As a society both left and right love the system we’ve replaced marriage with (child support) far too much to make any serious changes. That the Heritage Foundation chose Genevieve Wood, a never married childless woman* to deliver their message that declining marriage rates are a serious problem is only one small indicator of this.
Still, the real effects of our rejecting marriage as a family model are piling up, and they risk limiting the resources our elites have to play with. While they aren’t yet serious, one day a significant portion of our elites will likely start to become so.
*At least this would appear to be the case based on her Heritage Foundation Bio. It is also possible that she has married and the Heritage Foundation doesn’t view that as significant.
H/T Instapundit
“As a society both left and right love the system…..”
Almost everyone is left now, whether they realize it or not. It’s just a question of how far to the left one is. Part of our problem is people are profoundly in denial about what they actually are. You have milquetoast leftists who want to preserve what is, i.e. “conservatives.” Then you have leftists who want to keep changing what is, i.e. progressives. But they are all in agreement on fundamental core values. That is why they both love the system.
The foundation. Focused on family/church reform heavily from 2009 ish to 2011. It then ended.
The foundation receives tons of money from overseas, and from interests within the US that don’t care about family issues or abortion.
Their order of importance for research is Economy, military, anything else, and family.
Their focus has changed a lot since Feulner stepped down, Demint took over, and with demints firing.
The good ol boy network of those raised in the beltway are back in charge.
Don’t think they will do anything not tolerated by establishment liberals
I’ve written before about experiences at certain nonprofits in certain locations, and how I ran into a person overseeing family research, with their …fling.
“While they aren’t yet serious, one day a significant portion of our elites will likely start to become so.”
Um, no. This is what mass immigration is FOR: an endless supply of new meat to labor in debt and wage slavery as an eternal dynamo of wealth and power for the elites. And with more automation, the necessary size of that pool will be ever growing smaller.
@Eric
I don’t doubt that the intent is to replace American workers and taxpayers with immigrants. But I do doubt that it will pay off as intended. For one thing, our divorce laws are devastating the second generation Hispanic family. Some of our elites would no doubt be content limiting the military power at their disposal to a scaled up version of say the Guatemalan armed forces. But not all. Likewise for taxes, economic power, etc.
@Dalrock @Eric
May I suggest that the objective is to replace consumers? That’s how economies are assessed nowadays: how much consumption? Consumption equals “growth”.
They have plenty of workers where the factories are.
But if consumers don’t reproduce, they need to find more of them somewhere.
It’s not that they want to replace you as much as they *have to* because they’ve rendered you incapable of doing so yourself.
And everyone needs that growth to continue…
https://www.domesticshelters.org/articles/identifying-abuse/withholding-intimacy-can-be-abusive-too
Men withholding sex from women is sexual abuse, apparently.
How will the complementarians view this? Are not men merely communicating God’s will through their withholding of intimacy?
@A Portuguese Man
I would agree that consumers are what they want more than workers. Likewise tax payers. But the same problem persists.
The Heritage Foundation is Neocon central. They claim to be pro marriage anti homosexual marriage. But Russia, the country most aligned with their professed values, is at the top of their enemy list. Heritage Foundation is just a scam to keep the wool pulled over the eyes of Christian conservatives.
I took a look at parts of a couple of Wood’s videos from the ‘Bio’ page Dalrock references, to see if she was wearing any rings on her left hand in any of the more recent ones (re: D’s ‘never married’ comment). In Jan 2018, she isn’t wearing any rings on her left hand at all (the EWTN video). The others I quickly checked, her hands weren’t shown.
In her 2019 appearances, she’s wearing a gold ring on her left hand… but her waving her hands as she speaks, makes it tough to tell which finger it’s on. And it doesn’t seem to have a “wedding diamond”. She also had, in the April 2019 C-SPAN video, a habit of covering up that left hand when she wasn’t speaking.
@Dalrock @A Portuguese Man
Hope I’m not being offensive, but I think that viewing pur current system as focused on consuming is a bit shortsighted. I think one needs to look at the ultimate ends of the oligarchic and bureaucratic class.
The ultimate end of any aristocracy is to render all other classes into a slave caste, thus making aristocratic power absolute and unchallenged. To use the needs and desires of a population to create this state is the most effective means of doing so – people rebel against tyrants, but not against those they depend on.
This can be done in a capitalistic society by making non-consuming lifestyles impractical: e.g., I NEED a cellphone to do my job now…ten years ago I did not, and ten years before that I didn’t need a pager either, or a computer. But technology allows capitalism to demand ever higher levels of production for ever lower compensation, and ever more dependence on the autocrats who control production.
Combine this with “planned obsolescence” and ever lower quality of every product – e.g. my shirts wear out in two years now, and chip bags have less and less in them – and we see the ultimate form of this appearing: where men and women work as long as possible for as little as possible to the benefit of the oligarchy of business and government.
Of course, one needs to keep people unaware of this, so that is where things like intersectionality, Marxism, feminism, etc. come in, to divide and conquer. Add in a reasonably sized welfare class reliant on handouts to intimidate and do violence and be allowed to do violence (welfare class, the military, police), and you can theoretically keep the whole construction going forever, so long as you can forever import new workers and producers from the second and third worlds.
I would argue that the real effects are serious to every male who receives divorce papers.
Pingback: The Heritage Foundation isn’t serious yet, but one day they might be. | Reaction Times
@Eric
>> and you can theoretically keep the whole construction going forever <<
This presumes that they even CARE about the "forever"… or indeed anything much beyond their own lifetimes (whether that be a single decade or two, or perhaps a bit over five decades, it is significantly less than "forever").
I would note the quote from Keynes: "In the long run, we're all dead."
Which of course is technically true however you want to look at it — future generations will have to "cope" with whatever hand they are dealt — and the virtue of concern (TRUE concern) for one's own progeny (and the generations that follow) only alters that equation to the extent that it is SINCERE… and of course even then it can be mistaken (i.e. "the road to H*ll is paved with good intentions").
@Dalrock
I concur. The problem will only worsen.
It took many centuries to tear Christian civilisation apart and its consumption provided fabulous profit. Others will be consumed ever more faster for ever less profit.
@Dalrock @Eric
Another problem I don’t see addressed much except by a particularly astute friend of mine is the fact that the elites are attempting to replace the population of highly educated and skilled workers with a population of unskilled agrarians. The consequence being that the agrarians will not have the technical skills necessary to maintain the infrastructure which is already crumbling faster than it can be repaired. Just look at the number of dams on American rivers that are in danger of failing.
@Eric
No offence taken.
But I would reply that rather than mine being shortsighted, it may be yours that is “over-sighted”, in the sense that you are seeing more than there is to it.
I do not agree with your assessment on aristocracy. I do not think this exists any longer in what remains of Christianity. The people that rule over us are not an aristocracy, IMO. I do agree that they are an oligarchy, though.
Nevertheless, consumption is what keeps the show going. And keeping the show going is paramount to keep being the oligarchy.
Remember these people are, for the most part, also a product of the society they live in. They have it easy materially on our expense, but morally and spiritually they’re not immune to the shit they promote.
Their sense will degrade just as they degrade society. They’re not interested in fixing it, even from their own perspective.
As JB Harshaw comments above, they do not care. I’d posit they cannot care.
AntiFem
Men withholding sex from women is sexual abuse, apparently.
I’m pretty sure that’s somewhere in the Duluth power wheel. Not joking.
How will the complementarians view this?
With equinamity.
Are not men merely communicating God’s will through their withholding of intimacy?
Of course not. “It’s different when men do it”. Because Men Bad, Women Good…
There are many homosexuals who work/ed for heritage.
Wait, wait, waitaminnit, wasn’t Gay Marriage supposed to fix all of these problems?
What went wrong?
https://fee.org/articles/the-america-that-was-the-bad-and-the-good
An observation from the mid 1830s
The American is a model of industry…. The manners and customs are altogether those of a working, busy society. At the age of fifteen years, a man is engaged in business; at twenty-one he is established, he has his farm, his workshop, his counting-room, or his office, in a word his employment, whatever it may be.
He now also takes a wife, and at twenty-two is the father of a family, and consequently has a powerful stimulus to excite him to industry. A man who has no profession, and, which is the same thing, who is not married, enjoys little consideration; he, who is an active and useful member of society, who contributes his share to augment the national wealth and increase the numbers of the population, he only is looked upon with respect and favor.
The American is educated with the idea that he will have some particular occupation, that he is to be a farmer, artisan, manufacturer, merchant, speculator, lawyer, physician, or minister, perhaps all in succession, and that, if he is active and intelligent, he will make his fortune.
He has no conception of living without a profession, even when his family is rich, for he sees nobody about him, not engaged in business. The man of leisure is a variety of the human species, of which the Yankee does not suspect the existence, and he knows that if rich today, his father may be ruined tomorrow. Besides, the father himself is engaged in business, according to custom, and does not think of dispossessing himself of his fortune; if the son wishes to have one at present, let him make it himself!
… An American is always on the lookout lest any of his neighbours should get the start of him. If one hundred Americans were going to be shot, they would contend for the priority, so strong is their habit of competition.
Off-topic, but here is an article that is a thinly (oh the irony) disguised propaganda story about how chunky soccer-girls are really cool and attractive. Timed to coincide with women’s World Cup. No comment section, of course.
https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/6/14/18679019/fifa-women-world-cup-fashion-soccer-style-adidas
“America’s [sic] declining marriage [sic] rate is a real problem.”
Another small indicator that the heritage foundation is not serious: the solutions offered. Renewed squabbling over minutiae concerning the distribution of government currency, and more
educationarming young people with the knowledge of the hard facts of the benefits of so-called marriage and the co$t$ of broken so-called families. Cringeworthily crass and tacky.But, who has ever heard of a serious clown? If the heritage foundation does get serious, they will get kicked out of clown world. And those big shoes kick hard!!
https://twitter.com/genevievewood/status/910209543447162882 she’s a widow.
Gentlemen, OT
https://www.treasurestatepsychologicalservices.com/blog/ambivalence-as-social-skill-for-survival
Good night.
The “elite” are getting concerned that they won’t have enough worker slaves in the future.
“After a few weeks I began to notice a pattern. My man emerged from his meetings excited, refreshed, focused, challenged, equipped, and connected to me. I walked out of my support group angry – more and more offended by his sin.
The difference? His group offered forgiveness. Mine offered coddling.”
“Churches are often aggressive in policing husbands’ sins, but they’re reluctant to confront wives about theirs. Here are five reasons why: ”
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/churchformen/2019/06/five-reasons-churches-correct-men-and-coddle-women/?fbclid=IwAR14fcoX6Yppo02pwZ5smJ6B0YDmf9RR1u-TKW6Y7HIqTVfOQPRJSQKOkx8
MIFOREST,
The widow is Mary Katherine Hamm. (Hamm claims to be very conservative but she was married to a liberal guy who worked for President Obama.) Wood is just retweeting the article.
By coincidence I had a conversation last night with my friend when I voiced the view that no one including himself (he is married – for the second time) took marriage seriously. The cause of that opinion was a discussion we were having as to Fawlty Towers and how the younger generation would have difficulty understanding (in this instance) how Basil was getting annoyed by reason of the fact that an unmarried couple wanted a room with a double bed. They agree to have two singles! I then explained to my friend through personal experiences and also reference to two movies* from the late 60s early 70s that in those days and notwithstanding loss of custom hoteliers would not accept unmarried couples sharing a room. I also mentioned that gay poster-boy Alan Turing was turned away in 1941 from a hotel where he had previously booked a room for himself and his then fiancee. So much for his being a faggot. Even those who think that they believe in marriage do not do so.
May I take issue with Eric and his prediction that with automation the pool of workers will shrink. He may of course prove correct but that was exactly what they said in the fifties – I can recall jokes from the 1960s as to people sitting around enquiring of their friends where they might be going this year for their two weeks work. Did not happen that way then and so I doubt it will do so in the future.
*Crossplot (1969) and Deadly Strangers (1975)
People keep repeating the lie that low birth rates cause mass immigration. Reality is our birth rates were well above replacement in the 60’s when the 1965 immigration act was passed.
Mass immigration causes low birth rates.
That the Heritage Foundation chose Genevieve Wood, a never married childless woman* to deliver their message that declining marriage rates are a serious problem is only one small indicator of this.
You’re overthinking this. Wood is the head flack at Heritage. She delivers all sorts of ‘messages’. What she doesn’t do is produce actual social research projects. She doesn’t have the training for that.
Are libertarians reactionary ? A lot of the answer goes to whether conservative = preserve (and/or restore) the Constitution (and the ammendment process) or whether conservative = status quo. I wouldn’t mind a sudden return to Constitutional Federalism. I know many ‘conservatives’ would want to make it a gentle and slow process… in some ways methodology and ideology are perhaps better married on the left. The perception that you can’t be hasty in method to restore tradition as an ideology because it’s somehow leftist to do so is perhaps why things are currently where they are.
I don’t think Wood is married. None of her online bios list spouse name. All her bios list a long series of accomplishments and professional positions. Wood is essentially a political operative and policy wonk. She’s worked for think tanks like Heritage almost her entire professional career. According to info aggregator sites, a “Genevieve Wood” fitting her bio is 51 years old and lists parents with last name of Wood and one sister under another name. So I doubt she’s married.
KInda of OT, but thought I’d drop it here.
The heritage foundation sounds like my liberal mother. I cant believe it people used to live well off one income what strange force caused this. Its called feminism what dont you like about it? Its not inflation or some political scheme women begged for this and are the total driving force. I remember somewhere in my redpill journey when i learned women file for divorce 75% of the time yet they always talk about the divorce rate as gender neutral?
Not 1 out of 1000 articles or public commentary on divorce label women as the culprit and total cause of this problem but they are the total cause.
This shows intent they research spend time man power and thought on making this commentary and never blame the actual perpertrator for whats going on. This doesnt happen anywhere else they arnt talkimg about educating women on staying married she might b bored/mystery abuse. They know the truth this is not an accident.
archerwfisher says:
June 15, 2019 at 10:40 am
Both are true. Mass immigration mainly involves low skilled workers. Excess low skilled workers = low parental investment = high birth rate.
Lack of low skilled workers = high parental investment = low birth rates.
Feminism = no/low birth rates = mass immigration
What actually happened is that a large group of people became unemployable. Some because their jobs were automated away or shipped to another (cheaper) country, others because the nature of their jobs changed and they couldn’t adapt to the new requirements (I’m talking about the middle aged) and they experienced age discrimination as well.
Not sure how this manifests itself in the UK, but what happened to many middle aged in the US is that they were laid off, couldn’t find a new job before their meager unemployment benefits expired so they applied for SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance), which has now become very difficult to obtain. So in a way the 1950’s predictions did come true. Many of these people also work in the underground economy, so that they won’t lose their SSDI benefits, which would happen with a menial, but legit job,
What did not happen was a Jetson’s like scenario where George Jetson works a couple of hours a day pushing buttons. Today’s George Jetson works 10 hours a day solving difficult problems. Maybe by writing code, designing a circuit or maybe designing something mechanical. But the job George did in the show was automated away.
@ERIC
Nailed it!
I don’t think Wood is married.
It’s a reasonable wager she isn’t. Genevieve Wood is certainly her maiden name. She was born in Bowie County, Tx on 30 May 1968. She was enrolled at Baylor ca. 1988 under that name (and a member of the Pre-law Society). She later transferred to the College of Charleston. A White Pages search pulls up the names of a brother and sister. A MyLife search pulls up an odd jumble of names which might be people who lived in her apartment building or some such.
https://texarkanarbc.org/profile/henry-wood/
Here is a capsule biography of her father, who is a Baptist minister and retired history teacher. All of the grandchildren listed are the issue of her sister. (I’m guessing “Eric Wood” is a cousin rather than a brother and the Rev. Wood apparently has just the two daughters). Another small irony: her mother is a retired schoolteacher; taught home ec.
Not sure why it never came together for this woman.
Mum and lesbian lover tear off 9-year-old son’s penis then behead him ‘as he reminded her of her dad’ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9300395/mum-son-lesbian-lover-murder-killed-brazil/
A MUM and her lesbian lover tore off her nine-year-old son’s penis before beheading him because he reminded her of her dad.
Mum Rosana Cândido, 27, and Kacyla Pessoa, 28, of Brazil, stabbed the boy over a dozen times and removed all the skin from his face before butchering his body.
The pair were said to have even used a knife to try to gouge out the boy’s eyeballs to prevent possible recognition. …
In a gory twist, they are also accused of tearing off Cândido’s son Rhuan’s penis a year ago during horrifying home-made surgery.
The two women are said to have told investigators they used “rudimentary tools” because Rhuan “wanted to become a girl.”
Local reports say: “After removing his penis, the women said they sewed an improvised version of the female organ onto the mutilated area.”
Cândido reportedly claimed the lad was a “burden” and a hindrance to her relationship with Pessoa.
She also “felt hatred and no love” for him because he reminded her of father, who allegedly abused her.
Rhuan’s dad, who lives in Acre, is said to have told officers that Cândido run away with the boy five years ago when he lost custody.
So much to unpack here.
* Lesbian couple.
* Murder and torture of one son.
* “Botched” sex change operation on another son.
* Lesbian admits to hating her son because he resembled his father.
* Father lost custody of his son (now dead) to lesbian ex-wife.
The elderly Nigerian priest at my Catholic church says that many murders are caused by Satanic possession. “The devil is real,” he keeps reminding us.
PS: June is International LGBT Pride Month.
Thanks for the article RPL. Yep. Lesbian women make the best mothers. LGBTQRPSTFetc. activists told me as such and I for one believe my overlords!
Not sure why it never came together for this woman.
Oh, that’s not that hard to figure out.
She is “of a type” here in the DC area — highly educated, good looking but not quite beautiful, expectations in the clouds, unable to attract a man who meets her lofty standards. Maureen Dowd is a slightly older version. Again, these women are, or were when younger, attractive enough to get great men pursuing them, but not the caliber they wanted because they wanted true top shelf men — and while they are pretty and attractive (again at least while younger), they’re not on the top shelf, so they end up frustrated and single. They are in droves here in DC really.
@Nick Mgtow June 15 8:27 AM
Good find. She couldn’t defeat the hamster despite her (supposed) best effort. The Holy Spirit told.her she was controlling, but men should still be on time etc etc. The usual, wrapped in a “close but no cigar” skin.
RPL, yup. And that’s probably not toxic femininity, but the fault of patriarchy!
JRob: the hamster is essential for survival of the Jezebel mindset!
That story from the Sun concerned events in Brasil. We have another Lesbian story doing the rounds here. This is what happened: two foreign lesbians (but white women) were travelling on the top deck of a red London bus, sitting at the front. They began making out which annoyed the young Black Muslim boys at the back of the bus and so the young Muslim boys beat up the Lesbians. It is only by implication that one knows the boys are black or Muslim because the press has been silent as to ethnicity. Naturally the Lesbians are shocked at the lack of tolerance towards Lesbians in Londonistan. The childless Prime Minister-ess said it was terrible. Others less charitable have said it is part and parcel like Islamic Terrorism of living in a world city
Frankly, even hetero couples tend not even in the heat of passion in public to make their attraction unnecessarily obvious but Lesbians like Homos seem always to want to rub it in ones face. A friend of mine said he experienced one weekday morning on the train into London two Lezzers going at it with each other. He naturally found it a turn-on and because this is middle-class down here and not Muslim the matter never reached the ears of the Prime Minister. This will change.
LGBTQ – Let God Burn Them Quickly
She is “of a type” here in the DC area — highly educated, good looking but not quite beautiful, expectations in the clouds, unable to attract a man who meets her lofty standards.
1. She’s not extensively educated. She has a BA from a state college in South Carolina.
2. Per the Census Bureau, about 30% of the female population over the age of 15 in the country at large has never been married. There are 12 jurisdictions around DC: the District itself, 2 counties in Maryland, 4 counties in Virginia, and 5 stand-alone municipalities in Virginia. In them live 2.11 million women over the age of 15, of whom 750,000 (35.5%) have never been married. The situation there really is not that different.
3. Everything from the word ‘expectations’ onward in your remark is the issue of your imagination.
Not sure how this manifests itself in the UK, but what happened to many middle aged in the US is that they were laid off, couldn’t find a new job before their meager unemployment benefits expired so they applied for SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance), which has now become very difficult to obtain.
Functional eligibility standards used to be more exacting than they are today, not less. Processing a claim for Disability benefits typically takes a couple of years worth of paperwork, wait-time, hearings, and appeals. About 60% of those who apply are turned down. The median age of a person who is awarded benefits is about 49 years; fewer than 20% of those awarded benefits have any dependents. The ratio of those classified as ‘disabled workers’ to those currently working is about 0.05. The ratio of men to women in the beneficiary population (1.05:1) is a tad lower than the ratio of men to women currently working (1.13:1). The ratio of those classified as ‘disabled workers’ (and not dependents of disabled workers) to those currently working is about 0.05. Among women, employment-to-population ratios between the ages of 25 and 55 hardly vary. Women 25-34, 35-44, and 45-54 have the same ratio: 0.72. Among men they vary some: 0.857, 0.886, 0.846. Typical award is around $1,200 a month, sometimes more, sometimes less.
Men and women alike begin shuffling out of the workforce at age 55. The availability of disability benefits is indubitably influences that, but the subset who seek out and obtain benefits they wouldn’t have sought out bar for late-middle-aged downsizing has to be an awfully small segment of the population.
Everything from the word ‘expectations’ onward in your remark is the issue of your imagination.
Uh, no, it’s the issue of my observation having lived among highly educated professional women in the DC area for about 25 years. Feminists like you like to think otherwise, but it’s fine — we see you, and we see through you.
@Novaseeker
“They are in droves here in DC really.”
DC for sure, but really any large city in the USA has a high concentration of alpha widows who were roughly 5’s and 6’s: hot enough for Chad to bang but not hot enough (or frankly bearable enough) to hook him in for the long term. They wait too long, hit the wall, and it’s all over except for the cats, tears and whining about “no good men”.
Hypergamy and an out-of-control sexual marketplace hurts women too, given their poor ability to connect their behavior with its consequences.
Kate Bolick is the poster child for this type of spinster.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/308654/
Not sure why it never came together for this woman.
Novaseeker beat me to it, but the short answer is that, despite decades of propaganda to the contrary, men, especially successful men intent on starting families, don’t care for ball-busting feminist career women, especially the Beltway-dwelling type. Good for pump-n-dump sex (maybe, if a man is desperate enough and of such moral inclination), but non-starters as wives.
And yes, having spent nearly 20 years in nd around Beltwayland myself, I can heartily confirm the truth of NS’s observation. These women are just flat-out unsuitable for any kind of committed relationship, especially for a Christian man who wants a family.
Uh, no, it’s the issue of my observation having lived among highly educated professional women in the DC area for about 25 years. Feminists like you like to think otherwise, but it’s fine — we see you, and we see through you.
Your acutely observant self just slapped the label ‘feminist’ on a middle-aged man who took exception to two factual errors on your part and an opinion expressed about someone you wouldn’t know from a cord of wood. Your acuity is just … overwhelming
I have been reflecting on
@Frank K
at 09.35 on the 15th and I stand rightly corrected.
It seems to me that the more people are educated the less they work. By example my Gt Gt Grandfather who could only sign his name with an ‘x’ died of a heart attack whilst working aged seventy-six. Contrast so many of my generation who despite one and more degrees are retired by fifty. The Industrial Revolution has produced many wonderful things and as many horrors.
LGBTQ – Let God Burn Them Quickly
I’ve had some trouble remembering the letters as they’ve added more on…
this is a very helpful mnemonic! I’ll definitely remember now.
I think it depends on who was their employer. Here in the US, in many states (especially the ones with exorbitant property taxes) you will find that state, county and municipal employees retire young with fat pensions. Those in the private sector are told they have to save for their retirements, and those who get dejobbed in their 50’s are often not financially ready to retire, plus there is the issue of funding their healthcare.
There is an issue with state and municipal pension plans (I believe you call those super annuities), as most states they are woefully underfunded (as in trillions of dollars underfunded) and there is a crisis brewing, which few talk about as they whistle past the graveyard.
As for who the middle aged dejobbed are, at least in the US, it’s pretty much across the board. Many are educated and find themselves shoved out the door after a mass layoff, with little hope of finding a similar replacement job. Some are semiskilled. The only ones who seem to find work are the menial wage folks. The local WalMart has a lot of employees like that. Some look to be old enough to collect Social Security, but I suspect that they can’t get by on that alone. so they continue to work at places like WalMart for $11-13 an hour, until they are too feeble.
@MIFOREST: that tweet is a link to a piece written by a different woman.
Frank K, there’s a bag “boy” at my local supermarket who looks to be in his 60s or 70s. I feel sorry for him. On the totem pole, he ranks lower than the cashiers.
A “news” story about a bride who pressured a wedding guest to cover up her tattoos and change her blue hair to a normal color: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7143311/Bride-SLAMMED-asking-guest-cover-tattoos-change-hair-color.html
Apparently, their lengthy Twitter/Facebook battle has gone viral.
… Trouble first started between the guest and the bride-to-be after a text message exchange revealed how the bride wanted the woman to change her appearance for the wedding.
The guest has tattoos along her arms and also dyed her hair blue, which was apparently too clashing for the bride when attending the event.
‘I wanted to ask if you could please make sure your tattoos are covered & could you maybe fix your hair up so it’s a natural color?’ We’ve put a lot of work into our theme and I’m sorry but your look clashes with it,’ the bride wrote in the text message.
‘Even if you just put some spray or something on your hair for the night,’ she continued. ‘I just want it to all look perfect and I can send you some ideas for nice long sleeved dresses for you to wear or just wear a jacket.’
The guest admitted she was shocked by the request, given the wedding was in peak summertime and she was not a member of the wedding party.
‘Umm the wedding is in summer so I’m not sure I could wear a long sleeve dress or jacket? I’m really sensitive to [heat] so I just don’t think I can do that if it’s a hot day,’ the guest responded.
“If you want to be there you will figure it out,’ the bride responded. ‘It doesn’t matter that you’re not in the wedding party you’ll still be in photos and you will ruin them. You’re very pretty normally but your work doesn’t work for my wedding and it is very simple to ask you to do something simple so that my day is perfect.’ …
I don’t know which is funniest.
* The obsessive bride controlling every element of her “perfect day.”
* The Amazing Clown-Haired Tattooed Woman.
* The legions of Twitter and Facebook followers that took their battle viral.
RPL
I don’t know which is funniest.
In Clown World one must always be prepared to embrace the power of “and”.
What did the groom have to say, anyone care to guess?
OT
Having a Twitter spat with a feminist named “Minerva”, lovely woman.
I’m looking for an honest study on the financial effects on men of divorce. Most of the studies are done by feminists who focus on woman, and frankly I don’t trust the data or conclusions in these studies.
Please post a link if you have one.
From Dalrock’s perspective, what I learned from a quick Google search is that there is a cottage industry of feminist researchers who are claiming men are making out like bandits in their divorces.
I kid you not.
Including this Guardian piece that contradicts common sense and seems to have major factual problems, eg, men’s salary’s increase 25% right at divorce? Come again? Their boss gives them a raise because they divorced?
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/25/divorce-women-research
Emperor Constantine
I learned from a quick Google search is that there is a cottage industry of feminist researchers who are claiming men are making out like bandits in their divorces.
That’s been a “thing” for at least 25 years. It’s another example of “{Bad thing} happens, women most affected”.
The number of divorcees who wind up getting scammed is an indication that “women are easily fooled”, which means women are not just “men with boobs”, and that is Bad Think that must be stamped out. Hence the years of poorly done “studies”, often with no real data, to “prove” that men benefit from divorce.
Therefore 50-something catladies who never get calls from their children is All Men’s Fault!
I know I shouldn’t but I scan HuffPo sometimes just to see how insane they’re getting. It can be somewhat incredible to see how many of their myriad articles are about identity-based grievances. Anyway, yesterday was Father’s Day and there was an emphatic absence of any article, opinion piece, photo essay etc about fathers. Just nothing about it even though they always tailor their page about the current holiday/monthly theme. Today is yet another gay “pride” day so there are handfuls of apt articles etc. Father’s Day…zilch. The hostility is so blatant. Couldn’t they even find a gay dad to write a puff piece about? Not even that. The left HATES fathers. Know this and act accordingly
Sorry, I meant to label that previous post as “off-topic”
It should be obvious to all that the left-right narrative is just a means of control; a game played in a stadium while the owners look on and count their money.
For you, the reader, there’s only one way to play: don’t go into that stadium, don’t watch it on cable, and live your life differently.
That means being a nationalist, a Christian Nationalist. It means being married, having kids, and being as economically smart as you can. It means having a life purpose beyond hedonism. It means planning and training your children. It means planning for generational knowledge and property transfer. It means that you create a home and connection in a community, and maximum effort to remain there.
This does not work out for everyone. Life is a normal distribution. Your effort should be aimed at avoiding skew and not be on the left side of the distribution. If it does not work out it’s not the fault of God, marriage, children, etc., but people. That includes you.
Anyone who is not actively practicing what they preach, or are doublespeaking to avoid having to do so, can be disregarded, in religion or politics. Turn from the “conservative” path and walk a different road.
@Dalrock
Vox Day is dunking on MGTOW and proclaiming fatherhood as the reason for a man’s existence: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2019/06/the-purpose-of-man.html?m=1
Thoughts? I’m sympathetic to his ends, but I think western civilization in the USA is pretty much shot, and raising kids at this point might be just giving globohomo more grist for the bloody mill.
RedPillLatecomer:
Here’s an idea for the snobby bride who doesn’t want a woman with a tat sleeve and blue hair to show up in pics at her wedding:
DON’T INVITE HER. THEN SHE WON’T EVEN BE THERE.
vfm7916:
I’m seeing that VD is still on his “single men and MGTOWs are pussies and cowards” kick.
Men do not have a duty to “western civilization” to get married to worthless women and have children with said women. Men do not have a duty to reproduce for the specific purpose of saving a society that does not have their backs.
If society wants men to marry and have kids, then society needs to give men some assurances that, at the very least, it will not actively work to destroy his marriage and steal/murder his children.
DON’T INVITE HER. THEN SHE WON’T EVEN BE THERE.
It is even easier. Don’t have her be a bridesmaid. She can be a guest but not a bridesmaid.
Done.
The poor groom is in for trouble. The control-freak nature of the bride, PLUS the fact that one of her best friends is a bluehaired tattooed freak bodes ill for his future.
thedeti,
I’m seeing that VD is still on his “single men and MGTOWs are pussies and cowards” kick.
Race trashionalists are among the biggest useful idiots for feminists.
For one thing, many such trashionalists actually say that paternity fraud is OK as long as it produces a white baby. One such idiot came over here once. They don’t value fatherhood at all, and are no friend of the men of the very race they purport to advocate for.
Anon:
She’s not in the wedding party. She’s just invited as a guest.
This is a stupid moronic stuck up bridezilla telling an invited guest how to groom/dress/present herself at her wedding. This is the height of rudeness and gracelessness, and clearly shows the entitled, shitty nature of some women today.
It is just absolutely RIDICULOUS to tell an invited guest to not show their tats or change their hair colors. Sheesh. If you don’t want them at your wedding because you don’t like how they look or you don’t want them ruining the wedding pictures, then DON’T INVITE THEM.
Well, that Heritage video does make good points, like kids in married households do better and that the govt encourages single-motherhood with massive welfare rewards.
But she failed to address THE #1 reason why marriage rates are declining not just in America, but all over the Western world: the divorce-rape crisis created by feminist-centered legislation and all-powerful courts that far exceeded their power and authority with zero oversight and zero accountability.
This is not to minimize the low availability of quality women of marriageable/breeding age in our society. That is a very serious issue, I know because I see this more than most Americans do, since I travel abroad quite often lately and have for years for work. I see the situation with outsider’s eyes, and it is just as bad as people here seem to understand it to be.
But lack of quality women simply pales in comparison to the divorce-rape scam that is run by predatory women and is enforced with harsh and unforgiving brutality by our “family” courts. Until that issue is resolved with legislation to reign in divorce-rape abuse and judges that are totally out of control, marriage rates are gonna continue to drop, no matter how many videos and pleas we get from the media/politicians. No amount of please, not even from churches, will convince Red Pilled men or any men aware of the legal situation regarding marriage to get married. It is not gonna happen for most guys today. Men look at cost-benefit, and the cost outweighs any un-seen “benefit to society” too greatly.
I often cite the 2017 study that showed that 70% unmarried rate for men ages 20-34 in America. But when you consider what a legal dangers of marriage in America okay, it is a real miracle 30% of guys are willing to marry today. Sometimes I wonder if these men are simply blissfully ignorant of the legal and financial danger to them or take the risk anyway. I recently told a friend of mine of the 70% unmarried rate statistic and my buddy said “wow, what the hell is wrong with the other 30% of guys? Must be douches”.
We all know that, sadly, he has a point. And we al know our country is disintegrating because of that, decades of “free trade” policies that benefit foreign countries at our expense, and out of control immigration policies. And when you think about all that + the risks of marriage today, it is, once again, a real miracle that 30% of guys are still getting married, for better or worse.
thedeti,
She’s not in the wedding party. She’s just invited as a guest.
You are right. In that case, the bride’s request is excessive.
It takes a power-mad bridezilla to achieve the impossible – make people sympathetic with a bluehaired tattooed feminist.
But she failed to address THE #1 reason why marriage rates are declining not just in America, but all over the Western world: the divorce-rape crisis created by feminist-centered legislation and all-powerful courts that far exceeded their power and authority with zero oversight and zero accountability.
I don’t think that’s true. From what I’ve seen, there are two reasons marriage rates are declining. The first is women delaying marriage and putting it off as long as they can. One result of this phenomenon is a marked increase in the number of never married women. More and more women are getting to 40 as never marrieds, and if they get to that age as never marrieds the odds are that marriage is out of the question for them.
The second is remarriage rates are cratering across the board. That is, fewer and fewer people are remarrying after a marriage ends by divorce or, less commonly, death of one spouse.
And even if women are getting to 40 as never marrieds, and then marrying after that, the odds of them having a good marriage are lower. They likely won’t have kids, so they have very little incentive to stay together and actually make it work. A first marriage at or after 40 seems to me to be likely to end, or at least, to be plagued with difficulty and strife.
RPL
Well, that Heritage video does make good points, like kids in married households do better and that the govt encourages single-motherhood with massive welfare rewards.
Is this news to you, or anyone else? This vid is a lot like the thumb-suckers from Prager U – handwringing, man-blaming but zero actionable suggestions. Unless one considers “Send us moar money!” to be anything useful.
The conservative orgs haven’t learned anything, their content and advice is straight out of 1993, as if nothing has changed since Bill Clinton was first elected. They’re “fighting the last war” from the previous century and losing. In fact, they’ve been losing for years while teaching men to “ManUP” so they, too, can learn to lose.
Funding losers is a waste of money and time. Paying attention to them beyond mocking their pretentious money-grubbing? Ditto.
This bridezilla thing reminds me of the woman who demanded that her wedding guests all give her $500 or $1000 each as a “gift” and after some of her friends declined, she freaked out demanding that her friends pay for the privilege of attending her wedding and how dare they be so MEAN to her.
@Deti
One of the side effects of riding the carousel is poor relationship skills. When the “solution” to a relationship conflict is a breakup, and that “solution” is used multiple times, the neural pathways get reinforced repeatedly. That means the girl who marries at 29.99 is less likely to be able to resist certain temptations, and as for those pushing 40…
@Emperor Constantine
Re fathers being richer after divorce
Depending on how the question is worded, both the feminist and the rational person could be correct.
Hypothetical question: Are men better off, financially, within 2 years of the divorce.
In this case:
a) Women unfortunately have been able to steal at least half the man’s assets, plus likely get continuing payments, far about what is needed for the children that had been his, before being stolen by the state and given to the mother. Thus, they SHOULD be richer, if all else were equal.
b) This women are not equal to men, or the same, they make different decisions. Many women squander resources, even when they are not being conned (by someone else). Thus, even though the woman has more resources coming into her budget than the man, the woman has less in the bank and hard assets. So the man is better off; but this is due to a willingness to squander less, and despite being forced to give massive resources to the ex-wife.
RPC:
Men are not getting married because women won’t date them, have sex with them, or marry them.
Men can’t get married unless they can date them seriously. Men can’t get date women unless they can attract them. And most women just aren’t attracted in any way, shape or form to most women. Most women don’t want anything at all to do with most men. Don’t want even to breathe the same air as most men, let alone date, have sex with, or marry them.
And these aren’t all horrible men. These aren’t all cheetos-stained, Mountain Dew-swilling, video game addicted basement dwellers. These are college educated or trade-trained guys with jobs and money and cars and places of their own. And they can’t get anything, nothing at all.
And most women just aren’t attracted in any way, shape or form to most women.
SHOULD BE
And most women just aren’t attracted in any way, shape or form to most men.
TheDeti: Oh, I agree, women are delaying marriage until 30-40s and beyond and the un-married men and un-married women ratio is around the same, since men-women marriages are the most common (despite the media trying to tell us that ‘gay marriage’ seems to be all there is going on now).
Now, I disagree that men are not starting to understand the legal and financial threats to marriage. There are simply too many men, too many dads, too many uncles, too may friends that have gone through the divorce hell. The word is out and will continue to grow in awareness. And it is not only Red Pilled guys getting this; this is all ver the Internet now, with MGTOW, TV shows, court cases being televised, crazy TV shows like “Divorce Court” and so forth. Culturally, marriage makes less sense in atomized America, so it is literally an all out awareness campaign, which is a good thing. Full disclosure is always a good thing IMHO.
One of my clients is an Aussie “mate” and he was asking me about marriage in US and he was telling me th young guys in his hometown in Australia were all talking about how dangerous it is to marry there and all that. Comparing legal systems, Aus is a fair system compared to our systemic divorce-rape, men-grinding machine. Our family courts operate like Soviet courts and failure to comply with even the most sadistic whims of an un-elected family court judge guarantees a trip to a local Gulag/debter’s jail for however long the judge feels like it. There is zero oversight, almost no chance of appeal, and no restrictions on American family court judges. They are the law. They make up the law as they go. They are emperors in black robes.
It is not that women after 40 cannot have kids. They can and they do have healthy children all the time, I see this all the time in my workplace and travels. This has become “normal” lately, with women’s delaying marriage to be corporate slaves and self-indulgent little princesses, indulging themselves with carrousel rides, alcohol, and prescription pills. .
Also, keep in mind that in my own estimate, many women would probably be more likely to frivolously divorce after the man has helped her get the kids after they start K-12. That is when they really will have no incentive to stay around and can use the kids as a financial-sucking device against the man in court.
The whole thing is a mess. Until we at least make the laws fair and equitable for men, any rational man would stay away from marriage. That is simple incentives and reason at work here. But yes, Demi, this is a combination of many bad factors coming into play all at once to destroy marriage and families as institutions of a stable, healthy,and happy society.
thedeti,
This bridezilla thing reminds me of the woman who demanded that her wedding guests all give .
The bridezilla wants to gloat that she is getting married, and how the bluehaired tattooed feminist turned to that ideology out of failure to secure a man. All of this is just a power-trip built around a need to rub her ‘success’ in the face of the woman who could not marry and became a feminist (or vice-versa).
It is not about the look for the wedding pics. It is about torturing her friend with her ‘success’. That is why she invited her in the first place, rather than merely exclude the aesthetically incompatible through a non-invite.
The resource misallocation towards women that America has engineered is truly a sight to behold.
“thedeti says:
June 17, 2019 at 3:23 pm
Anon:
…It is just absolutely RIDICULOUS to tell an invited guest to not show their tats or change their hair colors. Sheesh. If you don’t want them at your wedding because you don’t like how they look or you don’t want them ruining the wedding pictures, then DON’T INVITE THEM.
“But but but…It’s MY DAY! And my DRAMA!”
Anon, I disagree. The bridezilla might be gloating about her “success”, but that’s not the prime motivation. In my view, bridezillas like this are simply being selfish. It’s not so much a power play as it is extreme self-centeredness. Everything must be “perfect” for “her day”. It’s thoughtlessness, extreme self-absorption, and rudeness. It’s “Everything must be all about ME ME ME, all the time, at all times.”
If I were miss Blue Haired Tat Lady, I would simply decline the invitation in as graceful a manner as I could. “Thank you for your invitation; I regret to inform you that I must decline your invitation as I will be unable to attend your nuptials.”
In divorce, the man is most immediately crushed by the law. He is hurled into poverty.
But women tend to lose their ill-gotten resources over time. They mismanage it, or spend it on savvy men who make women pay.
One of the amazing incidents that happen in the modern age is the Nigerian Romance Scam :
https://www.thecut.com/2019/04/i-lost-a-million-dollars-in-an-online-dating-scam.html
In 2018, $143M was scammed. Note that that is just what was reported.
The article specifically uses a widow for maximum sympathy, but the vast majority of people scammed are women with ill-gotten cash and prizes from divorce.
The Deti: I have had a difference experience then you have, because my issue now that I am 37 is that most American women I date (ages 25-33) want to move towards meeting my family or friend-mingling or “the next step” in the relationship more quickly than I want to. I am honest with them, however and do not mislead them on purpose. But It has become much harder for me, as a man, to attach myself to these women anymore. Frankly, many days, I do not even feel like approaching a woman I see somewhere because frankly, it is a lot of work and time, and most women I meet today are just not worth the energy on my part.
I have found most men that never married by age 30 will most likely never marry and not because they cannot attract women; no, they will not marry because they do not want to. I know a couple guys who are successful, one is decent and the other is good-looking 7 and 8.5 men both pulling easily 100k+, both early 30s, much younger than me, not Christian and they go clubbing, tons of time on Tinder/grinder/social media. They go to bars and game women straight-up and never ever want to “go forward” in their relationships at all and I have seen them run Game and they do a good job. They do not want to even entertain the notion of a relationship. The women they Game seem to get that and are OK with it and they are anywhere In their age range age range. These guys deplore the thought of waking up with a woman inside their bathroom. It is a selfish point of view that even I cringe at.
I can say I am in a similar situation as these guy are, but in my case, women seem to see me as “marriage material” and want to push ahead in the relationship with “the next steps”. The issue is that after 30, I seem to have become much less likely to be “in love” with a woman as I did in my early 20s. I look at myself then and just kinda laugh at my younger self. I was a muscled-out, car-racing cocky boy who wanted and sought out women for marriage and all that. I admit, I was a kind of a romantic young man, someone who even white-knighted once in a while, who treated women well and actually cared.
Today, I see life much differently. I once wanted to have kids, but today, I look back and question that given how fast declining our country (USA) truly is, if that is even a good idea or not. I always saw myself as a dad and husband. But when I look around America today, we are living on borrowed time. Trump has simply stopped the sharp decline fo the last 20 years and gave us, as a country, a chance to get our act together. But he is 1 man, one man opposed by an entire system of corrupt bureaucrats who exploit our country for their own gains.
Our time as a Superpower is waning as we spend more and more resources feeding, sheltering, educating illiterates, and becoming the welfare center and dumping ground for the entire planet. When you consider 3 million NEWLY arrived illegals have entered the country and almost 100% of them are on a welfare program and pushing their kids into overturned public schools and depressing low-middle class wages further, it is hard for me to justify even wanting a kid anymore.
Think about the number 3 million. 3,000,000. That is a brand new city bigger than Orlando and Tampa combined. Bigger than Colorado and Wyoming companies. Bigger than most American cities. That huge number of poor, violent, un-educated, and un-skilled people who have no intention of becoming Americans just entered the country since 2018. They will likely never be deported and will live forever on welfare, while committing crimes and ripping off our govt services so they can have “extra ones” to send abroad, until they can afford to bring the rest of their relative into the US. Even leftists admit, most immigrants today do not contribute $1 net Dollar in profit until the 3rd generation of these immigrants come along. Most will not become fluent in English until 3rd generation and will continue to main their culture, language, and foreign allegiance for life. Think about just the last 2 years’ worth of illegals entering the country will do electorally, socially, and financially. That is 3 million illegals on top of the 1.2 million legally immigrating = another million with “work visas”. All that in a country pushing $22 Trillion in govt debt, that is not even counting student loan debt, and personal debt. It is insurmountable.
Any child or children I have will grow up in a country that is hyper-polarized, divided in every possible way, distrustful, and much, much poorer. A once great nation sacrificed at the alter of the diversity god, for the sake of cheap labor to short-sighted business-minded politicians and their lobbies and for the increasing power for leftist politicians.
I have to tell you, diversity is not only America’s greatest weakness, it will be its downfall for sure. No country in the world can absorb this many poor, unskilled people at taxpayer expense when a country is already stressed financially and socially.
Flying into Newark, NJ on way back from Ukraine (plane was diverted there) was shocking and horrifying to me. Newark is the California of the East Coast. Obesity was endemic, and “diversity” ensured the ugliest people (men and women) I have seen in a really long while and coming from Ukraine, this becomes even more obvious and even more blatant. It was quite an eye opener to fly into Jersey and not back to the heart of the country. What a depressing place Newark is and no wonder, Corey Boogers was the mayor there and now is running for Prez. The reason they have such restrictive gun laws is because these people would just off themselves by the tens of thousands if they could do it efficiently because sweet mother of God, that place is a rathole of ugly people, poverty, and decline. It truly is the California of the East.
Anyway, when I think about the type of people I saw in Newark makes even this “marriage crisis” seem like a tiny problem in comparison. Clearly, much more homogenous and coherent countries like Russia and China where common culture, language, and low immigration give them a much better chnace at a good future than our kids will have here in the USA, and certainly infinitely better than anyone will have in Western Europe, truly a dying place.
We still have a small chance to save the USA, it is small chance, but it still there. Compare it to Western Europe, we are looking great. But when you see truly culturally homogenous countries at work, even poor ones like Ukraine, and you can see these guys will be around long after America becomes a 3rd world country all the way.
RPL
It is not that women after 40 cannot have kids. They can and they do have healthy children all the time, I see this all the time in my workplace and travels.
Sure, and it’s not that people can’t go into a casino and win some money. But the odds in both cases are not positive. Even with in-vitro, a woman over 40 has pushed way past her best baby-birth years. Lots and lots of implications for health of all concerned.
thedeti
The bridezilla might be gloating about her “success”, but that’s not the prime motivation. In my view, bridezillas like this are simply being selfish. It’s not so much a power play as it is extreme self-centeredness.
This is not an either-or proposition.
Again, note what is said about the groom…
thedeti
If I were miss Blue Haired Tat Lady, I would simply decline the invitation in as graceful a manner as I could.
But you aren’t a blue haired woman with tats, so your rationality has nothing to do with the situation, does it?
I have to say that although I do not comment at VD’s blog (which i do read) had I done so I would have taken issue with him over his dismissal of MgTOWs (and promptly been banned with the dreaded Gamma tag). Sure we want to save western civilisation but first one must save oneself. The Marine who had been stripped of his family and assets should not be encouraged to remarry as if he has a duty to do so and damn the consequences.
@Opus
Well, I don’t comment on his blog either, but if you’re interested, he’s got a “darkstream” in about an hour called “men going evil’s way”, which I’m guessing is going to be a bit of making mgtow men out to be evil:
I’m not mgtow personally. I can’t afford marriage. But I understand that that isn’t an excuse to VD. 😛
@Opus, @Eric
As women’s behavior gets worse, we can expect more “manUP” rants from cultural and relgious AMOG’s. There will be no actionable or useful advice in these rants, just recycled TradCon guilt-tripping. Like PragerU / Heritage / Focus on the Family / etc. manblaming, but using different vocabulary. It’s interesting that Day has such huge blind spots regarding culture and women’s nature, one would expect a super duper high intelligence to know better…
I’d quote something from Deep Strength’s book at this point – something useful that does not denigrate other men – but I was careless on travel and my Kindle is probably toast. I really should buy a hard copy of his book, both for reference and so that I can try to get some of the churchgoing men I know to read it.
At this point in time a young man contemplating marriage would do well to read all of Rollo’s books as well as Deep Strength’s, plus the relevant essays here on marriage, while totally ignoring all the AMOG “manUP! Marry that slut!” hot air.
Never going to be your beast of burden leftardesses and tradconrinotardesses. Go get more cats to fill the void you created in the voting booth.
@thedeti, @Opus
No. Both of you make nearly the same error. I do not ever speak of “Society”. To say “we must fix society first” is the same do-nothing blather cuckservatives have pumped out for decades, and it’s the same escapism some MGTOWs, libertarians, et cetera use to avoid action.
The same may be said of the “the individual must save themselves first!” crowd, which again includes some MGTOWs, TRP’ers and manosphere people. In “Saving” themselves they condemn themselves to an existence with no purpose other than hedonism, no genetic, property, or philosophical legacy. In short, you’re dust. You’ll return to dust, with nothing to show but wasted life without purpose.
Believers in either extreme that use those poles as arguments against marriage and family are One Tael Men.
As I said on the post above, life is a Normal Distribution. I’m not going to explain that further, because if you don’t have basic stats understanding there’s nothing more to be explained.
The SDL’s response is correct.
vfm7916
The same may be said of the “the individual must save themselves first!” crowd, which again includes some MGTOWs, TRP’ers and manosphere people.
That’s not painting with a broad brush, that’s painting with a sprayer. It’s foolish. Calm down.
As part of the safety briefing on any airliner, we are told “In case of a loss of cabin pressure, put the oxygen mask on yourself first then assist anyone who needs it”. That’s what “save yourself first” means, and it is the opposite of “ManUP and marry a slut!” that’s being pushed on men from all directions today.
A man shouldn’t even think about marrying until he’s secure in his own frame of reference. Religious men should be secure in their own faith, and relationship to God, before marriage.
Again I point to Deep Strength’s book, which for a churchgoing man is light years ahead of any advice Vox Day has ever offered on any site.
As I said on the post above, life is a Normal Distribution.
Except when it isn’t. Some life-distributions are binary, some are multimode. You should already know this.
The SDL’s response is correct.
Nah. It’s the same old tradcon junk. I wonder why he has such an emotional involvement in that AMOG’ing?
The good Father’s day scolding you love to talk about, Dalrock.
Beside that, I phoned my Dad yesterday, and , during the discussion, I reminded him of a joke he loved to tell when I was a kid. I hadn’t heard him laugh that hard in years!
* Forgot to add the link:
http://www.kake.com/story/40660437/topeka-police-apologize-for-hurtful-fathers-day-tweet?fbclid=IwAR1-KRreX8L65wAlOL8kzCMBWYYvQJYfU6ygDPLhfmyH8ZyftLkAaMEqFWE#.XQgVK9w39YA.facebook
@Anonymous Reader
“It’s the same old tradcon junk.”
Now who’s painting with a sprayer? Admittedly I did like painting my house. Two coats.
“That’s what “save yourself first” means, and it is the opposite of “ManUP and marry a slut!” that’s being pushed on men from all directions today. ”
It’s so effective that men are being saved from ever marrying or having a family. TRP does quite the job of this, as do many on this board. The context is @opus’s quote of:
“Sure we want to save western civilisation but first one must save oneself. The Marine who had been stripped of his family and assets should not be encouraged to remarry as if he has a duty to do so and damn the consequences.”
The example is held in the SDL’s OP as a reason to NEVER marry, not build one’s frame first. MGTOW is not about developing yourself to have a strong marriage and family.
“A man shouldn’t even think about marrying until he’s secure in his own frame of reference.”
Are MGTOWs?
Are Gamma’s?
Is any man who fears to marry because of what a woman might do?
Heck, most of TRP consists of “Never Marry!”, as do most MGTOW and redpillers.
None of them are secure.
However, look at Archwinger, Rollo, Dalrock, Vox, etc. All married. Who is the example to follow?
You can have a SmartBoy award for your stats knowledge, but Life is a Normal Distribution.
“It’s the same old tradcon junk.”
Now who’s painting with a sprayer?
I read the article, it’s just Marc Driscoll / Prager U with different vocabulary. The usual TradCon stuff with nothing actionable. Ironically, there is something actionable in the comments, from Avalanche – a woman offered more useful advice than Vox Day or any of the other commenters….who offered up such gems as “find a quality woman” and “be sure she’s Christian”. I don’t have a high opinion of Eggerich, but the other two books she suggested aren’t horrible.
Irony: in the article about the housing market, Vox Day correctly identifies the huge changes that have occurred since the 1990’s that lead Boomers and X’rs to say stupid stuff to younger people like “Just work for a summer and save the down payment, that’s what I did, hurr durr!” but he commits the exact same error with regard to marriage…just as all the other TradCons do.
Conclusion: His essay is the same old tradcon junk with a slightly different vocabulary.
Me:
“That’s what “save yourself first” means, and it is the opposite of “ManUP and marry a slut!” that’s being pushed on men from all directions today. ”
It’s so effective that men are being saved from ever marrying or having a family.
Question: what is average age of a US woman at her first marriage? Do you know? Can you find a website that has that information?
Question:
How is this All Men’s Fault?
TRP does quite the job of this, as do many on this board.
Nonsense. You are deliberately conflating the reality of women, i.e. The Glasses / Red Pill with MGTOW. That’s ignorance at best, lying at worst. I don’t like liars, by the way.
The context is @opus’s quote of:
“Sure we want to save western civilisation but first one must save oneself. The Marine who had been stripped of his family and assets should not be encouraged to remarry as if he has a duty to do so and damn the consequences.”
Note: I am not now, nor have I ever been, Opus. Bear this in mind in the future.
The example is held in the SDL’s OP as a reason to NEVER marry, not build one’s frame first. MGTOW is not about developing yourself to have a strong marriage and family.
MGTOW is often a phase that men go through, typically in the anger phase. Another term for it is “monk mode”. Some men get stuck in depression, some stuck in anger, some stuck in bargaining. None of it is good. The Kubler-Ross process isn’t anything to desire.
But it happens. I’ve seen it happen to men who are being frivorced. What’s your point?
The blackpillling MGTOW’s are arguably stuck in despair, and are an annoyance. There’s a couple over at Rollo’s right now in comments, being stupid, but so what?
Put your spray gun away, and learn to see what’s in front of you.
“A man shouldn’t even think about marrying until he’s secure in his own frame of reference.”
Are MGTOWs?
Some are, some aren’t. MGTOW as a term has devolved over the last 10 to 20 years, to be sure. I can only know what men are doing by their actions and words, but if you have the power of a god to read men’s minds, that is testable. Oh, yes, it is very testable.
You want to claim that power to read minds? I’m your huckleberry…
Is any man who fears to marry because of what a woman might do?
Some are, some are not. A lot of younger men don’t really have the knowledge to evaluate the risk, their fear is based on ignorance. Urging them to do stupid stuff is not the way to solve the problem, unless one is an AMOG who gets dopamine hits from denigrating other men.
Want a better way? Teach men facts about women, and how to manage / lead them.
Heck, most of TRP consists of “Never Marry!”,
That is bullshit.
Fact: Rollo Tomassi has three books full of Red Pill, and none of it is “never marry”.
Fact: This site has Red Pill / The Glasses knowledge on how to interview a prospective wife.
Fact: Deep Strength’s book contains information about women that is Red Pill, although couched in language from the Christian Bible.
Mister, either you are ignorant or lying. Which is it?
as do most MGTOW and redpillers.
Die hard MIGTOW are black pilling. They are not redpilling.
However, look at Archwinger, Rollo, Dalrock, Vox, etc. All married. Who is the example to follow?
Dalrock coined the term “The Glasses”. Rollo has saved more men than you or anyone else at Vox Day’s site. Again, are you lying or ignorant?
I don’t like liars.
You can have a SmartBoy award for your stats knowledge, but Life is a Normal Distribution.
Assuming you are married and have at least one child, what is the probability distribution of pregnancy in your wife? Is there a Gaussian from “not pregnant” to “50% pregnant” to “Pregnant”? Or is it a binary distribution consisting of “Pregnant” or “Not Pregnant”?
If you are as intelligent as you pretend to be, you’ll either back up your assertions with facts, or revise your remarks.
PS: I really don’t like liars.
John James R: yesterday was Father’s Day and there was an emphatic absence of any article, opinion piece, photo essay etc about fathers. Just nothing about it even though they always tailor their page about the current holiday/monthly theme. Today is yet another gay “pride” day so there are handfuls of apt articles etc. Father’s Day…zilch
I heard a “news story” on the radio about how difficult Father’s Day can be for trannies.
A woman interviewed a Kentucky tranny, someone born a man, who became a father, then decided he was a woman at age 56. He was asked whether he was a father, a mother, what?
This “transwoman” said he was a father. He added, “I’ve learned that Father’s Day isn’t about fathers. It’s about family. It’s about love.”
The interviewer asked, “Do we need to broaden our conception of how we define ‘fathers’ ?” Etc.
So Father’s Day is now yet another chance for the media to celebrate LGBT Pride.
@vfm7916: Maybe I’m late to the discussion here but are you actually asserting that Paul the apostle’s entire existence is as worthless as dust because he didn’t impregnate a female?
Here’s something better re: Father’s Day
I think that Dalrocks prediction that among the MC abs UMC there will be a slight down turn in the total debasement and obliteration of fatherhood as a positive is starting.
It’s only an N of one, so I’ll only present this as anecdotal.
On our shared FB page, which includes pretty much the type of people Mychael and I associate with there was about a 10:1 ratio of memes and other posts IN FAVOR of honoring dads as a finite goal of the meme.
No hidden agenda. No nods to single moms who fill “both” roles.
It was weird. It was an abrupt change from years past.
I even saw one that read “have a seat, single moms. Father’s Day isn’t mother’s day part two.”
I really enjoy much of what VoxDay writes, but he is completely oblivious where he is really not thinking something through.
I married the Christian wife (who was active in church, etc.) and went and adopted since no kids were coming otherwise. Both ended up with nothing for me in the long run though both my kids (who split for their birth family when they could) and my exwife had a better life that they could.
I do repeatedly want to know “why” from God today, not that knowing why would completely help. I built for the future and ended up with nothing. I didn’t have my “wild years” and stayed faithful to Him and ended up with nothing (not even any direct family or close cousins) now. People who spout that stuff need to think things through a bit more and realize that just telling a man to have a good attitude and lift weights is not enough.
I would love for them to tell me how to make friends and connections, but they will be just as bad as most church members I have talked about on the issue who do nothing to help the problem. They only know how to call others names.
I am not going to start proclaiming the religion of MGTOW, but it sure as heck is harder than anyone not facing it realizes.
‘…because you have listened to the voice of the woman…’ Genesis 3:17.
I encourage all men to discard the voice of the woman, in every environment and situation that you can, even to the point of awkwardness.
By analogy, to unroll a paper that has been rolled up for a long time, to lay it flat, you cannot just unroll it; it immediately pops back to its habitual position. You must go out of your way to rolled it tightly in the other direction, to break the habit of it being curled up; you must exaggerate the action [an equal and opposite action] for a noticeable period for it to relax to a natural state.
This is the way it will be with the proper role of men and women: it will be highly exaggerated and incredibly awkward for a great period …to get women to talk about 90% less.
Start now by not listening to or supporting the delivery of information by women …the voice of the woman.
@BillyS
I am a fool, and not worthy to be heard by any man.
That out of the way, I will say this:
My dad married an abusive woman, who was married before, was immoral, and whose conversion to Christianity seems to have been in vain, though I hope not.
She thought she could not have children, so they adopted me, and then she had two daughters.
Then she abused us all, physically, emotionally, and lost the house my dad built, which we (my dad, I, and my 2 sisters) all fled from to get away from her.
What I did was this: I opposed my adopted mother to her face, because she disrespected my father. I told my father we would lose everything, because of her spending habits. I was right. We did. No one listened to me until it was too late. I tried from age 13 until I was 21 to set things right. Nothing worked.
I once had to physically restrain my mom from beating my sister, and I had to threaten her again to stop her from hitting my sister when I was not there.
One of my sisters is still single, and seems to believe that the world should accommodate her.
One of my sisters married, had four kids, and now denies her husband sex. I know because I am accountable with him to avoid porn and masturbation.
I have remained single. I tried to lift up my dad, and restore his business. I did, and he then tried to build a coffee shop, employed only women, who despoiled him. Now I am $7000 in debt, and have $20,000 of his debt hanging over me.
Here is what I say: All of this is my fault. I should have found a way to redeem it. Perhaps I would have, if I were more virtuous, if I were more righteous. I did as I thought was right, and I failed.
I am a Christian, and trying to be catholic, but even here, I despair often, every minute, of salvation.
To be a man is to take responsibility. It is to assume the life that is not yours. It is to bear up, it is to die. There is nothing for us in existence, except to try, to fail, to place faith in God and despair of this life. We are men. Let us nail ourselves to the cross each day, and forge on.
@Eric
“Vox Day is dunking on MGTOW and proclaiming fatherhood as the reason for a man’s existence: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2019/06/the-purpose-of-man.html?m=1
Thoughts?”
The whole thread seems to be a 100% equivalent of old Boomers telling those youngsters to stop being lazy and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
I am so tired of the tradcon bullshit. MGTOW is about finding your own path, it is about removing yourself from the dangers of marriage and cohabitation. These tradcucks can go pound sand. Voxday can go save the world, I no longer care to. Let it burn.
Telling men to get married and have families is like telling them to walk through a minefield, you can trick some of the men but there are others that see through your bull and will walk away.
This is your society now. You fix it, don’t demand others do it for you.
Shaming no longer works. It’s plain as day to see that society isn’t worth saving. Laying down your life and taking responsibility of those not under your authority is stupid. Their entire ploy is a joke. You have no authority and therefore, no responsibility. Society needs to burn, it needs to be reset.
Ted Beale (AKA, “Vox Day”) claims MGTOWs are “lazy, useless and wicked”, “zombies who are trying to infect young men with their wicked ideology.”
Pretty rough, but par for the course for him.
Ted also claims he’s not trying to shame MGTOWs, because they’re “useless”, so shaming them would be pointless. He claims to be trying to prevent other young men from “becoming infected with their ideology.”
I recommend readers listen to Ted’s arguments, or read them, and engage his actual arguments, not straw men, whether the reader agrees or disagrees with him. I also recommend that approach for all arguments.
By the way, I’m a Central American immigrant to the USA, and I adopted five kids from Ethiopia, so consider those facts before thinking I’m cheer leading for him.
feminishater: be a man, get married
VoxDay can go pound sand. The very title of the video is misleading. If I go my way, that’s evil. I have to go the way he wants me to. VoxDay is a piece of shit, he can go and die on his own hill.
If all they can do is throw bullshit. I will disregard everything he says in the dustbin. If they’re so wonderful, let us see them bring forth their desired plans. If not, they’re full of shit.
Thanks Nick. I mean, here I was almost utterly Black Pilled until Ted Peel and TradCon U came along to set me straight. I shall be getting married tomorrow and pumping out 10 kids at least to save the race. I must take responsibility for all the whores and single moms, for that is the essence of a man. Please send all their bills to myarse@fuckyou.com
Best Wishes
FH
Beale made a glancing reference to reducing risk, but didn’t flesh it out. I think that’s what’s lacking. Everything in life involves risk. We all evaluate risk, reduce some, mitigate others, and accept others.
Except in marriage.
There’s very little honest discussion on what the risks are, and how to reduce, and/or mitigate them, and which risks can’t be reduced and/or mitigated, and simply must be accepted, or not.
Oscar,
Of course, the reason(s) the risks are never discussed are numerous and here are just a few.
1. I suspect that in most cases, if you are already married and you bring them up with your wife, you will have the same result I did (at first). “You think I am like that? You think I am going to leave you for no good reason and take all your stuff?” (commence crying, storming off, calling her friends and telling them what a monster you are).
2. If you are a father or other mature, masculine figure in some young mans life and talk to him about the risks, you will have better luck doing so outside the earshot of any woman at all. (Or outside the earshot of man who you don’t know for sure is totally red-pilled). But even then, depending on his life long conditioning, he may try to obfuscate the discussion by focusing on how “different she is.”
…and many more.
But even if you can get past all that, I think the real meat in the mix is the aggregate risk across civilization. Because when you have that conversation with some dude, you are helping to mitigate the risk for himself, personally. And only if he chooses to employ any mitigating tactics. As a man, he has a natural ability to understand that no matter how careful he is, the risk is still present. That’s what men do.
No, the bigger problem is not “AWALT,” because we know that these drives are innate among the sexes and probably have not changed much over thousands of years of history. It continues to be the fact that there is absolutely no reverence for the institution itself, and one sex has had the external guardrails completely removed. No older women exhorting them to stay and work it out. No clergy holding excommunication/disfellowship over the head of the one in the wrong. No shame in leaving “for love.” No disincentives in the court/legal system. No conceptualization of marriage as anything other than something you do when you “love” each other. (And most men think this too).
And many have pointed out before, those guardrails are not coming back Not in our lifetimes. Not without a hard reset.
So, as I have pointed many times before–the success of any particular marriage is nearly 100% dependent on how the wife in that marriage feels about her husband at any given time.
People sometimes are tempted to believe that when I write these things “well, you’re just bitter because you are divorced.”
Indeed, divorce against your will can be an embittering thing. Especially when you acknowledged your imperfections, but can demonstrate that you didn’t do any of the really bad stuff (no cheating, no heavy drinking, no physical violence).
What men need to know is that playing by those rules has absolutely zero effect on your risk for losing everything.
And when other men of the white knight/blue pill variety smugly turn up their noses as if you had it coming, it is the closest I ever come to socking someone in the mouth as a knee jerk reaction.
@ Scott
I need to clarify. I don’t intend to have this conversation with “some dude”, because “some dude” isn’t my responsibility, nor is he under my authority. I have no business telling “some dude” what he should do.
I’m raising four boys. I need to have this conversation with them. To some extent, I have already with my oldest son, but as you’ve pointed out before, we’re all making this up as we go along, because we were taught incorrectly, and the old rules don’t seem to apply anyway. So, I get the feeling that I need help teaching my boys how to recognize, analyze, reduce, and mitigate the risks involved in starting a family. That’s what I’m looking for.
Agreed. So, until that hard reset happens, how do we help our boys find the kind of girls who are least likely to detonate their marriages? Or, even better, the kind of girls who are most likely to actually put the effort into building a happy marriage.
So, as I have pointed many times before–the success of any particular marriage is nearly 100% dependent on how the wife in that marriage feels about her husband at any given time.
There’s your real “dread”. The anchor point of modern religious philosophy, which is not to be confused with anything written or said by the Apostles and early church fathers.
Vox reminds me of those married men – middle aged and envious and horny- who used to say to me, ‘why Opus there are so many hot women out there I can’t understand why you aren’t sleeping with a different one every night’. In other words delusional. Vox is married and seemingly to an attractive woman who thinks that he is the dog’s bollocks, at least that is the impression one gets and Vox is very keen to explain just how much more intelligent than you he is so who can doubt it. Vox’s advice reminds me a little of those skits the late Pater Cook and Dudley Moore used to make about the Great War and what a glorious thing it must be to attack a machine gun post with only a bayonnetted rifle and what a pity they are unable to join in the fun so as to make a pointless gesture but one which will improve rmorale in the trenches. I am not trying to put people off marriage but with a fifty per cent divorce rate driven almost entirely by women one is indeed playing Russian Roulette and that does not account for the intact but miserable and frankly the idea that one can adequately vet for the right type of women is pie-in-the-sky.
May I then remind all that prehistorically only forty per cent of men were lucky enough to reproduce (get laid). The problem then is NOT whether men marry or otherwise but whether women reproduce.
Anyway, if Vox is so concerned about matrimony in one presumes America, then what is he doing in Italy. They neither want nor need him. Yankee go home.
If all they can do is throw bullshit. I will disregard everything he says in the dustbin. If they’re so wonderful, let us see them bring forth their desired plans. If not, they’re full of shit.
That Teddy has to resort to becoming one of the petulant little gammas he loves to deride whenever people don’t instantly agree with his every declaration of truth tells you about the true strength of his arguments.
Although the man does make some astute observations about the collapsing society we live in, his obsessive notion of “saving western civilization” shows just how obliviously clueless he is.
>i>Anyway, if Vox is so concerned about matrimony in one presumes America, then what is he doing in Italy.
EXACTLY.
The hypocrisy of that position does not go unnoticed among Teddy’s readers. Rub his face in it, though, and he goes full-on kicking, screaming gamma and bans you from his site.
You may as well ask him why he champions white nationalism while looking the way that makes impossible to mention him on 4chan without having the thread swamped in La Creatura memes.
Vox’s blog even though makes some good points, has a become an echo chamber and cult like in nature. There are times, its insufferably obnoxious to read the boot liking comments of his cult members slavishly lapping up every word written as it were from god. There is a website or two on the web that basically genuflect to the Supreme Dark Lord and not call him out where needed and write blog posts reinforcing his arguments.
Vox Day is the most insecure whiny pretend alpha on the internet. Would love Dalrock to do a post on his recent MGTOW stuff, Vox would cry for weeks.
“The whole thread seems to be a 100% equivalent of old Boomers telling those youngsters to stop being lazy and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.”
Boomer advice is half self-congratulation and half fear that giving away 50 years to a fat, turkey neck was an extraordinary mistake. It never has anything to do with any real concern about the advicee. The same old boomers who call their ‘Dear Bride’ right after playing 18 holes of golf to coo and say I love you and then go lay their hands on the golf course single mom waitresses in a way that could lead to arrest. Joe Biden seems frigid in comparison to how tradcons lay their mitts on waitresses, calling them “doll” and then maintaining cognitive balance by proclaiming their love of the ‘female form’. Then their 40$ tip with their excess boomer cash placates the groped single mom. Look at RS McCain for an example with his glorious marriage to “The One” and then his website is half jerk-bait with all the eye candy because he loves “female beauty.” I loathe tradcons more than feminists at this point and it’s no longer even close.
You think Vox will change his mind if/when his wife asks for a divorce?
VoxDay (aka Teddy Spaghetti) has his strengths but intelligence doesn’t change someone from a pattern thinker to a hypothesis thinker.
A pattern thinker arranges things mentally to fit their pet pattern, bringing up counter arguments to them is considered a sign of being dishonest.
VoxDay thinks the moon landings may have been faked. When asked why he doesn’t give scientific reasons but just that “the government always lies” and “the astronaut speech patterns were unnatural in the press conference after returning to Earth”. When people tell him “the government also tells the truth when its good for them, like when they invented a new super magic ‘atomic bomb'” and that “the astronauts were directly told to speech slowly and clearly so every word would be recorded on the microphones”; VoxDay never responds and doesn’t care (and calls everyone gammas).
He said all intelligent design arguments were worthless and he was about to destroy the theory of evolution with his special secret idea. Which ended up being the same thing ID science has already said, but VoxDays math and numbers were wrong. He then never brings the subject up again.
“Marry and have kids” and “if you marry the wrong women, its your fault” are incompatible. If all men get great vetting skills, then only 10% of men would get married. Because the number of quality women is so low.
I have come to the conclusion that VD is right. If you fear God, you’ll try to do what He commands.
That being said, what awkward young men need is some actionable advice, some game, along with the red pill, truth. Not to make them despair, but for understanding, so they can know how to get a woman and then manage her.
When I was at that point someone gave me a copy of DYD, double your dating or something. It was exactly what I needed, but if someone had given me Rollo’s book at the same time maybe my marriage wouldn’t have come so close to imploding.
Vox Day is right, but to be effective a man has to fear God first, not a woman (make your mission your priority), and listen to some of the guys with the best actionable marriage advice, those atheists at the married red pill subreddit. Don’t D.E.E.R. is genius.
People who spout that stuff need to think things through a bit more and realize that just telling a man to have a good attitude and lift weights is not enough.
I would love for them to tell me how to make friends and connections, but they will be just as bad as most church members I have talked about on the issue who do nothing to help the problem. They only know how to call others names.
I am not going to start proclaiming the religion of MGTOW, but it sure as heck is harder than anyone not facing it realizes.
You are right Billy. It’s not easy.
I’m glad you haven’t given into despair.
Eric:
forge on.
There’s the hope. Sounds like you have had a tough road man. I’m sorry. But you haven’t given up hope either and I appreciate that.
I would have a lot more respect for the “men need to marry and have children because it’s their duty” crowd if they would tell these men honestly what the risks are, how to mitigate those risks, how to improve themselves so as to mitigate the risks, and how to select women who mitigate the risks.
Today, interaction with women is almost entirely an exercise in risk management. And managing those risks takes a skill set that very few men have naturally and that most of us never were given ANY instruction in at all. Some of us not until our 40s. It’s a hell of a lot better to get that instruction at age 11 and 12 (as I’ve done with my son) than it is to have it rammed up your ass at age 42 (as happened with me).
The risks are:
Half of you will get divorced. Those of you who end up divorced will lose most of what you worked for, including your children. You will lose the ability to influence the upbringing of your children. Some of you will see your children abused by their mother or a stepfather. And you will have to pay your ex wife for the privilege of having been once married to her. You will live in poverty for some years while your ex wife lives in the house you continue to pay for, having sex in what was your bedroom with a string of men she is more attracted to than she was to you.
Of the remaining half that stay married, most of you will be in marriages that are functional at best, and your marriages will likely suffer from at least one intractable, insoluble problem that will result in one of you not getting a major need met, and having to live with that and accept it.
Some of you will be in terrible marriages.
In order to mitigate these risks, and assuming you’re still interested in this marriage thing, you must be as attractive, sexually and otherwise, as possible. You must get an education or training. You must work a job and get really really good at it. You must earn at least 300% of what you personally need to support yourself. At a very, very bare minimum, you must earn enough to support yourself and be able to save a little money. You must have your own place, not live with your parents, and have a decent car.
You must look your absolute best. You must train with weights and in a martial art. You must get into the best shape of your life. You must invest in personal grooming and dress. You must spend inordinate amounts of time finding the best “look” for yourself that makes you the most attractive to women. You must experiment with hairstyles, facial hair, glasses or Lasik or contacts, and manscaping. And you must find the time to do this in addition to your education, training, and work. All for the purpose of making yourself appealing to women.
You must change yourself to eliminate any unattractive behaviors. You may not have weird esoteric Spergy like hobbies, such as model railroading or playing Fortnite or collecting action figures. You are not permitted to own an Xbox or a Playstation. You have to take up a hobby you might not be all that interested in, like salsa dancing or mountaineering or extreme sports.
Then, after all of this, you must learn the nature of men and women. You must learn all about how women act and what they respond to. You must then learn and internalize biblical truths and wisdom about men, women, marriage, sex, and sexual relationships. You must be her head and you must wash her in the water of the Word – even when she resists. You must tell her “no”. You must stand firm. You will have to endure her shit testing, verbal and emotional abuse, ragefests, crying jags, pouting, sulking, and mood swings.
You cannot show her any negative emotions. If you feel depressed, despair, anger or rage, you are not allowed to show them to her. You can feel them but you MUST keep them to yourself or talk to other men or a therapist. She will know you’re going to a therapist, however, and will view you as weak and ineffectual.
And you must do all of the above, continually and without fail, for the entire duration of the marriage. If you fail, if you slip, if you falter even a little bit, your marriage WILL fail and she WILL leave you, cheat on you, or begin treating you very poorly.
You must remember at all times that your devoutness, dedication to God, prayers, and upstanding life mean absolutely nothing to the women you date or the woman you marry. You must remember that all she truly cares about is how sexually attracted she is to you and whether she respects you. She will not respect you for going to church, praying, serving, or being a true believer. She will not respect you for your kindness and gentleness. She will not respect you for your love for her. She will not respect you even for having a good job.
The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing, that will make her respect you is your ability to replace her. You must project to her, clearly, at all times, the following message: “You will respect me, or I will leave you/remove you from my home and replace you with a woman who will respect me. If you will not have sex with me, I will either (a) leave you/remove you from my home and replace you with a woman/women who will have sex with me, or (b) cheat on you and have sex with other women.”
Remember as well that no one will help you keep your marriage intact. Not your wife, not your parents, not her parents, not any of your friends, not your pastor/priest, and not your church. In fact, many of these people will be actively working to destroy your marriage. Many of these people will actively encourage your wife to leave you. And then when she does leave you, these same people will blame you for her leaving.
It makes absolutely not one iota of a quantum of any difference that she professes Christ. There are absolutely no differences at all between Christian women and nonChristian women when it comes to the way they relate to men. You must remember this at all times as well.
OK guys, get to it. Get out there and get married!
Oh, and by the way, for a growing percentage of you, you can do all of these things, and you will still be unable to attract a woman. You can reach maximum personal improvement, and you will still be unable to find any woman willing to marry you. Your best will never be good enough for any woman.
And for a growing percentage of you who do manage to find a woman to marry you, you can do all of these things, very well and successfully, and she will still leave you and divorce you. And what’s more, she will be rewarded for doing so – with YOUR money, property, and children.
I said:
most of you will be in marriages that are functional at best, and your marriages will likely suffer from at least one intractable, insoluble problem that will result in one of you not getting a major need met, and having to live with that and accept it
For most of you, the person not getting a major need met will be you as husbands, and the major need that isn’t getting met is that you will not be getting the sex you want, at the frequency or quality you want. Everything in your marriages will work more or less OK, except the sex, and this is because you just don’t get it done for her in the bedroom.
She just isn’t all that sexually attracted to you. Either she never really was all that attracted to you; or she isn’t anymore because of life or weight gain or job loss or the kids or her mom or whatever. And she resents the fact that she couldn’t get F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer to man up and get a job. She couldn’t get Harley McBadboy to settle down and stop cheating on her. She couldn’t get Frank Fratboy to pay attention to her beyond a pump and dump. She couldn’t get Will WorshipLeader to date her; he’s dating Ellie EvangelicalAmericanPrincess. She couldn’t get Alan AssistantPastor to date her either; he either (1) married a woman who will cheat on him later with Harley or F**kbuddy; or (2) is gay.
I would have a lot more respect for the “men need to marry and have children because it’s their duty” crowd if they would tell these men honestly what the risks are, how to mitigate those risks, how to improve themselves so as to mitigate the risks, and how to select women who mitigate the risks.
Today, interaction with women is almost entirely an exercise in risk management.
Right. I agree with this. That’s why Rian Stone and the guys at MRP are so helpful. They help fix the man, not the marriage, and that’s what’s really needed. Ironically those atheists can better help you live a God fearing life than most church advice mongers.
But it all goes back to fearing God instead of other things. Manage risk, yes, but also read Job.
@ BillyS
It’s a start. Have you tried it?
7817:
Fine. I have no problem with any of that. Then let’s have VD and everyone else in the manup and get married crowd start telling the truth about what those risks are.
Let’s also be honest and tell these guys:
1) You can do all these things and you will still fail.
2) You can do all these things and your marriages will still fail.
3) Your dedication to God and status of being a “good man” mean exactly jacksquat when it comes to making a marriage work.
4) If you want to attract a woman, you have to be a badass at your job, making good money, be in excellent shape, have cool friends, and do cool stuff that women like when you’re not working.
5) You have to turn yourself into the asshole everyone told you not to be. You have to be willing to go against biblical teaching and separate from or divorce a wife who’s continuing to act like an insufferable bitch. You have to make clear to your wife that you WILL walk away from your marriage if you aren’t getting what you want. You have to make clear to your wife that you WILL divorce her, no matter the cost, if she isn’t falling in line.
You cannot show her any negative emotions. If you feel depressed, despair, anger or rage, you are not allowed to show them to her. You can feel them but you MUST keep them to yourself or talk to other men or a therapist. She will know you’re going to a therapist, however, and will view you as weak and ineffectual.
And you must do all of the above, continually and without fail, for the entire duration of the marriage. If you fail, if you slip, if you falter even a little bit, your marriage WILL fail and she WILL leave you, cheat on you, or begin treating you very poorly.
Man you’ve helped me alot, but this is too bleak. Even the atheists have more hope than this.
I’ve failed at those things, but by the grace of God I’m still married and still have my kids.
Let’s encourage each other as best we can through this fallen world. It’s a wicked place and no one is unaffected, but there is hope. Men can mitigate the risk. Some of us will be divorced raped. Help your brothers .
I know a guy that was divorced raped. He got another woman, started a second family. He’s not married but he’s got a second family now. He’s not even Christian as far as I know, but he had hope. Gave him a copy of The Rational Male one day when he was low. Think it helped him.
Help your brothers.
No, it’s not too bleak. This is reality for a lot of men.
…and whist we are laying into Vox Day, (whose blog I always enjoy reading and whose insights I much admire) what is all that nonsense about his being Native American. Certainly to me he does not look like a Tomahawk Indian. I sometimes get the impression that America having done away with all ranks and distinctions, claiming Native American lineage is the American equivalent of a Knighthood. So far as I can see you are all a lot of Mutts anyway so you probably are all Tomahawk too.
To prevent Dalrock having to look up more English slang The Dog’s Bollocks (Testicles) ie :- means perhaps surprisingly, the very best.
I want the pretty lies to perish just as much as you do Deti. Church marriage advice is largely wicked. The liars are incredibly destructive.
Your dedication to God and status of being a “good man” mean exactly jacksquat when it comes to making a marriage work.
Virtue is not arousing to women, true, and they don’t care more for the “good guys”. But you can fear God and be a “bad boy” in the eyes of women. Just stop listening to the cult of nice church people. Look at King David.
If you want to attract a woman, you have to be a badass at your job, making good money, be in excellent shape, have cool friends, and do cool stuff that women like when you’re not working.
This doesn’t hurt, but do it for yourself, not for a woman.
You have to turn yourself into the asshole everyone told you not to be.
Right, but that can be kinda fun.
You have to be willing to go against biblical teaching and separate from or divorce a wife who’s continuing to act like an insufferable bitch. You have to make clear to your wife that you WILL walk away from your marriage if you aren’t getting what you want. You have to make clear to your wife that you WILL divorce her, no matter the cost, if she isn’t falling in line.
This isn’t bad, but covert communication is better than overt, and ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness (like Rollo says).
I am helping my brothers. I’m telling them the truth. It’s not easy. It’s not fun. But it is the truth.
We do our brothers no favors by sugarcoating things. For a growing percentage of men, life will be mostly poverty, hard work, and decades of grinding involuntary celibacy interspersed with the occasional hooker, one night stand, or short term relationship. Marriage and fatherhood is not in the cards for most men.
Marriage is a shit fest. You gents just have to be honest and realize it. It is better for a man to accept this. No marriage is worth this shit. Not the best one out there. None. That is why MGTOW grows. Without societal constraints, women run amok and cannot be controlled, not by you, not by anyone. Game away, I’ll laugh at the pitiful attempts by all the worthy alphas. It makes my day. They’re so alpha, they pander to women and call it ‘game’.
In the end, they all do it because they know, deep down inside, they know that women own them.
Hilarious stuff gents! Keep it up.
What an incredible list of expectations for men. Meanwhile women just have to hover around between 150 and 170 pounds with NO other expectations to meet. Our culture takes care of everything else for them, culturally, legally, socially, psychologically etc. Ask for anything more from your 170 pounder and you are a jack-booted thug for the patriarchy.It’s so unreal. And the “half will divorce” is my only quibble with your great post. It’s between 70 and 80% these days. Maybe even higher. A guy marrying in 2019 has a much higher than 50% of divorce. Could be as high as 85% according to Black Dragon Blog which really broke it down quite well. There are still marriages from the fifties, not to mention 60’s and 70’s pumping up the ‘successful’ marriage numbers. Those are marriages from completely different cultures
I am helping my brothers. I’m telling them the truth. It’s not easy. It’s not fun. But it is the truth.
We do our brothers no favors by sugarcoating things.
I don’t disagree with telling them the truth, however bad it is. I have a problem with spreading despair. I’ve gone through this. A man CAN do it. Not all will, some will fail but there is hope.
When atheists realise the reality of the situation and still have a plan and more hope than you, you need to recalibrate.
Oscar
There’s very little honest discussion on what the risks are, and how to reduce, and/or mitigate them, and which risks can’t be reduced and/or mitigated, and simply must be accepted, or not.
Except for certain parts of the androsphere, of course. This site, Rollo Tomassi, the Family Alpha and others. Too bad the tradcons cannot Man UP and accept reality about women, and then follow through with actionable advice.
Those who tell other men to “manUP” but offer no actionable steps to succeed are mere hypocrites.
John James R:
Most men have lowered their expectations so far that their expectations for women are
–don’t be fat
–don’t be a bitch all the time
The marriage battle was lost. Ages ago, everyone else realises this but Tradcon shills. The risks far outweigh any and all potential benefits. It’s stupid. There is no more defense. Marriage is a joke.
Trying to entice men to marry under the current circumstances is cruel and sick. Trying to get them to step on a mine so you don’t have to.
Even if you don’t get divorced and destroyed, you have very little to look forward to. Whatever way you try and slice it, men get the raw end of the deal. It’s just not worth it.
MGTOW provides men with an alternative. One that cuts out tradcon bullshit, one that promotes their well being above that of tradcon shills, society and feminists. That is why you have no recourse, nothing to offer men.
Despair 7817.
Bits from today’s Voxday post.
(This coming from a man that boasts about leaving America because it was the smart thing to do before collapse.)
(What planet has he been living on?)
AnonS:
VD has been saying this for a while.
You might want to read this post from 6 months ago:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/12/14/no-respect/
Sorry, 18 months ago
Ah, you see. It’s all there. He wants you to go and fight his battles. He wants single men to go and fight the courts, the feminists and the family court judges. All for him.
He might as well be handing out white feathers at this point. No carrots necessary.
Oscar
I’m raising four boys. I need to have this conversation with them.
Have you read Deep Strength’s book yet? If not, I urge you to do so ASAP.
So, until that hard reset happens, how do we help our boys find the kind of girls who are least likely to detonate their marriages? Or, even better, the kind of girls who are most likely to actually put the effort into building a happy marriage.
Your boys need to see clearly, and to learn to watch what girls do, ignore what they say. That is the first filter men should apply: yeah, ok, she goes to church on Sunday and waves her hands a lot during the laser light show, what was she doing on Saturday night? Friday afternoon?
(By the way, a version of this is discussed on the Campbell / Tomassi podcast I posted up thread, in the context of women’s easy tolerance of cognitive dissonance).
Dalrock’s two essays on interview a prospective wife are still valid. Deep Strength has his own filters in his book (did you read it, yet, hint?)
Men need to have a “mission” whether they are religious or not, and that mission cannot ever be a woman. The mindset is “I have this mission, I invite you to come along with me”, not “Oh, woman, you complete me! Please, please, please condescend to come with me?”.
Given that we are soaked in a gynocentric message, these are all countercultural messages.
Plus the pool of women that a man draws from matters very much, it is necessary but not sufficient for your sons that a woman have a Christian background.
There are essays all around on this topic, it would be a good thing for multiple men to synthesize a set of filters / requirements. Perhaps via email, rather than on public sites…
PS: This is the kind of positive, actionable discussion that helps men. Not “ManUP! You worthless maggots!” as various TradCons and AMOG’s prefer. Cheap imitations of movie roles are not reality…
@thedeti, @7817
Agree with 7817, deti, you’re getting into blackpill thinking and “lookism”. Men do not have to be perfect, they do have to be leaders, they have to be the “alpha” of their house and that means understanding women wth clear sight.
No question that a married man who has become betaized is playing the Game of Marriage on the “difficult” setting, but there’s still actions he can take to improve / repair the situation, starting with his own mental outlook.
Despair is a killer. A man who finds himself getting into it needs a way out ASAP. History is full of examples.
feministhater
He wants you to go and fight his battles. He wants single men to go and fight the courts, the feminists and the family court judges. All for him.
In a previous temper tantrum, Vox Day wondered why men in the US didn’t just go out and murder Family Court judges. Then go back and slit their veins in the bath, like a Roman patriarch.
It was a a remarkably foolish and childish display. I wonder how far down that path he’ll go during this tantrum?
AnonReader:
I’m not getting into lookism or Black Pill. I’m stating the conditions on the ground for most men. Yes, a man has to be a leader and be the alpha of his house. I set out what the average, ordinary man will have to do in order to be those things. There is a greater emphasis on physical appearance now. Men have to improve their physical appearances. Does that mean they have to be musclebound powerlifters? No. But it does mean they can’t be 300 pound fatasses and it does mean if they started out as 175 pound in shape guys, they can’t let themselves go and become 300 pound fatasses during the marriage.
Men need to have a “mission” whether they are religious or not, and that mission cannot ever be a woman. The mindset is “I have this mission, I invite you to come along with me”, not “Oh, woman, you complete me! Please, please, please condescend to come with me?”.
This is an important point. From the very first date, my message to Mychael was “I am about to be selected for my active psychology internship. I have no idea where that will be. After I do my time, I will retire, buy property in Montana and build my fathers dream ranch. You may come along if you like, but my plans are not changing no matter happens after this date,”
I may have even used those exact words.
It’s not even “Oh woman you complete me! Please, please, please condescend to come with me?”
It’s more like “Oh woman, you complete me! I will go with you! I will go where you want to go! We will do what you want and our lives will be structured as you, not I, see fit. We will move for your career. We will do it the way you want. Just, please don’t reject me and don’t leave me!
Like I’ve said Deti, your advice has given me real material benefit over the last few years. I greatly appreciate you telling the truth even when it’s not pretty. Those kinds of comments helped me come to terms with reality, and I’d love to at minimum buy you a beer someday and shake your hand.
The only point I’m making is that we can’t lose our morale. There has to be hope, even if it is just hope that a man can be faithful to God in spite of all the lies the church tells him, and all the lies society tells him. Other man have made it through, and even if a man doesn’t, if he is faithful to God (not the god of nice) God will bless him, and who knows what will happen then.
thedeti
“Oh woman, you complete me! I will go with you!
That level of thirst is real, for sure, but it’s not the norm. Not yet…
AnonReader:
I know too many men who are that thirsty. I was one of them, too.
Eric,
Don’t condemn yourself. Repent of anything you clearly see you did wrong, but don’t wallow in mythical failures. You could not have kept your father and mother on the straight path. They both made choices.
My dad’s experience of getting divorced by my step mother later in life showed me some things. She managed money better than he did, but she was not faithful either.
You are right that we can only do what we can. It just gets to be hard when nothing seems to be in the future, but I just keep plodding away, though it sure does get lonely.
Your married sister is being evil and needs to repent, though no one will likely tell her or push her to realize that. While porn is not good (and brings its own technological dangers today) I do not think it is as evil as the crusade against it proclaims. It does not always lead to the worst case and I suspect it rarely does. It’s use is also caused in large part by unhappy and uncooperative wives. Nothing will really change until that is dealt with. The Scriptures proclaim that marriage is the proper outlet for sex, but you don’t get that outlet when so many accept or even encourage women to shut off the spigot there.
Oscar,
VoxDay is just in another of his idiocy moments, failing to consider the whole picture. He is really smart in some ways (and makes many good points), but he has no mechanism for self-correction, learning or even tolerance for reasonable disagreement. This leads him to AMOG a lot, unfortunately. He has a great wife, so everyone should, right?
I am sure he knows that stuff happens, but he still thinks at a core level that those who get whacked in life failed to do what they should do, rather than realizing they faced troubles he avoided. Even his past gaming success was a case of being in the right place at the right time more than any brilliance he has, though I am sure he believes it was all him, at the root.
It is hard for anyone to stay Biblically compassionate, holding firmly against sin while helping others rather than just beating them down. I don’t think I have found anyone who is good at both ends of these.
7817,
I never will because my faith in Jesus is far too deep, but I can see how easy it would be. No easy route out either. I really want to find a good church to work with/through, but few can handle someone with strong views and help them connect appropriately with others outside of a few services during the week. That is reprehensible, but is the state of the modern Church, unfortunately.
deti,
This is why my exwife thinks the spousal support(Texas name for alimony) is just. It is for “all the years she gave me. I have thought things through and she never gave me any years. She slaved way and felt like a slave, generating her hostility, but she never did anything in an attempt to make me better, except possibly when it would directly benefit her.
Though stating this makes many say I am just bitter, as was noted earlier in the conversation. Women today have no direct incentive or push to help build a solid marriage. Some still do but they are the exception and you can’t know for sure if that will be true ahead of time.
Oscar,
A good attitude or lifting weights would not have had any impact on my marriage. My wife was never committed to the marriage and only took me because all her friends in the small church we met and married in were getting married and she was afraid of being left alone.
I did ignore here outright rebellion before the marriage and continual proclamations that she didn’t want to be married. I was too naive and forceful and plowed ahead anyway.
I don’t lift because I am a perfectionist and never could get the plan I want to follow started, which is my own fault. I do constantly try to “look on the bright side of life” to quote Monty Python, but it is a struggle now with so little bright side ahead in the natural view.
I am quirky, but faithful and dedicated to God for my entire life (imperfectly of course). I ended up with none of what I sought. I will never leave God, but I do have hard times in my mind many places and I can’t just be naive like most Christians, though most of those have friends and family to support them. You have 3 (or was it 4?) sons. I raised kids, but it turned out they were someone else’s and I will never be someone’s only father and not even a father at all for most of them.
Ultimately though, tough for me. I couldn’t control my birth or most of my life. All I can do is plow ahead the best I can, trying to make as few personal mistakes as I can.
7817,
We can’t give good solutions to a problem until we really know the problem. You have a wife and family, which is worthy of praise! Be grateful for that continuously. Some of us don’t however and the going is a lot rougher, especially without anyone to support us. I don’t know how many others lack even friends to provide an emotional boost, but it can be incredibly lonely, even for us loners.
I know that God is on the throne and I will serve Him no matter what, but I no longer care about any rewards in the next life. I am just seeking to make it through this one without too much pain.
Carving out time for those stuck in this situation would be far better than handing them a book. I know I desperately need friends now, but I don’t have the skills or ability to achieve the level of friendship I need and churches are absolutely no help.
I was talking with someone who is a friend (though not at this level) and he was noting how Mormons do this so much better. They tend to look out for their own, going out of their way to do so. Life isn’t perfect, but it is far better than any church I have seen and I have been in many over the 40+ years I have been saved. (And no, I will not become a Mormon, too many Scriptural problems there.)
BTW, I don’t want to be an asshole so I won’t. Some people think I am because I am strong willed and opinionated, but it is not the same thing.
Atheists are idiots. Anyone who can claim to know that no god exists is a complete fool and I will not waste any time trying to compete with them. I would rather deal with the truth than let them pull my chains. Note that Proverbs says you are doomed whether you pay attention to a fool or ignore him, so I will pick ignoring him as the more productive option.
Opus,
I believe VoxDay uses his Native American heritage as a mocking of the political correct trends of progressive leftists to do so, not as a key point.
Does Vox even see his own goal with the “Man up and fight back against family court judges!” (Because you WILL get divorced and because family court is 100% misandric) Ha ha. I thought successful marriage is the ONLY option. So who would even have to deal with the family courts, much less ‘fight’ them? And good luck manning up and fighting the family courts which will only ruin your life to an even greater extent if you get pugnacious with them. How about we just don’t give the marriage/family court mafia any of our business anymore? Customers walking away should get them to look at their product’s quality for once.
“The only point I’m making is that we can’t lose our morale.”
Getting the full truth about modern marriage and seeing life clearly, as it is, without ‘man up’ goggles is not ‘losing morale.’ To me, the Red Pill has GIVEN me so much morale. Red Pill knowledge should have nothing to do with ‘morale’ because the morale you’re referring to concerns the same life you’ve just cut ties with. If you walk out of a theatre because a movie is awful, you haven’t lost morale. You’re just taking your finite amount of time elsewhere.
If you walk out of a theatre because a movie is awful, you haven’t lost morale. You’re just taking your finite amount of time elsewhere.
I’ve got no beef with anyone who quietly goes their own way. I was there once.
The ones who keep wailing that all is lost keep interrupting my coffee. They are worthless losers.
Everyone has an anger phase. That’s normal, even healthy. But what are you going to do with that anger? Anger can be good fuel. That can be healthy. Unfortunately the loud MGTOW’s keep using their anger for napalm instead of fuel. It would be fine if they didn’t keep trying to light fires where I sit.
Feminishater, be a man, get married, part 2
TFM’s answer
No one is interrupting jack shit of yours. Not at all. You come here on your own free will, no one has come to seek you out and whine to you. Not one person. Stop whining that other men do not see it your way.
They’re not doing anything at all to you. Nothing and yet they cause you this much consternation… what MGTOW does is 100% fine, there is not one thing wrong with it. You just don’t like it. Suck it up buttercup.
In some circles it is chic to brag that you are 1/32 Cherokee, even if you are blond and blue eyed. I don’t get it either.
Curiously, most Mexican-Americans are also “Native American” (and look the part), yet few people who look European brag about being 1/32 Mestizo.
Mormons do this so much better. They tend to look out for their own, going out of their way to do so. Life isn’t perfect, but it is far better than any church I have seen
The mormons can do this primarily because they are their own church, and the way they run things is to embed you into a particular stake (parish) in a way where families are basically assigned to assist each other and create thick community. Mormons live most of their social lives with the other mormons in their own stake and to a lesser extent region, and the church actively assigns this and monitors this. If you buck the rules, out you go, as in out the door … there is no church hopping in mormonism (not a variety of churches like Protestants have and they don’t let you hop around parishes like Catholics do either). This creates and reinforces thick community, because if you buck the rules, out you go, and your entire social network and family goes away, leaving you utterly alone. Most people for that reason, apart from the most intrepid types, do not buck the rules. It’s the opposite of the kind of individualist mindset that is normative in most American Protestantism, for example, and which is also the case in much of Catholicism, which has very weak community aspects at least in the US.
The mormon situation isn’t really replicable outside Mormonism and similar groups, like the Amish or the Orthodox jews, who also practice the same thing (no other options/choices, full on social network in the community, if you buck the rules, you get kicked out of your entire social universe). Can’t replicate that on a broader level, really.
@7817
The ones who keep wailing that all is lost keep interrupting my coffee. They are worthless losers.
Everyone has an anger phase. That’s normal, even healthy. But what are you going to do with that anger? Anger can be good fuel. That can be healthy. Unfortunately the loud MGTOW’s keep using their anger for napalm instead of fuel. It would be fine if they didn’t keep trying to light fires where I sit.
I’d like to remind that this tangent started not even because MGTOWs rustled Vox’ jimmies by existing, though they did, but because Vox was personally offended by some Internet anonymous refusing to man up and take responsibility for everything forever after a failed marriage with kids.
Then, speaking generally:
(1) Do you (or anyone who has a beef with MGTOWs) agree that society is supposed to exist for mutual benefit of its members? As for what I mean by “benefits”, refer to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and take note that offered promises of satisfying the higher-tier needs cannot override reality where lower-tier needs are not satisfied, at least in the long run.
(2) Do you agree that the modern marriage provides so little benefit to men that it is utterly dwarfed by required effort and risk, and in fact the whole institution required a campaign of constant, concerted deception regarding risks and rewards involved to coast on intertia as far as it did?
(3) Do you agree that the modern marriage is backed by about every force in today’s society (American society, though situation in other developed countries is little different) that has actual political influence and therefore in foreseeable future it cannot be dismantled without some sort of uncontrollable societal catastrophe, so-called “reset”?
Who wails at you? Random people on the street? Or are you f.o.s maybe? Strawman harder, clown.
feministhater
No one is interrupting jack shit of yours. Not at all. You come here on your own free will, no one has come to seek you out and whine to you. Not one person. Stop whining that other men do not see it your way.
The same applies to you. Dalrock is pro-marriage, and most of the men who participate here are also. On almost every thread you have to pop in and dump the same old doom and gloom into the discussion. You seek out the men here to whine to and snarl at.
tl;dr
“Stop whining that other men do not see it your way'”…
FatR
Much of what you write in this comment is accurate. So what?
Given the conditions, what do you plan to do about it in your own life?
Other men are trying to make their lives better, especially the married men. Do you have suggestions? Or are you just looking for a pity party?
@Frank K
You are right. I had forgotten that he does that.
It is not just Americans. I am afraid this disease of boasting about ones more obscure ethnicities exists also on my side of the pond. I recall: one extremely full-of-herself woman the wife of a former leader of a political party (whom it is rumoured is homo-sexually inclined) spelling her name Fiona with two Fs but minus the a and boasting of being Welsh. That she sounds English, has spent her entire life in the home counties and probably could not even pinpoint Wales on a map is something we are supposed to gloss over. It is OK to be Welsh as long as you don’t actually have to live there – the house prices are so low and the poverty is before one in the endless empty shops.
Then again I have an acquaintance who had his DNA tested and proudly informed me that he had been Out of Africa for Fifty Thousand years. I am no believer in the OoA theory and so I laughed. By what strange mechanism I asked did your relatives go from being Negro to being as white as I am in that short space of biological time. I don’t believe in the possibility of evolution either but said nothing about that.
Mormons also aren’t all as unified as they appear from the outside. Mormon women are still women, and they can be just as feminist as other women. A lot of the cultural norms that used to dominate Utah (near-prohibition of alcohol, tobacco and caffeine) have eroded in the last 20+ years.
In any event, as Novaseeker pointed out, the particular cultural aspects of the LDS church are not readily replicated, partly because LDS theology is very, very different from other religions. There’s literally no place else for LDS to go and not be considered apostate.
I’ve got huge sympathy for men who actually got burnt, or couldn’t find a decent woman, and moved on with their lives. It’s sad, and I hope for good things for them.
None of them are here whining, because they Actually Went Their Own Way.
I can respect those men. At least they have their dignity. I hope things will get better for those men.
Genevieve Wood did a good job of outlining the problems and consequences of family breakdown, but she is non-existent on root causes.
In her “what can be done” section, removing tax penalties for families, ”getting institutions to play their part”, includes churches.
Yet, if churches tell wives that they have no reason to leave their husbands, then those same wives run off to the media, the Police and the law courts, crying “Abuse!”. Ditto anyone who considers themselves gay and approaches a church for help: “Gay conversion therapy!”
Does Ms Wood want to help fix the family? She will need to start by fixing the institutional (her word) problem of the Law and the State aimed against husbands and fathers
I’m not seeking out anyone. Whining? I’m not complaining about anything. Besides being sick to death of tradcons, more so than feminists any day of the week, I make my comments and that’s that. When someone speaks out against MGTOW, when someone else intentionally makes reference to MGTOW and whines about it, I am well within my bounds to speak about their misgivings. What is the problem you gents have with people speaking about an issue?
7817 supports self-censorship. He would prefer that MGTOW just shut up and go away. His respect means nothing to me. He feels despair where I feel hope. I’m not pro-marriage, I’m pro Biblical Marriage but you can’t have that. You really can’t. It doesn’t exist. Scot knows it, Dalrock knows it, you all know it. Pretend otherwise, it amuses me to no end.
You don’t get MGTOW at all. It’s doesn’t mean going to live out alone in the woods, although it can be that if you so choose. It means no marriage and no cohabitation. Why? Well because those two choices mean the end to you having control over your own life. Once you enter into those, someone else controls your life, namely the woman and the state. It’s quite simple. A MGTOW is free to join any other groups he so desires. He is free to speak out or not. He can do what he finds his purpose in. His number one issue is having authority and responsibility over his own life, something marriage removes.
Anon Reader thinks I’m about doom and gloom. No, modern marriage is doom and gloom, you guys have enough of that yourselves, look at deti’s comments. There is an alternative and that brings me hope. Marriage is destroyed. Embrace its death and learn to live without it.
I get it though. You guys are really, really, trying hard to save marriage; and along I come and keep reminding you that it’s been destroyed. That there is nothing of marriage left to save. That things have to be reset before they can get better. You see despair, I see hope. My hope lies in the destruction of the old and the birth of the new. The end of the feminist era and the birth of the new.
I’m not whining, I’m immensely enjoying the destruction of the current system.
Since I’ve been on this blog, I’ve done three things in my life.
I’ve extinguished all debt. On my house, car and card.
I’ve worked my arse off to the point that I quit my job about five yeas ago, invested the money carefully in shares that pay me a dividend and I now work at my own pace for my own needs, to supplement my income. I’ve covered my medical costs, my housing costs and my spending needs and still have money left over for my hobbies. I’ve picked up a few skills in between that I now use as a purely cash endeavor to increase my investments and income but not my tax payments. I’ve been able to squeeze every last ounce of value out of what I buy and thus starve the system of my resources.
And lastly, I’ve found purpose in my life. Nothing major, but by finding joy in the little things and the joy of being around people who actually care about my well being, I have found some semblance of peace.
All this could not have been done so easily and quickly had I been married or in a long term relationship. The control and authority I exert over my life now would have been dashed.
This has been largely due to God allowing me to find MGTOW. It has set me free in ways I couldn’t have imagined before. I find myself thanking God more and more, each and every day. I now am able to give voluntarily to those I care about without wanting something in return. I have the means to do so without placing myself in harm’s way or in extreme financial difficulty. I have more friends now than at any point in my life and they mean something to me and I mean something to them, to the point that if I find myself in a sticky situation, they are always there to help.
Keep bashing on MGTOW but it has the potential to be something far greater than others give it credit for.
Given the conditions, what do you plan to do about it in your own life?
Other men are trying to make their lives better, especially the married men.
I’ve already made my life better (admittedly with the help of inheritance from my grandparents). I work as a freelancer, just enough to support myself and help my mother, and devote my ample free time to various hobbies. Barring events beyond my control, such as worldwide economic crisis or WW III, I’m financially secure, with no debts and semi-substantial savings. Despite the assertions that I’m supposed to be unhappy and empty, I just don’t feel like toiling twice as much, never mind following thedeti’s list (and from my experience with friends who work their asses off to be if not filthy rich, then in top 10% of earners, while also having stereotypically manly professions and hobbies, he’s entirely correct, particularly in the assertion that following it may STILL NOT BE ENOUGH) would make my life any more fulfilling. Not by itself. Without any hint of rewards. Not even guaranteed sex, or non-material rewards like respect!
Do you have suggestions?
Explain the risks to any man who asks for advice. Respect any man who decides to marry in this day and age in spite of those risks for their selfless sacrifice, and respect any man who decides not to for taking an intelligent decision. Just completely forget about shaming tactics. If attempts to shame people into acting against their self-interest quickly stopped working for USSR with all of its information control and propaganda macnine, you sure won’t to better.
BillyS
I never said it would have. I can’t know either way. I’m saying that it would help you now, whether there is a woman in your life, or not.
At least you admit to it. Perfection is the enemy of the good.
Oscar,
“I’m raising four boys. I need to have this conversation with them. ”
Teach your sons to compliance test any girl, early in the dating/courtship process.
This is a podcast by Captain Capitalism on the current dating market. He says the juice is not worth the squeeze. It seems women with birth defects are rejecting men who are 8 and above.
I know. It was (as he likes to call it) “gamma” as hell. Btu somehow it isn’t when he does it. Lol. He then calls MGTOW’s cowards for not attacking judges when he goes and escapes to Italy. What a hypocrite.
I know right? It’s actually the complete opposite.
And then we hear the usual, tired shaming language which ultimately leads to the same thing:
“You can’t get laid! You live in mommy’s basement! You’re gay!” Which is really all it is. That kind of silliness only makes MGTOW grow further. And as far as MGTOW being evil? Tell the Apostle Paul that. He never married. I guess he was evil to eh?
Since the government and the culture gives all the power to the woman it’s pointless to get married. You’re just playing Russian Roulette, only there’s 3 bullets in the chamber not just one.
jg1
This is a podcast by Captain Capitalism on the current dating market. He says the juice is not worth the squeeze
I’m sure that is true for him. Men here and other places who take their religion seriously do not have the option of spinning plates or running pickup endlessly, they are required to marry. Cappy’s opinion isn’t useful or actionable to them.
Personally, whenever I’m around people of college age or older (20-somethings) both churchgoing / religious and secular / agnostic, I see a real hunger in the women for masculinity. A man with the right frame and mindset would for sure bowl them over. But I may be looking over a different pond than Cappy is.
@AR
Well, you need to listen to the podcast to get full gist of it. It is not specifically for him, but he was relating to many situations where his friends are in the 8 and above range where they have good looks and successful in their lives cant find women to date them. Even women with disabilities and birth defects are rejecting them…
As Deti says, however much men try to use game and everything that is needed to keep a woman in a relationship, due to unrestrained hypergamy, they will dump the guy and move onto the next exciting prospect. Women bore easily as they get so much attention and validation via social media and will not bother to be in a relationship. As a result no amount of frame and other instruments can hold a woman’s attention over the long term these days. In a cucked society with effeminate men and masculine women, it will be tough to find men more masculine than them.
Finally, #metoo and in the church, #churchtoo spearheaded by Beth Moore has driven a wedge into any kind of normal relationships with women in this day and age.
Well, you need to listen to the podcast to get full gist of it.
Sigh. I don’t much care for podcasts, frankly, they are often boring and full of empty words. And. Pauses. For. Rabbit trails.
It is not specifically for him, but he was relating to many situations where his friends are in the 8 and above range where they have good looks and successful in their lives cant find women to date them.
Many variables in play, including the odd idea of men rating themselves in terms of looks, like girls do.
Even women with disabilities and birth defects are rejecting them…
.
Personal problems? I’m skeptical that Aaron Clarey is actually spotting a global trend, in part because it doesn’t match what I have seen in the last 2 years in multiple locales from flyover to Philadelphia and NYC.
jg1
As Deti says, however much men try to use game and everything that is needed to keep a woman in a relationship, due to unrestrained hypergamy, they will dump the guy and move onto the next exciting prospect. Women bore easily as they get so much attention and validation via social media and will not bother to be in a relationship.
This is just blackpilling. It is the counsel of despair.
Deti: get Deep Strength’s book and read it.
AR,
The problem is that while some women do resist the urges and pressures to not stay faithful, far more fall prey today because those are so heavy and strong.
It can be quite negative if you let it, but I need to have that constantly banging in the back of my mind in many ways now to keep me from foolishly dropping my guard with a woman I find attractive if she were to seek me out. That doesn’t mean that I can never ever have a relationship, but that I need to always be VERY cautious and constantly work against my own blue pill tendencies. Many would think I should know better, but years of “training” when younger is hard to upset.
Captain Capitalism is a “enjoy the decline” kinda guy. He blends some forms of MGTOW with “I don’t give a f##k” attitude, whereas he is living his life understanding that the country is gone to hell and likely won’t be a turning back. He is NOT a Christian, however. He runs heavy game, in an even more hedonistic way than Roosh ever had (before Roosh converting fully into Orthodox Christianity).
I can say that if we get an illegal alien amnesty in the USA and add 20-30 million new, poor, welfare-loving Democrats to the voting rolls, I will join Cappy and “enjoy the decline”. If an amnesty happens, Bernie Sanders will be considered a moderate politician and in no time, we will have a totalitarian in power, much further left than AOC, Bernie or even Corey Hookers of NJ. We will have a hard Left Congress and Prez for next 100 years if not permanently, because once an Amnesty happens for the 20-30 million illegals here already, they will chain migrate another 100 million new legal immigrants through family petitions in less than 10 years time. We will have American leaders in the making of Nicolas Maduro than “moderates” like Hillary, Merkel, Macron, or even Sanders. Do not believe cups like Karl Rove who say these poor, illiterates from the 3rd world are “natural conservatives”. These people overwhelmingly support bigger govt, higher taxes, restrictions on free speech, and gun confiscations.
The amnesty is the one thing that would “trigger” my “enjoy the decline” attitude. To simply enjoy the decline or to cash out here and bail out, leaving the country for good then, who knows. Until then, I am still hopeful and still in the fight for our country.
Cap Capitalism is right in some ways, however, that “the juice is not worth the squeeze” is actually a very valid point. The work involved seeking women today (or even finding one for marriage) is simply too much for most men. I am blessed with good looks and charm (and a good financial situation and convertible to show for it) and yet, many days I just dread the work involved online dating or approaching women at a local grocer. I can easily converse and have fun chats with strangers in a non-romantic interested way and when I have to deal with women I would like to meet and date, I dread the work involving in “forcing myself” to run Game on her, to have to be even cockier than I normally am and then playing mind games to amuse her with the purpose of getting a date and see where it goes.
I think that evaluating what you get by having a woman in your life (or perish forbid, a Western wife) and analyze the cost involved. It is so lop-sided, it is not even a close call. My only concern for the future is not having a kid(s), that worries that I may have regrets later in life, regrets that would be permanent based on my decisions today. That is my only concern about the future (besides an illegal alien amnesty).
Then I consider the costs and work involved in having kid(s) today, I have no desire to have a kid right now. I do not see the point of raising a kid in a country that is so radically divided, financially headed for a cliff with debt and ripe for social unrest. I do not see a good future for a child in this country anymore. I mean just today, Trump got punked by Pelosi to stop the desperately needed deportations to show Central Americans they will go back. But Trump got punked (just like he got punked for 2 years by Globocuck Paul Ryan) and now Trump has allowed Pelosi and the criminal Left and the Chamber of Commerce’s lobbyists and mobs to mobilize against him. -_- It feel hopeless, I mean some hope remains, but it is getting dimmer with each passing day.
Our country dies a little with every illegal that crosses our border and every ounce of opiates that crosses our Border. It feel almost selfish and cruel to consider brining in a child into a country like this. It is dim. But then I recall how moms are so proud in Ukraine, a country that is infinitely poorer than ours. I have a hard time imagining having a child in Ukraine, for instance, and yet the locals do… so…
Back to the point, I guess life is all about cost-benefit and at 37, I get infinitely more happiness and purpose coaching a RP Christian small group of “young men” (ages ranging 16-28 currently) than I do going out on a date with some broad, even if she is above a 7. I get more gratification working out at the gym, going bowling with male friends, or playing a solid cuppa hours of Shadow of Mordor or CoD these days than I do looking through online profiles or texting some girl I just met (and NO, I am not MGTOW, and not I am not an Otaku or nerd). I just do not feel motivated to do the work needed to meet women anymore. I totally get how Roosh feels lately, his focus and priorities changed from women to his faith and his own personal interests. His readers cannot seem to accept that, which is likely due to an age-gap.
As Cappy Capitalism said, “the juice is not worth the squeeze” and that has become true for me most days. Hard for me to say that, because I got my test and vital tested before I left for Ukraine and I am at above-normal Test for my age and body measurement, T-3/T-4, all that in incredible good ranges (the doc said I have the health and physique of a guy 10 years younger than my age). I am in great physical shape, full head of hair, with superb Game knowledge. I feel better now then in my 20s and yet, motivation to approach and seek out women has been very low lately.
One of my friends asked me a week ago why I workout so much to stay in shape if I feel so unmotivated to approach girls here these days and I said “girls today are just not worth my time and energy”. My dude said that is because I have been to Ukraine a few times before and saw much higher quality product in the marketplace and have changed my own expectations of women… and maybe that is the case, but I do not know. All I know is that from now on, I will now be saying “the juice is just not worth the squeeze” about certain girls for sure. Lol What a great line.
Billy
The problem is that while some women do resist the urges and pressures to not stay faithful, far more fall prey today because those are so heavy and strong.
Plus the negative results for women are weaker than at any time in the previous 200 years. It means much more careful vetting, and creating expectations right up at the front, just for a start.
It can be quite negative if you let it, but I need to have that constantly banging in the back of my mind in many ways now to keep me from foolishly dropping my guard with a woman I find attractive if she were to seek me out.
I believe you are still in the stages of grief. This is totally normal.
@jg1
Ok, I’m listening to the podcast. I’m remembering why, uh, sniff, uh, … cough …. uh…I find, uh, like, uh, podcasts to, uh, be erm, uh, sniff, a waste of time. Gimme edited text.
So around 9:00 Clary discovers or rediscovers the 80:20 distribution from a study by OK Cupid, or, uh, Plenty of Fish or, uh, wait, uh, it was OK Cupid. Another reason I dislike podcasts: men don’t actually do research, they just sit down in front of their laptop and riff stuff. Could stop the recording and do some quick searching but nope, sorry, too much work or something.
Anyway Clary is acting as though he’s never heard of assorrtive mating. If he truly hasn’t, he’s too short for the ride. If he has and he forgot he’s too short for the ride. When he claims that women should engage in assortive mating, he’s way too short for the ride. Because he self-promotes as a smart, worldly wise man who knows what’s up and down – but assortive mating is something anthropologists have known about for years, it’s basic knowledge in the manosphere, even I learned about it nearly10 years ago.
Then at about 12:-00 he babbles about women preferring careers to men, only going for men who are a “9 or 10”, and he can’t remember the difference between transactional sex and desire sex – so he’s read Rollo but not deeply enough to know anything. Pathetic. The focus on looks is pathological, it’s like something out of Calhoun’s Mouse Utopia, frankly.
At 12:56 he mocks the idea that women want sex as much as men do, because if that was true “there would be no prostitution” – directly contradicting what he just claimed, that women “only want sex with 9’s and 10’s”. Does he even listen to himself as he’s babbling?
Something about a survey claiming women are happiest without children and without men – no clue what survey he’s talking about, but the obvious questions leap to mind:
What survey, taken where, when, with what methodology and the Age range of women surveyed. Because it is trivial to demonstrate that women riding the cock carousel in their mid 20’s would be ready to state anonymously or otherwise how happy they were. The same girls 10 years later would be a different story, because that’s how girls are.
Yet Clary doesn’t even come close to this, he just meanders around aimlessly verbalizing.
Now down after 14:00 we get into the notion of alternatives to men: government, internet attention, etc. He then starts telling men “it’s not your fault” and babbles about how ‘you can’t overcome the proppaganda, you can’t overcome The View” — purple pill stuff. Completely ignoring basic truths of women, whether you wish to cite evo-psych, the Bible or anything in between.
Clary is saying that men can never bring a woman into his frame, that a young man must always be in the woman’t frame. That’s not red pill, that’s not purple pill, that’s blue pill.
21:40 “Face the music, marriage is not gonna be in the cards for a lot of you guys, becoming a dad is not gonna be in the cards for a lot of you guys”. That’s not just poolside, that’s the kind of black pilled MGTOW I’m really beginning to dislike. He’s lived down to my expectations from several years back: ignorant, unable / unwilling to do even the most trivial of research, Blue Pill…waste of time.
Black pilling on a tiny scrap of data plus his own internal issues. It’s not based on fact, it’s based on emotion. As the old folks in my family used to say, ‘Taking a button and sewing a coat onto it”.
I could have saved time and just read this story:
https://infogalactic.com/info/Henny_Penny
FeministHater, I am not here bashing MGTOW. I know a few guys that went MGTOW and are happier now than ever before. These are the guys you end up hanging out with and DOING stuff like bowling going to the range, Dave & Busters, gym, etc. The guys who are married and in relationships, these guys have no time at all, their entire lives revolve around women. Not only that, the MGTOW guys have way more money, since they are not spending it on kids (or child support), dates, and etc. They also are able to come on trips, like we went to Vegas last year over Labor Day (do NOT go unless it is between Nov and March, it is too hot)… because they have freedom and have money to do it. These guys are often dressed well and “get some” on the side, even the Christian ones do, but on their terms. Some people think MGTOW dudes are smelly, toothless, and dressed in overalls, but they (can) dress well, as they have much more money on hand. Maybe the guys I associate with have a better standard??
My thing is that God Himself said in Genesis that “it is not good for men to be alone”, so he provided a woman to help him procreate and create families. The issue is that our society has become incredibly dysfunctional, to the point men are going full-bore players or MGTOW because of a number of reason (be it poor male physical appearance, poverty, despair, lack of quality women, single moms, Chuchianism, FemiNazism being widespread, etc). The reasons vary, but the result is the same: societal dysfunction.
I think there is a huge difference between going full-MGTOW and being MGTOW on some issues, like marriage or dating. I can totally see some guys being MGTOW when it came to marriage or having kids or even LTRs. That actually makes sense to me, as I have literally 0 interest in marriage, as I work hard and I enjoy the fruits of my success completely and would much rather not spend the rest of my life or decades in and out of courtrooms and possibly jail, fighting some woman over child support or alimony. That is the reason I have not married an Ukrainian girl yet. The risk is too high for my taste. I struggle with this, but that is how I partially apply a MGTOW principle into my life (no marriage).
But to go full MGTOW just seems unnatural to me. I hope you can understand. This is not me attacking MGTOW, but disagreeing with the idea of going FULL-MGTOW. This make sense?
Ps. While I do not “enjoy” the destruction of the current marriage system (or marriage itself as an institution), there is no way to “fix” the current system without some major societal turmoil associated with it. A crisis of some sort would be required.
Why? Because Feminists have literally won every single battle from courts to the media to the legislatures. Women are over 52% of voters in every single State, while men are disenfranchised because they get jailed on false criminal accusations or inability to pay child support, for instance. Or get killed doing a dangerous job like logging, military, or whatnot, you know the jobs that enable the entire system to operate. Men simply do not have the organizational structure women have, fully-funded militant groups like NOW, PP, Indept Women’s Forum type groups, and others. They have millions of activities in mailing lists, women with tons of free time on their hands, the entire media behind them, and tons of money. Men simply cannot beat this type of organized activism and lobbying activities.
The thing is that I am a Realist and unless we have major social/economic turmoil, we simply cannot reset and fix the current “marriage crisis” we have today in The West. The system has become corrupted. Think of a PC that has been attacked by a powerful virus and the hard drives have become so corrupted, the only fix is to format and re-install the operating system. This is where we are at today.
This is why when I, a devout life-long Christian, say that we MUST de-criminalize (not legalize) prostitution in America, some Christians freak out. They do not get it. It would force a reset of the “dating” and marriage markets because you have now created an outlet for “subpar men”, whom women reject and mock. If these men can just say “ok, no problem, I will get some on the side”, these women lose THE most powerful bargaining chip they have – sex.
Christians freak out because they think this will tilt the balance of power towards men too much. And they are right, it would. 🙂 And they fear Christians would go for hookers, and of course, if they did, they would be frauds. But think about this way: booze is legal and yet I do not drink. Weed is legal in 20 States and yet I do not smoke (while living in State where it is legal). If Prostitution was de-criminalized (big difference vs legalization, which is Amsterdam. I am talking removing criminal penalties), men now have an option and that frightens women and feminists like hell.
I saw this in action in Ukraine. The dudes there have this mindset that “if she wants to leave, let her. Another women will come along.” And if not, they can always have hookers on the side. And if their woman does not. behave, they can go for a hooker while still with their woman, then putting woman in danger of diseases as well. The man have the power because he has options.
The result is that women there who want marriage or an LTR have to actually put effort to make life pleasant and happy. The men have options, many options. The women there know the most valuable asset they bring to the table (besides reproduction), sexual relief for the man, is something available everywhere, all the time, and fairly cheap. One call or one website hire and they are done for the night, so why bother with a woman or wife? See how power shifts?
Here in USA, we live in fear. Fear of being falsely accused of rape or domestic violence. Fear of arrest for going to a woman for physical needs. Fear of being divorce raped and have his kids taken away. In Ukraine, the fear is not there, which causes women to either put VALUE into the man’s life or die lonely hags or being forced into hooking themselves. The power equation is completely different.
Take a look at the women in Ukraine and compare to what we have here. Disgustingly fat hags with no make-up. One trip to Ukraine and you will see what I mean. The girls how are not hoes and want a marriage, family, husband, they are docile, hard-working, smart, not lazy, not obese, with long hair, wearing cute clothes, and feminine characteristic I cannot say enough good about their cooking and homemaking skills too. I received “horrified looks” when I explained in USA, I buy flash-frozen veggies or canned carrots, for instance (both taste great!). The girls there make everything fresh, the stay-at-home moms there do not stay home all day eating Hagen-Daaz and watching The View; no, they are at market almost daily, the house gets a cleaning weekly whether it is needed or not, and food is always there. They may be poor girls, but pink lipstick and cute red dress is always available at home. And the cooking was excellent, even if I always worry about the weak sanitary conditions of the country’s food production, since it is all “organic type” foods (not the girls fault, but still worries me sometimes).
Bottom line: we need a shock to the system, because as it is going now, marriage rates will be less than 10% in no time and without a shock to the system, there is no plausible and actionable way to legally fix this current mess in dating/marriage markets and the grossly unfair legal system. All I am saying is as Christians, do not be too quick to dismiss de-criminalization, as we have very few other options to salvage what is left of our “society”. The marriage and dating systems are collapsing, so we either short-circuit it or let it die on its own and see what comes out of that next.
I don’t really believe it makes much difference as to whether a man chooses to live a MGTOW Monk lifestyle or a PUA type lifestyle. That is his decision to make. If he is aware of the pros and cons of each and is aware of the risks, more power to him. If it seems ‘unnatural’ to you, you don’t have to choose said lifestyle.
The problem isn’t women as such but the system that empowers them to such a point that men simply have no bargaining power within a marriage. Marriage is a sham. The male’s greatest weapon is his ability to leave, to tell the woman ‘no’ and ditch her.
In the past, this meant that men needed authority within marriage to make it worth their while to enter into the agreement, for the agreement means the very end to his biggest weapon and the woman now has him by the balls. The authority given to husbands meant tempering the ability of the woman to cause problems in the marriage. Thus increasing the incentive for men to commit to marriage. Now that this authority has been removed, the man has zero power within the marriage and must give up his only bargaining chip to enter into the modern day version. A fools venture.
Feminists have made the deal so bad that it really doesn’t hold up on its own. Only by the power of tradcuckery and shame does it fool men. This is why tradcons are worse than feminists. Feminists are upfront in their hatred of men, tradcucks instead resort to shame, ridicule and traditional values to pull the wool over men’s eyes. However, both require men to continue to enter into marriage and keep society going. This is why MGTOW is a game changer. It doesn’t matter if a MGTOW is shamed, he doesn’t care. Once your mind is made up, the attempts to get you to buy into their sham are water off a duck’s back.
The system must collapse. That is the only way.
feministhater says:
June 19, 2019 at 3:57 am
Loved your words in this comment, Feministhater.
By the way: God does call men to hate so I’m glad you are bold about it in your name and in your words.
God’s rich blessings as He releases you, and other men around you, in His image created in you –already in you– heretofore suppressed by the woman.
BTW2: your comments are of the very few I take the time to read. Nothing personal about others, but yours always struck me as the rubber meeting the road.
Red Pill Christianity @ 3:19 am:
“But to go full MGTOW just seems unnatural to me. I hope you can understand. This is not me attacking MGTOW, but disagreeing with the idea of going FULL-MGTOW. This make sense?”
I recommend the term “ghosting” for what you describe. Those are the guys who check out completely.
There’s MGTOW (no marriage), MGTOW monk (no women) and MGTOW ghost (no society).
Offtopic:
Southern Baptist Convention elites infiltrate critical race theory and intersectionality into doctrine:
http://capstonereport.com/2019/06/12/breaking-sbc-elites-offer-resolution-praising-critical-race-theory-and-intersectionality/32583/
FeministHater and GunnerQ, I appreciate your explanation about the levels of MGTOW. To me, MGTOW always meant completely going “monk” so now I get what you guys mean by MGTOW being different strategies. Under your definition, I am MGTOW in some ways for sure.
The MGTOW “ghosting” seems very similar to The Black Pill, where you basically check out of society completely and live life the way you see fit, with basically zero concern for the country/society they live in and without any regard for the future. That is kind of where Heartiste is at and where Cap Capitalism seem to be at.
The Black Pill is also a possible path I see coming my way (depending on the events happening soon), although resisting it as much as I can, as I still see some hope, though it is dimming rapidly with each passing day for America. The country is headed for systematic collapse, not because of falling marriage rates or even feminism, but because we have $22 Trillion in the national debt and just added 3 million new welfare recipients to the country in 18 months that just walked across the Border and got paperwork that allows them to get work permit, SS card, and almost unlimited welfare benefits. 3 million is the total that we know of that surrendered at The Border, plus million(s) others that just “snuck in” undetected or overstayed visas. It is gonna trigger an economic collapse, we cannot afford the trillions in un-funded liabilities in SS and Medicare alone, when you throw in millions more of poor people into Medicaid, schools, Section 8 housing, food stamps, Earned Income Credit, and others, you simply collapse the system. This is know as the Cloward-Piven Strategy, to collapse the system with the “weight of the poor” to force radical Socialism upon the country. As I said before, my Black Pill moment will be if we have an illegal alien amnesty and grant voting rights to 20-30 million illegals inside the USA. That will mean someone to the left of Bernie Sanders will be the next “moderate” President with Leftist super-majorities in almost every State legislature and both houses of Congress. The country will be quickly re-made in 4 years time in ways that it will be un-recognizable by anyone over 30 years of age.
Before the country implodes on its own weight, I personally see MGTOW as one of many paths men MUST adhere to in order to force a reset of the current system. It is unsustainable. I certainly do NOT mock or demean men’s who MGTOW, as I said I have 2 friends who MGTOWed and they are the guys I actually do most stuff with, ads they have time, freedom, and cash to do fun stuff (unlike my male married/LTR friends). They just completely shun all relationships with women, get some on the side, and have a lot of cash to spend and can go on trips and all.
Like you, I also see MGTOW as an important response to feminist claims that men somehow need women desperately. No, men need women for sex and reproduction only. If there is a currency crisis, pandemic, foreign invasion, etc, men do not need women at all to survive. Women will need men to survive then. This dynamic is why so many men are indoctrinated into Chivalry, so they keep rescuing women, despite women dumping on them and treating men as 3rd class citizens with few civil rights, almost no due process inc rim in all accusations or family court situations. It is a bizarre and insane dynamic to expect men to continue to be 3rd class citizens for the sake of women’s privilege and benefit, all in name of “manning up” or Chivalry.
Thing is, FemHater, if you are hoping for a collapse of the current system, be sure of this: it will be extremely ugly if it does collapse. Read about the 2-part Roman Empire collapse and it was a horror-show for the ages. It is gonna be painful and horrific and everyone, yes everyone will be negatively affected. We would never be the country we once were, just as Italy never regained the glory of the Roman Empire. Today, the Italians get by, in a country that is poorer, divided, and unstable – a far cry from its once position of wealth and dominance in 3 continents. A nation that is destroyed by its enemies can rise again; but a nation that is destroyed from within will never be the same.
My hope is we can still reform the system and that is why I beseech Christian men to avoid marriage and to consider ways to short the system, like de-criminalizing prostitution, so we can see a male-female dynamic Moore like Ukraine, where balance of power is towards the man and society, birth rates and relationships actually function rather well, even in such a poor country.
“The Black Pill is also a possible path I see coming my way (depending on the events happening soon), although resisting it as much as I can”
You need friends and a plan to resist the Black Pill. The friends give you a reason to keep going and the plan gives you purpose. Don’t trust institutions anymore.
Friends are hard to find, though.
To me the biggest deal-breaker in marriage is not even risks or sacrifices but the fact that marriage imposes clearly defined legal obligations on me as a man, in exchange for big fat nothing. If I marry, I’m not guaranteed sex. I’m not guaranteed children. To get any of these out of marriage, you, as thedeti outlined above, must make yourself into an alpha male who gets what he wants through his own force of personality. The only guarantee against my wife whoring around I will get is that undoing the marriage will be easier on me as long as she’s stupid enough to do so openly.
And material incentives of old no longer apply. Lacking children does not mean starving to death after getting too old for hard work for most of the population anymore (until the day shit hits the fan, and my marital status certainly will not delay or hasten such day). Housework is automated to the point that everyday maintenance is casually easy. So, what is the reason to marry?
The MGTOW “ghosting” seems very similar to The Black Pill, where you basically check out of society completely and live life the way you see fit, with basically zero concern for the country/society they live in and without any regard for the future. That is kind of where Heartiste is at and where Cap Capitalism seem to be at.
Black Pillers generally forego women — the classic black pill sites are critical of Game, Red Pill and anything relating to modern women. Roissy/Heartiste certainly isn’t a Black Piller in that sense — he follows the red pill and does not forego women at all. Heartiste is a guy with a PUA background who has a political perspective that makes him not want to participate in bigger social and political movements. He isn’t a “black piller” — again, the black pill people withdraw more or less completely, and certainly from women, and they are very critical of Game, red pill and so on — which Heartiste rather obviously is not.
Red Pill Christianity writes a lot of words
tl;dr
The system must collapse. That is the only way.
It won’t. Now what?
FatR
To me the biggest deal-breaker in marriage is not even risks or sacrifices but the fact that marriage imposes clearly defined legal obligations on me as a man, in exchange for big fat nothing.
You might be somewhere in the Kubler-Ross stages of unplugging. “Despair” is one stage, and it is a bad mental state. Often leading to depression, despair will affect mental and physical health negatively. Or you might want someone to try to talk you into marriage – but that isn’t common here.
If you ever decide to take the risk, tilting the odds in your favor is not complicated. It involves mental work and physical work, and it requires a man to constantly evaluate his own mental state and that of his woman. It’s not a “set it and forget it” mode, but that really hasn’t existed for generations.
Black pilling “there is no hope, woe is me” is just wallowing in self pity. Too many MGTOW men are doing that, plus pulling other men down with them. It’s a funhouse mirror image of the still standard TradCon “just manup and MARRY THAT SLUT” approach, really it is.
Both extremes are simple minded, unthinkingly denying a lot of reality that is all around us. Fortunately most men still fall between these two extremes. it would be easier to help the normal men if the two extremes would just calm down and quit picking fights with the rest of us.
Just saying.
Gunner Q,
I have found that extremely hard to do. Connecting at that level today seems impossible for some of us.
RPL,
All the things you note go hand-in-hand with feminism and the destruction of the family, along with many other trends. Prosperity allows foolishness and that foolishness has long since taken over, even among many of those who claim to oppose it. I am not sure how long it will be until the piper has to be paid, but it will be nasty when that happens, as you noted. It is far too late to reform the system without a massive spiritual revival. That may be very hard even so, since so many Christians who would likely be involved with that have such confusing ideas about what is right and are pushing the very evil causing this, while not realizing it at all. God remains God of course and a true revival could still happen, but legalizing prostitution, for example, will not solve the core problems.
AR,
How is life in the Roman Empire working out for you? Pick any other “unchangeable” civilization for more examples. Ancient Israel (the northern kingdom) was also at its peak right before it was destroyed.
It will eventually collapse. Continually spending more than we have, importing massive numbers of people, etc. have already changed things and are not sustainable. We will collapse and it won’t be pretty. It may be well after all of us here are dead or it may be sooner. I have not idea on the timing, but the saying “what can’t continue won’t continue” remains very true.
How can you assert that the unsustainable will continue forever?
I am still not completely against marriage, but it is definitely a minefield and I would gladly help a young man understand the risks, if that young man would ever want to listen to me of course. I have not found one so far, though a neighbor seems to be a MGTOW outside the movement, so I do see those. Another person I worked with in a church (unpaid) was also 40 with no prospects for marriage.
The risks are huge, especially if you get nabbed when a woman gets baby rabies. Even doing all the right things is likely to lead to trouble, since society, churches and almost everyone will undermine your authority and role every chance they get. That is completely outside your control.
“Be perfect” is not a good answer to that. Adam was perfect (contrary to some foolish teaching I have heard) and Eve still went astray.
BillyS
How is life in the Roman Empire working out for you?
Don’t live there.
It will eventually collapse.
“Eventually” the Sun will go nova. I’m not worrying much.
How can you assert that the unsustainable will continue forever?
“Forever” is a long time. Longer than any of us can expect to live, for now. I don’t recall using that word, either. But I see nothing to suggest that “the system” will crash in the next 10 years, so what should men be doing? Twiddling their thumbs waiting for the crash, or useful things?
Waiting for “the reset” is pointless. Plus, given that a hard systemic crash would likely result in tens of millions of dead people, if not more, it’s really nothing to be hoping for – especially for religious people (fans of Anton LaVey excepted).
BillyS
“Be perfect” is not a good answer to that.
But it is a strawman fallacy.
A man must live his life as he sees fit.
If this continues forever, great, I get to live out my life in freedom and peace. Not much more I could ask for.
You guys fix it.
AR,
You are the one asserting that the current system won’t collapse. The Roman Empire (and others) did not last nearly any time at all compared to the time until the sun goes nova. That is a false argument.
I am not waiting for any reset myself. I don’t expect it in time to do anything good for me. If the worst happens I will probably go quickly, so that is not great either. I am just working at figuring out how to connect with other men of similar thoughts and having a very hard time doing that. Hard flying solo, but that is my only option.
“Be perfect” is what the advice to having a good wife stay faithful basically boils down to. It is a very tough situation out there and few acknowledge it. I am not predisposed to it, but I am finding FH’s position to be more accurate than those who strongly push other solutions.
feministhater:
if you dont object, Id like to correspond. I like the cut of your jib.
GunnerQ, I think we have different views of what “taking the Black Pill” mean. To me, I understand the Black Pill to be stop caring and just enjoy the decline. That means to live focus on oneself, yes, caring about God still, but understanding the economic and social collapse of The West is almost certain.
Blue Pill = Blissful ignorance until you suffer consequences of being oblivious
Red Pill = Accept truth and make improvements to work around barriers/system
Black Pill = Enjoy the decline and ignore society/politics/non-friends and non-relatives. Focus solely on self; does not mean becoming hermit. It means a selfish existence
Thankfully, I have a big group of friends to prevent me from becoming a Hermit in some shack in the woods. lol Matter of fact I have 2 MGTOW friends and they stopped watching news completely and stopped caring completely (which I consider to be a Black Pill move, but I do not associate that so much with MGTOW). They are in for themselves only, and yet they go out, have a good time, have friends, have jobs, one has a business, actually and these guys seem to have a lot of cash savings. They are prepared for trouble (one of the two is, at least) and if trouble comes, they are in for themselves and close friends and family only. They simply stopped caring about the country or having kids. They do not care about society as a whole anymore. That is my idea of Black Pill, not becoming a Hermit.
Both the MGTOW guys I know, they refuse to have any relationships with women, no friendships with women, and they prefer to deal with guys only at work or social settings. Like they want to sit in male-server tables at restaurants, for example, which I find excessive, but they are adamant about it. One of these guys actually refuses to even address women they do not want to try to hook-up with. I told him that is like Muslim, maybe he should convert. LOL And both the guys only will go after some woman in their own time, under their own terms. And they get annoyed with me sometimes because I will approach some girl if opportunity arises, but they think I am wasting time and get annoyed at that because they think “the juice is not worth the squeeze”.
But sometimes the juice IS worth the squeeze. But they still get annoyed. But that is MGTOW life, I guess and I am not totally on board with going that far. lol But I do respect the ideology and benefits that come with it, of course, one being cash savings and total free time freedom. It is awesome.
BillyS
You are the one asserting that the current system won’t collapse.
I responded to a long wall of text tersely to make a point.
For all practical purposes, I’m right. You can point to all manner of financial, legal and social problems but many of those problems have been around for 10, 20, 30, 50 or more years, and there’s no “reset” in sight. Therefore, sitting around saying that nothing can be done until there’s a “reset” is like telling everyone to quit their job and go sit on a hill to wait for the end of the world.
In my extended family I can find people who were sure that the 2008 crash was the beginning of the “reset”, others who were convinced that Y2K was going to be the trigger, others who were sure back in 1987 that market crash was the onset of the second Great Depression, some who are no longer alive but who were sure when Nixon took the US off of the gold standard that “it” was happening, and so forth and so on back to Woodrow Wilson.
Every one of them was wrong.
The Roman Empire (and others) did not last nearly any time at all compared to the time until the sun goes nova.
They lasted longer than most people expected. That’s the point. Living now in the expectation that social collapse is just around the corner is foolish.
I am not waiting for any reset myself.
Then what are you arguing with me about?
I am just working at figuring out how to connect with other men of similar thoughts and having a very hard time doing that. Hard flying solo, but that is my only option.
I have great sympathy for your situation, but don’t see how it connects to social collapse as a “cure” for current social ills.
“Be perfect” is what the advice to having a good wife stay faithful basically boils down to.
No, that’s not even true. You know better than to write something like this. A man doesn’t have to be perfect, he has to be good enough – for any given woman / situation. Plus on days when he doesn’t quite deal with the fitness test correctly, when he is too tired to swat down a display of temper, etc. there is always tomorrow, because marriage isn’t 9-inning baseball game, it’s a long term campaign.
It is a very tough situation out there and few acknowledge it.
There’s not a single site where men can discuss the tough situation, really? Come on, Billy, you know better than that – you’re here. This is the place.
Take care.
Annon Reader, no one is just sitting around waiting for a coming collapse. I am personally not looking forward to it, unlike some people. I have lived in a failed country before and I tell ya, it was bad, even if we were foreigners with Dollars to spend.
A social/marriage/gender relationship collapse will NOT (repeat “not”) going to happen in a “crash and burn” sudden swoop. It will take years, likely decades to happen. It will be a process where marriage rates drop to hopefully less than 10% and then some in the political classes will begin to wonder why.
Sadly, the real solution to this problem has to be legislative and judicial. We have to change the absurd levels of risk for men only and unless that happens, government-sanctioned marriage and children co-owned with govt is simply not an option for Red Pilled men.
My suggested solution to short circuit the dating/LTR system (decriminalization of prostitution) is indeed controversial with Christians and Feminists alike. Both Christians and feminists oppose decriminalization feverishly, which tells me something. That this solution will shift a lot of power towards men, as I personally saw in effect in Ukraine just 3 weeks ago. Don’t get me wrong, this idea has serious risks, but at this point, men are largely short of ideas to fix this mess and repealing the 19th Amendment will never, ever happen, so my solution is much more plausible. Bernie, Kamala, and Warren are all supporting this idea already, which sucks, as I despise all 3 with the intensity of 1000 suns.
Now…
The collapse I am talking about is going to be economic and intra-social. No society or world region, in human history has ever had such a large influx of poor, violent, un-educated, illiterate, and un-skilled people just invade into its territory before, without any impediment. And then these same invaders begin terrorize local populations with crime and become such drains on local resources (school, hospital education) and national resources (welfare, section * housing, food stamps, and others) at this level.
In a country with $22 Trillion in debt, racing past Greece levels of debt-to-GDP ratios, and an unstable societal structure, it is like begging for social strive and even violence. If we have a currency crisis, everyone who holds our currency will lose tremendously. The type of social unrest it will cause will be massive and unlike the Great Depression, when we had a cohesive society, we live in a hyper-polarized, dysfunctional country.
That economic and fiscal collapse is coming. And soon. We just added 3 million new welfare recipients in the last 18 months, whom will pay $0 in taxes and are getting tens of thousands a year in direct welfare + free education, free medical care, free schools, free roads, free social services. These people are living large, do not believe the sob stories in the media.
Talk about a ticking clock here. A social/marriage collapse? Nah, that will be decades in the making before it collapses. By then, no one will care. We will be all too bust barricading our homes from invaders, worrying about whether or not we will be shot while putting groceries in our car or worried if our kids will be forced into a gang or gangraped in a bathroom by a gang. You will be totally focused on your own personal economic situation and safety to give a dam about marriage or whatever.
This is not some movie scenario or something far off into the future. It is already happening in communities across the country, just check out the high “refugee” cities of Portland, Maine and Idaho Falls. Malmo Sweden is another one. These formerly nice places are descending into total chaos and social unrest. Preview of what is to come.
RedPillChristain
Sadly, the real solution to this problem has to be legislative and judicial.
Won’t happen. Now what?
My suggested solution to short circuit the dating/LTR system (decriminalization of prostitution) is indeed controversial with Christians and Feminists alike.
Not gonna happen. Now what?
You write a lot of words, describing bad things, and offer no actionable suggestions.
What’s your point / purpose here?
AnonReader:
If you are too lazy to read what others wrote, do not comment on such posts, it is that simple. Just because you post something snappy without evidence or coherence does not mean everyone else should follow that standard. Some of us have higher intellectual standards.
If marriage in-equality against men cannot be fixed legislatively or judiciously, then:
1) Men should be aware of that before considering marriage;
2) Men should avoid marriage altogether;
3) Men who are married should consider this before divorce and to gauge the amount of effort they will be forced to put to keep their marriages going (be it romanticized love or not);
4) Gives more credence to men going MGTOW (I am not MGTOW, but this further reinforces their lifestyle and point of view).
Prostitution is already being considered for decriminalization in NY State right now (June 2019) and 3 candidates of a major political party running for President are pushing for either full legalization or de-criminalization (Senators Warren, Booker, and Sanders – all 3 with full voting rights in the US Senate). You sound like the reality-denialists who said “weed would never be legalized for recreation in any US State” and then Colorado did it months later and now 20 States did it as well.
You really should do a little more research before spouting off uninformed opinions.
What is my point being here, you ask? To have a discussion with fellow Christians about Red Pill issues associated with Christianity. Intellectual discussions are stimulating and help develop solutions to problems and to create consensus around problems and solutions to what Christians face today. Think of this as a Christian Town Hall.
Since you brought up the question: what is YOUR purpose here, besides insulting numerous other commenters here?