just whining about it. Your mileage may vary, though.

    I’m going to copy/paste this comment to “payback”.
87. BillyS says:

    June 14, 2018 at 9:47 am

    Moving there as well. Hard to keep these straight when we have multiple active threads.
88. Anonymous Reader says:

    June 14, 2018 at 7:22 pm

    Apropos of nothing at all, the World Cup soccer match (“football” for Opus and others) started today in Russia. There is a team from Saudi Arabia. It’s Ramadan. But guess what? That Saudi team got a special exemption from the Ramadan daylight fast. I have no idea how that kind of thing works in Islam, it’s just a form of religious legalism that’s pretty funny.
89. Dota says:

    June 14, 2018 at 10:38 pm

    That Saudi team got a special exemption from the Ramadan daylight fast. I have no idea how that kind of thing works in Islam, it’s just a form of religious legalism that’s pretty funny.

    There’s no exemption as such because they will have to make up the missed fast some other day. The same applies for any of Islam’s other obligatory rituals. If one of the 5 daily prayers is missed, it must be performed later on. In Islam, God isn’t really a father, more of a lenient creditor.
90. earl says:

    June 15, 2018 at 6:53 am

    In Islam, God isn’t really a father, more of a lenient creditor.

    That’s true, or you could argue He’s a demanding master…which is why it’s closer to a Matriarchy.
91. Dota says:

    June 15, 2018 at 8:52 am

    you could argue He’s a demanding master

    He’s an accountant and creditor, and this is the most peculiar aspect of Islam in my view. I guess the point was to envision a just God that takes every single action into account, but this has made Islam’s God so impartial so as to becoming nearly impersonal. Every deed (good or bad) is recorded by a pair of angels and if the good outweighs the bad, one enters paradise, else down the other way you go. I suppose in Christianity one owes God gratitude for bestowing his bounty and grace upon mankind, in a general sense. In Islam, the debts the are very real and have a numerical score attached to them. If an individual (for example) lives to the age of 70 and then dies, he owes God (70-7) * 5 = 315 prayers. I wonder if the Catholics are big on numbers in this same way while I’m guessing you Protestants aren’t.
92. Opus says:

    June 15, 2018 at 9:00 am

    It always strikes me as Hubris for there to be a World Series in Baseball when the only teams come from your country, and yet, the World Cup is always when you get down to the last sixteen – which is all that really matters – an inter-european tournament with the odd additional added South American side (South Americans usually having European ancestors). American soccer is a great joke here and yet in no less than two World Cups we have been beaten by your eleven. For a country wherein Soccer is seen as girl’s game you do very well and it is a pity that this time you are missing.

    We call it Football (at least unlike your Football we actually use our feet to kick the ball) and yet Soccer is an English term being a contraction of the expression Association Football hence soccer – but we don’t tend to use it preferring footer or footie.
93. OKRickety says:

    June 15, 2018 at 10:48 am

    Opus,

    I don’t think I’d ever heard that the word soccer was derived from “Association Football” or “Association Footballer”. It seems a rather tortuous etymology, but one site pointed out that another possible derivation would have been “asser”. 🙂

    Your point about the location of the teams in the World Series is generally true, but do note that one team, the Toronto Blue Jays, is located in Canada. There was also a team in Montreal from 1969 to 2004, but they relocated to Washington, D.C.
94. ray says:

    June 15, 2018 at 11:37 pm

    The past few weeks I’d been hoping for just such a post. Thank you.

    The incidence of father-hatred and woman-idolatry in American Protestantism — particularly of the Celebrity Christian/Professional Christian type so favored by females — has been conclusively illustrated herein over the years.

    But requiring full treatment was contextual evidence of the consistency and pervasiveness of these anti-Kingdom attitudes and behaviours. The canvassing technique of this OP fills that gap; indeed, many anti-masculine and anti-father Christians are amongst the most popular preachers and ‘pastors’ in the land. What you ably present is now the standard of modern Protestantism, not the exception. More like plummet than falling-away.

    These individuals and their false churches are in rebellion against Malachi 4:6, and that verse should be sufficient to convince them that God takes this rebellion very hard, and does not forgive it. Jeshua suffered and died to facilitate the Kingdom of the FATHER. To work against it is bad enough, but to profit from works against Christ’s Kingdom is especially vile, and utterly self-destructive. The LORD hates cowards, as they shame the gift of masculinity the Holy One placed in creatures fashioned of mud. It betrays the trust and faith He placed in them.

    We initiate war by following the King’s examples opening the ‘dossier’ for our times (the Book of Revelation) — the churches, meaning any group with Christ as ostensible focus of worship, gets fried first. Those too proud and/or timid to get the message now will stay here as long as it takes. Their nonsense about being raptured is sad, collective dreaming. Strong delusion. Why would Jeshua snatch them into His (heavenly) army, at the thresh-hold of the planet, when they labor against His very commands and purposes?
95. JRob says:

    June 17, 2018 at 2:37 am

    The eunuch Evangelical “leaders” hand the reins to the progressives, causing even more men to abandon ship. Twenty years from now one of these sermons may resemble this piece from the Chicago Tribune. **Eye bleach warning.
96. MKT says:

    June 17, 2018 at 4:45 pm

    Breath of fresh air:
    http://warriorsandwildmen.libsyn.com/dear-dads-no-matter-what-the-man-haters-say-youre-irreplaceable
97. seventiesjason says:

    June 17, 2018 at 6:23 pm

    Went to the local Salvation Army Corps here in my new city of Santa Rosa. The “fathers day” sermon began with “all the single moms today that have to be the dad….and they deserve to bve saluted”

    Sinking ship, ready to be scuttled……..but the sermon focused on God the Father, and refernces to the Prodical Son…….and no, not the best sermon…..but the ship pulled into port, heavily damanged but saveable. I left feeling okay.
98. seventiesjason says:

    June 17, 2018 at 6:24 pm

    When I trhink of footsie……..all that comes to mind is a northern soul dance step. Better that “soccer” and “football” IMHO 😉
99. Paul says:

    June 17, 2018 at 6:40 pm

    While listening to a Father’s day sermon (which wasn’t too bad until the preacher started emphasizing that God the Father also has characteristics of a Mother), I read a part in my recently acquired ESV translation. I was actually shocked when I read the translation 1 Cor 11 with its explanatory notes:

    But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife[a] is her husband,[b] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife[c] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.[d]

    The notes explain:
    1 Corinthians 11:3 Greek gunē. This term may refer to a woman or a wife, depending on the context
    1 Corinthians 11:3 Greek anēr. This term may refer to a man or a husband, depending on the context
    1 Corinthians 11:5 In verses 5–13, the Greek word gunē is translated wife in verses that deal with wearing a veil, a sign of being married in first-century culture

    This is shocking! In this whole section, Greek gune is translated differently depending on an assumed arbitrary context, as is aner, but it is completely inconsistent.

    the head of a wife (NOT woman) is her husband (NOT man). Note that “her” is not in the Greek.
    Every man (NOT husband here!!) … but every wife (NOT woman here!!)…
    For if a wife (NOT woman here!!) … For a man (NOT husband here!!) .. but woman (NOT wife here!!) is the glory of man (NOT husband here!!). For man (NOT husband) was not made from woman (NOT wife), but woman (NOT wife) from man (NOT husband). Neither was man (NOT husband) created for woman (NOT wife), but woman (NOT wife) for man (NOT husband). That is why a wife (NOT a woman here!!!!!) …

    The wearing of a head covering is reduced to (married) women only. The study notes refer to Roman marriage custom for wives to wear head-covering.

    I cannot believe they tortured this section and forced their interpretation upon it, which is clearly inconsistent, illogical, and does not even make sense. The whole reasoning of St. Paul is made to disappear.

    I instantly regretted buying the ESV.
100. AnonS says:

     June 18, 2018 at 7:44 am

     Visited an EO Church. Don’t think I would fit in there but for Father’s Day the only difference was a segment giving thanks and reading the names of fathers and grandfathers that had passed and a blessing for current fathers; it was a nice touch.
101. Hmm says:

     June 18, 2018 at 9:46 am

     Babylon Bee reading Dalrock?

     https://babylonbee.com/news/fathers-day-updated-to-toxic-masculinity-awareness-day/

     [D: Hilarious!]
102. Oscar says:

     June 18, 2018 at 12:00 pm

     @ Dota says:
     June 14, 2018 at 10:38 pm

     In Islam, God isn’t really a father, more of a lenient creditor.

     In Islam, referring to God as “father” is blasphemy. That may be one reason why feminists prefer Islam over Christianity.
103. Heidi says:

     June 18, 2018 at 12:15 pm

     You know, Hmmm, they might:

     https://babylonbee.com/news/pastor-who-breathlessly-praised-mothers-last-month-absolutely-thrashes-congregations-dads-on-fathers-day/

     Or maybe they’ve just noticed the same trend Dalrock has.
104. Paul says:

     June 19, 2018 at 4:53 am

     … and apparently the interpretation on head covering for married women only is promoted by Wayne Grudem in his “Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth: An Analysis of More than 100 Disputed Questions”

     http://www.bible-researcher.com/headcoverings2.html

     “Rather, [St.Paul] is concerned because of what wearing a head covering symbolized to people in Corinth. So we should ask whether wearing a head covering symbolizes any of these things today. At least in twenty-first-century America, it symbolizes none of these things!”

     Boom! One-step approach to declare any instruction that St Paul might have to be culturally dependent, and hence irrelevant for today’s culture.

     “the very fact that it does not symbolize much of anything to people today, even to Christians, is a strong argument that Paul would not have wanted us to follow it as sort of a meaningless symbol.”

     Paul would not have wanted us to follow a meaningless symbol…. really?
     And when, how, and by whom did this symbol became meaningless??

     “Therefore in every verse in which head covering is mentioned, the ESV translates gune as “wife.””

     Really? Then tell me, why was not the same “principle” applied to translate man as “husband” in these cases?

     ESV:
     Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head..
     For a man ought not to cover his head…

     ” If wearing a head covering in ancient Corinth was a symbol of being a woman, that is still not the meaning for a woman wearing a head covering in western societies today. And therefore head coverings should not be required for women today.”

     Really? St.Paul is talking about a practice IN THE CHURCH (“but every wife[c] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered”), he does not mention anything about wearing head covering in public, hence the comparison with “today’s western (!) society” is irrelevant. And he conveniently “forgets” that in other parts of the world women DO wear head coverings.
105. BillyS says:

     June 19, 2018 at 1:24 pm

     ray,

     Their nonsense about being raptured is sad, collective dreaming. Strong delusion. Why would Jeshua snatch them into His (heavenly) army, at the thresh-hold of the planet, when they labor against His very commands and purposes?

     Because God’s wrath is for His enemies, not the true members of His Church. I will let Him decide who that is and isn’t. I am not smart enough to even pretend to be God like you are.

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108. Moose Norseman says:

     October 22, 2018 at 7:44 pm

     Been listening to a podcast by a California priest, and heard a good Father’s Day sermon today. It reminded me of this post, so I thought I’d share it.

     https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/thearena/the_character_of_the_father_3rd_sunday_after_pentecost

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