One of the core strategies of complementarians is downplaying the importance of the feminist rebellion that defines our age, if not outright pretending that it isn’t happening. This is so common no one notices it, but once you spot the pattern it is truly striking.
For an example of this in practice see Pastor Tim Bayly’s post Revoice and faithful pastoral care (3): is it really about sex, or marriage… Bayly makes a forceful argument that Christian men and women with same sex attraction should nevertheless marry and focus their sexual desire within (heterosexual) marriage. After making this case, he asks why Christian leaders aren’t encouraging this:
Why are pastors and elders not regularly saying to gays and lesbians who burn what the Apostle Paul said to gays and lesbians who burned in his own time, that it is better to marry than to burn. In other words, why aren’t pastors and church officers commanding those men and women who talk about their homosexual lusts to marry and raise up a godly seed for the Lord?
His conclusion is that this isn’t happening because Christian leaders aren’t willing to hold anyone to account (emphasis original):
Why don’t we repeat the Apostle Paul’s command to them, telling them to marry?
Pastoral care is dead…
I’m not sure about this, but I suspect the reason we avoid these conversations is that we never have any conversations like this with anyone in the church. We never warn from house to house, day and night with tears as the Apostle Paul did. If we don’t probe into heterosexual softness and laziness and irresponsibility, why would we probe into, let alone admonish, homosexual softness and laziness and irresponsibility.
So far, Pastor Bayly’s argument is truly counter-cultural. But then he shifts gears into complementarian orthodoxy. The real problem he explains is we aren’t willing to call out Christian men (emphasis mine):
In the church today, it is allee-allee-in-free with every form of sin, but no sin as much as effeminacy. Guys refuse to work. Guys change jobs all the time. Guys play video games in their parents’ basement, refusing to court anyone or leave home. Guys who are married use condoms or get snipped. Guys buy toys they go off and play with on weekends. Guys don’t love their wives or children. Guys aren’t intimate with their wives and children. Guys look at strange flesh and masturbate. Guys primp in front of the mirror. Guys spend their wealth and time primping their hair. Guys work out in the gym, then parade their obviously artificial muscles. Guys are narcissists and avoid responsibility like the plague.
Guys are effeminate—we’re all gay.
This is the complementarian lie. It is pure nonsense. Aside from his complaints about men pumping iron to create “artificial” muscles, and men using contraception, everything on his list is boilerplate. These are the sins nearly every Christian movie focuses on, because criticizing these sins is an easy crowd pleaser.
Moreover, everyone but complementarians acknowledges that our society has been transformed to allow and encourage women to dress like and act like men, but we still have (relatively) tight restrictions on what is appropriate for a man. For women this transformation has been so complete it is truly difficult for a woman to cross the line. Even conservatives cheer on ball busting butch women. But thankfully we still discourage men from being effeminate, despite a concerted push to change the way we think about the topic.
Why are feminists honest about the topic while complementarians pretend the opposite has happened? The reason is complementarians are terrified of telling women no. Calling out a fellow man feels good, and is easy. Calling out women is hard and feels awful. It is human nature to shirk what is painful and difficult, and instead do what is easy and enjoyable.
The disturbing thing is Pastor Bayly knows what is going on here. Back in 2002 he was a principle author of a PCA statement on women in combat. The committee couldn’t bring itself to tell Christian women that they should not put on the garb of a warrior, nor could it bring itself to tell women there were any combat roles they should not seek. Instead, the committee declared that the real problem was men forcing women into combat:
AREAS OF AGREEMENT AND DISAGREEMENT
The dearth of men ready to serve their country in defense of their wives and children is a concern shared by our entire committee.
There is no other way to put this: The statement quoted above is a bald faced lie. What was really happening was feminists were pushing for all male fields to be opened to women, with a liberal application of affirmative action. This was entirely open, over the course of decades. The same thing was happening in the military that happened in NFL locker rooms and police and fire departments. Women weren’t reluctantly filling the slots men refused to fill. They were shoving their way into male spaces. No one but complementarians denies this, and all but the most rabid complementarians have to be ashamed to have uttered this lie. They may as well claim that the recent feminist movies Wonder Woman and Ghost Busters aren’t feminist propaganda, but proof that male actors are refusing to play lead roles.
But the lie is common, which is the whole point. When women sinned in an unavoidably public way complementarians responded by:
- Not calling it sin. Women who serve are after all heroic.
- Blaming men for the sin complementarians weren’t even willing to acknowledge was a sin!
The irony is that in his post on encouraging gays to marry, Pastor Bayly complained about Christians being too squeamish to confront sin; to prove the point he then followed the exact same pattern!
Pastor Bayly does not always shy away from calling out women who take on men’s roles. As I’ve noted previously he recognizes that women are trying to push their way into leadership in the church, and no one wants to tell them no. Likewise, in this post he encouraged women to wear headcoverings in church, and wrote of the problem of:
…masculinity in women (taking leadership and authority, working out, getting ripped, teaching men, playing soldier, playing cop, playing pastor, being brash).
Pastor Bayly is all but alone when he does this, and this is the problem with his claim that Christian leaders are (of all sins) most unwilling to confront Christian men becoming effeminate. It simply isn’t true. Christian leaders do this all the time, even when the charge is false. What Christian leaders are (as a group) unwilling to confront is the very spirit of our age, women coveting to become men.
Religious leaders telling bald-faced lies is common. A few of us were discussing this the last few days in a different thread. Or see the religious leaders from 2000 years ago, who engaged the services of false witnesses in their official trial of Jesus.
The father of lies is their father.
This post reminded me of the double-standard many pastors use to discuss issues concerning men and women.
I sit on the board of a “conservative” Bible church, and I’ve noticed this double-standard, especially from one of the pastors during meetings. When discussing an issue concerning an unfaithful spouse, he will state that the man has committed adultery; but when its a woman who is unfaithful she is said to be making bad decisions. Often these bad decisions are excused because of the tremendous burden she has been under during her marriage.
What’s really sad about it is how many of the other meeting attendees will approve the blatant double standard by lowering and shaking their head while frowning. The body language communicates acceptance of the double-standard and deep sadness that the man has caused all of these problems for his wife. This is no way to minister to marriages. It is a recipe for destroying them.
… and I wish it was difficult for Dalrock to find these examples. Instead, these are the standard narrative, as he correctly writes.
Matt 15:8-9:
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
What? If he’d written “guys inject themselves with synthol, then parade their obviously artificial muscles”, that statement would’ve made sense. I don’t think the word “artificial” means what Pastor Bayly thinks it means.
I made this observation to a friend this weekend: how many women in church are there due to social pressures, as opposed to actually knowing what they believe? I asked because there is pure cognitive dissonance in what they say, versus what I see them do (especially online)
Shaming men but not shaming women?
Apparently they realize that you can only use shame as a method of control, with people who would actually feel shame (men), and not on those who have no shame and always blame everyone else for their failings (women).
I have yet to visit a church, in my life, where working out was a problem with the men. Bayly is on crack
I’ve added more to the bottom of the post. Pastor Bayly does at times acknowledge that women are usurping men’s roles. He is all but alone in this regard. This is what makes the lie that Christian leaders are afraid to call out gender bending among men so striking.
Off Topic: It’s 4Chan vs. the Cam Girls!
https://pjmedia.com/trending/fed-up-gamers-report-intrusive-sex-workers-to-the-irs-for-tax-evasion/
Truth isn’t just stranger than fiction. Sometimes it’s funnier, too!
Pastor Bayly – Let’s worry about the symptoms and not the root cause. Weight lifting, porn, MGTOW, video games, weed wouldn’t exist in the same way today if it wasn’t for women walking away from femininity.
I love the inversion. “Being strong, lifting weights, banging chicks is gay.” Ok.
Modern Cucktianity pastors in America are generally shameless panderers and hypocrites. Dal always nails it, they pander to women and shame fellow men because it feels good. I have been taking my kids to a mainstream Methodist Church for years and although our pastor is certainly a good man and a very likeable and well-spoken guy, the whole feminazi doctrine and pro-gay stuff has infected his sermons as well as the type of people joining our congregation over time. I have started experimenting taking my sons to old school Roman Catholic services and even Eastern Orthodox services. It is hard to find truly conservative doctrine preached and adhered to in this rotten culture, but going to keep trying here for the sake of the kids in particular!
Damn Crackers, you are definitely right on all the way. I have called women out on their lack of feminity bordering on total Butch dykehood, even for ostensibly straight girls in real life, but it usually barely registers: they are too far gone and these are the women we are stuck with in this country; they won’t change and they aren’t going anywhere.
I have no idea what “allie-allie-in-free” means, but I think he meant to say: “Alle, alle auch sind frei”, “Everyone, everyone also is free”.
Most women don’t truly have faith in God, they seem to join for the social grouping/female herd aspect more than anything else. The more female “leadership” infests churches, the more degenerate and morally unhinged they become over time: fact. Even with the revolting pedo priest problem, at least the Catholics have not (yet) wavered on the insane idea of letting females into the clergy. The current pope is a joke, though and he and his cronies should be ousted.
Dalrock
The reason is complementarians are terrified of telling women no.
Well, sure, because complimentarianism itself is a compromise that was made rather than telling women NO. One would hardly expect a group that founded itself in the spirit of surrender to the Female Imperative would ever get around to actually resisting the FI.
A man who has been failing fitness tests from his wife for years would look a lot like a Complementarian. “Can’t we just get along? I’m nice to you, why can’t you be nice to me?” The androsphere has more than one site where a man can learn why that fails consistently.
But the Baby Boom pastors can’t even get the basics right. Always the appeasement of women and the attacks against men; it is a form of pedestalization, of putting “Wonderful Women” up to be worshipped.
Not all Baby Boom Pastors Are Like That, but there sure are a whole lot of them out there.
Inside the operation to push women into combat roles (h/t Steve Sailer):
http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/changing-the-%E2%80%9Cmacho%E2%80%9D-male-culture-of-the-us-military
Required reading.
Lexet Blog says:
November 26, 2018 at 11:54 am
I have yet to visit a church, in my life, where working out was a problem with the men. Bayly is on crack
******************************************************************************************
That’s so true. My Church could benefit from most of the guys listing weights and shutting their pie-holes. I swear, I’ve never seen so many fat, out of shape beta guys as I do at Church. And based on all the donuts and cokes I see them sell, they encourage low testosterone and gyocomastia.
@ Damn Crackers:
Let’s worry about the symptoms and not the root cause. Weight lifting, porn, MGTOW, video games, weed wouldn’t exist in the same way today if it wasn’t for women walking away from femininity.
Women walk away from femininity which has the effect of men walking away from choosing one woman and taking responsibility for her. And I think this is what Pastor Bayly is saying here. Men who won’t shoulder responsibility are effeminate wimps. Gay.
I love the inversion. “Being strong, lifting weights, banging chicks is gay.” Ok.
He’s talking about the excessive concern with physical appearance (weightlifting), vanity, self-absorption, self centeredness, getting sex/attention is everything, and spending leisure time on frivolities like video games and expensive toys. He’s saying these are all characteristics of gay men. They’re characteristics of immature boys and effeminate men. Men who… act like women.
Well, I missed this little gem the first time through.
Bayly
This is not just false, it is easy to demonstrate that it is false. It is trivial to find a church where men’s bad behavior (“uses porn” “ignores family” “too much sports” “etc.) is routinely condemned. Entire Father’s Day sermons are dedicated to this exercise. Therefore, either Bayly is profoundly ignorant of what actually happens in US churches or he is lying. Either way he is not qualified to comment on the current culture. Because ignorance is disqualifying, and so is lying.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ve heard it before; “oh, he’s just exaggerating for effect, to make a point”.
No. He is lying. He is a liar. He lies.
Does the PCA have any doctrinal statement regarding lying, I wonder? Is it OK for pastors in the PCA to engage in lying “but just to make a point”?
Irony: Baby Boomer pastor of the “don’t trust anyone over 30” generation lying as part of religious advice.
Finally, I wonder why Pastor Bayly is opposed to men exercising their bodies to improve health and increase circulating Testosterone? What’s his actual agenda? Does he want men to be sick and weak?
Eh. There is no point in asking a liar to explain himself, because anything he says could be just another lie…
I don’t understand why Tim Bayly still lays down complementarian dogma. He walked away from that outfit and said at the time that complementarians were wrong and that the CBMW should disband.
As to the standard package of their failings – “guys” do what they’re incentivized to do. Make it worth the effort O’ Complementarian pastors.
@thedeti – If Bayly wants to play God by trying to shame men into marrying those sluts (like God ordered Hosea to do), then it’s not something I want to listen to.
I don’t understand why Tim Bayly still lays down complementarian dogma. He walked away from that outfit and said at the time that complementarians were wrong and that the CBMW should disband.
Because he, like most other pastors and men in today’s church, is terrified of offending women. He is terrified of the very bad optics – big bad famous mean pastor beating up on women, the “backbone” of the church, the ones who do 90% of the volunteering and the cookie baking and the Sunday School teaching and the bulletin printing and the cooking and cleaning and visiting the shutins and the elderly and the disabled for the church and… and… and…..
Because he knows what will happen if he starts calling out men. First, the women of the church will demand meetings with his overseers, questioning whether he has the “gifts and graces” to shepherd this flock. Then will come letter writing campaigns. Then calling the media. Did you hear what that pastor said??!! OMG OMG the BRUTE! The HEATHEN! The BIG BAD MEANIE!” He is just being mean to women!
Then the names. Misogynist. The labels. Unfit to pastor. Lacks the capacity and sensitivity to shepherd a flock.
Because he saw what happened to Paige Patterson.
Because his overseers and church elders will bow to pressure when the women start leaving the church in droves, dragging their hapless beta husbands and their tithe checks with them.
All because he said something that made the girls mad.
And Pastor Bayly will no longer be “Pastor” Bayly. He’ll be out of a job. As would just about any other pastor who called out women for anything.
Should be “He knows what will happen if he starts calling out women. Proofread fail.
I mean, think about it. What if Bayly had called out women by writing something like this:
In the church today, it is allee-allee-in-free with every form of sin, but no sin as much as vanity and promiscuity. Girls refuse to learn domestic skills. Girls change their hairstyles all the time. Girls mooch and freeload off their parents, refusing to work or leave home. Girls have indiscriminate promiscuous sex with men outside of marriage. Some girls murder the products of those couplings through abortion. Girls who are married are harridans, abusive to their husbands, and refuse sex. Girls waste money on worthless things. Girls don’t love their husbands or children. Girls aren’t intimate with their husbands and children. Girls cheat on their husbands and cheat their husbands out of what is rightfully theirs. Girls primp in front of the mirror. Girls spend their wealth and time primping their hair. GIrls take selfies while in various states of undress or in duckfaces, and then parade their obviously artificial lives on social media. Girls are vain, shallow vapid, superficial, and immature, and avoid responsibility like the plague.
Can you imagine the hue and cry? Pastor Bayly would lose his job by the end of the day. He would be roundly criticized, skewered and eviscerated from all quarters for at least 2 weeks. Every minister, blogger and feminist would denounce him. Beth Moore and Sheila Gregoire would need fainting couches and smelling salts. InsanityBytes would fly into an internet rage. The furor would be intense, unrelenting, and overpowering, and would not stop until Bayly and anyone who supported him was utterly destroyed.
Note how tempting it is for men to respond to Bayly’s accusation by pointing out that the things he mentioned aren’t “effeminate”, or by pointing out that even if those things were “effeminate” it still isn’t the root cause. I suspect that’s exactly the response Bayly was hoping for: he score points with conservative women, he gets away with his lie and now the conversation is about “effeminate-ness”.
I STRONGLY suggest you read Rachel Held Evans. She is a Christian feminist who attacks “complentarianism” as well as female submission.
“artificial muscles” LOL
Let’s see the Right Rev Bayly take on a gymbro who has ‘artificial’ muscles from squatting three times his bodyweight, or benching twice it. What a dipsh*t comment. If he’d said that in a church I was in, I’d have laughed in his face.
Nothing artificial about muscles from lifting. Perhaps he should lift a bar every once in a while…he might like it.
And this, dear gentlemen, is why one goes MGTOW. You cannot fix this. Let it burn like the California flames!
I think Pastor Tim Bayly has a point in counseling gay men to get married because the article suggests that gay men are capable of having heterosexual sex. I think it would be appropriate for Pastor Tim Bayley through his Revoice ministry / conference to match up gay men with lesbian women and encourage them to get married. Problem is solved.
Perhaps he should lift a bar every once in a while…he might like it.
The only ‘bar’ he lifts is his ridiculous standards for men.
Once again you got it feministhater. Fire purifies. This entire system needs to burn. There’s no fixing it.
I mean look at where we are? Some nutcase “pastor” saying muscles are artificial? Which is funny btw because “real alpha men” think that since I’m a MGTOW all I do is eat Cheetos and play video games (I do neither of these things). I go to the gym all the time. I just having nothing to do with these nutcase cunts these days. Meanwhile we now have another “man” telling us that lifting weights creates “artificial muscle”. What? Everyone thinks they’re the only “real man” in the room. It’s so hilarious.
Sometimes this shit is still annoying because of how repetitive and stupid it all is but at the same time it’s gotten so comical that it’s become a joke. It’s actually entertaining at times. People have gotten so insane that no one would have even imagined this shit in the most over the top parody back in the day.
Guys are effeminate—we’re all gay.
Yesssirreeee Bob! THIS will get the “missing” guys back into church! Its like honey to bees, I tell ya!
thedeti
I take your point and am 100% certain it would play out that way if Bayly tried to reverse the admonitions. I guess what I’m really wondering is why any of those pastors can’t skip the bashing altogether? Don’t call out women for anything – too dangerous – I get that; but Bayly, and all of them retain the option to not call out men’s failings either.
They have the platform to boost all these people publicly, to include encouraging the men and women to regard one another in a better light. “I’m grateful for the men of this church”. “Look at all the wonderful things they do for The Kingdom of God and for our assemblage (followed by a list)”. “Not all churches have such a strong cadre of men to lead the way and watch over their fellow believers, etc.” Just go ahead and ascribe to them anything that smacks of doing it right, based on whatever has been seen or heard to even come close to those things. Praise those poor s.o.b.s for what they’re trying to do, and give them a leg up.
Those pastors don’t have to call out women at all, but why can’t they advocate for their men? They could make that the background drumbeat instead of “man up”.
There should be a leadership school for pastors.
That last part doesn’t even make sense. Like, does he not know what “gay” means.
I mean look at where we are? Some nutcase “pastor” saying muscles are artificial?
*******************************************
Why aren’t these pastors calling out the women with artificial boobs?
Why not use vinegar while we’re at it, that will surely help catch the flies.
Pingback: Won’t someone call out the weight lifters? | Reaction Times
Like Doug Wilson, Bayly speaks out of both sides of his mouth.
It’s a sad reality that we will likely never hear a pastor go full on with this. They won’t have jobs (as others have pointed out). You simply CANNOT be honest with regards to women and survive as a church leader. Men? No problem. Women? You better not cross THAT line.
Wilson and Bayly come about as close as you’ll find, but they are simply not allowed to go all in.
@TMAC
Worse than the selective silence is the lie that the opposite of reality is in fact what is going on.
“I STRONGLY suggest you read Rachel Held Evans. She is a Christian feminist who attacks “complentarianism” as well as female submission.”
LOL. I think this “John P. Scott” also trolled Heartiste with a “read Rachel Held Evans” comment recently. Evans is the worst. She is a pure “Christian” Leftist “smash the patriarchy” harpie. She mocks the Bible at every turn. https://eternity-matters.com/2016/08/06/with-rachel-held-evans-as-the-author-you-can-judge-a-book-by-the-cover/
To think that anyone needs to read her works is a joke.
“Guys primp in front of the mirror. Guys spend their wealth and time primping their hair. Guys work out in the gym, then parade their obviously artificial muscles. Guys are narcissists and avoid responsibility like the plague.”
These are the guys that get dates today while the nice Christian Betas get nothing but AMOG’ing from the tradcon pastor stuck in 1950. I looked up a picture of this pastor and he needs to go to the gym because it’s obvious the only exercise he’s getting is shoveling doughnuts into his mouth.
thedeti,
Pastors don’t see it. I am in counseling with a pastor and his wife is present (as a witness). I am not making this up:
Pastor: Husband what seems to be going on?
Me: she wants my opinion but shouts at me when I give it, if I don’t give it, she shouts at me.
Pastor: wife, how does it make you feel when husband shouts at you when you give your opinion?
Pastor: what is making decisions like in your home?
Me: it has to be her way.
Pastor: does it upset you that you don’t have a say in the decision making? Do you feel like a door mat?
Asked what authority looks like and he says…. Love. What? He said the whole Jesus washing feet.
I asked if Jesus ever corrected the apostles. He was livid to the point of standing up. He said I was bitter. I said only when in the moment which is every 24-48 hours. I told him it was right for me to defend myself.
He asks my wife if it’s like walking on egg shales. Lol.
THEY. DON’T. SEE. IT.
ALL of the men at this church are fat or doughy except myself and my son. One of pastors son’s who is in college is thin and the other is a swimmer, but he is getting bigger by the year and is obese himself. YP is married, but looks like he walked out of 36 hour shift at a men only brothel.
Feel bad saying all this, but every church I have attended in the last 15 years has been like this. The one thing going is that I know the Pastor cares and he truly loves people and the Lord. Just has a modern thought bent on men bad, women good.
jeff:
Pastors are terrified of offending women. during your counseling sessions, your wife is the most powerful person in that room.
Try reading the “wives, submit” passages to your pastor and ask what he thinks about them. Try it sometime. The false theology that has sprung up around those scriptures is astonishing. Pastors engage in ridiculous theological contortions and gymnastics to avoid the plain meaning of the words. “Husbands, love your wives” means what it says, but “wives, submit to your husbands” cannot possibly mean what it says.
Because we cannot handle offending wives and telling them to submit. Because we all cannot handle the word “submit”. Because today in 2018 America, “wives, submit” means “wives, become doormats and give up all your rights and allow your husband to beat and abuse you”. Because in 2018 America, to “submit” means to become a nonperson, a nonentity, to have no rights, to have no liberty. And maximum individual freedom means no one ever has to submit to anyone. Especially, women never ever have to submit to men. Ever. Especially daughters to fathers, and wives to husbands.
It is disgusting to see a pastor discourage strength training. It is the best form of fitness, especially as you age. Nothing against running, but you don’t need to be able to run for an hour straight, but being strong is always good.
If you love your family, you’ll want to minimize their burdens. One of the ways to do that is to maintain your own health the best you can.
And as a 55 yr. old who has lifted for over 40 years, I assure you that wives notice and appreciate it.
Speak for yourself pastor boy.
I did my squats and leg lifts today. Felt great to build some more artifical muscle.
@KnobSlobRob
I have called women out on their lack of feminity bordering on total Butch dykehood, even for ostensibly straight girls in real life, but it usually barely registers: they are too far gone and these are the women we are stuck with in this country
Dalrock had an article (“Interviewing a wife part II” I think) where he suggests that if a woman cannot find the kind of man she wants where she is, that she move.
In my case, I had to go to another continent. I agree that the women in North America are mostly useless for a Biblical marriage. Other women exist however.
And no, I do not yet have a 20-year marriage, so a handful of salt is required.
“Even conservatives cheer on ball busting butch women.”
This reminded me of how conservatives lauded Martha McSally as a “kickass” female fighter pilot during her senate campaign. Beyond being a “strong” woman in the military, she had a number of other unfeminine characteristics that made me uncomfortable with her (in addition to running a poor campaign): she is childless, divorced, was married only 2 years to a fellow Air Force officer (under somewhat dubious circumstances), and brought a lawsuit against the Dept. of Defense regarding military dress code in Saudi Arabia. Not at all quiet, submissive, and feminine.
In her concession video (filmed on her sofa with her dog), I felt sorry for her: here was 50-something tradcon woman, in her moment of defeat, surrounded by her entire family: her dog. No children. No loving husband. That video did a good job representing her as the “dog lady” equivalent to cat ladies.
And yet, defeat is not final for the warrior woman! She is expected to be appointed to the senate seat that will be vacated by Jon Kyl in January. Arizona, once a bastion of conservatism, would be represented in the Senate by two women who are feminists, unmarried, childless, and unfeminine, with at least one being asexual/bisexual/non-heterosexual.
For that matter, what’s happened to my broader part of the country (CA, NV, AZ)? All 6 senators will be feminist women, 4 of which are childless (Harris, Cortez Masto, Sinema, McSally) and 2 of which have exactly one child each (Feinstein, Rosen). It is shocking how the West is increasingly becoming governed by childless women – women who have avoided their primary biological and relational directive in life. In Europe we have Merkel, May, and Sturgeon, and now in America we have our own group, some of which plan to make serious presidential runs.
Makes me want to join you guys in Texas, where at least I’d have Texas Ted as my senator.
On Sunday the priest (properly) encouraged the children to listen to their earthly fathers when they attempted to teach their children the paths of God (vs. the world). Even said that the parents were often the only one’s teaching the children Christianity at all these days (and that the schools would often oppose Dad’s Christian teaching).
Good stuff – right?
The unspoken problem – the priest has over the years spent portions of dozens of homilies in undercutting the authority of these same fathers, leaving the listening audience with the less than openly spoken belief that the Pater has no business telling anyone, anything.
Destroy the authority of a human father – and then wonder why their children openly disregard his teachings. Also note how few who disregard their earthly fathers hold the teachings of the Heavenly Father in high regard (crickets).
These modern teachers just wanted to leaven Christianity with just a little bit of Rousseau/Leftism to make it more palatable to the womenz and enlarge the franchise. And oupsey-daisy they acidently overthrew the entire structure of Christianity and western civiliation. Thats some kind of un-intended evil by these (oft Baby Boomer) guides.
Eternity Matters
It is disgusting to see a pastor discourage strength training. It is the best form of fitness, especially as you age.
Any exercise is good. Walking 30 min / day for 5 days per week has many benefits.
However, strength training reduces or even eliminates depression; helps avoid metabolic syndrome / Type II diabetes / increases T and therefore improves a man’s quality of thinking and quality of life.
Diabetes, coronary artery disease, depression are all bad things. Why does Pastor Bayly want men to suffer with such conditions? Or is he so low-T that he’s like a woman in his ability to not understand cause and effect?
@Badman,
She didn’t win but we could include Amy McGrath in the list too: https://amymcgrathforcongress.com
Quick, who is the mom and who is the dad in this picture: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/594516cd2cba5e0fcda7a240/5ab103088a922d6ee3c49ace/5ab1036888251bfd94a70049/1521550347087/FullSizeRender+copy.jpeg
For that matter, what’s happened to my broader part of the country (CA, NV, AZ)? All 6 senators will be feminist women, 4 of which are childless (Harris, Cortez Masto, Sinema, McSally) and 2 of which have exactly one child each (Feinstein, Rosen)….
I can’t say what has happened, but I can say with certainty what will happen…look to Sweden.
It is shocking how the West is increasingly becoming governed by childless women
It is highly problematic, as millennials say.
Because these old girls have No Skin In The Game…like aging thots, but with less fashion sense.
Last week I recco’d Edward Bernays Propaganda and even though I have not yet finished it I urge men to add Skin in the game by Talib (author of “The Black Swan” and “Antifragile”) to reading lists.
What? If he’d written “guys inject themselves with synthol, then parade their obviously artificial muscles”, that statement would’ve made sense. I don’t think the word “artificial” means what Pastor Bayly thinks it means.
What he’s saying is that the gym is artificial. So if you have muscles because you lift heavy things all day for a living, that’s ok in his mind, but if you work a desk and go to the gym and lift so that you look like you lift things for a living, that’s “artificial”. Still dumb, but there is a kind of dumb logic to it.
Novaseeker
What he’s saying is that the gym is artificial.
So is insulin. So is a pacemaker. So is a coronary bypass. So is an arterial astent. So is a metal hip.
From the looks of him, Pastor Bayly is a candidate for several, possibly al of those things.
However, I seriously doubt he will turn those things down nor would he call them “gay”.
Still dumb, but there is a kind of dumb logic to it.
Personally, I would tolerate that kind of dumb logic from a heart-on-his-sleeve 14 year old who listened to way too much Green Day. My expectations for all-grown-up men are just a bit higher.
Dalrock
Quick, who is the mom and who is the dad in this picture:
Hah! That’s a trick question! Obviously a pair of “married” lesbians…
However, I seriously doubt he will turn those things down nor would he call them “gay”.
I agree, but he’s a different generation. To him, men going to the gym to improve their appearance, in part to attract women, is “gay”, because in his generation of men, the men who pumped iron were kinda like the village people — they were gay, because they were trying to attract men who were attracted to toned male physiques. That’s his frame of reference. It’s hopelessly outdated, of course, because he clearly doesn’t really understand how the selection criteria of women have drastically changed over the past few decades for any number of reasons, but his view of this is based on his own younger years, when men didn’t pump iron to attract women (generally … a few did but most didn’t) — he associates it with gay men because in his era that’s what gay men did to attract other gay men. It’s a generational thing, and he’s way out of touch with the current scenario (which he should be criticized for, especially since he is *advising* people in the current scenario!), but from the perspective of his own life reference experiences, it “makes sense”, unfortunately, because he hasn’t stayed current in his understanding of how men/women relationships are working.
Since we know that ‘conservatism’ is nothing more than the solidification of leftist gains after the initial leftist advance…
How long before mainstream pastorbators and cuckservatives shame men about their unwillingness to marry MtF trannies?
It is only a matter of time before cuckservatives accept an MtF as female, and their cartoonish chivalry will remain unchanged. Hence, pretty soon cuckservatives like Brad Wilcucks and Pastorbators like the ones profiled here will be quick to shame young men to ‘put a ring on it’ even if the ‘woman’ is an MtF tranny with XY chromosomes.
I say this happens no later than 2022. We know what cuckservatism really is, so no one should be surprised when a cuckservative’s ‘courageous’ stand to encourage marriage involves pressuring men to marry MtF trannies.
Does anyone think the date will be later than 2022? Before?
Damn Crackers,
I love the inversion. “Being strong, lifting weights, banging chicks is gay.” Ok.
See my comment above how the natural progression of cuckservatism will result in prominent cuckservatives pressuring men to marry MtF trannies, so that they can be ‘traditional’ and ‘masculine’.
As Brad Wilcucks would say :
“Be a man. Get Married. Put a ring on it. She identifies as female, so it is traditional.”
I cannot recall where I first ran across this, however it has predictive value:
@Anon
That’s disgusting, but I see your point. However, I disagree; I take the contrarian position that MtF tranny acceptance will not ever be fully embraced.
Several months ago, Dalrock amusingly explained how there is a “goldilocks zone” for girls’ wrestling, and I believe that a similar phenomenon could apply here. Society must be feminist/progressive enough to accept girls’ wrestling (or trannies), but not too feminist/progressive, otherwise it’s ruined. Just by conicindence, it happens to be trannies that are destroying girls’ wrestling, pushing it outside the goldilocks zone.
In the case of MtF trannies, there is already a major divide in the radical feminist movement. Hardcore feminists believe these people are still part of the evil patriarchy and could never identify with all of the struggles of true (XX chromosome) women. And they certainly don’t want competition from XY chromosome individuals for the major societal advantages feminism has enshrined for women.
So I think we’ve entered the “goldilocks zone” for tranny acceptance, and it may last only another ~10 years before subsiding. Society must be progressive enough to encourage adolescents to take puberty-blocking hormones and mutilate their genitals, but not too progressive lest all people born with XY chromosomes are “toxic” or “evil” and only genetically-tested XX individuals are eligible for the lavish benefits of being a woman.
Reading this comment a second time made me realize (again) just how messed up our society is.
Badman,
That’s disgusting, but I see your point. However, I disagree; I take the contrarian position that MtF tranny acceptance will not ever be fully embraced.
You may be underestimating how far cuckservatives will go to normalize the leftism of a few years prior. Plus, their appetite for whiteknighting is insatiable, and an MtF tranny might be just what cuckservatives find ideal for their purposes.
I don’t know. Unlike shaming men to “man up” and marry sluts/single moms, shaming them to marry MtFs doesn’t serve the Feminine Imperative, and may even work against it.
Among all the tradcon churchian pastors I’ve seen, the leftist viewpoints they’ve adopted have been overwhelmingly aligned with the Feminine Imperative. Things like excusing women’s promiscuity, embrace of no-fault divorce, rejecting Biblical submission in marriage, etc.
Leftist behaviors that aren’t directly aligned with the Feminine Imperative have seeped into these churches a little bit, but not nearly the same extent as the above. Things like husbands’ adultery (wives’ adultery is of course more often excused), cohabitation, homosexuality, drug use, etc.
I’d reckon that the next big leftist viewpoint adopted in these tradcon churches will be one that serves the Feminine Imperative, not MtF tranny marriage. Something like cuck acceptance: “So your wife of 5 years has given birth to a child that isn’t yours – MAN UP and raise that child as your own, and serve your wife as the Daughter of the King that she truly is.”
Sadly, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was already going on in some tradcon churches.
Badman,
Unlike shaming men to “man up” and marry sluts/single moms, shaming them to marry MtFs doesn’t serve the Feminine Imperative, and may even work against it.
Very true. But that does not mean cuckservatives won’t detour into this practice.
Among all the tradcon churchian pastors I’ve seen, the leftist viewpoints they’ve adopted have been overwhelmingly aligned with the Feminine Imperative.
I hope this pattern sustains. It could be equally possible that their zeal to defend ‘marriage’ steers them into not caring if the ‘woman’ is really an XX. They won’t admit that the person they are whiteknighting for is a transgender, but they get their rush from shaming a man to marry a ‘woman’.
Something like cuck acceptance: “So your wife of 5 years has given birth to a child that isn’t yours – MAN UP and raise that child as your own,
I agree that this will be much more prevalent. It is probably happening already (or they are at least discouraging men from paternity tests).
I agree that supporting cucking/non-monogamy is much more likely from cuckservatives than urging men to get with MtF trans. There is an ick factor as well, which is a part of what drives the relatively consistent levels of opposition to abortion from the same group of people, even as they embrace the rest of the FI with gusto. It seems rather unlikely to me that we will see Christian pastors, as cucked as they may be, encouraging men to get on their knees and suck a “woman’s cock” — there is a pretty strong “ick factor” among straight men for this. I’d say that it’s much more likely that they will endorse acceptance of female non-monogamy in marriage, because this is another way of shaming cuckolded men (AMOGing them really), which fits the general pattern without triggering the ick factor like homosexual sex does for straight men.
I agree that supporting cucking/non-monogamy is much more likely from cuckservatives than urging men to get with MtF trans
I agree that excusing paternity fraud will be much more common than pressuring men to marry MtF trans. But the two are not mutually exclusive by any means, and the trend we have seen from cuckservatives does not incline me to put anything past them.
I am not sure the ‘ick’ factor is enough. We already see Jim Gay-ratty desperately trying to normalize marriage to single mothers, and the notion that a higher N is a plus. That is not the same degree of ‘ick’, of course, but I don’t think we are anywhere near the limits of cuckservative normalization of leftism.
That’s about 3 years away. I think it might take a bit longer, but then again, the pace of change has been breathtaking. Of course, if any “pastor” tries to shame young men into marrying a tranny, he might find himself preaching to empty pews in short order. As others have pointed out, there is a huge ick factor involved here. A divorcee is still a woman, and so are sluts, so those are easier sells. Or as Austin Powers said in one of his movies “that’s a man!”
@Anon
I recall BluePillProfessor making a similar point a couple years ago, albeit in a much more strange and graphic way (as was his style).
I doubt cuckservatives will bend that far though. What value could manginatude have possibly had in the human psyche if it is that easily duped by M-F decoys? M-F transgenderism is probably their uncrossable line, IMO… The one aspect of feminism that even cuckservatives cannot swallow whole.
PuffyJacket,
M-F transgenderism is probably their uncrossable line, IMO… The one aspect of feminism that even cuckservatives cannot swallow whole.
I hope. Time will tell.
Note that their opposition to abortion takes the form of excusing women entirely and punishing *men* for abortions (hence the way CS laws work). I suspect cuckservatives will do a similar thing here; their opposition to transgenderism will take the form of punishing men in some form or the other.
…beating up on women, the “backbone” of the church, the ones who do 90% of the volunteering and the cookie baking and the Sunday School teaching and the bulletin printing and the cooking and cleaning and visiting the shutins and the elderly and the disabled for the church and… and… and…..
In what church would this be taking place? In most “churches” today neither sex does any of these things on a regular basis. Women, like men, are mainly Sunday morning pew-warmers, the main difference being that the women gossip and complain more than the men, posture harder, and are more self-righteously about the aforementioned things that they don’t actually do.
@Anon
I suspect cuckservatives will do a similar thing here; their opposition to transgenderism will take the form of punishing men in some form or the other.
The beauty is I don’t think they know *how* to do it. They are walking a very thin line, as per their own rules. Attacking men that transition to “female” is in a sense an attack on women too. Yet imploring men to marry and accept transgenders as female is 100% self-defeating.
Hence, they have met their (hilarious, and very appropriate) stalemate.
Cuckservatives will need to push back hard against transgenderism (and indirectly, feminism), or they will die out in the process vs. groups that do.
Also, “human” transgenderism is possibly just the first step. “Amorphous” AI will probably detect this obvious M-F loophole on its own and assume female appearance and characteristics to siphon resources in the same way.
Puffyjacket,
“Amorphous” AI will probably detect this obvious M-F loophole on its own and assume female appearance and characteristics to siphon resources in the same way.
It may in entertainment-oriented applications. Then again, it is siphoning away from real women and into the coffers of the tech company that built it.
At the same time, any AI meant for business-class applications (i.e. tasked with increasing productivity) will ruthlessly adapt around women and flag them for layoffs and automation. Google is so afraid of this that it has chosen gender-neutral pronouns to feed its AI (i.e. they have chosen to make their AI useless relative to those of competitors that want to simply deliver productivity gains to businesses) :
https://www.investing.com/news/technology-news/fearful-of-bias-google-blocks-genderbased-pronouns-from-new-ai-tool-1701035
I don’t know if anyone here can stomach listening to this, I only made it a bit over half way, but a more centrist preacher goes on a rant against men in the context of controlling anger:
The Roots Of Rage Part 1
November 27, 2018
Part 1 of 2
https://www.moodymedia.org/radio-programs/running-to-win-25/roots-rage-part-1/#.W_1RyehKjmE
Note that all the examples are of a man losing it. Women never do that of course. And always believe the abused woman, since (implied) women never make stuff up.
Hopefully the link will keep working.
AI will be another god that failed, with all the worship it is receiving. Garbage in, garbage out. It will be able to make stupid decisions faster, but don’t look to it to fix things. Errors will be coded in, even if they defy reality.
The debate about transvestites in secular forums exposes one truth: the Overton window has shifted past any debate about sodomy and homosexual “marriage.” The current “moderate” position is to accept all forms of sexual perversion as moral, and discuss the “mental health” issues that plague “transsexuals.”
during your counseling sessions,
With all due respect to Scott….”counseling” is a sham, a racket. Just another way to beat men down. Whatever your marital issues are, “counseling” as defined by this current society is guaranteed to make it worse.
Just say “no” to “counseling.”
Why do so many spend so much mental energy on trans sexual people ? They make up what ? Less than 1 percent of population. It’s Just another mental disorder.
Because embracing them is being shoved down our throats Keith.
Badman: And yet, defeat is not final for the warrior woman! She is expected to be appointed to the senate seat that will be vacated by Jon Kyl in January.
I heard a theory a few weeks ago.
Simena stole the (very close) election from McSally. The usual Democratic voter fraud. But McSally failed to contest the results, because she expected to be appointed to Kyl’s seat.
The “kick ass” McSally essentially surrendered a seat to the Democrats, because she expected to be given another seat without any effort.
It’s like a woman who is given a place on a male sports team, then doesn’t work hard to win, because she expects to be given a prize in any event.
Jeff — “Feel bad saying all this, but every church I have attended in the last 15 years has been like this. The one thing going is that I know the Pastor cares and he truly loves people and the Lord. Just has a modern thought bent on men bad, women good.”
Any pastor hewing to the Man Bad/Woman Good paradigm — and that’s the great majority of them — loves neither people nor the Lord. If he loved either, he would tell ‘his’ sheep the truth, ESPECIALLY the truths they don’t want to hear. Seeings how Jeshua IS the Truth. That’d be about the #1 requirement for spiritual authority at any level. If your pastor fails to speak truth about the rebellion of females and the rule of modern feminism, then what he ‘truly’ cares about and loves is . . . himself.
It is your responsibility, and the responsibility of other like-situated men, to depart from such fakes. If it were me, his ass would get lit up before I left, too. Remaining in his flock lends credibility and authority to a person not selected by God for his position, and thus encourages others in complicity and cowardice.
Billy S. Not so you have the authority and power to turn off the television, the radio, Mobil device , computer. You have the choice of what your children entertain them selves with. And you can also ask queers and Trans not to return to your church because they set a bad example for the youth or whatever reason you think best fits. What ever amount of power or influence the have is only what you surrender
Badman — “For that matter, what’s happened to my broader part of the country (CA, NV, AZ)? All 6 senators will be feminist women, 4 of which are childless (Harris, Cortez Masto, Sinema, McSally) and 2 of which have exactly one child each (Feinstein, Rosen). It is shocking how the West is increasingly becoming governed by childless women”
It don’t shock me, been saying it for decades. This electoral element is just the final piece of the puzzle (overt political power) but America has been a gynarchy in every way except in name for quite some time. The New World Order is the New Woman Order — see Western Europe, Cant-ada, and (un)Great Britain, if you’re still confused.
Michael punched your gut and California burned, eets a hint, and although Donald’s got his finger in the dyke, a time of trouble nears. Not the current trouble, I mean real trouble.
Artificial Intelligence sometimes reveals truth that we dare not admit. My work blocks a lot of internet sites for various reasons, that it deems to not be related to our core business. While many sites are banned for being religious, Pastor Tim Bayly’s Warhornmedia is blocked for being “entertainment-and-arts”. LOL Ain’t that the truth. And the A.I. isn’t biased or trying to insult anybody. Apparently to an unbiased machine, the content looks more like entertainment than a serious attempt to advocate Christianity.
Guys work out in the gym, then parade their obviously artificial muscles.
His understanding of exercise physiology is as bad as his understanding of Biblical gender roles.
Although I work out in my basement “gym”, not a commercial gym, my muscles are 100% real and are no doubt more fully functional, efficient, and constitute better muscle quality(not just mass) than his own. But more importantly, I’ve got enough spiritual “man-muscle” that I have the loins to publically say that men are created in God’s image and glory, to rule over their wives, who were created for them, to submit to them in everything, and I am not inclined to be ashamed of that truth before anyone.
@Keith
This is militant cluelessness.
Any pastor hewing to the Man Bad/Woman Good paradigm — and that’s the great majority of them — loves neither people nor the Lord. If he loved either, he would tell ‘his’ sheep the truth, ESPECIALLY the truths they don’t want to hear.
Yeah! I second Ray. They’re just self serving shits. False teachers, headed straight to the lake of fire. They picked “ministry” because it doesn’t involve any real work and you get devotees to your own personal cult of personality. They have no intention to teach what the Bible plainly tells us:
Women in their churches do not wear head coverings because – God can go fuck himself! Women in their churches aren’t expected to submit to their husbands because – God won’t tell their harem of women that they should really submit to their own husbands, Fucked be His name! They won’t tell frivorcing wives to return to their Christian husbands – Because marriage should be held in dishonor, it is institutionalized abuse, and Jehovah is the Father of that abuse. They won’t tell wives to submit to their husbands sexual needs – because the marriage bed needs to be treated unholy, like it is rape! And God isn’t our Father, as He says, He’s a fucking hermaphrodite with feminine attributes too, and women are in His image too, because God has a big vagina and needs to be emasculated, may our blasphemies be upon us and our children. And Women are not told to be silent in their churches, because God is a liar, women are truly God Most High and must instead be heard and obeyed, since their vaginas are the goblets of the true blood of our salvation.
Woe to the hirelings who take money given to God as their pay! Professing to teach the word of God, while being so ashamed of it, that they deny what it clearly says. Liars and thieves! The smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever. Amen!
Examine your life carefully. Don’t let the sin that so easily entangles stick to you. Condemn satanic Feminism. Pray as Daniel did, confessing the guilt of our people. Come out from among them, be ye separate! The pastors of this age are the servants of satan. Their fruit is clear to be seen. Never before has there ever been a 50% divorce rate even in the world, let alone the church.
BillyS on November 27, 2018 at 8:18 am
I rolled into that during the middle whilst tuning the ra-did-io. Just in time to hear Lutzer say, to the best of my recollection, “Ladies, if you come to us in church leadership with stories of your husband’s anger, we will believe you. WE WILL BELIEVE YOU.”
Didn’t pause long.
Keep in mind Ed Stetzer is interim IIRC at Moody in Chi-car-go. Won’t take long to research his body of work.
Stetzer is SBC and has or had a position with Lifeway Publishing.
Keith,
I was talking about progressives and their supporters in government shoving it down our throats. Some of that is unavoidable and must be actively opposed, not just ignored. Ignoring it got us where we are today.
JRob,
And he is not one of the people many here like to malign. He definitely opposes many things (Gifts of the Spirit for today, prosperity, etc.) but he still joined the White Knight Brigade. Reprehensible.
I disagree with many of his stances, but I could handle listening most of the time. This was so foolish and one-sided today that it got me to change the station. I listen to a wide variety of preaching, but this idiocy is getting me angry quite often these days. I guess getting run over by divorce with church support does that.
BillyS,
I understand your point. My opinion, perhaps pollyanna, is Pastor Lutzer and other Boomers if his ilk see everything falling apart like never before and can only approach it from one frame of reference. The Boomer narrative…man bad! I assume he means well, but like most of his contemporaries he has no clue what is actually taking place on the ground.
I would basically agree JRob, though it is not only boomers. This is why I don’t completely buy “its for the money” argument. It is for the foolishness and idiotic mindset, unfortunately for all of us.
He just started today’s show out aiming at an angry man who had been abused (women are never angry because of past abuse of course). I flipped before listening to avoid the follow-on idiocy.
JRob — “Keep in mind Ed Stetzer is interim IIRC at Moody in Chi-car-go. Won’t take long to research his body of work.”
During long stretches camping in the Cascades ten or twelve years ago, every evening I’d crank my bay-gen up for the Moody Church broadcasts. Musta been a strong signal to reach deep into those mountains.
Like so much of what’s emitted by modern ‘churches’, the Moody broadcasts were a mix. You’d get a line-up of four or five preachers with an hour slot each. Sometimes they gave profitable teachings which I’d verify in my hand-bible. But baby those sad-sacks were SO cuckified, so world-drenched, their socio-cultural biases no different than the ‘pastors’ so often profiled here. Same blind-spots, same soft voices, same fake chivalry, eets beeg biznuss.
Almost everything coming outta Chit-cago is poisoned and compromised (hi there! Michy ‘n Barack) so no surprise that the Moodies are, at best, unreliable. Get the words right but no fire in their eyes.
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